[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]



                ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND INTELLECTUAL
                     PROPERTY: PART II-IDENTITY IN
                             THE AGE OF AI

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON COURTS, INTELLECTUAL
                       PROPERTY, AND THE INTERNET

                                 OF THE

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________


                        FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 2, 2024

                               __________


                           Serial No. 118-61

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary





                 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]







               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov

                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

54-845                    WASHINGTON : 2024












                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

DARRELL ISSA, California             JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking 
KEN BUCK, Colorado                       Member
MATT GAETZ, Florida                  ZOE LOFGREN, California
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
TOM McCLINTOCK, California           STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin               HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky                  Georgia
CHIP ROY, Texas                      ADAM SCHIFF, California
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina           J. LUIS CORREA, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             ERIC SWALWELL, California
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          TED LIEU, California
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
KELLY ARMSTRONG, North Dakota        JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  LUCY McBATH, Georgia
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
KEVIN KILEY, California              CORI BUSH, Missouri
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             GLENN IVEY, Maryland
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               BECCA BALINT, Vermont
LAUREL LEE, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina

                                 ------                                

           SUBCOMMITTEE ON COURTS, INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY, AND
                              THE INTERNET

                    DARRELL ISSA, California, Chair

THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin              Georgia, Ranking Member
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  TED LIEU, California
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
KEVIN KILEY, California              ADAM SCHIFF, California
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               ZOE LOFGREN, California
LAUREL LEE, Florida                  MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          GLENN IVEY, Maryland

               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
         AARON HILLER, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff










                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                        Friday, February 2, 2024

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Darrell Issa, Chair of the Subcommittee on Courts, 
  Intellectual Property, and the Internet from the State of 
  California.....................................................     1
The Honorable Henry C. ``Hank'' Johnson, Ranking Member of the 
  Subcommittee on Courts, Intellectual Property, and the Internet 
  from the State of Georgia......................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Lainey Wilson, 2024 GRAMMY Nominee, Reigning CMA Entertainer of 
  the Year, ACM Female Artist of the Year
  Oral Testimony.................................................     5
  Prepared Testimony.............................................     8
Harvey Mason, Jr., President & CEO, Recording Academy
  Oral Testimony.................................................    10
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    12
Christopher A. Mohr, President, Software and Information Industry 
  Association
  Oral Testimony.................................................    15
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    17
Jennifer E. Rothman, Nicholas F. Gallicchio Professor of Law, 
  University of Pennsylvania Law School
  Oral Testimony.................................................    27
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    29

          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

All materials submitted by the Subcommittee on Courts, 
  Intellectual Property, and the Internet, for the record........    69

Materials submitted by the Honorable Madeleine Dean, a Member of 
  the Subcommittee on Courts, Intellectual Property, and the 
  Internet from the State of Pennsylvania, for the record
  An article entitled, ``Taylor Swift and No AI Fraud Act: How 
      Congress plans to fight back against AI deepfakes,'' Jan. 
      30, 2024, ABC News
  An article entitled, ``Nicki Minaj, Cardi B & More Support `No 
      AI Fraud' Bill In Congress,'' Feb. 2, 2024, Billboard

                                APPENDIX

Materials submitted by the Honorable Darrell Issa, Chair of the 
  Subcommittee on Courts, Intellectual Property, and the Internet 
  from the State of California, for the record
  Letter from the Digital Media Association (DiMA) to the 
      Honorable Darrell Issa, Chair of the Subcommittee on 
      Courts, Intellectual Property, and the Internet from the 
      State of California and the Honorable Henry C. ``Hank'' 
      Johnson, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Courts, 
      Intellectual Property, and the Internet from the State of 
      Georgia
  Statement from Motion Picture Association, Inc. (MPA)
  Letter from Public Knowledge to the Honorable Darrell Issa, 
      Chair of the Subcommittee on Courts, Intellectual Property, 
      and the Internet from the State of California and the 
      Honorable Henry C. ``Hank'' Johnson, Ranking Member of the 
      Subcommittee on Courts, Intellectual Property, and the 
      Internet from the State of Georgia

                 QUESTIONS AND RESPONSES FOR THE RECORD

Questions for Jennifer E. Rothman, Nicholas F. Gallicchio 
  Professor of Law, University of Pennsylvania Law School, 
  submitted by the Honorable Madeleine Dean, a Member of the 
  Subcommittee on Courts, Intellectual Property, and the Internet 
  from the State of Pennsylvania, for the record
Response to questions from Jennifer E. Rothman, Nicholas F. 
  Gallicchio Professor of Law, University of Pennsylvania Law 
  School
Questions for Christopher A. Mohr, President, Software and 
  Information Industry Association, and Harvey Mason, Jr., 
  President & CEO, Recording Academy, submitted by the Honorable 
  Kevin Kiley, a Member of the Subcommittee on Courts, 
  Intellectual Property, and the Internet from the State of 
  California, for the record
Questions for Harvey Mason, Jr., President & CEO, Recording 
  Academy, Christopher A. Mohr, President, Software and 
  Information Industry Association, and Jennifer E. Rothman, 
  Nicholas F. Gallicchio Professor of Law, University of 
  Pennsylvania Law School, submitted by the Honorable Darrell 
  Issa, Chair of the Subcommittee on Courts, Intellectual 
  Property, and the Internet from the State of California, for 
  the record
Response to questions from Jennifer E. Rothman, Nicholas F. 
  Gallicchio Professor of Law, University of Pennsylvania Law 
  School







 
                ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND INTELLECTUAL
                     PROPERTY: PART II-IDENTITY IN
                             THE AGE OF AI

                              ----------                              


                        Friday, February 2, 2024

                        House of Representatives

           Subcommittee on Courts, Intellectual Property, and

                              the Internet

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:15 a.m., PT, at 
the Los Angeles Convention Center, Theater 411, 1201 S. 
Figueroa Street, Los Angeles, California, the Hon. Darrell Issa 
presiding.
    Present: Representatives Issa, Fitzgerald, Kiley, Moran, 
Johnson of Georgia, Lieu, Schiff, Dean, and Ivey.
    Also present: Representatives Gaetz and Bush.
    Mr. Issa. The Subcommittee will come to order. Without 
objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess at any 
time.
    Today we welcome everyone here for this hearing entitled, 
``Artificial Intelligence and Intellectual Property: Part II.'' 
That is because Part I was in Nashville, and Nashville is not 
the only center of great intellectual property creation. I 
think Mr. Schiff and I, as Californians, and some others would 
certainly be the first to say that.
    I now recognize myself for an official opening statement.
    This Subcommittee has been at the forefront of intellectual 
property protection for decades. In fact, we are entrusted with 
that protection by the Constitution, and as one of the oldest 
Committees of the Congress we take that seriously.
    For all those who have been involved in AI, they recognize 
it isn't new, and the problems of AI are not new. Just as 
Moore's Law created an acceleration of processing power and 
speed, regenerative AI is doing that before our very eyes 
today. So, today we will be focusing on what has been with us 
for a long time, problems that have been created, unsolved and 
untreated, that must be treated sooner rather than later.
    We also will recognize that there is already a disparity in 
laws between States. Some of those laws are models for the 
Federal Government to adapt. Others may, in fact, be ones in 
which the Federal Government needs to intervene to create a 
stable and productive platform for copyright.
    Copyright and trademark do not exist as rights, even though 
we call them intellectual property rights. They are 
inducements. They are a balancing act. I always remind people 
that this balancing act and that inducement must, from time to 
time, be checked to find are we, in fact, rewarding the 
creators of intellectual property sufficiently. Are we 
protecting the rights that come from that inducement in a way 
in which one creator does not find themselves at a disadvantage 
to another creator?
    Many people view themselves as creators of intellectual 
property. More than 20 years ago, before another Committee of 
Congress, a former Congressman came in and proudly showed us a 
CD that he had created and given more than 100 as Christmas 
presents for. It was, in fact, the works of half a dozen 
different artists, in a unique way, and he said, ``This doesn't 
exist anywhere else. I created this.'' There was not one new 
song. They simply were put onto a CD in a very interesting way. 
There wasn't even a voiceover from the Congressman.
    I sat in that Committee hearing, before Energy and 
Commerce, and, in fact, saw heads nodding saying, ``Well, yes, 
you created something.'' He no more created something than, in 
fact, if the perfect likeness of any performing artist were 
simply taken and used again.
    That is not to say that a cover band does not have the 
ability to perform with the attempt to entertain, but it does 
mean that AI has an unlimited ability to duplicate, and we, 
today, will, in fact, be dealing with that question.
    A vivid example are deep fakes. Deep fakes are clearly 
abuses of AI that raise the question of whether AI technology 
can be used to spread misinformation. That is not a question 
any longer. It has been answered. The question is will we 
protect celebrities from deep fakes? Will we, in fact, protect 
politicians from appearing to say something even worse than 
what we say in real life?
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Issa. I knew that would be a crowd pleaser.
    Fundamentally, what AI does is it does perfectly, or can do 
perfectly, that which we have mimicked for generations. Most 
great lasting pieces of music are, in fact, passed down from 
generation to generation, and before they were passed down in 
writing they were passed down by performers in front of each 
other, teaching the next generation how to do something. So, 
there is nothing wrong with that continuity. The continuity 
that is created by man has already been legislated in a way to 
protect for 70 years past the life of that creator. That is not 
the case today under AI.
    It is critical that the development of the technology be 
ethical and not harmful. Ethnical and not harmful is a standard 
that we believe can be achieved, but it is going to have to 
also be uniform within the United States, and the United States 
must lead the world in that ethical and not harmful.
    Not only is it important for the economy, but it is 
important for American technology leadership. It is not just 
about the copyright holders of today and those who will 
generate new copyright with the assistance of AI. It is about 
whether America will lead the world into a greater efficiency 
using AI and, quite frankly, more things that please, that 
amuse, that, in fact, do what entertainers, artists, writers 
have done for thousands of years.
    This also includes a respect for the freedom that we enjoy 
in our system. Our very Constitution was, in fact, a plagiarism 
of great ideas of the past, but it was put together in an 
original way that has sustained us for 200 years. There will be 
other hearings that, in fact, will deal with the impact to 
patents and others. There will be others that will deal 
directly with trademarks. There will be others that deal with 
other parts of intellectual property. Today, I think we are 
going to focus on our witnesses and what they can show us has 
happened to them in real life and what we can do about it.
    With that I just want to take a moment and give us all a 
reflection on one of my favorite artists of the past, and so 
could we present my friend and a man I actually saw in concert.
    [Video plays.]
    Mr. Issa. I am sure you will all see that again in days to 
come.
    Our challenge is to make sure that if somebody wants to 
make something that the late Johnny Cash didn't make and 
couldn't make because it wasn't even available, if you will, 
with the new Barbie movie, that his State, for that likeness, 
be properly compensated. That will be one of the questions for 
today.
    With that I recognize the Ranking Member for his opening 
statement.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for calling 
this important hearing today. Thank you for that visual 
demonstration of why it is important that we are here today.
    Mr. Issa. You can pick your star when you have got the 
gavel too, my friend.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Well, you have set the template, so 
I like it.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. I thank you for hosting the 
Subcommittee out here in Los Angeles, taking our show on the 
road. This is the mecca of artistry and creativity, culture, as 
well as economic vitality. Also, this hearing could not come at 
a better time, on a weekend where the music industry is set to 
celebrate the best and the brightest, the up and comers, and 
the living legends.
    We are here to examine how current laws and future 
legislation can protect creators from misuse of a technology 
that is posed to transform the world as we know it. Drake and 
The Weeknd didn't collaborate to produce ``Heart on my 
Sleeve,'' and President Biden didn't record a robocall telling 
the New Hampshire Democrats not to vote in their primary, and 
Tom Hanks did not appear in a video endorsing a dental plan. 
They didn't have to. Using generative artificial intelligence, 
or generative AI, a layperson can manipulate an individual's 
image, likeness, or voice to produce novel content without the 
subject's knowledge or consent. Altering voices and 
manipulating images is nothing new, but creating new material 
indistinguishable from reality is.
    Because of these technological advancements, 2024 will be 
the first AI Presidential election, where deep fake and 
misinformation will have the power to deceive voters, making an 
abnormally consequential election even more consequential and 
controversial. Abuse of women through the creation of explicit 
images with generative AI is already a problem, and if you 
don't believe me, ask Taylor Swift about that. Consumer fraud 
and other criminality accomplished through the replication of 
loved ones' voices is no longer an esoteric law school 
hypothetical.
    Beyond the parade of horribles, generative AI poses unique 
challenges to the creative industries in which AI has the 
potential to create an even larger gap between the haves and 
the have nots. Aspiring singers, songwriters, and musicians 
move to cities like Atlanta, where I am from, every day, in the 
hopes of breaking into the music industry. These individuals, 
including many who become my constituents, often work multiple 
jobs while they pursue their dream of being able to make a 
living wage based on their creative talents alone. Between 
COVID shutdowns of concert venues and increased costs of 
living, artists in my district already feel their dream is even 
farther out of reach.
    Misuse of generative AI technologies could compound that 
problem. For example, copyright laws protecting an aspiring 
singer from having her work performed without compensation, but 
that copyright does not necessarily extend to the sound of her 
voice. AI can create an original background track in her voice 
simply by ingesting previous recordings without her knowledge, 
without her consent, and certainly without compensation.
    Our question today is not if, but how, Congress should act 
to protect artists from such treatment. It is our 
responsibility as legislators to ensure that the creators who 
enrich our society with their talent and work are able to live 
and thrive in the age of AI. Many States protect the right of 
publicity, but no such right exists at the Federal level. I am 
looking forward to hearing from our witnesses how they believe 
the current system is working and what protections coming out 
of Congress should look like.
    Finally, I recognize that change is not something we can 
ignore. We cannot legislate a perpetual here and now into 
existence, and we should not want to. In addition to the 
profound medical business and therapeutic advancements offered 
by AI, the creative industries themselves have already 
benefited from the incorporation of AI into their artistry and 
business models. Indeed, that same aspiring singer can 
experiment and create new works without the resource-intensive 
equipment and studio time needed just a few years ago.
    I thank the Chair again for holding this important hearing. 
I thank the witnesses for their time. I thank you all for 
attending this consequential hearing. I yield back.
    Mr. Issa. I thank the gentleman.
    Seeing no other opening statements by the Chair or Ranking 
Member, without objection all opening statements will be 
included in the record.
    It is now my pleasure to introduce our distinguished panel 
of witnesses.
    First, Ms. Wilson is singer, songwriter, and actor, whose 
show I watch regularly. She is the reigning Country Music 
Association Entertainer of the Year and Female Vocalist of the 
Year, as well as Academy of Country Music Female Artist of the 
Year. This Sunday, Ms. Wilson will be in the running for not 
one, but two additional GRAMMY Awards, including Best Country 
Music Album. In addition to her successful music career, Ms. 
Wilson has appeared most recently on seasons of the hit show, 
again mentioned, Yellowstone, which, quite frankly, is in the 
tradition--maybe I will stay off that. Thank you for being 
here.
    Next, we have Mr. Harvey Mason, Jr. Mr. Mason is President 
and CEO of the Recording Academy, the world's leading society 
of music professionals, which is best known for putting on the 
GRAMMY Awards themselves. Mr. Mason is also a prolific music 
producer, songwriter, working with numerous artists including 
the late Whitney Houston. In addition, he has also appeared and 
been a mentor and producer of American Idol, the X Factor. 
Additionally, Mr. Mason is an accomplished composer, music 
director, director of films, TV, including hits like Sing and 
the Pitch Perfect movies. Boy, are we lucky to have you here.
    Next, we have Mr. Christopher Mohr. Mr. Mohr is President 
of the Software and Information Industry Association, which has 
a very diversified membership of over 400 companies. Members 
encompass the very companies who are at the forefront of 
developing, applying, and innovating AI technology, including 
the creative industries. In his prior role, Mr. Mohr served as 
the industry's Senior Vice President for Intellectual Property, 
and for decades has been an experienced IP professor and 
professional.
    Next, we have Professor Jennifer Rothman. Professor Rothman 
is at the University of Pennsylvania Law School. She also holds 
a faculty appointment at the Annenberg School of Communication. 
She is internationally recognized as an expert in intellectual 
property law, rights, and publicity, the right of privacy, and 
the intersection of such rights, which include constitutional 
protection of those rights and freedom of speech. Professor 
Rothman is also an elected member of the American Law 
Institute. In addition to her JD from UCLA, Professor Rothman 
also holds a Masters of Fine Arts degree in film production 
from the University of Southern California--the competer to 
UCLA. That is quite a bookend--School of Cinemato-
graphy.
    We welcome all our witnesses, and we are going to begin by 
doing the mundane ask but cool thing for the photograph, of 
asking you to rise and take the oath. If you would raise your 
right hand because it is really good for the picture.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm, under the penalty of 
perjury, that the testimony you will give today will be true 
and correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and 
belief, so help you God?
    Mr. Issa. Please be seated. Let the record reflect that all 
witnesses did answer in the affirmative.
    We will now begin with an amazing, yes, an amazing producer 
of the intellectual property and a victim of AI, Ms. Wilson.

                   STATEMENT OF LAINEY WILSON

    Ms. Wilson. Thank you so much. Chair Issa, Ranking Member 
Johnson, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you so much for 
inviting me here today to share my thoughts.
    I am Lainey Wilson. I am a recording artist, songwriter, 
and entertainer. I use my music and my voice to tell stories, 
to connect to my fans, and to help them connect to each other. 
My art is uniquely, and literally, me: My name, my likeness, 
and my voice.
    I do not have to tell you how much of a gut punch it is to 
have your name, your likeness, or your voice ripped from you 
and used in ways you could never imagine or would never allow. 
It is wrong, plain and simple. There aren't many things we can 
control in life, but making decisions about the use of our own 
selves, our own unique qualities, that should be one.
    I am excited about lots of ways artificial intelligence can 
be used to help people. I am nervous about how it can be used 
to take personal rights. I am honored today to represent the 
Human Artistry Campaign, a coalition of creators and 
organizations that promote the ethical use of AI, and who 
understand that human connection is an essential part of our 
culture that we just can't put at risk.
    Many creators have already seen their life's work and their 
own voices and images thoughtlessly ingested into AI models 
without their permission. Our identities represent years of 
work to hone our craft and make a livelihood out of our 
passion. Our voices and likenesses are indelible parts of us 
that have enabled us to showcase our talents and grow our 
audiences, not mere digital kibble for a machine to duplicate 
without consent. AI tools are purposely being made to take a 
lifetime of specific artists' voices and likenesses in a split 
second.
    Some creators are OK with AI platforms using their voices 
and likenesses, and some are not. The important thing is that 
it should be their choice, and not a choice that an AI cloning 
company gets to make for them. AI-generated music and video 
using an artists' unique identity to perform in questionable 
settings or to sing lyrics they would never write or express, 
that does not truly reflect who they are, is unacceptable. It 
is a personal violation that threatens a person's dignity and 
can put at risk everything they have worked so hard to 
accomplish.
    An artists' voice and likeness are their property and 
should not take a backseat to the economic interests of 
companies that have not invested in or partnered with the 
artist.
    I join with many other creators in the Human Artistry 
Campaign in support of the No AI FRAUD Act, and I want to 
express my deep appreciation to its sponsors. I have heard that 
some interests have criticized it as preventing freedom of 
expression that uses the voices and images of other people. I 
am a big proponent of free speech and I am certainly no lawyer, 
but I do know that if you take away the ability of artists to 
express themselves, you are, by definition, limiting freedom of 
expression.
    It is not just artists who need protecting--the fans need 
it too. It is needed for high school girls who have experienced 
life-altering deep fake porn using their faces; for elderly 
citizens convinced to hand over their life savings by a vocal 
clone of their grandchild in trouble. AI increasingly affects 
every single one of us, and I am so grateful that you are 
considering taking action to ensure that these tools are used 
in a responsible way.
    I want to thank you all for your role as guardians of our 
personal rights. We need artists to keep telling stories, 
connecting with fans, and bringing people together--
authentically. We need to keep humanity in art. We cannot lose 
that. The No AI FRAUD Act is a great place to start. Thank you.
    [Prepared statement of Ms. Wilson follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    
    Mr. Issa. Thank you. Mr. Mason.

                 STATEMENT OF HARVEY MASON, JR.

    Mr. Mason. Thank you. Chair Issa, Ranking Member Johnson, 
and the Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me 
to testify today on the topic of artificial intelligence. My 
name is Harvey Mason, Jr. As CEO of the Recording Academy, I am 
happy to welcome you to Los Angeles for GRAMMY Week, music's 
biggest week.
    The Academy celebrates music every year at the GRAMMY 
Awards, but we also support music through the year as a 
membership organization representing thousands of music 
creators and music professionals. As Chair Issa said, ``I too 
am a music creator. As a songwriter and producer, I have worked 
with legends and superstars from Whitney Houston to Beyonce, 
and Elton John to Justin Bieber.''
    Music makers have always embraced technology to innovate. 
From multitrack recording and the electric guitar to drum 
machines and synthesizers, there are so many examples of 
disruptive, but really cool technologies that changed how music 
is made. AI is the latest example of a tool that can expand 
opportunities for different voices to follow their passion and 
create new music, and we believe that is a good thing.
    AI also has many valuable uses outside of the creative 
process, including those that amplify fan connections, automate 
efficient payment systems, and more. We embrace these advances, 
and the Recording Academy is leading by example.
    This year the Academy announced a new partnership with IBM 
that will use generative AI to create customized content before 
and during the 66th GRAMMY Awards this weekend. The content 
will be reviewed, adjusted, and supplemented by the Academy's 
editorial team. Through this partnership, we will be able to 
feature more insights on GRAMMY-nominated artists, drive 
engagement around special moments, and connect millions of 
music fans around the artists they love.
    Importantly, AI will be a tool that our editorial team will 
use to enhance and expand their work, not replace it, and our 
team will be involved in everything that is produced. In 
addition, the AI will be drawing from our own content and our 
own data with our permission and our oversight.
    The Recording Academy is in the business of celebrating 
human excellence and human creativity. That was the biggest 
concern when we crafted our GRAMMY Award policies. We 
understand that AI is here and it is not going anywhere, but 
our award guidelines stay true to our mission to honor the 
people behind the music. Only human creators are eligible to 
win a GRAMMY Award.
    So, as we embrace the huge potential of AI, we are also 
mindful of the risks. More than any other issue involving AI, 
the artists and creators I talk to are concerned that there is 
very little protection for artists who see their own name, or 
likeness, or voice used to create AI-generated materials.
    Artists in every genre have seen their voices mimicked 
using AI without their permission. Iconic artists who are no 
longer with us have also had their voices reproduced without 
the involvement of their families, like you heard today. This 
misuse hurts artists and their fans alike.
    Recently, we saw the extreme dark side of AI fakes as some 
of the most famous and recognizable artists in the world have 
been the target of explicit, AI-generated images put online.
    AI fakes don't just target artists. They impact all of you 
as well. Before New Hampshire's Presidential primary, a 
robocall impersonating the President discouraged people from 
voting. While it is not clear if this fake was actually AI, the 
potential for AI to be used to spread misinformation is 
obvious, and it is terrifying.
    Many issues involving AI are complex, and the path forward 
is uncertain. The problem of AI fakes is clear to everyone. 
Right now there is a patchwork of State laws that address the 
``right of publicity'' for individuals. These laws are 
inconsistent with each other and they are out of date, and they 
do not address the AI problem. Many States don't even have them 
at all. This is a problem that only Congress can address to 
protect all Americans.
    For this reason, the Academy is grateful for the 
introduction of the No AI FRAUD Act, supported by many Members 
of this Committee. The bill establishes in Federal law that an 
individual has a personal property right in the use of their 
image and voice. That is just common sense, and it is long 
overdue. The bill also empowers individuals to enforce this 
right against those who facilitate, create, and spread AI 
frauds without permission.
    Importantly, the bill has provisions that balance these new 
protections with the First Amendment to safeguard speech and 
innovation. Freedom of expression is essential to the music we 
create, but it also must include the ability to protect your 
own individual expression from being misappropriated by others.
    Last year, the Recording Academy joined other organizations 
representing all the creative industries to launch the global 
Human Artistry Campaign. Today, the campaign includes over 170 
organizations in 30 countries, and this morning, the campaign 
published an ad in USA Today featuring the names of hundreds of 
artists and actors asking Congress to support the No AI FRAUD 
Act. On behalf of the Academy and our over 20,000 members, I, 
too, respectfully but strongly, ask for your support.
    Technology has and always will play a part in amplifying 
creativity, but human creativity is the ultimate expression of 
creativity. Creative works shape our identity, our values, and 
our world view. People relate most deeply to works that embody 
the lived experience, perceptions, and attitudes of others.
    Thank you very much.
    [Prepared statement of Mr. Mason follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    
    Mr. Issa. Thank you. Mr. Mohr.

                STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER A. MOHR

    Mr. Mohr. Mr. Chair, Ranking Member Johnson, and Members of 
the Committee, it is a privilege to appear in front of you 
today. My name is Chris Mohr, and I am the President of the 
Software and Information Industry Association, or SIIA. Thank 
you for this opportunity to share our views on identity in the 
age of AI.
    SIIA represents over 350 diverse companies in the business 
of information. Our members range from startup firms to some of 
the largest and most recognizable corporations in the world. 
For over 40 years, we have advocated for the health of the 
information lifecycle, advancing favorable conditions for its 
creation, dissemination, and productive use. Our members create 
educational software and content, e-commerce platforms, legal 
research and financial data bases, and a variety of other 
products that people depend on in wide swaths of their 
commercial and everyday lives. We are the place where 
information and technology meet, and sometimes collide.
    Our members have wholeheartedly embraced the promise of AI 
to revolutionize information management, creation, analysis, 
and dissemination. Collectively they have invested billions in 
its development, acquisition, and deployment, and are 
pioneering the use of AI to address myriad social needs in the 
classroom, in fraud detection, in market data, and money 
laundering investigations, and in locating missing children.
    When it comes to policy, SIIA generally advocates for 
policy solutions that withstand changes in technology. We 
acknowledge, however, that in some cases AI is different, and 
support the adoption of a risk-based framework to regulate 
those technologies. Our members have been leaders in advancing 
AI accountability and governance. The reason is simple. AI that 
generates the most unbiased, accurate, and trustworthy 
information will be based on reliable data.
    Respect for and protection of intellectual property is key 
to our policy mission, and our members rely on the incentives 
that IP law creates. We have been involved in antipiracy work 
for almost four decades. We are members of the Copyright 
Alliance. We believe that the use of AI must comply with 
existing statutory requirements and respect for established 
intellectual property rights, which provide crucial incentives 
to authors, artists, technologists, and scientists to create 
original works.
    The use of copyrighted works without permission to train 
generative artificial intelligence models remains the subject 
of active litigation, and the legality of its use will be 
heavily fact dependent. Our members are confident that the 
courts will sort out the fair uses from the unfair, and at this 
point in time they are the institution best situated to do so 
with respect to the copyright law.
    With that said, we recognize that this is not a copyright 
hearing, and we recognize the noncopyright harms that misuse 
and abuse of AI can cause. We are seeing examples in the media 
of digital replicas used to fool the public or maliciously 
target an individual. When abused, this technology can cause 
severe harm to a person's privacy rights, and we commend the 
Committee for examining potential legal remedies.
    I want to highlight three points.
    First, not all identity-based harms are the same. Many 
identity-based harms are already covered by different doctrines 
created by Federal and State statutes, and these doctrines 
already apply to generative AI uses. For example, the law 
already remedies false celebrity endorsement under the Lanham 
Act.
    Second, it is important to consider the limits of the First 
Amendment. Statutory rights that regulate identity will be 
reviewed by the courts as a form of speech regulation. To 
survive the heightened scrutiny that such a statute would 
receive, it is critical that it both be tailored to remedy a 
specific harm and contain sufficient breathing space for 
expressive works and other kinds of protected speech.
    Third, we recognize the harm that generative AI can create 
for individuals, most notably for the use of sexually explicit 
deep fakes. The ability to quickly create sexually explicit 
deep fakes is new. Congress did pass a statute to address this 
problem as part of the Violence Against Women Act as applied to 
revenge porn, but its application to deep fakes is, at best, 
ambiguous. This is an area where Congress can and should act.
    Thank you for the opportunity to present our views, and I 
look forward to your questions.
    [Prepared statement of Mr. Mohr follows:]

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    Mr. Issa. Thank you. Professor Rothman.

                STATEMENT OF JENNIFER E. ROTHMAN

    Ms. Rothman. Chairman Issa, Ranking Member Johnson, and 
Members of the Subcommittee, I appreciate the opportunity to 
testify today about artificial intelligence and identity 
rights.
    I am Jennifer Rothman. I am a Professor of Law at the 
University of Pennsylvania, and have been researching and 
writing about identity rights and intellectual property for 
almost two decades.
    You asked me to consider the possibility of Federal right 
of publicity as well as two circulated draft bills. I will 
focus on two primary points taken from my more detailed written 
statement.
    First, that although the capabilities of AI are new, the 
problem of using a person's voice, likeness, or performances 
without permission is longstanding. We have many laws already 
on the books that address such unauthorized uses, regardless of 
the technology employed to do so. Accordingly, any Federal 
legislation in this area must improve the current State of 
affairs and not create or exacerbate problems.
    Second, any Federal right to a person's voice or likeness 
must not be transferrable away from that person. Allowing such 
transfers violates our most sacred and fundamental rights and 
thwarts the express goals of legislation addressing AI, many of 
which have been articulated today, which are to protect the 
livelihood of performers, the dignity of ordinary people, and 
the ability to distinguished accurate images and sounds from 
those which are deceptive.
    My first point is that current laws already apply to works 
created by artificial intelligence. From the early 1990s to 
today, every State that has considered the issue has adopted 
some form of right of publicity. None have rejected it. This is 
a law that restricts others from using another person's 
identity without permission, including in the context of 
performances. The concerning examples of AI that have been 
raised in these and prior hearings all violate these existing 
laws. Tom Hanks, Drake, The Weeknd, and the various teenagers 
such as those in New Jersey, whose images have been used in 
pornographic images, each have likely successful lawsuits under 
State publicity laws. Federal copyright law may also be 
violated in these contexts, and Hanks, Drake, and The Weeknd 
could bring successful Federal false endorsement and trademark 
claims.
    In short, there are already robust protections on the book. 
This means that the bar to enacting something new should be 
high, and legislation should not destabilize what is working 
about current laws with hundreds of years of precedence nor 
make things worse for performers, athletes, or ordinary people.
    This leads me to my second point. Any Federal intervention 
in this space must protect self-ownership and ongoing control 
of one's own identity. No one should own another person. 
Unfortunately, each of the circulated drafts to address the 
problems of AI and performance rights essentially do exactly 
this, including the No AI FRAUD Act. They allow another person, 
or most likely a company, to own or control another person's 
voice or likeness forever and in any context. It is essential 
that any right created by Federal legislation that protects a 
person's identity not be transferrable away from that person.
    Imagine a world in which Taylor Swift's first record label 
obtained rights in perpetuity to young Swift's voice and 
likeness. The label could then replicate Swift's voice, over 
and over, in new songs that she never wrote, and have AI 
renditions of her perform and endorse the songs and videos, and 
even have holograms perform them on tour. In fact, under the 
proposal No AI FRAUD Act, the label would be able to sue Swift 
herself for violating her own right of publicity if she used 
her voice and likeness to write and record new songs and 
publicly perform them.
    This is a topsy-turvy world that the two draft bills would 
create. This does not serve the interests of current and future 
recording artists nor the public, more broadly. Allowing 
another person or entity to own a living human being's likeness 
or voice in perpetuity violates our fundamental and 
constitutional right to liberty. We do not allow people to sell 
themselves into slavery or servitude, we do not allow people to 
sell their votes, organs, or their babies, and we should not 
allow people to sell their names, likenesses, or voices.
    Making publicity rights transferrable poses a particular 
risk to student athletes, children, actors, recording artists, 
and models. Such transferability also threatens ordinary people 
who may unwittingly sign over those rights as part of online 
terms of service. Allowing transferability harms not only the 
person who loses control of their own identity, but all of us. 
Owners or licensees of another's identity rights could generate 
performances by that person forever, making them say and do 
things they never did. This is a chilling prospect and poses a 
broad threat to society by undermining trust in authentic 
communication and seeding misinformation.
    Accordingly, any Federal rights to a person's identity must 
not be transferrable, and there must be significant limits on 
licensing. Without such limits, these proposed laws will 
exacerbate rather than combat deception, and will fail to 
protect each of our voices and likenesses.
    In spite of these concerns, there are some opportunities 
with Federal law in this area, and I discuss these in more 
detail in my written submission. I look forward to your 
questions.
    [Prepared statement of Ms. Rothman follows:]

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    Mr. Issa. Thank you, and you have made it perfect for me to 
recognize myself for a round of questioning.
    Professor, under existing law, that very slavery, the 
ability to sign away your rights, as far as you know, is there 
any prevention of Ms. Wilson from potentially signing away both 
her current and future rights, or any other artist, under 
current law?
    Ms. Rothman. So, under Federal law there is no right that 
allows for that transferability. Under State--
    Mr. Issa. No, no. I am saying is there any prohibition on 
her signing a document that would say that she is doing it?
    Ms. Rothman. Well, the State laws, some of them preclude 
some transferability. For example, Illinois prohibits creditors 
from getting control over a person's identity if they go into 
bankruptcy.
    Mr. Issa. Right.
    Ms. Rothman. In California--
    Mr. Issa. Bankruptcy law does not allow you to lose your 
future earnings, is what you are saying, and that is Federal 
too.
    Ms. Rothman. No. I think that one of the things that is 
really important for legislation in this area, Federal 
legislation, is not to allow and erect a Federal law that 
allows that transferability. I think that transferability--
    Mr. Issa. I couldn't agree with you more, but I asked the 
question the way I did for a reason. Ms. Wilson, I want to 
bring it to you. You are now an incredibly accomplished artist. 
You control your destiny perhaps at the highest level of any 
artist because of who you are and where you are. You earned 
that from the bottom.
    Ms. Wilson. For sure.
    Mr. Issa. Tell us, were the pressures when you were first 
trying to get that break, were they such that, in fact, those 
who signed you would, in fact, have asked you to sign away a 
great many things, including what the professor indicated?
    Ms. Wilson. Oh, for sure. I have been in Nashville for 13 
years. I moved from Louisiana. I moved there to go chase a 
crazy dream. Especially when you are just kind of diving into 
it headfirst, you are just trying to figure things out. I am 
not an expert when it comes to this at all, but I do know how 
this stuff has made me feel. It is terrifying, and they are 
taking advantage of trustworthy people, and words are powerful 
to me.
    Mr. Issa. Mr. Mason, would you say that what Ms. Wilson has 
just said, is one of the pressures that, in fact, consistent 
with what the professor rightfully so said, that Congress can 
and should not only not create something that allows 
essentially forward slavery of somebody's likeness being owned 
by somebody else, such that you could literally shut down an 
artist from their future work. In fact, that is one of the 
challenges we have today, because the future of AI says that 
things can be created in the future, and those who own that 
right will be the one being able to create it.
    Mr. Mason. It is definitely a challenge and something that 
needs to be addressed. I will say in this particular bill there 
are certain safeguards, and there is language that says there 
has to be attorneys present and involved. We also believe that 
families should have the freedom to enter into different 
business arrangements. There needs to be a lot more discussion 
around that and partnership with the labels and other people 
that could be entering into those.
    Mr. Issa. Well, I am not going to dwell on it, but I think 
the professor hit the most important one, which is that the 
living artist should never be prevented from future work, and 
we all know that recording contracts have sort of, at times, 
controlled future work and not allowed it. So, that is 
something that I am concerned about.
    I am going to touch quickly on one question because it is 
slightly outside this hearing, but it is important to get in 
the record.
    Ms. Wilson, currently the Copyright Office has said that AI 
per se is not copyrightable, that pure AI isn't. If today you 
lost that distinctive voice, and yet you wanted to remix or 
create new works, but you wanted your voice to be heard, AI 
would allow you to sing, though your voice be lost. Do you 
believe that Congress should look at the ability to copyright a 
work which is original but uses AI? I say that not just for 
you, but for all those who, quite frankly, had a voice when 
they were young, and over the years their range dissipated, and 
they would still like to produce the quality that made them 
famous.
    Ms. Wilson. Man.
    Mr. Issa. I don't ask easy questions.
    Ms. Wilson. No, you don't, but all I can do is speak from 
the heart, and that is really it, because like I said, when it 
comes to all this other stuff I am not an expert in it. I do 
know that I have worked my entire life for this. I wrote my 
first song at nine-years old. I started playing guitar at 11. I 
moved to Nashville when I was 19. I have been there 13 years, 
trying to do this. I take a lot of pride in my work ethic, and 
I have spent years and years and years and blood, sweat, and 
tears to be where I am today. Just having that thought in the 
back of my head of like at any point in time people could put 
words into my mouth or people could take things away from me, 
and I have worked really hard on building this reputation, and 
in a split second it could be gone.
    I want to just see a change because there have been so many 
things, even in the past few months, that I have seen online, 
for me selling weight loss gummies. I have got a lot of little 
kids watching me, a lot of little girls and a lot of little 
boys, and I want to encourage them to feel comfortable in their 
own skin and love themselves. I would never, in a million 
years, ever do anything like that.
    At the end of the day people say, I have got to see it to 
believe it. Well, they are seeing it and they are believing it. 
Folks that I am super close to even believe it at times too, 
and it is really, really scary when it gets to that point.
    Mr. Issa. We look forward to finding a way to protect that.
    Professor, just briefly because my time has expired, the 
answer to that question, currently you can't. Is there a 
pathway that you see that we should produce to facilitate the 
ability of someone to augment their own voice, the living 
artist, or to use their own record of voice and use AI, and 
still enjoy a copyright capability?
    Ms. Rothman. I think that it is difficult in a global sense 
to assess the specifics of whether that would obtain copyright.
    Mr. Issa. Well, I can assure you that if we say it does, it 
does. That is the good news, that the Copyright Office has made 
a decision, and we make law. We don't want to, as you said in 
your opening statement, ``we don't want to a make law unless it 
is well thought out, practical, enforceable, and fair.''
    Ms. Rothman. I think that if the AI is controlled by a 
human being and an artist, it is not very different from some 
of the pitch shifting and technology and mixing that already 
goes into making sort of first-rate recordings, and people even 
do it during live performance. So, I don't think that would be 
prohibitive of receiving copyright protection.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you. I now recognize the Ranking Member, 
Mr. Johnson.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Mason, 
when the fake Drake song was released on streaming in April 
2023, the public quickly discovered that this wasn't the long-
sought-after collaboration between Drake and The Weeknd, but an 
entirely new AI-generated song. I understand that his studio 
was able to file a notice and takedown under the DMCA because a 
small portion of the song was copied from an earlier Drake 
song. If the song had not contained copyrighted material would 
Drake and his representatives had that same recourse?
    Mr. Mason. Currently, no, they would not have. It was taken 
down because there was a sample.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. So, what, if anything, do you 
believe this incident says about the need for legislation?
    Mr. Mason. It has opened the door to what is possible. It 
has shown the power of AI when it comes to voice modeling, when 
it comes to potentially deceiving fans. What we believe is that 
artists, creators, people who make music and make art should 
have the ability to approve or have some oversight into how 
their voice and likeness is being used. There should be a 
crediting process so that consumers can understand what it is 
they are listening to. I want to know, is that the real Drake 
or is that not the real Drake? Artists should also be 
remunerated properly when their voice or likeness is used.
    For us it really comes down to choice. If an artist would 
like to participate in creating music through AI or allow other 
to utilize their voice, we believe there should be a choice, 
and some will want to do that. As Lainey said,

        There will be some that would rather not, but as long as they 
        are credited properly, they have certain approval rights, and 
        there is a way for them to be paid fairly.

We see that as a possibility.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you. Professor Rothman, you 
have testified that any Federal right to a person's voice or 
likeness must not be transferrable away from that person. In 
the context that was just described by Mr. Mason, how would 
that assertion line up with what he just said?
    Ms. Rothman. So, first, I think there would be a claim 
under current law, including under current Federal law if 
someone circulated a song and claimed that Drake and The Weeknd 
recorded it, as they did. That violates the Lanham Act. They 
have trademarks on their names. It also violates Federal false 
endorsement law. So, they would have claims, and those are all 
exempted from Communications Decency Act, Section 230, so it 
wouldn't even go through the DMCA takedown provision, so it 
would be quite straightforward in that regard.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. I am really wanting to know, 
though, about the transferability of a person's voice or 
likeness. Mr. Mason said that, ``the artist should have a 
choice,'' and you are advocating for, I take it, a ban on a 
person being able to transfer their rights to their voice and 
their likeness.
    Ms. Rothman. That is correct. I don't think that should be 
allowed. This doesn't mean that they can't make money from 
licensing their voice or likeness in limited context, but it 
means that we shouldn't allow people to transfer their voice 
and likeness and performances in perpetuity or even in very 
broad context, because this goes against all the concerns we 
have talked about, which is deceptive performances where people 
can't tell whether it is real or not. Even the protections in 
the No AI FRAUD Act that suggest that you need a lawyer, well, 
if you take a young, aspiring artist, they may be able to get a 
lawyer, but they are going to have trouble paying for it. They 
are still going to have the same bargaining power. It is not 
the sort of thing that we allow people to sell, like forever.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Well, younger artists typically 
don't have good legal representation in that first deal that 
gets signed, and that deal could include language that 
transfers to the recording company or the motion picture 
company the right, in perpetuity, for your likeness and your 
voice, that kind of thing, just in that first contract. So, I 
think there is some danger right there. How would legislation 
look that would prescribe the transfer of voice and likeness 
rights?
    Ms. Rothman. Thank you. I have thought a lot about this, 
because I think that is exactly right. The initial recording 
contracts will likely include those provisions. The NCAA has 
tried to include those provisions for student athletes. So, 
this is a real opportunity for Federal legislation to make 
clear, even under States laws, this is not permissible.
    Now, how would this, in terms of--and it could be 
prohibited such that the only person who would have this right 
is the actual identity holder, the person themselves. Now, that 
doesn't mean that you couldn't draft something that provided, 
for example, to record labels, standing to enforce the use of a 
person's voice or likeness in a specific recording that was AI-
generated during the terms of a recording contract with the 
record label. It is very common for people with exclusive 
licenses in a variety of intellectual property contexts to have 
standing to bring legal claims.
    So, I don't think we need to allow wide transferability to 
protect those interests.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you. My time has expired.
    Mr. Issa. I would have given you more time.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. I am trying not to take more time 
like you did.
    Mr. Issa. We now recognize the gentleman from Florida, no. 
one, Mr. Gaetz.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Mohr, does your association of technology 
companies endorse the No AI FRAUD Act?
    Mr. Mohr. We have no position on it, and I wouldn't 
characterize this exclusively an association of technology 
companies.
    Mr. Gaetz. Is your group supportive or not supportive of 
the No FAKES Act?
    Mr. Mohr. We have no position on it.
    Mr. Gaetz. Do you intend to take a position on either of 
those bills?
    Mr. Mohr. We are examining it.
    Mr. Gaetz. So, there seem to be two key features of the No 
AI FRAUD Act. One is the transferability, which we have been 
discussing, and the other is the liability. So, these 
technology platforms that share deep fakes, Mr. Mason, do you 
think they should be liable for the harm that that causes the 
creator?
    Mr. Mason. Definitely a complicated question. I think the 
liability lies across many layers. To me it is people who 
utilize the technology inappropriately, it is people who 
distribute it, and it is also people who host it.
    Mr. Gaetz. Right now they have no liability for that.
    Mr. Mason. I understand that.
    Mr. Gaetz. You have endorsed the bill that would oppose 
that liability. So, you support that, right?
    Mr. Mason. Yes.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Mohr, your association, how do you think 
about liability for the entities that do the harms Mr. Mason 
described?
    Mr. Mohr. I think there are at least two issues in there. 
One is the liability of the person who creates it.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mine is about the publication. My question 
directly relates to the provisions of the bill that create 
liability if you disseminate, produce, and publish these deep 
fakes.
    Mr. Mohr. So, the problem that I think we would be looking 
at as we examine this is that when regulating in this space it 
is very important to focus on the particular harm that Congress 
is looking to prevent. When we talk about rights of identity, 
in general, what it does is it lumps together a bunch of 
different harms. There is the commercial harm--
    Mr. Gaetz. I have very limited time.
    Mr. Mohr. OK.
    Mr. Gaetz. The question is, if someone disseminates deep 
fakes on their technology platform, is it your view that they 
should be liable or that they should not be liable for that?
    Mr. Mohr. I think the answer for now is our position that 
current law is adequate to address it.
    Mr. Gaetz. So, the current law doesn't create that 
liability, Ms. Wilson. So, I hear about your concerns, and if 
these technology companies that disseminate this stuff do it, 
they believe the current law should exist and there should be 
no enhanced liability.
    I look at what happened to Taylor Swift. She is the most 
famous person in the world. So, to me it seems as though she is 
just the first wave in the set, and that coming is a regime in 
which any prominent person could be subject to these deep 
fakes. Technology platforms can then generate revenue off of 
it, and then don't want to be liable for that. Does that strike 
you as fair?
    Ms. Wilson. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Gaetz. Why?
    Ms. Wilson. My heart is like beating out of my chest right 
now even just thinking about it. Just like I said earlier, my 
reputation is everything to me, and--
    Mr. Gaetz. What about speech, right, because I just heard 
Mr. Mohr, in his testimony, say that actually when these 
technologies do like what we saw with Johnny Cash and Barbie 
Girl or perhaps even with Taylor Swift and the deep fake 
explicit videos, that this could be First Amendment protected 
speech.
    Ms. Wilson. Yes.
    Mr. Gaetz. Do you think that your representatives in 
Congress ought to propose First Amendment speech rights on 
robots creating deep fakes and explicit videos?
    Ms. Wilson. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Gaetz. Robots should not be subject to free speech. I 
can't even believe I have to say that out loud.
    Mr. Mason, we have also talked about this transferability 
concept, and I want to push back a little bit on what thought I 
heard Professor Rothman say. Why shouldn't a prominent person, 
or any person, have the right to sell their name, image, 
likeness? I am a prominent person. If tomorrow I wanted to sell 
my voice to a robot and let that robot say whatever in the 
world it wanted to say, and I wanted to take the money from 
that sale and go buy a sailboat and never turn on the internet, 
why should I not have the right to do that?
    Mr. Mason. I believe you should.
    Mr. Gaetz. Right. The bill you have sported creates this 
concept of ownership over your name, your image, your likeness, 
and your voice. Maybe I am just a country lawyer from North 
Florida, but the only way you own something is if you have the 
ability to enjoy the exclusive use of it and if you have the 
right to sell it. So, if you can't sell your own voice, do you 
even really own it, and if you can't control the exclusive use 
of it, I don't know if you really own it.
    So, I think this legislation is a good first step, and I 
think that the industry associations opposing it want to be 
able to avoid the liability, to be able to use the tech, and to 
be able to undermine the creative infrastructure that is 
allowed our country to flourish.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Issa. That wasn't a question at the end, was there?
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Gaetz. No. I asked my questions. I got the true 
answers.
    Mr. Issa. You got a good answer. Mr. Lieu.
    Mr. Lieu. Thank you, Chair Issa and Ranking Member Johnson, 
for holding this field hearing, and thank you to the panelists 
who are here today, Ms. Wilson, Mr. Mason, Mr. Mohr, and Ms. 
Rothman, for your testimony.
    As a recovering computer science major I believe AI has 
benefited society and will continue to benefit society. It can 
also be misused and cause harm, and I think what we are trying 
to figure out is how do we allow AI to innovate but to mitigate 
the harms.
    Mr. Mason, I am going to ask you some questions because I 
want to know what the Recording Academy's position is on some 
of these issues. As you know, these large language generative 
AI models train themselves by scraping the entire internet to 
get data. Some of that includes copyrighted works of artists, 
such as, for example, Taylor Swift. Do you believe artists such 
as Taylor Swift should be compensated by these software 
companies when they use her material to train themselves?
    Mr. Mason. Yes, we believe that people that have spent 
their whole lives, like Lainey, to create art that is being 
used and monetized should be compensated when it is being used, 
yes.
    Mr. Lieu. Let's say a person who was a fan of Taylor Swift 
uses one of these models and generates lyrics in the style of 
Taylor Swift for his or her own personal enjoyment. Do you 
think that person has to pay anything to Taylor Swift, and do 
you think the software that generated that has to pay anything 
to Taylor Swift?
    Mr. Mason. I think it would come down to use, what they 
used it for. For their personal enjoyment might be something to 
discuss, but as soon as they start monetizing that or trying to 
commercialize it, that is a different question and they should 
be paid.
    Mr. Lieu. I gather it is the same answer if the person was 
able to use an AI app that takes the lyrics in the style of 
Taylor Swift and then matches it up to a video that looks like 
Taylor Swift, and audio that sounds like her. Same answer, 
right? It depends on what they used that for. If it is for 
their own personal enjoying maybe it is fair use, but if they 
try to sell it, it wouldn't be, right?
    Mr. Mason. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Lieu. OK. So Mr. Mohr, I am going to ask you sort of 
the same questions. Do you believe AI models that scrape 
copyrighted material to train themselves need to pay the people 
who own this copyrighted material?
    Mr. Mohr. Our position is that those are fact-dependent 
inquiries that are going to be handled by fair use law. We 
don't take a position on either side.
    Mr. Lieu. If a person uses one of these software tools to 
generate content for their own enjoyment, do you have a 
position on whether that software tool or that person needs to 
pay anything to the copyright holder?
    Mr. Mohr. So in dividing that, those are two very different 
questions. One question involves the use of the tool itself and 
the output. So, in that particular instance, I think that is 
another issue that going to be litigated, because in that 
context it is a lot like a Betamax. In other words, this is a 
technology that is capable of a lot of substantially 
noninfringing uses. So, I am not sure that liability would 
attach to the model itself. Again, that is something the courts 
are going to have to work out.
    With respect to the output, the question there becomes 
whether or not the output is substantially similar, and at that 
point once the user makes that product more widely available 
there is potential exposure to copyright liability as well as 
to Lanham Act liability, for example, if they were passing it 
off as an original work.
    Mr. Lieu. OK. What if the software company marketed their 
software saying, hey, use us and we can generate for you lyrics 
in the style of Taylor Swift and make audio and video in the 
style of Taylor Swift. Do you think they would be liable if 
they did that?
    Mr. Mohr. Under existing law right now?
    Mr. Lieu. Yes.
    Mr. Mohr. I think you would have questions about 
endorsement styles. They are not protected by copyright, so 
there wouldn't be copyright liability for that. There could be, 
again, false endorsement liability.
    Mr. Lieu. Your association basically right now is just 
waiting for the courts to decide these issues. You don't really 
have a position on any number of those.
    Mr. Mohr. On the copyright issues, that is correct. We do 
not have a position.
    Mr. Lieu. OK. Thank you. Ms. Rothman, I am just trying to 
understand your testimony, and you can answer in my time. Are 
you saying that an artist cannot contract to sell, for example, 
their ability to have a recording that is going to be used in, 
let's say, a future movie, a song in a future movie? I am just 
trying to understand what it means that you cannot transfer 
this right. Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying.
    Ms. Rothman. Yes, that example is a license. So, you are 
giving permission, you are authorizing the use in a specific 
context. That is in keeping with addressing all the concerns 
that are raised here. The person has approved a specific use, 
they have given permission. Then the movie studio, the record 
label who has permission for that recording would be able to 
enforce any uses if some unauthorized person subsequently used 
that recording or capturing of the voice, even if it was 
manipulated by AI in the context of the sound recording or the 
movie.
    So, that is completely legitimate, would allow someone to 
get income, but it wouldn't take away from that person those 
rights. I don't think people are aware of how many contracts 
they sign actually give rights to their voice, likeness, and 
name to others. It is a big difference whether the Federal 
Government passes a law that enables that versus some States 
suggesting you can do that and then someone coming in and 
saying that violates the U.S. Constitution.
    Mr. Lieu. I got you. You are supporting licensing versus 
transferring the right itself.
    Ms. Rothman. As long as the licensing is limited enough 
that it doesn't essentially become a transfer. So, it needs to 
be specific enough so that the authorizing party, the identity 
holder, knows what they have agreed to and the public can rely 
on that person's endorsement of the performance that they are 
going to see.
    Mr. Lieu. Thank you.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you. We now go to the gentleman from 
Wisconsin, Mr. Fitzgerald.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you all for being here today.
    Ms. Rothman, you discussed in earlier hearings the need to 
balance publicity laws with Federal law, in October 2023. Those 
were comments about the Copyright Office. Can you kind of 
expand on those comments? This is not the first time that 
technology has clashed with artistry, with creativeness. We 
heard a lot about it in Nashville last summer when we were 
there. The quote, ``style'' of an artist has a lot to do with 
it.
    Can you comment on that?
    Ms. Rothman. Yes. So, I didn't testify in a hearing then, 
but you are right, I submitted comments to the Copyright Office 
when they requested some guidance on right of publicity, 
identity rights, and copyright law.
    So, there are a few different issues. One, as you 
mentioned, the style that has come up here before, and we tend 
to say people can sing in a style like someone else, and you 
might hear a new vocalist and think, oh wow, that reminds me of 
this other person's voice. We allow that, if they are paying 
homage. The Copyright Act allows cover songs to be made or 
soundalike recordings. It is expressly allowed under the 
Federal copyright law.
    So, when people sue under State publicity laws then 
sometimes there is a defense called a copyright preemption 
defense, which says actually Federal law takes precedence here 
and the Copyright Act expressly allows these copyrighted uses. 
There are mixed answers to that. Sometimes it preempts if it 
conflicts with express parts of copyright law. Sometimes it 
doesn't.
    Often State publicity laws will survive a defense that 
someone is using authorized copyrighted works when the person's 
name, likeness, voice, performance is reused in a different 
context, say in a commercial or marketing or in an action 
figure maybe that a studio didn't get permission for, in one 
instance robots in a bar. So, in those instances, courts have 
been rejecting copyright, what is called a copyright preemption 
defense, and saying State publicity laws protect this in spite 
of Federal copyright law.
    In other instances, copyright law will allow such uses. So, 
there have been some instances that the record labels have 
litigated, for example, where someone, a recording artist, will 
record a song and then someone will want to sample it in future 
work. Sometimes that is licensed, and some recording artists 
have sued, and said, ``hey, I didn't agree to this use of my 
song in this new song,'' and the record labels have said, 
``actually, we have the copyright and we authorized it,'' and 
courts have generally held that in those instances Federal 
copyright law preempts a State publicity claim because it is 
just a record label that owns a copyright and reusing the 
copyrighted work.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Very good. Thank you. So, like I said, it 
is not the first time these technologies clashed. Cher had a 
huge hit in the 1990's with autotune. Hank Williams and Hank 
Williams, Jr., collaborated, even though Hank Williams, Jr., 
had passed away many years ago, to sing a duet. The latest 
example is the Beatles' final release here as the use 
technology.
    So, Ms. Wilson, I was going to ask you, can I call you 
Lainey?
    Ms. Wilson. You can call me whatever you want.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Ms. Wilson sounds weird when I call you 
that.
    Ms. Wilson. You can call me Lainey.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. So, Lainey, have you been in a situation 
where you are recording either with your solo stuff or with 
other artists, and have you experienced this in the recording 
studio where they have used these technologies or when they 
play back your own songs to you? Is there a way that they 
enhance or can work with you on those things?
    Ms. Wilson. I have actually been in a couple of writing 
sessions where they were like, hey, check this out, and they 
showed me exactly like what they could do to pitch me a song 
that sounds just like me.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. It sounds like you.
    Ms. Wilson. It is just wild. So, yes, I have definitely 
seen it firsthand like that. Also, even just with ads that I 
have seen on Facebook and everywhere else, it is literally my 
voice, selling pots and pans, and weight loss gummies. Yes, and 
as I said earlier, ``it is really scary when the people that 
are really close to you, even some of your family members, 
believe it.''
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Yes. Have you ever used autotune in a 
recording session?
    Ms. Wilson. I have used autotune.
    Mr. Mason. She doesn't need autotune. Come on.
    Ms. Wilson. I don't need much of it.
    [Laughter.]
    Ms. Wilson. It depends on what day it is. It depends on 
what day, whether I need it or not.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Stop talking or you will need an attorney 
after this.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you very much. I yield back.
    Mr. Issa. The gentleman yields back. We now go to yet 
another gentleman from California and a classmate of mine from 
long ago, and someone who has been working on transparency in 
this area, Mr. Schiff.
    Mr. Schiff. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for holding 
this hearing. Thank you all for coming. I have the good fortune 
to represent Hollywood, Burbank, and surrounding communities, 
and a tremendous number of people in the creative industries. I 
always tell my colleagues in Congress it is good for us to 
spend some time with celebrities, because we get an 
understanding of what celebrity is, and it is not us. When 
people are trampling you to get the autograph of some actor in 
a B-level movie or a TV commercial you get a sense of where you 
are in the pecking order.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Schiff. One thing we do share in common with artists is 
none of us want to see our voice, our likeness used in a 
deceptive way. None of us want to see that being used to say 
things we never said, take positions we never held. Frankly, it 
is terrifying because like you in the creative industries, our 
reputation really matters.
    So, Ms. Wilson, or Lainey, I wanted to ask you, what is it 
like to hear some purported recording of yourself, that you 
never made? What would it be like for an artist to hear a song 
they didn't write, with a message they don't support, with a 
quality that is not up to their own standard, after you have 
spent your whole life trying to create your brand?
    Ms. Wilson. I mean, it is detrimental. It is really, really 
difficult. I try to make sure that everything I say on stage, 
every interview that I have is thought out. That it is going to 
stay around forever. I know people can pull it back up. There 
have been times where I have heard something and it sounded so 
much like me I was like, did I say that? It is just really, 
really scary to think that we are in a time that these kinds of 
things can happen, and I just think there needs to be something 
done about it.
    Mr. Schiff. Let me ask our other witnesses that exact 
point--what should be done about it? Mr. Mohr, the companies 
you represent, some of them are the behemoths in the technology 
industry. They have a role and a responsibility to take down 
content that is inauthentic, take down deep fakes. What are 
your companies doing to make sure that artists don't go through 
what Ms. Wilson earlier described as the gut punch of seeing 
their likeness, their voice, their image used in deceptive 
ways? I would like to ask Mr. Mason and Ms. Rothman if they 
could comment also on both what Mr. Mohr says they are doing, 
but also what you think they should be doing that they are not.
    Mr. Mohr. So, I think certainly with respect to copyright 
infringement, for example, many of our platform members have 
robust schemes to take down material that infringes on those 
works, and they use technological means, which I am sure many 
of my co-panelists are familiar with, to take them down. That 
is one part. Another thing they do is they have terms of 
service against particular kinds of content, that they do try 
to enforce, and to get those things down.
    As you know and as you probably have seen, the practice of 
content moderation is a really complicated one and raises a 
bunch of issues. The Supreme Court is considering those now, 
and it considered them last year in the application of Section 
230 in a bunch of different cases.
    Mr. Schiff. Mr. Mohr, let me turn to Mr. Mason on that 
point, the takedown. What is the experience of your members 
when they see their voice, their likeness being misused? Does 
the takedown system work? Do they actually take it down? How 
quickly do they take it down? How many million views, listens 
do they get before they are taken down? Is the system working? 
Is it broken?
    Mr. Mason. In certain occasions it does work. It is very 
difficult. A lot of people, I have heard it referred to as a 
game of Whack-a-Mole. You take something down here, it pops up 
over there. You try and take that down, it takes too long, it 
is too difficult. It is cumbersome for independent artists who 
do not have the support of major labels, and sometimes they 
don't have the infrastructure or the staffing that it takes to 
do all those takedowns. Even some of the larger labels are 
struggling to chase their own copyright protection.
    Mr. Schiff. If I could ask you, Ms. Rothman, if the 
companies claim, if the platforms claim they don't have the 
technological means to take them down quicker, is that true, or 
is this sort of a willful design not to develop the 
technologies that really could address this?
    Ms. Rothman. I think one of the problems--and I agree with 
Mr. Mason--it is a game of Whack-a-Mole. So, whatever 
legislation is passed we are going to have the same problem, 
because there already are laws that address this. One of the 
problems is the CDA 230, which has limited interest in 
technological innovation. So, I don't want to comment on what 
the companies can or cannot do technologically, but they 
probably could do more than they currently are.
    A firsthand experience, this is not just about celebrities. 
I have been impersonated online. When I said I am being 
impersonated, take it down, nothing happened. When I said 
someone is using my copyrighted image, it came down 
immediately.
    So there is a disconnect, and as Mr. Mason said, their 
artists have more power than the average person. Regular 
teenagers, grownups, everyone, are having their images, 
including in sexual poses, being circulated, and it is very 
difficult to get them down because the platforms use Section 
230, and as I mentioned in my submission, there is a circuit 
split on whether State right of publicity claims are exempted 
from the 230 immunity from liability or included within it. 
That has allowed some defenses in otherwise winning cases, and 
the platforms need to take some responsibility for taking down 
this material if we are going to have any effort, under any 
laws, whether you pass new ones or just try to enforce the ones 
on the books.
    Mr. Schiff. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you. Staying on that roll of California 
Members, Mr. Kiley.
    Mr. Kiley. Good morning. Professor Rothman, I found your 
testimony very interesting. You testified that we do not allow 
people to sell themselves into slavery or servitude. We do not 
allow people to sell their votes or their organs or their 
babies. For that same reason you said we should not allow 
people to sell their names, likeness, or voices.
    Now, I want to kind of interrogate that claim, not because 
I disagree with it--I think I actually agree with you on the 
question of transferability. I am wondering if there might be 
another dimension to the harm that you have identified, in that 
I think that the reason that we don't allow people to sell 
their organs, children, or themselves is not just because of 
the potential for exploitation that is inherent in those 
transactions, but because it degrades the very idea of 
personhood. It blurs the line between a person and a product. 
It commodifies humanity.
    So, I am wondering, do you think that is an element of the 
harm you see in this transferability of name, image, and 
likeness?
    Ms. Rothman. Absolutely. I have written an entire article 
where I, in part, also speak to that concern, that it does 
degrade personhood, it degrades us as a society, and it does 
commodify people in concerning ways. There are lots of ways we 
can empower people to control their voices and likenesses, but 
allowing them to be transferrable to others is not one of them. 
So, I 100 percent agree that this is also part of it.
    Mr. Kiley. So, I guess then my followup question would be, 
could this harm then also exist even if the right is not 
transferred, even if the artist himself is using it. So, for 
example, you mentioned, if Taylor Swift had sold control over 
her identity at a young age that would be very bad if someone 
was out just using that forever and she lost control of it. 
Let's say that Taylor Swift retained control of this and 
decided to create a very realistic animatronic version of 
herself to, let's say, perform in Tokyo so the real Taylor 
doesn't risk missing the Super Bowl.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Kiley. Do you think the fans in Tokyo might feel a 
little ripped off, that even if this algorithmic approximation 
was indistinguishable from the real Taylor, that maybe 
something was lost in their experience?
    Ms. Rothman. Yes, so I just want to be clear that I am not 
saying people shouldn't be able to make money, but I do think 
that the fans in Tokyo might have some consumer protection 
claims, if they thought they were getting the real Taylor Swift 
and then they got the hologram. On the other hand, if Taylor 
Swift--and I don't think she would want to do this. I don't 
think it is great for her brand--but, if she wanted to have 
holograms go on tour, as long as that was disclosed she could 
be able to do that.
    My concern is that when an artist like her, or anyone else, 
can't actually approve that any longer and so some third party 
is doing it, and when our concerns are also about just each of 
you being reanimated saying words you didn't do, the prospect 
is quite chilling. You can imagine some of your, I am sure, 
student athletes, if you had signed away early on, or your 
parents had while you were children, because parents would have 
these rights, signed away your rights, then someone would be 
free to do that and people wouldn't know.
    So, I think disclosure is really important, and ongoing 
control by the underlying person is essential.
    Mr. Kiley. Thank you. Yes, these questions that we are 
dealing with today are, of course, very important in their own 
right, given the importance of this industry, but it also sort 
of offers a window into some more fundamental questions, given 
how uniquely bound up in a person's individuality the arts and 
entertainment and music are.
    So, I think it is important that we start kind of grappling 
with those fundamental questions of how do we have a stable 
understanding of personhood, in the law and just in our terms 
of our general value, in a world in which what have always been 
sort of uniquely human virtues are no longer the exclusive 
province of humanity.
    You made a comment near the end of your testimony that I 
think has a lot of wisdom. You said, ``AI technology will 
continue to develop, and we should not lock in approaches that 
may swiftly become outdated.''
    I am pretty skeptical of our ability as policymakers to 
legislate specific solutions to specific problems that we are 
seeing with the State of the technology right now. I think even 
the high-level engineers at OpenAI can't tell you what this 
technology is going to look like a year from now. Perhaps what 
we can do is look to existing laws around the right of 
publicity, trademark, copyright, and understand their purpose, 
that it is not just to create the right economic incentives but 
it so to advance and value these uniquely human virtues.
    So, if we can kind of have that conversation then maybe we 
can try to sort of anchor our approach to these questions in 
something that will kind of at least provide us some stable 
point of reference against these sort of unpredictable advances 
and risks that we are going to see coming in the future.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Chair, for holding this hearing, 
and I yield back.
    Mr. Issa. I thank the gentleman. We now recognize the 
gentlelady from Pennsylvania for her five minutes.
    Ms. Dean. Well thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the 
Ranking Member and you both for convening this field hearing in 
this terrific, exciting, and creative space. I am Madeleine 
Dean, and I am happy to be one of the co-authors of the No AI 
FAKES, which I introduced alongside Ms. Salazar, who could not 
be here today.
    I want to tell you that I come at it from a number of 
perspectives, sure, as a legislator, but as a mom, as a 
grandmom, concerned with protecting children, concerned with 
protecting women from the abuses of deep fakes, children from 
the abuses of deep fakes. I also come at it as an author 
myself. One of my sons and I published a book telling a story 
about him, and my eldest son is a screenwriter and published 
author as well.
    So, I am looking at it, how do we balance the protections 
for creativity and one's likeness, to give a property right for 
voice and likeness, protect that, but also make sure that we 
also balance the equities and do it ethically.
    I was thinking and taking a look at some of the growing 
pains that we are going through: Unchecked photorealistic deep 
fakes risk public deception, as we have talked about; eroding 
people's faith in real evidence, facts and reporting, 
critically important in this day and age; the very graphic and 
sexually exploitive deep fakes, encompassing everything from 
revenge porn to child porno-
graphy, and we know a great percentage of these deep fakes tap 
into that gross and dark vein; and most pertinent today, maybe, 
the possibility inability of human creators to make a living.
    To your point, Ms. Wilson, about you have honed your craft. 
You have spent a lot of time. You are deeply invested in it. 
What you love about it is the ability to tell a story that says 
something about you, that reveals your humanity. That is why we 
have to protect against AI-generated composition that steals 
our humanity. That is something I care an awful lot about.
    We were talking about the Taylor Swift. From the reading I 
saw, just one of these images was viewed 47 million times 
before it was removed. We can't even quantify the harm that 
something like that has.
    When we introduced this bill it was not an attempt, in any 
way, to chill parody and satire. I love parody and satire. That 
is creation. That is revealing of our humanity. I don't want 
lawmakers to turn a blind eye, to say that this is just too 
complicated, and we are worried about transferability, we are 
worried about other things. I want to have conversations on how 
do we protect First Amendment rights, how do we protect 
artists, and how do we protect the public, frankly.
    Ms. Wilson, you were talking with Mr. Schiff about when you 
suffered deep fakes. When did you first learn of it? What did 
it feel like? I am very touched by your point that even those 
who know you best were confused.
    Ms. Wilson. Yes. It was this past summer. I think I might 
have been scrolling on Facebook, catching up with my folks back 
at home, and I see this ad that said, ``I had lost 70 pounds 
from these weight loss gummies.'' First, it really hurt my 
feelings, if I am being completely honest, because I did lose a 
little bit of weight, and it is probably because I played 180-
something shows last year. It had nothing to do with the 
gummies.
    Ms. Dean. Not something you would recommend as a weight 
loss program.
    Ms. Wilson. Yes, yes. I kept having people like send it to 
me, and they are like, hey, you have got to figure out how to 
get this down. I don't know what this is. We would get it down 
and then another one would pop up, and then we would get it 
down. It was just like we just could not keep up with it to the 
point to where I finally just kind of had to swallow that pill. 
That is a terrible feeling because I could not control it. I 
wanted to tell these little kids, hey, this is not real. I was 
having to tell people even in my crew. They were like, hey, I 
want to lose a little bit of weight. Tell me about this gummy 
stuff.
    Ms. Dean. Oh no. I used to teach writing at a university, 
and the origin of the word ``plagiarist''--plagiariste in 
French--is ``kidnapper.'' So, in some ways some part of you was 
kidnapped.
    Ms. Wilson. Absolutely.
    Ms. Dean. Mr. Mason, what are your hopes for the future of 
generative AI? What are your fears?
    Mr. Mason. My hopes are that we can use it as a tool to 
amplify human creativity. My hopes around AI is that we can 
find some guidelines around it to allow creators who are always 
early adopters of technology to use it to benefit them and to 
bring more greater creativity, more works of art to the fans 
and to the world.
    My fear is that it gets away from us, and we don't have any 
guardrails, and that we are relying on sometimes hundreds-of-
years-old laws to protect us. Sometimes we are relying on laws 
that are in certain States but not holistic in a way that could 
protect us. My fears are that artists' careers will be damaged. 
My fears are that consumers will be misled, and in Ms. Wilson's 
case, damaged artists to the point where they are upset. Their 
brand has been affected. My fear is that we, as consumers and 
as people who love music, get further away from the shared 
human experience that happens when we listen to music and when 
we create music and when music pulls us together.
    Ms. Dean. Well, I share all of that, and I think the panel 
does. We are interesting in finding out the right path forward. 
What are the right guardrails that protect the balance of 
interest.
    I yield back, but before I do that, Mr. Chair, I seek 
unanimous consent to introduce for the record two articles.
    First, is ``Taylor Swift and No AI FRAUD Act: How Congress 
Plans to Fight Back Against AI deep fakes.''
    Second, just coming out today, I believe, ``Nikki Minaj, 
Cardi B, and More Support No AI FRAUD Bill in Congress,'' 
published on Billboard. To your very point, and the image you 
used of the Johnny Cash fake, this lists more than 300 artists, 
including the estate of Johnny Cash and others, who support the 
bill.
    Mr. Issa. Without objection, so ordered.
    Even though this is the Judiciary Committee, this will be 
heard and seen and talked about by all these Members with other 
Committees. So, I might note that the Federal Trade Commission 
is supposed to protect many of these things, and other 
agencies. So, even though we are looking at new legislation, we 
also are here to hear you out so that, in fact, we can begin 
pushing on the Executive Branch to assert powers they have, 
which, for example, somebody selling gummies and implying 
that--the fact is that it is a deceptive practice, and 
hopefully in the days and weeks to come we will see enforcement 
that might save you the, I am tired of Whack-a-Mole, even 
though it was important for you to do.
    With that we got to the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Moran.
    Mr. Moran. Thank you, Mr. Issa. Ms. Wilson, I see you have 
your hand up, so I am just going to ask you why you have your 
hand up.
    Ms. Wilson. Because they tapped me on the back and they 
said it is time for me to go to MusiCares rehearsal, right 
across the street. I just want to say thank you all so much for 
you all's time. This was awesome to be a part of. Thank you so 
much. I am going to go to rehearsal.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Moran. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to each one 
of the witnesses for your time and your testimony today. I know 
it is very valuable. Proudly, I am one of the five original 
sponsors of the No AI FRAUD Act, along with Ms. Dean, and I am 
hopeful that exposure from this hearing, in particular, will 
help move this bill through Committee.
    I also recognize that these hearings are very important to 
hear constructive feedback, to hear criticisms, to hear 
pushback, because we should never enter into new Federal 
legislation lightly. In my opinion, I think we need to take it 
in a prudent fashion, and we need to consider all the voices 
that are here today, and we need to fine-tune what we are 
trying to propose so that ultimately, if we pass something, 
which I hope we do, it will be beneficial to all and it will be 
the appropriate language. We don't want anything under-
inclusive, and we certainly don't want anything overly broad at 
all.
    So, with that I specifically want to ask Ms. Rothman a 
bunch of questions today because you have provided a lot of 
pushback, but Ms. Rothman, a lot of it has been very 
thoughtful, and I appreciate that.
    Let me just start and make sure we start from the same 
foundation on a few things. First, do you agree that 
individuals should have a property right in their voice and 
likeness?
    Ms. Rothman. Well, I am supportive of it being a property 
right as long as it is not transferrable away, and sometimes 
people think of property as being sort of a simplistic thing 
that is automatically transferrable, and it need not be. That 
is another reason why I gave some examples of things we don't 
allow you to transfer, even if we understand them to be 
property.
    So, I think it is appropriate to understand people as being 
able to own themselves. You can style it as a property right. 
Some States style State publicity laws as purely personal and 
say it is not property. There is a conflict in the law about 
that terminology, which is why I pause.
    If you are asking my personal opinion, I am fine with it 
being classified as property as long as it is not transferrable 
away.
    Mr. Moran. Right. I know transferability is your big issue. 
There are differences in State law, State to State, that deals 
with this right to publicity a little bit differently. So, do 
you agree that there is room at the Federal level for us to try 
to bring harmony to this issue?
    Ms. Rothman. Yes, I do think it is an opportunity. It is a 
very challenging task just because of the length of time these 
publicity laws have existed. To the extent that they originated 
in the late 1800s, early 1900s, as part of the right of privacy 
that became the privacy rights that we more broadly understand, 
including constitutional privacy rights, those are actually the 
same across all the States.
    Mr. Moran. I am going to have to just stop you because I 
have got a lot to ask. So, hold on.
    You mentioned in your testimony, your written testimony, 
you said, ``Absent jurisdictional hurdles, Tom Hanks, Drake, 
The Weeknd, each have straightforward lawsuits under State 
rights of publicity.'' So, give us examples of those 
jurisdictional hurdles that you are referring to there.
    Ms. Rothman. Oh, so in the footnote of my written statement 
I go into it. The only major jurisdictional hurdle is my 
understanding that Drake is Canadian. So, some State laws limit 
rights to those who are domiciled in the State, and since he is 
not a member of any State, that may be--
    Mr. Moran. Right. So, we have some international issues. We 
have jurisdictional issues. We have State-to-State difference 
on how it is going to be enforced. In certain circumstances, an 
artist would have to go State by State by State, effectively to 
enforce their rights. Isn't that true?
    Ms. Rothman. So, Drake would likely have a Federal claim 
already for trademark violation and unfair competition plus, as 
Chair Issa mentioned the FTC.
    Mr. Moran. In other instances, they would have to go State 
by State by State, and they would have different remedies, and 
they would have to go to different courts, they would have 
different venues that they would have to pursue to have their 
rights protected. Correct?
    Ms. Rothman. I don't think that is true. That is not how 
litigation currently works. Ms. Wilson departed, but she may 
need new legal counsel. There are a lot of lawsuits she could 
be bringing and that she would be winning. We read all the time 
about celebrities whose images and names are used for false 
endorsement. We could go back again to the early 1900s. These 
are winning cases. People win them. They can publicize that 
they win them, and there are big penalties. If you win in 
California, you get your damages. You don't have to then 
litigate in all the other States.
    Mr. Moran. Yes, but you also mentioned in your written 
testimony that case law does not provide a stable or 
predictable roadmap for Congress to employ at the Federal 
level. If it is not a stable or predictable roadmap for us at 
this point, State by State, then we need to create some kind of 
Federal roadmap, in my opinion, to protect folks.
    Do you agree with the concept that artists have the right 
to all three--credit, consent, and compensation--when their 
voice and their likeness is used for commercial purposes, or 
otherwise?
    Ms. Rothman. Yes, so the quote, I think, was taken with 
regard to copyright preemption specifically rather than the 
prima facie laws. You said that very quickly about credit, 
compensation, and consent, before someone's name, voice, and 
likeness or performances are used. Absolutely, people should be 
consenting for those. Whether they want compensation or not may 
depend on context, and credit, as people in this room probably 
know, is something that is sometimes negotiated with a lot of 
vigor, particularly in movie and TV credits.
    Mr. Moran. I know I am out of time. Some of my time, by the 
way, was taken for the exit.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Moran. I will say that I have not mentioned Travis 
Kelce's girlfriend once during this testimony.
    I want to encourage this. I want to encourage the continued 
dialog, and if there are additional things that we need to look 
at sharpen up the No AI FRAUD Act, happy to do that. I think it 
is incredibly important for us to protect human creativity, 
both for the individual and moving forward. I do agree with Mr. 
Gaetz and a number of other people on the panel that have said, 
look, there is a liberty in the right to contract out that, and 
if we need to somehow make sure that this protects their 
personhood going forward, we can find a way to shape that. We 
certainly have the right to say, hey, it is my name and 
likeness. Why can't I contract out or sign out the rights to 
that so that I can make money now, or my family can make money 
in the future. I would like to work with you on that.
    I would yield back my time. Thank you.
    Mr. Issa. What time?
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Issa. We now go to the gentlelady from Missouri, Ms. 
Bush.
    Ms. Bush. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Ranking 
Member, for holding this hearing, and thank you to all our 
witnesses for being here today.
    I always start my hearings by saying ``St. Louis and I,'' 
and I say that because I am all about representation. I stand 
here in solidarity with all the artists, the creators, and the 
actors whose rights and livelihoods are at risk because of 
artificial intelligence, and generative AI, in particular. A 
shout-out to all the St. Louis musicians and artists and their 
fans. I have got to say that.
    Like any technology, generative AI is not only good and it 
is not only bad, as we have heard here today. Its effects on 
our society depend on how technology is developed, how it is 
used, and how it is regulated. Many artist use it as part of 
their creative process, as we know, from the post-recording 
production and mastering of audio tracks to special effects in 
movie, to the creation of visual content, and so much more.
    We have also seen the horrific stories, which we have heard 
about and talked about much today, like the deep fake porno-
graphy. We have seen the effect of endorsements of products, 
which we heard, and I am sorry for what Ms. Wilson is going 
through. We have seen the artificially generated audio tracks, 
like the one that has been spoken about over and over today, 
like the collaboration between Drake and The Weeknd. The 
potential for the confusion, the manipulation, the 
appropriation, and exploitation is huge.
    Beyond that, though, I want to add something that we 
haven't talked about yet. We must address racial bias in AI 
technology. If I asked a certain generative AI technology to 
create a picture of Black woman, the image it creates will not 
look like me. The facial features and hair may be distorted. 
There is a lot of other evidence of this bias. For example, 
Google disabled its AI program's ability to let people search 
for gorillas and monkeys in the photo's app because pictures of 
Black people would come up.
    These issues aren't limited to the creative industry. We 
see it in healthcare. We see it in employment. We see it in the 
criminal legal system and other areas of daily life. We also 
see evidence of other types of bias and discrimination, 
including based on sex and disability.
    The risks to Black artists, in particular, must be 
considered in light of our country's history. During the 20th 
century--crazy to say that, but for decades, during the 20th 
century, Black musicians, who pioneered new styles of music 
like the blues, were exploited by record companies and 
promoters who took advantage of intellectual property law. When 
machine learning technology was developed in the 1960s, its 
inventors did not meaningfully account for race or sex or 
disability or other parts of human identity.
    Many of today's laws and algorithms are based on earlier 
version, so when laws and technology do not treat Black and 
Brown people as fully human, is it surprising that the end 
products don't either? Is it surprising that Black and Brown 
artists face even greater risks of their rights being violated? 
I know that these are issues that artists in my hometown of St. 
Louis and all around the country are concerned about.
    So, as Congress considers how to regulate artificial 
intelligence, we must address all of these issues and protect 
all relevant rights. Yes, we should work together to ensure 
people's voice, their image, and their likeness are protected. 
We should also work together to address the bias built into 
these systems. We should make sure that AI cannot be used to 
discriminate against people, and that AI companies, in 
particular, are required to be transparent, and that we don't 
simply trust companies whose primary goal is to profit. We 
shouldn't just trust them to self-regulate and do right by our 
artists, creators, actors, and consumers, because consumers 
matter as well.
    So, Mr. Mason, as the Recording Academy's first Black CEO, 
can you share your thoughts on the importance of racial equity 
as a factor for Congress to consider as we debate whether to 
establish a Federal right of publicity?
    Mr. Mason. Thank you, Ms. Bush. You touched on so many 
really, really important points, I would just simply be 
repeating what you just said. There is an inherent racial bias 
in AI. We know that. We have discovered that. It will affect 
Black and Brown artists disproportionately when it comes to 
music and art exploitation. So, I thank you for what you said. 
It upsets me and it concerns us, absolutely.
    With that, and I hate to interrupt the flow of the session, 
but being that it is GRAMMY Week and we have ten more events 
coming up in the next couple of days, I have please 
respectfully excuse myself, if I may.
    Mr. Issa. Mr. Mason, if Mr. Ivey has one minute or less of 
questions, would you allow him to ask them?
    Mr. Mason. Of course. Please. I am sorry.
    Mr. Issa. No, I understand. You have been very good to us.
    Mr. Mason. Thank you, Ms. Bush.
    Mr. Ivey. I apologize for impeding your time, but I did 
have an enforceability question, actually, a couple. The 
training issue, using artists' voices, in this instance, to 
train AI to create, and the discussion has been focused on 
making sure that the artists whose performance have been used 
for the training process get compensated for that.
    I guess I was wondering two things. One is enforceability 
of that, because if you use 1,000, say, artists to train the AI 
model, who is supposed to be tracking to make sure we know 
which of those 1,000 get compensated? Then the next level for 
whatever it is going to be training data 2.0, how do you even 
follow it then? Because not only will it use the 1,000, it 
might use others? So, enforceability and tracking it would be 
one question, and then should whatever law we are talking about 
putting in place still apply at the secondary level? That is 
for you and Mr. Mohr, I guess, or Professor Rothman, as well, 
if you like. You should answer first so you can run off.
    Mr. Mason. OK. Thank you. It is a very difficult question, 
and it is a very difficult solution. We need to figure out how 
we can understand what is being used to train AI. As you said, 
there could be 1,000 songs, and I think it pertains more to the 
song, the copyrighted songs. When you ask AI to create a song 
in the likeness of a certain artist, it will go back and listen 
to records or songs from that artist to decide how to emulate 
them. There has got to be a way to do it, technically speaking, 
and I am sure, it is scary to say, but it might even involve 
AI, tracking AI, and what is it using. We have to be able to 
understand whose music, whose works are being utilized and 
scraped to create new works, and those people need to be 
compensated.
    Mr. Ivey. Mr. Mohr?
    Mr. Issa. Thank you so much, Mr. Mason. Thank you so much 
for your time, on the most important day, of the most important 
event for intellectual property in the Nation.
    Mr. Mason. I appreciate it very much. Thank you.
    [Applause.]
    Mr. Ivey. Thank you to the clerk for pausing the time. I 
appreciate that.
    Mr. Issa. We are fair in this, if nothing else here.
    Mr. Mohr. So, a few things. One is that, in my own mind 
anyway, this is why it is really important that these cases get 
thoroughly litigated, because all the kinds of facts that you 
are talking about right now are the subject of very, very 
aggressive discovery, would be my guess. In other words, 
exactly how are these machines trained? What was put into them? 
How were they used? How were these works used, and on the back 
end, what steps were taken to make sure that the works were 
substantially similar or not, right. So, if you asked an AI 
engine, hey, can you give me the lyrics to ``Stairway to 
Heaven,'' it say no.
    Mr. Ivey. Well, as a recovering litigator, I will say this. 
It could take years before all that gets solved, and you will 
have, I am sure, conflicting decisions from different courts 
and jury trials. What should we be doing to try and fix it now 
instead of waiting for five or 10 years from now?
    Mr. Mohr. Well, right now, in terms of identity versus 
copyright, for copyright, from our point of view, is the courts 
are the institution that are best equipped to deal with these 
issues for now. With respect to the identity issues, I think--
    Mr. Ivey. Let me ask you then.
    Mr. Mohr. All right.
    Mr. Ivey. How would the copyright law apply to the 
hypothetical I gave you, especially for training data 2.0? Is 
there applicability under current law for that?
    Mr. Mohr. Oh boy. So, I am a recovering lawyer too, but it 
appears we are both having a relapse. Can you define for me, 
one more time, what training data 2.0, what you mean by 
training data 2.0?
    Mr. Ivey. Well, I guess there is the fair use question, 
right. So, you train--and I forget what he said--but let's say 
Motown hits, you want to generate Motown hits, so it takes 
1,000--yes, I am showing my age--you take 1,000 songs from 
Motown and it trains it up, and then you can use that for the 
AI system to generate new material. I think that is a fair use 
issue, and that the performers or original creators should 
still be compensated.
    The question was how you track it, and then the second 
question is even if we assume it is a fair use issue at Level 
1, is it still a fair use at 2.0?
    Mr. Mohr. So, in other words, at 2.0 you mean the output 
stage?
    Mr. Ivey. Yes, because at the next--well, no. Actually, the 
next level you will train one system and then it will generate 
songs then, but then you will have other systems that are doing 
the same thing, presumably. You could have another 1,000 of 
these new systems that then train the next level of the AI 
generation. That is the 2.0. So, the 2.0 trained by--and I am 
running out of time--but what do we do there, under current 
law, because you are saying we should follow that.
    Mr. Mohr. That is a really good question, and I am going to 
take that one for the record, if you don't mind.
    Mr. Ivey. Mr. Chair, I had to start right in with the 
questioning, but I do want to thank you and the Ranking Member 
for giving us a chance to have this hearing. The 
transferability issue, I would love to chat with you about it 
because I want to understand the James Earl Jones scenario. I 
guess we will have to do that offline. Thank you so much and 
thank you to the witnesses. I appreciate your insight.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you. As we begin to close I am going to 
take a couple of quick liberties. I am going to ask the Ranking 
Member to make a closing statement. I am also going to note 
that Congressman Schiff has been working diligently and has 
draft legislation on transparency of ingestion. One of the 
greatest questions is, Mr. Ivey, you said, well, if you went--
by the way, Motown is current. Let's not pretend it is old.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Issa. At least on my albums it is.
    Mr. Ivey. It is eternal.
    Mr. Issa. It is eternal. If you knew you ingested it for 
that purpose it would be relatively transparent to begin with, 
but I think Mr. Schiff is looking at something that ingests 
most of the internet, something that ingests vast amounts of 
information, and how do you, in fact, find out after the fact. 
I will yield to the gentleman for a minute to explain what he 
is working on, because I think it is critical.
    Mr. Schiff. Thank you, Mr. Chair. We are working on 
legislation that would require transparency for artists when 
their material is being ingested to essentially build these AI 
platforms and models, so that it could be tracked, so that 
where intellectual property is protected they have a right and 
a remedy and a recourse. I think the key is making sure that 
there are systems tracking what is being used to inform these 
AI systems, so that artists can be compensated when their works 
are used this way.
    Mr. Issa. I thank the gentleman, and I think, Mr. Mohr, 
that is going to go to your question of when you are building 
software, the systems of many of the people you represent, will 
they, in fact, be designing to be reportable. Will they be 
designed to be accountable and transparent. So, it is outside 
of the direct part of this hearing, but it is an important 
issue that this Committee will be dealing with.
    With that I would recognize the Ranking Member for his 
closing comments.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you. I want to once again 
thank the witnesses for their testimony. I also want to thank 
my friend and long-suffering colleague, Glenn Ivey, who always 
catches himself at the end of the dais, the last person to ask 
questions, but he always asks great questions, so thank you.
    For the witnesses, I am really intrigued with this issue of 
the contracting away of one's, or transferability as you call 
it, of one's likeness and voice, and how that can become as 
ubiquitous as arbitration clauses in consumer and employment 
agreements, and just in all consumer transactions. These 
clauses hidden in the bowels of an agreement, a use of terms 
agreement or an agreement for personal services, embedded 
there, a person doesn't read it, and the next thing you know, 
boom, you have transferred your rights for a lifetime, to use 
your voice and likeness. I am really intrigued about that, and 
I am intrigued--I didn't get a chance to ask you, Mr. Mohr, 
about your statement that you support the adoption of a risk-
based framework to regulate the technology. I wanted to hear 
more about that, but we shall reserve that discussion for 
another time.
    I do want to thank the witnesses for your testimony. I want 
to thank the Chair for hosting and calling this very important 
meeting, and also for insisting on the jurisdiction of this 
Subcommittee to delve into this important issue when other 
Committees in Congress are seeking to have primacy. This 
Subcommittee and our Full Committee fully vested with the need 
to deal in this area. So, thank you, Mr. Chair, and with that I 
yield back.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you. For the two of you, on behalf of the 
four of you, I am assuming you will take questions for the 
record.
    As we wind this down, I am going to simply point out a 
couple of areas that I think we will be talking about in the 
days and weeks to come, and they will be in many of the 
followup questions. They are stories for a moment.
    One story is that when Priscilla Presley was one of the 
producers of basically a documentary about the life that she 
lived with the late Elvis Presley, the estate of Elvis Presley 
refused to allow any of his music to be used, even though she 
had a seat at the table. What makes that interesting is, of 
course, would Elvis had said no? Did he think about that, or 
did he even think about his estate being transferred to whoever 
is in control of it rather than some decision he would make. 
That will bring up the question for Professor Rothman of don't 
we all ultimately transfer, lock, stock, and barrel, what we 
own to somebody, and that somebody, in the case of Casey Kasem, 
was not necessarily who Casey would have transferred. So, my 
questions will undoubtedly be along that line.
    Additionally, I will tell quickly the story that more than 
20 years ago, I sat at the very far end of a large table at a 
Foreign Affairs dinner, and we couldn't hear what was going on 
with the queen of Thailand at the other end. So, I spent a lot 
of time listening to my tablemate, and he complained about the 
inequity of not only the major studios and how he was treated 
on one of his follow-on pieces, but the fact that they were, or 
could, update his movie and change it. Well, he could not, in 
fact, go back and improve a failed movie. That man was Francis 
Ford Coppola, and he was talking about ``Godfather III.''
    I have never forgotten that because ultimately there are 
individual rights, such as Lainey's rights, but then there are 
groups and large entities, which would bring the last one. One 
of my dearest friends, I am proud to say, is Mike Love of The 
Beach Boys. Brian Wilson has not performed with The Beach Boys 
for longer than most people in this room have been alive. The 
fact is The Beach Boys went on without one of their key 
individuals. What is The Beach Boys? Who are The Beach Boys? 
What makes that group? There is a group entity, there is a 
likeness, there is a sound. That sound, does it belong to Mike 
Love? Well, if it is Kokomo it belongs to Mike Love. On the 
other hand, if it is a host of other songs it may belong to 
somebody else. Yet, the performers, over time, began with 
brothers and cousins, and over time had become more brothers 
and cousins, just different ones.
    So, many of my questions will be that, and I think for the 
professor, again, there will be a myriad of no one answer to 
that question of transferring rights and so on, but rather the 
necessity, in many cases, for a group, for example, to come 
together and say our group rights will be transferred, at least 
between 4, 40, or 400. I think of the major orchestras. 
Ultimately, no violinist has individual rights.
    So, I have tried to give complexity in the close to an 
already detailed and complex subject. What I have heard today, 
in closing, is we have a lot of work to do, we must do no harm, 
but, in fact, there is harm being done to people every day by 
the use of AI to their detriment, and in some cases there are 
laws, but in many cases the enforcement of those laws have to 
be streamlined for the benefit of all those who created the 
things that we enjoy and that make our life that much better.
    Without objection, all Members will have five legislative 
days in which to submit additional written questions for the 
witnesses and additional material. With that we stand 
adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]

    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the 
Subcommittee on Courts, Intellectual Property, and the Internet 
can
be found at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent 
.aspx?EventID=116778.

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