[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




                     THE POWER OF APPRENTICESHIPS:
                          FASTER, BETTER PATHS
                           TO PROSPEROUS JOBS
                   AND LESS WASTE IN HIGHER EDUCATION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

 SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC GROWTH, ENERGY POLICY, AND REGULATORY AFFAIRS

                                 OF THE

               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                            OCTOBER 25, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-73

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability





               [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
               



                       Available on: govinfo.gov,
                         oversight.house.gov or
                             docs.house.gov

                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

54-070 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2023









               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman

Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking 
Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Ro Khanna, California
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Katie Porter, California
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Cori Bush, Missouri
Byron Donalds, Florida               Shontel Brown, Ohio
Kelly Armstrong, North Dakota        Jimmy Gomez, California
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
William Timmons, South Carolina      Robert Garcia, California
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Maxwell Frost, Florida
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Lisa McClain, Michigan               Greg Casar, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Dan Goldman, New York
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina        Rashida Tlaib, Michigan
Nick Langworthy, New York
Eric Burlison, Missouri

                                 ------                                

                       Mark Marin, Staff Director
       Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
                     Daniel Flores, Senior Counsel
                Kim Waskowsky, Professional Staff Member
      Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5074

                  Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5051
                                 ------                                

 Subcommittee On Economic Growth, Energy Policy, And Regulatory Affairs

                      Pat Fallon, Texas, Chairman

Byron Donalds, Florida               Cori Bush, Missouri, Ranking 
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania                Minority Member
Lisa McClain, Michigan               Shontel Brown, Ohio
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida               Columbia
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina        Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Nick Langworthy, New York            Ro Khanna, California
                                     Vacancy








                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hearing held on October 25, 2023.................................     1

                               Witnesses

Dr. Paul Winfree, President & CEO, The Economic Policy Innovation 
  Center
Oral Statement...................................................     5
Erin Davis Valdez, Policy Director, Next Generation Texas, Texas 
  Public Policy Foundation
Oral Statement...................................................     7
Dr. Casey K. Sacks, President, BridgeValley Community and 
  Technical College
Oral Statement...................................................     9
Tony Ewing, President, Advanced Fixtures, Inc.
Oral Statement...................................................    10
Apryle Gladney (Minority Witness), Associate Vice Chancellor for 
  H.R. Recruitment & Employee Relations, Washington University in 
  St. Louis
Oral Statement...................................................    12

 Opening statements and the prepared statements for the witnesses 
  are available in the U.S. House of Representatives Repository 
  at: docs.house.gov.

                           Index of Documents

                              ----------                              


  * Article, Wall Street Journal, ``Apprenticeships, Not College, 
  Can Help Reduce Unemployment''; submitted by Rep. Fallon.

  * Article, The Heritage Foundation, ``Blanket Loan Forgiveness, 
  Loan Subsidies, and Failed Job Training Programs Are Not The 
  Answer''; submitted by Rep. Fallon.

  * Article, AEI, ``Innovation in Apprenticeships More of the 
  Same''; submitted by Rep. Fallon.

  * Article, AEI, ``Outcomes-Based Higher Education Funding''; 
  submitted by Rep. Fallon.

  * Statement for the Record, The Foundation for Research on 
  Equal Opportunity; submitted by Rep. Fallon.

  * Report, ``Task Force on Apprenticeship Expansion'', Final 
  Report to POTUS dated May 10, 2018; submitted by Rep. Fallon.


The documents listed above are available at: docs.house.gov.








 
                     THE POWER OF APPRENTICESHIPS:
                          FASTER, BETTER PATHS
                           TO PROSPEROUS JOBS
                   AND LESS WASTE IN HIGHER EDUCATION

                              ----------                              


                  Wednesday, October 25, 2023

                        House of Representatives

               Committee on Oversight and Accountability

                Subcommittee on Economic Growth, Energy 
                     Policy, and Regulatory Affairs

                                           Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 4:05 p.m., in 
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Pat Fallon 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Fallon, Fry, Bush, Brown, 
Stansbury, Norton, and Krishnamoorthi.
    Mr. Fallon. This hearing of the Subcommittee of Economic 
Growth, Energy Policy, and Regulatory Affairs will come to 
order.
    I want to welcome everyone on this historic day. We have a 
Speaker of the House. I believe he is the 55th one.
    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any 
time.
    I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening 
statement.
    Now, unlike a lot of the hearings that you hear and see on 
television in Washington, and particularly on the Oversight 
Committee, this hearing is not intended at all to be partisan 
in any way. We are talking about, and we heard speeches, very 
good speeches today on the floor about offering real solutions 
to the American people. And I am looking forward to having a 
very constructive and completely bipartisan discussion, 
hopefully, on America's need for highly skilled labor.
    For 247 years, we built the greatest country history has 
ever known, and now we need to maintain it. And in order to 
maintain that--and I know, I would say, I would venture to 
guess, a lot of my colleagues, everyone that comes into our 
office, every businessperson or business owner, and when we ask 
them, how is your employees, do you have enough employees, are 
you looking, are you short on labor? Every single one of them, 
does not matter what field they are in, they say, we are short 
on labor, particularly and it has been very acute after the 
pandemic and after COVID really hit us, and it hit us hard.
    So again, for decades, Congress has spent billions, without 
pause, pushing students into undergraduate and graduate 
programs after high school. And you know what, getting a 
college degree is great, but that is not going to be the best 
fit for everyone, and we need to acknowledge that and not try 
to put a square peg in a round hole, per se.
    Case in point is my brother-in-law. He got a 2-year degree, 
a technical degree, and he is one of the smartest and most 
knowledgeable people that I know. Mostly self-taught. And he 
just so happened--he was an electrician. He was in the union. 
He is a Massachusetts Democrat. No longer, but that is where he 
started out as. He is a business owner now, employs 150 people. 
They are all union. And he is a multimillionaire. That is the 
American Dream. And he does not have a 4-year degree.
    Most of these folks, these high-tech wizards, left college 
to found these billion-dollar companies. So, I think we just 
need to acknowledge that.
    And according to an NIFB [sic] study that was conducted 
last year, almost half of the business owners reported having 
job openings that could not be filled. Again, lack of labor.
    So, despite this enormous taxpayer investment in higher 
education, businesses are struggling to find qualified workers 
who can do the job. And we all need to do a better job.
    Every President of the United States that I have been 
paying attention to for the last 40 years, when they have their 
bully pulpit--we all have pulpits, but they are smaller ones--
need to celebrate people that have skills in labor and remove 
the stigma. There should not be a stigma at all. You should 
hold your head up high. And if you are a plumber, you should 
have a big--like Superman, like a big P. I am a plumber. I got 
a trade that I can survive in this world in, and I am 
contributing to my community. And when you contribute to your 
community, you are contributing to your country.
    So, you know--so after these expensive degrees, they are 
just getting more and more expensive. The Federal student loan 
debt is over $1.6 trillion, and it only seems like the cost of 
the degrees have increased. Remember when inflation was at 2 
percent? Well, it is higher education. They are going up 9 and 
10 percent. It was completely out of whack. And it is just not 
fair to our youth. And we need to be honest with our youth. 
They can succeed. They can live the American Dream, and it does 
not have to go through a 4-year college.
    So, how is our Nation's manufacturers and businesses 
expected to find qualified jobseekers when we are not 
effectively developing the talent and the training that they 
need? And so, I would like to see career and technical 
education programs, which are another component of helping 
students with practical skills be successful.
    I remember in seventh grade they taught us how to sew. And 
that is just a little trade. I mean, I am not going to get a 
job sewing, but I know how to do it because they taught me in 
seventh grade. And if they did not, I would have no idea what 
to do with that. So, I think like--I will get to our 
witnesses--but having shop back in schools--and my father, who 
passed away a couple of years ago, taught at a vocational high 
school. It was a 2-tier track.
    So, that was--those are good things we need to revisit. You 
know, not everything they did in the 60's and 70's was wrong. 
And not everything we do today is right. So, I think we need to 
not reinvent the wheel and just move forward.
    But the high cost of participation in some Federal programs 
make it difficult for employers to take advantage of some of 
the things and the Federal apprenticeships and what have you. 
But we need to look at the most efficient way to do that. And, 
of course, we have to also understand that they are vulnerable 
to fraud, waste, and abuse.
    So, listen, there are some great people here. I want to 
learn. I want to ask great questions. I want to thank you all 
for coming.
    And we probably have votes in a little under an hour on 
this very historic day. So, I am going to yield right now to my 
Ranking Member, Cori Bush, for the purposes of her making an 
opening statement.
    Ms. Bush. All right. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
    St. Louis and I are here today to discuss the critical 
pathways that apprenticeships work to provide well-paying jobs 
in high-skilled, in-demand industries.
    According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, in 2018, there 
were nearly 600,000 active apprentices in more than 23,000 
registered apprenticeship programs across this country. For the 
industries like healthcare--in the healthcare field, these job 
opportunities fill crucial staffing gaps left in the wake of 
the pandemic.
    According to reporting in the Wall Street Journal, the 
number of apprenticeships has increased about 50 percent over 
the past decade. Major U.S. companies have created 
apprenticeship programs to train the next generation of skilled 
employees, including companies like JP Morgan and Delta 
Airlines.
    Research shows that completion of an apprenticeship means 
more than just a job. It means embarking on a career that can 
enable dedicated workers to be able to care for their families 
without having to work three jobs. It also means acquiring 
skills that can provide a ladder into financial stability 
rather than a cycle of inescapable debt.
    Today, I am extremely proud to welcome to the Subcommittee 
Ms. Apryle Gladney, the Associate Vice Chancellor for Human 
Resources Recruitment and Employee Relations at Washington 
University in St. Louis, proudly located in Missouri's First 
congressional District, along with your director.
    Ms. Gladney will share with us how Washington University 
has created an innovative medical apprenticeship program that 
bolsters the diversity of the healthcare industry one student 
at a time.
    As a nurse, I know firsthand how important it is for our 
healthcare professionals to be as diverse as our communities, 
particularly during a time of historic challenges in the 
medical and nursing fields.
    To foster these types of apprentice programs and success 
stories, increasing Federal support--it is vital. Obtaining a 
higher education has never been more expensive yet necessary 
for career development and financial stability. The 
astronomical cost of higher education in our country is a 
disgrace. And for me, I say it all the time, it should be debt 
free. In addition to eliminating high tuition that leads to 
student debt, our communities also deserve a variety of 
pathways that lead to gainful employment and diversify our 
workforce.
    For Fiscal Year 2024, Congress authorized more than $1.3 
billion for the Perkins program, which provides support to 
career and technical education programs, and it should be fully 
funded. Similarly, through the Workforce Innovation and 
Opportunity Act, the WIOA--there we go--WIOA, Congress has 
appropriated billions to support training and adult literacy 
programs. And more Federal funding we know is needed to support 
an increasingly diverse workforce.
    My Republican colleagues have proposed steep cuts to these 
programs that would devastate job training and apprenticeship 
programs and communities like mine across our country. For 
example, Republicans' draft Labor-H appropriations bill for 
Fiscal Year 2024 sought to eliminate funding for adult and 
youth job training programs under WIOA, which would cut across 
access for more than 400,000 adults and youths.
    Finally, I note that there are many postsecondary 
educational options available for students, but not all of them 
are accessible to everyone. We want all options to be 
accessible to all students. All meaning all.
    I join my colleagues in our commitment to that financial 
need, and we understand that financial need should not stand in 
a student's way of accessing the educational opportunity that 
is right for them. And whether that is an apprenticeship, 
whether that is a community college, or whether that is a 4-
year degree, that is up to them.
    I deeply appreciate Washington University's efforts to 
remove barriers that can prevent students from attending that 
prestigious institution in my district. And I applaud the 
Biden-Harris Administration for their efforts to relieve the 
crushing weight of student debt in this Nation.
    Thank you to all of our witnesses for being here. And thank 
you, Mr. Chairman, for this hearing.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you.
    Joining us this afternoon is a group of experts 
representing several different corners of the country, each 
bringing, well, a unique perspective to these issues.
    First, we have Dr. Paul Winfree, President and CEO of the 
Economic Policy Innovation Center, or EPIC. And Dr. Winfree has 
served in top management and policy roles in the White House, 
the U.S. Senate, and several think tanks.
    And we have Erin Davis Valdez, serves as the policy 
director for Next Generation Texas, an education initiative of 
the Texas Public Policy Foundation.
    We have Dr. Casey Sacks, who serves as the President of 
BridgeValley Community and Technical College in West Virginia. 
She previously served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary for 
Community Colleges at the U.S. Department of Education from 
2018 to 2021.
    And then we have my friend, Tony Ewing, from the great free 
state of Texas, who is the founder and President of Advanced 
Fixtures, Incorporated, located in Farmersville, Texas. Mr. 
Ewing founded his business 40 years ago from scratch and 
currently employs about 150 people. And Advanced Fixtures 
specializes in manufacturing metal and wood retail store 
fixtures.
    And finally, we have Apryle Gladney, who serves as the 
Associate Vice Chancellor for H.R. Recruitment and Employment 
Relations for Washington University in St. Louis. Very good 
school.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please 
stand and raise their right hands.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you 
are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God.
    Wonderful.
    Let the record show that the witnesses answered in the 
affirmative.
    Please take your seats.
    So, we appreciate you all for being here, and we look 
forward to your testimony. Let me remind you that we read your 
written statements, and they will appear in full in the hearing 
record.
    Please limit your oral statements, if you could, to 5 
minutes. As a reminder, please press the little button that 
says ``talk'' in front of you. And when you begin to speak, you 
will have a light; it will be green for 4 minutes, and then it 
will go to yellow for 1 minute, and then red. And if you can 
kind of wrap it up when you see the red. You know, it is kind 
of like a yellow light, you kind of zip through. So, if you 
could treat it like that, that would be great.
    And I now recognize Dr. Paul Winfree for his opening 
statement.

                     STATEMENT OF DR. PAUL WINFREE

                           PRESIDENT AND CEO

                   ECONOMIC POLICY INNOVATION CENTER

    Mr. Winfree. Thank you so much.
    And thank you, Chairman Fallon and Ranking Member Bush. And 
thank you for your opening statements. You know, we are going 
to try to add to them this afternoon, but they were really 
phenomenal, and thank you so much for your comments.
    Apprenticeships have existed for hundreds of years. 
However, the apprenticeship model has evolved dramatically 
alongside the labor market. Today, vocational training and 
apprenticeships can improve labor market outcomes, increase 
income, and expand social mobility.
    But the U.S. has limited vocational education. In fact, 
vocational education in the U.S. has declined since the 1970's, 
when about half of all students were enrolled in a vocational 
track. Today, less than 20 percent of students are enrolled in 
vocational education.
    Most European countries, on the other hand, have policies 
that foster apprenticeships. For example, Austria, Denmark, 
Germany, Norway, and Switzerland all have apprenticeship 
programs incorporated into general education.
    This afternoon, I want to highlight a few successful models 
that perhaps we can learn from. In the 1990's, Norway 
integrated vocational and general education for high school 
students, while expanding apprenticeship access. These reforms 
increase income in adulthood as well as economic mobility. In 
fact, earning a vocational degree and going into an 
apprenticeship program after graduation in Norway amounted to 
almost $30,000 in additional earnings at age 30 compared to 
earning no degree.
    To expand apprenticeships in STEM, the United Kingdom is 
experimenting with degree apprenticeships that allow students 
to work while earning a bachelor's or master's degree. These 
students generally graduate without student debt, and they have 
a median wage of more than $40,000 while they are in the 
program, while they are students.
    Why might similar vocational education and apprenticeship 
models be successful in the United States? Well, my co-author, 
Rachel Greszler, and I recently found that younger cohorts, 
those between the ages of 20 and 24, were slow to join the 
labor market after the U.S. economy began to recover from the 
initial pandemic-related closures. We also found that this 
cohort was not going to college at higher rates despite not 
working. This reflects a reversal of historic patterns because 
younger cohorts had been joining the labor market and going to 
school at increasingly higher rates since the recovery from the 
2008 and 2009 financial crisis.
    We propose that apprenticeships can bring people back into 
the labor market by providing a path from vocational-education 
high school to job upon graduation. Furthermore, industry-led 
apprenticeships create an incentive for businesses to invest in 
skills for their workers that increase productivity for the 
firm, while simultaneously increasing competitiveness of the 
worker. This translates into higher wages, as we all know.
    In countries where robust apprenticeship programs exist, 
employment for men under the age of 35 is significantly higher 
for those who complete a vocational degree compared to a 
typical general education degree in high school. Just saying 
that again. For those under the age of 35, in countries that 
have an apprenticeship program, employment is higher than for 
those who just graduate high school.
    The U.S. education system requires more of a focus on 
vocational learning to be successful for its students. This 
will require reducing any perceived stigma from vocational 
education. Many scholars have noted that vocational education 
in the U.S. has tended to segregate economically disadvantaged 
students or is an alternative track for underperforming 
students. In contrast, the Norwegian model improves the quality 
of vocational education while better connecting it with a paid 
apprenticeship on graduation. This helps reduce the stigma 
through increased economic opportunities.
    That said, reform must begin at the local level, in our 
high schools and community colleges--and some of my colleagues 
are going to talk about that after I am finished here--and it 
should also involve close partnerships with job creators. This 
way America's students will have access to cutting-edge 
technical skills and mentorship by leaders in their fields. 
Fostering such an educational environment has the potential to 
increase innovation, productivity, and wages for a group of 
students who are currently being left behind.
    The Federal Government can encourage necessary innovation 
in the education system by first doing no harm. During the 
Trump Administration, U.S. Department of Labor initiated 
Industry-Recognized Apprenticeship Programs, or IRAPs. The new 
IRAP model created a pathway for flexible, industry-driven 
apprenticeships that were an alternative to the traditional 
models that had been recognized by the Federal Government. This 
led to 130 new apprenticeship programs in high-demand fields, 
including nursing, during a time when our country needed them 
the most. However, last year, the Biden Administration canceled 
this initiative, and reverted back to the pre-2017 policy that 
has failed to demonstrate success beyond the male-dominated 
manual labor trades.
    I would encourage that Congress revisit the IRAP model and 
other successful models of vocational education and 
apprenticeships, not simply as an alternative to the education 
system, but as a core element to better prepare students for an 
evolving economy.
    Thank you very much, and I look forward to questions.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Valdez is recognized for her 5-minute opening 
statement.

                   STATEMENT OF MS. ERIN DAVIS VALDEZ

                            POLICY DIRECTOR

                         NEXT GENERATION TEXAS

                     TEXAS PUBLIC POLICY FOUNDATION

    Ms. Valdez. Thank you.
    Chairman Fallon, Ranking Member Bush, and Subcommittee 
Members, thank you so much for inviting me here today. I am so 
encouraged that this Committee is taking up this vitally 
important topic.
    As you have heard today, and I think it bears repeating 
because the statistics should be emblazoned on all of our 
hearts and minds, college for all is not working for all. There 
is a $1.77 trillion student loan crisis in this country, and 
that is tripled since 2008. Fifty-two percent of college 
graduates graduate with debt. The average amount is $29,000. 
Only 62 percent of students graduate within 6 years.
    The New York Reserve Bank tells us that an increasing 
percentage of recent college graduates are underemployed, with 
about 41 percent holding a job that does not require a degree, 
and about the same percent, 38 percent, regretting their choice 
of degree.
    Employers tell us in survey after survey--and we will hear 
probably from one of them today--that they cannot find 
qualified workers. There are 9.6 million job openings right 
now. 1.4 million fewer Americans are in the workforce than in 
February 2020. As of early 2022, over 7 million prime-age males 
were neither working nor looking for work. That represents 11 
percent of the total prime-age male labor pool and three times 
the percentage from 1965.
    The costs are stark. Open positions cost employers dearly. 
According to one estimate, America spends about $1.1 trillion 
annually on postsecondary education and training. A recent 
Gallup Poll shows that Americans are rapidly losing trust in 
higher education. Only 36 percent say that they have a great 
deal or a lot of faith in higher education, which is 20 points 
lower than 2015.
    The causes, I think, are worth examining if we are going to 
look at possible solutions. The most glaring cause of this is a 
set of misaligned incentives. Providers and even incumbent 
workers benefit from prolonged required training periods. 
Higher education uses a Carnegie Unit system, which was 
originated in the early 20th century, based literally on seat 
time, how much time you spend being instructed. That is an 
input. Even recent moves toward so-called outcomes-based 
funding models could use improvement because sometimes they are 
based on outputs, like degrees, certificates, even, you know, a 
high school diploma. These are outputs. These are not outcomes.
    Our apprenticeship system, as we have just heard, is 
antiquated. Employers in many cases are daunted by the red tape 
of a registered apprenticeship program. In some cases, well-
meaning regulations or liability concerns restrict the kind of 
work that students still in high school actually can do, which 
limits their ability to gain meaningful on-the-job experience 
while they are still in high school and extends the amount of 
time it will take them to enter the workforce.
    Both systems depend to a large extent on time-based or 
time-restricted inputs, not mastery or ability to demonstrate 
skills. This drives up the cost of higher education and 
vocational education. We need a student-centered system.
    The good news is there are solutions, and we have got a 
couple from Texas that I would like to share with you today. 
First is a system that is based on a funding model that is 
called the returned-value funding model. This was innovated by 
the Texas State Technical College system. It is a statewide 
system. It is not a community college, it is a technical 
college, and it is public.
    It aligns the incentives of employers and students with 
those of the system, because they are not paid based on contact 
hours or seat time, they are paid a commission on the returned 
value that their alumni generate for the state. In other words, 
student success is their success. This causes them to be 
aligned with the needs of their community. This causes them to 
be aligned with the needs of their students. They have 
eliminated 13 programs since they initiated this funding model, 
which were not serving the needs of their community or their 
students.
    We need to encourage employers to engage in sector-driven 
earn-and-learn programs. One of them is the FAME program that 
you will hear more about in just a moment. It has chapters in 
14 states. One study showed that FAME graduates were earning 
nearly $98,000 a year compared to roughly $52,000 for non-FAME 
participants after 5 years.
    More industries could adopt this approach. We need to give 
more high school students a chance to engage in work-based 
learning, while they are still in high school, meaningful paid 
work-based learning. We have many examples of this working in 
different sectors.
    In short, we need to rethink the way we are doing 
vocational and higher education, and we need to focus more on 
the outcomes for students and not on the inputs for systems.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you.
    Dr. Sacks.

                    STATEMENT OF DR. CASEY K. SACKS

                               PRESIDENT

              BRIDGEVALLEY COMMUNITY AND TECHNICAL COLLEGE

    Ms. Sacks. Chairman Fallon, Ranking Member Bush, and other 
Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to 
address you today on the topic of strengthening workforce 
development through innovative education models and financial 
accountability.
    I am Casey Sacks, the President of BridgeValley Community 
and Technical College in West Virginia. I have previously 
served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Community Colleges 
at the United States Department of Education, as the Vice 
Chancellor for the West Virginia Community and Technical 
College System, and in various roles with the Colorado 
Community College System. In all of my work, I have focused on 
community college excellence and workforce development. My 
passion is connecting people to work.
    With my background in education and workforce development, 
I have witnessed firsthand the transformative power of 
innovative education models. Today I am going to highlight four 
key strategies that can help America have a more prepared 
workforce.
    First, community colleges. They anchor their local job 
markets and deliver 2-year degrees and short-term credentials. 
Their unique positioning communities allows for a strong 
understanding of employment. By aligning educational programs 
closely with local demands, community colleges produce 
graduates with skills that are tailored to their regional 
workforce, ensuring a seamless transition from education to 
employment. Their emphasis on practical skill development and 
hands-on training empowers graduates, making them ready to meet 
the demands of the local job landscape.
    Second, innovative work-based learning programs can 
integrate academic learning with real-world experience. 
Students study at community colleges while at the same time 
they receive mentoring and hands-on training with future 
employers. In West Virginia, a program aptly called Learn and 
Earn places students in programs where they can earn money 
working in their field of study. For example, through the 
Federation of Advanced Manufacturing Education, or FAME, we 
work with Toyota, Nucor, and other area manufacturers who hire 
our students from our advanced manufacturing technology 
program, and those students work as technicians in the area. 
They earn, on average, $88,000 when they graduate with their 2-
year degree.
    In the Learn and Earn program, businesses are incentivized 
from the state with a 50/50 salary match, and our economic 
developers see the program as a unique selling proposition when 
they recruit companies to our local region.
    Another innovation includes charter schools that integrate 
high school early college education with 2-year college 
programs. These early colleges offer a promising model to 
achieve workforce readiness. By providing seamless transitions 
from secondary to higher education, these schools can bridge 
the gap between academic learning and practical skills 
training.
    This fall, BridgeValley welcomed our inaugural class of the 
WIN Academy. It is the workforce initiative. The innovative 
charter school has been modeled after successful programs in 
Florida, Ohio, and North Carolina, and integrates high school 
education with required nursing courses for an RN degree. 
Graduates earn both their high school diploma and an associate 
degree in nursing in just 3 years.
    Fourth, community colleges offer affordable education. 
Implementing financial incentives for programs that have 
excellent labor market outcomes can help inform decisions about 
program of study and decrease debt. The West Virginia Invests 
Grant covers tuition and fees for program areas that align with 
the state's workforce needs. West Virginia Invests not only 
reduces financial barriers for students, but also strategically 
addresses skills gaps in the state. The targeted approach 
ensures that resources are allocated to support programs that 
are essential for economic growth in our region.
    Community colleges are very affordable, but Congress could 
take additional steps to improve their value. For example, 
Congress could allow states to develop actuarial tables that 
could prevent overborrowing in fields that will not likely lead 
to jobs with strong wage outcomes.
    Partnerships with local businesses can also help students 
prepare for work more affordably. For example, the aspiring 
nurse program that BridgeValley has a partnership with WVU 
Medicine. We provide nursing students with up to $25,000, in 
addition to the state grants and scholarships that already 
cover tuition and fees for their nursing program. The hospital 
recognized that our students could be a flat tire away from 
dropping out of school, and they want to prevent that from 
happening, while meeting their own long-term workforce needs, 
so they pay students to go to school.
    By replicating models like we have at BridgeValley and 
expanding their scope, communities can create a robust 
educational infrastructure that aligns with workforce demands, 
fostering skilled workforce training to fill specific open 
positions ready to tackle the challenges of the future.
    I am honored to share my experiences and strategies with 
you today, and I am ready to answer any questions you may have.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you.
    The Chair now recognizes Mr. Ewing from the free state of 
Texas.

                      STATEMENT OF MR. TONY EWING

                               PRESIDENT

                        ADVANCED FIXTURES, INC.

    Mr. Ewing. Good afternoon. I want to thank Chairman Pat 
Fallon and Ranking Member Cori Bush and all the Members of this 
Committee for this incredible honor to speak to you today.
    My name is Tony Ewing. I am President and CEO of Advanced 
Fixtures, Incorporated. AFI is a manufacturer of retail store 
fixtures. We work with wood, metal, glass, acrylic, and some 
electrical components. I am also managing partner of EdgeTec. 
EdgeTec sells new and used tow trucks. We attach tow truck 
bodies to a truck's chassis. This requires welders and 
technicians with electrical and hydraulic experience.
    I am extremely fortunate that I had a grandfather who spent 
time with me on weekends. He worked in the maintenance 
department of LTV, a large defense contractor. He taught me the 
basics of all the trades. At the time I did not realize it, but 
he was teaching me skills that I would continue to use the rest 
of my life.
    I was lucky to be a member of the first graduating class of 
Sam Houston Junior High School--junior high school--in Irving, 
Texas. In 1977 standards, it was considered to be a state-of-
the-art school: open concept, circular ramps to all the floors, 
and bright colors on the walls. The industrial arts classrooms 
were all located in the same hallway leading to the gym. These 
classrooms had a storefront of glass along the hallway that 
allowed you to see inside the entire industrial arts area. To 
this day, I can still picture the woodshop with all the heavy-
duty green Powermatic equipment.
    Needless to say, it was extremely enticing to me, so I 
signed up for woodshop. I was surprised when at the end-of-the-
year awards ceremony my name was called for the who's who in 
woodworking.
    Sam Houston Junior High helped me find my niche in life. 
However, in high school, I learned that if I was good enough, I 
could play any sport for 4 years. But regardless of talent, I 
was limited to 2 years of industrial arts.
    College was not an option when I graduated from high school 
in 1981, so I accepted my first job offer. I was fortunate to 
work for a supervisor that was more of a mentor than a boss. He 
taught me the basics of building store fixtures. Over the next 
15 months, I started taking classes at North Lake Junior 
College, quit my job, celebrated my 20th birthday, and started 
my first company. Three months after starting Ewing Remodeling, 
I quit junior college and changed the company name to Advanced 
Fixtures.
    I did not have the opportunity for a formal training 
program. I was blessed by a grandfather that taught me life 
skills, by Sam Houston Junior High School that placed 
industrial arts in front of every student every day, by a 
country that provides endless opportunity, by mentors that have 
always been there when I needed answers or when I needed a 
swift kick in the pants, and today with a wife that keeps me 
grounded.
    We cannot go back to the world I grew up in, but I do 
believe we need to adjust the narrative on how we view 
education for our children and grandchildren.
    Eleven years ago, AFI started recruiting from Pittsburg 
State University in Pittsburg, Kansas. We have one of the best 
wood technology programs in the country. Scott Vasey and Chris 
Bell sitting right here behind me are both proud Gorillas.
    From 2011 to 2023, Pitt state had from 8 to 17 graduating 
seniors in their wood tech program. On average, that is 14 
graduating seniors per year. Their spring company day event 
attracts from 22 to 31 companies. That is 25 companies, on 
average, trying to attract 14 graduates. Most of these 
companies would hire more than one graduate, and more companies 
would attend if there were more students. I am confident 
Pittsburg State could increase the size of their program by 400 
percent, and students would still have multiple job offers.
    In 2016, AFI started hosting high school juniors and 
seniors and their parents at our facility in Farmersville, 
Texas. The purpose of the event was to attract more students to 
Pitt State and ultimately back to AFI. All of these students 
were in a local wood tech program. The first 2 years of the 
event were somewhat frustrating because 95 percent of the 
parents would not engage. The third year we changed things up. 
We separated the students from their parents. The students 
toured the facility, and I invited the parents to my conference 
room to discuss the opportunities in our industry.
    After that meeting, it was clear that a large majority of 
the parents were there because their child asked them to 
attend. They showed little to no interest in their child 
working in the trades. There was a clear lack of understanding 
of the potential opportunity for their child.
    We have to change the narrative in our country if we want 
every American student to have the opportunity to live the 
American Dream.
    Four-year college is clearly not for everyone. I do not 
have a degree. Yet for all the reasons I listed, I have had the 
honor to lead a successful and growing company for over 40 
years, influenced hundreds of employees and contributed to 
their livelihoods. We need to incentivize local school 
districts to help students find their God-given talents. Then 
we have to train them, so they have confidence to be productive 
citizens.
    I am by no means an expert on what Germany is doing today, 
but it is clear that their education system regarding the 
trades seems far superior to ours. Just a few stats on that. 
About 51 percent of Germany's workers are skilled workers 
trained in their vocational program. A further 11 percent of 
workers are master craftsmen. Germany's vocational schools 
partner with around 430,000 companies, and more than 80 percent 
of large companies hire apprentices.
    I would wrap this up by saying that I know a few of these 
people that have gone through the program, and it started in 
ninth grade, and they were given a path and given a direction. 
And I know how I was in ninth grade. I did not know where, what 
I wanted to do. But the schools were set up to send them on a 
path either to university or vocational training. I think by 
the time they get to high school, it is almost too late, or out 
of high school.
    I want to thank you for allowing me to speak to you today. 
I would be happy to answer any questions.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you, Mr. Ewing.
    The Chair now recognizes Ms. Gladney for her opening 
statement.

                    STATEMENT OF MS. APRYLE GLADNEY

                     ASSOCIATE VICE CHANCELLOR FOR

                 H.R. RECRUITMENT & EMPLOYEE RELATIONS

                   WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY IN ST. LOUIS

    Ms. Gladney. Good afternoon, Chairman Fallon, Ranking 
Member Bush, and Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for 
inviting me to appear and share the work of the Medical 
Apprenticeship program at Washington University in St. Louis.
    I am Apryle Gladney, the Associate Vice Chancellor for 
Human Resources at the university.
    WashU is a private, nonprofit research-intensive university 
with a mission to act in service of truth through the formation 
of leaders, discovery of knowledge, and the treatment of 
patients, for the betterment of our region, our Nation, and our 
world.
    The inception of our Medical Apprenticeship program at 
WashU came out of pure need from the School of Medicine and its 
interest in accomplishing dual priorities: First, to provide 
means to fill critical patient care openings, specifically 
those who would actually assist patients in their office 
visits. And second, to create an end road for underserved and 
underemployed segments of the St. Louis community by offering a 
nontraditional pathway into a career in healthcare.
    Many think of WashU School of Medicine and instantly think 
of high-level faculty as well as high-level healthcare roles, 
such as physicians, nurses, nurse practitioners, and the like. 
But our aim with this program was to increase awareness of the 
wide spectrum of roles that are equally as vital to ensure 
patients have a quality experience in our ambulatory and 
outpatient clinic setting. Registered medical assistants 
represents one of those roles.
    Our program was registered by the U.S. Department of Labor 
in May 2018, and its first cohort began several months later in 
October, and has been led by Mrs. Kathy Clark, who is our 
Director of the Medical Apprenticeship program, who joins me 
here today.
    Apprentices in our program can either be new hires from the 
community or incumbent workers looking to transition into a 
career within healthcare. Our program requirements are simple: 
You must have a high school diploma or a GED with a preference 
of prior customer service or clinical experience. There is no 
specific degree requirement for those who want to participate 
in the program or for the subsequent role as a medical 
assistant. We simply ask that medical assistants be registered 
and complete basic life-support training.
    Our apprentices are hired by WashU as regular full-time, 
benefits-eligible employees from day one. This is an aspect 
that helps to set us apart in our program from more traditional 
historic apprenticeships. We offer competitive starting salary, 
as well as immediate access for individuals to enroll in a full 
array of employee benefits, to include health, dental, 
retirement savings, et cetera.
    Our program is a yearlong program that is separated into 
two phases. First, the first 3 months are designed so 
apprentices are able to get hands-on training in the clinic 
setting, 36 hours a week, with 4 hours per week being in an in-
classroom facilitated training session where they are able to 
get help and assistance so that they complete the credentialing 
exam at the end of the 3-month timeframe.
    The second phase is month 4 through 12, and it is focused 
on support and direct mentorship of our newly created and 
credentialed employees. The program hosts individual and group 
sessions that help with skill refinement and development as 
well as professional development.
    We intentionally keep the program classes small, normally 
between 4 to 10 people, so that we can foster that one-on-one 
mentorship opportunity.
    The success of our program is one that we remain very proud 
of. Our outreach efforts for the program include both 
traditional and creative connections to find suitable 
participants, from holding onsite job fairs to participating in 
virtual and in-person career fairs, even to participating in 
different community events.
    We also coordinate a lot of hiring forums in concert with 
other large employers within the St. Louis area. We created a 
network with member institutions in St. Louis called the St. 
Louis Anchor Action Network, with the specific goal of focusing 
on representative communities that have suffered from decades 
of disinvestment.
    We continue to be proud of our program's success. As of 
September 2023, the WashU Medical Apprenticeship program has 
enrolled 292 apprentices with 170 graduates. We currently have 
73 that are within their first year, and 49, unfortunately, who 
are not able to complete that program. Our average program 
participant is a single parent who has not only the 
responsibility of supporting their own children, but a lot of 
cases family members that live in their household.
    We are confident that our program model is making a great 
impact on the St. Louis area and for WashU School of Medicine, 
not just in hiring, but also in helping with the community.
    From a personal perspective, I can attribute my own career 
progression to several nontraditional ways and experiences that 
allowed me to seek other opportunities that I did not feel, 
whether it was in research, whether it was in corporate, or in 
healthcare, that were instantly available to me. This is one of 
the main focuses and goals for our apprenticeship program.
    In conclusion, we enthusiastically support the government 
in its efforts to ensure Americans continue to have access to 
nontraditional pathways for careers. WashU fully supports all 
efforts to increase and diversify funding for the continued 
growth and development of apprenticeship program. I am happy 
and available to answer any questions.
    Thank you very much.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you.
    The Chair now recognizes Ranking Member Bush for her 5 
minutes of questions.
    Ms. Bush. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    This hearing provides an opportunity for me to highlight an 
economic opportunity success story in my hometown, which you 
just heard about, in St. Louis. But before I get into that, I 
just want to say, all of these programs being able to change 
the trajectory of someone's life, it changes not only that 
individual, but it changes their family, it changes their 
community, which means it changes our country. And I just want 
to say just thank you for the work that all of you are doing.
    But now I am going to talk about Washington University in 
St. Louis, affectionately known as WashU, is located in my 
district. WashU provides a world-class education to its 
students, particularly its teaching hospital. Barnes-Jewish 
Christian Hospital at Washington University Medical Center, a 
place where I have been myself multiple times, is the largest 
hospital in Missouri and the largest private employer in the 
St. Louis region.
    In 2018, the university launched a medical apprenticeship 
program, offering training and opportunities to unemployed and 
underemployed members of the local community.
    Ms. Gladney, what prompted the Washington University 
Hospital System to start this Medical Apprenticeship program?
    Ms. Gladney. Thank you for the question. It truly came out 
of need. We had a number of openings at the time, were having a 
hard time creating a pipeline where there were individuals who 
even thought of WashU as a place for this level of position. As 
I mentioned in my statement, a lot of people think of higher-
level titles and attribute that to WashU, not recognizing.
    So as we decided that there were a number of needs that we 
wanted to kind of grow our own and attempted to walk down the 
path of how can we do that, how can we find individuals who 
might be under skilled, might be unemployed, might be 
underemployed, and give them an opportunity to have access to 
not only us as an employer, but all the rich benefits that we 
have to offer, including the tuition assistance. So, it truly 
came out of those two needs.
    Ms. Bush. And as a nurse who has worked in the hospital and 
in clinics--medical assistants, if we just talk about medical 
assistants, they are so needed, and they do not get enough 
credit. And so, thank you for filling a need in our community 
and for diversifying the healthcare workforce.
    Let me also ask you, since the program was established in 
2018, is WashU able to fill its openings for medical 
assistance?
    Ms. Gladney. We are able to fill, but the need based on the 
growth of the campus and within the region, the needs continue 
to grow. So even as of today, I have just short of a hundred of 
these positions available. So----
    Ms. Bush. Oh.
    Ms. Gladney [continuing]. The growth in the program has 
clearly helped. If I could expand the program, which is 
something that Ms. Clark and I have been discussing, that would 
be wonderful, but there are still needs that are outpacing the 
progression within the program. So there continue to be needs 
based on the growth of the medical school and their clinical 
enterprise.
    Ms. Bush. Thank you.
    I am absolutely encouraged by these efforts. Healthcare we 
know is a critical industry, and hospitals everywhere struggle 
to find the trained staff that is needed to give quality care 
to all of our patients. Washington University saw a need, just 
as all of you, all of our other witnesses, WashU built the 
infrastructure to fill those gaps.
    Ms. Gladney, how much do these programs cost the students, 
and is there an education requirement?
    Ms. Gladney. So, the program is no cost to the 
participants. We rely heavily on our community partners who 
have backing from Federal, state, and local, you know, funding 
sources to allow us to afford this opportunity at no cost. So, 
they start, they are making a wage, they have benefits. We have 
funding that helps to cover the programmatic costs. And also, 
we partner with those same institutions to help provide for 
some of the other things that might be considered hindrances or 
barriers for our students. So, if there are family care needs 
and getting access to affordable, whether that is childcare or 
elder care, transportation needs, in addition to providing a 
laptop, providing--you know, proctoring the exam, paying for 
the exam, so there is no cost to the individuals.
    Ms. Bush. Thank you very much. And I will yield back there.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you.
    So, votes were just called. So, what we are going to do, 
Members, is go ahead and we are going to recess, and then we 
are going to--it is just the one vote, so just go over and vote 
and come on right back. So maybe try to reconvene in, is it 
fair to say, do you want to say 20 minutes? Twenty minutes? OK.
    So pursuant to the previous order, the Chair declares the 
Committee in recess, subject to the call of the Chair.
    The Committee stands in recess.
    [Recess.]
    Mr. Fallon. The Subcommittee on Economic Growth, Energy, 
and Regulatory Affairs is now back in session. Yes, it is in 
session.
    Welcome, and thank you. Again, just an historic day and our 
schedules got moved around. I want to thank the witnesses as 
well for being so accommodating. You were supposed to be here 
at 2, and then we moved it to 4 with less than 24 hours' 
notice. So, thank you very much for that.
    I would now recognize myself for the purpose of asking 
questions.
    Mr. Ewing, in your humble opinion, would you describe your 
journey over the last 40 years as the American Dream?
    Mr. Ewing. Yes.
    Mr. Fallon. And you said early in your testimony that your 
grandfather had taught you some basic trade skills, and you 
also took wood shop in high school--or junior high?
    Mr. Ewing. Junior high and high school.
    Mr. Fallon. When you started your company at 20 years of 
age, 20 years old, if I heard you correctly----
    Mr. Ewing. Yes.
    Mr. Fallon [continuing]. What kind of capital did you have? 
Because that is what we hear a lot of folks say. You know, I 
understand it is a difficult journey. I took it myself. I took 
it later when I had a couple dollars in my pocket, not many, 
but a few. How did you do that?
    Mr. Ewing. Well, I had $500, and I went to the bank----
    Mr. Fallon. And what year was this?
    Mr. Ewing. This was in 1981.
    Mr. Fallon. So, you had saved up $500, and you started your 
own business?
    Mr. Ewing. Right.
    Mr. Fallon. And then what? Just Reader's Digest, because we 
only have 5 minutes. And then what happened?
    Mr. Ewing. I borrowed $5,000 from the bank, which today you 
could not do. But, fortunately, my grandfather convinced me to 
start my credit up when I was 16, and I bought a car and did 
that. And so, I had, you know, 4 years' of credit history, and 
that allowed me to get the $5,000. And I bought equipment.
    Mr. Fallon. Fair to say if you did not have that guidance 
and mentorship from people that loved you, you probably would 
not be sitting right here answering these questions about being 
successful?
    Mr. Ewing. I think that is very fair to say.
    Mr. Fallon. Yes. OK.
    Mr. Ewing. Because it gave me a good start.
    Mr. Fallon. How do you think the industrial arts have 
changed since you were in high school?
    Mr. Ewing. Well, I mean, they are pretty nonexistent. I 
mean, when I was in Irving, Texas, every junior high and every 
high school had industrial arts. Every one.
    Mr. Fallon. Yes. What challenges do you think you are 
experiencing now attracting high school kids to your business? 
I mean, so do you right now have--you have a company of about 
150 people. Do you have all the labor that you need?
    Mr. Ewing. No. The office talent and sales, project 
managers, accounting, we have no challenges there. Our 
challenge is in production.
    Mr. Fallon. If a labor angel came down right now and gave 
you really highly qualified folks, how many could you literally 
hire right now, do you think?
    Mr. Ewing. Thirty.
    Mr. Fallon. In your company of 150, so 20--you could 
increase your workforce right now 20 percent?
    Mr. Ewing. We could--right, yes.
    Mr. Fallon. Wow. Well, I mean, again, I think we have all 
heard it, when people come into our offices, everybody is 
starving for labor and particularly skilled labor.
    What do you think we could do--what is your company doing 
to create interest? Because you touched on that in your 
testimony.
    Mr. Ewing. We are working with several school districts 
that have industrial arts programs. One of them is in 
Lewisville, Texas. It is called Dale Jackson. It is a separate 
school. And I believe the fact that it is separate, students 
just are not really aware of it. I mean, in junior high, I 
walked by the industrial arts classes every day when I went to 
the gym. It was in front of me, so it was an option. Today it 
is not.
    And the thing is that the students that do find it, it is 
now--it is an extra battle to try to get parents to understand 
that there is an incredible opportunity, because we are not 
just a wood shop. I mean, we have millions of dollars of very 
high-tech CNC equipment, and it is not like the little wood 
shop. But these guys behind me, they know the basics of wood, 
which you need to know because that is part of it.
    Mr. Fallon. Somebody working with wood like that, skilled 
laborer that has been working for 10 years, what are you paying 
them?
    Mr. Ewing. Skilled?
    Mr. Fallon. Uh-huh.
    Mr. Ewing. If they are skilled and they have the talent to 
do what we need to do, they are making from $25 to $28 an hour, 
plus benefits.
    Mr. Fallon. Is that to start or a year in or----
    Mr. Ewing. Well, if they have experience--I mean, we hired 
an experienced painter at $28 an hour, what, I think probably a 
year ago.
    Mr. Fallon. OK.
    Dr. Winfree, can we touch on--because we talked about it a 
little bit earlier, and I mentioned it, about the stigma that 
we seem to have in the United States with, oh, if you do not 
have a 4-year degree and, oh, you are just--because words 
matter, right--you are just a tradesman or a tradeswoman of 
some sort. What does Germany do differently?
    Mr. Winfree. Well, one of the things that other countries 
do is that they integrate their vocational education in the 
normal academic tracks, right. So, you are not separating 
students coming out of middle school. You are putting them all 
under the same school. They do not have to choose to, you know, 
go to a school without their friends. They can be right there. 
And if they get halfway through high school and they are on the 
academic track or they are on the vocational track, they can 
choose a different track halfway through high school. And that 
is really important.
    It is really important to reducing the stigma, and it is 
also important to providing options to those high school 
students while they are in high school still making decisions 
about, you know, what they want to do with the rest of their 
lives. I mean, I sure as heck did not know what I wanted to do 
at 16 or 18 or maybe even 25. That is why I have a Ph.D.
    Mr. Fallon. I think a lot of us up here do not know what we 
want to do.
    Mr. Winfree. But, you know, that is so critical to these 
models that have been tried in other countries that we, 
honestly, should learn from. And that used to be the way that 
things were done in the United States. I mean, I think as Tony 
mentioned earlier, you know, half of all high school students 
in the 70's were on a vocational track most of the time at a 
typical high school.
    Mr. Fallon. Wow. My time has expired, but thank you very 
much. I mean, I could literally sit up here and ask you all 
questions for the entire day. We would get some beers and we 
would just chat, and we would get learned and we would get 
smarter.
    The Chair now recognizes Ms. Stansbury for her 5 minutes of 
questions.
    Ms. Stansbury. All right. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. 
And welcome to all of our witnesses today.
    I am actually very excited to be talking about 
apprenticeships and trades education because I am a former 
tradesperson. I actually grew up in a landscaping family, so I 
grew up with blisters on my hands, digging ditches and laying 
irrigation pipe. And, like you, Mr. Ewing, I grew up with a 
father figure in my life who taught me the blessings of a long 
day's work and getting dirty and coming home and feeling proud 
of the work that you did.
    I am also a former trades student. Twenty-one years ago, I 
went to the Albuquerque Technical Vocational Institute, which 
has since rebranded itself as the Central New Mexico Community 
College, which I think is part of the discussion here today. 
But I am excited to talk about these issues.
    I grew up in a trades family, as I just mentioned. Not only 
did my sister's dad help raise me in the landscaping business, 
my mother who is a seamstress was also an operating engineer. 
She worked on heavy equipment at a power plant, and my dad was 
a boilermaker. He was a welder and a diesel mechanic. And so, I 
grew up with a really strong background and appreciation for a 
hard day's work.
    And I also really appreciate the importance of trades 
education, because it is not only the opportunity for making an 
honest living doing something that feels very satisfying, as we 
have been talking today, it is really crucial to our economy.
    Right now, in New Mexico we have more jobs than people, and 
I think some of the discussion has really pointed to that. And 
that is across every sector. That is healthcare. That is our 
trades, our building trades. That is, you know, commercial, 
retail, you name it. There truly is more jobs than there are 
humans.
    And I think that part of the challenge that we face is to 
figure out how to incentivize more of our young people to go 
into the specific areas that are matched with where our economy 
can grow. And so, I think that is where you all in particular 
play a special role.
    So, one of the things that New Mexico has done--and I think 
this goes along with some of the comments that were made about 
other countries--is that we made college free for all. 
Literally, if you are a resident of the state of New Mexico, 
you can now go and attend the Central New Mexico Community 
College and get a trades certificate. You can do an 
apprenticeship program, you can get a 2-year degree, a 4-year 
degree, and it is completely subsidized by the state. When I 
went to TVI 21 years ago, it was $30 a semester. It is now 
free.
    And what we have seen as a result of putting that state 
policy into practice that was championed by our state 
legislature and our Governor is that we are one of the only 
states in the United States where college and 2-year and trade 
school enrollment is going up across every institution in the 
state.
    So, it is not only good for education and good for our 
communities, it is also good for our institutions of higher 
education and training as well. And we have some of the finest 
in the country, as I know some of you come from.
    We have also been taking advantage of many of the huge 
incentive packages that have come our way because of the work 
that this body did in partnership with the President last 
Congress.
    So, you know, last Congress we passed the CHIPS and Science 
Act, which unlocked billions of dollars in investments in 
domestic manufacturing. New Mexico right now is massively 
expanding microchip manufacturing through Intel. We have a huge 
wind and solar manufacturing enterprise that is just booming 
right now in our state because of the Inflation Reduction Act 
and the incentives in that. And because of the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law that we passed last Congress, we have more 
construction projects that are shovel ready than we can find 
construction workers to actually do that work.
    So, we are really investing in the fundamentals to 
transform our economy. But the problem is, is that we do not 
have enough trained workers and folks who really want to work 
in these industries. And so, you know, I am excited to hear 
about some of the programs here today.
    And, Chancellor Gladney, I was particularly interested--you 
know, New Mexico also has a severe healthcare worker shortage. 
And the apprenticeship program that you talked about at 
Washington University, tell us, how does WashU finance that? 
How did you create it and afford to bring these apprenticeships 
into the college?
    Ms. Gladney. Thank you for the question. We actually rely 
on funding that is connected to our community partners. So, for 
example, our St. Louis County Workforce Development Office 
receives funding. We connect with a number of different 
organizations within the community, and through their support 
we are able to allow it to be free of cost for our 
participants.
    Ms. Stansbury. That is amazing. And I think these kinds of 
public-private partnerships are also some of the things that we 
really have to be exploring, since it is not just the 
healthcare industry, but name an industry, biotech. You know, 
in New Mexico we have a huge aerospace industry. There is a lot 
of opportunity there to really partner.
    But I think there is another element--and we were just 
going to this talking about getting young people interested. 
You know, a lot of the young people in my life, the teenagers 
in my life, they want to be video gamers and work in the 
creative arts, which is wonderful as well, but how do we get 
more of our young people interested in those career paths that 
we need to match with industry.
    And so, Dr. Sacks, I was compelled by some of the comments 
that you made about aligning local needs with the workforce 
demand and creating pipeline programs. And so, I know we are 
low on time here, but with your permission, Mr. Chairman, Dr. 
Sacks, how do you do that in a practical way?
    Ms. Sacks. Thank you very much. It is really looking at our 
local labor market demands and figuring out how do we fill the 
jobs that exist in the community. West Virginia is small enough 
that many company CEOs talk to me on a regular basis and are 
very explicit about what it is that they need. I think New 
Mexico shares that with us, that it would not be uncommon for 
you to be able to talk to the CEO of the largest employer in 
the state. So that is a huge advantage for us in West Virginia, 
to be able to sit down and have coffee with the person who is 
hiring the most healthcare workers who can really say, gosh, we 
need nurses. And all of your states need nurses.
    And so, it is not particularly unique to West Virginia, but 
what is unique for us is that I can look at the Bureau of Labor 
Statistics and see what the labor market demand is, but then I 
can also have those relationships and have those conversations 
where now the CEO of the hospital knows that my students could 
drop out of school because they get a flat tire. And so, we can 
start brainstorming, how do we fix that, how do we make sure 
your needs are being met and we have people who get trained up 
and can be in your workforce.
    And I think that is how we came up with the Aspiring Nurse 
Program that now the hospital system is paying people to go to 
school. We share some of the state investment in higher 
education, but what we found is that students still need access 
to things like childcare. And so rather than wait for the TANF 
program to be able to provide childcare the way that students 
need it or the things that they need--some of that bureaucracy 
is hard, and keeping students eligible is hard. And so, rather 
than fight that system, it is much simpler to find a local 
employer who is willing to step up to the plate and say, we 
need nurses so badly that we are willing to invest in these 
students.
    Ms. Stansbury. Thank you.
    And I think, Mr. Chairman, it is fair to say that not only 
do we need to be investing in our trades and apprenticeship 
programs, there is no telling where your life path can go. You 
could end up a nurse. You could end up in construction. You 
could end up as a Congressperson.
    Mr. Fallon. I am learning lots of new things about our 
colleagues. This is wonderful.
    The Chair now recognizes my good friend, Mr. Fry, from 
South Carolina.
    Mr. Fry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our 
witnesses for being here.
    You know, I graduated high school 20 years ago, and it is 
remarkable to see in that time that the American economy has 
really undergone quite a lot of changes in the workforce. And 
so, while I am encouraged by the technological advances that we 
have, our workforce is still aging. We still do not have enough 
skilled workers. There are labor shortages that are felt across 
the country.
    I am proud to say that in my home state, when I was in the 
legislature, we were really--the Governor and the legislature 
were really in sync at making sure that our technical schools 
were working with K-12, that they were working with local 
industries, that they were working with businesses to find 
ways, as Dr. Sacks talked about, to create a pipeline where 
people could learn a trade, have an apprenticeship, and develop 
a skill.
    I think by providing incentives like these with the 
apprenticeship tax credit and establishing programs such as 
Apprenticeship Carolina, we have lowered those barriers so that 
people that I grew up with have an opportunity to go to school 
and learn something.
    In my district, Florence-Darlington Technical College 
provides opportunities for high school students to work toward 
a nursing degree as a high school student, as a youth 
apprentice before they ever graduate. Since last year, over 20 
companies in Horry County have created 46 unique apprenticeship 
programs to address specific gaps in the marketplace in the 
labor market.
    By investing in these apprenticeships, individuals can 
receive valuable training without the burden of student loans. 
Oftentimes it is free to go. And if it is not free, it is very 
inexpensive to go to school. Employers can find that skilled 
talent ready to meet those workforce challenges. It is a win-
win.
    Dr. Sacks, you were just talking about the Aspiring Nursing 
Program, so I want to go back to that. What are the funding 
mechanisms available for students that participate in that 
program?
    Ms. Sacks. You bet. So, students who participate in any 
program at the community college have the opportunity to take 
advantage of Federal programs that exist. So that includes the 
Federal Pell grant, Federal loans. Then we have a number of 
grants that are available within the state of West Virginia. 
West Virginia has created a program that is called West 
Virginia Invests. It created free community college for a 
number of specific programs that meet local workforce demands, 
so the State Department of Commerce has selected which programs 
are eligible for that free tuition. So, it is no cost to the 
student.
    Then students also have a lot of private support that comes 
in. So, the Aspiring Nurse Program means that the big hospital 
system in the state, for example, is stepping in and paying 
students to be students. They can use those dollars on whatever 
it is that they want.
    For the students who are part of the charter school 
experience, the way that largely gets paid for is the state 
charter allocation. So, they--it is a public charter school, 
and students come with an allocation, and that allocation pays 
their tuition and for books and fees and whatever it is that 
they need at the institution. So, it is a slightly different 
funding stream than what we have seen with the more traditional 
age college students.
    Mr. Fry. In that same vein, Doctor, do you think--in what 
ways could states remodel their funding structures to better 
accommodate those pre-apprenticeships or stackable 
apprenticeships?
    Ms. Sacks. I mean, it really starts with what their 
employers want. It should be the foundation of their state WIOA 
plan. Unfortunately, many of those state plans are grounded in 
Federal compliance instead of really thinking about how to meet 
local labor market demands.
    Mr. Fry. You also said that the earning potential for 
students is contingent on the relevance of the skills learned 
and the demand for such labor in the local market. How are 
students supported in their job hunt particularly in geographic 
areas experiencing lower demand for skilled labor?
    Ms. Sacks. That is a great question. So, we actually have 
closed programs where there is not a demand for those skilled 
laborers, but the ones that we really focus on are programs 
where we have so many employers jumping up and down, saying, we 
need manufacturing technicians. There are several manufacturers 
in our area who will take whoever we produce. I cannot create 
enough medical laboratory technicians. And so those are high-
wage jobs.
    I think the other thing that is really important is that 
colleges should help students make choices so that they--many 
of my students do not know what a medical laboratory technician 
is. Many people in this room might not know what that is. And 
so helping students understand that and understand that this is 
a job where you are going to make $60,000 a year is really 
different from getting them involved in a job that is going to 
make $30,000 a year where they are sort of equally 
knowledgeable or interested in either one of them, that we 
really want to set our up students up for success, and looking 
at those labor market outcomes makes a really big difference.
    Mr. Fry. Great.
    Ms. Valdez, real quick, what steps are Texas taking to 
improve its outcomes-based approach for students?
    Ms. Valdez. On the high school side, Texas in 2019 created 
something called the College, Career, and Military Readiness 
Bonus, which allowed districts to get a bonus for students who 
achieved above a certain score on a standard test--it was a 
college board test--and enrolled in college or scored the 
same--above the same threshold and got an industry-based 
credential or certificate. And then there was also a military 
piece of that where schools would get a bonus for military 
enlistment.
    The program has had some success. There are some issues 
with the industry certification list. Employers often feel that 
some of those certifications are not aligned with their actual 
workforce needs, and so there could be some room for 
improvement on that.
    On the postsecondary side, we see an enormous, I think, 
national model that we could look at. It is called the Texas 
State Technical College System. And the reason the system works 
is because it is paid based on the wage outcomes of students. 
It is not--there is no guesswork or expert opinion on what we 
think we are going to need in 5 years and hope for the best. It 
is actually grounded in that data. And so, as a result, they 
are laser-focused on the needs of the employers and their 
communities.
    Mr. Fry. Thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you.
    The Chair now recognizes our host, Ms. Norton.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate this 
hearing.
    Throughout my service in Congress, I have fought to make 
certain my constituents can access the opportunities they need 
to build the futures they want. That means access to higher 
education without fear of crippling debt. That can also mean 
access to apprenticeships that teach them the skills and 
craftsmanship needed to earn well-paid careers.
    Apprenticeships provide on-the-job learning and experiences 
that prepare students for well-paying careers. Apprenticeships 
are great options for many early career individuals or mid-
career people seeking a change.
    Despite the benefits of a quality apprenticeship, however, 
individuals with bachelor's degrees still typically outearn 
people who do not have a bachelor's degree. Bachelor's degrees, 
regardless of major or minor, seem to open doors to career 
opportunities still inaccessible through apprenticeships.
    The problem is that too many of my constituents and too 
many people around the Nation do not really have a real choice 
to pursue a bachelor's degree. They do not have a counselor or 
role model who can help them navigate the college application 
process. They cannot afford to take on student debt or take 
time away from full-time work while supporting a family.
    To be clear, not everyone needs to go to a 4-year college, 
but everyone should have the opportunity to make the 
educational choices best suited to help them achieve their 
desired careers. Congress must attack inequities from all 
angles, including expanding need-based grants.
    So, Dr. Sacks, how can starting college at a 2-year 
community college and then transferring to a 4-year program 
lower tuition costs and improve access to undergraduate 
degrees?
    Ms. Sacks. Thank you. One of the pillars of community 
colleges is to provide transfer opportunities----
    Ms. Norton. Is your microphone on?
    Ms. Sacks. Yes, ma'am.
    Ms. Norton. OK.
    Ms. Sacks. One of the things that community colleges work 
on is providing transfer opportunities to students, so going 
from a 2-year degree to a 4-year degree. The students who 
transfer the most seamlessly know what it is they are 
transferring for. So, if you come in as a community college 
student and complete an associate's degree in a general field, 
you do not have those same labor market returns that you are 
talking about.
    And then the students who go on and do bachelor's degrees 
where they still do not have a clear path or a clear program of 
study, we are missing those labor market returns. The best 
returns we see are in great programs, engineering programs, 
math programs, things that we know lead to jobs that exist in 
our communities.
    So, I think some of the career guidance that you are asking 
about is to help students to transfer but to help them to 
transfer with a purpose so that they are thinking about 
employment. They are not transferring just so that they can 
check a box and complete a bachelor's degree. If they are 
transferring, they are transferring because they recognize that 
there is a job that they want that is requiring that bachelor's 
degree for entry in the labor market.
    Ms. Norton. Ms. Gladney, does completion of Washington 
University medical assistant apprenticeship program open doors 
for students who choose to continue their educations and even 
seek a 4-year degree?
    Ms. Gladney. Absolutely. Thank you for that question. It 
does. As a full-time employee of Washington University, after a 
year of full-time employment, all individuals, including our 
apprenticeship participants, are able to take advantage of our 
tuition assistance plan which pays for 100 percent for evening 
undergraduate course work, 50 percent for graduate level 
evening course work. And as well, even specific to our 
apprentices, we have partnered with our campus institution of 
Goldfarb School of Nursing on the School of Medicine campus to 
allow them for them to even pursue a BSN.
    So, we absolutely encourage them, actually, to continue if 
they choose to by utilizing that benefit that they have just 
simply by being an employee of the university.
    Ms. Norton. Dr. Sacks, you have worked on programs that 
help students transfer credits from community colleges to 4-
year programs. Are there specific policies or measures that 
help students more easily move from community college to 
bachelor's degree programs?
    Ms. Sacks. Yes, ma'am, there are policies that seem to 
smooth transfer. There are some states that have been very 
intentional about state transfer policies, and you see better 
outcomes for students in those states where it is much simpler 
to move from a community college to a 4-year institution 
because courses are commonly numbered, for example. It makes it 
much simpler just in process if I sit down with the registrar 
at one institution and another, if everybody agrees that this 
is what English 100 is, that becomes just administratively 
simpler. And many states have mandated policies like those.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you.
    The Chair now recognizes our friend from Ohio, Ms. Brown.
    Ms. Brown. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Apprenticeships provide opportunities for our next 
generation of workers with hands-on experience they need to 
compete for high-skilled jobs. I have and will continue to be a 
steadfast advocate of nontraditional educational paths. In 
fact, my own educational journey has been nontraditional, so I 
know firsthand the challenges traditional educational journeys 
can pose as well as the benefits of alternative learning 
opportunities. Apprenticeships are also an important avenue of 
transition from minimum wage jobs to high-paying careers of the 
21st century economy.
    The Biden-Harris Administration and House Democrats have 
worked hard to create tens of thousands of new high-paying, 
good-quality jobs by way of legislation like the CHIPS and 
Science Act. Now these job openings need well-trained workers 
to fill these climate-friendly high-tech positions.
    So, Ms. Gladney, how are apprenticeships a critical tool in 
preparing our workforce for the modern economy? And how are the 
Biden-Harris Administration and congressional Democrats leading 
the way on supporting apprenticeship programs through 
legislation like the CHIPS and Science Act, the Inflation 
Reduction Act, and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law?
    Ms. Gladney. Thank you for the question. I feel like 
apprenticeships are vital. There are many ways and many doors 
that it allows individuals who may not feel like they actually 
can have access to, it gives them that pathway. It gives them 
that opportunity, exposure to many different forums.
    I feel like, as an example for the medical assistant 
program, there are so many needs that we have all discussed 
here today from different statistics all across the country and 
partnering with employers in your specific community to talk 
with them about. Ours is a simple model. You are a full-time 
employee, benefits-eligible employee from day one. You are 
learning and working at the same time. There is nothing that 
stops, you know, others from replicating that in kind, which 
helps from a number of different perspectives.
    So, it does not negate the fact that there are maybe 
different individuals who want to pursue their education 
further. And, again, from our--as our model demonstrates, 
because they are full-time employees, they are able to do so at 
whatever point they choose to, whether it is still in the 
healthcare profession or in any other career path if they 
choose to.
    Ms. Brown. Thank you for that.
    And, Ms. Gladney, what are some of the barriers that Black 
and Brown students face in the traditional education system, 
and how can apprenticeship programs help to bridge that gap?
    Ms. Gladney. So, I would want to refer to my esteemed 
colleagues on the admissions side to really talk from a student 
admission perspective. I can talk about the barriers, though, 
specifically related to employment.
    There are many barriers that individuals face, whether it 
is, and we have mentioned today, childcare, family care. Since 
the pandemic, we have larger units now that individuals are 
responsible for. And how do you find affordable assistance to 
really help?
    If there is transportation issues, for example, at the 
university we offer a metro transit pass free of charge for 
every employee as a way to get around the campus parking rates, 
as well as to help ensure that they have viable means of 
transportation to and from based on that system.
    So, I do feel like, from an employment perspective, there 
are a number of challenges that we cannot ignore, and that is 
why our program not only wants to help upskill individuals, 
help them receive that credentialing and that certification, 
but also with our connections to various partners in our 
community we are able to help address some of the things that 
hinder people from either accepting entrance into the program 
or continuing in the program.
    Ms. Brown. Thank you.
    And last, Ms. Gladney, how does Federal funding support 
apprenticeship opportunities, and how might proposed Republican 
cuts to this funding affect our economic future?
    Ms. Gladney. Our program would not exist, in my opinion, 
without the benefits that we are able to receive from the 
various partners that we connect with in our community. We do 
not, as of yet, receive specific funding, but it is through 
those different organizations that we are able to host. It is 
helping us even to move forward with expanding our model to 
include other, you know, job titles that are equally as 
critical to our infrastructure and our mission. So, you know, 
Basic Research Laboratory is a new program, apprenticeship 
program that we are launching, clinical research professional, 
as well as others.
    And it would be detrimental, in my opinion, if that funding 
is not available for us to continue to expand. The labor 
market, you know, dictates the needs, and we have seen this as 
a wonderful pipeline where we can help both not only our 
institution but the community.
    Ms. Brown. Thank you for that.
    And I see my time has expired. So, with that, I will yield 
back.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you very much.
    Well, I have got good news. If you want to ask a few more 
questions, we are going to do a quick second round.
    So, I recognize myself for an additional 5 minutes.
    Mr. Ewing, how many Pittsburg State graduates have you 
hired since learning about the school?
    Mr. Ewing. Nine.
    Mr. Fallon. And how many of them are still with you?
    Mr. Ewing. Three.
    Mr. Fallon. Three of them. Where did the other six go?
    Mr. Ewing. Well, different--we had two that changed 
industries. One of them decided to be a firefighter. I mean, 
they were young, and so they just decided they did not want to 
stay in the industry. We had one that wanted to work in a 
smaller environment, a smaller shop. There is a lot of 
woodshops in our country that are 4 to 12 people, and he wanted 
that more custom environment. Ours is more automated.
    Mr. Fallon. Why do you think Pittsburg State has so few 
wood tech students?
    Mr. Ewing. There is just no pipeline. There is no pipelines 
to students. They are doing everything they can. And I think 
there is 13 states that they offer in-state tuition to just to 
try to get the students there. But that is why we started 
working with local high schools--or the local school districts 
to try to get students there.
    The other issue is that, you know, most students go back 
home. My daughter just got married 2 weeks ago, and she moved 
to Arkansas away from us. And my wife and I already talked 
about how do we get her back home.
    So, I think that what we are doing is, with that 
information, we are trying to get local students to go up to 
Pitt State, and then there is more of a chance that they could 
come back and they will be with their families.
    Mr. Fallon. Talk to me about the financial assistance. Does 
your company offer any kind of incentive or does Pittsburg 
State?
    Mr. Ewing. What Advanced Fixtures does is that we hire at 
least three interns a summer. It is hard. It is hard to get 
them because they are sought after. And then if we hire an 
intern, we will offer a little bit of a small stipend, I guess, 
because hopefully if we--we like to get them back, so we help a 
little bit there. I think there are some other programs, 
though. The WMIA scholarships, Woodworking Machinery Industry 
Association, 9 of the 17 applicants in the country went to Pitt 
State. There were only 17.
    Mr. Fallon. Wow. Wow.
    Dr. Sacks, BridgeValley Community and Technical College in 
your state continues to be a leader in STEM education and 
training for the area and has numerous success stories, 
especially within its nursing program. Can you explain how you 
identify needs within the community and tailored programs that 
are offered that meet those needs?
    Ms. Sacks. Certainly. A lot of this is employer driven, 
that we talk to our employers regularly. All of our programs 
have employers who are very involved. Many of our employers 
provide employees who are teaching as adjuncts in our programs. 
So, there is very tight synergy there. And when we are 
identifying programs and need in the community, we are looking 
at labor market data, and we are looking at outcomes for 
students.
    We are particularly proud of our outcomes in things like 
advanced manufacturing technology where the average wage for 
students who graduate from that program is $88,000. That is a 
great wage.
    Mr. Fallon. Oh. So, how old are these folks when they----
    Ms. Sacks. Between 18 and 40.
    Mr. Fallon. So, they are all over the gamut for young 
adults, but they hit the job market making almost $90,000?
    Ms. Sacks. They do. And that is a great wage, and it is 
something we are really proud of. And so, it is been one of 
those program areas where we are, in particular, trying to 
target more women because we see men gravitate toward some of 
those manufacturing fields, and so really identify that as an 
opportunity of growth for us, and so it has been something we 
are working on. But we identify that as an opportunity of 
growth by looking at our data that we can see that--how do we 
get more men into nursing? Well, we know that that is an area 
that we need to target because we have looked at who is 
enrolled in our nursing program, and we see stark differences 
that largely women enroll in our nursing program. And so, we 
have made some incredible strides and are now trying to do the 
same thing in manufacturing.
    Mr. Fallon. And real quick with the remaining time we have, 
what kind of challenges are you facing when you are trying to 
innovate and have new programs for in-demand fields?
    Ms. Sacks. We try very hard to start with the employer and 
start with the job in mind. That makes a huge difference for 
making sure our students become employed. And one of the things 
we have started finding with our employers is, as they talk 
about getting women into manufacturing, for example, some of 
the shifts that they ask students to work or their employees to 
work are not conducive for single moms. A lot of our students 
are single moms. And so, it is not changing the college 
environment as much as it is changing the workforce environment 
so that it becomes more responsive to what employees actually 
want in their workplace.
    Mr. Fallon. Thank you.
    My time is up, and I am going to recognize Ms. Stansbury of 
New Mexico.
    Ms. Stansbury. All right. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I think with my remaining time I would like to do a 
lightning round. I think this is actually one of the more 
interesting hearings we have had in this Committee in terms of 
bringing us ideas that are actionable and that we can actually 
help share ideas and possibly work on legislation or budget 
initiatives.
    So, I wonder if we could just go down the line and maybe 
taking a minute each, starting with our chancellor here on the 
end, Ms. Gladney, what recommendations do you have for us in 
Congress in terms of supporting institutions like yours, in 
terms of programs, funding, things we can do, using our bully 
pulpit to lift up programs, to support you as community 
partners?
    Whatever those things look like, I would love to hear from 
each of you. So, if you do not mind, we will start there.
    Ms. Gladney. Thank you for the question. Increasing the 
funding and diversifying the areas so that we as an employer 
are able to use them. Like I said, the program would not even 
exist today if--the need was there, of course, but it would not 
exist if we did not have those community partners with the 
grant funding from the Federal, state, and local levels. So 
certainly, to increase that to allow us that flexibility to 
continue to offer that, in addition to other opportunities.
    Ms. Stansbury. Thank you.
    Mr. Ewing.
    Mr. Ewing. What I would say is that incentivize local 
school districts to focus more on industrial arts, more like 
they did years ago. I think that creates an opportunity and 
gives students a chance to get into a field that they have a 
natural gift for. And then I would also say that then work 
locally based on need in that area to support colleges, to 
create programs so those students could succeed.
    Ms. Stansbury. Absolutely. I still remember my middle 
school shop teacher who had a huge impact on my life.
    Dr. Sacks.
    Ms. Sacks. I would ask Congress to block grant as many 
things as you can to states. Let us decide how we want to 
address our workforce needs. The less bureaucracy truly the 
better. WIOA pays for short-term programs right now. It 
provides ITAs to learners, but it needs--right now what you 
hear a lot of is, gosh, we need short-term Pell. That would 
really help students who want to be in short-term programs. ITA 
has paid for what essentially short-term Pell would be, but it 
is a lot more burdensome. So, as you think about how do you get 
this money to a person who needs money to pay for training, it 
is much harder to negotiate that work for a system than it is 
to fill out a FAFSA.
    And so, recognizing that the end users of all of these 
things that Congress has created are negotiating SNAP and TANF 
and Pell and Department of Labor and USDA, and trying to figure 
out all of the rules for various Federal programs can be really 
hard. I mean, it is 20 years in, and I am not an expert about 
all of them. And I think my colleagues would share that with 
me, that the more simplicity we can get in our states, truly 
the easier to serve the people who we are trying to serve.
    Ms. Stansbury. Absolutely.
    Ms. Valdez.
    Ms. Valdez. Thank you for the question. I would echo much 
of what Dr. Sacks has said here. A couple of practical examples 
of what she is talking about. When looking at WIOA, it is 
important to note that those funds go to workforce regions or 
areas in states. That can complicate delivery of services 
significantly. When we think about the needs that folks have 
when they are looking to reskill and upskill, it is often 
things like childcare, right. It is things that are kind of in 
the package of things covered, but maybe people have to take 
more than one stop to find those things, and that is not the 
intent of that legislation. And so, I would echo and say 
simplify.
    We can look at what Utah has done. They have a waiver, so 
they have a single statewide delivery service, and because of 
that, they are able to allocate funds where they are needed. 
They have a one-stop model for these services. That is, I 
think, an area where there could be a lot of bipartisan 
consensus, because it does reduce waste, but it also gets the 
end--the end user is in mind, as you said, and it gets the 
funds to those people and helps them get off of the social 
services programs that we know might bog them down. So----
    Ms. Stansbury. We will definitely look at that.
    Dr. Winfree.
    Mr. Winfree. Thanks so much for the question. One of the 
themes that has, I think, you know, shined in all of our 
comments today is that educational innovation works. The 
problem is that it is not the standard. These are outliers. And 
so, the question for us is, how do we start to pull those 
outliers into the standard?
    One of our just general challenges that we have with 
secondary education right now in the United States is, as that 
college wage premium has increased since the 1970's, as 
Representative Norton highlighted earlier, high schools have 
shifted from technical and vocational education to preparing 
everybody for a 4-year degree, whether or not that makes sense 
for them, whether or not that is what they want to do. Everyone 
is learning how to take the SATs, right, regardless of where 
they are.
    And so, what we should be doing is thinking about how to 
take these innovative models that are being tried in the 
states, that are being tried in other countries, and make that 
the standard for what we are doing in the United States. And to 
come back to my testimony, one of the key pieces of that is 
going to involve reducing the stigma of vocational education 
and apprenticeships, right. It should not just be an outlier, 
but this is the path to a good job that can support your family 
for your entire career.
    So, thanks so much for the great question. And, I mean, I 
am personally inspired by this panel. Thanks so much.
    Ms. Stansbury. Absolutely. Well, me as well.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Fallon. Well, I want to thank everybody for coming, and 
I want to thank my colleagues as well.
    In closing, what you just said, Dr. Winfree, about not 
everyone is going to get a 4-year degree, and some paths differ 
and success comes in, and I think, I always thought, in all 
shapes, sizes, and shades, but there is also different paths to 
success as well. And we can go all day long on the anecdotes 
that I am sure you know and I know of people that--well, heck, 
I have got a Member of Congress sitting right next to me that 
started in the trades. And, again, as I admitted, I took sewing 
class in seventh grade, you know, and here I am as well.
    But I want to thank Mr. Ewing for coming because I think 
you are a case in point to, you had a family that loved you. 
They taught you at an early age how to do some handy things, 
and you turned that into a wildly successful company, and you 
have American manufacturing jobs, which I love. And I used to, 
as you know, represent Farmersville when I was in the Texas 
senate. And, I mean, you are a backbone of that town.
    And I just want to say I think we all want to see more 
examples of that, and I think it is incumbent upon state 
legislators and Members of Congress to talk to the 
stakeholders--that is why I really wanted you to come and asked 
you--and educators and experts in the field that are, as we 
would say from my original state of Massachusetts, wicked 
smart, you know, and I wanted to thank you for coming.
    But we also have to be very careful, when we do spend 
Federal money, that we have measures in place, that we are not 
just spending. Spending--sometimes it happens up here, people 
say, well, we funded this. Yes, but did it do anything? Did it 
have an impact? I mean, we could spend all day long. We just 
want to make sure that money is well spent so we can see that 
taxpayer money getting used. And there certainly--when I was in 
the state legislature talked about funding, but making sure we 
have those measures in place. Because a Texas miracle will 
grind to an immediate halt when you look at the average ages of 
some of these folks that are skilled, skilled laborers. They 
are getting older and older. That median age is rising, and 
that scares me.
    And also, across the country, but particularly in Texas, 
the demographics of the state is changing as well. And we need 
to make sure that everybody feels--the thing that gets me the 
most is I do not want people, particularly young men and women, 
to think that they cannot succeed because America is a country 
where, you know, there is a thumb on the scale against them. 
And it is a very dangerous thing when we talk about that. 
Because when you are a young kid, if you do not think you are 
going to succeed, why bother trying because it is so much 
easier not to.
    I was a teenager once, and if not for a loving family, I do 
not know where I would be. And so, I just want to make sure 
that we can provide--maybe sometimes these very successful 
people preach what they practice in some sense.
    And also, we have got to change the culture. We really do. 
And every one of us has that job, and we need to venerate 
people that have the skill, because they are building our 
communities, and remove that stigma. But also, look at other 
states and look at and work with some think tanks and look at 
best practices, what are states doing, and hang out--you know, 
because you do not have to invent the wheel. You can invent the 
wheel and improve it a little bit, or, hey, I like your wheel. 
I am just going to replicate it.
    And what are other countries doing? I hear a codel coming 
into play here. But to really look at and mirror some of those 
successes. Germany, again, different culture, but in the German 
work ethic is that pride that, I work really hard, that kind of 
thing, although it took 45 minutes for my bags to get out of 
the airport, so I was a little disappointed in Germany. 
Finland, however, the bags beat us to the rack area.
    But anyhow--but there are some innovations. And then you 
talk about leveraging technology moving forward, my goodness, 
we are in an ever-changing world, and we just have to be ready 
for it.
    And I was really looking forward to this hearing. When me 
and my staff got together when we knew we were going to chair 
this Subcommittee, and it was one of the first things that we 
talked about, because it is something that is working toward 
solutions. On Oversight we fight a lot, back and forth. A 
spirited exchange of ideas can be very healthy. It can also be 
a little bit not all that productive. But this was one of those 
Committee hearings where I really wanted to have our--the 
better angels of our nature to come, and I think we largely saw 
that.
    So, I want to thank everyone again. And I know the 
witnesses came from a very long way. We had lots of things that 
typically do not go on in Congress. You do not typically elect 
a new Speaker in the middle of a Congress. But I have a couple 
of shop things I have got to take care of.
    I ask unanimous consent to submit these documents and 
statements into the record: Apprenticeships, Not College, Can 
Help Reduce Unemployment, by Paul Winfree and Rachel Greszler; 
Blanket Loan Forgiveness, Loan Subsidies, and Failed Job-
Training Programs Are Not the Answer to Worker Shortages and 
Inflation, by Rachel Greszler and John Schoof; Outcomes-Based 
Higher Education Funding: A Case Study from Texas, by Erin 
Davis Valdez and Jorge Borrego; and Innovation in 
Apprenticeships: More of the Same, by Mason M. Bishop; final 
report of the Task Force on Apprenticeship Expansion, May 10, 
2019; Statement for the Record by the Foundation for Research 
on Equal Opportunity.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    Mr. Fallon. In closing, again, I want to thank our 
panelists for coming and sharing your knowledge. It was 
fascinating. And, again, if we were not so darn busy today, I 
would ask you to do three, four more rounds.
    And with that and without objection, all Members will have 
5 legislative days within which to submit materials and to 
submit additional written questions for the witnesses which 
will be forwarded to the witnesses for their responses.
    If there is no further business, without objection, the 
Subcommittee stands adjourned.
    Thank you very much.
    [Whereupon, at 6:14 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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