[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                    LEGISLATIVE BRANCH ADVANCEMENT:
                           GAO MODERNIZATION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON MODERNIZATION

                                 OF THE

                   COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                           SEPTEMBER 27, 2023

                               __________

      Printed for the use of the Committee on House Administration
      
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                  COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION

                    BRYAN STEIL, Wisconsin, Chairman

BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia            JOSEPH MORELLE, New York,
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia              Ranking Member
GREG MURPHY, North Carolina          TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama
STEPHANIE BICE, Oklahoma             NORMA TORRES, California
MIKE CAREY, Ohio                     DEREK KILMER, Washington
ANTHONY D'ESPOSITO, New York
LAUREL LEE, Florida

                       Mike Platt, Staff Director
                  Jamie Fleet, Minority Staff Director

                                 ------                                

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON MODERNIZATION

                    STEPHANIE BICE, Oklahoma, Chair

MIKE CAREY, Ohio                     DEREK KILMER, Washington,
                                          Ranking Member
                                     JOSEPH MORELLE, New York

               Derek Harley, Subcommittee Staff Director
                        
                        
                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                           Opening Statements

Chairwoman of the Subcommittee on Modernization Stephanie Bice, 
  Representative from the State of Oklahoma......................     1
    Prepared statement of the Chairwoman of the Subcommittee on 
      Modernization Stephanie Bice...............................     3
Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Modernization Derek Kilmer, 
  Representative from the State of Washington....................     4
    Prepared statement of the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee 
      on Modernization Derek Kilmer..............................     5
Chairman of the Committee on House Administration Bryan Steil, 
  Representative from the State of Wisconsin.....................     6
    Prepared statement of the Chairman of the Committee on House 
      Administration Bryan Steil.................................     7

                           Witness Statements

Gene Dodaro, Comptroller General, U.S. Government Accountability 
  Office.........................................................     7
    Prepared statement of Gene Dodaro............................     9
Tim Persons, Principal, PricewaterhouseCoopers LLP...............    36
    Prepared statement of Tim Persons............................    38
James-Christian Blockwood, Executive Vice President, Partnership 
  for Public Service.............................................    43
    Prepared statement of James-Christian Blockwood..............    45
Dan Lips, Head of Policy, Foundation for American Innovation 
  (FAI)..........................................................    53
    Prepared statement of Dan Lips...............................    55

                        Questions for the Record

Dan Lips answers to submitted questions..........................    74
James-Christian Blockwood answers to submitted questions.........    78
Tim Persons answers to submitted questions.......................    80

 
                    LEGISLATIVE BRANCH ADVANCEMENT:
                           GAO MODERNIZATION

                              ----------                              


                           September 27, 2023

             Subcommittee on Modernization,
                 Committee on House Administration,
                                  House of Representatives,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:32 a.m., in 
room 1310, Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Stephanie Bice 
[chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Bice, Steil, Kilmer, and Morelle.
    Staff present: Hillary Lassiter, Clerk; Jordan Wilson, 
Director of Member Services; Alex Deise, Elections Counsel, 
Assistant Parliamentarian; Derek Harley, Modernization 
Subcommittee Staff Director; Jessica Smith, Detailee; Jamie 
Fleet, Minority Staff Director; and Owen Reilly, Minority 
Legislative Assistant.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. STEPHANIE BICE, CHAIRWOMAN OF THE 
   SUBCOMMITTEE ON MODERNIZATION, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
                            OKLAHOMA

    Chairwoman Bice. Well, good morning. The Subcommittee on 
Modernization will come to order.
    I note that a quorum is presented. Without objection, the 
chair may declare a recess at any time.
    The meeting record will remain open for 5 legislative days 
so Members may submit any materials they wish to be included 
therein.
    Thank you, Ranking Member Kilmer, Subcommittee Members, and 
our witnesses for taking the time to be with us today.
    The mission of this Subcommittee, building upon the work of 
the Select Committee, is to continue to examine ways to 
strengthen Congress to make it a more effective, efficient, and 
transparent institution for the American people.
    Today we will hear from and about the Government 
Accountability Office, one of the congressional support 
agencies that is truly a force multiplier. It provides 
essential nonpartisan, fact-based analysis, and expertise 
across a wide range of issues to support Congress in our 
legislative and oversight duties on behalf of the American 
people. It gets results.
    I understand that there is an inside joke among friends and 
supporters of the GAO that a common theme is said to run 
through GAO's work, quote: Progress made, challenges remain. 
While that may get a laugh from the GAO insiders, it undersells 
the true value of the GAO. It can serve to underscore one of 
the principal themes I would like us to cover today, which is, 
what can we do to strengthen the agency for the future and 
provide the additional tools it needs to support Congress and 
fix the challenges that remain?
    With that said, I would like to welcome Mr. Gene Dodaro, 
U.S. Comptroller General of the GAO. The Committee welcomes 
your remarks on the future of the GAO, the agency's strengths, 
and the best practices you see working well at the GAO that 
should be replicated by other agencies.
    Our second panel includes two former GAO employees and a 
former Senate Oversight staffer, who was an important customer 
of the GAO, all of whom continue to be advocates for the agency 
and can share an outside perspective on what modernization 
efforts have been successful and how the agency can expand on 
their prior success.
    The GAO conducts oversight of our Federal agencies and 
programs, identifies waste, fraud, and abuse, and analyzes the 
efficacy and efficiency of Government programs. GAO reports 
typically issue recommendations to Federal agencies or 
highlight matters for congressional consideration, all of which 
can remedy identified issues, improve program outcomes, and 
reduce fragmentation, overlap, and duplication across Federal 
Government. Their work has resulted in saving roughly 1.31 
trillion taxpayer dollars since 2002. Indeed, for every $1 
appropriated to GAO between 2018 and 2023, GAO has had a $145 
return on that investment. I think we can all agree that a 
Government agency saving taxpayer dollars should be recognized 
for their outstanding work.
    In the previous Congress, the Select Committee on 
Modernization made several GAO-related recommendations focused 
on strengthening and improving GAO's service to Congress.
    Two of these recommendations were included in the Improving 
Government for America's Taxpayers Act, introduced by my 
colleague, Ranking Member Kilmer. That bill was enacted as part 
of the Fiscal Year 2023 NDAA (National Defense Authorization 
Act) and directed GAO to submit to Congress a targeted report 
on the costs of unimplemented priority recommendations, as well 
as additional policy or oversight options for Congress to 
consider.
    We are eager to hear how GAO has responded to those 
requirements, which were designed to help Congress better 
understand and more easily address the outstanding GAO 
recommendations that could provide real savings to American 
taxpayers.
    Over time, the GAO has implemented several modernization 
initiatives on its own and represents a prime example of an 
agency that has evolved proactively to meet the needs of its 
primary customer, Congress.
    For example, in 2019, the GAO expanded its capacity for 
science and technology support through Science, Technology 
Assessment, and Analytics Team. The STAA Team has developed new 
products and services that have provided Congress access to 
scientific and technological expertise.
    I look forward to hearing about STAA's modernization 
efforts and how the team can be strengthened to best support 
science and tech policymaking in Congress.
    Finally, we will discuss the future of GAO and its vision. 
For 3 consecutive years, GAO was rated the best midsize agency 
to work for in the Federal Government. This notable achievement 
leads to high employee motivation and, most importantly, to 
results for Congress and the American people.
    I look forward to hearing from our panelists about the path 
ahead, the new and innovative ways in which the GAO can support 
Congress, help identify savings and greater efficiencies, and 
increase accountability for our Government agencies.
    I want to again thank the witnesses for being here this 
morning.
    [The prepared statement of Chairwoman Bice follows:]

 PREPARED STATEMENT OF HON. STEPHANIE BICE, CHAIRWOMAN OF THE 
                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON MODERNIZATION

    The mission of this Subcommittee, building upon the work of 
the Select Committee, is to continue to examine ways to 
strengthen Congress to make it a more effective, efficient, and 
transparent institution for the American people.
    Today we will hear from and about the Government 
Accountability Office, one of the congressional support 
agencies that is truly a force multiplier. It provides 
essential nonpartisan, fact-based analysis, and expertise 
across a wide range of issues to support Congress in our 
legislative and oversight duties on behalf of the American 
people. It gets results.
    I understand that there is an inside joke among friends and 
supporters of the GAO that a common theme is said to run 
through GAO's work, quote: Progress made, challenges remain. 
While that may get a laugh from the GAO insiders, it undersells 
the true value of the GAO. It can serve to underscore one of 
the principal themes I would like us to cover today, which is, 
what can we do to strengthen the agency for the future and 
provide the additional tools it needs to support Congress and 
fix the challenges that remain?
    With that said, I would like to welcome Mr. Gene Dodaro, 
U.S. Comptroller General of the GAO. The Committee welcomes 
your remarks on the future of the GAO, the agency's strengths, 
and the best practices you see working well at the GAO that 
should be replicated by other agencies.
    Our second panel includes two former GAO employees and a 
former Senate Oversight staffer, who was an important customer 
of the GAO, all of whom continue to be advocates for the agency 
and can share an outside perspective on what modernization 
efforts have been successful and how the agency can expand on 
their prior success.
    The GAO conducts oversight of our Federal agencies and 
programs, identifies waste, fraud, and abuse, and analyzes the 
efficacy and efficiency of Government programs. GAO reports 
typically issue recommendations to Federal agencies or 
highlight matters for congressional consideration, all of which 
can remedy identified issues, improve program outcomes, and 
reduce fragmentation, overlap, and duplication across Federal 
Government. Their work has resulted in saving roughly 1.31 
trillion taxpayer dollars since 2002. Indeed, for every $1 
appropriated to GAO between 2018 and 2023, GAO has had a $145 
return on that investment. I think we can all agree that a 
Government agency saving taxpayer dollars should be recognized 
for their outstanding work.
    In the previous Congress, the Select Committee on 
Modernization made several GAO-related recommendations focused 
on strengthening and improving GAO's service to Congress.
    Two of these recommendations were included in the Improving 
Government for America's Taxpayers Act, introduced by my 
colleague, Ranking Member Kilmer. That bill was enacted as part 
of the Fiscal Year 2023 NDAA and directed GAO to submit to 
Congress a targeted report on the costs of unimplemented 
priority recommendations, as well as additional policy or 
oversight options for Congress to consider.
    We are eager to hear how GAO has responded to those 
requirements, which were designed to help Congress better 
understand and more easily address the outstanding GAO 
recommendations that could provide real savings to American 
taxpayers.
    Over time, the GAO has implemented several modernization 
initiatives on its own and represents a prime example of an 
agency that has evolved proactively to meet the needs of its 
primary customer, Congress.
    For example, in 2019, the GAO expanded its capacity for 
science and technology support through Science, Technology 
Assessment, and Analytics Team. The STAA Team has developed new 
products and services that have provided Congress access to 
scientific and technological expertise.
    I look forward to hearing about STAA's modernization 
efforts and how the team can be strengthened to best support 
science and tech policymaking in Congress.
    Finally, we will discuss the future of GAO and its vision. 
For 3 consecutive years, GAO was rated the best midsize agency 
to work for in the Federal Government. This notable achievement 
leads to high employee motivation and, most importantly, to 
results for Congress and the American people.
    I look forward to hearing from our panelists about the path 
ahead, the new and innovative ways in which the GAO can support 
Congress, help identify savings and greater efficiencies, and 
increase accountability for our Government agencies.

    Now I recognize Ranking Member Kilmer for the purpose of 
providing an opening statement.
    Mr. Kilmer. Thanks, Madam Chair.
    Thanks for being with us. I do not know, do I call you 
General Dodaro, Mr. Dodaro?
    Mr. Dodaro. Gene is fine.

 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. DEREK KILMER, RANKING MEMBER OF THE 
   SUBCOMMITTEE ON MODERNIZATION, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
                           WASHINGTON

    Mr. Kilmer. All right. Thanks for meeting with us, Gene. 
When we were walking in, you said you were in your 50th year at 
the GAO. I thank you for a long tenure of service and for a 
whole lot of impact. Excited to hear from you and from our 
second panel as well.
    I really appreciate the work that you do, the oversight 
that you provide. You know, I am a big believer in the notion 
of loving critics, you know, those who do not want to bash 
institutions but make them better. I think the GAO is really 
vital to that, certainly when it comes to Congress, but other 
agencies as well.
    You know, the value of representing the West Coast of 
Washington State is I spend 11 hours a week on an airplane, 
which means I get plenty of time to read GAO reports and get a 
sense of some of the results of your work and some of the open 
recommendations. Honestly, they lead to a lot of legislation 
that our team does.
    We just introduced a bill called the REACH Our Tribes Act, 
which is focused on--which we are hoping to attach to the farm 
bill, which is based on GAO reports that found that some of the 
Department of Agriculture's programs do not do a good job of 
engaging Tribal communities and serving Tribal communities.
    We are working on legislation to direct NOAA (National 
Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) to improve its weather 
radio coverage and ensure it extends to areas at risk of 
tsunami like the one I represent. That came from a GAO report.
    I represent a big naval shipyard, and GAO has been super 
helpful in looking at the Shipyard Infrastructure Optimization 
Program.
    I share that just to let you know the work you do matters 
to my office and I think really matters to the Government and 
to this institution. You know, it is part of the reason the 
Select Committee on Modernization of Congress in the 116th and 
the 117th looked at recommendations to help you do the work 
that you do.
    I am hoping that we can hear some updates on some of those 
recommendations. One was bolstering legislative support 
agencies' access to Federal data and experts. One was 
bolstering bipartisan oversight training for Members and staff, 
enhancing the customer experience at GAO, including increasing 
presence and awareness of your work among congressional Members 
and staff, and one was identifying how increased regulatory and 
legal resources could help strengthen the role of the 
legislative branch, which we look forward to your forthcoming 
report on.
    The chair mentioned the Improving Government for America's 
Taxpayers Act, which I know GAO has worked to implement, and, 
you know, that comes from a couple Select Committee 
recommendations; the notion being that the GAO can help 
Congress know about some of the open recommendations, how long 
they have been open, how much money could be saved if those 
recommendations were acted upon, and some legislative options 
for closing those recommendation.
    When you hear about the return on investment that the chair 
mentioned, you guys are where it is at I think. The spirit of 
the law that we passed and that was part of the NDAA was, you 
know, let us get cooking on some of the recommendations you 
have made.
    Looking forward to hearing from you and looking forward to 
hearing from our other witnesses too.
    Thanks for being with us.
    [The prepared statement of Ranking Member Kilmer follows:]

  PREPARED STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER OF THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON 
                   MODERNIZATION DEREK KILMER

    Mr. Kilmer. Thanks for meeting with us, Gene. When we were 
walking in, you said you were in your 50th year at the GAO. I 
thank you for a long tenure of service and for a whole lot of 
impact. Excited to hear from you and from our second panel as 
well.
    I really appreciate the work that you do, the oversight 
that you provide. You know, I am a big believer in the notion 
of loving critics, you know, those who do not want to bash 
institutions but make them better. I think the GAO is really 
vital to that, certainly when it comes to Congress, but other 
agencies as well.
    You know, the value of representing the West Coast of 
Washington State is I spend 11 hours a week on an airplane, 
which means I get plenty of time to read GAO reports and get a 
sense of some of the results of your work and some of the open 
recommendations. Honestly, they lead to a lot of legislation 
that our team does.
    We just introduced a bill called the REACH Our Tribes Act, 
which is focused on--which we are hoping to attach to the farm 
bill, which is based on GAO reports that found that some of the 
Department of Agriculture's programs do not do a good job of 
engaging Tribal communities and serving Tribal communities.
    We are working on legislation to direct NOAA (National 
Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration) to improve its weather 
radio coverage and ensure it extends to areas at risk of 
tsunami like the one I represent. That came from a GAO report.
    I represent a big naval shipyard, and GAO has been super 
helpful in looking at the Shipyard Infrastructure Optimization 
Program.
    I share that just to let you know the work you do matters 
to my office and I think really matters to the Government and 
to this institution. You know, it is part of the reason the 
Select Committee on Modernization of Congress in the 116th and 
the 117th looked at recommendations to help you do the work 
that you do.
    I am hoping that we can hear some updates on some of those 
recommendations. One was bolstering legislative support 
agencies' access to Federal data and experts. One was 
bolstering bipartisan oversight training for Members and staff, 
enhancing the customer experience at GAO, including increasing 
presence and awareness of your work among congressional Members 
and staff, and one was identifying how increased regulatory and 
legal resources could help strengthen the role of the 
legislative branch, which we look forward to your forthcoming 
report on.
    The chair mentioned the Improving Government for America's 
Taxpayers Act, which I know GAO has worked to implement, and, 
you know, that comes from a couple Select Committee 
recommendations; the notion being that the GAO can help 
Congress know about some of the open recommendations, how long 
they have been open, how much money could be saved if those 
recommendations were acted upon, and some legislative options 
for closing those recommendation.
    When you hear about the return on investment that the chair 
mentioned, you guys are where it is at I think. The spirit of 
the law that we passed and that was part of the NDAA was, you 
know, let us get cooking on some of the recommendations you 
have made.
    Looking forward to hearing from you and looking forward to 
hearing from our other witnesses too.
    Thanks for being with us.

    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you, Ranking Member Kilmer.
    It is with great delight that we have the full Committee 
chair of the House Administration Committee Mr. Steil here with 
us. At this time, I would recognize Chairman Steil for an 
opening statement as well.

    OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. BRYAN STEIL, CHAIRMAN OF THE 
 COMMITTEE ON HOUSE ADMINISTRATION, A U.S. REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
                           WISCONSIN

    Chairman Steil. Thank you very much, Chair Bice.
    I will be brief. I just want to say thanks to you and 
Ranking Member Kilmer for taking the lead on the Modernization 
Subcommittee.
    When we think about modernizing Congress, making the 
legislative branch work more efficiently, I do not think there 
is anything better than the GAO being here with us where you 
are dedicated to figuring out ways to make our Government be 
more efficient, more accountable, identify waste, fraud, and 
abuse. It is one of the few things I think operates a little 
bit more like a private sector business than a true Government 
operation. Any private sector business, this would be par for 
the course. It is too often not par for the course across 
Government in our country. In identifying the savings that we 
can make, making things work more efficiently, and ultimately 
serving the American people better I think is essential. As we 
continue our work here on the modernization of Congress, diving 
in and looking at where we can take the GAO in the years ahead. 
It is 102 years I believe you have been--the GAO, not you, 
sir--the GAO has been in existence and looking for ways that we 
can also leverage that history but also develop it for the 
future so we can continue the work of weeding out waste, fraud, 
and abuse, but also thinking proactively about how we can make 
our Federal agencies more efficient.
    The answer of ``We have always done it this way'' is 
insufficient for me, and I think you bring that approach in 
many ways to how we should be thinking about the Federal 
Government. ``We have always done it this way'' is not 
sufficient. You guys are often looking at ways to create 
efficiencies.
    Appreciate you being here and look forward to today's 
conversation.
    Thank you, Madam Chair.
    [The prepared statement of Chairman Steil follows:]

   PREPARED STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN OF THE COMMITTEE ON HOUSE 
                   ADMINISTRATION BRYAN STEIL

    When we think about modernizing Congress, making the 
legislative branch work more efficiently, I do not think there 
is anything better than the GAO being here with us where you 
are dedicated to figuring out ways to make our Government be 
more efficient, more accountable, identify waste, fraud, and 
abuse. It is one of the few things I think operates a little 
bit more like a private sector business than a true Government 
operation. Any private sector business, this would be par for 
the course. It is too often not par for the course across 
Government in our country. In identifying the savings that we 
can make, making things work more efficiently, and ultimately 
serving the American people better I think is essential. As we 
continue our work here on the modernization of Congress, diving 
in and looking at where we can take the GAO in the years ahead. 
It is 102 years I believe you have been--the GAO, not you, 
sir--the GAO has been in existence and looking for ways that we 
can also leverage that history but also develop it for the 
future so we can continue the work of weeding out waste, fraud, 
and abuse, but also thinking proactively about how we can make 
our Federal agencies more efficient.
    The answer of ``We have always done it this way'' is 
insufficient for me, and I think you bring that approach in 
many ways to how we should be thinking about the Federal 
Government. ``We have always done it this way'' is not 
sufficient. You guys are often looking at ways to create 
efficiencies.
    Appreciate you being here and look forward to today's 
conversation.

    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    We now welcome Gene Dodaro, the Comptroller General of the 
Government Accountability Office. Mr. Dodaro was nominated by 
President Obama and confirmed by the U.S. Senate in December 
2010 as the eighth Comptroller General of the GAO.
    In his role, Mr. Dodaro helps oversee the development of 
hundreds of reports and testimonies each year, paving the way 
for improvements to a wide range of Government programs and 
billions of dollars in taxpayer savings.
    With a GAO career dating back more than 50 years, Mr. 
Dodaro contributes a wealth of expertise and knowledge to the 
development of GAO's strategic plans for serving Congress and 
improving Government in the 21st century.
    Mr. Dodaro, we appreciate you being here today.
    Please remember to press the button on your microphone in 
front of you so the green light is on. When you speak, the 
timer will begin and turn green. After 4 minutes, it will be 
yellow. When the red light comes on, your 5 minutes have 
expired, and we would ask that you please wrap up quickly.
    It is my pleasure to recognize the Comptroller, Mr. Dodaro.

STATEMENT OF GENE DODARO, COMPTROLLER GENERAL, U.S. GOVERNMENT 
                     ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE

    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you very much, Chairwoman Bice, Ranking 
Member Kilmer, Chairman Steil.
    It is very nice to be here today. I appreciate the 
opportunity to talk about GAO's important work for the Congress 
and the country. I would emphasize a couple of things right up 
front. One, we do work on a regular basis for 90 percent of the 
standing Committees of the Congress. The scope of our work is 
across the entire breadth and scope of the Federal Government. 
We have subject-matter experts, technical experts, a very 
multidisciplinary organization that we built over the years. As 
has been mentioned already, we get results, tens of billions of 
dollars of savings each year but also, importantly, beyond just 
the dollar savings, the impact on improving public services, 
making agencies operate more efficiently and effectively, 
address risk, address fraud, waste, and abuse in the Federal 
Government.
    Now, my vision for GAO has always been to try to enhance it 
to be an agile, dynamic organization, always working on the 
most important national issues and also to be ready at a 
moment's notice to do real-time auditing in national 
emergencies, which is what we have done during the global 
financial crisis, both with the Troubled Asset Relief Program 
and also the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act. Most 
recently during the pandemic, we did monthly reports to the 
Congress on what was happening with the $4.5 trillion in 
assistance, what impact that had on the public health and on 
the economy, how to deal more with transparency and 
accountability issues.
    Now, we do these things by constantly refining our 
strategic planning and foresight process so that it enriches 
our dialog with the Congress on what are the top priorities 
that the Congress has and what ideas we have. We developed a 
shared agenda of things to work on, and it is very--it is not 
only current issues but emerging issues, and it is very 
important. We try to get ahead of those things before they 
become a crisis.
    Second is our workforce. We are modernizing our workforce. 
In addition to very senior people that have decades' of 
experience at GAO, we are bringing in a pipeline of younger 
people: 36 percent of our workforce is 40 or younger; 13 
percent are 30 or younger.
    We have a very dynamic--and this is one area that I have 
encouraged other agencies to implement. We have a robust 
internship program. We sell our mission. We have a good work 
environment where people feel valued, respected, and treated 
fairly. We give them flexibilities, and our attrition rate is 
only 6 percent, which is really low. You build this 
institutional knowledge. We are a knowledge organization, and 
we are only as good as our people. You need to get good people. 
You need to keep good people. You need to train them and retain 
them. This enables us to provide the highest quality service to 
the Congress on whatever challenges come our way and during 
that approach.
    Now, you mentioned the science and technology area. We have 
tripled the size of the people in that group. We now have over 
100 people with STEM degrees, 36 of them are Ph.D.s. We have 
expanded our technology assessments work. We have done 
spotlight work, you know, explainers of different technologies. 
I want to continue to grow that. I have been trying to grow it 
before Congress became a full partner with me over the decades, 
and that needs to continue to grow. That is one area where I 
would enjoy support from the Committee as well.
    The last area that is a focus for me and GAO is trying to 
get our Government on a more long-term sustainable fiscal path, 
and this--I am taking two tracks on this. One is to try to 
change the debt ceiling approach. I believe the approach we 
have now does not change the long-term trajectory of the debt. 
It causes us to pay more interest, and people stop buying 
treasuries around the time there might be an impasse.
    Plus, we need to plan. There is no guidepost now. We need a 
debt-to-GDP target. We have laid out a plan there. Plus, we are 
also working to try to--in other areas.
    Now, the main drivers are healthcare costs and then 
interest on the debt, but there are a lot of other areas in the 
Federal Government where you can achieve savings. Witness our 
results. We have got over $600 billion in financial savings as 
a result of recommendations that we have made to eliminate 
overlap, duplication, and fragmentation of the Government. Our 
recommendations on waste, fraud, and abuse regularly, on 
average the last 17 years, have over $40 billion of savings.
    We are working hard to try to do in those areas, and I 
would be happy to answer questions about some of the efforts 
and recommendations that have been put forth by the Committee 
in the Q&A.
    [The prepared statement of Comptroller General Dodaro 
follows:]

        PREPARED STATEMENT OF COMPTROLLER GENERAL DODARO

[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


    Chairwoman Bice. Perfect. Thank you, Mr. Dodaro.
    We will now question the witness, beginning with myself, 
followed by Ranking Member Kilmer. We are going to alternate 
questioning. Any Member wishing to be recognized should just 
signal to the chair. I will now recognize myself for the 
purpose of questioning the witness.
    I first want to just mention that you said a couple of 
things in your opening statement that caught my attention, 
words like ``agile,'' ``dynamic,'' ``real time,'' ``constant 
reevaluation.'' These are things that I think many of your 
counterparts across Government could maybe adopt and embrace 
because we do not often see that. The comment was made earlier, 
you know, we continue to do the same things over and over. I 
really appreciate and value the work that you are putting into 
really focusing on how can we make things more successful 
within the GAO.
    Let me start by asking you a question. You have been with 
this institution for quite some time. We mentioned earlier we 
are thankful for your service of 50 years. In 2025, it will 
actually mark the end of your 15-year term as Comptroller 
General. As we think ahead for the agency and understand that 
you want to be somewhat deferential to the process in finding 
and onboarding a new leader for the agency, what are some of 
the critical performance functions that should be required for 
an incoming Comptroller General?
    Mr. Dodaro. I think you need someone who has a broad 
perspective on management issues and policy issues in the 
Government. You know, GAO started out as an organization 
focused on financial management issues following World War I. 
We have changed dramatically over a period of time to evolve to 
meet the current needs and the future needs of the Congress and 
the country.
    As part of doing that, right now less than 10 percent of 
our workforce are financial auditors. We still audit the 
consolidated financial statements of the Federal Government. We 
still are financial advisors to the Congress. I have been 
trying mightily in that area. The bulk of our work are 
performance audits of Government programs, policies, and 
issues. We have economists, operations research people, public 
policy analysts. We have added scientists and, you know, 
information technology, cybersecurity experts in those areas. 
The GAO is really a multidisciplinary organization.
    You know, while we have our roots in financial management, 
still do some of the important work in that area, you need 
someone who has a breadth of knowledge beyond just financial 
management to be able to run GAO effectively and serve the 
Congress going forward.
    You need someone who can maintain our nonpartisan status. 
That is essential to GAO's reputation and effectiveness. We are 
one of the few institutions that are still respected for our 
independence and nonpartisan status on both sides of the aisle 
in both Chambers of Congress. I take great pride in that, and I 
hope that the next Comptroller General can do that.
    Then also you need someone who will be focused on 
accountability within the organization but across Government, 
but also treat our people well. I mean, it is very important. 
You know, one of my emphasis as Comptroller General was to not 
only have our dedicated people--we were always dedicated to the 
quality of our products but not always the same level of 
attention on developing our people, as individuals, as 
professionals. It is very important. I try and put that on a 
par, and I hope the next person recognizes that because they 
are a dedicated, talented workforce, one of the best in the 
world for our type of organization.
    Chairwoman Bice. It sounds like this is a tall order, Mr. 
Dodaro, to find someone to fill your shoes in the future.
    Mr. Dodaro. I am not willing to take another 15-year term. 
My wife----
    Chairwoman Bice. All right. Fair enough.
    You do not want to make it 65 years? I mean, that sounds 
like a good, nice round number.
    Mr. Dodaro. If it was up to me----
    Chairwoman Bice. Let me pivot to another topic if I may.
    One of the Select Committee's recommendations from last 
Congress was that the Committees of jurisdiction should examine 
the underlying statutory authorities for the support agencies 
and determine if they need to be updated or modernized to 
better support your work for Congress.
    In the light of that recommendation and looking at GAO's 
organic statute, which I understand is actually from the 
1970's, do you have any recommendations of where Committees of 
jurisdiction might consider changes or updates to improve the 
agency and enhance your work and strengthen the service to 
Congress?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. There have been selective updates past 
1970. 1980 we were given our own personnel authority, which has 
been terrific. We are not under OPM (Office of Personnel 
Management) rules, regulations. We have a whole different pay 
system that we have had. We are not on a GS (General Schedule) 
system. Up through--the most recent change was 2017 when 
Congress reaffirmed our right to go to court to enforce our 
access authorities if agencies did not give us the information 
that we need in that area.
    You know, my feeling on this is it is very important that 
Congress be very prudent in opening up the legislation for GAO. 
Once you do that, you invite the executive branch to 
participate in the discussion of how they are audited, and our 
independence is very important. You know, because the President 
would have to sign some legislation, they weigh in in that 
process. Now that Congress is in control, we will have to see 
what happens. I think anything that--our authorities right now 
are strong. We are able to do everything we need to do for the 
Congress, and I would encourage the Congress to be very 
careful.
    Chairwoman Bice. OK.
    Mr. Dodaro. GAO is unique, you know, because we have to be 
independent, and that is why we are in the legislative branch.
    Chairwoman Bice. Absolutely.
    Mr. Dodaro. I think--my philosophy is, if there are things 
that Congress would like to have GAO do, we should have a 
dialog about it.
    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you for that. My time has expired, 
so I need to pause there.
    At this time, I recognize Ranking Member Kilmer for 5 
minutes of questioning.
    Mr. Kilmer. Thanks, Madam Chair.
    I am going to try to ask, like, seven questions in 5 
minutes, so all related to the Improving Government for 
America's Taxpayers Act.
    Again, I think the work you do is really important, but it 
is only as important as like we act on. Right? To start, can 
you comment on how most of your recommendations get closed out 
right now?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Most of them are voluntarily adopted by 
the executive branch agencies.
    Mr. Kilmer. OK. What----
    Mr. Dodaro. On average, 77 percent of our recommendations 
are implemented within a 4-year period of time that we make 
them. I send a letter to the head of every department and 
agency every year with open GAO recommendations, prioritize a 
few that I think are most significant.
    Mr. Kilmer. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro. Now, Congress--since 2000, we have issued 1,100 
matters for Congress, directly to Congress to consider; 80 
percent of those have been implemented. There is a couple 
hundred still open; 38 percent of those have been included in 
legislation that has been introduced last Congress and this 
Congress. We are working to get those implemented. It is a 
big--we have a rigorous follow up process.
    Mr. Kilmer. Why do one in five remain open?
    Mr. Dodaro. One in five?
    Mr. Kilmer. You said 80 percent get acted on, 20 percent do 
not.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, right. Well----
    Mr. Kilmer. Is it because they are hard?
    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. Congress is not of like mind.
    Mr. Kilmer. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro. It is hard----
    Mr. Kilmer. What?
    Mr. Dodaro. I know this comes as a shock to you today, but 
sometimes it is tough to get consensus on some of these 
recommendations that we make to the Congress for them in order 
to act because everything we do to the Congress requires 
legislation.
    Mr. Kilmer. Right.
    Mr. Dodaro. The legislation sometimes is slow in coming, 
you know.
    Mr. Kilmer. You mentioned the report that you make to us.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Mr. Kilmer. Are there other things that you are doing to 
try to increase that uptake?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, sure. Yes, one thing we do is we develop 
legislative language. I just testified before the Congress, in 
a 5-hour hearing I might add, on fraud, waste, and abuse coming 
out of the pandemic. I have 10, 12 legislative suggestions. We 
have drafted legislative language, have given it to Committees, 
and are working with them to try and get that implemented to go 
forward. We are very proactive in working with the Committees.
    Now, we report things. The overlap duplication report that 
we have every year I have added cost savings and revenue 
enhancements. That is not even required under the legislation. 
I use that as a platform. There is a report card in there of 
how many recommendations Congress has adopted as opposed to the 
executive branch.
    Mr. Kilmer. Gotcha.
    Mr. Dodaro. You know we report things several times. It is 
in the original report. We reiterate it again in the overlap 
and duplication report. Now we have this third report on open 
matters that we issue to the Congress. The real work gets done 
with us working with the Committees----
    Mr. Kilmer. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. to try and encourage them to do 
legislation.
    The same thing on the executive branch, if the executive 
branch balks, we work with them to try to get legislative 
language and appropriations or authorizations to require the 
executive agencies to implement our recommendations. That 
routinely happens as well.
    Mr. Kilmer. Can you share more about how GAO has 
implemented the new law, the Improving Government for America's 
Taxpayers Act, and whether you have seen any difference in 
terms of how Congress responds to open recommendations?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. It has been not that long since we have 
issued the reports. We have issued two; one where we estimated 
the total cost of implementing our open recommendations, and we 
said it would be between $92 billion and $182 billion if 
Congress implemented those recommendations.
    Now, what we do is we give some idea of the magnitude of 
what the savings would be on our recs--millions, tens of 
millions, a hundred million, billion, tens of billion--and 
because, at the end of the day, the real estimate that counts 
is CBO's (Congressional Budget Office) estimate, and we do not 
wanted to duplicate and get in the business of trying to 
replicate CBO.
    Many times, when we talk to Committees they will say: Well, 
it is nice we have your estimate, but unless we have CBO's 
estimate--now that gets done if it gets in legislative language 
and Congress asks CBO to make the estimate.
    Most of the savings that we report come from third-party 
estimates, you know, about what happens.
    You know, while it is important for us to try to give 
Congress a signal on how much money could be saved, we do not 
want to duplicate CBO. They are the official scorekeeper.
    Mr. Kilmer. I know you are setting up shop in Longworth, 
which I am excited about. I want to just ask ahead of time, 
please do not put a restraining order out against my team. It 
seems like an opportunity to enact some of those 
recommendations around increased staff oversight training----
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Mr. Kilmer [continuing]. and enhancing the customer service 
experience with GAO. Is that the plan?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, that is the plan. It is underway.
    A couple of things I would ask for--and I think that is a 
good idea. We asked years ago to get an office up here in 
Congress. When I started in 1973, we had an office here in the 
Capitol. It was in the basement. It was a nice, cozy place, but 
it was a beachhead. We lost that over the years as things got 
tied up here and a lot of renovations were underway. I think 
that would help.
    What also would help, the last time I was before the Select 
Committee last Congress, I asked--for years I have been trying 
to get into the Orientation Program for New Members, and we 
have not been very successful in doing that. I would ask again 
to do that because I think it is an opportunity to explain what 
GAO could do for individual Members and then their Committee 
assignments as well, and also to get a more prominent marking 
on the House--on the home page, so there is more direction to 
GAO to be able to do that. If the Committee could help us in 
that regard, I think it would be a good idea. We plan to have 
people up here all the time in the office and try to help, and 
we have Find an Expert on Issues planned and Ask a Scientist 
planned, you know, a lot of things----
    Chairwoman Bice. Well, as someone who is passionate about 
the New Member Orientation Program and process and wrote a 
paper on how it should be changed, I now sit as the chair of 
the Subcommittee I think maybe because of that. We will 
certainly take your suggestions into consideration.
    It is my honor to now recognize the chair of the full 
Committee, Chairman Steil, for his 5 minutes' worth of 
questions.
    Chairman Steil. I think we got through about three of Mr. 
Kilmer's seven questions.
    Mr. Kilmer. No. We got through like six.
    Chairman Steil. No, I am teasing. I am teasing you.
    I want to pick up right where Mr. Kilmer was on how we 
integrate the GAO recommendations in the Congress. You have the 
beachhead coming in. You talked about training. Can you talk 
about how you interact with oversight staff--I know you do some 
of that work--and how we should think about that?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. No, we do a lot of work with the oversight 
Committees as well. They are one of our most frequent 
requesters of GAO. They sponsor the high-risk series that we 
have. Now, this is a series that we started in 1990 actually. 
It is probably the longest running bipartisan supported good 
Government effort in our Government's history. What we focused 
on initially was fraud, waste, abuse, and mismanagement in the 
Federal Government. Then it has evolved over time to also be on 
transformation.
    We update the list at the beginning of each new Congress, 
and we focus on recommendations in that area. I always appear 
as I did in February--or I think it was March--April maybe this 
year to unveil the updating of the list in that area, and that 
leads to a lot of savings. Areas on the list are, like, 
Medicare, Medicaid. We have got a payment problem in the 
Federal Government, overpayments, since we work with Congress 
to require them to be reported. They are $2.4 trillion. Last 
year, it was $242 trillion alone. Fraud during the pandemic was 
epic. We just issued a report that just in the unemployment 
insurance area alone, there is $100 billion to $135 billion.
    Chairman Steil. To dig into--so let me take that and just 
shift gears slightly----
    Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
    Chairman Steil [continuing]. because I hold your concern. 
Actually, I hold it for how the EV tax credits are going to be 
paid as we go into 2024 with car dealers being the 
determination and sending the money. I think that is ripe for 
fraud. That is a whole separate conversation.
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Chairman Steil [continuing]. is we look at your uptake of 
20 percent remain open. We are conflicted; maybe not everyone 
agrees. Could you just give a little more color as to why we 
are at one out of five not being implemented?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Chairman Steil. I accept that not everybody is going to 
agree 100 percent with everything that is put out by you.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I will give you a couple good examples of 
some big ticket ones that I think could be. For a number of 
years--and I have been reiterating this over and over again--in 
the Medicare program, if you go in for evaluation services and 
you go to a doctor associated with a hospital as opposed to 
going to a doctor in their own private practice in a separate 
commercial building, the Government pays you more for the 
doctor in the--if you equalize that, you would save $141 
billion over 10 years. This is CBO's estimate.
    You know, healthcare has got a lobby, and it is no surprise 
to anybody, and it is tough to change some of the rules in 
healthcare. A lot of our recommendations open are in 
healthcare.
    Chairman Steil. Are some of these recommendations then rule 
changes that Congress has to enact?
    Mr. Dodaro. Absolutely.
    Chairman Steil. Congress is actually the block, not a 
Federal Government agency that is failing to act?
    Mr. Dodaro. You said ``block,'' not me.
    Chairman Steil. No, you are right.
    Mr. Dodaro. It requires----
    Chairman Steil [continuing]. disagree or not implement the 
recommendation.
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Chairman Steil. It is the legislative side is some of this 
20 percent rather than a Federal Government agency that you 
identify----
    Mr. Dodaro. It is a mix. It is a mix, but it is some.
    Chairman Steil [continuing]. for making false payments. You 
are making payments change X to Y.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, right, right, right. Yes, some require 
legislation. Most of the big dollar amounts require legislative 
changes.
    On the administrative side, the problem we have had 
cybersecurity. All right. I designated cybersecurity a high-
risk area across the entire Federal Government. The first time 
we ever did that, 1997. We have issued thousands of 
recommendations. Many of the open recommendations now are in 
the cybersecurity area, more on protecting critical 
infrastructure protection that I added in 2003. The agencies 
are slow to implement these things. That is why I have 
prioritized the recommendations to them.
    We are now meeting with--our team meeting with the 
Secretary of Agriculture Vilsack, for example, on a quarterly 
basis to go over open recommendations. We do that at CMS. The 
CMS and Defense have the lowest record of implementation rates, 
and I have talked to them. We are working on that, meeting with 
them on a more ongoing basis.
    There is a culture in some of the agencies where it is just 
difficult to get change in place, and DOD is one of them.
    Chairman Steil. Understood.
    Thank you for your time, for being here.
    I know there is a lot of people on your broader team at GAO 
that work incredibly hard. Thanks to them as well. Nobody can 
do anything without a good team behind them.
    Mr. Dodaro. Absolutely.
    Chairman Steil. I know you have a lot of great men and 
women that are dedicated to rooting out waste, fraud, and 
abuse. There is work we can do to continue to modernize GAO, 
but appreciate you being here.
    I now yield back, Madam Chair.
    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I recognize myself for 5 minutes for additional 
questioning.
    I want to start by just touching on a couple of quick 
things. You mentioned your excitement around putting in an 
office in Longworth to be able to sort of highlight the work 
that GAO does, and I think that is important. I do want to ask 
you what other avenues you are looking at to try to build 
awareness and maybe bridge that awareness gap that currently 
exists.
    While I will tell you that certainly we will take the 
consideration of putting your information into the New Member 
Orientation, the reality is there are a lot of people that want 
time in those meetings, and it becomes a competition in some 
ways of, you know, what is a priority.
    What I would tell you is I am not sure that I have a lot of 
awareness of what GAO did or does until maybe the last year or 
so. For me, knowing now the reporting and, you know, 
information that you are providing is incredibly crucial. I 
want to help you do that, but I would also like to know sort of 
how you are addressing that issue.
    The second point I want to make is maybe one of more of a 
little bit of a concern. You mentioned that you are focused on 
being nonpartisan. That is important to you. You also said in 
your comments that you have developed some legislative 
suggestions. Where did that directive come from?
    Mr. Dodaro. In terms of developing legislative language? 
Well, we do it in two cases. One, we are asked to by some of 
the Committees.
    Chairwoman Bice. OK.
    Mr. Dodaro. In areas that are GAO, you know, sort of 
hallmark areas, like fraud, waste, and abuse, you know, I have 
done that as a service in those areas, but only in those areas. 
We do not get into policy areas or issues associated with that 
unless we are asked to. Sometimes we provide drafting 
legislative language to the Committees without any, you know, 
attribution to GAO. It is just done as a service to them.
    Chairwoman Bice. Perfect. I think I just want to be 
cautious about that. Right? If you are providing legislative 
suggestions, you could be--it could be perceived as you are 
being partisan in one way or another, and I think that is 
something that we want to try to avoid.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. I only do it where--this, what I referred 
to, is on fraud, and fraud is----
    Chairwoman Bice. Bipartisan issue.
    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. bipartisan issue I think.
    Chairwoman Bice. I would hope so.
    Mr. Dodaro. Nobody is supporting fraud. They want to fix 
fraud.
    Chairwoman Bice. Exactly.
    Mr. Dodaro. I only do it in those sort of safe harbor 
areas.
    Chairwoman Bice. OK. Thank you for clarifying.
    Mr. Dodaro. Sure.
    Chairwoman Bice. You want to talk a little bit about 
addressing the awareness gap.
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, yes. We have an Office of Congressional 
Relations. They outreach to the Committees. One of the things 
that is----
    Chairwoman Bice. Let us talk about individual offices 
because I think the Committees is great----
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes.
    Chairwoman Bice. [continuing]. and I think that is 
important. I think that there is so much value----
    Mr. Dodaro. Right.
    Chairwoman Bice. [continuing]. in actually connecting with 
individual offices, especially as an appropriator myself, you 
provide a lot of information. I do not know that maybe that is 
a place that has been a focus, but----
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, you know, we sent letters to all 80 
new Members this year with a link to GAO, had a message on 
there about how they could get access to our services or 
whatever.
    What has happened over the years, as I looked up--when I 
first joined GAO, we had over 5,000 people. OK. We have got 
about 3,500 right now. We--our priorities and protocols that we 
have worked out with the Congress is to do work based upon--
priority one is things in law or Committee or conference 
reports accompanying the law. Two is chairs and Ranking 
Members. We treat both the same. Then third is requests from an 
individual Member of Congress.
    We have not had any--enough resources to entertain that for 
a while. The Members have to go to--the individual Members 
would have to go to a Committee to get support to get a GAO 
report. That was not always that way.
    Chairwoman Bice. OK.
    Mr. Dodaro. We had more reason to interact with the Members 
before, and they had more interest in receiving information 
from us, so----
    Chairwoman Bice. Well, I think that you all provide such a 
valuable service. I understand what you are saying about 
challenges, but----
    Mr. Dodaro. I think what could be done to be helpful would 
be for this Committee to encourage other Committees to at least 
within the Committee to have a meeting about what GAO is doing 
for the Committee and what all of the Members are on the 
Committee because right now it is usually the chair or Ranking 
Member or both that understand what is going on with their 
staff. The individuals on--the Members of that Committee may 
not be aware of GAO's extensive work for the Committee in on 
more fulsome manner.
    Chairwoman Bice. Perfect.
    Mr. Dodaro. We will try to continue to meet with individual 
Members' offices to try to provide the services.
    Chairwoman Bice. Great. Thank you.
    Mr. Dodaro. Whatever ideas you have there would be helpful.
    Chairwoman Bice. Last, I want to pivot to GAO detailees, 
which has become quite a fun topic for us in the office. Can 
you talk a little bit about currently how many GAO detailees 
are out in the field with placements either in the House or the 
Senate? Have these numbers changed over time?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes. Well, we try to keep it around 12 or 14 
people right now. Historically----
    Chairwoman Bice. How long are they typically detailed to?
    Mr. Dodaro. By law they can only be detailed to Committees 
for up to a year.
    Chairwoman Bice. OK. Is that how long you typically have 
them there is a year?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, yes.
    Chairwoman Bice. OK.
    Mr. Dodaro. Sometimes it will go for 6 months. Then, you 
know, if we get requests to go longer than a year, we have to 
have a conversation, you know. In the 1980's, you know, when we 
had many more people, we had many more detailees.
    Chairwoman Bice. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro. That is an area that can be discussed----
    Chairwoman Bice. OK.
    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. and it is very important. The 
perception is what we try to do is balance it because, on 
Committees, if you put one on one side of the aisle, you have 
to probably do it on the other side.
    Chairwoman Bice. Absolutely, OK.
    Mr. Dodaro. You do not have that perception of trying to 
tip, you know, the balance of resources that is determined by 
the majority and the minority----
    Chairwoman Bice. Got it.
    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. rules of the Congress.
    Chairwoman Bice. My time has expired, so I am going to wrap 
up there.
    I am going to recognize Ranking Member Kilmer for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Kilmer. Thanks, Madam Chair.
    When we were walking in, we were talking about unusual 
times here in the Nation's Capitol. I am just curious, what 
happens to your agency in the event of a Government shutdown?
    Mr. Dodaro. You know, we keep a core group of people--
historically, we keep a core group of people here to help 
Congress make the final decisions they need to make to get the 
Government back open. That includes our appropriation law 
people who render legal decisions on what is appropriate and 
not appropriate to do during a shutdown.
    By and large, we stop the work. I mean, there is only two 
exceptions to the Antideficiency Act. One is to protect life, 
and the other is to protect property. We protect our property.
    Now, this year, we have some money that is multiyear money, 
and so, like, to oversee accountability of the money being sent 
to the Ukraine. We still have coronavirus money, pandemic money 
for that program and Infrastructure Investment Inflation 
Reduction Act. We will be able to continue some selective 
audits but only because we have multiyear money----
    Mr. Kilmer. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. and not 1-year money. Everything 
else gets shut down.
    Now, if Congress holds a hearing, we would bring people 
back. We would bring the teams back. We react to what Congress' 
needs are. Other than that--and we have to be careful because 
we are the ones who render legal decisions on whether other 
agencies across the entire Federal Government follow the law--
--
    Mr. Kilmer. Right.
    Mr. Dodaro [continuing]. during a shutdown practice.
    Mr. Kilmer. OK. Well, I like that $145 return per dollar 
invested. I hope we keep you running.
    You know, one of the things we have talked a bit about both 
on the Modernization Committee and on this Subcommittee is 
artificial intelligence and its potential to help Members and 
staff and support agency staff do their job more efficiently 
and effectively.
    One topic that I guess came up in our CRS (Congressional 
Research Service) hearing is having AI generate bill summaries; 
then having a human check to ensure nonpartisan summaries exist 
for all of the bills Congress considers that might reduce some 
of the workload.
    Can you just share with the Committee about how GAO sees 
the potential for AI in terms of the expertise it can offer 
Congress, how the agency is using AI itself in its own day-to-
day work?
    Mr. Dodaro. Yes, yes. It has a lot of potential, but, like, 
with a lot of things, it has risks. You know, new technologies 
have risks associated with them as well, both legal, ethical 
and, you know, accuracy kind of risk.
    Mr. Kilmer. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro. We are--we have an innovation lab that we 
created as part of our science, technology, analytics work. 
They are doing two things: One, to help us figure out how to 
audit AI in other agencies. We are looking now across 
Government--of the use of AI across the Government. We have 
done a lot of work at DOD, for example, as they try to ramp up 
to meet competition from China and other areas.
    They have created an accountability framework of how we can 
look at governance, data performance, and monitoring issues. We 
have criteria now so that we can audit AI.
    We are also looking at how we can use AI within GAO. We 
have vast amounts of information, to make it more accessible 
both to GAO people, and once we can demonstrate the use, we 
have a large language model that we brought in right now. We 
are looking at loading all of GAO reports. I mean, we have 
thousands of reports over the years. You know, that information 
could be queried in a much more sophisticated way. Then, once 
we demonstrate the ability to do that, that we are satisfied 
that it is accurate, making that available to the Congress and 
all of the staff in the Congress so they could query, you know, 
questions and go directly to that data base of GAO that would 
not be populated by other things. You know, all of our 
information is reliable and accurate and verified.
    Those are a couple of applications. I think there are other 
things that could be done where we could use AI to improve how 
we audit. Mostly I am also preparing for what we audit.
    Mr. Kilmer. Yes.
    Mr. Dodaro. That is important as well so we can give the 
Congress--we are also providing--that is an area we are 
providing technical assistance in the development of 
legislation. Part of regulating it is first defining it, and 
there is a definition that is in the NDAA from 2019, but it is 
pretty broad, and so we have been giving a lot of assistance to 
the Congress.
    In our lab, we have technologists. We have data science 
people, and then we also have people who have worked in 
actually developing AI models in the private sector or maybe 
elsewhere in the Government.
    Mr. Kilmer. Super.
    Thanks, Madam Chair. I yield back.
    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you.
    We want to give you a huge thank you for being with us this 
morning. I appreciate your testimony and your time and look 
forward to continuing to working with you in the future.
    Thank you, Mr. Dodaro.
    At this time, we will pause to move to our second panel of 
witnesses.
    Mr. Dodaro. Thank you very much.
    Chairwoman Bice. Excellent. I will now introduce the second 
panel of witnesses.
    Our first witness, Dr. Tim Persons, served as the GAO's 
chief scientist and as a co-director of the Science, 
Technology, Assessment, and Analytics Team until his departure 
in 2023. Dr. Persons provides knowledge and expertise of how 
STAA was created, its successes, and how GAO could be enhanced 
moving forward.
    Dr. Persons is a partner with PricewaterhouseCoopers, where 
he leads the development of innovative assurance solutions for 
clients in artificial intelligence and machine learning, data, 
algorithms, and other digital transformations.
    Welcome.
    Next, we welcome Mr. James-Christian Blockwood, who 
formerly served as the managing director of the Strategic 
Planning and External Liaison Office at GAO. During his tenure, 
Mr. Blockwood was responsible for creating GAO's strategic plan 
and helped GAO identify future trends that might be of interest 
to Congress.
    Currently, Mr. Blockwood serves as the executive vice 
president of the Partnership for Public Service.
    Finally, we welcome Mr. Dan Lips, who currently serves as 
head of policy for the Foundation for American Innovation, an 
organization focused on developing technology, talent, and 
ideas that support a better, freer, and more abundant future. 
Mr. Lips' research focuses on improving governance, addressing 
national security risks, and promoting innovation.
    Thank you to our second panel of witnesses for being with 
us today.
    Please remember to press the button on the microphone in 
front of you so that the green light is on. When you speak, the 
timer will begin. After 4 minutes, the timer will turn yellow. 
When the red light comes on, your 5 minutes have expired, and 
we would ask you to kindly wrap up.
    Now, at this time, I recognize Dr. Tim Persons for 5 
minutes.

 STATEMENTS OF TIM PERSONS, PRINCIPAL, PRICEWATERHOUSECOOPERS 
   LLP; JAMES-CHRISTIAN BLOCKWOOD, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, 
 PARTNERSHIP FOR PUBLIC SERVICE; AND DAN LIPS, HEAD OF POLICY, 
            FOUNDATION FOR AMERICAN INNOVATION (FAI)

                    STATEMENT OF TIM PERSONS

    Mr. Persons. Thank you, Chairwoman Bice, Ranking Member 
Kilmer, and Members of the Committee. I appreciate the 
opportunity to speak today about the modernization of GAO and 
the legislative support agencies, as well as the importance of 
building science and technology capacity and capabilities for 
the Congress.
    The GAO has been a vital institution, as you know, for over 
a century, strengthening congressional oversight, ensuring 
efficiency and accountability in Government operations. Its 
commitment to accountability, integrity, and reliability have 
made it one of the most trusted public sector brands in the 
world.
    My remarks this morning are strictly my own and based upon 
my 14.5 years as GAO's chief scientist, the highest regard I 
have for both GAO and Congress, and my three decades of 
experience in AI, digital technologies, and innovation.
    We are currently witnessing an unprecedented acceleration 
in the impacts of S&T. In just the past 36 months, we have 
experienced some of the fastest and most powerful technology 
revolutions in human history, Messenger RNA, fusion ignition, 
and generative AI are just some examples. ChatGBT itself, which 
has come up earlier in the discussions, is reshaping business, 
society, the Government, and doing it at an unprecedented rate. 
It reached 100 million users in a mere 60 days.
    These are just a few examples illustrating the need for the 
shift in the clock speed of GAO and the legislative support 
agencies, the concept referring to the rate at which change may 
occur within an industry or organization to avoid obsolescence.
    GAO's recent track record in innovation is encouraging, 
reestablishing technology assessment, creating 2-page S&T 
Spotlights delivered in weeks, establishing the STAA and the 
innovation lab within it. There is much to commend as part of 
its mission to be a leading practices Federal agency.
    Nevertheless, to quote the inside GAO joke about the 
standard pattern of every one of its reports, is progress made 
but more could be done.
    In this era of digital disruption, it is imperative the GAO 
and our legislative support agencies modernize processes, 
technologies, skills, and cultures not merely to keep pace with 
the rapidly evolving landscape but rather to transform with 
nimbleness and agility to deliver their increasingly important 
professional services in an anticipatory, content-centric, 
user-experience-focused manner.
    The centrality of digital and data to GAO's mission and 
others cannot be overstated. To ensure their success, it is 
crucial that they develop and deploy state-of-the-art data 
governance and digitally driven capability transformations with 
decisive alacrity.
    Evolutionary or half-step measures, those seemingly safer, 
are not and will not be enough to keep the major risks of 
irrelevance and obsolescence at bay. They must transform in 
accordance with their distinct missions yet with a serious 
reexamination of their content-generation operations and 
delivery systems, their current authorities, their investment 
plans, human resourcing, and training strategies.
    Moreover, the ever-increasing volume and complexity of data 
will likely require regular updates to data policies and 
statutes and the establishment of key partnerships with 
entities like the congressional Data Task Force. They must also 
be provided with the necessary leadership and innovation oxygen 
to succeed in their campaigns, all to provide content and 
analysis at depth and at speed in support of the desired 
evidence-based policymaking or EBP ecosystem for the Congress. 
Imagine, for example, a digital dashboard tool where a large 
language model technology might support just-in-time content 
and insight for EBP based on data and content provided in part 
by the GAO and other agencies.
    Just today an article is being published in ``Nature'' 
describing how GPTs may be used to produce high-quality first 
drafts of policy briefs, like Spotlights, ones that can be 
customized for particular jurisdictions or Members and 
delivered in minutes and hours versus days and weeks. It is 
related exactly to what Mr. Kilmer asked earlier.
    Digital technology-driven modernization transformation and 
increased S&T capacity are not possible without the necessary 
staff to envision, design, implement, and manage the desired 
changes. Thus, in addition to authorizing the STAA in 
recognition of the expanding services it provides, I endorse 
the implementation of option 3 of the 2019 NAPA report, which 
recommends the establishment of the Office of the congressional 
S&T Advisor. This development would provide a powerful 
framework for collaboration and coordination in the legislative 
branch in support of S&T issues in solving what is the core 
challenge, namely, the need for greater absorption in that.
    To conclude, many thanks are due to this Committee for its 
continued efforts to modernize GAO and the legislative branch. 
Now is the time for decisive business transformation in 
digital, including data governance, in support of EBP. 
Authorizing STAA and establishing the OCSTA can ensure that 
Congress is supported by best available rapidly and organically 
integrated S&T personnel and insights.
    Thank you. I will be happy to answer questions.
    [The prepared statement of Tim Persons follows:]

               PREPARED STATEMENT OF TIM PERSONS

[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairwoman Bice. You saw me about to drop the gavel, didn't 
you?
    Mr. Persons. Yes.
    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you, Dr. Persons. Appreciate it.
    Next it is my honor to welcome Mr. James-Christian 
Blockwood for 5 minutes of testimony. You are recognized.

             STATEMENT OF JAMES-CHRISTIAN BLOCKWOOD

    Mr. Blockwood. Chairwoman Bice, Ranking Member Kilmer, and 
Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the invitation to 
participate in today's hearing.
    As the Chairwoman mentioned, I am the executive vice 
president of the Partnership for Public Service, a nonpartisan, 
nonprofit dedicated to increasing the efficiency and 
effectiveness of the Federal Government. I will also offer a 
perspective during my time when I was at GAO as a senior 
executive.
    There is a declining trust in Government and institutions 
more broadly, and our Nation is sharply divided along partisan 
lines, unfortunately. GAO is one of Congress' greatest tools 
for fostering an agile, effective, trusted, and transparent 
Government ready to face future challenges. I applaud the 
ongoing efforts of this Subcommittee to ensure our legislative 
branch agencies are prepared and equipped to respond.
    As I discuss in more detail in my written statement, there 
are several areas of consideration as this Subcommittee seeks 
to support GAO in its efforts to provide more modern solutions 
and services.
    First and foremost, GAO must continue to uphold a 
nonpartisan approach to its work and organizational culture. 
GAO serves all Members of Congress and must always be a 
stronghold for credible analysis and findings, protect its 
independence, and avoid even the appearance of impropriety or 
favor. This function cannot succeed without a full commitment 
to nonpartisanship.
    Looking forward, Congress and the administration should 
prioritize an unwavering commitment to nonpartisanship in the 
candidate for Comptroller General when they next appoint and 
confirm this position.
    Second, the Subcommittee should explore investing in and 
expanding the authorities and capabilities of GAO. Given 
growing Government spending, complexity of management 
challenges, high risk of fraud, and recent passage of 
multibillion dollar legislation, Congress should, one, increase 
the size and capacity of GAO's forensic audits and 
investigative service and help agencies adopt a fraud-
prevention culture; second, consider an appropriation for GAO's 
Center for Audit Excellence to provide greater accountability 
for Federal funds dispersed across the country, as well as 
abroad; and, third, strengthen GAO's ability to ensure follow 
up of open recommendations by authority and through a dynamic 
interactive dashboard or other platform.
    A third area of investment in GAO's capacity to address 
emerging issues is strategic foresight. Strategic foresight 
helps improve understanding of an organization's external 
environment, mitigate risk, and take advantage of opportunities 
ahead. GAO has already created several offices and functions to 
engage in this work. However, more investment may be required 
to advance its trend monitoring, strategic foresight, and 
science and technology capacity, particularly as it relates to 
better understanding generative AI, highlighting policy 
implications of AI to lawmakers, and auditing the Federal use 
of AI.
    Fourth, GAO should invest in customer experience. A key 
tenet of a modernized organization is understanding its 
customers and how they experience services. Customer service is 
a direct and immediate interaction between a customer and the 
service provider. Customer experience reflects the holistic 
journey of the customer within the organization and focuses on 
fostering engagement. As such, GAO should look to best 
practices in customer experience to build on its voice of the 
client work and more explicitly expand its view of its customer 
to include the American public. It should ensure greater 
investment in IT and digital technologies to help make reports 
more accessible, as well as innovative, visual, and digestible; 
explore and actually go beyond that and commit to its onsite 
presence within congressional office buildings to provide 
Congress with greater access to needed expertise.
    Fifth, Congress should consider the development of 
coordinated, consolidated, and curated information. GAO and 
other legislative branch agencies serve as the in-house experts 
on virtually every topic Congress may need to consider on all 
of those topics. However, this information is not curated and 
can overlap and often contains gaps. Congress should explore 
formally merging some of these capabilities or whether GAO is 
positioned to serve as a clearinghouse and coordinator for 
reports and information from across the legislative branch.
    Finally, GAO must have access to the full range of data 
necessary to do its work. Agencies may not always provide GAO 
with complete access to data. Congress must ensure readily and 
open access for GAO through additional authorities or guidance 
to agencies. With enhanced access to data, GAO can explore 
real-time audit capability and gain insight from an agency 
perspective.
    The future calls for greater transparency, accountability, 
and modernization across Government. GAO is a leading practices 
agency with a proven return on investment. Focusing on 
investments and modernizing the work that GAO already does well 
will help it continue to serve Congress, agencies, and the 
American people.
    Thank you for the opportunity to speak today, and I look 
forward to continuing the conversation on Government 
effectiveness and modernization.
    [The prepared statement of James-Christian Blockwood 
follows:]

        PREPARED STATEMENT OF JAMES-CHRISTIAN BLOCKWOOD

[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you very much, Mr. Blockwood. I 
would love to put you in charge of some agencies that need 
help.
    Anyway, at this time, it is my honor to recognize Mr. Dan 
Lips for 5 minutes of his testimony. Mr. Lips.

                     STATEMENT OF DAN LIPS

    Mr. Lips. Chairwoman Bice, Ranking Member Kilmer, Members 
of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify.
    As the Chairwoman mentioned, my name is Dan Lips. I am the 
head of policy at the Foundation for American Innovation. I 
previously served on the staff of the Senate Homeland Security 
and Governmental Affairs Committee.
    My testimony will focus on opportunities to increase GAO's 
return on investment, improve Government efficiency, and 
achieve taxpayer savings.
    Over the past 20 years, as we have heard today, GAO's work 
has resulted in $1.3 trillion in savings. With less than $12 
billion in appropriations during that time, that means that 
every dollar that Congress has provided to GAO has resulted in 
more than $100 in savings. This is a really impressive track 
record, but given the $33 trillion national debt and the 
challenging fiscal outlook, Congress and this Subcommittee 
should be considering ways to increase GAO's ROI.
    Last year GAO reported that 77 percent of its 
recommendations were implemented within 4 years. We are 
slightly below its target of 80 percent. Today, GAO reports 
that there are 5,000 open recommendations, and about a quarter 
of these recommendations were made more than 4 years ago. This 
is important because, according to GAO, recommendations not 
made within 4 years are less likely to be implemented.
    Congress and the Subcommittee I think need to ask two 
questions. First, how can Congress help the hardworking people 
at GAO increase their ROI by making sure their nonpartisan 
reform recommendations are addressed in a timely manner? 
Second, what could the Government save if all of GAO's 
recommendations, open recommendations, were implemented?
    Thanks to the Modernization Committee, Congress enacted a 
law in December raising these issues. The Improving Government 
for America's Taxpayers Act, sponsored by Representative Kilmer 
and Representative Timmons, requires GAO to streamline its open 
recommendations for Congress, describe additional oversight and 
legislative actions that are needed, and, importantly, estimate 
potential cost savings of unimplemented priority 
recommendations.
    In addition, report language accompanying the Fiscal Year 
2023 omnibus required GAO to estimate the potential savings 
that could be achieved if all open GAO recommendations were 
implemented. This year GAO answered these new congressional 
mandates with two reports. The first explained that, based on a 
statistical analysis, implementing the 5,000 open 
recommendations would save between $92 billion and $182 
billion.
    In this report, GAO also excited a single open 
recommendation that could save $141 billion. The Comptroller 
General discussed this in his questioning. Including this in 
this report, asking for a summary of what could be saved across 
the board, suggests that the potential savings from answering 
all open recommendations would be much greater than the upper 
bound estimate of $182 billion.
    The second report answering the Kilmer-Timmons bill 
consolidated open matters for congressional consideration and 
provided some limited examples of potential cost savings that 
could be achieved. Now, these are valuable reports, but GAO did 
not detail all of the open recommendations that could achieve 
cost savings or offer new recommendations for legislative and 
oversight actions.
    Building on the Modernization Committee's enacted 
recommendations in the 117th, Congress should consider new ways 
to increase GAO's ROI.
    In my written testimony, I offered six recommendations, but 
I will highlight three for the Subcommittee here. First, 
Congress should require GAO to fully answer the Improving 
Government for America's Taxpayers Act. While GAO will likely 
be unable to provide estimates for each open recommendation, 
specifically identifying all open recommendations that could 
achieve cost savings and providing more options for Congress to 
implement them would be a win for American taxpayers.
    Second, Congress should require GAO to include target 
completion dates or deadlines when issuing new recommendations. 
Deloitte analysts actually recommended this change back in a 
2015 report. Setting deadlines would improve transparency, 
strengthen accountability, and help GAO increase its 4-year 
implementation rate and ROI.
    Third, Congress should better leverage GAO's ongoing 
oversight of Federal misspending. Federal agencies made $247 
billion in improper payments last year, including roughly $200 
billion in overpayments. Recent Appropriations Committee report 
language required GAO to report quarterly on improper payments. 
Congress should hold hearings and work with GAO to force 
Federal agencies to end the Federal Government's misspending.
    To close, I urge Congress and the Modernization 
Subcommittee to reauthorize GAO, consistent with the Select 
Committee's recommendations to reauthorize congressional 
support agencies. Reauthorizing GAO would allow Congress and 
its watchdog to work together to give GAO the necessary 
authorities it needs, ensure that GAO's work aligns with 
congressional priorities, and improve Government efficiency for 
American taxpayers.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to testify.
    [The prepared statement of Dan Lips follows:]

                 PREPARED STATEMENT OF DAN LIPS

[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you, Mr. Lips.
    At this time, we will now question the witnesses, beginning 
with myself, followed by the Ranking Member, and we will 
alternate back and forth. Any Member wishing to be recognized 
should signal their request to the chair.
    Now I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    Again, I want to thank you all for being with us this 
morning.
    Dr. Persons, I want to start with you. You know, we talked 
a little bit about statutory authorities within the GAO, and 
there is a conversation happening around giving--I am sorry--
recommending that they authorize STAA. Can you talk a little 
bit about that and why you think that is so important?
    Mr. Persons. Yes. Thanks, Chairwoman Bice.
    The main reason is that the STAA, as it has evolved--and it 
has been established, but the missions and the functions--it 
continues to have added expanded mission space to it starting 
with technology assessments in addition to the audits that it 
does. It has a widening spectrum. Now, especially inclusive of 
the innovation lab, which you heard the Comptroller General 
mention that they are moving things forward, but there is, I 
think, a need for those resources to be expanded and recognized 
as special.
    Part of this just is informed by the fact that every year 
that I was chief scientist there, the Congress had language in 
the conference report or others usually about pushing more and 
more technology assessments, science and technology, et cetera.
    It is really about the establishment of the more and the 
broader spectrum of things. It also gives the team an identity 
of where it can avoid jurisdictional issues. For example, STAA 
does things that are technology focused, sometimes involving 
IT. We also have an IT and cybersecurity team, as the 
Comptroller General alluded to, that we want to make sure that 
STAA would be able to do things that allow the ITC Team at GAO 
to do its work in cybersecurity in an oversight capacity 
primarily but then also to be able to do other work.
    It really is about more and the broader spectrum of work 
that they need to do.
    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you.
    Mr. Blockwood, let me move to you. You mentioned in your 
testimony, you talked about a clearinghouse for reports. Can 
you maybe expound on that a little bit more? I know, you know, 
we are sort of looking at all of the functions across support 
agencies as a whole and trying to determine is there overlap; 
is there duplicity; are there ways that we can streamline?
    You know, do we need a clearinghouse? Do we need to maybe 
combine agencies? Tell me a little bit more about your thought 
process on that.
    Mr. Blockwood. Yes, thank you for the question.
    I mean, I think there are two ways to look at this. You 
know, at first, I would start with the context of, you know, 
Congress is one of the most advised bodies in the world or 
anywhere and receives a lot of information from a lot of 
different inputs. You have information coming from the 
legislative branch agencies. You have external experts. As you 
go to look for information or recommendations, you would want 
to be able to do that in a singular place, and that can happen 
potentially through a dashboard or a way of compiling 
information.
    One way that I would respond to your question is, you know, 
you could create a dashboard or a platform that puts customers 
first and Congress first, thinking about what it needs. It 
could work iteratively so that it can change over time to think 
about what those changes might--what those needs might be when 
it changes. It could look at data quality and what you are 
actually receiving, and it could focus on really the outcome 
and not necessarily the process. It is not the data base 
itself, but it is what is in it and how Congress uses it.
    The second thing is to look at all the different or 
potential overlap that the different agencies have. CRS may 
provide information to individual Members, may provide things 
at a speed to which is necessary in a fast-moving environment. 
GAO may provide information that is longer in depth, may be 
more evidence based, and has a more rigor and methodological 
approach to it.
    CBO might provide estimates on particular legislation or 
economic outcomes.
    Chairwoman Bice. Do you think that it would be--that 
Congress should take under consideration combining some of 
these entities and collapsing them?
    Mr. Blockwood. I would certainly recommend exploring 
whether merging agencies or collapsing certain capabilities 
would make sense, and I think looking at an external entity 
like the National Academy of Public Administration to do a 
study as to what those benefits to Congress might be would 
certainly be encouraged.
    Chairwoman Bice. Excellent.
    At this time, I am going to throw it over to Mr. Lips.
    Your recent article published in The Hill critiques the 
GAO's implementation of two modernization recommendations. How 
do you think the GAO could do a better job of implementation in 
the future?
    Mr. Lips. I think the big key would be to fully answer the 
mandates in the Improving Government for America's Taxpayers 
Act and specifically to break out all of those open 
recommendations, 5,000 in the case of the appropriations report 
language requirement, around 500 in the case of the Kilmer-
Timmons bill, and go through them and estimate where the cost 
savings will be the biggest. Where can Congress get the biggest 
bang for the buck? They may not be able to provide an estimate, 
as we heard today, for all of them, but they can provide them 
for some.
    From my experience, my former boss, Senator Tom Coburn, 
passed the mandate that established the annual report on 
duplication. That work, as we have heard, has been--resulted in 
$600 billion in savings over the past 12 years.
    It is important to know--according to his former staff, I 
was not working with him at the same time--GAO did not want to 
do that work until they were mandated by law. They were asked 
to do it. They did not want to do it, and so he passed an 
amendment to a debt ceiling bill, and since then, Comptroller 
General Dodaro has called that reporting requirement the gift 
that keeps on giving.
    I think they need to be pushed sometimes to deliver what 
Congress wants.
    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you for mentioning the late Dr. 
Coburn, who I had the pleasure of getting to know briefly 
before his passing.
    At this time, I will yield 5 minutes to my colleague and 
Ranking Member, Mr. Kilmer.
    Mr. Kilmer. Thanks, Madam Chair.
    Mr. Lips, I do not know if you want to add anything further 
about additional actions that need to be taken as we are trying 
to get more of these recommendations closed out and 
specifically making sure that GAO implements the law we just 
passed.
    Mr. Lips. I think that it would be valuable. Thank you for 
the question and for your leadership of that important bill and 
the recommendations from the Select Committee.
    I think that one of the really great things about that bill 
is that it asked for additional guidance for Congress to pursue 
legislative and oversight actions, really pressing them to 
provide that, pressing for that list, as I mentioned, of where 
the real savings could be. It is a case of Congress wanting to 
help GAO help itself, so the more pressure that you can apply 
and to really get them to respond could be a great win for 
American taxpayers.
    Mr. Kilmer. I want to ask Mr. Blockwood. You know, we have 
heard about GAO being consistently rated one of the best 
Federal agencies at which to work. Why do you think that is the 
case? Are there any strategies that GAO is using that we should 
think about encouraging other support agencies to use or even 
Congress to use?
    Mr. Blockwood. Yes, thank you. I mean, there is no secret 
that GAO has been No. 1 in its category for the last 3 years 
and the top five for the last 15, and a driver of that is 
employee engagement. It does not happen on accident. It is very 
intentional. Increasing employee engagement and involving them 
in decisionmaking, having continuous and really effective 
communication, creating time and space for innovation for 
employees, creating interpersonal relationships, and, very 
specifically, looking at different subsets of the employee and 
hearing what their needs might be, and, importantly, 
leadership. AI would recognize the current Comptroller General, 
Gene Dodaro, and his leadership for employee engagement, as 
well as the Executive Committee and all the senior executives 
across GAO, really foster an environment that allow for that 
employee engagement.
    That is the main driver of why they are best places to work 
and a leading best practice agency.
    Mr. Kilmer. Is there anything systematically that--you 
know, as a Committee that has passed recommendations 
encouraging support agencies to do X, Y, and Z, is there 
anything specific, if you were asked, you would say, hey, we 
ought to encourage all agencies, or even Congress itself, to do 
X, Y, or Z?
    Mr. Blockwood. You know, I might offer two recommendations 
there.
    Mr. Kilmer. Sure.
    Mr. Blockwood. One is in the leadership of those agencies: 
when they are selected, how they are selected, and making sure 
you have the commitment up front.
    Then, two, making sure that there is follow up. The 
Partnership for Public Service certainly has our best places to 
work in Federal Government rankings. We offer briefings on how 
to improve some of that employee engagement for agencies that 
may not be meeting the mark, and we also offer bright spots and 
promising practices for those that are doing really well and 
encouraging those agencies to work with the Partnership for 
Public Service, as well as other agencies, and leading OPM 
officials to understand how they can better engage public 
servants.
    Mr. Kilmer. I want to just invite--you know, obviously, our 
Committee, our Subcommittee is focused on modernization. Are 
there any particular challenges that you see facing GAO in the 
coming years in terms of building its capacity? Anything you 
think we ought to be thinking about, and specifically with 
regard to modernizing GAO so it is ready to take on the next 
challenges?
    Mr. Persons. Yes. Thank you, sir.
    I think that a lot of the focus on--if we are thinking 
about digital transformation and data modernization sort of 
things, we really do have to think about at least having a look 
at the authorities that are there with respect to usage of 
data, especially as you are collecting data in sort of a 
longitudinal sense, how it is used, how you protect things like 
PII (Personal Identifiable Information), and then the various 
legal statutes and things like that, the various departments 
and agencies that GAO oversees--think of Health and Human 
Services or Department of Defense, et cetera--that have their 
own special handling.
    It is not an easy task, but it needs to be done in order to 
amplify and get to the future of EBP that we want to get. I 
think it just has--it is warranted a look, a serious and deep 
look at what can GAO do with data, how might its access 
authorities be enhanced to include long-term usage, compilation 
of, et cetera, to be able to do its job and deliver that kind 
of--the findings, content, and so on that it is so well-known 
for doing.
    Mr. Kilmer. This is why we introduce the Evidence-Based 
Policymaking Act, right, to actually get Congress thinking 
about these things with regard to GAO and with regard to 
everything else. If we are going to have evidence-based 
policymaking, to your point, understanding how data is used, 
how it ought to be used is really important.
    Thank you for your answer. I promise, I did not put him up 
to answering it that way. Thank you.
    Mr. Persons. My pleasure.
    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you, Ranking Member.
    At this time, I recognize Mr. Morelle for 5 minutes of 
questioning.
    Mr. Morelle. Thank you, Madam Chair. I am sorry I came in 
the middle of this, so I apologize. Unlike my friends, I am 
probably further behind in learning about some of these issues, 
but I really appreciated the testimony.
    One thing that I wanted to just follow up on was a question 
I think Chairwoman Bice asked of you, Mr. Blockwood. That is I 
am really sort of intrigued by the idea of creating sort of 
this dashboard where Congress could access different pieces of 
information and help educate us and our staff about important 
issues. You suggested near the end that maybe the consolidation 
of those might be helpful.
    I wonder, not to push back but to sort of question, whether 
or not--I guess I would worry a little bit if it ended up 
being, instead of a range of different places you could get 
information from and different perspectives, if a consolidation 
would somehow lead to less diversity in terms of thought. I 
just wonder. I am certainly happy to have any of you respond to 
it, but we want to make sure that we are equipped with really 
good information that is helpful to us, that helps us do 
analysis, helps us share information, help to ultimately come 
to the right decision. We want to get to the right place.
    I do not know the answer to this question. I do not have a 
perspective. I would just be curious to just delve into that a 
little further.
    Mr. Blockwood. Great. Thank you for the question.
    I would say, one, it is certainly worth exploring to better 
understand what the implications might be, what the 
opportunities might be there.
    Two, I would say, when you talk about merging, I would 
say--or when I talk about merging I mean certain capabilities, 
certain units. It may not have to be wholesale, or maybe it 
does, but that exploration would help define that.
    When I mention dashboard, I am saying a place where 
recommendations and information can be provided and you can see 
where that is. When I think about the different agencies, you 
know, there are unique offerings there, and I think, you know, 
really one of the other things that I would consider is whether 
GAO or another entity can play a coordinating, consolidating, 
and curating role.
    You are not actually losing that diversity of inputs and 
information. You are actually gaining quicker, better access, 
more digestible, to that information, which we all know you, as 
Members of Congress, time is of the essence when you need to 
make decisions.
    Mr. Morelle. Especially when you have 5 minutes to be able 
to query people. Time is of the essence.
    I do not know if others had----
    Mr. Persons. Yes, thanks.
    I just wanted to add that it is an excellent question, and 
there is good news in that. If you take the lens of the view of 
like a legislative support agency like GAO from a report-
centric one and turn it into content, the technology is such 
that even with a GPT or transformer-based system, you can feed 
it. You can control what I call the data nutrition of what goes 
in there.
    If you are having--if you have and you have a wealth of 
nonpartisan fact-based nonideological information in all GAO 
reports, you have CRS, you have CBO, those things can be 
amalgamated in a way and sourced or indexed to where they are 
coming from so you can know where that is. It is not just like 
opening up to the entire open world where disinformation risk 
is just going to come in.
    It is a very valid point, but you can control for that and 
design a system to help provide these issue dashboards and do 
just-in-time policies.
    Mr. Morelle. Did you have anything to add?
    You know, every so often you come across something, and it 
sort of opens your eyes to certain things. I had this 
experience this past week. I picked up a volume--book called 
``Recoding America,'' Jennifer--I think it is Pahlka is how you 
say the last name. I am reading it. I am only, you know, about 
two-thirds of the way through, but it is really fascinating 
because it centers a lot about data. It centers a lot about how 
the Government does it.
    I was struck again, Mr. Blockwood, when you had mentioned 
about--I do not know if you used this term--but human-centered 
design, which is essentially building for the user and the end 
person and making sure the implementation is helpful to them 
but also consistent with policy.
    I wonder if any of you have had a chance to come across the 
volume, if you had any thoughts about it, because it is 
something I want to dig further into, but I am just curious if 
anybody has had a chance to look at it. If not, I would 
recommend it, and I would love to come back and then ask your 
thoughts about it.
    Anyone?
    Mr. Persons. I have not but I will. I would be happy to.
    Mr. Morelle. OK.
    This is not like a test to see how well read you are. I 
apologize. I am just wondering if you are familiar with it.
    Mr. Blockwood. Sir, I will say the Partnership for Public 
Service did actually have an event and a conversation with 
Jennifer Pahlka. If you allow me, there is one thing that I 
would probably draw from the comments that I would like to 
highlight----
    Mr. Morelle. Sure.
    Mr. Blockwood [continuing]. which is customer experience. 
It is nothing unfamiliar to this Committee, but really that is 
a growing field, and I think what you are getting to is really 
the evolution of that and moving from customer service to 
customer experience, and there are ways to do that with a level 
of efficiency and effectiveness that I think agencies should 
adopt. GAO has some practices that it could also benefit from.
    Mr. Morelle. Thank you.
    Madam Chair, I apologize, but I yield back. Thank you.
    Chairwoman Bice. Thank you, Mr. Morelle.
    I recognize myself for an additional couple of questions, 
and this is really open.
    Dr. Persons, you kind of alluded to this when we talked 
about the STAA statutory authority, but I want to open this up 
to the rest and ask what other statutory authorities do you 
think should be given to GAO to help them maybe more 
effectively do their work?
    I believe earlier in the first panel Mr. Dodaro sort of 
alluded to the fact that he did not feel like there is 
necessarily anything specific that was necessary, but I am 
curious, having been part of the entity or a user of it, do you 
feel differently, that there are some things that could be 
identified to offer up?
    Mr. Lips. Thank you for the question.
    I would second the recommendation or endorsement of 
authorizing STAA as its own entity. I think it needs 
independence. I think that there could be some stronger 
authorities to establish more direct reporting to congressional 
requests. I think that would fill some of the gap that was left 
by the OTA and the need for enhancing congressional science and 
technical capacity and expertise.
    One, I think GAO sometimes is reluctant to say they do not 
have the authorities that they need because that puts them in a 
bind when they are trying to negotiate with agencies for those 
authorities. From my experience, I think they can get benefit 
from Congress re-endorsing that they have these authorities.
    There was a bill that moved through the Senate Homeland 
Security and Governmental Affairs Committee and became law in 
2019 that clarified some of their access to information that 
would be useful, clarifying that. In the future, if Congress 
were to require agencies to provide information and data in an 
electronic and accessible format, that might help GAO be able 
to provide more timely information.
    I think also clarifying their ability to do work on 
oversight within the intelligence community and national 
security community has been an area that GAO has, from my 
perspective, been trying to do but sometimes struggles. I think 
there would be a real benefit to doing a reauthorization.
    Mr. Blockwood. As we kind of all discussed here, you know, 
GAO is a model agency. It is a leading practices agency. 
Clearly what it is doing under its current leadership is 
working well, and GAO itself would say, by nature of being an 
audit organization, all organizations can, obviously, get 
better and improve.
    Seemingly, though, with GAO, it seems like most of its 
issues would be centered around resources and finances. You 
have agency leadership committed to improvement, committed to 
understanding where it needs to improve, and I think that is a 
really good first start for any agency.
    You know, one of the things that I would share is that I 
think there are going to be no shortages of challenges, and in 
my view, it is always going to come down to about three things. 
One is people. Do you have the skill, talent, and the 
empowering leadership needed to work toward the most critical 
issues?
    The second is money. Do you have the resources, and do you 
have the accountability and transparency around that to 
effectively execute on your mission?
    Then the third is just things. Do you have the services and 
the technology to deliver, in this case, on behalf of the 
American public?
    I think GAO has those three elements, and as you look, 
obviously, where it can improve, I think you would see some 
agreement and some immediate reaction from GAO to try to do 
that. Of course, they would also agree that exploring where 
additional authorities or where additional help from Congress 
might be needed, that they would certainly welcome it, I would 
assume.
    Mr. Persons. Madam Chair, all I would add is that in the 
absence of the NAPA report's recommendation for a science--or 
that office, then the question is, how do we solve the problem 
of the absorptive capacity for S&T? A lot of that involves 
people.
    I noted your question earlier about how many detailees. 
There is only so many that are there. It may require a look at 
authorities in terms of hiring and how to--as the Comptroller 
General's warning, it is about preserving GAO's independence. 
It must be preserved. How can it or how might we imagine taking 
a human resource that is there to help to just explain to the 
Congress to do things, to push forward, to achieve that vision 
of the better user experience as it were for the Congress.
    I think there is something to look at there depending on 
the options that the Committee pursues.
    Chairwoman Bice. Perfect.
    Well, that concludes questioning. I want to thank the 
witnesses for their time this morning.
    Members of the Subcommittee may have some additional 
questions for you, and we would ask you to please submit those 
questions in writing.
    If there is no further business, I thank the Members for 
their participation.
    Without objection, the Committee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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