[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                     THE FUTURE OF NAGORNO-KARABAKH

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                         SUBCOMMITTEE ON EUROPE

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                           NOVEMBER 15, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-62

                               __________

        Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
        
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                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS


                    COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS #3

                   MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Chairman

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey     GREGORY MEEKS, New York, Ranking 
JOE WILSON, South Carolina               Member
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania	     BRAD SHERMAN, California	
DARRELL ISSA, California	     GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
ANN WAGNER, Missouri		     WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
BRIAN MAST, Florida		     AMI BERA, California
KEN BUCK, Colorado		     JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee		     DINA TITUS, Nevada
MARK E. GREEN, Tennessee	     TED LIEU, California
ANDY BARR, Kentucky		     SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
RONNY JACKSON, Texas		     DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
YOUNG KIM, California		     COLIN ALLRED, Texas
MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida	     ANDY KIM, New Jersey
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan		     SARA JACOBS, California
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, 	     KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
    American Samoa		     SHEILA CHERFILUS-McCORMICK, 
FRENCH HILL, Arkansas		          Florida	
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio		     GREG STANTON, Arizona
JIM BAIRD, Indiana		     MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida	             JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
THOMAS KEAN, JR., New Jersey         JONATHAN JACKSON, Illinois
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York	     SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
CORY MILLS, Florida		     JIM COSTA, California
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia              JASON CROW, Colorado
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas		     BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
JOHN JAMES, Michigan		     GABE AMO, Rhode Island
KEITH SELF, Texas			
                                

                    Brendan Shields, Staff Director
                    Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director
                                 ------  

                    Brendan Shields, Staff Director

                    Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director

                         Subcommittee on Europe

                 THOMAS KEAN, JR., New Jersey, Chairman

JOE WILSON, North Carolina           WILLIAM KEATING, 
DARRELL ISSA, California                 Massachusetts,Ranking Member
ANN WAGNER, Missouri		     DINA TITUS, Nevada
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan		     MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York	     JIM COSTA, California
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas		     SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
KEITH SELF, Texas		     GABE AMO, Rhode Island                                 

                      Katie Earle, Staff Director
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                               WITNESSES

O'Brien, Honorable James, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of European 
  and Eurasian Affairs, U.S. Department of State.................     7
Sokolowski, Alexander, Deputy Assistant Administrator, Bureau for 
  Europe and Eurasia, U.S. Agency for International Development..    16

                                APPENDIX

Hearing Notice...................................................    37
Hearing Minutes..................................................    39
Hearing Attendance...............................................    40

         STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY

Statement for the record from Representative Connolly............    41

       STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM ARMENIAN ASSEMBLY OF AMERICA

Statement for the record from Armenian Assembly of America.......    42

            RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Responses to questions submitted for the record..................    46

 
                     THE FUTURE OF NAGORNO-KARABAKH

                      Wednesday, November 15, 2023

                          House of Representatives,
                             Subcommittee on Europe
                      Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:41 a.m., in 
room 210 House Visitor Center, Hon. Thomas Kean, Jr. (chairman 
of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Mr. Kean. Thank you. The Subcommittee on Europe of the 
House Foreign Affairs Committee will come to order.
    The chair would like to remind our guests today that 
demonstrations in the audience, including the use of signs and 
placards, as well as verbal outbursts, are a violation of the 
rules of the House.
    The purpose of this hearing is to discuss the situation for 
ethnic Armenians who remain in Nagorno-Karabakh and those who 
have fled as refugees, as well as hear from the Administration 
on the status of peace negotiations between Armenia and 
Azerbaijan.
    I would also like to welcome the gentleman from Virginia, 
Mr. Connolly, and the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Schneider, 
who are joining us today. They will participate following all 
other members in today's hearing.
    I now recognize myself for an opening statement.
    In recent history, Nagorno-Karabakh has seen the first 
Nagorno-Karabakh war in the 1990's and the second Nagorno-
Karabakh war in 2020. These wars collectively killed thousands 
of soldiers and displaced upwards of a million people.
    Ahead of Azerbaijan's September assault on Nagorno-
Karabakh, impeded access of humanitarian assistance through the 
Lachin corridor ushered in a devastating crisis for ethnic 
Armenians. Following Azerbaijan's decision to retake Nagorno-
Karabakh by deadly force, mass exodus of over 100,000 ethnic 
Armenians fled into Armenia. These people are now destitute and 
are wholly dependent on international humanitarian aid. Despite 
Azerbaijan's assurance to reintegrate the ethnic Armenians in a 
way that fully respects their rights, the lack of trust on both 
sides will make this exceedingly difficult.
    I want to say publicly here that the U.S. Congress will be 
watching Azerbaijan closely to ensure that it upholds its 
obligations to respect the human rights and the fundamental 
freedoms of the residents of Nagorno-Karabakh.
    What matters most now is where we go from here. We need to 
appeal for a lasting peace, which will afford the people of 
Armenia and Azerbaijan a better life. I want to understand how 
this Administration is working with the international community 
to bring Armenia and Azerbaijan to the negotiating table.
    I also hope that our witnesses will address how the 
Administration is working to ensure such a comprehensive peace 
will deal a blow to Russian malign influence and the growing 
Russia and Iran nexus that seeks to exploit South Caucasus.
    Over 100,000 ethnic Armenians from Nagorno-Karabakh are now 
living as refugees in Armenia. We cannot afford to look away 
from the region or be distracted by other conflicts 
proliferating across the globe.
    I was encouraged to hear Administrator Power's announcement 
of 11.5 million in assistance following the September 19 
escalation, and I will ask the witnesses to detail how this aid 
is being put to use to address urgent humanitarian needs of the 
ethnic Armenians that fled to Armenia as well as those few that 
remain in and around Nagorno-Karabakh.
    Most importantly, I also want to understand what message 
the Biden Administration is sending to President Aliyev about 
refraining from any further use of deadly force. I was 
extremely disappointed that Baku amended the active diplomatic 
efforts to settle the Nagorno-Karabakh issue and instead chose 
to retake the region by force. This only exacerbated the lack 
of trust between both sides.
    I hope our witnesses today will explain how they are 
communicating to President Aliyev that the use of force against 
sovereign Armenian territory, including in the Syunik Province, 
would be completely and totally unacceptable. It is my hope 
that 1 day the region will seek true, lasting peace, free from 
Russian and Iranian malign influence. That is what the people 
of these two countries deserve.
    I thank our witnesses for being here today, and we look 
forward to your testimony.
    The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Massachusetts, 
Mr. Keating, who is the ranking member of this committee. Mr. 
Keating.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I would like to 
ask unanimous consent that Representative Dean be allowed 1 
minute because she helped facilitate the change of time here 
this morning.
    Mr. Kean. Certainly.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you so much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 
for holding today's important hearing on the future of Nagorno-
Karabakh, a region ripe with history and culture.
    Today the Caucasus region is a vibrant, geopolitically 
strategic region of the world, representing the crossroads of 
Europe and Asia, yet, for decades, the conflict between Armenia 
and Azerbaijan over ethnic Armenian enclave Nagorno-Karabakh 
has left thousands of people dead, missing, and displaced.
    In September 2020, renewed fighting between Armenia and 
Azerbaijan left 6,900 killed or missing in action, including 
4,000 from Armenia and Nagorno-Karabakh. By the end of 2021, 
40,000 had remained displaced in Armenia. A cease-fire in 
November 2020 left the status of Nagorno-Karabakh unresolved 
but importantly paused for 44 days of conflict between the two 
countries.
    In the time since the 2020 cease-fire, and amid repeated 
escalations, senior officials from Armenia and Azerbaijan have 
met repeatedly, including multiple times in Washington, hosted 
by the State Department, to talk in specificity about the 
prospects for peace, the challenges facing the countries, and 
the sensitivity of the issues which remain unresolved.
    Through these meetings and similar rounds of talks hosted 
by the European Union and bilateral initiatives regularly were 
undertaken by both countries, steady progress was made on such 
issues as deciding the border issues, missing persons, and 
mutual recognition of sovereignty and territorial integrity.
    While aspects of a comprehensive peace agreement are 
sensitive for both sides, I believe issues like the protection 
of the rights of ethnic Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh, as well 
as the passage of all goods and services through the Lachin 
corridor, remain necessary components of a comprehensive peace 
deal that will ensure a safe and dignified return for Armenians 
to Nagorno-Karabakh should they seek it.
    While months of diplomatic talks had led to significant 
progress in the face of immense personal and political risks 
undertaken by, in particular, Armenian Prime Minister 
Pashinyan, in September 2023, Azerbaijan President Aliyev 
decided to break with the internationally accepted and lawful 
diplomatic path, instead opting for the use of military force 
in Nagorno-Karabakh.
    As a result of Azerbaijan's unacceptable military action, 
over 100,000 ethnic Armenian's have fled Nagorno-Karabakh, 
resettling in Armenia and leaving their personal belongings and 
their livelihoods behind them.
    I strongly believe we must provide humanitarian and 
economic assistance to displaced people in Armenia and ensure 
accountability for any potential crimes committed against those 
fleeing Nagorno-Karabakh or those who are choosing to remain 
there.
    I also know our State Department colleagues understandably 
are actively reviewing the waiver provided by Section 907 of 
the Freedom Support Act, and I look forward to a determination 
on this issue. While these issues should be resolved first, it 
is not too early to look at the future and a potential 
comprehensive peace settlement.
    Importantly, any resolution to this issue must be made 
diplomatically and peacefully. Military action is simply 
unacceptable.
    It has been encouraging that just recently both sides have 
expressed a willingness to continue negotiations, something I 
strongly support, as long as they are undertaken in good faith 
and good conscience.
    While Armenia and Azerbaijan need to be getting back to the 
table, Russia and other outside actors who seek to undermine 
and influence negotiations must be put at bay. It is vital that 
the U.S. and Europe lead these negotiations to ensure the 
values we espouse as democracies are represented, and the 
people impacted by these conflicts, as well as those who would 
benefit from a dignified peace agreement.
    At the same time, with transatlantic alliances united in 
support of Ukraine, there is no better opportunity for the 
people of the region to reap the economic benefits of a peace 
deal than there is today. This includes respect for human and 
civil rights for all people, including those who choose to 
remain in Nagorno-Karabakh.
    This also includes Azerbaijani citizens, such as Dr. Gubad 
Ibadoghlu, a renowned economist and academic who must remain--
who remains in an Azerbaijan prison cell. Dr. Ibadoghlu's 
rights must be respected, and I will continue to call to ensure 
he receives a fair trial, food, and medicine.
    We sit here today at an inflection point in this decades-
long conflict, and I strongly believe a comprehensive, 
diplomatic peace agreement will benefit the people of the 
region and in the region as a whole.
    With that, I yield back.
    Mr. Kean. Thank you, Mr. Keating.
    We now yield to the gentlewoman from Pennsylvania, 
Representative Dean.
    Ms. Dean. I thank you, Chairman Kean, Ranking Member Meeks, 
for holding this important and timely hearing, and for allowing 
me just brief remarks. I was happy to be any small part of 
putting this meeting together.
    I commend the Administration for its consistent engagement 
in Azerbaijan and Armenia on the issue of Nagorno-Karabakh. As 
we all know, the conflict ultimately has--unfortunately has 
escalated. What started as a blockade of Nagorno-Karabakh 
culminated in the Azerbaijani offensive on September 19 and 20 
to regain control of the region. Within 10 days, approximately 
100,000 residents of Nagorno-Karabakh--about 80 percent of the 
population--fled to Armenia.
    Armenia, the U.S., EU, and international organizations have 
stepped in to provide humanitarian assistance for the refugees, 
but many questions remain as to their future, as well as the 
future of Nagorno-Karabakh.
    I want to just briefly say thank you to our witnesses. 
Thank you for your expertise and your service. Ambassador 
O'Brien and Dr. Sokolowski, thank you for being with us today. 
I look forward to hearing your testimony and this discussion 
about how we can work together to secure a stable, prosperous 
future for the region.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Kean. Other members of the subcommittee are reminded 
that opening statements may be submitted for the record.
    We are pleased to have a distinguished panel of witnesses 
before us today on this important topic. Ambassador James 
O'Brien is Assistant Secretary in the Bureau of European and 
Eurasian Affairs at the Department of State, and Dr. Alexander 
Sokolowski is a Deputy Assistant Administrator in the Bureau 
for Europe and Eurasia in the U.S. Agency for International 
Development.
    Thank you both for being here today. Your full statements 
will be made part of theand I will ask each of you to keep your 
verbal remarks to 5 minutes in order to allow time for member 
questions.
    I now recognize Ambassador O'Brien for his opening 
statement.

STATEMENT OF HON. JAMES O'BRIEN, ASSISTANT SECRETARY, BUREAU OF 
    EUROPEAN AND EURASIAN AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

    Ambassador O'Brien. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member 
Keating, Representative Dean. I think your opening statements 
have set the context very well, so I will try to focus my 
remarks on three elements: How we are caring for the people who 
were uprooted in September, how we are supporting Armenia, and 
how we are working toward a peace. And I know Dr. Sokolowski 
will have much to say on the specifics of our assistance toward 
all three goals.
    This is the legacy of Soviet and Russian involvement in the 
region, and we have to deal with the consequences of their 
meddling and role over, really, centuries, but particularly the 
last 3 decades.
    So let me talk first about the people who were uprooted, 
the 100,000 or so as you all eloquently noted, and the culture 
that has moved out of Nagorno-Karabakh, at least temporarily. 
So we insist on the people having complete access to the 
territory on the protection of the property--the protection of 
the culture, and that the people receive adequate information, 
so that they can make a real choice about their future and know 
that they have the viable opportunity to return and live well 
in Nagorno-Karabakh, if that is what they choose.
    I am encouraged that the U.N. and ICRC report that they 
have unimpeded, unrestricted access to Nagorno-Karabakh to 
verify conditions on the ground, and we are working to be sure 
that they are able to speak with the refugees inside Armenia, 
so that they are clear--there is clear and reliable information 
available to them.
    So there are two things we are doing. One is we want them 
to have a viable choice, to have the information and the rights 
they need to make decisions for themselves. As you have 
mentioned, we have already committed substantial money since 
September 19 to make this possible.
    I met on Friday with Prime Minister Pashinyan to discuss 
other steps that we might take to support the refugees and 
assist the government of Armenia with helping them in their 
current situation and with whatever choices they might make. 
And I know Dr. Sokolowski will have more to say about this.
    I also want to assure the committee that we are developing, 
at the Secretary's order, a comprehensive, thorough, and 
transparent record of what happened, not just on those days but 
for the months before. We have commissioned independent 
investigators. We have our own investigators working in the 
field. There is information available from international NGO's 
and other investigators. And as we develop the record of what 
happened, we will be completely open about what we are finding.
    I cannot put a timeline on this investigation, but we will 
keep you informed as we go forward. I am happy to say more 
about this.
    The second thing we are working on is support for Armenia. 
I have been fortunate to work on issues in Armenia over the 
last couple of years in my role as the sanctions coordinator at 
the State Department. I am very impressed by the government's 
commitment to reform and to diversifying the relationships that 
it has--economic, political, energy, and security--particularly 
in the transatlantic community.
    And I think we owe it to the people of Armenia to help them 
through this difficult situation, so that those choices they 
have made very bravely are able to help them have a more 
secure, stable, and prosperous future.
    So we are working closely with the European Union on 
providing an offer of support for Armenia over the next months. 
When I met with the prime minister on Friday, this was the main 
topic of our conversation. And I think it is critical to a 
secure, free, and prosperous region that we be supportive of 
the Armenian people and of the government and the choices that 
they have made.
    Third, we are working--we are pursuing a peace agreement. 
The sides have met multiple times. I saw the European Union 
mediators just this week, spoke with others this morning. They 
are hosting one of the parties today. The next few weeks will 
be critical in testing the parties' willingness to go from good 
intentions to saying yes. Because as we all know, yes is the 
hardest word to get in a negotiation.
    So how are we doing that? Well, we are deeply engaged. I 
think there have been 13 senior-level visits to the capitals, 
Yerevan and Baku, since September, as well as--and meeting 
among the parties as well. We are also deeply engaged with our 
Turkish colleagues as we go forward.
    We have made clear that nothing will be normal with 
Azerbaijan after the events of September 19 until we see 
progress on the peace track. So we have canceled a number of 
high-level visits, condemned the actions. And, you know, you 
mentioned, Representative Keating, the 907 waiver. We do not 
anticipate submitting a waiver until such time as we see a real 
improvement in the situation.
    All of this is to say we continue to urge peace. Now, why 
would they make peace now and not before? I think you each 
pointed to a couple of key elements. One of them is the 
economic benefit of peace. Central Asian countries are looking 
for new routes to get their goods to market. Those routes can 
run through Azerbaijan on to Georgia or down through Armenia to 
Turkey. We have said no use of force is acceptable.
    A transit corridor built with the involvement, the consent 
of Armenia, can be a tremendous boon to states across the 
region and to global markets who will receive access to these 
goods. A transit corridor created some other way, by force or 
with involvement of Iran, will, I think, be met with a very 
strong reaction and will not be a success. That is a simple 
choice.
    The other piece I think you have all touched on as well, it 
is the choice of what political relationships these states want 
to have in the future. A future that is built around an access 
of Russia and Iran as the main participants in security in the 
region, I think, is unstable and undesirable, including for 
both the governments of Azerbaijan and Armenia.
    They have the opportunity to make a different decision now, 
and we are clarifying that. And I anticipate we will have more 
senior-level involvement over the weeks to come.
    With that----
    Mr. Kean. Thank you, Ambassador O'Brien.
    Ambassador O'Brien [continuing]. I appreciate the time.
    [The prepared statement of Ambassador O'Brien follows:]

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Kean. I now recognize Dr. Sokolowski for his opening 
statement.

      STATEMENT OF ALEXANDER SOKOLOWSKI, DEPUTY ASSISTANT 
 ADMINISTRATOR, BUREAU FOR EUROPE AND EURASIA, U.S. AGENCY FOR 
                   INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

    Mr. Sokolowski. Thank you. Chairman Kean, Ranking Member 
Keating, distinguished members of the Subcommittee on Europe, 
thank you for your invitation to speak today----
    Mr. Kean. Can you bring your microphone a little closer, 
please?
    Mr. Sokolowski. Oh, sure. Can you hear me better now? OK. 
Great. Thank you for your invitation to speak today on USAID's 
work in the South Caucasus and your support, particularly 
concerning the humanitarian situation surrounding the crisis in 
Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia.
    I welcome the opportunity both to talk about our work in 
the region and to hear your perspectives. USAID and our 
interagency partners have been working diligently to respond to 
the situation in Nagorno-Karabakh. For months, humanitarian 
conditions in the territory steadily deteriorated due to the 
blockage of the Lachin corridor, resulting in critical 
shortages of food, energy supplies, medical commodities, and 
other essential goods.
    Humanitarian conditions in Nagorno-Karabakh further 
worsened after armed clashes erupted on September 19. This 
prompted more than 100,000 people, nearly all of the ethnic 
Armenians in the territory, to flee Nagorno-Karabakh in less 
than 2 weeks. Many of these displaced people exhibited symptoms 
of sustained emotional distress and chronic illness as a result 
of Azerbaijan's blockage of the Lachin corridor.
    Four days after Azerbaijan's military action, USAID 
Administrator Samantha Power traveled to Armenia to express 
USAID's support for Armenia and for the people of Nagorno-
Karabakh and to oversee U.S. efforts to respond to the 
immediate needs of the ethnic Armenians fleeing the territory.
    Administrator Power met with Prime Minister Nikol Pashinyan 
and underscored USAID's commitment to support the Armenian 
government in assisting displaced persons arriving in Armenia. 
The Administrator traveled to Armenia's border with Azerbaijan 
to speak firsthand to ethnic Armenians fleeing Nagorno-Karabakh 
and with humanitarian organizations working to support the tens 
of thousands of people arriving each day.
    Administrator Power also announced the activation of a 
disaster assistance response team to identify priority response 
needs and to work with humanitarian partners to provide 
urgently needed aid.
    Administrator Power then traveled to Azerbaijan, where she 
met with President Ilham Aliyev, to express the United States' 
deep concerns with Azerbaijan's use of force in Nagorno-
Karabakh and to press the Azerbaijani government to allow 
humanitarian access to the territory, to protect Armenian 
religious and cultural sites, and to take clear steps to give 
ethnic Armenians the confidence to return safely.
    Assistant Secretary O'Brien already noted the $11.5 million 
in assistance announced on September 26. And, additionally, 
USAID has focused nearly $6 million in funding from existing 
programming at USAID Armenia to respond to the humanitarian 
crisis. This assistance provides immediate food, hygiene, 
shelter, shelter materials, child protection, and support to 
local governments and communities where the new arrivals have 
come to.
    Last month, USAID's Assistant Administrator for Europe and 
Eurasia, Ambassador Erin McKee, traveled to the Caucasus to 
receive updates on the situation and to communicate our ongoing 
commitment to the displaced people of Nagorno-Karabakh.
    In early October, I also traveled to Armenia to meet with 
those who had left Nagorno-Karabakh to consult with Armenian 
government officials on how we could cooperate further and to 
assess USAID's ongoing response efforts.
    One key takeaway from my trip was the sincere appreciation 
that displaced persons had for the government of Armenia and 
the positive assessments of its response so far. As one woman 
put it to me, we felt alone during the blockage of the Lachin 
road, but now we feel that Armenia has welcomed us.
    In addition to our response to the crisis, USAID has been 
increasing longer term development support to Armenia to 
strengthen Armenia's economic resilience, improve public 
service provision, and consolidate democratic reforms. In 
recent weeks, we have deployed teams to Yerevan to explore ways 
of helping Armenia become more resilient over the longer term, 
particularly in the governance and in the energy spheres.
    Thanks to generous support from Congress, USAID has 
increased its assistance to Armenia by more than 50 percent 
since Fiscal Year 2018. This funding has allowed us to work 
with the government of Armenia, civil society organizations, 
and help Armenia foster economic growth, strengthen civic 
engagement, help diversify its energy supply, and support a 
more pluralistic, reliable information environment.
    USAID is also helping Armenia to build economic and trade 
linkages with Western partners and to increase economic 
opportunities for women and young people.
    Last, USAID remains committed to promoting peace, 
stability, and prosperity across the South Caucasus. To that 
end, we have recently launched regional programs focusing on 
goals common to all three countries in the region, specifically 
rural development and natural resources management. Through 
these cross-border programs, USAID seeks to build partnerships 
that create the basis for shared prosperity, improved 
livelihoods, and peace.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to discuss USAID's 
priorities and efforts. I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Sokolowski follows:]

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. Kean. Thank you, Dr. Sokolowski.
    I now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    As I mentioned in my opening remarks, the U.S. must send a 
clear message to President Aliyev that the use of force against 
sovereign Armenian territory, including the Province of Syunik, 
would be completely unacceptable.
    Ambassador O'Brien, what measures is the Administration 
prepared to use to deter such move by Baku? Is the decision to 
forego, as you have alluded to in your opening comments, a 
Section 907 waiver for Azerbaijan part of that effort? And what 
else--what other measures are you taking?
    Ambassador O'Brien. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So we have 
signaled repeatedly Ambassador Power communications from the 
Secretary every level contact we have had that the use of force 
inside Armenia is completely unacceptable. The authorities in 
Baku have assured us they have no such intention, and we are 
monitoring very closely the movement of troops and any 
indication that they might have plans otherwise.
    As I indicated, we have told them that there is no chance 
of business as usual as long as the peace agreement goes 
unconcluded. So what steps do we take with that? It is two 
things. One is we have canceled a number of senior-level 
engagements. We do not anticipate submitting a waiver, a 907, 
which enables us to provide some assistance to Azerbaijan, and 
it is assistance that is meaningful, both to them and to us, so 
this has some effect.
    And we are noting that the possibility of building a 
transit corridor hinges on the conclusion of a peace agreement 
that--an agreement with Armenia on working consensually to 
develop that. So we are putting forth all the elements that we 
see as important in the relationship in order to see whether we 
can get a peace agreement concluded now. Thank you.
    Mr. Kean. Ambassador O'Brien, in your written testimony, 
you said that the State Department is supporting efforts to 
interview those who fled Nagorno-Karabakh to learn more about 
what they experienced. What has the State Department learned 
from these interviews about the living conditions of ethnic 
Armenians and their treatment during Azerbaijan's offensive?
    Ambassador O'Brien. So I do not want to get in front of the 
conclusions, and I want to maybe offer a little context. My 
background, I began as a young State Department lawyer where I 
was one of the informal group at the time to investigate the 
activities in Bosnia where the phrase ethnic cleansing first 
came to international attention.
    This takes some time because we are dealing with a 
population that have been under enormous stress in the months 
leading up to the events of September 19 and has been through 
an extraordinarily difficult time. So we are just beginning to 
speak with the residents, and it is not just us. We are also--
there are other groups that are actively involved. We want to 
be sure that we are not reinterviewing the same people in a way 
that it causes them further trauma, so this coordinating effort 
has taken some time.
    What we are learning is there was a period of--a condition 
of fear due to the closure of the Lachin corridor in the runup. 
That is no surprise to anyone. And so when Azeri authorities 
came in forcibly on September 19, it caused the residents to 
want to leave.
    Now, exactly what activities took place where, under what 
command and control, and how that was conveyed to the 
residents, these are all subjects we are seeking to learn. And, 
again, it is not just government officials doing this. We know 
there has been a report published by Human Rights Watch. The 
International Crisis Group is publishing results of its 
interviews.
    We also anticipate that the Helsinki Committees from Norway 
and Poland will have their own independent reviews. All of 
those things will coordinate--or we will bring together in a 
report that we think will give us a true picture. But it does 
take some time as we deal with a population that is still 
itself analyzing what has happened to it.
    Mr. Kean. And, Dr. Sokolowski, what more does the 
international community need to be doing to address the urgent 
needs of ethnic Armenian refugees now in Armenia?
    Mr. Sokolowski. Sure. Thank you very much, Chairman, Mr. 
Chairman, for that question. If I could start--partly respond a 
little bit to the previous question, because USAID has sent the 
Bureau for Europe and Eurasia's leading expert on human rights 
for the region to Armenia to work with our mission on 
developing an additional programmatic effort that would seek to 
gather testimony from those who have come from Nagorno-Karabakh 
to Armenia. And we are, of course, coordinating closely with 
many of the groups that my colleague had mentioned, including 
the State Department and non-government organizations.
    I would just concur with what he said with regard to this 
takes time, and we want to make sure that we do it right. But 
we are definitely focusing on that issue.
    With regard to the second question in terms of 
understanding the need, and if we are meeting the need, I would 
start with two things. First, we are engaged in a broad and 
deep conversation with the government of Armenia, particularly 
with the Ministry of Labor and Social Affairs, which is the 
lead agency for responding to the new arrivals from Nagorno-
Karabakh, to make sure that the needs are being met. And we are 
helping them and working with them to see what their needs are 
and responding appropriately.
    Of course, they are signaling to us areas where they see 
additional areas for need, and we are in that conversation with 
them right now.
    Second, I would emphasize the point I made in my testimony 
that they are receiving strong marks so far. I think many had 
thought that we were not going to receive this many displaced 
persons this quickly, but the government of Armenia, I think, 
showed itself to have shown some foresight and preparation and 
has been handling it well.
    However, yes, especially as we go from the medium to the 
longer term, there is going to have to be some effort made to 
help integrate these folks into Armenian life.
    And from my conversations with them, I will end with this: 
Many of them dream of going back to Nagorno-Karabakh, but for 
right now, they are oriented toward making a life in Armenia. 
And the government of Armenia is poised to help them do that.
    Mr. Kean. Thank you.
    And I now recognize Ranking Member Keating for any 
questions that you have.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ambassador O'Brien, you mentioned, you know, the interest--
mutual interest in economic prosperity and stability in the 
region, and you mentioned U.S. interest and European interest 
as well. One of those areas there was reports that have 
indicated that Russia has been using its influence with the 
post-Soviet states in the region to circumvent U.S. and 
European sanctions in aid of their war effort in Ukraine.
    How is the U.S. working with, you know, the countries 
affected, including Armenia, to try and deal with this issue?
    Ambassador O'Brien. It is a great question, Representative. 
So just to focus on Armenia, the government itself has 
undertaken some very interesting reforms that allow it to track 
trade with Russia. So in almost real time, they can see which 
firms are involved in the circumvention trade, and then we are 
able to take measures to stop that trade.
    It works remarkably well. We just hosted a technical group 
here in my old office about 2 weeks ago, and the recent 
statistics are very encouraging. We can verify these through 
our own sources.
    The one hole is that as a result of the 2020 cease-fire, 
so--that was signed under the previous Administration, the 
Russian troops actually control two key border crossings from 
Armenia to Russia. One is at the airport, and another land 
crossing into Azerbaijan.
    So the government has no control over the goods that flow 
through those items. It just makes even more urgent the point 
you made in your statement that we need to find a more stable 
way for Armenia to govern itself and to have the Russian 
peacekeepers leave when their 5-year term is up in another year 
and a half. We can do that only if we are deeply engaged in the 
terms of the peace agreement that emerge. If we stay out, then 
Russia continues to control the border.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you for that. My involvement--and I want 
to really congratulate our State Department. With everything 
going on in the world, their efforts to focus on this are 
critical.
    You know, I think we were at the cusp of a historic peace 
agreement, something that people never thought could happen. I 
looked at Northern Ireland and Ireland years ago when people 
said the divisions are so deep there can be no peace. And the 
Good Friday Agreement proved that there can be.
    I viewed this in the same light, and at times of critical 
historic achievement in terms of peace, leaders have to step 
forward. I think that, you know, Prime Minister Pashinyan has 
taken a great deal of criticism but has stepped forward. I 
think he deserves enormous credit for realizing long-term 
benefits to his country. And I look to President Aliyev, 
because you referenced him in your discussions initially.
    How would you categorize their role, their importance, and 
where we are with those leaders? Because historic change 
happens through courageous leadership of people in those 
countries willing to take internal criticism to do the benefit, 
the most beneficial outcomes, for their own country.
    So could you take a few minutes and talk about how you 
characterize their roles in the importance of their moving 
forward on this?
    Ambassador O'Brien. Thank you for this, and I think it is 
the right focus. And also, thank you for the kind words to the 
State Department. I am the new guy on this beat.
    But the team from the Secretaries has had three meetings 
with the parties to Lou Bono, the special representative, who 
has had, you know, multiple meetings, Ambassador Yuri Kim, who 
traveled out, Ambassador Power, the team has been I think very 
creative and diligent in pursuing this. But it all ultimately 
turns on what the two governments decide and whether the 
leaders are willing to say yes. And that is by far the most 
difficult thing to say.
    Prime Minister Pashinyan has made clear that he wants 
Armenia to have a transatlantic opportunity, and he is 
diversifying the relationships that Armenia depends upon so 
that the people there are able to choose a future that fits 
their visions of freedom. He seems willing to take chances for 
peace.
    The question, really, is whether President Aliyev is 
willing to do that, and he has said he is. So now is the 
moment, because the challenge always for a power that feels 
stronger--and I think it is fair to say Azerbaijan feels that 
it has the oil and gas revenues, the relationships, the ability 
to have some options. The challenge is always when it is time 
to cash the options in and commit to one path for the future.
    So how do we do that? We are talking a lot with Turkey, 
which has very close relations with the government in 
Azerbaijan. And we are trying to lay out a path that makes 
clear the benefits that come from peace and the costs that come 
with choosing to wait further. And, really, the decision will 
be his on whether he says yes or not, and we want that to 
happen in the next few weeks.
    All signs are they are willing to consider it, but getting 
to yes is always, you know, a difficult matter, as you know 
from your work in the Congress.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Kean. Thank you, Mr. Keating.
    I now recognize the vice chair of the Europe subcommittee, 
Mr. Self from Texas.
    Mr. Self. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A couple of comments on 
your testimoneys, both written and verbal. The cannot-be-
business-as-usual, in our bilateral relationship, I will tell 
you we hear the same language out of the State Department when 
it comes to Qatar hosting the Hamas leadership. And yet I see 
no difference in the behavior toward Qatar.
    I think that this is another attempt to pull a nation out 
of the Russian orbit, Armenia specifically, in its--I wish you 
success, but, Serbia, you are having less success, so I will 
just make that comment. And also, the recent pipeline--you 
talked about a route across Armenia. The recent pipeline from 
Azerbaijan to Turkey bypassed Armenia completely. So it will 
take a change in approach by both Azerbaijan and Armenia in 
order to make any route across Armenia.
    So now, getting to the question, you have not had a Section 
907 waiver for the first time in 20 years or so. First of all--
two questions for you, Ambassador. The first one is, what is 
the impact on our national security goals? Obviously, 
countering Iranian smuggling operations, this is a very 
dangerous part of the world. That is the first one.
    And, second, I would like your opinion on the--I would like 
your opinion on the prospective question of, as the weak 
Administration policy in this part of the world, did Azerbaijan 
see this as necessary, to take this action, in order to get the 
U.S. to focus on this because this--because your lack of a 
waiver happened before the September action.
    So do you think that Azerbaijan took this action in order 
to force you to focus on this issue? Because, obviously, the 
waiver is important to them. And I will leave it at that. Thank 
you, sir.
    Ambassador O'Brien. Thank you. I would say no. The 
Azerbaijanis have never indicated as much to us. There is no 
sign in any contextual information that suggests so. What they 
have said is that this is a 30-year conflict, and they saw an 
opportunity to end it on terms they thought were favorable to 
them.
    We have said that there was a peaceful process to do so, 
and they told us they were committed to it, and then ultimately 
were not. And that is why we have taken steps----
    Mr. Self. That is my question, Ambassador. Why the change? 
They were committed to it, and just seeing an opportunity in a 
30-year conflict seems to belie the statement.
    Ambassador O'Brien. No. I think that suggests that this was 
simply unrelated to any other events. I do not think that is 
the case. I think what they saw was the continued violence and 
risk of violence in the area, and now they had the edge to be 
able to do something about it. That is independent of their 
signaling to us.
    And I just have to say, as important as this issue has been 
to Azerbaijani politics for 30 years, the idea that a waiver, 
which isn't an important--and I will address the other 
question--the waiver is important for addressing sort of very 
narrow, specific issues. We feel comfortable that there is no 
damage to our natural security right now, but the idea that 
they would decide an issue that is of fundamental importance to 
them based upon this slightly different marginal issue just to 
get our attention when they had our attention, I do not quite 
see that that narrative hangs together.
    Mr. Self. OK. But then in my limited time, then what was 
the trigger? Simply the continued violence? Because I do not 
see that as a sufficient trigger to use military action when 
they are so close----
    Ambassador O'Brien. Yes. I----
    Mr. Self [continuing]. To resolution.
    Ambassador O'Brien. My guess is historians are going to 
argue about why this week rather than another week for a long 
time, and I do not think we will settle it in our limited time. 
But I think what you are looking at more is a discussion about 
what the future of the region is and how much it is oriented 
toward the Black Sea and the transatlantic, and they saw this 
as an issue that they now had the ability to do something 
about, and so they did it. And now we are trying to deal with 
the consequences of that in a way that, as you say, weans the 
states away from the Russian orbit.
    Mr. Self. Yes. Thank you.
    Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Kean. Thank you, Mr. Vice Chairman.
    I now recognize Ms. Titus from Nevada for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Titus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you both for being here. I would like to ask, 
Secretary O'Brien, if you would talk some more about Turkey. 
You mentioned it a couple of times, and that we are engaging 
with Turkey more. But I would like to hear some more detail 
about that. We are all familiar with the kind of fraught 
history between Turkey and Armenia, and we have only just 
recently, in 2021, recognized officially the genocide. And it 
was at that time the Library of Congress actually started using 
that term in relation to Turkey and Armenia.
    In the meantime, Turkey and Azerbaijan have been pretty 
cozy over the years. So what role will Turkey play in some 
peace relations?
    And also, what kind of damage are they causing now? Is 
there in-use monitoring of weapons that we sell to Turkey or 
that Turkey gets from us that they may then be using in helping 
Azerbaijan?
    Ambassador O'Brien. I think on the last question, 
Representative, we do have careful end use requirements and 
monitoring. I have never seen an indication of any illegitimate 
transfer. I am happy to review that and get back to you, but 
I--are you suggesting that you have seen indications of that?
    Ms. Titus. No. I was just----
    Ambassador O'Brien. OK.
    Ms. Titus. It is just an open question.
    Ambassador O'Brien. Yes. So that is, as a matter of 
practice, we are very careful about, and particularly with 
Turkey as a NATO ally. I think those relations are pretty 
transparent.
    Ms. Titus. I think we saw some use of F-16s in a previous 
engagement, but I do not know about now.
    Ambassador O'Brien. I am not familiar with that. Let me try 
to confirm that. I think that--that I have never heard. I think 
the piece with Turkey and its involvement, as you say, they 
have a very close relationship.
    And I think there are a few elements that are important 
here. One is the relationship to Armenia. We are very hopeful 
that we will see some opening, because Armenia is essentially 
landlocked, right? Its routes out have to go--to the west have 
to go through Georgia or Turkey.
    And so for Turkey to begin opening those apertures, I 
think, is critical for Armenia's future. So we spend a great 
deal of time discussing that.
    Now, the relationship with Azerbaijan, I think there are a 
couple of elements, and I think the government of Turkey is 
very well able to speak for itself, but I will say two things 
that matter. One is this economic corridor that we are 
discussing is a road, a rail route, that would run from--
really, from Central Asia through Azerbaijan and Armenia, and 
then to Turkey.
    So it is a clear Turkish economic interest to be the 
endpoint for this route. That was an element that was not 
present in previous peace talks, and so we just want to be sure 
that it is kept central to everyone's calculations.
    And then, finally, to the point that the ranking member and 
I were discussing, one of the hardest issues for a leader is to 
know when the moment is to strike a deal rather than to wait 
for the deal to get better. And that is, to some extent, an 
objective calculation, but it more often also depends on your 
friends telling you when enough is enough.
    And so having a clear communication with Turkey and a 
constructive involvement by Turkey in these discussions is 
incredibly helpful, because President Aliyev will want to know 
that he is not alone making this decision, but that he is with 
a long-time partner of his own. And I think that is a role that 
Turkey can uniquely play.
    Ms. Titus. Thank you.
    Doctor?
    Mr. Sokolowski. I would just add to that the point about 
the value of including Armenia in this middle corridor route. 
The Ambassador spoke about some of that. USAID has actually 
worked with the government of Armenia on doing some analytical 
work in studies of those routes. And if you may have seen 
recently at the Silk Road Forum in Tbilisi, Prime Minister 
Pashinyan went and put up a big map of all the different trade 
routes that Armenia would like to see to deal with this issue 
of being landlocked that was discussed earlier.
    So we very much see, you know, opening up routes, opening 
up economies, opening up energy cooperation, as a key dividend 
of peace. And that is one of the things that we are trying to 
help with from the USAID side to promote peace.
    Thank you.
    Ms. Titus. Thank you. And I yield back.
    Mr. Issa [presiding]. The gentlelady yields back.
    The gentleman from--the gentleman, Mr. Wilson, is 
recognized.
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Chairman Darrell Issa.
    And, indeed, thank both of you for your service. It is so 
important, more so than ever, in our country. And then, 
Secretary O'Brien, I want this to be perceived as a compliment, 
but you clearly are the winner of the Speaker Mike Johnson 
contest, look-alike contest, OK? So as we proceed with this in 
mind, the United States has acted in important partnerships----
    Mr. Issa. Are you going to let the gentleman respond to 
that?
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Wilson. Hey, it is all good. Hear, hear.
    Ambassador O'Brien. I should be so lucky, Representative 
Wilson.
    Mr. Wilson. No, no, no. Hey, I--hey, those glasses give it 
away right away, OK?
    The United States has an active and important partnership 
with both Armenia and Azerbaijan, very significant countries 
for Caspian Sea and Black Sea prosperity and stability. 
Armenian Americans and Azerbaijani Americans are very 
successful, and they have been so appreciated in business, in 
community activities, and leaders all across America. Every 
part of America has people who we cherish, our Armenian and 
Azerbaijani Americans.
    What is the path forward in working with both countries 
with the importance of maintaining our strong relationships 
with both?
    Ambassador O'Brien. I will let Dr. Sokolowski talk to many 
of the ways we are trying to improve governmental capacity in 
both countries. But I will just say you are right that we have 
important relations with both countries, and that is why the 
way we are managing this is that we want to see Armenia improve 
the options it has to represent its people. And we want to work 
with Azerbaijan as it makes its choices so that human rights 
there improve, something we comment on regularly, but that our 
relationship can get back to normal.
    So it is just one example. Again, we talk about this 
transit corridor. There is business to be done in this region. 
It will add to the prosperity, and we think the reform efforts 
across the region, so we would love to see this transit 
corridor happen with the consented involvement of both states.
    An attempt to do it unilaterally or with the help of Iran 
would not be acceptable, and so we are painting a future of how 
we can grow closer and work more together that way.
    Mr. Wilson. We look forward to backing you up in every way. 
Additionally, how would the withholding of Section 907 waiver 
and stopping security assistance to Azerbaijan impact other 
national security goals, such as countering the Iranian 
smuggling operations?
    Ambassador O'Brien. So we feel that where the program is in 
place now, absorbing previous years, that our security is--
remains protected by where we are with the program. We want to 
make clear it would be good to move to a new phase, but that we 
cannot do until we see progress on the peace side.
    Mr. Wilson. And it is so important to me that we counter 
the axis of evil, being the regime in Tehran, the Chinese 
Communist Party, war criminal Putin, and all of this fits 
together. And it is to the benefit of the people of Azerbaijan 
and Armenia that, indeed, the dictators with rule of gun do not 
prevail over democracies with rule of law. And we need to be 
sticking together.
    Additional to that, Mr. Secretary, Putin has 3,000 soldiers 
at a base--military base in Armenia, which is startling. And 
they claim that they have a right to be there through 2044, but 
that is not clear. And so what can be done to assist the people 
of Armenia to request of Putin to take his troops home?
    Ambassador O'Brien. I think--I agree with both the 
statements you just made. I think the answer to both is the 
same. Our involvement in concluding a peace agreement between 
these countries is the way that each can find a way forward. 
The Russian troops are present under--at the moment, it is a 5-
year initial term following the 2020 peace agreement.
    If there is an alternative for the countries, then there 
will be no role for these Russian peacekeepers. I mean, they 
have already failed as peacekeepers. And so the best approach 
is to give both these countries the alternative of working with 
us and the West.
    Mr. Wilson. And I know that we are here in regard to 
Nagorno-Karabakh, but I was grateful for Congresswoman Titus 
bringing up Turkey, our NATO ally. Somehow, we have got to have 
them understand how important they are to world security, and 
we need to have rapprochement in every way that we can.
    So, hey, what I am just telling you, you need to be a 
miracle worker.
    Thank you very much.
    Mr. Issa. The gentleman yields back.
    We recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Costa.
    Mr. Costa. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and I want to 
thank the chairman of the subcommittee and the ranking member 
for holding this hearing. I think it is timely and important.
    We had actually requested this over a month ago, and I am 
glad we finally are here. We have also followed up with a 
letter by--a bipartisan letter on a number of actions that I 
would like to bring to the attention of the State Department 
and followup. I do not think we have gotten answers to those 
yet.
    Let me begin, first of all, though--and I concur with the 
earlier point that was made with Dr. Ibadoghlu who is being 
held captive. I think we need to stay on top of that, and, 
obviously, request his release. It is the humanitarian thing to 
do.
    But I want to also ask you, we are trying to deal with this 
supplemental package, we hope after Thanksgiving, that would 
provide funding not only for Ukraine, which is critical, but 
also for Israel and the challenges in Gaza. And humanitarian 
aid is a part of that component.
    And I would hope that the State Department is looking when 
we hopefully come together with a bipartisan package in 
December, and a segment of that bipartisan--that supplemental 
would provide humanitarian support for Armenia, given the over 
100,000 refugees that they are dealing with, and some of the 
other issues. Is that the intention at the State Department?
    Mr. Sokolowski. I can take a first stab at it. Thank you 
very much for the question, Representative Costa. What I can 
reiterate is that in our conversations with the government of 
Armenia, they continue to identify needs that they----
    Mr. Costa. Yes, they have. And they have been providing----
    Mr. Sokolowski. Yes. And they--yes.
    Mr. Costa [continuing]. Members of Congress with those 
needs. I assume they have been providing you with those needs 
as well.
    Mr. Sokolowski. Yes. Correct. And we are in conversations 
with them on trying to meet those within existing resources 
that we have. They are handling those to the extent that they 
can, but, yes, I can confirm that they are asking for----
    Mr. Costa. I mean, they have a 6-month commitment to these 
refugees for housing, for medical assistance, and for economic 
relocation.
    Let me move on. I have been listening to this conversation, 
and I am--maybe I am misinformed. I do not see the peace 
process as going nearly as well as some of the description I 
have just heard. The meeting in Granada, Spain, the last two 
meetings, Azerbaijan has refused to go. I do not know how you 
describe that as being positive.
    And Armenia, I know, is very concerned that the mediators 
would be Turkey and Russia. I mean, Russia did absolutely 
nothing but allow the--Azerbaijan to do the ethnic cleaning. It 
was ethnic cleansing that happened with the removal of these 
Armenians from their historic homeland in Nagorno-Karabakh.
    I mean, to call it something else, these folks did not want 
to leave. And the corridor, I am not convinced that they have 
access to go back to their homes. I am hearing something 
entirely different. Do you care to comment?
    Ambassador O'Brien. Yes. Sorry.
    Mr. Costa. Don't just let my time run out, please.
    Ambassador O'Brien. No, no, no, no.
    Mr. Issa. Don't let bells and whistles bother you either. 
We ignore them, too.
    Ambassador O'Brien. I apologize. So I think you know the 
situation well.
    Mr. Costa. Yes.
    Ambassador O'Brien. And I have talked about----
    Mr. Costa. They represent a significant Armenian community, 
land of William Saroyan.
    Ambassador O'Brien. And so what I would say on the peace 
process is what I have said throughout, is I think the parties 
are engaging with each other directly. They do occasionally use 
mediators. Sometimes they argue about which the mediators 
should be, but they are in direct bilateral contact, assisted 
by us, assisted by the Europeans.
    Mr. Costa. So they certainly do not trust Turkey, and they 
shouldn't. And Russia's track record now, when you include 
Ukraine, is not one that I would rely on.
    Ambassador O'Brien. I do not think they are relying on 
those people. I think this comes down to whether they can look 
each other in the eye and say, yes. And so it is--I wouldn't 
worry about sort of the different mediation efforts. I think 
this is fundamentally about whether the two leaders say we want 
to be in partnership working on this together going forward. 
And we are doing what we can to make clear the benefits of that 
happening.
    Mr. Costa. Well, my understanding is the Armenian leader is 
showing courage. He is----
    Ambassador O'Brien. Yes.
    Mr. Costa [continuing]. In a tenuous situation, and we need 
to do everything we can to provide support. And the corridor 
that you talk about I think, from what I hear, Armenians are 
concerned and feel threatened by that corridor and what it 
might imply for another grabbing of land by Azerbaijan once it 
is established and what kind of role they would play or any 
benefits that they could--or whether or not they could hold 
Azerbaijan to an agreement that would--that they would benefit 
from that corridor that would be an--in portion on Armenian 
land.
    Ambassador O'Brien. But those are problems to be solved, 
Representative. Currently, that land is controlled by Russian 
peacekeepers. If we create an alternative that can be 
negotiated with Armenia, we are in a fundamentally different 
place. That is where the prime minister says he wants to be.
    Mr. Costa. Well, my time has expired, Mr. Chairman. But I 
think that Russian peacekeepers is a bit of an oxymoron.
    Mr. Issa. On that note, the gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize myself to agree with the gentleman that if 
you shake hands with a Russian, you lose fingers.
    Some years ago I was in Baku for the celebration of the 
pipeline completion through there, and there were eight heads 
of State. Weirdly enough, I was the highest-ranking American, 
which is a little questionable that--how engaged we were. And 
that tells me to a certain extent that it is not new that we 
say we are engaged, but we then leave it to proxies, and 
proxies like Turkey and Russia.
    So following up on the gentleman from California's 
statement, what are you prepared to do, Ambassador, to create 
carrot-and-stick to move this agenda? Are you willing to add 
sanctions for non-compliance? And are you willing to--you said 
available resources. Would you delineate some of the resources 
you believe you have that could help Armenia be in a position 
to want to have a settlement and to trust in the settlement?
    Ambassador O'Brien. It is a question we are working on. As 
I said, we are looking at a matter of weeks to a few months, so 
these are all questions we are developing answers to.
    Mr. Issa. You are so close. Can't you give us a hint?
    Ambassador O'Brien. Well, perhaps not always in this forum, 
but I will say there are two serious questions also that we are 
trying to sort through. One is the relationship with the 
European Union. So President von der Leyen has said publicly 
that she intends to have a meeting with the U.S. and with 
Armenia on a way to bring Armenia closer to our communities. I 
discussed this with the Prime Minister just a few days ago, and 
we are developing what that would look like.
    And, obviously, given the proximity, the offer the European 
Union could make in terms of trade preferences, economic 
alignment, and access to the single market is incredibly 
important. We can assist in that, and that is just another 
piece.
    And Dr. Sokolowski can talk about that. The feasibility 
studies on this transit corridor have actually been done--
funded by AID. So we are in the middle of seeing what kind of 
economic future there may be. There may also be additional 
items that we and the Europeans can bring to bear on security.
    France has just announced some significant contributions to 
Armenia's security, and, yes, we are looking at all the tools 
we have. I am not going to preview any sanctions decisions, but 
that is certainly a tool in our toolkit and----
    Mr. Issa. Well, let me just followup on that. You are not 
previewing them, but are you committing to a willingness to use 
them if we do not--if other methods do not work?
    Ambassador O'Brien. Yes.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you. Armenia is obviously eligible for a 
lot of USAID support. You mentioned those studies that were 
done under USAID. Has TDA, the Trade Development Agency, been 
in there? And, if not, wouldn't they benefit by having the 
feasibility that would include U.S. alternatives to Belt and 
Road?
    Mr. Sokolowski. So I will start with that, and I think this 
keys into your--so thank you for the question, Representative 
Issa. This keys into the conversation that you were just having 
with the Ambassador with regard to broader support for Armenia.
    We are engaged with the government of Armenia in a number 
of different areas to help them increase their resilience and 
give them options, so that they are not so dependent on 
previous relationships with Russia that go back to the Soviet 
period. And these are engagements on areas related to trade, 
energy and critical infrastructure, information systems, a 
whole range of things, even including agriculture. That is what 
I wanted to get to.
    So we worked with our colleagues at the Department of State 
and with the USDA to bring in folks from the USDA to start to 
work with the government of Armenia on what it can do on 
lessening its dependence on Russian grain and flour.
    And so that, per your point about TDA, we see this as a 
moment where it really has to be a whole of government effort, 
looking across all of our abilities, to see what we can bring 
in in response to what the government of Armenia is signaling 
its needs are. So I think that is a great point, and we are at 
a moment where we are looking more broadly than we have in the 
past about which is the best U.S. Government partner to respond 
to government of Armenia needs.
    Mr. Issa. In my remaining moments, I want to followup on 
that, Doctor. The Armenian government, its ability to know what 
it needs versus a willingness for us to lean into program 
suggestions, if you were to balance the two of them without any 
disrespect to the government, wouldn't you balance it in favor 
of we need to lean in?
    Mr. Sokolowski. Thank you for that question, because it is 
a great question that goes to the core of what we do in our 
development relationships with our partners. And it really is a 
conversation. They will come into a conversation saying we need 
these ten things. And in the midst of a conversation, we can 
say, well, what about this eleventh thing or the thing that you 
are suggesting? Have you thought about this experience from 
this other country that might be useful?
    So I think you are absolutely right that we shouldn't just 
say, OK, here is what you are saying and that is exactly what 
it is. It is a conversation in which we can say here is where 
we think we can help you. Here is where other different parts 
of the U.S. Government or even other donors or other 
organizations could be of support.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you.
    My time has expired. Pursuant to the committee rules, I now 
recognize the gentleman from New York, Mr. Lawler.
    Mr. Lawler. Thank you, Chairman.
    Administrations here in the U.S. have long justified 
sending military assistance to Azerbaijan on the basis of the 
supposed utility in the containment of Russia and Iran, yet 
Azerbaijan has extensive energy ties with both. Sanctioned 
Russian and Iranian companies own significant shares in 
Azerbaijan's gas fields, exporting energy to Europe, and 
Azerbaijan has recently signed lucrative energy deals with both 
countries.
    Yes or no, is the Administration aware of Azerbaijan's 
energy ties with Russia and Iran?
    Ambassador O'Brien. Yes.
    Mr. Lawler. And do you believe this behavior is consistent 
with our regional interests?
    Ambassador O'Brien. No. And we try to encourage 
diversification of Azerbaijan's ties for that reason.
    Mr. Lawler. So I recently introduced a sanctions bill on 
Iranian petroleum, which passed through the House, the SHIP 
Act. And the reason being that obviously the United States has 
sanctions on Iranian petroleum, but, frankly, the 
Administration was not enforcing secondary sanctions on the 
purchasers.
    You look at China. They are the largest purchaser of 
Iranian petroleum. Iranian petroleum sales are up 59 percent 
since this Administration took office.
    So when you look at what is happening around the globe, and 
the relationship between China, Russia, Iran, and what they are 
doing to undermine the United States and our allies and our 
interests around the globe, why would we not try to hold 
Azerbaijan accountable for the arrangements that they have with 
both Russia and Iran when it comes to energy?
    Ambassador O'Brien. Well, at the risk of separating two 
subjects you just merged, I think if our concern is with Iran, 
we should take focus on Iran. And I had some involvement. I 
mean, we sanctioned a number of Iranian companies that were 
involved in military support to Russia and a number of 
companies involved in the Iranian trade.
    The difficult--oil trade--the difficulty we were 
encountering with both Russia and Iran was the growth of this 
ghost fleet and, say, ghost services industries. So the way in 
which we traditionally restrict oil sales is to go after the 
insurance crew providers, you know, all of those service 
entities. And, ultimately, the ships that carried the oil 
depended on those services, so they would tend to come into 
compliance.
    What we have seen in the last few years is the growth of 
500 or more tankers that are carrying oil completely outside 
the service----
    Mr. Lawler. Right. Which is why I introduced the SHIP Act.
    Ambassador O'Brien. Well, and so the--what we also are 
doing, though, is trying to reregulate these ships, because it 
is a great danger to navigation as well as to our sanctions 
programs. So we have issued the first steps along that way.
    I think you saw some initial sanctions come out in the last 
package, as well as an advisory that is increasing the due 
diligence requirements of those who would sell the ships or buy 
them back, and then otherwise service them. And we are now 
engaged with the ports to which these ships go, because--to 
recognize the dangers and increase their regulation of them as 
well.
    So there are a couple of different ways of slicing the cake 
here, but we are trying to get at the same problem with the 
tools that we have available to us.
    Mr. Lawler. President Biden recently noted that when 
autocrats do not quote, pay a price for their aggression, end 
quote, it only emboldens their behavior. What has the Biden 
Administration done to ensure Azerbaijan pays a price for its 
aggression?
    Ambassador O'Brien. So, as I have mentioned, we have made 
clear to them that there is no business as usual. We have 
suspended high-level contacts on a variety of topics, and we 
are not--we have not and do not anticipate submitting a waiver 
on 907.
    The real question is, so is that enough? And President 
Aliyev has traditionally tried to balance his ties to the 
regional players, Russia, Iran, particularly, Central Asia, as 
well as to the West. And I think he is reaching a point--my 
analysis--that if he makes peace, he has the opportunity to 
become more prosperous and to be in a stable area where there 
are counterweights to Russia and Iran.
    If he fails to make peace, he is really saying that in the 
future I want to be beholden to Russia and Iran at a time when 
those two powers are getting much closer to one another than 
they are to him. And that puts him in the position of being 
very much the odd man out in a three-way game. And I think that 
is not where he should want to head, so we are trying to 
provide him with the alternative of a better future.
    Mr. Lawler. Thank you.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Issa. The gentleman yields back.
    We now recognize the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. 
Schneider.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank 
the witnesses.
    From December of last year to September of this year, 
Azerbaijan blockaded the Lachin corridor, the only connection 
between Armenia proper and the ethnic enclave of Nagorno-
Karabakh or Artsakh. Many of us here in Congress sent letter 
after letter after letter and supported resolution after 
resolution to assert pressure and relieve the humanitarian 
situation in Nagorno-Karabakh, which had been exacerbated since 
the 2020 war.
    It looks like we failed. During September 19 and 20, 
Azerbaijan launched an offensive that led to the local Armenian 
authorities agreeing to a cease-fire. Within 10 days of that 
cease-fire, the ethnic Armenian population of the enclave went 
from 120,000 to 100,000, with locals leaving in fear or 
forcibly being expelled.
    Approximately 300 people died, 220 of them in a fuel depot 
explosion about which we do not yet know enough of the details. 
Dozens remain missing.
    I want the people who chant cease-fire now around the world 
not to forget Nagorno-Karabakh. That cease-fire ended in an 
ethnic cleansing, not a multi-ethnic harmony.
    American relations with Azerbaijan are inherently 
complicated. Azerbaijan shares our skepticism of Russia and 
Iran, and the country supports our ally, Israel. We cannot 
ignore the strategic opportunities and shared priorities with 
Azerbaijan, but we must also be firm advocates for our values 
and the principles of human rights.
    The tightening of the stranglehold around Nagorno-Karabakh 
over the years until the ethnic Armenian population was forced 
to leave was not just about counterterrorism, and it was not 
just about geopolitics. When we reflect on how this could have 
possibly happened, I want to share a story that took place in 
Hungary in 2004.
    Gurgen Magaryan, a lieutenant in the Armenian army, was in 
Budapest participating in a 3-month English course as part of 
NATO's Partnership for Peace Program. He was sleeping in his 
room around 5 a.m. when Gurgen was axed, hacked to death, by an 
Azerbaijani lieutenant, Ramil Safarov, a fellow participant in 
the very same program.
    Gurgen received 16 blows to his face, and his head was 
nearly separated from his body. Safarov was convicted of murder 
and sentenced to life by a Hungarian court in 2006. Sadly, in 
2012, 2 years into Viktor Orban's premiership, Safarov was 
extradited to Azerbaijan. The killer was greeted as a hero and 
pardoned by President Aliyev. The defense ministry promoted him 
to the rank of major and furnished him with an apartment and 
back pay.
    So this story leads me to ask you, Ambassador O'Brien, what 
should be our takeaway from what happened in 2004 through 2012? 
How should we think of the possibilities of peace between 
Armenia and Azerbaijan in this context?
    Ambassador O'Brien. I think, Representative, that is a 
reprehensible set of events. Peace is always made between 
adversaries. And, to see any successful peace through to its 
conclusion, there needs to be accountability for crimes. But 
there also needs to be some measure of setting a new path going 
forward.
    And what lies before us now is whether that is possible in 
this case, and that lies with the parties. We are creating a 
path for them to take and incentives for them to go there. We 
have to do this in a way that is consistent with our rights.
    And if I may, just a tiny digression. Representative Costa, 
you mentioned Dr. Ibadoghlu. We maintain constant vigilance on 
this and insist on his fair treatment. We would like to see him 
released. We will continue to urge that. And I think we will do 
the same on any other human rights issue that comes across in 
our relationship with Azerbaijan. So we do that in a way that 
is consistent with our values.
    And what we are looking for now is a peace agreement that 
reflects the interests of the people of Armenia, and we believe 
those of Azerbaijan, in developing stronger relationships with 
the vibrant economies to their west rather than with the 
autocracies to their north and south.
    Mr. Schneider. Great. Thank you. My time is about expired. 
Thank you for mentioning Dr. Ibadoghlu. And I will mention his 
son Emin is here as well today.
    Mr. Issa. The gentleman yields back.
    And I want to take a moment to personally thank our 
witnesses for their candor. It was a very effective dialog 
because of your willingness to answer fully the questions of 
the committee.
    If there are no further questions from the members, again, 
I thank our witnesses. And the subcommittee may have additional 
written questions for the witnesses, and we would ask that you 
respond in writing if you agree.
    Thank you to the gentlemen.
    Mr. Costa. I would just like to raise a point. One of the 
other things that we mentioned in the letter that we sent, and 
of course with the year approaching, it may have to be the 
following year, but I think the subcommittee should consider 
taking a CODEL to Armenia and to meet with the officials there. 
I think it----
    Mr. Issa. It is noted. Hopefully, the Ambassador will send 
us the appropriate invitation.
    Thank you.
    Ambassador O'Brien. We would welcome it.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you.
    Ambassador O'Brien. Let us organize that, and we will look 
for your letter, too.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you. We look forward to that.
    Pursuant to the committee rules, all members may have 5 
days to submit statements, questions, and extraneous materials 
for the record subject to length limitations.
    Without objection, the subcommittee, as a result, is 
adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 10:56 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                APPENDIX
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         STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY
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       STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM ARMENAN ASSEMBLY OF AMERICA
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            RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
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