[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                COLOMBIA'S DESCENT TO SOCIALISM: ASSESSING 
                        GUSTAVO PETRO'S PRESIDENCY

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON WESTERN HEMISPHERE

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             July 27, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-43

                               __________

        Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
        
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                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                   MICHAEL T. MCCAUL, Texas, Chairman

CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey     	GREGORY MEEKS, New Yok, Ranking 
JOE WILSON, South Carolina               	Member
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania	 	BRAD SHERMAN, California
DARRELL ISSA, California		GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
ANN WAGNER, Missouri			WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
BRIAN MAST, Florida			DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
KEN BUCK, Colorado			AMI BERA, California
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee			JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
MARK E. GREEN, Tennessee		DINA TITUS, Nevada
ANDY BARR, Kentucky			TED LIEU, California
RONNY JACKSON, Texas			SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
YOUNG KIM, California			DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida		COLIN ALLRED, Texas
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan			ANDY KIM, New Jersey
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN-RADEWAGEN,   	SARA JACOBS, California
  American Samoa			KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
FRENCH HILL, Arkansas			SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK, 
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio			 	Florida	
JIM BAIRD, Indiana			GREG STANTON, Arizona
MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida			MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
THOMAS KEAN, JR., New Jersey		JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
MICHAEL LAWLER, New York		JONATHAN JACOBS, Illinois
CORY MILLS, Florida			SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
RICH MCCORMICK, Georgia			JIM COSTA, California
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas			JASON CROW, Colorado
JOHN JAMES, Michigan			BRAD SCHNEIDER. Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas      

                    Brendan Shields, Staff Director
                    Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director
                                 ------                                

                   Subcommittee on Western Hemisphere

                     MARIA SALAZAR, Florida, Chair
KEN BUCK, Colorado                   JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas, Ranking 
MARK GREEN, Tennessee                    Member
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan		     GREG STANTON, Arizona
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio		     JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
KEITH SELF, Texas		     SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California                                     
                                     
                 Ana Quintana,  Staff Director
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
                               WITNESSES

Wells, Mark, Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of Western 
  Hemisphere Affairs, U.S. Department of State...................     7
Natiello, Peter, Senior Deputy Assistant Administrator, Bureau 
  for Latin America and the Caribbean, U.S. Agency for 
  International Development......................................    15

                                APPENDIX

Hearing Notice...................................................    33
Hearing Minutes..................................................    35
Hearing Attendance...............................................    36

           STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM RANKING MEMBER MEEKS

Statement for the record from Ranking Member Meeks...............    37

           STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM CONGRESSMAN MCGOVERN

Statement for the record from Congressman McGovern...............    40

            RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

Responses to questions submitted for the record..................    43

 
 COLOMBIA'S DESCENT TO SOCIALISM: ASSESSING GUSTAVO PETRO'S PRESIDENCY

                        Thursday, July 27, 2023

                          House of Representatives,
            Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere,
                      Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:20 p.m., in 
room 210, House Visitor Center, Hon. Maria Elvira Salazar 
(chair of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Ms. Salazar. The Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere 
will come to order.
    The purpose of this hearing is to examine the current 
Administration in Colombia and the impacts of its policies on 
the bilateral relationship.
    Now I recognize myself for an opening statement, and thank 
you to the witnesses for being here and taking time to present 
your statements.
    Socialism is the creed of evil and has descended on 
Colombia, one of the crown jewels of Latin America. The White 
House should fear this corrupt ideology spreading into our 
hemisphere and protect Latin America's oldest democracy, 
Colombia.
    It's our duty as Americans to rescue other countries from 
this nefarious path. But instead, unfortunately, the president 
of the country, Presidente Gustavo Petro, got a congratulatory 
call from President Biden 36 hours into his presidency, an 
honor that Ecuador's conservative president, Guillermo Lasso, 
had to wait 13 months to receive from the White House.
    On top of that, President Petro was invited to come to the 
Oval Office, a gesture extended to very few other Latin 
American presidents, and is still receiving abundant political 
favors. For example, the United States at this hour is not 
going to be monitoring Colombian coca crops anymore.
    I'm going to repeat it. The United States is not going to 
be monitoring Colombian coca crops anymore. For me, that's 
outrageous. The coca harvest has already grown to over 300,000 
hectares, up from 200,000 a few years ago.
    At this hour Colombia is the source of 97 percent of 
cocaine in the United States and its production capacity has 
now passed 1,000 metric tons. On top of that, President Petro 
has adopted a laissez-faire approach in the war against this 
lethal drug inside Colombia.
    He is hoping that Colombia farmers will destroy their crops 
voluntarily, reinstating a policy that failed 5 years ago. 
Petro himself used the world stage of the United Nations to 
argue that oil is more dangerous than cocaine. Maybe that's why 
he is hitting the Colombian oil industry harder than he is 
hitting the drug cartels.
    But, unfortunately, the United States is applauding his 
behavior because when Secretary of State Blinken met with 
President Petro he said he strongly supports the approach Petro 
is taking to counter narcotics.
    My understanding was that the United States is in the 
business of fighting drug trafficking nor abiding it. Once 
again at this hour Colombia is sinking into the dark days of 
the 1980's when it was infamous for drugs and violence to the 
chagrin of respectable Colombians, many of them living in my 
district, Florida 27.
    On the political front, President Petro displayed his poor 
judgment in Belgium when he said that he did not see a 
difference between siding with the United States or siding with 
Russia. Between the United States or Russia.
    Well, I do not think there is any doubt that Russia at this 
hour is a global pariah whose brutal war against Ukraine has 
killed hundreds of thousands of people and has caused levels of 
destruction not seen in Europe since the Nazis. Closer to home 
Petro has embraced one of Russia's most important allies in the 
Western Hemisphere, Venezuela.
    When Petro--President Petro reopened their shared border 
dictator Nicolas Maduro and thief in chief Freddy Bernal were 
there to greet him. You may know Maduro but if you do not 
remember who Bernal is he was a close confidant to Hugo Chavez 
and the leader of the repressive apparatus against the 
Venezuelans. On top of that, Bernal is on the United States 
black list.
    Now, let's go to the environment. President Biden is 
aligned with Petro on a very dirty climate agenda and the 
question is where are the environmentalists. United States and 
Colombia produce some of the world's cleanest energy but both 
countries have halted their domestic production.
    We in the United States are buying oil from Venezuela whose 
refineries break all environmental regulations, resulting in 
the dirtiest oil produced on Earth, and I have not heard one 
single Biden official or supporter protesting this pro-
pollution policy.
    On the crime front, President Petro is negotiating with the 
two largest drug traffickers in Colombia. First, Clan del 
Golfo. Presence in 28 countries, has 4,000 members. They 
traffic 200 tons of cocaine a year and they're the number-one 
trafficker of men, women, and children through the jungles of 
Central America to the American border.
    No. 2, he's negotiating with a group called ELN, the 
Marxist guerrilla National Liberation Army. Five days ago the 
ELN sprayed
    [speaks in Spanish] Death to Maria Corina all over her 
offices in Venezuela. If you do not know who Maria Corina is, 
Maria Corina Machado is the top Presidential candidate against 
Maduro and the best hope for democracy in Venezuela.
    So when looking at Colombia a major course of correction is 
needed. Over the last 30 years Colombia has made incredible 
progress. The scourge of Pablo Escobar was removed. Plan 
Colombia, with our help, triumphed.
    Alvaro Uribe defeated the guerrillas and brought security 
back to the Colombians. A new era of prosperity, democracy, 
security swept over this critical country. But now it looks 
like that will be all erased and there's one man to blame, 
Presidente Gustavo Francisco Petro Urrego.
    For the sake of my Colombian brothers and sisters, this 
must not happen and we, the United States and the U.S. 
Congress, should help the good people of Colombia.
    So I just want to say a few words for those who may be 
watching in Colombia.
    [Speaks in Spanish.]
    Ms. Salazar. I yield back. The chair now recognizes the 
ranking member, the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Castro, for his 
opening statements.
    Mr. Castro. Thank you, Chairwoman, and good afternoon to 
everybody. Thank you to our witnesses for your testimony and 
for being here today. I want to specifically thank Mr. Wells 
and Mr. Natiello for joining us. It's good to see you both 
again.
    I appreciate the opportunity to hear from our distinguished 
witnesses and to discuss the challenges and opportunities 
facing our two countries.
    I deeply value the relationship between the United States 
and Colombia and between the people of our two nations. For 
years our deep ties with Colombia have enjoyed strong 
bipartisan support in the U.S. Congress and I hope that we can 
continue that tradition in pursuit of a relationship that is 
based on mutual respect for democracy, human rights, economic 
prosperity, and regional security.
    Colombia is in the midst of change. That much is 
undeniable. A year ago Colombia inaugurated President Gustavo 
Petro and Vice President Francia Marquez, Colombia's first 
Afro-Colombian executive, who were both elected on a platform 
of change and departure from the status quo.
    As allies and friends of the Colombian people, the United 
States needs to be responsive to what the Colombian people have 
clearly called for through the exercise of their democratic 
rights. It's not the role of the United States to handpick any 
nation's leaders and the Colombian people have spoken.
    To those who are concerned about change I would say this. 
The ties between the United States and Colombia run deep and I 
have faith in the democratic institutions of Colombia. Our 
relationship remains beneficial for both countries and our 
financial and security support is essential to address key 
regional issues.
    I'm going to lay out a few of the priorities as I see it 
for U.S.-Colombia ties and I hope to hear from the witnesses on 
these issues.
    The first is on the issue of peace and security. The 
Colombian people had great courage in negotiating the 2016 
Peace Accords with the FARC. The agreement was a significant 
step forward for peace after decades of conflict but much of 
the agreement remains unimplemented, particularly the ethnic 
chapter.
    I'm glad that President Petro has committed to fully 
implementing this agreement and the United States as Colombia's 
ally should support these efforts.
    Yet, it's also important to recognize that Colombia still 
faces conflict including from the ELN and other armed groups 
that impedes economic inclusion and security. The Colombian 
government has elevated efforts to negotiate a peace agreement 
with the ELN. I urge the Biden Administration to be open minded 
and provide technical support if requested.
    The second policy priority for the U.S.-Colombia 
relationship is cooperation to address shared challenges with 
forced migration. I want to start off by commending Colombia's 
decision to provide temporary protected status to almost 2 
million Venezuelans fleeing the economic collapse and political 
crisis in neighboring Venezuela.
    We need to remind ourselves it is countries like Colombia 
and Peru, Panama, Costa Rica, Mexico, and so many others that 
face the immediate and most direct impacts of forced migration. 
After the Los Angeles declaration on migration protection 
recognized that migration is a hemispheric challenge.
    As partners we need to support Colombia and its efforts to 
fully integrate those who have fled Venezuela and I'm glad that 
President Biden's budget request for Fiscal Year 2024 includes 
$33.7 million to assist Colombia with these efforts.
    Colombia is a country of 50 million people that has taken 
in nearly 3 million Venezuelans with open hearts. To underscore 
the scale of this, that would be like the United States taking 
in almost 20 million people, a number far beyond the half a 
million we have currently living in our country.
    As we recognize Colombia's actions I reiterate my call for 
the Biden Administration to pair their welcome efforts to 
support countries like Venezuela with open hearts of our own. I 
was incredibly disappointed by the Biden Administration's 
failure to redesignate temporary protected status for Honduras, 
El Salvador, and Nicaragua, efforts that would have brought 
relief to those who have been in the United States for decades.
    I continue to believe in the need for redesignations for 
these countries and for Guatemala and call on the 
Administration to revisit their decision.
    The last thing I want to mention is the opportunities for 
the United States and Colombia to work together to combat 
climate change and promote economic--inclusive economic 
prosperity.
    That includes collaborating on renewable energy, especially 
within the framework of the Inflation Reduction Act and 
expanding regional integration through the America's 
Partnership for Economic Prosperity. I had the opportunity to 
meet President Petro and his cabinet in May and I know that 
these issues are a priority for him in that they value 
Colombia's relationship with the United States.
    With that, Chairwoman, I yield back.
    Ms. Salazar. Thank you. Other members of the committee are 
reminded that opening statements may be submitted for the 
record and we are pleased to have a distinguished panel of 
witnesses from the State Department and the United States 
Agency for International Development, who lead on the United 
States effort toward Colombia, starting with Mr. Mark Wells is 
the deputy assistant secretary for the Bureau of Western 
Hemisphere Affairs at the Department of State. Welcome, sir.
    And we have Mr. Peter Natiello, who is the senior deputy 
assistant administrator for the Bureau for Latin America and 
the Caribbean at the United States Agency for International 
Development. Thank you for being here.
    Your full statements will be made part of the record and 
I'll ask each of you to keep your spoken remarks to 5 minutes 
in order to allow time for member questions.
    I now recognize Mr. Wells for his opening statement.

STATEMENT OF MARK WELLS, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY, BUREAU OF 
      WESTERN HEMISPHERE AFFAIRS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

    Mr. Wells. Chairwoman Salazar, Ranking Member Castro, 
distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the 
opportunity to discuss our current approach to Colombia, a 
historic ally in the region.
    As one of the oldest democracies and market-driven 
economies in Latin America, Colombia works closely with us to 
advance shared priorities in trade, security, migration, 
democracy, and climate as well as the full implementation of 
Colombia's 2016 Peace Accord.
    During their April 20 meeting at the White House President 
Biden and President Petro reaffirmed the strategic importance 
of the U.S.-Colombia partnership based on principles of 
friendship, mutual respect, cultural ties, and a shared 
commitment to democracy and human rights.
    The United States has proudly supported security, good 
governance, and rule of law for many years, which has 
contributed to Colombia's long-standing commitment to 
democracy.
    Our investments have paid dividends over the course of our 
partnership, enabling close cooperation under successive 
Colombian governments with differing political perspectives. 
The U.S. and Colombian people enjoy the benefits of a 
successful economic relationship built on the solid foundation 
of the U.S.-Colombia trade promotion agreement.
    Since the agreement took effect U.S. trade with Colombia is 
near an all-time high. We engage closely with the Colombian 
government in the context of the agreement to improve labor and 
environmental standards.
    The United States has been the strongest and most 
consistent contributor to the implementation of the 2016 Peace 
Accord, providing more than $1.5 billion in assistance since 
2017.
    We work closely with civil society, the private sector, and 
the Colombian government to prioritize the advancement of and 
equity of women, girls, Afro-Colombians, and indigenous people, 
all of whom have been disproportionately victimized by the 
conflict.
    The United States and Colombia coordinate closely to 
address irregular migration, to promote safe and humane 
migration management, and to support long-term migrant 
socioeconomic integration in Colombia.
    In April, President Biden and President Petro underscored 
our joint commitment to counter human smuggling in the Darien 
region on Colombia's border with Panama. Colombia hosts some 
2.5 million Venezuelans, the largest number of displaced 
Venezuelans in the region.
    In 2022, the United States programmed $104 million to 
Venezuelan migrants in Colombia. President Biden and President 
Petro committed to a comprehensive counter narcotics approach 
that includes interdiction, anti-money laundering, and rural 
economic development.
    We commend Colombia's efforts to expand land titling, which 
allows individuals in rural communities to own their own land, 
and pursue economic alternatives to illegal drug cultivation.
    At the same time, we remain concerned about record levels 
of coca and cocaine production as well as alarming trends in 
homicide and violence that serve to undermine democracy.
    We are expanding and intensifying bilateral cooperation in 
intelligence and interdiction to dismantle transnational 
criminal networks and to counter illicit activities that 
displace rural communities.
    Investing in Colombian institutions that fight corruption 
and improve security and justice like the attorney general's 
office, the court system, the Peace Accord transitional justice 
mechanisms, and the national police force is a strategic 
priority that will protect both our peoples' health, safety, 
the environment, the economy, and rule of law.
    As the second most biodiverse country in the world Colombia 
plays a vital role in addressing the climate crisis. The United 
States supports programs that advance environmental protection 
by countering the drivers of deforestation, supporting 
conservation of the Amazon, and promoting climate smart 
agricultural practices.
    In addition to our bilateral work, the United States and 
other democratic nations have a responsibility to stand up for 
democratic principles and protect the rules-based international 
order.
    Colombia and the United States share a vision for a 
peaceful return to democracy in Venezuela and work closely to 
strengthen inter-American institutions.
    In conclusion, the Biden-Harris Administration is committed 
to ensuring that the U.S.-Colombia relationship remains strong 
and productive for the benefit of U.S. citizens, the Colombian 
people, hemispheric stability, and the wider world.
    We have overcome many historic challenges together and we 
are confident that our partnership will continue to thrive for 
many generations to come.
    Once again, thank you for the opportunity to appear before 
you today. I welcome your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Wells follows:]

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]	
    
    Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Mr. Wells.
    And I recognize Mr. Natiello for his opening statement.

     STATEMENT OF PETER NATIELLO, SENIOR DEPUTY ASSISTANT 
ADMINISTRATOR, BUREAU FOR LATIN AMERICA AND THE CARIBBEAN, U.S. 
              AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT

    Mr. Natiello. Chairwoman Salazar, Ranking Member Castro, 
and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for 
the opportunity to testify today on USAID's long-standing 
partnership with Colombia.
    USAID' work in Colombia spans several decades, five U.S. 
Administrations and five Colombian presidencies. We partner 
with a broad range of Colombian stakeholders, democratically 
elected government certainly, Colombia's independent control 
organizations, its vibrant private sector, its active civil 
society, and marginalized communities.
    USAID supports Colombia's own efforts to invest in its 
historically marginalized and violence prone territories in the 
following ways: first, to strengthen State presence in those 
territories; second, to advance sustainable licit economic 
development in those regions; and third, to create a culture of 
citizen rights and responsibilities associated with democratic 
governance.
    We support implementation of the 2016 Peace Accord because 
it creates the conditions to achieve those objectives. USAID 
has been a long-standing partner in bringing greater State 
presence to Colombia's conflict prone regions home to illicit 
economic activities including narco trafficking, land grabbing, 
illegal mining, and illegal logging.
    With the U.S. Interagency we've supported successive 
Colombian governments to increase public investment in these 
regions, helping to improve schools, roads, health care, 
justice services, and protection of social leaders.
    The Peace Accord strengthens the conditions for developing 
the agricultural bounty of the Colombian countryside while 
conserving Colombia's rich biodiversity and expansive tropical 
forests.
    USAID's long-term commitment to these regions has enabled 
thousands of farmers to abandon coca production in favor of 
licit agricultural products like the country's renowned 
specialty coffees which Colombians are so rightfully proud of, 
and cacao, an important and growing sector thanks in part to 
USAID's long-term commitment to that sector.
    The private sector has been a key partner in these efforts. 
USAID has accomplished pioneering climate change mitigation and 
adaptation work with Colombia.
    Our work has helped generate $27 million to date in carbon 
credit sales for Afro-Colombian and indigenous communities 
along the impoverished and isolated Pacific coasts.
    USAID has been at Colombia's side for many years to ensure 
that conflict victims can be afforded the truth, justice, 
restitution, and commitments of non-repetition enshrined in the 
2016 Peace Accord.
    With the Truth Commission USAID has worked to compile and 
publicize testimoneys that have helped tens of thousands of 
victims understand what happened to them and to their loved 
ones. With that truth they can begin the long and arduous 
healing process.
    Additionally, we've helped the victims organizations to 
bring cases before the Special Jurisdiction for Peace, the 
Transitional Justice Court charged with holding all parties to 
the conflict accountable.
    Advancing the full social and economic inclusion of Afro-
Colombian and Indigenious Peoples is key to a stable and 
lasting peace and a steady focus of the United States' work in 
Colombia.
    USAID advocated for the participation of these groups and 
other historically marginalized Colombians in the peace process 
and advocated for inclusion of the Chapter on Ethnic 
Perspectives in the Peace Accord.
    I note Representative Meeks' presence here today and thank 
him for spearheading so many efforts on that front.
    We recognize that despite the signing of the Accord and the 
important advances in human rights over the past decade, 
attacks against Colombia's human rights and environmental 
defenders have risen in the years since the Accord's signing in 
2016.
    For this reason USAID continues working with Colombian 
partners to protect human rights leaders and environmental 
defenders, prevent violent attacks against them, and reduce 
impunity for these crimes. More must be done to address this 
violence and we're committed to ensuring it remains a top 
priority of our foreign assistance.
    In addition to the challenges of building peace in the 
country's marginalized regions, Colombia and the broader region 
are confronted with unprecedented migration challenges.
    Colombia is creating a model for effective migrant 
integration that holds lessons for this hemisphere and beyond.
    USAID has partnered with the government of Colombia as it 
implements generous Temporary Protective Status and 
regularization policies, which help Venezuelans fleeing the 
disastrous Maduro regime, and helping integrate Venezuelans 
into Colombian society deters them from having to make the 
dangerous journey through the Darien Gap.
    With the generous support from Congress USAID continues to 
assist Colombia in its efforts to register Venezuelan migrants 
and help them to integrate into Colombian communities.
    After more than five decades of war Colombia has taken 
important steps toward lasting peace, security, stability, and 
prosperity. The Colombian people still have much work to do and 
USAID is committed to accompanying them in pursuit of our 
common interests.
    And we're grateful for Congress' unwavering bipartisan 
support for the U.S.-Colombia relationship over the past two 
decades, which has made USAID's work to build an enduring 
partnership with the people of Colombia possible.
    I look forward to your questions. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Natiello follows:]

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]	
    
    Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Mr. Wells. I'm sorry. Thank you, 
Mr. Natiello, for your statement and I recognize myself now for 
5 minutes of questioning.
    I see that both of you did not mention some of the topics 
that we consider highly important vis-a-vis their relationship 
with Colombia and I'm going to start with you, Mr. Wells.
    You know, Colombia supplies 97 percent of cocaine to the 
United States and the question is why did we stop monitoring 
the coca crops in Colombia?
    Mr. Wells. Thank you for the question. As I understand it, 
the decision not to have a coca estimate this year was made a 
couple of years ago before the election of Gustavo Petro as 
president.
    We are the recipient agency of that----
    Ms. Salazar. Was made by whom?
    Mr. Wells. I believe it was made in the year 2020 and it is 
by other agencies. You would have to--I would have to refer you 
to the DNDCP for----
    Ms. Salazar. Let me ask you something. Do you think that 
that is a--that that--is that a good idea? I mean, maybe 
someone else negotiated it but the Biden Administration could 
say that's not a really very good idea and not really knowing 
how many new crops of coca are being planted in Colombia. What 
do you think about it?
    Mr. Wells. The--there are----
    Ms. Salazar. Don't you think it's outrageous that we do not 
know?
    Mr. Wells. There are various counts that are taken. So one 
is overseen by the ONDCP, which is the Office of National Drug 
Control Policy. There's also one by the U.N. Office of Drug----
    Ms. Salazar. Yes, but the U.N. does not--do not you think 
that the United Nations will know how--well, have the resources 
and the technology that we have in our intelligence agencies to 
really know?
    I mean, you personally what do you think about that, you 
being the assistant secretary for the Bureau of Western 
Hemisphere?
    You know, you're in charge of Colombia. What do you think 
about the fact that the United States will not know how many 
more coca crops the Colombians are going to be harvesting? What 
do you think about that.
    Mr. Wells. So, as I said, we have access to other types of 
measurement. We have the UNODC count which----
    Ms. Salazar. The U.N. is not the United States.
    Mr. Wells. It is not, but there have been parallel counts 
for many years. So we know the differences. The two teams 
discuss. We understand their methodologies and there isn't a 
resolution yet as to what the next steps are on the coca 
estimates.
    Ms. Salazar. I understand that the United States has left 
the game. I mean, we left the game and we're leaving it up to 
somebody else.
    Mr. Wells. Let me explain how also we're engaged, though. 
At the tactical level and operational level in Colombia we 
assist the Colombian military and the police in doing their own 
tactical level count. So they're looking for coca all the time.
    They use a system called SIIMA, and as someone who has been 
in the field implementing these programs, that's a very good 
tool for us to use. It helps us find the coca that we're going 
after.
    Ms. Salazar. But you know that it sends a very bad message 
that the United States is just not looking anymore.
    Now, let me move to another question. You know that 
President Petro is trying to negotiate peace or something with 
the Clan del Golfo. Clan del Golfo, as I said in my opening 
statement, is in two ignominious activities, drug trafficking 
and human trafficking.
    So my question is what is there to negotiate? From the 
United States point of view what is there to negotiate with the 
Clan del Golfo? I mean, simple. Give it to me simple. What is 
there to negotiate with this, one of the most important 
criminal organizations in the world?
    Mr. Wells. So we share your skepticism toward any----
    Ms. Salazar. Good.
    Mr. Wells [continuing]. Any dialog with the Clan del Golfo. 
I can tell you the intent is to not only negotiate with the 
ELN, but also with other politically motivated armed groups, 
but as well the Colombian government--the Petro government has 
conceived of negotiating with criminal groups. We are----
    Ms. Salazar. But what has the State Department said to 
Petro since the Biden Administration has closed the--closed to 
this--to the Petro Administration? Have you expressed your 
concerns to the President?
    Mr. Wells. I'm expressing them now that we are concerned 
about anything that results in impunity for narco-traffickers, 
and we would be very skeptical of any processes that give 
impunity to anyone ororganizations trafficking drugs.
    Ms. Salazar. Good. You are sending a message to President 
Petro as we speak so maybe he will change his mind. Now, what 
about the statement and you--and neither one of you said 
anything in your opening statements about what I'm going to 
pronounce right now.
    You know that President Petro said in Belgium that he sees 
no difference between the United States and Russia. I mean, 
that's a pretty unfortunate statement at this hour when we have 
the war with Ukraine. Do you agree with me?
    Mr. Wells. I agree that the war against Ukraine is unjust 
and brutal and it's all Russia's fault.
    Ms. Salazar. And what do you think about Petro saying that 
he does not know the difference between us and them? What do 
you--what do you think about that?
    Mr. Wells. What I can say is that three times the 
government of Colombia has supported votes against Russia's 
invasion of Ukraine at the U.N. We are not going to agree with 
every tweet that Gustavo Petro does and in this case we do not 
agree with that.
    But we've been pretty consistent and the Colombians have 
been supportive in international fora with regard to----
    Ms. Salazar. So he says one thing but he does another. 
Well, that's good. Words are not--sometimes they're not like 
actions. But it's all right.
    So besides the difference between the United States and 
Russia, President Petro also said that oil is more dangerous 
than cocaine. Oil more dangerous than cocaine. So what do you 
think about that? What does the State Department think about 
that?
    Mr. Wells. Well, with regard to coca, I mean, I think I 
said we are concerned about the rising levels of coca and 
cocaine production in Colombia. With regard to his positions on 
oil I can talk about that. You know, he said when he was 
elected that he was going to stop all further exploration or 
any new contracts in oil production. That's been his practice 
so far. We have not seen him actually cancel any existing ones.
    The United States--United States companies are fairly well 
invested in that area. Petro has expressed a desire to move and 
transition toward renewable energy and that's something that we 
support, and I think there's a lot of opportunities for U.S. 
companies to profit in that space. But I agree there is an 
uncertainty when it comes to the hydrocarbons industry about 
what's next.
    Ms. Salazar. So basically what you're telling me is that he 
may be saying something but doing something different because 
the State Department is sending the message to--that we do not 
agree with----
    Mr. Wells. I'm saying he's doing exactly what he said he 
would do, not to have any new oil contracts and we have not 
seen that yet.
    Ms. Salazar. Yes, but the fact that he's comparing oil to 
cocaine and saying that cocaine is better than oil it's--for 
me, it's--I think it's outrageous as well.
    And I'm just going to ask one more question. I do not want 
to abuse my time. But your colleague Todd Robinson said that 
Colombia is a net exporter of security, right. But we just 
learned that he wants to negotiate with the ELN and with the 
Clan del Golfo. So what--how can we interpret a net exporter of 
security?
    Mr. Wells. I believe the reference was to that Colombians 
provide security assistance to some of their neighbors north, 
especially up in Central America. They've done so for decades.
    We've partnered with them through SOUTHCOM and through 
Assistant Secretary Robinson's bureau, INL, and so they have 
provided some assistance. It's been useful in the past. I do 
not know about the reference to the ELN.
    Ms. Salazar. But do you consider that Colombia, since you 
study it every single day, that Colombia at this hour under 
Petro is a net exporter of security, being an ally of 
Venezuela--that Venezuela has the largest refugee migration on 
Earth.
    Mr. Wells. What I can say about that is that they have a 
relationship with Venezuela. We do not tell countries with whom 
they can have relations. He decided to do that when he came 
into office.
    I can say he definitely shares the goal of having a 
democratic solution in Venezuela. He hosted a conference in 
April with some 20 countries and there those countries affirmed 
the need to--for Venezuela to return to the path of democracy 
and affirm that the process that the international community is 
undertaking----
    Ms. Salazar. I thank you. Sorry, I'm interrupting. I have 
to--my time has expired. I now recognize Ranking Member Castro 
for 5 minutes. Thank you.
    Mr. Castro. Chairwoman, I'd like to yield my time to the 
ranking member of the full committee, Gregory Meeks from New 
York.
    Ms. Salazar. OK.
    Mr. Meeks. Thank you, Rep. Castro. I'm tempted to, you 
know, talk about our former president, who impeached twice, now 
indicted twice, may be indicted again for resurrection in 
January 6 and the guy that's friends with Kim Jong-un. I would 
hope our allies do not look at that or think that is what 
America is.
    We still have strong government institutions. So I'm not 
going to talk about that. Let me start by just saying this. 
Democracy in Colombia is not in peril.
    The people of Colombia have embraced free and fair 
elections for decades, even during some of the most challenging 
years of internal conflict, and I've been involved in Colombia 
since I've been here.
    I've been involved with one, two, three, four, five 
presidents from Pastrana, Uribe, Santos, Duque, and now Petro, 
and that's our job is to deal with who the people decide they 
want to be their president. That's democracy. Elections. Count 
the votes. Don't deny him after they're counted. Count the 
votes and the people decides who their president is.
    What would imperil Colombia and, indeed, the region are the 
Republican proposed cuts, roughly, 30 percent for our entire 
State foreign operations and related programs budgets. These 
steep cuts would deeply impede our ability to provide 
humanitarian and development assistance at this pivotal time in 
Colombia.
    And I might add that last year we just celebrated our 200-
year-long bilateral relationship, applauded free and fair 
elections, witnessed a peaceful transfer--transition of power 
and supported the ushering in of a diverse, inclusive, and 
progressive Administration under President Petro and Vice 
President Marquez.
    The narrative that Colombia has, quote, ``big problems with 
democracy'' with its institutions, with the economy, and with 
President Petro's total peace policy is divisive and 
counterproductive, particularly when that narrative is used 
against his interest in negotiating with the ELN to extend 
peace beyond the 2016 Peace Accord.
    Colombia is a democratic country with a democratically 
elected government and democratic institutions and process in 
place. One change in policy that we may disagree with does not 
change our shared common values and histories. As we strive to 
reach common goals we should do so in partnership.
    Additionally, I'm deeply concerned that withholding funding 
in Colombia runs contrary to the United States drug policy, 
security, and commercial interests. The shared challenges we 
have can only be addressed if we support Colombia's efforts 
toward lasting peace and strengthening institutions and access 
to justice.
    We must help Colombia buildup civic participation and 
civilian services in the most rural areas, those areas where 
oftentimes indigenous and African Colombians live and which 
Petro says he is focused on.
    I was there at his inauguration and for the first time I 
heard those communities talk about extensively--I heard it 
under President Uribe and I heard it under President Santos 
also.
    The assistance that we provided for decades in a bipartisan 
fashion does just that. It competes with the drivers of illicit 
economies and violence to renew belief in democracy and ushers 
in much needed change.
    What's confusing and shocking to me is watching my 
colleagues across the aisle complain about the influence of 
China and other adversaries while simultaneously proposing to 
no longer support our strongest allies in the region.
    We do not advance United States interests if we withdraw 
from the table nor do we address these challenges if we shut 
out and deny regional stakeholders from being at the table.
    A peaceful future for Colombia may require dialog with a 
Cuba or a Venezuela, particularly when it concerns negotiation 
with the ELN or addressing the migration challenge head on.
    Colombia is not sliding into a socialist State. I've worked 
closely, as I said, with every Colombian president since I was 
elected to Congress because I believe in the potential of the 
Colombian people. I've fallen in love with the Colombian people 
and their strife in moving for democracy.
    I've seen them at each one of these elections stand in line 
and make sure that their voices are heard with their vote. I 
saw it in this last election that elected Petro.
    That's democracy, not someone coming from someplace else 
and saying that you should not be. I know the constructive that 
constructive dialog and cooperation between our countries will 
reap benefits on both sides of our bilateral relationship.
    And, again, I want to thank the witnesses that are here. I 
do not want to take up any more time from this distinguished 
panel. But let me just say that we've got to listen and work 
with our allies in the region, not just be above them and tell 
them you do what we tell you to do.
    But let's promote those democracies and look at those 
things that we have in common, and as what took place when 
President Petro came here to visit President Biden and Members 
of Congress he's indicated that he's willing to continue to do 
just that.
    And I yield back.
    Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Chairman Meeks. And I just want to 
add that we are also in love with the Colombian people and I 
represent hundreds of thousands of them, and reality is that we 
want to keep it that way for 200 years, like you said.
    We want to keep free and fair elections for the Colombians. 
Our concern is that Petro may stop that for the next 200 years. 
But thank you.
    Now I recognize Congressman Self for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Self. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    We just heard the term decades. Here in our own country we 
realize that the past decades really do not matter because of 
the open border policy under this current president. So my 
point is that current presidents make a difference. Witness our 
own open border policy. Words, not actions.
    So my question is we've heard a lot about this 2016 
agreement with the FARC. Does the FARC EP and Segundo 
Marquetalia represent a threat to Colombia?
    Mr. Wells. Thank you for the question, Congressman. Yes, 
both of those are foreign terrorist organizations under our 
law. Both the FARC EP and the Segundo Marquetalia are 
derivatives of the old FARC that signed the 2016 peace 
agreement.
    Mr. Self. So what is your assessment of their future? 
Because the FARC was years and years in Colombia. What is 
their--what is your assessment of their future in Colombia?
    Mr. Wells. So these are people who either did not agree 
with the original Peace Accord or they never--or they signed it 
and then later defected from that.
    In the Segundo Marquetalia case, many of them have taken up 
residence in Venezuela. In the case of the FARC EP--and I'm 
speaking very generally here--they function inside the 
Colombian borders.
    They are politically motivated but I would say 
predominantly they are narco-trafficking organizations solely 
dedicated to trafficking.
    Mr. Self. OK. Do you believe your words on page two, long-
standing commitment to democracy? I think Mr. Meeks just 
addressed that. Counter smuggling in the Darien region--you 
talked about we now see Darien peaking at, like, 400,000.
    You--intensifying bilateral cooperation in intelligence and 
interdiction to dismantle transnational criminal networks and 
counter illicit activities--do you believe those words? Then 
fight corruption and improve security and justice with the 
Colombian institutions--is that--that is that going to happen 
or is that cooperation possible under this president?
    Mr. Wells. So earlier this summer, Congressman--and thank 
you for that question--we worked with the Colombians and the 
Panamanians to undertake law enforcement activities and border 
control enforcement on both sides of that border in the Darien 
region.
    They did that with some technical assistance from SOUTHCOM. 
The idea was to go after human smuggling rings in that area and 
try to at least counter over the summer the effect of those.
    When it comes to the institutions I'll refer you to the 
attorney general's office, which has a long-standing tradition 
of independence. It is, in fact, investigating some of the 
allegations made against President Petro.
    We have invested maybe hundreds of millions of dollars in 
that organization over the years. It's the organization that 
took down Pablo Escobar and does prosecutions against any--all 
manner of drug traffickers.
    Mr. Self. Why your focus on Venezuela in your testimony?
    Mr. Wells. Well, Venezuela and Colombia are sister 
republics. They have a shared population. When the FARC was 
attacking the Colombian people so violently in the 1990's many 
Colombians fled into Venezuela, and now you're seeing a reverse 
of Venezuelans fleeing the misery and poverty brought on by the 
Maduro regime into Colombia.
    Mr. Self. Exactly. Thank you. So that's why I think we have 
got to focus on what is happening there, not the rosy 
perspectives that you gave us. And one more point about the 
Darien Gap and my time will be up.
    It is so dangerous, and you probably know this, that your 
government, the United States government--it is so dangerous 
that we issue prerape kits to the females transiting the Darien 
Gap.
    Madam Chair, I yield back.
    Ms. Salazar. Thank you. Now we're going to recognize 
Congresswoman Kamlager-Dove for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair, and I 
want to thank you witnesses for being here today. I want to 
first State that I do not support the premise of this hearing, 
which is that we should be attacking a partner because the 
elected government's priorities do not align with our domestic 
views.
    It is patronizing and paternalistic and anti-democratic to 
weaponize our relationship in order to wield veto power over 
the domestic political process of our democratic partners and 
it brazenly resurrects a destructive cold war approach that 
caused deep instability and dangerous mistrust and ruptured 
relations in ways we are still trying to repair.
    And as I just have been listening, I--you know, talking 
about, well, you have a president who's saying something, do 
you agree with what they've said. You know, I do not want to 
follow our ranking member but we did have a former president 
who said a whole bunch of things, who said that he could shoot 
somebody in the face walking down Fifth Avenue and nothing 
would happen to him, who said he could grab someone--a woman by 
her genitalia, who said we should have a complete and total 
shutdown of Muslims entering the United States, who said that 
laziness is a trait in Blacks, who said about Mexican-Americans 
they're rapists even though some of them, I assume, are good 
people. I could go on and on.
    I would hope that no one on this committee supports those 
kinds of statements. It's about allowing people to have free 
and fair elections in their own country. I hear things on the 
floor that I do not agree with. It's not about attacking that 
individual person.
    I also want to say before I mess up my notes that the 
United States remains Colombia's main trading partner. Colombia 
is a top destination for United States agricultural exports 
valued at more than $4.2 billion.
    Over 500 American companies have arrived in Colombia over 
the past decade with investments worth $26 billion. We're 
talking about GE, Amazon, Cisco, IBM. Colombia and the United 
States share one of Latin America's most comprehensive defense 
cooperation frameworks.
    Since Petro has been sworn in over eight multinational 
operations have been conducted between the Colombian navy and 
the United States.
    Colombian national police have conducted over 104 joint 
operations with U.S. law enforcement agencies, operational 
results against drug trafficking, and do not get me started on 
our drug policy in the United States because we only seem to 
want to go after certain people and maybe if people stopped 
using drugs we'd have to stop having drug policies that 
disproportionately impact Black and brown people. I digress.
    Operational results against drug trafficking since 
President Petro took office show figures on interdiction, 
seizures, and the destruction of criminal infrastructure, 
609,000 tons of cocaine seized, 887,000 tons of coca leaf 
seized, 61,000 tons of coca base seized.
    It sounds to me like we have a good partner. Last I checked 
in any kind of relationship, you know, an effective partnership 
isn't you agree 100 percent of the time on 100 percent of 
things. I do not know a partnership like that. I do not know a 
marriage like that.
    So I do not know why we're trying to be very discriminatory 
when it comes to Colombia. So none of those were questions. I 
apologize. But I'm irritated.
    But I will ask you both a question. Help me, Jesus. Can you 
speak in just--maybe not--maybe in 30 seconds or less, very 
interested in the ways that your programs and your engaging of 
the Colombians and the Colombian government are addressing 
issues like illegal mining and discrimination against Afro-
Colombians and human rights issues because those are also 
important things as well as reminding people how important it 
is to tell the truth. You only have 18 seconds. I'm so sorry.
    Mr. Natiello. Yes. Thank you so--thank you so much for the 
questions, Representative. I'll just say in the short time that 
I have that USAID is actively involved in working with the 
Colombian government-successive Colombian governments-and 
communities in mining areas to help formalize informal miners 
so that they can protect workers rights, so they can pay taxes, 
they can sell their gold through legal markets, et cetera.
    We've been doing that for many years and we've had some 
important successes with it, pilots that Colombia can then use 
to scale to reach this issue on a broader scale with more 
people and more miners and more communities.
    And just in terms of our work with Afro-Colombians and 
indigenous, thanks to the generosity of this Congress and 
really----
    Ms. Salazar. Your time is up.
    Mr. Natiello. Yes. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Salazar. Thanks to you. Thank you, Congresswoman 
Kamlager-Dove.
    And then a vote has been called on the House floor, as you 
know. Therefore, the subcommittee will have to recess and we 
will reconvene following the vote. There's only one vote. So 
the subcommittee stands in recess.
    [Recess.]
    Ms. Salazar. So the subcommittee will reconvene and I will 
now recognize Congressman Stanton for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Stanton. Thank you very much, Chair--thank you very 
much, Chairwoman. Thank you, both of our witnesses, for being 
here today and your patience with the votes in the middle of 
our hearing.
    I represent Arizona, which is no stranger to the challenges 
and opportunities of migration, the harms of drug trafficking, 
or the competition posed by China.
    These are complex issues that require multilateral 
solutions and strong bilateral ties and Colombia has been a 
reliable partner on these fronts, recently working with our 
State Department have set up a regional processing center for 
migrants journeying through Latin America.
    These centers prescreen individuals to see if they are 
eligible to enter the United States legally and are intended to 
slow the flow of migration after the end of Title 42.
    Colombia is one of only three Latin American countries 
working with the United States on this important project. 
Colombia also hosts more than two and a half million Venezuelan 
migrants and refugees who have fled the autocratic Maduro 
regime.
    These migrants need help settling in Colombia and the 
United States Agency for International Development provides 
funding for just that purpose.
    Last year USAID granted around $30 million to support food 
security, health care, job training so that Venezuelan migrants 
could find a home in Colombia rather than making the dangerous 
trek north to the United States.
    Our country has also worked with Colombia on counter 
narcotics efforts. 2021 U.S.-Colombia Counter Narcotics 
Strategy set about holistically reducing coca supplies by 
targeting laboratories and traffickers, investing in the 
security and economic development of the rural areas, and 
restoring tropical rainforests that have been turned into coca 
fields.
    Finally, while I hope that Colombia establishes diplomatic 
ties with Taiwan I also recognize that Colombia is one of only 
12 Latin American or Caribbean countries that is not a member 
of China's Belt and Road Initiative.
    Instead, it maintains close ties with the United States, 
which is its largest trade and investment partner. With this 
strong relationship as a backdrop, I have a few questions for 
Deputy Assistant Secretary Wells.
    Recently, the State and Foreign Operations Appropriations 
Subcommittee voted to defer funding to Colombia, potentially 
leaving the State Department and USAID with no designated 
funding system to work on projects with Colombia.
    Does this undermine the progress we've made to make America 
safer?
    Mr. Wells. Thank you for the question, Congressman.
    Let me just say that the shared goals that we have in 
Colombia include countering transnational crime and drug 
trafficking, promoting peace and security, protecting the 
Amazon, preventing and responding to human rights violations, 
reducing irregular migration influx, and supporting the 
government of Colombia to integrate the Venezuelan communities.
    We use the funds we get to do some of these things. It's to 
increase the operational capacity of the Colombian national 
police and their military, which serve as staunch allies for us 
in the region in all kinds of operations.
    We support the attorney general's office and Colombia's 
justice sector, which are critical components in maintaining 
Colombia's constitutional checks and balances. We also do Peace 
Accord implementation.
    We protect human rights and social and environmental 
defenders who face increased risk of attack and we support, as 
I mentioned, the programs that allow us to help Venezuelans.
    Instead of going north they settle down in Colombia and 
integrate into Colombian society, and we protect the Amazon 
including support to programs to counter deforestation and 
promote agriculture that does not harm the environment. Those 
are all things that we can do when we have a consistent flow of 
assistance.
    Mr. Stanton. If we were to defer this funding, as the 
Subcommittee on--in Appropriations recently voted on how would 
such a deferral encourage Colombia to create closer ties with 
China?
    Mr. Wells. So their relationship with China, as you 
mentioned, you know, we are still the number-one investor. We 
are the number-one trading partner with them. As you mentioned, 
they have not signed the Belt and Road Initiative. I know that 
President Petro has talked about that or has considered that.
    But the U.S. companies are still quite vibrant there and we 
have a robust--we have a trade agreement. They do not have one 
with China. Were we to back out of this decades-long investment 
in security and social ties we would be surrendering a vital 
strategic ally in the region and a partner that can work with 
us on an array of issues.
    Mr. Stanton. Final question. Same thing. If we were to 
defer funding how would it impact Colombia's ability work with 
the U.S. on migration and counter narcotics?
    Mr. Wells. So in the same way, we depend on the Colombian 
military and police to effect all kinds of seizures, detection, 
and monitoring.
    They're fully integrated with the U.S. military when it 
comes to detecting and monitoring cocaine shipments through the 
region. We would--that would--suffer if we did not have that 
funding.
    Mr. Stanton. Thank you very much. I yield back.
    Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Congressman. And now I'm going to 
recognize myself for 5 minutes. I just have few more questions 
that I would like to share with you and, specifically, Mr. 
Wells, you said during your testimony that President Petro 
works very well with the rest of Central American countries 
that are exporting people to the United States.
    But I just want to share with you the fact that the 
Panamanian foreign minister and some people at the highest 
level of the Panamanian government came to my office and told 
me specifically that they have a problem with Colombia because 
more than 400,000 people have arrived through the Darien jungle 
and Colombia really does not stop them.
    On the contrary, Colombia and under the Petro 
Administration lets them come through and the Panamanians find 
themselves having a major problem because they cannot absorb so 
many people trying to go through Central America to get to the 
Mexican border.
    So could you please explain to me what is the difference 
between your statements and what the Panamanians are living, 
are experiencing on the ground?
    Mr. Wells. Thank you for the question. As I mentioned, 
there are 2.5 million Venezuelans who have stayed in Colombia 
so the Colombians are playing host to that group. That's a 
group that is not going north.
    There are a lot going north and the United States engages 
in a multi-country and multi-agency effort to basically take 
three lines of action. One is enforcement. One is diplomacy----
    Ms. Salazar. But I do not think that's what I asked you. I 
asked you the relationship between Colombia and Panama. 
Specifically, the Panamanians do not think that the Colombians 
are helping them stop the traffic.
    Mr. Wells. I think it is a regular problem. I mentioned 
earlier we help them forwarding----
    Ms. Salazar. But are you aware what the Panamanians--but 
are you aware what the Panamanians are saying? I'm sure the 
Panamanians have come to the State Department and explained 
their concerns. They need Colombia's help in order to stop the 
flow of people through the Darien jungle.
    Mr. Wells. And when I served in Bogota from 2019 to 2021, I 
got the same complaint that the Colombians do not do enough to 
stop the trafficking or the free movement of Venezuela mostly 
through the----
    Ms. Salazar. But do not you think that now things have 
gotten worse and that Colombia is helping less?
    Mr. Wells. I think there is an uptick in trafficking as the 
situation in Venezuela worsens. There are greater outflows of 
migrants and we do continue to work with both sides of the 
Darien.
    Ms. Salazar. But you have not helped--you have not heard 
from the Colombians that concern that I just explained to you? 
You have not heard that from the--from the Panamanians?
    Mr. Wells. I have heard that in the past, yes.
    Ms. Salazar. But no--now in the present?
    Mr. Wells. And I hate to apologize but I actually do not 
cover Panama. So, but I know that it is a complaint and I know 
that we work with them. It's why I mentioned the joint 
operations in the Darien that we worked on earlier this summer.
    Ms. Salazar. OK. Now, what about the ELN? You know, as I 
explained during my opening remarks, that the Petro government 
is negotiating with the ELN, which is one of the two guerrilla 
movements in Colombia. The ELN right now is on the terrorist 
list.
    By any chance is the State Department is thinking or 
considering the possibility of removing the ELN from the 
terrorist list due to the fact that the Petro Administration is 
wanting to negotiate peace with them?
    Mr. Wells. No, we are not considering removing the ELN from 
the foreign terrorist organization list.
    Ms. Salazar. Good.
    Mr. Wells. The ELN process is something that we are 
watching, we're monitoring, and we are in constant 
communication with the Colombian government about it. I think, 
as I mentioned earlier, we want to maintain some healthy 
skepticism about it because the ELN is a terrorist 
organization.
    They have started peace processes in the past and they have 
not fulfilled it. Next week there is a 6-month cease-fire 
that's supposed to go into effect, and we call on the ELN to 
protect civilians and any victims of their terrorist 
activities. They need to be accountable for holding up that 
cease-fire.
    Ms. Salazar. And what do you think about the fact that the 
ELN sprayed graffiti on Maria Corina Machado's office? The 
Biden Administration has been working with the Maduro 
government and my question is do not you think that maybe we 
should be sending a message to President Petro and President 
Maduro that Maria Corina should be protected and should be 
guarded against any type of threats?
    Mr. Wells. We, obviously, condemn that act and we----
    Ms. Salazar. Did you know about it?
    Mr. Wells. Yes, and we were pleased to see that President 
Petro also condemned it and he called on the suspension of 
Maria Corina Machado's disqualification to be lifted because--
--
    Ms. Salazar. Good.
    Mr. Wells [continuing]. He himself experienced a similar 
treatment years ago.
    Ms. Salazar. Of course. Of course. We all want democracy in 
both countries. Now, based--finally, you also know the--some of 
the comments that President Petro has made against the 
Colombian press. He called them specifically racist, enemy of 
the people, and that they have incited genocide.
    What do you think about the Colombian press? You have many 
of those members among you here in this hearing. In my 
understanding the Colombian press is pretty impartial and they 
do a good job.
    Do you agree with what President Petro is saying, that they 
are racist, the enemy of the people, specifically the enemy of 
the people?
    Mr. Wells. No. Independent press is not the enemy of the 
people anywhere. I believe that Colombian journalism is 
excellent.
    They have a lot of investigative journalism and, in fact, 
they're the ones that have investigated a lot of the corruption 
allegations that President Petro is facing now. And so----
    Ms. Salazar. Good.
    Mr. Wells [continuing]. They will continue to do that 
because----
    Ms. Salazar. This is a very important message that you're 
saying, Mr. Wells, and I'm very happy that you're doing--that 
you're saying it because the Colombians have a very 
independent, rigorous news media and we need to preserve them 
regardless of how they are covering the news.
    That's up to them, which is the same case in the United 
States. So I'm glad that the State Department is sending that 
message to the Petro Administration do not touch the press. Do 
you agree with me?
    Mr. Wells. Yes. In fact, the existence really shows the 
strength and vitality of Colombian democracy today.
    Ms. Salazar. Indeed, and that's why we need to preserve 
that vibrancy in the Colombian democracy. You agree with me?
    Mr. Wells. I agree.
    Ms. Salazar. And do you feel by any chance that Mr. Petro--
President Petro may be one of those hindrances or the forces 
against the continuation of that democracy?
    Mr. Wells. As I said earlier, we have relationships with 
the institutions. I do not want to comment on every single 
tweet he puts out.
    I think he issues more than a dozen tweets a day. He is one 
of the most prolific tweeters. I will say we support Colombian 
institutions. We believe that Colombian democracy remains 
strong today.
    Ms. Salazar. And do you have any fear that those Colombian 
institutions may be under threat?
    Mr. Wells. I do not.
    Ms. Salazar. Good. Well, let's keep it that way. Thank you, 
sir.
    And now I recognize the ranking member, Mr. Castro.
    Mr. Castro. Thank you.
    Mr. Wells, you made a comment and there was some discussion 
about the migration--the migration situation of Venezuelans to 
Colombia, and can you describe how Venezuelans have been 
treated in Colombia who are arriving from Venezuela there?
    Or either one of you and whoever is best suited to answer 
that. For example, have they been provided work permits, food, 
shelter, so forth?
    Mr. Natiello. Yes, I'll take that, Representative Castro. 
Thank you for that.
    So it's noteworthy that Colombia has pre-registered for 
temporary protective status to two and a half million 
Venezuelans. Colombia has advanced rapidly to register close to 
2 million of those folks.
    By being registered those Venezuelans have access to health 
care in Colombia. They can enter the job market in Colombia. 
They would pay taxes, I believe, in Colombia. They could put 
their children in school.
    And so USAID has been an important partner to Colombia in 
helping them do that. Colombia has established dozens of 
integration centers around the country to help that process. 
USAID is supporting Colombia in 11 of the centers that receive 
the biggest flow through of Venezuelan migrants.
    And, again, our support has helped that registration 
process. It's helped them get connected to health care, to help 
their kids get in school and we also work with microfinance 
banks to provide credits to Venezuelan migrants so they can 
start businesses and we provided business training as well to 
thousands----
    Mr. Castro. And let me--well, first, I want to say thank 
you to USAID, to the State Department. Thank you for your work 
there. And is it safe to say, fair to say, that if Venezuela 
was not--I'm sorry, if Colombia was not so receiving of 
Venezuelans that many of those Venezuelans might try to make it 
up north including to the United States?
    Mr. Natiello. So, I would say that Colombia's efforts to 
register and integrate Venezuelans is deterring them from going 
through the Darien Gap and from going north and that's one of 
the reasons why USAID works closely with Colombia to just to 
help them to support their Venezuelan brothers and sisters.
    Mr. Castro. And, you know, I know because we've been 
discussing political leaders and so forth and the actions of 
nations with respect to migration, and then you compare that to 
the barbaric actions of Texas Governor Greg Abbott, who put 
death traps at the U.S.-Mexico border and the Rio Grande, laid 
razor wire including in areas of the river that rise such that 
razor wire becomes invisible to people who make their way and 
get caught in it, and also installed barrel traps with netting 
so that people get caught in those barrel traps.
    So if those folks had not stayed in Colombia it's likely 
that some of those Venezuelans would have encountered these 
death traps on the Rio Grande. It's gotten so bad that there 
was a 4-year-old girl who was passing out in the water and was 
instructed by Texas State trooper leadership to be pushed back 
into the water toward Mexico. Very barbaric inhumane policies 
that you might expect to see come out of a place like North 
Korea or somewhere like that.
    So I want to say thank you to Colombia, to both its 
conservative and liberal presidents who have maintained that 
policy of treating folks humanely in both conservative and more 
progressive governments, and thank you all for your work in 
supporting them.
    I also want to ask you just one more question. President 
Petro represents change in Colombian politics but I believe 
there's still substantial continuity in U.S.-Colombian 
relations.
    Can you both speak or either one of you speak, because I'm 
short on time, to whether you've seen a significant change in 
our relationship with Colombia, particularly cooperation on 
such areas of national and regional interests since President 
Petro was elected? Has something significantly changed in the 
U.S.-Colombia relationship, in your estimation?
    Mr. Wells. Thank you for the question. No, in the regional 
context we still have great cooperation with the Colombians.
    As I mentioned, they held a conference on Venezuela and 
convened 20 countries to talk about the international 
community's response for Venezuela and encouraging a democratic 
return to democracy.
    I'd also say as was previously mentioned--just that there 
is a continuation of extraditions. There's a continuation of 
military exercises. There has been no interruption that we can 
see in joint police operations to confiscate drugs.
    So institutionally all of those pieces we see as having no 
change, and we continue to have good cooperation even though 
there is a change in political perspective in the presidency.
    Mr. Castro. Thank you, gentlemen, for your testimony. I 
yield back, Chair.
    Ms. Salazar. Thank you, Ranking Member, Mr. Castro, and I 
want to thank the witnesses for their valuable testimony.
    Mr. Natiello, sorry that I did not get to talk to you too 
much but I'm sure there will be a next time. And to Mr. Wells 
for being here and the rest of the members of this committee--
subcommittee for their questions.
    The members of the subcommittee may have some additional 
questions for the witnesses. We will ask you to respond to them 
in writing.
    So pursuant to committee rules, all members may have 5 days 
to submit statements, questions, and extraneous material for 
the record, subject to the length limitations.
    Without objection, the committee now stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 3:53 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]

                                APPENDIX
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           STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM RANKING MEMBER MEEKS
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           STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM CONGRESSMAN MCGOVERN
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            RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
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