[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]






                                 ______

 
                         IRAN'S PROXY IN YEMEN:
                      THE HOUTHI THREAT TO MIDDLE
                    EAST STABILITY, GLOBAL SHIPPING,
                        AND U.S. SERVICE MEMBERS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

    SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE MIDDLE EAST, NORTH AFRICA, AND CENTRAL ASIA

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                           February 14, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-85

                               __________

        Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs 
        
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                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                   MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Chairman

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey     GREGORY MEEKS, New York, Ranking 
JOE WILSON, South Carolina               Member
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania            BRAD SHERMAN, California
DARRELL ISSA, California             GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
ANN WAGNER, Missouri                 WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
BRIAN MAST, Florida                  AMI BERA, California
KEN BUCK, Colorado                   JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee              DINA TITUS, Nevada
MARK E. GREEN, Tennessee             TED LIEU, California
ANDY BARR, Kentucky                  SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
RONNY JACKSON, Texas                 DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
YOUNG KIM, California                COLIN ALLRED, Texas
MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida        ANDY KIM, New Jersey
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan              SARA JACOBS, California
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
    American Samoa                   SHEILA CHERFILUS-McCORMICK, 
FRENCH HILL, Arkansa                       Florida
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                GREG STANTON, Arizona
JIM BAIRD, Indiana                   MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida               JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
THOMAS KEAN, JR., New Jersey         JONATHAN JACKSON, Illinois
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York             SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
CORY MILLS, Florida                  JIM COSTA, California
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia              JASON CROW, Colorado
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               GABE AMO, Rhode Island
JOHN JAMES, Michigan                 BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas


                                     
                Brendan Shields, Majority Staff Director

                Sophia Lafargue, Minority Staff Director
                                 ------                                

  The Subcommittee on the Middle East, North Africa, and Central Asia

                           JOE WILSON, Chair
BRIAN MAST, Florida                  DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota, Ranking 
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee                  Member
RONNY JACKSON, Texas
JIM BAIRD, Indiana
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia

                                     BRAD SHERMAN, California
                                     GERALD CONNOLLY, Virginia
                                     KATHY MANNING, North Carolina

              Gabriella Zach, Subcommittee Staff Director
              
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                               WITNESSES

Ledeen, Simone A., Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense 
  for the Middle East............................................     9
Pollack, Kenneth, PhD, Former CIA Analyst and National Security 
  Council Director for the Persian Gulf..........................    19
Alterman, Jon, PhD, Senior Vice President, Zbigniew Brzezinski 
  Chair in Global Security and Geostrategy, and Director, Middle 
  East Program, Center for Strategic and International Studies...    30

                                APPENDIX

Hearing Notice...................................................    51
Hearing Minutes..................................................    53
Hearing Attendance...............................................    54

            RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Responses to questions submitted for the record..................    55


                   IRAN'S PROXY IN YEMEN: THE HOUTHI



                    THREAT TO MIDDLE EAST STABILITY,



               GLOBAL SHIPPING, AND U.S. SERVICE MEMBERS

                      Wednesday, February 14, 2024

                          House of Representatives,
             Subcommittee on the Middle East, North
                           Africa and Central Asia,
                      Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:03 p.m., in 
room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Joe Wilson 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Mr. Wilson. Ladies and gentlemen, and guests, we're so 
grateful to have so many of you here, all of you here. The 
Subcommittee on Middle East, North Africa and Central Asia will 
come to order.
    The purpose of this hearing is to address the Iran-backed 
Houthis threat to Yemen, the Middle East, and the United States 
national security interest, including through their many 
significant attacks on international shipping in the Red Sea 
and the Gulf of Aden since October 2023.
    We will discuss the threat posed by the Houthis and the 
Biden Administration's response to the dramatic uptick in 
Iran's malign activity across the region.
    I now ask consent unanimously, the gentleman from North 
Carolina, Dr. Murphy, be allowed to sit on the dais and 
participate following all members in today's hearing. Without 
objection, so ordered.
    I also ask consent that the statement for the record by 
Behnam Ben Taleblu and related report be entered into the 
record. Without objection, so ordered.
    I now recognize myself for an opening statement.
    And, ladies and gentlemen, I am Joe Wilson, chairman of the 
Middle East, North Africa, and Central Asia Subcommittee of the 
Foreign Affair Committee and a grateful Member of Congress from 
South Carolina.
    Since the fall of Sana'a when Houthi terrorists violently 
overthrew the internationally recognized government of Yemen, 
the Hamas puppet Houthis, along with the Iranian other puppets, 
have made territory gains and have expanded their capacity to 
carry out mass murder directed by the regime in Tehran.
    The Iranian regime terrorist puppets in Yemen, the Houthis, 
have launched over 30 attacks on commercial and naval vessels 
in the Red Sea since November. Their capacity to field such 
attacks is a commentary on the Iranian regime's direct support 
for its network of terrorist puppets and their growth in the 
region.
    The Houthis and other puppet terrorist groups funded, 
trained, and supplied by the regime in Tehran are operating 
with sophisticated weapons, including precision-guided missiles 
and long range drones.
    The Houthis have conducted hundreds of attacks on our 
valued allies and partners in the region and have directly 
targeted U.S. targets, disrupting world shipping, fueling 
inflation for household products worldwide, and interrupting 
the delivery of grain around the world to countries that are 
need.
    They receive material and political support from the 
world's foremost State sponsor of terrorism and have 
coordinated with at least two foreign terrorist organizations, 
the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and Hezbollah, but were 
foolishly delisted as a foreign terrorist organization by the 
Biden Administration in February 2021 only to be redesignated 
as a specially designated global terrorist. Sadly, this is 
severely inadequate and does nothing to hold the regime in 
Tehran accountable for the direct support for the Houthi 
terrorist puppets.
    The Houthis have paraded identical copies of Iranian 
ballistic missiles, land attack cruise missiles, and anti-ship 
cruise missiles and suicide drones. We have seen some of these 
projectiles launched after October 7 toward or ally in the 
region, Israel, and formerly they had attacked Saudi Arabia and 
the United Arab Emirates.
    And more recently, at least 30 plus instances toward 
international commercial shipping in the Red Sea, spiking 
insurance premiums and costs for goods on vessels moving across 
a body of water where between 10 to 15 percent of global trade 
passes daily.
    The Houthis' ability to disrupt shipping gives the regime 
in Tehran a significant boost in legitimacy and is a key to 
their goal of death to American, death to Israel.
    Proxies of their regime in Tehran have benefited from 
Biden's hands-off policies and have conveniently attached 
themselves to the claims of the Palestinians. This is about 
fealty to Iranian regime and its agenda.
    The Biden Administration, in diplomatic pursuit of a 
disastrous nuclear deal has completely ignored the mass 
proliferation and development of missiles in terrorism by the 
regime, arming its proxies and dictator allies. The Iranian 
regime's missile program is the cornerstone of its nuclear 
program.
    President Trump was correct in canceling the deal, which 
did nothing to address intercontinental ballistic program or 
proliferation of terrorism as he successfully built deterrence 
to protect Israel and America with indeed the Abraham Accords.
    This Administration sadly has completely failed to respond 
to and deter future attacks, striking an ammunition depot in 
Yemen after providing advance warning is not a sufficient 
deterrence.
    There is sincere and bipartisan outrage over the conditions 
of extreme poverty in Yemen. Houthi terrorists have engaged in 
massive aid diversion to immerse themselves in their loyalists 
while the people of Yemen continue suffering the consequences 
of the Iran-backed civil war.
    The people of Yemen deserve better than constant civil war 
due to Iranian regime-backed terrorism.
    We also understand the interconnection of the dictators 
with rule of gun invading democracies with rule of law. We see 
this sadly as we respect the courageous people of Ukraine, the 
courageous people of Israel who are resisting the access of 
evil, war criminal Putin, the regime in Tehran and its puppets 
and the Chinese Communist Party.
    This Administration must reverse course and restore 
credible deterrence to avoid further attacks and 
destabilization. And I believe, if they did, it would be 
bipartisan.
    I want to again thank you for the witnesses being here 
today and your expertise. And I look forward to hearing now 
from the ranking member, Gerry Connolly, also known as past 
president of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly. Mr. President?
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Since 
November 19, the Houthis and Iranian-backed militia 
organization in Yemen have attacked over 40 commercial ships 
and multiple U.S. Naval vessels in the Red Sea with no signs of 
stopping.
    They have attacked commercial vessels indiscriminately, 
wreaking havoc on international shipping and the global 
economy. Just in the last 3 months, Houthi threats to ships, 
crews and goods crossing the Red Sea have forced major shipping 
companies to spend millions of dollars, more fuel, and add an 
additional 10 days of traveling around the Horn of Africa that 
so far has cost $200 billion.
    The costly delay will ultimately be felt most significantly 
by many in the developing world who have already seen rising 
prices due to inflation caused by Putin's War in Ukraine, the 
COVID-19 pandemic, and other disruptions in the global supply 
chain.
    It is important that this subcommittee articulate that 
there is absolute clarity on a bipartisan basis when it comes 
to Houthi targeting of American service members or core 
American interests.
    Arbitrary Houthis attacks on commercial shipping have 
already disrupted a key pillar of the international order that 
has an impact on all nations, freedom of navigation.
    At its core, freedom of navigation entitles all countries' 
vessels to transit around the world in peace, free form 
interference. The protection and promotion of this longstanding 
international principal warrants an international response, not 
to mention how Houthi attacks impact the global economy.
    The Biden Administration has crafted a response that 
defends U.S. interest and deters further aggression while 
preventing regional escalation, which I believe we must be very 
mindful of, a strategy that some of my friends on the other 
side of the aisle, including your, Mr. Chairman, have 
criticized.
    A successful strategy is one that utilizes all the tools in 
our toolbox, diplomatic, economic and if needed, and only as a 
last resort, military action.
    Some of my colleagues would like to see an Administration 
that acts unilaterally to impose great costs on Iran and its 
proxies, committing American blood and treasure to another 
analyst's war in the Middle East, all while neglecting the 
devastating humanitarian situation in Yemen.
    Let's be clear. Calls for direct strikes on Iran are 
dangerous and undermine the Administration's efforts to prevent 
and expand the conflict. A restart to civil war in Yemen will 
not achieve American objectives. And the Biden Administration 
rightly sought to prevent wide-scale famine for Yemen civilians 
while degrading Houthi military capabilities and defending U.S. 
servicemen and facilities in the region.
    Such a strategy is critical for the millions of Yemenis who 
remain dependent on outside humanitarian aid for even the most 
basic of necessities.
    According to the United Nations, 18.2 million people in 
Yemen, more than half of its populations depend on such 
humanitarian assistance, 4.5 million Yemenis are considered 
internally displaced, and 17.6 million are food insecure.
    Years of bombing, ground combat, destruction, and 
impoverishment from the brutal war that had preceded this set 
of events forced millions of Yemeni civilians to suffer 
persistent food scarcity resulting in near famine conditions 
and widespread malnutrition, especially among children, 
recurring disease, medical goods shortages and extreme economic 
hardship. A rupture of the tenuous cease-fire brokered in Yemen 
would mean another hot conflict in a region that can ill afford 
it.
    Since before the Houthis started attacking commercial 
shipping in November, the Biden Administration clearly stated 
it is not interested in a broader conflict in the region.
    The Administration has made clear that the United States 
will not hesitate, however, to protect our personnel, both 
through action at the U.N. and direct military strikes. And it 
has followed through on that commitment.
    The United States supported a Security Council resolution 
condemning the Houthi attacks and urging against regional 
escalation in the days leading up to the military action, 
making the case to the international community on the knee to 
hold the Houthis accountable for their action.
    The Administration also imposed additional powerful 
sanctions on the Houthis by designating the group as a 
specially designated global terrorist group.
    This powerful measure sanctions the facilitation and 
support networks coordinated by Iran, which helped keep the 
Houthi militants armed and equipped.
    The Biden Administration also administered over 55 separate 
Iran sanction rollouts targeting more than 550 individuals and 
entities. And just this week, the DOJ announced the indictments 
of IRGC leadership in Iran and others for terrorist sanction of 
Asia, fraud and money laundering offenses in connection with 
the trafficking and selling of Iranian oil sanctioned as well 
as the seizure of more than 500,000 barrels sanctioned oil.
    By all accounts, the Administration's pressure on Iran is 
working. Just last week, the rial hit an all-time low and the 
12 month inflation rate is now at 46.7 percent, a record high 
in Iran since the U.S. imposed meaningful sanctions in 1996.
    Militarily, the United States has moved in concert with 
partners and allies to expand interdiction operations to 
prevent illegal Iranian weapons from reaching the Houthis in 
Yemen and has established a 22 nation security operation to 
protect maritime vessels from Houthi attacks in the Red Sea.
    It is not just an issue that impacts the United States, but 
the entire international community. With the leadership of our 
country and the Biden Administration, we have put together a 
broad coalition of partners to defend, share an interest in the 
region to secure the freedom of navigation and open sea lanes 
of communication.
    I look forward to hearing from our distinguished panel and 
will very much appreciate a lively conversation. Thank you, and 
I yield back.
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much Congressman Connolly. As an 
indication of how important this hearing is, we are very 
grateful to welcome the Chairman of the Foreign Affairs 
Committee. And we now recognize Chairman Mike McCaul from Texas 
for his opening statement.
    Mr. McCaul. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Ranking Member 
Connolly. Since Hamas' brutal October 7 attack on Israel, 
Iran's proxies throughout the Middle East have launched assault 
after assault on the United States and our partners.
    The Houthis in Yemen have launched dozens of attacks 
against international shipping in the Red Sea and Gulf of Aden.
    These ongoing Iran-backed attacks threaten a wide array of 
international interest. They are driving up shipping costs, 
increasing insurance rates, and disrupting global supply 
chains.
    The Houthis' latest escalation is a symptom of the 
international community's failure to address the Houthi threat. 
For years the Houthis have benefited from support provided by 
Iran and Hezbollah, which transformed this group of rag-tag 
gorillas into a fighting force with the capacity to destabilize 
the entire region and disrupt global trade.
    But the world has consistently downplayed this threat and 
Iran's role in enabling it. The Biden Administration's policies 
have emboldened the Houthis at the expense of our regional 
partners. And by projecting weakness on the world stage, this 
Administration has invited aggression.
    While Iran was smuggling weapons to the Houthis, this 
Administration was busy lifting terror designations and cutting 
off support to Saudi Arabia and amid Houthi cross-border fire.
    Appeasement has no place in U.S. foreign policy, but that 
is exactly what has occurred in Yemen and beyond. Even now this 
Administration continues to treat the Houthis with kid gloves. 
They are promoting a U.N. peace deal that would legitimize the 
Houthis' violent autocratic rule over millions of innocent 
Yemenis and secure Iran's foothold in Yemen.
    And despite redesignating the Houthis as a specially 
designated global terrorist organization, President Biden has 
refused to use the strongest tool at his disposal, and that is 
the foreign terrorist organization designation that they had 
prior to this Administration.
    I think it's time to recognize them for who they are and 
redesignate them as a foreign terrorist organization. There can 
be no denying that the Houthis are terrorists and present a 
real threat.
    As attacks by the Houthis continue, urgent action is 
clearly needed to deter them and defend U.S. national interest.
    I look forward to this hearing and hearing how we can work 
with our allies and partners to protect our service members and 
the global economy as well as steps to promote stability in the 
region for nobody wants war. Nobody wants an escalation. Nobody 
wants war with Iran. But history teaches us that if we do not 
act in strength but rather weakness, we will invite aggression, 
conflict, and war.
    It is as old as Neville Chamberlain and Hitler. Churchill 
talked about appeasement. Reagan talked about peace through 
strength. If we do not project strength, we will get conflict 
and war. One hundred sixty attacks on our soldiers in Iraq and 
Syria and then Tower 22 in Jordan with little response. It only 
begets more violence.
    Deterrence is necessary to promote peace in the region. And 
Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you for holding this very 
important hearing and with that, I yield back.
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Chairman Mike McCaul. And 
we are pleased to have distinguished witnesses with us today.
    Ms. Simone A. Ledeen, the Former Deputy Assistant Secretary 
of Defense for the Middle East. We are grateful to have also 
Dr. Kenneth M. Pollack, a former CIA analyst and NSC Security 
Counsel Director for the Persian Gulf. Finally, we have Dr. Jon 
Alterman, Senior Vice President/Director of the Middle East 
Program at the Center for Strategic and International Studies.
    We want to thank you all for being here today. Your full 
statements will be made part of the record. And I will ask each 
of you to keep your spoken remarks to 5 minutes in order to 
allow time for member questions. I now recognize Secretary 
Ledeen for her opening statement.

 STATEMENT OF SIMONE LEDEEN, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY 
                 OF DEFENSE FOR THE MIDDLE EAST

    Ms. Ledeen. Chairman McCaul, Chairman Wilson, Ranking 
Member Connolly, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, 
thank you for the opportunity to testify today.
    My name is Simone Ledeen, and I previously served as Deputy 
Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East.
    The Middle East is at a pivotal moment. The region is 
currently embroiled in a high-stakes, multidimensional conflict 
fueled by Iran's calculated aggression against the United 
States, Israel, and other.
    The evidence is clear. The Iranian regime is sowing this 
discord, which threatens international peace and stability. 
From the shadows, the regime is advancing its agenda by 
planning and funding attacks by its proxies.
    My focus today will be on one of these Iranian-backed 
proxies, the Houthis in Yemen, and how the U.S. should respond 
to accelerating Iranian aggression,
    The Biden Administration's timid approach toward Iran has 
placed U.S. service members and crucial global trade routes at 
grave risk. The Administration's policy of appeasement toward 
the Iranian regime has proven to be a dangerous fantasy, 
setting the post-Abraham Accords Middle East on fire. Urgent 
action is required to change course and re-establish 
deterrence.
    The Iranian-backed Houthis have escalated their attacks on 
commercial shipping and U.S. Naval war ships in the Red Sea 
since November 2023. The Houthis have used drones, missiles, 
and small boats to target both commercial and naval vessels 
across the Southern Red Sea, the Bab al-Mandab Strait, the Gulf 
of Aden, and the Arabian Sea.
    Companies have had to reroute ships around Africa, 
increasing shipping costs and travel times. Normally an 
estimated 12 percent of the international trade, amounting to 
over $1 trillion in goods annually, navigates through the Red 
Sea and the Suez Canal annually.
    Since the Houthi attacks began, freight rates from East 
Asia to Europe have surged over 200 percent. Since October 
2023, the Houthis have used an alarming array of increasingly 
sophisticated weapons, including cruise missiles and land 
attack cruise missiles, unmanned aerial vehicles, unmanned 
surface vessels, essentially remote controlled bomb boats, and 
anti-ship ballistic missiles, or ASBMs, making the Houthis the 
first in the world to deploy ballistic missiles against ships, 
signaling a sophisticated leap in their military capabilities, 
which now align with those of only a very few nations.
    At the same time, Iran and its allies have been exploiting 
maritime navigation systems to conduct operations with relative 
impunity in the Red Sea, often disguising their activities 
under the flags of China, Iran, or Russia. The Dark Fleet, as 
these ships have been called, enjoys a particular immunity from 
Houthi attacks, navigating with relative impunity, a fact which 
points to a level of coordination, which should concern us all.
    The Houthis post a multifaceted threat to Yemen, the 
broader Middle East and U.S. service members. The Houthi 
movement begun as a Shiite insurgency against Yemen Sunni 
government has, with Iranian support, become a key military 
player in the Middle East, devastating Yemen, creating a vast 
humanitarian crisis, and complicating U.S. and allied strategic 
interests in a broader Middle East proxy conflict. 
Additionally, the Iranian-backed Houthi chaos in Yemen has 
given Al Qaeda and the Arabian Peninsula a favorable 
environment for training and attack planning.
    This is the same terrorist organization responsible for the 
USS Cole bombing and the Charlie Hebdo attack. The Houthi 
movement, central to Iran's strategy to increase its influence 
and disrupt the Middle East status quo has escalated Gulf 
Region tensions through missile and drone attacks on Saudi 
Arabia, endangering global oil supplies.
    Additionally, by targeting Red Sea routes, they 
significantly threaten Israel's supply chain, underscoring 
their role in Iran's broader ambitions to reshape regional 
geopolitical dynamics.
    The Houthis also threaten U.S. service members stationed in 
the region. The group's access to drones, missiles, and naval 
mines enables them to target U.S. forces, which they are 
currently doing in attacks in U.S. Navy and Merchant Marine 
vessels.
    In the face of this threat, the United States must re-
evaluate its regional strategy. The contrast between the 
optimism fostered by the Abraham Accords in 2020 and the 
current reality could not be more stark.
    The disillusionment with the Biden Administration's 
regional policy is palpable among our partners and allies. The 
Biden Administration's early diplomatic efforts in the region, 
including pressuring Saudi Arabia to cease hostilities against 
the Houthis, delisting the Houthis as a foreign terrorist 
organization in February 2021, and attempting to revive the 
joint comprehensive plan of action with Iran has instead only 
emboldened them.
    According to the Foundation for Defense of Democracy, since 
the start of the Biden Administration, Iran has successfully 
exported oil worth more than $100 billion. This dramatic 
increase in oil revenue explains how Iran is funding its 
terrorist proxies externally and domestic oppression 
internally.
    To effectively counter Iran and its proxies, the United 
States must take several steps. First, we must rigorously 
enforce sanctions, targeting Iran's vital economic sectors, 
such as oil exports and banking, which could significantly cut 
its available funds for proxy terrorism.
    Second, the U.S. must establish deterrence and protect 
freedom of navigation by decisively targeting the Houthis and 
their IRGC sponsors, moving beyond the current ineffective 
defense-only strategy.
    By disrupting their operational networks and reducing 
Houthis territorial control in Yemen, along with deploying 
additional U.S. military assets for rapid regional response, 
the U.S. will be in a much stronger position to restore global 
commerce routes through the Red Sea and Bab al-Mandab.
    Third, the U.S. must enhance cooperation with regional 
allies to secure necessary access basing and overflight rates. 
This entails deepening strategic partnerships and expanding 
intelligent sharing mechanisms to effectively counteract 
Iranian influence.
    Fourth, the U.S. should reinvigorate the Saudi-led 
coalition's efforts to neutralize the Houthi threat in Yemen by 
providing comprehensive military support, including advanced 
weaponry, intelligence assistance, logistical support, and 
training to Saudi forces. This should also include working with 
the Northern Tribes.
    Fifth, the U.S. must provide unwavering support to Israel, 
both to safeguard its security but also to demonstrate our 
reliability as a partner and ally.
    Finally, the U.S. needs to support the protest movement 
within Iran. We could be issuing official statements 
recognizing the legitimacy of the protester's grievances and 
offer tangible support, such as facilitating secure 
communications channels for activities.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Ledeen follows:]

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    Mr. Wilson. Madam Secretary, to keep within time, and we 
need to continue to Director Pollack, but I want to thank 
because I agree with everything you have said. So I'm not 
disagreeing with you. But your multi-points are very good. I 
look forward to working with Congressman Connolly to try to see 
what we can agree. But we now need to proceed to Director 
Pollack. And, again, we need to stick to the 5-minutes so that 
we can get to the floor.

   STATEMENT OF KENNETH POLLACK, PhD, FORMER CIA ANALYST AND 
    NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL DIRECTOR FOR THE PERSIAN GULF

    Mr. Pollack. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, 
Representative Connolly, distinguished members, it's a great 
honor to be able to talk to you on this important subject.
    In the 5-minutes you've given me, I would like to make five 
simple points to the subcommittee.
    First, I want to start by saying that I have been impressed 
with the Administration's response to the Houthi attacks so 
far. It has been larger, more powerful, and more sustained than 
I had expected. It probably has rocked the Houthis and the 
Iranians, and it is undoubtedly a major element in the 
diminution of Houthi attacks we have seen in recent days. 
However, I am skeptical that it will achieve our ultimate 
objectives.
    Second point, it is certainly the case that the attacks on 
Red Sea shipping are serving Iranian goals in a variety of 
different ways. But we need to recognize that they are serving 
Houthi goals brilliantly, independent of whatever Iran is 
getting from them.
    This military campaign by the Houthis distracts from 
problems in governance and economic affairs in the Yemeni areas 
under oppressive Houthi control. It allows them to ingratiate 
themselves with the wider Arab and Muslim worlds where they 
were strongly disliked, even hated before October 7. It allows 
them to play on the world stage as well where their ultimate 
ambitions lie.
    Third, what we are attempting with the Houthis is 
ultimately a strategy of coercion. And coercion requires 
threatening something that the other side values more than 
whatever it is you want them to do or to stop doing.
    I am hopeful, but I am skeptical, that merely destroying 
their anti-shipping capability will constitute such a threat to 
them. I think that that requires us to consider instead that 
which the Houthis clearly would value more than what they are 
getting from their anti-shipping attacks and that is their 
control of Yemeni territory. That is their first priority.
    Moreover, the only times that we have seen the Houthis 
willing to negotiate and to make compromises, let alone 
concessions, have been when their control of territory has been 
threatened as it was in 2018 at Hudaydah and in 2022 at Ma'rib. 
That, in turn, suggests that the only way to convince the 
Houthis to cease and desist from these attacks will be to 
threaten them on the ground.
    Now I want to be very, very clear about this. I am not 
suggesting American boots on the ground in Yemen. That is 
unnecessary. That would be entirely counterproductive. However, 
I do believe that it will ultimately require the United States 
to arm, equip, and train the anti-Houthi coalition that is 
operating under the umbrella of the government of Yemen. It 
could mean deploying American air power as well as we did in 
support of Iraqi forces against ISIS in 2014 to 2018.
    Finally, when this latest civil war broke out in Yemen, and 
we should recognize Yemen has been in various states of civil 
war for decades if not centuries. But when this latest round 
broke out, we staunchly believed that we had no interest in 
this conflict other than to shut down the fighting as soon as 
possible to limit civilian casualties.
    That was understandable, but it turns out it was also 
mistaken. The Houthis have proven themselves to be belligerent, 
aggressive, and convinced that violence is the best way to get 
what they want. They also share Iran's goals of driving the 
United States out of the region, destroying Israel, and 
overturning the governments of American allies. They are forces 
of oppression inside Yemen and forces of aggression beyond it.
    Yemen, the United States, the Middle East, and the entire 
world would be better off without them in power in Sana'a.
    Thank you very much.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Pollack:]
    
    GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT

    
    
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Director Pollack.
    We now recognize Dr. Alterman for an opening statement.

STATEMENT OF JON ALTERMAN, PhD, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, ZBIGNIEW 
   BRZEZINSKI CHAIR IN GLOBAL SECURITY AND GEOSTRATEGY, AND 
    DIRECTOR, MIDDLE EAST PROGRAM, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND 
                     INTERNATIONAL STUDIES

    Mr. Alterman. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 
Connolly, it is an honor to appear before the committee once 
again.
    The Houthis are a paradox, a rag-tag military operating on 
a shoestring budget that does not even represent a State should 
not be a difficult adversary for the most powerful military in 
the world.
    Similarly, it should be easy for the United States to build 
a broad military coalition to protect freedom of navigation 
through seas that carry about 20 percent of global container 
trade and is a key conduit of both energy and manufactured 
goods to Europe. And yet here we are with Houthi forces 
continually threatening global hipping and the United States 
working principally with UK partners to strike at Houthi 
targets while our regional allies and NATO partners keep their 
distance.
    Some call for robust U.S. military strikes in Iran to 
punish the Iranian government for all of its destabilizing 
regional actions. Some call for crushing the Houthis 
completely.
    I understand the attraction of decisively asserting U.S. 
military power, yet doing so without clear forethought would 
actually advance Iranian goals rather than U.S. ones and would 
not do much to stabilize Yemen.
    As I outlined in my written remarks, the United States 
faces at least five threats in Yemen. The first is that the 
United States actually boosts the Houthis when they demonstrate 
resilience after comprehensive U.S. effort to destroy their 
capabilities.
    This plays into a narrative that their mere survival 
represents a victory. We do not want the Houthis to present 
themselves as among the fiercest and most resilient fighters in 
the Middle East.
    The second is that the United States glides down a slippery 
slope of increased military engagement in Yemen divorced from 
the scale of U.S. interests there.
    I worry that this moment would be part of a long cycle of 
U.S. engagement in, and disengagement from Yemen, which has 
often been linked to counterterrorism and which has helped 
nurture greater violence in Yemen.
    The third danger is that the United States precipitates an 
even greater humanitarian disaster in Yemen or is perceived to 
do so. I can see circumstances in which the United States is 
accused of instigating the spread of famine and disease in 
Yemen with Iran, Russia, China, and some regional media 
amplifying that message.
    The fourth is that we fall into an Iranian trap, sucked 
into a grinding, open-ended conflict in the region that 
continues to put U.S. troops at risk without increasing 
regional security. This will ultimately undermine both the 
region's and the American public's willingness to sustain a 
military presence.
    The fifth is that the battle in Yemen deepens the rift 
between the United States and partner militaries. It is both 
remarkable and worrying that key NATO allies and key regional 
allies want nothing to do with any military operations in 
Yemen.
    No one can consider it sustainable when the U.S. is one of 
only a handful of countries willing to fight to defend public 
goods. And when close partners seek to benefit from U.S. 
actions without contributing to them, that is, of course, the 
world that many of our adversaries in the Middle East and 
around the world would like to see. And I could imagine U.S. 
military action in Yemen hastening its realization.
    The Iranians and the Houthis do not fight fair. They feel 
their relative weakness and the virtue of their cause justifies 
breaking the rules of war. They are skilled at using 
asymmetrical tactics, and they position themselves to portray 
their mere survival as victory.
    We do not fight that way. But we are overwhelmingly the 
stronger power, and we have things that each side believes it 
needs. There is a role for our military strength, but we should 
not forget that it is just a tool. Our ambition isn't military 
victory. It is using military instruments to provoke our 
adversaries to make a political decision to change. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Alterman follows:]

   GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT
    
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much. And I thank each of you 
for your testimony and to show extraordinary bipartisanship, 
Congressman Connolly and I agree on something, that we all 
limit it to 5 minutes, even Congresswoman Manning.
    So 5 minutes, Congressman Bair. And I know he always 
follows through. With that in mind, again, I want to thank all 
of you for being here. Please begin the 5-minutes.
    I've had a long time interest sadly visiting 4 years ago an 
exhibit of downed drones that have been taken by Saudi Arabia 
by the United Arab Emirates. And these drones, some had a--we 
are not talking about ones you see at the grocery store, 
$39.95. These have a wing span of 30 feet. And they were to 
deliver munitions for indiscriminate killing of civilians.
    And indeed, it was also quite clear, in English, virtually 
every one of them had been made in Iran. So there was no 
question where they came from. And so to me, we have got to 
address this for benefit of freedom of navigation in our 
country.
    Additionally, I am very grateful, too, that we need to 
stand together for freedom to have peace through strength, and 
we need to address and know that freedom is not free. And I, 
particularly, sympathize sadly with the three Georgia Army 
Reservists who were killed. And I have had sons serve in Iraq, 
Egypt, and Afghanistan. All four of my sons have served in the 
global war on terrorism, which is not over. The terrorists have 
many plans for us, which is really clear, of death to America, 
death to Israel.
    With all of that in mind, and I do want to congratulate 
Secretary Ledeen, you do have clear forethought. So you all 
should get together with the different points that you have. 
And we need to be clear. And in particular the providing of 
funding by oil sales is just totally out of what should be done 
to actually promote peace through strength in the world.
    With that in mind, Secretary Ledeen, why did the Biden 
Administration choose not to apply the stronger of two 
designations given on the foreign terrorist organization 
designation which criminalizes providing materials, support, 
and resources, which is so desperately needed to control the 
Iran puppets?
    Ms. Ledeen. Chairman Wilson, thanks for the opportunity to 
respond.
    I think first and foremost, it is clear that the Biden 
Administration from the beginning of this conflict has done the 
bare minimum. I think they realize that there is a political 
outcry because global shipping has been put at risk.
    So to continue to do nothing was not acceptable. So instead 
the decision clearly has been made to do in terms of putting 
new sanctions, the bare minimum. So redesignating the Houthis 
as a specially designated under a Treasury Department 
designation rather than the stronger foreign terrorist 
organization designation, so in order to say we have done 
something.
    But I would compare that, sir, to the responses that we are 
seeing militarily, defensive in nature only, so in order to say 
they are doing something. But the reality is our partners and 
allies, and unfortunately the IRGC and their Houthis proxies, 
see very clearly that we are not taking real action. And so the 
attacks are continuing, and they will continue until a more 
forceful response is initiated.
    Mr. Wilson. And Director Pollack, indeed, the lack of 
response to me is very troubling because we have had attacks by 
the puppets of Iran that affect 40 different countries. This is 
not just America, not just the United Kingdom. And the effect 
of delivering grain to countries, causing potential starvation 
around the world, this is a defensive action on our part. What 
more can we do to degrade the Iranian capabilities in the Red 
Sea?
    Mr. Pollack. I think we need to recognize that Iran is 
trying to wage war against the United States and its allies all 
across the region. The Red Sea is one theater. And the Houthis 
are one actor in that.
    And I think that what we need to recognize is that we need 
to push back on the Iranians everywhere. The best way that we 
can push back on the Iranians everywhere is by helping our 
allies everywhere. And unfortunately for the last, at least 15 
years, and let's recognize it has been under the last two 
Administrations, including this one, that our allies have felt 
time and again that the United States has not been there to 
support them. That they have been forced to take on the 
Iranians on their own.
    And as a result, we have seen our allies make compromises 
with the Iranians, mostly recently, and I think most 
flagrantly, the agreement between the Saudis and the Iranians 
brokered by the Chinese. Again, too much has been made of that, 
but nonetheless, it is a clear sign that these are all 
countries, allies of ours, that simply do not believe that the 
United States is supporting them and that therefore they have 
to make compromises which they did not want to make.
    Mr. Wilson. Director, thank you. I thank each of you. And 
now I proceed to Congressman Gerry Connolly.
    Mr. Connolly. I am going to defer to Mr. Sherman.
    Mr. Sherman. Thank you. If there ever was a foreign 
terrorist organization, it is the Houthi. We have not 
designated them. We are not designating them because that could 
possibly interfere with feeding the people they rule.
    This would come as a shock to General Douglas MacArthur if 
in the day after Pearl Harbor he had been informed that his No. 
1 objective was to feed the civilians of Japan.
    Those who cheer the Houthi, who shout their praises, claim 
to be progressives. They should take responsibility for the 
death that the Houthi have caused not just in Yemen but 
elsewhere.
    You see 20 percent of Ukraine's grain exports go through 
the Red Sea, similar amounts from other countries. When that 
grain price goes up, people in East Africa and Ethiopia and 
Tigray and poor parts of South Asia do not eat as much. They 
cannot afford it. And they die. Not wasting disease that you 
can capture on a video, but rather they are eating two meals 
instead of three, and that increases their susceptibility to 
death.
    I would like without objection to put in the record an 
article from The Advocate, perhaps the leading LGBTQ+ 
publication in America, which is headlined, Houthi Court 
Sentences 13 Men to Public Execution for Gay Sex.
    Now that is just one court in one province at one time. How 
many members of the LGBTQ+ are brutally killed by the Houthi 
year in and year out? So there is blood on the hands of the 
Houthi. There is blood on the hands of those who prevent us 
from taking effective action against them and shout their 
praises. And I see that blood is actually on the hands of 
people visible to me right now.
    OK. I would ask for some additional time. I think Dr. 
Pollack, you had it exactly right. We cannot limit ourselves to 
just trying to prevent the Houthi--reduce the amount by which 
the Houthi intercept shipping. We have to provide weapons to 
the legitimate government of Yemen and its allies.
    Dr. Pollack, Iran benefits from freedom of navigation 
around the world. Is it morally right that not a single Iranian 
ship has been stopped by the U.S. Navy, even for a day, when 
Iran interferes with the Commerce of the entire world?
    Mr. Pollack. The morality of it I simply am not qualified 
to comment on. Strategically, what I will say is that the 
United States has chosen not to do so repeatedly for a wide 
variety of reasons.
    But I think that it is important. I think that the question 
that you are asking, Congressman, is a very important one. And 
it should be on the table.
    As my dear friend, Dr. Alterman, has pointed out, the 
Iranians do not fight by the rules. They do not play by the 
rules. And we have handcuffed ourselves time and again in 
trying to respond effectively by doing so when they choose not 
to.
    We are confronted all across the region by a very 
determined, wile and unscrupulous adversary. We owe it to put 
all of the options on the table and consider them.
    Mr. Sherman. So if a ship taking luxury goods to Iran was 
delayed for a day or two, would Tehran get the message?
    Mr. Pollack. They might very well. We have seen that in the 
past, the Iranians are incredibly cautious and respectful of 
American military power. When they believe that there is no 
threat that we will employ it, they do whatever they can. When 
they believe that there is a chance we will employ it, they 
suddenly become much more cautious and respectful.
    Mr. Sherman. I would finally point out that they have a 
durable cease-fire in Gaza. We need to see Hamas leave Gaza 
just as we saw in 1982 when a terrorist left Lebanon. And a 
durable cease-fire cannot exist if Hamas is there because they 
have already declared.
    They want to repeat October 7 again and again until the 
blood of Israelis flows again and again. That is the goal of 
Hamas, and that is the goal of those who support Hamas.
    Mr. Wilson. I would like to remind the audience that 
disruption of committee proceedings is against the law. Holding 
up signs or making verbal, ignorant outbursts during the 
proceedings is disruptive, the ignorant outbursts, 
particularly.
    Any disruptions will result in a suspension of proceedings 
until the Capitol Police can restore order. And indeed there 
should be understanding there are people here who want peace 
through strength. With that, I now recognize the Congressman 
from Georgia, Congressman Dr. Veteran Rich McCormick.
    Mr. McCormick. I believe there is more people to remove, 
Mr. Chair, but I will start for now.
    I appreciate the witnesses' willingness to be here and to 
point out some very important things to us, both strategically 
and morally that I think will affect the future of the United 
States and global peace, which is ultimately what every warrior 
wants.
    Anybody who has ever put their life on the line to go 
overseas for their nation does not want war. I do not want my 
sons to go serve overseas and die. I want them to live. I want 
them to live in peace.
    With that, I think it is very important to recognize what 
we have done and what the consequences are. In February 2021, 
the Biden Administration removed the Houthis, which were on the 
foreign terrorist organization designation and their specially 
designated terrorist group designation when the Trump 
Administration had put it in place.
    At the time, Secretary Blinken cited humanitarian concerns 
as the reasons for these decisions, saying that the 
humanitarian aid could not reach the Yemen people if these 
designations remain in place.
    I want to make a few points I went on the fire freshman 
CODEL to Bangladesh, the largest refugee camp in the world, a 
million people have been displaced through violence who are 
living off of now $8 per person per month.
    There is people all over--we have a record number of 
refugees all over the world right now starving, displaced, 
being raped, being killed constantly. And yet we are more 
worried about idealism than realism when it comes to who we aid 
and who we abet.
    And this is the problem. When we talk about worrying about 
designations so that we can help a people that the money is not 
even getting to, that the help is not even getting to when you 
have an evil regime that is keeping the food from getting to 
the people who need it most.
    And instead, we have created an environment where the 
Iranians. When we are talking about realism and who we are 
trying to assist and who we are trying to claim as our 
friends--I think it goes without saying that I will reclaim my 
time.
    OK. Very good. Thank you. Ms. Ledeen, do you believe that 
the Biden Administration's reasoning for removing the Houthis 
from the FTO designation was accurate and the correct step in 
addressing the humanitarian crisis in Yemen?
    Ms. Ledeen. No, I do not.
    Mr. McCormick. Do you think that the aid that has been 
forthcoming goes to the right people?
    Ms. Ledeen. No, I do not.
    Mr. McCormick. Exactly my point. I think we need to be more 
concerned in supporting the resistance in Iran, for example, 
those people who would stand up against the injustices against 
women and children, against education, against rights.
    And there we go with the absolute understanding of realism 
versus idealism. Iran is an evil regime. It is a theocracy that 
oppresses its people. It has kept women from their natural God 
given rights.
    And yet we are more concerned with not getting food to the 
people that when we give aid to these corrupt agencies than we 
are with a resistance to a regime that is actually supporting 
all of our enemies, all around the world, and actually trying 
to kill Americans to the hundreds and thousands of efforts with 
armed aggression toward our troops overseas.
    We have lost Navy SEALs. We have lost Army National Guard. 
We have lost American lives. And we have put them in jeopardy 
every single day for the last, not just several months, but 
several years because of our policy.
    Dr. Pollack, how would you explain the Biden 
Administration's seemingly timid defensive response to the 
Houthi aggression? Is it fair to speculate that it is due in 
part to the Administration's desire to revive the Iran nuclear 
deal?
    Mr. Pollack. Congressman, first I would encourage you to 
have the Administration come and defend its own policies. But 
since you have asked me to speculate, I can certainly do so. I 
do suspect that that is part of what is going on. I think that 
they are hoping that at some point they can get back to it. And 
I think that just broadly speaking their approach has been to 
assume that negotiations are most likely when you start by 
making concessions to the other side.
    I understand the logic behind that, but historically, I do 
not think that it is ever proven to be accurate. People come to 
the table when they have a reason to do so. If you remove that 
reason for coming to the table, they either do not come or they 
show up not believing that they have to actually make 
concessions.
    Mr. McCormick. Well put, sir. It has been my experience in 
my over 20 years of Marine Corps and Navy experience around the 
world, whether it be in Africa, or the Middle East, or the Far 
East, or anywhere else we are in combatant zones, that evil 
people only understand one thing, and that's strength, and 
that's what creates peace, not weakness, not concessions.
    And I think whether it be President Carter, President 
Obama, or President Biden, what I have seen is that every time 
we give concessions, bad things are the result. And therefore, 
I would encourage my allies on both sides of the aisle, and I 
think we have made really good points from both sides of the 
aisle, to recognize evil and to deal with it accordingly. And 
with that, I yield.
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Dr. McCormick. And we now 
proceed to Congressman Gerry Connolly.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Alterman, 
welcome back. Good to see you again. Ms. Ledeen and others have 
characterized the Biden Administration response to the Houthi 
threat as timid. Do you share that view?
    Mr. Alterman. I would describe it as cautious rather than 
timid. But I would argue the Trump Administration was rather 
timid about the Houthis as well. After all----
    Mr. Connolly. The one that Ms. Ledeen worked for?
    Mr. Alterman. I am not, sir. Actually, I am a historian. 
And I am sorry, I am a historian.
    Mr. Connolly. I was just saying the pot calling the kettle 
black just needs to be called out.
    Mr. Alterman. Exactly.
    Mr. Connolly. So go ahead.
    Mr. Alterman. The gentleman from Virginia and I worked 
together when he was a young man, and I was a very young man. 
So we go back a little while.
    The Trump Administration did not designate the Houthis as a 
foreign terrorist organization until the last days, the last 2 
days of the Trump Administration.
    There are excruciatingly difficult problems involved with 
characterizing the Houthis as a foreign terrorist organization, 
in particular well-meaning people attempting to save lives----
    Mr. Connolly. I know, I have got to interrupt you. I only 
have 5 minutes.
    Mr. Alterman. OK.
    Mr. Connolly. So got it. So part of this timid 
characterization apparently seems to be we are not willing to 
go in more forcefully militarily to address the Houthi threat 
in the Red Sea and elsewhere.
    Remind us, was there not a pretty forceful military 
intervention by the Saudis in Yemen against the Houthi for some 
period of time?
    Mr. Alterman. There has been an almost 9-year effort by the 
Saudis. The Saudis are now trying to negotiate their way out 
of----
    Mr. Connolly. Dr. Alterman, please, answer the question. I 
did not ask that part. I am getting there. I am getting there.
    Mr. Alterman. Sorry, sir.
    Mr. Connolly. So how did that work out for the Saudis? Nine 
years of kinetic involvement that apparently others want the 
United States to emulate?
    Mr. Alterman. In fact it was only 2 years into the Saudi 
engagement in Yemen that the Iranians got deeply involved with 
providing precisely the weapons that the chairman referred to. 
That did not start at the beginning.
    Mr. Connolly. But Dr. Pollack made the point----
    Mr. Alterman. That was already 2 years into the Saudi War.
    Mr. Connolly [continuing]. But Dr. Pollack made the point, 
a good one, I thought, that the Houthis, what they care about 
is territory. Did the Houthis expand or contract territory 
during this 9 year interval of Saudi aggression?
    Mr. Alterman. My recollection it was mostly a stalemate. 
There was an initial period where they lost some territory, and 
things have been----
    Mr. Connolly. So if one of the goals of the Saudis was to 
restrict the Houthis and to regain territory, it apparently did 
not work, is that correct?
    Mr. Alterman. Correct.
    Mr. Connolly. Right, it did not work. So it isn't timidity 
for the Saudis now to look at other options, one of which is 
engagement. Is that fair?
    Mr. Alterman. Yes.
    Mr. Connolly. And would it be fair to say and the United 
States is encouraging that because of the lack of results of 
the alternative that was indeed tried over a 9-year period?
    Mr. Alterman. As well as the concern that there could be an 
open-ended regional conflict with no obvious endpoint.
    Mr. Connolly. Again, you are going far afield.
    Mr. Alterman. Sorry, sir.
    Mr. Connolly. Your brilliance precedes you, but you are 
answering questions not yet asked. But OK, that was my next 
one. What are the risks of the United States now with the best 
of intentions, deciding to expand its military response to the 
Houthi attacks? What are the risks of that? What could go 
wrong?
    Mr. Alterman. Well, one risk is that the Houthis keep doing 
it, and we look ineffectual. One risk is that we end up in an 
open-ended conflict defending soft targets all over the world 
that are hard to defend. The problem is we have to be 
successful 100 percent of the time. And if we are successful 99 
percent of the time, our adversaries point to the 1 percent, 
and our people point to the 1 percent, and we look like we are 
failing instead of succeeding.
    Mr. Connolly. Is there a reason to believe that the 
engagement that the Administration and the Saudis are involved 
in with the Houthis has promise of any kind of success?
    Mr. Alterman. I think it has promise of some success. I 
agree very much with Ken that you have to come into 
negotiations strong. But I also think that you have to be 
willing to let bad people get something, not because you like 
them but because they are a reality.
    Mr. Connolly. And that something for the Houthis is 
ultimately a participation in governance of Yemen.
    Mr. Alterman. I think participation, not control.
    Mr. Connolly. Right.
    Mr. Alterman. Participation in governance.
    Mr. Connolly. I thank you. And I thank you, Chairman. I 
yield back.
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you, Congressman Connolly, for abiding by 
the 5-minute rule. We now proceed to Congressman Jim Baird of 
Indiana.
    Mr. Baird. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank our witnesses 
for being here today. You know, on Monday, the terrorist 
organization, the Houthis we have been talking a lot about 
here, I will call them terrorist because that is what they 
really are. But they launched an attack on an Iran bound grain 
cargo ship.
    And as you know, Iran is a major Houthi ally. And this 
attack makes it clear that they were just widely targeting 
ships without a direct motive. And they claim that their 
strikes have been a response to the situation in Gaza. However, 
they have been targeting the ships that have absolutely no 
links to Israel.
    So are the Houthis using the war on Israel as an excuse to 
organize these inconsistent attacks? And can you explain the 
actual impact that these attacks have had on agricultural goods 
through the Bab al-Mandab? So Secretary Ledeen, would you want 
to start that discussion?
    Ms. Ledeen. Yes, thank you. I think it is important to look 
at the Houthi decisionmaking in the framework of being 
effectively and actually a proxy of Iran. So they are part of 
this regional escalation that Iran has underway right now. And 
they are one--you know, the analogy has been made frequently 
that the Iranian regime is like an octopus, the head of the 
octopus, and there are many different tentacles, the Houthis 
being one.
    So as we consider the decisionmaking of the Houthis, I 
think it is important to note Iran plays a very large role in 
that decisionmaking, especially as they provide a lot of the 
weapons that the Houthis are using. So I would characterize is 
that way.
    In terms of the disruption of shipping, specifically of 
agricultural products, that is clearly one of their primary 
intents. They want to disrupt global shipping. They want to 
increase the prices. They want to hurt us.
    In a way, we would think about it as effectively an Iranian 
sanction against us because they are raising the price of 
goods. And the longer this goes on, the higher these prices 
will become.
    Mr. Baird. Thank you. Dr. Pollack, do you have any thoughts 
on that?
    Mr. Pollack. Absolutely. I think that you are absolutely 
correct, Mr. Congressman, in that initially the Houthis did 
begin these attacks in hope of showing solidarity with the 
Palestinians because, as I mentioned, they were deeply, deeply 
unpopular in both the Arab and Muslim world beforehand. And 
this was a perfect opportunity for them to ingratiate 
themselves with both communities.
    But I think you are exactly right that the Houthis are 
getting a tremendous amount from these attacks. This is exactly 
what they wanted. And what we've seen as the Administration has 
pointed out, they are attacking ships that have no connection 
to Israel whatsoever.
    It is very useful for them. It is terrific for them to 
demonstrate their importance, their power in the world by 
shutting down or threatening to shut down one of the world's 
most important shipping routes.
    Mr. Baird. Dr. Alterman, do you----
    Mr. Alterman. And, Congressman, the other important thing 
is the Houthis are really bad at governance. They are really 
bad at governance. They are very unpopular. But being at war 
means that they bring people together. There is solidarity that 
comes from being at a war footing. Yemen has been at war. A lot 
of people like using weapons in Yemen. And the weapons are on 
display.
    There is a way in which being at war is much better for the 
Houthis because it means that people aren't criticizing them 
for being so bad at running Yemen.
    Mr. Baird. Thank you. I am about to run out of time so I 
think--I have got more questions, but I appreciate your 
answers. And I am going to yield back. Thank you.
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you, Congressman Jim Baird. We now 
proceed to Congressman Brad Schneider of Illinois.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank 
you for calling this meeting. I want to thank the witnesses for 
being here. It is good to see you guys as always. Maybe I will 
start with Dr. Pollack.
    When did the U.S. designate Hezbollah and Hamas as 
terrorist organizations? Do you remember?
    Mr. Pollack. I cannot answer that. I am sorry, Congressman.
    Mr. Schneider. I can. I looked it up. But it was October 8, 
1997. Was the U.S. right to designate Hezbollah and Hamas as 
terrorist organizations?
    Mr. Pollack. Absolutely.
    Mr. Schneider. You do not want to disagree with that? Was 
the U.S. right to designate the Houthis as a terrorist 
organization, Dr. Pollack?
    Mr. Pollack. Yes, I would say they would. They certainly 
meet the definition.
    Mr. Schneider. I think where we find ourselves--I am just 
going to tell my wife I cannot take her call right now--where 
we find ourselves, we face an immediate crisis with global 
implications. The Houthis are threatening global trade. They 
are citing excuses, but I think as you guys noted, they are 
achieving their own goals, covering up their inability to 
govern. And we need to address that crisis with great urgency.
    But there is also a longer term crisis that has more local 
implications, regional implications, which is the crisis facing 
Yemen and the governance of Yemen, creating one of the largest, 
not the largest, humanitarian crisis in the world.
    And the victims of this are the people of Yemen. And, you 
know, the Houthis have their own agenda, but it is certainly 
not to lift up the people of Yemen.
    I mention Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, is there a common 
thread to those three organizations, Dr. Pollack?
    Mr. Pollack. Well, let's see, they all start with H in 
English.
    Mr. Schneider. That's not what I had in mind, and you know 
that.
    Mr. Pollack. They are all backed by Iran.
    Mr. Schneider. Right.
    Mr. Pollack. They are all anti-American groups. They are 
all anti-Israel groups. They all employ violence against 
civilians to achieve their ends.
    Mr. Schneider. And I am going to quote from your prepared 
comments, but Iran is our enemy not because we want them to be, 
but because the government of Iran wants us to be. Would the 
same be true of the Houthis?
    Mr. Pollack. Absolutely. I think as you know well, their 
slogan is God is great, death to America, death to Israel, 
curse the Jews, victory to Islam.
    Mr. Schneider. Right. In fact as they cheer that and chant 
that cheer, they are saluting. Their salute is not the typical 
salute we think of, but it's the Nazi salute.
    The Houthis are anti-American, anti-Israel, and anti-
Semitic. And they are a threat, as I mentioned, to the region 
but also a threat to the people of Yemen.
    Dr. Alterman, one of the things we have to do is not just 
interdict Iran from supporting the Houthis, but find a way to 
end that support. Any suggestions on what we can do in Congress 
to try to address that and change that support?
    Mr. Alterman. I think partly it is important to recall that 
the Houthis aren't really strategic for the Iranians. The 
Houthis are a little bit of a freebie. The Houthis only cost 
the Iranians maybe about $100 million a year, which is about 
twice what it costs to run a think tank in Washington, but very 
impactful, as you have said.
    And I think we have to persuade the Iranians that the 
Houthis aren't worth it. And I worry that instead, we are 
persuading the Iranians the Houthis are totally worth it 
because we are getting wrapped around the axle in talking about 
a whole regional program.
    And they are a regional threat as you say, but I think we 
have to right size the nature of the Houthi threat. I think 
degrading their military capabilities is the right thing. But 
getting into a war of wills over the Houthis, I worry, is going 
to leave them victorious and looking strong, and us looking 
weak.
    Mr. Schneider. And I am running out of time, but I forget 
which of you said it, but you used the term coercion, and 
coercion is convincing, whether it is the Houthis or the 
Iranians, that the cost of the actions they are taking are far 
less--no the benefits of the actions they are taking are far 
less than the cost.
    And we have to work to ratchet up the consequences and the 
cost for both the Houthis and the Iranians to change their 
course because we cannot allow the Houthis to disrupt global 
trade. And that is an interest not just for the United States 
but for all of our allies. And we cannot allow what is 
happening today to end hope for the people of Yemen who are 
suffering and deserve the right to govern themselves.
    I am over my time with that. I yield back.
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Congressman Brad 
Schneider. We now proceed to Congressman Michael Lawler of New 
York.
    Mr. Lawler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When President Biden 
took office, he made a lot of ill thought out, and frankly 
foolish foreign policy decisions but at the top of the list was 
delisting the Houthis.
    While the Houthis were a designated foreign terrorist 
organization under the Trump Administration for clear reasons, 
President Biden almost immediately took them off the list. He 
did this apparently in an attempt to encourage the Houthis to 
reduce hostilities, enter into talks, and improve the 
conditions for the Yemeni people, but shockingly just the 
opposite happened. The Houthis did not reduce hostilities, and 
instead renewed efforts to expand territorial control inside of 
Yemen.
    We have also been unable to negotiate a meaningful 
resolution with the Houthis. And, of course, the Yemeni people 
are still living under oppression.
    Dr. Pollack, can you go into some detail about the 
conditions and abuses the Yemeni people living under Houthi 
control have been living in for the past few years?
    Mr. Pollack. Briefly, Dr. Alterman began this. Houthis have 
terrible governance. They do not understand how to run a 
country. They never were particularly interested in doing so. I 
think they were surprised when they had the opportunity to do 
so.
    The economy is Yemen is stalled badly. As we all know, 
there are enormous problems in terms of food distribution. Oil 
production--well, the Houthis have very little control over it. 
But in their area, there is very little going on.
    And we also need to recognize that the international 
community has been very rightly concerned about the 
humanitarian situation in Yemen for many years. The Houthis 
have not. Very famously in 2018, a joint Yemen government and 
Emirati force was threatening to take the last Houthi 
controlled seaport of Hudaydah.
    The world was terrified that there would be slaughter in 
Hudaydah. We descended upon the Emiratis. And the Yemeni 
government begged them to stop. They agreed to do so. The 
Houthis were forced to sign an agreement because they were 
about to lose Hudaydah. And the idea was they would leave 
Hudaydah to enable humanitarian supplies. They, of course, 
immediately reneged.
    Mr. Lawler. So that we are clear here, delisting the 
Houthis did nothing to help the Yemeni people and worsened 
regional security. In light of this Administration's failed 
policy and the Houthis continued aggression against the U.S., 
Ms. Ledeen, do you think the group should be relisted as an 
FTO?
    Ms. Ledeen. As soon as possible, yes.
    Mr. Lawler. Ms. Ledeen, do the Houthis meet all of the 
qualifications to be listed as an FTO?
    Ms. Ledeen. Absolutely, they do, yes.
    Mr. Lawler. And we passed a bill through this committee 
last week to require the relisting of the Houthis as an FTO. So 
from that bill and from this conversation and from my 
absolutely clear picture of what is happening in the Gulf 
region, it is my hope that the Administration does the right 
thing and relists them immediately as an FTO.
    One of the bills that I passed through the House Foreign 
Affairs Committee was the SHIP Act, which I led with my friend 
and colleague, Jared Moskowitz.
    This bill would establish new sanctions on entities that 
process illicit Iranian petroleum. Ports and refineries that 
facilitate Iran's oil trade are effectively financing the 
Iranian regime and its terrorist proxies.
    It is no secret that Iran sends financial and material 
assistance to Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis just to name a 
few. Can you all confirm that Iran provides funding to 
terrorist groups in the region?
    Ms. Ledeen. Yes, they do.
    Mr. Pollack. Yes, absolutely.
    Mr. Alterman. Yes.
    Mr. Lawler. Do you all believe that the President and his 
Administration, State Department, and Defense Department know, 
just like all of you, that Iran funds these terrorist groups?
    Ms. Ledeen. There is no doubt, yes.
    Mr. Pollack. Yes, absolutely.
    Mr. Alterman. Yes.
    Mr. Lawler. How have Iran's proxy activities changed since 
the Biden Administration came into office and relaxed 
enforcement of sanctions. Has it gotten better?
    Ms. Ledeen. Far from it. They have become much more violent 
and aggressive. And they have caused many deaths and 
destruction across the region, yes.
    Mr. Alterman. Mr. Lawler, I think after the assassination 
of Qasem Soleimani, the head of the Quds Force of the Islamic 
Republican Guard, many of these proxy groups have had more 
autonomy.
    And I think the Iranians have enjoyed the fact that they 
have had less responsibility and less control and that in many 
ways they have reaped more benefits from the misbehavior of 
these groups, but they have less control over these groups than 
they had under Qasem Soleimani.
    Mr. Lawler. So is your argument that Soleimani should have 
been left alone?
    Mr. Alterman. My argument is that assassinating Qasem 
Soleimani has not ended the threat from the Iranian proxy 
groups. And in many ways, the way it has morphed----
    Mr. Lawler. Did you oppose his assassination?
    Mr. Alterman. Nobody asked--do I oppose it now? I am saying 
it did not have the desired effect because----
    Mr. Lawler. Well, it does not have the desired effect 
because this Administration has weakened its sanctions. When 
you allow oil revenues to increase $80 billion, nearly 60 
percent since this Administration took office, and these funds 
are being used to fund Hamas, to fund Hezbollah, to fund the 
Houthis, then, yes, you are right.
    There is not a good consequence of that. But that has 
nothing to do with assassinating Soleimani. That has everything 
to do with this Administration's policy position to be weak on 
Iran. That is a policy choice that this Administration has 
made. And that is a function of relaxing sanctions on the sale 
of Iranian petroleum.
    That is why I introduced the SHIP Act. China is the biggest 
purchaser of Iranian petroleum.
    Mr. Connolly. Mr. Chairman, you asked us to abide by 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Congressperson Lawler. So 
we need to proceed.
    Mr. Lawler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Wilson. And I was trying to be respectful to the 
Congressman from Tennessee to get him back over here to sit 
quietly so he could ask his questions. And now I refer to the 
Congressperson from Tennessee Tim Burchett, the former mayor of 
Knoxville.
    Mr. Burchett. Knox County. But it is a little bigger than 
Knoxville City, but still thank you. Thank you, Mr. Baird.
    Ms. Ledeen--is it Ledeen or Layden? Ms.----
    Ms. Ledeen. Ledeen, yes.
    Mr. Burchett. Ledeen, I'm sorry. Nobody gets my name right, 
either, ma'am. So we're good.
    What have the recent strikes in Yemen achieved?
    Ms. Ledeen. There has been no demonstrable change since the 
strikes in Yemen.
    Mr. Burchett. In your opinion, what needs to be targeted so 
that these strikes will be more effective and that we do not 
keep hitting the same dadgum targets?
    Ms. Ledeen. I think we can, as a benchmark, use the 
insurance prices and shipping companies' decisions to reroute 
around the Horn of Africa as a sort of guide for this.
    But the recommendations that I have made in my oral and 
written testimony are really focused on empowering our partners 
and allies. But, yes, we should also be taking strikes against 
Houthi targets and IRGC targets that are training and equipping 
the Houthis as well.
    And that is--we know where those are. And we should be 
taking more aggressive action not simply defensive actions.
    Mr. Burchett. It seems to me also that we keep hitting the 
targets. I mean, we are not doing anything effective. Yes, we 
are showing them our capabilities. But to me, that does not--it 
is just a waste of resources.
    Dr. Pollack, did I get that name right? All right. Good 
deal.
    Mr. Pollack. Yes. And talk about a name that gets 
mispronounced frequently. Well done.
    Mr. Burchett. Yes, sir. Should we be concerned about any 
attempts to legitimize the Houthis as a government?
    Mr. Pollack. I think that we should. We need to recognize 
that this is not the government that the people of Yemen would 
choose if they ever had the opportunity to do so.
    Mr. Burchett. Right.
    Mr. Pollack. I agree with Dr. Alterman that they represent, 
or they may represent a portion of the Yemeni population, but 
they do not come close to representing the majority of the 
people of Yemen.
    Mr. Burchett. Do you feel like the Saudis would be willing 
to accept the Houthis de facto government in order to end their 
involvement in Yemen?
    Mr. Pollack. I think that what we have seen from the 
Saudis, especially since 2019, is that they probably would 
simply because they do not feel like they have any better 
alternative. But I think that they very much would regard it as 
their least bad option.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. And I would like to ask this question, 
but maybe the rest of you all could answer it as well. Can you 
speak to the human rights abuses committed by the Houthi 
rebels?
    Ms. Ledeen. I can start. I can talk about their pervasive 
use of child soldiers. That is an absolute disgrace and----
    Mr. Burchett. Did you say child tortures?
    Ms. Ledeen. Child soldiers.
    Mr. Burchett. Soldiers, OK. I'm sorry. I did not hear that 
right.
    Ms. Ledeen. That is a heavily documented phenomenon that if 
you are not familiar, I sincerely recommend looking into it. It 
has been a problem for quite a while. And in the wake of these 
recent attacks, there has actually been a surge of people 
sending their children, you know, to join the Houthis.
    And it is truly a humanitarian catastrophe when you 
consider the coming generation in Yemen and what they may be 
like, and what we might be dealing with, you know, in the next 
generation. They are already building that.
    So I think that is one point. Obviously, there is a 
complete breakdown in medical care. There is pervasive 
starvation. My colleagues here can talk about that, I think, in 
further detail.
    Mr. Burchett. Dr. Alterman?
    Mr. Alterman. There are issues of women's rights, LGBTQ 
rights as the gentleman from California talked about, basic 
rule of law. This is government of thugs. It resembles in many 
ways a place run by organized crime. And the misery of the 
people of Yemen is pervasive and continues every day.
    Mr. Burchett. All right. Women are just basically 
possessions, and gay folks are thrown off of buildings, that 
type of scenario, is that what you are telling me?
    Mr. Alterman. This is both a repressive government and a 
government that believes it is asserting traditional values, 
which is anathema to our understanding of individual freedoms 
and human rights.
    Mr. Burchett. Dr. Pollack?
    Mr. Pollack. I will just add to that, Congressman. It is 
worth recognizing that the Zaidis are a very important old 
community of Yemen. Before 1962, it was a Zaidi Imamate that 
ruled Yemen.
    But the Houthis are a fundamentalist element within the 
Zaidi community. And they are, again, oppressive, totalitarian 
in their behavior, fundamentalist in their outlook. And I do 
not think that we have a very good handle on even how many 
Zaidis support the Houthi rule.
    I think that there is--I will put this as considerable 
anecdotal information that suggests that there are plenty of 
Zaidis who look at the Houthis and say these are not the people 
we would want telling us how to live our lives.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. Thank you. I have gone over. I yield 
back, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your indulgence.
    Mr. Wilson. Hear, hear. Thank you very much, Congressman 
Burchett, all the way from Knox County, Tennessee.
    With this in mind, I would like to thank the witnesses for 
their valuable testimony and the members for their questions. 
The members of the subcommittee may have additional questions 
for the witnesses, and we will ask you to respond to these in 
writing.
    Pursuant to committee rules, all the members may have 5 
days to submit statements, questions and extraneous materials 
for the record, subject to length limitations.
    And I would also like to thank the committee staff for 
their dedication and, again, this is bipartisan. Congressman 
Connolly and I frequently work on issues together, remarkably 
enough. And so we can work together with a very capable staff 
of the Foreign Affairs Committee and of the subcommittee. 
Without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 3:25 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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