[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


LEGISLATION TO PROTECT AMERICAN DATA AND NATIONAL SECURITY FROM FOREIGN 
                              ADVERSARIES

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                    COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION
                               __________

                             MARCH 7, 2024
                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-107
                           

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     Published for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce

                   govinfo.gov/committee/house-energy
                        energycommerce.house.gov
                        
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                    
55-083 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 2024   

                        
                    COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE

                   CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington
                                  Chair
MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas            FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio                  Ranking Member
BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky              ANNA G. ESHOO, California
H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia         DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado
GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida            JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois
LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana               DORIS O. MATSUI, California
RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina       KATHY CASTOR, Florida
TIM WALBERG, Michigan                JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia    PAUL TONKO, New York
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina          YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York
GARY J. PALMER, Alabama              TONY CARDENAS, California
NEAL P. DUNN, Florida                RAUL RUIZ, California
JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah                 SCOTT H. PETERS, California
DEBBBIE LESKO, Arizona               DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
GREG PENCE, Indiana                  MARC A. VEASEY, Texas
DAN CRENSHAW, Texas                  ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire
JOHN JOYCE, Pennsylvania             ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota, Vice  NANETTE DIAZ BARRAGAN, California
    Chair                            LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
RANDY K. WEBER, Sr., Texas           DARREN SOTO, Florida
RICK W. ALLEN, Georgia               ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
TROY BALDERSON, Ohio                 KIM SCHRIER, Washington
RUSS FULCHER, Idaho                  LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts
AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas                LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas
DIANA HARSHBARGER, Tennessee
MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa
KAT CAMMACK, Florida
JAY OBERNOLTE, California
VACANCY
                                 ------                                

                           Professional Staff

                      NATE HODSON, Staff Director
                   SARAH BURKE, Deputy Staff Director
               TIFFANY GUARASCIO, Minority Staff Director

                             C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hon. Cathy McMorris Rodgers, a Representative in Congress from 
  the State of Washington, opening statement.....................     2
    Prepared statement...........................................     5
Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 
  State of New Jersey, opening statement.........................     9
    Prepared statement...........................................    11

                           Submitted Material

Vote on a motion to recess the hearing and reconvene in executive 
  session........................................................    17
H.R. 7520, the Protecting Americans' Data from Foreign 
  Adversaries Act of 2024........................................    18
H.R. 7521, the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary 
  Controlled Applications Act....................................    27

 
LEGISLATION TO PROTECT AMERICAN DATA AND NATIONAL SECURITY FROM FOREIGN 
                              ADVERSARIES

                              ----------                              


                        THURSDAY, MARCH 7, 2024

                  House of Representatives,
                  Committee on Energy and Commerce,
                                            Washington, DC.
    The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:05 a.m., in Room 
2322, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Cathy McMorris 
Rodgers [chairwoman of the committee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Rodgers, Burgess, Latta, 
Guthrie, Griffith, Bilirakis, Bucshon, Hudson, Walberg, Carter, 
Duncan, Palmer, Dunn, Lesko, Pence, Joyce, Armstrong, Weber, 
Allen, Balderson, Fulcher, Pfluger, Harshbarger, Miller-Meeks, 
Cammack, Obernolte, Pallone, Eshoo, DeGette, Schakowsky, 
Matsui, Castor, Sarbanes, Tonko, Clarke, Cardenas, Ruiz, 
Peters, Dingell, Veasey, Kuster, Kelly, Soto, Schrier, and 
Fletcher.
    Staff present: Sarah Burke, Deputy Staff Director; Nick 
Crocker, Senior Advisor and Director of Coalitions; Sydney 
Greene, Director of Operations; Slate Herman, Counsel; Jessica 
Herron, Clerk; Nate Hodson, Staff Director; Tara Hupman, Chief 
Counsel; Noah Jackson, Clerk; Sean Kelly, Press Secretary; 
Lauren Kennedy, Clerk; Alex Khlopin, Staff Assistant; Peter 
Kielty, General Counsel; Emily King, Member Services Director; 
Giulia Leganski, Professional Staff Member; John Lin, Senior 
Counsel; Kate O'Connor, Chief Counsel; Karli Plucker, Director 
of Operations (WA-05); Carla Rafael, Senior Staff Assistant; 
Hannah Anton, Minority Policy Analyst; Keegan Cardman, Minority 
Staff Assistant; Jennifer Epperson, Minority Chief Counsel, 
Communications and Technology; Waverly Gordon, Minority Deputy 
Staff Director and General Counsel; Daniel Greene, Minority 
Professional Staff Member; Tiffany Guarascio, Minority Staff 
Director; Perry Hamilton, Minority Member Services and Outreach 
Manager; Lisa Hone, Minority Chief Counsel, Innovation, Data, 
and Commerce; Dan Miller, Minority Professional Staff Member; 
Francella Ochillo, Minority IDC Fellow; Joe Orlando, Minority 
Junior Professional Staff Member; Emma Roehrig, Minority Staff 
Assistant; Phoebe Rouge, FTC Detailee; Michael Scurato, 
Minority FCC Detailee; Andrew Souvall, Minority Director of 
Communications, Outreach and Member Services; Johanna Thomas, 
Minority Counsel;and C.J. Young, Minority Deputy Communications 
Director.
    Mrs. Rodgers. The committee will come to order.
    Before I recognize myself and Ranking Member Pallone, I 
would like to address the unusual circumstances of this 
hearing.
    First, it is the custom of the committee and required under 
the House rules that a hearing will not commence earlier than 1 
week after such hearing is announced.
    However, pursuant to clause 2(g)(3)(B) of Rule XI of the 
House Rules, a hearing may begin sooner in one of two cases. 
Either (1) the chair and ranking minority member determine that 
there is good cause, or (2) the committee so determines by a 
majority vote the good cause exception.
    In recent history, the committee has invoked the good cause 
exception to hold a hearing on short notice just a few times, 
when holding hearings at the start of a new Congress. In these 
cases, Mr. Pallone and I had a discussion on the matter.
    Colleagues, I have remained and stayed true to our 
commitment, and the good cause exception has not become regular 
practice during my tenure as chair, and it will not become the 
practice for the duration.
    Following a classified briefing last week, Mr. Pallone and 
I have determined that there is a national security interest 
and good cause to hold this hearing on these bills with shorter 
notice so that we can maintain regular order before marking up 
this important legislation later today.
    Before we begin opening statements, do you have any initial 
comments, Mr. Pallone?
    Mr. Pallone. Well, I just want to thank you, Chair Rodgers, 
for your explanation and your commitment to continue with 
regular order as it pertains to the noticing of committee 
meetings. So thank you.
    Mrs. Rodgers. OK.
    I now recognize myself for 5 minutes for an opening 
statement.
    Good morning, welcome to today's--oh, that's not where we 
are.

      OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, A 
    REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF WASHINGTON

    The Chinese Communist Party pose the greatest national 
security threat to the United States of our time. With 
applications like TikTok, these countries are able to target, 
surveil, and manipulate Americans.
    Protecting Americans' data and addressing the serious 
national security threat posed by the CCP have been my top 
priorities all Congress.
    This committee and others have been working diligently, in 
a bipartisan manner, to deliver solutions to address these 
critical issues.
    Today we take action.
    One year ago this month, the CEO of TikTok testified before 
this committee to answer for the threat his company poses to 
America's national security. During the hearing, he was asked 
several times if ByteDance uses information it collects from 
TikTok users to spy on Americans. His response was, and I 
quote, ``I wouldn't describe it as spying.''
    TikTok has repeatedly been caught lying about its 
connection to ByteDance as well as the level of access the CCP 
has to our data, which they are using to weaponize our freedoms 
against us.
    That ends now.
    TikTok's access to 170 million American users makes it a 
valuable propaganda tool for the CCP to exploit and use for 
nefarious purposes.
    Through this access, the app is able to collect nearly 
every data point imaginable--from people's location, to what 
they search for on their devices, to who they are connecting 
with, and other forms of sensitive information.
    The app's trackers are embedded in sites across the web. So 
even if someone has never been on TikTok, their personal 
information is at risk of being collected and abused.
    TikTok's parent company, ByteDance, is currently under 
investigation by the U.S. Department of Justice for surveilling 
on American journalists. And that is just one example. It gets 
much worse.
    While TikTok may be the most well-known application subject 
to the CCP, it is certainly not the only one. Others, like 
Lemon8 and CapCut, are also subject to the CCP's influence 
through ByteDance.
    That is why today we are discussing legislation that will 
prevent apps controlled by foreign adversaries from targeting, 
surveilling, and manipulating the American people.
    I commend members of the Select Committee on the Chinese 
Communist Party, in particular Chairman Mike Gallagher and 
Ranking Member Raja Krishnamoorthi, for their partnership on 
this legislation to address the immediate threat that ByteDance 
ownership of TikTok poses, and I look forward to quickly 
advancing this bill to the full House.
    This is a targeted approach to prohibit access to an 
application owned by a foreign adversary that poses a clear 
threat to U.S. national security.
    Additionally, we will be discussing legislation to prevent 
data brokers from sharing Americans' sensitive information with 
foreign adversaries and the companies they control.
    We know that data brokers sell our sensitive information to 
the highest bidder, and I am appreciative of Ranking Member 
Pallone bringing this legislation forward so that we may 
establish clear prohibitions on the sale of location and health 
information to our adversaries.
    This is an important step in our continued efforts to 
establish comprehensive data privacy in order to effectively 
crack down on abuses of our personal information.
    Companies controlled by a foreign adversary, like the CCP, 
will never embrace American values, virtues of our society and 
culture like freedom of speech, human rights, the rule of law, 
a free press, and others.
    Our adversaries choose to rule through fear and control. If 
given the choice, they will always choose the path for more 
control, more surveillance, and more manipulation.
    Apps like TikTok, Lemon8, and CapCut are spying by design. 
They have to. It is required by law in China.
    This foreign interference and manipulation is not welcome 
here. The threats posed by TikTok are real, which is why today 
we will be hearing from the national intelligence community 
about the threats and how this legislation will neutralize 
them.
    I look forward to our discussion today, and I yield to my 
colleague, Ranking Member Frank Pallone.
    [The prepared statement of Mrs. Rodgers follows:]

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OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, Jr., A REPRESENTATIVE 
            IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY

    Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Today the committee will consider two bills, H.R. 7520 and 
H.R. 7521, that are intended to protect the public from foreign 
adversaries.
    Big Tech has transformed the information superhighway into 
a superspreader of harmful content, invasive surveillance 
practices, and addictive and damaging design features.
    Foreign adversaries understand this and see access to 
Americans' data, communications networks, devices, and 
applications as the entry points to disrupt our daily lives and 
conduct espionage activities.
    And we have seen too often bad actors using communication 
tools to launch cyber attacks. They have pushed disinformation 
and propaganda campaigns in the United States in an attempt to 
undermine our democracy and gain worldwide influence and 
control. And this is all a detriment of our national security 
interests.
    And then there are the data brokers, who collect and sell 
vast amounts of Americans' most sensitive personal information 
for profit.
    Right now, there are no restrictions on who they can sell 
this information to. It may be about members of our Nation's 
military and our children, or it may be information about where 
we go, how we spend our money, and the websites we visit. And 
this information can be purchased by anyone, including foreign 
adversary governments.
    Most Americans are unaware that data brokers compile 
dossiers about their interests, beliefs, actions, and 
movements, and Americans are powerless to stop this invasion of 
their privacy.
    While the answer to this problem is comprehensive national 
data privacy protections, I firmly believe that we must do what 
we can now to safeguard Americans' personal data while we work 
to advance privacy legislation.
    So I am pleased that today we will consider H.R. 7520, the 
Protecting Americans' Data from Foreign Adversaries Act, which 
Chair Rodgers and I introduced this week. It will address this 
national security vulnerability by preventing data brokers from 
selling sensitive personal information of Americans to our 
foreign adversaries.
    And we will also consider H.R. 7521, the Protecting 
Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act, 
introduced this week by Representatives Krishnamoorthi and 
Gallagher.
    This bill sets forth a process to incentivize the divesture 
of TikTok and other applications from the operation and control 
of foreign adversary governments, like the People's Republic of 
China and Russia.
    Social media companies effectively are modern-day media 
companies, and we must treat them that way. This includes 
examining the foreign investments in these companies.
    Now, the Communications Act requires the FCC to undertake 
such an examination for our country's television and radio 
broadcast licenses. Congress placed this requirement on U.S. 
broadcasters to protect national security interests during 
wartime to prevent the airing of foreign propaganda on our 
country's broadcast stations.
    There is no reason social media companies should be exempt 
from this scrutiny. Given Russia, China, and others' actions on 
social media platforms during our recent elections, we know 
that, while the technology has evolved, the threat is very much 
the same.
    The combination of TikTok's Beijing Communist-based 
ownership and the fact that well over 170 million Americans use 
this application exacerbates its dangers to our country and our 
privacy.
    The laws in China allow the Chinese Communist Party to 
compel companies like TikTok to share data with them whether 
the companies want to or not. And this means that the CCP has 
the ability, with TikTok, to compromise device security, 
maliciously access Americans' data, promote pro-Communist 
propaganda, and undermine American interests.
    So I look forward to hearing more today from our 
intelligence and national security community about how this 
bill can bolster their authorities to take action where it is 
needed to ensure that our modern-day media outlets are not 
subject to the influence of countries that see benefit in the 
weakening of our country.
    I have serious national security concerns about TikTok, and 
I am sympathetic to the intent of this legislation, but I want 
to hear from our witnesses before making a final decision.
    Now, finally, I must express my disappointment in how 
rushed this process has been.
    This committee has worked together on a bipartisan basis on 
numerous occasions to advance legislation that furthers our 
national security interests, so committee Democrats would have 
appreciated more notice and time to digest the legislation 
before us before it advances to a markup this afternoon.
    There are very complex constitutional concerns implicated 
by this bill, and I think we all would have benefited more from 
a more thorough process that results from regular order.
    Nevertheless, I appreciate that Chair Rodgers agreed to my 
request to hold this hearing so Members can hear from experts 
and review the proposals before jumping to a vote later today.
    And so, with that, Madam Chair, I yield back the balance of 
my time.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Pallone follows:]

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    Mrs. Rodgers. Thank you, Mr. Pallone.
    I now recognize myself to offer a motion pursuant to clause 
2(g)(1) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House of Representatives 
to recess this hearing and reconvene in executive session 
because disclosure of matters to be considered would endanger 
national security.
    I move that the committee do now recess and reconvene in 
executive session based on our determination that the 
disclosure of matters that need to be considered during this 
hearing would (1) endanger national security and (2) compromise 
sensitive law enforcement information.
    The clerk will call the roll.
    So the motion is before us to recess pursuant to clause 
2(g)(1) of Rule XI of the House Rules.
    The clerk will call the roll.
    The Clerk. Burgess.
    Mr. Burgess. Burgess votes aye.
    The Clerk. Burgess votes aye.
    Latta.
    Mr. Latta. Aye.
    The Clerk. Latta votes aye.
    Guthrie.
    Mr. Guthrie. Aye.
    The Clerk. Guthrie votes aye.
    Griffith.
    Mr. Griffith. Aye.
    The Clerk. Griffith votes aye.
    Bilirakis.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Aye.
    The Clerk. Bilirakis votes aye.
    Bucshon.
    Mr. Bucshon. Aye.
    The Clerk. Bucshon votes aye.
    Hudson.
    Mr. Hudson. Aye.
    The Clerk. Hudson votes aye.
    Walberg.
    Mr. Walberg. Aye.
    The Clerk. Walberg votes aye.
    Carter.
    Mr. Carter. Aye.
    The Clerk. Carter votes aye.
    Duncan.
    Mr. Duncan. Duncan votes aye.
    The Clerk. Duncan votes aye.
    Palmer.
    Mr. Palmer. Aye.
    The Clerk. Palmer votes aye.
    Dunn.
    Mr. Dunn. Aye.
    The Clerk. Dunn votes aye.
    Curtis.
    [No response.]
    The Clerk. Lesko.
    Mrs. Lesko. Aye.
    The Clerk. Lesko votes aye.
    Pence.
    Mr. Pence. Aye.
    The Clerk. Pence votes aye.
    Crenshaw.
    [No response.]
    The Clerk. Joyce.
    Mr. Joyce. Aye.
    The Clerk. Joyce votes aye.
    Armstrong.
    Mr. Armstrong. Yes.
    The Clerk. Armstrong votes aye.
    Weber.
    Mr Weber. Aye.
    The Clerk. Weber votes aye.
    Allen.
    Mr. Allen. Allen votes aye.
    The Clerk. Allen votes aye.
    Balderson.
    Mr. Balderson. Aye.
    The Clerk. Balderson votes aye.
    Fulcher.
    Mr. Fulcher. Aye.
    The Clerk. Fulcher votes aye.
    Pfluger.
    Mr. Pfluger. Aye.
    The Clerk. Pfluger votes aye.
    Harshbarger.
    Mrs. Harshbarger. Aye.
    The Clerk. Harshbarger votes aye.
    Miller-Meeks.
    Mrs. Miller-Meeks. Aye.
    The Clerk. Miller-Meeks votes aye.
    Cammack.
    Mrs. Cammack. Aye.
    The Clerk. Cammack votes aye.
    Obernolte.
    Mr. Obernolte. Aye.
    The Clerk. Obernolte votes aye.
    Pallone.
    Mr. Pallone. Aye.
    The Clerk. Pallone votes aye.
    Eshoo.
    Ms. Eshoo. Aye.
    The Clerk. Eshoo votes aye.
    DeGette.
    Ms. DeGette. Aye.
    The Clerk. DeGette votes aye.
    Schakowsky.
    Ms. Schakowsky. Aye.
    The Clerk. Schakowsky votes aye.
    Matsui.
    Ms. Matsui. Aye.
    The Clerk. Matsui votes aye.
    Castor.
    Ms. Castor. Aye.
    The Clerk. Castor votes aye.
    Sarbanes.
    Mr. Sarbanes. Aye.
    The Clerk. Sarbanes votes aye.
    Tonko.
    Mr. Tonko. Aye.
    The Clerk. Tonko votes aye.
    Clarke.
    [No response.]
    The Clerk. Cardenas.
    [No response.]
    The Clerk. Ruiz.
    Mr. Ruiz. Aye.
    The Clerk. Ruiz votes aye.
    Peters.
    Mr. Peters. Aye.
    The Clerk. Peters votes aye.
    Dingell.
    Mrs. Dingell. Aye.
    The Clerk. Dingell votes aye.
    Veasey.
    Mr. Veasey. Aye.
    The Clerk. Veasey votes aye.
    Kuster.
    Ms. Kuster. Aye.
    The Clerk. Kuster votes aye.
    Kelly.
    [No response.]
    The Clerk. Barragan.
    [No response.]
    The Clerk. Blunt Rochester.
    [No response.]
    The Clerk. Soto.
    Mr. Soto. Aye.
    The Clerk. Soto votes aye.
    Craig.
    [No response.]
    The Clerk. Schrier.
    Ms. Schrier. Aye.
    The Clerk. Schrier votes aye.
    Trahan.
    [No response.]
    The Clerk. Fletcher.
    Mrs. Fletcher. Aye.
    The Clerk. Fletcher votes aye.
    Chair Rodgers.
    Mrs. Rodgers. Aye.
    The Clerk. Chair Rodgers votes aye.
    Ms. Kelly. Madam Clerk, how is Ms. Kelly recorded?
    The Clerk. Ms. Kelly is not recorded.
    Ms. Kelly. Aye.
    The Clerk. Kelly votes aye.
    Mrs. Rodgers. The clerk will report the result.
    The Clerk. Chair Rodgers, on that vote, we have 43 ayes and 
zero noes.
    Mrs. Rodgers. The motion is agreed to.
    We will now recess, and we will reconvene in a classified 
executive session in 2123 Rayburn. I ask the Members to move to 
our secure location, check in their electronic devices. We will 
reconvene in approximately 15 minutes to continue the hearing 
and take the witness testimony there.
    The committee stands in recess.
    [Whereupon, at 10:21 a.m., the committee proceeded in 
closed session.]
    [Material submitted for inclusion in the record follows:]

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