[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                         UNRWA EXPOSED: EXAMINING THE 
                         AGENCY'S MISSION AND FAILURES

=======================================================================

                             JOINT HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

              SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                                  AND

                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON GLOBAL HEALTH, GLOBAL
             HUMAN RIGHTS, AND INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                            January 30, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-78

                               __________

        Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
        
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Available: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://docs.house.gov, 
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                                __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
56-989PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2024                    
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------                          
                     COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                   MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Chairman

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey     GREGORY MEEKS, New York, Ranking 
JOE WILSON, South Carolina               Member
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania            BRAD SHERMAN, California
DARRELL ISSA, California             GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
ANN WAGNER, Missouri                 WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
BRIAN MAST, Florida                  AMI BERA, California
KEN BUCK, Colorado                   JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee              DINA TITUS, Nevada
MARK E. GREEN, Tennessee             TED LIEU, California
ANDY BARR, Kentucky                  SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
RONNY JACKSON, Texas                 DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
YOUNG KIM, California                COLIN ALLRED, Texas
MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida        ANDY KIM, New Jersey
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan              SARA JACOBS, California
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
    American Samoa                   SHEILA CHERFILUS-McCORMICK, 
FRENCH HILL, Arkansas                    Florida
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                GREG STANTON, Arizona
JIM BAIRD, Indiana                   MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida               JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
THOMAS KEAN, JR., New Jersey         JONATHAN JACKSON, Illinois
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York             SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
CORY MILLS, Florida                  JIM COSTA, California
RICH MCCORMICK, Georgia              JASON CROW, Colorado
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               GABE AMO, Rhode Island
JOHN JAMES, Michigan                 BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas

                Brendan Shields, Majority Staff Director

                Sophia Lafargue, Minority Staff Director
                                 ------                                

              Subcommittee on Oversight and Accountability

                       BRIAN MAST, Florida, Chair

SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania            JASON CROW, Colorado, Ranking 
DARRELL ISSA, California                 Member
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee              DINA TITUS, Nevada
FRENCH HILL, Arkansas                COLIN ALLRED, Texas
MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida               ANDY KIM, New Jersey
CORY MILLS, Florida                  SHEILA CHERFILUS-McCORMICK, 
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas                   Florida
                                     MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
              Parker Chapman, Subcommittee Staff Director
 Subcommittee on Global Health, Global Human Rights and International 
                             Organizations

                  CHRISTOPHER SMITH, New Jersey, Chair

MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida        SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania, Ranking 
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,           Member
    American Samoa                   AMI BERA, California
FRENCH HILL, Arkansas                SARA JACOBS, California
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia              KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
JOHN JAMES, Michigan
                       Mary Vigil, Staff Director
                         
                         
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                               WITNESSES

Goldberg, Richard, Senior Advisor, Foundation for Defense of 
  Democracies....................................................    10
Sheff, Marcus, Chief Executive Officer, Impact-SE................    21
Neuer, Hillel, Executive Director, U.N. Watch....................    33
Rudman, Mara, Schlesinger Professor, University of Virginia 
  Miller Center..................................................    41

                                APPENDIX

Hearing Notice...................................................    83
Hearing Minutes..................................................    85
Hearing Attendance...............................................    86

                   MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Materials submitted for the record from William Deere............    87

            RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Responses to questions submitted for the record..................    91

 
       UNRWA EXPOSED: EXAMINING THE AGENCY'S MISSION AND FAILURES

                       Tuesday, January 30, 2024

                          House of Representatives,
                      Subcommittee on Oversight and
                                    Accountability,
                             joint with the
                     Subcommittee on Global Health,
             Global Human Rights, and International
                                     Organizations,
                      Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The subcommittees met, pursuant to notice, at 2:20 p.m., in 
room 210, House Visitor Center, Hon. Brian Mast [chairman of 
the Subcommittee on Oversight and Accountability] presiding.
    Mr. Mast. The Subcommittee on Oversight and Accountability 
and Subcommittee on Global Health, Global Human Rights, and 
International Organizations will come to order.
    The purpose of this hearing is to examine the United 
Nations Relief and Works Agency's priorities and operations as 
it pertains to the United States foreign assistance standards, 
and I now recognize myself for an opening statement.
    This hearing is entitled ``UNRWA Exposed: Examining the 
Agency's Mission and Failures.'' This hearing will take a 
closer look into the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for 
Palestine refugees--or UNRWA--and address serious concerns 
raised regarding the U.N. agency and its policies funded by the 
American taxpayer.
    The world was horrified when the Hamas terrorists with the 
support of other Palestinian men, women, and children raided 
houses, kibbutz, schools, concerts and kindergartens to kill, 
capture, rape, or torture any Jew that they could find on 
October 7th.
    As the dust settles and as we put together the pieces of 
what enabled such barbaric atrocities, we are getting a picture 
of failed U.N. policies that have been accumulating for the 
last seven decades in the Gaza Strip.
    I want to pause for a moment and say that, thankfully, at 
least in part it appears that the Biden Administration has 
realized the folly of funding UNRWA. I'm concerned the 
Administration is playing a shell game with us, however.
    While the Biden Administration announced on January 26th 
that it would return to President Trump's policy of not funding 
UNRWA for a period of time, it does appear as though they may 
have waited to make this announcement until after they allowed 
for a disbursement of tens of millions of dollars to go out to 
UNRWA, on or before January 24th, and if that's the case it 
should be considered outrageous.
    Let me be clear that we are examining UNRWA because the 
agency directly and indirectly supported Hamas and other 
terrorist organizations in multiple, different ways.
    First of all, UNRWA takes the talking points from Hamas and 
broadcasts them to the world. When all of the so-called 
journalists took the lie that Israel bombed the Al-Ahli 
Hospital, UNRWA, an official U.N. agency, pulled the casualty 
number from the Hamas-run Gaza health ministry.
    In fact, to this day UNRWA continues to parrot the numbers 
put out by the Hamas affiliates without taking a single grain 
of salt on who puts them out in the first place.
    Second, wherever you see UNRWA facilities including schools 
in Gaza you are almost guaranteed to find tunnels, rocket 
launchers, and weapons storages. During Israel's incursion into 
Gaza Israel Defense Forces uncovered a variety of rifles and 
ammunition hidden underneath UNRWA institutions.
    If you think those are just a coincidence this brings me to 
another point. UNRWA employees are actively involved in calling 
to wipe out the only Jewish homeland on Earth.
    We have seen footage and evidence of UNRWA teachers and 
staff praising and celebrating the October 7th attack on social 
media, referring to the attack as an unforgettable glorious 
morning and a splendid sight.
    We read reports that at least 12 UNRWA employees directly 
participated in the attack. Let me say that one more time. We 
read reports that at least 12 UNRWA employees directly 
participated in the attack.
    In fact, intelligence reports indicate that as many as 10 
percent of UNRWA workers have direct links to Hamas and 
Palestinian Islamic jihadists. While all of these are taking 
place what does UNRWA not do?
    You can go to UNRWA's very active X, formerly known as 
Twitter, and find little to no mention of Hamas. Not a single 
word of Hamas stealing U.S. taxpayer-funded food, medicine, or 
fuel. Not a single statement to condemn Hamas for the hostages 
it continues to hold. Not a single mention of how Hamas has 
created the devastating situation for the people of Gaza.
    It is clear that UNRWA would never use its platform to 
speak out against Hamas because it is in cahoots with Hamas. At 
this point, you could say that when UNRWA schools are not 
teaching the Palestinian children to hate Jews these schools 
are used to hide and fire rockets at Israeli civilians, all 
using our tax dollars.
    Make no mistake, the attacks on October 7th did not happen 
in a vacuum. The sickness on display from UNRWA is rooted in 
something deeper within its structure and mission. It's rooted 
in the double standard the world applies for them, from their 
definition of refugee to the hatred they teach the Palestinian 
children from UNRWA schools.
    The barbaric hatred that we see from Hamas as they 
butchered, raped Jews on October 7th is in part the result of a 
Frankensteinian monster of the United Nations' agency that the 
United Nations created and the United States remains the top 
donor of that agency.
    The American people deserve to know why their tax money 
enabled the deadliest attack on the Jewish people since the 
Holocaust. Again, most of this is not new information. Many 
watchdog organizations have been warning us about UNRWA for 
years and some of them are represented by our witnesses.
    I am grateful for their attendance and for their bringing 
us their essential insight so that we could try to change the 
field, the paradigm on the ground, that has been taking place 
with the American taxpayers' dime.
    With that, I'd now like to recognize Ranking Member Susan 
Wild for as much time as you may need.
    Ms. Wild. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    The developments that we have learned about in the past few 
days are horrific. The fact that 12 UNRWA employees out of 
13,000 staff members in Gaza were implicated in the October 7th 
massacres is deeply disturbing and it only underscores the 
already clear need for reform.
    But the question we face right now is how do we ensure that 
the innocent civilian population of Gaza, that is facing 
famine, does not pay an even steeper price in human life 
because of the actions of 12 horrific individuals and their 
actions.
    We know that for the civilian population in Gaza UNRWA 
services have been a lifeline. Regardless of what one thinks 
about UNRWA, its mission, or the many well documented examples 
of its dysfunction, the facts on the ground right now are 
indisputable.
    It is the only entity on the ground with the systems and 
the personnel and the capacity to deliver what little relief 
there is for the people of Gaza. We're talking about shelters 
for more than a million people, emergency food delivery, and 
urgently needed health services.
    We know that 87 percent of the Gaza population is now 
estimated to rely on UNRWA services. But having said that, we 
also know that the events of the past days have created an 
unprecedented crisis of credibility for UNRWA and we have to 
recognize that.
    It serves as a potent reminder of the entrenched and long-
standing flaws of both the organization's functioning and its 
mandate and I do believe that the Administration was absolutely 
correct in pausing the funding and keep in mind, please, that 
it's not just the United States that has done this but a number 
of other countries as well.
    But we have to have oversight and we have to be vigilant. 
In short, what I believe is that we have to see a change in 
UNRWA that reflects the gravity of what took place. Over the 
medium term the need for major organizational reform is clear.
    We have to prioritize reorganizing and restructuring aid 
for Palestinians in a way that better serves the needs of the 
innocent civilian people but that also makes sure that the 
safety and security of the citizens of Israel is not affected, 
is not jeopardized by the fact that we are funding this 
humanitarian aid.
    And so I do not have a perfect answer. I am hoping that as 
I sit here listening to the testimony, and listening to the 
members, that we will hear some constructive solutions free of 
politics that really will address this very important need for 
reform that we have, but that at the same time is cognizant of 
the fact that there are innocent civilians that are suffering, 
that are facing famine, and that who unfortunately have Hamas 
as their government.
    And with that, I will yield back and just say that I hope 
we can all come together and find some sort of meaningful and 
constructive solutions for this.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Ranking Member Wild.
    The chair now recognizes the chairman of the Subcommittee 
on Global Health, Global Human Rights, and International 
Organizations, the chair--the Congressman from New Jersey Mr. 
Smith for his opening statement.
    Mr. Smith. Thank you very much, Chairman Mast.
    First of all, let me thank you that we are doing this joint 
hearing, bringing further focus and hopefully resolution--some 
resolution--the beginning resolutions to this horrific problem.
    Public pressure motivated by explosive new evidence that 
UNRWA employees were directly involved in the October 7th Hamas 
terrorist attack on Israel, the Biden Administration last 
Friday, as we know, announced that it was, quote, ``temporarily 
paused additional funding for UNRWA while it reviews the 
evidence.''
    With all due respect to the President, this was a long 
overdue response. Going far beyond the revelations of last 
week, however, there has been a long--massive and irrefutable 
evidence of UNRWA's extensive complicity and cooperation in 
Hamas' anti-Semitic genocidal hate campaign. Like the Nazis 
before them, Hamas and their chief terrorism sponsor Iran they 
are committing genocide against the Jews.
    As many of you know and many of my colleagues have read and 
maybe some recently, the 1988 Hamas charter demands the 
absolute destruction of the State of Israel and proclaims, 
quote, ``Israel will exist and will continue to exist until 
Islam obliterates it.''
    Article 7 of the Hamas charter demands the slaughter of all 
Jews. Quote, ``The day of judgment will not come until Muslims 
fight Jews and kill them. Then the Jews will hide behind rocks 
and trees and the rocks and trees will cry out, 'Oh Muslim, 
there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him,' '' close 
quote.
    Article 13 of the 1988 charter of Hamas explicitly rejects 
initiatives for peace and reconciliation and states, quote, 
``Initiatives in so-called peaceful solutions and international 
conferences are in contradiction to the principle of the 
Islamic resistance movement.''
    In its 2017 charter, building on the first one, Hamas 
reiterates its goal of wiping Israel off the face of the earth. 
It says, quote, ``There is no alternative to a fully sovereign 
Palestinian State on the entire national Palestinian soil with 
Jerusalem as its capital,'' close quote.
    In 2018 President Trump suspended all U.S. funding to UNRWA 
and they survived without the 30 percent of their budget the 
U.S. typically provides.
    But tragically in 2021 the Biden Administration resumed 
lavish support from UNRWA without reform. The U.S. Government 
has donated more than $1 billion to UNRWA since 2021.
    In Fiscal Year 2022 U.S. taxpayers gave UNRWA $364 million, 
in 1923 $344 million, and in Fiscal Year 1924 the U.S. is on 
track to provide $371 million.
    But the Administration has failed to provide clarity about 
how much of this funding is affected by the pause announced on 
January 26th.
    Yesterday, joined by Chairman Mast and Chairman Wilson, we 
introduced H.R. 7122, legislation to prohibit--to prohibit our 
government from making any voluntary or involuntary 
contributions to UNRWA.
    A good deal of the evidence of UNRWA's involvement with 
Hamas and other terrorist groups as well as educating children 
toward terrorism--that is, poisoning their minds--has been 
presented publicly at hearings including two that I had chaired 
during the last 8 months.
    Those two hearings, one was on June 22d and a second on 
November 8th, and we heard from some of the witnesses including 
Hillel Neuer who's here today, and the information is 
absolutely devastating how these children--how these children--
how these children from the earliest days of their lives are 
trained in hate for Jews and for Americans.
    Now we have heard how UNRWA's textbooks, curricula, summer 
camps, and official media are all infamous incubators of hate 
and we have seen the evidence of its teachers Administrations' 
involvement in--with Hamas.
    They do not make their case. As you can see, the hatred 
coming out of that particular man is so sad.
    UNRWA, the U.N. Relief and Works Agency, was set up as we 
know in 1949 to provide aid relief to refugees. Seventy-five 
years later it's still going which is absurd, in a way, since 
nearby Arab nations will not permit the former to integrate 
into their societies.
    UNRWA provides education in hatred of Jews for the vastly 
expanded number of children, grandchildren, and great 
grandchildren of the original refugees. UNRWA's textbooks--and 
I've had meeting after meeting on this including hearings where 
we have actually read through the textbooks filled to 
overflowing with anti-Semitic hatred.
    This is all--you know, this is serious. Aspects of its 
anti-Semitism is so twisted I won't describe all of them here. 
But they talk about martyrdom, suicide bombers, to children.
    A new report by the U.N. Watch carefully documents, quote, 
``how UNRWA teachers in a 300-member UNRWA staff Telegram group 
cheered and celebrated Hamas' October 7th massacre'' while at 
the same time they were asking about their salaries--when are 
they going to get paid.
    The UNRWA staff in the group shared photos and video 
footage of those events and prayed for the terrorists' success 
and for Israel's destruction, in clear violation of U.N. rules. 
Thank you, Hillel, for being here today, for testifying about 
this.
    Similarly, IMPACT-se has recently published three reports 
analyzing, quote, ``hundreds of pages''--hundreds of pages of 
teaching materials revealing that content glorifying terrorism, 
inciting violence, and promoting anti-Semitism is actually 
included in UNRWA's own materials created by UNRWA staff for 
UNRWA students. Thank you, Mr. Sheff, for joining us to bear 
witness to that ugly, ugly truth.
    And Mr. Goldberg has pointed out UNRWA does not recognize 
Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, or the PFLP as terrorist 
groups.
    Does not submit staff, contractors, or beneficiaries for 
U.S. counterterrorism vetting. It indoctrinates generation 
after generation to hate Jews, to hate Israel, and prepare for 
genocide. For UNRWA terror finance is a feature, he points out, 
``not a bug,'' close quote.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Smith. The chair now recognizes 
Mr. Crow for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Crow. Thank you, Chairman Mast, and thank you to our 
witnesses for being here today.
    The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine 
Refugees in the Near East, or UNRWA, was established in 1949 
with a mandate to provide humanitarian assistance and 
protection to registered Palestinian refugees.
    In carrying out this mandate UNRWA has provided 
humanitarian assistance including food, shelter, and medical 
care in five areas including the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Jordan, 
Lebanon, and Syria.
    Thousands of UNRWA staff continue to go to work today amid 
very dangerous conditions to provide medical care, drive 
trucks, distribute aid and play an essential coordinating role 
with aid organizations like the World Food Programme and 
Israeli security authorities.
    Now, I am also deeply troubled by the allegations made last 
week about the 12 UNRWA employees that may have been involved 
in the horrific October 7th terrorist attack and I echo the 
concerns of many, and I echo Secretary Blinken's concerns and 
sharing my support for a swift and thorough investigation and 
the need for absolute accountability for any participants in 
that attack.
    But we also have to understand that humanitarian aid in 
conflict zones must continue and it's difficult under the best 
of circumstances, and we know that conditions in Gaza are far 
from that.
    Over 150 UNRWA staff members are among the over 25,000 
Palestinians killed in Gaza in recent months. They are among 
those wake each day with famine on the horizon and impossible 
conditions around every corner.
    UNRWA's humanitarian assistance is a lifeline to over 2 
million Palestinians in Gaza who are sorely in need of that aid 
and this is an organization largely reliant on voluntary 
contributions and financial peril from month to month, and one 
already facing a financial shortfall of hundreds of millions of 
dollars.
    It is also a lifeline to 3 million Palestinians living in 
Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. So if aid is cut or UNRWA is 
abandoned without a replacement or a different organization to 
fill that role, security in the region is further imperiled and 
the burdens are then shifted onto other regional actors 
including some of our allies.
    The complexity of this situation cannot be overstated. But 
my experience in combat zones and my understanding of our 
Nation's 20 years of war in the Middle East have made it clear 
to me that conditions in which people are starving, fearful, or 
hopeless do not breed peace and they will not bring security to 
Israel or to the broader region. People's basic needs must be 
met.
    So I have very deep concerns about the shift in funding and 
the halting of funding. I have very real concerns about the 
security impact and the moral implications if we do not find 
quickly a way to resume some funding and allow that aid to move 
forward expeditiously.
    The horrifying and inexcusable actions of, roughly, a dozen 
people should not speak for the over 13,000 UNRWA employees in 
Gaza alone.
    It is possible to acknowledge the lifesaving nature of 
assistance that UNRWA provides and the importance of ensuring 
that humanitarian assistance reaches the people of Gaza without 
diversion or use/misuse by Hamas or other nefarious actors.
    Now, this is not to understate the very real challenges and 
concerns about the integrity of UNRWA that have been raised by 
my colleagues and others and the need for substantial reform or 
to find a follow-on successor organization to fulfill the 
functions.
    What I'm trying to say here is that these needs and these 
functions must continue whether it's under UNRWA or some other 
organization and that all of our collective interests in 
security are undermined if we do not do that, and that has both 
short-term and long-term implications.
    So let's have a discussion today about how we achieve that, 
what the very real concerns that we all have, how they should 
be met, and how we can get that done in everyone's interests 
because--let me finish with this--we cannot stop the delivery 
of aid and the support of an organization that is essential to 
the livelihood of about 2 million Palestinian people and I will 
continue to be a vocal advocate to make sure that we figure out 
a way forward here.
    Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Ranking Member Crow.
    I now ask unanimous consent that the following members be 
allowed to sit on the dais and participate in today's hearing: 
the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Murphy. Without 
objection, so ordered.
    I'm now going to recognize Ranking Member Smith for the 
introduction of our panel today. Mr. Smith, you're recognized.
    Mr. Smith. Thank you very much.
    And let me first begin with our first witness, Richard 
Goldberg, who is a senior advisor at the Foundation for the 
Defense of Democracies.
    He previously served as deputy chief of staff and senior 
foreign policy advisor to former U.S. Senator Mark Kirk, who 
not only was our chief counsel once on this committee, went on 
to become a distinguished U.S. senator.
    He was also chief of staff for the Illinois Governor Bruce 
Rauner, and director for Countering Iranian Terrorism Weapons 
of Mass Destruction on the White House National Security 
Council. He was sanctioned personally by Iran in 2020.
    Next we'll hear from Marcus Sheff who is the CEO of the 
Institute for Monitoring Peace and Cultural Tolerance in School 
Education, or IMPACT-se, a research and policy nonprofit that 
analyzes textbooks, employing standards on peace and tolerance 
as derived from UNESCO's declarations and resolutions and 
presents recommendations to governments, ministries of 
education, and to policymakers.
    Then we'll hear from Hillel Neuer who is the executive 
director of U.N. Watch, a human rights NGO in Geneva, 
Switzerland.
    He's an international lawyer, writer, acclaimed speaker, 
human rights activist, and matter of fact since 2009 Mr. Neuer 
has headed a coalition of 25 human rights groups as chair of 
the annual Geneva Summit for Human Rights and Democracy, a 
renowned international gathering that provides a global 
platform for courageous pro-democracy dissidents from around 
the world.
    Last and--but certainly not least we welcome Ms. Laura 
Rudman, who is the James R. Schlesinger Distinguished Professor 
at the Miller Center at the University of Virginia, and welcome 
her and her testimony and expertise to the committee.
    So if we could go to Mr. Goldberg as our first witness.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Ranking Member Smith. I think you 
meant Mara. We all make--I think I had the wrong one on my 
paper as well.
    But we now recognize Mr. Goldberg for his opening 
statement.

 STATEMENT OF RICHARD GOLDBERG, SENIOR ADVISOR, FOUNDATION FOR 
                     DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES

    Mr. Goldberg. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Members, all members of 
the committees, thank you so much for holding this very 
important hearing at this time.
    I have worked on oversight of our foreign assistance 
including to UNRWA for about 20 years now and let me just tell 
you something.
    UNRWA is a horror show that is decades in the making, co-
produced by the United States taxpayer. A lot of people woke up 
and read the Wall Street Journal and other reports and were 
shocked to hear that 12 employees of UNRWA participated in the 
October 7th massacre, that 10 percent or more of its staff in 
Gaza may be affiliated with terrorist organizations and even 
more of them have some family members that are affiliates as 
well.
    I wasn't shocked. Many members of this committee who have 
worked on UNRWA reform for years weren't shocked. Terrorism 
support and subsidy for UNRWA is a feature, not a bug.
    The organization is built from its core mission, its 
mandate, to indoctrinate generation after generation to hate 
Jews, to destroy Israel, to be ready to manifest themselves as 
those that will come to wipe the Jews into the Mediterranean 
Sea, to fulfill the mission that was outlined in 1948 by Arab 
armies, never fulfilled.
    But UNRWA established back then with a mandate to have the 
political manifestation--the political warfare arm--to get 
ready to fulfill that military mission, and decade after decade 
pumping kids to hate through their schools, never recognizing 
U.S. designated foreign terrorist organizations as terrorist 
organizations.
    When you have a conversation with an UNRWA official and you 
say, is it possible your aid is going to Hamas--is it possible 
families that are receiving cash assistance in your program are 
affiliated with designated foreign terrorist organizations--is 
it possible your staff are affiliated with these groups the 
answer is, of course, these are political labels to UNRWA.
    These aren't terrorist groups. These are political 
movements so why would they want to discriminate based on 
political persuasion?
    And to a United States citizen and I would say to our 
allies around the world that is, in fact, horrific, disgusting, 
and part of the reason we sit here today.
    Now, when you look at the incitement to violence that has 
gone on for decades, the internalization in generation after 
generation to rise up and believe they are refugees waiting to 
come back to what is today Israel, to drive the Jews into the 
sea, October 7th is the logical conclusion of UNRWA.
    It is, of course, what they have been training generations 
to do with the resources we have provided going to these 
terrorist organizations to help carry out that mission.
    We're focused on UNRWA in Gaza today because that's where 
the news is. Follow the news elsewhere where UNRWA operates. In 
the West Bank, the IDF is conducting daily operations today 
against terror cells in UNRWA facilities and UNRWA areas.
    In Lebanon in the largest refugee camp in Lebanon there 
have been months of terrorist battles. There's no Israeli 
presence there. Anywhere UNRWA goes terrorism follows. We have 
documented this for years.
    Now, you hear a lot of people saying, well, we cannot 
cutoff food--we cannot cutoff aid--we cannot leave people 
starving. That's true. That's correct. Nobody is calling for 
that.
    If only we had another organization that was built to help 
refugees around the world and internally displaced persons 
around the world. We should think of such an organization. Oh, 
that's right. It exists, the U.N. High Commissioner for 
Refugees.
    If only we had an organization built to distribute food 
aid. That's right, we give them billions of dollars. It's 
called the World Food Programme.
    If only there was an organization for children and for 
schools and education and for health care. They're all 
available. It's an alphabet soup.
    The only reason to remain dedicated to supporting the 
terror, financing, incitement promoting, genocide promoting 
UNRWA is to help UNRWA keep Hamas in power in Gaza, promote 
terrorism incitement against Israel, and maintain a mandate 
that the region has moved on from and that is to hate Israel, 
destroy Israel.
    The Arab armies that failed in 1948, that set up UNRWA as a 
political weapon, have moved on. They've made peace with 
Israel. UNRWA hasn't.
    UNRWA is the problem. UNRWA is a part of what happened on 
October 7th and it will keep happening again and again if we 
keep funding it.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Goldberg follows:]

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    Mr. Mast. I want to thank you, Mr. Goldberg.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. Sheff for his opening 
statement.

 STATEMENT OF MARCUS SHEFF, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, IMPACT-SE

    Mr. Sheff. Chairman Smith, Chairman Mast, Ranking Member 
Wild, Ranking Member Crow, members of committee, thank you.
    On October 7th terrorists breached Gaza's border with 
Israel. The result was catastrophic. They raped children, 
women, and men, burned families alive, beheaded and murdered. 
They abducted babies and the elderly. A hundred and thirty-two 
are still being held in dungeons in Gaza and we know UNRWA----
    Mr. Mast. The gentleman will suspend for a moment.
    [Pause.]
    Mr. Mast. The gentleman will resume.
    Mr. Sheff. Thank you, sir.
    We know that UNRWA employees took part in this massacre. 
But these were not a few bad apples. Rather, the institutional 
barrel is rotten.
    How do we know? We know by researching UNRWA's educational 
infrastructure. In it textbooks teach that Jews are liars and 
fraudsters who spread corruption which will lead to their 
annihilation.
    Students are taught about cutting the necks of the enemy, 
that a fiery massacre of Jews on a bus is celebrated as a 
barbecue party, that Dalal Mughrabi who murdered 38 people and 
13 children is a role model.
    UNRWA educates that dying is preferable to living, that 
becoming a martyr will be rewarded in heaven. First graders are 
taught the alphabet by learning the words for attack and martyr 
and fourth graders are taught addition by counting martyrs.
    These are just a handful of examples of incitement which 
runs like a thread, a strategy, throughout the Palestinian 
curriculum which is taught in UNRWA schools and our research 
shows the same violent jihadi educational materials are created 
on a large institutional level by UNRWA staff.
    One of our reports confirms that at least 100 Hamas members 
who carried out terror attacks in the past were educated, 
celebrated by being part of the UNRWA system and the stark 
truth given that over half the schools in Gaza are UNRWA run is 
that the majority of the October 7th terrorists are more likely 
than not to have been UNRWA school graduates.
    And make no mistake, the terrorists' barbarity is cheered 
by UNRWA teachers. Another of our reports reveals dozens 
celebrated the massacre on social media.
    These extremist views go way beyond a handful of 
individuals. Rather, they are endemic to the institution. UNRWA 
staff were previously found to be extremists from school 
principal Suhail al-Hindi of Hamas' politburo to convicted 
terrorist Said Seyam, 23 years an UNRWA teacher.
    And IMPACT-se has warned for years about the consequences 
of this hate education and I ask you what can UNRWA possibly 
offer the next generation of Palestinians? Poisonous textbooks 
taught too often by extremist teachers? Quite simply, UNRWA is 
not fit for purpose.
    But there is an alternative. Elsewhere in the region the 
UAE has produced a curriculum that is centered around peace, 
tolerance, and acceptance of the other. Saudi Arabia has 
removed practically all the anti-Semitism and violent jihad 
from its textbooks.
    Israeli textbooks center peacemaking and feature a 
Palestinian narrative. Moroccan textbooks embrace Jews, the 
Amazigh, and they empower girls. Egypt is reforming its 
textbook system comprehensively.
    In other words, we look at the region and extremist UNRWA 
schools stand increasingly alone. It has chosen to teach 
conflict and violence over hope and over peace.
    But it is a path we can no longer afford to walk down. One 
thing is clear. If we want to prevent the next massacre, if we 
want to dream of peace, then UNRWA can play no further part in 
Palestinian education. There are alternatives.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Sheff follows:]

                                 sheff
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    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Sheff.
    I now recognize Mr. Neuer for his opening statement.

   STATEMENT OF HILLEL NEUER, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, U.N. WATCH

    Mr. Neuer. Chairman, Ranking Members--Chairmen, Ranking 
Members, members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to 
testify today.
    For years we have been told by UNRWA and its supporters 
that the agency performs lifesaving work and that its teachers 
offer Palestinian students an education that promotes human 
rights, tolerance, equality, and nondiscrimination.
    Today more than ever before, and I mean literally today in 
light of the bombshell news reports in yesterday's Wall Street 
Journal, Reuters, and elsewhere, we now know this has been a 
lie.
    From these and other revelations over the past few days we 
know that in Gaza at least 12 UNRWA employees personally 
participated in the massacre of October 7th which involved the 
murder of 1,200 Israelis, along with mass rape, torture, and 
mutilation.
    Secretary of State Blinken said yesterday these 
intelligence reports are highly, highly credible. The world 
also learned yesterday that 1,200 UNRWA employees in Gaza are 
part of Hamas or Islamic Jihad, meaning actual operatives 
within the political and military organizations.
    Finally, an estimated 6,000 UNRWA employees being half of 
the workforce in Gaza have close family members in these 
terrorist organizations. Now, UNRWA's top donors--the United 
States, Germany, Britain, Canada, and many others--have just 
announced they are freezing funds.
    Accordingly, I've come here from Geneva to bring before the 
Congress our case against UNRWA. I've come here to ask the 
Congress of the United States, which is the largest donor to 
UNRWA at over $300 million a year, to not just suspend but to 
end the funding for good, and to take the lead in dissolving an 
organization that is riddled with incitement to hate, 
involvement in terrorism, and the perpetuation of war.
    Members of the committee will find all of the evidence that 
I present here on our website at UNWatch.org under ``The Case 
Against UNRWA.''
    Now, on Friday Secretary General Guterres announced that he 
was, quote, ``horrified'' to learn that members of his UNRWA 
staff were implicated in terrorism.
    Members of the committee, I'm here to bear witness and 
testify that Secretary General Guterres, the head of UNRWA 
Philippe Lazzarini, their predecessors, their senior colleagues 
could not possibly have been shocked that UNRWA employees are 
implicated in terrorism because for the past 9 years--and 
Chairman Smith knows this very well because he's been on this 
issue and he's invited me to testify--we have been uncovering, 
publishing, and submitting to the United Nations, to UNRWA, 
evidence of widespread and systematic incitement to jihadi 
terrorism, the praise of Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, calls to 
slaughter Jews on the part of UNRWA teachers, school 
principals, and other employees.
    These reports range from 10 to 200 pages. For example, just 
in November we sent a report on 20 teachers who celebrated the 
October 7th massacre. In March together with IMPACT-se we 
identified 133 UNRWA teachers and staff who promoted hate and 
violence on social media.
    In June 2022 we released a report called ``UNRWA's Teachers 
of Hate'' and included the following Facebook posts by Elham 
Mansour. Quote--an UNRWA teacher--quote, ``By Allah anyone who 
can kill and slaughter any Zionist and Israeli criminal and 
does not do so does not deserve to live. Kill them and pursue 
them everywhere. They are the greatest enemy. All Israel 
deserves is death.''
    This is an UNRWA teacher's statement on Facebook. We sent 
it to the U.N. They did nothing. We sent them reports in 2021, 
2019, 2017, 2015--numerous reports. They never contacted us for 
information.
    They refused our repeated written requests to meet to 
discuss the problem. They cannot say they did not know. Mr. 
Guterres knew. The head of the UNRWA knew. The United Nations 
knew. They simply chose not to act.
    But it's much worse than that. From the beginning their 
response to our reports was to attack us for doing the work 
they failed to do. If we look at Christopher Gunness, the 
longtime UNRWA spokesman--he's now come back as a surrogate 
giving interviews on Al Jazeera--he said on Twitter the 
following in response to our reports.
    Quote, ``Appeal to journalists. Please do not turn U.N. 
Watch baseless allegations about anti-Semitism into a he said/
she said story. It's a nonstory.''
    Quote, ``U.N. Watch makes a fool of itself again, 
credibility dead in the water. Will anyone believe them 
again?''
    Quote, ``Interested''--he's interested--``to find out more 
about U.N. Watch's political and financial affiliations since 
its establishment. Can anyone advise?''
    This was their response, to smear the messenger. They are 
not interested in finding out the root problem of incitement to 
terrorism.
    In June 2022 when they had to suspend six out of 10 of 
their employees under pressure from the U.S., UNRWA Deputy 
Commissioner General Leni Stenseth, who's now the director 
general of the Norwegian Foreign Ministry, she informed donor 
states and put it on her website that, quote, ``The real intent 
of U.N. Watch--my organization--is quote, ``to destroy and not 
build and to invite conflict, not build a lasting peace.''
    Now, the U.S. and other donors have asked UNRWA to 
investigate and to ensure accountability. I can tell you for a 
decade UNRWA has shown itself to be unwilling, unable, and 
unfit.
    Today, I wish to present our new report called ``UNRWA's 
Terrorgram,'' which I've handed to each of the members and it's 
on our website UNWatch.org.
    In this report we document a Telegram chat group of over 
3,000 UNRWA teachers in Gaza that is replete with messages, 
photos, and videos cheering and celebrating the massacre of 
October 7th.
    It includes, for example, Safaa Mohammad Al Najjar on the 
morning of October 7th--she's an UNRWA teacher of computers in 
Gaza, an administrator of this Telegram group--she celebrated 
the massacre, posting videos. She praised the Hamas mujahideen, 
the holy warriors, as they massacred, mutilated, and raped 
Israelis.
    UNRWA English teacher Abdallah Mehjez shared a message from 
Hamas urging Gazans to stay put, to ignore Israeli messages 
asking them to evacuate for their safety, effectively doing the 
work of Hamas to ask Gazans to be human shields. This is an 
UNRWA teacher.
    Abdul Kareem Mezher in our report, an elementary school 
teacher, celebrated the Hamas terrorists saying, quote, ``May 
Allah keep their feet steady and guide their aim.''
    When a group member wondered what these heroes, the 
terrorists, as they are perpetrating the massacre what they 
were brought up on Mezher replied, ``They imbibed jihad and 
resistance with their mother's milk,'' and a few days later 
this UNRWA teacher asked to execute--asked Hamas to execute 
their Israeli hostages.
    When Stephane Dujarric, the U.N. spokesman, was asked about 
our information he replied on January 11th, quote, ``I mean, 
U.N. Watch, they have a track record and I think from our end 
it speaks for itself.'' He tried to disparage us.
    You know, just to conclude, we have massive incitement to 
terrorism. You know, prominent people have said bad apples--
it's a few bad apples.
    We're talking about 1,200 who belong to the organization, 
3,000 in this group, 6,000 whose family members belong to it. 
This is not a problem of bad apples. It's rotten to the core.
    We have talked about incitement, we have talked about acts 
of actual violence and, finally, let's get to the core problem 
and with that I conclude.
    The core problem of UNRWA, the very purpose of the agency, 
is to perpetuate the war of 1948, to send the message to 
Palestinians that the war of 1948 is not over.
    Don't use cement to build homes, hospitals, and schools 
here in Gaza. Use it to build hundreds of miles of terror 
tunnels to tunnel into Israel, to invade Israel, to go back to 
what your homes are.
    That is the message of UNRWA. We should not be surprised 
what happened on October 7th because that is the message that 
these Palestinians got for more than 70 years in UNRWA schools.
    UNRWA is a failure. We have to recognize what the Swiss 
Foreign Minister Ignazio Cassis said. This is a country 
historically that's supported--that supports the U.N. He said 
the following:
    I quote, ``UNRWA has become part of the problem. It 
supplies the ammunition to continue the conflict. By supporting 
UNRWA we keep the conflict alive. It's a perverse logic.''
    And I'm here to say if the United States and other 
governments that fund UNRWA truly care about helping 
Palestinians and Israelis it's time to put an end to this 
perverse logic. We're asking the Congress to take the lead in 
dissolving this agency.
    Thank you very much.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Neuer follows:]

                                 neuer
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    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Neuer.
    I now recognize Ms. Rudman for her opening statement.
    Microphone, ma'am.

STATEMENT OF MARA RUDMAN, SCHLESINGER PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF 
                     VIRGINIA MILLER CENTER

    Ms. Rudman. Thank you, and I thank the subcommittee chairs 
and ranking members----
    Mr. Mast. If you could speak into it just a little bit more 
I think everybody will hear you better.
    Ms. Rudman. Thank you.
    I'd like to thank you and the ranking member and 
subcommittee Chair Smith, members of the committee, for the 
opportunity to appear before you. I have warm memories of my 
service on this committee's staff as legal counsel under Chair 
Lee Hamilton.
    So much of how I learned to approach U.S. foreign policy 
and the important oversight responsibilities of this committee 
I attribute to the tutelage of Lee Hamilton. Of course, I alone 
am responsible for my statement here today.
    In my written testimony I discuss, first, the U.S. national 
security interests at stake in this topic; second, Palestinian 
basic needs historically, particularly in Gaza, and why meeting 
them is intrinsic to Israeli security and regional security and 
stability; and third, why I continue to see a case for U.S. 
support for UNRWA and/or other U.N. entities with appropriate 
oversight and related pauses where necessary until and unless 
alternatives are created. Such support is critical for serving 
U.S. national security interests and sustainable security for 
the State of Israel.
    In my brief time with you now I want to highlight five key 
points. No. 1, I am not here to defend UNRWA, which has many 
shortcomings well documented including here today. So let's 
start with its most immediate failures.
    We have talked about those. They fired 12 staff who based 
on reporting and the strength and rapidity I would say of the 
U.S. pause as well on funding were clearly operatives who 
participated in the barbaric ISIS like Hamas attack on 
Israelis, and there are allegations that more of the 13,000 
Palestinians on UNRWA's payroll may be affiliated in some way 
with the Hamas movement.
    In my experience working with Israeli military, Palestinian 
leaders, and U.N. officials, I found some in UNRWA leadership 
to tend toward the sanctimonious, too often painting only in 
black and white when the reality was much more often a 
continuum between the two, and in so doing they rarely 
acknowledged faults or shortcomings within their own 
organization. This has rendered them on occasion blind and 
often blinkered in their outlook.
    Two, UNRWA's mission is unique and it is critical to 
Israel's security and regional stability. UNRWA is mandated to 
provide assistance and protection specifically to some 5.4 
million registered refugees.
    As has been pointed out, in Gaza, the West Bank, Jordan, 
Lebanon and Syria UNRWA's mandate includes providing education, 
health care, social services to its target population as well 
as employment and direct relief.
    There is no other organization right now. It's not WFP, not 
UNHCR that is set up to be able to take the reins tomorrow and 
fulfill this.
    UNRWA employs 13,000 Palestinians in Gaza. It's the single 
largest employer in Gaza. It runs the only public school system 
in Gaza. A majority of the 2 million Palestinians in Gaza 
depended on UNRWA assistance before October 7th.
    For the services UNRWA provides to a desperate population 
there is no substitute at this time. It does not mean that 
there are opportunities to create ways forward.
    But in terms of what they're doing right now there is no 
substitute and they are providing for the most basic needs, No. 
3--the most basic needs of Palestinians which is part and 
parcel of providing for security for the State of Israel.
    Having 2 million famished increasingly desperate people 
long treated as expendable by de facto Hamas rulers with no 
ability to move and limited ability to provide for themselves 
and their families within walking distance of southern Israel 
threatens Israelis' security and stability.
    Palestinians who are food secure and able to sustain 
themselves and their families and have a political horizon that 
will 1 day realistically offer a better future for their 
children alongside a State of Israel are Palestinians less 
likely to be drawn to or be forced to serve terrorists forces 
such as Hamas.
    No. 4, Israeli military officials long have been committed 
to getting humanitarian assistance into Gaza--Israeli military 
officials. I know from the countless hours I spent with them on 
the details they prioritize doing so because they saw it as 
directly serving Israeli security interests.
    They work closely with UNRWA leaders and other U.N. 
officials to devise the most effective and secure means for 
executing these aims.
    They did so appreciating that there was risk involved but 
they saw a far greater risk to their country and to their 
security if goods were not able to flow and they knew these 
U.N. entities were vital actors to ensure provision of such 
services in Gaza in particular.
    Five, U.S. aid to UNRWA is key to meeting basic needs of 
Palestinians, particularly in Gaza, and that's critical to 
Israel's security and to U.S. security. For that aid to resume 
we need a framework to assess what has gone so terribly wrong 
with the agency, and whether it can be righted with internal 
reform or requires a transition of responsibilities to another 
organization within or outside the U.N.
    The development and oversight of the audit necessary for 
such assessment should be led from outside of UNRWA, no 
question. I have some thoughts on who that--who could do that.
    Aid must resume to UNRWA at the same time, though, as the 
assessment is being carried out. The United States, Israel, the 
world, cannot afford the risk of famine taking root in Gaza.
    That problem will not stay in Gaza. It is very directly 
threatening to the security and stability of Israel and the 
region and thus the United States.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Rudman follows:]

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    Mr. Mast. Thank you, ma'am. I now recognize myself for 
questions and I'd like to start with you.
    Looking at some of your comments here you said that you're 
not here to defend UNRWA, but you did also say in your comments 
that you are here to make the case that we should continue to 
support UNRWA.
    Kind of sounds to me a little bit like having your cake and 
eating it, too. But I want to ask you a few questions about 
this.
    Do the Rohingya have an UNRWA?
    Ms. Rudman. I believe I stated, sir, that UNRWA is a unique 
agency with a unique vision, and also that it's not the same 
all the time.
    Mr. Mast. So no UNRWA for Rohingya? No UNRWA for Rohingya? 
None? Ma'am, no UNRWA for Rohingya?
    Ms. Rudman. Sir, as I said UNRWA is unique.
    Mr. Mast. No UNRWA for Sudanese?
    Ms. Rudman. That would--that would imply by an organization 
being unique that there is not a similar organization elsewhere 
in the world for other refugees.
    Mr. Mast. So none for the Sudanese either, correct? You've 
worked in this field. None for the Sudanese?
    Ms. Rudman. I'm sorry, sir. I'm doing my best to answer 
your question, which I believe I'm doing.
    Mr. Mast. None for the Sudanese either.
    So I'd like to know from your opinion what percent or 
number of UNRWA employees do you believe are Hamas or support 
Hamas?
    Ms. Rudman. I do not have the basis for making that 
assessment. I read the same press reports that I'm sure you've 
read that talk about a percentage within UNRWA that is, 
roughly, around the same percentage as estimated in the 
Palestinian population at large in Gaza. So between 10 and 15 
percent.
    Mr. Mast. Say that one--your estimate is that between 10 
and 15 percent of UNRWA employees, just to make sure I'm 
hearing you correctly, are possibly Hamas or supportive of 
Hamas or Palestinian Islamic Jihad or Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade 
or one of the terrorist organizations that exists in the Gaza 
Strip?
    Ms. Rudman. What I'm saying, sir, is that press reports 
have indicated that the percentages of UNRWA staff that may be 
affiliated in some way with Hamas are, roughly, similar to 
the--to the percentages in the general population that are 
thought to be affiliated. So between 10 and 15 percent. But I 
want to be clear that I'm relying----
    Mr. Mast. Do you look at that and say that's out of this 
world, that's crazy, no way, not a chance? Or do you look at it 
and say, seems like it might be a reasonable estimate?
    Ms. Rudman. I believe if they employ 13,000 people in the 
population--the single biggest employer--it would not be 
surprising if the percentages are, roughly, that of the general 
population.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you. As you're here to make the case for 
continued support for UNRWA, per your statement, what would you 
need to see to say this is a threshold, this has gone too far, 
there can no longer be support for UNRWA? Would it be if UNRWA 
fired 100 people?
    If they said 100 people--we have the evidence these 
individuals took part in the attack. Would that to you reach 
the threshold of saying, all right, I'm no longer here to 
support UNRWA?
    Ms. Rudman. I'm here, sir, to look at what's in the best 
interest of U.S. national security, which was my teaching under 
the former chair of this committee, and what's in the best 
interest of Israel's security and I believe that is finding 
some function, some way of providing for the most basic needs 
of Palestinians.
    Mr. Mast. So 100 people confirmed working for Hamas as a 
part of UNRWA, for you, would not be a threshold for cutting 
ties with UNRWA?
    Ms. Rudman. So for me what would be a threshold is finding 
a suitable framework that can be put in place both to evaluate 
UNRWA and to be able to go forward with other means of 
providing aid at the same time.
    Mr. Mast. So there's no threshold for bad behavior?
    Ms. Rudman. The threshold is U.S. national security 
interests and concerns for me, sir.
    Mr. Mast. No threshold for bad behavior, though?
    Ms. Rudman. Same answer applies.
    Mr. Mast. So none. And I think this is concerning because I 
heard this in remarks from my colleagues. You were invited here 
as the Democrat witness of choice. They chose for you to be the 
person that they requested to be here.
    And, again, in your remarks you say that you're here to 
make the case for continued support of UNRWA and I think this 
is what we're going to continue to see very likely from the 
Administration is in this case that there is no threshold for 
bad behavior.
    It does not matter if it's one individual that was a part 
of Hamas or one of these other terrorist organizations, or a 
hundred that were a part of them that took part in the attacks, 
or there's a hundred right now that are participating in 
holding hostages.
    Doesn't matter. No threshold for bad behavior. This is some 
sacrosanct entity that just simply must continue no matter 
what, and that cannot be the case that we have, moving forward.
    I will not show support for that especially, as I said in 
my opening statement, I think that we have a shell game going 
on from the Administration right now where they're saying that 
they're cutting off the funding, pausing the funding for UNRWA, 
but in fact they waited until just after they allowed tens of 
millions of dollars to be released to UNRWA and then now they 
are saying they're going to pause funding for UNRWA. Absolute 
shell game, in my opinion.
    In that I'm now going to yield time to Ranking Member Crow 
for as many questions as he needs to ask.
    Mr. Crow. Thank you, Chairman.
    Well, first of all, we need to just clear the air here. You 
mischaracterized our witness' testimony repeatedly and tried to 
put words into her mouth. She did not say at any point that 
there was no threshold for bad behavior.
    In fact, she specifically answered your question about what 
the criteria and the framework should be and that is centering 
our national security and our interests, centering Israel's 
security and interests, as well as the rights and dignity of 
the Palestinian people.
    Mr. Mast. Did you want to yield?
    Mr. Crow. Those should be the measures and the gauges and, 
frankly, I will push back on the notion that she answered in 
the manner in which you characterized her answer.
    Mr. Mast. Did you want to yield to me or----
    Mr. Crow. Yes, I'll yield to you.
    Mr. Mast. I did very specifically ask her to clarify, are 
you saying that there is no threshold. I asked the question are 
you saying there is----
    Mr. Crow. Yes, and she answered what her threshold was. She 
gave a very clear answer to that.
    Mr. Mast. No threshold for bad behavior.
    Mr. Crow. No, she provided the framework for what her 
threshold was.
    Mr. Mast. Which was no threshold----
    Mr. Crow. Because it wasn't your answer you kept going 
after her.
    Mr. Mast. I asked for--I do not want to take up your time. 
It's yours. But I did ask if there's no threshold for bad 
behavior.
    Mr. Crow. And she answered very clearly.
    Mr. Mast. Without answering.
    Mr. Crow. So, Ms. Rudman--I will reclaim my time if that's 
fine for you, Chairman.
    Mr. Mast. Absolutely.
    Mr. Crow. All right. But I also heard you say, Ms. Rudman, 
is that you have no allegiance or loyalty to UNRWA the 
organization. Just like me, right. I have no allegiance and 
loyalty to any one organization. I'm not going to sit here and 
defend UNRWA nor should I, and I have very real concerns.
    What I have an allegiance and loyalty to is the mission, 
right, the services that are being provided by this entity and 
that is your concern as well.
    So what I want to do is get beyond the point where people 
just criticize because the problem with policy right now is 
we're very long on criticism. People roll in here and they're 
very long on criticism and they're very short on solutions.
    So I'd like to take a moment to talk about solutions, 
right, and you made a very clear point that despite the very 
real concerns about UNRWA they are the only game in town on 
some very key points.
    Right now there's no other entity that exists that provides 
the scope of services that UNRWA provides to the Palestinian 
people.
    So could you explain for us for a moment, given your vast 
experience in this area and the substantial time that you've 
spent personally in Gaza, how we would go about identifying 
those core services and transitioning them either to existing 
organizations that currently do not provide those services or 
to create a new entity that would still do it.
    Because at the end of the day there are very important 
things that need to happen, right, and services that need to be 
provided. So how do we get there?
    Ms. Rudman. Thank you, Representative Crow, for your 
comments and for the question.
    I think that the most basic needs I'm going to put, though 
I recognize for this panel education is a primary focus, I 
would focus first on food and water and electricity, 
understanding and appreciating the importance of education as 
well.
    And so I would look at the structures inside Gaza, the 
staffing and the employees. As we have talked about, UNRWA has 
many more than--they have the whole infrastructure inside.
    So how do you replicate that? That would require figuring 
out whether it's UNHCR--I think less likely. UNDP is quite 
active in Gaza but, again, not anywhere near the numbers. World 
Food Programme that handles distribution and goods going in and 
out but not with, again, staff on the ground to carry out the 
delivery of these means.
    There are ways you might be able to divide the 
responsibilities among AND between but you're still going to 
need screening mechanisms, auditing mechanisms, things to 
ensure that what has happened with UNRWA and their staff is not 
replicated elsewhere.
    What I can tell you is that the Israeli military, 
recognizing absolutely the importance of getting goods into 
Gaza, does not want to be, ought not to be for a variety of 
reasons in Gaza responsible for distribution of that food.
    They are quite active on the crossing points at--and have 
been historically again pre-October 7th at Nir Oz and at a 
couple of the other crossing points--thank you, Kerem Shalom--
and so watch very closely goods coming in and out and have kind 
of strict means for that.
    So there are roles, again, for Israeli military but they 
are not inside Gaza. So what I would do is figure out exactly 
who does what, who has which resources in which ways, how do 
you make sure that food and water, the basic necessities, are 
getting in to people and how you develop the mechanisms to 
better screen staff who are working for these--for any of these 
agencies at the same time, not just UNRWA.
    Mr. Crow. And because UNRWA is a organization that 
historically lives paycheck to paycheck, so to speak, and in 
the United States and I believe nine other countries at this 
point have joined the U.S. in cutting funding and I've seen 
estimates that that funding will run out by mid-February.
    Is it your--is it your professional opinion that what you 
just described could be accomplished in 2 weeks or do we really 
need to look seriously at, you know, an interim gap measure or 
to resume some limited funding with appropriate oversight to 
make sure people do not starve to death in that time?
    Ms. Rudman. That's exactly my concern. I do not think it 
can be reserved and it can be put in place by flipping a 
switch, and it will take time. I think it's important that it 
be done. I think there are ways of doing it.
    But it's not going to happen in a week or two and I heard 
that the view that there's much more money out there UNRWA is 
very much paycheck to paycheck, probably, like, still paying 
last month's debts and the United States and Germany are 
about--kind of over $500 million between the two. So quite a 
significant impact.
    So there needs to--my view is there needs to be some 
transition plan, which I recognize is not--and I do not speak 
for the United States government--I have not heard what their 
plan is on that front.
    Mr. Crow. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Crow.
    And I would say that I do not have an allegiance to UNRWA's 
mission. My allegiance is to America and Americans singularly.
    I now yield to Ranking Member Smith.
    Mr. Smith. I appreciate that.
    Mr. Goldberg, you talked about the horror show, and I think 
that was a very apt description of what UNRWA does. I mean, do 
you know of any instance where an UNRWA employee or leader 
dissented from Hamas and offered a vision that was inclusive 
and respectful of Jews?
    Mr. Sheff, you talked about the hate and violence being 
endemic. You know, one of my--when I was growing up I remember 
eight or 9 years old I saw the musical by Rodgers and 
Hammerstein called ``South Pacific'' and there was a--there was 
one song that as a young kid caught my attention and I've 
thought of it ever since in all of my human rights work, and I 
do a lot of it, because it just--it talked about hate.
    Two of the paragraphs--two of the song, ``You've got to be 
taught to hate and fear. You've got to be taught from year to 
year. It's got to be drummed into your dear little ear. You've 
got to be carefully taught. You've got to be taught before it's 
too late, before your sixth or seventh or eighth, to hate all 
the people your ancestors, relatives hate. You've got to be 
carefully taught.''
    In my opinion, and I've been at this--I served with Lee 
Hamilton--I've been raising UNRWA issues for decades. We have 
given them as the U.S. Government $7 billion years to date and 
we get crickets back. We get false reform that never happens.
    There's no transparency and, unfortunately, it has gotten 
worse over the years. It has--and we have seen the results. One 
generation of young people after another who wants to kill 
Jewish people, who hate Jewish people, have an absolute ugly 
caricature of who Jewish people and Jewish kids and adults 
actually are and dream of the day when they are all killed.
    I mean, is there anybody in an UNRWA camp or in an UNRWA 
school that dissents from the Hamas charter of 1988 and stands 
up and say, you know, that charter is an outrage when you talk 
about human rights?
    Do they? I do not see them doing it. If they do it what 
happens to them?
    Mr. Hillel, you talked about bombshell revelations. None of 
this is a bombshell to you or me and others who've been 
following this. I've met with the UNRWA board over the years. 
They always have a nice slick presentation that sounds like, 
wow, what are we talking about? They know better than us.
    And, yes, I understand why the Israelis as a matter of 
necessity would have to do some kind of accommodation. What 
else are they going to do when the entire international 
community including the United States are all on board, say 
this is the means to the end?
    I believe that the people in Gaza do need to get food, 
clothing, shelter, and their children need an education that is 
free of anti-Semitic hate. That's what they deserve.
    This is--this brainwashing, frankly, in my opinion, is 
child abuse of these kids. You wonder why they're filled with 
all this hate. They're taught year to year to year to year.
    And so if you want to comment on that as well. I do believe 
they need a new platform. You know, I do not know if UNHCR or 
any of those--maybe, you know, necessity is the mother of 
invention.
    This has to be the pivot point what has happened with UNRWA 
now, and the international community including the Biden 
Administration and if he gets another term or whoever follows 
has to say enough is enough.
    Otherwise, this will be happening again. A couple years 
we'll have another incidence like this and we'll have more kids 
toting AK-47s and rocket grenade launchers and other means of 
violence who are killing innocent people.
    As you said, Mr. Sheff, about the burning bus you see that 
bus burning and they're celebrating. I mean, that is disgusting 
on steroids and I do hope, you know, you would speak to what 
might be a follow-on group.
    But, you know, to say we're going to go right back to UNRWA 
and we're going to go right back to the same teachers who have 
been inculcating this hate-filled agenda which is poisoning 
those kids those kids need--you know, we see it with child 
soldiers in Uganda. Remember all those years? I've worked on 
all of that, too.
    These kids needed to be deprogrammed and find a way out of 
the hate that they have been--that has been inculcated into 
their hearts, minds, and souls in this case by their teachers.
    So if you could speak to that, Mr. Sheff.
    Mr. Sheff. ? Sure. I've never heard that musical reference 
before. Extremely opposite. And thank you so much for that.
    Yes, textbooks are uniquely authoritative, especially in 
the MENA region in the Middle East where you get one book, one 
grade, one subject, and they carry the values, the identities 
that leaders wish to pass down to the next generation for good 
or for bad.
    This is how we create the societies of the future that we 
want to see, through these textbooks, through education and, of 
course, for bad. You know, we know that one of the first things 
that Hitler did when he came to power was change the textbooks 
and there he was in 1939 with enough young people who would 
join the Einsatzgruppen and commit those terrible acts they 
committed and textbooks were used then for good by Germans 
after the war in order to deradicalize that society.
    They are incredibly powerful and, yes, Palestinian children 
deserve a set of textbooks which is filled with ideas of peace 
and tolerance, with those UNESCO standards. And this is not 
rocket science, by the way.
    This has been done time and time and time again. These 
textbooks can be changed in a matter of weeks. They look like 
this.
    What you're looking at here is a Palestinian textbook. This 
one actually has a picture of Dalal Mughrabi, the terrorist 
that I was telling you about before which is taught in 
Palestinian Authority schools, which is taught in UNRWA schools 
and was taught in Hamas schools.
    You know, it's a magazine. All you need to do is switch the 
PDF, put in material which is better than Dalal Mughrabi 
material which can inspire young people rather than teach them 
to be terrorists.
    Weeks--that is how long it can take in order to change the 
school curriculum. So we're talking about what can we do in the 
future. Again, this can be done really simply.
    Those schools in Gaza can have a new school curriculum 
which is filled with these ideas of peace and tolerance and, by 
the way, it needs to be the Palestinian Authority as well 
because they are producing this.
    UNRWA is teaching the textbooks which the Palestinian 
Authority created as well, of course, as UNRWA creating its own 
material. So let us insist on this. Let us demand this. Futures 
absolutely rely on changing these textbooks.
    Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Sheff.
    Mr. Smith?
    Mr. Smith. Just one very brief followup.
    I remember in June 2021 when UNRWA was pressured into 
removing their Gaza director after he gave an interview that 
Hamas and others condemned.
    Can you--perhaps, Hillel, you can give us a little 
background on what happened there?
    Mr. Neuer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    That episode is actually a very telling episode. You know, 
there was a war between Israel and Hamas in May 2021 and 
afterwards the UNRWA Gaza director Matthias Schmale, a German 
national, was interviewed on Israeli TV and he was asked 
whether the Israeli strikes against Hamas were precise and he 
said, yes, they were very precise.
    And he wasn't thinking when he gave his answer to adhere to 
the Hamas script, which UNRWA officials invariably do, what 
everyone else in Gaza does, because it's an authoritarian 
terrorist regime. If you do not follow the script when you 
speak to the media, you're going to get in a lot of trouble. 
You're going to get hurt very badly.
    And he said--he conceded that Israel's strikes against 
Hamas were very precise. They were able to hit a precise point 
when they were successful and not--and not hit civilians and so 
forth.
    And moments later there were protests orchestrated by Hamas 
throughout Gaza. There were pictures of him photoshopped onto 
an Israeli military uniform as if he was an Israeli--even 
though he's someone who was quite anti-Israel for many years.
    But because he slipped in his interview he was deemed 
persona non grata, protests against him and his deputy, and he 
was forced to leave. Hamas forced the head of UNRWA in Gaza to 
leave.
    Then the--his boss, Deputy Commissioner General Leni 
Stenseth, a former Norwegian diplomat who has gone back to Oslo 
to be the head of their foreign ministry, she went to visit 
Yahya Sinwar.
    He is the evil mastermind of the October 7th massacre, 
someone who kills people with his own hands--you know, 
Palestinians with his own hands who he considers collaborators. 
A vicious murderer.
    She went to see him--this is their headline in the 
newspaper--and she said that she wants to reaffirm her 
solidarity with the Palestinians. Basically, the message was we 
went off script but do not worry.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Neuer.
    We have to move on to the next person, Mr. Neuer. Thank 
you. Thank you for your testimony.
    The chair now recognizes Ms. Wild.
    Ms. Wild. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    My first and foremost concern is always for children. It 
was unbearable to see what happened to Israeli children on 
October 7th and since when they were tortured, murdered, taken 
hostage, many of them having to witness their parents' murders. 
It was horrific.
    It's equally unbearable, at least for me, to watch what 
Palestinian children are suffering and their deaths, their 
medical problems, which are extensive, their hunger.
    And so I start with the children as a starting point 
because I think that if we consider all children to be innocent 
and deserving of a safe place to live, water to drink, and food 
to eat we might be able to find some common ground in solving 
this problem.
    And aside from that basic humanitarian concept I think we 
have to recognize that desperate childhoods often give rise to 
violence in adulthood whether it's here in the United States or 
elsewhere, and I think we can all agree we do not want to 
create future generations of terrorists. Full stop on that.
    So with that, I'm going to direct my question to you, Ms. 
Rudman, to the national security part of this. You've got a 
special expertise in national security and your testimony--your 
written testimony has reflected that focus. Thank you for that 
very comprehensive report.
    Could you talk about this concept of aid to the Palestinian 
civilian population from a national security perspective?
    Ms. Rudman. Sure. Thank you, Congresswoman.
    The issue is, as you have reflected, the threat from the 
risk to security from people who are desperate and Gaza--I was 
first there in 1987 or 1988.
    It has never been an easy place to live. It has gotten 
worse and worse and more and more difficult even before October 
7th and certainly under Hamas rule.
    I would just say on that point to Chairman Smith's comment 
I actually do know a number of Palestinians who survived very 
difficult childhoods, who survived UNRWA schools. They cannot 
speak out publicly in Gaza because of the nature of Hamas rule 
and the lack of freedom of speech.
    But there are any number of Palestinians who are absolutely 
concerned about both their future, their children's future. 
Those who could left and are living other places also under 
very difficult circumstances.
    But there are any number of people who can be reached with 
their basic needs being taken care of while they cannot do it 
themselves who want jobs, who want futures, and it's in our 
national security interest to find a way.
    And Israel, I believe, has repeatedly made the calculation 
that it's in their security interest as well to ensure that 
basic needs are covered for people who--and let's just be 
clear.
    These are people who--it is a small area from Israel 
itself. Gaza is maybe twice the size of Washington, DC. but 
with no exit--entrance or exit. But it is actually walking 
distance as Dahara (phonetic) and I was at kibbutz Nir Oz. I 
was at kibbutz Be'eri in December. They are within easy walking 
distance of Gaza.
    And in addition to that, there's a population of three and 
a half million Palestinians in the West Bank who watch, 
reflect, see what's happening to Palestinians in Gaza and react 
as well.
    And so on the relative scale of what it costs the United 
States, and I do not make light of what $300 million is--that's 
a significant amount of money. But the cost to the United 
States, the cost to Israel, the cost to regional stability, of 
not feeding people, of not getting water in, is far, far higher 
than a clearly inadequate agency but the agency that has the 
infrastructure doing it until and unless we have an 
alternative.
    So I think it very much comes back to the risk that the 
United States is willing to take on in this situation and the 
risks that Israel will absorb as well if we do not find a means 
to continue to go forward with basic services.
    Ms. Wild. Thank you. I would have followup, except that my 
time is up. Thank you very much. I yield.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Ranking Member Wild.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. Perry.
    Mr. Perry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ladies and gentlemen, I think it shocks the conscience of 
every person even if you've, because of your professional 
norms, have been exposed to some of this kind of stuff to see 
the kind of carnage that's happened in Israel and Gaza since 
October. Shocks the conscience.
    However, there's a reason this is happening and it's not 
the Jews that attacked Gaza. It is not the Jews.
    Mr. Neuer, UNRWA's commissioner General Lazzarini do you 
know of any time that he has denounced the Hamas charter?
    Mr. Neuer. No, sir. I'm aware of no time that he has ever 
denounced the Hamas charter.
    Mr. Perry. And I suspect, like me, you have read the Hamas 
charter and you know that it specifically calls for the 
destruction of Israel and the massacre of Jewish people?
    Mr. Neuer. Absolutely.
    Mr. Perry. Mr. Goldberg, does the United Nations Relief 
Workers Agency--UNRWA--the United Nations Relief Workers 
Agency, does it provide cash or simply materiel, supplies, to 
the people in Gaza? How does--for the American people that 
aren't familiar how does that work?
    Mr. Goldberg. There's a range of services that would 
typically be provided by State actors and so rather than--this 
is, by the way, why if you're a supporter of a two-State 
solution, I've never understood why you support UNRWA. It's 
antithetical to statehood building.
    But there are a number of--a range of local government type 
services--streets and sanitation, housing, education. So a lot 
of services that are being provided but there's also cash 
assistance.
    Now, back in the day when we started oversight in the 
Congress this was literally bags of cash being handed out and 
they did not have----
    Mr. Perry. So can I--can I drill down on that? Because Ms. 
Rudman, I think, appropriately said, you know, we have got to 
provide food, water, electricity.
    I imagine when you say housing that might be building 
material and thinking in my mind's eye, thinking back to 
pictures from Gaza of tunnels. Tunnels are hard to build. You 
know, you need--you need equipment. I remember the tunnels were 
lighted so that's electricity.
    My point is for a concrete tunnel with electricity you 
probably got the concrete somewhere. You probably got the 
electricity somewhere, and it's reasonable to believe, I think, 
that the American taxpayer has been a part and parcel to 
funding that stuff. Is that a stretch for me?
    Mr. Goldberg. That is not a stretch, sir. That is 
guaranteed.
    Mr. Perry. So if I'm running my household and I only have 
so much a month to feed my family, provide a roof over their 
head, clothing and education, but I want to spend all my money 
killing my neighbor is it my neighbor's--is it my neighbor's 
job then to go ahead and continue to provide the roof over my 
head and the food in my belly?
    Is that--does that seem reasonable to anybody here? Does 
it--Mr. Goldberg, does it seem reasonable to you?
    Mr. Goldberg. Nothing about UNRWA has ever seemed 
reasonable to me.
    Mr. Perry. Well, the United Nations--the United Nations 
Relief Workers Agency is a terrorist-supporting entity, ladies 
and gentlemen. America's taxpayers pay for the absolute worst 
of it. The absolute worst of it.
    They pay for all--they do not get a say. They send over the 
money, they send over the material, and it gets used against 
America's interests. It gets used against America's national 
security interest, against the world's national security 
interests, and everyone in this room knows it.
    Everyone in this room knows it including people that would 
protest by showing blood on their hands. They're literally the 
ones with the blood on their hands. They're supporting that.
    Now, for those who say there is no other organization to 
take this mission, no substitute, and that we must continue to 
fund UNRWA--the United Nations Relief Workers Agency--while the 
assessment is being made--while the assessment is being made.
    Well, I do not know how many years you need to make the 
assessment, ladies and gentlemen. I've made the assessment. The 
American people are tired of getting up early in the morning 
and going to work and trying to pay their bills and also be 
forced to pay for people that get money from UNRWA to slaughter 
Jews.
    They're tired of doing it and they're sick of it. We had a 
vote on the 28th of September. I know because I offered the 
amendment--I offered the amendment to defund this terror-
supporting organization. Came close--213 to 218. We lost. We 
came close.
    If we had the vote today, I suspect it might be different 
because America can finally see what many of us here have seen 
for years and decades, years and decades, as you have, Mr. 
Goldberg.
    This absolutely must end and must end now.
    Mr. Chairman, I think this highlights and the information 
that we have highlights the fact that we all believe in the 
best of people and humanity and our heart cries out to anybody 
on either side of this equation and the tragedies that have 
happened.
    But we, the United States of America and the American 
people, cannot be complicit any longer, and I yield.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Perry. The chair now recognizes 
Ms. Manning.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you, Chairman Mast and Chairman Smith, 
and thank you to all our witnesses for joining us today.
    I am outraged by reports that at least 12 of UNRWA's own 
employees participated in or helped plan the heinous October 
7th terrorist attacks against Israel, attacks in which 1,200 
innocent civilians were brutally murdered and hundreds were 
taken hostage with many, including young women and children, 
who are still being held by Hamas.
    It is sickening to think that any teacher of children would 
participate in that attack or that many other UNRWA employees 
might have links to Hamas or Islamic jihad.
    I strongly support humanitarian assistance for the innocent 
Palestinians in Gaza and what Hamas has done to the very people 
it was elected to govern is appalling.
    That's why what the Administration--but it is simply 
intolerable to allow a U.N. agency to have employees who are 
members of Hamas and that is why the Administration was right 
to suspend funding to UNRWA pending investigation. Our 
international assistance can never be used to promote 
terrorism.
    Many of us have long demanded reform to UNRWA's fundamental 
problems including its mission creep, the ongoing 
politicization of its mandate, its own employees' violations of 
U.N. principles of neutrality and tolerance, and the 
persistence of biased, anti-Semitic content in textbooks used 
in UNRWA schools in both the West Bank and Gaza.
    In many UNRWA schools teachers have literally been raising 
terrorists with the appalling anti-Semitic content in their 
textbooks.
    Given the serious legitimate humanitarian needs as we look 
at the day after Gaza I hope our witnesses can help us 
understand how we can go about overhauling UNRWA because I just 
do not think we can tolerate what we have recently seen and I'm 
concerned that what we have recently seen is just the tip of 
the iceberg with regard to UNRWA.
    Mr. Goldberg, according to its website, the U.N. High 
Commission on Refugees works--protects refugees and works with 
governments and partners to find long-term solutions so they 
can find a safe place to call home, and that includes 
integration into the host community or resettlement into 
integration in a third country and helping them access 
livelihoods so they can live with greater independence and 
contribute to their communities.
    In other words, the UNHRC helps refugees build new lives. 
Does UNRWA do this?
    Mr. Goldberg. No, ma'am. It has a mandate to keep people in 
refugee status indefinitely and raise them to internalize that 
as a vision that 1 day they will return to homes and destroy 
modern Israel, push the Jews into the sea.
    It is core to the mission to keep Palestinians limited in 
their economic and political rights. In my view, it is anti-
human rights as an organization.
    Ms. Manning. And the day after this conflict is resolved if 
the international community were to establish a new mechanism 
to serve the same population in Gaza, how would or should its 
workforce and its mandate be different from UNRWA's current 
workforce and mandate?
    Mr. Goldberg. That's a great question, ma'am, and that's 
actually where the focus of our attention should be. If we all 
can agree on the premise that UNRWA is done and now we're 
moving on to what comes next now we can actually have a policy 
discussion, which is very important.
    The U.N. High Commissioner for Refugees can play a role. 
There are other places in the world where conflict breaks out 
where we have IDPs. UNHCR moves in very quickly.
    By the way, they did that in Syria where UNRWA was 
operating. UNRWA couldn't operate anymore. UNHCR came in and 
took over a lot of responsibilities.
    We have the World Food Programme. We have UNICEF. We have 
other organizations. But also if we get to a place where Hamas 
is finally out of control of Gaza, where we get to a place 
where we have reform in the Palestinian Authority, at some 
point we also have to talk about moving this out of the 
multilateral system into a bilateral aid program with true 
oversight, metrics for success, how are you moving people to 
economic success, political prosperity, openness, et cetera.
    If you're just looking at handing a check over to an 
organization that just keeps people in despair you're going to 
get more people in despair. You're going to get the terrorism 
you do not want.
    Ms. Manning. Thank you. I have many more questions but, 
unfortunately, my time has expired.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Ms. Manning.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. Mills.
    Mr. Mills. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I think it's simple to say that over the 20-plus years that 
the United States has been involved in overseas conflict, 
whether that be the war in Iraq or the war in Afghanistan, that 
you cannot simply defeat ideology through bombs and bullets.
    This is something that is taught. This is something that is 
trained, and that is why even after the Russians fell in 
Afghanistan it was such a big element for us to want to fight 
toward education of our children because it's very proven 
through many studies that children are not born with hate. They 
are taught hate.
    And so I agree with many of our panelists on the ideas that 
the first thing that we have to do is root out the hatred in 
these curriculums and textbooks that are actually intentionally 
looking at breeding the next generation of terrorists.
    The problem for me, however, is that many are trying to act 
as if the United States stops being a donor to UNRWA that it 
simply ceases to exist. It's just not true.
    You've got Germany, EU, Sweden, Norway, Japan, France, 
Saudi Arabia, Switzerland, Turkey, Canada, Netherlands, et 
cetera, et cetera, who are all donors into these programs.
    I think that it's simple to say that we all echo the same 
sympathies that Representative Perry mentioned by saying that 
it's not OK for any civilians of any type to lose their lives. 
That's what we're trying to prevent.
    But we certainly cannot continue to fund the very 
organizations that are responsible for these attacks and UNRWA 
is directly responsible as are many of these organizations for 
the horrendous, horrific, and barbaric attack that occurred on 
October 7th.
    But I would also argue that this is systemic across the 
United Nations, which I have said should be replaced with the 
notion of being the Useless Nations because you had Resolution 
2231, the nuclear JCPOA that was set up to try and keep Iran 
from funding and continuing terrorism.
    And under General Secretary Ban Ki-moon and Guterres, we 
know multiple violations of mid-range ballistic missiles and 
other types of terrorist activities, that was taking place 
where they wouldn't do anything until President Trump came 
forward and removed us from these failed policies.
    So I think this is a deeper issue. You know, whether it's 
the 12 members who participated in the event itself, whether 
it's the 3,000 UNRWA teachers who are celebrating this massacre 
and yet they're screaming for more aid to try and develop peace 
it's all a failure and a false premise.
    But I will tell you right now $343 million, Ms. Rudman, is 
a lot of money. When you're $34 trillion in debt, when you have 
no economic growth strategy in the United States that enables 
us to actually ensure that we have opportunities for the 
American citizens and which we serve, and when we're 
continually being pulled back into these kinetic elements of 
warfare whether it be in Iran, whether it be the Iraq and 
Afghan conflict, whether it be the Ukraine conflict, whether it 
be defending the 12 percent of global shipments through the Red 
Sea, the bottom line is that the time is now to start thinking 
about America.
    The time is now to start not looking at things as just 
business as usual across D.C. and the swamp.
    And so I'll tell you I absolutely support with full heart 
the end of funding to UNRWA and their destabilizing role that 
they've played within the Middle East.
    I'm one of the members who actually went over to Israel 
recently. You know, when the attack took place on October 7th I 
actually went over on October 11th and helped to rescue and 
evacuate 255 Americans, 96 by ground.
    I'm not sitting here having these 5-minute discussions for 
talking points so I can post on social media for clicks and 
likes. We have to have real effective change, and we have to 
acknowledge that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
    We have to acknowledge that Hezbollah is a terrorist 
organization under Hassan Nasrallah. We have to acknowledge 
that the Iranian-backed militias, whether it be through Qais 
Khazali or Hadi al-Amiri or Muqutada al-Sadr or any of the ones 
who are continuing to try and make the 150-plus attacks on 
American soldiers, the 30-plus attacks that's happened in our 
shipping lanes, or the three brave heroes that just lost their 
lives in the outpost in Tower 22, the 13 who lost their life on 
August 26, 2021, that many people want to forget in the botched 
withdrawals.
    Our domestic and foreign policy must change in America. It 
cannot be the decades and decades of failed policies that has 
either resulted in America training eight of the 11 coup 
leaders in Africa or whether it be funding organizations like 
UNRWA who continues to support terrorist activities that 
resulted in many people losing their lives.
    I stand with Israel's rights to defend itself and I stand 
with the American colleagues that are here who are willing to 
defund UNRWA and stop these terrorist organizations like Hamas 
from using our money to build the terrorist tunnels and 
continue these types of horrific attacks.
    With that, I hand back.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Mills.
    The chair now recognizes Ms. Dean.
    Ms. Dean. Thank you, Chairman Mast, and thank you, Chairman 
Smith, Ranking Member Crow, Ranking Member Wild, for holding 
this important hearing.
    Thank you to our witnesses for testifying and sharing your 
knowledge and expertise with us on this important matter.
    But let's remember we're here for the purpose of oversight. 
We are here, I hope, for the purpose of solutions, not just 
white washing or black washing or whatever kind of washing 
entire structures until and unless they deserve it.
    The allegations of the UNRWA employee involvement in the 
October 7th attack is deeply troubling--we can all agree upon 
that--and warrants a thorough and independent review.
    I too have traveled to Israel since the war 5 weeks into 
the war, visiting with Minister of Defense Gallant, visiting 
with our Ambassador, visiting with the prime minister, visiting 
with hostage families.
    What Israel suffered is unspeakable. There are no words. 
What I want to do now is to say that is a truth that we must 
deal with but we also have to deal with the war, the 
prosecution of the war, and how do we keep people from famine--
a basic thing.
    Professor Rudman, I appreciated your five points and in 
your fifth point you indicated something that you had an idea--
I'm sort of jumping to the end of the story--that you had an 
idea of something or some structure that could be put in place 
around UNRWA to address the gravest needs that the people of 
Palestine, that the Gazans, are enduring and how we fulfill 
that both for Israel's security and our own national security 
interests.
    What were some of your ideas?
    Ms. Rudman. So I think there are any number of different 
structures, going forward. The challenge is the immediate 
period and how we get through that. In other words, people need 
to--now you cannot stand--that while I agree with some of the 
others on this panel that there are entities out there.
    Those entities are not currently set up to be able to move 
forward and get food and water in to the many, many innocent 
Palestinians in Gaza at this point.
    And so I think the two things need to happen in parallel. 
One, the investigations that the United States and others are 
calling for into how UNRWA--how this came to be with UNRWA--I 
know we have a variety of views on that here on this panel.
    But an investigation from outside of UNRWA. I think that 
the United States and Germany are two logical countries as the 
two biggest donors by some degree to UNRWA to carry out that 
kind of investigation.
    I think you could also go to former leaders of various U.N. 
entities. I think there's a leader of UNHCR who is quite 
familiar with what's been going on--with aspects on the ground 
from his prior experience.
    I would like to get his insights on how things could run--
what we could set up and in which ways. But the challenge is 
you have an immediate issue they need to address.
    Ms. Dean. Well, that's what I want to ask you.
    I agree with the pause, based on the reporting, but if the 
pause of funding to UNRWA is sustained--this abrupt pause is 
sustained--what is the outcome in Gaza?
    Ms. Rudman. If the funding does not resume we have people 
who will be starving and it's--because it's not just us. 
There's a number of countries that have followed the United 
States' lead on this. I understand that.
    But there is not enough funding going in to UNRWA to be 
able to feed people. It's that simple.
    Ms. Dean. On the question of educational materials it seems 
to me that should be something that pressure could be brought 
to bear to make that happen. Do you see a path to that?
    And Mr. Sheff also, do you see a path to that? Yes? First, 
Professor?
    Ms. Rudman. Sure. Yes, I think there are people working on 
it. People on this panel have.
    I think there are people in other countries in the region, 
some of whom were named as well by Mr. Sheff, and there are 
folks--there are people within Israel who have worked on 
changing their curriculum as well.
    So there's a route forward. That is not an UNRWA specific 
challenge, though. That's a broader challenge on Palestinian 
Authority curriculum as well.
    I also know you met with our Ambassador. You know, he's 
very committed as well to addressing this. So there are routes 
forward to doing that and I just put food and water as the more 
immediate pressure. But I understand the need to address this 
as well.
    Ms. Dean. Mr. Sheff, if you'll indulge me just a few more 
seconds.
    Mr. Sheff, what's the prospect of cleaning up the 
educational materials?
    Mr. Sheff. Sure. So very briefly then, it's a matter of 
will. It's as simple as that. This is not complicated. This is 
a matter of exchanging material in the textbooks, making sure 
that that is material of peace and tolerance.
    But I would argue, actually, if you'll allow me that this 
is about UNRWA and UNRWA made the choice--the choice--to teach 
the Palestinian Authority's curriculum. It did not have to.
    There are organizations around the world that do not teach 
the host nation curriculum because it is appalling--Yemen, the 
Houthi curriculum, just as an example.
    So they absolutely made that choice and not only that they 
created their own material to go with those textbooks which is 
equally as bad.
    Is it possible to be done? Yes. Really very simple, indeed. 
Curricula is changed all over the world all the time. Is there 
a will? I think there really ought to be, do not you?
    Ms. Dean. And to just conclude, I hope there is a will on 
this committee to get at the oversight, to get at the truth, 
and to get at solutions.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Sheff. Thank you, ma'am.
    Mr. Mast. The chair now recognizes Mr. Moran.
    Mr. Moran. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Before I get in some questions I just want to make clear 
that in my opinion under no circumstances should U.S. taxpayers 
be on the hook to pay organizations that work contrary to the 
economic and national security interests of the United States.
    UNRWA seems to be doing just that and that is highly 
unfortunate and we need to take a continued close look at this. 
Most notably, in connection with recent events in Israel UNRWA 
has a history of perpetuating the problem through 
indoctrination of children to hate Jews, instigate violence, 
hate the West, and in latest reports even hiring persons linked 
to the Hamas terrorist attack in Israel. It's totally 
unacceptable.
    Mr. Goldberg, I want to ask you a couple of questions in 
regard to that. I thought I understood Ms. Rudman to say that 
there's some--there's other organizations that exist but none 
of them really are equipped to do this work that UNRWA is 
doing.
    Is that the case or are there are other private 
organizations outside of U.N. control that can do substantially 
similar items and complete the same mission that UNRWA purports 
to do now?
    Mr. Goldberg. It is 100 percent false. How do I know that? 
This isn't the first time we have had a conflict in the world 
where we had to move quick funding for humanitarian support.
    The U.N. moves at our direction. U.N. agencies move at our 
direction and the money. Follow the money. Follow into 
conflict. We move very quickly when we want to to set up relief 
for people in need when there is crisis in the world. We have 
done that for decades. There are organizations that exist.
    I have heard this argument now repeatedly from members of 
the committee. UNRWA is indispensable. What's the alternative? 
If we cut it off we're going to just have horrific suffering 
and loss.
    Well, let me take that logical argument to the next level 
because this is really important. Hamas runs the health 
ministry in Gaza. Hamas runs the utilities in Gaza. Hamas runs 
the ministry of tourism and trade and economy in Gaza.
    My goodness, we have no alternative to Hamas, I guess. 
Hamas should stay.
    Is that the logical conclusion? Would any of those members 
say we want Hamas to stay in charge of Gaza--what's the 
alternative?
    No. So why would you make that case for the United Nations 
Hamas Relief and Works Agency?
    Mr. Moran. I agree with you, Mr. Goldberg and, frankly, I 
find it ironic that we're sitting here talking about supporting 
an organization that purports to support the plight of refugees 
when oftentimes they're the ones that are causing a lot of the 
suffering or at least contributing to the cause of the 
suffering by supporting organizations like Hamas.
    And I notice that when we talk about how you still--how 
UNRWA selects its employees they do some background checks. But 
those checks do not include checks that would exclude Hamas-
connected individuals. Is that true?
    Mr. Goldberg. Correct. If you look at their statement and 
the agreement we have with UNRWA they reference United Nations 
sanctions lists, not U.S.-designated foreign terrorist 
organizations and certainly not the U.S. intelligence 
community.
    Mr. Moran. Yes, and I think that--I hope that all of us on 
this committee would agree that when we look at what happened 
on October the 7th and subsequent to that and the plight of the 
refugees in this region the cause--the proximate cause, the 
single cause of that is Hamas and the hatred behind Hamas' 
attacks. Would you agree with that as well?
    Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Moran. So what's preventing the United States from 
redirecting the 300-plus million that's presently going to 
UNRWA to another organization that has no ties to terrorism, no 
ties to Hamas, that can accomplish much of the same thing?
    Mr. Goldberg. Political will.
    Mr. Moran. That's what I thought.
    Wouldn't it be better if we actually had the political will 
to turn away from entities and organizations like UNRWA that 
embrace organizations like Hamas and for the United States to 
say no, there is a better more strategic pathway that we can 
take and that is to support organizations that can accomplish 
the mission and are strategically aligned with our friends and 
allies and, frankly, with just morality itself? Would you agree 
with that?
    Mr. Goldberg. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Moran. Are you aware of any circumstances prior to the 
most recent firing of 12 employees, any of you on the panel, in 
which UNRWA employees have been removed from their position 
after publicly or privately making anti-Semitic statements or 
giving support to Hamas?
    Is anybody aware of any of that? Go ahead, sir.
    Mr. Neuer. I'm not aware of a single case, and we have 
talked about hundreds. We have talked about UNRWA teachers, 
school principals inciting to jihadi terrorism and the 
slaughter of Jews. I'm not aware of one case that UNRWA has 
communicated to us where they have fired that individual.
    Mr. Goldberg. I do recall one case of a headmaster of an 
UNRWA school who was moonlighting as an Islamic Jihad 
commander. He was removed by an Israeli air strike.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Moran. Well, that's one successful removal. Do any of 
you have any analysis on how the curriculum for these children 
when UNRWA goes in to educate children in these areas--how is 
that curriculum developed?
    And one of my big questions here is is there any part of 
the educational curriculum or programming that is overtly pro-
American or pro-Israeli that teaches the benefits of democracy?
    Mr. Sheff. So, you know, a really important question. The 
curriculum is developed in Ramallah; it is developed by the 
Palestinian Authority.
    And, you know, you had this moment actually between 2014 
and 2016 when the Middle East and many regions started looking 
at this school curriculum and that is when the United Arab 
Emirates, when Morocco, when other countries and Egypt, other 
countries, started making these decisions about the need to 
take out the hate, to take out the incitement, to create better 
societies of the future and this has been rolled out over years 
and now, as I said before, you know, there are really exemplary 
school curricula in the MENA region.
    The Palestinian Authority decided to go entirely in the 
opposite direction. Between 2014 and 2016 it spent an enormous 
amount of time and effort and money creating a curriculum that 
was even worse than the one that came before.
    Any ideas of peacemaking were entirely removed and what was 
left was a curriculum centered on jihad, centered on young 
people sacrificing themselves, centered on anti-Semitism, 
centered on hate, and that is the curriculum which UNRWA, a 
neutral United Nations organization, adopted as is without 
changing a line, a jot, a tittle of this school curriculum.
    And just to make sure it got rammed home they created their 
own supplementary material to go with it. So it comes from the 
Palestinian Authority. UNRWA adopted this and I need to say 
this again. They did not need to. It's supposed to be best 
practice to teach the host curriculum.
    There's no best practice about this curriculum and 
organizations all over the world make sure that they do not 
teach hate.
    UNRWA made a choice, a decision, to teach hate in its 
schools in Gaza and in the West Bank, and it is continuing to 
this day in the West Bank.
    We can stop this and we need to stop this.
    Mr. Moran. Thank you for your comments. I know my time's 
out.
    In conclusion I'll just say UNRWA is not a new 
organization. It's not a fledgling organization. It's been 
around for a long time. These are not negligent mistakes. These 
are intentional acts. We need to walk away from this 
organization.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Moran.
    I now recognize Mr. Schneider.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman.
    I want to thank both our chairs and the ranking members for 
holding this hearing. I want to thank the witnesses not just 
for your testimony here today but for your lifetime of work 
addressing this important issue.
    Mr. Neuer, you noted in your opening remarks, and I agree, 
no one should be surprised about the recent report of UNRWA 
complicity with Hamas. We have been talking about this for 
years if not decades.
    Recent reports estimate that more than 10 percent of UNRWA 
employees are affiliated with Hamas. But, in fact, according to 
what I read in those reports it's worse among men. It's 
estimated that 29 percent of the men working for UNRWA have 
affiliation with Hamas and approximately half the employees 
have at least one family member affiliated with Hamas.
    On October 7th, as we have just talked about today, at 
least 12 UNRWA employees crossed a new line actively taking 
part in the horrific attack of Israeli communities near the 
Gaza border, brutally murdering more than 1,200, countless 
cases of torture, rape, mutilation, UNRWA's employees involved 
with taking hostages back, more than 250 people taken hostage.
    And let me pause here to note that there are 130 people 
still--more than 130 people still held in Gaza now more--for 
more than 116 days, and the path to deescalation starts with 
the immediate release of all these hostages. That's what we 
should be calling for and we should be saying that now.
    But Hamas has no interest in deescalation or in peace. 
Hamas is a nihilistic genocidal terrorist organization founded 
on and dedicated to the principle of the destruction of Israel 
and the murder of Jews.
    Which brings us back to the topic of UNRWA we are 
discussing today. No one who's been watching Gaza can be 
surprised by the reports. No one should be surprised by the 
extent.
    Yesterday's report showed the pervasiveness of the 
integration of Hamas and Hamas ideology within the fabric of 
UNRWA. It's a systemic problem. We should not be asked to 
accept a Hamas-UNRWA link simply as the cost of ensuring 
humanitarian relief gets to Palestinian civilians.
    Mr. Goldberg, you said it in your opening remarks. There 
are other organizations.
    Ms. Rudman, you talked about the uniqueness of UNRWA. What 
I do not understand is that uniqueness. Why is there but one 
organization established by the U.N. that for 75 years has kept 
people in refugee camps, preventing them from rising up to a 
life and a standard of living that they see among their 
neighbors?
    Why is it that one organization is focused on this single 
point when there are another organization, UNHCR, who can 
address the rest of the world? I do not think we have to accept 
this.
    I do not think it's right that an organization charged with 
doing good should be allowed to be a cover for terrorism and 
that's why we're talking today about what should happen to 
UNRWA.
    I think there's consensus--I hope there's consensus--that 
the services provided, the feeding of people who are hungry, 
providing good education to a population--you talked about it.
    How can we give an education that teaches the aspirations 
of democracy, of integration into a world society that sees 
success for all nations and not the destruction of perceived 
enemies?
    This is the handle or this is the challenge. Now, we are in 
a crisis. There is a war. People need to get that humanitarian 
relief. We have to find another way.
    Again, Mr. Goldberg, you talked about it today. We have 
shown that we can do this in the past. We have to replace UNRWA 
with something else.
    There are organizations prepared to do that. My question as 
we talked about it--because it's not just food. It's 
desalinization of water. It's handling of sewage. It's the 
provision of shelter and, obviously, education.
    There are other organizations but based on Mission Order 21 
a lot of these organizations are prohibited for dealing with 
Hamas, having any contact with Hamas. The reality is Hamas is 
there.
    Can we get support from organizations like the World Food 
Programme to bring more help, more flour and bread and food? 
Can we work with the Office of Coordination of Humanitarian 
Affairs to assist with emergency coordination?
    I support getting rid of UNRWA. I support the 
Administration's decision to suspend it. But my question is, as 
I have 29 seconds left, are there ways to deal with this, to 
get around this prohibition of having any contact whatsoever 
with Hamas?
    I'll leave that with the last few seconds.
    Ms. Rudman?
    Ms. Rudman. So I think what you're talking about is the 
U.S. prohibition and in fact there has been assistance that has 
gone in for things like water and electricity which is not 
controlled as directly as some others might have said.
    But each municipality in Gaza the rules for the United 
States go to kind of who controls the municipality and there 
have been times when we have had Administrations that have 
waived the requirements.
    For example, there are very technical people who carry out 
the--what's needed to get clean water in and out and they are 
employees of a municipality that might be controlled by Hamas. 
The United States has at times waived prohibitions to allow 
those people to be involved in us trying to get water in.
    Mr. Schneider. And I'm going to reclaim my time just 
because I'm over time and I want to give others a chance.
    But we cannot let obstacles block us from replacing UNRWA 
and getting to a situation where we are taking care of the 
civilians in Gaza but not supporting terrorism.
    And with that, I yield back.
    Mr. Mast. The chair now recognizes Mr. Hill.
    Mr. Hill. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, panel, for being 
with us today. Thank you for both our chairmen of our 
subcommittees for holding this important hearing. I'm grateful 
to you.
    And what a disgrace UNRWA has become. You know, I was 
thinking about the whole world that the U.N. attempts to 
provide care and service to. You know, think about it. It's a 
massive task.
    And yet UNRWA has a budget of about almost a billion 
dollars, employs 30,000 people, 13,000 of which I think are in 
Gaza or were, and then the Commission on Refugees, taking care 
of the whole rest of the world, has a budget of $10 billion and 
just 18,000 employees. Let that sink in.
    Mr. Goldberg, you know, what's wrong with this picture? 
Could the U.N. Commissioner on Refugees handle this work and 
just abandon, since of all the countries are disgusted with 
that $806 million or close to a billion dollars with UNRWA?
    Why does not this just get transferred to the U.N. 
Commission on Refugees? Let's pick a handful out of the 13,000 
that are effective. What do you think?
    Mr. Goldberg. That has been the obvious solution for 
decades but for the United Nations' inherent systemic 
structural bias against Israel, support for UNRWA's mission of 
trying to instigate incitement against Israel, that is the only 
reason that hasn't happened.
    Mr. Hill. So you're charging that the U.N. itself is the 
most anti-Semitic organization on the planet. Is that what 
you're saying?
    Mr. Goldberg. One hundred percent correct, documented by 
U.N. Watch and others.
    But I would say--Ms. Rudman said something before and it's 
very, very much a flag. Don't go to ask U.N. High Commissioner 
for Refugees is it OK--would you like to do this?
    The U.N. Secretary General is already circling the wagons 
to defend UNRWA. If you ask the United Nations, what do you 
think, the U.N.--we know what they think. They hate Israel. We 
tell them what to do. Our taxpayer dollars lead the way, not 
the other way around.
    Mr. Hill. Thank you, and I thank you for that.
    I want to shift to Mr. Sheff. Thank you for testifying. I 
spent a lot of time looking at curriculum--education 
curriculum--most of the time in Egypt. I'll say that's an area 
that I've spent quite a bit of time.
    And you see--you've reported in your testimony some 
successful curriculum changes in the UAE, Saudi Arabia, 
Morocco. Mr. Moran was just talking about this.
    And, you know, even though the Commission on Religious 
Freedom has done a particular study on the Egyptian education 
system still we struggle with proper terminology and proper 
framing for Christianity and the Coptic Church, for example, in 
Egypt.
    How did you find the countries that have broken the code 
and found success? What was the key point on that that you 
would share?
    Mr. Sheff. A really good question, sir, and I'll try to 
answer it very, very briefly because it's such a big subject.
    In fact, though, just refer back to the point you made 
before. UNRWA is, frankly, not even good at this distribution 
job. Last Saturday, they actually asked if there would be a 
stoppage of trucks going through Kerem Shalom because they 
couldn't cope with the volume.
    So let us not think that this is actually their area of 
expertise. It really isn't.
    Two, in relation to curricula countries change their 
curricula for their own reasons, not to make the United States 
or anybody else proud of them or happy for them but because 
they want to create societies of the future which makes sense 
to them.
    You know, for MBS it is about Vision 2030. It is about a 
Saudi Arabia that is more open, that is able to trade with the 
world, that is less dependent on oil and gas, and there's no 
question that a curriculum which prepares young people in a 
tolerant, open, peaceful way will go a long way to a country 
which in 2030 will be more able to do that.
    The UAE--Mohamed bin Zayed made exactly that determination 
in 2011 and drove a quite remarkable change because that is the 
UAE he wanted to see, and anybody who's spent time in Dubai, in 
any other parts of the UAE, can see how successful that has 
been.
    Egypt----
    Mr. Hill. Well, I would hope then that leaders in those 
countries would help lead the change in these reluctant 
countries including--let me say, I'm a proud supporter of 
Christian education in the West Bank through the Catholic 
Church and yet history starts at 600 A.D. and I'm not sure if 
that's the right way to teach history.
    So let me yield back.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Hill.
    The chair now recognizes Mr. McCormick.
    Mr. McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll make this fast 
because I got a lot to go over.
    We have talked a lot today about the 12 UNRWA employees but 
those 12 employees are just the tip of the iceberg when you 
talk about possibly thousands of employees loyal to Hamas and 
anti-Semitic and anti-American interests.
    Over the years this organization that we spend about 28 
percent of the U.N.'s budget is supported by the United States 
and yet this organization has thousands of allegations of child 
trafficking, rape, murder, theft, embezzlement, with almost no 
accountability.
    I was in Uganda in 1994 as part of Operation Restore Hope. 
Watched the U.N. leave and watched almost a million people be 
killed. And if you look at the U.N.'s history and their 
involvement in foreign countries, let me list some of them: 
Congo, Somalia, Rwanda, Libya, Angola, Sierra Leone, Sudan, 
Haiti, Afghanistan, Bosnia-Herzegovina, Yemen, Iraq, Iran, just 
to name a few. How's that been going?
    Mr. Neuer, there have been hundreds of resolutions of the 
United Nations condemning Israel. How many have condemned the 
Palestinian Administration?
    Mr. Neuer. I am not aware----
    Mr. McCormick. The one they condemned--the one that was run 
by Hamas, by the way.
    Mr. Neuer. I'm not aware of any resolution condemning 
Palestinian----
    Mr. McCormick. Nor am I, but there have been hundreds 
against Israel, usually in the double digits per year. This is 
the United Nations, by the way--the United Nations, that 
organization which we fund 28 percent of.
    I know that UNRWA oversees Gaza's educational system and 
for years has sanctioned the textbooks used that have, quote, 
encouraged to sacrifice their blood to liberate Jerusalem, with 
terms such as, quote, jihad warriors, including the attempting 
to erase Israel's existence and legitimacy.
    I know that you, Mr. Neuer, have been against the 
appointment and nomination of Mr. Pierre along with 18,000 
other folks.
    Can you tell me exactly why Mr. Krahenbuhl should be 
opposed?
    Mr. Neuer. Thank you, Congressman.
    Look, the Red Cross on its own has failed to meet with any 
of the hostages that are being held in Gaza and that is 
shameful.
    In addition, beyond their diplomatic failure in their 
public statements we have counted 10 to one their statements 
are in favor of the Hamas narrative and biased against Israel.
    The notion that they would now appoint Pierre Krahenbuhl, 
the former head of UNRWA who was forced to resign in disgrace, 
is shocking and we oppose it.
    He was forced to resign in 2019 in wake of a major 
corruption, abuse of power, and ethics scandal which included 
allegations that he had a very inappropriate relationship with 
one of his staffers who was paid $200,000 a year and the Swiss 
government paid for it.
    Several countries suspended funding in 2019 in the wake of 
the scandal including Switzerland, Belgium, and the 
Netherlands, and his response was to say he was cleared of the 
charges, he claimed, in a Swiss TV broadcast. He said it was a 
conspiracy.
    The implication of this broadcast was that it was a 
conspiracy between the U.S., Israel, and the Swiss foreign 
minister to besmirch UNRWA.
    But the reality is that even people who like UNRWA said 
it's false, that he was not cleared of the charges. The UNRWA 
ethics inspector Lex Takkenberg and Professor Ricardo Bocco, 
both of them leading supporters of UNRWA, said Pierre 
Krahenbuhl was not cleared of the charges.
    So the notion that the Red Cross would appoint this person 
is shameful and I just want to say in closing that the Swiss 
newspaper Le Temps Luis Lema wrote three parts in 
investigation.
    He wrote that the allegations of corruption are all valid. 
There was terrible corruption in UNRWA but no one wants to talk 
about it because it might help the U.S. and Israel in their 
criticisms. No one wants to talk about it.
    Mr. McCormick. So this is what--I want to sum this up. We 
spend about $13 billion per year right now on the United 
Nations, the leading funder by far, and this is an organization 
that has tons of corruption, tons of appointees that are anti-
American, anti-Semitic.
    I want to call not on just to question what we spend on 
UNRWA but on the United Nations in general--a top down review. 
I'm talking about all spending.
    I'm very much in favor of ceasing all spending until they 
get their stuff straight, until they prove they're not corrupt, 
until they prove they're not anti-American and anti-Semitic.
    If you want to help people out of trouble whether you be in 
Gaza or Palestine or anywhere else in the world how about we 
start with organizations that are not corrupt, not anti-
Semitic, and not anti-American?
    That's a better investment. It is a time for a change. It 
is a time for a choice and let's start there.
    With that, I yield.
    Mr. Mast. The chair now recognizes Mr. Issa.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. Rudman, you had several things you wanted to answer and 
I--no one's asked you a question in a while. So I'd like--with 
your distinguished career at the State Department--the State 
Department has about a $70 billion budget--you controlled in 
your time about a $1.8 billion budget plus or minus.
    So you're familiar with large budgets, you're familiar with 
development, and you're a specialist in the Middle East. Is 
that a fair reducing of your long career?
    Ms. Rudman. Thanks. I appreciate it. I was actually only at 
State for a couple of years and stayed in AID role which you're 
referencing.
    Mr. Issa. Right.
    Ms. Rudman. But I spent a lot of time working on budgets. 
That's fair.
    Mr. Issa. But, you know, looking at your history I want to 
ask you some questions because I'd like to touch on something, 
which is the day after. OK.
    We're not going to give UNRWA another penny during 
whatever--however long this kinetic conflict goes on in the 
region and when we go to startup again on the people of Gaza, 
the 2 million people of Gaza, things are going to have to be 
different.
    So from your State Department time and your private sector 
time is it fair to say that--and I'm going to ask everyone this 
question--is it fair to say that there are sources of people 
who can be skilled educators who can help teach the children of 
Gaza in a balanced way what the world is and could be?
    Ms. Rudman. Yes, there are sources of people including many 
Palestinians in Gaza if you did not have Hamas as the de facto 
ruler.
    Mr. Issa. Well, I'm going to agree to disagree on that 
group being able to do it unless they're supervised at a very 
close level by people who have a demonstrated history that 
would say they're not going to go down that road.
    I'm not going to disagree with you that in any program, and 
you've seen some of them, we generally have some local 
employees. As I like to say, you know, I have no problem with 
someone carrying a bag of cement, you know, in a construction 
project being a local. I do have a problem with UNRWA 
overseeing goods and services coming into Gaza that got used to 
produce weapons that were stored in their facilities.
    So I'm going to ask the same question, Mr. Goldberg, and 
for that matter any other witness for a moment. You are critics 
of UNRWA but you're also critics of everything that has been 
taught to a generation of people in Gaza.
    In a short way isn't it fair to say that if America is 
going to take leadership there are two things we have to do?
    One is we have to find the supervisors for the teachers and 
the teachers who will teach the next generation of Palestinians 
other than hate and, two, that the United Nations has not 
historically demonstrated ability to be that NGO that can do 
that.
    Is there anyone that disagrees with those two assumptions, 
that the record of U.N. is poor and that we must change the 
teachers of the children of the next generation of 
Palestinians? Any----
    Mr. Goldberg. No disagreement.
    Mr. Issa. OK.
    Mr. Sheff. No disagreement, just to say there are services 
skilled pedagogues in MENA who can be helpful. You need to 
change the textbooks. You need teacher guides. You need to 
train the teachers. You need accountability. You need 
transparency. It can be done.
    Mr. Issa. And just quickly, the top funders--the people who 
are giving the money for UNRWA--it's an interesting who's who 
with the United States being such a large one, followed by 
Germany and in the top six is Japan.
    What's amazing to me is a vast amount of the funding comes 
from Germany and Japan. It comes from countries who themselves 
went from teaching hate to in a generation being leaders for 
freedom and democracy. Is that fair?
    And Ms. Rudman, I'd like your answer on that, that that 
piece of history is well demonstrated that we as Americans have 
led the proper training and emergence of democracy in the past 
and Germany and Japan are good examples.
    Ms. Rudman. I think they are good examples. I would note as 
well that the United States provided tremendous assistance to 
help them in getting to where they needed to go.
    Mr. Issa. But we did it, and this is my closing question. 
We did those conversions of the Italians, the Germans, the 
Japanese. We did it led by Americans, staffed by Americans and 
other allies, and then at a local level we vetted and found 
people who would cooperate with us and be part of it.
    That was what both in the European and in the MacArthur 
area made the difference. Is that the model that we should be 
considering for the day after this conflict?
    Mr. Sheff. Yes. Yes, absolutely, and I think there can be 
an involvement in MENA countries in that. You know, I think 
Germans who I'm speaking to are, you know, absolutely horrified 
about their efforts being turned into the horror show that 
education is.
    By the way, the Japanese are giving money specifically to 
scientific education. I wonder how they think about math being 
taught by adding up martyrs, about physics--Newton's Second Law 
being taught by telling young people to endanger themselves. 
So, yes, their efforts are being made into a joke, frankly.
    Mr. Issa. Ms. Rudman, is that--as a closing, is that 
something that all four of you can agree, that that model and 
that approach should at least be given serious consideration by 
our State Department?
    Ms. Rudman. I would support it being given serious 
consideration. I'd prioritize a little bit differently the 
immediate day after because I think getting basic needs in to 
people--there are not buildings for people to be taught in. 
There are not buildings for people to live in.
    Mr. Issa. And, Mr. Chairman, I think we not only agreed on 
what I asked to agree on but I would agree with the gentlelady 
that in fact the day after will have to be comprehensive. We 
cannot teach people to give up hate if we cannot help feed them 
and house them.
    And so I look forward to this committee, which has the lead 
role in that day after and, Chairman, thank you for your 
oversight. And I yield back.
    Mr. Mast. I thank the witnesses for their valuable 
testimony, members for their questions.
    Members of the subcommittee may have some additional 
questions for the witnesses and we will ask you to respond to 
those in writing.
    I now recognize Mr. Crow for any closing remarks that he 
may have.
    Mr. Crow. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you for convening this 
meeting and to our witnesses today for the very robust 
discussion.
    I'm going to keep it short because we have votes that we 
have to run to. But the bottom line for me is I'm deeply 
troubled by the allegations against UNRWA and believe that 
those allegations must be addressed and that very well may take 
the form of disbanding and replacing it with a different 
entity.
    But I'm equally--as deeply troubled by any action that 
would further deepen the catastrophic conditions on the ground 
for innocent civilians, right.
    So for me the issue is very simple--how do we address these 
allegations and the challenges that have been well documented 
but make sure that we continue a flow or an increase a flow of 
aid to the suffering Palestinians in Gaza.
    And I look forward to working with everybody to try to 
figure out what are the solutions to get us there and we need 
to bridge this, right, because there's a time line challenge.
    If we cutoff funding to UNRWA I think there's a very real 
debate and I, frankly, do not think that there are entities 
right now that can fill the exact services that are being 
provided by UNRWA.
    So how do we bridge that gap is the challenge to make sure 
that people that are starving now do not die. With that, I 
yield back.
    Mr. Mast. The chair now recognizes Mr. Smith for a closing 
statement.
    Mr. Smith. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman.
    And without objection the testimony from Dr. Debbie Soffen, 
who is the first child abuse--first child advocate, I should 
say, for the Wiesenthal Center will be made a part of the 
record.
    [The information referred to follows:]

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    Mr. Smith. I want to just point out for the record that 
decades ago Dr. Soffen, who's a pediatrician, brought to my 
attention some of the most horrific things that were happening 
by UNRWA which just blew my mind in terms of the hatred that 
was being conveyed to these children.
    And, again, you got to be taught. They're being taught and 
they'll keep getting taught. You know, we--and, Mr. Goldberg, 
you made a very good point about how we know how to set up 
emergency situations for refugees.
    We have been doing it forever, and the United States takes 
the lead not just in funding it but doing it. I remember when 
the Kurds left--in Operation Provide Comfort. They got out to 
the border of Turkey.
    Our military in that case, especially from a humanitarian 
point of view, provided food, clothing, medicine, and saved the 
lives of so many people.
    There are ways to do it. Hamas is disgraced. So is its 
proxy or its identical twin and that would be UNRWA. They have 
disqualified themselves and if we cannot during this terrible 
time when they have proven themselves beyond any reasonable 
doubt to be absolutely anti-Semitic but even more than that 
they have taught these kids to hate. That cycle will never be 
broken if we in any way, shape, or form countenance any further 
support for UNRWA.
    Let's find the alternative. Let's do it. Let's put our 
minds to it and our money in order to save lives and to save 
these children from child abuse.
    Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Smith. I now recognize myself for 
a closing statement.
    I want to start by a word of thanks for many. I want to 
start by thanking President Trump, No. 1, for being the first 
to have the stones to defund UNRWA. He went out there and he 
did it. He saw the writing on the wall and he went out there 
and did it.
    I want to thank the witnesses for their testimony today 
which show to be that to have been a correct course of action. 
You all provided vital information, context, raised important 
questions about UNRWA and UNRWA has a lot to answer for.
    We reached out to UNRWA's Commissioner General Mr. Philipe 
Lazzarini requesting that he appear before this committee and 
the American people.
    In his response, which I will introduce for the record, 
while declining to appear publicly Mr. Lazzarini goes on to 
tell us a number of things, that UNRWA is committed to 
neutrality, he said--that UNRWA conducts quarterly integrated 
assessments of their installations and to ensure adherence to 
neutrality.
    I guess these assessments must have somehow missed the 
missiles, the weapons, the anti-Semitic textbooks in the 
schools, and the terrorist tunnels being built underneath them.
    He must have missed that 10 to 15 percent of the employees 
are tied to Hamas. The letter goes on to tell us that UNRWA has 
a zero tolerance policy with regard to staff neutrality and yet 
we know that at least 1,200 UNRWA staffers have direct ties to 
Hamas and other terrorist organizations and at least 12 
staffers who were directly involved in the October 7 attacks.
    My assessment today is that the Administration will likely 
ignore the facts and go back to funding UNRWA at some point and 
I say what was said here before. I'll repeat what was said in 
this hearing essentially.
    I'm going to say this--I'm going to paraphrase the way that 
I interpreted this. There are many here that are not here to 
defend UNRWA but they will support continuing to give UNRWA the 
earnings--the dollars--of the American people with no threshold 
for bad behavior.
    That cannot be the course of action for Congress, for the 
Administration, for America whatsoever. I can tell you that to 
expect, moving forward, we will be introducing legislation to 
claw back any recent dollars that were sent to UNRWA.
    And in that I thank again the witnesses for their 
testimony. Pursuant to committee rules all members may have 
five legislative days to submit statements, questions, and 
extraneous materials for the record subject to length 
limitations.
    And without objection, this committee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:37 p.m., the subcommittees adjourned.]

                                APPENDIX
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                   MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
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            RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
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