[Pages H178-H181]
From the Congressional Record Online through the Government Publishing Office [www.gpo.gov]




                              MATH ISSUES

  The SPEAKER pro tempore (Mr. Hamadeh of Arizona). Under the Speaker's 
announced policy of January 3, 2025, the Chair recognizes the gentleman 
from Texas (Mr. Roy) for 30 minutes.
  Mr. ROY. Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend from Utah for his remarks and 
all of the good stuff we have started off with as Republicans in this 
Congress and his remarks about athletics.
  I was a walk-on in college. I hope all of us might be able to work 
together to figure out how to deal with this bit of a mess that the NIL 
is creating with respect to college athletics.
  I watched significant fallout and wondered what it meant for good 
programs and coaches, like Tony Bennett at the University of Virginia 
and others, who have been raising red flags about what is happening 
with respect to the NIL. We can also figure out how to cut spending.
  Mr. Speaker, I am not here to talk about the NIL. I will save that 
for another day, notwithstanding the national championships coming up 
around the country which the University of Texas should be playing in. 
Unfortunately, they are not.
  Republicans were given the opportunity to have control of the United 
States House of Representatives, the United States Senate, and the 
White House. Come Monday, President Trump will be sworn in as the 47th 
President of the United States, and it can't come a moment too soon.
  For everybody watching what is happening to our country, what this 
current administration is doing to our border, to our national 
security, to our spending, to the state of our culture, to the rule of 
law in the streets, the use of lawfare, the abuse of power, this can't 
come fast enough for most Americans.
  The question before us right now as Republicans is whether or not we 
are going to deliver. Last time I checked, the American people did not 
send us to Washington and they did not give us the majority in the 
United States House of Representatives, the people's House, to rack up 
more deficits.
  With all due respect to my Republican colleagues, we are currently on 
track to do just that. We are projected to have a $2 trillion-deficit 
next year. As we speak, interest rates are going up, our debt is 
getting refinanced at higher interest rates, and we have more debt that 
we are going to have to finance at higher rates. That means interest is 
going up. We have a job to do right now to cut spending, cut deficits, 
and save our country for our children.
  I would wager that if I looked at the campaign materials or the 
speeches of

[[Page H179]]

every single Republican in the House of Representatives and the Senate, 
they all ran on cutting spending and balancing budgets.
  The question before this body is going to be: Will they do it?
  I need to clear the record because my name has been invoked, and that 
of a number of my friends, for standing for things that are not true. 
My name has been invoked by people in this room, by colleagues about 
what I believe and don't believe.
  Let me set the record straight right here, right now. Yes, I believe 
that we should make permanent the Trump tax cuts from 2017. I think 
that would be good for our economy. I think that would be good for the 
American people. I think that would help create more economic growth, 
and I think that economic growth would yield revenue to the Treasury.
  I believe in what people call dynamic scoring; some people in this 
town say that I do not. What I do not believe in is making up numbers. 
What I do not believe in is magic fairy dust that says the budget will 
magically balance if you cut taxes and never cut spending because that 
is simply not true.
  If I come to the floor and this Chamber is full and I ask any one of 
my colleagues to stand up and look the camera in the eye and tell their 
people back home on C-SPAN or on the news that, for example, child tax 
credits pay for themselves or changing certain rates pay for 
themselves, not one of them will stand up.
  I promise you that we are going to be facing votes on this floor this 
year to extend the tax cuts that include, for example, child tax 
credits and other tax policies that in no way, shape, or form, 
economically speaking, pay for themselves.
  We are going to be told to do that on faith, that the growth in the 
economy will magically produce revenue and cause deficits to go down. 
Nothing in our history would tell you that is true.
  How do you think we got to $36 trillion in debt? It was by refusing 
to do basic math.
  We are told we are not going to touch any kind of reforms in 
healthcare or Medicare to drive down the price of healthcare so that we 
can save Medicare from its clear insolvency, and Social Security from 
its clear insolvency. It is going to go bankrupt in, what, 8 years. So 
we are not going to talk about those things.
  What we are going to talk about, we are told, is to extend the tax 
cuts and then sit around and try to figure out how to cut other 
mandatory spending without regard to whether or not that will be 
deficit reducing.

                              {time}  1800

  I think it is really important for the American people to understand 
this: There are games being played in Washington right now to put 
pressure on people to box them in, to box Members of this body in.
  Right now, conservatives in the House Freedom Caucus are often 
maligned on the pages of publications as being the rightwing guys 
because oddly enough we believe in freedom, balanced budgets, and 
securing the border. Yes, we are the crazy ones. The House Freedom 
Caucus has proposed, put forward, a plan to raise the debt ceiling over 
$4 trillion over 2 years; fund the border at $86 billion, the request 
by the incoming administration and border czar Tom Homan; fund defense 
modernization at $200 billion plus-up, a separate fund through 
reconciliation, so we can modernize our defense and do what we need to 
do to beat China.
  What we are asking for for that is to reverse some of Biden's 
policies, which are all things that the President campaigned on. 
Reversing the EV mandate is $117 billion. Medicaid work requirements 
and SNAP work requirements are $120 billion. Undo the student loan 
bailouts, which are an unfair shift of money from the working 
population to those who took on student loans, that is 100 to $270 
billion of savings.
  Again, I want to be very clear because here is what you are going to 
hear in the coming weeks: The House Freedom Caucus refuses to do a debt 
ceiling so reasonable Republicans are going to have to go cut a deal 
with Democrats to increase the debt ceiling, increase appropriations 
over our current spending levels, including defense and nondefense, 
and, oh, by the way, give a crud ton of money to California.
  That is coming. That is coming.
  They will try to blame the Freedom Caucus and conservatives like me 
who dare say, hold on a second, maybe we shouldn't do that. Maybe we 
should come up with another path forward to actually honor our 
commitments to cut spending and reduce the size and scope of government 
while we cut taxes, secure the border, and do the things we are 
supposed to do.
  Again, we have put forward a plan. We have shared it with our 
colleagues. We have shared it with the incoming administration. We are 
making it public. That plan will increase the debt ceiling so that 
Chuck Schumer can't play games with the bond market, fund border, fund 
defense, cut some of the disastrous Biden policies to pay for those 
things the American people prioritize, and in so doing, free up defense 
to be modernized and built so that when we come to March we don't have 
to do what happens every year where defense hawks sell their souls to 
the devil to raise defense spending all driven by K Street lobbyists 
and the defense contractors in this town who define our defense policy 
so that Democrats can get increases in nondefense spending, which is an 
increase in programs, and our discretionary budget keeps going up and 
up and up and up, and you keep funding the very bureaucrats that the 
DOGE folks say they want to cut.
  I have this wild idea for these crazy conservatives in the Freedom 
Caucus that maybe, just maybe, we should change the game. Maybe, just 
maybe, we should take that money, go build our defense through 
reconciliation, level the playing field, pass either a continuing 
resolution or spending at the caps that we put in place this last year, 
hold spending frozen for the rest of this year, go do the 
appropriations process, let DOGE do its work, cut spending to pre-COVID 
levels, save about a trillion dollars over a decade, do our job to 
actually deliver on the promises that we made, give wins to the 
President of the United States, give wins to Republicans, unite the 
party, unite the country, and demonstrate that we can do our job.
  But you know why we can't? You know why we can't do that right now? 
Because the forces in this town who want nothing but tax cuts and no 
spending cuts are telling you, you can't do it. That is what is 
happening.
  The lobbyists, the people in this town, Members of Congress are 
saying that we can't cut because there is some program, there is 
something in Medicaid, there is some reason, there is some excuse, but, 
gosh, we are definitely going to go ahead and reinstate all the tax 
policies because they read in some book a long time ago that they all 
pay for themselves irrespective, by the way, of the Laffer curve or any 
commonsense economics.
  What I will say to you right now is that if any of my Republican 
colleagues want to come down to the floor and tell me that each one of 
those tax provisions pay for themselves, I want to see it. Show me that 
the child tax credits pay for themselves. I am not saying the child tax 
credits may not be decent policy. I will tell you right now I would 
love to vote on a bill right now to just eliminate the tax code and 
zero it out. Maybe we will do that before this year is over. Maybe 
everybody will have to put their money where their mouth is. Do you 
believe in taxation or not? Because if you think you can just freely 
print money and fund all the things you are too afraid to go back to 
your district and say that there is a limit on what you can spend while 
out of the other side of your mouth you talk about tax cuts, let's vote 
on a bill to zero out the tax code because if you're going to 
constantly live with $2 trillion deficits, which is where we are right 
now, why not $6 trillion? Why does it matter? That is a genuine 
question. Anybody in the complex can feel free to come down here and 
explain to me why my family, your family, my constituents' families 
should pay taxes into a system that is designed by this body to bleed 2 
trillion-plus dollars a year.
  They keep talking about tax policy that is good for economic growth. 
Okay. Yes, I agree. I support it. I started this speech by saying I 
support it, but I don't support it blindly. I don't support it without 
recognizing our responsibility and our need to cut spending. There 
ain't no free lunch. You

[[Page H180]]

can't make up math. You can't just go blame it on the CBO or blame it 
on scores. Show the American people the math, and don't go run and hide 
behind a vote on a balanced budget amendment because I promise you that 
is what my colleagues will say. They will say, oh, man, we need a 
balanced budget amendment. Do you think they would follow it? That is a 
genuine question. Pass a balanced budget amendment.

  By the way, when all the people out there on Twitter say Chip Roy is 
railing against a balanced budget amendment, I would respond, no, I am 
not. I am for a balanced budget amendment. Sign me up. I have 
cosponsored it. I will vote for it. In the odd event we pass it when it 
has whatever line it is going to have in it in an exception for 
national security, do you not believe that everything will be a 
national emergency?
  Do you believe that the insatiable appetite of your Members of 
Congress to spend money on programs will end because you inserted an 
amendment in the Constitution that says we must balance the budget? I 
can promise you every time we hit a debt ceiling, what will happen is 
we are going to raise the debt ceiling.
  The American people sent us here to actually change things. The 
American people didn't send us here to keep racking up debt. We are 
$36.3 trillion in debt. It is piling up around our ears. As my friend   
David Schweikert from Arizona points out every time he comes to the 
floor of the House, the interest is piling up. It is going up. We are 
refinancing our debt. We are paying a trillion dollars a year in 
interest, and that is about to be 1.2, about maybe 1.4. It is going to 
be $2 trillion pretty soon.
  My colleagues are running around like chickens with their heads cut 
off squawking about what they need to do on tax policy--again, a policy 
I support--but without recognizing the mathematical need to have 
spending cuts at least or more than what you think will happen with 
respect to revenue when you change the tax policy.
  The American people expect us to be adults. You cannot have your cake 
and eat it too. You cannot just go straight to the dessert of going 
home to your constituents and saying, I cut your taxes, aren't you 
proud? You can't just get on your donor calls and say, man, I really 
made sure that your corporate rates are great, and we are making sure 
your capital gains rates are great, and then not do the other side of 
the work. You have got to eat your vegetables. You have got to actually 
do the job.
  As I said, I will vote to zero out taxes. We didn't have an income 
tax for the first half of this country's existence. I think that is 
great.
  You know what else? We didn't take on every single issue in the 
Federal Government because the Constitution didn't contemplate it. Now 
we take on all the issues, and we don't pay for them. We sprinkle magic 
fairy dust around here, borrow money, print money, mortgage our kids' 
future, and pretend to be adults. I do not for the life of me believe 
that we can actually change this all in a year. This is the last 
argument I want to present, and then I am going to recognize my good 
friend from Pennsylvania.
  I said there are people out there who are saying that I don't believe 
in the dynamic impact of tax policy. That is false. I very much believe 
in the dynamic impact of tax policy. If we leave money in the hands of 
the American people and we produce revenue, we produce growth, and that 
means some additional revenue will come into the Treasury because of 
the economic growth--yes, but not all of it.
  Other people will say, well, gosh, you guys, dollar for dollar you 
want to make sure that all these cuts are going to add up to the debt 
ceiling. No, I just want some common damn sense. Just show me some 
actual cuts up front. Again, I want to reiterate, the House Freedom 
Caucus conservatives, have put forward a plan and shared it. It will 
accomplish the objectives. The media and our colleagues will say that 
they don't want to do that, they can't do that. Well, we have done it. 
We have put it forward.
  Now I want to call on my colleagues and ask them: Well, what is your 
plan? Because we have a plan, and that plan is to deliver right out of 
the gate. The President gets sworn in on Monday. Let's secure the 
border. Let's fund it. You want to have a strong national defense that 
is not woke, fund it. Do it now, and take it off the ledger in March 
when we are going to be told that we must eat more spending in 
government and California money and a $10 trillion debt ceiling 
increase.
  Let's do it right now. Let's do the hard work. Let's extend the debt 
ceiling 2 years, fund the border, fund defense, give the cuts and the 
EV mandates, put in Medicaid work requirements. These are all things 
the American people want us to do. Let's end the student loan bailouts, 
save money, end bad programs, advance good programs. Let's secure our 
country, help the President, give him wins, give the American people 
wins, give us a chance to actually freeze spending in March and in 
September to stop the growth of the bureaucracy. Let's give Elon and 
Vivek and DOGE the ability to do what they want to do, which is cut the 
bureaucracy, which they can't do if we keep funding it.
  We can do that, but if my colleagues are going to insist on putting 
us in a box and telling the world because Chip says, you know what, I 
think we should put everything on the table, all taxes, until we make 
sure we are getting enough cuts with respect to the tax policy, and 
then they have the audacity to go out and say, Chip won't vote for a 
bill unless there is a corporate tax increase. That is a lie. Anybody 
who says that is a liar because that is not what I am saying. Anybody 
who says I don't believe in dynamic scoring is lying. That is the 
truth.
  What I want to do is make sure we save our country. What I don't want 
to do is play games. Unfortunately, all too often too many of my 
colleagues want to play games.
  Mr. Speaker, I yield to the gentleman from Pennsylvania (Mr. Perry).

                              {time}  1815

  Mr. PERRY. Mr. Speaker, I thank the gentleman from Texas for 
yielding.
  I am happy to join him, and I am happy to join him in what I think he 
is saying, which is what I am saying. I am saying yes to fulfilling the 
President's agenda and mandate to secure the border, yes to the 
President's agenda and mandate to strengthen our military, and yes to 
the President's agenda and mandate to reduce the cost-of-living and 
inflationary pressures that printing--creating out of whole cloth, out 
of nothing--money floating around in the economy making every single 
good, service, and purchase more expensive.
  I say yes to fixing all that. As one of the people who, like Chip, is 
often maligned and people characterize us as part of the no caucus, we 
are here saying yes. Yes, we want to fix it.
  We don't want to increase the debt limit, but we understand that we 
have to pay the Nation's bills. So, all we are saying is that as long 
as there is a plan to stop increasing the ever-increasing debt, then we 
can be on board, and we have a plan.
  We have offered a plan, and we can be onboard with that to not let 
Chuck Schumer decide what the cost of increasing the debt ceiling is 
going to be and not force the American people to keep on paying for 
things that this government shouldn't be buying and can't afford, that 
taxpayers can't afford.
  We want to do this. We are here to say yes and here to save our 
country, but we are not signing up for fake savings and spending: If 
you raise the debt ceiling, then we will make sure we grow our way out 
of it by projecting 3.5 or 4 percent growth for the next 10 years.
  Let's quit fooling ourselves. That is not going to happen. We 
absolutely want to say yes to making sure that the American people 
continue to enjoy the tax cuts that we gave them, that we got, that we 
secured, and that we fought for during the first Trump administration. 
We want to continue that. We want to secure that.
  We wish we could have done that then, but since that time, the Biden 
administration has increased spending by $6 trillion. Somehow, 
something has to give.
  Mr. Speaker, look at the recent bond market sales. Interest rates are 
going up. My good friend from Texas already mentioned the fact that 
every time it goes up 100 basis points, it increases the cost of the 
debt that we have to

[[Page H181]]

pay for. We pay for it here by creating money that doesn't exist 
digitally. We can't even print it fast enough.
  We get nothing for it. All we are paying for is interest on the debt. 
We don't get any new government programs, and we don't get any new and 
better military programs. We don't get anything for it. It is just debt 
and interest payments that we are paying for things that we bought in 
the past.
  All that we are saying is, look, if you have a better plan than we 
do, God bless it. Let's see it, and let's see the real cuts.
  Like I said, I am with Chip. We want to pay for the border and our 
military, and we want to use things like EV mandates to pay for that 
stuff.
  As far as student loan giveaways that aren't constitutional, which 
the Biden administration is offering, we are saying, look, let's 
repurpose that money for things that we do need to pay for, like the 
border and the military.
  Let's have some reasonable cuts. Let's increase the debt ceiling as 
necessary, but only as necessary. We are not even asking for dollar for 
dollar on the debt ceiling.
  If you have something better and more reasonable, I am standing here, 
so let's see it.
  The clock is ticking. The President is inaugurated in a couple of 
days here. We are supposed to be after this, and here we stand.
  As far as I know, with all due respect to everybody in the Chamber, 
the only plan I have seen is the one we have offered.
  We stand ready to save our country in any way that we can, but the 
clock is ticking, Mr. Speaker.
  Mr. ROY. Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend from Pennsylvania for his 
remarks.
  Mr. Speaker, he is right. The clock is ticking. We can't let another 
legislative day go and another legislative day go in which we don't 
deliver. The American people expect us to deliver.
  We can and will deliver tax policy that is progrowth and that extends 
what we did in 2017. We will deliver spending cuts if we get in the 
room and work, but it is going to take time.
  It is going to take time to undo the damage of the Biden 
administration and for us to go through everything that we need to go 
through to identify the cuts that we can all work through, but we will 
do it if we have the willpower to do it and if we can do math and 
understand that we need deficits to go down.
  What we are saying is, let's deliver right now. Do not risk border 
security by pushing it off months into the future.
  Mr. PERRY. Right now, while we are talking about it, there are 
criminal aliens convicted of murder in their country, some more than 
one time, walking around our country. They are going to stay here until 
we can deport them, and we are not offering the money to the incoming 
administration to do that work.
  Mr. ROY. We could do that right now if the House would act. Right 
now, pass the budget, pass the instructions, and do exactly what we 
just laid out. Do the debt ceiling increase, do the funding for the 
border, and give it to Tom Homan tomorrow.
  In a matter of 1 or 2 weeks, we can get that out of this Chamber and 
over to the Senate. By February, they would have money for defense, 
money for the border and a fence, and a debt ceiling that is gone.
  We would have undone some of the worst Biden policies and paid for 
all of it. That is precisely what the American people sent us here to 
do.
  Instead, this Chamber currently is locked in a cycle of talking about 
what we might do. We have to move for the American people. That is why 
we put forward an approach that we believe will work.

  It is really important--really important--for the American people to 
understand that what is happening in this town is that games are being 
played by people who want to try to leverage those of us who want to 
cut spending. That is the bottom line.
  I am speaking for myself right here. There are some of my colleagues 
who want to attach the border funding to the bills that we are moving 
forward without--they don't believe that we will get to the spending 
cuts that will make those of us who believe we need deficits to go down 
happy. They want to try to force us to eat increased deficits in order 
to achieve the border security funding.
  I don't think we should play games with the border security. I don't 
think we should play games with defense. I don't think we should play 
games with getting the debt ceiling cleared off without giving more 
power to Chuck Schumer and Democrats to mess with us in March.
  We can win across the board if we adopt this plan, and I would 
strongly recommend that we move forward with this plan so that we can 
deliver for the President and deliver for the American people.
  Mr. PERRY. Mr. Speaker, I agree with the gentleman from Texas. We 
don't have much time to do this. While we talk and talk, we have also 
been given a mandate for transformational change.
  To my good friend from Texas, transformational change doesn't include 
doing the same thing we always do around here, which is cram a bunch of 
garbage into one big bill, put one thing in that somebody has to have, 
that we have to have it, which is border security, and say: Suck down 
all that garbage for the one thing that you need and force the American 
people to do it, too.
  We don't have to accept bad choices for the one thing that we need. 
We can have all good choices.
  Mr. ROY. Mr. Speaker, I would remind people that what happened before 
Christmas was precisely that, trying to cram down a bunch of stuff in a 
big bill, and it met with resounding failure.
  Let's not do that. Let's make the 119th Congress be about success, 
delivering on the President's agenda and on the Republican agenda, the 
agenda we ran on, and, most importantly, delivering for our kids and 
grandkids a world in which they can actually live free from worrying 
about China, free from worrying about debt, and free from worrying 
about open borders and criminals on the streets.
  Mr. Speaker, I thank my friend from Pennsylvania for his remarks, and 
I yield back the balance of my time.

                          ____________________