[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]






                  THE BORDER CRISIS: THE COST OF CHAOS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                   SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY,
                    THE BORDER, AND FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                                 of the

                         COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
                           AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                           SEPTEMBER 25, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-134

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability






    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]






                       Available on: govinfo.gov 
                         oversight.house.gov or 
                             docs.house.gov 
                             
                             
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                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
                 
56-967 PDF                   WASHINGTON : 2024 
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman

Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking 
Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas                 Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Ro Khanna, California
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Katie Porter, California
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Cori Bush, Missouri
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Shontel Brown, Ohio
Byron Donalds, Florida               Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Robert Garcia, California
William Timmons, South Carolina      Maxwell Frost, Florida
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Greg Casar, Texas
Lisa McClain, Michigan               Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Dan Goldman, New York
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Nick Langworthy, New York            Ayanna Pressley, Massachesetts
Eric Burlison, Missouri
Mike Waltz, Florida

                                 ------                                
                       Mark Marin, Staff Director
       Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
                        Sloan McDonagh, Counsel
                 Billy Grant, Professional Staff Member
      Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5074

                  Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director
                      Contact Number: 202-225-5051
                                 ------                                

   Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs

                  Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin, Chairman
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Robert Garcia, California, Ranking 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Minority Member
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Dan Goldman, New York
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Katie Porter, California
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Cori Bush, Missouri
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Maxwell Frost, Florida
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Vacancy
Vacancy                              Vacancy























                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                                                                   Page

Hearing held on September 25, 2024...............................     1

                               WITNESSES

                              ----------                              

Dr. Steven Camarota, Director of Research, Center for Immigration 
  Studies
Oral Statement...................................................     5

Mr. Chris Clem, former Chief Patrol Agent (Yuma Sector - Retired 
  2022), U.S. Border Patrol
Oral Statement...................................................     7

Mr. Adam Isacson (Minority Witness), Director for Defense 
  Oversight, Washington Office on Latin America
Oral Statement...................................................     9

Written opening statements and statements for the witnesses are 
  available on the U.S. House of Representatives Document 
  Repository at: docs.house.gov.

                           INDEX OF DOCUMENTS

                              ----------                              

  * Article, The Marshall Project, ``Missing Crime Data''; 
  submitted by Rep. Biggs.

  * Article, Fox News, ``Nearly 530,000 Migrants Paroled Under 
  Biden Programs''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.

  * Document, INA 212(d) (5) (A), Parole Statute; submitted by 
  Biggs.

  * Report, Homeland Security Committee, ``Abuse of CBP One 
  App''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.

  * Report, CBP Statistical Data Southwest Land Border 
  Encounters; submitted by Rep. Biggs.

  * Annual Report, SLED, ``Crime in South Carolina''; submitted 
  by Rep. Mace.
                           INDEX OF DOCUMENTS

                              ----------                              

  * Document, Charleston County Sheriff's Office Policy and 
  Procedures Manual; submitted by Rep. Mace.

  * Detainer Acceptance Tracker, USCIS, Non-Cooperative 
  Institutions; submitted by Rep. Mace.

  * ERO-LESA Statistical Tracking Unit, Charleston County, N.C.; 
  submitted by Rep. Mace.

  * Letters, re: Sheriff Kristin Graziano; submitted by Rep. 
  Mace.

  * Photo, Sheriff Graziano Terminating 287(g) Agreement; 
  submitted by Rep. Mace.
  * Press Release, Charleston County Sheriff Kristin Graziano; 
  submitted by Rep. Mace.

  * Twitter Header of Sheriff Kristin Graziano; submitted by Rep. 
  Mace.

  * Article, U.S. News, ``Migrants Flooding NYC Justice System''; 
  submitted by Rep. Sessions.

  * Article, New York Post, ``Migrants Accused of Crimes Still 
  Eligible for Shelters''; submitted by Rep. Sessions.

  * Article, Fox News, ``Border Patrol apprehends 50,000 migrants 
  in August, down from the record 250,000 in December''; 
  submitted by Rep. Garcia.

  * Article, NPR, ``Immigrants are Less Likely to Commit Crimes 
  Than U.S.-Born Americans, Studies Find''; submitted by Rep. 
  Garcia.

  * Article, L.A. Times, ``Many Americans Believe Migrants Bring 
  Fentanyl Across the Border. That is Wrong and Dangerous''; 
  submitted by Rep. Garcia.

Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.

 
                  THE BORDER CRISIS: THE COST OF CHAOS

                              ----------                              


                     Wednesday, September 25, 2024

                     U.S. House of Representatives

               Committee on Oversight and Accountability

   Subcommittee on National Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs

                                           Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:10 p.m., in 
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Glenn Grothman 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Grothman, Gosar, Foxx, Sessions, 
Biggs, Mace, Garcia, and Porter.
    Mr. Grothman. This hearing of the Subcommittee on National 
Security, the Border, and Foreign Affairs will come to order. 
Welcome, everyone.
    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any 
time.
    I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening 
statement.
    The Biden-Harris Administration's open border policies have 
led to the worst border crisis in American history, by a mile. 
Millions of illegal immigrants have entered the United States 
under the Biden-Harris Administration in a short period of 
time, affecting every community across the country. This was 
not the result of so-called root causes in Central America, as 
Kamala Harris has said. Individuals from all over the world 
have entered the U.S. under the Biden-Harris Administration 
because they can. Obviously, we have the greatest country in 
the history of the world right now, I guess you could say, and 
it is not surprising that the whole world wouldn't try to come 
here.
    In the first 7 months of Fiscal Year 2024, nearly half of 
the inadmissible aliens encountered at the Southwest border 
were from countries other than Mexico, the Northern Triangle 
countries, and Nicaragua. I should point out that by the end of 
September, we already had the all-time record number of people 
coming across the Southern border, so whatever we get across 
when the numbers are released in September will only add to the 
record.
    This crisis did not result from lack of authority. The 
Biden Administration has all the tools it needs to end this 
crisis. For example, it can reinstate the Trump 
Administration's policies that worked, such as Remain in Mexico 
and detention rather than mass release of illegal immigrants. 
They could continue to build the wall, which a Border Patrol 
agent told us is a force multiplier in the mission to secure 
the border. The Senate border bill, Vice President Harris vows 
to sign into law, certainly would not have helped. It would 
have codified the catch-and-release policies of the Biden-
Harris Administration that caused this crisis in the first 
place and allowed up to 1.8 million illegal immigrants to enter 
per year before temporarily closing parts of the border.
    The Biden-Harris Administration's refusal to secure the 
border and, instead, allow millions of poorly vetted aliens 
from all over the world to be released is not without cost, 
both human and economic. Illegal immigrants released into the 
U.S. by the Biden-Harris Administration have gone on to commit 
violent crimes against Americans. These murders, rapes, 
burglaries, and violent assaults should never have happened. 
Under the Biden Administration, foreign gangs are running 
rampant in our communities. It is not just MS-13. According to 
DHS, a new violent gang has spread from the communist regime in 
Venezuela--Tren de Aragua--across the United States. This gang 
has been described as MS-13 on steroids. When a mob of illegal 
immigrants stormed the border in El Paso in March, over 100 
were suspected members of the gang. The Biden-Harris 
Administration has released 617,000 illegal immigrants with 
known criminal backgrounds. That does not even include the 
almost 2 million illegal aliens who evaded apprehension 
entirely. We do not know where these got-aways are, what their 
criminal histories are, or what their intentions are.
    In addition to the real tragic costs of this border crisis, 
there have been significant fiscal costs. Estimates show that 
despite paying some taxes, illegal aliens are a net drain on 
America. Experts estimate each illegal immigrant costs the 
taxpayer roughly $68,000. They use more public services than 
they contribute in taxes. The Biden-Harris Administration's 
weak job growth numbers are further diluted by the fact that 
the majority of those jobs have gone to foreign-born workers. 
In the past 12 months, U.S.-born workers lost more than 1.3 
million jobs where foreign born workers gained over 1.2 
million. I will tell you, during the first 20 years of my 
political career in Wisconsin, I would again and again have the 
lobbyist for the carpenters' union in my office, begging us to 
do something about all the illegal immigrants here using Social 
Security cards, stealing the jobs, the good union jobs, my 
friend would say, stealing the good union jobs from carpenters.
    There is already a housing crisis in this country. 
Estimates state that the U.S. is 4 million to 7 million housing 
units short of where they should be. So, not only do illegal 
immigrants compete for Americans for jobs, but also compete 
with Americans for housing. The Biden-Harris Administration's 
mass release of illegal immigrant in our country is not in the 
interest of the American people. We cannot afford 4 more years 
of a chaotic border.
    I should point out that in America, we are not anti-
immigrant. Every year, about 850,000 new citizens are sworn 
into our country. If you look at it, sometimes there is a 
spike, but if you look at it in 3-year increments, there has 
never been a time in our history in which we have had more 
people sworn in as new immigrants. And what do we get for being 
so gracious and allowing so many people in this country? We get 
kicked in the face by having all other people coming here 
anyway.
    Well, there is my opening statement, and I will call upon 
my Ranking Member, Mr. Garcia.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our 
witnesses also for being here.
    You know, I think that, obviously, all folks in Congress, 
Republicans and Democrats, want a safe and secure border. I 
think what we have are different approaches to how we treat 
immigrants, a humane system, and ensuring we do not go back to 
a process that was inhumane to people that are oftentimes 
struggling and just seeking a better life. We do not want to go 
back to family separation, to Muslim bans, to undermining our 
asylum system. And we know we can achieve a comprehensive goal 
that both has secure border, but also a plan for immigrants 
that are here in this country and are working hard to 
contribute to our economy and to our country.
    Now, legal pathways to ensure an orderly and humane process 
are important. I strongly support legal immigration because we 
are a Nation of immigrants. Immigrants are some of the most 
patriotic people I know in our country. They make our 
communities stronger. They work hard. They build our country. I 
am an immigrant. I came to this country as a young child. I 
love America. I think it is the best country on Earth. When I 
raised my right hand, it was the proudest day of my life, and I 
am giving back to this country--I try to--every single day, and 
the same is true for everyone in my family who are also 
immigrants. But I also want to be clear why I think we are here 
today. It is because some folks in Congress, and certainly 
Donald Trump, think that bashing immigrants will win this 
election.
    Now, 2 weeks ago, during a bizarre debate performance, we 
saw, of course, the former President repeat manufactured 
conspiracies about immigrants, and in this case, Haitian 
immigrants in Ohio. As we now remember his horrible quote, 
``They are eating the dogs, the people that came in, they are 
eating the cats, they are eating the pets of the people that 
live here, and this is what is happening in our country, and it 
is a shame.'' Now, we know that has been completely debunked. 
The Republican Governor of Ohio, the Republican mayor of the 
city, the city manager, and now even the woman that first made 
the claim, who is also a Trump supporter in Springfield, all 
have said that this was not true. Yet, the lie continues to be 
repeated. J.D. Vance and other Members of Congress have 
continued to amplify this xenophobic lie, and it is a shame. 
And we know it gets worse. We know that Haitian immigrants in 
Springfield also are overwhelmingly there on legal work 
permits. They are actually there legally and were invited by 
the state and the city to work, but that has not stopped J.D. 
Vance and Donald Trump from threatening to revoke their status 
and to allow a mass deportation agenda.
    Now, Donald Trump's rhetoric has been dividing us and 
stoking anti-immigrant hate, I believe, since he first came 
down that escalator in 2015 to announce that he thought 
Mexicans were rapists and murderers, and he says families like 
mine and other immigrants are poisoning the blood of this 
country. Those are the facts. Now, I am glad to say that the 
American people, however, do not buy that. A CBS poll found 
that only one-third of voters approve of Trump's claims about 
immigrants, and almost 65 percent believe his recent claims are 
false, which we know that they are. But here are some more 
facts. Donald Trump is not interested in border security. He 
killed the bipartisan border deal that was in front of the 
Congress. And the Biden-Harris Administration has taken robust 
action to secure the border, and we are now seeing the results 
of that. And there is no immigrant crime wave, and I 
respectfully disagree with the Chairman. In fact, our Nation is 
safer today and has less crime today than it did when Donald 
Trump left office. Those are the facts being reported by police 
departments across the country.
    And finally, I will reiterate I believe immigrants are 
inherently part of this country. They are the backbone of our 
country. They make our country safer, stronger and better. With 
that, I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. I have got to respond a little bit.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman, I move to strike.
    Mr. Grothman. I am sorry?
    Mr. Sessions. I move to strike, to speak.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. Go ahead.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman, I would be hopeful that this 
would not be a Trump bash hating ordeal, but if the gentleman 
is going to speak, he ought to speak factually correct. The 
reason why the ``bipartisan'' Senate deal was not done was 
because House Republicans, including myself and at least 30 
other Texans, said we would not vote for it. It had absolutely 
nothing to do with Donald Trump. And so, if the gentleman is 
going to make this all about politics, he at least ought to 
speak correctly instead of pushing falsehoods. Thank you very 
much, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. I just do want to comment on 
something, and I am disappointed, that my good friend, 
Congressman Garcia, would try to confuse the American public. I 
have been down at the border 8 times. When I go down there, I 
frequently talk to the people who are in charge of debriefing 
or doing a health inspection on the new immigrants. They have 
told me that it is common for women who are coming across the 
border to be sexually assaulted. That ought to concern us all. 
Instead, what has happened, when you try to bring up this idea 
that we want to stop the sexual assaults of women coming across 
the border, some Democrats say that this is a racial thing to 
say.
    Well, the border is, to a large extent, controlled by 
ruthless gangs, and it is very sad that the women who come here 
are being sexually assaulted. I do not know. Apparently, you 
are not supposed to say it, or you are going to be accused of 
racism. It has nothing to do with racism. It is pointing out, 
including all the other problems that you have with this 
massive border crossing, you are having women being assaulted 
by the Mexican gangs south of the Rio Grande. And if you go 
down there and talk to the people in charge of debriefing or 
whatever you would say, the people coming across, they will 
tell you that. So, it is not a racial statement. Donald Trump 
cares about women and does not like to see these women who are 
coming here sexually assaulted.
    Mr. Garcia. Now, Mr. Chairman, thank you. First of all, 
this is all a point of order. I mean, this is not a part of the 
way the hearing procedure works, but I will just respond. I do 
want to ask unanimous consent, since we are having this into 
the record, a September 17, 2024, article from Fox News titled, 
``Border Patrol apprehends 50,000 migrants in August, down from 
the record 250,000 in December.''
    And so, let us be also clear that it was the bipartisan 
border deal, which I was discussing, that President Biden got 
put in, that has actually dropped migrant crossings. Now we are 
back to historic lows because of that, and so everything I said 
was also factually correct. I think it is important to call out 
people that are also demonizing immigrants, and it is important 
that we stick to the facts. I was just purely responding to 
that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Mr. Biggs. If we are just going to have a discussion, I 
would like to weigh in.
    Mr. Garcia. So, are we going to go back to regular order 
or?
    Mr. Grothman. I guess, we should go back to regular order. 
We will go back to regular order now.
    Mr. Biggs. That is too bad. I wanted to weigh in, you know, 
as long as everybody is weighing in freestyle.
    Mr. Grothman [continuing]. Andy Biggs has great things to 
say. Well, your time to ask questions will be coming up soon.
    I am pleased to introduce our witnesses today. Dr. Steven 
Camarota, Director of Research for the Center for Immigration 
Studies, leading researcher on immigration issues. His work has 
been featured in national publications, including The New York 
Times and Washington Post. Look at that. You got a guy from The 
New York Times and Washington Post. Chris Clem served over 27 
years in U.S. Border Patrol in multiple locations across the 
border and at headquarters. He retired as the Chief Patrol 
Agent in charge of the Yuma Sector in Arizona on December 31, 
2022. And Adam Isacson, the Director for Defense Oversight at 
the Washington Office on Latin America, which monitors U.S. 
cooperation with Latin American security forces, as well as 
other security trends. I want to thank you for being here to 
testify today.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g) the witnesses will please 
stand and raise their right hand.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you 
are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God?
    [A chorus of ayes.]
    Mr. Grothman. Let the record show that the witnesses 
answered in the affirmative. Thank you. You may take a seat.
    Now, we will go to Mr. Camarota.

                      STATEMENT OF STEVEN CAMAROTA

                          DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH

                     CENTER FOR IMMIGRATION STUDIES

    Dr. Camarota. First, I would like to thank the Subcommittee 
for inviting me. As you say, my name is Steven Camarota. I am 
Director of Research at the Center for Immigration Studies. My 
testimony today will focus on the impact of illegal immigration 
on housing, public coffers, and American workers, but let me 
first turn to the unprecedented scale of recent illegal 
immigration.
    House Judiciary just last month reported that 5.6 million 
illegal immigrants have been released into the country since 
January 2021. These are all inadmissible aliens and under 
various categories. There have also been 1.7 million got-aways 
at the border in Fiscal Year 2021 to 2023. We do not know what 
it is for 2024. These are all people observed entering 
illegally but not stopped. Visa overstays also appear to be at 
record levels, but we do not have all the data.
    Now, all of these numbers represent new additions to the 
illegal immigrant population, but of course mortality, out 
migration, and legalizations each year offset these numbers to 
some extent. Still, I conservatively estimate that the illegal 
immigrant population has grown by 4 million since January 2021, 
based on data collected by the Census Bureau. This is almost 
certainly the fastest it has ever grown. All this illegal 
immigration has consequences.
    Turning first to housing, prior research shows that by 
increasing demand, immigration drives up cost for housing. My 
own analysis suggests that a 5-percentage-point increase in the 
share of a community comprised of recent immigrants will cause 
a 12-percent increase in what the average U.S.-born household 
pays in rent. Bottom line, this influx has impacted housing.
    Turning to the fiscal impact, using estimates developed by 
the National Academy of Sciences, we calculate that the 
lifetime fiscal drain, considering all the taxes an illegal 
immigrant may pay and all the services and costs they would 
create, is about $68,000 per illegal immigrant, or, if you 
like, $68 billion for each 1 million illegal immigrants. This 
drain is primarily due to the modest education levels of most 
illegal immigrants. An estimated 79 percent have no education 
beyond high school, which is about double the share of the U.S. 
born. This results in low average incomes, tax payments, and 
along with a significant amount of use of public services, 
including welfare programs, which they often receive on behalf 
of the U.S.-born children. But this drain is not because 
illegal immigrants are lazy. It is not because they all came 
for welfare. Most illegal immigrants, in fact, work. Rather it 
simply reflects what happens when you add large numbers of less 
educated people who have modest incomes to a modern economy 
that spends a lot on social services.
    Finally, let me touch on the labor market. First, the idea 
that illegal immigrants only do jobs that Americans do not want 
is false. Of the 474 occupations, as defined by the Department 
of Commerce, only 6 are majority immigrant, and we can find 
none that look to be majority illegal immigrant. There is good 
evidence that immigration, by increasing the supply of workers, 
reduces wages and employment for some American workers, though 
distinguishing the impact between legal and illegal is always 
challenging.
    But perhaps the most important thing to think about is this 
immigration is occurring in the context of the well-documented 
long-term increase in the share of working-class U.S.-born men 
not in the labor force, and they do not show up as unemployed 
because they are not actively looking for work. Let me give you 
one example. About 1 out of 9 U.S.-born men, 16 to 64, with no 
education beyond high school, was not in the labor force in 
1960. By 2000, it was 1 out of 4. Today, of these working age 
men, it is about 1 out of 3. Job competition with illegal 
immigrants is only part of the reason for this. However, 
tolerating large-scale illegal immigration has allowed 
employers and, frankly, policymakers to ignore this huge social 
problem. After all, why care about all the working-age 
Americans on the economic sidelines if we can just hire eager 
immigrants? But the huge increase in American men not in the 
labor force is linked to significant social problems, from drug 
overdose deaths to crime to suicide and alcoholism. Reducing 
illegal immigration would help force the country to deal with 
this huge problem in our labor market.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Grothman. Mr. Clem?

                        STATEMENT OF CHRIS CLEM

                 FORMER CHIEF PATROL AGENT, YUMA SECTOR

                           U.S. BORDER PATROL

    Mr. Clem. Good afternoon, Chairman, Members of the 
Committee. My name is Chris Clem. I am a retired Chief Patrol 
Agent of the U.S. Border Patrol. I began my career in 1995 in 
Lordsburg, New Mexico, as a GS-5 Border Patrol agent trainee, 
and retired 21 months ago as a Senior Executive Service Chief 
Patrol Agent in Yuma, Arizona. Therefore, my responses and 
testimony today will be based on the best recollection of my 
experiences and observations over the last 28 years.
    I spent most of my career along the Southwest border where 
I was a canine handler, collateral duty intelligence officer, 
firearms instructor, and I spent a few years in Washington, DC. 
and New Orleans, Louisiana. I was a career government employee 
who served under five Presidential administrations, starting 
under Clinton and ending under Biden. I was not a political 
appointee. I promoted through the ranks through competitive 
process and commanded four Border Patrol stations across New 
Mexico, Texas, and Arizona. I served as the Deputy Chief Patrol 
Agent, New Orleans Sector, El Paso Sector, and the Acting Chief 
in Big Bend Sector, before I was promoted to the Chief Patrol 
Agent in Yuma, Arizona 2 years before I retired.
    I spent time as an agent in remote locations as well as 
urban environments. And I can tell you, if you have been to one 
station, you have been to just one station. If you have been to 
one sector, you have been to one sector. Each location is 
different, its own set of unique circumstances, from terrain to 
infrastructure to communities and to threats. However, the one 
thing that is consistent across the spectrum, without border 
security, our agents, our community, the migrants, and our 
country, are vulnerable. While immigration and border security 
are closely related, they are not mutually exclusive. However, 
without proper border security in the form of physical 
security, Border Patrol agents, strong policies and 
consequences, the integrity of the immigration system is 
compromised, and the founding principles surrounding the rule 
of law can suffer.
    My statement testimony today will be focused on border 
security, to which I would be considered a subject matter 
expert. Immigration, as mentioned, is related, but can only be 
effective and efficient when the border is secured. This 
Committee and Congress have access to all the available data, 
and the staunch difference between the previous Administration 
the current is gut wrenching and jaw dropping. I understand not 
every threat to our great Nation will come directly across the 
border, but why would we be willing to even risk it?
    We know there are countless gaps and vulnerabilities 
created along the border, specifically our Southern border. We 
are on the heels of recent testimoneys from the FBI Director 
that indicate threats are real. With hot spots around the world 
and what has happened under the current Administration, there 
are more than enough reasons to secure our border and put back 
in place the plan as intended to include infrastructure, 
technology, and policies. We need the wall installed and 
completed where it makes sense, we need the technology 
installed as intended, and we need to increase the number of 
Border Patrol agents and border security personnel as requested 
by senior field leaders. It is also my opinion that a border 
security bill should be submitted as a standalone bill. This 
bill should be based on the needs of Border Patrol field 
chiefs, as required by their agents, to complete our security 
mission.
    In addition to the physical needs to secure our border, our 
agents' fleet is in dire straits, with upwards of 50 percent 
needing replacement. Our agents, when fully operational, spend 
more than half their time in their vehicles doing their job. We 
need to focus on funding on fleet and facilities for our 
agents, intelligence, and administrative staff, not just 
migrant processing. We must give our agents back the purpose of 
mission, use funding appropriately to support them over the 
inadmissible aliens.
    Immigration and Customs Enforcement investigations and 
detention agencies should also be included in this package. It 
is when this bill is signed into law, and then, and only then, 
should we have a separate immigration system overhaul. This 
will allow border security solutions to stand on the principle 
of American security and minimize the tradeoffs over outside 
interests for immigration reforms. A standalone border bill 
that addresses the obligation of the government to protect its 
borders and people will not only make us safer, but will also 
give a much-needed boost to the Border Patrol agents who have 
had to be put in the middle of this nightmare with little 
support and advocacy from this White House.
    For years, while working for the U.S. Government as a U.S. 
Border Patrol agent, and even more so today, I have said border 
security is national security and public safety. There have 
been far too many impacts to Americans and American cities by 
this border crisis to mention. I accept that immigration is 
emotional to so many, but we cannot conflate immigration with 
border security. If we took a strong focus on securing our 
border with real, proven solutions, we can make our country 
stronger and safer while reducing the risk as well as the 
impacts throughout the country, and then we can address the 
immigration needs of our country. We should always strive to 
remain that beacon of hope for those that are being persecuted 
and tortured, but beyond that, we should not put our country at 
risk. We can secure our border with commonsense and compassion 
that keeps our country safe.
    I want to thank you for the opportunity to speak today, and 
while much of my testimony is similar to one earlier this year, 
the fact is that fundamental needs of border security have 
still not been met. My full statement has been submitted for 
the record, and I look forward to your questions.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. Now Mr. Isacson.

                       STATEMENT OF ADAM ISACSON

                     DIRECTOR FOR DEFENSE OVERSIGHT

                   WASHINGTON OFFICE ON LATIN AMERICA

    Mr. Isacson. Chairman Grothman, Ranking Member Garcia, 
thank you for inviting me to speak with you today. I last 
testified in the House 10 months ago. Since then, the number of 
migrants entering Border Patrol custody has dropped by more 
than three-quarters. Fewer people came to the border in July 
and August than in 9 different months of the Trump 
Administration. As my written testimony explains, that is 
because two crackdowns have brought the numbers down for now, 
one in Mexico and one in the U.S. asylum system. Their effect 
will not be permanent, but they do give us all a moment of 
calm. Our hair is not on fire right now, we can have a chance 
to discuss better solutions, and I am going to advise against 
even more crackdowns.
    Over and over again, regardless of who is President, when 
there is a crackdown on migrants, the curve always shows a 
dive, a bottoming out, and then a recovery. You can see a chart 
in my written testimony of the past 10 years: crackdown, 
recovery, crackdown, recovery. Even during the Trump 
presidency, migration rose twice. You had sort of the caravan 
and family asylum seeker period in 2018 and 2019, punctuated by 
family separations in 2018, but that did not make that much of 
a difference.
    In mid-2019, Remain in Mexico did bring the numbers down, 
but then that had leveled off by the fall, and into spring 2020 
was leveled off, and then COVID came and closed the world's 
borders. The second increase was the last 8 or 9 months of the 
Trump Administration. Title 42 was in effect, but from April 
2020 onward, every month was greater than the last. Border 
Patrol apprehensions tripled from May to October, an absolute 
hockey stick change.
    Joe Biden inherited more than 70,000 encounters per month, 
nearly a quarter more than there are right now. President Biden 
kept Title 42 in place. His Administration expelled 2.5 million 
people. By the way, Remain in Mexico, under Trump, 71,000 
people, but people kept coming. One of the toughest crackdowns 
ever did not stop them. Why? The answer has to do with the 
futility of fighting against geography and fighting against the 
law of supply and demand. My written testimony discusses that 
more.
    So, now while crackdowns do not work, I will be clear. I 
also do not want to see huge numbers of people coming to the 
U.S. Mexico border. Those people you see coming in to turn 
themselves into Border Patrol, they are doing that because 
applying for asylum requires you to be physically on U.S. soil. 
In order to get to U.S. soil, most of these people, they go 
through absolute hell. I am amazed by the desperation of moms I 
have seen pushing strollers at the entrance to the Darien Gap, 
the determination of people who just keep going, even after 
being kidnapped and tortured by Mexican gangs and corrupt 
police, but it is heartbreaking. This route encourages and 
enriches bloodthirsty organized crime groups.
    So, how do we break out of feudal crackdowns and also, at 
the same time, break out of forcing people to come to the 
border? First, with reforms to how people can come here. We 
need to be able to make clear that a process exists, that there 
is a line that people can get into, even though it may take a 
while. Right now, there is virtually no process, no line. Just 
because someone might not qualify for asylum does not mean that 
they and their family do not have a lot to offer for our 
communities and our economy.
    Our immigration laws, though, have not fundamentally 
changed in 34 years. I am talking 1990. I was 20 that year. I 
am kind of a techie kind of guy. I did not even have an email 
address in 1990. This is a very long time ago. Residency, work 
permits, refugee admissions have changed very little since the 
first Bush Administration. We need to modernize, and if we did, 
we would have a lot less people making this dangerous journey 
to access our asylum system at the border. Second, though, as 
troubled as it is, we still have to defend that asylum system. 
We should not put asylum out of reach like H.R. 2 would do. 
That is for four good reasons. First, asylum exists for an 
important historical reason. It is a legacy of World War II. 
When countries turned away many people fleeing the Nazis and 
Stalin and those people died, much of the world said never 
again, including the United States. Reason two, a lot of people 
really do qualify for asylum. In our immigration courts this 
year, 48 percent of asylum cases ended with grants of asylum or 
other protection. That is hundreds of thousands of lives saved 
over the years.
    Reason three, we have kept our asylum system so anemically 
underfunded that it is overwhelmed. Wait times for a decision 
are routinely several years, and then that overwhelm, that wait 
time, it becomes its own draw, but this is fixable. It is an 
administrative problem. How? Get processing off of Border 
Patrol agents' to-do lists so that they can get back on the 
line. About a thousand processing coordinators have been hired, 
people who do not need a full course of academy training to do 
paperwork. That is a start. Get case management in place so 
that you can keep people in the system. And most of all, hire 
judges and asylum officers so the caseloads go down, backlogs 
go down, people get fair decisions in their cases--but the 
cases happen so quickly, even with fairness, that people with 
weaker cases do not try.
    Reason four, as I said, our immigration laws are so 
outdated that asylum is the only door open for many people. We 
have to fix that. That is the reality.
    So now, we have got this lull in migration at the border, 
let us talk about new ways forward. I think that we can do that 
perhaps once the election cycle ends. Thank you, and I look 
forward to discussing this further.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. I will start off with 5 minutes.
    Mr. Camarota or Mr. Clem, I am under the impression that 
every year, about 850,000 new people are sworn as American 
citizens. Is that an indication to you that people cannot come 
into this country if they wait under the current system?
    Dr. Camarota. Right. Obviously, the number of naturalized 
U.S. citizens is at a record high, both the number----
    Mr. Grothman. A record high.
    Dr. Camarota. Right.
    Mr. Grothman. Ever higher, way higher than 1960, you know, 
the golden years, or 1950. Not even close, right?
    Dr. Camarota. Right. Yes, the U.S. legal immigration system 
is the most generous in the world if you look at how many 
people are admitted with a clear path to citizenship. So, in 
that sense, we are extremely generous, and there are probably 
somewhere around 40 million foreign born residents in the 
United States here legally.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. That is not nobody?
    Dr. Camarota. No, nobody.
    Mr. Grothman. President Biden and Vice President Harris 
have allowed--this is for Mr. Camarota--have allowed in 7 
million illegal immigrants into the U.S. since they first took 
office. Does this abrupt introduction of 7 million illegals 
strain public services and represent a fiscal challenge?
    Dr. Camarota. Yes, and as I said, it is not because illegal 
immigrants are lazy and do not want to work, or it is not 
because they are all on welfare. It is that people in a modern 
economy like U.S., and this is true of the native born--there 
is no difference--who do not have a lot of education, and that 
represents the vast majority of illegal immigrants, do not make 
much money in this economy. They do not pay that much taxes, 
even if they have work authorization or are on the books. There 
are always exceptions, and they tend to use a lot of services, 
and that is especially true once they have any U.S. born 
children.
    Mr. Grothman. OK. I will come back to something I said when 
I led off here. When I was a Wisconsin legislator, the 
carpenter union would again and again complain to me that they 
felt people were coming and stealing the good union jobs from 
other carpenters. Is this a problem today? Are they stealing 
jobs from Americans?
    Dr. Camarota. Well, the word ``stealing'' might be the----
    Mr. Grothman. Are they taking jobs that otherwise would go 
to law-abiding American?
    Dr. Camarota. Right, and by increasing the supply of 
workers, they certainly make employers happy, but that tends to 
have a downward pressure on wages, making jobs less attractive. 
And the real crisis in the U.S. labor market is all these 
people of working age who are not looking for work. They are 
not working and they are not looking for work.
    Mr. Grothman. Right.
    Mr. Camerota. And that is a 6-decade increase, and it is a 
social disaster. If we want to solve that problem, we have to 
curtail illegal immigration, let wages rise, and do a bunch of 
other things.
    Mr. Grothman. Yes, I am usually with the successful people 
in my district. I like successful people, but I always wonder 
how I should take it when they tell me if we allowed more 
immigrants in this country, they would not have to give so many 
raises. Is it right what my employers are telling us, that it 
is a way to hold down wages if we let more people--immigrants--
in this country?
    Dr. Camarota. Yes, and you can sometimes even find 
employers who say things like that.
    Mr. Grothman. Oh yes, they do.
    Mr. Camerota. The former CEO of Walmart said something to 
that effect.
    Mr. Grothman. They do. They do not like to give people 16 
or 17 bucks an hour.
    Dr. Camarota. Or more.
    Mr. Grothman. They pine for the days when they can give 
$10,000 or $11,000. Thank God for Donald Trump that he was able 
to raise those wages. Mr. Clem, you have 27 years of border 
security as a Border Patrol agent and led the Yuma Sector as 
Chief Patrol Agent. Vice President Harris, the border czar, 
focused on the so-called root causes. Is it fair to say that 
the catch and release policies of Biden-Harris Administration, 
not issues of abroad and foreign countries, have been actual 
and main cause of the border issue? And I think I will ask you 
to look at this. You look at the number of people coming 
across, say, in the 90s or the 80s or the 70s compared to 
today, I do not think the world, collectively, is that much 
more dangerous. What is driving this big increase now compared 
to 10 or 20 years ago?
    Mr. Clem. What I can tell you is that without consequences, 
people are going to keep coming, and that is one of the big 
challenges that we faced when I was Chief. It is what we saw 
happening the latter part of my time in El Paso, when there is 
no room to detain somebody who has entered illegally, who has 
been placed in removal proceedings, and they are essentially 
caught and released. That is what we call a pull factor.
    So, specifically, in places like Yuma where I was Chief, we 
did not have a lot of Central-American and Mexican nationals 
coming across. We had people from all over the world, 116, 117 
different countries. So, the smuggling network, the trafficking 
network has got, you know, tentacles all around the world. And 
so, people were coming here knowing that once they crossed, 
they were likely not being detained beyond Border Patrol and 
could be released in the United States for several years before 
their initial hearing. So, to me, that is a pull factor that is 
driving a lot of the people coming on our border today.
    Mr. Grothman. You would know the answer to this, and I 
mentioned it before. Are some of the women coming across that 
Southern border sexually assaulted?
    Mr. Clem. Absolutely.
    Mr. Grothman. A lot of them?
    Mr. Clem. A lot. It is hard to quantify that, but I will 
tell you that most of the people that we talk to through our 
intel debriefs and to people that run victim assistance 
shelters will tell you that from day one, when they start their 
journey in the hands of the smuggling networks from, whether it 
is South America, Central America, or through Mexico, they are 
exploited. They are sexually assaulted. Many of them are taking 
birth control because they expect there to be some kind of 
assault along the line.
    Mr. Grothman. It is that horrible.
    Mr. Clem. Yes.
    Mr. Grothman. You are giving minor girls birth control 
because they think it is almost predictable that they are going 
to be sexually assaulted, right?
    Mr. Clem. Yes. That is what we hear on debriefs, yes, sir.
    Mr. Grothman. Unbelievable. Well, OK, now I will go on to 
my partner in crime here, Mr. Garcia.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, and I also agree, obviously, sexual 
assault, whether it happens anywhere, and certainly the border, 
I think is sick, and we should do everything we can to stop 
that behavior.
    I think a lot of things have been said at this hearing, and 
I hear all the time about migration, what immigrants are doing, 
why they are coming here, but I also want to clear up some of 
the misinformation that we have already heard today. But also, 
it is important to clear up the facts about some of the data 
that is being used that I believe is actually incorrect, and I 
think that the facts make it clear.
    [Chart]
    I do want to start with this chart, and, Mr. Isacson, you 
presented some charts in your testimony. I want to use this one 
as well. So, if we look at this chart, this is actually a chart 
that is often used by my Republican colleagues. Donald Trump 
uses this chart. It is pretty famous, and it shows the 
migration spike here over time. But the truth is that this 
chart is actually factually incorrect, and I think it is 
important to note and to point out how incorrect it actually 
is. First, it says that Trump left office in April 2020 right 
here when migration was actually at its lowest point. We know 
that is actually not true. Can you actually tell us what 
happened in 2020 and why was there the huge decline at this 
point in the chart?
    Mr. Isacson. Sure. I mean, all of the world's borders 
closed everywhere in March 2020.
    Mr. Garcia. Because of the COVID pandemic.
    Mr. Isacson. Exactly.
    Mr. Garcia. Right. Except the Republicans, who have used 
this chart over and over again, including in other committees, 
keep saying that is when Trump left office. Now, when did Trump 
actually leave office?
    Mr. Isacson. January 2021.
    Mr. Garcia. That is right. And January 2021 is actually 
right here, so I will add an arrow to that.
    Mr. Isacson. Ooo, arrows.
    Mr. Garcia. So, if you look at this chart, from here to 
here was all of during Donald Trump's presidency. So, the 
increase in border crossings and the spike that you see 
beginning to happen, actually happened when who was President?
    Mr. Isacson. That is right. Things are already going up, a 
lot of single adults, and then just after that, the world's 
borders really start opening.
    Mr. Garcia. That is right, and so obviously the border 
crossings start increasing. Joe Biden then becomes President, 
and then something else happens. It is missing in this chart. 
We had the bipartisan border deal, and then, as we know, border 
crossings actually begin to decrease. So, I am going to add 
actually where we are today. This is actually where we are 
today with these illegal border crossings. And so, I think it 
is important that we actually stick to facts. This is incorrect 
when Donald Trump actually left office, what was actually 
happening in 2020, and the addition to this chart, which is 
actually where border crossings are today, an issue solved by 
the Biden-Harris Administration. Just to be very, very clear.
    And, Mr. Isacson, I also want to note then, we have 
discussed contributions of migrants, contributions of crime, 
and I think it is important that we know, yes, Donald Trump 
killed the bipartisan Border Patrol deal. We know that. And 
there have also been attacks on immigrants that somehow there 
is some sort of crime wave that immigrants are causing. I also 
want to use this chart.
    [Chart]
    This chart, by the way, is compiled by data by the men and 
women in our local police departments across America, so police 
actually submit this information. Now, let me ask you, do you 
agree the country is safer than it was in the 70s, 80s, and 
90s?
    Mr. Isacson. Yes, it absolutely is.
    Mr. Garcia. Right, because this is actually our crime 
trends and actual homicide rates in the U.S., and this is where 
we actually are today. I do see a spike in crime actually in 
2020, right over here. Who was President when that dramatic 
spike happened?
    Mr. Isacson. Donald Trump, but also COVID, yes.
    Mr. Garcia. Right, but Donald Trump was President, exactly, 
and Donald Trump, actually, murder rates surged by 30 percent 
to the highest rate since the 90s, correct?
    Mr. Isacson. That is right.
    Mr. Garcia. Now, in 2021 when Joe Biden became President, 
violent crime rates have now begun to decrease. So, I just want 
to point out also that when we talk about migrants, we are 
talking about what the impacts to the national crime rate is, 
that crime has actually plummeted this year, and the Biden-
Harris Administration has actually made the country safer. And 
so, we have invested in community policing, and, again, they 
understand that immigrants can contribute to this country. But 
just to connect back to the border, do you see any correlation 
between the crime rate in this chart and trends in migration 
over the last decades?
    Mr. Isacson. No, I see no correlation at all.
    Mr. Garcia. And is it safe to say that migration does not 
bring crime to our country? Would you agree with that?
    Mr. Isacson. No. The studies I have seen show that the 
migrant population commits crime at a lower rate than the U.S. 
one.
    Mr. Garcia. And, in fact, also, when you look at studies of 
migration, we know that migrants actually cause less crimes 
than natural-born citizens. That is also correct. Is that also 
true?
    Mr. Isacson. Yes. I mean, of course, migrants do commit 
some crimes, but the rate is lower.
    Mr. Garcia. And if you commit a crime, you should be held 
accountable to that crime, of course, and we know that is also 
critically important. So, I just want to thank you because I 
think facts matter. They are important. This is a Nation of 
immigrants, and I think it is important to actually stick to 
the data and the facts. And with that, I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. Mr. Sessions?
    Mr. Sessions. Chairman, thank you very much. Mr. Isacson, 
what does the city of New York think about their crime problem 
and immigration?
    Mr. Isacson. The city of New York has a homicide rate much 
lower than Washington's, and it is actually going down.
    Mr. Sessions. Is that what the mayor says? Is that what the 
Governor says? Is that what the people say?
    Mr. Isacson. The mayor made some warnings about a year ago 
that have not turned out to be correct, about crime or disorder 
in the city.
    Mr. Sessions. So, I am mistaken that the Governor and the 
mayor said that immigration was a problem and that they are 
seeking desperate help from the Federal Government because they 
have exceeded their ability to take care of not just the 
immigrants, but the criminal problem that they have. So, I am 
wrong?
    Mr. Isacson. About 2 years ago, they had a lot of people 
coming from Venezuela who did not have a lot of contacts and 
people that they could stay with in the United States, and they 
were at first a burden on the system. They are not anymore, and 
their numbers are way down.
    Mr. Sessions. So, thank you for your testimony. Mr. Clem, 
Mr. Camarota, I have been told, `no, it is not a problem in New 
York, not a problem in New York City.' I am wrong? Mr. Clem?
    Mr. Clem. I would not say you are wrong because we have 
seen the facts that we have had illegal immigrants that have 
been caught and released and transferred to New York City 
committing crimes. I would also say, you are not wrong because 
the mayor of New York City sent his team down to places like 
Del Rio, Texas, and Yuma, Arizona to see firsthand what was 
happening back in 2022. They obviously knew something was going 
on and were concerned for their constituents in their 
respective cities. So yes, you are not wrong.
    Dr. Camarota. There have certainly been high profile crimes 
committed by illegal immigrants, and I have written on this 
question of the background rate of crime rates for immigrants 
and the U.S. born. It turns out the data is not very good, but 
let me just say this. Keep in mind the policy--sanctuary 
cities, as a matter of policy, it releases people who have been 
arrested and are in jail. The one group of immigrants we know 
has a high crime rate are people who get arrested and are in 
jail, and when the ICE asks them to hold that person, they, as 
a matter of policy, often release. That is what a sanctuary 
city often does. That is extraordinarily foolish, even if you 
think that illegal immigrants, on balance, have a somewhat 
lower crime rate than other groups. Releasing people who get 
arrested is very foolish when ICE is willing to take them, and 
that is what these cities do.
    Mr. Sessions. Well, I am willing to go before the House of 
Representatives and on the Floor and admit that I am wrong, 
that the mayor of New York City does not believe that, nor has 
over the last 10 weeks. I am willing to go to the Floor of the 
House of Representatives and admit that I was wrong, that the 
Governor of New York encourages this, and it is not a problem 
to the state of New York. That is not what I thought.
    And so, Mr. Isacson, I will just apologize to you right 
now. You have told me I am wrong. You have told me that the 
state of New York and the city of New York is perfectly safe, 
that the crime rates are lower.
    Mr. Isacson. I did not say that----
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir, you did because I gave you a chance 
to and you told me it is lower today, and that the immigrants 
have a very little part of that.
    Mr. Isacson. I stand by that.
    Mr. Sessions. And so, I am going to admit, I am sorry. I am 
sorry that I have thought this, and I am sorry. So, I am going 
to go and check the facts, but I am going to admit to you that 
it is not what I thought, that I thought, just like in 
Philadelphia and a lot of other places, that the crime in 
Chicago, the crime as it relates to these Venezuelan gangs is a 
real problem and criminal to police officers, to cities, to the 
people of the city of Chicago. And I will tell you, I will 
apologize to you right now that you have corrected me as a 
professional witness giving testimony----
    Mr. Isacson. Look at the most recent data.
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. that you raised your hand. I did 
not raise my hand. You did and said you will tell the truth, 
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
    Mr. Isacson. And I did.
    Mr. Sessions. So, I know you did. I watched. So, I will 
apologize right now to you. I am going to go back home and I am 
going to double check the facts, and I appreciate the 
gentleman.
    Mr. Isacson. May I ask you to not pick anecdotal data and 
look at the most recent numbers? Of course, you are going to 
find evidence that migrants are committing crime. So, what is 
the rate?
    Mr. Sessions. Recent data. I ask about what the city of New 
York, the mayor was saying. I asked what the Governor----
    Mr. Isacson. In 2024, the second half of 2024 you will not 
find as much on the record.
    Mr. Sessions. Well, I did not say the second half. I did 
not say----
    Mr. Isacson. You said what he is saying, that is current, 
presently, now.
    Mr. Sessions. OK. Well, I am going to go check it.
    Mr. Isacson. What he said in 2022 is something else.
    Mr. Sessions. Sir, I am going to tell you, I apologize 
because it is----
    Mr. Isacson. Thank you. I accept.
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. not what I thought at all, and I 
will be glad to go check that, and, Mr. Chairman, I want to 
yield back my time.
    Mr. Garcia. I would like to also request, Mr. Chair, 
unanimous consent to enter two articles into the record. The 
first is an article entitled, ``Immigrants are Less Likely to 
Commit Crimes Than U.S.-Born Americans, Studies Find.'' This 
was dated March 8, 2024, from NPR. The second is an op-ed 
entitled, ``Many Americans Believe Migrants Bring Fentanyl 
Across the Border. That is Wrong and Dangerous.'' That is from 
the L.A. Times, dated February 12, 2024. Thank you.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Mr. Grothman. Andy Biggs?
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let us get to this 
thing, the Muslim ban that was mentioned. What countries were 
involved in the Muslim ban? Anybody know? I know. Anybody want 
to take guess? I will tell you who they were: Iran, Libya, 
Somalia, Syria, Yemen, and North Korea. Is North Korea a Muslim 
country? No, it is not. What do those countries, 6 of those 7 
countries, have in common? Actually, they have in common that 
four of them were on President Obama's DHS Terrorist Watch 
List. The other four were considered terrorism safe havens. 
Only 12 percent of Muslims around the world were impacted. And 
besides that
    --Mr. Clem knows this, Mr. Camerato knows this, I would 
hope Mr. Isacson knows this--there were exceptions for every 
one of those countries to come in, so there was not an absolute 
ban. Another lie told by the left.
    How about separation? This notion of separation, more than 
325,000 unaccompanied children have been misplaced by this 
Administration, admitted to. New York Times did a study. We had 
the Director in, and she admitted that is a separation. You 
know what these guys got criticized for, is about 4,000 people, 
kids, that were separated, and they found them all, but a few. 
These guys cannot find 325,000, but you are not going to hear 
my colleagues say anything about it.
    U.S. crime rate is not down, contrary to what you say, and 
why do we know that? Does LAPD report? No. Does New York 
report? No. Does Miami-Dade report? No. Do more than 6,000 
police agencies obviate any reporting? That is the correct 
thing. They do not report. So, when you say New York is down, 
guess what, friend? They do not report to the FBI anymore. They 
do not report anymore. They stopped reporting several years 
ago. Why is it? They have told me it is too hard to report, and 
so that is what you are relying on.
    You know what the CBP said about Tren de Aragua? Tren de 
Aragua is now moving into the Northeast, but crime is down for 
you. That is good for you, my friend. CBP numbers, you said 
they are way down. I am looking at CBP numbers right here, 
looking at them right here, and you know what I see? Let us see 
here, August 2023, 304,000. They are down, you are right, 
almost 50 percent. They are down to 160,000, but you know what 
is interesting about that? Jeh Johnson, Obama's DHS Secretary 
said, `look, if you have more than 1,000 a day, you have got a 
crisis.' Mr. Clem, is that a crisis? You have been there. How 
many in the last year that you were Sector Chief? Fewer than 
8,600 encounters in Yuma. Is that right?
    Mr. Clem. In 2020, it was just approximately 8,800 arrests 
in Yuma, in 2021, it went up to 114,000, and then in 2022, it 
went up to 312,000. So, we went up over a thousand a day just 
in Yuma alone.
    Mr. Biggs. Right. So, if you are standing on top of Mount 
Everest and you come down 1,000 feet, it may look like you have 
really descended a whole lot, but you have not descended back 
to normal, and we are nowhere near normal. And that is the lie, 
the statistics that you guys are rallying around. It just blows 
my ever-loving mind.
    How about the so-called bipartisan piece of crap deal out 
of the Senate? Mr. Clem, I read your statement, and what did 
you say? You said something like this. You said, ``It failed to 
address the border security requirements still needed by the 
U.S. Border Patrol. If enacted, it would codify''--codify--``a 
mandatory nationwide catch-and-release scheme for all 
populations. Any time there are limited consequences of 
detention or removal, even returning to Mexico, incentivizes 
more people to make the dangerous journey.'' That dangerous 
journey, that is what is inhumane, is it not?
    Mr. Clem. That is correct. The journey is dangerous.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes. And so, the bill that you referred to as a 
better bill was H.R. 2, which has been languishing over in the 
Senate for over a year now. That was a bipartisan bill. That 
bill would have made significant changes along the border. Quit 
lying. Let me tell you. How about the CBP One app. How is that 
figured in? How is that counted in? Is that counted in your 
encounters between ports of entry or at the port? No, it is not 
counted in, and you know what those numbers are? And this will 
take you right back up to 2023 levels: 530,000 migrants, OK, 
that is the CHMD program. Eight hundred 13 thousand came in 
under the CBP One. That takes you right back up to the 2023 
levels, does that not, Mr. Clem, Mr. Camarota?
    Yes, it does.
    Mr. Clem. Yes, it does.
    Dr. Camarota. Yes, if you add them together.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes. And then when you throw in the Cuba, Haiti, 
Nicaragua, Venezuela numbers, now you are back right at, maybe 
even a little higher, than the 2023 numbers, and that is the 
point that none of you all want to admit. You want to dance 
around and you want to say, well, now they are legal. They have 
got some kind of legal status. You know what they have got? 
They have got an illegal parole status because parole under the 
INA is meant to be a singular, particularized parole status, 
but they have got categorical parole status here, and they know 
that is wrong, and that is where they should have stopped.
    Mr. Chairman, my time is way over, but there is so much 
more to say here to rebut the crapola that we have heard here 
today.
    Mr. Grothman. The gentleman yields.
    Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chair, since I know time went over, can I 
just add one thing?
    Mr. Biggs. If he is adding, I am going to add. You got time 
before we started. I did not get that time.
    Mr. Garcia. That is because I am the Ranking Member of the 
committee.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes, who cares if you are the Ranking Member? 
You asked for a regular order, then do regular order.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, sir. As Ranking Member, since he had 
more time, I just----
    Mr. Grothman. You may, please.
    Mr. Garcia. I just want to clarify that the gentleman is 
actually incorrect. Both the states of New York and 
California--the city of New York City, the city of Los 
Angeles--do send their reports and their crime reports, and 
they are included in the data. And so, I just think that the 
facts are important, and I will not correct----
    Mr. Biggs. Yes, they are, and so I demand time to respond 
to that.
    Mr. Garcia. I will not correct every misstatement, but I do 
want to correct those. Thank you.
    Mr. Biggs. I want that time. I want that time, Mr. 
Chairman, because if you look at the Marshall Project, the 
Marshall Project said, which is not a conservative group, they 
will tell you, if you look at the FBI data, more than 52 
percent of agencies do not report all of their data to FBI, and 
that is the facts. Facts are stubborn thing and----
    Mr. Garcia. And last, like, having served as mayor for 8 
years and had a police force of 600 police officers, did a 
great job. The city of Los Angeles, the city of New York, I can 
tell you, guarantee you, they report their data. Thank you.
    Mr. Grothman. Nancy Mace?
    Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. In talking about 
extraordinarily foolish--I know that was said earlier by one of 
our witnesses--it is not just cities. It is counties, too. I 
have been nuking Charleston County sheriff over the last 24 
hours over her lies about the illegals that are in South 
Carolina, her lies about releasing them into our state and that 
sort of thing. And when you are talking about New York, Mr. 
Biggs, if you talk to an NYPD officer, they will tell you they 
are not charging these illegals with crimes. And then when they 
do, they are released. They are not given a bail or bond when 
they go out. And so, the left, it is just all one big lie, and 
it is not right to the American people.
    And the statistic that crime is down for migrants, every 
illegal who is here, illegally entered our country illegally 
they literally committed a crime on the way in. And so, they 
are all 100 percent guilty of committing a crime. Mr. Chairman, 
I brought a folder today because I am going to enter in some 
documents into the congressional record this afternoon.
    So, I want to thank our witnesses for being here today. I 
am going to focus my time on the human cost of sanctuary 
policies from local officials, including Charleston County 
sanctuary sheriff, Kristin Graziano, and I hope she is watching 
today. If she is watching, I hope you have a Number 2 pencil 
and you take notes because this is how I do my job. Charleston 
County, actually, my district, used to be a model for 
cooperation between ICE and local law enforcement. It is no 
more. Charleston County had a 287(g) cooperation agreement in 
place with ICE, acted as an over 72-hour detention facility for 
aliens apprehended by ICE, and worked together to enforce our 
Nation's laws and keep our community safe. No more because of 
sanctuary sheriff, Kristin Graziano. Unfortunately, in early 
2021, the new sheriff of Charleston County, sanctuary sheriff, 
Kristin Graziano, began a systematic effort to dismantle 
immigration enforcement in Charleston County. Sheriff Graziano, 
on her first day in office, terminated Charleston County's 
287(g) cooperation agreement with ICE. She announced this in 
front of a taco shop. I do not know why.
    So, Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask unanimous consent to 
enter this picture of Sheriff Graziano terminating her 287(g) 
agreement in front of El Pincho Taco into the record.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Ms. Mace. Thank you. I also would like to request unanimous 
consent to enter this photo. It is sanctuary sheriff, Kristin 
Graziano's, Twitter header. Here she is with wide open borders 
czar, Kamala Harris. Here she is with Joe Biden, who often 
loved to walk away from the podium and not take questions from 
press, just like sanctuary sheriff, Kristin Graziano did today 
at her own press conference. I am not sure who did it better, 
her or Joe Biden.
    Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter this into record.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Ms. Mace. Thank you. Sheriff Graziano refuses to notify ICE 
when a criminal illegal alien is in custody and refuses to 
provide adequate hold time for ICE to assume custody.
    I am going to request unanimous consent, Mr. Chairman, to 
enter a statement yesterday where she says, ``Our policy 
clearly states, on our public website, we only hold residents 
for ICE if they have a I-247, a detainer and Immigration Order 
signed by an Immigration Judge,'' as per her office policy. I 
would like to enter her statement into the record, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Ms. Mace. In that same vein, I am going to enter her own 
office policy that says that she can and will release criminal 
illegal aliens into South Carolina. This is her policy she 
cites as the reason she does this. Did you know she wrote and 
signed off on her own department policy? It does not get any 
dumber than this, literally is one of the dumbest things I have 
ever seen in South Carolina history. Her department has been 
designated as a noncooperative by ICE.
    Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter this list of 
noncooperative institutions into the congressional record, sir.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Ms. Mace. All right. I am running out of time. I am 
requesting unanimous consent to enter this document from ICE--
she called me a liar today--where she has released over 50 
illegal immigrants into South Carolina, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Ms. Mace. I would like to request unanimous consent to 
enter all my letters to Sheriff Graziano and ICE into the 
congressional record, over her behavior.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Ms. Mace. And last, she called me a liar today, and she 
also said that violent crime has gone down in Charleston 
County. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask for unanimous consent 
to enter the SLED, State Law Enforcement Division's crime in 
South Carolina annual report where it shows violent crime is 
up. Murders, aggravated assaults, stolen vehicles, et cetera, 
it is up. It is not down. It is a lie. Mr. Chairman?
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Ms. Mace. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. Paul Gosar?
    Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, Chief 
Clem, how are you doing? Jonathan Lyon said to say hi to you.
    Mr. Clem. Good afternoon, sir. Good to see you.
    Mr. Gosar. You know, you have experienced more than 
probably anybody in this room, you know, down in that Yuma 
sector. I have a small part of Yuma, but it has been overrun. I 
want you to talk about what was just found on our border, these 
eight IEDs and the four rocket-propelled grenades.
    Mr. Clem. Well, I do not have that much fidelity anymore 
because I am retired, but I can tell you what has been open 
source, and that is a place near La Nariz, which is outside of 
Sonoyta, Mexico, I would say about 40 miles southeast of 
Lukeville, Arizona. They are near Ajo, Arizona. And my 
understanding, it was less than a 10th of a mile from the 
border, there were several IEDs and RPGs. More than likely, 
based on my experience, that is for cartel infighting, taking 
over land, using it to, you know, emboldening their operations 
over there, but being that close to the U.S border, it is a 
threat. It is a threat to everybody in the region. It does not 
take much for somebody to turn an RPG or put an IED right there 
at the border and injure any of our CBP personnel or Border 
Patrol agents, so something like that, that close to our 
border, is a concern. That is why I say it is more than 
immigration. It is border security is national security.
    Mr. Gosar. All right. You know, we have not had anybody--
and I am being facetious here--now we have not had anybody from 
the Middle East at all come across those borders, have we?
    Mr. Clem. We have had them from all over the country, all 
over the world, excuse me, 177 different countries, I believe, 
in the last few years. Yuma was no exception. We had plenty of 
people, 116, 117 different countries, during the 2 years I was 
chief there.
    Mr. Gosar. When you were Chief, how many people were on the 
Terrorist Watch List that came through?
    Mr. Clem. I actually led the Nation in 2022 with 40 people 
that were apprehended that came across the Terrorist Screening 
Data base.
    Mr. Gosar. And those are the ones you just knew about, 
right?
    Mr. Clem. Those are the ones we just knew about. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Gosar. The got-aways do not count?
    Mr. Clem. We have no idea who or what their intentions are.
    Mr. Gosar. What is your general feeling about cells in this 
country?
    Mr. Clem. Well, I think we have fooled ourselves if we 
think that is not occurring, right? I think anybody with any 
law enforcement/military background understands that the enemy 
is going to amass its army any way, shape it can. The fact that 
we have had close to 1.8 million or 1.9 million got-aways with 
no idea who they are, and I am sure a small percentage of them, 
or a majority of them, are not on a watch list, but it does not 
take many. But, you know, fact of the matter is, is we have got 
concerns because we have got so many people from all around the 
world that have snuck in this country legally that we do not 
know about.
    Mr. Gosar. Now, you know, Yuma is kind of out there, and 
they are all by themselves out there, right? And so, the locals 
are really doing the lowman's share of having to deal with 
these people, right?
    Mr. Clem. That is correct.
    Mr. Gosar. Can you talk a little bit more about your 
reactions or relationship with the sheriff there, Wilmot?
    Mr. Clem. I am very fortunate. I have a very good 
relationship with all the local leadership--the mayor, the 
sheriff, the county supervisors. We had to pull together as a 
community to handle the influx. We went, again, from, I have 
mentioned earlier, in 2020 just over 8,800 arrests to over 
110,000, 114,000 arrests, up to 300,000 arrests, 312,000 
arrests in 2022. That took an entire toll on everything from 
the EMS services, the medical services, the food bank, law 
enforcement. We had to come together and build a community team 
using nongovernment organizations to help so we are not 
releasing people in the street in places like Yuma, Arizona, 
when it is 120 degrees in the summertime. And I was just there 
last week, I met with some of the same people, and there are 
still facilities, like the hospital, that still have not 
recovered over $25 million, I think, in medical funds, and even 
the food bank is still having a hard time replenishing some of 
the stuff they had that they use to help with the migrant 
influx there.
    Mr. Gosar. And that food bank was one of the biggest in the 
state, right?
    Mr. Clem. It was.
    Mr. Gosar. It is huge.
    Mr. Clem. Because of the migrant population, and the 
agriculture in Yuma, they had a lot of support, and for that to 
get depleted was pretty impactful.
    Mr. Gosar. And if I am not wrong, the hospital there, if 
you were a citizen who is pregnant, you could not get a labor 
or an OB/GYN to see you because they were all filled. You had 
to go all the way to Phoenix, which is a pretty hefty drive, 
right?
    Mr. Clem. The CEO has made that statement of the hospital 
that because of a lot of the influx, people coming directly to 
the hospital that were in need of OB/GYN and labor and 
delivery, they had to reschedule people that were planning to 
come in here for births, cesarean sections. Those things had to 
be canceled or rescheduled because of that, so, yes, that is a 
factual statement.
    Mr. Gosar. You know, I thank you very much. You know, I 
thank you for your service. Appreciate you, and like I said, I 
said hi for Jonathan Lyons. Thank you very much. I yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. In closing, I want to thank our witnesses 
once again for their testimony.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman, I have some documents to submit 
for the record.
    Mr. Grothman. Oh, yes. Mr. Biggs.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. For the record, I submit a document 
from The Marshall Project, entitled, ``Four Reasons We Should 
Worry About Missing Crime Data''; submit a report from the 
Homeland Security Committee called, ``New Documents Obtained by 
Homeland Majority Detail Shocking Abuse of CBP One App''; a 
report from U.S. CBP and a Fox article referencing that report, 
``Nearly 530,000 Migrants Came to the U.S. 'Legally' and 
Paroled into U.S. Under Controversial Biden Programs,'' and 
which also talks about the CHMD program, as well as CBP One 
program. I also include into the record the INA 212(d)(5)(A), 
which is the parole statute, which defines what parole is 
supposed to be. And then, also, I accessed this morning the CBP 
statistical data with regard to encounters on the Southwest 
land border alone.
    Mr. Grothman. Without objection.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Chairman?
    Mr. Grothman. Yes.
    Mr. Sessions. I would like to ask unanimous consent to 
enter into the record some information which I had used to 
prepare myself for today that obviously I am told I am wrong. 
From the U.S. News: ``Migrants Flooding New York City's Justice 
System, Making Up 75 Percent of Arrests in Midtown, As Pathetic 
Sanctuary Laws Handcuff Cops.'' Second would be in The Metro 
[sic], ``Migrants Accused of Crimes Still Eligible for 
Taxpayer-Funded New York City Shelters, the Mayor of New York 
City Admits After Expose.'' Mr. Chairman, I would ask these be 
included in the record of today's hearing.
    Mr. Grothman. And without objection.
    OK. My Ranking Member?
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to thank 
our witnesses again. And as a reminder, Republicans and 
Democrats both want a safe and secure border. Clearly, we had 
an opportunity to pass the bipartisan Border Security Act. It 
was not able to happen. Of course, we know that President Biden 
has taken executive action on that. Also, I just want to point 
out, it is important, I think, when we talk about migrants and 
we talk about crime, that we actually use facts, statistics, 
and crime data reported by police departments across the 
country. And, also, once again, I want to thank our witnesses 
for being here and wish everyone a good break. With that I 
yield back.
    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. Thank you, guys, for coming on 
over and testifying here. What I can add, there is no question 
that we are at, in my mind, record numbers of people coming 
across the border for the current year. And you got to remember 
two new things: the CBP One app and the Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, 
Venezuela program, which were not around 2 years ago, but now 
each are taking on 125, one about 40,000, additional people 
coming here every month.
    So, we are in a crisis never before. To say that this is 
like anything we have seen under President Trump is not true. 
And we have numbers on family units released, total encounters 
all going up, up over time. I can tell you, in my area, which 
is not a particularly liberal area, if I ask law enforcement 
how many people arrested who are here illegally, how many 
people in the jail are here illegally, how many people in a 
prison are here illegally--it amazes me what we do not know. 
OK. I do not think those numbers are out here because they are 
not out here in Wisconsin. They are sure not out here in 
Arizona or Texas or somewhere.
    This is obviously going to permanently change America. We 
have not got into ideas of people coming here. I mean, we have 
to, over time, have people who understand our Constitution, 
believe in our values. As said before, we are right now among 
record numbers of people who are being sworn in, legally 
naturalized, way, way more than in the 60s or 70s or 50s, not 
even in the same ballpark. And nevertheless, we let this 
fiction sit out here that it is, you know, so difficult to come 
here.
    In any event, it is, to me, obvious anecdotally and from 
talking to my local law enforcement, that people who are here 
illegally are committing crimes and serious crimes--rapes, that 
sort of thing--which is horrific. It is obviously true that 
when you bring another 5 million or 10 million people in the 
country and are not building more housing, you are going to 
drive up the cost of the housing that you have. I can tell you, 
from my district, even in Wisconsin, so far from the Southern 
border, some school districts have had dramatic increase in the 
number of people there, which obviously is very expensive, and 
it is more expensive than any other child because you are 
dealing with the additional cost connected with people not 
being able to speak English, but that is going up as well.
    So, I appreciate you being here. I hope within the next few 
months, we are able to deal with this crisis and realize that 
you cannot be taking in 1.5 million or 2 million new people, 3 
million new people every year, without fundamentally changing 
America. We have something so special here, and I feel like we 
are letting it slip away. So, thank you.
    With that, and without objection, all Members will have 5 
legislative days to submit materials and additional written 
questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the 
witnesses.
    Mr. Grothman. If there is no further business, without 
objection, the Subcommittee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 3:19 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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