[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                     OVERSIGHT OF FEDERAL AGENCIES'
                    POST-PANDEMIC TELEWORK POLICIES
                                PART II

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

    SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS AND THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE

                                 OF THE

                         COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
                           AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                           NOVEMBER 29, 2023
                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-76
                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability
  
  
                    [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]


                       Available on: govinfo.gov
                         oversight.house.gov or
                             docs.house.gov
                             
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                    
54-312 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2024                                
                             

               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman

Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking 
Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Ro Khanna, California
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Katie Porter, California
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Cori Bush, Missouri
Byron Donalds, Florida               Shontel Brown, Ohio
Kelly Armstrong, North Dakota        Jimmy Gomez, California
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
William Timmons, South Carolina      Robert Garcia, California
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Maxwell Frost, Florida
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Lisa McClain, Michigan               Greg Casar, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Dan Goldman, New York
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina        Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Nick Langworthy, New York
Eric Burlison, Missouri

                                 ------                                
                       Mark Marin, Staff Director
       Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
                      Bill Womack, Senior Advisor
                 Alex Rankin, Professional Staff Member
      Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5074

                  Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director
                      Contact Number: 202-225-5051
                                 ------                                

    Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce

                     Pete Sessions, Texas, Chairman
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Kweisi Mfume, Maryland Ranking 
Clay Higgins, Louisiana                  Minority Member
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Byron Donalds, Florida                   Columbia
William Timmons, South Carolina      Maxwell Frost, Florida
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Greg Casar, Texas
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Robert Garcia, California
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina        Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Eric Burlison, Missouri              Jasmine Crockett, Texas
                                     Vacancy
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing held on November 29, 2023................................     1

                               Witnesses

                              ----------                              

Mr. Jeremy Pelter, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Administration, 
  Department of Commerce
Oral Statement...................................................     6

Mr. Bob Leavitt, Deputy Assistant Secretary of Human Resources 
  and Chief Human Capital Officer, Department of Health and Human 
  Services
Oral Statement...................................................     7

Ms. Kathryn Stevens, Acting Chief Human Capital Officer, Agency 
  for International Development
Oral Statement...................................................     9

Mr. Oren ``Hank'' McKnelly, Executive Counselor, Social Security 
  Administration
Oral Statement...................................................    10

Written opening statements and statements for the witnesses are 
  available on the U.S. House of Representatives Document 
  Repository at: docs.house.gov.

                           Index of Documents

                              ----------                              

  * Statement for the Record; submitted by Rep. Connolly.

  * Report, GAO, ``Preliminary Results Show Federal Buildings 
  Remain Underutilized''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.

  * Article, Washington Post, ``Shutdown Prep Is Exhausting 
  Washington''; submitted by Rep. Mfume.

  * Letter, from Military Spouse, dated June 16, 2023, SSA 
  Employment; submitted by Rep. Crocket.

  * Report, GAO, ``Growth Supported Economic Activity During the 
  Pandemic, but Future Impacts Uncertain''; submitted by Rep. 
  Lee.

  * Statement for the Record, American Federation of Government 
  Employees; submitted by Rep. Frost.

  * Questions for , Record: to Mr. Leavitt; submitted by Rep. 
  Sessions.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Leavitt; submitted by Rep. 
  Crockett.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. McKnelly; submitted by Rep. 
  Sessions.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. McKnelly; submitted by Rep. 
  Crockett.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Pelter; submitted by Rep. 
  Sessions.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Pelter; submitted by Rep. 
  Crockett.

  * Questions for the Record: to Ms. Stevens; submitted by Rep. 
  Sessions.

  * Questions for the Record: to Ms. Stevens; submitted by Rep. 
  Crockett.

Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.

 
                     OVERSIGHT OF FEDERAL AGENCIES'
                    POST-PANDEMIC TELEWORK POLICIES
                                PART II

                              ----------                              


                      Wednesday, November 29, 2023

                        House of Representatives

               Committee on Oversight and Accountability

    Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce

                                           Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:17 p.m., in 
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Pete Sessions 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Sessions, Palmer, Higgins, Biggs, 
Donalds, Timmons, Boebert, Edwards, Mfume, Norton, Frost, 
Connolly, Lee, and Crockett.
    Also present: Representative Tlaib.
    Mr. Sessions. The Subcommittee on Government Operations and 
the Federal Workforce will come to order, and I would like to 
welcome everyone to this hearing today.
    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any 
time.
    And I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening 
statement.
    Without objection, Congresswoman Tlaib from Michigan is 
being waived on to the Committee for the purpose of questioning 
the witnesses at today's Subcommittee hearing.
    I would like to welcome everyone to this hearing, a hearing 
that has been postponed a couple of times, and we finally made 
it, so thank you for the witnesses for appearing again today.
    This is a hearing of the House Oversight and Accountability 
Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal 
Workforce.
    We gather for the second hearing around an issue that is 
called telework in Federal agencies. The underlying question 
remains the same: are the telework policies in Federal agencies 
putting mission accomplishment and the taxpayer first? This is 
a question that has been asked by my colleagues. It is a 
constant discussion not only on the Hill, but back in almost 
every single congressional district in America, and it even 
resides in the media.
    In our first hearing we had the opportunity to hear from 
four agencies regarding their approach to telework and its 
impact on Agency mission. These agencies were selected because 
their responses to our Committee inquiries, where we were 
seeking real data about telework, appeared to reflect a good-
faith effort to answer our questions. But honestly, we also 
wanted to use them to find out leading-edge answers to problems 
that we had seen across government and were hoping they could 
lend that ear to us with answers, and many times they did. This 
hearing, however, takes the other end of the spectrum.
    I want to be clear, of the 25 agencies we wrote last 
spring, many responses were, in fact, not responsive. They did 
not respond or severely delayed their response to this 
Government Operations request. Eleven of the 25 did not include 
any figures at all regarding how many of their employees were 
currently teleworking either in Washington, DC, this area, or 
nationwide. This lack of transparency or lack of basic 
knowledge the Administration has about the Federal telework 
workforce raises concerns that every single member on this 
Committee on both sides of the aisle should share and be a part 
of, and I think you will see, by the end of today, we will.
    It is our job to conduct oversight of the executive branch 
on behalf of the American people. And our requests were 
reasonable, they were not ``gotcha'' in any way, and I have 
tried to followup with agencies accordingly to request that 
they please answer the questions and make themselves available. 
Bear in mind, all of these agencies are supposedly putting 
together plans geared toward ``improving organizational health 
and organizational performance,'' and the impact of telework 
for good or bad is supposed to be a part of those plans.
    That OMB guidance further states agencies should develop a 
set of validated indicators that can be routinely measured, 
tracked, and assessed with an organization's senior leadership 
manager, frontline managers, workforce, and stakeholders so 
that they can monitor the organization's effectiveness and 
ability, including resiliency, capacity, and capability to 
perform and adapt themselves. And finally, according to the 
timeline set out in the guidance, activities around these plans 
should be well underway, so it is very difficult for me to 
understand why so many of the responses we receive look nothing 
more than like they were simply just phoning it in. This is a 
serious effort by this Subcommittee. It is and has produced 
questions across both sides of our aisle, Republicans and 
Democrats, and that is why I and Mr. Mfume are here today. 
Either these agencies simply do not know the answers to some or 
all the questions they were asked, or perhaps they just do not 
want to share it.
    In its guidance, OMB called for an increase in meaningful 
in-person work. In our first hearing, we discussed the negative 
impact telework and remote work could have on the new younger 
workers and new workers. So, it was curious that for months 
after this guidance was issued, the White House Chief of Staff 
would need to send an email stressing the need to increase in-
person work. I would like to think that that was a reality 
check by the Chief of Staff of the White House because of 
congressional pressure and pressure from this Committee and 
Subcommittee. The obvious answer would be that he sent the 
email because agencies were not doing what OMB had already 
directed them to do.
    Along with Chairman Jamie Comer and Congresswoman Boebert, 
I sent a letter to Mr. Zients, who is the chief of staff, 
asking a number of questions related to this email. On 
September 19 we received a response but not any answers to our 
questions. Then yesterday, The Wall Street Journal story in 
which an Administration spokesman admitted only two agencies 
had reached their goals in adopting and enforcement of new 
workplace requirements, confirming our suspicion. In our first 
hearing, we heard that agencies are trying to figure out the 
right mix of telework and in-person work, but the President 
himself is telling Federal employees to please get back to 
work, and they simply are not coming. Perhaps now Mr. Biden is 
more sympathetic in his concerns that Mr. Trump raised about 
Federal workforce wintering the policies of the chief 
executive.
    Today is another step in understanding the Federal telework 
situation, but I cannot say that I am confident that the Biden 
Administration has a handle or even control over that, but we 
will see what today yields. And with that, I would like to 
yield for any time he would choose to take, the Subcommittee 
Ranking Member, Mr. Mfume, for his opening statement. Mr. 
Mfume?
    Mr. Mfume. Yes, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for 
your work on helping to get us back to this point. This is part 
two of a process, and I want it to be on the record by 
indicating that we on this side of the aisle welcome the 
opportunity to conclude, if not finish completely, the 
discussions and the oversight that we have had on this matter.
    I want to set the tone of this hearing by focusing on two 
words, and that is, ``efficiency and effectiveness,'' and I 
believe that members of this Subcommittee work together to 
execute that mission to the best of our abilities. And so, on 
behalf of the people we serve, you will hear me reiterate again 
those words, ``effective and efficient,'' throughout this 
hearing. To that extent, I expect each Agency to operate and 
execute their unique mission effectively and efficiently, 
whether their employees are working entirely remotely, or 
working hybrid, or telework schedules that require some in-
person working as well.
    During the pandemic that we were all so happy to get behind 
us, government agencies increased their dependence on telework 
and remote work agreements, finding ways to serve the Nation in 
the midst of a deadly public health crisis. Earlier this year, 
as I indicated, we hosted part one of this hearing series. And 
our agency witnesses made it clear to those of us who were 
present that prioritizing data collection to gauge and improve 
their performance was absolutely critical to ensuring that the 
agencies' workforce policies drive exceptional service. We 
believe, I know I certainly do, and I think that many of you do 
also, that the American people deserve the best performance 
that agencies can provide. This Subcommittee, hence then, we 
will really not tolerate, nor should we, inexcusable things 
like absenteeism that is undocumented, or poor productivity 
with no plan to increase it, or some of the horror stories that 
we have seen as we follow this issue.
    As one who has fought valiantly to make sure that our 
agencies are protected and supported, I am really pleased to 
learn that those same agencies that came before us possess, or 
at least say they do, the tracking systems necessary and are 
employing the metrics necessary to gauge employee performance. 
So, the last thing I want to do is to force agencies to adopt 
policies that are not conducive to their mission or that fail 
to attract and retain top talent. As I have said before, I 
encourage agencies that can increase in-person work, as the 
President has stated repeatedly, to do so as necessary for the 
successful delivery of their agencies' mission.
    Meanwhile, and concurrently, getting the House of 
Representatives and the floor of the House moving again by 
passing a continuing resolution was only half of the battle 
that we face here in the Congress. We have, as most of you 
know, roughly 8 weeks before we are faced with another possible 
government shutdown, and that, my friends, is not efficient or 
effective. We are now in a permanent state of lurching from one 
near-government shutdown to another looming one on the horizon. 
And we know that short-term, temporary spending bills can and 
often do create unnecessary work and uncertainty for Federal 
agencies and for our constituents who rely on those agencies 
for lifesaving programs.
    Mr. Chairman, I would ask unanimous consent to insert in 
the record a recent Washington Post article about the massive 
headaches that successive shutdown threats cause the Federal 
workers, agencies, and contractors.
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you. If Congress cannot pass an 
appropriations package, agency employees will be rendered 
hopelessly unproductive because you cannot work when the 
government is shut down, and you certainly cannot work when you 
are furloughed. So, I hope that for the sake of our military 
and civilian workforce, for the sake of our Nation, that we do 
not get to that point.
    So today, we, in part two, are examining whether four 
Federal agencies, including the Social Security Administration, 
have, indeed, the right workforce policies in place to serve 
our communities. SSA has suffered from under-investment over 
the years. In fact, the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities 
reports that despite a 21-percent increase in Social Security 
beneficiaries, the Social Security operating budget fell by 13 
percent. So an increase in beneficiaries of 21 percent, a 
decrease in the operating budget by 13 percent, and that is 
over the last 11 years. That is an increased workload, but 
obviously with fewer resources.
    So, I would encourage my colleagues to keep in mind, 
hopefully, as we move forward with this funding agreement that 
hampering agencies like the Social Security Agency and those of 
you before us today is not something that is a byproduct of the 
hearing. I hope that we are able to, as I said before, operate 
and have this hearing to produce efficient and effective 
answers. Oversight is extremely important, and I would strongly 
urge those of you who are following up on the part one that 
took place of this, that the request from Members of Congress 
for information, specific information that came out of that 
hearing, is, in fact, delivered to the Committee.
    Mr. Chairman, I do not have anything else at this point. I 
would yield back the balance of my time.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Mr. 
Mfume, I want to thank you for your comments, and I think 
effective and being efficient is important. I would also point 
to, as we could point to and should point to round one, that we 
think that the Passport Office and the IRS, which perhaps could 
be called Exhibit A of issues that Members of Congress had, I 
think have improved. I think our hearing did help, and I think 
getting information does help, so it is my hope that we will be 
equally successful today.
    I am now pleased to introduce today's witnesses. First, we 
have Jeremy Pelter, serves as Deputy Assistant Secretary for 
Administration at the U.S. Department of Commerce and is 
currently also performing the non-exclusive functions and 
duties of the Department's Chief Financial Officer and 
Assistant Secretary for Administration. In his role, Mr. Pelter 
oversees the management administration service functions for 
the Department. Mr. Pelter, welcome. Pelter, excuse me.
    Then we have Bob Leavitt, serves as Deputy Assistant 
Secretary of Human Resources and Chief Human Capital Officer 
for the United States Department of Health and Human Services. 
In his role, Mr. Leavitt is responsible for recruitment, 
development, and retention of the Health and Human Services 
workforce. Welcome, Mr. Leavitt.
    We have Kathryn Stevens, serves as Acting Chief Human 
Capital Officer for the United States Agency for International 
Development. Prior to this, Ms. Stevens was USAID's Senior 
Deputy Assistant Administrator in the Office of Human Capital 
and Talent Management, where she led the Agency's promotion, 
performance management, and staff care efforts, among other 
areas. We are delighted that you are here, and welcome.
    Last, we have Oren Hank McKnelly, serves as Executive 
Counselor to the Acting Commissioner of Social Security 
Administration. In this role, Mr. McKnelly works to optimize 
law, policy, and regulations for SSA in a number of areas, 
including COVID-19 workplace safety, re-entry, labor relations, 
and oversight of the Agency's implementation of the various 
executive order. We are delighted that you are all here.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), I would ask that the 
witnesses now rise and raise their right hand, and I will 
administer the oath.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you 
are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God?
    [A chorus of ayes.]
    Mr. Sessions. Let the record show that the witnesses, when 
they say, ``I do,'' all answered in the affirmative, please. 
Thank you. It is not that I am hard of hearing, I just was not 
paying attention. Thank you very much. Please let that record 
show that they all answered in the affirmative, and thank you. 
You may take your seat.
    We appreciate each of you being here today. We look forward 
to your testimony. And let me remind the witnesses that we have 
read your written statements, and they will appear in full in 
the hearing record. Please limit your oral testimony to about 5 
minutes, although I am more interested in a correct answer and 
you responding through. So I tend to be a little bit less, or 
what I would say, more lenient on trying to make sure that both 
Member and the witness have a chance to properly answer.
    As a reminder, please note that you have a button in front 
of you on the microphone, and when it is on, Members can hear 
you. When it is not, we cannot. So, when you speak, the light 
in front of you will turn green, and after about 4 minutes the 
light will turn yellow. When the red light comes on, it is 
about time to wrap up your statements.
    I recognize now Mr. Pelter for his opening statement. And 
if I butchered anyone's name, I apologize, but if you will 
correct me on the record, you are free to do that. The Chair 
now recognize the gentleman for 5 minutes.

                       STATEMENT OF JEREMY PELTER

             DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION

                         DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE

    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member 
Mfume, and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you 
for the opportunity to testify about the Department of 
Commerce's telework and remote work policies.
    I am pleased to report that Department of Commerce is hard 
at work. The Department's nearly 50,000 personnel work across 
the country and around the world to improve the conditions for 
economic growth and opportunity for all communities, and to 
advance the Nation's economic and national security. Over the 
last 3 years alone, we announced over $46 billion in funding to 
expand access to reliable, affordable high speed internet 
services. We implemented significant export controls in 
response to Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine and built a 
global export control coalition implementing substantially 
similar controls.
    We implemented export controls on certain advanced 
computing and semiconductor manufacturing items destined to the 
People's Republic of China, as well as restricted certain 
supercomputer and semiconductor end uses as part of the 
Department's broader effort to counter the PRC's civil military 
fusion strategy and abuse of human rights. We also completed 
and transmitted the results of the 2020 Census to the President 
and Congress. We awarded over $560 million to coastal and Great 
Lakes grantees as part of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law's 
Climate-Ready Coasts initiative.
    We announced two notice of funding opportunities in 
connection with the bipartisan CHIPS and Science Act, which 
will help revitalize the U.S. semiconductor industry. We 
established programs to invest over $2 billion in American 
communities through innovative place-based economic 
development, among many other accomplishments. And we replaced 
our legacy patent application filing and management system with 
a significantly modernized patent center for easier public use.
    The Department continues to successfully accomplish our 
mission while finding appropriate balance and incentivizing our 
workforce. And I would like to just briefly acknowledge our 
employees for what they do to ensure this Department continues 
its critical work while maintaining the highest level of 
professional excellence. From artificial intelligence to tech 
hubs, supply chain, to weather and economic forecasting, our 
Agency is leading the way in predicting and shaping the future.
    I want to stress at the outset that the Department deeply 
values the benefits of in-person work. Many employees work in 
person 5 days a week. Department policy generally requires 
career employees in the Office of the Secretary to work in the 
office at least 3 days a week with no more than 2 days of 
routine telework, while political appointees are expected to 
work in the office at least 4 days a week with no more than 1 
day of routine telework. Department bureaus and offices may not 
depart from this baseline policy without approval, which may be 
granted based on specific mission needs and circumstances. I 
often see and experience the moments that illustrate the value 
of in-person work. Those moments add up, and we believe that 
the Department is better positioned to achieve its mission, 
both in the short term and over the long term when employees 
spend substantial time together in the office.
    At the same time, telework has been a part of the 
Department's culture across multiple administrations. For 
example, in 2018, during the Trump Administration, the 
Department adopted a telework policy that encouraged 
supervisors to allow telework-ready employees to participate in 
regular recurring telework at least 2 days per pay period. And 
in March 2020, as the realities of the COVID-19 global pandemic 
set in, the Department, like public and private employers 
across the country, shifted its operations first to a mandatory 
telework posture and, months later, to a maximum telework 
posture.
    As outlined in detail in my written testimony, the 
Department now operates in a hybrid posture that is designed to 
help us retain and motivate our employees by providing 
flexibility to a workforce changed by the pandemic, but which 
also embraces the many benefits of in-person engagement and 
team building. Following the Secretary's return to office 
announcement in March 2022, the Department's headquarters saw 
the average daily occupancy increase from 24 percent in the 
third quarter of Fiscal Year 2022 to now 42 percent, ending the 
fourth quarter of Fiscal Year 2023, the most recent full 
quarter. The Department anticipates that this upward trend will 
continue. Additionally, the preliminary findings from a GAO 
inquiry placed the Department in the top quartile of CFO Act 
agencies for utilizing headquarters buildings.
    In closing, the Department is committed to thoughtfully and 
continually evaluating its telework policies in order to inform 
our strategy of incentivizing and protecting our workforce, on 
delivering on our mission, and being accountable stewards of 
Federal property and tax dollars. Thank you for the opportunity 
to testify here today, and I look forward to your questions.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much, Mr. Pelter. Mr. Leavitt, 
you are recognized for 5 minutes.

                        STATEMENT OF BOB LEAVITT

             DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HUMAN RESOURCES

                    AND CHIEF HUMAN CAPITAL OFFICER

                DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES

    Mr. Leavitt. Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member Mfume, and 
Members of the Subcommittee, thank you all for what you do, and 
thank you for the opportunity to testify here today on behalf 
of the Department of Health and Human Services. My name is Bob 
Leavitt. I serve as Deputy Assistant Secretary of Human 
Resources and Chief Human Capital Officer. I am responsible for 
supporting the Department's recruitment, development, and 
retention of the Department's talented and dedicated workforce.
    Prior to joining HHS, I served 25 years supporting foreign 
assistance programs and national security policy. As a career 
civil servant, I am proud to support over 90,000 mission-driven 
employees across HHS who work tirelessly to enhance the health 
and well-being of all Americans. I appreciate this opportunity 
to discuss how HHS continues to deliver for the American people 
while supporting its large and diverse workforce.
    As we all know, the COVID-19 pandemic reshaped the 
workplace for many Americans, including many HHS employees. At 
the same time, thousands of our frontline health workers, lab 
technicians, researchers and other mission-critical employees 
never left their work onsite, even at the height of the 
pandemic. And today, regardless of where one works, HHS 
employees are working full time to deliver programs and 
services that are essential for promoting the health and well-
being of all Americans, and they are delivering results, 
results that matter. We established the new nationwide 988 
suicide prevention and drug crisis lifeline. Over the past year 
alone, 988 has answered 5 million calls, texts, and chats, 
providing 24/7 crisis support. We implemented a record-breaking 
open enrollment period in which over 16 million Americans 
selected a marketplace health plan, and we oversaw the 
distribution of over 1 billion COVID-19 vaccine doses across 
the country.
    This is only a snapshot of the Department's 
accomplishments. As we continue delivering on our mission, HHS 
pursues policies that allow for workplace flexibilities that 
balance in-office time needed to collaborate and build a strong 
workplace culture with the necessary workplace flexibilities. 
We are proud that HHS is consistently rated as one of the best 
places to work in the Federal Government for large agencies, 
and we strive to create a workplace that works for everyone, 
one that both prioritizes employee well-being, employee 
engagement, and one that fulfills our mission. To that end, 
workplace flexibility has helped us attract, support, and 
retain a talented, engaged, and diverse workforce. These 
flexibilities are often especially important for service 
members, veterans, military spouses, those with disabilities, 
among others. For example, workplace flexibilities help us 
retain military spouses regardless of where their families move 
throughout the country in service to the American people. This 
year, we increased the number of military spouses hired by 36 
percent.
    The Department is also strategically planning for our 
workforce of the future. Like other agencies, workplace 
flexibilities help us remain competitive with the private 
sector, and workplace flexibilities matter to the talent that 
we need to deliver on our mission today and into the future. As 
we look ahead, we are continually working to optimize our 
organizational health and organizational performance, and we 
are committed to continuing to increase our meaningful in-
office work.
    This fall, we increased in-office presence at headquarters 
in the National Capital Region, Atlanta, and Baltimore, and 
that same expectation applies to offices outside of 
headquarters this winter. And I would like to assure the 
Subcommittee that we take organizational health and 
organizational employee performance seriously, regardless of 
where one works. The Department manages the employee 
performance process through clearly established expectations 
and assessments. We hold supervisors accountable for ensuring 
the performance of the teams and employees they supervise.
    Over the past few years, colleagues across HHS have helped 
lead the country through the pandemic. They demonstrate 
unwavering resilience and dedication, while remaining steadfast 
to the Department's mission. We are proud of the work that they 
accomplish every day in service to the American people. And I 
am proud and humbled to work in support of them and in support 
of our H.R. colleagues across the Department. Thank you.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Leavitt, thank you very much. Ms. 
Stevens, we are delighted that you are here. The gentlewoman is 
recognized for 5 minutes.

                      STATEMENT OF KATHRYN STEVENS

                   ACTING CHIEF HUMAN CAPITAL OFFICER

                  AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

    Ms. Stevens. Thank you, Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member 
Mfume, and Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for the 
opportunity to testify on behalf of----
    Mr. Sessions. Excuse me, just a moment, please. Does the 
gentlewoman have her microphone on?
    Ms. Stevens. It sure is on, I think. The light is on.
    Mr. Sessions. OK. We were having a little bit of trouble up 
here. So, is that a little better?
    Ms. Stevens. Should I move it? OK. Thank you.
    Mr. Sessions. That would be of great assistance. Thank you 
very much. The gentlewoman may continue.
    Ms. Stevens. Right. Thank you. We appreciate the 
opportunity to share how USAID's dedicated workforce represents 
the generosity of the American people and addressed 
unprecedented global challenges both efficiently and 
effectively. Since our founding in 1961, USAID has extended the 
reach of peace, prosperity, and human dignity globally. We are 
immensely grateful to Congress for your continued bipartisan 
support in that mission. Our work is a demonstration to the 
world that America cares and delivers like no other country 
can. It also matters to Americans here at home. It makes us 
safer and more prosperous, engenders goodwill worldwide, and 
creates a better shared future for generations to come.
    USAID's reach spans 80 countries with over 13,000 staff. We 
are unique in having a workforce that is passionately connected 
to our humanitarian and development mission. Eighty-eight 
percent of our team reported a deep connection to mission on a 
survey conducted in 2022. Our ability to accomplish our mission 
depends on our most valuable asset, and that is our people, 
people who over the past 3 years have responded to 75 crises in 
more than 70 countries, contributed to a remarkable 58 percent 
decline in under-5 child mortality worldwide, and providing 
clean drinking water to nearly 65 million people. Today, our 
team is delivering lifesaving humanitarian aid to Palestinian 
civilians, helping to shore up conditions for the Ukrainian 
people and their economy in the midst of Russia's brutal war, 
and responding to natural disasters in real time, such as the 
recent earthquakes in Turkey and Syria and the hurricane in 
Mexico.
    To further strengthen our global workforce, we are reducing 
our reliance on short-term employment contracts, stepping up 
recruitment and retention measures, and streamlining 
bureaucratic processes that undermine our effectiveness. We are 
also doing more to support and strengthen our locally hired 
workforce in over 80 countries, given the vital role that they 
play in achieving our mission as they make up over 70 percent 
of our overseas workforce. USAID is also modernizing our 
operations, including reducing our physical space footprint at 
headquarters and utilizing secure technology platforms to keep 
our teams connected. We have received eight A grades on GAO's 
FITARA Scorecard, in part due to our success in moving to a 
secure government cloud more than a decade ago. All of this is 
an essential foundation of a flexible hybrid global workplace.
    As elsewhere in the USG, our domestic team had the option 
to telework prior to the pandemic. During the height of the 
COVID emergency, most of our staff were in maximum telework 
status. Since then, we have updated our workplace flexibilities 
to better meet the operational needs of the Agency, allowing 
for a balance of in-person work and telework. These 
flexibilities are a vital recruitment and retention tool. We 
know that the scale of the global challenges that USAID 
addresses requires increased in-person collaboration. So, we 
leveraged OMB's directive on workplace presence to increase our 
domestic in-office footprint to 3 days a week starting in late 
September.
    Retaining this flexibility has positioned USAID to attract, 
to retain, and invest in a crisis-ready development and 
humanitarian team. The new policy has helped us to strengthen 
our One USAID Culture post-pandemic, as well as to support the 
many new and junior staff hired over the last 3 years. We are 
very proud of our progress to date, and we are continuing to 
monitor how it is going through the Organizational Health Index 
and make adjustments where necessary.
    In conclusion, our balanced policy of workplace flexibility 
is essential to delivering on our ambitious global mission. 
Thank you, and I would be very happy to answer any questions.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much. Mr. McKnelly, welcome. 
We are delighted that you are here. The gentleman is recognized 
for 5 minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF OREN ``HANK'' MCKNELLY

                          EXECUTIVE COUNSELOR

                     SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION

    Mr. McKnelly. Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member Mfume, and 
Members of the Subcommittee, I am Hank McKnelly, Executive 
Counselor to the Commissioner of the Social Security 
Administration. Thank you for inviting me to discuss telework 
in SSA.
    For over 20 years we have had telework to some degree at 
our Agency. Our telework policy is the same now as it was 
before the pandemic. Our hybrid work approach supports our 
mission. We are a public-facing organization. Thus, our 
frontline employees report onsite to serve the public in 
person. Each day our dedicated staff serve field office 
visitors, answer questions by phone, hold hearings, pay 
benefits, and complete numerous other workloads to provide the 
public with the benefits and services they have earned and 
need.
    Regardless of where our employees are located, they are 
working. Still, telework is not one-size-fits-all. Rather, it 
is based on business needs. Before the pandemic, many employees 
teleworked regularly and had their laptops at home in 
anticipation of weather or other emergency-required telework 
days. During the COVID-19 pandemic, telework allowed us to 
protect the public and our employees while continuing to 
provide critical services. We know that many people rely on our 
in-person services, while others prefer to reach us online and 
by phone.
    For example, we began offering online video hearings, using 
software that allows hearing participation from any private 
location using a smartphone, tablet, or computer. Today 80 
percent of our claimants continue to voluntarily elect a 
hearing option that does not require travel to our offices. 
Meanwhile, we ended Fiscal Year 2023 with the lowest level of 
pending cases since 2000 and are on track to reduce the average 
wait for a hearing decision to our goal of 270 days. This is an 
example of how our service is evolving and how our hybrid work 
approach continues to support our mission.
    Agency leadership determines which positions are telework 
eligible, and the frequency is based on the nature of the 
position and business needs. Our telework practices, policies, 
and bargaining agreements guide management in determining the 
appropriate workplace flexibilities to accomplish our mission 
efficiently and effectively. We have longstanding service 
metrics and management information systems that capture our 
workloads. Managers use these tools to monitor employee 
performance and ensure we are serving the public regardless of 
physical location. To meet the needs for in-person service or 
other onsite work needs like training, our managers can change, 
suspend, or recall telework employees. Managers are accountable 
for ensuring work is accomplished and addressing any 
performance issues.
    We continue to evaluate the right mix of hybrid work that 
provides responsive public service while also aligning the 
evolution of work and attracting and retaining talented 
employees. To capitalize on the benefits of being together in 
person, the Acting Commissioner has decided to increase the 
onsite presence in headquarters' offices for managers and 
supervisors.
    The Agency faces service challenges worsened by the 
pandemic. Our budget drives the level of customer service we 
can deliver. Our employees are doing their part to restore and 
improve service while working within our current funding 
levels. Building the capacity to meet the public's expectations 
for timely customer service requires sustained and sufficient 
funding and staffing levels. To provide the best customer 
service, we must continuously evaluate factors, such as how the 
public is choosing to engage with us, how to best connect our 
employees with our mission, and what it will take to recruit 
and retain top talent, and, above all, how these and other 
metrics help us serve the public.
    Again, I appreciate the opportunity to speak with you and 
look forward to your questions.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. McKnelly, thank you very much. I want to 
thank the panel for their forthright presentation to us. And 
next I like to go to the distinguished gentleman from Alabama, 
the Chairman of the Republican Policy Committee, Mr. Palmer. 
Mr. Palmer, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want each one of you 
to just quickly answer this. What percentage of your D.C.-based 
Federal employees relocated out of state during the COVID 
pandemic? Do you have an idea of Mr. Pelter?
    Mr. Pelter. I do not have a specific account. We know it 
was----
    Mr. Palmer. I am just asking for an estimate, percentage-
wise. You do not have to give me a specific account.
    Mr. Pelter. It was very low. Very low.
    Mr. Palmer. Very low. How about you, Mr. Leavitt?
    Mr. Leavitt. I do not have the exact number offhand. I 
would anticipate a similar low number.
    Mr. Palmer. OK. Ms. Stevens?
    Ms. Stevens. Also, very low for USAID. Three percent of our 
domestic workforce relocated outside the DMV, but it was a bit 
of a wash because 2 percent moved into the DMV during that 
timeframe.
    Mr. Palmer. OK. Mr. McKnelly?
    Mr. McKnelly. Very low as well.
    Mr. Palmer. OK. I would like to get an idea of what that is 
because it also impacts locality pay, but I want to ask 
something else. And particularly, Mr. Leavitt and Mr. McKnelly, 
one of the things that concerns me is, I have done a lot of 
work on inefficiencies in the Federal Government, particularly 
resulting in improper payments. And one of the main causes for 
improper payment is that many of our agencies have antiquated 
data systems. So, we are now probably in the range of $250 
billion, $300 billion a year in improper payments. Health and 
Human Services has a lot of that improper payment problem, 
particularly with Medicare and Medicaid. Social Security is not 
exempt from it either. I would like to know, have you tracked 
your Agency's amount of improper payments, and particularly in 
context of the number of people who are not working in the 
office that are working remotely. Mr. Leavitt?
    Mr. Leavitt. Thank you for your question. We share your 
commitment to ensure that we are both efficient and effective--
--
    Mr. Palmer. I would rather if you just give me a direct 
answer.
    Mr. Leavitt. And we do have systems in place to ensure that 
we are tracking the locality rate of the employees to ensure 
the----
    Mr. Palmer. That is not what I just asked you. I am asking 
you, are you keeping up with improper payments because your 
Agency has the biggest share of improper payments, and it is a 
combination of things. It is antiquated data system, which is a 
problem if you are working remotely, unless you have upgraded 
your systems. But it is also administrative errors as failure 
to verify eligibility, particularly in Medicare and Medicaid. 
Have you looked at this in the context of not having people in 
the office working on these things? Has your rate of improper 
payments gone up or down?
    Mr. Leavitt. I cannot speak to that example----
    Mr. Palmer. OK. How about you, Mr. McKnelly?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question.
    Mr. Palmer. Turn on your microphone, please.
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. I also cannot 
speak to the question on the record at this particular point in 
time.
    Mr. Palmer. OK. Mr. Chairman, I think that I would like for 
these gentlemen to respond in writing to this question. I would 
like a detailed answer on your improper payments, and I want to 
kind of deviate on this----
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Palmer, let me answer your question is 
that Mr. Mfume and I do intend that the witnesses would, 
because they have staff available, understand that we would be 
expecting that in writing back to the Committee within 15 days. 
And we will state that not only during the hearing at the end, 
but we will also state it in writing. Thank you.
    Mr. Palmer. Reclaiming my time, and thank you, Mr. 
Chairman, and thank you, Mr. Mfume, as well.
    I would like to know, too, about productivity measurements 
because one of the things that becomes a problem with remote 
working is you lose productivity. And I have heard some of you 
in your testimony say that your preference is for people to be 
in the office because it is a more conducive and productive 
working environment. So, have you done anything to measure 
productivity? Mr. Pelter?
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Congressman. We certainly experience 
some work that is more productive in person as well as some 
work that can be produced just as effectively and efficiently.
    Mr. Palmer. But have you----
    Mr. Pelter. Yes.
    Mr. Palmer. Have you done an internal audit to determine 
whether or not your productivity has been impacted by people 
not coming into the office? It is a very simple question. 
Either you have or you have not.
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you. I would not use the phrase, sir, 
``internal audit.'' However, I do generally look at three 
tiers: first, the strategic plan that our Secretary has put in 
place and whether or not we are meeting those objectives, or--
--
    Mr. Palmer. OK. Then Mr. Chairman, I think we need to get 
an answer from each one of our witnesses as to whether or not 
productivity has improved, declined, stayed the same because I 
think it is important that productivity be a part of this 
analysis of whether or not it is in the best interest of the 
American taxpayers to have the people who work for them working 
remotely. And my time has expired and I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Palmer, thank you very much. I consider 
that a fair question, would ask that each of our witnesses 
understand that that would be a part of a letter that we will 
be sending, requesting that data and information for you to 
respond to.
    The gentleman now yields back his time. The gentlewoman, 
Ms. Norton, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I 
particularly appreciate our witnesses for coming forward today. 
I do want to note that chronic understaffing and starving 
agencies of much-needed resources is the cause of service 
backlogs, not the telework policies that are so often blamed. 
As I did at this Subcommittee's last hearing on this subject, I 
would like to use my time to highlight critical work performed 
by Federal employees every single day and the increasing 
efficiency we see. Federal employees deserve praise for their 
dedication and service, not derision.
    I have introduced a resolution praising Federal employees 
and highlighting their important work. Federal employees should 
be applauded for their tireless work and extensive efforts on 
behalf of the American people. Thousands of civilian Federal 
employees have given their lives in the line of duty for their 
country. Federal employees have supported, defended, and been 
indispensable to the progress the United States has achieved 
through times of war, and peace, and recession, and prosperity. 
Yet some of my Republican friends have been criticizing Federal 
employees at a time, yet again, when they are pushing the 
country toward a government shutdown early next year in order 
to dramatically cut investments in critical Federal employees 
and to--and programs rather--and to impose harmful policy 
riders.
    A shutdown would harm the economy, critical employee 
programs and services, Federal employees and Federal contract 
workers. Some Republicans have made it clear they want to cut 
the Civil Service System, which ensures nonpartisan merit pays 
for professional Federal workforce, and turn it into a 
patronage system. Instead of attacking Federal employees, we 
must be marking up my bill to combat Federal pay compression. I 
yield the remainder of my time.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time. Thank 
you very much. By the way, just for people's information, Mr. 
Mfume had something else that he had to go, so Ms. Norton is 
sitting in as the Ranking Member, and, Ms. Norton, thank you 
very much.
    Ms. Norton. Pleased to do it.
    Mr. Sessions. As the Member of Congress from Washington, 
DC, you have a lot riding on not just the success of people 
being at work, but the success of many constituents, and we 
respect that very much. We now move to the distinguished 
gentleman from Louisiana. Mr. Higgins, is recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ladies and gentlemen, 
ma'am, gentlemen, thank you for being here today. Somewhat of a 
hot seat you are in as we attempt to effectively review the 
impact of teleworking on the Federal bureaucracies is what we 
are targeting here, is like your sworn service to the citizenry 
of America. And as representatives, you know a large part of 
our work that the ladies and gentlemen on both sides of the 
aisle are very dedicated to is constituent services. So, when 
we are referencing failures within bureaucracies, do not take 
this personally, but it is very personal to our constituents 
because it is their lives.
    And, Mr. McKnelly, you are in the hottest of the hot seats 
right now because Social Security in our elders, it is some of 
our most vulnerable, most alone. They generally shy away from, 
shall we say, cyber skills and online applications. It can be 
overwhelming to our elders that are dealing with health issues 
and loneliness, and when their Social Security payments are 
interrupted, or they have to go through what you would say was 
reasonable, or this is our process, and it is online, and it is 
electronic, and it is 21st century, and it is modern, it is 
efficient, to them it is like a brick wall they cannot get 
past, and this is where human contact is incredibly important.
    And I would suggest to all of my fellow Americans that 
serve one of the alphabet bureaucracies of our Nation, let me 
say that teleworking, although it certainly has its place, you 
know, we got used to the virtual things. Some of us never liked 
it. Well, we got good at it during COVID, and there is no doubt 
it has its place in our evolving society, in the workforce. But 
as you shift toward teleworking, as we approach the quantum 
era, you are one step away from being replaced by AI because if 
there is no requirement for human-to-human contact, why do we 
need a human at home as we approach AI? Think about that 
because we are discussing this in Congress.
    When a human being working in your office needs to consult 
with another human being, and they are in the office, Mr. 
McKnelly, they not walk a few feet to the next desk and say, 
did you take a look at this, or what is your opinion on that? 
Doesn't that happen?
    Mr. McKnelly. Yes, it does.
    Mr. Higgins. So, with teleworking, wouldn't that human-to-
human interaction be interrupted?
    Mr. McKnelly. So, I agree that this is a people business, 
and that we need to be connected to your constituents and make 
sure that they get the services they need.
    Mr. Higgins. OK. Services they need. Not to interrupt you 
but this is not the Senate, so they limit us to 5 minutes, 
which they are pretty smart about, by the way.
    In your opening statement, sir, I am quoting you, you quote 
strong performance management and accountability, say employees 
have been working a combination of onsite work and telework to 
meet the evolving needs of the public. You say, ``Our ability 
to move work electronically and provide seamless service allows 
us to operate more efficiently.'' But my caseworker is telling 
me so many of these ladies been on the job for a long time--
they have no reason to lie to me--wait times for processing has 
increased. In some cases, they are waiting a year to get 
answers.
    So, you are telling Congress that you are a rolling man, 
you are efficient, and teleworking is helping. By the way, we 
need more money, but wait times are getting longer and longer. 
So, I give you the remainder of my time to please respond to 
that. How do you match what you are describing as your 
efficiency and performance with what we are seeing in the field 
back home?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for your question. I think the 
principal contributing factors to what we are experiencing in 
the field office is a combination of what we saw during the 
pandemic as well as years and years of understaffing in our 
field offices. But to your point about the person-to-person 
contact, what I would offer to you is that our field office 
employees, 26,000 strong, who see the public in person, those 
individuals report onsite at least 3 days a week. So, we value 
the in-person connection that we have with your constituents 
and want to serve them as effectively as possible.
    Mr. Higgins. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired, but let me 
just close by saying 3 days a week is what we used to call a 
week off, and that is sort of the mentality that we are 
combating here, and we are respectfully trying to address. Mr. 
Chairman, I yield.
    Mr. Sessions. The distinguished gentleman yields back his 
time. The distinguished gentleman from Florida, Mr. Frost, is 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Frost. Federal agencies carry out critical missions of 
all kinds, protecting us from those who wish to do us harm, 
keeping our food free from contamination, finding cures for 
deadly viruses, and getting Americans the checks that they 
deserve. The Federal Government must remain open, operational, 
and ready to serve the American people, even in the most 
turbulent of times. That means not shutting down the 
government. That means properly funding Medicare, Medicaid, 
Social Security. That means setting up Federal employees to 
administer those benefits to our constituents. Every Member of 
Congress should recognize the damage that is done when the 
government cannot operate.
    Deputy Assistant Secretary Leavitt, what is COOP, or C-O-O-
P, and why is it important?
    Mr. Leavitt. Continuity of Operations is absolutely 
critical for us to be able to move ahead through any type of a 
crisis, such as the pandemic. And it was thanks to the practice 
of telework and those flexible opportunities that we were able 
to sustain operations through the pandemic and even increased 
outcome. So, with regards to efficiency and effectiveness, 1-
800-MEDICARE, we reduced wait times and increased customer 
satisfaction up to 95 percent compared to prior to the 
pandemic. Telework readiness, workplace flexibilities matter 
for the customers we serve.
    Mr. Frost. And in 2010, there was a Republican majority in 
the House of Representatives. They passed a piece of 
legislation entitled the Telework Enhancement Act. Can you talk 
a little bit about that?
    Mr. Leavitt. That work recognized the importance of 
flexibilities in supporting continuity of operations and how 
workplace flexibility support not just the workplace, but 
performance overall. And, for example, for us as a Department, 
Department of Health and Human Services, we are proud to 
consistently be ranked as one of the best places to serve in 
the Federal Government for large agencies. And there is a 
correlation between employee engagement and the attention to 
employee well-being and their performance and the results that 
we are able to deliver. Workplace flexibilities matter in 
delivering well-being, engagement for the workforce, and their 
ability to perform and be productive in support of all 
Americans.
    Mr. Frost. And in that piece of legislation passed by the 
Republican majority, correct me if I am wrong, but it required 
telework to be a part of the continuity of operations plan. Is 
that correct?
    Mr. Leavitt. Yes, it is.
    Mr. Frost. To all of our witnesses, briefly, I would like 
to know how the Telework Enhancement Act helped your agencies 
continue operations when the pandemic hit. We can start with 
Mr. McKnelly.
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. The telework 
regime that we put in place in the Telework Enhancement Act 
allowed us to continue operations, you know, seamlessly to 
provide the Social Security Administration beneficiaries with 
the services they needed throughout the course of the pandemic. 
It was invaluable.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you.
    Ms. Stevens. Thank you for the question. For USAID, 
telework was important prior to the pandemic, and it continued 
to be important, in fact, vital to during the pandemic and 
beyond.
    Mr. Frost. Of course. Thank you.
    Mr. Leavitt. And telework remains absolutely fundamental in 
workplace flexibilities overall for our ability to serve.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you.
    Mr. Pelter. I think similar to my colleagues, it allowed us 
to quickly deploy our workforce to maintain our operations and 
avoid any significant disruptions to our mission-essential 
functions.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you. So, telework has been a fact of 
government for decades, and it has been implemented with 
bipartisan support. Access to telework helps us keep our 
government open. Mr. McKnelly, at the Social Security 
Administration, does telework mean that you can reduce office 
space?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. I believe the 
hybrid work environment does allow us to optimize space and, in 
certain cases, we can redirect those savings into serving more 
people.
    Mr. Frost. And just this one Agency on property alone, how 
much would you say that you all have saved?
    Mr. McKnelly. Over the last 10 years, $60 million in co-
lease cost avoidance, and we anticipate another $35 million a 
year in the next 4 years.
    Mr. Frost. And according to the GSA, because of telework, 
on property alone, more than $1 billion in taxpayer money has 
been saved over just 2 years because of telework. We need to 
ensure that Federal workers can get the job done, particularly 
during a crisis like a pandemic, whether it is local, regional, 
or global. Telework is one tool in the toolbox, one tool to 
maintain continuity and attract cutting edge talent. And, you 
know, many of my colleagues believe that the country should be 
run like a business. Another question: do top businesses and 
tech companies utilize telework to boost efficiency and attract 
talent? Anybody?
    Mr. Leavitt. Yes, and that is one reason why workplace 
flexibilities are very important for us to compete and 
participate in what is a very competitive labor market today 
and well into the future.
    Mr. Frost. Yes. I remember speaking with NASA about this, 
the fact that SpaceX has one of the most robust telework 
policies in that industry, and Elon is their boy, so you know, 
I mean, I would like to see us continue to support that. To 
equate telework to laziness is both disrespectful to Federal 
employees who are doing their jobs every day to ensure that our 
constituents can get what they need, and shows an inability to 
actually solve the real problems that our Federal agencies 
face. There are problems and we need to fix them, but this is 
not the way. Thank you so much. I yield back, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. The 
gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Timmons, is recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for 
being here today.
    Earlier this year, an employee at the CFPB forwarded over a 
quarter million pieces of confidential information containing 
sensitive data on consumers and financial firms to a personal 
email account. This was a severe blow to public trust and 
raised many concerns regarding how Federal agencies are 
handling sensitive data in this world of flex remote working. 
What are your agencies doing to prevent similar data breaches, 
and can you point to specific mechanisms to prevent the use of 
private emails or the sharing of data outside of the network? 
We will start with Mr. Pelter.
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Congressman. I do not want to 
propose myself as an expert in the technology that our 
Department has available to combat these types of activities. 
So, I would be happy to take that back to the team for a 
response.
    Mr. Timmons. Sure.
    Mr. Pelter. I would share that an activity like that would 
be impermissible and could receive an adverse action of a 
variety of types, whether it was done in the office or from a 
home work.
    Mr. Timmons. So, my question, in 2023 we should be able to 
actually preclude the action. I mean, you should not be able to 
do it on your government-issued device. Would you agree that 
that is something that we could possibly do?
    Mr. Pelter. I understand that we have a variety of 
technological controls in place. I would be happy to take that 
back to the team for a strong----
    Mr. Timmons. OK. Does anybody else have any specific 
thoughts on this? Are you taking steps to make sure that 
similar data breaches cannot occur in the future? Mr. Leavitt?
    Mr. Leavitt. From a training perspective, the entire 
workforce is required to understand how to prevent any type of 
breach of personally identifiable information. So, there are 
serious training requirements. However, with regards to the 
technology-specific requirements, I would take that question 
back.
    Mr. Timmons. OK. Stevens?
    Ms. Stevens. Thank you for the question. Like our fellow 
agencies, we do hold employees accountable for breaches of 
conduct, like the one that you are describing, and that is 
agnostic, whether they work at home or are working in the 
office. We have measures in place to monitor their use of 
government systems, and we take disciplinary action when 
required.
    Mr. Timmons. OK.
    Ms. Stevens. In looking at the disciplinary actions that we 
have taken over the past 3 years, there has not been one 
specific to telework. It has been about the conduct, again, 
whether that is in the office or working from an alternate 
location.
    Mr. Timmons. OK. Mr. McKnelly?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. Sensitive 
programmatic data at the Social Security Administration and 
protecting that is an absolute priority. And I would like to 
take the rest of the question back for the record to provide 
the specific measures we have taken over the course.
    Mr. Timmons. I would imagine a lot of your information is 
siloed, so it would not even be possible to do something 
similar. I would hope that at least. I mean, the failures of 
the CFPB breach are pretty remarkable, so I would appreciate 
any additional information you can get. I want to talk about 
remote working in public places using public internet. Do you 
all have policies surrounding that? Let us start with whoever 
wants. Ms. Stevens?
    Ms. Stevens. We do have policies in place. You have to have 
a secure setup at home, and there are expectations about 
keeping data----
    Mr. Timmons. So, you could not go to Starbucks and log in 
through a VPN?
    Ms. Stevens. You could, but we have policies that say----
    Mr. Timmons. Say no.
    Ms. Stevens. Say no.
    Mr. Timmons. OK.
    Ms. Stevens. Yes, exactly.
    Mr. Timmons. Mr. Leavitt?
    Mr. Leavitt. We have the similar policies. The employees 
are required to enter into a telework agreement, for example.
    Mr. Timmons. OK.
    Mr. Leavitt. And in those agreements, we must have the 
capacity to work in an effective operating environment, whether 
it is at our home or another designated location.
    Mr. Timmons. So, you could go to a co-workspace, but, Ms. 
Stevens, your people could not go to co-workspaces. They have 
to be at home?
    Ms. Stevens. The expectation is that they will be at home, 
yes.
    Mr. Timmons. OK. But, Mr. Leavitt, that is not the case for 
you. You could go somewhere as long as it is secure?
    Mr. Leavitt. As long as it is a designated official 
workstation.
    Mr. Timmons. OK. Mr. Pelter, any similar rules?
    Mr. Pelter. Yes. Thank you, Congressman. Our telework 
agreements require that your work be conducted in an 
appropriate place using secure technology, and our 
professionalism and performance standards do not change whether 
you are teleworking or working at a traditional worksite.
    Mr. Timmons. OK. Great.
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. We have similar 
controls in place concerning the secure work environment when 
employing the technologies in support of a remote work 
environment.
    Mr. Timmons. And are you all able to track whether the 
employees are following these rules? I mean, you can see their 
IP address, you can see the location. If they are at a 
Starbucks, is that going to get flagged? Ms. Stevens?
    Ms. Stevens. We have the ability to monitor badge swipes, 
so we know when they are in the office.
    Mr. Timmons. OK. All right. I am running out of time. Thank 
you all so much. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much. The gentlewoman, Ms. Crockett, is recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you so 
much for the work that you do on behalf of the American people. 
I really do mean that.
    There are a couple of things that I want to go over with 
you because we continue to beat down telework in this 
Committee, and I do not feel as if we have really offered very 
many solutions. So, one of the things that people continually 
complain about when it comes to D.C. is that we are broken, and 
guess what? I would have to agree. And so, therefore, because 
we cannot get ourselves together, it is hard to support your 
work, which means that it is hard for us to support the 
American people.
    I think that it was Mr. McKnelly that brought it up earlier 
about the budget. You did not say that exactly, but that is 
where you were going with it, and that is what I picked up. So, 
I want to talk about something that is on topic, but a little 
off topic. How many of you are familiar with a program as it 
relates to military spouses and working remotely? Can everyone 
raise your hand if you are aware?
    [Hands raised.]
    Ms. Crockett. All right Perfect. Right now, the majority of 
the conversations that are taking place in our country have to 
do with a war, or a couple of wars. But definitely what has 
dominated most recently is the war in the Middle East. And we 
know that American troops, while they may not be on the 
frontlines of this war, American troops are participating in 
various ways in support capacities. And what is troubling to me 
from a national security standpoint, especially since we not 
only have the war that is brewing in Ukraine, and we need to 
support Ukraine because if Putin is able to go into Ukraine and 
take it over, then he may move on to Poland, and if Poland 
becomes the subject of his ire, then we know that American 
troops will then be moving in. But when we look at recruitment 
in this country, we have three agencies that are down and not 
meeting their recruitment numbers. And one of the reasons that 
they are not meeting those numbers is because military spouses 
are struggling right now when it comes to remote work.
    In fact, when it comes to SSA specifically, I have a letter 
that I would like to introduce into the record, and my team is 
going to be mad at me because I am doing all of this.
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much. This letter is actually 
from a military spouse that works for or did work for Social 
Security, but was unable to do so overseas. Is that the current 
policy?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. We currently do 
not have an implemented domestic employees telework overseas, 
or DETO policy. However, I would like to assure you we are 
currently in consultation with the Department of State and 
other likeminded agencies such as the Veteran Affairs, and we 
are developing our policy right now. In fact, it is in the 
stages of being finally staffed and will be reviewed here in 
the next few weeks.
    Ms. Crockett. Well, I absolutely applaud that and 
appreciate that because one thing we have not talked about is 
the beauty of telework and how we can actually help when it 
comes to national security, when it comes to spouses, and 
Representative Bacon and I introduced the Readiness Act to 
achieve just this goal. We did that last week, and it was co-
sponsored by six Republicans and six Democrats, so the 
definition of bipartisan, which is very hard to find nowadays. 
And the Readiness Act will improve Federal employment retention 
and also help increase military retention and recruitment in 
the armed forces and foreign services. The bill has been 
referred to this Committee, and I hope to work with the 
Chairman to turn these hearings into action by holding a markup 
on this measure.
    And given the shortcomings we are currently seeing, I would 
like to ask all the witnesses to respond to the following. Is 
your agency in compliance with the military spouse hiring 
reporting requirements laid out under 5 U.S.C. Section 3330d? 
And as a followup, does your Agency track military spouse 
retention, and if so, are you willing to provide that 
information to the Oversight Committee? We got 33 seconds, so 
if you all just want to give me a ``yes'' or ``no,'' that would 
be great.
    Mr. McKnelly. Yes on your first question, and then I would 
have to get back to you on the tracking of the retention.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you.
    Ms. Stevens. Yes. And we will be happy to get back to you 
with exact numbers.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you.
    Mr. Leavitt. I believe so, and we will be happy to get back 
to you with the exact numbers, and we also have a career fair 
for military spouses early next year. We would love to have 
participate----
    Ms. Crockett. I love this----
    Mr. Leavitt [continuing]. A bipartisan participation to 
kick that off.
    Ms. Crockett. Awesome.
    Mr. Pelter. To the best of my knowledge, yes, and I will 
have to respond to you on the retention numbers.
    Ms. Crockett. Again, I just want to say thank you so much 
for the work that you do on behalf of American people. Right 
now, it feels as if we are starving you and we are wanting you 
to punch above your weight class, but I am going to do 
everything that I can to make sure that you have the resources 
that you need and that we continue to support your work. Thank 
you so much, and with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time. The 
distinguished gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Biggs, is recognized 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Biggs. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. I do get a kick out of the 
fact that you guys are being starved. This body just passed out 
a CR that kept you at the same levels that Biden, Schumer, and 
Pelosi did just not even a year ago. That is pretty certain----
    Ms. Crockett. Will the gentleman yield for just a few 
seconds?
    Mr. Biggs. No, I will not.
    Ms. Crockett. OK. I was going to help you out with what I 
was alleging.
    Mr. Biggs. So here is the deal. I want to admit into the 
record this right here, that Preliminary Results Show Federal 
Buildings Remain Underutilized Due to Longstanding Challenges 
and Increased Telework. That is a GAO study and from a 
testimony given in the Congress just a few months ago.
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection, be entered into the 
record.
    Mr. Biggs. Are you all familiar with the report? If you 
are, please raise your hand.
    [No response.]
    Mr. Biggs. You are not familiar with this report? This is 
astounding. I hope that maybe we get better answers going 
forward, but, I mean, I was disappointed in your answers or 
failure to answer Mr. Palmer's questions, but here we go. This 
report outlines GAO's finding in their review of Federal 
headquarters buildings earlier this year, and the results were 
actually startling.
    Commerce was one of the better-performing agencies. It was 
in the top quartile of buildings surveyed. No agency of the 
Federal Government was utilizing more than 50 percent of their 
headquarters office space. The top quartile average utilization 
was 35 percent. USAID and HHS fell into the second quartile, 
each with about a 23 percent utilization rate. SSA was in the 
bottom quartile of agencies surveyed along with HUD, GSA, OPM, 
USD, and SBA. Each of those agencies averaged 9-percent 
building utilization. That is 9 percent. Nine percent. Federal 
agencies spent $2 billion annually of taxpayer money to operate 
and maintain Federal buildings and spent $5 billion more on 
leases, and this in our Nation's Capital, the offices are 
sitting empty.
    Additionally, well, before I get there, let me just ask 
you, do each of you know what your current building utilization 
rate is? Mr. McKnelly, do you?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. I do not know the 
exact utilization rate.
    Mr. Biggs. Ms. Stevens?
    Ms. Stevens. We will get back to you on that.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Leavitt?
    Mr. Leavitt. We have approximately 4,000 facilities across 
the country. I do not know the aggregate overall utilization 
rate.
    Mr. Biggs. So, the answer would be no. Mr. Pelter?
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Congressman. For our headquarters 
building, the Herbert C. Hoover Building, our most recent full 
quarter was at 42 percent daily average. I would have to take 
back to the team for any additional information.
    Mr. Biggs. OK.
    Mr. Biggs. That would be different than the GAO report 
indicated, so I would be interested in knowing. And what plans 
do your agencies have to reduce your physical footprint since 
there seems to be so much vacancy certainly in the headquarters 
level? Mr. Pelter?
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Congressman. We have been actively 
working to reduce the footprint of our Federal facilities over 
the long haul, and very recently, our USPTO campus in 
Alexandria was reduced by approximately 760,000 square feet.
    Mr. Biggs. How recently?
    Mr. Pelter. And our Census building out at the Suitland 
Federal Center is reducing by 300,000 square feet.
    Mr. Biggs. And how recently was that? That is over a 
million square feet.
    Mr. Pelter. The Census Bureau is more recent as we are 
anticipating the Bureau of Labor Statistics to join that 
facility. The USPTO program has been ongoing over last few 
years.
    Mr. Biggs. How much money did you save on that, on those 
programs, and----
    Mr. Pelter. I would have to take that question back to the 
team to get you a dollar figure response.
    Mr. Biggs. OK.
    Mr. Biggs. So, let us just go to something maybe a little 
easier to answer. Last April, SSA announced return of in-person 
services, but my constituents, like somebody else was 
testifying about, Mr. Higgins, I believe, my constituents 
continue to face challenges reaching service representatives 
over the phone just to schedule meetings. I have a very large 
senior population. While SSA pushes people to access services 
online, my office, routinely hears that constituents need 
access to forms that can only be accessed by going to a local 
SSA office. What steps is Social Security taking to ensure that 
seniors are able to access the services they need in person?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. So first, it is a 
priority for the Social Security Administration to have our 
field offices manned in a way that can serve your constituents. 
We also take tremendous pride in our ability to provide them 
with the information that they need specific to the forums. 
Again, I can look into that for you for the record, but we are 
constantly looking for ways to improve the dissemination of 
that information to your constituents, whether that happens to 
be in the field office or, you know, publicly available from a 
digital perspective as well.
    Mr. Biggs. I particularly think of the Apache Junction 
office which has some really good people in it, but it is also 
hard to get in to see them sometimes, and so that is what I am 
talking about. That is what the seniors face. That is why they 
are calling my office because they need to get in, they need to 
see somebody to resolve these. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I 
yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much. The gentlewoman from Pennsylvania, Ms. Lee, is 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I find it very odd that 
my Republican colleagues made the choice to hold a second 
hearing on telework and concerns over our Agency's productivity 
while teleworking when this has been one of the least 
productive sessions of Congress. Votes on appropriation bills 
have been pulled at the last second, we were without a Speaker 
for weeks, and we barely avoided a shutdown thanks primarily to 
Democrats. The dysfunction is unprecedented. Regardless, the 
claims against telework are unfounded and directly contradict 
what we have seen in our Federal workforce.
    In the last hearing, we heard how easily NASA, the National 
Space Foundation, Nuclear Regulatory Commission, and the 
Department of Homeland Security were able to maintain 
operations by transitioning to telework during the pandemic and 
reduce costs, saving the government billions of dollars of 
taxpayers' money. We further heard how telework expanded work 
opportunities for military spouses, people with disabilities, 
and working parents and caregivers. So, to all of our panelists 
at this particular hearing, have you seen similar benefits of 
telework in your respective agencies? This is for anybody.
    Ms. Stevens. For USAID, one key benefit of telework, both 
before and after the pandemic, is that we work across time 
zones, so it really facilitates our ability to connect with one 
another across 80 countries.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you. Has anyone else seen benefits? Please, 
Mr. Leavitt.
    Mr. Leavitt. And just to give a very local example with my 
own office of just over 200 H.R. professionals, this team, 
thanks to telework and increased workplace flexibilities, has 
decreased the time that it takes to hire by 22 percent just 
over the last 12 months alone and almost at times up to almost 
cutting it in half. So that is just an example of the 
extraordinary efficiencies we can gain with the use of telework 
and workplace flexibilities.
    Ms. Lee. So, thank you.
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. The other obvious 
impact from a hiring and retention perspective is we get broad 
and diverse applicant pools, and greater selection among 
applicants ultimately results in the best possible selection 
for the positions we are trying to fill.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you.
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Congresswoman. In addition to what 
my colleagues mentioned, I would also add that we have seen 
savings in transit costs, and we have also gained great 
confidence in our continuity of operations plans and the 
readiness of our workforce to telework, en masse.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you so much for sharing. This summer, Social 
Security Administration reached an agreement with the largest 
Federal labor union, the American Federation of Government 
Employees, to preserve telework eligibility through 2029. The 
union was pushing for teleworking opportunities to improve work 
conditions for their members, which would, in turn, result in 
better customer service for Social Security beneficiaries. Mr. 
McKnelly, what improvements have you seen at Social Security 
Administration due to telework? We already said that, but 
looking forward, what kind of policies and guidelines in Social 
Security Administration planning for remote workers?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question, and we are, of 
course, very pleased with our ability to work effectively with 
our unions to preserve telework as a tool in the workplace. 
What I will tell you is that our collective bargaining 
agreement actually was largely unchanged. I think it was the 
utilization of that current collective bargaining agreement in 
making sure that the flexibilities were exercised as ultimately 
what benefited the union membership as well as the broader 
organization.
    Ms. Lee. So, your Agency often faces criticism for work 
conditions and backlogs. My Republican colleagues would like to 
point the finger at remote work, but would you agree that the 
larger culprit is a lack of sufficient funding?
    Mr. McKnelly. I would concur that the principal service 
delivery challenges that we are facing are chronic 
understaffing and a lack of budget to do what we need to do to 
serve the American people.
    Ms. Lee. Would the Republican proposed cut of $183 million 
to the Agency proposed in this year's appropriations bill make 
the backlog better or worse?
    Mr. McKnelly. It would make the backlogs worse.
    Ms. Lee. We all want to see our agencies doing their jobs 
efficiently to better serve the American people, and telework 
opportunities have only forwarded that goal. In the Department 
of Commerce response to our Committee's requests regarding 
their telework policies, Commerce officials stated that 
significantly increasing telework increased their Agency's 
productivity. Specifically in 2022, the Agency met or exceeded 
87 percent of its key performance indicators which measure the 
Department's progress toward achieving the five goals and 23 
objectives.
    In two hearings now, we have heard about the benefits of 
telework. For the workforce, it attracts individuals regardless 
of race, location, religion, and can offer opportunities to 
those with disabilities, live overseas as military spouses, or 
simply need to be near their family. Even from an environmental 
perspective, a study published in the Proceedings of the 
National Academy of Sciences found that switching from working 
onsite to working from home full time may reduce a person's 
carbon footprint by more than 50 percent. Hybrid schedules 
where people work remotely for 2 to 4 days a week could also 
cut emissions by 11 to 29 percent according to the study.
    I would like to see this Committee stop blaming convenient 
scapegoats for our problems and instead focus on keeping the 
government funded and operating. I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman yields 
back her time. The distinguished gentleman from Florida, Mr. 
Donalds, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman. I would actually argue 
that last Congress was a very unproductive Congress. We did not 
even do oversight last Congress. I was too busy waiting to get 
your number to go vote by proxy, and the Committee hearings, we 
barely met. So be that as it may, this has actually been a 
pretty productive Congress.
    OK. couple things. Mr. McKnelly, I would say my district's 
congressional liaison advised that the COVID-19 vaccine mandate 
by SSA was a huge factor in the backlog of what is going on in 
my congressional district. We have a couple of statistics. 
According to the Code of Federal Regulations, Section 20, 
404.1642, max processing time should be 49.5 days for Social 
Security Disability Insurance. Currently, according to the 
Florida Division of Disability, it is determined that the 
average processing time was 225 days, nearly a 200 percent 
increase from 77 days in 2019.
    And so, my district has seen this in particular. The staff 
said that there is currently an average of 8-year tenure of 
these workers. They have about a 30 years' worth of overall 
knowledge in the office, but their response times are 
significantly higher post-pandemic than pre-pandemic. What has 
been done since the pandemic to build the workforce ensure 
quality of service to Americans?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. We are currently 
in the process of rebuilding our workforce and increasing 
staffing levels. Most recently, in Fiscal Year 2023, an anomaly 
of close to $800 million resulted in our ability to hire a 
number of individuals, again, a sum total of 3,000, and that 
rebuilding of the workforce and those additional personnel----
    Mr. Donalds. Let me ask you this question. How many 
employees did you lose during the pandemic because your 
processing times basically went up 200 percent from pre-
pandemic to post-pandemic. I would assume you lost employees, 
so what happened? How many employees did you lose?
    Mr. McKnelly. I cannot speak to the exact number, but I 
know that our attrition levels----
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. McKnelly, this is an oversight hearing 
dealing with Federal workforce. Obviously, telework is the 
focus, but you guys just do not even have basic understanding 
of what your workforces are and what the trajectory of 
workforce losses pre-pandemic to post-pandemic are?
    Mr. McKnelly. We do have those numbers, and I can provide 
those to you for the record.
    Mr. Donalds. But why aren't they here now?
    Mr. McKnelly. All I have available are some general numbers 
concerning the attrition rates during that particular period in 
time.
    Mr. Donalds. Generally speaking, what were the attrition 
rates during that particular period of time?
    Mr. McKnelly. To answer your question, attrition levels 
reached historic levels, and it limited our ability to address 
those growing----
    Mr. Donalds. Define ``historic''.
    Mr. McKnelly. Huh?
    Mr. Donalds. Define ``historic.''
    Mr. McKnelly. So, for many years, the Agency averaged 5 to 
7 percent attrition rates, but in Fiscal Year 2022, it was 10 
percent with telephone agents being the highest at about 20 
percent. And then DDS attrition was at about 10 percent 
historically, and then that became nearly 18 percent in Fiscal 
Year 2022. The highest percentage of those DDS workers were the 
disability examiners, and that was close to 25 percent.
    Mr. Donalds. Why?
    Mr. McKnelly. I believe that there was some significant 
challenges with those particular workloads. It is challenging, 
it is complex, it is very, very hard, and----
    Mr. Donalds. Work is typically hard, Mr. McKnelly. That is 
why people get paid to do it. Why?
    Mr. McKnelly. Like I said, it is a complicated workload, 
and I think there were difficulties in recruiting and retaining 
those individuals because of the complexity of the work.
    Mr. Donalds. So, you said in your call center, your 
attrition rate was what again for the telephone call workers? 
What was that?
    Mr. McKnelly. Telephone agents, about 20 percent.
    Mr. Donalds. Twenty percent. Are these telephone agents, 
were they remote in their own home or were they in a call 
center?
    Mr. McKnelly. Some were in the call center and then some 
were also actually working telework as well.
    Mr. Donalds. What percentage of the telework employees 
actually left the profession under Social Security 
Administration?
    Mr. McKnelly. The total number?
    Mr. Donalds. The percentage of those telework, how many of 
them left? Do you know?
    Mr. McKnelly. I do not have----
    Mr. Donalds. How many left?
    Mr. McKnelly. No, I do not have that answer.
    Mr. Donalds. OK. A couple things. First and foremost, Mr. 
Pelter, you said earlier that for people who sign up to do 
telework that there are codes of conduct and other things in 
your Agency. Everybody attested to that. You said that if 
people did not comply, there were ``adverse actions,'' your 
words. What are adverse actions?
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Congressman. An adverse action would 
be very case-by-case dependent.
    Mr. Donalds. What is the response of your Agency for 
somebody who does not comply with the code of conduct for 
telework?
    Mr. Pelter. Congressman, it would depend on the severity of 
the conduct.
    Mr. Donalds. Give me the least severe and the most severe. 
What are the adverse actions for an employee?
    Mr. Pelter. Least severe would be counseling. Most severe 
would likely be separation from the Federal workforce.
    Mr. Donalds. What is the processing time for separation 
from the Federal workforce?
    Mr. Pelter. I do not have that figure. I would have to get 
back to you, sir.
    Mr. Donalds. You do not have the figure of what the time is 
to separate an employee from the Federal workforce.
    Mr. Pelter. I do not have that figure with me.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Chairman, I would move that everyone on 
this panel should be providing the information to this body 
about what it actually means to separate an employee from the 
Federal workforce and other adverse actions for employees that 
do not comply with the code of conduct with respect to 
telework. With that, I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time, but I 
would like to engage the gentleman for just a moment. If you 
could please, Mr. Donalds, make sure that as we send the 
letter, which will be a followup to each of them that we had 
spoken about earlier, if you could help us delineate those 
questions that you would like specifically asked, it would be a 
benefit to myself, Mr. Mfume, and this Subcommittee to make 
sure that we get back an answer within 15 days. And I want to 
thank the gentleman for his detailed information, and as we had 
stated, the gentleman yield back his time.
    Ms. Lee. Mr. Speaker, I ask unanimous consent to insert 
into the record this GAO report which shows that preliminary 
evidence that telework generally had a positive impact on 
worker productivity and firm performance in certain sectors.
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection, we will enter that into 
the record. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman, Ms. Tlaib, is recognized for 
5 minutes.
    Ms. Tlaib. Thank you so much. This is, you know, a hard 
question, and I apologize. If you do not know what it is, the 
answer to it, it is fine because everybody is talking about 
productivity. It is almost incredibly, I think, dehumanizing 
the way they are just expecting you all for so little amount of 
funding and during a pandemic where we are literally losing 
loved ones and people were dying and getting sick and some 
still experiencing long COVID. Had any of you experienced any 
of your employees dying because of COVID?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for that question. We are aware of 
fatalities for employees that are associated with COVID.
    Ms. Tlaib. Ms. Stevens?
    Ms. Stevens. Thank you for the question. Yes.
    Mr. Leavitt. It, of course, affects the entire workforce, 
families affected by this, and loved ones.
    Mr. Pelter. Yes.
    Ms. Tlaib. Yes. You know, I was here. It will just be just 
the unknown, and, I mean, I saw one of my neighbors, just 
young, very young man, get COVID and not survive. And I just 
think that this was not, like, intentional on the part of us 
making these decisions around telework. But even then, I found 
out even in the medical field how incredibly effective it was 
to have some sort of telework component to providing care for 
many of my residents.
    But I want to talk about this because it is about so-called 
productivity in the cases of my colleagues. One of the things 
that gives me anxiety, and I am not even you all, is when there 
is a possibility of a shutdown. I have been here, and I first 
came in to office, and the first vote I ever had to take in 
2019 was to open back government after 35 days of a shutdown. 
What does it take for each of you because we literally kept 
government open that day, but you all had to start way before 
we did to prepare for a shutdown. What does that take? Mr. 
McKnelly?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. So, shutdown 
preparation diverts critical agency resources needed to serve 
the public. So, for example, if we spend just 1 hour on 
shutdown preparations with each SSA employee, that translates 
into almost 62,000 hours of time or about 30----
    Ms. Tlaib. That is right.
    Mr. McKnelly [continuing]. Work years of lost productivity.
    Ms. Tlaib. Yes. You had to do it even though we kept 
covering them up, but they do not understand that. How about 
you, Ms. Stevens?
    Ms. Stevens. Well, it affects us as well. It takes weeks of 
planning.
    Ms. Tlaib. Yes. I mean, it is unbelievable. It takes you 
away from actually providing services to our residents.
    Ms. Stevens. Disrupts our mission, yes.
    Ms. Tlaib. Absolutely.
    Mr. Leavitt. As we get closer to a potential shutdown, our 
teams increasingly working----
    Mr. Connolly. Could you please speak into the mic? It is 
hard to hear you.
    Mr. Leavitt. Sorry, sir.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
    Mr. Leavitt. As we approach a potential shutdown, we work 
increasingly around the clock to ensure that we are prepared to 
support the entire workforce.
    Mr. Pelter. Any potential lapse in funding has a negative 
impact on the Department's ability to deliver on its mission. 
The shutdown preparations are not, in my view, an effective or 
efficient use of our time----
    Ms. Tlaib. It creates instability. They want to talk about 
telework when, honestly, telework actually created some 
stability in some ways because it is another tool for our 
residents to be able to continue to get care. You guys call it 
services or I call it care because I just hear this kind of 
vilification, kind of dismissing the incredible role that 
Federal employees have. I cannot even imagine working in HHS. I 
cannot. Social Security, I mean, unbelievable, complex cases 
where people have to appeal. You have to provide all this.
    And for a lot of our residents, honestly, it is such a 
rigorous process because we keep passing all these bills that 
make it harder for them to apply for services. I mean, it is 
unbelievable. I actually walk through the process, and I am 
like, why do they have to submit this, what is this, all 
because we have, you know, a Congress that continues to think 
that people are constantly out there trying to scheme the 
system when it is actually, no, there are seasoned residents 
that need to be able to retire with human dignity. It is folks 
that are actually losing their job because of a disability. I 
mean, it is just layers after layers.
    And so, you know, when I look at this, I mean, I have the 
same questions about productivity. We can show them all kinds 
of studies over and over again, but at the end, it is our 
residents that literally come to us because they do not come to 
me and say, Rashida, oh my god, it is because of telework. No. 
It is because of the other layers of bureaucracy that we make 
them go through to actually get something they paid us into a 
system for so long that when they are sick and when they are 
unemployed or where they are struggling, that they can actually 
get services.
    The other really important question I have, you know, when 
I think about telework is the fact that it actually does help 
you diversify the number of people you can bring in to your 
departments. I noticed that. And I see my friends and others 
that now because of broken systems, let us be honest, childcare 
maybe, whatever it is, that they are able to have a lot more 
flexibility when it comes to be able to work for the Federal 
Government. Can you talk a little bit about that? Oh, I am 
sorry, am I running out of time? I think I ran out of time. I 
am so sorry.
    I just want to appreciate all of you because it is not 
perfect, I know this. But I just want you all to know 
productivity and so forth, when I am in a Congress that feels 
unproductive right now and constantly threatening the shutdown, 
that is something I wish we would focus on because that is what 
is going to impact whether or not our residents get quality 
services. Thank you so much. I yield.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time. I would 
say to the gentlewoman, most unemployment disability is handled 
by the states. The distinguished gentlewoman, Mrs. Boebert, is 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. McKnelly, are 
you aware that in April 2023 OMB issued guidance that called 
for increased ``meaningful in-person work?''
    Mr. McKnelly. I am.
    Mrs. Boebert. So, why has the Social Security 
Administration failed to provide any timeline for employees to 
return to the office?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. So, from a 
timeline perspective, our political leadership was back in the 
office in December 2021. I think it is also important to note 
that in April 2022, 75 percent of our workforce, our frontline 
workforce, which takes care of hearings, takes care of the 
field offices, they were also in on April 2022. And right now, 
we are in the process of increasing headquarters and support 
staff in our headquarters offices.
    Mrs. Boebert. So, your response to the Committee on 
September 14th failed to provide a response on how the Agency 
plans to return to in-person work, and, in fact, the only 
substantive answer was regarding the Social Security 
Administration's plans to adjust its real estate footprint. So, 
I think it is very important. If you are going to have a call 
for increased meaningful in-person work, then we need to 
understand that timeline and actually be able to fulfill it.
    So, the Social Security Administration made an agreement 
that allows probationary employees, employees with minor 
disciplinary actions, and trainees to telework. Hold on, not 
done. Think about that, employees who are on probation, who 
have minor disciplinary actions and trainees, are allowed to 
telework. So, wouldn't it make more sense for these workers 
under probation or who have had these disciplinary actions or 
trainees to work in the office to ensure improvement or to 
monitor their behavior?
    Mr. McKnelly. So, there is the authority to grant telework 
in those particular cases. What I would tell you is what we 
learned coming out of the pandemic is that our front office 
workers, specifically the trainees that you are talking about, 
they did not feel connected to the mission, and they did not 
feel connected to the teams that they were working with. So----
    Mrs. Boebert. It took a pandemic to realize that you cannot 
train someone from home, that they need to be in person and 
connected to the team to actually learn how to do their job?
    Mr. McKnelly. No, that was the feedback that we got from 
them. And so, when we had the opportunity to participate in an 
approach to get those individuals into the office so that they 
can work together, that is something that we do on a regular 
basis.
    Mrs. Boebert. Well, it is unfortunate that you even had to 
experiment with that and receive that feedback to understand 
that someone is not going to train well from home for a brand-
new position. So anyway, getting back to the Social Security 
Administration, do you know how many applications are currently 
on backlog?
    Mr. McKnelly. What types of applications are you referring 
to?
    Mrs. Boebert. So, all sorts of applications that you have 
here in the Administration. For instance, at the beginning of 
this year, the Social Security Administration reported that 
there were approximately 107,000 applications in the backlog. 
For reference, in January 2020, there were only 41,000. Now, 
this has resulted in several of my constituents receiving 
unsatisfactory customer service to receive the benefits that 
they have worked for their entire lives.
    In fact, 3 out of 5 applicants who are applying for their 
Social Security benefits, three out of five applicants will be 
denied benefits after waiting for approximately 7 months. About 
8,000 people filed for bankruptcy and approximately 10,000 
people die each year while awaiting a decision from your 
Agency. All the while you all are allowing delinquent employees 
to sit on their sofas at home instead of actually getting to 
work and doing their jobs. This is absolutely unacceptable.
    Mr. McKnelly. So, our employees are working, whether they 
are in the office or at home, and they are----
    Mrs. Boebert. Are you monitoring the work that they are 
doing from home on a regular basis?
    Mr. McKnelly. Yes, we are.
    Mrs. Boebert. Every employee. Do you have the numbers of 
the hours that are submitted? Are you counting how many times 
they are logging into their computers and responding to 
casework?
    Mr. McKnelly. So, our employees are subject to the same 
performance management processes and oversight whether they are 
teleworking or working in the office. And we have systems in 
place that our managers use to schedule, assign, and track 
workloads, and that includes individual employee workloads in 
many cases. So real-time understanding of what actions are 
being processed at any particular given time. Additionally, our 
employees are required to be accessible to their supervisors, 
clients, colleagues, and external parties during work hours, 
through a variety of means, including instant messaging, video 
platforms, and telephone. They are connected to the workplace 
whether they are in the office or at the home.
    Mrs. Boebert. Then why have the backlogs for Social 
Security applicants increased from 41,000 to 107,000?
    Mr. McKnelly. Because we have been historically underfunded 
for a number of years now.
    Mrs. Boebert. I do not think you are underfunded. You are 
funded at the Nancy Pelosi levels, at the Democrat levels. We 
just continued that same funding.
    Mr. McKnelly. So, I would say----
    Mrs. Boebert. At pandemic-level spending.
    Mr. McKnelly. So, I would say we have an increase of over 8 
million beneficiaries over the last 10 years. At the same time, 
we experienced our lowest work staffing levels at the end of 
Fiscal Year 2022. That is a math problem. I mean, that is a 
problem. If you have those workloads, you know, increasing, and 
you do not have the staff to take care of those workloads, you 
are going to have the backlogs that you are talking about, 
Representative.
    Mrs. Boebert. Well, I would love to hear more reports of 
your staff actually working in person and increase the 
meaningful in-person work that is done in your offices. I am 
out of time, and I yield.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time. The 
gentleman, my friend from Virginia, Mr. Connolly, is recognized 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. McKnelly?
    Mr. McKnelly. That is correct. Thank you.
    Mr. Connolly. We had an unprecedented pandemic, first in 
100 years. Do you remember how many American died in this 
pandemic?
    Mr. McKnelly. I know it was over a million.
    Mr. Connolly. Anyone know? Well, I will give you that: 1.2 
million. All kinds of people died: poor, rich, educated, not so 
educated, Federal workers, private sector workers, healthy 
people, sick people. The virus knew no distinction, and in the 
beginning, we had no protections and not much knowledge. We 
were frightened to death about that virus and how you could get 
it, and except for telework protocols, we did not have any 
protocols in the Federal Government. What do you do? What 
instructions do you give to protect people?
    I had a constituent, Chai Sudemon. He worked in Quantico. 
There were no protocols in place. He got COVID and he died. He 
was not alone. Postal workers died, social security workers 
died, IRS workers died. All kinds of Federal employees 
succumbed to the COVID virus because we did not yet have 
protocols in place, and thank God for telework, a structured 
program that protected people because we already had the 
architecture in place. Now, there is a difference, is there 
not, between universal remote working in a pandemic and 
telework? Fair enough? Ms. Stevens, want to elaborate a little 
bit?
    Ms. Stevens. That is fair. We do have policies for remote 
work as well. It is based on the duties of the position whether 
that can be authorized or not.
    Mr. Connolly. Right. Now, some of my friends on the other 
side of the aisle love by insinuation to people working on 
their couches--I am sorry--not working. They are just sitting 
on their couches apparently doing nothing. So, help me out 
here. When we adopt a telework program in an agency, is there 
any kind of screening that goes on who is eligible and who is 
not for the program? Anyone? Mr. Leavitt?
    Mr. Leavitt. Yes. We are all responsible for undertaking 
training as well as abiding by an agreement that we put into 
place.
    Mr. Connolly. So, there might be some jobs, for example, 
not eligible.
    Mr. Leavitt. Correct.
    Mr. Connolly. And there might be some people whose job 
might be eligible, but they are not appropriate candidates. 
Would that be fair?
    Mr. Leavitt. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Connolly. And you have a way of discerning that and 
making that judgment. OK. So, insinuation No. 2, like we took 
care of that one. There actually is a process. Insinuation No. 
2 is, but once we let someone telework, of course they are 
going to the golf course. They are watching soap operas. They 
are doing anything but work. Is that fair? Mr. Pelter, why 
don't you speak up, or do you want the smear on your Federal 
employees to go unchallenged? Is there data that would, in 
fact, contradict that assertion because that is the insinuation 
which I think is pernicious that is being propounded by some on 
the other side of the aisle.
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Congressman. I believe there is data 
and there is a process in place to hit against that assertion. 
Our supervisors, our employees work hard to maintain the 
productivity. Every employee has a performance management plan. 
Their supervisors are responsible----
    Mr. Connolly. So, it is structured.
    Mr. Pelter. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Connolly. And you have a way of measuring productivity?
    Mr. Pelter. We do.
    Mr. Connolly. And you have a way of monitoring those who 
might be goofing off?
    Mr. Pelter. We do.
    Mr. Connolly. And do you find that all of those procedures 
in place create more productivity or less productivity from 
your workforce?
    Mr. Pelter. I think having the appropriate structures in 
place to monitor employee performance and productivity improves 
the overall productivity and mission delivery for our 
Department.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you. Mr. Leavitt, you would agree with 
that or not?
    Mr. Leavitt. Yes, I would. Trust is absolutely fundamental 
and employee engagement for driving performance, and it is the 
performance that matters, the results that we deliver for the 
American people. In our case, for example, it is not just a 
pandemic, it is responding to the opioid crisis, reaching 4 
million people in rural areas with buprenorphine, the 
medication-assisted treatment for opioid use syndrome, and it 
is also the increased access to treatment and prevention 
efforts. It is the results that matter.
    Mr. Connolly. Right. Thank you. Ms. Stevens, would you 
agree with that?
    Ms. Stevens. I would absolutely agree with that. We have 
ways to monitor performance, whether someone is working at home 
or in the office.
    Mr. Connolly. And Mr. McKnelly?
    Mr. McKnelly. I would agree. The Social Security 
Administration has a history of monitoring workloads prior to 
the pandemic.
    Mr. Connolly. I would just say as somebody who was a 
manager and had big medium-sized workforces, you know, there 
are jobs where I do not care whether you show up at all. What I 
care about is the outcome. So, for example, in the private 
sector, if your job is to write proposals to the Federal 
Government, and you want a hit rate of X percent, and you 
exceed, meet or exceed that, I do not care if you are at home 
watching soap operas in your pajamas, keep doing what you are 
doing because it is the outcome that matters. Not every job 
could say that. Not every job lends itself to telework. You 
know, a cop on the beat cannot just call in. He or she has got 
to be on the beat.
    But there are plenty of jobs where we can actually enhance 
productivity. And in the middle of a pandemic, thank God we had 
the structured program you described because it saved lives. 
And I am not going to be party, and these are my colleagues, to 
the smearing of the Federal workforce as if they are lazy, 
incompetent, and avoiding work. They actually continued to do 
their work in the midst of the worst pandemic in 100 years that 
cost 1.2 million of our citizens' lives, and thank God they 
were there, and thank God these programs are in place. I yield 
back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. The 
gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Edwards, is recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to shift 
the conversation just a little bit. I am in no way trying to 
smear any government worker for sitting on the couch in their 
pajamas. What I would really like to get down to is to 
understand how to convince, if possible, the American taxpayer 
that they are getting a better deal by allowing people to work 
at home.
    Now, I will preface these questions with the fact that 
through the pandemic, I got to participate in literally 
hundreds of Zoom calls, and what I witnessed seemed to be, on 
the other end, often very unproductive people. So given the 
fact that that might have been a different set of 
circumstances, I would like to ask you, Mr. Pelter, I will 
start with you. Help me understand how to convince the American 
taxpayer and my constituents that they are getting a better 
deal by allowing more people to work at home. I will begin with 
this. You made a comment earlier that transit costs were down. 
Give us some examples of how transit costs would be down, and 
how do you measure that now that more people seem to be working 
at home?
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Congressman. For that specific 
example, I would look toward locally here in the D.C. area, the 
SmartBenefits that employees receive as part of their benefit 
package, and that includes things like subsidized rides on the 
metro subway system. When less workers are commuting, we are 
spending less money that type of----
    Mr. Edwards. OK. Perfect. So how much less are you spending 
in the last 12 months or the next 12 months in transit costs?
    Mr. Pelter. I would have to take that questions back to the 
team for a specific answer on the dollar difference.
    Mr. Edwards. Yes. So see, that is the part that makes this 
very difficult to explain to the American taxpayer. From all 
four of you, I am hearing a lot of philosophy, but I am a 
businessman. I want to make the case to the American taxpayer. 
And so, it is real easy to talk hypothetically and say we will 
be able to spend less money to get people into D.C., but that 
really does not mean a whole lot unless we can quantify that. 
So, I know we are not going to answer that now, but as we 
proceed with these types of conversations, those are the kinds 
of answers that I am going to be looking for. And I think those 
are the kinds of answers that our taxpayers and many members of 
this committee are going to be looking for.
    Mr. Pelter, I do not mean to pick on you. It is just you 
are closer, and it is easier for me to read your name. What 
percentage of employees would you say are D.C.-centric before 
and after the pandemic?
    Mr. Pelter. For the Department of Commerce, around half of 
our workforce is D.C.-centric or the National Capital area 
region. We experienced very minimal changes to that during and 
after the pandemic.
    Mr. Edwards. And so, would you see an opportunity, as you 
continue to experience attrition and rehire, to decentralize 
employees from the D.C. area to other places that might have a 
lower cost of living and enable you to hire folks at lower 
salaries than you are required to do in D.C.?
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Congressman. My interests are in 
recruiting and retaining the best and brightest we can. 
Workplace flexibility, such as remote work or telework, are one 
of the limited opportunities we can offer to our workforce to 
try to compete with other public sector agencies and the 
private sector. The Society for Human Resource Management, in 
fact, has listed workplace flexibilities and work-life balance 
as one of the key recruitment and retention requirements of the 
current workforce, and so it is something we are keying in on 
very closely.
    Mr. Edwards. So Mr. Leavitt, let me let me ask you. Are you 
keying in on and how do you recruit outside of the D.C. area? 
It seems like that if you are really looking for geographic 
diversity, trying to concentrate your hiring from maybe other 
areas with other universities or workplaces where there are 
strong workforces, where folks will come to work at a lower 
cost than they might be able to do in D.C. How does that play 
into the equation of remote workforce?
    Mr. Leavitt. Thank you very much for your question, 
Congressman. Just a few quick answers to that. One is that we 
are engaging in partnerships with colleges, community colleges, 
universities across the country, and we are undertaking career 
fairs, hiring events for people across the country. For 
example, one specific area mentioned earlier is military 
spouses. We had approximately 1,200 military spouses 
participate in our last career fair, and we are having another 
one early next year.
    As a result of that, we increased the hiring of the number 
of military spouses by 39 percent. And that means that we, in 
my own office, just as an example, have someone working from 
Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson in Alaska, Fort Stewart in 
Georgia, from Pennsylvania. We have folks from across the 
country that even if their family moves to another duty 
station, we are able to sustain and retain that employee. That 
is one way we were helping save military families and also 
employing and working with folks across the country where 
talent is.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you. Mr. Chair, I know I am out of time, 
but I would just like to comment because I think that this is 
important as we continue to have this discussion. We talk in 
concept about productivity. I would really like to understand 
more about how we measure productivity and how we make it 
better. I would like to understand better how we might be able 
to make reductions in workforce as a result of people working 
from home. I would like to understand better the dollar amount 
that we could save with transit costs. I would like to 
understand better how we can hire an employee someplace else at 
a lower cost of living than is required in Washington, DC.
    Those are the types of things that I think would be 
important to the American taxpayer to understand in order to 
feel better about this or to recognize that maybe we ought to 
be bringing people back into an office. So, I am summarizing 
that by, I could be convinced, I am not yet, but these are the 
types of things that I would like to know to be convinced. 
Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much. I will now yield myself 5 minutes.
    I want to thank each of you for being here today. I think 
that some of the discussion that has taken place today has been 
mismarked. In fact, we began this process 10 months ago. We 
began this process whereby, on a bipartisan basis, there was a 
good bit of need to understand not only what this 
Administration was planning on doing with the workforce that 
had slowly found itself back to work after COVID, to complaints 
and questions about not just the effectiveness and efficiency 
of government, but very much so in several different agencies. 
We received a great deal of information from Members of this 
Committee and Subcommittee about the Washington, DC. workforce 
and when they would come back because there was a great deal of 
gnashing of teeth about the small businesses that were impacted 
by Federal Government workers.
    We have today discovered, uncovered, again, discussion, 
debate, about what those darn Republicans did in 2010 when they 
first passed the first telework sort of legislation that would 
open up this issue long before we heard about COVID, but 
actually looked at it in terms of a way to effectively have a 
workforce, whether a person might be sick or might be taking 
care of a senior or someone else, perhaps a disabled member of 
their family, but they could still be participatory in the 
workforce. It would be looked at on an agency perspective, but 
the authorization was put in place by the Republican Congress.
    Today, Mr. Mfume reinforced what I believe was correct when 
he said the overwhelming view of effectiveness and efficiency 
should be how we look at what the agencies are trying to do. 
There are some people that disagree with that, but I agree with 
that, that we were trying to look at it from a governmentwide 
perspective as we asked the question months ago.
    Today, we talked about this being the second hearing--not 
the first, the second--and it focused on those that we felt 
like we had not received as much information, that would help 
us gather not only data, but about feedback that you have had. 
Today, we are hearing about that. Today, we are going to write 
you back, the four agencies that are here, a little bit more 
that has developed itself over the past few months as well as 
today.
    I would like to ask each of you a question just to hear 
what you are going to say. But part of what we have talked 
about today is moving back on the amount of allocation of 
workspace that would be necessary in buildings. What happens if 
there is a change of Administration or a change of a 
decisionmaking and the next person who might be President has a 
different idea and offers feedback that employees should come 
back to work? Do you believe in any way you would cut yourself 
off from being able to provide that to a new President of the 
United States? Well, I will just let any of you answer. Mr. 
McKnelly?
    Mr. McKnelly. Thank you for the question. I believe any 
approach to space savings has to be carefully planned and has 
to understand that there are potential results where we may 
have to put individuals back into the workplace. So again, 
careful planning----
    Mr. Sessions. And you are taking that into account, I 
gather.
    Mr. McKnelly. Yes, we are.
    Mr. Sessions. OK. Ms. Stevens?
    Ms. Stevens. Thank you for the question. We are as well. We 
have consolidated our domestic workspace here in Washington, 
but we would have to be mindful of the impact of a transition.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Leavitt?
    Mr. Leavitt. And we are continuing to assess our space 
utilization, for example, in the National Capital Region, and 
looking at risk management, risk mitigation is absolutely 
critical for us. And also, a part of risk mitigation is 
ensuring that we have the workforce needed for the future, 
deliver for the American people, and that will entail some 
workplace flexibility.
    Mr. Sessions. Well, that was not the question. The question 
was whether you would be prepared if the next President of 
United States said we are coming back to work, that you have 
not cut yourself off, and I heard you say, no, you have not cut 
yourself off, you would be prepared for that. Mr. Pelter?
    Mr. Pelter. Thank you, Congressman. Reduced footprint 
efforts have not been done in a hasty way, and I think we are 
positioned with proper planning and as needed, where needed, 
creativity to house our workforce over the long term.
    Mr. Sessions. These would be questions of management that 
you would look at on a moving-forward basis, and I would like 
to say that I do not know what the answer will be. What I would 
say is that this is why we hold hearings. We hold hearings not 
to beat you up, but to ask questions and get responses. It does 
deal with effectiveness and efficiency, Mr. Mfume is correct, 
but it also deals with responses that we look for, a 
professional workforce that you represent, to give us those 
leading-edge answers. We do not try and make them up here.
    But I would like for it to be stated that I have not heard 
any, notwithstanding, I have listened to the entire hearing 
today, someone accuse anyone of having improprieties or doing 
the wrong thing. And I think that anyone that would take a 
portion of this to say that one party or the other or one group 
of people here took advantage of the Federal workforce that is 
very important would be an incorrect takeaway. I think that you 
have been treated properly. I think that the questions were all 
fair, and perhaps more importantly, there is respect. There was 
respect from the time we asked the question. Mr. Mfume wanted 
to make sure that the things that we did today, as we always 
do, are done on a bipartisan basis where both of us not only 
certify and agree that what we are trying to get done is 
important, but, in fact, did happen again today.
    So, I yield back my time and would come to the gentlewoman 
for any closing remarks that she has wished to make. The 
gentlewoman, Ms. Lee, is recognized.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I just want to mark that we 
have talked a lot about productivity today in this hearing, and 
I did mention briefly how ironic it is that we would mention 
productivity as we are in the Congress that has been considered 
the least productive since the Great Depression. This hearing 
has been rescheduled twice due to Republicans' dysfunction, not 
being able to elect a Speaker, and bringing the government to 
the brink of a shutdown, but yet we are here to indict 
telework.
    I want to reiterate that telework is work. Teleworking is 
an effective tool that enables continuity of operations and 
reduces Federal costs without sacrificing productivity or 
efficiency. We must hold agencies accountable to collecting 
data that help us gauge and improve performance, as well as 
adopt policies that align with their respective unique 
missions. In our call for agencies to optimize efficiency and 
effectiveness, Congress must also adhere to this call in our 
own work by spearing the agencies to chaos rendered from a 
lurching government shutdown. Telework, again, enhances 
productivity. Shutdowns are the opposite of productive.
    I want to thank our witnesses today and all the public 
servants that keep our government agencies open and serving the 
public under tremendous challenges. Thank you again for being 
with us today. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time on her 
closing statement. I do want to thank her and Mr. Mfume for not 
only working together to where we have solved this issue 
together but also trying to work on closing out what might be 
questions that we would have for you. And so, I would like for 
you to know that what we will plan to do is to have a letter 
within the next few days that would provide you an opportunity 
to provide information for us, and within 15 days after we get 
that to you, which we will very quickly, we would like for you 
to respond back.
    Mr. Sessions. But I want to thank our panelists today for 
taking time. Their professionalism in the workplace was 
exhibited again today. The managerial leadership that you 
provide as perhaps human capital experts for your Agency is 
important to us, your demeanor and you showing up is, but also 
your answers would be important also, and I appreciate that.
    So, without objection, all Members will have 5 legislative 
days within which to submit material and submit additional 
written questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to 
the witnesses very quickly from us.
    Mr. Sessions. I want to thank each of you for taking time. 
Ms. Lee, I want you to know that, typically, Mr. Mfume and I 
will walk down after this and thank each of the witnesses. I 
would welcome you to join me in doing that. And so, on behalf 
of this Subcommittee, Oversight and Government Operations, I 
want to thank each of you for being here, and you are now 
dismissed. This closes the hearing.
    [Whereupon, at 4:21 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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