[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]








               THE CONSEQUENCES OF SOFT-ON-CRIME POLICIES

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

       SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE

                                 OF THE

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                     WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 11, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-97

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary










    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]











               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov 
                                   _______
                                   
                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
                 
56-839                    WASHINGTON : 2024 
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
               
                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

DARRELL ISSA, California             JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking 
MATT GAETZ, Florida                      Member
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  ZOE LOFGREN, California
TOM McCLINTOCK, California           STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin               HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky                  Georgia
CHIP ROY, Texas                      ADAM SCHIFF, California
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina           ERIC SWALWELL, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             TED LIEU, California
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  J. LUIS CORREA, California
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota        JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  LUCY McBATH, Georgia
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
KEVIN KILEY, California              CORI BUSH, Missouri
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             GLENN IVEY, Maryland
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               BECCA BALINT, Vermont
LAUREL LEE, Florida                  Vacancy
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina
MICHAEL A. RULLI, Ohio

                                 ------                                

                   SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME AND FEDERAL
                        GOVERNMENT SURVEILLANCE

                       ANDY BIGGS, Arizona, Chair

MATT GAETZ, Florida                  Vacancy, Ranking Member
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin               LUCY McBATH, Georgia
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 CORI BUSH, Missouri
KEVIN KILEY, California              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
LAUREL LEE, Florida                  HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina              Georgia

               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
         AARON HILLER, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff 
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
         
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                     Wednesday, September 11, 2024

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page

The Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the Subcommittee on Crime and 
  Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Arizona......     1
The Honorable Lucy McBath, a Member of the Subcommittee on Crime 
  and Federal Government Surveillance from the State of Georgia..     3
The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary 
  from the State of Ohio.........................................     5
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on 
  the Judiciary from the State of New York.......................     5

                               WITNESSES

Brian Ingram, Chief Executive Officer and Chef, Purpose 
  Restaurants
  Oral Testimony.................................................     7
  Prepared Testimony.............................................     9
Amanda Kiefer, Victim of Crime, San Francisco, California
  Oral Testimony.................................................    11
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    12
Jim Kessler, Executive Vice President for Policy, Third Way
  Oral Testimony.................................................    14
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    16
Jim Schultz, President, Minnesota Private Business Council
  Oral Testimony.................................................    18
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    20

          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

All materials submitted for the record by the Subcommittee on 
  Crime and Federal Government Surveillance are listed below.....    37

Materials submitted by Henry C. ``Hank'' Johnson, Jr., a Member 
  of the Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government 
  Surveillance from the State of Georgia, for the record
    An article entitled, ``Audio shows Trump praised Waltz in 
        2020 for response to unrest over George Floyd's murder,'' 
        Aug. 8, 2024, AP News
    A report entitled, ``Bail Reform and Public Safety: Evidence 
        from 33 Cities,'' Aug. 15, 2024, Brennan Center for 
        Justice, New York University School of Law
    A report entitled, ``Bail Reform and Public Safety: Evidence 
        from 33 Cities: Methodological Supplement,'' Sept. 11, 
        2024, Brennan Center for Justice, New York University 
        School of Law
    A letter to the Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee 
        on the Judiciary from the State of Ohio, and the 
        Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee 
        on the Judiciary from the State of New York, from Kara 
        Gotsch, Executive Director, Sentencing Project, Sept. 10, 
        2024
    A report entitled, ``Incarceration & Crime: A Weak 
        Relationship,'' Jun. 2024, The Sentencing Project
    An article entitled, ``FBI's latest data shows `historic' 
        drop in crime: Garland,'' Jun. 10, 2024, ABC News
    An article entitled, ``Joe Biden is correct that violent 
        crime is near a 50-year low,'' May 28, 2024, PolitiFact
Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Chair of the 
  Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance from 
  the State of Arizona, for the record
    An article entitled, ``Four Reasons We Should Worry About 
        Missing Crime Data,'' Jul. 13, 2024, The Marshall Project
    A report entitled, ``Blue City Murder Problem,'' Nov. 4, 
        2022, The Heritage Foundation
    An Opinion entitled ``Violent Crime Creating Dystopian Hell 
        Despite Biden's Claim America Is Safer,'' Sept. 6, 2024, 
        The Daily Caller

 
               THE CONSEQUENCES OF SOFT-ON-CRIME POLICIES

                              ----------                              


                     Wednesday, September 11, 2024

                        House of Representatives

       Subcommittee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in 
Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Andy Biggs 
[Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Biggs, Jordan, Gaetz, 
Tiffany, Nehls, Kiley, McBath, Nadler, and Johnson.
    Mr. Biggs. The Subcommittee will come to order. Without 
objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess at any 
time. Welcome, we welcome our witnesses, the public and 
members, and we appreciate everyone being here today on today's 
hearing on the Consequences of Soft-on-Crime Policies.
    I now recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Tiffany, 
to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance and following the Pledge 
of Allegiance, if you would remain standing for a moment of 
silence for the 9/11 victims.
    All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States 
of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one 
Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for 
all.
    [Moment of silence.]
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I will now recognize myself for an 
opening statement. Again, we welcome you to this hearing on the 
consequences on soft-on-crime policies. Over the course of this 
Congress, our oversight has included hearings in Democrat-run 
jurisdictions like Manhattan, Chicago, Washington, DC, and 
Philadelphia. Revealed in those hearings was the dangers of the 
left's agenda that provides leniency toward criminals.
    The witnesses at these hearings have told us the horrific 
and tragic stories of how soft-on-crime policies have hurt them 
and their families. Prosecutors who refuse to put criminals in 
jail routinely have downgraded felonies to misdemeanors and 
declined to prosecute entire categories of crimes that has 
resulted in increased criminality and violence.
    Meanwhile, leftist policymakers are passing bill reform 
laws that make it easier for criminals to remain on the streets 
and harder for police officers for protect their communities. 
This hearing is a continuation of that oversight. If Democrats 
are successful in their policy goals, the left-leaning criminal 
justice policies of Manhattan, Chicago, Washington, DC, 
Philadelphia, California, and Minnesota will become common 
throughout the country and will actually have impact on Federal 
imposition of criminal codes.
    I hope these hearings serve as a wake-up call to Americans 
to demand that their elected leadership abandon these policies 
that have made their communities less safe, and I hope it also 
reminds Congress of our requirement regarding Federal law.
    Violent crime in Minnesota remains significantly elevated 
due to the lingering effects of the Summer 2020 riots in 
addition to the prosecution's refusal to hold criminals 
accountable. Following the rise in violence that occurred 
during the aftermath of the death of George Floyd, Minnesota's 
Twin Cities, Minneapolis and St. Paul, faced unprecedented 
damage and destruction and crime remains concentrated in those 
cities today.
    During the Summer 2020, the riots of the Summer 2020, 1,500 
businesses in the Twin Cities were vandalized, looted, or 
damaged with at least 67 of those buildings destroyed by fire. 
Additionally, the Minneapolis City Council attempted to 
disband, but ultimately defunded the police department by $8 
million.
    Today, the metropolitan area still struggles with police 
recruitment and the aftermath of the riots where enforcements 
have had to cut back on proactive policing. Additionally, the 
two District Attorneys for the Twin Cities both practice and 
implement radical, soft-on-crime policies that enable dangerous 
criminals and exacerbate crime.
    We will hear from two witnesses from Minnesota today. Forty 
years ago, a near decade long crime wave started in California. 
In the eight-year period between 1985-1993, violent crime 
across all categories increased 66 percent from approximately 
202,000 to approximately 336,000 incidents per year. Rising 
violent crime in the State, including the brutal and brazen 
murder of Kimber Reynolds in 1992, and the rape and murder of 
12-year-old Polly Klaas, were repeat offenders with lengthy 
criminal histories mobilized Californians to demand and enact a 
three-strikes law.
    In March 1994, then Governor Pete Wilson, a Republican, 
signed into law the three-strikes and you are out criminal 
sentencing measure. The following November, California voters 
reaffirmed the measure when they voted overwhelmingly in favor 
of Proposition 184. That initiative was nearly identical to the 
legislation signed by Governor Wilson. The law increased the 
prison sentences of persons convicted of felonies who have been 
previously convicted of a violent or serious felony. As a 
result, violent crime in California between 1994, when the 
proposition was imposed, and 2010, showed a 49 percent decrease 
from approximately 319,000 to 164,000 incidents per year.
    Twenty years later, California decided to adopt a soft-on-
crime approach. In 2014, Californians approved Prop. 47, which 
in November 2014, California voters approved Prop. 47--I got 
that twice, sorry. In November 2014, California voters approved 
Prop. 47 which reclassified many felonies as misdemeanors. This 
includes many drug crimes and theft of items that are worth 
less than $950. Reclassifying these crimes from felonies to 
misdemeanors mean that many defendants are no longer 
susceptible to the three strikes laws passed in 1994.
    In 2016, the State approved Prop. 57 which reformed the 
parole system and allowed dangerous offenders to be eligible to 
be released from prison. After more than a decade of 
implementing these soft-on-crime policies, crime rates rose and 
continued to rise in California. In 2023, violence crime 
increased 15.1 percent from 2018 and increased 3.3 percent 
compared to 2022.
    Similarly, between 2018-2023, the aggravated assault rate 
increased a staggering 30.6 percent in the State. While the 
homicide rate declined by 15.8 percent in 2023 compared to 
2022, a substantial increase of 9.1 percent occurred between 
2018-2023. In other words, implying a decrease from all-time 
highs as they do, this demonstrates that there is still a 
significant problem and that there has been an overall growth 
in increase in homicide rates. Further, despite having some of 
the strictest gun control laws in the Nation, aggravated 
assaults with firearms in California increased 63 percent 
between 2018-2023. California's violent crime rate is 31 
percent higher than the United States' rate and is driven by 
the increase in aggravated assaults.
    California also suffers from elected soft-on-crime 
prosecutors. One of our witnesses today will tell us how that 
has impacted her life. We are seeing similar policies being 
enacted at the Federal level as well. One clear example of this 
is found in the recent actions of the U.S. Sentencing 
Commission. The Sentencing Commission has begun changing their 
sentencing guidelines to shorten the sentences of criminals, as 
well as their post-incarceration terms of supervision. These 
types of changes will lead to the same results as we have seen 
in California and Minnesota, a rise in crime and a decline in 
safety at the Federal level. These recent changes are no doubt 
only the beginning. The same folks who implemented the soft-on-
crime policies in California and Minnesota are now asking to 
run the Federal Government. Why, based on their records, will 
we believe they will be tough on crime and make our communities 
safer? Americans deserve to live in safe communities, and they 
deserve and want their elected officials to do everything they 
can to make sure that this happens.
    I am looking forward to the hearing. I appreciate our 
witnesses being here and I appreciate the Members who are here 
today, and I will yield back and now recognize Ms. McBath for 
her opening statement.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you, Chair, and thank you to our 
witnesses for being with us today. I appreciate it.
    Before we turn to the subject of today's hearing, I want to 
take a moment to acknowledge the four lives that we lost to gun 
violence at Apalachee High School in my home State of Georgia 
last week. According to the gun violence archive, this is just 
one of 389 mass shootings that have occurred so far this year. 
That figure does not include firearm suicides. As always, I 
continue to pray for the families of all those who have been 
lost to gun violence, for those injured at Apalachee High 
School and for the community of Winder, Georgia. This simply 
has to end.
    With the permission of the Chair, I would ask that we take 
just a brief moment of silence for the four lives lost and for 
their families.
    As you said, please join us in the respectful moment of 
silence for those losses.
    [Moment of silence.]
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you very much.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you. I am here today because of my own 
personal lived experience, after my son was violently killed in 
broad daylight by a man with a gun. I did everything in my 
power to make sure that my child's legacy would live on. I 
endured two trials so that justice was delivered because the 
man who took him from me and my family, he deserved to be held 
accountable for what he did. My son's killer is now serving a 
life sentence in prison. Since his conviction, I promised 
myself that I would work every single day to prevent any mother 
or any other father in this country or any other family from 
feeling the pain of losing a loved one or fearing that their 
child will not return home at the end of the day. I carry the 
pain of losing my child every single day here in Congress, just 
as I carry it with me here in this hearing today.
    Over the last four years, President Biden, Vice President 
Harris, and Congressional Democrats have acted time and time 
again to invest in law enforcement, prevent crime, and make 
sure that those who commit these crimes are held accountable. 
Together, we passed the American Rescue Plan, which included 
$350 billion in flexible aid to State and local governments. 
This bill included $15 billion for public safety and violence 
prevention. We also passed the bipartisan Safer Communities 
Act, the first major gun violence prevention legislation this 
country has seen in nearly 30 years. This legislation 
established enhanced background checks for buyers under 21 
years of age and these checks have already prevented 800 gun 
sales to those who were prohibited by law from purchasing or 
possessing firearms. The bipartisan Safer Communities Act also 
helps law enforcement hold gun traffickers accountable by 
establishing new crimes for gun trafficking and straw 
purchasing.
    Over 500 defendants have been charged under these new 
crimes including traffickers linked to cartels. These laws have 
been instrumental in making our communities safer and because 
of these efforts, this year we are on track to have the lowest 
level of crime this country has seen in 50 years. There 
definitely is more that we can do, and I welcome collaboration 
from my colleagues on the right, on any side of the aisle, to 
join me in our work to stop crime.
    Last Congress, House Democrats passed numerous bills that 
would further promote public safety, invest in law enforcement 
and keep guns out of the hands of people who simply should not 
have access to them. Unfortunately, these efforts were 
repeatedly opposed by all, but a few House Republicans and this 
Congress, the Republican majority, has refused to consider 
these bills and has even made efforts to remove money from the 
budget of law enforcement agencies.
    I urge my Republican colleagues to reconsider their 
opposition. I remain committed to working with anyone who will 
join me in our efforts to make our country a safer place for 
every American, no matter who you vote for. I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. I now recognize the Chair of the Full 
Committee, Mr. Jordan, for his opening statement.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I don't have an opening 
statement. I just want to thank you for this important hearing, 
and I look forward to hearing from our witnesses. Thank you all 
for being here, talking about this very important issue. With 
that, I would yield back to the Chair.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I now recognize the 
Ranking Member for the Full Committee, Mr. Nadler.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Chair, in our first 
week back from the August recess, this Subcommittee's first 
hearing is nothing more than a campaign event with Donald 
Trump. Rather than addressing policies that currently affect 
the American people, the majority's witnesses are here to talk 
about incidents from as far back as 2008. What happened to our 
two victims' witnesses is unacceptable. No person deserves to 
be a victim of crime, and I appreciate your being here to share 
your stories. The majority's attempt to use this hearing to 
prop up the Trump-Vance campaign is not even thinly veiled. 
There is no intent whatsoever to disguise the purpose of this 
hearing.
    Not only is the majority desperate to attack the surging 
popularity of Vice President Harris and Governor Walz, but they 
are well aware that if they want to hold a hearing about the 
current levels of crime in the U.S., that hearing would show 
that crime has been declining dramatically and steadily under 
the Biden-Harris Administration. The murder rate, in 
particular, is down sharply this year in cities across America, 
as it was during the past two years.
    Meanwhile, Red States continue to have murder rates that 
are higher than those of Blue States. Seven of the ten States 
with the highest murder rates are Red States and eight of the 
ten most dangerous cities in the U.S. are in Red States. As we 
hold this hearing about the alleged consequences so-called 
soft-on-crime policies, Republicans and their leader, Donald 
Trump, continue to call for pardons for the January 6th 
defendants who violently attempted to overthrow our Government 
on that bloody day three years ago. They continue to try to 
help Trump avoid accountability for his own serial criminal 
conduct in his numerous court cases by attacking the 
prosecutors, the judges, and the legal system itself.
    Last, Congress under Democratic control, we advanced 
important public safety legislation such as the VICTIM Act 
which would have provided critical funding for law enforcement 
to solve murders and other violent crimes. Republicans opposed 
it. Now, that they are in the majority, Republicans have called 
for abolishing the defunding the ATF and they have repeatedly 
attacked the FBI and the Department of Justice through endless 
conspiracy-focused hearings and closed-door investigations that 
border on harassment.
    It is Republicans who oppose sensible gun safety 
legislation that would curb the flow of illegal guns and stem 
the tide of gun violence in America. It has only been a week 
since the latest school shooting in which a teenager used an 
AR-15 to take the lives of two students and two teachers at a 
school in Apalachee, Georgia, a place where students, parents, 
and teachers have a right to expect that they will be 
protected.
    Republicans have made protection of deadly assault weapons 
a top priority this Congress over the protection of students. 
If they have the audacity to claim that it is Democrats who are 
soft on crime, Democrats are focused on actual legislation and 
policies that keep Americans safe. Democrats are keeping guns 
out of the wrong hands, addressing the root causes of violence, 
and investing in law enforcement. House Democrats have secured 
substantially more money for public safety investments in their 
districts, such as hiring police officers than House 
Republicans have secured, in some cases, as much as 15 times 
more. This disparity should tell us which party is more focused 
on public safety and which is soft one crime.
    The data also shows us that criminal justice reform 
policies work. In 2018, both parties were able to unify behind 
the First Step Act, a comprehensive sentencing reform package 
that gave Federal inmates the opportunity to earn time off 
their sentences for completing productive courses designed to 
prevent them from re-
offending. This legislation has been a resounding success, as 
the recidivism rate for inmates released early under the First 
Step Act is far lower than that of other inmates. In the cities 
in this country that have enacted bail reform by reducing or 
eliminating the use of cash bail systems, study after study has 
shown that the reforms have not led to an increase in crime.
    Of course, no crime prevention or reform strategy is 
perfect. There will always be individuals who slip through the 
cracks and continue to break the law. That is what happened 
with the individual who snatched Ms. Kiefer's purse in 2008 
when he was in the Back On Track program in San Francisco. It 
was when then-District Attorney Harris discovered that the 
program had mistakenly admitted undocumented immigrants who 
were not eligible for jobs in the United States, she quickly 
closed that loophole. What the majority won't tell you is that 
the person who took Ms. Kiefer's purse is the only undocumented 
person who was admitted into the program and failed to 
successfully complete it.
    Instead, my Republican colleagues paint all immigrants with 
the same broad brush as the ones who break the law, this week 
going so far as to make fake and preposterous crime that they 
claim immigrants are committing such as killing and eating 
pets. Not only is this sort of demonization of immigrants 
dangerous, but it flies in the face of the data which tells us 
that U.S.-born citizens are nearly twice as likely to be 
arrested for violent crimes as those who are in the country 
illegally. That is why we do not legislate by anecdote. While 
it is important to hear from crime victims and other impacted 
persons, we must focus our policymaking on current data and on 
verifiable trends.
    We must also focus on what we know works to combat crime. A 
combination of accountability and prevention that addresses not 
just punishment, but also the root causes of crime such as 
poverty, drug addiction, and structural inequalities. When and 
if my Republican colleagues are willing to have serious 
conversations about criminal justice policy, as we did when we 
passed the First Step Act in 2018, and the bipartisan Safer 
Communities Act last Congress, I will happily join them. This 
hearing is nothing more than a campaign ad. I do not endorse 
this message. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. Without objection, all other opening statements 
will be included in the record and today's witnesses will now 
be introduced. We appreciate all of you being here.
    We will begin with Mr. Brian Ingram over here. Mr. Ingram 
is a chef and owner of Purpose Restaurants based in St. Paul, 
Minnesota. He has over 30 years of experience in the restaurant 
industry. In addition to serving customers, Purpose Restaurants 
has focused on serving the community, having provided more than 
300,000 meals, two million pounds of food, and $225,000 in 
financial assistance to those in need since 2019. Thank you for 
being with us today, Mr. Ingram.
    Ms. Kiefer, Amanda Kiefer, Ms. Amanda Kiefer, is a former 
San Francisco resident and crime victim. In 2008, she was 
attacked by an illegal alien in San Francisco who had been 
arrested on drug charges but was released to a job program 
instead of being incarcerated.
    We have Mr. Jim Schultz, who is the President of the 
Minnesota Private Business Council, an organization that 
advocates for policies that promote job growth, business 
creation, entrepreneurship, and broad-based well-being for 
Minnesota's workers and their families. Thank you all, for 
being here.
    Mr. Jim Kessler is Executive Vice President for Policy and 
a Cofounder of Third Way, a nonprofit organization and think 
tank. He previously served as a House and Senate staffer to 
Senator Chuck Schumer.
    We welcome all our witnesses today and I thank you for 
appearing. We will begin by swearing you in. Would you please 
rise and raise your right hand?
    Do each of you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury 
that the testimony you are about to give is true and correct to 
the best of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help 
you God?
    Let the record please reflect the witnesses have all 
answered in the affirmative and you may be seated.
    Please know that your written testimony will be entered 
into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you 
summarize your testimony in five minutes, and you will see 
there is a timer in front of you and at some point, if you 
start rolling on past five too much, I will gently tap a 
reminder. If you go too far, then I will whack it pretty good 
and remind you that you need to wrap up. It is not to be rude. 
Nobody will be upset with you. We are just trying to keep this 
thing moving in an orderly fashion.
    So, we are going to begin now with you, Mr. Ingram, for 
your five minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF BRIAN INGRAM

    Mr. Ingram. Chair Biggs and the Members, today, first, we 
are just so grateful to be here and have this opportunity. I am 
not going to talk to you about data. I am going to talk to you 
about real-life experiences. Really my prayer for today is that 
of open hearts and open minds. I am passionate about our 
community. We have stepped up since 2019 to create a better 
community. We set out with the name of our restaurant, Purpose 
Restaurants, to have a safe, inclusive environment. We reached 
out to all different community members to understand what that 
looks like. We have made it our calling to be of service to our 
community.
    We say we want to share meals with people that don't look 
like us, that don't believe like us, because that is what is 
important. I moved to Minnesota in 2012 from New York. In those 
first 5-6 years, I had one burglary that happened. Since 2019 
and beyond, I know we are North of 12 burglaries. I cannot tell 
you how many incidents at one of our restaurants in downtown 
St. Paul that we have had overdoses, that we have had people on 
our patios overturning them. I can't tell you how many times we 
have seen violent acts taking place in our restaurants. I 
cannot tell you how many times I have heard from our District 
Attorney that we have reduced charges. We are letting them off. 
We reduced them to under $1,000, even though our expenses were 
far greater than that.
    The gentleman sitting behind me, Jeff, is my business 
partner. His son, Johnny, died of a fentanyl overdose above our 
restaurant. His drug dealer, we had all his information. We 
gave it to the police. That drug dealer was never arrested, and 
he is still on our streets today. These violent crimes and acts 
that happen in our restaurants and within our homes, St. Paul 
was my home from the time I moved there, except for a short 
time I was in Minneapolis. We moved after our car was recently 
stolen; house was broken into. My son's daycare, in St. Paul, 
Minnesota, recently had young kids stole the car again, again, 
I believe it happened several times and crashed it, but for the 
grace of God, into a tree that stopped them from going into the 
playground where three-year-olds are playing on our streets. 
This happens day in and day out in our community and nothing is 
being done about it.
    I can't tell you how many times I have listened to St. Paul 
police officers. This man has been arrested over 50 times, 
Brian. I am sorry. There is nothing we can do. He got back out, 
came back, burglarized us again, got back out within 24 hours I 
am told, and burglarized us again. So, we can talk about data. 
We can talk about how you can manipulate data. We can talk 
about political parties, none of that means anything to me. 
What matters to me is that my community is safe. What matters 
to me is when I get a call saying can you help pay for our 
funeral? My daughter was killed, Trinity, by random gunfire in 
St. Paul.
    What matters to me is that our streets and our community 
are taken care of and our first priority as citizens, as public 
services, it is to serve our community and that is what I am 
praying for that happens today. Hearts and minds are open. This 
is not a political issue. This is a human issue. We need to 
focus on human beings.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Ingram follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Ingram. Appreciate that. Now, Ms. 
Kiefer, we will recognize you for your five minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF AMANDA KIEFER

    Ms. Kiefer. Thanks for giving me an opportunity to speak 
about my experience. I was a victim of crime in San Francisco 
back in 2008. I was robbed and my skull was fractured in two 
places. I had about a dozen staples in the back of my head and 
nearly lost my hearing in my left ear. The guy who did it was a 
convicted felon, illegal immigrant that should have been in 
jail instead. As Congressman Nadler mentioned, he was enrolled 
in this job training program on the taxpayers' dollar for jobs 
he couldn't legally hold. That was crazy to find out 
afterwards.
    This type of program is happening throughout the country, 
too. That program was touted as a success, and it is hard to 
believe that there isn't more than one illegal involved in 
that.
    The journalists and politicians like to repeat the 
statistics that immigrants commit less crimes than Americans, 
even if not manipulated. I think I find that kind of 
irrelevant. If we are letting in any more criminals, that is 
one too many. We already have enough criminals in this country, 
and we really do little to keep them from committing more 
crimes.
    Certain politicians no longer hide their commitment to that 
Marxist principal that criminals are just victims of capitalism 
that not a job or handout will eliminate their tendency toward 
violent crime and jails and prisons have become a revolving 
door. No bail laws, later sentencings, and again, politics for 
leniency put violent people on the streets again to harm 
others. There is no fear of being caught or any reason to stop 
committing crimes.
    Our Vice President encouraged defunding police in the 
Summer 2020 and supporting a bail fund to let violent repeat 
offenders out of jail. Many of them went on to commit horrible 
crimes and that same Summer, her running mate opened his 
windows and marveled at the smell of his city being burned 
down.
    One of the most heart-wrenching part of hearing from 
victims' families is when they lose a loved one is that it 
could have been prevented. It is rarely a first-time offender. 
It is the backlog of sexual assault kits have been processed, 
if they had served time for their prior time, if they hadn't 
been let into our porous border, their loved one would still be 
with them and the gut punch, it is unfair, heart breaking, and 
Americans need to stop putting up with it. No one is taking 
accountability for failing to keep the American people safe.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Kiefer follows:]

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    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Ms. Kiefer.
    Mr. Kessler, I now recognize you for five minutes.

                    STATEMENT OF JIM KESSLER

    Mr. Kessler. Thank you, Chair Biggs, Ranking Member McBath, 
and the Members of the Committee, and also to the fellow 
panelists here.
    I also want to acknowledge Kylie Murdock, the Third Way 
Policy Advisor for her work on this issue and also Jeremy, our 
fellow, who's done great work on this issue.
    I've been obsessed with crime since the 1976 All-Star Game 
in Philadelphia when I was mugged. I've also had the privilege 
of working for a former Chair and Ranking Member of the Crime 
Subcommittee. Now, I get to testify, but I'm baffled by this 
topic. We're here to talk about soft-on-crime policies and have 
been offered up Minnesota Governor Tim Walz and California 
under Attorney General Kamala Harris as object lessons, yet 
both of these States are safer than the rest of the country, or 
most of the rest of the country.
    I did not say safe; I said safer.
    Forty years ago, I had a gun pressed to my forehead in 
downtown Boston. Thirty years ago, I had a gun leveled at my 
chest in rural Maine. No place in America is safe. Today the 
murder rate in Minnesota under Tim Walz is 12th lowest in the 
Nation, is less than half that of the national average. It is 
lower than the murder rates of all the 11 members of the States 
of the Subcommittee Members here.
    If America had the same murder rate as Minnesota, since the 
start of this century there would be 186,000 more Americans 
alive today. If Arizona had the same murder rate as Minnesota, 
since the start of the century there would be 5,600 more 
Arizonans alive. There would be 12,800 more Floridians, 16,600 
more Texans, 5,800 more South Carolinians.
    California under AG Kamala Harris had a murder rate also 
below the national average and a murder rate half that of Red 
States like Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama. If all of 
America had the same murder rate as California, from the State 
of this century there would be 62,000 more Americans alive.
    If you look at what has made Minnesota and California 
successful relative to the rest of the Nation, it is 
accountability, holding criminal accountable, and prevention, 
investing in efforts to give people a path away from crime. I 
want to touch briefly on four areas.
    Police funding. Minnesota ranks 10th in the Nation in 
police spending per capita. California is No. 1. Under Attorney 
General Harris convictions rates hit a 15-year high. Across the 
Nation per capita spending on police is 33 percent higher in 
Blue States than in Red States. If you're not funding police 
and convicting criminals, you're soft on crime.
    Poverty. Strong correlation between poverty rates and 
crime. If you're addressing poverty, you're soft on crime.
    Prevention programs. Most violent crimes are committed by 
people between the ages of 16-25. Many are mentally ill and on 
drugs. If you're not addressing substance abuse, mental health, 
idle kids, you're soft on crime.
    Guns. Eighty-six percent of all murders are by guns. If 
guns are only seen as a solution to the crime problem and not a 
cause, if there isn't a balance between gun rights and gun 
accountability, you're soft on crime.
    Walz and Harris have successful results on crime because 
they check the accountability and prevention boxes. Police 
funding under Walz is up and after the murder of George Floyd 
he called on investments in community policing.
    Police funding under Biden-Harris, both Federal law 
enforcement and local law enforcement, is also up. They each 
address poverty: School lunches, child tax credit, et cetera. 
They invested in substance abuse, mental health, after school 
programs, and summer jobs. Within the confines of the Second 
Amendment, they each passed gun safety laws.
    A word about illegal immigration: It was soft on crime to 
not pass the bipartisan border security bill. That's water 
under the bridge. Studies show undocumented immigrants commit 
fewer violent crimes than general population. I know are 
skeptical of that study and that doesn't help people who were 
victims, but I want to say something that is irrefutable:
    The three States that have by far the highest murder rates 
in America: Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama, have among the 
lowest immigrant populations of any State in the country. The 
bulk of America's crime problem comes from Americans, not 
migrants.
    In 2020, the last year of the Trump Administration, we had 
an unprecedented 30-percent spike in murders. By 2022, under 
Biden-Harris, crime and murder rates fell. It's continuing 
again in 2023-2024. For each year of this century, each and 
every year this century, Red States have had higher murder 
rates than Blue States.
    I truly believe that Republicans believe they are tough on 
crime because they talk tough on crime. The results should make 
people skeptical. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Kessler follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Kessler.
    Mr. Schultz, you are recognized for your five minutes.

                    STATEMENT OF JIM SCHULTZ

    Mr. Schultz. Chair, Ranking Member, and distinguished 
Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity to 
speak today.
    I'm here because the American people deserve to hear the 
unvarnished truth. Tim Walz' record on crime has left Minnesota 
in crisis. During his tenure the State has become a place where 
criminals run free, where law enforcement is assailed, and 
where families are without the safety and security they 
deserve.
    Here is the question we all must ask: If Tim Walz can't 
protect his own back yard, how could we possibly trust him to 
protect the entire Nation?
    In January 2021, my sister, a resident of Minneapolis, 
called me terrified. Her home had just been in the middle of a 
shootout involving a violent criminal. A police officer had to 
rush her out of her home, shielding her from stray bullets. Her 
home was left pockmarked with bullet holes, an experience far 
too many Minnesotans are now familiar with. Under Tim Walz the 
streets of Minneapolis went from a place to walk your dog to a 
place to dodge gunfire.
    Let's go back to the Summer 2020 when the George Floyd 
protests spiraled into riots. As Governor Tim Walz refused to 
deploy the National Guard for days, allowing violence to 
escalate unchecked. While flames engulfed his cities Walz 
twiddled his thumbs. By the time he finally acted Minneapolis 
suffered over $500 million in damage and his inaction inspired 
violence across the country. The riots were ultimately the 
second costliest in U.S. history. Those terrible days 
demonstrated that Tim Walz has at least mastered one skill: The 
art of standing idly by while his State spirals into chaos.
    Fast forward to today. Violent crime is Tim Walz' legacy. 
Homicides have surged by 75 percent and gunshot victims have 
doubled. Carjackings were once so rare in my State that they 
weren't separately tracked. Now, there are hundreds every year. 
This surge in crime is not just a pile of statistics. It's a 
harsh reality affecting everyday lives and livelihoods.
    As a leader of the Minnesota Private Business Council, I 
have seen the impact firsthand. Businesses are closing left and 
right due to break-ins, theft, and vandalism. Large parts of 
Minneapolis and St. Paul, after decades of successful growth 
and investment, have become ghost towns, substantially driven 
by violent crime.
    Once a powerhouse for generating companies like Target and 
Best Buy and General Mills, Minnesota, boasts the distinction 
of having the sixth slowest growing economy in the entire 
Nation, of course driven meaningfully by its rate of violent 
crime.
    Worst of all, Walz has seen all this and sat idly. Case in 
point, Walz did nothing about the Minnesota Freedom Fund. The 
fund, which was endorsed by Kamala Harris, raised $40 million 
in 2020 to bail out countless violent criminals including 
individuals charged with rape, assault, and attempted murder. 
One man, George Howard, who had been charged with domestic 
assault, murdered an innocent man named Luis Damian Martinez 
Ortiz just weeks after being bailed out. Thanks to Kamala 
Harris' favorite charity and Walz' tacit endorsement, violent 
offenders have received get-out-of-jail-free cards and 
Minnesotans have paid the price with their lives.
    I have just scratched the surface of Tim Walz' ignoble 
record. He has refused to stand up to radicals in the Democrat 
Party who pushed to defund the police. He has refused to stand 
up to hard-left prosecutors who prosecute police for simply 
doing their jobs and excuse the criminality of violent 
criminals. He has refused to protect our schools by forcing law 
enforcement out of them.
    As we consider the possibility of Tim Walz in the White 
House, we must ask ourselves do we want a Vice President whose 
legacy is defined by hesitation, cowardice, submission to 
radicals, and policies that have emboldened criminals, taken 
lives and scarred families, and broken entire communities? 
Absolutely not.
    Minnesotans deserve better than Tim Walz and so does 
America. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Schultz follows:]

    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Schultz.
    Now, I am going to go to--I recognize Mr. Tiffany, the 
gentleman from Wisconsin, for his five minutes of questioning.
    So, we are going to proceed with five minutes of 
questioning that will wrap up with a question you--if you are 
in the middle of giving an answer, don't worry. I will let you 
go on to finish the answer providing you are not filibustering. 
We will go ahead, give you some time to respond.
    Mr. Tiffany?
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Chair, this hearing is so timely.
    Mr. Schultz, a Minnesota Senate panel was investigating the 
2020 riots, and a Minneapolis police officer said they were 
prepared to defend the city but were instead instructed to 
stand down and let demonstrators take it. You think allowing 
the city to burn down while law enforcement watched was the 
right call?
    Mr. Schultz. It was not the right call. My sister actually 
during that time, she--this was prior to her incidents. She 
lived in Minneapolis at that time and there were people who 
were stashing cans of gas under porches and so forth for later 
use during the riots. The fact that--yes, please?
    Mr. Tiffany. Didn't Governor Walz have the ultimate 
authority to be able to deal with this issue by calling out the 
National Guard?
    Mr. Schultz. He did. He did. He sat on his hands for three 
days. It was the most--looking back on that time as a 
Minnesotan--I'm a fifth-generation Minnesotan. My roots go back 
very deep into the State. It was the most painful time in my 
State's history and in my memory. We had a Governor that 
watched everything happening, that watched his largest city, 
Minneapolis, descend into chaos, that watched other cities, 
including St. Paul and other cities, have incredible violence. 
He sat on his hands while Minneapolis burned. It was an 
absolute disgrace. It was something for which Minnesotan will 
be dealing--Minnesota will be dealing with for decades, and Tim 
Walz was ultimately responsible for that incredible failure.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Ingram, on the night the third precinct 
burned I received a message from a very good friend of mine who 
managed a chain of restaurants in the Twin Cities area. He sent 
a message to me at one point saying could you call anyone, 
including the President, to try to get this under control? What 
was going through your mind that night as this friend of mine--
his restaurant burned down?
    Mr. Ingram. What I can say is our experience as a 
restaurant owner--we had the same thing. One of our restaurants 
became a staging ground for folks that were going into 
communities to steal from them. Our restaurant, the Gnome, has 
a large parking lot. SUVs with no license plates, trailers with 
no license plates. Called our police and they said I 
unfortunately we don't have the resources; we can't protect it.
    This is 140-year-old firehouse that we had recently taken 
possession of. So, me and my family went and posted up in our 
parking lot to protect our restaurant. We were then given 
information that we could not protect our business, the 
direction was to flee. We can protect ourselves, but we cannot 
protect our business.
    So, I understand the heartache of what he had to have been 
going through. I also understand the heartache of Minnesotans 
over the death of George Floyd. What is inexcusable is that we 
didn't act to save our community and to step up to save our 
community.
    Mr. Tiffany. Is it any surprise to you--and perhaps you saw 
the news story that in one of the counties I represent in 
Western Wisconsin, St. Croix County, there was a Sheriff's 
Deputy that was shot as a result of soft-on-crime polices in 
the Twin Cities. A guy came out of the Twin Cities, repeat 
offender, came over, was drunk driving, got stopped, shot a 
Sheriff's Deputy in St. Croix County. Is it surprising at all 
that this happened?
    Mr. Ingram. My heart breaks for law enforcement in the Twin 
Cities. Unfortunately, out of our business in the last year-
and-a-half we've paid--we've contributed to--I believe we're 
over 60,000 to help pay for the funerals of these first 
responders. We've donated 100 percent of every dollar of our 
sales to help pay for these funerals.
    What I can tell you is the men and women that I speak to on 
a daily basis are heartbroken. The rhetoric that goes around 
about these men and women, on this day of all days, on 9/11--
why these heroes are not celebrated and why this continues to 
happen in our city is unfathomable.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Schultz, yes or no, are you surprised 
people are leaving Minnesota in droves at this point in part 
because of the increase in crime?
    Mr. Schultz. I hear that story every day around the State 
and hope people will stay, but I understand it.
    Mr. Tiffany. Are people in Western Wisconsin right to be 
concerned that this crime wave in the Twin Cities may end up 
over in their back door as suburbs of the Twin Cities?
    Mr. Schultz. Yes, absolutely.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Chair, I grew up in the shadow of the Twin 
Cities in Western Wisconsin. We were always proud to go to 
Minneapolis and St. Paul. I went to college at UW River Falls. 
Minneapolis and St. Paul were two of the finest cities in 
America. Just like San Francisco it is going downhill because 
of these soft-on-crime policies.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair recognizes the Ranking Member of the whole 
Committee, Mr. Nadler.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Biggs. Before that, Mr. Nadler, apparently Mr. Johnson 
has a--
    Mr. Johnson. I would ask unanimous consent to submit for 
the record this article entitled, quote, ``Audio shows Trump 
praised Waltz in 2020 for response to unrest over George 
Floyd's murder,'' in which, Trump is recorded saying, quote, 
``What they did in Minneapolis was incredible. They went in and 
dominated, and it happened immediately.''
    I would also ask for unanimous consent to enter into the 
record a research report from The Brennan Center for Justice 
entitled, ``Bail Reform and Public Safety Data From 33 States 
Across the Country.''
    Mr. Biggs. Thirty-three cities.
    Mr. Johnson. Also, ``Bail Reform and Public Safety: 
Evidence from 33 Cities: Methodological Supplement,'' and a 
letter from Kara Gotsch, Executive Director of the Sentencing 
Project, September 10, 2024.
    Mr. Biggs. Without objection.
    Mr. Johnson. Mr. Chair, your skills in reading are really 
good.
    Mr. Biggs. Reading over your shoulder?
    Yes. I was a lawyer. I needed to read upside-down.
    Mr. Johnson. Well, I had to do that myself from time to 
time.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes. All right. Now, Ranking Member Nadler, I 
yield five minutes to you.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Kessler, in June of this year you co-authored an 
opinion piece entitled, ``Crime is Way Down--Why Aren't 
Democrats Talking About It?'' Now, is as good a time as any, so 
let's talk about it.
    From your research what have you found with respect to 
murder rates in the United States?
    Mr. Kessler. Well, one of the things that we've found--and 
if you look at over the last 23 years, from 2000-2022, murder 
rates in Red States, the 25 Red States, which we define as the 
States that voted for Donald Trump, and the 25 Blue States that 
voted for Joe Biden--the murder rates in Red States have been 
higher than the murder rates in Blue States for every one of 
those 23 years. In 2022, they were 33 percent higher.
    Mr. Nadler. How about the trend in murder rates over 
those--
    Mr. Kessler. Murder rates spiked in 2020 under Donald 
Trump. Whether it's his fault or not, who knows? They peaked in 
2021. They've declined in 2022. They declined again in 2023 and 
they're declining again in 2024. The decline in 2023 was the 
largest one-year decline in murder rates in recorded history.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. What have you found with violent 
crime more broadly in the United States?
    Mr. Kessler. Violent crime is dropping in the United 
States. I would still say this is not a safe country. OK? We 
have 500 million guns in private hands. The stakes are very 
high, but violent crime is down.
    Mr. Nadler. What have you found about crime rates 
generally, not just violent crime?
    Mr. Kessler. Crime rates are declining in America. They 
peaked again in 2020. Definitely an explosion in crime in 2020. 
Crested in 2021 and dropping in 2022-2023. They continue to be 
dropping now. Again, I would still say we are not a safe 
country. This is still a country that's not safe enough, but 
it's safer than it was.
    Mr. Nadler. I think you may have answered this, how do 
these rates compare across Red States and Blue States or 
cities?
    Mr. Kessler. Yes, so look, in general crime rates are 
higher in Red States, not all Red States, but eight of the 
top--typically eight of the top 10 murder States are Red States 
and the very top are Mississippi, Louisiana, and Alabama. They 
have murder rates that are four times the murder rates of 
places like--certainly, Minnesota, probably twice--that's twice 
the murder rates of California, three times the murder rate of 
New York.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. Are your findings in all this 
research consistent with other authorities such as the FBI, the 
Major City Chiefs Association and the Council on Criminal 
Justice?
    Mr. Kessler. They are. I just want to say on murders we use 
the Center for Disease Control data because that is the most 
accurate on homicides since every death as a cause of death 
with a death certificate.
    Mr. Nadler. Can you explain why accountability and 
prevention are important to respond to crime, and more 
specifically to violent crime?
    Mr. Kessler. Look, I don't think you can solve crime doing 
just one thing. You're not going to incarcerate your way out of 
this problem; you're not going to police yourself out of this 
problem, although those are both important. You've got to 
prevent crimes before they happen. Most of the people who 
commit crimes are between the ages of 16-25. Making sure kids 
aren't idle. A lot of kids have emotional problems, mental 
health problems. There's substance abuse out there. Like you 
just have to have a whole-of-person, whole-of-community 
approach to crime.
    I would say what is happening in Red States, they really 
skimp on all the prevention side. There's an over-reliance on 
guns as being a solution to the crime problem and not how it 
can be part of the crime problem. They also tend to fund police 
a little bit less than Blue States.
    Mr. Nadler. In your article, you said that voters want a 
balanced approach of accountability and prevention. You went on 
to say that is what the Democrats are doing. They already 
walking a walk. Can you explain what you mean by that?
    Mr. Kessler. Yes. So, if you look, we did public opinion 
polling on crime. We've done it several times and found some 
very interesting things. Voters believe you just need a dual 
approach. Like they get it. They know that it's complicated. 
They see it in the neighborhoods. They're experienced in it. 
They see that Republicans are overly reliant on what they think 
is harsh-on-crime. Frankly, they think Democrats are overly 
reliant on prevention. Democrats actually do both, but that's 
what voters believe. They want to see both because they think 
both parts work.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. I have 13 seconds left; I yield 
back.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you. The Chair recognizes the Chair of 
the entire Committee, Mr. Jordan.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Ingram, who told you that you couldn't defend your 
property?
    Mr. Ingram. I believe it was our police chief who I was on 
the phone with that said--I believe it's a Minnesota statute, I 
believe is what I was told, that you can't protect your 
business with force. You can protect your home and your person, 
but not your business. We were told that we needed to flee.
    Chair Jordan. A State law that says you can't protect the 
property that you worked for, you invested in, your family put 
money into, that serves your community being fire-bombed, 
looted, and destroyed? You weren't allowed to protect it?
    Mr. Ingram. That is my understanding.
    Chair Jordan. You went to protect it. How were you going to 
protect it if, in fact, you were allowed to?
    Mr. Ingram. Yes, so we showed up at our place of business 
armed. We showed up to protect our business and that's--
    Chair Jordan. Well, think about this. Think about this: You 
were told by your government you couldn't protect your property 
and Mr. Kessler and Democrats want to take away your ability to 
protect yourself because they don't want you to have a gun.
    Mr. Ingram. Yes, I--
    Chair Jordan. You can't make this stuff up.
    Mr. Ingram. You cannot.
    Chair Jordan. This is where the left is today. Don't 
protect your business even though the bad guys are looting it 
and burning it down. By the way, we also want to take your guns 
so you can't protect yourself, your kids, your wife, your 
family, and people you care about. In America with the Second 
Amendment.
    Mr. Ingram. I will tell you an instance where we had--
    Chair Jordan. By the way, the people who told you that, you 
pay their salary.
    Mr. Ingram. We had an instance--
    Chair Jordan. That is such a deal the Democrats have for 
the American people.
    Mr. Ingram. Yes. We had an instance where we had somebody 
that was flipping tables over, spitting on members of our team. 
The police were told they could do nothing about it. I came 
down from one of our other restaurants, went hands on with the 
person, and was told that I would be the one that would go to 
jail.
    Chair Jordan. You don't blame the police because they are 
busting their tail trying to deal with all this chaos going on, 
but your Governor had the opportunity to call in the National 
Guard. The President of the United States told him he would do 
that if he wanted it, but he has to request it. He waited how 
long to do it?
    Mr. Ingram. Three days is my understanding.
    Chair Jordan. Three whole days. Did you lose one of your 
businesses, one of your restaurants?
    Mr. Ingram. We did not lose our business by the grace of 
God. Our businesses were all affected. We had gunshot holes in 
our restaurants.
    Chair Jordan. A lot of your friends and families, or people 
in your community did lose businesses, didn't they?
    Mr. Ingram. They did. They did.
    Chair Jordan. Yes, Mr. Tiffany talked about a friend of 
his--I think it was a Wendy's restaurant burnt to the ground.
    Mr. Ingram. It was truly heartbreaking what happened in 
Minnesota.
    Chair Jordan. Yes. By the way, Mr. Kessler and the 
Democrats want to take away your firearm. It is crazy. It is 
crazy. I yield to the Chair. I yield back to the Chair.
    Mr. Kessler. Mr. Chair, can I just respond for 10 seconds 
on that?
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    No, sir, you don't control the time. This is not an open 
forum. Sorry.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I will take that two minutes and 
ten seconds, because Mr. Ingram said--doesn't care about 
statistics because these are personal issues that deal with 
real human beings. We just heard a lot of statistical spouting 
that there are lies, damn lies, and there are statistics, 
right?
    So, let's consider this: Say you got Columbus, Ohio. What 
do they show? They show a drop in violent crime of 41 percent. 
That is what they show. Now, why do they show that? Because our 
officers and the citizens they serve are still battling crime 
daily, but it is recent changes in crime reporting that have 
done little more than create the illusion is all is well.
    If you recategorize violent crimes like aggravated assault 
and you say this is a misdemeanor now, you are going to really 
drive statistics down on violent crime. If you say we are not 
counted as a theft if it is not above 950 bucks, or in one of 
the towns in my State 2,000 bucks, you are going to drive your 
theft and burglary statistics down. They are going to go down. 
You are going to be saying this is the best time. We have 
really seen an improvement in law enforcement and if you are 
not counting everything, if you are not getting everything, the 
data.
    I am going to introduce into the record later on here, and 
I am going to talk about it in my next time, you are going to 
find that there are jurisdictions that have not received 
reporting requirements for six months at a time. They are not 
even there. Then, if you want to talk about Red States, take 
Phoenix out of Arizona and tell me what your murder rate is 
then. Because when that happens, it goes down precipitously.
    With that, I now recognize the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. 
Johnson, for his five minutes.
    [No response.]
    Mr. Biggs. Microphone, brother.
    Mr. Johnson. I am sorry. Thank you. Before the clock start 
running, I would like to ask unanimous consent to submit for 
the record this article from ABC News entitled, ``FBI's Latest 
Data Shows Historic Drop in Crime.'' I ask unanimous consent to 
submit this article from PolitiFact titled, ``Joe Biden is 
Correct That Violent Crime is Near a 50-Year Low.'' Notably 
that article and analysis are based on the FBI violent crime 
statistics from 2022, and we know violent crime has fallen even 
more since then.
    Mr. Biggs. Well, does it say that last part? Does that say 
that in the title of the article?
    Mr. Johnson. I believe it may.
    Mr. Biggs. I don't think it does, brother. No, but is that 
the name of the article? The answer is no. Without objection we 
will admit that, but that is not the name of the article, 
brother.
    Mr. Johnson. Well, thank you, sir. I am going to start 
shielding my work.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Biggs. I would like to play card with you, man.
    Mr. Johnson. Well, yes.
    Mr. Biggs. You probably show your cards.
    Mr. Johnson. That is right. You look at all my stuff.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair. This issue of crime is an important 
issue, but unfortunately it has been reduced to a political 
spectacle coming the day after a debate debacle by Donald 
Trump, followed by a very timely endorsement by Taylor Swift. 
So, I am really humbled to be here today at this particular 
time when the future President of the United States acquitted 
herself so well last time. A former prosecutor.
    Mr. Kessler, you talked about some statistics out of 
California that demonstrate the prowess of our Presidential 
nominee, Kamala Harris. Could you go over some of those? Before 
you do that though, I know you had some response that you were 
itching to get out. Please feel free to do that at this time.
    Mr. Kessler. Thank you, Congressman. I just want to say 
first for the record I believe in the Second Amendment right. I 
believe that it is an individual right. Those rights come with 
responsibilities; that is what the Heller decision was in 2005, 
and allow for reasonable restrictions. If we had reasonable 
restrictions, I think this country would be a safer place.
    Mr. Johnson. At this point we don't have reasonable 
restrictions on things like assault weapons.
    Mr. Kessler. I was working for Congressman Chuck Schumer 
when we passed the assault weapons ban 216 to 214 in 1994. It 
was one of the highlights of my career.
    Mr. Johnson. What were the impacts of crime during that 10-
year period when the assault weapons ban was in place? Violent 
crime.
    Mr. Kessler. So, we saw a huge drop between 1994-2004 in 
murders and violent crime because of the assault weapons ban, 
because of the Brady law, which passed in 1993, and I would 
also say because of the Federal bipartisan crime bill that put 
more cops on the street and had a lot more after school 
programs. Also, we had some tough sentencing in there, too, 
that not everybody liked, but it also had drug courts and other 
things to remove nonviolent criminals out of the court system 
and seek treatment. That types of whole-of-government, whole-
of-person, and whole-of-community approach seemed to work.
    Mr. Johnson. Well, that aspect of draconian sentences 
though has proved to not have been effective. So, this tough-
on-crime mentality of lock them up and throw away the key does 
not work, but things like poverty prevention, crime prevention 
policies, sexual abuse, mental health, and stringent gun laws--
those things have proven to be effective, have they not?
    Mr. Kessler. They have. If you think of the most violent 
criminals are between the ages of 16-25. Like if they have 
something to do, if they're dealing with their mental health 
issues, their sexual abuse issues, their poverty, and all those 
things--if you're doing those things and also working to stop 
the illegal market in firearms that are funneling guns to 
underage kids, those are things that you can do that can make a 
real difference.
    Mr. Johnson. So, the young man who took four lives last 
week at his high school in Georgia, he was not an immigrant, 
was he?
    Mr. Kessler. He was not. Most of the crimes in this country 
are committed by Americans.
    Mr. Johnson. This young man had been gifted a AR-15-style 
assault weapon by his parent for Christmas. He was only 14 
years old. A child. What does that say about the gun culture 
that exists in this country that is so promiscuous with regard 
to guns on the street and in the hands of everyone? How does 
that affect crime?
    Mr. Kessler. It is a fact of life, in the United States 
there are about 500 million guns in private hands, OK? That's a 
lot. If the owners of those guns aren't treating them with the 
utmost responsibility, including themselves and their family 
members, like there's going to be tragedies like this over and 
over and over again. We've seen it. We've seen it.
    Mr. Johnson. Thank you. I have got four seconds to yield 
back, and I will gladly do so.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Thanks, Mr. Johnson.
    The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Nehls, 
for his five minutes.
    Mr. Nehls. Thank you so very much. A lot of this data quite 
honestly is sickening. I was an old sheriff of Fort Bend 
County, Texas. Big, big county outside of the city of Houston. 
Familiar with reporting crime. We had this crime data we would 
send. It was called the UCR, the Uniform Crime Report. We would 
send it. The FBI took it all.
    Now, the FBI has changed it. Now, it is called NIBRS. Much 
more difficult. Many, many large cities--it is so confusing 
many, many large cities couldn't even comply with NIBRS to 
submit this crime data. Many agencies have failed to reach 
compliance. So, the idea that crime is down is all malarkey.
    Chicago, LA, and New York City failed to even report in 
2021, because it is just too damn complicated. Matter of fact, 
what is interesting about the FBI, in 2023 now, city of 
Baltimore, they claim they wouldn't know how many murders they 
have, right? They said 262 murders in Baltimore 2023. The FBI 
reports, 225-225. Now, why would they do that?
    So, Mr. Kessler, bad information. You got a lot of bad 
information.
    I want to say this: The 10--talking about dangerous cities 
in America. You look at these cities:

St. Louis: Democrat-run, a long time Democrat-run.
Detroit: Democrat-run, long time.
New Orleans: Scary, don't go without a weapon, Democrat-run.
Memphis: Go ahead, go ahead with me there, Democrat-run.

    People leaving, everybody wants to come to the great State 
of Texas and Florida, Democrat-run.

Milwaukee. If you want to say it with me, you can. Democrat-
    run.
Minneapolis: Democrat-run.

    I feel for you, sir. I feel for you up there in that great 
State. You not only have a very liberal socialist as the 
Governor up there. You also have a very liberal State House and 
State Senate.

Austin, Texas: Democrat-run.
San Fransicko: Democrat-run.
Denver: Democrat-run.

    Many of these individuals have the district attorneys that 
are supposed to prosecute these violent offenders and keep them 
locked up. George Soros funded DAs. Letting them all out.
    I have got a graph here that shows incarceration rates in 
Minnesota, Minneapolis. Incarceration rates are down while 
crime is up. Crime is up. Violent crime is up in Minneapolis. 
It is up in Minnesota. In 2021, it reached its peak. You got a 
little bit--it is going down a little bit, but it is still 
very, very high. Because they don't want to put anybody in 
jail, don't want to offend anybody. Don't want to offend 
anybody. Let's not put the victims first. Let's put the 
suspects first. I tell you something: The American people are 
seeing it.
    We had a hearing yesterday, Chair, did we not, with 
families that lost loved ones due to the Kamala Harris border 
crisis, border czar she is. I am not the border czar. I am the 
border czar. I am not the border czar. Last night we saw 
nothing but a bunch of lies, misinformation in that debate.
    I think the American people can see through this. They see 
what is happening to our country with the invasion at the 
Southern border. They can see it. I tell you they can see it in 
Minnesota, they can see it in Wisconsin, they can see it in 
every State now, folks, is a border State. The criminals are 
coming through. Poor Colorado. That violent gang out of 
Venezuela. They are there. They are eating ducks or chickens, 
cats or whatever there in Indianapolis.
    The problem is this administration, Kamala Harris doesn't 
put the American people first. Doesn't put individuals like 
you, sir, and your hard-working business, your family--they 
don't put them first. They put you last. They put you last. 
They put the American people last.
    When you have to sit in these hearings yesterday and listen 
to the pain of these mothers that have lost their loved ones to 
brutal violence from these animals that this administrative has 
let into this country--shame on them. Don't worry, I will say 
this, miss, help is on its way. The greatest President in my 
lifetime is coming back on November 5th, because the American 
people can see through this charade with this dangerous, 
dangerous administration. I yield back, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields.
    The Chair recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. 
Kiley, for five minutes.
    Mr. Kiley. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Just a couple weeks ago the Governor of California Gavin 
Newsom referred to California's crime policy as a national 
model. Vice President Harris, of course herself from 
California, has said that California is a, quote, ``role model 
for what can be done around the country.'' So, I think that 
this hearing, looking specifically at California's crime 
situation, is a timely opportunity to evaluate that thesis as 
to what kind of a national model California provides when it 
comes to its approach to crime.
    That approach consists of three main elements:
    First, a systematic effort to defund police departments in 
cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco, and Oakland.
    Second, a systematic effort to not enforce criminal laws 
with the election of so-called progressive prosecutors like 
George Gascon, Kamala Harris, and Chesa Boudin in San 
Francisco; Gascon again in LA; Pamela Price in Oakland.
    Third, is just taking a hatchet to the criminal code with 
laws like Prop. 47, for example, which passed in 2014 and 
effectively legalized retail theft spawning this crisis of 
retail theft and smash-and-grabs across California.
    Prop. 47 also effectively legalized drug possession even 
for Class A drugs, even for fentanyl. What that has done has 
made it impossible for us to get folks who have drug addiction 
the help that they need so that you have them just living on 
our streets and tragically all too often dying on our streets 
in these open-air drug markets that you have to walk through, 
wade through in many of our major cities.
    Two years after Prop. 47 came Prop. 57, which made tens of 
thousands of very serious heinous criminals eligible for early 
release.
    Now, of course, California voters would never have passed 
such a thing if it were properly described to them, but 
unfortunately the initiative was described on the ballot as 
only applying to nonviolent offenders. It was described as such 
by the then-attorney general, Kamala Harris. In reality, it 
made criminals eligible for early release who had committed 
crimes like rape, human trafficking with minors, assault with a 
deadly weapon, and drive-by shootings. All this was described 
as nonviolent activity by the Attorney General.
    So, with the passage of these measures: Prop. 47, Prop. 57, 
the defunding of the police, the so-called progressive 
prosecutor movement, we have seen crime go up in California. 
The results speak for themselves. Just over the last five years 
violent crime has gone up 15.1 percent; aggravated assault, 
30.6; homicide, 9.1 percent; aggravated assault with a firearm, 
62.9 percent. The violent crime rate in California is 31 
percent higher than the rest of the country.
    Those statistics don't even tell the full story. If you 
look at San Francisco, for example, businesses are closing left 
and right. In just a short span of time in the last year you 
had the closure of Nordstrom, Whole Foods, T-Mobile, 
Anthropologie, and Saks. The iconic toy store that this movie 
``Toy Story'' was based had to close. In-N-Out had to close its 
first restaurant ever citing the danger to customers and to 
their workers.
    If you just walk into any--many of our major cities, you 
have to--if you want to go to the grocery store, you have dodge 
needles, you have to wade through encampments. When you go into 
the store, if you want to buy basic goods like frozen foods, or 
shampoo or conditioner, you have to go get a clerk to open up 
the cabinet to get it for you because everything is under lock 
and key.
    In Los Angeles the police have specifically told people, 
warn people that you shouldn't go outside when you are wearing 
jewelry. This is the reality of life in many parts of 
California following this dangerous decriminalization 
experiment.
    The good news is this, that while Gavin Newsom says this is 
a national model, while Kamala Harris says it is a role model 
for the rest of the country, the people of California are 
rendering a very different verdict. Those cities that defunded 
their police have now refunded their police. Several of these 
so-called progressive prosecutors have been recalled or are 
currently being recalled or being removed from office.
    There is a bipartisan initiative right now to largely 
reverse Prop. 47 and end the Prop. 47 experiment in California. 
It has received broad bipartisan support. I was just on a 
bipartisan panel supporting it with our colleague Ami Bera. The 
mayors of San Jose, San Diego, and San Francisco are supporting 
this initiative even though the Governor of California Gavin 
Newsom has continued to stand by Prop. 47 and fought our reform 
effort every step of the way.
    So, Mr. Chair, while there are some who will point to 
California's crime policies as a national model, I would 
encourage folks across the country to listen to the people of 
California themselves who are saying very clearly this is not a 
model for the Nation; it is a warning to the Nation. I believe.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Gaetz.
    Mr. Gaetz. Yes, I have questions for Mr. Ingram, but that 
was a remarkable presentation from Congressman Kiley about how 
things have gone in California. When I heard that they had to 
close an In-N-Out and a Whole Foods, that is a broad swatch of 
the constituency in California when you get both of those 
establishments having to close. It is remarkable.
    Mr. Ingram, so we have this dynamic now that Mr. Kiley just 
laid out perfectly where you are seeing more and more crimes 
not really being counted as crimes and you are seeing more and 
more criminals just being let out and not really deemed part of 
the criminal justice system for any meaningful period of time.
    So, I want you to bring like the average American who has 
heard the presentation: All the crime rates are down, we are 
safer now under these policies that don't really punish people 
for things like theft--but what does that actually mean on the 
streets of America? What would you say to an American that 
encountered that information, but it didn't jive with how they 
felt?
    Mr. Ingram. What I would equate it to--we see it every day 
in our city where we sit right now. It's mind-boggling on how 
we talk about crime. For us--again, somebody that has been in 
Minnesota since 2012, the five-years we had one burglary. Now, 
we've had
12-13.
    Every time I get a thing from our District Attorney, it 
says we've reduced the charges to under $1,000 even though it 
may have cost me 20,000 to repair the building. A safe they 
rolled down three flights of stairs, ripped out walls, and 
ripped out staircases. We reduced it down to under $1,000 and 
the person is back on the streets. He robs us again and we 
reduce it down. He robs us again and we reduce it down. To me 
that is the madness of it.
    Recently, our breakfast restaurant called Hope--somebody 
broke into it, busted out the garage door, and went into the 
space. Then, we get a letter saying we've reduced the crime 
down to under $1,000 where the glass on the garage door costs 
more than that. To me it's when we have these--again, this 
isn't a political thing for me. It's real life. This is real 
humans. These are real businesses. We're having businesses 
close every single day.
    We're having people murdered. We have a drug dealer that 
provided laced drugs with fentanyl to my partner's son. He 
died. He texted him something is wrong. He said you'll be fine. 
We had his address. That drug dealer to my knowledge is still 
on the streets to this day.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Ingram, Vice President Harris filled out a 
questionnaire for the ACLU when she was running for President 
back in 2019, and she advocated for the position of 
decriminalizing fentanyl making it where that wasn't something 
where people would interface with the criminal justice system, 
but would have a different path. Do you think that would make 
your streets safer?
    Mr. Ingram. I don't believe that will make our streets 
safer. You must be held accountable for your actions. Words 
don't really matter. Actions matter. We can all say--I can sit, 
say whatever I want to say. Any of us can say. Actions are what 
matter. What is happening every single day is what matters. 
That's really what we need is commonsense to take over. If 
you've been arrested 50 times in three years you shouldn't be 
out to do it again.
    Mr. Gaetz. Here is what I don't get, Mr. Ingram: I have 
never been a prosecutor, but why would you want to become a 
prosecutor to then not prosecute the criminals? That would be 
like opening restaurants and not wanting to make food. That 
would be like opening a bar and not wanting to make drinks.
    Like do you ever get to talk to some of these folks in your 
community and say, hey, I just sort of assumed that me being 
the restaurateur I would run a restaurant, and you being the 
prosecutors, you would prosecute the criminals? Is that too 
much to ask?
    Mr. Ingram. Yes, unfortunately, I just get to speak to our 
first responders that show up onsite and I see the look in 
their eyes, how defeated they are because they've arrested--
they know them by name. We show them the picture and they tell 
us their name. They know where they live. They're so 
demoralized and defeated it's--
    Mr. Gaetz. Well, we don't live like this in Florida. You 
don't have to live like this. Florida is ready when you are, as 
a matter of fact. I do worry that these bad ideas that we have 
seen emerge in some of our Democrat-run cities could spread to 
other parts of the country.
    In our last few seconds what would be your warning to a 
community thinking about adopting these policies that reduce 
theft thresholds and allow this type of conduct?
    Mr. Ingram. My biggest thing, I would say love people. Love 
is hard. My dad had to discipline me because I made mistakes. 
Discipline sucks, but it has to happen. Love people. That 
includes discipline.
    Mr. Gaetz. That is terrific advice. I very much appreciate 
you being here. I see my time is expired. I yield back.
    Mr. Biggs. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize myself for five minutes.
    I will turn to you, Ms. Kiefer. What changes would you like 
to see to ensure that victims are better protected, and 
offenders are held accountable? You have a microphone button 
there.
    Ms. Kiefer. Yes. Prosecutors need to prosecute. People need 
to be held accountable. Gun laws need to actually be enforced. 
Instead of taking away guns, why don't we enforce the laws on 
the books?
    Mr. Biggs. So, you think that law enforcement--by enforcing 
laws you would get deterrence and people are less likely to 
commit the crimes?
    [No response.]
    Mr. Biggs. Interesting concept.
    Ms. Kiefer. Crazy.
    Mr. Biggs. We were just in El Salvador. We saw that. They 
arrested 70,000 gang members. Now, they have the safest country 
in the Western Hemisphere. It is an interesting thing down 
there in El Salvador when they chose to start enforcing the 
law.
    Mr. Ingram, I have a question for you: When you were 
talking about the first--the police come out. They know who it 
is. They make the arrests. Now, the prosecutor reduces the 
charges. Now, in Arizona we have something called the Victim's 
Bill of Rights. If that is going to happen typically, there is 
going to be consultation with the victim and say this is why or 
some kind of information. Did you get that from the prosecutor 
there?
    Mr. Ingram. I did not. I did get a letter from an advocate 
saying this is happening. We responded and said we're not in 
agreement. Then we would get a letter in the mail a month or 
two later that's saying here's what happened.
    Mr. Biggs. So, Mr. Ingram, in Arizona we also would say we 
are going to have this individual plead. You are the victim. If 
you wish to make a statement or submit something to the court--
and you could come in for the sentencing. Sentencing is going 
to be XYZ date. None of that had happened for you?
    Mr. Ingram. That's never happened to me.
    Mr. Biggs. Did that happen for you, Ms. Kiefer, in your 
case?
    Ms. Kiefer. To testify against--
    Mr. Biggs. Yes, you testified?
    [No response.]
    Mr. Biggs. You actually testified? OK. Mr. Schultz, what 
changes to your business--do you have a business in--
    Mr. Schultz. I do not, no.
    Mr. Biggs. OK.
    Mr. Schultz. No.
    Mr. Biggs. So, what is the crime rates doing to the 
business community in Minnesota?
    Mr. Schultz. So, there's a lot of ways to cut that, but 
from a statistical perspective Minnesota is at its slowest 
growing period in its history. We're growing incredibly slowly. 
We're losing people, we're losing businesses to other States. 
One of the causes of that is clearly the violent crime.
    Mr. Biggs. It is an amazing thing to me. I don't know why 
we got the music going. That is wild.
    Here, I am going to submit for the record an article 
called, ``4 Reasons We Should Worry About Missing Crime Data.''
    Without objection.
    So, here we go. The 2022 crime data. How many reported? Mr. 
Nehls talked about it, but I want to put in an article about 
this. Agency's that participated and actually reported it: 
8,358. That was 44 percent of agencies. How many participated 
partially? Like you said, ``it is so complex.'' Some 
participated for part of it; not all of it. Another 4,400, or 
about 24 percent. How many agencies didn't participate at all 
including some of the Nation's largest cities? 6,097. Thirty-
two percent of all that didn't even participate. So, when you 
give us statistical data based on, as my colleague was 
mentioning the FBI statistics, they don't even get all the 
statistics.
    So, I know and I respect Mr. Ingram does as well. We need 
to take the people part of it, too. As policymakers we also 
look at the data, and the data is woefully inaccurate because 
it is woefully incomplete. That is the reality of it.
    Then, how much data did you--is analyzed to say this 
number, like in our case, how many cases were dropped down and 
busted down? I was a prosecutor and a defense attorney. I will 
tell you that 95 percent of cases plead out. Ninety-five 
percent of cases are busted down from the original charge. So, 
we don't get what is being charged. We don't know how they are 
breaking them down.
    A cop is shot in the United States every 22 hours this 
year. This year. Every 22 hours a police officer is shot. I 
submit that for the record without objection.
    Mr. Biggs. I submit a document called the ``Blue City 
Murder Problem,'' which gets as the point I was trying to make. 
What is Arizona's homicide rate when you take Phoenix out of 
it? Not just all of Maricopa County, which has six million 
people in it. When you take out Phoenix, the rest of Maricopa 
County is pretty darn safe. That is the reality. That is the 
Blue State problem again that Mr. Nehls brought up.
    Then I am going to submit also for the record in my last 
act here this morning--I am looking for the title of it. Here 
we go. ``Violent Crime Creating Dystopian Hell Despite Biden's 
Claim America is Safer.''
    Without objection, that will come in.
    We have no more Members to ask questions and you have 
been--all of you participated and we appreciate all of your 
testimony today. Thank you for being here.
    With that, we are adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:31 a.m, the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the 
Sub-
committee on Crime and Federal Government Surveillance can
be found at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent 
.aspx?EventID=117634.

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