[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]






                                 ______

 
                    EXAMINING THE RISK: THE DANGERS
                    OF EV FIRES FOR FIRST RESPONDERS

=======================================================================

                                     
                                     

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                     SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
                             AND OVERSIGHT

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE,
                             AND TECHNOLOGY

                                 OF THE

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                           FEBRUARY 29, 2024

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-35

                               __________

 Printed for the use of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology
 
 
 GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT
 
 

                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                     

       Available via the World Wide Web: http://science.house.gov
       
       
       
                                ______
         
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
        54-912 PDF          WASHINGTON : 2024 

       
       
       
       

              COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY

                  HON. FRANK LUCAS, Oklahoma, Chairman
BILL POSEY, Florida                  ZOE LOFGREN, California, Ranking 
RANDY WEBER, Texas                       Member
BRIAN BABIN, Texas                   SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
JIM BAIRD, Indiana                   HALEY STEVENS, Michigan
DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida              JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York
MIKE GARCIA, California              DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
STEPHANIE BICE, Oklahoma             ERIC SORENSEN, Illinois
JAY OBERNOLTE, California            ANDREA SALINAS, Oregon
CHUCK FLEISCHMANN, Tennessee         VALERIE FOUSHEE, North Carolina
DARRELL ISSA, California             KEVIN MULLIN, California
RICK CRAWFORD, Arkansas              JEFF JACKSON, North Carolina
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York             EMILIA SYKES, Ohio
RYAN ZINKE, Montana                  MAXWELL FROST, Florida
SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida              YADIRA CARAVEO, Colorado
DALE STRONG, Alabama                 SUMMER LEE, Pennsylvania
MAX MILLER, Ohio                     JENNIFER McCLELLAN, Virginia
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia              GABE AMO, Rhode Island
MIKE COLLINS, Georgia                SEAN CASTEN, Illinois,
BRANDON WILLIAMS, New York             Vice Ranking Member
TOM KEAN, New Jersey                 PAUL TONKO, New York
VACANCY
                                 ------                                

              Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight

                HON. JAY OBERNOLTE, California, Chairman
BRIAN BABIN, Texas                   VALERIE FOUSHEE, North Carolina, 
MAX MILLER, Ohio                         Ranking Member
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia              KEVIN MULLIN, California
VACANCY                              JEFF JACKSON, North Carolina
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                           February 29, 2024

                                                                   Page

Hearing Charter..................................................     2

                           Opening Statements

Statement by Representative Jay Obernolte, Chairman, Subcommittee 
  on Investigations and Oversight, Committee on Science, Space, 
  and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives..................    12
    Written Statement............................................    13

Statement by Representative Valerie Foushee, Ranking Member, 
  Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight, Committee on 
  Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives..    14
    Written Statement............................................    15

Statement by Representative Zoe Lofgren, Ranking Member, 
  Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of 
  Representatives................................................    16
    Written Statement............................................    17

                               Witnesses:

Mr. Dan Munsey, Fire Chief, San Bernardino County Fire Department
    Oral Statement...............................................    18
    Written Statement............................................    21

Dr. Judy Jeevarajan, Vice President and Executive Director, 
  Electrochemical Safety Research Institute at UL Research 
  Institutes
    Oral Statement...............................................    28
    Written Statement............................................    30

Discussion.......................................................    33

             Appendix I: Answers to Post-Hearing Questions

Mr. Dan Munsey, Fire Chief, San Bernardino County Fire Department    44

Dr. Judy Jeevarajan, Vice President and Executive Director, 
  Electrochemical Safety Research Institute at UL Research 
  Institutes.....................................................    49

            Appendix II: Additional Material for the Record

Statement submitted by Representative Max Miller, Committee on 
  Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives
    Albert Gore, Executive Director, Zero Emission Transportation 
      Association (ZETA).........................................    52


                    EXAMINING THE RISK: THE DANGERS



                    OF EV FIRES FOR FIRST RESPONDERS

                              ----------                              


                      THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 29, 2024

                  House of Representatives,
      Subcommittee on Investigations and Oversight,
               Committee on Science, Space, and Technology,
                                                   Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:31 a.m., in 
room 2318 of the Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jay 
Obernolte [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
 GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT

    Chairman Obernolte. The Committee on Science, Space, and 
Technology will come to order. Without objection, the Chair is 
authorized to declare a recess of this hearing at any time.
    Welcome to today's hearing entitled ``Examining the Risk: 
The Dangers of EV Fires for First Responders.'' I now recognize 
myself for 5 minutes for an opening statement.
    I'd like to thank everyone and to Ranking Member Foushee 
and the other Members of our Committee for being here this 
morning. Today's hearing will examine the growing dangers that 
electric vehicle (EV) fires pose to the American public and the 
lack of guidance and resources provided to first responders 
across the country.
    For over 100 years, our highways have been dominated by 
internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles. Throughout this 
time, we've invested resources and expertise to learn the best 
practices for extinguishing internal combustion engine vehicle 
fires. However, within the last two decades, we've seen a large 
increase in the number of electric vehicles on the road. The 
Federal Government has pushed for a transition to EVs, 
incentivizing their development through tax credits and 
charging station infrastructure grants. Worldwide, there are 
now roughly 3.1 million EVs in operation today. Many experts in 
the auto industry anticipate that by 2030, there will be nearly 
130 million vehicles in operation. As the presence of these 
vehicles continues to grow on our roads, so does the threat and 
danger of the fires they can produce.
    EV fires are fundamentally different from traditional 
internal combustion engine fires, and they present new dangers 
that our first responders need to be prepared for. EV fires 
burn at temperatures far hotter than regular vehicle fires. 
They produce copious amounts of toxic chemical gases, expose 
firefighters to the risk of electrocution, and are often 
inextinguishable for hours or even days with a constant threat 
of reignition due to thermal runaway. When an EV either 
experiences an incident due to a manufacturing defect or is 
damaged in an accident, the battery that powers that vehicle 
often has a remaining charge. This stranded energy provides the 
fuel to keep a battery burning for hours, regardless of how 
much water is poured on it in an attempt to extinguish it.
    Unfortunately, the Federal Government has been deficient in 
providing guidance and resources to our firefighters in dealing 
with this threat. There's currently no uniform guidance on how 
to address EV fires or protect firefighters from the unique 
hazards they present, leaving many fire departments to 
formulate ad hoc solutions. For example, firefighters in 
Wakefield, Massachusetts, had to dump 2-20,000 gallons of water 
over 2 hours to put out an EV fire. Firefighters in Sacramento 
were forced to submerge an EV in a makeshift pond because the 
vehicle kept reigniting.
    Vehicle manufacturers themselves have not provided uniform 
solutions to this problem, with some manufacturers recommending 
that EVs be removed from the road and left to burn themselves 
out. As you can imagine, in my home State of California where 
wildfires are an ever-present danger, letting an EV just burn 
itself out is not an option.
    Today's hearing is about ensuring the safety of our 
firefighters and first responders. This hearing also seeks to 
raise awareness of the dangers of EV battery fires and ensure 
that those who help protect and serve our communities are 
provided with the resources they need to do their jobs. This 
requires that we understand the threats of EV fires and the 
substantial differences between EVs and ICE vehicles to develop 
new best practices and uniform guidance.
    I'm looking forward to the hearing today. That concludes my 
opening statement.
    [The prepared statement of Chairman Obernolte follows:]

    Good morning. Thank you to Ranking Member Foushee and the 
other members of our committee for being here.
    Today's hearing will examine the growing dangers that 
electric vehicle fires pose to the American public and the lack 
of guidance and resources provided to first responders across 
the country.
    For over 100 years, our highways have been dominated by 
internal combustion engine vehicles. Throughout this time, we 
have invested resources and expertise to learn the best 
practices for extinguishing internal combustion engine vehicle 
fires.
    However, within the last two decades we have seen a large 
increase in the number of EV's on the road. The federal 
government has pushed for a transition to electric vehicles, 
incentivizing their development through tax credits and 
charging station infrastructure grants.
    Worldwide there are roughly 3.1 million EVs in operation 
today. Many experts in the auto industry anticipate that by 
2030 there will be nearly 130 million in operation. As the 
presence of these vehicles continue to grow on our roads, so 
does the threat and danger of the fires they can produce.
    EV fires are fundamentally different from traditional 
internal combustion engine fires, and they present new dangers 
that our first responders need to be prepared for. EV fires 
burn at temperatures far hotter than regular vehicle fires; 
they produce copious amounts of toxic chemical gases, expose 
firefighters to the risk of electrocution, and are often 
inextinguishable for hours or days with the threat of 
reignition due to thermal runaway.
    When an EV either experiences an incident due to a 
manufacturing defect or is damaged in an accident, the battery 
that powers the vehicle often has a remaining charge. This 
stranded energy provides the fuel to keep a battery burning for 
hours regardless of how much water is poured on it in an 
attempt to extinguish it.
    Unfortunately, the federal government has been deficient in 
providing guidance and resources to our firefighters and first 
responders in dealing with this threat. There is currently no 
uniform guidance on how to address EV fires or protect 
firefighters from the unique hazards they present, leaving many 
fire departments to formulate ad hoc solutions.
    For example, firefighters in Wakefield, Massachusetts had 
to dump 20,000 gallons of water over two hours to put out an EV 
fire. Firefighters in Sacramento, California were forced to 
submerge an EV in a makeshift pond because the vehicle kept 
reigniting.
    Vehicle manufacturers themselves have not provided uniform 
solutions to this problem, with some manufacturers recommending 
that EVs be removed from the road and left to burn themselves 
out. As you can imagine, in my home state of California, where 
wildfires are always an ever-present danger, letting an EV just 
burn itself out is not an option.
    Today's hearing is about ensuring the safety of our 
firefighters and first responders. The hearing also seeks to 
raise awareness of the dangers of EV battery fires and to 
ensure that those who help protect and serve our communities 
are provided with the resources they need to do their jobs. 
This requires that we understand the threats of EV fires and 
the substantial differences between EVs and ICE vehicles to 
develop new best practices and uniform guidance.
    Our first witness is Mr. Dan Munsey, Fire Chief of the San 
Bernardino County Fire Department. Chief Munsey is a 
constituent and friend. He works diligently for the citizens of 
San Bernardino County and is uniquely positioned through his 
leadership role with the International Association of Fire 
Chiefs to speak to the challenges firefighters face on the 
ground when confronted with an EV fire. Chief Munsey, we are 
looking forward to hearing your experiences to better 
understand how we can address this issue in the future.
    Also testifying today is Dr. Judy Jeevarajan, the Vice 
President and Executive Director of the Electrochemical Safety 
Research Institute at UL Research Institutes. UL is one of the 
leading research organizations on EVs and lithium-ion battery 
fires. Dr. Jeevarajan is an expert on battery technology, and 
we look forward to hearing from you today.
    We hope both of your testimonies will provide solutions to 
the Committee's concerns with these vehicle fires, and also 
supply steps that can be taken to provide resources and 
guidance to first responders.
    Thank you for your willingness to be here. I now recognize 
Ranking Member Foushee for her opening statement.

    Chairman Obernolte. I'll now recognize the Ranking Member 
of the Investigations and Oversight Subcommittee, the 
gentlewoman from North Carolina, Mrs. Foushee, for her opening 
statement.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you, Chairman Obernolte, for holding 
today's hearing on this important topic.
    The issue of firefighter safety is very near and dear to 
me. My husband Stan served as a firefighter and fire marshal 
for the town of Carrboro, North Carolina, for more than 30 
years before his retirement. I witnessed firsthand the bravery 
and dedication that he and his firefighting comrades brought to 
the job, as well as the sacrifices that firefighters and their 
families are required to make. I am incredibly grateful for 
their service and we should all be grateful for the service of 
firefighters around the Nation. We must do everything possible 
to support them and keep them safe the way they keep us safe 
every single day.
    Today's hearing is focused on electric vehicles and the 
distinct safety risks that electric vehicles pose for 
firefighters and first responders. A key task when considering 
any emerging technology is to understand the novel challenges 
posed by the technology and then learn how to mitigate those 
risks so that society can enjoy its full benefits. Electric 
vehicles are no different. It is important to note that EVs are 
a critical piece of America's clean energy transition, and that 
the rapid adoption of EVs is essential to achieving President 
Biden's ambitious goal to make the United States a net-zero 
emitter of greenhouse gases by 2050.
    I am proud to say that my home State of North Carolina has 
become a leader in the development and the deployment of EVs 
here in the U.S. Furthermore, based on currently available 
data, there is no reason to believe that EVs are any more 
likely to catch fire than traditional vehicles powered by 
internal combustion engines. Nevertheless, EV battery fires are 
different from internal combustion engine fires, and therefore, 
pose a distinctive risk in terms of firefighter and first 
responder safety. I appreciate that today's discussion will be 
rooted in science because we cannot understand the safety risks 
of EVs without understanding the scientific basis that 
underlies them.
    Today's EVs are mostly powered by lithium-ion batteries, 
which offer great benefits when it comes to energy efficiency, 
but can suffer extensive damage from high-speed crashes. The 
sources of EV safety risks that we all--that we will discuss 
rather, such as electric shocks, stranded energy, thermal 
runaway, reignition, and toxic chemical release are primarily 
associated with the properties and characteristics of lithium-
ion batteries when those batteries are damaged.
    I believe there are tremendous opportunities for scientific 
research to reduce these risks by advancing our understanding 
of why lithium-ion batteries react in these ways, how the 
design of lithium-ion batteries can be improved to lessen the 
risk of fires, and what innovative tools and techniques can be 
developed to aid firefighters and first responders as they 
respond to EV fires in real time.
    I hope to learn more today about the latest research 
developments surrounding lithium-ion battery safety, the 
research gaps that currently exist, and the most promising 
research pathways toward batteries that are less prone to fire 
hazards.
    I want to extend my sincere gratitude to both of our 
witnesses for your testimony at today's hearing. We are 
fortunate to hear from both of you for your perspectives as 
leaders in the firefighting community and a leader in the field 
of battery safety research. It is crucial to bring these worlds 
together to ensure that firefighters and first responders 
possess the knowledge and the technical capabilities that they 
need to respond to EV fires safely and effectively.
    And, Chief Munsey, thank you for your service.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Mrs. Foushee follows:]

    Thank you, Chairman Obernolte, and thank you for holding 
today's hearing on this important topic.
    The issue of firefighter safety is very near and dear to 
me: my husband, Stanley, was a firefighter for over 30 years 
and served as the Fire Marshal for the town of Carrboro, North 
Carolina before his retirement. I witnessed firsthand the 
bravery and dedication that my husband and his firefighting 
comrades brought to the job, as well as the sacrifices that 
firefighters and their families are required to make. I am 
incredibly grateful for their service, and we should all be 
grateful for the service of firefighters around the nation. We 
must do everything possible to support them and keep them safe, 
the way they keep us safe every single day.
    Today's hearing is focused on electric vehicles, and the 
distinct safety risks that electric vehicles pose for 
firefighters and first responders. A key task when considering 
any emerging technology is to understand the novel challenges 
posed by the technology and then learn how to mitigate those 
risks so that society can enjoy its full benefits. Electric 
vehicles are no different.
    It is important to note that EVs are a critical piece of 
America's clean energy transition, and that the rapid adoption 
of EVs is essential to achieving President Biden's ambitious 
goal to make the United States a net-zero emitter of greenhouse 
gases by 2050. I am proud to say that my home state of North 
Carolina has become a leader in the development and deployment 
of EVs here in the U.S.
    Furthermore, based on currently available data, there is no 
reason to believe that EVs are any more likely to catch fire 
than traditional vehicles powered by internal combustion 
engines. Nevertheless, EV battery fires are different from 
internal combustion engine fires, and therefore pose a 
distinctive risk in terms of firefighter and first responder 
safety.
    I appreciate that today's discussion will be rooted in 
science, because we cannot understand the safety risks of EVs 
without understanding the scientific basis that underlies them. 
Today's EVs are mostly powered by lithium-ion batteries, which 
offer great benefits when it comes to energy efficiency but can 
suffer extensive damage from high-speed crashes.
    The sources of EV safety risk that we will discuss, such as 
electric shock, stranded energy, thermal runaway, reignition, 
and toxic chemical release, are primarily associated with the 
properties and characteristics of lithium-ion batteries when 
those batteries are damaged. I believe there are tremendous 
opportunities for scientific research to reduce these risks by 
advancing our understanding of why lithium-ion batteries react 
in these ways, how the design of lithium-ion batteries can be 
improved to lessen the risk of fires, and what innovative tools 
and techniques can be developed to aid firefighters and first 
responders as they respond to EV fires in real time.
    I hope to learn more today about the latest research 
developments surrounding lithium-ion battery safety, the 
research gaps that currently exist, and the most promising 
research pathways towards batteries that are less prone to fire 
hazards.
    I want to extend my sincere gratitude to both of our 
witnesses for your testimony at today's hearing. We are 
fortunate to hear both of your perspectives, as a leader in the 
firefighting community and a leader in the field of battery 
safety research. It is crucial to bring these worlds together 
to ensure that firefighters and first responders possess the 
knowledge and the technical capabilities that they need to 
respond to EV fires safely and effectively.
    And Chief Munsey, thank you for your service. Mr. Chairman, 
I yield back.

    Chairman Obernolte. Thank you, Mrs. Foushee.
    I'll now recognize the Ranking Member of the full 
Committee, Ms. Lofgren, for an opening statement.
    Ms. Lofgren. Well, thank you, Chairman Obernolte and 
Ranking Member Foushee, for this hearing today.
    As you've mentioned, electric vehicles make up an 
increasing share of cars on the road, and that's really good 
news. That reduces emission from the transportation sector, 
which is crucial in our fight against climate change. But as 
with any emerging technology, we need to make sure we 
understand and adapt to the unique challenges that arise from 
its widespread adoption. That doesn't mean EVs are any more 
dangerous than gas-powered vehicles. We simply don't have the 
data to suggest that. But the data and research on EVs has to 
increase along with the market for them.
    Over the decades, we've developed best practices to 
extinguish internal combustion engine fires as safely and as 
quickly as possible. Now, we need to give that level of 
attention and support to research into electric vehicles and 
specifically, as the Chair and Ranking Member have mentioned, 
lithium-ion batteries that power them.
    A 2020 safety report published by the National 
Transportation Safety Board noted that fires arising from 
lithium-ion batteries and electric vehicles can present special 
challenges for firefighters and first responders, along with 
risks that differ from the risks presented by fires in 
traditional vehicles. In the years since that report was 
published, EV sales have ballooned to 1.3 million in 2023. In 
fact, when I'm home, it looks like every other car on the road 
is an EV.
    Fire departments across the country, many staffed by 
volunteers, don't have the resources to track the EV fires they 
extinguish. And as we know in the Science Committee, data is 
absolutely essential. If the data isn't available to indicate 
that EVs are more dangerous than the internal combustion 
engine, we need to research that, and we need to have 
meaningful efforts to deal with the new challenges.
    I'm happy to join my Chair and Ranking Member in welcoming 
these two wonderful witnesses. We need to support research into 
safety mechanisms that can be incorporated into the battery 
itself so reignition is less of a risk. And we need to develop 
technology that provides insight into the health of lithium-ion 
batteries to detect damaged batteries after a crash and keep 
them off the road and out of waste facilities before they 
ignite.
    In the meantime, we need to ensure that first responders 
are prepared to address the risk present when current 
generation lithium-ion batteries ignite. Is the personal 
protective equipment used by firefighters still safe after it's 
been exposed to battery fumes? How can we ensure that first 
responders have easy access to safety information that differs 
from manufacturer to manufacturer? So long as we lack 
industrywide standards and science to anchor them, responses to 
EV fires will be hampered, placing first responders and 
consumers at risk.
    I look forward to hearing from the experts here today. We 
know science is important in addressing this issue. Support of 
zero emissions in our future requires a clear-eyed look at the 
new challenges introduced by emerging clean technologies. As 
someone who happily drives a Volt at home, I want to make sure 
that we know everything that we need to know about lithium-ion 
batteries so that we can go on reducing our climate change risk 
but also safely.
    And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Lofgren follows:]

    Thank you, Chairman Obernolte and Ranking Member Foushee, 
for leading this hearing today. Electric vehicles make up an 
increasing share of the cars on the road. This is great news -
reducing emissions from the transportation sector is crucial in 
our fight against climate change. And as with any emerging 
technology, we need to make sure we understand and adapt to the 
unique challenges that arise from its widespread adoption. This 
does not mean EVs are any more dangerous than gas- powered 
vehicles--we simply don't have data to suggest that. But the 
data and research on EVs must increase along with the market 
for them. Over many decades, we've developed best practices to 
extinguish internal combustion engine fires as safely and 
quickly as possible. Now, we need to give that level of 
attention and support to research into electric vehicles, and 
specifically into the lithium- ion batteries that power them.
    A 2020 safety report published by the National 
Transportation Safety Board noted that fires arising from the 
lithium-ion batteries in electric vehicles can ``present 
special challenges'' for firefighters and first responders, 
along with ``risks that differ'' from the risks presented by 
fires in traditional vehicles. In the years since that report 
was published, EV sales have ballooned, from 300,000 in 2020 to 
1.3 million in 2023. However, the data available on EV fires 
hasn't increased proportionally. Fire departments across the 
country--many staffed by volunteers--lack the resources to 
track the EV fires they extinguish. The data that is available 
doesn't indicate EVs are any more dangerous than internal 
combustion engines, but as we know on the Science Committee, we 
can't meaningfully address new risks without the data to 
underpin our research questions.
    I'm happy to join my colleagues in welcoming our witnesses 
today, who will help us understand these questions from two 
important angles. As electric vehicles become increasingly 
popular, practical, and affordable, their lithium-ion batteries 
must evolve to improve the safety of riders and first 
responders. We need to support research into safety mechanisms 
that can be incorporated into the battery itself, so re-
ignition is less of a risk. We need to develop technology that 
provides insight into the health of lithium-ion batteries, to 
detect damaged batteries after a crash and keep them off the 
road and out of waste facilities before they ignite.
    In the meantime, we need to ensure that first responders 
are prepared to address the risks present when current-
generation lithium-ion batteries catch fire.
    Is the personal protective equipment used by firefighters 
still safe after it's been exposed to battery fumes? How can we 
ensure our first responders have easy access to safety 
information that differs from manufacturer to manufacturer? So 
long as we lack industry-wide standards and science to anchor 
them, responses to EV fires will be hampered, placing first 
responders and consumers at risk.
    I look forward to hearing expert perspectives on how the 
Science Committee can help to close the research gaps related 
to EV fires. Support of a zero-emissions future requires a 
clear-eyed look at the new challenges introduced by emerging 
clean technologies. Thank you to our witnesses for appearing 
today. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

    Chairman Obernolte. Thank you, Ranking Member Lofgren.
    We'll now move to witness testimony. Our first witness is 
Dan Munsey, who is Fire Chief of the San Bernardino County Fire 
Department. Chief Munsey is my constituent and friend. He works 
diligently for the citizens of San Bernardino County and is 
uniquely positioned through his leadership role with the 
International Association of Fire Chiefs to speak to the 
challenges that firefighters face on the ground when confronted 
with an EV fire.
    Chief Munsey, we are looking forward to hearing your 
experiences and to better understanding how we can address this 
issue in the future.
    Also testifying today is Dr. Judy Jeevarajan, which, in 
fairness, is no more difficult a last name than Obernolte. She 
is the Vice President and Executive Director of the 
Electrochemical Safety Research Institute at UL Research 
Institutes. UL is one of the leading research organizations on 
EVs and lithium-ion battery fires. Dr. Jeevarajan is an expert 
on battery technology, and we are looking forward to hearing 
from you today about how to confront this problem. We hope that 
both of your testimonies will provide some solutions to the 
Committee's concerns with these vehicle fires and also supply 
steps that can be taken to provide these needed resources and 
guidance to our first responders.
    Chief Munsey, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to 
present your testimony.

            TESTIMONY OF MR. DAN MUNSEY, FIRE CHIEF,

             SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY FIRE DEPARTMENT

    Mr. Munsey. Chairman Obernolte, thank you for allowing me 
to testify. Ranking Member Foushee, thank you for you and your 
husband's service. And, Ms. Lofgren--thank you--Ranking Member 
Lofgren, thank you--Lofgren, excuse me--thank you for your 
testimony as well.
    I have to ask you, Chair, did you use ChatGPT for your 
remarks?
    Chairman Obernolte. No, sir, I did not.
    Mr. Munsey. I'm Dan Munsey. I'm the Fire Chief for the 
county of San Bernardino. We happen to be the largest county in 
the United States, over 20,000 square miles. For perspective, 
you can take the four smallest States in the union and put it 
within our borders. Of interest is almost 80 percent of our 
area is State or Federal land. We have a large Federal 
responsibility and work with the various fire--forest--forestry 
agencies in our county.
    I do sit on the International Association of Fire Chiefs as 
a Tech Council President, have sat there for 4 years. I am on 
the California Metro Chiefs as a Vice President that represents 
the largest fire departments in California. And I also sit on 
Firescope in which an Emerging Information Technology group has 
spent a lot of time looking at lithium-ion batteries and EVs 
and the hazards to firefighters.
    I wrote a written testimony and it focused on prevention 
because our first job in the fire service is to prevent bad 
things from happening, and only when those things do occur, 
then to have a response. I'm not going to go through everything 
that I've written in my written testimony, but I will say that 
it's incredibly important that we educate the public to ensure 
that they understand how to safely charge their vehicles and 
how to not modify them. It's important that we're enforcing the 
rules and regulations, and there's certainly some rules and 
regulations that could be adopted by State, local, and Federal 
agencies to ensure that our electric vehicles are safe.
    Third, we have to work with the manufacturers to ensure 
that we are engineering lithium-ion batteries that can 
withstand damage from crashes and also sustainability from 
fire, and I have provided some thoughts in my written 
testimony.
    I'm going to call for a video to be played here shortly, 
and when it's ready to be played, please bring it to the 
screen. But I'd like to describe this video to you. Now, this 
isn't a video that's going to show a large explosion or a gas 
that's quickly burning, but it's going to show four things: the 
effort required to suppress an emergency vehicle, the duration 
of the amount of time that it takes to suppress that fire, the 
amount of specialized equipment, and the cost.
    As we're fighting electric vehicle fires, as has been 
mentioned, there are some concerns. The first is the personal 
protective equipment of the firefighters. Frankly, over my 
career, I've seen way too many firefighters pass away and die 
from cancer. Our cancer rate is higher than the civilian 
population. Their--electric vehicle lithium-ion batteries pose 
a challenge to firefighters' health. The personal protective 
equipment, especially when it's exposed by lithium-ion gases in 
a pressurized environment such as the garage you see in front 
of you, then leads to extraordinary cleaning costs of around 
$500 to $1,000. This personal protective equipment must be sent 
offsite. There is no fire department that I have knowledge of 
that possesses the cleaning. Generally, it's a CO2 
compressed system to remove the gases.
    Please play the video. OK. So we're waiting for that to 
come up. Just go ahead and play it when you're ready.
    [Video shown.]
    Mr. Munsey. Equipment, you'll see in this video here 
shortly that they're using a fire blanket. The fire blanket is 
used to either suppress the fire. It's not putting the fire 
out, but it's controlling the fire and the gases to prevent 
spread. These blankets cost between $3,000 to $5,000. What you 
see here is a single-family residence in the Denver metro area. 
The firefighters had a garage. The first screen shows gases and 
a smoke that--under a pressurized environment. They now have to 
remove the car using specialized equipment. The blanket is in 
the firefighter's hand. While the fire looks controlled, it is 
not. There's still thermal runaway of that battery, and it can 
ignite at any time. This blanket is used to keep that fire 
under check.
    They are now going to have to tow this vehicle to a tow 
yard. When they arrive at a tow yard, they're going to do 
things such as digging a pit, filling it with water, and 
immersing this vehicle, or working to isolate that battery. 
This car must be kept separate from humans and other cars so it 
doesn't ignite or cause human health.
    Training is also significant of about $2,500 per 
firefighter just to understand the electrical concerns, how to 
adequately fight these fires, how to use the specialized 
nozzles.
    Finally, to close the remarks, our plan in San Bernardino, 
we're going to need to buy a heavy wrecker. The heavy wrecker 
is about $1.2 million. We're going to use these to lift the 
cars. We're going
to have to buy a trailer with a dip tank to place the cars in a 
dip tank to fully extinguish these fires.
    I'll look forward to your questions as they come up. Thank 
you for the time.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Munsey follows:]
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    Chairman Obernolte. Thank you, Chief Munsey.
    I now recognize Dr. Jeevarajan for 5 minutes to present her 
testimony.

               TESTIMONY OF DR. JUDY JEEVARAJAN,

             VICE PRESIDENT AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,

           ELECTROCHEMICAL SAFETY RESEARCH INSTITUTE

                   AT UL RESEARCH INSTITUTES

    Dr. Jeevarajan. Good morning, Chairman Obernolte, Ranking 
Member Foushee, and Ranking Member Lofgren, and Members of the 
Committee. Thank you for this opportunity to testify on 
examining the risk and dangers of EV fires for first 
responders, as this is indeed a very important and timely 
topic. I'm the Vice President and Executive Director of UL 
Research Institutes, as you already mentioned, and before 
joining UL, I worked at NASA (National Aeronautics and Space 
Administration) Johnson Space Center in Houston as a group lead 
for battery safety and advanced technology.
    Since entering the commercial market in the 1990's, 
lithium-ion rechargeable batteries will continue to maintain 
the rank for battery chemistry with the highest energy density 
while also enjoying a long cycle life, lower level of self-
discharge, and high-rate capability. The many advantages that 
is provided by this battery chemistry has made it the option of 
choice in many sectors ranging from consumer devices to 
electric vehicles and stationary grid energy storage systems.
    Lithium-ion batteries are being used in the space sector 
since the late 1990's, and more recently, have been deployed in 
the marine sector, too. Associated with this high energy 
density, though, is the potential for lithium-ion cells to 
undergo catastrophic failures that can generate fire and toxic 
gases when they fail to be designed, manufactured, charged, or 
used correctly.
    One major challenge is the suppression of fires, as you 
just heard. Various difficulties arise. The first is the design 
and location of the battery in an EV. Lithium-ion fires need a 
suppressant that can efficiently cool down all the cells in the 
battery pack in order to prevent reignition. However, the 
physical location of the batteries in the EVs tends to be on 
the underside of the vehicle, which means a rollover of the 
vehicle may be required to manage access.
    Additionally, the batteries are typically in a well-sealed 
container required--that is specifically to prevent water 
ingress in the event of a flood or if the vehicle is driven on 
waterlogged roads. For ease of fire suppression, designs need 
to be developed here in the event of a catastrophic failure. 
Sensors allow the opening of a relief valve in the battery 
pack, which would then be connected to an outlet that is 
accessible from a convenient location. Another area that 
requires research is finding methods to remediate possible 
toxic chemical runoff--suppressant runoff.
    An area of concern for first responders and firefighters 
working with an EV that has undergone a catastrophic failure is 
determining the presence and location of stranded energy. 
Stranded energy is energy that remains in a partially damaged 
battery, which can be quite significant. Based on the design of 
the battery--lithium-ion batteries in EVs, it's possible after 
a fire or other damage that some modules are fully compromised, 
while others are not. And it's also possible to have some cells 
in the modules that are not compromised. So the damaged modules 
may include energetic cells that can also move around when you 
move the vehicle while it's moved to a tow yard. This can cause 
short circuits and possible reignition. So it's critical that 
parts of the battery--to determine if parts of the battery are 
still energized and provide a means to discharge the cells or 
modules before moving the vehicles, and methods need to be 
developed to remotely access the data to determine the 
existence of locations where cells continue to be energized and 
designs that bypass fully compromised modules and discharge the 
energized modules should also be developed.
    So I would like to go on to venting and thermal runaway and 
the release of combustible and toxic gases. My statement has a 
lot of information, which I'm not going to read every part of 
it, but I just want to mention that toxic and corrosive gases 
such as HF and hydrogen cyanide are released. And we have 
found--we have heard from firefighters that even after washing 
their suits, they do find traces of HF on their suits. We also 
know that there are particulate emissions that are given off 
that are in the sub-micron sizes, in orders of magnitude higher 
than the limits established for safe human exposure. The type 
of respirators used by first responders may also need to be 
reevaluated for their suitability to be worn during EV fire 
suppressions. And I also mentioned that the materials that are 
used in the suits may also need to be researched and determine 
if new types of materials need to be used.
    Other things that I wanted to talk about are mechanical 
impacts, talk about fast charging. That is a concern. We would 
like to have more research that is done in the area of fast 
charging.
    And the last thing I also wanted to mention is 
cybersecurity. With the ease of updating EV vehicles and 
battery software remotely, it also makes it very attractive, 
but there are cybersecurity concerns.
    And lastly, regulations need to be in place, where one can 
actually recognize a vehicle, that it is an EV or plugin--or 
any type of an EV. And also the firefighters are given enough 
information to work with the vehicle.
    Again, thank you all for the opportunity to address the 
House Science Committee. I look forward to addressing your 
questions and comments.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Jeevarajan follows:]
     GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT
    Chairman Obernolte. Well, thank you very much. And thank 
you to both our witnesses for your testimony.
    I'll now recognize myself for 5 minutes for questions.
    Chief Munsey, thanks again for being here. Our county is 
larger than most States, and that prevents--presents some 
unique challenges in ignition--extinguishing fires. I was 
struck by, in listening to your testimony, some of the vast 
amounts of water that's required to put out EV fires. What do 
you do if you're responding to a fire and you don't have a 
hydrant readily available? Or what do you do when an incline is 
so steep, as it is in many places in our district, when just 
getting access to the EV is a challenge?
    Mr. Munsey. These are challenges. I'll point out that the 
15 freeway--if we shut down the 15 freeway, there's several 
million dollars of commerce that's affected per hour. So an EV 
fire on the freeway, it's best to extinguish it rather than let 
it burn out. That would be option No. 1, the preferable method, 
just let it burn.
    On the 15 freeway in our desert areas or in our mountain 
areas where we wouldn't have hydrants that are nearby, we 
really don't have a lot of options except for using a fire 
blanket that was demonstrated in the video to help control that 
fire. Two would be to bring a dip tank to the site and fill it. 
Other than that, there really is no other options. If we start 
attacking these fires using tank water, meaning the water tank 
on the fire engine, these are typically only 500 to 750 gallons 
of water. You're quickly going to run out of water, and this 
fire is going to flare up. This could ensnarl traffic, or it 
could, in a bad scenario, start a wildland fire, and now we do 
not have any water to suppress this wildland fire.
    Chairman Obernolte. Thank you. It's a serious problem.
    Dr. Jeevarajan, I was interested in the part of your 
testimony where you were talking about how necessary it is to 
know exactly where the battery cells are and to be able to get 
access to them to be able to cool them all down to prevent 
reignition. There's kind of a similar problem with aircraft and 
with airport firefighters needing to know where the fuel is, 
where the emergency exits are. And that's why there are 
standard markings on aircraft to designate emergency exits. And 
most airport firefighting--firefighters are provided with 
manuals that have a page for each type of airplane that 
operates at that airport commonly that shows where the 
flammables are, the fuel and the hydraulics and the oxygen, so 
that the firefighters are aware of that danger. Do you think 
that something like that would reduce the risk in EVs and share 
that knowledge about where these battery cells are located?
    Dr. Jeevarajan. Sure. As you know, that cells are located--
all the batteries are located on the underside, below the 
passenger compartment. And they pretty much are through the 
entire bottom of the vehicle. That also helps with the center 
of gravity. So one of the things that we are looking at, within 
the SAE, is writing a standard that--I think it's called J3108, 
which is going to be looking at putting some type of a symbol 
on the registration plates that will tell people what type of 
vehicle it is, whether it's a gasoline vehicle or electric 
vehicle, and it could be pure battery electric vehicle or a 
PHEV (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle) or a HEV (hybrid 
electric vehicles). And I think that's still not in place yet, 
but at some point when that comes in place, then people should 
be able to just look at it and then go and figure out or 
translate it to something like what I would call a QR code, but 
it's really just going and looking for a manual that says where 
the battery is or what type it is.
    But I also think the bigger thing is like design that is 
required. If you have an excess of production of gas, a rupture 
valve or something opens up, that would allow the firefighters 
to be able to connect to the inside of the battery because that 
will also reduce the amount of water that is needed because at 
this time, you know, you're really not able to get to the 
cells. So just trying to cool the outside of the battery is 
insufficient, which is why it takes a lot more water to put out 
the fire. And of course, you're not really reaching the cell, 
so you're not really putting out the entire problem. So I think 
that there needs to be a little bit more research and design 
and engineering that goes into this, and I think we can get to 
that.
    Chairman Obernolte. All right. Thank you.
    Chief Munsey, part of your testimony that you touched on 
just briefly involved the modification of electric vehicles and 
how hazardous that could be because it creates unapparent and 
unintended consequences in sometimes causing fires, but our 
home State of California has a rich tradition of allowing 
hobbyists to modify vehicles. So how do you balance those two 
ideas? Because they seem to be in tension.
    Mr. Munsey. I enjoy working on old cars and motorcycles 
myself, and if I look at the quote from Alfred Lord Tennyson on 
the wall about looking into the future, that is something we 
need to do when it comes to electric vehicles. The fact is 
lithium-ion batteries that are poorly made and do not meet 
certification cause fires. My greatest fear is 20, 25 years 
down the line, as these cars are aging, we will have the home 
mechanics that are replacing batteries with poorly made, 
cheaper batteries that could cause fires. This is a concern to 
me. And while I believe that people should be able to work on 
hobbies, we just need to make sure that we're giving them the 
ability to purchase the correct batteries, to install them 
correctly to maintain their vehicles.
    Chairman Obernolte. All right. Thank you. Well, I see I am 
out of time.
    I'll now recognize the Ranking Member, Mrs. Foushee, for 5 
minutes for questions.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Dr. Jeevarajan, I'll direct my initial question to you. I 
think we've acknowledged that, as EVs become more popular, that 
EV battery fires are going to become more common. As an expert 
in lithium-ion battery safety, what do you believe are the 
biggest research gaps in EV battery safety?
    Dr. Jeevarajan. I think I've mentioned most of it in my 
statement. I think the fire suppression methods need to be 
optimized. Getting the suppressants in our vehicle designs, to 
the cells in the battery pack, those need to be optimized. 
Stranded energy, understanding stranded energy is something 
that we need to work on. There should be remote ways to 
actually access the data. There can be software platforms that 
can be developed that can remotely understand what's going on 
in the battery, which areas are energized and so on. And that 
will give a better idea for the firefighters and first 
responders to determine which modules need to be discharged. 
And that requires some science also.
    Back in the late 1900's, early 2000's at NASA I worked on a 
project where we were looking at doing an upgrade to the APU 
(auxiliary power unit) system. The APU at that time--or the APU 
for the shuttle used hydrazine as a fuel. And we were looking 
to convert it to an electric APU. So we looked at a large 
battery. This was like more than 300-volt battery. And at that 
time--it was lithium-ion. And the way we had designed it is, we 
need to have two-failure tolerance, which means even if two 
cells in the battery pack failed, we would need to still have 
power because it is a critical part of the shuttle. So we were 
designing bypass for cells that failed. And I think things--
designs like that can easily be done. I mean, I don't say easy 
because these are high voltage systems, have a lot of cells in 
them, but there are engineering and scientific methods to be 
able to do those types of--have those types of designs 
developed. And so then we can actually bypass--once we know 
which modules have energy in them, they can be bypassed. And 
the ones that are energized can still be discharged. I think it 
just requires a lot more work.
    I talked about cybersecurity. One of our sister 
institutions is the Digital Safety Research Institute, and 
they're worried about cybersecurity. And I think when you have 
the ease of updating your software in vehicles so easily, there 
is the possibility of people messing up with that also, so 
there needs to be security, you know, plans developed, making 
sure software used follows standards, and standards are used to 
certify them, and so on.
    So there are several areas again, looking at the different 
chemistries, trying to understand if we need new materials for 
firefighters, as well as trying to understand if we need better 
respirators. There's a lot of scientific research that can be 
carried out. And I think we will be working on several of 
these. And we would certainly like to work on more of these 
to--one of the goals for my institute is to advance safer 
energy storage through science, and so we really would like to 
be involved with carrying out such research and collaborating 
with many agencies, academia and so on, to get to a point where 
EVs are safer.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you for that. So firefighters face 
grave dangers on the job, and it is crucial that the protective 
gear and equipment available to them is capable of keeping them 
safe. I find it concerning that so little is known about the 
effectiveness of traditional protective gear when firefighters 
are exposed to battery smoke, which is very different from 
traditional car fires.
    Chief Munsey, can you describe your department's experience 
with using conventional protective gear to protect firefighters 
while responding to EV fires? You showed a little bit of that 
in that video that we saw from another area, but I'd like to 
hear from your experience.
    Mr. Munsey. So we've only had a couple of EV fires in our 
county, despite responding to 196,000 calls per year and 
serving an almost 2.2 million population. Electric vehicle 
fires are not common today. I'm worried about the future. Our 
experience with personal protective equipment is we are 
concerned about our firefighters' safety. As I mentioned, 
cancer is at a higher rate in firefighters today. I've 
personally been to five cancer funerals for our members in the 
last 5 years. We're going to do everything we can to keep our 
members safe. What this means is that we issue second sets of 
full turnouts. These turnout gears are between $5-10,000 per 
ensemble. We require that they laundry those between normal--
just normal combustible fires. But when you're talking about 
electric vehicle fires and the gases, we need to take that full 
ensemble out of service and send it to a manufacturer--or to a 
specialized cleaning service to be cleaned. At that point, 
about 4 percent of the personal protective equipment then fails 
that cleaning service, requiring us to purchase new gear for 
our firefighters.
    Some of the information that Dr. Jeevarajan--did I say that 
right--just gave is very concerning to me. HF is a very--
hydrogen fluorine is very concerning chemicals to firefighters. 
It's very dangerous. I don't know that there's been enough 
research here that the structure--protective equipment that we 
wear truly is adequate for these types of fires, especially 
when it's pressurized gas in a container like the garage video 
that you saw.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Chairman, that's my time.
    Chairman Obernolte. OK.
    Mrs. Foushee. I yield back.
    Chairman Obernolte. The gentlewoman yields back. We'll hear 
next from my colleague from California. Mr. Garcia, you're 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the--both 
the witnesses for this testimony, very eye-opening. As someone 
who drives an electric vehicle, I know--I knew there were a lot 
of unknowns, but seeing that video, I certainly will be parking 
in the driveway from here on out.
    I want to thank you for putting a bright light on these 
issues around the potential fire dangers of EVs. Chief, thank 
you for your service. Doctor, thank you for everything you do 
for our great country.
    When you look at the potential energy if you will of an 
electric vehicle, lithium-ion, any sort of lithium-based 
battery, it's substantial. But when you look at actual other 
projects that we're looking at throughout the Nation relative 
to electric storage, it makes an electric vehicle look tiny. 
Next door to you in L.A. County where I represent, southern 
California, north L.A. County, Acton/Agua Dulce area, they are 
installing something that is called a battery electric storage 
system, which is a huge facility full of lithium battery 
capacitors, capacity basically being kept there while their 
sources of electric energy are being, you know, pushed to that 
site.
    And so, Chief, you're the Fire Chief of San Bernardino 
County. I know you don't work in L.A. County, but we're 
neighbors, and sometimes our sparks turn into your flames and 
vice versa. So this is an issue that may actually reach out and 
touch you. But I want to play a quick game of good idea/bad 
idea. And these aren't trick questions by the way. This isn't 
the Oversight--the other Oversight Committee. But--and I'll go 
first.
    Is it a good idea to have large battery facilities--large 
battery storage facilities for the purpose of making sure that 
the grid can handle some of the demands that we have? I would 
say that's a good idea. I think we need to have electric 
storage facilities. I think long term when we look at a 
holistic approach, we've got to have all types of energy coming 
to especially southern California. So I would say that is a 
good idea. Go ahead.
    Mr. Munsey. So you mean a battery storage facility as 
properly engineered to prevent fire?
    Mr. Garcia. Correct. Yes, that's what--and, yes, there a 
lot of assumptions that go into that. And this is where the 
good idea/bad idea to you comes from. Would you consider it a 
good idea or a bad idea to put a facility like that next to 
either the I-15 in your case or, in my case, the 14 freeway, 
which is the major choke point, biggest freeway--one of the 
biggest freeways in southern California? Is that a good idea or 
a bad idea, literally, you know, 200 yards off the freeway?
    Mr. Munsey. That's a local policy decision. If--as a Fire 
Chief, I would say that if that is a well-engineered, well-
maintained, well-monitored system, then there's going to be a 
low risk and a low frequency. If there was an ignition, though, 
that is going to be an extremely hard fire to suppress in a 
short amount of time.
    Mr. Garcia. Understood.
    Mr. Munsey. And that could cause some economic damage to 
the city.
    Mr. Garcia. Yes, and like you said, major commerce corridor 
for southern California. Same kind of good idea/bad idea, if in 
between that freeway and this battery storage facility there's 
actually a railroad, which is one of the corridors being looked 
at for high-speed rail as well, would you put that in the good 
idea or bad idea bucket with the same caveats that you don't 
work there, you don't, you know, work in L.A. County, it's 
well-engineered? But is it a good idea or bad idea?
    Mr. Munsey. We get these questions, too, from our cities 
that are looking at putting these battery systems near 
infrastructure, critical infrastructure, near schools, near 
residential neighborhoods, near freeways. And as we look at 
population density and the density in our communities, it's 
going to be necessary to put these systems somewhere in the 
near future. Again, I'll go back it needs--must be well-
maintained, it must be well-engineered, it must be well-
monitored. And if that's the case, you're going to have a low 
risk, low frequency. But if any of those are violated, you're 
going to have a higher risk and a higher frequency for 
ignition.
    Mr. Garcia. Potentially catastrophic results as a result of 
that--those things.
    For the sake of time, I'll condense the last few, but I 
want to just make a point to my colleagues. And I'm not 
speaking to our two witnesses here. But in L.A. County, they 
have decided to put one of these BESS facilities, battery 
electronic storage system facilities, massive facilities next 
to the 14 with a railroad going by it within a couple miles of 
a large water reservoir that feeds about a--or that hydrates 
about a quarter-million folks. It already has existing large-
gauge transmission wires overhead so that if something happens 
below them, they are going to be compromised. And it's 
surrounded by some of the largest wildlands that have--in Acton 
and Agua Dulce in terms of the amount of BTUs in those 
wildlands right now, probably the highest potential energy of 
fuel.
    And so, you know, I guess my message is--I appreciate what 
you guys have highlighted today, the risks, the concerns of an 
electric vehicle. And to my colleagues in L.A. County, this 
BESS facility being discussed in Acton is, in my opinion, 
setting us up for failure. And if it--anything goes wrong, we 
are going to recognize one of the biggest catastrophic losses 
of life and resources. And hopefully, they can reconsider--to 
the points that you made, Chief--everything that we've 
discussed around this.
    So with that, I yield back. Thank you.
    Chairman Obernolte. The gentleman yields back.
    We'll hear next from the Ranking Member of the full 
Committee. Congresswoman Lofgren, you're recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Ms. Lofgren. Well, thank you very much. And thanks to our 
two witnesses.
    Chief, you've identified something important, which is the 
need to--for more research on protective gear and how it 
relates to EV fires.
    So, Doctor, are we actually on a path to get that research 
done? What further work needs to be addressed by this Committee 
to make sure that the Chief's identified need is met?
    Dr. Jeevarajan. We actually haven't started any research in 
that specific area. Our area of research is now looking at 
different battery chemistries and what gases come out of it. HF 
is really difficult to detect. We know it is there because if 
we heat up our pipes, the lines that go into an FTIR (Fourier 
Transform Infrared Spectroscopy), we are able to see the 
signals for HF although noisy. We recognize the presence of HF, 
but we're not able to get a quantitative measurement. So we're 
really working on getting better estimates of that. But that 
would be one of the areas I think I would certainly look into 
talking to the materials people to see if they can do some work 
on getting new materials that would be tolerant to HF.
    Ms. Lofgren. Mr. Chairman, this is an important hearing, 
and I'm hoping that after the hearing, we can have a discussion 
about what we need to do as a Science Committee to make sure 
that these identified needs are actually addressed because, 
Chief, we're so grateful to you and all the firefighters in the 
country for keeping us safe. But the more we can do to reduce 
your risks and the risks of your men and women, that's 
something--it's really a sacred obligation for us to do.
    The fact that we're not really addressing the need that 
you've identified, I guess, makes me wonder whether you think 
the firefighting community has clear lines of communication to 
researchers and manufacturers so that the needs you're 
identifying, and not just this one, are actually being 
researched. Do you think that exists now?
    Mr. Munsey. Well, I'm a strong supporter of the 
International Association of Fire Chiefs and other like 
associations. There are some fire service members that are not, 
and they are cutting off their own lines of communications. 
It's important that we're speaking with one voice, that we're 
doing that through our associations and the U.S. Fire 
Administrator, Dr. Lori Moore-Merrell. These are important 
things for us to work closely with research and for us to 
understand how to keep our firefighters safe. But just as 
important, we need your help in this. We need to ensure that we 
are enacting legislation that the manufacturer of these 
electric vehicles prevent fires from happening.
    Ms. Lofgren. Yes.
    Mr. Munsey. We need to make sure that we have access to 
funds to properly equip and train and buy the equipment--the 
tools and equipment that are needed to suppress these fires 
without putting our communities in danger.
    Ms. Lofgren. I totally agree with all of that, but we also 
have, you know, a very large number of EVs out on the road 
today, and we need to make sure if there--it's apparently a low 
risk, but it is a risk. And when it happens, we need to make 
sure that the men and women who respond are as safe as 
possible. And so that's why I want to hone in on these--the 
need to research further, the protective gear.
    You know, one of the questions I had, Doctor, is you 
mentioned cybersecurity. I don't know whether we need to be 
concerned about whether cyber attacks could actually instigate 
a failure or an ignition of a battery, or whether just failure 
of code itself could do that. Can you discuss that and whether 
we need to be taking steps in that area?
    Dr. Jeevarajan. Sure. So one of the things that a battery 
has is a battery management system, and it also has an energy 
management system. And it's actually talking to the charger. 
It's talking to the loads and so on. And as you know, there are 
very easy ways to update software today. And given that, the 
battery needs really very stringent safety controls, if 
something is messed up and someone does it on purpose actually, 
then they could mess up the safety controls and you could have 
a catastrophic failure with your battery. Because today, the 
way the manufacturers design the battery and how it's used is 
they do not use the entire voltage range of the battery. They 
use a very small range because that not only ensures safety, 
but it also extends the life of the battery. But if you have 
that changed in some manner, you can easily have a catastrophic 
failure induced.
    Ms. Lofgren. Well, thank you for that. And thank you for 
both. And that's another issue, Mr. Chairman, I hope we can 
discuss further. I don't think most of the manufacturers have 
really addressed cybersecurity, and it's something we might ask 
NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) to 
identify and provide some standards.
    So, Chief and Doctor, you've--you're serving your country 
well. Thank you very much, and I yield back.
    Chairman Obernolte. The gentlewoman yields back.
    We'll hear next from my colleague from Georgia. Mr. 
McCormick, you're recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I'll get right to the point because we have a lot to cover. 
Just last year, the Biden Administration announced a mandate of 
having 50 percent of all new vehicle sales in the United States 
to be electric by 2030. According to the NFPA (National Fire 
Protection Association), approximately 130 million EVs are 
projected to be in operation worldwide by 2030, not very far in 
the future. There are an estimated 283 million registered 
vehicles here in the United States. Now, if we're about to add 
half of that, it'd be well over 100 million vehicles in the 
United States with the same hazards that we've been talking 
about today. Although the number of battery fires we've had in 
the United States is small, it won't be. That's a fact.
    Chief, as Fire Chief of San Bernardino County, do you 
believe your fire department is fully prepared to handle the 
challenges that come with rapid rise of EV ownership in your 
area of expertise?
    Mr. Munsey. No, nor do I believe that the fire service is 
ready as a whole.
    Mr. McCormick. Great. According to the National Volunteer 
Fire Council, there are approximately 29,452 fire departments 
in the country--that's a lot--with 24,208 fire departments that 
are either entirely or mostly made up of volunteer 
firefighters. Given that volunteer, do you think that there's 
any way to prepare these guys for the future challenges of 
fighting EV fires?
    Mr. Munsey. Yes, given time and sufficient funding.
    Mr. McCormick. Time and efficient--sufficient funding. We 
have approximately--less--about 5 years' time. And the funding, 
which we know we have a problem with our funding on everything 
right now, do you think that's a realistic timeline to be ready 
for that sort of influx of EV fires?
    Mr. Munsey. To add on to your statistics, there's 1.1 
million firefighters. I gave you a price of $2,500 training per 
firefighter. I would estimate that that's about a 16-hour 
class. That's about a $3 billion problem just in training 
itself. I mentioned that we're going to get a heavier wrecker 
and a dip tank. Not every organization is going to be able to 
do that. That needs to be a regional asset. Those that--about 
$2 million for that ensemble starts adding up.
    You mentioned there's close to 30,000 fire agencies, and 
you are correct. Each fire agency probably on average has three 
fire apparatus. And if you were to fully equip these fire 
apparatus, you're looking at, again, hundreds of millions of 
dollars, billions of dollars.
    Mr. McCormick. And then you add to that the development, 
dissemination, and training of new assets, which is to add 
another chemical to the repertoire, but I'll leave it to the 
scientists on my next question.
    Doctor, do you believe that we have adequate technology and 
training today that is easily accessible for all fire 
departments to use in this regard?
    Dr. Jeevarajan. There are some things that have been put 
out because we're still in the research stage for some of the--
--
    Mr. McCormick. Some things, but we're not adequately 
prepared across the board, correct?
    Dr. Jeevarajan. We are----
    Mr. McCormick. We'd all agree on that?
    Dr. Jeevarajan. Yes, we would.
    Mr. McCormick. OK. Do you think it's legitimate that we 
could develop, disseminate, and afford these chemicals that we 
find--and, by the way, I'm a marine--that we have just recently 
addressed in Camp Lejeune the chemicals that we use to fight 
other chemicals and fires that have leached into the water 
system that have caused cancer and other harm to people, that 
we haven't even studied those side effects, but yet, in 5 
years, we're supposed to have not only the means, but also the 
studies to support that we're not going to harm people more 
than the carbon emissions that we have right now. Do you think 
this is a realistic goal?
    Dr. Jeevarajan. It depends on how much funding is----
    Mr. McCormick. Yes, it depends on funding. So it comes back 
to if we spend a trillion dollars on this, we might be able to 
be somewhat safe. But let me kind of summarize this because I 
think this is what this is all about. This whole movement, this 
green movement is about saving people, I hope, by making sure 
we take care of the environment. So I want to point out that in 
this whole ridiculous idea that we're going to spend a trillion 
dollars to eliminate .00017 percent at most of the car--of the 
atmospheric content, in other words, that carbon emissions that 
we produce by 100 percent of our carbon imprint of vehicles. 
And I'm telling you, I could do the math for you later, but its 
infinitesimal. It is negligible if we eliminate all the cars in 
the United States. That's how much impact we'll have on the 
overall content of the atmosphere.
    We're going to spend a trillion dollars, we're going to 
create chemicals, we're going to create fires, we're going to 
create hazards. If you don't care about the $17,000 per average 
car vehicle that the poor person has to afford, if you don't 
care that there's going to be exposure to people who are trying 
to fight fires and that this is going to leach into the 
system--the very environment you're trying to save, chemicals 
that leach into the environment, chemicals that get into 
people's bodies trying to fight these fires.
    If we're talking about the environment, I really don't 
think we're having an honest conversation. I think that's where 
we need to start this. And this idea that we're saving the 
atmosphere by creating chemicals and creating hazards to people 
that we're trying to save is ludicrous.
    And with that, I yield.
    Chairman Obernolte. The gentleman yields back.
    That concludes our questions. I'd like to thank the 
witnesses for your very valuable testimony and your appearance 
here today before the Committee.
    It's very clear, I think, two things have come out of this 
hearing. One, I very much agree with Ranking Member Lofgren 
that more research is necessary to make sure that we're making 
informed decisions around dealing with this problem. And I also 
very much agree with Chief Munsey that it's clear more 
resources and more training are going to be necessary to keep 
our firefighters and first responders safe. So we're going to 
continue having this discussion and hopefully be able to take 
steps toward solutions to this as more and more of the vehicles 
on our roads become EVs.
    The record will remain open for 10 days for additional 
comments and written questions from our Members.
    With that, this hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:23 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

                               Appendix I

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                   Answers to Post-Hearing Questions




                   Answers to Post-Hearing Questions
Responses by Mr. Dan Munsey
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Responses by Dr. Judy Jeevarajan
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                              Appendix II

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                   Additional Material for the Record




            Statement submitted by Representative Max Miller
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