[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]








  CRIME ON THE RISE: HOW LAWLESSNESS IS IMPACTING MAIN STREET AMERICA

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                             UNITED STATES
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                              HEARING HELD
                            JANUARY 11, 2024

                               __________

 
 
 
 
 
 
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            Small Business Committee Document Number 118-034 
             Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov 
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
             
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                   HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                    ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas, Chairman
                      BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri
                        PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                        DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                         BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                         MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
                          TRACEY MANN, Kansas
                           JAKE ELLZEY, Texas
                        MARC MOLINARO, New York
                         MARK ALFORD, Missouri
                           ELI CRANE, Arizona
                          AARON BEAN, Florida
                           WESLEY HUNT, Texas
                         NICK LALOTA, New York
                          CELESTE MALOY, Utah
               NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member
                          JARED GOLDEN, Maine
                         KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
                        DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
                          GREG LANDSMAN, Ohio
                  MARIE GLUESENKAMP PEREZ, Washington
                        SHRI THANEDAR, Michigan
                       MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky
                       HILLARY SCHOLTEN, Michigan
                          JUDY CHU, California
                         SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
                      CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire

                  Ben Johnson, Majority Staff Director
                 Melissa Jung, Minority Staff Director 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                            C O N T E N T S

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Roger Williams..............................................     1
Hon. Nydia Velazquez.............................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Ms. Liora Rez, Executive Director, StopAntisemitism, testifying 
  on behalf of StopAntisemitism..................................     6
Mr. Gerald Scott, President and Chief Executive Officer, Elmer's 
  Restaurants, Inc., Vancouver, WA, testifying on behalf of 
  National Restaurant Association................................     8
Chief Reuben J. Roach, Chief of Police, City of Norwich Police 
  Department, Norwich, NY, testifying on behalf of City of 
  Norwich Police Department......................................     9
Dr. John Roman, Senior Fellow and Director, NORC at the 
  University of Chicago, Center on Public Safety and Justice, 
  Chicago, IL....................................................    11

                                APPENDIX

Prepared Statements:
    Ms. Liora Rez, Executive Director, StopAntisemitism, 
      testifying on behalf of StopAntisemitism...................    42
    Mr. Gerald Scott, President and Chief Executive Officer, 
      Elmer's Restaurants, Inc., Vancouver, WA, testifying on 
      behalf of National Restaurant Association..................    45
    Chief Reuben J. Roach, Chief of Police, City of Norwich 
      Police Department, Norwich, NY, testifying on behalf of 
      City of Norwich Police Department..........................    48
    Dr. John Roman, Senior Fellow and Director, NORC at the 
      University of Chicago, Center on Public Safety and Justice, 
      Chicago, IL................................................    51
Questions for the Record:
    None.
Answers for the Record:
    None.
Additional Material for the Record:
    International Council of Shopping Centers (ICSC).............    58
    The National Association of Convenience Stores (NACS), NATSO, 
      Representing America's Travel Plazas and Truckstops, and 
      SIGMA: America's Leading Fuel Marketers....................    60
    Sheetz.......................................................    63
    Vox..........................................................    65

 
  CRIME ON THE RISE: HOW LAWLESSNESS IS IMPACTING MAIN STREET AMERICA

                              ----------                              


                       THURSDAY, JANUARY 11, 2024

                  House of Representatives,
               Committee on Small Business,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in Room 
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Roger Williams 
[chairman of the Committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Van 
Duyne, Salazar, Mann, Molinaro, Alford, Crane, Bean, LaLota, 
Maloy, Velazquez, Golden, Mfume, Landsman, McGarvey, 
Gluesenkamp Perez, Scholten, Thanedar, and Davids.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Before we get started, I want to 
recognize Representative Molinaro to lead us in the pledge and 
a prayer.
    Mr. MOLINARO. If you would join me in prayer. We are 
reading Second Corinthians, and God is able to bless you 
abundantly so that in all things at all times having all that 
you need, you will be abound in every good work.
    Dear Lord, we come together today in a divided nation, men 
and women, small businesses, farmers, families, struggling 
hard. And we turn to you in persistent prayer seeking what we 
need. Oftentimes we pray and ask what we want, but we know dear 
Lord that you provide us what we need.
    In a moment of time where our businesses struggle we ask 
that you that give them what they need. In a moment of time 
where our families and farmers and neighbors continue to 
struggle, we ask that you to give us what we need. In a moment 
where our nation is divided throughout all levels of 
government, we ask that you give all those in leadership what 
we need. We pray fervently for those men and women who serve in 
sacrifice on behalf of this nation, and we pray, dear God, for 
America. May you bless all who serve and may you bless the 
United States, amen.
    I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of 
America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, 
under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. I now call the Committee on Small 
Business to order. And without objection, the Chair is 
authorized to declare a recess of the committee at any time.
    I would like to take a moment to introduce the 
subcommittees for our newest Member, Ms. Celeste Maloy, from 
the great State of Utah who will join the Subcommittee on Rural 
Development, Energy, And Supply Chains, as well as the 
Subcommittee on Contracting and Infrastructure. Welcome, 
Congresswoman.
    I ask unanimous consent that her addition to these 
subcommittees be approved. And without objection, so ordered. 
We are excited to have her on our team and look forward to her 
contributions. I now recognize myself for my opening statement.
    Good morning, and welcome to our first hearing of 2024. 
Today we are going to focus on the negative impact of rampant 
crime on small businesses and what can be done to address it. 
First, I want to thank our witnesses for being with us today 
and we know your time is valuable and we appreciate your 
choosing it to spend with us.
    On top of the economic challenges of inflation, supply 
chain, disruptions and inability to find qualified workers, 
small businesses are facing another issue that has grown worse 
in the past few years, and I am speaking, of course, of out of 
control crime. Crime deters potential customers from visiting 
areas where they feel unsafe. And many of our nation's brick 
and mortar stores are around casual foot traffic to survive. 
Areas that do not have adequate public safety measures in place 
are causing small businesses to think twice about investing in 
them. In order to keep customers and employees safe, businesses 
are being forced to hire private security services. 
Unfortunately, many businesses are unable to pay for this 
expense, but it shouldn't be necessary in the first place. 
Unfortunately there are policy decisions making it harder for 
small businesses to deal with this new challenge. For example, 
last year, the mayor of Columbus, Ohio forced some small 
business owners to close early to protect against crime. 
Instead of focusing on the individuals committing the crimes, 
the mayor decided to force the business owners to limit the 
time of day they can work and earn a living. And this simply is 
unacceptable.
    Additionally, we are seeing many metropolitan institutes 
institute cashless bail. This allows repeat offenders back on 
the streets to continue to commit crimes. The New York Times 
reported that in New York City, 327 people were collectively 
arrested over 6,000 times for shoplifting. This accounted for 
one-third of all shoplifting crimes in the city, which is 
particularly detrimental to small business. This brings up a 
larger issue that we are seeing across the country. Rather than 
protecting the entrepreneurs that bet on themselves and take 
risk to open a business, criminals are being protected. The 
light-on-crime approach is allowing people to commit crimes 
without fear of repercussions or prosecution. Over the last few 
years there has been a rise in coordinated smash-and-grab 
crimes.
    To keep employees out of harm's way, many companies are 
instituting policies to simply allow these acts to take place 
and let the criminals go free. This not only creates an unsafe 
work environment for employees, but also strains the resources 
of law enforcement officers. In speaking with small businesses 
as we prepared for this hearing, we heard some businesses that 
have been told to stop calling the police to protect 
shoplifting because the police don't have the capacity to stop 
these small dollar crimes. This is extremely troubling, and 
these small crimes quickly add up for small businesses.
    Capital One shopping research reported that theft cost the 
retail industry over $112 billion in 2022 alone. This is enough 
to force many small businesses to shut their doors for good.
    Even worse, and more evil and sinister form of crime has 
been on the rise the last few months and that is anti-Semitic 
hate crimes. After the attack on Israel the U.S. saw an 
onslaught of anti-Semitic rhetoric. Since early October attacks 
on Jewish people and businesses in the U.S. are up over 400 
percent. All across the country Jewish business owners are 
being sent hate mail, vandalized and attacked because of their 
religious beliefs. And as elected officials, I hope we can all 
stand together to call out these heinous actions.
    Crime remains the top problem for many job creators across 
the country. Main street should not feel like it is under siege 
from criminals who have no fear of the law or consequences and 
simply have absolutely no investment. Our nation's primary job 
creators deserve better. They deserve to know when they open 
their doors and when they can be open for business. They will 
not come under attack by violent wrongdoers who are out to 
destroy their livelihoods. Prosecutors need to prosecute, and 
police need to be allowed to police their communities.
    So before we continue, I ask unanimous consent to submit a 
letter for the record discussing the negative consequences 
crime has been having on their industries from the National 
Association of Convenience Stores, the Society of Independent 
Gasoline Marketers of America, and the National Association of 
Truck Stop Operators. Without objection, so ordered.
    So I would like to, again, thank all our witnesses for 
being here with us. I look forward to today's discussion. And 
it is my hope we can find some common ground as to how best to 
help our nation's small businesses during this time.
    So with that, I yield to our distinguished Ranking Member 
from New York, Ms. Velazquez.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There is no doubt 
that small businesses are often the victims of crime all across 
the country, whether it is small retailers being victims of 
shoplifting, the local restaurant traumatized by hate crimes, 
or the countless businesses on the front lines of our nation's 
devastating gun violence epidemic.
    The impact of crime on small firms can take many forms. 
These acts can take a significant toll on small businesses, 
their employees and their potential customer base. 
Unfortunately, small businesses are often more vulnerable, 
either lacking adequate security to deter criminals, or the 
technical expertise to protect their information from 
cybercrime.
    I am certainly supportive of efforts to train business 
owners on how to handle threats, and in law enforcement, 
holding criminals accountable. Businesses should be able to 
compete in a fair, competitive environment, and nobody should 
feel unsafe going to work or to shop at their local stores.
    I extend my deepest sympathy to those affected and 
traumatized by senseless acts of crime and violence. However, 
as policymakers, we must make our decisions based on complete 
and accurate data. My concern is that when it comes to topics 
like organized retail crime and shoplifting, a very real issue 
is being politicized to upend good faith efforts like criminal 
justice reform.
    As we move forward from the era of mass incarceration and 
broken windows policing, it is crucial we do not lose sight of 
the very real negative impacts these policies had on low-income 
communities and communities of color. I urge my colleagues not 
to engage in knee-jerk reactions that set back our real 
progress toward creating a more equitable criminal justice 
system. Instead, with accurate data, swift action and 
increasing the certainty that a crime will be caught, we can 
make real progress at crime prevention.
    Efforts to increase the punishments for certain crimes will 
result in higher prison populations and disproportionate 
effects on vulnerable communities.
    With that said, I would be remiss if I did not point out 
that crime is, in fact, not on the rise. The most recent 
quarterly report from the FBI shows steep drops in both violent 
and poverty crime nationally. Larceny theft is almost uniformly 
dropping across the country, and homicides are showing one of 
the largest drops on record. Yet, when it comes to retail 
theft, overall shrink has held steady in recent years and 
retail crime is actually dropping in most of the country. This 
is not to say this isn't a problem--and criminals should 
absolutely be prosecuted. However, proposals to change laws 
should be made based on accurate and complete data.
    Lastly, one thing I think we can all agree on is that the 
rise in hate crimes and harassment directed toward minority-
owned businesses is unacceptable. Whether it is to our Jewish- 
or Muslim-owned businesses resulting from the war in Gaza or 
Asian-owned businesses in the aftermath of the pandemic--hate 
crimes directed toward business owners should be rooted out at 
all levels.
    I am open to working with my colleagues on this committee 
to address hate crimes directed at businesses, whether it is 
motivated by race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation or 
gender identity. I hope we can engage in an honest, open and 
reasonable dialogue on ways to combat crime that is affecting 
small businesses.
    With that, I ask unanimous consent that this article from 
Vox, ``The Shoplifting Scare Might Not Have Been Real But Its 
Effects Are'' into the record.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Yeah.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. I would like to thank all of the witnesses 
for joining us today, and I yield back.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
    And now we will move to the introduction of the witnesses. 
I now recognize my colleague, Representative LaLota, to briefly 
introduce the first witness appearing before us today.
    Mr. LALOTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    It is my honor to introduce Ms. Liora Rez, the executive 
director of StopAntisemitism, a grassroots watchdog 
organization that publicly exposes anti-Semitic behavior. A 
refugee from the former Soviet Union where anti-Semitism was 
rampant, Ms. Rez is all too familiar with its dangers.
    Using her decade of experience in digital marketing, Ms. 
Rez has harnessed the power of social media to create a network 
of activists who identify and expose anti-Semites.
    Since its founding in 2018, StopAntisemitism's reach has 
expanded to millions of people. Ms. Rez graduated from Brandeis 
University with a Bachelor of Science in neuroscience, and then 
went on to receive her executive master's of business 
administration from Case Western Reserve University.
    Mr. Chairman, the United States is a proud nation founded 
upon religious freedom. And with what is going on in the world 
today, post October 7 especially, it is important that we 
confront anti-Semitism and religious intolerance. And so we 
welcome you, Ms. Rez. And we thank you for joining us today. We 
look forward to having that conversation.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
    And the next witness here with us today is Mr. Gerry Scott. 
Mr. Scott is the president and CEO of Elmer's Restaurants 
located in Medford, Oregon. Elmer's Restaurants is a franchisor 
and operator of over 20 restaurants, under several brands, 
across multiple States. Mr. Scott has been with the company 
since 1998 where he was vice president until 2010 when he 
assumed his current role as president and CEO.
    He was previously on the boards of the Oregon Restaurant 
Association, Oregon Restaurant and Lodging Association where he 
served on the executive committee and is Chair from 2017 to 
2018. I want to thank you again, Mr. Scott, for joining us 
today and we look forward to the conversation ahead.
    I now recognize my colleague, Representative Molinaro, to 
briefly introduce the constituent who is appearing before us 
today.
    Mr. MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Our next witness with us today is Chief Reuben Roach. Chief 
Roach is the chief of police for the Norwich Police Department 
located in Norwich, New York in upstate in the 19th District of 
the State of New York. He was appointed chief of police last 
year and is in his twentieth year of law enforcement.
    Chief Roach originally joined the Norwich Police Department 
in 2005, and was promoted to sergeant in 2014, and then 
promoted again to detective sergeant in 2016. Prior to serving 
for the Norwich Police Department, he served as deputy sheriff 
for the Chenango County Sheriff's office.
    In addition to his current role as chief of police, he also 
serves on the board of his county's Chamber of Commerce. And I 
certainly appreciate Chief Roach for joining us today and look 
forward to the conversation ahead.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. And I now recognize 
the Ranking Member from New York, Ms. Velazquez to briefly 
introduce our last witness appearing before us today.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Our final witness today is Dr. John Roman, a Senior Fellow 
in the Economics Justice and Society Department at the 
University of Chicago where he also directs the Center on 
Public Safety and Justice. His research focuses on the 
economics of innovative crime and justice policies and 
programs, cost-benefit methodology, public-private partnerships 
and system reforms. He has served as the principal investigator 
for more than three dozen projects, funded by FITA and local 
governments, as well as national and local philanthropies.
    Over the last 3 years, he led a task force to investigate 
the U.S. firearms data infrastructure, and currently leads the 
study of the financial cost of criminal victimization.
    Thank you Dr. Roman, we look forward to your testimony.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much. And again, we 
appreciate all of you being here today.
    Now before recognizing witnesses, I would like to remind 
them that their oral testimony is restricted to 5 minutes in 
length. If you see the light in front of you turn red in front 
of you it means your 5 minutes has concluded and you should 
wrap up your testimony. And if you keep going, you are going to 
hear a little bit of this and this means shut it down, okay? 
And all of you will be fine.
    So I now recognize Ms. Rez for her 5-minute opening 
remarks.

STATEMENTS OF LIORA REZ, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, STOPANTISEMITISM, 
 ON BEHALF OF STOPANTISEMITISM; GERALD SCOTT, PRESIDENT & CEO, 
  ELMER'S RESTAURANTS, INC., ON BEHALF OF NATIONAL RESTAURANT 
 ASSOCIATION; CHIEF REUBEN J. ROACH, CHIEF OF POLICE, CITY OF 
NORWICH POLICE DEPARTMENT, ON BEHALF OF CITY OF NORWICH POLICE 
DEPARTMENT; DR. JOHN ROMAN, SENIOR FELLOW AND DIRECTOR, NORC AT 
 THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO, CENTER ON PUBLIC SAFETY AND JUSTICE

                     STATEMENT OF LIORA REZ

    Ms. REZ. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me 
here. As mentioned, my name is Liora Rez. And I am the founder 
and executive director of StopAntisemitism, a nonpartisan 
grassroots organization devoted to raising awareness of anti-
Semitic incidents and holding anti-Semites accountable for 
their bigotry.
    I started this organization in 2018, after I started 
noticing how rising online anti-Semitism bled into it the real 
world. Since then the anti-Semitic harassment assault and 
vandalism has skyrocketed to historic highs, and Hamas' 
atrocities on October 7 has only thrown gasoline on to the 
fire.
    The FBI has reported a 60 percent increase in reported hate 
crimes after October 7, most of which were directed at Jews. 
Our inboxes have reflected this and then some as we have 
experienced a 1,500 percent increase in reported incidents. A 
disturbing amount of targeting is directed toward small 
businesses. Video after video, coast after coast shows anti-
Semites and anti-Israel activists using mob chants, vandalism 
and intimidation against Jewish and Israeli-owned businesses 
and their patrons.
    I recently had a sobering conversation with a Jewish 
entrepreneur in the greater Detroit area who has been the 
ongoing target of numerous pro-Palestinian targets--protests, 
excuse me. One particular troubling incident occurred on 
January 1, during his restaurant's annual New Year's brunch. 
Protesters smuggled megaphones into his restaurant and 
proceeded to shout that the restaurant was complicit in 
genocide against the Palestinian people. They then tossed 
propaganda leaflets at diners intentionally creating such a 
hostile environment that every single one of these people got 
up and left. This ended up costing this restaurant owner over 
$10,000 in revenues in just 1 day. These agitators have one 
goal for him to close down his doors. This targeting has 
dramatically altered how this restaurant owner has conducted 
his business. He no longer allows large bags inside his 
establishments, he has altered his reservation policies, he is 
offering emergency mental health resources to his 
understandably shaken employees, and he is spending between 
$100,000 and $125,000 on security measures just in the last 90 
days.
    His harrowing experience is not unique. Jewish small 
businesses owners have had a horrifying few months. A deli in 
New York City was defaced with a swastika and anti-Semitic 
graffiti, the owner was concerned about hanging Israeli and 
American flags in his windows because he feared a mob would 
quote, ``come throw rocks in my storefront.'' A restaurant in 
Philadelphia was vandalized by a mob charging him with 
genocide.
    Democratic Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro called the 
incident, ``a blatant act of anti-Semitism, not a peaceful 
protest.'' Many of these perpetrators of these incidents were 
apparently motivated by the business' public support of Israel, 
as the nation defends itself against Hamas terrorists, 
essentially holding Jews halfway around the world responsible 
for a war in the Middle East. Adding insult to injuries, not 
all of these incidents are prosecuted as hate crimes, if 
prosecuted at all.
    In my correspondences with these businesses, I see the 
financial and emotional cost of anti-Semitism firsthand every 
day. Many have insufficient cash reserves to repair and secure 
their locations, some are threatened as their families both in 
line and in person.
    For me and many other Jews, these incidents call to mind 
the pogroms that have dogged our history. Jewish businesses 
were routinely vandalized and defaced under the rules of Nazis, 
Soviets and other anti-Semitic regimes. Not just the simple 
acts of subjugation, but also public signals that Jews were 
quote, ``the other'' and, therefore, fair game. Violence was 
the inevitable result.
    Today the word ``Jew'' is also replaced with Zionist as 
codeword, a mask of sorts that tries to justify the anti-
Semitism under the guise of social justice. While the words may 
change, the results are always the same, the isolation of Jews, 
the targeting of Jews and the violence against Jews.
    Despite or perhaps because of that I am routinely inspired 
by the small business owners resilience and tenacity. Rather 
than being defeated, they double down living as proud Jews and 
supporters of Israel. They haven't taken down their flags, they 
haven't apologized for their faith and they haven't closed 
their doors. However, admirable in their resolve, they should 
not have to display resilience in the first place. It is 
unacceptable for small businesses to be subjected to hate and 
vandalism over their identity, much less their views on the 
Middle East.
    I appreciate the committee's attention to this crisis, as 
Jewish small businesses have been a crucial part of America's 
economic fabric since the nation's founding. Thank you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you very much.
    And I now recognize Mr. Scott for his 5-minute opening 
remarks.

                   STATEMENT OF GERALD SCOTT

    Mr. SCOTT. Chairman Williams and Ranking Member Velazquez, 
on behalf of Elmer's Restaurant and the National Restaurant 
Association I thank you for the opportunity to share our 
perspective on how crime on the rise is impacting main street 
businesses like mine.
    The Elmer's family of restaurants is comprised of 26 full-
service breakfast-centric restaurant in Idaho, Washington, 
California, Oregon and Arizona. Fully half of the restaurants 
are owned and operated by independent franchisees.
    Restaurant operators do their best to ensure that patrons 
and employees feel safe. For example, many operators like me 
have shortened hours, installed or expanded security systems 
and reduced cash on hand.
    But while we can adopt new practices to lessen risk, the 
seriousness of crime activity makes this an entirely new ball 
game. In just the last 6 months at the Elmer's family of 
restaurants, one of our locations experienced two armed 
robberies in the space of 3 weeks. Two other locations have had 
armed robberies during the same time. A young guest was unable 
to produce a valid I.D. to purchase beer. When he became 
abusive to the server, the guest of course was asked to leave. 
He returned with a firearm, pointed it at the server and 
threatened to kill the server.
    In Washington, one of the Washington restaurant's guests 
and employees have had over 15 vehicle break-ins while dining 
or working, including the theft of the general manager's 
vehicle. In spring of 2021, the crime and homeless issues in 
the neighborhood around our north Portland location became so 
untenable that both guests and team members were no longer 
willing to come to the restaurant. This restaurant, which had 
been one of the top sales locations in 2018, was permanently 
closed in April of 2021. And there are numerous other incidents 
that I documented in my written testimony.
    Now let me be clear, these criminal acts are not the fault 
of the police department or bad policing, sheriff departments 
or public safety bureaus. They are doing the best that they 
possibly can with the resources that they have. But for 
restaurants, the cost of dealing with an increasing crime is 
significant.
    Let's take an example, our Elmer's Restaurant in Tacoma, 
Washington, here is a restaurant that used to be quite 
profitable. However, because of burgeoning crime, we have had 
to hire private security patrols to maintain a safe 
environment. With security measures now costing $80,000 per 
year this eats up 40 percent of the restaurant's profits before 
overhead and taxes. Excluding rent, that represents the third 
largest cost after labor and food cost. Keeping the restaurant 
safe has even surpassed credit card fees as a significant cost 
item.
    I started in the restaurant business at age 15 as a busboy 
in a mom-and-pop Italian restaurant on the Hill in St. Louis. I 
have spent my entire life since in the business of serving 
others. I think it is a great life. I am neither a 
criminologist nor a sociologist, I am a pancake salesman that 
is looking to help keep our guests and team members safe. We do 
everything that we can to have security systems, private 
patrols, training, altering hours of operation. We provide 
counseling for team members who may have been crime victims and 
constant, constant vigilance.
    We cannot do it alone. We need your help in reducing crime. 
Restaurants build their community. These are places where 
people go to celebrate, to have their first date, to enjoy time 
with friends and family, free from the weight of the outside 
world.
    Restaurants are most often at the heart of every good time 
with friends and family. Small business owners, the core of the 
restaurant business, the core of my business, are the 
entrepreneurs that have their entire net worth, in fact their 
entire lives invested in that building, that block, and that 
community.
    Crime undermines all of this. Even if the dollar loss is 
slight, the cost to repair the doors and windows is 
significant. And what is the cost to an employee who had a gun 
pointed at them, praying that they survive the next few 
minutes. After every crime, the owner cleans up. When they are 
done picking up the pieces, they ask themselves, Is this worth 
it?
    When they start answering no, the lights go out, the 
community becomes a darker and colder place, and the 
neighborhood much less like a place where you'd like to live.
    Thank you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
    I now recognize Chief Roach for his 5-minute opening 
remarks.

               STATEMENT OF CHIEF REUBEN J. ROACH

    Chief ROACH. Good morning. I want to start by thanking this 
committee, and specifically the representatives here who are 
willing to take the time to listen to those of us from smaller 
communities who are seeing firsthand the consequences of the 
crime rate and how it is affecting Main Street America.
    My name is Reuben Roach, and presently, I am the chief of 
police for the city of Norwich Police Department in upstate New 
York. In this role, my duties include managing the resources 
allocated to me, as well as the 21 full-time officers who wear 
the Norwich police uniform.
    In my 20-year career as a police officer, I have worked in 
just about every subcategory of law enforcement from narcotics 
interdiction, as a drug recognition expert, a child abuse and 
sex crimes forensic interviewer, a hostage negotiation team 
member, and many other facets. It has been a rewarding and 
fulfilling career.
    In 2003, I was asked to be a representative on the board of 
Commerce Chenango in the county where I live. Happily, I 
accepted this offer and I was excited to build that 
relationship between the businesses and the police department. 
I quickly learned, however, that many of our businesses were 
suffering and that most of them were desperate for something to 
change. The complaints I heard were mostly similar in nature, 
an influx of homelessness, loitering, open drug use in the 
business district, and unfortunately but not uncommon amongst 
the complaints, is that people were defecating and urinating in 
many of the business owner's doorways and parking areas.
    Commerce president, Salvatore Testani, summed it up when 
said to me that the current homeless challenge has greatly 
increased the amount of loitering and open drug use in downtown 
Norwich and throughout the city. They are concerned because 
their customers, employees feel unsafe and it is having a 
significant impact on their livelihoods.
    In the ensuing months, 40 of our local business owners have 
formed a coalition in the city of Norwich to lobby for tougher 
nuisance laws. And as many of our business owners have said 
something that has teeth to clean up the area.
    Our local common council, our mayor, our codes department, 
our fire department, the police department, are working to help 
ease this burden for these business, but it is challenging to 
say the least. I am often asked not just by business owners, 
but by my residents, about why the crime rate is rising; why 
people who are repeatedly getting arrested are not in jail; why 
drug houses are on nearly every street; and why the overdose 
rate is as high as it is.
    While bail reform may not be the answer to every one of 
these questions, I can tell you from a 20-year career in law 
enforcement it is certainly a contributing factor.
    When the Norwich Police Department executes a search 
warrant on a drug house, the individuals they arrest are back 
on the street within hours. These are drug houses and drug 
dealers, these aren't drug users. The houses destroy 
neighborhoods and make them unsafe for people to raise their 
families. Yet these same individuals are released back to the 
public often with multiple class B felonies the very same days 
they are arrested.
    As I mentioned previously, citizens and business owners are 
concerned about witnessing individuals getting arrested 
repeatedly and not going to jail. Well, they are not wrong. 
Oftentimes we arrest the same individuals, five, six, seven 
times before they are even arraigned in court. Crimes like 
loitering, disorderly conduct, harassment, trespassing criminal 
possession of a controlled substance, resisting arrest are just 
a few of the common crimes that we arrest and release 
individuals for within hours.
    Working closely with our District Attorney, Michael 
Ferrarese, we have continued to fight this uphill battle, all 
while watching our small town deteriorate. D.A. Ferrarese also 
summed up when he said to me, It is concerning to me as a 
District Attorney that we have businesses being stolen from 
daily, without any immediate consequences to the perpetrator. 
Bail should always be within the judge's discretion and not 
controlled by legislative roadblocks preventing us from being 
able to protect our communities.
    In closing, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that 
recruitment and retention in law enforcement is at the lowest 
I've ever seen it. When I was hired in 2003 as a deputy 
sheriff, I competed with at least 100 individuals for three 
positions. Today, 2024, Norwich Police Department has three 
openings, potentially three openings. And we had five people 
take our test. That doesn't include the background 
investigation. Those are just five individuals that took our 
test.
    As a Member of the New York State Chiefs Association, I can 
tell that recruitment and retention are on the mind of every 
chief in New York.
    Lastly, I want to thank each one of you for taking time to 
listen to us and for helping come up with solutions for the 
ever increasing issue of crime on the rise.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
    And I now recognize Dr. Roman for his 5-minute opening 
remarks.

                    STATEMENT OF JOHN ROMAN

    Mr. ROMAN. Good morning. Chairman Williams, Ranking Member 
Velazquez, and Members of the Committee I am honored by the 
opportunity to discuss the important issue of the effects of 
crime on small businesses in America.
    I am a senior fellow of NORC at the University of Chicago. 
NORC is a nonprofit economic and social research organization 
committed to delivering objective nonpartisan insights and 
analysis that decisionmakers trust. I have been studying crime 
injustice for more than 25 years.
    The last 4 years have been a time of profound uncertainty 
for all Americans, including small business owners and their 
patrons. In my field of criminal justice and economics, between 
2019 and 2020, we observed the largest 1-year increase in 
homicide since the FBI began keeping modern crime statistics in 
1960. Conversely, in 2023 we saw the largest 1-year decrease in 
violence recorded to date. This period of disruption included 
several unusual changes in criminal activity, including reports 
of increased carjackings, frightening videos of organized 
retail theft and vicious images of hate crimes.
    Separately and together, these reports have created deep 
concern throughout America. I intentionally use the word 
reports rather than statistics because the empirical data 
around each of these crimes are extremely limited. Broader 
national crime statistics suggest that these events have been 
relatively limited.
    Beginning March 2, 2020, the effects of the COVID-19 
pandemic began to overwhelm the daily routines of many, if not 
most Americans. And COVID had a significant impact on reported 
crimes.
    In 2020, aggravated assaults increased to about 12 percent, 
and homicides increased more than 28 percent. But not all types 
of crime increased. Robberies and property crime declined. And 
larceny theft declined in 2020 by more than 10 percent.
    In 2021 and 2022, crime in the United States remained 
relatively stable, at least compared to the volatility of the 
prior year. Violent crime declined in both years. Property 
crimes, though, were mixed. Down in 2021, up in 2022. So let me 
turn to what the FBI calls larceny theft but what which most of 
us would think of as shoplifting, which followed the same 
pattern. Shoplifting declined almost 5 percent in 2021, but 
increased more than 7 percent in 2022. However, new estimates 
for 2023 show large declines in all types of crime, including 
homicide and violence, property crimes and shoplifting. Thus as 
we sit here in February--I am sorry, I am getting ahead of 
myself--January of 2024, homicide is returning to prepandemic 
levels, but other types of crime violent crimes and property 
crimes as a whole, and larceny theft in particular are now at 
or below prepandemic levels.
    Any number of credible theories have been proposed as to 
why crime first rose and then fell. The pandemic was an 
everything, everywhere, all at once experience for most 
Americans. But most explanations are not similarly all 
encompassing, and they explain the crime spike of 2020, but not 
the crime decline of 2023.
    Widespread social distancing in response to the COVID 
pandemic best fits the data. The most straightforward 
explanation for both the spike and decline is the pandemic and 
the direct consequences of the pandemic. In particular, what 
almost all the explanations for the crime decline have in 
common is that they have dramatic impacts on activities 
supported by local government. Local government experienced a 
dramatic reduction in workforce during the pandemic that 
persisted through 2022, and then rapidly reversed in 2023.
    Local governments performed numerous activities that are 
directly related to fighting crime. Most of America's 700,000 
police officers are employed by local government, as are 8 
million or so teachers.
    Between March 2020 and May 2020, 3 months, more than 1 
million local government, and 300,000 State government jobs 
were lost. Today, local governments have, by most measures, 
returned to prepandemic levels.
    The United States experienced a disruption in daily life 
that has few precedents in recent decades. Concerns about 
victimization deepened in all corners of the nation from 
neighborhoods with persistent high levels of violence, to main 
streets with little history of reported victimization. When 
faced with such uncertainty, one reasonable response is to 
explore deep policy changes. But in the case of crime and 
violence, the key causes appear to be the direct effects of the 
pandemic. As the effect of the pandemic on routine activities 
have returned to normal, those negative effects were begun to 
dissipate.
    So, in conclusion, while there are many lessons from the 
pandemic, one that gets less attention is the need to 
strengthen our national criminal justice data infrastructure. 
Doing so will strengthen the evidence for future policymaking, 
and provide a foundation for evidence-based solutions to crime 
and victimization in the future.
    Thank you very much.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. And we will now move to the 
Member questions under the 5-minute rule. But first I want to 
say, you are going to see a lot of people come and go, don't 
let it worry you, there are other hearings going on. So people 
go, they will come back and so forth, so.
    Contrary to what people are seeing and feeling on the 
ground and the FBI released some data that claims violent 
crimes are going down, we have heard that, it appears that the 
quality of this data may be off. So Chief Roach, can you tell 
us what someone must do to get a third-degree assault charge? 
And is this categorized as a violent crime in New York? And are 
there any other crimes that are no longer being classified as 
violent?
    Chief ROACH. Thank you. Yes, so assault third would be 
anything that causes physical injury. Below assault third would 
be harassment second. I believe that reads any shoving, 
kicking, pushing. When it comes to assault third, you have to 
have physical injury. For instance, if someone were to strike 
somebody and they were break their nose or at least have a 
black eye, that would be an assault third. That has been taken 
out of the violent classification. So that is not considered a 
violent crime now. Additionally, things like rape third, rape 
in the third degree, is not considered a violent crime now. So 
there are a slew of different charges that have moved from 
violent crime categories to the nonviolent crime category.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. So that may be one reason people think 
that they are down, there are just not as many being included.
    Chief ROACH. I believe so.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Okay. As a small-business owner myself, 
I am all too familiar with challenges of this new crime wave. 
In December alone, I had two incidents where people stole cars 
off my auto lot. It is amazing that this has made its way to a 
small town called Weatherford, Texas. But we are seeing even 
more drastic effects in our cities.
    Mr. Scott, there was a line in your testimony that I 
thought was especially powerful and I want to repeat it for 
everyone watching. It went like this: After every crime when 
the owner is done picking up the pieces, they ask themselves, 
Is this worth it? When they start answering no, the lights go 
out, the community gets colder and darker and the neighborhood 
becomes much less like a place where want to live. So I think 
this line resonated with a lot of business owners because they 
hear that.
    So Mr. Scott, can you tell us how crime has fundamentally 
changed your community in Portland, Oregon, over the last few 
years?
    Mr. SCOTT. Chairman Williams, thank you for the question.
    As I had mentioned in my testimony, one of the ways it has 
changed for us is that we ended up closing a formerly, very 
well-performing restaurant in north Portland due to crime and 
homeless issues around it. We simply could not get guests to be 
willing to come into the restaurant and eventually even 
employees.
    Also, the rise in crime has just made it more difficult to 
operate the restaurant, it becomes more expensive to provide 
security to make the guests feel safe. If the guests and the 
employees don't feel safe, we can't continue with the business.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Right.
    Following the October 7 attack on Israel, we have seen 
reports that anti-Semitic incidents have increased by nearly 
400 percent. We have heard that earlier.
    Ms. Rez, your organization stopped anti-Semitism tracks and 
exposes these incidents. And we have seen some high profile 
businesses being harassed for their religious beliefs, but we 
know that there are many more that go unreported. So my 
question to you is, can you talk about some of the most common 
forms of harassment that the Jewish businesses and employees 
are facing and how these business owners and individuals are 
responding to these hate crimes?
    Ms. REZ. Thank you for the question, Chairman.
    Oftentimes, Jewish business owners are reporting mob-type 
protests outside of their establishments. This is deterring 
traffic to these establishments. It is causing a direct drop in 
revenues, and it is subsequently requiring more security 
measures on these business owners, which again is dropping 
their bottom line.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
    Soft on crime policies have undermined the ability of our 
great police officers and judicial systems to hold criminals 
accountable. There must be consequences for criminals that 
break the law, or the problem is only going to get worse. One 
of the worst policies that shows there are no repercussions for 
crime is cashless bail. The New York P.D. provided our 
committee with 2023 statistics which showed the top 542 repeat 
criminals accounted for 30 percent of all New York City retail 
theft, with over 45 percent of these individuals being 
previously convicted of a felony.
    So our criminal justice system knows which individuals are 
committing the crimes, but because of politics we are failing 
to hold them accountable.
    So in my brief time I have left, Chief Roach, can you talk 
about some of the detrimental policies that are tipping the 
scales in favor of criminals and hurting small business owners' 
ability to work and make a living.
    Chief ROACH. Thank you. Yes, we get complaints frequently 
from business owners of drug use, loitering. And because of 
that happening in front of the storefronts or the businesses, 
people are not patronizing the restaurants, the stores. It is 
hurting business owners' bottom line. Their revenue is 
shrinking because of it.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. [Audio malfunction.]
    Chief ROACH. Well, rape third is not a violent crime in New 
York State.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize the Ranking Member for 5 
minutes of questions.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Many people accuse cash bail reform of the cause of 
increased crime. However, it seems like the biggest problem 
with the reform was the timing of its implementation right on 
the cusp of the pandemic. In fact, recent studies have found no 
connection between this bill reform and the rising crime during 
the pandemic. In one analysis of 100,000 cases, where someone 
was released pretrial in a decision related to the state's 
recent bill, just 2 percent led to rearrest for a violent 
felony and roughly one-fifth less to rearrest for any offense.
    In total, out of these 100,000 cases, as many as 80,000 
people may have avoided jail incarceration due to the reforms, 
allowing them to continue going to work or providing for their 
family in the pretrial period.
    Dr. Roman, many of the efforts at criminal justice reform, 
like bail reform, and lifting felony thresholds are blamed for 
a perceived surge in shoplifting. What does the research 
actually say about these policies and what benefits do they 
bring to society?
    Mr. ROMAN. Thank you for that question.
    So it is important to say what ending cash bail means, 
right? So any cash bail just means that the judge either has to 
decide to remand an arrestee to jail pending a trial, or to 
release them, instead of setting a cash bail where they have to 
pay for the opportunity to be released. Being held pretrial is 
associated with far worse outcomes for misdemeanor defendants, 
which are most of the shoplifting arrestees to the extent that 
a recent study from some folks at Chicago and elsewhere found 
that not being detained or being released reduces the number of 
future complaints by more than half. So allowing people to be 
released pretrial improves their outcomes, both during the 
period when they are released and their long-term outcomes.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
    Many small businesses like retailers and restaurants are 
increasingly becoming the site of gun violence. What are the 
economic effects on these businesses and surrounding areas when 
gun violence is prevalent?
    Mr. ROMAN. Yeah, the economic consequences of gun violence 
are almost overwhelming for a community. It is important to 
note that gun violence is heavily concentrated in very specific 
communities where it persists over time. And so, you have the 
cumulative trauma of being exposed to violence and then you 
have the cumulative economic disinvestment in those place, both 
by the public sector and the private sector, and that leads to 
really poor long-term outcomes for the residents, and then that 
reduces the tax rate to the local government, which reduces its 
ability to invest back into the place, and it becomes this 
terrible cycle.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. In your work on gun violence, what is the 
best strategy to reduce gun violence in an area?
    Mr. ROMAN. So the best strategies around gun violence focus 
on getting guns out of the hands of the most dangerous 
potential offenders. One area in particular that we have seen 
an increase in studies that have shown effectiveness is around 
emergency protective orders, around getting guns out of the 
hands of people who have been sort of red-flagged as being a 
risk in a domestic violence incident, particularly around the 
time when a woman leaves a difficult relationship, she has 
tremendously increased risk of being the victim of gun violence 
in these so-called ERPO or red flag laws can be a tremendous 
help getting guns out of the hands of domestic violence 
perpetrators.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
    Dr. Roman, there is often a disconnect between feelings 
about crime and the reality of crime trends. Would having an 
accurate real-time crime database available close that 
disconnect, and how can the federal government work on building 
that data infrastructure? It is just unimaginable for me to 
think that we could sit here and craft legislation that is not 
fact-based. What are the consequences, you know, to entire 
communities, and individuals, of us passing legislation that 
actually doesn't reflect the reality and is not founded on data 
that is reliable?
    Mr. ROMAN. Right. I--there has been a tremendous amount of 
research and there is a tremendous amount of evidence that can 
help guide policymakers, but it requires real-time, accurate, 
valid, reliable, objective data, and we don't get that now. And 
we need to build the justice data infrastructure to the same 
extent we have built public health data infrastructure.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentlelady yields back.
    And I now recognize Mr. Meuser from the great State of 
Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
    Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you all very 
much. Very difficult subject matter.
    What shouldn't be difficult is understanding what the 
problem is and how to address it. And if we need additional 
data, I think we are all interested in it. As this conversation 
was taking place, I was just looking at different trends from 
2022 to 2023 and we can blame it on COVID, but every piece of 
data I see is that smash and grabs, carjackings, assaults were 
up in 2023 versus 2022, with some exceptions.
    Now along with the lack of public safety and fear and 
issues that all of this creates here in D.C. and Philadelphia 
and Pittsburgh and elsewhere, you know, crime causes costs to 
go up, as you have mentioned, Mr. Scott, right? Obviously. So 
costs go up, profits go down, right? Less customers means less 
sales, less revenues. It is just the economic aspect of it. 
Less profits and less sales lead to less tax revenues.
    So instead of you making maybe $1 million dollars a year, 
now you are making $300,000 a year so your tax revenues are 
less. So all the cuts that are in fact, it is a fact, have been 
done to the police departments are lost. Those so-called 
savings are lost in the tax revenues of the businesses within 
the cities. And this is databased results. So, like, for 
instance, Washington, D.C is $100 million less today for 
funding its police than it was 4 years ago. $100 million, from 
636 to 536. Those are the numbers no matter where you look and 
where you Google and everything else, those are the numbers. I 
go to the local CVS down in the Navy Yard twice in the last 
year and a half, there was a smash and grab took place. And I 
had been in there maybe nine times. So, you know, 20 percent of 
the time I am witnessing smash and grabs.
    You are mentioning recruitment officer, that is just 
shameful, right? I mean, 6 years ago, what would you have, 20 
applications for those 30, for those five positions or three 
positions you said?
    Chief ROACH. We averaged anywhere between 40 to 50 
applications on a yearly basis for the Norwich Police 
Department. As I mentioned, we have five right now.
    Mr. MEUSER. Because they feel they are pushing against the 
ocean, because they are making the arrest and prosecutors are 
not prosecuting. And that is a fact as well.
    In Philadelphia, for instance, and in Washington, D.C., the 
prosecution rate for crime is under 30 percent for crimes, 
right? In San Diego and Miami, it is over 65 percent. And guess 
what, the crime in those cities is one-tenth that of similar-
size cities like Philadelphia, one-tenth. So there are answers 
to this.
    So let me just, I would like to just ask you as businesses 
owners, and Ms. Rez, I would like to just start with you and 
just go down the line. What would you like to see done in the 
communities' fight against crime, resources, police expanded, 
prosecutions, whatever it might be.
    Ms. REZ. Thank you for the question. So the laws are 
currently in place, they are not being executed properly. So we 
need our judicial partners to take advantage again of the 
legislation that are there in place to protect in this 
particular incident, Jewish-owned businesses that are being 
targeted, vandalized, harassed, so on and so forth.
    Mr. MEUSER. Thank you.
    And I am very aware of the situation. I am glad at least 
Governor Shapiro stood up and called it for what it was.
    Mr. Scott.
    Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Congressman.
    You know, I mentioned I am not a criminologist. However, in 
speaking with responding law officers, detectives, they all say 
the same thing, there are a number of criminals. The main 
problem is the same criminals keep doing the same crimes over 
and over.
    Mr. MEUSER. That is what I understand. They say in New 
York, it is really a group of about 6- to 700 which could be 
dealt with.
    Officer?
    Chief ROACH. I think it we allowed the judges to have 
discretion to set bail on individuals that were arraigned and 
arrested, that certainly would help.
    Mr. MEUSER. Thank you.
    And Mr. Roman?
    Mr. ROMAN. I mean, I think what we have here is a problem 
that we don't have the sufficient data to be able to answer the 
questions that are being posed by Members of this Committee to 
understand which kinds of shoplifters these small businesses 
are experiencing----
    Mr. MEUSER. They live in the real world. There is a saying, 
you don't need to be a weatherman to know which way the wind 
blows.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Ms. Gluesenkamp from the great State of 
Washington for 5 minutes.
    Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Thank you, Chairman Williams. And 
thank you to our panelists for being here today.
    So before being elected I owned an auto repair and machine 
shop. And, you know, we all have these little Member bathrooms 
as a Member here. On my medicine cabinet, I have a taped fake 
$100 bill that got past me when I was running the till at the 
shop. And, you know, just a good reminder, like, don't take 
fake money. And, you know, I guess I am--I did not report that 
to the police, right? The bank didn't report it to the police. 
And I think that what gives me heartburn is not so much the big 
guys that have the capital to institute more security measures 
and to prosecute and they have the lawyers, they have the 
connections. It kind of becomes a race to the bottom. And it is 
businesses like mine and yours, Mr. Scott, those are the ones 
that see this impact. And it is our employees are the ones they 
come after with a pipe or whatever. And it is a real human 
impact. And so, it is the little guys that get hurt first and 
worse. And so, I am concerned about the impact on small 
businesses and entrepreneurs.
    And I guess, Mr. Scott, as another business owner, what do 
you see as some of these driving factors?
    Mr. SCOTT. Congressman--Congresswoman, thank you for the 
question.
    When we talk about the driving factors, that may be beyond 
the scope of my skill set. I am a restaurant operator, not 
necessarily a sociologist. I go back to a previous question in 
that we oftentimes--actually in one restaurant we saw the same 
person come in three different times. Each time a little more 
threatening, each time until a third time actually breached an 
employee. So it is the employees on the front line that are 
bearing the brunt of this. I am sure there are many, many 
possible solutions to this. And they probably all need to be 
put into place. But first and foremost, we need to take steps 
to keep our team members safe at work and our guests safe when 
they come to the restaurants.
    Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Thank you.
    Dr. Roman, I would like your perspective. You are familiar 
with good arts law that like once something becomes a 
measurement, it becomes useless, because all the parties figure 
out how to game it to advance their own interests. You know, 
like in our case, like we are not going to report these kinds 
of crimes because no one's going to do anything. What is going 
to happen? I am going lose 5 hours of my life I am never going 
to get back. So I am wondering what we know about 
underreporting? What do we know about how in rural communities 
like mine, response time might factor in to underreporting? 
What are some of the solutions you see? And to my colleague, 
Mr. Meuser's point, like, sometimes it feels like all we do is 
study, study, study things. Like, when we see--I mean, what are 
the things we can do now?
    Mr. ROMAN. Right. So we know that underreporting we call it 
the dark figure of crime that if you look at the National Crime 
Victimization Survey and you ask people if they have been 
victimized you get a number that is far higher than the number 
that you get from the FBI which is crimes reported to the 
police, so we do know this. What we don't know----
    Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Do you have a scale of, like----
    Mr. ROMAN. So it varies a lot by the kind of crime, the 
more serious crime the more likely it is to be reported. So 
felonies are reported more often than misdemeanors. So things 
like shoplifting are underreported. And then it matters whether 
you can get compensated through your insurance company or not, 
right? So if somebody hits you, you can't, if your house is--
like you can, so you report it.
    The thing here is that when we talk about small business 
owners and the threats that they face, there is a whole bunch 
of different kinds of threats, and each one of them has 
different set of solutions. So there is theft along the supply 
chain where things are stolen on the way to the store. There is 
in-store employee theft, which is a big part of shrinkage. Then 
there is theft by opportunists and amateurs, people stealing 
diapers for their kids that they can't afford, then there is 
organized retail theft, they are criminal enterprises.
    And I think we all agree that we want the resources to go 
to those organized criminal enterprises, or even along the 
supply chain where you get the biggest bang, where you are 
really limited policing resources. So the better data isn't 
just a flag I would fly, but it actually will help us to make 
better choices and what kinds of policies and practices we 
implement.
    Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. Mr. Scott, in your day-to-day, is 
that what you feel like you'd like to see resources allocated 
towards?
    Mr. SCOTT. Well, the resources need to be allocated to 
crime prevention. I think, first and foremost, allocated to 
actually apprehending criminals and keeping them from coming 
back in.
    Ms. GLUESENKAMP PEREZ. The person that created a very 
convincing fake money in my Member bathroom.
    Thank you, Chairman Williams.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. And I now recognize 
Representative Van Duyne from the great State of Texas for her 
5 minutes.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    Two days ago House Republicans recognized law enforcement 
appreciation day. And we have passed multiple bills to show 
support and help law enforcement serve their community. 
Meanwhile, you have got local elected officials and rogue 
district attorneys who have taken the side of defunding and 
dismantling the police, causing skyrocketing violent crime 
across the country. We continue to see our police make arrests 
and then rogue D.A.s fail to prosecute criminals. And for those 
who were convicted, we must ensure that they are not receiving 
taxpayer benefits.
    Last year I introduced the Stop Funding Rioters Act which 
would make a person convicted of assaulting a law enforcement 
officer or a felony in connection with a riot that destroys a 
small business, ineligible for assistance or programs 
administered by the SBA. I look forward to seeing it marked up 
and passed in the House. And anyone who activity destroys a 
small business should not be allowed to receive funding from 
the SBA.
    I am listening to all of this information that is spewing 
out right now and talking about, like, the data and how we have 
to look at the data and the stats. For an example, one out of 
four women have been sexually assaulted. I guarantee you that 
has not been reported. I am really happy that we have not based 
our policies or just looking at the data, considering if you 
don't like the game, you can change the definition, you can 
change the rules, because that is what we have seen. People 
don't like the crime stats going up so what you are doing is 
you are changing the definition of the crime.
    You know, when you say a third assault, sexual assault is 
not considered a violent crime? Somebody getting punched in the 
nose is not considered a violent crime? I am sorry, but that 
seems pretty common sense. We are changing the definitions, 
because we don't like where the data is going. So we are going 
to change it until we get where we like.
    There are no consequences right now. In Dallas County, we 
had some riots a few years ago. I talked to the DPS, I talked 
to people who were out there in the streets that were looking 
at businesses that were being destroyed. They were looking at 
cars that were being set afire. They looked at people that were 
being assaulted. They risked their lives, they got out. These 
were police officers. These were Department of Public Safety 
officers. They got out of their cars, they were trying to save 
people's lives. They risk their own lives because they had 
bricks, they had water bottles, they had rocks thrown at them. 
They were attacked. The very next day, our Dallas D.A. let them 
all out. Those people who had been arrested, let them all out 
because there is absolutely no consequences.
    When we talk about stats I am going to ask you, Mr. Scott, 
have you ever been, or any of your facilities, businesses, have 
you ever had something that you could have reported to the 
police but because it was so onerous you didn't?
    Mr. SCOTT. Congresswoman, thank you for that question. The 
answer is absolutely yes. The time it takes to report 
incidences that will not get a response is better spent 
cleaning up whatever happened and moving on.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. So it doesn't mean that the crime didn't 
happen. It just means that we have made it so difficult to 
report it. And, because the odds are, one, they are not going 
to be caught; two, the police right now are so thin that 
actually even following up on it is going to be difficult, you 
would just rather get on with your life.
    Mr. SCOTT. Absolutely. It is time-consuming. The same 
thing, Congresswoman, happens with insurance claims. Just 
insurance, it gets to the point where it is not worth filing a 
claim because the deductibles are so high.
    So it just kind of gets, quite literally, swept up and then 
you move on. We have businesses to run, and this is very 
distracting.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. And I appreciate that answer.
    Mr. Roach, I am going to ask you a question. I mean, you 
see this every day. And I am from upstate New York originally, 
right? I mean, I always say I am a New Yorker by birth, but I 
am a Texan by choice. There is a reason why I moved out of your 
State, and it wasn't just the weather.
    Tell me what you are seeing up in New York. What could make 
it better? What are the policies that you think like, for 
example, holding criminals accountable for their actions, 
having consequences? Again, it seems like common sense that, if 
they can commit these crimes with no consequences, people are 
going to commit crimes. What are you seeing?
    Chief ROACH. Yeah. Prior to bail reform, I made a mention 
in my opening speech, when we would do a drug raid or if we 
would execute a search warrant on a drug house, we would arrest 
the individuals responsible for that. We would take them to 
court. We would arraign them. And, typically, bail would be 
anywhere from $10,000 to $25,000.
    As it stands now, when we execute a search warrant on a 
drug house, we bring the individuals back. We fingerprint them, 
and then we give them a piece of paper and tell them to go to 
court 2 weeks later. And, if they don't show up to court, they 
get three tries before they issue a warrant. So, yeah, it is 
very time-consuming and disheartening, to say the least.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. Are you seeing these people show up to 
court? Are you seeing these people come back out and commit 
more crimes?
    Chief ROACH. Absolutely, yes.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. All right. I yield back. Thank you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Representative Scholten 
from the great State of Michigan for her 5 minutes.
    Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. It is a great 
State. Go Blue this week.
    And we hope to keep it a great State, which is why I am so 
thankful to the Chair and the Committee Members for hosting 
this very, very important meeting today.
    Crime and violence against small businesses defy the core 
tenets of economic freedom and empowerment our country and our 
economy is built on. Sadly, retail theft is proving to be a 
lucrative crime enterprise and emboldens bad actors throughout 
the country to use force and fear to defraud hardworking 
Americans. To that end, it is incumbent on us to examine 
policies and federal actions that would complement the efforts 
of our State and local partners to foster safe communities for 
business owners, employees, and their customers.
    In my home State of Michigan, organized retail crime has 
been prosecuted as a felony under the State's racketeering 
statute for over a decade. While this represents a step in the 
right direction, in 2021, Michigan businesses lost nearly $3.3 
billion from retail crimes perpetrated both by serial 
shoplifters and organized retail crime rings capitalizing on a 
society paralyzed by a pandemic. Clearly, more must be done.
    My first question is for you, Dr. Roman: In your testimony, 
you attribute the radical changes in crime and violence over 
the last 4 years to the pandemic. In addition to strengthening 
our national criminal justice data infrastructure, what 
strategies are law enforcement using to deter theft and 
violence in the first place and equip authorities with the 
necessary resources to arrest those who liquidate the stolen 
goods? What are some of those efforts that this committee 
should be aware of?
    Mr. ROMAN. Yes. So I think what we learned in the last 
couple of decades fighting the war on drugs, we can apply those 
lessons here. A lot of what we did was ineffective, but some 
things were. Focusing at the top of the food chain of these 
organized criminal enterprises is by far the most effective 
strategy. And that is both on supplying the thieves who go into 
the store and on fencing the merchandise that comes out. And we 
don't focus very much on that.
    If you look at the FBI statistics on receipt of stolen 
property as a category that people are being charged with, 
nobody is. So there is very little focus on that side of the 
ledger and much more could be done to interrupt organized 
criminal enterprises on both sides, both doing the sort of task 
force approach that you talked about, identify the leadership, 
and then working to prevent the merchandise from being resold 
or taken somewhere else.
    Ms. SCHOLTEN. Okay. Thank you.
    Question number two: During the COVID-19 pandemic, violence 
against small businesses reached communities who previously 
experienced little to no crime. Since then, the spread and 
volatility of crime has been compounded by the gun violence 
epidemic.
    Dr. Roman, you noted that Americans' perception of their 
risk of victimization is rapidly increasing. Despite certain 
crime rates stabilizing or outright dropping, how can we 
measure the lasting effect in overall cost of gun violence in 
particular to small businesses, and what can business owners do 
to mitigate those costs?
    Mr. ROMAN. So gun violence is a problem that is 
concentrated in specific American communities, some urban but 
some suburban and even some rural, and it tends to persist in 
those places, and it creates a sort of perpetual cycle of 
accumulated disadvantaged.
    Those place are underinvested, both by private sector and 
by public sector. And then they don't then have the capital and 
the resources to build and grow and create a broader tax base, 
which then allows the government to create more infrastructure 
to create prosperity.
    So organizing to ask that policymakers and the police focus 
their efforts, again, at the top of these criminal pyramids to 
try and disrupt organized gangs, organized theft enterprises, 
organized drug dealing, is the way to begin to break the cycle 
and help support these small business owners and the rest of 
the Members of these communities.
    Ms. SCHOLTEN. Thank you so much. One last quick question, 
and this is for any of the witnesses. I want to talk about 
infrastructure investments.
    What would help authorities get ahead and stay ahead of 
individuals committing retail fraud over the internet, 
particularly thinking about online infrastructure? How can this 
committee leverage AI, among other resources, to create that 
infrastructure?
    I know we are running out of time here so if anyone has 
thoughts they want to submit for the record, we would gladly 
take those, leading on initiatives on AI and small business and 
also the Ranking Member on infrastructure and government 
contracting here, so very, very important.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you.
    I now recognize Representative Maloy from the great State 
of Utah for her questions.
    Ms. MALOY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do represent the 
Second District in Utah, and we love small businesses in Utah. 
The stats that the State gave me are that 99 percent of our 
businesses are classified as small businesses, and they employ 
45 percent of the employees in Utah.
    And I have talked to a lot of small business owners. They 
are already facing inflation, and it is tough to run and keep a 
small business running. And now I am sitting here listening to 
you all tell me that small businesses are facing religious 
targeting and abuse of your employees and fear of reporting 
crimes because of insurance rates and the hassle, and that 
repeat offenders are coming into your businesses and making 
them harder to run.
    So I just want to start with an apology. I am sorry that 
Jewish businesses are facing anti-Semitism. In a country that 
values religious freedom, that should not be a problem. And I 
know my apology doesn't fix the problem, but I think it is 
important to acknowledge.
    In southern Utah in part of my district, law enforcement is 
telling me that because we have Interstate 15 that runs from 
Mexico to Canada, we have a lot of what I would call transient 
crime, people who are coming to our town specifically to commit 
these kind of retail crimes and then leave because they assume 
that we are not sophisticated enough to handle this crime.
    And, in Utah, the State partnered with businesses to form 
the Crimes Against State Economy task force, so CASE task 
force. And they have had some success, including decreases in 
online retail theft. So I am happy to see that the State is 
getting innovative and finding ways to address this, and I just 
want to ask the entire panel the same question.
    We are the federal government. We don't move as quickly or 
as nimbly as States do and sometimes it is better for us to 
just stay out of something. But is there anything we could do 
at the federal level that is innovative and new that would help 
small businesses or law enforcement address these problems more 
effectively?
    Because what I am hearing from the questions on this panel 
is that we have agreement on both sides of the aisle that this 
is a problem, and we need to address it. And when we at least 
agree on what the problem is, that creates an opportunity.
    So what, in each of your opinions, can we do from the 
federal level, either legislation or policy-wise, to help 
address these issues? And start here with Ms. Rez.
    Ms. REZ. It is crucial that Members use their oversight 
power to ensure that existing laws are enforced and issues--or 
issuing statements of support, such as you just verbally did, 
and it is very much appreciated. Thank you, Congresswoman 
Maloy. It is crucial. Constituents want to hear it. We need to 
hear it. The support is a must.
    Ms. MALOY. Thank you.
    Mr. Scott.
    Mr. SCOTT. Congresswoman, thank you for the question. I 
think the number one thing that could be done at the federal 
level is to address recidivism. We have noticed, as small 
business owners, that we see sometimes when the police officers 
respond, and they know by name the person that perhaps they 
have acquired, because this is the third time they have met 
them that week and in one case the second time they met them 
that night, it says that perhaps there is a problem with the 
people that are doing the crimes need to be held responsible. 
And addressing recidivism would go a long way toward keeping 
these repeat crimes from happening. Thank you.
    Ms. MALOY. Thank you.
    Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congresswoman. Continued support. 
We work closely with our federal counterparts, the FBI, the 
DEA, the Secret Service, Homeland Security.
    Additionally, the Norwich Police Department applied to the 
COPS grant, which is a federal grant for community-oriented 
policing. We were awarded that grant, which over a period of 
time was a significant amount of money for a 3-year period to 
hire a new police officer. So things like that do help, and I 
am hoping that it continues.
    Ms. MALOY. Thank you.
    Mr. ROMAN. There are 18,600 local law enforcement agencies 
in the United States, which is an incredibly--I am sorry.
    There is 18,600 local law enforcement agencies in the 
United States. We have an incredibly fractured and distributed 
law enforcement system, and the only way to move beyond hearing 
a story and trying to act on it to actually understanding the 
nature and the scope of the problem is to create more 
infrastructure at the federal level to assist local policing 
authorities in collecting data that they can then use locally 
to target their resources more effectively and efficiently, but 
then also to contribute to our understanding of city/regional/
State-level changes in patterns and scope and type of offending 
so we can respond more quickly and more inexpensively.
    Ms. MALOY. Thank you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. I now recognize Representative Mfume 
from the great State of Maryland for his 5 minutes.
    Mr. MFUME. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much.
    I want to thank our witnesses for being here today, and I 
want to thank the Ranking Member who worked with you to pull 
this together.
    I, Mr. Chairman, am still trying to get my arm around what 
we can do. And so I have been listening, and I wanted to 
comment on a few things that I heard, because the hearing topic 
is ``Crime on the Rise: How Lawlessness is Affecting Main 
Street America.'' And I think it is fair to say that most of us 
already know the answer to that.
    It is having and has had a very negative long-term impact 
on Main Street America, and it will continue to do so unless 
there are some very real definitive and measurable things that 
take place.
    So, you know, I am wrestling with this, the title here, but 
I understand there is a real opportunity, Mr. Chairman, which 
is why I was thanking you earlier, to have this discussion and 
to have people here who, in their own particular way and area 
of expertise, can lend some credibility to what we are trying 
to do by giving us real answers based on real experiences.
    I did hear just now that we could do better oversight of 
the law as one way of dealing with this. And regrettably--
regrettably--so much of the law, as the gentlewoman from Texas 
mentioned earlier, is really law that emanates, finds its 
genesis, and is operational at a State level.
    States, local DAs in cities, towns and hamlets and other 
places really have to be at the table. In fact, I wish the 
representative organizations of each were here today because 
that is where the meat of this is going to be found, and that 
is where we are going to find real effort.
    I mean, we sit here. It is a great committee to be on. But, 
at the end of the day, on this particular issue it is very 
difficult for the government of the United States at a federal 
level to bring about instant change. However, again, States, 
local municipalities, and DAs on local levels can, in fact, 
enforce the law. That is really, really important.
    And then I heard a good suggestion, which we can deal with 
at our level, and that is this whole idea of dealing with 
recidivism. Someone said earlier, when I got into the hearing 
that, yeah, there is a lot of crime, but the criminals are the 
criminals are the criminals. It is usually the same club, the 
same group. And so that is why recidivism is so very high.
    And I think, from a legislative perspective, as we move 
forward on crime initiatives, perhaps it is important in the 
language and an instruction to make sure that a part of that 
attaches itself to recidivism rates and whatever we are trying 
to do calls attention back to the fact that there has to be 
measurable achievements in recidivism before we are prepared to 
issue whatever we do, whether it is money or expertise or 
anything else.
    The other thing I do want to just briefly touch on--and, by 
the way, it is not just the regular crime. It is bail reform, 
all the other things, the crime laws that are operational at a 
State and local level that, in my opinion, are not being 
enforced the way they could or should.
    This notion of retail crime--I shouldn't say this notion. 
It is a reality. But let's talk about that for just a moment 
because I was concerned also about what seems to be an out-of-
control situation, whether it is the smash and grab, whether it 
is, as Dr. Roman said, the organized efforts, whether it is 
somebody who is working in a store that decides to do 
something, to take something, whether it is somebody who is 
just trying to feed their child and steals diapers. All of 
those things in the aggregate, particularly the organized 
effort, is something that concerns all of us, I hope.
    So I was equally concerned 8 weeks ago, 4 weeks ago, when I 
read that the National Retail Federation, which scared the 
daylights out of most Americans, in their report said that the 
retail theft had reached $94 billion in this country, a gross 
overstatement.
    And I wanted to know why, but someone beat me to the punch, 
and that was an investigative reporter at the San Francisco 
Chronicle, who pointed out the fact that this was really an 
overreach, and then every study after that in the last 4 weeks 
has confirmed it, so much so that the National Retail 
Federation had to retract its estimate and to admit that it was 
woefully inadequate and completely blown out of control.
    And so I am trying to figure, okay, so if the National 
Federation does that, what are they trying to achieve? And what 
they have achieved is with stores now deciding to close in 
communities because they say the cost of business is too high. 
And those communities are left on their own.
    I hear the Chairman tapping the gavel, so I am going to 
yield, but I will remain open, Mr. Chair, to any suggestions 
that any of you have that we ought to pursue on a national 
level to get us to where we all want to be.
    I yield back. Thank you, sir.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields.
    I now want to represent Representative Stauber from the 
great State of Minnesota for his 5 minutes.
    Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, Chairman Williams and Ranking 
Member Velazquez, for your holding this hearing today. And 
thank you to our witnesses for taking time away from their busy 
schedules to help shed light on this important topic.
    Violent crime in America continues to be an issue following 
the end of the pandemic. Last year, in my hometown of Duluth, 
Minnesota, there was a 46 percent increase in incidents of 
shots fired. Duluth has only a 1 percent higher crime rate than 
the national average. With numbers like that, it is no surprise 
violent crime continues to be rampant in cities like 
Washington, D.C.; Minneapolis; New York; Chicago; and so many 
others.
    As a former police officer, having served my community for 
over two decades, 23 years to be exact, as well as a victim of 
two violent gun crimes, the rise in violent crime and lack of 
support for our police officers is a dire concern.
    However, with that said, I am so grateful for the chance to 
serve in Congress and stand in defense of my brothers and 
sisters in blue while fighting to keep our communities safe. 
Ending the crime crisis should not be a partisan issue but, 
unfortunately, it seems that it is. As most Americans witnessed 
on their televisions and phones, the start of the Defund the 
Police movement took place in my home State of Minnesota.
    Unfortunately, the repercussions of that movement caused 
many democratically run States and cities to turn against the 
very individuals hired to protect their communities. Across the 
country, we saw crime rates skyrocket. When cities profoundly 
announced they were defunding the police, homicides, car 
jackings and robberies and assaults all went up. The Defund the 
Police movement will take years to reverse the negative effects 
it has had on the safety of our communities and on police 
recruitment, retention, and morale.
    Following the pandemic, as businesses reopened, they had 
additional obstacles to fight with, from supply chain and 
workforce issues, the rising inflation rates through Bidenomics 
to large-scale theft and violence. If not for relaxed Democrat 
policies on crime, our communities would be safer.
    Business owners across the country noticed a difference in 
policing as in many instances police officers have been 
prevented from doing their jobs when it comes to pursuing 
fleeing suspected criminals. Many cities even raised the 
threshold for certain violent crimes, in some instances 
releasing offenders--violent offenders--k into our communities 
the very same day immediately after given a citation.
    Chief Roach, across the country in 2020, there were many 
Democrat lawmakers calling to Defund the Police, knowing that 
some elected officials are supporting them. How has it affected 
recruitment and retention of officers, in your opinion, not 
only in your department but across the country?
    Chief ROACH. It is a tough question, and it is a question 
that needs to be answered. Morale is very low amongst the 
police ranks. The demonization of police officers for the last 
couple of years has driven recruitment to the lowest it has 
ever been since I have been a police officer, anyway.
    I know the officers at times feel as if they are going 
against the grain, that everything that they do is for naught. 
And I think through continued support and turning the ship is 
the only way to get past this, I think.
    Mr. STAUBER. From your perspective, what types of policies 
would help protect our small businesses and our communities?
    Chief ROACH. I harken back to the fact that I think that 
our judges should have the discretion to set bail in just every 
situation, really. We should be able to take individuals for 
arraignment on the same day they are arrested. Prior to bail 
reform, we could do that and the judge would make a 
determination. These are bar-certified judges. They are 
capable, they are intelligent, and they should have that power 
to do that.
    Mr. STAUBER. A couple things, Chief. Do you think that we 
should all look at, as a nation, go back to looking at the 
broken windows theory?
    Chief ROACH. I think there is some benefit to that, yes.
    Mr. STAUBER. How about community policing? And so tell me 
if you agree with this: My definition of community policing is 
you don't police your community, you police with your 
community. Do you agree with that definition?
    Chief ROACH. I do I think it was Sir Robert Peel that said, 
the police are the people and the people are the police. We 
have to be part of the community, and we have to show support 
for the community but also enforce the laws.
    Mr. STAUBER. I agree with you. And, Chief, thank you for 
your service.
    Chief ROACH. Thank you.
    Mr. STAUBER. Mr. Scott, in your testimony you listed a 
number of offenses against your business. With the rise in 
crime, what measures have you taken to protect yourself and 
your staff?
    Mr. SCOTT. Congressman, thank you for the question. We have 
taken a number of measures. We have robust security systems in 
place. We do multiple levels of training on how to respond to a 
crime. We provide a counselor made available not through an 
insurance company but by ourselves at our expense for any of 
our employees that have been crime victims.
    Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much. I am getting gaveled out. 
And it cost you money too, didn't it?
    Mr. SCOTT. Yes, sir, substantial money.
    Mr. STAUBER. And I yield back. Thank you.
    The WILLIAMS. Thank you.
    I now recognize Representative Thanedar from the great 
State of Michigan for 5 minutes.
    Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you, Chairman. And thank you for 
hosting this hearing. I certainly appreciate your expertise, 
all of the witnesses, and your comments in educating us on this 
important issue.
    You know, back in 1990, I started my business. It was a 
three-person business, and we dealt with pharmaceutical 
testing. And, as a result of a need of my business, I had to 
have controlled substances on my premises. It was a DEA-
approved facility. And the danger always was because people 
knew we had such controlled substances in our facility created 
a special danger to not only my business but also my employees.
    And, being a three-person business, my annual revenues were 
like $150,000, and we didn't have a lot of resources to be able 
to put the safeguards and the protection that we needed for the 
business or for my employees.
    And so one of my questions--and any one of you can answer--
is what can the federal government do to help little businesses 
like this, in terms of protecting their employees and their 
facilities and their equipment?
    Ms. REZ. I will be happy to answer that. Thank you.
    Currently, there are federal grants in place where, for 
instance, Jewish-owned businesses can apply for. There is so 
much red tape, paper requirements that just absorb so much time 
that so many Jewish organizations, Jewish businesses throw up 
their hands out of frustration and say, ``It is just not worth 
it.'' So, if we can expedite the process, make it more 
streamlined, this would be enormously beneficial.
    Mr. THANEDAR. Agree, absolutely, because the small 
businesses don't even have the resources to be able to go 
through, you know, pages and pages on a website and filling all 
that information. Sometimes it could take, you know, hours or 
days to get that done. And you throw up your hands and say, ``I 
would rather not deal with that.'' And so that certainly we can 
do.
    Then my business later on grew much bigger, and we were 
able to afford the kind of security that we needed to protect 
my employees.
    The other question is, certainly law enforcement, I do see 
a lot of struggle in terms of retention. Certainly, the morale 
is low, and they don't have access often I see in terms of 
mental health.
    A lot of these issues also deal with--alongside the crime, 
there are also mental health issues that need to be dealt with, 
and often the law enforcement does not have sufficient 
resources in that aspect. And so their response is not complete 
without a partner that specializes in mental health issues to 
deal with on those issues. So I want to address--I hope you can 
address some of that.
    And also, in the end, I want to really come back to the 
fundamental issue. How does systemic racism, how does poverty 
affect all this, and is there something we could do at the base 
fundamental level to change and make things safer?
    Mr. ROMAN. If I could say a word about both of those 
things. So, on the issue of law enforcement, the International 
Association of Crime Analysts recommends that there is one 
crime analyst for every 200 officers. We spend a lot of time 
thinking about boots on the ground, but to your question, 
Representative Mfume, about what we can do, we can support 
investment in the analytic support for officers so that their 
time is spent best. We do very little of that compared to how 
much we support boots on the ground in the military.
    To your other question, the other hat that I am wearing 
today is as the co-director of the National Prevention Science 
Coalition. And we would strongly advocate that much of the 
crime problem that we face today is the result of 
underinvestment that happened a generation ago, in terms of how 
we do child support and maternal support and adolescent 
development and strengthen schools and child protective 
services and public health and throughout the educational 
system.
    So what we are investing in today in prevention is what is 
going to determine whether we are having this hearing again in 
20 years.
    Mr. THANEDAR. Thank you. And I am out of time, Chairman.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Representative Alford from Missouri, the 
great State of Missouri, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. ALFORD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you, Ranking Member Velazquez.
    This is an important hearing that we are having today, 
because it touches everyone in America. I don't care if you are 
in the Fourth District and you are in a small town or you are 
in Kansas City, St. Louis.
    Thank you to our witnesses. I know you come here on your 
own dime and own time, and we really appreciate that. Look, we 
all know our nation's small businesses are suffering because of 
the administration's policies on crime and being soft on crime.
    In a recent study, 90 percent of small businesses stated 
that they have been a victim of a crime in the last year. 
Eighty-three percent say that crime is at least a somewhat 
major issue for their business.
    Democrat policies have hamstrung police from doing their 
job, and cashless bail and the failure to prosecute repeat 
offenders has really exacerbated this crisis. The crime is 
negatively impacting our country, including my home State of 
Missouri.
    Late last year, a small business in Missouri, Osage County 
Guns, was a victim of a crash-and-grab. A group of thieves 
crashed a stolen car through their very front door, causing 
$200,000 worth of damage and stealing $28,000 worth of 
merchandise.
    Crimes like this targeting small businesses are hurting 
ordinary Missourians on all levels. According to a recent 
survey by the Missouri Chamber of Commerce, 7 out of 10 
business leaders say that the rising crime rate is impacting 
Missouri's economic competitiveness.
    I had the chance to visit with Missouri Chamber of Commerce 
President Dan Mehan recently. He said, to my surprise, crime is 
the number one issue facing businesses in Missouri, not just 
St. Louis and Kansas City but all Missouri.
    I am also concerned about the increase in crime against the 
Jewish community. Following the October 7, 2023, attack on 
Israel, targeted crime against Jewish people and businesses in 
the U.S. dramatically rose by 400 percent. We have to restore 
law and order in our country. When the lawlessness is 
tolerated, it will continue to fester and grow.
    So let's get to the questions. First off, Mr. Scott, 
considering that an overwhelming number of small businesses is 
impacted by the crime crisis, how has your business 
specifically been affected by this?
    Mr. SCOTT. Congressman, thank you for the question. And, 
being Missouri born and raised, I appreciate having you here.
    Mr. ALFORD. Thank you.
    Mr. SCOTT. The crime crisis affects both the guests and the 
employees. The guests feel less safe, knowing that perhaps 
their car will get broken into or perhaps something will happen 
to them on their way to or from the restaurant or actually in 
the restaurant parking lot itself.
    Employees feel less safe, knowing that perhaps my car will 
get broken into or will somebody come in that gets angry about 
the fact that we burnt their toast and will do something rash 
or something violent.
    So it makes everybody feel less safe. It, quite frankly, is 
scary. They have not just maybe a loss of hours for employees 
but also, most importantly, loss of peace of mind.
    Mr. ALFORD. How much does that cost your business?
    Mr. SCOTT. Well, one example would be our restaurant in 
Tacoma, Washington, where it is now costing us $80,000 per 
year, which is 40 percent of our profit of that restaurant, 
which was the profit of the restaurant, to provide additional 
security in order to make the team and the guests feel safe.
    Mr. ALFORD. Thank you.
    Next question for Chief Roach: I want to delve into a 
little bit about the bail reform. There was an article in the 
New York Post January 22nd of last year talking about George 
Soros spending $40 million to get Progressive prosecutors 
elected. We have seen that in Missouri as well.
    What role has that played in changing the way that we deal 
with criminals, letting them out on the streets to repeat their 
crimes, to terrorize the American public?
    Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congressman. Yeah. We have a great 
district attorney in our county, Michael Ferrarese. He is very 
pro-police, and he does what he can. But that being said, we do 
see the effects of bail reform, and they are not good. We see 
arrest after arrest after arrest of the same individuals. Just 
about in 80 percent of our cases I would say, the individuals 
we arrest we are arresting five or six times before they ever 
even go to court.
    Mr. ALFORD. Do you see the end in sight for that?
    Chief ROACH. I am hopeful, but I don't see it right now.
    Mr. ALFORD. Thank you.
    Thank you once again to our witnesses.
    I am almost out of time, and I yield back. Thank you, 
Chairman.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Representative McGarvey from the great 
State of Kentucky for 5 minutes.
    Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I will start off by echoing the opening statement that Mr. 
Alford said. You know, we do work here because what happens in 
small businesses across this country is happening in every 
district. It is why we come together and talk about these 
problems, how to make sure our small businesses are thriving. 
They continue to be the backbone of the American economy.
    We are talking about main street today. In fact, the title 
of today's hearing is ``Crime on the Rise: How Lawlessness is 
Affecting Main Street America.'' So I want to talk to you about 
my district in Louisville, Kentucky. On our literal main 
street, in main street downtown Louisville, Kentucky, USA, we 
have an Old National Bank branch. Old National Bank, a local 
bank, local people who work there lend to local businesses.
    On Monday morning, April 10th of last year, the morning 
after Easter, our community was rocked when an employee walked 
in and shot 14 people, killing five of them, including a police 
officer who miraculously survived an AR-15 round to the head.
    The young man who did this was under psychiatric care, but 
still, 6 days before the shooting, he was able to walk into a 
store and purchase an AR-15 and all the ammunition he needed in 
under an hour.
    See, we are talking about crime, but we can't talk about 
crime and not talk about guns. Gun deaths and injuries cost 
Kentucky $9.6 billion each year, each year. $183.4 million is 
paid directly by the taxpayers. The Chamber of Commerce says 
that larceny cost Kentucky $1.5 billion last year. Not great, 
but it is not 9.6.
    See, gun violence, it pervades every aspect of our lives. 
It is unthinkable that we are talking about this with gun 
violence in schools and small businesses in rural America, in 
urban America. In 2024, in the U.S., there have already been 
1,137 gun violence-related deaths and seven mass shootings. You 
guys, we are 11 days into 2024, and there have been seven mass 
shootings.
    Gun violence we know is bad for our communities. It is bad 
for families. It is bad for kids, it is bad for everyone 
impacted. We know the emotional toll. Today's focus highlights 
the economic impact. And yes, it is bad for business, but 
luckily we can do something about it.
    We can have an assault weapons ban. We can have waiting 
periods. We can have extreme risk protection orders or red flag 
laws. We can actually have background checks, safe storage 
requirements, magazine limits. These are things we can do in 
the United States Congress that will help prevent crime and gun 
violence deaths.
    Just this past November, 216 of my colleagues on the other 
side of the aisle voted to prohibit funding for the CDC's 
firearm injury and mortality prevention research. We can do 
something, guys. And we must, because it is impacting all of 
our communities and all of our small businesses.
    Dr. Roman, I want to ask you, because I understand your 
research focuses on using data to better fight gun violence. 
With that vote against the CDC, how does prohibiting funding 
from critical research agencies that collect gun violence data 
make the gun violence epidemic better or worse?
    Mr. ROMAN. Yeah. I appreciate the question, thank you for 
asking it because what we want to do is to make data available 
to allow policymakers to make evidence-based, data-driven 
decisions, including all the other considerations that you 
have.
    So, for example, when you talk about trying to keep the 
hands out of the young man who committed this atrocity in 
Louisville, if you look at the data that California gets in 
terms of access to people who have been detained in a mental 
health facility, that would go into their data systems. The 
federally licensed firearm dealers would know that this person 
had been in that system and was not allowed to purchase a 
weapon.
    In most States around the country, those data exchanges do 
not take place. That data is not kept. It is not transmitted. 
They do not know that this person is prohibited from buying a 
weapon because the data are insufficient to do that.
    Mr. MCGARVEY. Thank you.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Representative Molinaro from the great 
state of New York for 5 minutes.
    Mr. MOLINARO. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the 
opportunity to speak this afternoon and certainly to have from 
Norwich, New York, Chief Reuben Roach, who has led that 
department during a real transition in criminal justice policy 
in the State of New York.
    And so let's be very clear. It is without question that 
small businesses are cynical, and they have lost faith in their 
elected officials. Certainly, that couldn't be any more true 
than in the State of New York where, overall, 83 percent of 
small business owners believe that crime is a major issue, and 
they have lost faith in their elected leaders.
    I would offer out loud two things. Having spent the last 20 
years in local government, where some of my colleagues know, in 
my home county we led a transformational effort in criminal 
justice prior to New York's disastrous cashless bail policy, 
where we saw a 50-percent reduction in violent crime and a 40-
percent reduction in inmate population. Why? Because we were 
given the tools to invest early. Chief Roach knows this. He has 
implemented these tools. And cashless bail was eliminated.
    The other thing I would offer out loud, because I am very 
keenly aware of the data. I would suggest that, when a State 
like New York chooses not to input data, that data can't be 
analyzed correctly. In fact, the State decided for 12 months to 
delay the inputting of criminal justice data, so that local 
elected officials and prosecutors had no such capacity to even 
know how to respond.
    And, secondly, while data may not lie, the people who input 
the data do. And, with all due respect to all my colleagues and 
to the witnesses, I just would offer out loud that, when you 
want a certain outcome, policymakers and elected officials and 
administrators, in particular in my home State, can choose what 
data is or is not collected for a certain outcome.
    Chief Roach, could you speak specifically to the impact 
that you have experienced and our small businesses have 
experienced, at least in upstate State of New York, first prior 
to cashless bail, during cashless bail, and then post-cashless 
bail implementation.
    Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congressman. Yeah. So our local 
business owners, 40 of them created a coalition. They meet 
weekly or biweekly at the Commerce Board. And they are lobbying 
heavily with the Common Council to create nuisance laws to try 
to correct this problem with bail reform and the loitering and 
the drug use and the damage it is doing to their businesses.
    A lot of them say we need something with teeth. And it is 
unfortunate that it has to be a criminal nuisance legislation 
at the Common Council level, because there probably won't be a 
lot of teeth in that, unfortunately. It will be a ticket, which 
is a fine essentially, and potentially down the road, quite a 
long ways down the road, potentially jail time. But that 
doesn't fix the problem that they are facing every day as they 
are losing business and losing customers.
    Mr. MOLINARO. So what you are experiencing in the State of 
New York, to be clear a bit, right, is that because State law 
prohibits the ability for law enforcement to intervene early in 
lesser offenses, the City Council is being asked to intervene 
with its own city ordinance, in the hopes that you can enforce 
that.
    Chief ROACH. That is correct.
    Mr. MOLINARO. Have you experienced over your years of 
service the State of New York enjoying local government's 
establishing their own local laws?
    Chief ROACH. When they are court tested, these local laws, 
usually when they are court tested they don't usually stand.
    Mr. MOLINARO. In the State of New York, when it comes to 
collecting fines that you might use to implement alternatives 
to incarceration and other intervention tools, does the State 
of New York allow you to keep those fines, or does the State of 
New York keep the money and simply return some portion of it to 
the city?
    Chief ROACH. I believe it is a small portion returned.
    Mr. MOLINARO. Yes. And so, over the course of the last 
several years, in particular with the implementation of 
cashless bail, have you also seen local prosecutors attempting 
to link up with federal prosecutors, because federal law may be 
a bit more stringent and applicable to a case where New York 
State law has failed?
    Chief ROACH. Certainly, yes, oftentimes our district 
attorney will work with the Syracuse Federal Building attorneys 
to make that happen.
    Mr. MOLINARO. So, in all instances, has this made your job 
easier or more difficult?
    Chief ROACH. More difficult.
    Mr. MOLINARO. Has this resulted in less or more instances 
of reportable or unreportable crimes?
    Chief ROACH. More crimes.
    Mr. MOLINARO. And has this provided a degree of confidence 
or lack of confidence among the community as it relates to the 
ability to enforce the law?
    Chief ROACH. It was mentioned earlier a lot of folks don't 
even call the police department anymore.
    Mr. MOLINARO. Yeah. And I will close, Mr. Chairman, in that 
regard. To suggest that crime is on the decline because it 
hasn't been reported is to suggest that ordinary law-abiding 
citizens, small businesses have a degree of confidence and 
therefore are reporting those things that they think should be 
intervened by law enforcement. That isn't occurring.
    Just, by the way, as individuals who have a lifetime to 
make poor decisions, those who have criminal backgrounds are 
making decisions to circumvent the existing law so that they 
can engage in activity and not be reported. I have seen it 
consistently.
    The best tool is to empower main street, small communities, 
local elected officials and local criminal justice systems to 
intervene early to prevent long-term and unsustainable rates of 
crime.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Representative Landsman from the great 
State of Ohio for 5 minutes.
    Mr. LANDSMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    And thank you all for your testimony and just being with us 
today. I am a big believer in the importance of public safety 
and investing in public safety, was at City Hall in Cincinnati 
before I came here. And, over the course of the 5 years at City 
Hall, we invested an additional $20 million in our police 
department.
    We struggled in the last year to recruit, and we had two 
recruit classes. The first one, we weren't able to fill every 
one of the positions. The second one, we offered a bonus, 
recruitment bonus, and we were able to fill all 50 slots.
    And this is for Chief Roach: The issue of recruitment and 
retention is a huge one. You mentioned it, and I was really 
glad you mentioned it. There is a bipartisan bill to allow for 
the COPS grant to just provide the flexibility so that 
municipalities like yours could use those dollars not just for 
base salary but for retention and recruitment. I wanted to get 
your quick thoughts on that.
    Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congressman. Yes. The COPS grant is 
a wonderful thing. It is a great thing for a small community 
like Norwich. It affords us the opportunity, as I mentioned 
earlier, to hire a new police officer, dedicate more officers 
into the downtown district, foot patrol, community relations, 
going to centers like the YMCA to interact with the youth. So, 
yeah, that is a great grant to have, and we are very thankful 
for it.
    Mr. LANDSMAN. And being able to give you--giving you all 
the flexibility to use it for base salary but also for bonuses 
for recruitment and retention, a positive thing, right?
    Chief ROACH. That is a positive thing. I am not familiar 
with the bonuses.
    Mr. LANDSMAN. The bonuses have helped in other cities. They 
made a big difference in ours. We have the bill. It is a 
bipartisan bill. I am just bringing it up, obviously, because 
it would have a big impact, but could use help from my 
Republican friends. We have a lot of Republicans on the bill, 
but we haven't been able to get it in front of the committee. 
And it would make a big difference in terms of municipalities 
being able to recruit and retain officers.
    The second thing I wanted to mention was, we talked about 
judges and law enforcement and the importance of helping and 
empowering judges and folks in law enforcement.
    One of the things is red flag laws where we say, okay, this 
person should not have a weapon. And a judge is able to say, we 
are going to--I saw in one of the budget proposals that there 
is language that may pass that would prevent any funding to 
implement red flag laws.
    I am curious, Chief or Dr. Roman, your thoughts on this. I 
mean, it seems like red flag laws is common sense, makes, you 
know, life a lot easier for law enforcement judges to get guns 
out of the hands of would-be criminals.
    Chief ROACH. I can tell you that we do propose quite often 
the emergency risk protection orders. That does help.
    Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
    Chief ROACH. And it has worked out. In every circumstance 
that we have used it, it has worked out for the better.
    Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah.
    Mr. ROMAN. And I would just add that the evidence is pretty 
overwhelming that it is an effective mechanism to prevent 
serious felonies, particularly domestic shootings.
    Mr. LANDSMAN. Yeah. And I think there is growing consensus 
about red flag laws. I just want to make sure we don't mess 
around and undermine them by cutting off funding.
    And then, lastly, there is this rise of anti-FBI sentiments 
out there. And, you know, I am Jewish, and so the work on anti-
Semitism is hugely important.
    And I am wondering, Ms. Rez, if you are worried about just 
the number of politicians who are going after the FBI, who do 
so much work to prevent crime and the spread of anti-Semitism? 
Does it worry you?
    Ms. REZ. So federal agencies are trusted partners of Stop 
Antisemitism and other Jewish organizations. In terms of 
negative public opinion or congressional opinion, again, it is 
personal. I can't speak to an individual Congresswoman or man's 
opinion. But, again, the only thing that I can say is, on the 
federal level, the FBI are trusted partners of Stop 
Antisemitism.
    Mr. LANDSMAN. Thank you. I couldn't agree more. And I do 
worry. And, hopefully, we get to an end of going after FBI, law 
enforcement in general.
    And, with that, I yield back.
    Mr. BEAN. [Presiding.] Thank you very much. Let's go to New 
York, where Representative LaLota is standing by with 
questions.
    Representative LaLota, you are recognized for 5 minutes. Go 
right ahead.
    Mr. LALOTA. The best introduction person in the House of 
Representatives. Mr. Bean, thank you, sir.
    I want to thank Chairman Williams, who just had to step out 
for a moment, for his leadership on this important topic of how 
lawlessness is impacting main street in America.
    In a recent study, 90 percent of small business said they 
had been a victim of a crime last year, 90 percent. And 83 
percent of small businesses have said that crime is a major 
issue for their business.
    And I want to thank my colleague from the other side of the 
aisle from Ohio for just a few minutes ago raising the issue of 
the COPS grant program. I am excited to announce that just 
today I introduced the COPS on the Beat Grant Program 
Reauthorization and Parity Act.
    This bill is supported by every major national police 
organization. It gives police departments, both large and 
small, certainty that a program they rely on for years and 
years to keep their communities safe will continue.
    In 2022, New York City received federal funds to hire 50 
additional officers. And, last year, the city of Norwich Police 
Department used COPS hiring grant program to hire one 
additional officer.
    Chief Roach, you lead the Norwich Police Department. Thank 
you for doing that. Can you tell me about your experience with 
the COPS program, and would you like to see it reauthorized and 
continue to be funded, sir?
    Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congressman. Yes, the COPS grant, 
as I mentioned a few minutes ago, is a great program. It 
affords small communities like Norwich the opportunity to hire 
an additional police officer.
    With that, there are a lot of things we can do, such as 
putting officers in high-risk areas, putting them in the 
downtown district, and community policing type activities, 
having them go to the school for sports events or to the YMCA 
or even just in some of the downtown Norwich events as well.
    Mr. LALOTA. Out of curiosity, how large is your department 
and what is the impact of hiring just one officer, in relation 
to overtime, patrols, other things that help enhance community 
safety? One may not seem like a large number to many, but what 
can one do for your police department?
    Chief ROACH. It is significant. We have 21 full-time 
officers. One additional officer relieves a burden of overtime. 
Most of our officers are working anywhere from 200 to 400 hours 
a year of overtime. It cuts that in half, at least. And it 
affords an opportunity to potentially promote another detective 
to work in the Detective Division.
    Mr. LALOTA. Great. Thanks so much.
    Shifting gears, Mr. Chairman, organized retail crime is on 
the rise throughout the country. Organized retail crime is the 
large-scale theft of retail merchandise with the intent to 
resell that merchandise for financial gain. It typically 
involves a criminal enterprise employing a group of individuals 
who steal large quantities of merchandise, and it affects 
businesses of all sizes.
    I am proud to cosponsor the Combating Organized Retail 
Crime Act. This expands federal enforcement of criminal 
offenses related to organized retail crime.
    Mr. Scott, thanks so much for being with us today. Would 
you support a bill that ensures criminals are held accountable 
rather than Progressive DAs allowing these offenses to go 
unpunished?
    Mr. SCOTT. Thank you for the question, Congressman. We 
support anything that gives local law enforcement the tools to 
keep criminals off the street and out of our businesses.
    Mr. LALOTA. And what sort of tools do you think would help 
those local district attorneys enforce our laws specifically 
related to retail crime a little bit better?
    Mr. SCOTT. I am afraid we are getting a little bit out of 
my area of expertise here. If you ask me what we could do to 
give them pancakes, I could be of more use.
    Again, there are a lot of ideas around, but, you know, we 
do what we can at our end. For instance, we support the Adopt-
a-Cop Programs in the community where it takes place. But 
anything on the governmental side that gives law enforcement 
the tools they need to keep the criminals from recidivism I 
think is very valuable.
    Mr. LALOTA. Yes, I would agree. And maybe at a future 
meeting, I can take you up on that pancake offer.
    Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. BEAN. Thank you very much.
    Let's go the free State of Florida. Representative Salazar, 
you are recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Pro Tempore. 
And, indeed, the free State of Florida.
    And, Mr. Scott, I am so sorry to hear what you are saying 
about your business that you had to close down because of 
crime. That is not the American way. The American way, 60 
percent of business in the United States is composed of people 
like you. So very sorry.
    And BCI--and I wanted to share this with Chief Roach. I 
come from the city of Miami. South Florida is experiencing at 
this hour a 50-year low crime rate.
    And apparently Governor DeSantis has done something 
correctly, because he offered recently bonuses, $3,000, $5,000 
bonuses for those police officers that wanted to come and join 
any of the police stations or police officers groups in the 
State. And 915 of them moved from other States and 47 from 
Illinois.
    I am not boasting. I am not happy in saying this. But we 
are doing something right in Florida that apparently other 
States are not.
    And I just wanted to start with you, Chief, and just your 
thoughts. My community is not experiencing, unfortunately, the 
same thing that you just described. What are your thoughts?
    Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congresswoman. I can't speak 
directly on the laws in Florida because, quite frankly, I am 
not familiar with them, but I can tell you bail reform has 
really made it difficult to recruit and retain officers in New 
York.
    When officers hit their 20 years in New York, they 
typically retire rather quickly, within 90 days. And whereas 
before we would have officers stay 25, 30 years, as soon as 
they hit their 20, they are usually out the door.
    Ms. SALAZAR. So you were telling about the bail. We do not 
have the cashless bail, which is something that works this way. 
You are arrested. You walk out of jail without having to pay 
bail.
    In Florida, before you walk out of jail after you are 
arrested, you have to go through a detention hearing. Is that 
the case in the State of New York?
    Chief ROACH. As I mentioned earlier, even with Class B 
felonies, drug-related Class B felonies, it is an appearance 
ticket. It is a piece of paper with a date and a time, and 
typically it is 2 weeks down the road.
    Ms. SALAZAR. And do those criminals or alleged criminals 
come back to that court date?
    Chief ROACH. Oftentimes, they do not.
    Ms. SALAZAR. So then what happens after?
    Chief ROACH. If they miss court three times, an arrest 
warrant is issued.
    Ms. SALAZAR. All right. And then what happens after the 
arrest warrant is issued if they were to be arrested?
    Chief ROACH. They would be brought back to our 
jurisdiction, arraigned in front of the judge, and the judge 
would have to make a determination at that point.
    Ms. SALAZAR. So, basically, from what you are telling me is 
the problem that the business owners are facing is not so much 
that we don't have good laws on the books. It is that our 
judicial partners are just not performing their part of the 
bargain.
    Chief ROACH. As I mentioned before, I think judges should 
have the discretion to set bail, and I think that it would 
improve the situation if we were able to arraign these 
individuals after they were arrested in front of a judge.
    Ms. SALAZAR. So what do you think needs to happen in States 
like New York? Like I said, it is not close to my district, but 
what do you think needs to happen in order to send a message to 
the judges, to the elected officials and to the judicial 
partners that this scenario needs to change? Otherwise, we will 
not have any more stores.
    Chief ROACH. I think conversations like this definitely 
help. And I think that educating the public in knowing and 
understanding that cases like assault third or rape third are 
not considered violent in New York, and we can't do an 
arraignment for a nonviolent crime.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Right. So, Mr. Scott, people like you, so if 
you were to have a magic wand and you could write the law and 
if you could write the scenario that would be most ideal for 
someone like you, what would that be?
    Mr. SCOTT. Write a law to prevent the crime in the 
restaurant?
    Ms. SALAZAR. Yes. Like, your reality. What would, like, 
your reality be in front of your pancake shop?
    Mr. SCOTT. I return, once again, to the action that 
supports local law enforcement to keep repeat criminals off the 
street.
    Ms. SALAZAR. So everything goes back to the police 
officers?
    Mr. SCOTT. Is goes back to supporting the local law 
enforcement and preventing recidivism.
    Ms. SALAZAR. And, finally, since no one has the monopoly on 
compassion, I understand that those who are committing the 
crimes may not be as privileged as some of the people that I 
represent. What do you think we should then do with those 
offenders in order to cajole them or to give them the incentive 
not to continue with that type of activity?
    Mr. BEAN. Answer the question. Please, Mr. Scott, go right 
ahead. I am a little bit--since we got a little extra.
    Mr. SCOTT. Thank you.
    Ms. SALAZAR. He is a nice guy, yeah. What could we do as a 
society in order to--what can we do as a society? It has 
nothing to do with political parties. It has nothing to do with 
who is more compassionate. What can we do in order to help 
those people not to engage in that type of activity which 
doesn't take you anywhere, to jail?
    Mr. SCOTT. I truly wish that I had the answer to that. I am 
not a sociologist, and I know the causes are myriad. I think 
one thing is that this committee has actually recognized the 
problem and has actually taken steps to help rectify it. And I 
think that is a very positive step.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Any other Member of the panel that would like 
to answer that?
    Mr. BEAN. Let's not get crazy, Representative Salazar.
    Ms. SALAZAR. I was a news reporter so I can ask.
    Thank you. I will yield back.
    Mr. BEAN. I will take your question in just a moment, 
Representative Salazar, and let them have a--just to clean up 
if there is anything left that wasn't said that you want to 
say.
    I am Aaron Bean, and I am going to recognize myself for the 
last little bit of questioning.
    Thank you for your patience today. Thanks for coming. I 
know it is your own volition that you're here to tell a story. 
Sometimes you get lucky. Sometimes life--you get lucky in life. 
I am a brandnew Congressman. I got lucky when Chair Williams--
Chairman Williams drafted me for this committee. I really 
didn't understand or know about this committee until I had 
spent a year on it. It is Small Business; it champions small 
business. And it is so exciting. It is part of the American 
Dream to have an idea or a better mousetrap and develop it and 
push it. I have been involved in four small businesses myself, 
and it does get your heart beating. People don't know. People 
don't know that you work harder. You work longer. You get up 
there, but you pay yourself last when you have the 
responsibility of other--keeping your employees, you know, food 
own their table. It is a great responsibility to happen. And 
so, for the last year, we have had people sitting in your very 
seats from around the country that have either launched or 
started and bragging about their business, and they should. And 
typically the message is ``get out of our way,'' you know, 
``let government get out of our way, let us do the thing.'' But 
they assume that government is going to enforce the rules. That 
is the one, I think one of the key things that government 
should do is just keep businesses safe and enforce the rules.
    And something changed over the last 3 years. It was about 
2020 or so, as I recollect. But I will throw that out to you 
guys. It seems something changed that we didn't see. And see, 
what America sees right now what my constituents see is, if you 
go on social media or the internet, every third or fourth video 
is a mob going into a store and just clearing shelves. They are 
harassing customers at restaurants. They are just engaging in 
lawlessness that we have never seen before, and that is 
definitely a threat to small businesses.
    So my lead off question is to Chief Roach. You have been in 
law enforcement for 20 years. What happened? What happened in 
the last 3 years that has--had the bottom falling out? And why 
is lawlessness the law of the land right now? Why are we--it 
seems that we are just going down the toilet in enforcing the 
law. What are your thoughts, Chief Roach?
    Chief ROACH. Thank you, Congressman.
    I would start with the pandemic. I think, when the pandemic 
started, we certainly saw a rise in crime. And, following that, 
in that timeframe, we had bail reform. And, as I have mentioned 
ad nauseam today, it is a continual arrest of the same 
individuals over and over and over again. That is it.
    Mr. BEAN. Why don't we just keep them--it seems like if we 
could keep them in jail, wouldn't that make law enforcement a 
lot easier? And then Elmer's Restaurants would have less to 
worry about, is that--would that be a fair statement, Chief 
Roach?
    Chief ROACH. Well, I certainly think that, as I mentioned 
before, giving the judges the discretion to do that would be a 
nice thing.
    Mr. BEAN. Is it true that, I mean it sounds crazy, but we 
live in a crazy world, and this is a crazy town, that if we 
lock up bad guys, they are less likely to commit future crimes. 
Is that true?
    Chief ROACH. I would agree with that statement.
    Mr. BEAN. That is the takeaway. If there is one thing that 
I think this committee could learn or at least the world can 
learn from locking up bad guys, crimes goes down, which is 
something else.
    We haven't spoken a lot about anti-Semitism. I was on 
another committee that talked about anti-Semitism in education. 
It is shocking. Review the tape. You probably have already 
watched it when we had presidents of our elite universities.
    But, Ms. Rez, you also have talked about that anti-Semitism 
is in small business. We have seen it in restaurants. We have 
seen vandalism. What can you say that hasn't been said that we 
need to know that this is a real problem?
    Ms. REZ. I think the issue is, again, as I said ad nauseam, 
is that the legislation is there, our judicial partners are not 
properly executing it.
    So there was an incident in May 2021 where there was a 
violent assault on a Jewish man. And the perpetrator, the 
attacker, appeared in court and was given an appearance ticket, 
essentially being let out on to the street. He then publicly 
stated, which The New York Post picked up, that he would, 
quote, ``happily do it again.'' This is so frightening in this 
current day and age to be a Jew in America, whether it is a 
small business owner, whether it is civilian, whether it is a 
Congressman. And it is just honestly unfathomable that it is 
happening----
    Mr. BEAN. We are not locking up bad guys.
    Ms. REZ.--in 2023, 2024. Excuse me.
    Mr. BEAN. Thank you right there. Thank you for bringing 
that forward.
    My last question I am going to throw it open if somebody 
else wants to jump in. Mr. Scott, thanks for coming. The story 
of the Elmer family starting their business from scratch, and 
now you have the big responsibility of leading them. And crime 
is a theme today, and it is a challenge, but there is something 
else, a great storm that is headed towards small business, and 
it is the National Labor Relations Board rule change that says 
small businesses may be responsible for the working conditions 
of franchise employees, contract employees, employees that 
really do not come under your purview, but they are going to 
say you have to take care of them. Tell us about that rule and 
just how devastating could it be to small business.
    Mr. SCOTT. Thank you, Congressman.
    The National Labor Relations Board, as you alluded, has 
come up with an unneeded, overly broad rule that would make 
franchise owners responsible for the actions of a franchisee 
regarding their employees even though the franchisor has no 
control over that. It would be devastating in the franchise 
relations. Neither franchisors nor franchisees want this. The 
current standard of direct and immediate control has worked 
well for years and appreciate you supporting that. I would urge 
every Congressman--I would ask them for their support on H.R. 
98, which----
    Mr. BEAN. It is by John James from Michigan that the House 
is set to vote on that rule. We have seen stores close due to 
crime. We have seen small businesses close due to crime. Could 
we see stores close because of this rule change if it is not 
corrected? That is a toss-up question, but, Jerry Scott, you 
are up first. Could we see stores close? Is that a possibility? 
Small businesses could get hurt by this rule close even?
    Mr. SCOTT. Well, there are sort two parts there. One part 
is absolutely small businesses would be hurt by this, and it 
will definitely discourage franchising, and it will make the 
franchisor/franchisee relationship less supportive of each 
other simply because, ``Hey, you do that, and I am responsible 
for it.''
    Mr. BEAN. Yeah.
    Mr. SCOTT. And will we see businesses close? I can't 
predict the future, but I can tell you that this would be a 
very, very wet blanket on expansion of the economy and 
expansion of small businesses. Most, many people get their 
start through franchising so they can be in business for 
themselves but not by themselves. The NLRB rule threatens that 
dramatically.
    Mr. BEAN. Amen, amen. Thank you for coming forward.
    And now we have saved the best for last, ladies and 
gentlemen. Let's go to the State of Texas. He is just the Chair 
of this committee, and it is my great honor to recognize him 
for as much time as he may consume, the Chairman Williams. You 
are recognized, Chair Williams. Welcome back.
    Chairman WILLIAMS. Thank you. I appreciate it very much, 
but you know I simply want to thank you all for being here 
today. I think that you've seen a committee that sometimes you 
don't see often. We truly have bipartisan agreement on a lot of 
things. We are not unhappy people. And I think we also 
understand small business is the backbone of our country, 75 
percent of the payroll, 75 percent of workforce is generated by 
all of us.
    Talking about franchises, I am a franchisee. I am a 
Chrysler Dodge Jeep dealer. So I think we are heading in the 
right direction, but there are things that we have got to 
change, things we have got to talk about. A lot of it does 
begin locally but also can end up here to where we get our 
country going again and to where Main Street America begins to 
have the effect it has had on this country for over 200 years. 
So I want to thank you all of you for taking time to come 
today. I know it gets very busy. I want to thank Congressman 
Bean for filling in for me, and I turn it back to you, sir.
    Mr. BEAN. Wow. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I would like to thank all the witnesses. Going forward, you 
will always get to say, ``I testified before Congress,'' and we 
appreciate your testimony today.
    Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to 
submit additional materials or written questions for the 
witnesses to the Chair, which will then be forwarded to the 
witnesses.
    And, of course, we would like to ask the witnesses to 
please respond promptly. I know you will because you did just 
an amazing job each of you today.
    And, there being no further business to come before, this 
committee, without objection, the committee is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:11 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]  
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
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