[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]








                           WHAT WE HAVE HERE 
                      IS A FAILURE TO COLLABORATE: 
                         REVIEW OF GAO'S ANNUAL 
                           DUPLICATION REPORT 

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

    SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS AND THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE

                                 of the

                         COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
                           AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             JUNE 13, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-116

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability





    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]





                       Available on: govinfo.gov 
                         oversight.house.gov or 
                             docs.house.gov 
                             
                                   _______
                                   
                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
                 
56-064 PDF                   WASHINGTON : 2024 
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
                             
               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman

Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking 
Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Michael Cloud, Texas                 Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Ro Khanna, California
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Katie Porter, California
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Cori Bush, Missouri
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Shontel Brown, Ohio
Byron Donalds, Florida               Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Robert Garcia, California
William Timmons, South Carolina      Maxwell Frost, Florida
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Greg Casar, Texas
Lisa McClain, Michigan               Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Dan Goldman, New York
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Nick Langworthy, New York            Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts
Eric Burlison, Missouri
Mike Waltz, Florida

                       Mark Marin, Staff Director
       Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
                      Bill Womack, Senior Advisor
                          Alex Rankin, Counsel
       Jennifer Kamara, Government Accountability Office Detailee
        Ellie McGowan, Staff Assistant and Administrative Clerk

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5074

                  Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director
                      Contact Number: 202-225-5051
                                 ------                                

    Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce

                     Pete Sessions, Texas, Chairman
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Kweisi Mfume, Maryland Ranking 
Clay Higgins, Louisiana                  Minority Member
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Byron Donalds, Florida                   Columbia
William Timmons, South Carolina      Maxwell Frost, Florida
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Greg Casar, Texas
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Robert Garcia, California
Eric Burlison, Missouri              Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Vacancy                              Jasmine Crockett, Texas
                                     Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                                                                   Page

Hearing held on June 13, 2024....................................     1

                               Witnesses

                              ----------                              

Mr. Gene L. Dodaro, Comptroller General, U.S. Government 
  Accountability Office
Oral Statement...................................................    10

Written opening statements and the statement for the witness are 
  available on the U.S. House of Representatives Document 
  Repository at: docs.house.gov.

                           Index of Documents

                              ----------                              

  * Report, General Accounting Office, IRS Audit Equity; 
  submitted by Rep. Mfume.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Dodaro; submitted by Rep. 
  Sessions.

Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.

 
                           WHAT WE HAVE HERE 
                      IS A FAILURE TO COLLABORATE: 
                         REVIEW OF GAO'S ANNUAL 
                           DUPLICATION REPORT 

                              ----------                              


                        Thursday, June 13, 2024

                   House of Representatives

               Committee on Oversight and Accountability

    Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce

                                           Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:34 a.m., in 
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Pete Sessions 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Sessions, Palmer, Biggs, Timmons, 
Burlison, Mfume, Norton, Frost, Lee of Pennsylvania, Crockett, 
and Tlaib.
    Mr. Sessions. The Subcommittee on Government Operations and 
the Federal Workforce will come to order, and I want to welcome 
everybody. I apologize for our slight delay today.
    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any 
time.
    I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening 
statement.
    I want to thank Mr. Dodaro for being here, his 
professionalism not only to see things that Mr. Mfume and I may 
thoughtfully articulate with him, we have presented to him, 
that we believe that is what we are here to do today, and we 
appreciate it.
    Today's hearing on the Government Accountability Office's 
2024 annual report on fragmentation, overlap, and duplication 
is an important process that certainly is gone through with the 
GAO.
    Perhaps the core responsibility of this Subcommittee is to 
ensure the business of government is conducted as efficiently 
as possible. This includes ensuring agencies provide excellence 
in customer care. It includes ensuring agencies have guardrails 
in place to prevent waste, fraud, and abuse, because, in fact, 
it is the taxpayer that is paying for the resources that this 
government operates.
    As we all know, not a new story, Federal programs have not 
always been good stewards of public funding, nor proper 
management, nor of the delivery of those services perhaps that 
were expected by a customer, but perhaps more importantly, by 
Congress in our intent as we laid out in law and in 
appropriations for this government to perform services on the 
American people's behalf.
    And to be fair, even when Federal agencies strive for 
excellence, there is always room for improvement. I spent 16 
years in the private sector, had over 700 employees around the 
state of Texas, and it is difficult to always meet through the 
expectation of a customer to have employees always meet those 
expectations. But, we will continue this conversation today and 
we will find out how we can get better.
    Oversight in this Congress has uncovered difficult ways 
Federal programs have fallen short in efforts to achieve their 
mission on behalf of the American taxpayer. And although Mr. 
Mfume and I look forward to ask you questions, we want to hear 
your perspective.
    We believe that there is an interest that your agency has, 
not only in the performance of taxpayer money, but also rather 
because we believe Federal employees too show up to work and 
want to gain confidence not just in the work that they do, but 
to perform them admirably on behalf of those who might be 
customers but are, perhaps more importantly, taxpayers.
    We have explored how to best measure the impact of 
widespread telework among Federal workers to ensure that 
telework policies are implemented in a way that benefits the 
American people.
    We are not sure we have heard back from agencies properly 
about how they want to manage that, how they want to look at 
the metrics, how they would develop esprit within their 
agencies, what things they have learned, the things which would 
allow us to know more about them. And this Federal Government 
has been lacking in its performance and communication with this 
Committee and Subcommittee.
    We have called on the Internal Revenue Service, the State 
Department, Social Security Administration, and other agencies 
directly at the top of those organizations on a bipartisan 
basis to improve customer service, reduce backlogs, and 
overcome longstanding challenges with modernization in their 
information systems and the technology that they use.
    We have examined the Federal response to natural disasters, 
including a field hearing in Florida where we saw firsthand 
recovery efforts from Hurricane Ian.
    I must say that we believe, because the agency reported 
back, that they felt like that we worked with them. They felt 
like our feedback and our attention enabled them to hone and 
focus on what they believed they needed to do, perhaps that 
they had not been directly attaching success to those projects 
the way they would have wanted.
    We have urged the U.S. Postal Service leadership to take 
necessary action to ensure Americans have a reliable Postal 
Service for years to come.
    Far be it from me, but we are still in those negotiations, 
and we will continue and not give up on behalf of not only the 
American people, but we will look at this on a bipartisan issue 
because, in fact, the Postal Service is important to us, 
whether you live in a city, whether you own a business, whether 
you are a senior citizen, or live in a rural area.
    So, I am proud to say our Subcommittee, us working 
together, has conducted, I think, our work in a fair and 
bipartisan way.
    We think you being here today is important. We think the 
issues that you will bring to bear today are not only about the 
bottom line of money but about the quality of service that your 
agency is expected to perform and deliver.
    In the last 14 years, actions to address GAO's 
recommendations in the report taken by Congress in Federal 
agencies--I did not make this number up it is reported--$667 
billion in financial benefits. There were just--again, this is 
a report that I fully accept--$71.3 billion in savings the past 
year.
    Does your agency make a difference? Yes, it does. Do other 
agencies within the Federal Government need to listen to you 
and continue that work? Yes, they do.
    And so today, as we spoke the other day, Mr. Dodaro, I 
believe this Subcommittee needs to do a better job of working 
with you, of us bringing agencies in and making sure they are 
achieving those things so that we can take the $71 billion and 
turn it into a hundred billion dollars later. We need to 
continue our efficiency.
    So, we are pleased today to have Gene L. Dodaro as a 
witness today, who is Comptroller General of the Government 
Accountability Office.
    We are also pleased to have members of his senior team that 
flank him who also can provide additional information as I am 
sure they will do in notes. But, it should be a pat on the back 
that you give them as not just Federal employees but people who 
are committed to the efficiency on behalf of the American 
people.
    So, with that said, I appreciate you being here, Gene, 
longtime friend, long-term fan that I am of yours.
    And I yield the time to the distinguished Ranking Member of 
the Subcommittee, Mr. Mfume, for any message he would like to 
give.
    The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Good morning, ladies and gentlemen.
    Mr. Dodaro, a special good morning to you. I want to thank 
you for your 51 years of service to the government. That is not 
just something passing in the night. It speaks to a great deal 
of dedication and a great deal of experience. And I want to 
commend you on the work over at GAO.
    As the chairman said, today's hearing really does focus on 
the GAO's 14th annual report on duplicative programs and 
opportunities for cost savings, allowing us hopefully to be 
able to zero in on the areas where we can work together to cut 
waste, to encourage greater collaboration, and to serve as 
better stewards of the American taxpayer dollars.
    In keeping with what you have just heard, I do want to say 
that while we have your written testimony and it will be part 
of the official record, please feel free as we go through this 
exercise to elaborate on those things that you think are very 
important that may not be captured in that testimony.
    Promoting greater efficiency and effectiveness of all of 
our Federal programs, agencies, offices, and initiatives 
governmentwide is what this Subcommittee is about. And we take 
great pride in being able to make sure that we dig as deep as 
we can to push the envelope to get the answers to make sure 
that the American taxpayer, the American public is served 
properly.
    Since the report's genesis in 2011, Congress and the 
agencies have fully or partially addressed almost 73 percent of 
all of the matters and recommendations. And, as Mr. Sessions 
just said, in that process there was identification of $667 
billion in financial benefits. That is no small number, and it 
is a great achievement.
    Congress and Federal agencies have achieved these financial 
benefits through implementing, as you know, GAO's 
recommendations to eradicate duplication and fragmentation of 
many of our Federal programs.
    Increased oversight of the Small Business Administration's 
Paycheck Protection Program, as an example, saved $13 billion 
alone. And this Committee was in the forefront of making sure 
that we were able to underscore and to try to find a way to 
capture those funds.
    As we all know, COVID forced 45 percent of those same small 
businesses across the country to close their doors.
    The PPP authorized the SBA to distribute a record $659 
billion to help small businesses across the country to be able 
to continue to pay their employees.
    However, as we all know, unscrupulous actors took full 
advantage of the crisis and went about the task of defrauding 
the program and defrauding the taxpayer.
    The Chairman and myself and members of this Committee 
fought back against those instances of fraud. My own efforts 
here in the House included two bills, H.R. 5427 and H.R. 4666, 
that I cosponsored and had passed through the House just last 
year.
    At the agency level, the SBA implemented an oversight plan, 
including an automated screening system, to identify 
potentially ineligible fraudulent applicants or recipients, 
leading to billions of dollars in cost savings, again, for the 
taxpayer.
    This year's report identified 112 new matters and 
recommendations in 42 new topic areas for Congress or Federal 
agencies to improve the efficiency and the effectiveness of our 
government.
    These recommendations span across departments and branches 
of the government, calling on both the Congress and agencies to 
rise to the occasion to take additional action toward ensuring 
that the government works better for all people and to do so as 
quickly as possible.
    As we consider methods to reduce unnecessary spending, I 
think it is important to point out that the House is voting 
this week to fund the Department of Defense with probably two 
different vehicles for the second week in a row. And I mention 
that because over the past 14 years GAO has identified $197 
billion in ways to cut costs at DOD.
    Notably, DOD still has the highest number of open 
duplication cases and the highest number of cost-saving 
recommendations that have not been fully implemented.
    The Department of Defense has a history of challenges with 
its financial management systems and business processes, 
internal controls, and financial reporting.
    And to that extent, sir, the GAO noted that DOD in 
particular should, ``improve oversight of its financial 
management systems allowing for more informed investment 
decisions which could result in cost savings and a clean audit 
opinion.''
    I understand, members of this Committee also understand, 
the importance of funding our military to protect democracy at 
home and abroad. However, we must really work to eliminate and 
not exacerbate duplicative efforts to ensure our Nation and our 
troops get the greatest value out of every dollar spent.
    So, Mr. Dodaro, this report is a critical service to the 
Congress. We appreciate it. It gives all of us a chance to 
develop a third eye and to look deeper into how we are doing 
what we do and to ask the deeper questions: are we doing it as 
best as we can?
    The GAO, traditionally, has been an important ally to the 
Subcommittee's work in increasing the effectiveness and the 
efficiency of the Federal Government.
    I look forward to hearing more of your testimony before the 
Subcommittee. I want to thank you again for your 51 years of 
service.
    And I would yield back to the Chairman.
    Mr. Sessions. I want to thank the gentleman, my colleague, 
Mr. Mfume, for not only his comments but also his professional 
viewpoint that permeates, as well as my viewpoint, it permeates 
his minority members who take time, who care very much about 
the success of our government.
    I am pleased today to introduce today's witness, 
Comptroller General Gene Dodaro, who brings more than 50 years 
of experience at the Government Accountability Office.
    As Comptroller General for the past 14 years, Mr. Dodaro 
has overseen the development of issues of hundreds of reports 
and testimoneys that are given to Congress every year. Efforts 
that ultimately help to identify mitigation and mitigate fraud, 
waste, and abuse in Federal programs. And today we will hear 
about duplication also.
    He has testified before Congress each of those years dozens 
of times to provide nonpartisan insights into some of the most 
pressing Federal oversight.
    I must suggest too--and Mr. Mfume believes this, because I 
do too--the balance, the devotion, and the dedication to 
service to this great Nation, Mr. Dodaro, is truly to be 
something that is a model that other Federal agencies and other 
Federal employees should be following, and we think you head 
that list.
    Thank you for being here.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses may--or the 
witness, as you are, Mr. Dodaro, please rise, stand, raise your 
right hand, and I will--we do have others that will be giving 
testimony. I have heard that, but I did not know for sure who 
they are.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are 
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God?
    Let the record reflect that the witnesses, each of them, 
have answered in the affirmative.
    I want to thank each of you for being here today. And I 
think the importance of what we are doing here today reminds me 
that the witnesses are necessary and needed because of the 
scope of what we intend to do today.
    Before we get started, I want to acknowledge--and, Mr. 
Mfume, I do not know if you have knowledge of students--but we 
have students that are attending today from Texas A&M 
University and Stephen F. Austin State University who are here 
to not only see how government works, but to see the importance 
of testimony of what information is given to Congress. And so, 
I want to thank those students who are here.
    Yes, sir.
    Mr. Mfume. Could they identify themselves by just holding 
up their hands?
    Mr. Sessions. Yes. It is these--I see one, two--or there we 
have got at least two of them--oh, somebody which I cannot 
see--three of them.
    Mr. Mfume. OK.
    Mr. Sessions. That may be a young man who is from Florida 
State University or perhaps Oregon--University of Oregon. I 
cannot tell. We have got about 20 interns that are in our 
office this month. And so, I think I was pretty close to being 
right.
    Mr. Mfume. Well, thank you and welcome. I have got my own 
intern here also.
    Mr. Session. Good.
    Mr. Mfume. So, part of the clan.
    Mr. Session. Good. Thank you very much.
    So, if I could please remind the witnesses that we have 
read your written statements, and they will appear in the full 
hearing record. Please limit your statement to 5 minutes.
    However, with that said, as I told Mr. Dodaro, I would like 
for him to complete not just his sentence, but his thought and 
thinking. So, we have a slow gavel that Mr. Mfume and I really 
enjoy. And so, we are going to recognize that.
    I now recognize Gene Dodaro for his opening statement. The 
gentleman is recognized.

                      STATEMENT OF GENE L. DODARO

                          COMPTROLLER GENERAL

                        UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, Ranking 
Member Mfume, members of the Subcommittee. I am very pleased to 
be here today to discuss our latest report.
    I want to also recognize--most of you have recognized 
interns here. We have 16 people from 16 different countries, 
the national audit offices that are at GAO for a 3-year program 
of development. So, they are in attendance here today as well.
    Mr. Sessions. So, they want to see exhibit A today. And 
that is what you will do. And I hope that the performance today 
on all of our positions are well covered because, you see, the 
American people need to have confidence that not only can we 
work and listen with each other, but we go to fix instead of to 
fight.
    Mr. Dodaro. I appreciate that.
    And thank you for your kind comments about GAO and the 
importance of our agency--we have one of the most dedicated and 
talented workforces in the world--and for the recognition of 
the achievement of over $667 billion so far.
    And, Mr. Mfume, you mentioned the 73 percent. That is of 
over 2,000 recommendations that we have made. So, it has had 
broad impact.
    And so, I am very proud to talk about this year's new 
areas. They are very important areas to public safety and 
national security.
    These deal with national disease surveillance programs, 
particularly for zoonotic diseases that can be transmitted to 
humans, which has caused about 75 percent of all new and 
emerging infectious diseases; to provide more comprehensive 
warnings for tsunamis; to provide additional bio surveillance 
so that we are aware of any particular new and emerging 
threats; to deal with the threats of wildfire smoke, which have 
grown in importance as the wildfires have become more prevalent 
over time.
    It deals with improvements to service member fatigue at 
DOD, which has led to deaths of many servicemembers and the 
destruction of much equipment as well. So, it has important 
security implications.
    It deals with background investigations, which we see as 
being duplicated when a person moves from one agency to 
another.
    It deals with better coordination to protect Federal 
research from threats of foreign actors.
    And so, all these recommendations are really designed to 
help improve the coordination and collaboration of many 
agencies that we see now have to work on some of these more 
difficult issues that need to be addressed. And it is important 
for economy and efficiency and effectiveness for greater 
collaboration among actors not only with the Federal Government 
level, but also in partnership with state and local, in some 
cases private sector entities that need to be involved in these 
areas.
    Now, the open recommendations that we have also are for 
cost savings and revenue enhancement. So, we have got a number 
of recommendations of things that could be done to save money.
    For example, in the Medicare program for management 
evaluation services, now if you go to a hospital, a doctor that 
is affiliated with a hospital, the government pays you more 
than if you go to a doctor in a private practice not affiliated 
with the hospital. If you equalized those payments and made 
them site neutral, CBO estimates that you would save $141 
billion over 10 years.
    Also, importantly, the FirstNet program, which is to 
support our first responders, will be out of authorization 
within the next couple years, so it needs to be reauthorized by 
Congress in order to make sure that they can collect the 
revenue necessary to fund the system.
    That is $15 billion that needs to be--could be accrued to 
the government to prevent the government from having to 
subsidize that process over time and have it user paid for.
    We have other recommendations in the Medicaid demonstration 
area to make that more budget neutral. If Congress could put 
those requirements in place, it could save money.
    The bottom line here is that there is tens of billions of 
dollars in additional funding that can come from implementing 
our new and open recommendations from our past work, in 
addition to making the government more effective and efficient 
to better serve the American people.
    So, I am proud to be here today to represent our work, and 
look forward to responding to your questions.
    Mr. Sessions. I thank the gentleman very much.
    You and I spoke on the phone in the last few days, and I 
told you that I think we in Congress should work closer with 
you, not just to hear back from you and read the reports and go 
to the agencies, but actually to engage people, to engage 
people of what we think are important issues.
    And while you talked about wildfire smoke and background 
checks and savings and Medicare savings, I think that we need 
to do a better job to look at these and specifically challenge 
these agencies and the heads of the agencies to achieve these 
things.
    And I know that from time to time there are hardships which 
are encountered, but I think it will take the Federal 
Government workers to be at work. I think they have got to come 
to work. And I think that this is a major issue that we in our 
Subcommittee have been dealing with of trying to work with 
someone who felt like they could make this stay-at-home model 
and working through telework. But I think that we are going to 
have to take on some of these issues.
    What are the two or three things that you can think of that 
if we decided you wanted us to do something that you would like 
to ask us to work on with you, specifically highlight them, 
stay after them, work with the agencies, make sure that on a 
bipartisan basis and bicameral basis, up to and including 
whoever is going to be the chosen Secretaries that will lead 
these agencies this next year?
    Mr. Dodaro. There are a number of issues that come to mind.
    No. 1, over the last 14 years that we have done this work 
on overlap, duplication, fragmentation, the statute requires us 
to just look at duplication. But we look at fragmentation and 
overlap as harbingers of potential duplication.
    But it also undermines the effectiveness of Federal action 
to serve the public effectively. And because more and more 
agencies need to be involved in solving some of these problems, 
there needs to be good collaboration.
    So, we published eight criteria that if you follow you can 
have effective collaboration. They are things like defining 
common outcomes, making clear leadership for the effort, 
clarifying roles and responsibilities, articulating the 
resources that you need, involving all the right parties, 
having written agreements, ensuring accountability.
    These are basic management tenets that if implemented 
successfully would make the government much more effective in 
dealing with these public safety issues and national security 
issues.
    And I would urge the Congress and would greatly appreciate 
working with you to enshrine these eight criteria in law and 
have every interagency committee that is established--many of 
them are established by Congress, but regardless of how they 
are established--to follow these eight criteria. If they do, 
they will have much more outcome over time.
    This is a common problem that we find year in and year out, 
and some agencies do better than others. And so that is No. 1.
    No. 2 is that every year I send a letter to every head of a 
department, major department and agency in the Federal 
Government, including independent regulators, and outlining 
open GAO recommendations.
    And I prioritize a subset of those recommendations that 
could have the biggest impact in improving their agency's 
operations.
    And those reports go to the Congress. They are also made 
public. But if we had followup on those reports by the 
Congress, that would be very effective.
    Also, I would recommend that Congress act on matters that 
we have put forth that are still open. There are 21 matters 
before the Congress that have the ability to save money. Twelve 
of them would save over a billion dollars, and the other 18 
would save hundreds of millions, if not millions of dollars.
    And so those I would be happy to provide a list to the 
Committee and would encourage action on those recommendations.
    Also, as I have worked with you in the past, Mr. Chairman, 
we have worked on the GAO High Risk List, which is a different 
series than the overlap and duplication, but that has 37 areas 
on there, and there are many common issues of both areas.
    So, that is another area that I would like to work with the 
Congress on, because those should be top of mind on 
congressional oversight agendas. And they have been used to 
help shape the President's management agendas going back many 
Presidents, over many administrations, since we have been 
having that program since 1990. That program has also saved 
about $675 billion in financial benefits to the taxpayer.
    So, these things focus on key areas important to our 
country, important to our citizens, and represent great 
opportunities for greater improvement.
    Mr. Sessions. The way I have looked at it in years past was 
we have a Federal Government that sees lots of missions and 
good ideas out there, and agency after agency participates in 
these things. But there is the duplication that you speak of, 
and that is really why you are where you are. That is why your 
agency is expected to be there.
    OK. I am going to take these up, and Mr. Mfume and I talked 
about what we are going to be doing when we get back in a week. 
We are going to be on break back home for work. But we are 
going to get back together and establish what we are going to 
do these final few months.
    But I think that that is a clear mandate for us to be 
involved in that. And I want to thank you for the clarity 
involved. And I consider what you said also a challenge. So, we 
are going to have to find out if we are up to that.
    Thank you very much.
    Mr. Mfume, you are recognized.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you very much again, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Dodaro, a couple of quick things in the amount of time 
that I have. I wanted to cover just a couple of issues that are 
of great importance to me and to the district that I represent.
    When GAO published last year's duplication report, I 
noticed that it recommended that the IRS in particular do more 
to improve efforts to audit high-income taxpayers and ensure 
that they were paying their fair share.
    And then, as you know, I saw the GAO report released last 
April, this past April, entitled ``Tax Enforcement: IRS 
Selection Processes for Returns Claiming Refundable Credits 
Could Better Address Equity.''
    So, it is this issue of equity that concerns me.
    Mr. Chairman, I would like to offer for entrance into the 
record that full report.
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection, that will be entered into 
the record.
    Mr. Mfume. And, according to the report Mr. Dodaro, Earned 
Income Tax Credit return audits conducted by the Wage and 
Investment Division of IRS included higher numbers of audits of 
Black EITC recipients, which strikes me as puzzling.
    And that stood out and still stands out, and for me it begs 
some sort of answer--and I have not seen it yet--from the IRS. 
But we will continue to push on that.
    That EITC was designed to boost the income of eligible low-
and moderate-income workers, particularly those who have 
children, and is the largest Federal anti-poverty program, 
serving approximately 26 million people.
    And as you know, audits conducted by the IRS often delay 
tax returns, harm lower-income families, harm all of us 
actually.
    So, I agree with the duplication report's findings and 
recommendations, and I recognize that IRS' acceptance of the 
six recommendations was a good first step, only the first step. 
But there is, in my opinion, a need to reduce, decrease 
significantly the algorithmic bias that exists in the dependent 
data base that they use.
    I will give you a case in point, and maybe I will ask you a 
question, because it seems to me that using that biometric 
system with built-in biases goes against equity and is almost 
punitive, particularly for darker-skinned individuals who the 
biometrics read differently and create a listing of things or 
concerns that really are not sufficient and have no real 
support.
    So, I have been concerned about that, and I remain 
concerned also that the very opposite of what we have charged 
the IRS to do in those six recommendations may be worsening the 
impact on African-American taxpayers, which I think is 
inherently wrong and incorrect.
    So, I would really commend your work in this area and 
encourage the GAO to continue to push even harder for 
agencies--in this case we are talking about the IRS--to come up 
with options to the biometric system that will allow people to 
be able to not run into these impediments.
    And we cannot be certain that the private sector is going 
to prioritize and vet these same concerns. I mean, that is not 
what they are driven by. They are driven by a lot of other 
things, not the least of which are concerns that relate back to 
equity and to race.
    As you continue your annual assessment of identifying 
additional opportunities for greater efficiency and 
effectiveness, can you tell the Committee briefly how we can 
work together to ensure that the technologies--because this is 
where we are with the algorithmic system and biometric biases--
how we can work together that those technologies are used in 
such a way to administer programs and services equitably?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, absolutely.
    First, with regard to the tax system, tax administration 
has been on our High-Risk List since 1990 because of a lot of 
issues associated with how we approach enforcement. Our system 
is based on voluntary compliance, but that means that people 
have to have faith that it is fair, it is equitable, and it 
deals with issues.
    And so, we have got a lot of recommendations on how IRS can 
better select, and the models that they use in order to 
determine who to audit can be done better, more effectively, 
and more fairly. And we will continue to press on that issue.
    Now, with regard to the technologies, I have established 
the Science, Technology Assessment and Analytics Group, tripled 
the size of it over the past few years. We have done work on 
facial recognition technologies, talking about the biases, 
particularly of people of color, and some limitations in the 
shortcomings of those programs.
    I am very concerned, as the Federal Government goes to 
implement artificial intelligence applications, that the 
quality of their information is suspect in many cases, not 
complete, not accurate, not reliable, and in some cases could 
have built-in biases in those systems.
    So, we are going to be looking at this issue very carefully 
because artificial intelligence, if we do not improve the data 
and make sure it is fair going into the systems, you are going 
to get bad outcomes faster. And it is not going to provide all 
of the benefits that it could provide unless we have the proper 
safeguards in place.
    So, we are working on that, and I am happy to talk about 
the different technologies and what could be done in those 
areas. We have hired a lot of scientists. So, I have got data 
scientists and others. And so, we are all over that issue, and 
I am happy to work with you.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you very much.
    Before I yield back, Login.gov, which both the Chairman and 
myself and members of this Committee have been overseeing for 
some time now, has in my opinion those same issues and 
challenges. And they become punitive to the extent that when 
people are denied because of a system that is not fail-safe, we 
create more of a problem.
    So, we are on the record with Login.gov because we think 
that there has to be more options available for them to do 
their job when it comes to the people they are serving.
    So, I know I have gone beyond my time.
    Mr. Dodaro. Well, I would just say, given the slow gavel, 
that we are doing work currently on Login.gov. And we are happy 
to share the scope of that work with both of you, your staff, 
and to provide the results of that effort.
    I share your concern. I think there has to be more options. 
There has to be better ways of identity verification to provide 
greater safeguards and assurance to the public that it is going 
to be done properly.
    And the government is going to be protected too, because 
the fraud during the pandemic programs was epic. We have 
estimated that, between 2018 and 2022, that losses to the 
Federal Government of fraud were between $233 billion to $521 
billion annually, depending on the risk level and the amount of 
funding in those areas.
    So, it is very important we do safeguards, but you cannot 
do it at the expense of fair treatment to all people.
    Mr. Mfume. I agree. And we have had a panel of inspector 
generals come before us to underscore how deeply that fraud 
went and to suggest on the record that it might take 8 or 9 
additional years before everybody who were the bad actors are 
caught and prosecuted. So, it is a long-term process.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. And even if we catch everybody, you are 
not going to recover the money. It would be less than 10 
percent by historical standards. So, we have to prevent fraud 
in the first place.
    We worked with the Congress in the past to pass the Fraud 
Reduction and Data Analytics Act in 2016 to put best practices 
for fraud prevention in place. So, the agencies, if they had 
acted quickly, would have been much better prepared before the 
pandemic.
    One of the things, for example, is to do a fraud risk 
assessment. The first fraud risk assessment SBA did, and based 
on this 2016 law, was in February 2022 after all the money had 
been spent.
    So, they should have been better prepared. And that is an 
area, that fraud prevention, that I think is another area that 
we could work on together to make sure agencies are putting in 
place the practices necessary to prevent it in the first place. 
It is the only way to safeguard taxpayer funds effectively.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much.
    Exactly to our point, you have got to stop this by 
identifying it and fixing it. It has got to be done.
    We are going to yield to the distinguished gentleman from 
South Carolina, Mr. Timmons. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you to our witness, Comptroller General Dodaro, 
for being here today.
    With our national debt quickly approaching $35 trillion, it 
really is past time to have serious conversations about 
government spending.
    I firmly believe our national debt is the greatest threat 
to national security, and Congress must address it now. We 
cannot continue to ignore our failing fiscal trajectory. The 
debt held by the public is expected to reach $45 trillion, or 
114 percent of GDP, by 2033, and the longer we wait, the harder 
it is going to be to fix. And doing nothing is simply not an 
option.
    We are here today to discuss GAO's annual duplication 
report and evaluate the effectiveness of our agencies' efforts 
to prevent waste and realize billions of dollars in cost 
savings for taxpayers.
    Two weeks ago, I questioned the Director of the Office of 
Personnel Management about the concerning issue of telework 
which started with the COVID-19 pandemic and is still 
continuing today.
    A great deal has been said about telework in Federal 
agencies, but most concerning to me is that we have yet to see 
any data regarding the supposed benefits of telework. And at 
this point it has been years since the Biden administration 
announced expanded telework was going to be the new norm.
    I asked the Director what evidence he had regarding the 
value of telework. More specifically, I asked if any data 
exists showing that widespread Federal telework is as effective 
and good for the taxpayer as in-person work.
    His response was the following, ``The work arrangements we 
have at OPM, which include telework, are consistent with the 
performance improvement that we are seeing from our agency.''
    I also asked the Director if OPM had reduced its costs as a 
result of reduced physical office space since many of its 
employees are continuing to work from home, but the answer was 
quite vague. The Director said, ``We have let go some leased 
space around the country, and we have more work to do to get to 
a steady state.''
    So, if we are going to have telework, I feel like we should 
have some cost savings in leased space.
    The Federal Office Space Utilization segment of the 
duplication report shows that the Federal Government owns over 
460 million square feet of office space that costs billions of 
dollars annually to operate and maintain.
    Is that correct, Mr. Dodaro?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you.
    In a 2023 sample survey, GAO found that 17 of 24 agencies 
overseen by the council used an estimated average of 25 percent 
or less of their headquarters buildings' capacity--25 percent 
or less of the 460 million square feet.
    And agencies at the higher end of the range used only an 
estimated 40 to 49 percent of the capacity of their 
headquarters during that timeframe.
    So, my question is this. How is it that a significant 
percentage of agency employees are working from home and have 
been doing so since the pandemic and yet agencies like OPM have 
only let go of some, if any, leased space?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I will ask Dave Marroni to elaborate, 
Congressman Timmons.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you.
    Mr. Dodaro. It is good to see you.
    Mr. Timmons. Great to see you.
    Mr. Dodaro. But I would say one thing first, is that we 
have had real property management of the Federal Government on 
our High-risk List since 2007. There was unused Federal 
property before the pandemic, and the Federal Government was 
doing a very poor job of disposing of that property, and there 
should have been much more cost savings.
    And I agree with you, if you are going to move in this 
direction, you can prove telework is effective for your agency 
and you focus on the right outcomes, productivity, and equality 
of the work. You cannot have extra space. You should be able to 
get rid of it.
    Dave.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you.
    Mr. Marroni. And to your point, Congressman, that is 
certainly a concern that we have looked at in terms of the low 
utilization of Federal office space in post-pandemic.
    As the Comptroller General noted, this is a longstanding 
problem. But it has gotten considerably worse with increases in 
telework.
    And so, our recommendation to agencies has been for OMB, in 
coordination with the Federal Real Property Council, which is 
the senior real property officials across the government, to 
develop benchmarks for determining how much space they are 
utilizing and then move forward to get rid of that space that 
they do not need.
    It has significant financial costs to hold on to unneeded 
space, obviously, but also environmental costs. You are using 
energy and water for those buildings regardless if someone is 
at their desk or not.
    It has opportunity costs. Agencies are spending money on 
space they do not need. That means that is not money for their 
mission.
    It also means the local communities where those buildings 
are are not able to get the most out of that area either.
    So, definitely a concern. The agencies do need to move 
forward on making decisions about their space.
    Mr. Timmons. I appreciate that. I think we can get a lot 
more aggressive on this. And even here in the Capitol, the cost 
of office space is enormous.
    So, as we consider relocating agencies and going to more 
telework, this is something that is a very simple cost savings 
that would be enormous. I mean, we are talking billions of 
dollars a year, and, again, $35 trillion in debt, $2 trillion 
deficit, and we are spending--or we are increasing our debt by 
a trillion dollars every hundred days.
    These are all, like, major challenges that we have to face, 
and I think that this is a really good space, if indeed we are 
stuck with telework, which I do not particularly like. But if 
that is the direction that these agencies are going to go, at 
the very least let us save some taxpayer dollars.
    Mr. Dodaro. Absolutely.
    Mr. Timmons. Great.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.
    The gentlewoman, Ms. Lee, is recognized.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And I would also like to thank Mr. Dodaro for coming to 
speak on the important work of GAO's duplication report.
    Part of the Republican playbook is to slash funding to 
government agencies and then cry foul when they cannot function 
properly, to continue shorting their corporate donors of any 
oversight or responsibility.
    But we know that the only way to truly deliver for the 
American people is to fully and properly invest in the programs 
meant to serve them. This includes investment in the right 
people, processes, and technologies.
    Mr. Dodaro, GAO is a great example of an agency where more 
investment in your people and resources yields better results 
for the American people, correct?
    Mr. Dodaro. That is right.
    Ms. Lee. This great return on taxpayer investment is 
especially true when it comes to the IRS. The nonpartisan 
Congressional Budget Office found that an $80 billion 
investment in the IRS would increase Federal revenue by $200 
billion over 10 years.
    Despite these findings, just last week my Republican 
colleagues announced that they want to slash IRS funding 
further and cut the Direct File program, a wildly successful 
pilot that makes filing taxes easier for thousands of 
Americans.
    We know that cutting this program does not benefit 
taxpayers, but is a gift to tax-filing services like TurboTax 
that spends millions lobbying them. Just this tax season, that 
limited Direct File program saw 140,000 taxpayers claim more 
than $90 million in refunds and save an estimated $5.6 million 
in filing costs. Imagine the impacts on a nationwide scale.
    Republicans specifically seek to gut the IRS' enforcement 
budget. So, to summarize, they want to both make it harder for 
everyday Americans to comply with tax law and make it easier 
for the wealthiest Americans to get away with refusing to pay 
their fair share.
    GAO's work really highlights the way resources tie with 
outcomes, especially at the IRS. In May 2022, GAO found that 
the IRS has significantly reduced audits of individuals who 
report higher amounts of income. So, the Treasury announced a 
goal to increase audits of high-income and high-wealth earners.
    Mr. Dodaro, is the IRS on track to meet that goal?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, yes, they are. It is 8 percent. And, yes, 
they are. But we think they can do a better job at who they 
select and how they train their people up to be more effective.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you.
    Earlier this year, GAO recommended that the IRS develop 
plans to evaluate how they select which tax returns to audit.
    How could improving these selection criteria help the IRS 
enforce our Nation's tax laws more effectively and equitably?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. What we find for taxpayers that are very 
wealthy, high-income people, also for large partnerships, 
complex partnerships, that many of the audits they do do not 
result in any increase in revenue, which means that they are 
targeting compliant taxpayers. So, it is not benefiting the 
government in additional revenue and burdening those taxpayers.
    So, we think the models could be done better to better 
target where we are likely to see noncompliance and, therefore, 
additional revenues appropriately to the current tax laws that 
come to the government. And there is a huge tax gap.
    Ms. Lee. I was going to ask, well, are we likely to see 
more noncompliance, but----
    Mr. Dodaro. No, I do not think so. I think if you target it 
properly, you will see better compliance.
    Ms. Lee. So, just to sum this up, for decades the IRS has 
disproportionately audited low-income people because those 
audits are quick and easy for them.
    Filing taxes has also just been a nightmare for most folks. 
How many people have hit April, spent the money for filing 
help, and then been nailed with an unexpected tax bill? Or, 
conversely, how many rely on that tax refund to come through 
and be accurate?
    Now we are finally seeing the IRS start to go after the 
wealthy tax cheats, the ones who are intentionally hiding their 
money, instead of the regular people who are making mistakes. 
And we are finally seeing the start of a way to make filing 
taxes less stressful and cost less money.
    But without the continued resources, talent, and 
technologies to complete these goals, they are just going to 
keep going after regular people, and that just is not right or 
fair.
    I thank you. And I have no further comment, unless you do 
with the 38 seconds that we have.
    Mr. Dodaro. This is an area, as I mentioned tax 
administration, that we focused on as a high-risk area since 
1990. It is still on the list. There is much more that could be 
done, that IRS could use its resources more effectively, and we 
could have a more fair and equitable and efficient tax system.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you. We would all like to see that.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time.
    Mr. Frost is recognized.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    So, GAO investigated several national security issues at 
the Department of Defense and made important information-
sharing and operational efficiency recommendations to the 
Department.
    The Pentagon frequently conducts simulations of conflicts 
or scenarios, so-called war games, that play at the dynamics of 
potential conflicts across the entire world.
    These exercises can yield insights that feed future 
strategies and policies for evaluating potential threats and 
adversaries. Simulations inform DOD's decision about warfare 
concepts, capabilities, and plans, and each branch hosts their 
own war games as well as participating in simulations as well.
    So, Mr. Dodaro, what would GAO recommend that the 
Department of Defense do differently to make sure that these 
exercises have a greater benefit to national security?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. The Department established a central 
repository in 2015 to collect all this information to help make 
the future plans more effective and to also then learn from the 
results and share the results across the Department.
    But it is very fragmented. Nobody is in charge. So, we 
recommend you put somebody in charge of the program, to lead it 
over time, to make it more effective, and that you have better 
people--I mean, better reporting of information into a central 
data base that would be complete and reliable and allow more 
effective treatment.
    The Department agreed with our recommendation and has 
commissioned a study to figure out how best to do this.
    The Department, as you mentioned, when we were charged with 
looking at overlap, duplication, fragmentation, DOD is kind of 
like the poster child for this area because they are so large 
and decentralized, and so there are a lot of opportunities.
    And it is because they are committed to their mission, but 
everybody is enthusiastic and they start off in launching 
trying to improve these areas in good faith, but they do not 
have central management leadership as much as they need.
    Mr. Frost. Yes. I mean, on the topic of the duplication 
report, this Subcommittee held a hearing on examining the root 
causes of DOD's financial statements on why it cannot be 
audited.
    What does GAO suggest DOD do to help make sure that it 
works toward a successful audit?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. First, I might say that they got a clean 
opinion this year for the Marine Corps for the first time, so I 
was encouraged by that. They have a good plan. But they need to 
fix the problems that their independent auditors identify more 
promptly. They are not really fixing them as much as possible.
    They also need to get the better control----
    Mr. Frost. Why do you think they are not fixing as much?
    Mr. Dodaro. Well, it is a matter of resources to them. I 
mean, there is a lot of benefits that they have received from 
this thing.
    Mr. Frost. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro. And the auditors keep finding, like, hundreds 
of problems, so that the number keeps growing, but the 
percentage of them fixing them is stuck at around 20-some 
percent of the corrective action. So, they need to move faster.
    But most of the recommendations, Congressman Frost, deal 
with their financial systems. Their systems are not designed 
properly. They have a process now that they put in place to 
make sure that they are certified, that they meet all the 
requirements, and they are going to be auditable.
    But compliance with those requirements is lacking. And so, 
we have recommended that they better stick with the guidelines 
they have in place to certify these systems, not only new ones, 
ones that are in development, but existing systems.
    So, we are waiting for them to react to our recommendations 
there. They said they agreed, but we will see what they do to 
implement them.
    But the system fixes are at the root cause of many of these 
corrective actions, and that is why you do not see greater 
progress.
    Mr. Frost. Yes, yes. And the reasoning of resources, I do 
not know. I do not quite buy it as we are nearing an almost $1 
trillion defense budget; one I would say is quite inflated.
    But last thing really quick. GAO also noted fragmentation 
in DOD research projects on service member fatigue. The report 
specifically mentions the repeated use of wearable devices, 
such as smartwatches and heart monitors, to identify and 
mitigate the root causes of service member fatigue. DOD has 
conducted nearly 50 different studies on this.
    What did GAO recommend that DOD change when it comes to 
studying the fatigue of servicemembers?
    Mr. Dodaro. I will ask Cathy Berrick to do it. She is our 
expert in defense capabilities and management.
    Ms. Berrick. Yes, thank you.
    Yes, service member fatigue is really a significant issue 
at DOD. By DOD's own studies of their service members, two-
thirds are reporting getting 6 or fewer hours of sleep a night. 
So, this is a readiness issue. It is a safety issue. It is a 
health issue.
    So, there is a lot of research----
    Mr. Frost. And a workplace issue.
    Ms. Berrick. And a workplace issue, exactly.
    There is a lot of research going on in the Department both 
monitoring service members' sleep, but also looking at things 
like environmental factors, how can we increase the quality of 
sleep, as well as the health impacts of sleep.
    We identified 130 research projects, and as you mentioned, 
48 in particular were related to wearable technologies that 
track service members' sleep.
    These projects were very fragmented. Some of them were 
looking at the exact same technologies, the exact same models, 
and there was no coordination within the Department to partner 
on some of this research. And as you can imagine, lots of 
different offices within DOD are doing this.
    We looked at cost information for 29 of these 48 projects. 
It was $25 million. DOD is planning on investing hundreds of 
millions, million more in this area. The Defense Health Agency, 
for example, is going to let a contract for $350 million to 
look at six wearable technologies.
    So, there is a lot of opportunity for potential 
efficiencies. If DOD does not procure one of these 
technologies, it is tens of thousands in savings and 
potentially hundreds of millions.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you so much.
    I yield back. And thank you to the Chair for allowing the 
overage.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much.
    The gentlewoman, Ms. Tlaib, is recognized.
    Ms. Tlaib. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Thank you so much for being here.
    One of the areas--I know there is a lot of duplication in 
regard to, like, for instance, with even rural housing with 
HUD. It tends to overlap because Department of Ag is mostly 
present in some of our rural communities.
    But the one area that I know my residents were excited 
about and hearing in regard to the Justice40 Initiative, and I 
want to kind of try to focus on that.
    We had started a ``We Have a Right to Breathe'' campaign in 
my district. We have been fighting really just at the front 
lines about clean water and the importance of that. And so, I 
know Justice40 involves tens of billions of dollars fragmented 
across, I think, 500 Federal agencies.
    And so, could you speak a little bit about some of the 
improvements that GAO has already seen and what you would like 
to see going forward? Because for many of my residents, they 
will hear these--you know, they will see the press releases, 
they will see the announcements, but implementation matters so 
much to them.
    Can you talk a little bit about that?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, I would be happy to.
    You are right, there are 500 programs, about 19 different 
agencies. It has been coordinated out of the Executive Office 
of the President. The Council for Environmental Quality, OMB, 
and the Climate Policy Office are all coordinating it.
    So, they have developed some guidance initially and reached 
out and tried to get some input. So, that was a good first 
step. But the guidance needs to be more----
    Ms. Tlaib. Is that--I am sorry. Is that from that January 
2024 report that you all put out?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Ms. Tlaib. Yes. OK. I saw that.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. And we have made some recommendations in 
that report. For example, there is another group in the White 
House, the Environmental Justice Interagency Council, and they 
were not using that group as effectively as we think they could 
use that group, so we asked for greater coordination there.
    And then they have recently issued some additional guidance 
which would, if effectively implemented, follow our 
recommendations in the GAO reports and also institute this 
collaboration criteria I mentioned earlier. We have eight 
criteria that, if effectively followed, will ensure better 
outcomes in the programs.
    And specifically, as it relates to Justice40, what outcomes 
do they want to achieve? How are they going to establish 
performance measures and track progress and report and provide 
information on what benefits have accrued as a result of the 
initiative and have greater transparency so that the Congress 
and the public and your constituents can see what has happened 
as a result of the initiative?
    It is very significant because about 40 percent of the 
money being spent in these areas is to go to disadvantaged 
communities.
    Ms. Tlaib. And even in your report, even with your 
guidelines, which I appreciate them being proactive, I mean, 
they are using the right language. It is the same kind of 
language we have been using for quite a long time, even before 
the Flint crisis.
    But, again, going back to implementation matters, is there 
anything that we should be doing as Congress Members in regard 
to that, because, of course, 40 percent, right, has to go.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Ms. Tlaib. I am just not seeing the implementation on the 
ground, if that makes any sense.
    Mr. Dodaro. I understand.
    Ms. Tlaib. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes. No, we are going to follow 
implementation.
    I will ask Mr. Gaffigan, who is our managing director in 
this area, to talk about what work we have underway. We have a 
lot of work underway in the Justice40 area.
    Mr. Gaffigan. Yes. Representative, we are following up on 
the implementation. We are going to follow the money.
    One of the key challenges with it is identifying the 
disadvantaged communities and how to target these 500 programs. 
Also, making sure that barriers for communities' access to 
these programs are dealt with and addressed. So, we are going 
to followup on that.
    And we are also sort of going to look at this scorecard, 
which was sort of to track where the money was going, what the 
results are. So, we have made a lot of recommendations to set 
these things up, and now we are going to follow through. And 
that work is being done for this Committee.
    Ms. Tlaib. Pay attention to the Technical Assistance 
Centers.
    Mr. Gaffigan. Yes.
    Ms. Tlaib. Because that is what our frontline community-
based organizations that have been doing environmental justice 
work has been told. Go to the Technical Assistance Centers that 
are assigned to your region. For Region 5, we have two, and we 
have been reaching out. They just now finally, I think, got 
some sort of guidance, but yet my residents are like, where do 
we apply? Is somebody going to help us write the grant? How do 
we get this money to the people?
    I mean, it is a great title. It is great words being used. 
Again, please followup with my office, and I would love to be a 
partner in making sure, again, that it is doing what it is 
supposed to be doing.
    Mr. Gaffigan. Absolutely. We plan to be out there kicking 
the tires. We have also addressed these issues when it comes to 
Tribal Nations and their access to the things. So, that is on 
our radar, and we are doing work diving in.
    Ms. Tlaib. Thank you. I yield.
    Mr. Dodaro. We will work with your office. You will give us 
a good litmus test to ensure we are getting the real--the 
ground truth.
    Ms. Tlaib. I appreciate that. Thank you.
    Mr. Dodaro. Sure. Sure. Happy to do so.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time.
    The distinguished gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Biggs, is 
recognized.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding 
this hearing.
    Mr. Dodaro, it is good to see you again. Thanks for being 
here. I appreciate your work and your testimony today and your 
report that you provided to us.
    One of the open topic areas discussed in your written 
testimony is the need for the Department of Education to obtain 
data to verify income information for borrowers reporting zero 
income when applying for income-driven repayment plans for 
Federal student loans.
    Did you make any specific recommendations? And please tell 
us about potential for implementation of those recommendations.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes. Thank you for that. That is an 
important question.
    When we first looked at this issue, we found over 95,000 
plans--that was over 10 percent of the whole plans--reported 
zero income, and Education was taking the self-certification of 
the people and not verifying it in any way. So, we thought you 
need to verify that to make sure. We saw what self-
certification did during the pandemic, and it did not work out 
so well. And so, it is not a good technique. And so, we 
recommended they do something.
    Now, Congress has given them now the authority to use tax 
data, but the applicant for the income-driven repayment program 
has to allow their data to be accessed by IRS and reported to 
the Education Department. And, in the efforts to take 
applications for further plans, you know--because some people 
change their plans or apply for new ones--about 70 percent. A 
little over 70 percent of the people allowed Education to 
access their tax data. The other ones did not.
    So, the question is, how is Education now going to use the 
other information, which could be commercial sources or it 
could be the new hire data base that is collected by HHS that 
collects current wage data. It is used for child enforcement 
purposes, but that is what we used when we checked that data 
base against the Education data base.
    So, Education has not made a decision yet about what they 
are going to do to verify those that do not have the IRS 
compliance. So, I am very concerned. They need to make sure 
they have something in place to do this.
    Mr. Biggs. Do they have a deadline before they need to come 
up with how they are going to actually implement for the other 
30 percent?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I will check on whether they have a 
deadline or not, but they should have one before they start the 
program again. But they have missed a lot of deadlines.
    Like, we are looking at now at the Free Application For 
Student Loan Aid, the FAFSA program, all the problems they had, 
what happened there, and we are trying to get all the data out 
of them. You know, this income-driven repayment program, if 
they implement the recommendations successfully, CBO--or the 
Joint Committee on Taxation or CBO--I forget which one--have 
estimated it could save $2 billion. So, it is very important. I 
will followup----
    Mr. Biggs. $2 billion over time?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, over time.
    Mr. Biggs. OK.
    Mr. Dodaro. So, we will followup with them, and I will let 
you know on the timeframe. If they do not have one, I will 
recommend they establish one, obviously.
    Mr. Biggs. Very good. And you anticipated--one of my 
questions was what kind of savings do you anticipate?
    So, since GAO has been conducting an annual duplication 
report in 2011, your agency has made over 2,000 recommendations 
to Federal agencies and to Congress on how to reduce or 
eliminate duplication and overlap in Federal programs, and the 
execution of those recommendations has resulted in $667.5 
billion in savings.
    I commend you for that, but I would just say, it is not 
near enough. Why do I say that? Because, from 2011 to where we 
sit today, our deficit has grown--or excuse me--our national 
debt has grown by $25 trillion, and we maintain a consistent 
structural deficit in excess of $2 trillion.
    And so, we need you to find these programs and weed them 
out and help us turn our woeful budget system around. The rest 
of it belongs to us. We have got to take care of it. And that 
is across both parties. It is not one party or another. Both 
parties are to blame there.
    And so, I want to turn to the report more broadly. You 
identified 112 recommendations and matters in 42 topic areas in 
the 2024 duplication report. What are the common themes and 
threads among programs with opportunities for cost savings and 
revenue enhancement?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Some of the most common areas is in the 
overlap and duplication, fragmentation, and not following best 
practices for collaboration. And I mentioned earlier in the 
Chairman's questioning, I think Congress should legislate those 
eight criteria so that agencies that have interagency counsels 
can work on it.
    In the other areas, in cost savings and revenue 
enhancements, there are a number of recommendations at IRS to 
better focus their enforcement efforts, and in that area, also, 
we have recommendations to the Congress. Like, for example, in 
the past, we recommended that the Congress accelerate the date 
for W-2s to be provided to IRS. Before, employees had to get 
them in January--by the end of January--but IRS did not get 
them and Social Security until April. So, a lot of people were 
filing fake tax returns, and there was a lot of identity theft 
going on. So, Congress expedited the reporting of the wage 
data. Now, it saved $7 billion from fraudulent tax payments.
    We have other recommendations to the Congress. To your 
point, one of the big cost drivers in the Federal debt is 
healthcare. We have got recommendations if you equalize the 
payments for Medicare, for people going to doctors' offices 
affiliated with hospitals to what you do in the private 
practice. Right now, we pay the hospitals more--affiliated with 
the hospital. You can save 141 billion over 10 years in 
Medicare.
    We have got other recommendations to save hundreds of 
millions in Medicaid. I think the Medicaid program needs a lot 
more oversight and attention. Both of these programs--Medicare 
and Medicaid--last year reported collectively over $100 billion 
in improper payments, and so we have got recommendations to 
address those issues.
    So, we are trying to target our recommendations to some of 
the major spending areas in the government, particularly the 
healthcare area, and to deal with the tax gap issue by better--
you know, we have a lot of revenue that should be coming into 
the government. The latest estimate extrapolated for 2014 to 
2016 was $428 billion a year, but IRS estimates that the 
current tax gap between taxes owed and taxes collected is over 
$600 billion.
    We also have a lot of money going out the door that should 
not go out the door in improper payments and fraud. We 
estimated that--or the government agencies reported--over $236 
billion in improper payments for 2023, and that is not 
everything. There is a lot of programs that are not reporting 
payments.
    Mr. Biggs. I find this fascinating, but my time is way 
expired. So, Mr. Dodaro, good to see you again. Thanks for your 
testimony.
    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you.
    Mr. Biggs. I will yield back, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for your 
indulgence.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much.
    If the gentleman would know that I have told this 
Committee--Subcommittee that we are going to have a slow gavel. 
The purpose of this hearing is to get information out, not to 
time it at 5 minutes or 5 minutes and 1 second.
    Mr. Biggs. Then I would like some time back.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much. The gentleman yields 
back.
    At this time, the gentlewoman from Dallas, Texas, Ms. 
Crockett, is recognized.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and good 
morning, almost afternoon to you.
    In this Committee, we are charged with this vast task of 
trying to make sure that we are making the Federal Government 
more accountable and more efficient and more cost-effective for 
the American people. And reading through this new report, I am 
struck by just how many ways GAO has said that Congress can 
lead this charge.
    So, my first question to you is, when GAO issues a report, 
it is common for the agency to include a section that talks 
about matters for congressional consideration. What exactly 
does that mean?
    Mr. Dodaro. The matters for congressional consideration 
mean recommendations we are making to the Congress to act as 
distinct from recommendations we are making to the departments 
and agencies to act. We do that in deference to Congress' 
constitutional responsibilities.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much.
    And how many matters for congressional consideration are in 
the latest duplication report?
    Mr. Dodaro. In the latest one--I will get you the number 
here--but we have--we have made, over time, I think, 240 of 
those matters for congressional recommendations. So, there are 
fewer than to the agencies, but the implementation rate has 
been a little better with the agencies than the matters for the 
Congress.
    Most of the money you have heard mentioned, $667 billion 
that we have saved the government by implementing our 
recommendations, have come from actions the Congress has taken.
    Ms. Crockett. OK. If I said that the number was around 112, 
would you have any reason to disagree?
    Mr. Dodaro. Well, there are 112 recommendations in the 
latest report. Not all are matters.
    Ms. Crockett. Gotcha. OK. That makes sense.
    Can you briefly walk us through a few of these matters for 
congressional consideration?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Sure. One I was just talking about, which 
is to equalize the Medicare payments. If an individual needs to 
have an evaluation done by a doctor and you go to one that is 
affiliated with a hospital, Medicare pays you more than if you 
go to somebody who is in private practice. CBO estimates that 
that could save the government $141 billion over 10 years.
    We also have an open recommendation that Congress 
reauthorize FirstNet, which is the emergency response network 
for first responders. Very important. And also, Congress needs 
to give them additional authority to collect revenues from 
users of that system. That could save $15 billion over time.
    We have 12 matters that--another one is in Medicaid. A lot 
of demonstrations are giving states more flexibility, but it is 
supposed to be budget neutral. They can try new things, but it 
should not cost more money. We found that that is not the case. 
It always costs more money. And you could save, you know, 
billions more in there.
    And we have got other ones on equalizing the payments 
between, for example, Medicare fee-for-service and Medicare 
Advantage. They are true up there because you do not have--one 
is on a capitated basis, the Medicare Advantage, and the other 
one is on fee-for-services.
    And so, at the end of the year, they look at beneficiary 
characteristics, and they end up making an adjustment to the 
payments, but by not using the most recent information and 
better characteristics of the beneficiaries under Medicare 
Advantage, we are overpaying, probably, to that area.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
    Ms. Crockett. Another thing that I would like to ask you 
about is, can you tell us how many of the matters that the GAO 
has given to Congress that are still open? I know you kind of 
laid out some, but----
    Mr. Dodaro. OK. Since 2011, we have made 140 matters as 
this work to the Congress. Seventy-six are open.
    Ms. Crockett. OK. So, approximately a little more than half 
are still open?
    Mr. Dodaro. That is correct.
    Ms. Crockett. OK. And of those matters----
    Mr. Dodaro. Now, I would say--just let me add.
    Ms. Crockett. OK.
    Mr. Dodaro. Of those that are open, about 40 percent have 
been introduced in legislation----
    Ms. Crockett. OK.
    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. In the last Congress or this 
Congress. So, there are some efforts being made by different 
parts of the Congress to implement those matters, but they have 
not been pushed across the goal line yet.
    Ms. Crockett. OK. It looks like I am running out of time. I 
am actually out of time. But thank you so much. I appreciate 
you.
    And I will yield.
    Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time.
    And now I will defer to the distinguished gentleman, the 
Chairman of the Republican Policy Committee, Chairman Palmer.
    Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I want to stay on that theme of Ms. Crockett. What percent 
of--I want to clarify again what percent of GAO recommendations 
are not implemented.
    Mr. Dodaro. Well, there are two sets of numbers. If you 
talk about all our work and all our reports, not just this one 
we are testifying on----
    Mr. Palmer. Well, you do not work for no good reason, so I 
would assume that 100 percent should be implemented. So, what 
percent----
    Mr. Dodaro. Seventy-five. On average, 75 percent of our 
recommendations. That is pretty steady over time.
    Mr. Palmer. They are or are not?
    Mr. Dodaro. They are. They are implemented.
    Mr. Palmer. OK. So, a quarter are not?
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Mr. Palmer. But I would assume that the other 25 percent 
would result in savings, more efficiency in the operation of 
the Federal Government agencies, and they should be 
implemented?
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Mr. Palmer. Some of these recommendations that you have 
made, from the past conversations you and I have had, have been 
open for a long time. Is that correct?
    Mr. Dodaro. Some of them, yes.
    Mr. Palmer. Yes. What can be done to ensure that GAO's 
recommendations are implemented?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. We just issued this week a report listing 
every open matter that we have suggested to the Congress along 
with what cost savings could occur if the Congress implemented 
our recommendations.
    So, we have been asked by the Congress to address this 
issue. Give us in one report all your open matters that you 
have recommended to Congress. And it just came out a few days 
ago. Of there, we have 21 matters open that could save over a 
billion dollars--or 20 of them--12 of them could be over a 
billion dollars. The other ones are millions or hundreds of 
millions. I would be happy to submit that report for the record 
here.
    Mr. Palmer. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think we could help on 
the implementation side, obviously, with legislation but also 
with oversight because I do think it is incumbent upon agencies 
to act on these recommendations, and the history of GAO's 
recommendations have pretty well documented some substantial 
savings to the Federal Government.
    A couple things I want to ask about. You have made some 
recommendations on disposable radioactive sources or you have 
looked into that. Have you made recommendations on disposable 
radioactive sources?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes.
    Mr. Palmer. Have they been acted on?
    Mr. Dodaro. Not yet.
    Mr. Palmer. How about safeguarding--now, this is something 
I think is extremely important--safeguarding federally funded 
research from foreign threats?
    Mr. Dodaro. I do not believe they are fully implemented 
yet.
    Mr. Palmer. Mr. Chairman, I think that the failure to 
safeguard research, federally funded research, and from my 
perspective, any domestic research that impacts our national 
security needs to be--those recommendations need to be fully 
acted on.
    Mr. Dodaro. I do not think, Congressman Palmer, those sets 
of particular recommendations will be implemented without 
congressional attention and action.
    Mr. Palmer. You think they will be?
    Mr. Dodaro. They will not be.
    Mr. Palmer. They will not be.
    Mr. Dodaro. They will not be fully implemented. That is my 
opinion.
    Mr. Palmer. Mr. Chairman, I think we need to make this a 
priority.
    And I know it is going to shock you that I am going to ask 
about improper payments because we spent years working on this, 
but you were talking about duplications. In the case of 
duplication, is that not also a problem in terms of improper 
payments?
    Mr. Dodaro. Well, it could be depending upon--it does not 
really fit the definition that we have, but we have--it fits--
in addition to overlap and duplication, we include cost savings 
and revenue enhancement. So, the cost savings and improper 
payments fit within that category.
    Mr. Palmer. And you say if we can eliminate some additional 
duplications, it would save another $70-plus billion?
    Mr. Dodaro. Well, no. We said that that was what was saved 
from last year's report to this year. So, that is in the bank 
already. There are tens of billions of dollars that could be 
implemented.
    We have a report coming out soon that has a simulation if 
all of GAO's open recommendations are implemented that have 
financial benefits, and a lot of our recommendations that are 
to improve the economy and efficiency cannot be measured. 
Improving public safety, for example. You would save up to $180 
billion.
    Mr. Palmer. We have had this discussion in the past as 
well--in regard to improper payments, and I think it would 
apply to duplications--and that is the failure of coordination 
and, in some cases, communication between Federal agencies and 
between Federal and state agencies.
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Mr. Palmer. And I think, when we first started this 
discussion, one of the big issues that we identified was 
antiquated data systems.
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Mr. Palmer. How much of a problem is that now? Does that 
persist?
    Mr. Dodaro. It is still a problem and an impediment. It is 
not the only one, but it is definitely one. And I think, for 
example, there is much more attention that the Congress ought 
to be paid to the Medicaid program.
    Mr. Palmer. Right.
    Mr. Dodaro. The Medicaid program is one of the fastest 
growing programs. Each state is a little bit different.
    The other area of antiquated programs that the Congress 
really ought to focus on as well is unemployment insurance. 
That was a huge problem that led to a lot of fraud. And if we 
have another--at some point, there is going to be another 
economic downturn or some issue. We are going to rely more on 
the unemployment insurance to help people who are really in 
need of help. If you do not have those systems modernized, you 
are going to have a real problem.
    I know when the pandemic came--and the Congress did not 
want to send the $600 to everybody in supplemental payment. 
They wanted to gear it to whatever that person was earning at 
that time so that you did not overcompensate people more on 
unemployment than what they were gaining from their job, but 
the systems could not do that. I got calls ahead of time, ``can 
we do that,'' and it just was not possible at that time.
    Mr. Palmer. We have got all kinds of problems with this. I 
was very involved in Alabama looking into fraud in respect to 
that. We have taken down a lot of the guardrails. Just failure 
to verify eligibility and responding to requests for 
unemployment benefits from foreign IP addresses.
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Mr. Palmer. I mean, it is across the board.
    Mr. Chairman, I do think that some of the things we have 
discussed today would merit congressional action and, I think, 
additional oversight from this Committee.
    I could go on for quite a while. Mr. Dodaro and I have had 
many discussions about some of these issues, and I greatly 
appreciate the work of the GAO and your staff. You do a great 
job. We have got to do a better job, though, of making sure 
that these recommendations are implemented.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much.
    The gentlewoman from Washington, D.C., Ms. Norton, is 
recognized.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Over the past 14 years, GAO's duplication, overlap, and 
fragmentation report has made critical findings and 
recommendations to make our government more efficient. These 
findings and recommendations have had an impact. Congress and 
agencies have addressed nearly two-thirds of GAO's 2,008 
matters and recommendations.
    Mr. Dodaro, that progress has yielded significant financial 
benefits. Is that correct?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Ms. Norton. I believe it is $667 billion?
    Mr. Dodaro. Billion.
    Ms. Norton. And that is an increase of about 71 billion 
since last year's report?
    Mr. Dodaro. That is correct.
    Ms. Norton. In response to GAO's urging, the Office of 
Management and Budget leveraged the buying power of the Federal 
Government to save almost $49 billion over a 4-year period. GAO 
also goaded the Small Business Administration's implementation 
of a new automatic screening system among other oversight 
controls. That saved the taxpayers more than $13 billion in 
just 3 years.
    GAO's duplication work is about finding ways to make each 
Federal agency go as far as it possibly can. GAO's report 
recognizes the critical value of these programs while improving 
their efficiencies.
    Mr. Dodaro, it seems to me that this report shows us what 
GAO does best: finding process fixes that can yield huge 
results for the American people. Is that fair?
    Mr. Dodaro. It is not only fair; it is absolutely true.
    Ms. Norton. In this regard, this report is an excellent 
roadmap for Congress to further strengthen invaluable Federal 
programs, giving us a to-do list of items for legislative 
reform, although it may not be so obvious today. Over my 
decades in Congress, I have seen us come together in a 
bipartisan way to create legislative fixes to government 
operations, improving daily life for the American people. These 
may not be flashy topics, but they are the nuts and bolts of 
improving government and delivering vital services to the 
American people.
    Let us take a simple example that I mentioned earlier. In 
2017 and 2021, GAO highlighted that agencies could potentially 
save taxpayers billions of dollars if they simply collect--
simply use collective buying power for things like office 
supplies.
    Mr. Dodaro, how does leveraging buying power help save 
money?
    Mr. Dodaro. Well, you have individual agencies going out 
and basically, you know, buying these things themselves. So, 
there are a lot of common items, particularly in information 
technology area, where the government can use their buying 
power to get a better price out of the market by having a 
greater quantity of those items that are bought collectively 
rather than everybody buying something simply.
    And so, it is just a matter of market dynamics. If you have 
a bigger order and a demand, you can negotiate to get a better 
price.
    Ms. Norton. It is clear that GAO's recommendations are 
intended to improve the Federal programs that serve the 
American people, not gut them. I look forward to opportunities 
to work with my colleagues on both sides of the aisle for 
implementation of GAO's recommendations.
    Thank you very much, and I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time. Thank 
you very much.
    The distinguished gentleman from the state of Missouri, Mr. 
Burlison, is recognized.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Chairman Sessions and Mr. Dodaro, 
for being here today.
    I have a lot of questions. I do not know that I am going to 
be able to get to all of them in the 5 minutes, but I would 
first like to talk about the student loan income-driven 
repayment plans.
    So, for Federal students, the borrowers can apply for 
income-driven repayment plans which use the borrowers--
supposedly, their income--their taxable income and their family 
size to determine what the pay rate is. GAO recommended that 
the Department of Education obtain data to verify income 
information for borrowers that were reporting zero income on 
income-driven repayment applications.
    What has been the result of that recommendation?
    Mr. Dodaro. Due to implementation of our recommendations, 
the Congress had given Education the authority to use IRS data 
to verify income if the applicants for the income-driven 
repayment program would agree to allow them their tax data to 
be accessed by IRS. That was part of the law.
    Mr. Burlison. Would that not be a tacit consent if they are 
making the application that they understand that their data 
would be accessed?
    Mr. Dodaro. No. No. They have to give permission in order 
to do it. There are criminal penalties for IRS sharing tax data 
without appropriate authorities. So, that was a safeguard put 
into place. So, that is in place now, but what is not in place 
is for the people who do not agree to have their tax data 
accessed.
    Mr. Burlison. Right.
    Mr. Dodaro. What is Education going to do to verify their 
income? Now, they can get commercial sources. There are plenty 
available for that.
    Mr. Burlison. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro. They can use the--if they get authority from 
the Congress--the new hire data base that the HHS, Health and 
Human Services, has. It has the most up-to-date wage 
information for people in the country. It is used for child 
enforcement purposes, but it can be used.
    That is what we use when we compare that data to what 
people put in their applications at Education. That is where we 
found 95,000 plans were reporting zero income, but that data 
showed that that was not necessarily the case.
    Mr. Burlison. Does the Department of Education have the 
authority if they were to be able to get this private sector 
data and compare that with the claims?
    Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
    Mr. Burlison. And then, if you have incongruency, what 
would the next steps be? Could they require at that point or 
deny them unless they provide their tax forms?
    Mr. Dodaro. They could provide additional support.
    Mr. Burlison. And is that happening?
    Mr. Dodaro. We do not know yet. We are going to look at 
this. This is just newly implemented.
    You know, there was a pause during COVID for people in the 
repayment of their income-driven repayment plans. So, that has 
just started up most recently. And people have to recertify 
every year. So, we are going to look at this and see what they 
are doing at the Education Department to handle this particular 
gap.
    Mr. Burlison. And then I have two more questions.
    One, I was intrigued by the discussion about our 
universities and your recommendations to secure the--make sure 
that our intellectual property--security of the United States 
is protected at our research facilities.
    It sounds like you said that there are some recommendations 
that will require steps from Congress. Can you elaborate on 
that?
    Mr. Dodaro. I am not sure--yes. Our recommendations really 
were to the executive branch--is what I thought--that there be 
more efforts to determine foreign ownership and control or 
influence over these particular areas.
    Now, what we found is that some agencies were doing a good 
job and using intelligence information and others, but there 
was no sharing going on across the government. So, one agency 
might be making a grant to the same place. Another agency would 
not do so because they had concerns and had additional 
information.
    So, we asked the Office of Science Technology and Policy in 
the White House--which is supposed to put out governmentwide 
guidance on this to put out better guidance--so there is more 
thorough vetting ahead of time because agencies have a lot of 
questions.
    Mr. Burlison. And then, within my short time, this is a big 
question.
    Mr. Dodaro. All right.
    Mr. Burlison. You mentioned that there is potential saving 
opportunities with the Medicaid systems for states to 
modernize. Can you elaborate on those and if there is any 
action we need to take in Congress?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I think the main action is oversight. I 
think the Medicaid program needs a lot more oversight about 
what is going on. For example, they estimate there was $50 
billion in improper payments last year, but it is mostly in the 
fee-for-service portion. In the Medicaid Advantage portion--
which, as you know, is almost half of the amount of spending 
now in Medicaid--there is really not very good auditing of what 
is going on in the Medicare Advantage program.
    We have encouraged and CMS has started to do more audits 
over there, and they are finding some of the same overpayment 
programs and preliminary estimates in that area, but Congress 
can do a lot more.
    Also, Congress can require that any Medicaid 
demonstration--about half of Medicaid spending right now is 
because states came to the Federal Government and they said, 
you know, we want to try this new process, and if we do so, we 
think we could better serve the public.
    Mr. Burlison. The waiver program?
    Mr. Dodaro. Waiver. Yes. Exactly. The waiver program. But 
the waiver program was supposed to be budget neutral. So, it 
was not supposed to cost more money, and it has, big time. So, 
we are allowing waivers that are costing more, and they are not 
really, in many cases, demonstrating the benefits.
    Mr. Burlison. A better outcome for the----
    Mr. Dodaro. Better outcomes. Exactly.
    So, that program--and it is fast growing. It is fast 
growing. And I think it is always used to help during economic 
downturns and other things.
    We have a recommendation that Congress act to provide 
during economic downturns a formula that would be put in place 
to more timely provide assistance during high periods of 
unemployment for people that would then require Medicaid. It 
would be more efficient and effective than some of the 
approaches Congress uses in times of economic crisis.
    Mr. Burlison. Thank you.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
    We are going to have an opportunity--and thank you. I put 
the wrong talk on.
    Mr. Dodaro, I want to go back to--there has been some bit 
of discussion about healthcare here today in probably four or 
five specific areas you have spoken of. I wondered if you would 
walk through for Mr. Mfume and I generally the right way--what 
you do, how you deal with the law, how you deal with an agency, 
how you deal with inspector general--on what might be what we 
knew several months ago was a report about people being on 
FEHB. Maybe many people being on that that should not be, 
either not paying, added improperly, still being on maybe when 
they--across the board.
    Are you prepared, maybe, to give us a walkthrough on that 
or a high-level idea about that? Because that would be 
something seemingly that someone should have within their 
immediate vestiges of their authority, and to have to come back 
and show them where they have not been faithful to that would 
be distressing, I am sure, to both of us on a bipartisan basis.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Sure. Sure. Yes. That was our report. The 
IG has done some work in that area.
    The estimates of improper payments where there are 
ineligible people on the Federal Employee Health Programs range 
from $1 billion to $3 billion. The 1 billion is by OPM. The 3 
billion is by the OPM IG. You know, we have looked at it. We 
have made recommendations that they have people provide 
documentation to support the number of people on each 
healthcare plan.
    Now, OPM has started--if somebody wants to change a plan 
during open season or they have a life event where they are 
allowed to, you know the birth of a child or whatever, to add 
somebody to ask for documentation, but they have not yet gone 
back and looked at all the people that are already in the 
system as to whether they have legitimate numbers of people. 
You know, not beneficiaries, but people who are eligible for 
services that are legitimate. We think that kind of audit needs 
to take place.
    You know, part of the issue that OPM has is they do not 
have central data, even though it is all at the agencies--the 
individual Federal agencies--and so they are trying to get more 
of a central repository so that they can have more controls in 
place to check on these things right now.
    But there are ways that they could do this audit. They 
could sample across the Federal agencies. They could get some 
participation. But there has to be a thorough audit done of 
existing people that are on the Federal employees health 
benefit system. It is one of the biggest benefit systems in the 
country, and for decades, nobody checked these things. Whatever 
the Federal employee put down and, you know, that is what was 
there.
    Mr. Sessions. Self-reporting?
    Mr. Dodaro. It was self---yes, basically, and an area of 
trust. And, when people started checking, they started finding 
out, well, no, there were some people on there that were not 
really eligible to be part of that person's health benefit 
program.
    I have talked to the OPM Director about this--the now 
Acting Director--and encouraged them to implement our 
recommendations, and hopefully they will.
    Mr. Sessions. What generally is the take on this specific 
issue? I am not asking you to say which person.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Mr. Sessions. But, generally, agency responsibility, IG 
providing, doing their own internal investigation, trying to 
figure out where that link might be that is a disconnect, an 
office or an audit or a process----
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. That did not yield something. 
Have they gotten far enough along there to say, ``Oh, I see 
what we need to be doing or what further information we need to 
correct that circumstance?''
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Yes. No, I think, in this case, the 
current Acting Director of OPM knows exactly what needs to be 
done. He has a background in insurance areas, and he knows what 
the shortcomings are. The question he is wrestling with is how 
can he implement all these things that need to be implemented 
as soon as possible, like getting a central repository in 
place.
    So, some of it is going to take time, but in the meantime, 
they need to have an audit, and that is, you know, his 
responsibility to orchestrate that audit, working with other 
departments and agencies as he needs to. He could use the IG to 
help him do that work. But that is where the locus of 
responsibility is right now.
    Mr. Sessions. Several hours ago, we had a brief discussion 
with you--both of us with you--about the things that you felt 
like we could partner on better, and you mentioned those eight 
items, I believe.
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Mr. Sessions. And, while I was aware of them and you and I 
spoke about them on the phone earlier in the week and I did see 
those, those are broad concepts. Those are necessary management 
toolsets that you would want our agencies and you would want 
OPM to be certainly involved in that, IGs, you would want 
anybody that is going to be a Secretary of a department, 
perhaps, to agree with that.
    This is a specific issue. This is one that deals with an 
agency and their responsibility. How did they handle the 
feedback that came from OPM and you about this issue?
    Mr. Dodaro. I think they recognized the significance of the 
issue but, you know, like in a lot of cases, people are slow to 
act on a recommendation. That is why we keep following up. 
Every year, I have mentioned I send a letter to every 
department head at the agency.
    You know, here, you have an example. You know, an average 
political appointee spends about 2 years in the Federal 
Government. So, there is a lot of turnover, and that is part of 
the problem. This occurs throughout government.
    Now, here, you have got somebody who has just stepped into 
the acting job. Now, he was a deputy before, so he had some 
responsibility for this, but it is up to him to take action as 
soon as possible in this regard and marshal whatever sources 
they have. He can partner with OMB and get some additional 
support from OMB, which I think he could use in order to start 
this process of auditing the current, you know, people who are 
enrolled in that program and how many people they report as 
eligible to receive services under their plan.
    I mean, this is not rocket science. I mean, it is 
basically--you know, looking at those things and doing some 
good auditing, and it could be tackled, you know, as soon as 
the resources could be marshaled to do it.
    Mr. Sessions. Resources or a person that decides they want 
to do it.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Right. Well, you have to have leadership. 
You have to have the will. You have to have the will and the 
leadership, and it has to be sustained leadership. And that is 
one of our criteria on the high-risk list. You do not get off 
the high-risk list unless you have sustained leadership 
commitment, and that can come from multiple people, you know, 
over time.
    Mr. Sessions. That is why, in 1997, in working with a 
gentleman named Robert Shea, we developed what that red light--
I think you helped us--red light, green light----
    Mr. Dodaro. I did, yes.
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Yellow light process where we 
wanted agencies to move.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, one thing you did during that 
period, too, that I think was very effective and you may want 
to consider this again, you had a results caucus.
    Mr. Sessions. We did.
    Mr. Dodaro. And you had--certain Members had an assigned 
high-risk area to them to work it in depth. And that was very 
helpful because they were able to, you know, really dig in 
deeper and understand the nuances and the details that needed 
to be done, and so--I mean, that was one model that I think had 
some good success. There are other approaches that could be 
made.
    Mr. Sessions. I completely agree with you.
    Before we get too far away from this, OMB presents their 
budget to the Congress from the President. Is there a good way 
to link up the results that you see with putting those with the 
funding mechanism that shows some bit of delivery or open 
process and----
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. And to have the Budget people 
asking the same people that the Government Accountability 
people are asking for? Would that be helpful?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Womack wrote me this note and said, hey--
this is his addition. He thinks it is a good idea. What do you 
think?
    Mr. Dodaro. Well, actually, it is already supposed to be 
implemented. I mean, the Congress passed the--it is called the 
GAO-IG Act.
    Mr. Sessions. Right.
    Mr. Dodaro. And, with each budget submission, each agency 
is supposed to list open GAO and IG recommendations and what 
they are going to do to address those recommendations. Now, 
whether that is working or not, it is one of the things that we 
need to look into along with the IGs.
    Our initial glance at it was that it was very--you know, it 
was not uniformly applied. Agencies were all over the place. 
Some did it right. Others did not do it at all. So, there is no 
enforcement mechanisms in place. OMB did not require, you know, 
that they look at it as part of the budget process and make 
sure that they were including that information in there.
    So, as usual, Bill has got a great idea. I think the 
concepts are in place, but they need to be effectively 
implemented. And, if Congress is not saying, ``Well, where is 
that information, why do we not have it here as part of the 
budget submission,'' agencies are going to get the idea, 
``Well, it is just another mandate Congress put on us. Nobody 
is going to use it.''
    Mr. Sessions. Well, if it does not become a shiny object to 
someone----
    Mr. Dodaro. It becomes a hollow requirement.
    Mr. Sessions. Right.
    Mr. Dodaro. And so, I think much more can be done with 
that.
    And, also, these priority recommendation letters that I 
send each year, I send to all the appropriators as well as the 
oversight committees. So, that could be part of the process. I 
have one for OMB itself as well.
    Mr. Sessions. Is that not great?
    Mr. Dodaro. It is wonderful----
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Several forum, too.
    Mr. Mfume, the gentleman, is recognized.
    Mr. Mfume. OK.
    Well, Mr. Dodaro, this has been interesting to say the very 
least, and I am hoping that, in consultation with the Chair, 
that we do not let a year go by before we have you back. In 
fact, for those of us who might be lucky enough to return to 
this place after November elections, it is probably something 
that we may want to consider late in the year.
    But I am going to defer to the Chair on that and indicate 
on the record that I just think that we need to hear from you 
as much as we can over and over again. And I am hoping also 
that what we have gleaned from this will give us enough energy 
and focus to do something that is not hollow, to do something 
that is long-lasting. And I listened to your comments about 
this results caucus. It predates me, but it sounds like it is a 
great idea.
    We are a part of the world's largest bureaucracy, and if we 
ever thought we were not, all we had to do was listen to these 
several hours of testimony today. And that largest bureaucracy 
in the world really creates for us the greatest challenge.
    And all I could think about as I listened to the questions 
of my colleagues on both sides of the aisle and my comments and 
the Chair's comments is that we are throwing money away in so 
many different areas in so many different ways and really 
missing the opportunity of the wealth of this society to be 
able to efficiently operate in a way where equity, economy, 
efficiency, and efficacy are all working together.
    So, the challenge is really, really large. You have given 
us a lot to think about. I listened to some of the comments 
that came about early in the last couple of hours. From my side 
of the aisle, if you walk away with anything today, please keep 
in mind that some of the issues that were raised earlier 
dealing with equity and particularly bias that has been able to 
be identified as well as duplication that has been identified 
so many ways are really very important issues.
    And I must tell you, if there was ever a concept that I 
would consider a joke, it is this whole notion of self-
certification. I do not know where that came from, how it got 
into the government, or why we even think that it would work.
    So, I am hoping--and I do not know if there are other 
places that self-certification is alive and well--that you 
continue to point that out to us because we can do something 
legitimately legislatively to make sure that that goes away. We 
saw what it did to us during the pandemic. It is a disaster. I 
mean, a real disaster.
    And the other thing is--I mentioned earlier, in terms of 
the algorithmic selections that take place, particularly here 
as it relates to IRS or the Login.gov situation--they need 
options. That cannot be the sole method of identifying, 
verifying, and moving forward.
    And I was glad that you mentioned that the real next 
frontier here is AI and what is going on with that and how that 
can disrupt the entire effort and all the good efforts of 
people who are working to eradicate the inequities that may 
exist.
    So, you have got a big job. I see why you have hung around 
for 51 years because you cannot finish it. Every day, there is 
a new issue and a new problem. We thank you very much for this 
time and hope to see you again.
    You know, on the wall behind you is the portrait of the 
former Chair of this Committee, the late Elijah Cummings, who 
was a friend of mine for 42 years. And he would, in the 
simplest way, remind us over and over again--and I quote--``We 
can do better than this.'' So, thank you, sir, for your time.
    Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you. Mr. Mfume, if I might----
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Dodaro. Mr. Cummings, I was in this room with him many, 
many times, and he talked about the importance of why people 
were in public service. He used to say it was to feed their 
souls. And it was a very apt saying. And he was, you know, very 
committed, as both of you are, to making improvements in these 
areas.
    And everything, also the one area I do not want you to lose 
sight of is making these improvements builds better trust in 
government, and we desperately need to work together to do that 
right now as our institutions deliver for the American people 
what they expect.
    So, I thank you for the opportunity to be here. I am sorry 
to interject, but I have very fond memories of Mr. Cummings.
    Mr. Mfume. Well, he was a remarkable individual and friend, 
as I said.
    And, maybe on your last point about building trust and the 
fact that it has not been done, that is why it is so typical to 
hear the joke sometimes that ``I am from the government, and I 
am here to help you.'' People do not believe that anymore. 
Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Sessions. I want to thank the distinguished gentleman 
and my colleague.
    Mr. Dodaro, the bottom line is, when we spoke the other 
day, I told you that I thought you would be well worth our 
time, but I also told you today that we wanted to be worth your 
time. You and your colleagues that have joined you today have 
been value-add to us.
    And I hope that, even though we did not have a lot of huge 
shiny objects that draw a lot of people, we did run through 
this Subcommittee that you receive feedback and questions and 
opportunities from people.
    And I think we spoke pretty much with a similar voice, if 
not the same, and that is that we do as you just suggested and 
see that something has to be fair, but when it is fair, there 
is not going to be self-reporting. There will be accountability 
associated with that.
    I spoke several weeks ago to a new citizen indoctrination 
where we are bringing people through the process, and I talked 
to them about responsibilities. Today, when they raised their 
hand and they were new citizens, there is a right and a 
responsibility. And I do believe that these things offer some 
bit of balance. And I think that you, of all people in this 
government, bring that to bear. You should be thanked for it. 
Your agency should be thanked. But on behalf of us, we 
appreciate it again today.
    We are going to close the hearing right now, but we would 
like to come down and get our picture with you. I alluded 
earlier that there may be some students that are present here 
today, and I would like to ask, that as Mr. Mfume and I walk 
down, that our students would come and stand behind us, and we 
would be able to shake your hand and let this be a testament to 
them that there is a lot done in this town. When done properly 
and together, it can be achieved, and I hope that we have done 
a little bit of that today.
    Mr. Dodaro. You sure have. I appreciate it.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
    OK. Well, we have now heard from this. This closes the 
hearing that was today. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 1:28 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                 [all]