[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]






                                 



 
                         A HEARING WITH FORMER

                     NEW YORK GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

            SELECT SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC

                                 OF THE

               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                           SEPTEMBER 10, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-129

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability
  
  
  
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                       Available on: govinfo.gov,
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                             docs.house.gov
                             
                         ______

             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 56-885 PDF          WASHINGTON : 2024                           
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman

Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking 
Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas                 Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Ro Khanna, California
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Katie Porter, California
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Cori Bush, Missouri
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Shontel Brown, Ohio
Byron Donalds, Florida               Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Robert Garcia, California
William Timmons, South Carolina      Maxwell Frost, Florida
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Greg Casar, Texas
Lisa McClain, Michigan               Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Dan Goldman, New York
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Nick Langworthy, New York            Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Eric Burlison, Missouri
Mike Waltz, Florida

                                 ------                                
                       Mark Marin, Staff Director
             Mitchell Benzine, Subcommittee Staff Director
                        Marie Policastro, Clerk

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5074

                Miles Lichtman, Minority Staff Director
                      Contact Number: 202-225-5051
                                 ------                                

            Select Subcommittee On The Coronavirus Pandemic

                     Brad Wenstrup, Ohio, Chairman
Nicole Malliotakis, New York         Raul Ruiz, California, Ranking 
Mariannette Miller-Meeks, Iowa           Minority Member
Debbie Lesko, Arizona                Debbie Dingell, Michigan
Michael Cloud, Texas                 Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
John Joyce, Pennsylvania             Deborah Ross, North Carolina
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Robert Garcia, California
Ronny Jackson, Texas                 Ami Bera, California
Rich Mccormick, Georgia              Jill Tokuda, Hawaii
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                                                                   Page

Hearing held on September 10, 2024...............................     1

                               WITNESSES

                              ----------                              

The Honorable Andrew Cuomo, Former Governor, New York
Oral Statement...................................................     7

Written opening statements and the written statements of the 
  witnesses are available on the U.S. House of Representatives 
  Document Repository at: docs.house.gov.

                           INDEX OF DOCUMENTS

                              ----------                              

  * Report, U.S. Department of Health and Human Service's Office 
  of the Inspector General, ``Certain For-Profit Nursing Homes 
  May Not Have Complied with Federal Requirements''; submitted by 
  Rep. Ross.

  * Letter, September 9, 2024, Brown University School of Public 
  Health; submitted by Rep. Ruiz.

  * Sun and Hu Indictment, August 26, 2024; submitted by Rep. 
  Greene.

  * Statement for the Record; submitted by Rep. Nick LaLota.

  * Statement for the Record; submitted by Rep. Claudia Tenney.

  * Statement for the Record; submitted by Rep. Marc Molinaro.

  * Questions for the Record: to Hon. Cuomo; submitted by Rep. 
  Malliotakis.

  * Questions for the record: to Hon. Cuomo; submitted by Rep. 
  Miller-Meeks.


Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.


                         A HEARING WITH FORMER



                     NEW YORK GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO

                              ----------                              


                      Tuesday, September 10, 2024

                     U.S. House of Representatives

               Committee on Oversight and Accountability

            Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus Pandemic

                                           Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:20 p.m., in 
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Brad R. Wenstrup 
(Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding.
    Present: Representatives Wenstrup, Comer (ex-officio) 
Malliotakis, Miller-Meeks, Lesko, Joyce, Greene, Jackson of 
Texas, Ruiz, Raskin (ex-officio), Dingell, Mfume, Ross, Robert 
Garcia, and Bera.
    Also present: Representatives Stefanik and Jordan.
    Dr. Wenstrup. The Select Subcommittee on the Coronavirus 
Pandemic will come to order. I want to welcome everyone.
    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any 
time.
    Before we start, I ask for unanimous consent for Ms. 
Stefanik, Mr. Jordan, Mr. Langworthy, and Mr. Moskowitz to 
participate in this hearing for the purposes of questions.
    I now recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening 
statement.
    Mr. Cuomo, welcome. I want to thank you for your 
willingness to participate in today's hearing and for 
testifying in front of the Select Subcommittee more than 2 
months ago.
    It took issuing a subpoena to get you to then agree to 
testify previously. So, I appreciate you coming in voluntarily 
today.
    Before we get into the substance we are here to examine, I 
want to tell you that this Subcommittee has been threatened 
twice this Congress, once by the Chinese Communist Party 
through its embassy for examining the origins of COVID-19; and 
the second time, by you, through your counsel, for examining 
the handling of COVID-19 in nursing homes.
    I can tell you, we have not and we will not bow to these 
threats. I certainly hope you do not approve of these tactics, 
or perhaps you aren't aware of them, Governor Cuomo, which 
seems to be a consistent pattern.
    Nonetheless, the Select Subcommittee is holding this 
hearing today to examine your administration's handling of the 
COVID-19 pandemic in New York.
    Specifically, we want to focus on the issuance of a 
directive that resulted in the admittance and readmittance, 
according to the AP, of more than 9,000 potentially COVID 
positive individuals to nursing homes.
    The Select Subcommittee has been authorized to investigate 
the COVID-19 pandemic and to explore lessons learned, positive 
or negative, to better prepare for future pandemics.
    Since the beginning of this Congress, we've been committed 
to conducting a thorough investigation, free from influence and 
unafraid to follow the facts wherever they may lead. We've 
acted in a transparent fashion, cognizant that Americans 
deserve to see our work and review all available information so 
they can draw their own conclusions.
    We're examining actions taken by Congress, including 
measures I voted for, but might want to do differently or 
better the next time, so that when the next shocking pandemic 
occurs, we have looked back, found what worked and what didn't, 
and establish a workable system so that we may endure.
    This is an after-action review in hopes of being able to 
predict, prepare, protect, and perhaps even prevent the next 
pandemic.
    In search for best pandemic practices, today's hearing is 
focused on New York and the March 25, 2020, directive from the 
New York State Department of Health issued under Governor 
Andrew Cuomo's leadership.
    In this investigation, we have reviewed more than half a 
million documents, and we've conducted ten transcribed 
interviews with members of your Administration, including you. 
Our findings are based on the evidence and testimonies that we 
have received.
    This is a comprehensive and painstaking endeavor to find 
out what happened in New York nursing homes, with more than 
2,000 pages of testimony publicly released to support our 
conclusions.
    Simply put, America cannot move forward without first 
looking back. And that includes examining your directive, 
Governor.
    Mr. Cuomo, I think that you'll agree that New York State 
became ``ground zero'' for much of the pandemic in the United 
States.
    In the earliest stage of the pandemic, COVID-19 was a novel 
virus, and there was little information and a lot of unknowns.
    But it quickly became clear that COVID-19 was particularly 
dangerous for the elderly. We all saw the deadly consequences 
of COVID-19 in nursing homes in Washington State, the earlier 
epicenter of the pandemic.
    There was a thousandfold higher risk of poor outcomes, 
specifically hospitalization and death, for older people 
relative to younger populations. Therefore, it was critically 
important that the public health response prioritize protecting 
high-risk populations.
    This is an important lesson learned.
    This was understood by the U.S. Centers for Medicaid and 
Medicare Services and the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and 
Prevention, the CDC.
    On March 13, 2020, CMS issued guidance--I want to stress 
the word ``guidance''--that specifically directed nursing homes 
to not accept COVID-19 positive patients if they were unable to 
do so safely, and to only accept individuals if the nursing 
home could follow CDC transmission-based guidance.
    Again, this guidance was a nonbinding, federally issued 
guidance. That's reflected by its language.
    The CMS guidance used terms such as ``can'' and 
``should''--consistent with the tone of guidance.
    ``A nursing home can accept a resident''--this is a quote--
``A nursing home can accept a resident diagnosed with COVID-19 
and still under Transmission-Based Precautions for COVID-19 as 
long as the facility can follow CDC guidance for Transmission-
Based Precautions.''
    ``Nursing homes should admit any individual''--``should 
admit any individual that they would normally admit to their 
facility, including individuals from hospitals where a case of 
COVID-19 was or is present.''
    This was not the case with the directive issued by your 
administration on March 25, 2020.
    While I know you like to play semantics and refer to it as 
an ``advisory, it's clear that it's anything but. Merriam-
Webster defines an ``advisory'' as ``containing or giving 
advice.''
    Your ``advisory'' refers to itself in the language as a 
``directive'' in the very first paragraph, with your name at 
the top, Governor Cuomo. And it says, ``This directive is being 
issued to clarify expectations for nursing homes receiving 
residents returning from hospitalization and for nursing homes 
accepting new admissions.''
    Merriam-Webster defines a ``directive'' as ``an 
authoritative order or instrument issued by a high-level body 
or official.'' That's what that was on March 25, 2020.
    In your case, that carries the weight of all.
    Your directive uses words like ``shall,'' ``must,'' and 
``prohibit.'' It directs that ``all Nursing homes must comply 
with the expedient receipt of residents returning from 
hospitals to a Nursing home.''
    It directs, ``No resident shall be denied readmission or 
admission to the Nursing home solely based on a confirmed or 
suspected diagnosis of COVID-19.''
    An authoritative directive from the state of New York with 
the authority of law. ``No resident shall be denied readmission 
or admission to the Nursing home solely based on a confirmed or 
suspected diagnosis of COVID-19.''
    It directs that ``nursing homes are prohibited''--
prohibited--``from requiring a hospitalized resident who is 
determined medically stable to be tested for COVID-19 prior to 
admission or readmission.''
    See here's the problem. Medically stable can still mean 
highly contagious.
    The language in this directive is not advisory, and it's 
not nonbinding. The CMS guidance was and still is advisory and 
nonbinding.
    ``Directive'' with the authority of law supersedes 
``guidance.'' ``Prohibited'' means not allowed. And prohibiting 
testing for COVID-19 is nowhere in the CDC guidance.
    Because of this language, the March 25 directive was dubbed 
a ``must admit'' order by the public and press, and rightfully 
so. Those words are not in there, but that's how it became 
known in the common vernacular in the public and press.
    But your directive was not consistent with Federal 
guidance, nor consistent with medical doctrine. You do not put 
highly contagious patients in with vulnerable patients subject 
to infection, and in this case death.
    Your former commissioner of the Department of Health told 
us that you received the phone call from the Greater New York 
Hospital Association asking you to do something about nursing 
home residents that the hospitals wanted to be able to 
discharge. He testified that you were told that these patients 
needed to ``go home.''
    And while you testified that you were not aware of the 
directive until April 20, 2020, you decided to keep it after 
learning about it. It remained in effect for almost 3 weeks 
after you knew about it.
    Governor, you own this. It's your name on the letterhead. 
This is your directive, whether you knew about it or not. 
You're the leader. The buck stops with you, or at least it 
should.
    It's important to look at your Administration's record.
    Two weeks after you learned about the order, your office 
changed the methodology of how nursing home fatalities were 
categorized. You removed out-of-facility deaths that occurred 
at the hospital, altering the full accounting of nursing home 
deaths.
    During your transcribed interview, when describing why you 
chose not to disclose the number of nursing home residents who 
died at hospitals, you remarked, ``Who cares?''
    I'll tell you who cares about this. Doctors and nurses 
trying to save lives care about this. People dying and their 
families, they care about this.
    If someone contracted COVID-19 in the nursing home and died 
at the hospital, it matters. It is scientifically significant 
to know where, how, and why someone contracted COVID-19 and 
died if we're going to prevent this in the future. That is 
important data.
    In July 2020, you released a report under the auspices of 
the New York State Department of Health that blamed nursing 
home employees rather than your directive for the deaths that 
occurred in nursing homes. Your spokesperson, Rich Azzopardi, 
described this report as ``peer reviewed.'' I'm not sure if Mr. 
Azzopardi understands the peer-review process.
    An effective response to the pandemic required a 
willingness to adapt to evolving data, to new information. It 
will be required for the next pandemic as well.
    It's important to review the data--actual data--to 
recognize the dangerous and disastrous consequences of your 
directive--a directive that goes against medical protocols and 
is considered by many medical professionals to be malpractice.
    You wrote in your book that it wasn't your, quote, ``place 
to filter or edit the truth,'' end quote. But it's clear that 
it seemed to be someone's place.
    You said, ``Who cares?'' But we do care about the truth 
because it's obvious that you don't, like the out-of-facility 
nursing home deaths. It's a truth that matters.
    And that's why we're here today: to ask why you made the 
decisions that you or your executive team made; to try and 
account for your actions and responses without naming and 
blaming others, as you have repeatedly done, because we need to 
help America be prepared for the next pandemic and to protect 
American lives.
    And because infectious diseases like respiratory viruses 
don't recognize borders, we want to protect lives beyond our 
borders as well.
    I look forward to a strong, on-topic discussion today.
    And I would now like to recognize Ranking Member Ruiz for 
the purpose of making an opening statement.
    Dr. Ruiz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Let me begin by taking a moment to acknowledge the seniors 
that our Nation has lost to COVID-19, as well as the grief of 
the families who lost parents and grandparents during the 
pandemic. Each and every life taken by the virus is a tragedy, 
and I am sorry for your loss.
    With 4 years having passed since the height of the COVID-19 
pandemic, many of us have become numb to the grave uncertainty 
that we faced in 2020. That spring, as a novel virus took hold 
across our Nation, hospitals overflowed with patients as 
hundreds--and eventually thousands--of Americans died each day.
    Frontline healthcare workers were forced to wear garbage 
bags as gowns and life as we knew it had come to a total halt. 
Things were in absolute chaos.
    And in the midst of that chaos, public officials at every 
level of government were left to make challenging decisions in 
real time with constantly evolving information and extremely 
limited resources.
    Now, with the darkest days of the pandemic behind us thanks 
to the Biden-Harris Administration's historic work getting 
vaccines in arms, safely reopening schools and businesses, and 
jump-starting our economy, we have the opportunity to look back 
on those decisions and learn from them. And in doing so, we can 
acknowledge that in future public health crises, we would make 
certain decisions differently.
    One such case is policies that arguably required the 
readmission of COVID-19 patients back into nursing homes 
without infection prevention and control in an early effort to 
relieve hospital strain.
    In hindsight, knowing now what we do about how COVID-19 
spreads, including through aerosolized droplets and by 
asymptomatic carriers, these policies were a misstep, and they 
are something we can learn from as we look to better prepare 
for future pandemics.
    However, we must be comprehensive in our examination of 
where things went right and where things went wrong in 
responding to COVID-19. And we would be doing our Nation's 
seniors and nursing home residents a disservice by not taking a 
hard and honest look at the data that has emerged from that 
period.
    And this data shows us that the driving force behind the 
infections and fatalities that occurred in our Nation's nursing 
homes was broader community spread, which led to dedicated 
staff inadvertently bringing the virus into these vulnerable 
settings.
    And as we look back on policy missteps that put our 
Nation's seniors at risk, I would be remiss if I did not 
mention that the issue of community spread, the driving factor 
is one that was severely exacerbated by the severe shortages of 
PPE and tests that our Nation experienced at the hand of former 
President Trump and his Administration's early blunders.
    These failures hampered our efforts to get a handle on the 
outbreak of COVID-19 and left states to fend for themselves 
when it came to obtaining critically needed supplies to protect 
our most vulnerable.
    As Ranking Member, I have championed objectivity and called 
for the Select Subcommittee to put people over politics.
    And in that vein, I want to make something abundantly 
clear. Any public official who sought to obscure transparency 
or mislead the American people during the COVID-19 pandemic 
should answer to the American public regardless of political 
party.
    And that is why the former Governor and members of his 
Administration faced serious questions from both sides of the 
aisle about allegations that they misrepresented nursing home 
fatality data to evade public scrutiny during the closed-door 
transcribed interviews that led up to this hearing.
    It is also why I have been so forceful in my condemnation 
of the former President and his reckless efforts to downplay 
the threat of COVID-19 in the early days of the pandemic.
    The American people deserve honesty, transparency, and 
integrity from their public officials, full stop.
    At the same time, I continue to believe that the greatest 
thing we can do for the American people is contribute to 
forward-looking work of preventing and preparing for future 
pandemics.
    That is why today I am leading Select Subcommittee 
Democrats in announcing new legislation to strengthen infection 
control and prevention efforts in our Nation's nursing homes.
    The SAFER Nursing Homes Act is forward-looking legislation 
that makes new, robust investments in the Centers for Medicare 
and Medicare Services survey and certification efforts which 
uncover incidents of poor or substandard care to be available 
for these crucial oversight activities. Our new legislation 
builds on the Biden-Harris Administration's legacy of 
protecting and advancing the health of our Nation's seniors.
    Earlier this year, the Administration finalized its long-
term care staffing rule which establishes new Federal standards 
to ensure that our parents and grandparents in nursing homes 
receive the highest quality care.
    And in 2022, President Biden and Vice President Harris took 
on Big Pharma and signed into law the historic Inflation 
Reduction Act which kept the monthly cost of insulin at $35 for 
seniors a month and finally allowed Medicare to negotiate for 
lower prescription drug prices.
    One thing is certain: There is still more we can and must 
do to protect and advance the health of our Nation's seniors.
    As we look to strengthen our Nation's preparedness for 
future pandemics and public health threats, it is my hope that 
the Select Subcommittee can play a meaningful role in this 
work.
    And in service of every senior who we lost too soon at the 
hands of the pandemic, it is my hope that we can work together, 
every member of the Select Subcommittee, to make progress on 
this critically important mission so that we can save future 
lives.
    With that, I yield back.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Thank you, Dr. Ruiz.
    Before we proceed with the witness statement, I want to 
announce a subpoena to the Governor of New York for documents 
related to Mr. Cuomo and his March 25 directive.
    The subpoena is vitally important as this inquiry 
continues, and because the current Governor is improperly 
withholding documents from Mr. Cuomo's time that are responsive 
to our requests.
    We hope that Governor Hochul lives up to her promise of 
transparency and proceeds without further delay.
    Our witness today is Mr. Andrew Cuomo. Mr. Cuomo was 
Governor of the state of New York from 2011 to 2021.
    Pursuant to Committee on Oversight and Accountability rule 
9(g), the witness will please stand and raise his right hand. 
Do solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you are 
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God?
    Mr. Cuomo. I do.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Thank you.
    Let the record show that the witness answered in the 
affirmative.
    The Select Subcommittee certainly appreciates you for being 
here today, Governor Cuomo, and we look forward to your 
testimony.
    Let me remind the witness that we have read as much as we 
could of your written statement, and it will appear in full in 
the hearing record as requested. Please limit your oral 
statement to 6 minutes as we agreed upon.
    As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in 
front of you so that it is on and the members can hear you.
    When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will 
turn green. After 5 minutes, the light will turn yellow. When 
the red light comes on, your 6 minutes has expired, and we 
would ask that you please wrap up.
    I now recognize Mr. Cuomo to give an opening statement.

                STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ANDREW CUOMO

                            FORMER GOVERNOR

                           STATE OF NEW YORK

    Mr. Cuomo. Thank you.
    First, to the families of the victims here today and across 
the country, I am sorry for your loss, and I believe you are 
owed an apology because this country should have done better. 
There is no reason why we lost 1.2 million people, more than 
any country on the globe, when we have the most sophisticated 
medical system.
    This committee must deliver real answers so it never 
happens again, and I am here today to help in that mission.
    As you know, New York was hit first and worst by COVID 
through no fault of its own. I did daily briefings, and 
millions listened in because they wanted--no, because they 
needed--information and guidance.
    And, yes, I often vehemently disagreed with President 
Trump, because from day one he willfully deceived the American 
people, denying COVID's very real threat. Telling us that it 
was like the flu. It would go away by Easter. It was a 
Democratic hoax. Use Clorox. And his lies and denials delayed 
our response, let the virus spread, and this country never 
caught up.
    Trump literally said, I take no responsibility, and he 
fabricated political attacks, blaming Democratic Governors, 
including saying that New York issued a health order on March 
25 having COVID-positive people enter nursing homes from 
hospitals, which recklessly and needlessly caused thousands of 
deaths.
    And then Trump weaponized the Department of Justice, 
starting investigations against New York and three other 
Democratic states.
    Trump's shocking allegations, all false, were designed to 
shift blame from him to Democrats, and they did. They also 
created great pain, confusion, and fear for families.
    And this Subcommittee, run by Republicans, repeats the 
Trump lies and deceptions, and it inherently makes two powerful 
admissions.
    First, the report does not deny--contrary to what New York 
Republicans said for 4 years--it does not deny that it was 
actually the Trump Administration, the CMS and CDC, that first 
said in early March that COVID-positive people could go from 
hospitals to nursing homes even if they were still infectious. 
That was your ruling.
    The committee attempts to argue that the New York advisory 
didn't follow the CMS guidance and overrode safety laws. But 
that has already been investigated by the New York Attorney 
General who said you're wrong and who confirmed the March 25 
advisory was in total compliance with Federal guidelines and 
that all New York's nursing home laws remained in effect, 
period.
    In addition, the report provides no evidence to support 
Trump's main allegation, repeated for 3 years, that New York's 
guidance killed thousands in nursing homes. In fact, the report 
finds no causality whatsoever. Not one death. All hype.
    Why? Because it never happened. All credible studies now 
say that COVID came into nursing homes through community spread 
and infected staff, not hospital admissions or readmissions.
    Numbers don't lie. Thirty-five states had a higher death 
rate in nursing homes than New York, including Ohio. Most 
Republican states actually had a higher death rate in nursing 
homes than New York in 2020. And that fact damns them and 
reveals their hypocrisy.
    But these are all diversions to blame New York and other 
states for the culpability of the Federal response, which was 
malpractice. There was no preparation, no PPE, no testing, no 
masks, no science, no leadership.
    As one Republican Governor said about Trump, the General 
was missing in action, leaving 50 states bidding against each 
other for scarce medical supplies. It was the COVID ``Hunger 
Games.'' The Federal Government was nowhere to be found.
    New Yorkers remember well those traumatic days when the 
only sound that echoed through the empty streets were the 
constant sirens from ambulances; when mass graves were being 
dug on Hart Island; when bodies were being stored in 
refrigerated trucks. Our hospital system nearly collapsed. And 
Trump was threatening to send Federal troops to blockade New 
York so no one could leave. That was the Federal response.
    And, yes, New Yorkers were scared. But they were New York 
tough, and they showed that when--showed that they responded to 
government leadership when they believed it was based on facts.
    In that moment in New York, there were no Democrats and 
Republicans, there were just New Yorkers, helping and relying 
on each other. They were guided by their better angels. They 
followed science, took vaccines, wore masks, and acted 
responsibly, one for another. New Yorkers' heroic actions 
brought us back from the brink and saved many, many lives.
    When COVID-19 started in 2020, we had the highest death 
rate in the country. But at the end of 2021, remarkably, New 
York had a lower death rate than 30 states. But even with all 
New Yorkers did, we lost far too many, and I am sorry for every 
life lost.
    In closing, I know this is a political year, and I have 
testified before many, many congressional committees, but this 
issue really matters. There will be another pandemic, and they 
will pull out your report for guidance. I hope it has real 
answers. God forbid 1.2 million people died in vain.
    Thank you.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Thank you.
    I now recognize myself for as much time as I may consume 
for questions, with equal time being afforded to the Ranking 
Member of the committee.
    You know, the question is asked, did the Federal Government 
require that the state of New York mandate that its nursing 
homes admit or readmit residents? The answer is no.
    Did the Federal Government mandate that your state issue a 
directive that prohibited a nursing home from testing an 
admitted or readmitted resident for COVID-19? The answer is no.
    In fact, I don't believe I'm aware of any other state 
besides yours that expressly prohibited a nursing home from 
testing returning or newly admitted residents. Only in New 
York. The other states that have been alleged issued similar 
orders; none were in place as long as New York's.
    So many states reversed course. And I've surmised, because 
it doesn't take a doctor to realize that it was a dangerous, 
misguided plan.
    Nevertheless, Governor, you've maintained and testified to 
us since the pandemic that your directive was based on and 
consistent with CMS and CDC guidelines.
    You're a lawyer, so you know the difference between 
permissive versus prescriptive language, I assume. And the 
words ``shall'' and ``must,'' are they permissive or 
prescriptive? Governor? Are the words ``shall'' and ``must'' 
permissive or prescriptive?
    Mr. Cuomo. It depends on the context.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Well, those words are right in the directive. 
This was not advisory or guidance.
    You have also claimed that the directive followed CMS and 
CDC guidance. Did you ever speak with anyone at CMS or CDC 
about the directive beforehand?
    Mr. Cuomo. You'd have to ask--the Department of Health had 
those conversations.
    Dr. Wenstrup. So, what you're saying is you did not ever 
speak with anyone at CMS or CDC about the directive beforehand?
    Mr. Cuomo. I----
    Dr. Wenstrup. I'm asking you. I can ask them later, but I'm 
asking you.
    Mr. Cuomo. I spoke to the CMS and CDC about a number of 
matters. I don't believe I----
    Dr. Wenstrup. Did you speak to them about the directive 
beforehand, your directive?
    Mr. Cuomo. I did not speak to them about this directive, to 
the best of my recollection.
    Dr. Wenstrup. OK. Not even after? After the directive, did 
you speak with them?
    Mr. Cuomo. To the best of my recollection, no.
    Dr. Wenstrup. OK.
    Mr. Cuomo. Nor did they speak with me.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Not even to ensure that what you----
    Mr. Cuomo. No, they never called.
    Dr. Wenstrup. OK. In fact, no one we interviewed said they 
consulted with them to ensure the applicable science was being 
followed.
    Former White House Coronavirus Coordinator Dr. Deborah 
Birx, she was in charge of all Federal guidance in 2020. She 
testified that your order absolutely violated CMS guidance.
    Is it your position that Dr. Birx lied?
    Mr. Cuomo. My position is you deceived Dr. Birx. You 
suggested to Dr. Birx that we did not have transmission-based 
precautions in place. And that was not true. As you know, the 
Attorney General conducted this investigation. This is not new 
news. These charges were made 4 years ago.
    You then had three Department of Justice investigations 
that reviewed them. You then had an Attorney General's 
investigation that reviewed them.
    The Attorney General of New York, who governs the New York 
law and interprets the New York law, found exactly contrary to 
what you are saying, and said it repeatedly, and you know she 
said it repeatedly.
    She said, quote, ``The March 25 advisory did not require 
admission of COVID-19 patients into nursing homes,'' but rather 
said the admissions could not be denied solely. Solely. 
Merriam-Webster says that means only on the basis of the COVID 
diagnosis.
    The Attorney General said while some commentators--and 
these were Republican commentators she was referring to--
suggested the Department of Health March 25 guidance was a 
directive that nursing homes accept COVID-19 patients even if 
they could not care for them, such an interpretation would 
violate statutes and regulations that place obligations on 
nursing homes to care for residents.
    The March 25 guidance was consistent with the CMS guidance. 
The March 25 guidance was consistent with the CMS guidance if 
nursing homes have the ability to adhere to infection 
prevention and control recommendations.
    It was also consistent with CDC-published transmission-
based precautions. That's the attorney general's position and 
opinion, and that's the law of the state of New York.
    And when you spoke to Dr. Birx, you posed the question 
suggesting we did not have infection protections in place, and 
that was not true.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Mr. Cuomo, you're a lawyer, so you know the 
difference between permissive versus prescriptive language, I 
assume.
    Mr. Cuomo. In a context, I will interpret it for you, as 
the attorney general did here.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Are the words ``shall''----
    Mr. Cuomo. As the Attorney General did here.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Are the words ``shall'' and ``must'' 
permissive or prescriptive?
    Mr. Cuomo. It depends on the context. In this context, the 
nursing homes were not directed to accept anyone. It was up to 
the discretion of the nursing home. That was made abundantly 
clear.
    All the laws of the state of New York remained in effect. 
As a matter of fact, the law of the state of New York says they 
can only accept people who they can care for.
    The law of the state of New York says they have to do a 
full diagnosis before a person comes in. If they have a 
communicable disease, they have to have a written letter saying 
the person is not infectious or an infection plan in place.
    So, every law in the state of New York governing nursing 
homes was in effect, sir.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Well, Governor, there might be a lot of 
lawyers who disagree with you.
    Using the words--using the----
    Mr. Cuomo. The Attorney General----
    Dr. Wenstrup. It's my--excuse me. Using the words ``shall'' 
and ``must,'' these words are right here in the directive. This 
was not advisory or guidance. It wasn't.
    You have also claimed that the directive followed CMS and 
CDC guidance. Did you ever speak with anyone at CMS or CDC 
about the directive beforehand?
    Mr. Cuomo. The Attorney General said it follows CMS 
guidance and is consistent with CMS guidance.
    When you talk about attorneys, yes, I'm an attorney. Yes, 
I'm the former Attorney General of New York. But the law is 
interpreted by the current Attorney General.
    That is how she interpreted the law. That is the law that 
was in place. That was the law that was in place during the 
pandemic. She has sued nursing homes for misconduct during the 
pandemic based on that law.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Thank you, Governor.
    My question was, did you ever speak with anyone--you, 
Governor Cuomo--did you ever speak with anyone at CMS or at CDC 
about the directive beforehand--you, Governor Cuomo?
    Mr. Cuomo. I--you asked that question, and I answered the 
question, and I said no.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Did you or not?
    Mr. Cuomo. I said no. I answered the question no.
    Dr. Wenstrup. OK. Thank you.
    Not even after, correct?
    Mr. Cuomo. I said--yes, and they never called me after. You 
would think if they had a problem with the directive they would 
have called. If it was so outrageous----
    Dr. Wenstrup. You didn't--you didn't even call to----
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. They would have called.
    Dr. Wenstrup. You didn't even call to ensure that you 
were--what you were declaring was accurate. Yes or no?
    Mr. Cuomo. I don't know if the Department of Health 
issued----
    Dr. Wenstrup. Did you, Governor Cuomo--right now I'm 
talking to you, Governor Cuomo.
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Did you even attempt to ensure that what you 
were declaring was accurate? I'm asking you.
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes, I understand.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I don't want to hear about anyone else.
    Mr. Cuomo. OK. Department of Health issued 400 advisories, 
several per day. I did not speak----
    Dr. Wenstrup. Thank you.
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. To CMS about 400 advisories.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Thank you.
    In fact, no one we interviewed said they consulted with 
them to ensure the applicable science was being followed.
    Former White House Coronavirus Coordinator Dr. Deborah 
Birx, she was in charge of all Federal guidance in 2020, she 
testified that your order absolutely violated CMS guidance.
    Is it your position that Dr. Birx lied.
    Mr. Cuomo. You misrepresented the facts to Dr. Birx.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I'm asking you the question. I'm stating what 
she said. I'm not misrepresenting anything. Because this is 
what she said, and I just want you--I'm asking you if Dr. Birx 
lied. That's my question.
    Mr. Cuomo. Dr. Birx said that the March 25 advisory, which 
you read to her in your words, didn't have appropriate 
infection control procedures. That was by your representation.
    The Attorney General's representation is the law of the 
state of New York was in effect, which has an infection control 
plan, mandates they only accept people who they can handle, 
mandates that if the person has a communicable disease that 
it's treated before they accept a person or they don't.
    So, the infection-based control precautions were in place. 
The question to Dr. Birx was: Would you allow admission if 
there were no transmission-based precautions? And she said no. 
And I would agree. But they were in place.
    Dr. Wenstrup. So many states reversed course. And I 
surmise, because it doesn't take a doctor to realize that this 
is a dangerous, misguided plan taking place in New York.
    Nevertheless, Governor, you maintain, testified to us since 
the pandemic, that your directive was based on and consistent 
with CMS and CDC guidelines. And you're a lawyer, so you know 
the difference between permissive versus prescriptive language, 
I assume. Are the words ``shall'' and ``must'' permissive or 
prescriptive?
    Mr. Cuomo. It's not my lawyer. It's the Attorney General of 
the state of New York who interprets the law. That's how the 
law works, sir.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize the ranking member, Dr. Ruiz 
from California, for 5 minutes of questions.
    Dr. Ruiz. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Something I believe every member of the Select Subcommittee 
would agree on is the obligation that every public official has 
to be transparent with the American people, especially during a 
public health crisis.
    Transparency, including with public health data, is 
necessary for public trust, and it's expected of those who hold 
elected office.
    What's more, accurate and comprehensive data is critical to 
develop forward-looking policies to prevent and prepare for 
future pandemics.
    As an emergency physician, I know firsthand that when 
dealing with a new and evolving public health crisis, every 
piece of data can help build a better picture of what we are 
facing and inform better decisions.
    Governor Cuomo, I appreciate your voluntary participation 
in today's hearing, as well as your cooperation with the Select 
Subcommittee in recent months.
    After reviewing nearly 200,000 pages of documents and 
conducting ten closed-door interviews, questions still remain 
regarding the extent of which your administration was 
transparent in reporting nursing home fatality data, both with 
respect to the daily numbers and the numbers included in the 
July 6, 2020, New York State Department of Health report.
    As an initial matter, let's talk generally about your 
administration's public reporting of COVID-19-related deaths.
    So, Governor Cuomo, your administration publicly reported 
COVID-related deaths with a fatality tracker available on a 
public website, correct?
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes, sir.
    Dr. Ruiz. OK. The New York State Department of Health also 
posted a daily report specific to nursing home deaths on a 
publicly available web page, right?
    Mr. Cuomo. I don't know specifically what the Department of 
Health had separately.
    Dr. Ruiz. OK. Initially, the nursing home fatality data 
included deaths both in facility and out of facility, meaning 
in the nursing homes or nursing home patients who were moved 
out of the facility to a hospital, for instance.
    However, in early May 2020, this reporting changed to only 
in-facility deaths. Was this change your decision?
    Mr. Cuomo. No, sir.
    Dr. Ruiz. Whose decision was it?
    Mr. Cuomo. I don't know.
    Dr. Ruiz. This change obviously made the reported number of 
nursing home-related deaths lower.
    Do you know if that was the reason for changing the 
reporting?
    Mr. Cuomo. No. If I may, Doctor, every day I personally did 
a daily briefing and reported the number of deaths. The surest 
place with the most certainty. The most certainty was this is 
the place where they died.
    Every night we got a census from the hospitals. Every night 
we got a census from the nursing homes. Total nursing home 
deaths. Total hospital deaths. I had confidence in those 
numbers.
    As the Republicans started this nursing home scandal 
theory, there were more requests for more subcategories. At-
home deaths. Probable deaths. Presumed deaths. In-facility. 
Out-of-facility.
    And dealing with those subcategories, the numbers were less 
than certain. And they were highly problematic, because you 
were calling up a nursing home and basically asking them to do 
a forensic audit in the middle of a pandemic. Please track this 
patient. They went from the nursing home to home and what 
happened? They went from the nursing home to the hospital; can 
you find out what happened?
    The confidence level in the out-of-facility deaths or 
presumed deaths was very weak and very low. It was very 
important to me that whatever I said I knew was accurate.
    They asked for out-of-facility deaths. They asked for 
presumed deaths. I said when we have accurate numbers I will 
release them, but I'm not going to release numbers that I don't 
believe and we have reason to believe were false. And there was 
a lot of double counting and a lot of mistakes in those 
numbers.
    And, Doctor, my briefings attracted people because they got 
the truth. And whereas President Trump would say a different 
thing every day, I only said what I knew to be a fact. And I 
was not going to put out a number unless I knew it was true. I 
said I was not putting out the out-of-facility deaths until I 
knew they were true.
    But the total number was unchanged. In other words, the 
out-of-facility deaths would have just reallocated deaths from 
hospitals to nursing homes and reduce the hospital number. But 
the total death number was exactly the same.
    Dr. Ruiz. So, the daily reporting was not the only way the 
New York State Department of Health shared nursing home 
fatality deaths with this public. There was a report released 
on July 6, 2020, that purported to be an in-depth analysis of 
nursing home data.
    During the past several months of transcribed interviews, 
Select Subcommittee staff heard from multiple witnesses that 
this report started off as a data-driven scholarly article with 
work from several Department of Health employees.
    But prior to its release, decisions were made by members of 
your Executive Chamber, who were not public health experts, to 
change the numbers in this report. Again, the changes made 
lowered the number of nursing home-related fatalities included 
in the report.
    So, were you aware of the fact that there were seemingly 
two versions of what was released as the July 6, 2020, New York 
State Department of Health report?
    Mr. Cuomo. There were--the purpose of the July 6 report was 
not to do a scholarly article for a medical journal. We're in 
the middle of a pandemic. And there may have been people who 
wanted to do a scholarly article for a medical journal. But 
this had a much more practical purpose. We're in the middle of 
a pandemic. How was COVID getting into the nursing homes? That 
was the question. How was COVID getting into the nursing homes? 
And that was the purpose of the report.
    There were multiple sets of numbers, because the numbers 
kept changing, because the nursing homes were under tremendous 
pressure, and this was a tremendous accounting task that we 
were asking them to do.
    The report used the verified numbers. And I said--because 
this was a question every day, Doctor, this was not like 
surreptitious--I said when we have the out-of-facility numbers 
that we believe are accurate, we will release them. They were 
not in the July 6 report.
    The health commissioner said he had the verified numbers. 
There were unverified numbers. They both backed the same 
conclusion in the report. So, he decided to use the verified 
numbers. And we said when we audit the unverified numbers, we 
will release them.
    So, it was always--everyone was always clear. Here's the 
total deaths. Here are the subcategories that we feel confident 
about. Here is what we don't feel confident about.
    Also, this was very political at the time. President Trump 
was accusing me of overcounting the number. He said I was 
inflating the number to make him look bad, that there were 
actually fewer deaths, and I was inflating the number.
    So, it's ironic that now the accusation is, ``Oh, no, you 
were undercounting the number,'' right? You have to pick it at 
one point.
    Dr. Ruiz. So let me just ask you directly. And let me 
remind that you are under oath, Governor.
    Did you direct your staff to make the number of nursing 
home-related fatalities lower than they actually were?
    Mr. Cuomo. No. We said these are the numbers without the 
out-of-facility death numbers, which we will add when they're 
accurate, which will reduce the hospital count number, but the 
total death number stays exactly the same.
    It was an allocation question. Do you allocate the death to 
the nursing home or do you allocate to it to the hospital? But 
the total death number was the same.
    And the only reason the Republicans were asking these 
questions about nursing home deaths was to further their 
conspiracy theory that there were massive deaths in nursing 
homes, which in my opinion was a pure diversion from the 
Federal malpractice that was going on. Because everybody knows 
that COVID did not get into nursing homes from admissions or 
readmissions, it came in from community spread.
    And the reason why you had so many infected staff workers 
going to work was because the Federal Government had no PPE, no 
masks, no equipment, no warning, no preparation. We had a 
President who lied to us from day one.
    Dr. Ruiz. As ranking member of the Select Subcommittee, I 
am committed to following the facts for an objective analysis 
of how COVID-19 impacted our communities across the country, 
all with the goal of putting us on stronger footing to prevent 
and prepare for future pandemics.
    As I said, accurate and complete data is vital to ensuring 
that we as a country are as prepared as possible to handle the 
next pandemic better than the last.
    And with that, I yield back.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize the Chairman of the full 
committee, Mr. Comer from Kentucky, for 5 minutes of questions.
    Mr. Comer. Thank you.
    Governor Cuomo, do you stand by the March 25, 2020, 
directive?
    Mr. Cuomo. The March 25 directive was based on the CDC/CMS 
guidance.
    Mr. Comer. Do you stand by it?
    Mr. Cuomo. They both do the same thing. Both CMS and CDC--
--
    Mr. Comer. You had said that--excuse me. You had said that 
the directive followed CDC and CMS guidance.
    Are you aware of anyone in your office that asked CDC or 
CMS about the policies in the directive?
    Mr. Cuomo. The Attorney General opined legally they were 
the same and said the March 25 order was consistent with the 
Federal guidance, and that's how it was enforced.
    Mr. Comer. OK. So, you stand by it. And you say it followed 
Federal guidance.
    Then why did it need to be superseded by executive order? 
Was this because you were getting----
    Mr. Cuomo. It was superseded later on--I'm sorry. I didn't 
mean to interrupt you.
    It was superseded later on because we then got to a 
position in May, I believe, where we had enough testing 
capacity, and we mandated testing for nursing home staff.
    Mr. Comer. So, it had nothing to do with public relations 
or----
    Mr. Cuomo. And also, the--this political--this was all 
politics, all the time.
    Mr. Comer. OK.
    Mr. Cuomo. And it bothered and scared people because they 
didn't know who to believe.
    Mr. Comer. OK. OK.
    On June 7, 2020, your executive assistant sent this email, 
writing, and I quote:
    ``This is going to be the great debacle in the history 
books. The longer it lasts, the harder to correct. We have a 
better argument than we made. Get a report on the facts because 
this legacy will overwhelm any positive accomplishment.
    ``Also, how many COVID people were returned to the nursing 
homes in that period? How many nursing homes? Don't you see how 
bad this is? Or do we admit error and give up.''
    Ms. Benton is your executive assistant. I believe she's 
sitting behind you. Did she write this email on your behalf?
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes.
    Mr. Comer. Governor, did you have an email account while 
you were Governor?
    Mr. Cuomo. No. Well, I may have had one, but I didn't use 
it.
    Mr. Comer. OK. Is there a reason?
    Mr. Cuomo. I haven't used it in years.
    Mr. Comer. Did you communicate in other ways with your 
staff, text messages or BlackBerry messages?
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes.
    Mr. Comer. You did.
    You just said that you stood by the directive, but this 
email asks if it was time to admit error and give up.
    Was the March 25 directive an error?
    Mr. Cuomo. No. This was tongue--that--the last line, sir, 
was tongue in cheek. This was an ongoing, raging political 
debate where the Republicans were saying March 25 caused 
deaths. So, I said----
    Mr. Comer. I understand.
    Governor, you testified that you were not aware of the 
directive until April 20, 2020, almost a month after it had 
been issued.
    When you were asked about it at a press conference, after 
you learned of the order, did you have any concerns about the 
directive?
    Mr. Cuomo. When I was asked about it at the press 
conference, I was not aware of it. If I had been aware of it, 
my answer would have been very simple. I would have said: It 
follows--Ask Donald Trump. It follows----
    Mr. Comer. Did you ask questions after you learned about 
the directive?
    Mr. Cuomo. After I learned about it, yes, I asked 
questions.
    Mr. Comer. Give me some examples.
    Mr. Cuomo. I was debriefed by the commissioner of health 
who said this is the theory of CMS and CDC and DOH, that these 
people are no longer infectious.
    Mr. Comer. Did you ever discuss terminating or amending the 
directive after you learned of it?
    Mr. Cuomo. When it was described to me that CDC, CMS, and 
DOH all thought this was a good idea, and they had a medical 
theory behind it, that these were noninfectious people, et 
cetera.
    Mr. Comer. So, for time's sake, Governor, to return to the 
email, why did you direct your staff to get a report on the 
facts?
    Mr. Cuomo. Well, just to counter the newspaper story.
    Mr. Comer. So, on July 6, 2020, the Department of Health 
issued the report you requested.
    Was this report peer reviewed?
    Mr. Cuomo. I don't know.
    Mr. Comer. It was not.
    Was this report in a medical journal?
    Mr. Cuomo. It was not. It was a government report.
    Mr. Comer. It was not.
    Was the----
    Mr. Cuomo. It was not from a medical journal.
    Mr. Comer. Was the Executive Chamber involved in the 
drafting and editing of the report?
    Mr. Cuomo. I'm sure the Executive Chamber was involved.
    Mr. Comer. It was.
    So, you requested a report on the facts, and you got a 
report that was not peer reviewed, not in a medical journal, 
and drafted and edited by the very body accused of wrongdoing.
    So, Governor, do you stand by the July 6 report?
    Mr. Cuomo. So, this is in real time we're acting. An agency 
is taking an action. You ask the agency for a report on the 
action.
    Mr. Comer. Governor, my time has expired.
    Mr. Chairman, what's clear is the Governor was desperate to 
change the narrative to dispel of the notion that his 
Administration failed nursing home residents, that he failed to 
ask any questions.
    And, Governor, I believe you failed to follow the facts. 
And it's now clear that you should have done what your 
assistant suggested in the email, and that was admitted error 
and given up.
    Mr. Cuomo. If you believe the CMS and CDC were wrong, then 
that would be your position.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize the Ranking Member of the 
full committee, Mr. Raskin from Maryland, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
    And, Dr. Ruiz, thank you.
    Thank you for your testimony, Governor Cuomo.
    The allegations that have been brought against you today 
are obviously serious. And because we on the Oversight 
Committee believe in accountability for all public officials, I 
appreciate your willingness to participate voluntarily in 
today's hearing and to answer every question coming at you and 
to address what the majority is saying.
    [Chart.]
    Mr. Raskin. But I confess, Mr. Chairman, that I'm appalled 
by the majority's decision to evade and bypass the central 
events of the epidemic for totally political reasons.
    The broader and authentic context for this hearing is, of 
course, the spectacular failure of Donald Trump's reckless and 
incompetent pandemic response, a failure which led to the 
unnecessary deaths of tens or hundreds of thousands of American 
citizens, according to Trump's own officials.
    In fact, Donald Trump's knowing and willful lies cost 
America at least tens of thousands of deaths, according to his 
own White House Coronavirus Response Coordinator Dr. Deborah 
Birx, who the Chairman just cited as a decisive professional 
and medical authority. And she told the Select Subcommittee 
that more than 130,000 lives would have been saved during the 
Trump Administration if basic and proven public health measures 
had been implemented instead of disregarded.
    On January 22, 2020, when America identified its first case 
of COVID-19, Trump stated, quote, ``We have it totally under 
control.'' He goes on to say, ``One day, it's like a miracle. 
It will disappear. It is going away.''
    He then proceeded to abdicate any responsibility for our 
pandemic response and said, quote, ``I don't take any 
responsibility at all.''
    When he systemically failed to supply the states with 
critical medical equipment and PPE he set off an interstate 
death match for medical supplies, telling Governors simply to, 
quote, ``Try getting it yourselves.''
    Donald Trump said about the virus, ``I always wanted to 
play it down.'' Despite privately acknowledging that COVID-19 
was deadly stuff, he deceived America, assuring everyone the 
virus was, quote, ``just a little like the regular flu.''
    And he embraced the herd immunity theory that some of his 
advisers were promoting, which was again a dangerous and 
destructive thing to do.
    After watching the bodies pile up outside hospitals and 
morgues, Trump then announced he had magical cures. He gave 
quack advice that hydroxychloroquine or disinfectant might be 
effective treatments for COVID. And he predicted the virus 
would, quote, ``like a miracle, disappear by Easter.''
    Despite advice from Dr. Fauci, Trump touted 
hydroxychloroquine and azithromycin as, quote, ``game 
changers'' to be put in use ``immediately.''
    This is the context within which we are discussing a very 
serious and yet nonetheless state-based detail of one policy 
that's being controverted.
    And I appreciate the fact that Governor Cuomo has appeared 
voluntarily to answer the questions. Where is Donald Trump to 
answer the questions about his horrific negligence as 
identified by his own COVID-19 adviser?
    Mr. Raskin. Governor Cuomo, New York was one of the states 
hit first and hit hardest by the pandemic. And I'm sure you 
have some regrets about the decisions that were made in the 
Federal Government, at the state level including in New York, 
at the local level.
    But do you have any doubt that Donald Trump's lies about 
the virus and his deliberate failure to develop a national 
policy to help the states made it more difficult for New York 
and other states to manage their pandemic response?
    Mr. Cuomo. Congressman, I lived this like few others. I 
have little doubt that the problem here was what happened with 
the Federal Government.
    They want to blame the states. They want to focus on New 
York. I understand why; it's a blue state, et cetera. New York 
was the 29th lowest in nursing home deaths. Most Republican 
states had many more deaths. It----
    Mr. Raskin. Is that per capita or hard numbers you're 
talking about?
    Mr. Cuomo. That is pro rata, so per 1,000 nursing home 
deaths. So, the state of New York, for example, had 70 deaths 
per 1,000 in nursing homes in 2020. Ohio, for example, had 97 
deaths. You don't see Ohio here today, or any of the other 
Republican states. It's just a diversion.
    What happened here and the number that matters is 1.2 
million died, more than any country on the globe. How do you 
explain that the United States lost more people than China that 
has four times the population?
    And we know why we lost--why this happened: because the 
President denied it for months, the CDC had no tests, there was 
no PPE. And we lost 3 months before the President woke up and 
realized that there was a virus, and it was too late because 
the infection had spread and you're not going to catch up.
    Mr. Raskin. Well, did you have a problem with then-
President Trump repeatedly praising President Xi for the 
pandemic response in China and saying that he was doing a 
marvelous job?
    Mr. Cuomo. The President's response was horrific and the 
major cause the--the major cause why the virus spread and why 
it became out of control. And that's why----
    Dr. Wenstrup. The gentleman's time has expired.
    So, I now recognize Ms. Stefanik from New York for 5 
minutes of questions.
    Ms. Stefanik. Thank you, Chairman Wenstrup.
    Today is long overdue. And just as a reminder for the 
public tuning in, we are here today on behalf of the over 
15,000 vulnerable seniors in nursing homes who died because of 
Governor Cuomo's fatal executive order on March 25 damning them 
to this horrible fate, including constituents in my district 
and every congressional district in New York State.
    I also want to recognize the families and advocates who 
have been working tirelessly on behalf of their loved ones 
amidst this grief, who have been smeared, attacked, and 
denigrated by Governor Cuomo and his most senior aides.
    Let me begin, first, after months of inquiry and 
investigation, we now know irrefutably what New Yorkers have 
known for years: that Governor Cuomo himself and his most 
senior aides ordered, directed, and executed this deadly 
executive order counter to CMS and CDC guidance.
    Our investigation also reveals--a bipartisan 
investigation--that the disgraced former Governor and his top 
aides were caught covering up their culpability and guilt to 
selfishly save their shredded reputations.
    I want to start with the March 25 directive. Isn't it 
correct, former Governor, that Dr. Zucker served as your 
commissioner of health during the COVID crisis?
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes.
    Ms. Stefanik. And you have stated and shared that you have 
great respect for Dr. Zucker's work and professionalism. You 
have said that in the past. Is that correct?
    Mr. Cuomo. I don't know if I've used those words, but I'll 
take your word for it.
    Ms. Stefanik. Do you have respect for Dr. Zucker and his 
professionalism?
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes.
    Ms. Stefanik. Are you aware that Dr. Zucker testified that 
the March directive was prompted by a direct request to you, 
former Governor Cuomo, from the Greater New York Hospital 
Association? Are you aware of that fact?
    Mr. Cuomo. I'm not aware of his testimony, no.
    Ms. Stefanik. Well, that was what he testified to this 
committee.
    Dr. Zucker also went on to say, quote, ``Greater New York 
Hospital Association called the Governor and the team. We were 
all there in a conversation,'' end quote.
    I also want to add, are you aware that another staffer at 
the Department of Health testified that the March 25 order did 
receive signoff from the Executive Chamber? Are you aware of 
that fact?
    Mr. Cuomo. No. I'm aware of the testimony to the exact 
opposite that you received.
    Ms. Stefanik. That is incorrect. He said, ``Yes, 
absolutely.''
    Mr. Cuomo. That's not the testimony that I have before me.
    Ms. Stefanik. The testimony I have before me, when he was 
asked whether the March 25 order was signed off by the 
Executive Chamber, the answer was, ``Yes, absolutely.''
    And on top of that, Dr. Zucker testified that, quote, 
``everything goes through the Governor's office.''
    And, by the way, Governor, you and I both know that under 
your terrible leadership in New York everything does go through 
the Governor's office.
    My followup is, it wasn't just the directive itself, 
Governor; it was the cover-up. This investigation found that 
you, former Governor, and your most senior aides made a 
deliberate decision to exclude certain COVID-19-related nursing 
home deaths to hide and undercount the actual mortality rate in 
nursing homes.
    And for the public, Governor Cuomo changed the methodology 
of counting nursing home fatalities to exclude out-of-facility 
deaths, to undercount those.
    I want to ask you, what period of time were you negotiating 
for your book deal?
    Mr. Cuomo. Congresswoman, if there was a fact in what you 
said----
    Ms. Stefanik. No, I'm asking you a question. I'm asking you 
a question. What dates----
    Mr. Cuomo. Well----
    Ms. Stefanik [continuing]. Did you negotiate for your book 
deal? That is the question before you today.
    Mr. Cuomo. I'm answering the question that you asked.
    Ms. Stefanik. No, no, no. The question that I asked----
    Mr. Cuomo. My testimony says, ``During that time, did you 
have any discussions with the Executive Chamber regarding the 
need for guidance?''
    Ms. Stefanik. That's not the testimony I'm referring to.
    Mr. Cuomo. ``Not that I recall.''
    Ms. Stefanik. ``Absolutely'' was the answer.
    Mr. Cuomo. ``Not that I recall.''
    Ms. Stefanik. Governor, ``Absolutely''--you're throwing 
your staff----
    Mr. Cuomo. Also----
    Ms. Stefanik [continuing]. Under the bus. You are culpable 
for this. My question to you is----
    Mr. Cuomo. Also----
    Ms. Stefanik [continuing]. When were you negotiating for 
your multimillion-dollar advance deals for your book as seniors 
were dying in nursing homes?
    Mr. Cuomo. Also----
    Ms. Stefanik. That is the question in front of you.
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. You can't make up facts, 
Congresswoman.
    Ms. Stefanik. You're the one making up facts.
    Mr. Cuomo. I'm----
    Ms. Stefanik. You're the one who undercounted nursing----
    Mr. Cuomo. The attorney general----
    Ms. Stefanik [continuing]. Home deaths. You're the one who 
I want to ask right now----
    Mr. Cuomo. The attorney general said the exact opposite.
    Ms. Stefanik [continuing]. You apologized today, but there 
are families sitting here. I want you to turn around, look them 
in the eye, and apologize----
    Mr. Cuomo. This is not----
    Ms. Stefanik [continuing]. Which you have failed to do.
    Mr. Cuomo. Congresswoman----
    Ms. Stefanik. Will you do it?
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. This is not about political 
theater; it's about----
    Ms. Stefanik. No, this is about accountability.
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Giving answers. Why did 1.2 million 
Americans die? Why did more----
    Ms. Stefanik. Why are you----
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Americans die than any----
    Ms. Stefanik. No, no, no, no, no.
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Country on the globe?
    Ms. Stefanik. You're the former Governor----
    Mr. Cuomo. Why did you let the President----
    Ms. Stefanik [continuing]. Disgraced, under oath----
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Lie----
    Ms. Stefanik. This executive order----
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. To the people of the United States?
    Ms. Stefanik [continuing]. Was under your name. It was 
counter to CDC and CMS----
    Mr. Cuomo. Why did you let President Trump lie?
    Ms. Stefanik. This is about those seniors, Governor. They--
--
    Mr. Cuomo. I understand you were running for Vice 
President----
    Ms. Stefanik [continuing]. Deserve to hear from you, in the 
eye----
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. But you should've stood up for the 
constituents first.
    Ms. Stefanik [continuing]. That you apologize that you were 
negotiating for a multimillion-dollar book deal.
    It is a disgrace. There is a reason why you are the former 
Governor of New York State, and you will never hold elected 
office again.
    I yield back.
    [Applause.]
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize Mrs. Dingell from Michigan, 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Mfume. Mr. Chairman, I have a point of order.
    I believe the rules of decorum prohibit applause and boos 
and other expressions during a hearing.
    Dr. Wenstrup. The audience will please refrain from 
applause or other voices of concern from the audience.
    I now recognize Mrs. Dingell from Michigan for 5 minutes of 
questioning.
    Mrs. Dingell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Governor Cuomo, thank you for appearing before the Select 
Subcommittee today.
    As you are hearing and you are aware, your Administration 
has faced allegations that it did not transparently report 
nursing home deaths. I want to give you the opportunity to 
respond to those allegations in a calm way.
    On July 6, 2020, the New York State Department of Health 
released a report related to nursing home COVID-19 deaths. That 
report has since been criticized, and we've been discussing, 
for undercounting deaths by excluding those deaths that 
occurred outside of the facility--for example, at the hospital.
    How do you respond to that criticism, shortly--briefly?
    Mr. Cuomo. Congresswoman, we were reporting total deaths 
every day--the number in hospitals, the number in nursing 
homes.
    This political dispute started, how many deaths in nursing 
homes; let's go count those that were in hospitals, what they 
call ``out-of-facility.'' Those numbers, in my opinion, were 
very sketchy, and they--depending on the day, they moved around 
a lot.
    I was not going to report inaccurate information, so we 
specifically said, here is the nursing home number without the 
out-of-facility number, and when we have it, we will provide 
it.
    But it didn't change the conclusion of the report. It 
specifically said, we do not now have the out-of-facility 
number; we will provide it to you once we audit it.
    We did audit it. It was wrong, over 20 percent, and then it 
was corrected.
    Mrs. Dingell. OK----
    Mr. Cuomo. But the total number of--which was 35,739 total 
deaths--that is what never changed.
    Congresswoman, I lived this every day----
    Mrs. Dingell. OK. I have some more questions for you. Thank 
you.
    Mr. Cuomo. OK.
    Mrs. Dingell. At your transcribed interview, you told us 
that Dr. Howard Zucker, the head of your Department of Health, 
decided what numbers to put in the July 6 report. But for his 
part, Dr. Zucker testified that he does not know how that 
decision was made.
    A member of your COVID-19 task force told us that Melissa 
DeRosa made the decision to remove the out-of-facility deaths 
from the July 6 report. Other members of your COVID-19 task 
force testified similarly.
    In your transcribed interview--and you've heard it referred 
to here--you said, ``Let's say there's a 3,000 differential, 
2,500. Who cares? What difference does it make in any dimension 
to anyone about anything?''
    I want to say, Governor Cuomo, I care. Every member of this 
committee cares. And, more importantly, every family member who 
lost a family member cared. So, let's be very clear about that.
    With that said, can you help us reconcile the contradiction 
between your testimony and the testimony offered by individuals 
you handpicked for your COVID-19 task force?
    Mr. Cuomo. Congresswoman, there were a number of 
subcategories: in-facility, out-of-facility, presumed, 
hospital, at-home deaths. And those categories, yes, as data 
points, are going to be important.
    In the middle of the pandemic, in the middle of the frenzy, 
when nursing homes are shorthanded and they're working to save 
lives, to ask them to go through an accounting process wasn't 
the best use of time.
    The total number never changed, and that's what was most 
important. And we said, when we do an audit of the individual 
categories, we will release the individual category numbers.
    So that was always clear, that the total death number was 
right, but we had to do the allocation within the categories.
    Mrs. Dingell. So, we've heard there were concerns about 
data errors, particularly during the spring and summer of 2020, 
leading your Administration not to publish the out-of-facility 
deaths. But it wasn't until February 2021 that your 
Administration decided that its nursing home report should 
include those deaths.
    Why did it take so long for your Administration to include 
those out-of-facility deaths in the nursing home reports?
    Mr. Cuomo. That's a good question, Congresswoman. Because 
we were doing the audits of the numbers. President Trump 
started a Department of Justice investigation against New York 
and several other Democratic states on nursing home data. It 
was a political investigation; that was clear. But the easiest 
indictment is if a false number was created. So those numbers--
--
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize Ms. Malliotakis from New 
York----
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Needed to be double-checked and 
triple-checked.
    Dr. Wenstrup [continuing]. For 5 minutes of questioning.
    Your time has expired, gentleman.
    Ms. Malliotakis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Governor Cuomo, I had planned a series of questions, but 
after reading your opinion piece in this Sunday's Daily News 
and hearing your testimony here today, I'll use my time to 
correct the half-truths and lies that insult New Yorkers.
    You cite CMS data to claim New York had the 12th-lowest 
death rate at the end of 2020. However, CMS began collecting 
data in mid-May, so the deaths when your deadly directive was 
in full force were not included. Your Administration reported 
6,000 deaths. The true toll was 11,400, nearly double.
    You assert your March 25 directive never mandated nursing 
homes to admit COVID-positive patients. This is false. Your 
directive very clearly says no resident shall be denied, and it 
prohibited COVID testing before admission.
    In your op-ed and again today, you claim that the directive 
mirrored CDC guidelines. This is also false. Both CMS and CDC 
used permissive language like ``can'' and ``should,'' not 
``shall'' and ``must,'' and only if facilities could isolate 
and take precautions.
    Former CMS Administrator Seema Verma, former White House 
Dr. Deborah Birx, both testified that your action violated 
those guidelines. CDC and CMS would never recommend prohibiting 
testing, yet your directive did--all while you were sending 
tests to the Hamptons for your family.
    And you also falsely claimed this directive was the 
standard across the country, even trying to hide behind 
Minnesota Governor Tim Walz's directive, when Minnesota's 
guidance actually included caveats, precautions, it didn't 
prevent nursing homes from testing patients like your directive 
did.
    You claimed that the March 25 directive was to protect 
hospital capacity. But you had the U.S. Navy Comfort ship and 
the Javits Center deployed and--and it remained underutilized.
    You said that nursing homes could still have denied entry 
to those they could not safely care for under existing law. But 
you suspended that very regulation in a March 7, 2020, 
executive order stripping nursing homes of that ability to deny 
admission.
    And on top of all of that, you say New York didn't 
undercount nursing home deaths. Yet your chief of staff 
directed that the deaths of nursing home residents outside the 
facility not be counted.
    And, later, exactly 1 month after the New York Attorney 
General exposed that you underreported the nursing home deaths 
by 50 percent, your chief told Democrat lawmakers in New York 
that--she admitted that the true toll was withheld to avoid 
attracting prosecutors. That, Governor Cuomo, is a cover-up.
    You've tried to blame everyone, including the CDC, the CMS, 
nursing home operators, nursing home staff, an unidentified 
low-level DOH staffer that supposedly sent out this directive, 
and of course President Trump. But the buck stops with you.
    You testified that you don't know who signed off on this 
March 25 directive, and your DOH commissioner did not either, 
you say, despite both of your names--both of your names--being 
at the top of the letterhead.
    In the closed-door testimony, both you and your chief of 
staff told the committee it was some mid-level staffer at the 
Department of Health. But the commissioner and the deputy 
commissioner of the Department of Health said it was your 
Executive Chamber that approved it.
    You did not have a name on June 11. Do you have one today? 
Who signed off on this directive?
    Mr. Cuomo. Well----
    Ms. Malliotakis. Was it you?
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Let me try to----
    Ms. Malliotakis. Was it the Lieutenant Governor, Kathy 
Hochul? Was it your----
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes, let me----
    Ms. Malliotakis [continuing]. Chief of staff, Melissa--no, 
it's a ``yes'' or ``no.'' I mean, was it you? Was it Kathy 
Hochul? Was it your chief of staff, Melissa DeRosa? Or maybe it 
was that communist spy. Maybe it was that communist Chinese 
spy, Linda Sun, who worked in your administration.
    Mr. Cuomo. Well, maybe----
    Ms. Malliotakis. Let me just please finish, and I'll let 
you answer at the end.
    Because I find it hard to believe, Governor, that the 
Governor of the state of New York--you're known to be a 
micromanager, right?--who did a briefing every day for 111 
straight days. We find it hard to believe that you did not know 
that this directive, with such consequences, went out with your 
name at the top and that you didn't get to the bottom--right? 
Don't you want to get to the bottom of who did issue this, 
after all the media attention, the public scrutiny, the deaths 
that resulted?
    You've shown--I'm sorry, but you've shown no empathy, 
you've shown no remorse, you show no responsibility for the 
actions of your Administration. And that's simply--that's just 
not leadership.
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes----
    Ms. Malliotakis. And I will say also that Lieutenant--your 
lieutenant and successor, Governor Kathy Hochul, is just as 
determined to hide the truth from New Yorkers as you were.
    In her very first speech as Governor, she promised 
transparency, including the release of documents related to 
nursing homes in the pandemic, and to this day she has not 
fulfilled that promise. And I'm glad that we've issued a 
subpoena to get those documents.
    So, who issued this executive order, this deadly directive?
    Mr. Cuomo. Congresswoman----
    Ms. Malliotakis. And why didn't you reverse the directive 
when you had alternative facilities like the Javits and South 
Beach Psychiatric Center on Staten Island?
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes. Congresswoman, quickly, the numbers I cited 
are published on the NIH website. It's a study that corrects 
for the numbers not received in May.
    The--Dr. Birx and Dr. Seema were not presented an honest 
account of what the New York law says. It's the attorney 
general who said and interprets New York laws. And you were in 
the legislature, and you know that the----
    Dr. Wenstrup. The time has expired.
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Attorney general's interpretation--
--
    Dr. Wenstrup. Governor, the time has expired.
    Ms. Malliotakis. Can he answer----
    Mr. Cuomo. Sorry----
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize--yes, maybe for the record 
you can answer the question that she actually asked.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize Mr. Mfume from Maryland for 5 
minutes of questions.
    Mr. Mfume. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I want to thank both 
you and Ranking Member Ruiz for calling us together again in 
this Select Subcommittee.
    I've often, as you know, Mr. Chairman, gone on the record 
to vocalize my support for our work on this committee on the 
pandemic and the aftermath, because, at its very core, if we do 
it correctly, it will better prepare all of us for whatever 
comes next. And what comes next just could very well be another 
pandemic.
    So, my definition of the right way is to kind of leave the 
theatrical politics aside and to act in a bipartisan, solution-
oriented manner. It doesn't mean that we agree, doesn't mean 
that we're going to disagree. But at the end of the day, we've 
got to be driven, I think, by a real effort to peel off the 
theatrics and to try to get to where we, in fact, want to go.
    I'm glad that on several occasions today both you, Mr. 
Chair, and the Governor have expressed your heartfelt 
condolences for these families that are left behind with empty 
tables to continue, 4 years later, dealing with the aftermath 
of this.
    I didn't really, coming on this committee, feel that there 
was a personal connection except when I first heard the 
testimony of our colleague from California, Mr. Garcia, and how 
he lost both his mother and his father--not in New York, but 
across the Nation, these sort of stories still haunt all of us.
    And so that's why I think that this committee's work is 
almost sacred in that regard. We've got to find a way to do all 
that we can to get information, to build a roadmap, and to try 
to limit any further damage.
    Governor Cuomo, thank you for appearing here voluntarily 
today. A couple of quick questions.
    Is it your testimony, sir, that the nursing home deaths 
were not caused by CMS, CDC, or DOH policies but, rather, as 
you state--that that was, in fact, not the case, but you have 
more to say about it. And I want you to take this moment to say 
that, if you would.
    Mr. Cuomo. Thank you, Congressman.
    This is a red herring. I understand it's sensational and 
it's been great politics for 4 years and it's a diversion from 
Federal responsibility, which is the main goal of this 
committee's majority.
    But every study says that COVID got into the nursing homes 
from infected staff--community spread, infected staff. 
Neighborhoods that had higher COVID infection rates had higher 
COVID infection rates in their nursing homes. It literally was 
walked in by the staff.
    Why? Because January, February, March, April, you had no 
ability to test nursing home staff, because, between the World 
Health Organization and CDC, they never created enough tests 
for the nursing home staff.
    Mr. Mfume. Uh-huh.
    Mr. Cuomo. So good people went home, went out to a 
restaurant, got the bug, they brought it to work the next day.
    Every study says that. And that has nothing to do with 
hospital admissions or readmissions.
    Mr. Mfume. And, Governor, is it your testimony that you 
told your team only to release information that had been 
verified?
    Mr. Cuomo. I was not going to release inaccurate 
information. I leave that to President Trump.
    Mr. Mfume. Is it also your testimony that an error in 
judgment was made by you because of an assumption that the CDC 
and CMS and other Federal agencies were actually providing 
official guidance, only to be counteracted by the GAO, which 
made a finding that contradicted that?
    Mr. Cuomo. One hundred percent. If there was a mistake, 
it's that DOH was relying on CMS and CDC, and that was before 
we found out that there was political interference by the 
President and mass confusion in the management.
    Mr. Mfume. And, Governor, you have taken a moment to 
express condolences; to offer, also, the fact that you were not 
perfect in these decisions; that, I assume, if you had a chance 
to do it all over again, there would be some different 
approaches to this.
    What do you want this committee to take from your testimony 
today, as we juxtapose this against this history that has gone 
on now for 4 years?
    Mr. Cuomo. Congressman, I think, forget the politics of the 
4 years and the rhetoric of the 4 years--because that's all it 
was. Look at the facts. How did the virus spread? This is 
science. This is medicine.
    We know what happened. We know what happens when you have 
no testing and no PPE and no vials. We know the science and why 
this country did worse than every other country on the globe.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Thank you.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize Dr. Miller-Meeks from Iowa 
for 5 minutes of questions.
    Dr. Miller-Meeks. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you, Governor Cuomo, for testifying before the 
Select Subcommittee today.
    I was hoping that we would see a Governor Cuomo that was 
less defensive and that was remorseful over what happened in 
New York, but I see that that person has not shown up today.
    The COVID-19 pandemic is long behind us. As a matter of 
fact, we were already behind it, through it, at the time this 
Administration came into office. And an overwhelming majority 
of Americans have some form of immunity, whether from prior 
infection--which was denied by the current Administration and 
CDC, both Dr. Fauci at NIH and Dr. Walensky as testifying 
before this committee. And we know more about the virus than 
ever before. That is undeniably true.
    But because of this Select Subcommittee, we've also had the 
opportunity to review policies, guidance, and practices from 
the pandemic to determine what worked and what didn't work.
    And let me also say, I'm one of the few members that was on 
this committee the last term--now my fourth year--as was 
Representative Raskin, my colleague on the other side of this 
dais, who could've easily asked you to testify when they were 
in the majority. However, you were never asked to testify 
during that 1921-22 period. And they could've also asked a 
former President to testify. So let me just say that that 
could've be done.
    You know, as a nurse, physician, a veteran, a former 
Director of Public Health, I really understand that we need to 
have policies going forward that guide us for the next 
pandemic.
    And there were two aspects of the coronavirus that health 
officials understood very clearly from the beginning from the 
Chinese Communist Party. One was how contagious it was, and 
two, how contagious it was among older people and people that 
had medical conditions that were at an increased risk of death 
from the infection.
    And in February 2021, the Associated Press published an 
article outlining how, in New York State, more than 9,000 
elderly patients who still had active coronavirus infections 
were sent back to nursing homes after being discharged from the 
hospital. Despite this clear lack of medical oversight, that 
number was 40 percent higher than what the New York Health 
Department originally reported.
    And in the same report your Administration published, the 
overall number of deaths in long-term-care facilities was 
underreported by half, regardless of what excuses you present 
today to us.
    The State Health Commissioner tried shifting the blame by 
claiming most nursing home deaths were from asymptomatic staff 
who unknowingly transmitted infection. As a former State Public 
Health Director, I find it completely appalling and 
disrespectful that you tried to conscript your own health 
department in covering up your harmful policies.
    You prohibited nursing homes from requiring testing. The 
CMS guidance allowed you and allowed nursing homes, allowed 
states, to have the decision on who got admitted if they had 
proper allocation and proper separation in facilities. However, 
if you had an infection control program, as you said here today 
now, that prohibited someone infectious from being admitted to 
a nursing home, why would you tie the hands of nursing homes by 
prohibiting testing?
    You said, how is COVID getting into nursing homes? How in 
the hell would you know if you prohibited testing? Testing was 
available. The CDC made mistakes in their testing; we 
understand that. But you prohibited nursing homes from testing 
individuals coming from hospitals who could've easily had 
COVID-19.
    Governor Cuomo, despite you clearly understanding the 
likelihood of COVID-19 running through nursing homes like fire 
through dry grass, as you said to Jared Kushner, your 
Administration still required facilities to accept elderly 
residents who had active COVID-19 infections and you prohibited 
testing. It really is shameful. But yet you want to continue to 
deflect the blame.
    So, did you advise Governor Newsom of California or 
Governor Murphy of New Jersey or Governor Whitmer of Michigan 
on what they should do with nursing home admissions?
    Mr. Cuomo. All Democrats. What a coincidence.
    Dr. Miller-Meeks. Well, I'm going to ask you, did you talk 
to Governor Reynolds?
    Mr. Cuomo. I was on multiple calls with the Vice President 
and the Governors Association. CMS----
    Dr. Miller-Meeks. Thank goodness they didn't adopt your 
policies.
    Mr. Cuomo. CDC----
    Dr. Miller-Meeks. Did you talk to Governor Reynolds?
    Mr. Cuomo. CDC and CMS allows the transfer of infectious--
COVID-positive infectious people. And New York nursing homes do 
have the right----
    Dr. Miller-Meeks. Sir, they did not----
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. To deny anyone.
    Dr. Miller-Meeks. They did not--there was specific 
guidance. You did not follow the guidance. You did not allow 
your own public health officials to follow the guidance that 
was given to them.
    And in addition to which, we now know some states didn't 
adopt 6-feet distancing, nor did they adopt closing schools--
i.e., Iowa did not--despite CMS's guidance, which could have 
been altered or adhered to by the directive of a particular 
state.
    So, I find you complicit in what's occurred. And I find the 
fact that you don't take any--you know, any remorse or any 
accountability and responsibility for what happened to be 
appalling.
    Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mr. Cuomo. Congresswoman----
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize Ms. Ross from North 
Carolina----
    Mr. Cuomo. Congresswoman, if you----
    Dr. Wenstrup [continuing]. Five minutes for questions.
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Believe CDC and CMS were wrong----
    Dr. Wenstrup. Governor Cuomo----
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes?
    Dr. Wenstrup [continuing]. Your time has expired. The time 
has expired.
    Mr. Cuomo. But I would like to respond to----
    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chairman, point of order about this. When a 
question----
    Dr. Wenstrup. There wasn't a question.
    Mr. Raskin. OK, but in general----
    Dr. Wenstrup. There wasn't a question.
    Mr. Raskin. Well, I've noticed a pattern, Mr. Chairman. 
When a question is posed to the witness, does he have the 
opportunity to answer it before he moves on? Because, 
otherwise----
    Dr. Wenstrup. Mr. Raskin----
    Mr. Raskin. A point of order.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Mr. Raskin, you got an additional, like, 
minute and a half. Your----
    Mr. Raskin. And the guy before me got 2 minutes.
    Dr. Wenstrup [continuing]. Time expired when you asked the 
last question. We need to----
    Mr. Raskin. OK. You're changing the subject. I'm asking you 
a point of order.
    Dr. Wenstrup. We need to keep this----
    Mr. Raskin. I'm asking you a point of order, which is, if 
someone poses him a question with 4 minutes and 59 seconds 
expired----
    Dr. Wenstrup. He wasn't asked a question.
    Mr. Raskin [continuing]. He can answer it? Yes?
    Dr. Wenstrup. It's not a valid point of order because it's 
now Ms. Ross's time.
    Mr. Raskin. So, you're not going to answer the question?
    Ms. Ross. Today's hearing raises important questions about 
the work the Federal Government must do to protect and advance 
the health of our Nation's seniors and nursing home residents.
    During our prior hearing on this topic in May of last year, 
we heard about the essential role that COVID-19 vaccines played 
in turning the tide on the pandemic in nursing homes.
    However, the Trump Administration's sluggish and 
disorganized roll-out of the COVID-19 vaccine in the final 
weeks of 2020 cost us valuable time, at a period when thousands 
of Americans were dying every day.
    Moreover, families across the country were overwhelmed by 
feelings of helplessness as they could not visit their loved 
ones or know how they were doing.
    During the early stages of the COVID-19 pandemic, nursing 
homes were under extreme pressure, and we've heard about that 
today. They faced severe shortages of PPE, staffing issues, and 
lacked sufficient infection-control measures. Nursing homes 
were hotspots for COVID-19 infections due to the vulnerability 
of elderly residents in close living conditions.
    By May 2020, over 28,000 nursing home residents and staff 
nationwide had died from the virus. By early 2021, my home 
state of North Carolina reported that about 6 percent of total 
COVID-19 cases occurred in long-term-care facilities, but these 
cases accounted for approximately 44 percent of the state's 
deaths.
    Nursing home administrators, such as Amanda Pack from White 
Oak Manor in Charlotte, described the situation as one of the 
most terrifying experiences in her decades-long career. Several 
facilities faced overwhelming outbreaks, with hundreds of 
residents and staff infected.
    This was a nationwide problem, not just a New York problem.
    Governor Cuomo, what challenges did your state face in 
working with the Trump Administration on the COVID-19 vaccine's 
roll-outs? And what improvements could've been made to the 
vaccine roll-out process that would've saved lives?
    Mr. Cuomo. Congresswoman, thank you very much.
    The Congressman quoted me as saying ``fire through dry 
grass.'' You didn't have to be a genius to understand that this 
was going to be a problem in nursing homes. The first 
experience was the Kirkland nursing home in Seattle, 
Washington, where 30 out of about 100 residents were COVID-
positive. So, we knew exactly where it was going, and nothing 
was done.
    The first step is testing. You cannot do anything without 
testing. And, in this case, the testing--first of all, the CDC 
insisted on doing testing themselves. They would not allow our 
state laboratory to do testing. Second of all, the CDC refused 
to use the WHO, which had already come up with a test that was 
developed in Germany and----
    Ms. Ross. Governor, I would like you to answer the question 
about the vaccines, because I have one more thing----
    Mr. Cuomo. I'm sorry.
    Ms. Ross [continuing]. To do after you finish.
    Mr. Cuomo. The vaccine roll-out was painfully slow. It was 
constant mismanagement and delay by the Federal Government.
    Ms. Ross. Thank you.
    Just last month, the Department of Health and Human 
Services' Office of the Inspector General released a report 
highlighting the need for strengthened state survey and 
oversight activities to ensure that infection-prevention 
requirements are appropriately followed.
    Mr. Chairman, I'd like to seek unanimous consent to enter 
this HHS OIG report into the hearing record.
    Dr. Wenstrup. So ordered.
    Ms. Ross. I also want to point out that Dr. Ruiz's Safer 
Nursing Home Act is about the kind of forward-thinking work 
that this committee needs to do. I hope that it's a bipartisan 
bill. I hope that we can get it done before the end of this 
Congress. Because, going forward, sustained investment in these 
types of activities will help ensure that our Nation's nursing 
homes are better equipped to respond to future infectious 
disease threats, and my hope is that this legislation can be a 
starting point.
    Thank you, and I yield back.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize Mrs. Lesko from Arizona for 5 
minutes of questions.
    Mrs. Lesko. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    For the American people, I want to read parts of the 
directive from March 25, 2020, that you, Governor Cuomo, 
directed.
    It says, quote, ``No resident shall be denied readmission 
or admission to the nursing home solely based on a confirmed or 
a suspected diagnosis of COVID-19. Nursing homes are prohibited 
from requiring a hospitalized resident who is determined 
medically stable to be tested for COVID-19 prior to admission 
or readmission.''
    Today, Governor Cuomo, you claimed that your nursing home 
directive was just following Federal guidance. I find that hard 
to believe, sir, and let me tell you why.
    There was--on October 13, 2021, Dr. Deborah Birx, in a 
transcribed interview, was asked this question: ``On the bottom 
of page 4 of the CMS guidance, it gives guidance on how to 
return a resident diagnosed with COVID-19 back to their nursing 
home, and it says it should be done if a facility can follow 
CDC guidance for transmission-based precautions. First, what 
would those transmission-based precautions have been?''
    Her answer: ``So that would require isolation and gowning, 
masking, and ensuring no contact with other residents.''
    Then the question was: ``Administrator Verma''--the CMS 
Administrator Verma--``said under no circumstances should a 
hospital discharge a patient to a nursing home that is not 
prepared to take care of those patients' needs. Is that 
correct?
    Her answer: ``Correct.''
    Question: ``If we turn now to the New York guidance''--
meaning your directive--``does that have the same qualifier of 
'able to take CDC precautions' as the CMS guidance required?''
    Her answer: ``No.''
    Question: ``So would the March 25 directive have violated 
CMS guidance?''
    Her answer: ``Yes.''
    Then, ``Do you think''--question: ``Do you think admitting 
potentially positive COVID-19 nursing home residents back into 
the nursing home without the ability to quarantine or isolate 
them is dangerous and could lead to unnecessary deaths?''
    Her answer: ``Yes. I think that's why the CDC guidance was 
very clear about precautions needed to protect them. And I 
think that's why CMS Administrator Seema Verma was proactively 
working on an infectious control guidance.''
    Well, today, you also said it was up to the discretion of 
the nursing homes if they admitted COVID sick patients. You 
said today that the patients weren't infectious.
    So, my question to you, sir: How would the nursing homes 
know if the patient was infectious or had COVID-19 if your 
directive explicitly--let me quote: ``Nursing homes are 
prohibited from requiring a hospitalized resident who is 
determined medically stable to be tested for COVID-19 prior to 
admission.''
    Mr. Cuomo. Congresswoman, I understand the question.
    Here's the basic disconnect: This was an advisory. The 
Department of Health did 10, 12, 15 advisories a day, 400 in a 
couple of weeks. They did not substitute for the existing state 
law. And the state law remains in place.
    And the state law says on a nursing home: 415.26, you 
cannot accept a person who you can't care for; 415.19 says, you 
must have an infection control plan in place if the person has 
to be quarantined; contact the----
    Mrs. Lesko. Let me interrupt, because I have 44 seconds 
left.
    Sir, how could your directive even then follow the New York 
state law if it prohibits--prohibits--it says, nursing homes 
are prohibited from testing for COVID.
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes.
    Mrs. Lesko. How could you even follow your own state law, 
CMS guidance, CDC guidance, if your own directive prohibits the 
testing?
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes. The directive says they have to talk to the 
doctor, the person----
    Mrs. Lesko. No. No.
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Has to be medically stable----
    Mrs. Lesko. No. The directive does not say that. This is 
exactly what the directive says: ``Nursing homes are prohibited 
from requiring a hospitalized resident who is determined 
medically stable to be tested for COVID-19 prior to admission 
or readmission.''
    Sir, I'm sorry, but I find your----
    Mr. Cuomo. It says----
    Mrs. Lesko [continuing]. Testimony very, very hard to 
believe.
    Mr. Cuomo. If I could, it says----
    Dr. Wenstrup. The gentlelady's----
    Mrs. Lesko. I'm over time, and I yield back.
    Dr. Wenstrup. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    I now recognize Dr. Joyce from Pennsylvania for 5 minutes 
of questions.
    Dr. Joyce. Thank you, Chairman Wenstrup, for convening this 
important hearing.
    As this Subcommittee has examined the U.S. response to the 
COVID-19 pandemic, a disturbing trend has emerged: public 
officials making decisions that were not based on science but, 
instead, based on public perception and, even worse, political 
concerns.
    This became abundantly clear when Dr. Fauci appeared in 
front of this committee and testified that the 6-feet social-
distancing rule was not based on scientific evidence.
    In another example, in my home state of Pennsylvania, 
Pennsylvania Health Secretary Dr. Rachel Levine directed 
nursing homes to accept COVID-19 patients even as she moved her 
own mother out of a personal care home.
    These incidents have fractured the trust between the 
American people and public health officials, which will only 
hinder our ability to respond to future pandemics.
    Governor Cuomo, during the COVID-19 pandemic, you 
acknowledged the danger, and you reiterated that today, giving 
your quote, for nursing homes, this could be like a fire 
through dry grass. This is a very callous and insensitive 
remark from anyone and especially insensitive from an elected 
official.
    And, despite this, a directive was still issued mandating 
that COVID-19-positive patients be admitted to nursing homes 
and that no testing for COVID-19 be conducted before any 
resident was admitted or readmitted. This was an ill-guided 
decision, and it led to the death of some of our most 
vulnerable citizens--those in nursing homes.
    You then pushed for and edited a report that blamed nursing 
home employees for the rate of infections and death. You 
willfully directed blame toward the health professional working 
to care for these individuals. You, sir, you placed that risk.
    When reporting deaths from nursing homes, thousands of 
deaths were unaccounted for due to a change in reporting 
methodologies, which, according to witness testimony, came from 
your office. When your decisions contributed to the death of 
thousands of elderly Americans, the scale of these deaths was 
underreported by more than 30 percent.
    And rather than ignoring prevailing public health guidance 
and working to hide the human cost of this decision, you 
could've instead utilized the tremendous Federal help that was 
offered to New York in order to help alleviate the strain on 
the hospital system.
    Governor Cuomo, rather than sending COVID-19-positive 
seniors back to nursing homes, why did you not work to have 
more patients directed to the temporary hospital at the Javits 
Convention Center?
    Mr. Cuomo. Doctor, several quick points.
    You'll remember, there were no tests at the time for 
residents.
    No. 2, the directive said, you will speak to the hospital 
and get discharge instructions. The nursing home could say, if 
this person is possibly positive, I can't take them. Period. It 
was totally in their discretion, because----
    Dr. Joyce. But had the Javits Convention Center been 
utilized for more nursing home patients to remain hospitalized 
rather than being sent back to nursing homes, in effect 
ultimately causing those deaths, could you have prevented not 
only additional nursing home patient deaths but the transfer of 
COVID to the healthcare professionals who ultimately were 
responsible for their care?
    Mr. Cuomo. Doctor, we had facilities----
    Dr. Joyce. Did you transfer patients? Did you authorize 
them to be transferred----
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes.
    Dr. Joyce [continuing]. To the Javits Convention Center?
    Mr. Cuomo. Any--we didn't even have to get there, because 
any nursing home that said, ``I can't take this person,'' we 
had alternative COVID hospital-only facilities. We had them all 
through the state.
    So, a nursing home could say, ``I can't take this person, 
they may have COVID, I can't quarantine them,'' and we had 
other facilities for those people. That's why it wasn't just 
total discretion by the nursing home----
    Dr. Joyce. It was lack of leadership from your office.
    During a crisis, the American people deserve leaders who 
are empathetic, utilize science, and are honest with them, who 
put aside personal and political concerns in order to make 
sound, evidence-based decisions.
    It is clear from your actions and from what this 
Subcommittee has uncovered and from what we've heard today from 
you that you have failed to provide that leadership. And 
because of your ill-guided decisions, some of our most 
vulnerable citizens, those individuals who were in nursing 
homes, died.
    Mr. Cuomo. Doctor----
    Dr. Joyce. And that is on your watch.
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes----
    Dr. Joyce. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield.
    Mr. Cuomo. The Federal Government handcuffed the states, 
and the President is where the buck stops. Right?
    Dr. Wenstrup. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Ms. Greene from Georgia for 5 minutes of 
questions.
    Ms. Greene. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Cuomo, I'd like to remind you that you're under oath.
    You've said a lot today. In your opening statement, you 
attacked President Trump and his response. I'd also like to 
remind you of statements that you've said.
    On April 13 of 2020, on ``The Howard Stern Show,'' you 
said, and I quote, ``Trump has delivered for New York. He 
has.'' And then you talked about Trump sending the ship, the 
Comfort ship.
    Mind you that the Comfort ship was sent to New York on 
March 30 of 2020. That was just a few days after you signed the 
directive to put COVID-19 patients into nursing homes on March 
25, which led to murdering people's parents, grandparents, and 
great-grandparents. Yes, murdering them.
    Today, you said--and I'll quote you. You said that high 
deaths in nursing homes is a conspiracy theory.
    Would you like to turn to the people here in this room 
today whose mothers died and their fathers died in these 
nursing homes and call them conspiracy theorists? Do you----
    Mr. Cuomo. I never said that.
    Ms. Greene [continuing]. Have the audacity to do that, Mr. 
Cuomo?
    Mr. Cuomo. I never said that, Congresswoman.
    Ms. Greene. You said that today. You're under----
    Mr. Cuomo. I never said that.
    Ms. Greene. You're under oath.
    Mr. Cuomo. I never said high deaths----
    Ms. Greene. There is video----
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Are a conspiracy theory.
    Ms. Greene. There's video of all of your words today.
    Mr. Cuomo. I never said that.
    Ms. Greene. You can be fact-checked. We'll do that when 
this is over.
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes.
    Ms. Greene. You also blamed staff for spreading COVID in 
nursing homes, not COVID patients. You blamed the staff.
    Mr. Cuomo. The staff----
    Ms. Greene. But yet on March 25--I didn't ask you a 
question. I'm talking to you.
    On March 25, you signed a directive to put COVID-19 
patients into nursing homes.
    On March 30, President Trump sent the Comfort ship, and you 
did not put COVID patients in the Comfort ship. You didn't send 
them to the Javits Medical Center that President Trump had 
built, which was a field hospital. You didn't send them there. 
You put them in nursing homes, which is murder.
    Mr. Cuomo. That's not----
    Ms. Greene. Now, that's murdering people. I'm saying that 
right now. And I'm also saying what a lot of people believe 
what your actions did.
    Let's also talk about some other things that you've done. 
Mr. Cuomo, let's talk about a tweet that you made, because 
there's an indictment out on a woman named Linda Sun--Linda 
Sun. And I'll read this indictment.
    It says, ``On April 4''--April 4--``Politician No. 1''--
Politician No. 1--``publicly thanked PRC Official No. 1, both 
in public remarks and in a post on Twitter''--that's this right 
here--``for helping arrange the donation, which was scheduled 
to arrive at JFK Airport in Queens, New York, that day.''
    So, Mr. Cuomo, you were thanking China, the PRC, while you 
had a woman named Linda Sun working for you, who has now been 
identified as a Chinese spy.
    Now, today, you have come before the American people and 
our committee, you have insulted many people, including people 
in this room and people watching this hearing who lost their 
loved ones because of your March 25 directive. And, at the same 
time, you were thanking the Chinese Government while you had a 
Chinese spy working for you.
    So, Mr. Cuomo, I've read a lot about you, including the 
fact that 13 women that work for you accused you of sexually 
inappropriate behavior--which, thanks to the Democrat DOJ who 
helped you out of that.
    But I'd like to say this, and I'll ask you: Are you either 
the dumbest tool of the Chinese Government or did you know for 
a fact that you were being used by the Chinese spy that was 
working for you?
    Mr. Cuomo. I've read about--a lot about you too, 
Congresswoman.
    I think this is a very serious matter, about the Linda Sun 
matter.
    Ms. Greene. It is serious. That's right.
    Mr. Cuomo. She was a junior member in my team. I wouldn't 
recognize her if she was in this room today. But I think it is 
a serious matter. I don't think this was just in New York. I 
think there is an infiltration of Chinese, maybe Russian, 
operatives----
    Ms. Greene. The Democrat Party's definitely had a problem 
with Chinese spies, yes, you are right.
    I want to remind you, you're under oath.
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes. And I think it's a serious issue, and I 
think the Federal Government and the state government should 
work together on it. State government doesn't really have the 
ability to do the international reconnaissance, but the Federal 
Government does. And I think they should work together to make 
sure they're doing the best they can to do the vetting.
    Dr. Wenstrup. The gentle-----
    Ms. Greene. Mr. Chairman, for the record, I'd like to enter 
the indictment for the record.
    Dr. Wenstrup. So ordered.
    Ms. Greene. Thank you.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize Dr. Jackson from Texas for 5 
minutes of questions.
    Dr. Jackson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding 
this important hearing today and the opportunity to hold former 
Governor Cuomo accountable for what I consider his egregious 
actions taken during the coronavirus pandemic which led to the 
unnecessary deaths of thousands of American citizens.
    Mr. Cuomo, what demographic or group of people are at the 
greatest risk of death from COVID?
    Mr. Cuomo. Immunocompromised, senior citizens, what we saw 
at Kirkland Hospital----
    Dr. Jackson. That's right.
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Seattle, Washington, as the first 
experience.
    Dr. Jackson. That's right. COVID in particular, it was the 
elderly and those with comorbidities--the exact population, 
unfortunately, that occupies every nursing home in this 
country.
    Despite that basic, basic medical reality, your 
Administration mandated that nursing homes accept COVID-
positive patients.
    And I've heard you say that they didn't mandate it, but 
they did. It says, no--it says here--this is the directive. I 
have it in my hand. It says, no resident shall be denied 
readmission or admission to the nursing home solely based on 
confirmed or suspected diagnosis of COVID-19.
    So, your assertion that the nursing home had the ability to 
turn these patients away is absolutely incorrect based on this. 
They did not have the ability to do that. They could not turn 
them away.
    By doing so--by doing this, you sentenced many of the 
residents there to death. Because these residents that were in 
the nursing home that didn't have COVID that were 
immunocompromised, that had comorbidities, that were elderly 
were destined to get COVID at that particular point when you're 
bringing known COVID-positive patients into the hospital.
    Even if you prohibited patients prior to admission, which 
would have been--you didn't allow them to test them. And that 
would've been key in deciding who was going to get quarantined 
and who wasn't going to get quarantined.
    It says in here that they can't be tested prior to 
admission. That's crazy. If you're admitting a patient and you 
can't test them, you don't know what to do with them when you 
get them. It ignores the fact that they were allowed to go 
there even if they were known to have COVID.
    But I submit to you that your claim that the nursing home 
staff brought this into the nursing home is completely false. 
You claim that the nursing home staff was responsible for the 
deaths, that they brought it into the facilities. Well, perhaps 
there weren't instances of that. Maybe there were. But I can 
promise you that if you were directing patients with known 
COVID to be admitted, you no longer need to be asking the 
question of how COVID got into the facility. You introduced it 
at that point. It does not matter if staff were bringing it in 
or not; if you're allowing and mandating that COVID-positive 
patients be admitted to the nursing home, that is how it's 
getting in the nursing home, that's how it's spreading, and 
that's how it's killing other residents.
    Anyone that gave you the advice on this directive should be 
held accountable right along beside you, anyone that 
participated in that. In particular, Dr. Howard Zucker and 
nurse Sally Dreslin, your DOH commissioner and deputy 
commissioner, should, in my opinion, have their medical license 
taken away and never have anything to do with the practice of 
medicine again based on their advice on this letter to you that 
the three of you are on the top of this letter having endorsed.
    Mr. Cuomo. Doctor, if I may, it said, you cannot solely 
refuse a person based on the diagnosis, which is the same thing 
the CMS/CDC says----
    Dr. Jackson. Who cares? If they're diagnosed with COVID, 
what does it matter?
    Mr. Cuomo. Well----
    Dr. Jackson. You're saying, well, maybe--you can't say it's 
because they have diabetes.
    Mr. Cuomo. No----
    Dr. Jackson. It has to be----
    Mr. Cuomo. You can say, ``I can't take care of them.'' ``I 
can't take care of them.'' A nursing home had total discretion. 
I didn't have----
    Dr. Jackson. So, if they had a patient that was coming from 
the hospital that was diagnosed as positive for COVID and they 
had no other medical issues and they were medically stable--
which, by the way, has nothing to do with whether they're 
infectious or not--then the nursing home could turn them away 
at that particular point?
    That's not what the letter says.
    Mr. Cuomo. That's what----
    Dr. Jackson. The letter says that they have to take them.
    Mr. Cuomo. I know--Doctor, the advisory does not supersede 
the law. The law is very clear. The Attorney General said the 
law was in place. A nursing home shall only accept people for 
whom they can provide adequate care, as determined by the 
nursing home.
    So, if the nursing home says, ``I can't quarantine this 
person who may have COVID,'' that's it. No other discussion.
    Dr. Jackson. No, but that's not what it says here. It 
says--it specifically says that if they have COVID and that's 
all they have, they can't use that as a reason to not admit 
them; they have to admit them. That's what this letter says.
    Mr. Cuomo. No. It says you can't solely not admit them 
because of COVID-19. But you can say, ``I can't take care of 
them. I don't have the precautions. I don't have the 
quarantine.''
    Dr. Jackson. What's the difference? If you can't take care 
of them, you can't admit them.
    Mr. Cuomo. That's right. And you don't admit them.
    Dr. Jackson. But this thing says you can't--you can't not 
admit them, you have to admit them. You're saying, no, but if 
we can't take care of them, you don't have to admit them. 
That's not what it says.
    Mr. Cuomo. CMS/CDC says, you can accept a COVID-positive 
person if you can take care of them.
    Dr. Jackson. That's not what this says.
    Mr. Cuomo. This says, you can't--you can't say no just 
because they have COVID-19, but you can say, I can't take care 
of them, I have no quarantine.
    Dr. Jackson. So, what if they say----
    Mr. Cuomo. It's totally up to the nursing home.
    Dr. Jackson [continuing]. I can't take care of them because 
they have COVID-19? They can't do that, according to this 
letter.
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes, they can----
    Dr. Jackson. No, they can't.
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Totally.
    Dr. Jackson. Look, and I agree with my colleague here, Ms. 
Greene, that you had a perfect opportunity to put many of these 
patients into a safe environment on the hospital ship that had 
a thousand beds that left New York after not being used and 
being used less than 190 times. They could've been there. You 
could've put them all there, and you could've saved a lot of 
lives----
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes, except----
    Dr. Jackson [continuing]. But you didn't.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I now recognize----
    Mr. Cuomo. Except, of course, the Comfort----
    Dr. Wenstrup. The gentleman's time has expired, and----
    Mr. Cuomo [continuing]. Wouldn't accept COVID-positive 
people.
    Dr. Wenstrup [continuing]. I now recognize Dr. McCormick 
from Georgia for 5 minutes of questions.
    Mr. Cuomo. Well, that's the fact.
    Dr. McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Appreciate this very 
important COVID hearing and your leadership on this topic.
    Mr. Cuomo, as you know, I'm an ER physician. Served during 
the pandemic, the entire time, seeing patients. I understand 
the science. I understand the efforts. I don't think anybody 
maliciously wanted to hurt patients or kill anybody. However, I 
think we need to learn from our mistakes and admit where we 
went wrong.
    You just now said ``solely based on the confirmation or 
suspected diagnosis of COVID-19.'' But the very next sentence 
reads: The nursing homes are prohibited from requiring a 
hospitalized resident who is determined medically stable to be 
tested.
    So, if you're not tested, how would you know if you, quote, 
``can't take care of them,'' if you don't know if they're 
positive or negative?
    Mr. Cuomo. Doctor, I understand exactly what you're saying 
from the reading of the advisory. But, again, it was just an 
advisory, and the law is in place. And what the advisory----
    Dr. McCormick. OK. I'm not a lawyer, sir, but what I know 
is, if I admit a patient to the hospital or to observation, I 
have to have a COVID test in order to know if I can take care 
of them and if I can quarantine them, if I can use PPE, if I'm 
going to spread it from one room to another, because I have to 
know what I'm dealing with.
    If you, as you say, prohibit testing of a patient, you do 
not know what you're dealing with, you do not know if you can 
take care of them. So, it's a dishonest argument to begin with. 
And that's not a question; that's a statement, sir.
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes.
    Dr. McCormick. So what I will say is this: When you say--
when you basically force people to take tests in order to 
travel or to go into restaurants or put a mask on or whatever, 
the young non-vulnerable population, but you don't allow a test 
on the most vulnerable population to go mix, where they are 
going to die--if we can't at least admit that was a mistake, if 
we can't--if we can't say in my book that I write about being 
the Governor of a state that had some questionable results on 
this COVID pandemic, then we're not going to learn from our 
lessons.
    And I've just got to--I've just got to wonder, where did 
you make--did you make any mistakes?
    Mr. Cuomo. Oh, I made plenty of mistakes.
    Dr. McCormick. You don't think this was a mistake?
    Mr. Cuomo. Looking back, the CMS, CDC, DOH will still 
defend this order----
    Dr. McCormick. Prohibiting COVID testing before placing 
them in a nursing home is going to be defended?
    Mr. Cuomo. Well, there were not enough tests. There were no 
tests at this time.
    Dr. McCormick. But--wait a minute. I understand that you 
actually had your family tested. Were those tests not available 
for the patients going back into COVID? Those very first tests 
that were tested on your family--young, healthy people, I 
assume--they weren't available for these people going into the 
highest-risk patients?
    Mr. Cuomo. Just the way virtually every Governor in this 
state--country----
    Dr. McCormick. So basically, what you're saying is, we 
didn't have enough tests, but we used them for my family 
instead of the people who went to the high-risk community.
    Mr. Cuomo. No----
    Dr. McCormick. And I just want to--I just want to basically 
back up what was just said.
    Mr. Cuomo. Doctor, that comment is better--you're better 
than that comment.
    People who I might be in contact with took a test so I 
didn't get COVID. Just like when I went to see President Trump 
and they gave me a COVID test before I was allowed to see 
President Trump or his aides to make sure I didn't infect them. 
That was the protocol.
    Dr. McCormick. Yes. I just find it a little hypocritical, 
when we don't have enough tests, and we're talking about the 
highest-risk population not being able to test, knowing that 
that's going to literally have an outcome, going to be the most 
succinct vector, going into the most vulnerable population, and 
we're wasting it on people that literally don't need to be 
tested, when we're--and we don't test the very people that are 
the highest-risk.
    And I would just like to say, we have family members right 
here, right now, that lost their relatives because of that 
decision, which I think was wrong. I think it's OK to admit 
that it was wrong. I think you should admit that it was wrong.
    And I think you would come off a lot better to those 
families if you'd just turn around and just apologize to those 
families and say, I'm sorry, it was a bad decision.
    Mr. Cuomo. Doctor, again, the law supersedes the advisory. 
The advisory is saying, you talk to the people in the hospital; 
if the hospital discharge people say, I think this person might 
have COVID, the nursing home says, I won't take the person.
    Dr. McCormick. You know, I'm just going to say, I'm sorry. 
I'll say it. I am sorry your families were exposed to COVID 
because people were put in the nursing homes that weren't 
tested because there weren't enough testing facilities or 
enough because we were testing young, healthy people instead of 
the most vulnerable population getting mixed. I am sorry.
    And, with that, I yield.
    Dr. Wenstrup. I would now like to yield to Ranking Member 
Ruiz for a closing statement if he would like one.
    Dr. Ruiz. When the novel coronavirus first reached our 
shores, it became immediately clear that our Nation's nursing 
homes and seniors would be devastated absent due care. Still, 
more than 170,000 nursing home residents have died since the 
arrival of the virus. Too many families have lost loved ones, 
and many families are still looking for answers. They deserve 
those answers.
    I understand that we may or may not be satisfied with those 
provided by Governor Cuomo. I acknowledge that questions remain 
about his Administration's transparency. In assessing those 
questions, we must objectively look at the facts.
    And when we ask ourselves a question of what we could have 
done better to protect nursing homes, we must not allow our 
collective memory of the early pandemic to be clouded by a rush 
to assign blame.
    We must remember that, across the country, public officials 
at every level of government were scrambling to make the right 
choices to protect people. At that time, the right choices were 
difficult to discern. Unfortunately, we could not look to the 
then-President Trump for an example of what was right.
    In the same way that I called for an objective look at the 
facts of Governor Cuomo's Administration, I urge my Republican 
colleagues to recognize that we must learn from the failures of 
the Trump Administration's pandemic response.
    We now know that the driving force behind COVID outbreaks 
and deaths in nursing homes were high rates of transmission in 
the communities surrounding those facilities.
    Dr. Vincent Mor from Brown University shared an article he 
published in Health Affairs on July 2024 with the Select 
Subcommittee titled, ``Four Years and More Than 200,000 Deaths 
Later: Lessons Learned from the COVID-19 Pandemic in U.S. 
Nursing Homes.''
    Dr. Mor and other experts found that the biggest 
determinants of nursing home residents' mortality due to COVID-
19 was whether the facility was located in an area with a high 
prevalence of the virus and the size of the facility, which was 
largely related to the number of staff members entering the 
facility every day since more staff means more exposure from 
the local community in which staff lives.
    Mr. Chairman, I ask that Dr. Mor's letter and attached 
article be entered into the record.
    Dr. Wenstrup. Without objection.
    Dr. Ruiz. We also know that the Trump Administration 
oversaw inexcusable shortages of PPE and delays in creating a 
testing protocol that exacerbated spread within communities and 
ultimately into nursing homes.
    The Biden-Harris Administration lifted our Nation out of 
the chaos of the previous Administration and has given us the 
opportunity to look back and learn in preparation for future 
pandemics.
    With that opportunity, I am proud to have announced earlier 
in today's hearing legislation that would strengthen infection 
control and prevention efforts in our nursing homes.
    And I became the Ranking Member of the Select Subcommittee 
with the intention to strengthen our Nation's preparedness for 
future pandemics and save future lives. There is work--more 
work to do, and if we work together, I believe that we can do 
it.
    With that, I yield back.
    Dr. Wenstrup. In closing, I would like to thank former 
Governor Cuomo for coming here today to testify.
    I have to say, I'm disappointed that before today's hearing 
even began, you chose to basically flout the rules of this 
committee and only provided your opening statement just before 
the start of this proceeding rather than the 24 hours in 
advance as required and as every other witness has done.
    Today's hearing was held to learn about New York's COVID-19 
pandemic response and its nursing home policies for the 
betterment of the future, for the betterment of the country. 
This whole committee has been dedicated to say, what was--what 
did we do right, what did we do wrong, how can we be more 
prepared for the next time.
    But it seems that you instead prepared for a trial--this 
isn't a trial--and declined to participate in discussion of 
what happened and how we could do better. That's been my goal, 
and you can see that through all the previous hearings that 
we've had.
    You chose to provide 300 pages basically of excuses just 
before you walked in the door and blamed the former President 
for your policy failures.
    I have not mentioned political party one time through this 
entire time with this committee. Not one time. We've talked 
about actions taken----
    Mr. Cuomo. Yes.
    Dr. Wenstrup [continuing]. But we haven't mentioned 
political party.
    It appears there is to be no soul-searching from you, 
Governor--I'm sorry--no self-critique of what could have been 
done better and improved upon. Just doubling down, blaming 
others.
    I said in my opening statement that there's things that I 
thought that didn't ring true. I've admitted to them. It's 
about looking at those things and how we can get better.
    But if your testimony is to be believed, we might have to 
just suspend reality. It would require the Governor of New York 
not to be responsible for his own state's health department and 
for the fault to lie instead with the former President for 
policies implemented by the Governor and contrary to Federal 
guidance the President released. It's a stunning story.
    I'm more concerned about what I heard today. This hearing 
was an opportunity to learn about our COVID-19 response and how 
we can improve future responses. I want you to understand that. 
That is our goal. There's no convictions here. This is about 
trying to be better in the future so that some of the people 
sitting right here today who lost loved ones in the nursing 
homes don't have to experience that again. That's what we're 
after.
    What was presented this afternoon was biased information 
and statements from a Governor who refused to admit he ever did 
anything wrong, especially as it relates to the COVID response.
    Honesty, clarity, and truth make all the difference. This 
is an opportunity to admit to the mistakes that we may have 
made, to make sure they don't happen again. You're not on trial 
here today.
    I thought the virus would dissipate in the summer. Why? 
Because most coronaviruses do. They dissipate, especially in 
the warmer weather. Experts said that may happen. Afterwards, 
they said, well, we were wrong. We admitted we were wrong. 
That's how it's supposed to work.
    But, see, former Governor, the buck is supposed to stop 
with you in your state, and I'm deeply skeptical of the 
abdication of responsibility onto others that we have witnessed 
not only here but publicly.
    No threats and no intimidation tactics will change the 
facts. We lost a lot of people in this country. It's not time 
to play politics.
    Your Department of Health released guidance on March 25, 
2020, that nursing homes must comply, that no resident shall be 
denied readmission or admission, and that nursing homes are 
prohibited from requiring residents to be tested prior to 
admission.
    You had people tested. You had people tested that were in a 
safe environment. You could've isolated yourself to make sure 
you don't get COVID. But, instead, you made the most vulnerable 
people in America, our elderly, take that risk that you 
yourself would not take to make sure that you got tested.
    You knew about all the directives. You chose to leave it in 
place, even after becoming aware of its existence. And it was 
only after pressure mounted and public scrutiny increased that 
you realized you needed to change course and cover your tracks. 
Much too late. The facts were in. Other people understood it, 
recognized it, made changes.
    You even admitted that the directive was only rescinded in 
response to public criticism and public relations. Wow. Wow.
    So, you come up with the July 6 report, you changed how you 
counted nursing home deaths, you made a deliberate decision to 
exclude certain nursing-home-related COVID-19 deaths from 
mortality rates, and you worked on getting your stories 
straight, literally. The responsibility was always somebody 
else's.
    When you're Governor, when you become a celebrity because 
of your advice on this matter, it becomes your responsibility. 
You were, after all, the ``Love Gov.''
    Mr. Cuomo's spokesperson basically claimed that our select 
report was cherry-picking testimony and conclusions not 
supported by evidence or reality. We've released all the 
transcripts, word for word. We're letting Americans see the 
facts. I can't say we're getting all the facts out of the New 
York government. We're letting Americans see the facts as we've 
gathered them.
    And no matter how much you and your team attempt to 
obfuscate and demean, it does not change the tragic reality of 
what happened in New York. We shouldn't need subpoenas to 
obtain information that already belongs to the public.
    I want to take a moment to apologize to the friends and 
family of the victims. Your loved ones will be remembered. And 
I'm sorry for what they've endured, especially if it was 
preventable. You are brave for continuing to fight. New Yorkers 
and America deserve better.
    Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days 
within which to submit materials and to submit additional 
written questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to 
the witnesses for their response.
    Dr. Wenstrup. If there's no further business, without 
objection, the Select Subcommittee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 4:34 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]