[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                      TERRORIST ENTRY THROUGH THE
                            SOUTHWEST BORDER

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION INTEGRITY, 
                          SECURITY, AND ENFORCEMENT

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                      THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 14, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-43

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
         
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]         


               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
               
                              __________

                                
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
53-550                      WASHINGTON : 2023                    
          
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------     
                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

DARRELL ISSA, California             JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking 
KEN BUCK, Colorado                       Member
MATT GAETZ, Florida                  ZOE LOFGREN, California
MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana              SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
TOM McCLINTOCK, California           HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin                   Georgia
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              ADAM SCHIFF, California
CHIP ROY, Texas                      ERIC SWALWELL, California
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina           TED LIEU, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          J. LUIS CORREA, California
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  LUCY McBATH, Georgia
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
KEVIN KILEY, California              CORI BUSH, Missouri
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             GLENN IVEY, Maryland
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               BECCA BALINT, Vermont
LAUREL LEE, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina

                                 ------                                

            SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION INTEGRITY, SECURITY,
                            AND ENFORCEMENT

                   TOM McCLINTOCK, California, Chair

KEN BUCK, Colorado                   PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington, 
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                      Ranking Member
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin               ZOE LOFGREN, California
CHIP ROY, Texas                      J. LUIS CORREA, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 ERIC SWALWELL, California
WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   Vacancy

               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
          AMY RUTKIN, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                      Thursday, September 14, 2023

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Tom McClintock, Chair of the Subcommittee on 
  Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the State 
  of California..................................................     1
The Honorable Pramila Jayapal, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee 
  on Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the 
  State of Washington............................................     3
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on 
  the Judiciary from the State of New York.......................     4
The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary 
  from the State of Ohio.........................................     6

                               WITNESSES

Todd Bensman, Senior National Security Fellow, Center for 
  Immigration Studies
  Oral Testimony.................................................     7
  Prepared Testimony.............................................     9
Charles Marino, Former Senior Law Enforcement Advisor, Department 
  of Homeland Security
  Oral Testimony.................................................    24
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    26
Alex Nowrasteh, Vice President for Economic and Social Policy 
  Studies, Cato Institute
  Oral Testimony.................................................    35
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    37
Chief Rodney Scott, Distinguished Senior Fellow for Border 
  Security, Texas Public Policy Foundation
  Oral Testimony.................................................    49
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    51

          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

All materials submitted for the record by the Subcommittee on 
  Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement are listed 
  below..........................................................    81

A letter from Ohio Immigrant Alliance, Sept. 7, 2023, to the 
  Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary 
  from the State of Ohio, and the Honorable Jerrold Nadler, 
  Ranking Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State 
  of New York, submitted by the Honorable Pramila Jayapal, 
  Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, 
  Security, and Enforcement from the State of Washington, for the 
  record

 
              TERRORIST ENTRY THROUGH THE SOUTHWEST BORDER

                              ----------                              


                      Thursday, September 14, 2023

                        House of Representatives

            Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security,

                            and Enforcement

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10 a.m., in Room 
2141, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Tom McClintock [Chair 
of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives McClintock, Jordan, Buck, 
Biggs, Tiffany, Roy, Spartz, Van Drew, Moore, Hunt, Jayapal, 
Nadler, Correa, Escobar, Ross, and Swalwell.
    Mr. McClintock. The Subcommittee will come to order. 
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess 
at any time.
    I want to welcome everyone to today's hearing on Terrorist 
Entry Through the Southwest Border. I will now recognize myself 
for an opening statement.
    Three days ago, we marked the 22nd Anniversary of the 
Taliban-backed terrorist attack on the United States. Two weeks 
ago, we marked the 2nd Anniversary of the administration's 
surrender to the Taliban, turning over billions of dollars of 
military equipment and releasing more than 5,000 of the most 
dangerous terrorists on the planet from Bagram-Parwan detention 
facility. On January 20th, we will mark the 3rd Anniversary of 
the Biden Executive Orders that opened our borders to the world 
by halting construction of the border wall, rescinding the 
remain in Mexico policy, and forbidding ICE from enforcing 
court-ordered deportations.
    Since that day, more than 5.7 million illegal aliens from 
over 160 countries have illegally crossed our border. Mr. Biden 
has released over 2.6 million of them, a population larger than 
the entire State of New Mexico, into the United States in 
violation of our immigration laws. While the Border Patrol has 
been overwhelmed by this unprecedented mass illegal migration, 
another 1.7 million known got-aways have entered as well. That 
is an additional illegal population the size of West Virginia.
    Now, since we have no access to most foreign criminal data 
bases, we know little of the foreign criminal records of these 
2.6 million illegal immigrants as they have been released into 
our communities and of course, we know nothing of the 1.7 
million got-aways.
    We know from a recent GAO report that many have already 
disappeared into our communities without a trace. Of 981,000 
alien records they surveyed they found that, ``addresses for 
more than 177,000 were either missing, invalid for delivery, or 
not legitimate residential locations.''
    According to the GAO, the lack of valid addresses means 
that ICE, ``cannot locate migrants to enforce immigration laws 
including to arrest or remove individuals who are considered 
potential threats to national security.''
    Of much greater concern, of course, is the 1.7 million 
known got-aways, people the Border Patrol has observed entering 
this country, but could not stop because our resources are 
overwhelmed.
    Under the open border policies of the Democrats, if you 
illegally enter this country, seek out a Border Patrol agent 
and make a false asylum claim, you will almost certainly be 
released into our country. You will get taxpayer-funded travel 
wherever you want to go and lots of free stuff including cash, 
food, free medical care, and even education. After six months, 
you can get work authorization and when your asylum claim is 
finally heard and denied, years from now, and you are ordered 
deported, that deportation order most likely won't be enforced.
    So, why would 1.7 million illegal aliens want to invade the 
Border Patrol? The only two reasons I can think of are that 
they are either hiding criminal records or they are conducting 
criminal acts. We do know that among those aliens the Border 
Patrol has apprehended, the number of suspected terrorists has 
increased exponentially. In 2021, we stopped 15 of them. That 
was five times the number encountered in 2020 and as many as we 
had stopped in the four previous years combined. By 2022, that 
number grew to 98 and in the first 10 months of this year that 
number has already grown to 146, a tenfold increase in two 
years.
    In June, FBI Director Chris Wray testified before this 
Committee that there has been an uptick in ``known or suspected 
terrorists coming across the Southern border,'' and that ``the 
Southern border represents a massive security threat.'' Those 
are his words, a massive security threat.
    In August, we learned that a foreign national with ties to 
ISIS helped smuggle over 120 nationals from Uzbekistan, Russia, 
Georgia, and Chechnya into the United States through the 
Southwest border. Russian reports indicated that the FBI was 
``scrambling to find the smuggled individuals since the Biden 
Administration had released them into the U.S.'' Of course, 
this begs the question if illegal aliens are so carefully 
vetted, as Mr. Mayorkas has repeatedly assured this Committee, 
why would the FBI be scrambling to find them? Clearly, very bad 
actors are entering our country through our open Southwest 
border and I am afraid something terrible is brewing, either a 
coordinated terrorist attack by elements that have entered over 
the last few years, or the kind of cartel violence that has now 
become so common in Mexico.
    Now, the Democrats' witness will tell us not to worry our 
pretty little heads about this, it hasn't happened yet. Well, 
that is precisely the attitude that the 9/11 Commission 
excoriated as the catastrophic failure public policy that made 
us vulnerable to such a horror on 9/11.
    Our other witnesses though have a very different 
perspective. They have seen first-hand what is happening at the 
border and they are desperately trying to sound the alarm 
before it is too late. I hope that we will all heed their 
warnings today. With that, I am pleased to recognize the 
Ranking Member for five minutes.
    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome and good morning 
to our witnesses.
    It appears that this Subcommittee has found a new angle to 
have the same border hearing that we have had six times already 
this Congress, another hearing where we hear the same tired and 
untrue talking points about the Southern border and actions by 
President Biden and Secretary Mayorkas. I am not going to 
repeat them because guess what, these claims by my Republican 
colleagues, actually, empower smugglers to convince desperate 
migrants to pay for their services.
    When I read the CNN article that came out at the end of 
last month about migrants from Uzbekistan crossing the Southern 
border with the help from somebody allegedly linked to ISIS, I 
wanted to learn more. Everyone on this panel wants to keep 
Americans safe and the idea that individuals with ties to 
terrorists might be crossing our border and intending to do our 
country harm is deeply concerning. This potential issue is one 
that should be approached with an eye toward gathering the 
facts and information so that we can act accordingly.
    Unfortunately, that is not what this hearing is about. This 
hearing appears to be nothing more than political theater with 
little new information. What bothers me the most is that my 
Republican colleagues use these hearings to weaponize the 
emotions of the American public to score cheap political points 
as we head into the next election. This is not about telling 
the truth or getting to the facts. This hearing is purely 
intended to scare the public, to demonize immigrants, and to 
score cheap political points as we head toward that next 
election.
    If the majority was serious about getting to the facts on 
this issue, instead of holding this hearing, the Subcommittee 
would have first let the Department of Homeland Security and 
Federal Bureau of Investigation give Members a classified 
briefing on the topic, something that both the FBI and DHS has 
offered to provide us. My understanding is that the FBI and DHS 
have even offered specific dates on when this briefing can take 
place in the near future. Instead, the majority is once again 
holding a hearing with no government witnesses, not a single 
government witness where we will hear a lot of innuendo, 
hearsay, and scary-sounding rhetoric intended to play politics 
on the issue of immigration. This is not the way to conduct 
oversight, especially over a national security issue that 
belongs in a classified setting. This is not a serious hearing 
intended to gather facts and get to the truth, but while we are 
here, I think it is important for us to get some facts out 
there.

        (1)  In the last 48 years going back to 1975, the number of 
        Americans killed by a terrorist who crossed the Southern border 
        unlawfully is zero. That is right. Not a single American has 
        been injured or killed by a terrorist who crossed our Southern 
        border without authorization. So, don't fall for Republican 
        fearmongering.
        (2)  The only foreign-born terrorists who cross the Southern 
        border unlawfully were three brothers from Macedonia who came 
        to the United States while Ronald Reagan was President. Twenty 
        years later, they were arrested while planning an attack in New 
        Jersey. Our systems worked then, but you certainly won't hear 
        Republicans on this Committee raise either of those facts.
        (3)  Yes, there has been an increase in the number of migrants 
        apprehended who are on the ``Terrorist Screening Data Set.'' 
        These people have been apprehended and they receive additional 
        vetting and interviews from DHS as a result. There is also 
        coordination with the FBI on the appropriate action that should 
        be taken when responding to these individuals. If it is 
        determined that these individuals pose a serious threat to 
        national security or public safety, they may be denied 
        admission, detained, removed, or turned over to another agency 
        for prosecution as appropriate.

    All of this could have been discussed with a classified 
briefing, but that is not the path that the majority chose 
because they are not interested in the facts. As is my refrain 
every single time we have these hearings, if the majority was 
at all serious about addressing immigration in America, they 
would be working with us to pass bipartisan immigration reforms 
that would finally update our outdated immigration system so 
that we have real legal pathways for people to enter the United 
States, to be with their families, to escape terrible 
situations in their countries, and to contribute to our 
economy, our communities, and our country. That is what would 
decrease the number of people coming to the Southern border. 
That is what would allow Border Patrol agents to focus on true 
security threats. That is what would allow more people to go 
through detailed vetting before ever coming to the United 
States. That is how we can improve our national security.
    Instead, some Republicans have openly said that they want 
to defund the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI. Last 
year, almost every one of them voted against the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Bill which provided additional funding to ports 
of entry for nonintrusive inspections to combat smuggling of 
people and drugs, modernization, and additional staffing. 
Unfortunately, we have another hearing today that prioritizes 
cheap political points and outrage over action. So, let the 
show begin.
    Mr. McClintock. Just to correct the record, we did request 
a classified briefing from DHS and the FBI on this subject and 
they said the earliest they could get to it was September 29th 
and we look forward to them meeting that request.
    I see that the Chair of the Full Judiciary Committee is 
here and I would recognize him for five minutes for an opening 
statement.
    Mr. Nadler. Well, thank you for elevating me to Chair 
again. I hope that is true next year.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair. On Monday, we commemorated the 22nd 
Anniversary of the horrific attacks on September 11th. None of 
us will ever forget the terror of that day or the bravery of 
the first responders who rushed toward danger to save countless 
lives. To so many people, the wounds from 9/11 still feel 
fresh. The grief and pain is ever present.
    Among the many ways that our lives changed after the events 
of that terrible day, September 11th served as the catalyst for 
a sea change in our immigration system. The 19 hijackers who 
carried out the attack came to this country legally on visas. 
In response to the intelligence failures that allowed them to 
enter, plan, and execute the attacks, we created the Department 
of Homeland Security. This led to massive increases in funding, 
vetting, and enforcement within the immigration system. As a 
result, immigration became inextricably linked with national 
security.
    While in many ways we are safer today, there are also many 
problematic aspects to this approach, not the least of which is 
that asylum seekers are too often treated like criminals by our 
government. However, one thing is certain, the Federal 
Government is deeply focused on keeping Americans safe from 
threats domestic and foreign and attacks by foreign-born 
terrorists on U.S. soil since 9/11 are vanishingly rare. I am 
sure that my Republican colleagues will do their best to scare 
people into believing that the next 9/11 is just around the 
corner. This time, they will claim, it will be planned by 
someone who snuck over the Southwest border. The fact remains 
that there has never been a successful attack planned by 
someone who illegally crossed our Southwest border.
    Even the cherry-picked examples that we will likely hear 
about today tell a story about the rigorous vetting done by DHS 
and our intelligence agencies to keep us safe. For example, 
much has been made about recent reports that asylum seekers 
from Uzbekistan were aided by a smuggler with ISIS sympathies. 
What we know about those alleged ties is precisely because of 
investigative work done by intelligence agencies in 
coordination with immigration enforcement agencies working 
together, as they should, in a case like this.
    The FBI is continuing to identify and vet this group of 
individuals even after the National Security Council stated 
publicly that there is no indication that any of the people who 
actually entered the U.S. have any connection to a foreign-
terrorist network.
    Of course, we won't learn anything new about these migrants 
today. That is because this slap-dash hearing was pulled 
together to make headlines, not progress. As has become 
commonplace in this Subcommittee, there are no government 
witnesses today, no one who can provide a thorough accounting 
of what the government is currently doing to address potential 
threats. Yet, DI and DHS have offered to provide Members of the 
classified briefing about this incident, but the classified 
briefing doesn't get anyone a spot on Fox News.
    So, here we are, about to commence yet another hearing to 
demonstrate just how unserious my colleagues are about fixing 
the problems plaguing our immigration system. If they wanted to 
improve things, they would have joined the Democrats when we 
appropriated hundreds of millions of dollars to provide new 
technology inspection systems and CBP offices to the border in 
last year's omnibus spending bill. Not a single Republican 
Member of this Committee voted in favor of that bill.
    Now, many of them want to defund DHS, DOJ, and the FBI or 
else they will shut down the government. These extreme MAGA 
priorities are dead wrong, and the American people are 
watching.
    I thank the witnesses for appearing in front of us today 
and I yield back the balance of my time.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back. The Chair 
recognizes the arrival of the Chair of the House Judiciary 
Committee. Mr. Jordan is recognized for an opening statement.
    Chair Jordan. Well, I will be brief. I thank you, Mr. 
Chair. Thank you for doing this hearing. I just wanted to 
respond to the Ranking Member of the Full Committee's statement 
that no one from the government is here to give us answers. We 
have been asking for answers from those guys for I don't know 
how long. We wrote to Secretary Mayorkas before he came in 
front of this Committee seven weeks ago. We wrote to him the 
week before saying, hey, here are questions we want you to be 
prepared to answer. This is like the professor telling you hey, 
these are the questions I am going to ask you on the exam. He 
came to the Committee and wouldn't answer the questions.
    We asked him multiple--we asked him a question, not even on 
the terrorist issue. We asked him a simple question. We said 
how many of the over two million people who have been accounted 
on the border, how many of them have been adjudicated and when 
removed from the country? He wouldn't answer the question. Mr. 
Gaetz asked him. Mr. Roy asked him. I asked him a couple of 
times. Finally, I said is the number greater than zero? He 
would agree to that, but he wouldn't tell us the number.
    We then followed up with a letter to him. What's the 
answer? Still no response. So, the idea that we don't want 
answers and someone from the government can give them to us is 
baloney. We have tried and tried and tried. That is why we are 
probably going to have to do some compulsory resources to get 
some--try to get some answers for the American people. 
Appreciated the leadership of the Subcommittee Chair on so many 
important issues that have been in front of this Committee and 
I would yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Thanks. Without objection, all other 
opening statements will be included in the record, and I will 
now introduce today's witnesses.
    Our first witness will be Mr. Todd Bensman. Mr. Bensman is 
the Texas-based Senior National Security Fellow for the Center 
for Immigration Studies. Prior to that, he led counterterrorism 
intelligence for the Texas Department of Public Safety's 
Intelligence and Counterterrorism Division. He has written 
about and routinely reports on the U.S. border crisis. Mr. 
Bensman holds an MA in Security Studies from the Navy Post-
Graduate School, Center for Homeland Defense and Security, and 
an undergraduate degree in Journalism from Northern Arizona 
University.
    Our second witness will be Mr. Charles Marino. Mr. Marino 
is a national security expert who served as Senior Law 
Enforcement Advisor to DHS Secretary Janet Napolitano from 
2009-2011. He was a career Secret Service officer during three 
different administrations. He is a graduate of the National War 
College in which he received an MS in National Security 
Strategy and is currently Adjunct Professor at the University 
of South Carolina.
    The minority, of course, gets to choose a witness. They did 
not choose any administration officials, but we have with us 
today at their invitation Mr. Alex Nowrasteh, do I have that 
right?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Nowrasteh.
    Mr. McClintock. Nowrasteh. Thank you.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Thank you for asking.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Nowrasteh is the Vice President for 
Economic and Social Policy Studies at Cato Institute. He has 
written on the economic impacts of immigration on the economy. 
Mr. Nowrasteh received a BA in Economics from George Mason 
University and an MS in Economic History from the London School 
of Economics.
    Then, finally, returning to the Subcommittee is Chief 
Rodney Scott who served 29 years in the United States Border 
Patrol before retiring as Chief of the Border Patrol in August 
2021. During that time, he held numerous leadership positions 
at various stations and sectors along the Southwest border, as 
well as several leadership and specialized assignments at U.S. 
Customs and Border Protection Headquarters.
    I want to welcome all our witnesses and thank them for 
appearing today. I will begin by swearing you in. Will you 
please rise and raise your right hand?
    Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the 
testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best 
of your knowledge, information, and belief so help you God?
    Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in 
the affirmative. Thank you. Please be seated.
    Please know that your written testimony will be entered 
into the record in its entirety, so accordingly, we will ask 
you to summarize your testimony in five minutes.
    Mr. Bensman, we will begin with you.

                   STATEMENT OF TODD BENSMAN

    Mr. Bensman. Thank you for holding this hearing about the 
national security consequence of the worst mass migration 
crisis ever to have stricken America. The consequence of this 
threat is the threat of terrorist entry over that border and 
evidence demonstrates the mass migration crisis has elevated 
that threat as I will explain.
    After 9/11, DHS developed border counterterrorism programs 
that did prevent terrorist infiltration into the United States, 
a threat by the way that the 9/11 Commission expressly warned 
about. Programs established in 2004, perhaps aided by sure 
luck, have thwarted numerous border crossers for 20 years as I 
documented in my book ``America's Covert Border War.''
    The sole illegal entrant who has carried out an attack 
since
9/11 was a Somali who sympathized with ISIS and crossed 
illegally at San Ysidro and was released and went on later to 
strike Edmonton, Alberta, and Canada in 2017. The ongoing 
border crisis has rendered those counterterrorism programs 
unviable now. One of the most impactful of those systems 
directed Border Patrol agents to tag migrants as special 
interest aliens if they hailed from listed countries where 
terrorist groups operated. ICE would detain special interest 
aliens until Federal agents could interview and debrief them as 
part of enhanced security investigations. Derogatory results 
led to many deportations which kept Americans safe.
    A recent CNN report, however, revealed just the latest 
evidence that this interview program has broken down. DHS went 
into red alert after discovering a human smuggler tied to ISIS 
had brought at least a dozen Uzbekistani special interest 
aliens over the border. They were all quickly freed into the 
interior like most other illegal immigrants of late without 
being interviewed. We know this because CNN also reported that 
U.S. authorities mounted a nationwide manhunt for the 
Uzbekistanis so that they now could conduct the interviews.
    This episode is only the latest revealing failures in our 
border screening systems. If you won't believe me, review the 
July report of DHS's Office of Inspector General which detailed 
how Yuma Sector Border Patrol agents accidentally freed a 
Colombian national on the terror watch list. Authorities found 
the man in Tampa two long weeks after he was accidentally 
released. Why did this happen? The IG blamed the mass migration 
chaos for the alien's release. Yuma agents let him go because 
they, and I quote:

        We're busy processing an increased flow of migrants. Because 
        the increase in Yuma apprehensions had created pressures to 
        quickly process migrants and decrease the time available to 
        review each file.

    Expect those screening programs to be degraded indefinitely 
because vast numbers of special interest aliens are currently 
pouring through the Darien Gap between Colombia and Panama. 
Usually, 10,000 migrants or less pass through the Gap. In 2023, 
however, 300,000 plus have gone through the Gap, and whereas 
only 3,000 or 4,000 special interest aliens among them reached 
our Southern border annually, The Daily Caller just reported 
that 75,000 came in just the last nine months.
    DHS cannot possibly vet or even interview a fraction of 
these numbers, raising the terrorism risk. Whereas about 20 
aliens on the Terror Watch List were caught at the Southwest 
border in prior years, since this crisis began in 2021 through 
the end of July, Border Patrol apprehended an almost 
implausibly large number of them, 258 as of now. Those Watch 
List at 258 are just the ones Border Patrol managed to catch. 
Border Patrol failed to apprehend a record-breaking 1.8 million 
migrants who slipped into the interior.
    Mass migration related system failure is indicated in 
Mexico, too. In July 2021, Mexico released a Watch List of 
Yemeni to clear their overcrowded detention centers and that 
set off another manhunt. I don't know if he was ever found.
    The case of a Lebanese Venezuelan who cross from Matamoros 
to Brownsville in December 2021, who was flagged on the FBI 
Watch List, is another one. Against FBI recommendations to hold 
the Venezuelan, ICE ordered his release on grounds that he 
might catch COVID. Last I heard, he was in Detroit pursuing an 
asylum claim. These incidents above and others described in my 
written testimony reveal the system is blinking red, so fingers 
crossed.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Bensman follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you for your testimony.
    We will next hear from Mr. Marino.

                  STATEMENT OF CHARLES MARINO

    Mr. Marino. Thank you, Chair McClintock, Ranking Member 
Jayapal, and Members of the Committee. Thank you for the 
opportunity to appear today to testify about this important 
topic.
    On the heels of the 22nd Anniversary of the horrific 
attacks against this country on September 11, 2001, we are all 
reminded of the sacred responsibility that the U.S. Government 
has to safeguard the homeland by creating and implementing 
effective policies to prevent another such act of terrorism. It 
is in this spirit that I served within the Department of 
Homeland Security to help protect this country for two decades 
under both parties and continue my work in national security 
today as an Adjunct Professor at the University of South 
Carolina where I teach future generations the important process 
of developing comprehensive national security strategies.
    While the current volume of threats against the United 
States are undoubtedly robust in number, they are also more 
diverse and originate from more places than at any time in our 
history. While the threat environment is constantly evolving, 
what must remain consistent is the indisputable need for both 
border security and immigration enforcement as essential 
strategic elements necessary to prevent bad actors from 
entering the country in the effort to best secure the homeland 
and ensure the sovereignty of the United States. This is most 
certainly not happening now.
    So, it is disappointing that I appear before you today to 
State the obvious. The border and immigration policies of the 
Biden Administration have made the country less safe since 9/11 
by directly undercutting the very purpose for creating the 
Department of Homeland Security under the 2002 Homeland 
Security Act and by further subverting the statutory 
responsibilities of the Border Patrol, ICE, and practically 
every other agency has with protecting the homeland.
    After the U.S. Government was criticized for a failure of 
imagination by the 9/11 Commission, our government promised all 
Americans that never again, never again would the country fall 
victim to future terrorist attacks on its soil. Despite that 
promise, it is blatantly obvious that the Biden Administration 
is suffering from the same failure of imagination that took 
place then and foolishly under estimating how easily our 
adversaries, including terrorist groups, can and will exploit 
our open borders with the help of the Mexican cartels to kill 
innocent Americans. We must do something before it is too late.
    We are all aware of the catastrophic amount of fentanyl 
entering our country killing approximately 70,000 Americans per 
year and the unprecedented level of human trafficking, modern-
day slavery, as well as the unsustainable influx of 
undocumented migrants that fleece Americans of their resources 
without paying back into the system. We must also start paying 
attention to the imminent terrorist threat that the cartels and 
others pose to the country. After all, if the cartels will work 
with China to kill thousands of Americans via fentanyl, 
shouldn't we assume that they would also work with other 
adversaries and terrorists for the right price to facilitate 
illegal entry into the country? If anyone is not thinking this 
way, let me respectfully suggest they start immediately.
    With almost 200 migrants on the Terror Watch List which 
have been apprehended while trying to sneak across the border, 
the natural question is so how many on that list have made it 
in?
    Recently, more than a dozen Uzbekistan nationals smuggled 
in by a suspect with connections to ISIS were released into the 
United States with some missing, just as many of those from the 
Afghanistan withdrawal debacle who were ushered on to our soil 
without thorough vetting. While I was in my role at DHS, these 
types of situations were always on top of our minds and would 
have been cause for alarm. It is time to allow law enforcement 
to do their jobs and reestablish deterrence through 
enforcement. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Marino follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you for your testimony.
    Next, we will hear from Mr. Nowrasteh.

                  STATEMENT OF ALEX NOWRASTEH

    Mr. Nowrasteh. Chair McClintock, Ranking Member Jayapal, 
and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for 
the opportunity to testify.
    Over many decades, the Cato Institute has produced original 
research on immigration and sober evaluations of the realistic 
threat of foreign-born terrorism. Terrorism is a serious topic, 
so serious that we should focus laser-like on data and facts. 
We cannot let ourselves be distracted by fiction or 
speculation. This focus on data and facts requires looking at 
the past, which is the source, of course, of all data about 
terrorism.
    The title of this hearing is ``Terrorist Entry Through the 
Southwest Border.'' When I first heard that was the title, my 
reaction was, what terrorist entry through the Southwest 
border?
    Zero people have been murdered in attacks committed by 
terrorists who entered as illegal immigrants. Zero people have 
been murdered--injured in attacks committed by terrorists who 
entered illegally. Zero attacks have been carried out by 
immigrants who entered illegally.
    Now, nine terrorists have entered the United States 
illegally since 1975. Five of them illegally crossed the U.S.-
Canada border; one was a stowaway on a ship, and three of them, 
Dritan Duka, Eljvir Duka, and Shain Duka, entered illegally 
through the U.S.-Mexico border in 1984. At the time of entry, 
Dritan Duka was five years old; Eljvir Duka was three years 
old, and Shain Duka was one year old. In 2007, they were 
convicted as part of the Fort Dix plot, which was broken up by 
law enforcement during the planning stage.
    Zero asylum seekers who became terrorists entered through 
the U.S.-Mexico border. Thirteen terrorists have entered as 
asylum seekers and they are responsible for nine murders and 
about 669 injuries and attacks on U.S. soil since 1975, but 
none of them crossed the Southwest border.
    There have been zero attacks by illegal border crossers who 
were flagged by the Terrorism Screening Data base, also called 
the Watchlist. Federal prosecutors have not filed charges 
related to a terrorist plot on U.S. soil against anyone who 
entered between a port of entry and who was flagged by the 
Watchlist.
    Almost all individuals listed in the Watchlist are not 
terrorists. Data released by the Washington Examiner showed 
that 25 out of the 27 Watchlist hits encountered by Border 
Patrol in the first months of 2022 were citizens of Colombia. 
If they were even members of a foreign terrorist organization, 
they are likely members or former members of the Revolutionary 
Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), FARC offshoots, or other 
insurgents in Colombia. There has never been a terrorist attack 
committed on U.S. soil by these Colombian foreign terrorist 
organizations. There is no publicly available evidence that 
they have ever intended to target the U.S. homeland in a 
terrorist attack, and no foreign-born person from Colombia has 
ever committed, planned, attempted, or been convicted of 
attempting to commit terrorism on U.S. soil.
    Special Interest Aliens, or SIAs, are a supposed terrorism 
concern along the U.S.-Mexico border. DHS has a fancy 
definition of SIA, but the reality is that the SIA designation 
is a label for illegal immigrants from a country that could 
have terrorists, and nothing more. SIA is not a meaningful 
metric to understand the threat of terrorism along the border 
or anywhere else.
    Although terrorists who cross the U.S.-Mexico border have 
never murdered or injured anyone in a terrorist attack on U.S. 
soil, there is, of course, a chance that a foreign-born 
terrorist could cross the U.S.-Mexico border and commit an 
attack at some point in the future. It's got to be above zero.
    A way to reduce that threat is to vastly expand the legal 
immigration to diminish the numbers of illegal immigrants down 
to very low levels. Such a liberalization and deregulation of 
immigration would allow Border Patrol Agents to focus their 
efforts more fully on deterring security threats, instead of 
trying to centrally plan international labor markets.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Nowrasteh follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you for your testimony.
    Finally, we hear from Chief Rodney Scott. Chief Scott?

                STATEMENT OF CHIEF RODNEY SCOTT

    Chief Scott. Chair, Ranking Member, Members of the 
Subcommittee, good morning.
    I would like to share with you three critical facts that I 
learned while serving as a Border Patrol Agent.
    The most critical fact is that border security is national 
security. It's not a political talking point. It's a fact.
    Over my career, I was honored to participate in the 
transition from an uncontrolled, chaotic Southwest border to a 
border that was, arguably, more secure than ever. 
Unfortunately, I also witnessed the rapid and systematic 
destruction of decades of improving border security in just the 
first few weeks of the Biden Administration. To be blunt, the 
systematic destruction of border security and the predictable 
consequences scare the hell out of me, and they should scare 
you, too.
    As a young, frontline agent, I routinely observed smugglers 
coordinate distractions to get illegal aliens past the Border 
Patrol. A common distraction was as simple as a couple of very 
fast, teenaged males making a highly visible illegal entry, and 
as agents shifted to chase that bait, the real group of illegal 
aliens would rush across the border through the gap that was 
created.
    This same tactic was used by drug smugglers. Agents would 
respond to a group of illegal aliens or a vehicle illegally 
entering, and as soon as they responded, a more significant 
load of narcotics would come through just out of their reach.
    Mexican drug cartels over my career have increasingly 
asserted control over all crossings between the ports of entry. 
Their sophisticated tactics and techniques continually improve, 
but the basic concept remains the same: Create a distraction 
too good for agents to ignore, and then, exploit the gap that 
it has created.
    Any alien with something to hide will routinely pay to 
evade law enforcement, to be in that second wave. That's the 
second critical fact, that the most serious threats to America 
are more commonly in that second wave.
    People don't understand that U.S. law enforcement records 
checks/searches U.S. data bases. Crimes committed by a foreign 
national outside the U.S. rarely appear in these data bases. 
That's the third critical fact, that records checks are just a 
tool to support a meaningful interview.
    Earlier this week, America paused to remember 9/11 
terrorist attacks. The 9/11 attack had a profound impact on my 
understanding of border security. In the years following, I was 
honored to represent Customs and Border Protection on several 
interagency teams, and we were tasked with improving America's 
antiterrorism capabilities.
    Then, we knew that terrorist organizations were going to 
increasingly seek to use operatives that were unknown. We could 
not rely solely on records checks.
    CBP improved situational awareness through intelligence and 
expanded capabilities of officers and agents, so that they 
could solicit information and determine intent through 
effective interviews. Additionally, Border Patrol improved 
surveillance and doubled down on deterring illegal immigration, 
and it was working.
    Fewer illegal entries and an expanding smart wall system 
bought agents more time. With more time to invest in 
interviews, the benefits cascaded quickly. The agents were able 
to identify imposters, fraudulent families, gang members, 
various criminals, and even potential terrorist ties that 
records checks had not revealed.
    In contrast, every single border security and immigration 
action that the Biden Administration has taken has resulted in 
an increase in illegal immigration, overwhelming CBP 
capabilities, and surrendering control of our Southwest border 
to the cartels. Every illegal alien released into the United 
States is free advertisement for the cartel and ensures an 
endless wave of customers to overwhelm agents.
    Of great concern is the increasing number of Border Patrol 
encounters with illegal aliens on the National Watchlist. From 
2017-2020, Border Patrol encountered 14 illegal aliens on that 
Watchlist. From 2021-2023, that number jumped to 263--with 149 
of these being in just this year alone. This is a serious 
national security threat, but it only represents the known. 
What threats were in the 1.7 million known got-aways? What 
about the unknown got-aways?
    Compounding this threat, overwhelmed officers and agents no 
longer have time to conduct meaningful interviews. The Border 
Patrol is overwhelmed with illegal aliens from several 
countries that are known to be affiliated with terrorism, but 
those agents cannot get timely language translation support to 
conduct the most basic processing, let alone a meaningful 
interview.
    This continues even after the discovery of the ISIS-
associated smuggler that helped the Uzbekistanis enter the U.S. 
illegally. The release of those Uzbekistanis demonstrates the 
vulnerability of overlying on data systems for our national 
security.
    The key to effective law enforcement and border security 
will always be face-to-face interviews. The ongoing mass of 
illegal immigration is a threat to our national security. 
Didn't we all promise after the 9/11 to never forget?
    I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Chief Scott follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. McClintock. I want to thank you and all the witnesses 
for their testimony.
    We will now proceed under the five-minute rule with 
questions, and we will begin with Mr. Biggs.
    Mr. Biggs. Thanks, Mr. Chair.
    It is good to see that we are having this hearing.
    So, this notion that being concerned about terrorists 
entering through the Southwest border, which is absolutely 
open, that somehow is ``fiction or speculation'' is probably 
one of the most asinine pieces of testimony I have heard in 
Congress. It's astounding. I found myself saying, have you 
never been to the border? Have you seen what's going on at the 
border? Do you know what's going on at the border?
    I go down often, really often, and I look at data 
constantly. The biggest piece of data that you have ignored is 
the 1.7 million known got-aways. Those are known got-aways. The 
unknown got-aways probably match it one-for-one minimum.
    Have you ever stood in a group of individuals, as I have, 
and you say, ``Where are you from?'' ``Russia.'' ``Oh, 
really?'' There's 40 of you. You're all about 25 years old. 
Then, we bring a translator in, and all of a sudden, they don't 
speak Russian. They say they're from Georgia. We bring a 
different translator in. They say, ``Oh, well, yes, we really 
are Russian.''
    The number of people coming across that we can't even vet 
through the process when we encounter them, or through CBP One, 
where we're sending them to the ports of entry. I find it 
astounding that anybody would--this is the problem. This is the 
problem: We've got people that just say--they're the ones that 
are engaged in ``fiction and speculation.'' Actually, it's not 
``fiction and speculation.'' It's a great big dream, and it's a 
hope and a wish, because it's going to be people like you who 
get to say, ``Yes, we were wrong,'' when a terrorist does 
engage in activity in the homeland.
    I'm astounded, flabbergasted by that testimony. I've heard 
a lot of weird testimony in here since I've been here.
    Chief Scott, tell us a little bit about this notion--so, we 
were also told that, if somebody's on the Terrorist Watchlist, 
it's no big deal. Right, it's really no big deal because they 
haven't committed an act of terrorism. Why do we have a 
Terrorism Watchlist and why is that important and relevant?
    Chief Scott. It's important and relevant because our 
intelligence agencies and law enforcement are always looking to 
put Border Patrol, to put law enforcement in general, in a 
better position to keep America safe. So, any kind of 
derogatory information, links to terrorism--and obviously, 
there's other agencies that could testify to this more--are 
looked at. People that meet certain criteria, there's 
reasonable suspicion to believe that they're tied to these 
threats to America, are put on that list. By the way, that's 
only, again, the knowns.
    Mr. Biggs. Right. So, we get to this point: Are there 
Nations in the world that we have no information whatsoever 
about? We can't get any background on these people, even if we 
do encounter them, and actually have a chance--which we don't 
really have very often--to interview them.
    Chief Scott. That would be the vast majority of the globe.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes.
    Chief Scott. We have very little information. We act on 
what we have. When you think about the total population of the 
world, we have very, very minuscule data on anyone.
    Mr. Biggs. How about with Mauritania?
    Chief Scott. I'm sorry?
    Mr. Biggs. How about with the country of Mauritania?
    Chief Scott. No.
    Mr. Biggs. Yes. So, the reason I say that is because we're 
now starting to see groups of Mauritanians come in through 
Arizona.
    I got a call from a CBP agent last week. I said, ``What's 
going on?'' and he said, ``A group of 250 Mauritanians.'' I 
said, ``Well, how are we doing there? Do we have any way to vet 
them?'' He replied, ``No, no way to vet them.''
    Mr. Bensman, you get down to the border often; I know that. 
Tell us about the Darien Gap. Is any vetting going on there 
before they move on from the Darien Gap up through the Northern 
Triangle states on up to the U.S.?
    Mr. Bensman. In the Darien Gap right now, there must be, 
you know, 50,000 pouring through. Michael Yon and some other 
reporters are there right now sending us video. It's 
unbelievable what's happening, the numbers coming through.
    In normal times, when it's 10,000 or less, American and 
Panamanian officials have a biometric program where they try to 
fingerprint and photograph, and take some collection on almost 
everybody that crosses through there. Impossible to do that 
right now--impossible. The numbers are just flabbergasting, 
huge. We can't collect a bit.
    Mr. Biggs. So, as we go here and I close here, Cato's 
position is for an open border. It supports an open border. 
This is what an open border looks like.
    I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Ms. Jayapal?
    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    As I said earlier, I and everyone on this panel want to 
keep Americans safe from real security threats. That's why I'm 
disappointed that we didn't wait just the two-weeks that we 
know we have, so that we can get an actual classified briefing 
from the Department of Homeland Security and the FBI.
    Having a hearing where the Republican majority tries to 
scare the public and demonize immigrants is not how we're going 
to make America safer. It's only going to serve to further 
divide us and prevent us from working together to find common-
sense, bipartisan solutions that improve our national security.
    One way to do that is to expand legal pathways for people 
who come to the United States lawfully. Unfortunately, the 
Trump Administration decimated our refugee and legal 
immigration systems, increasing migration from all over the 
world to the Southern border.
    The Biden Administration has worked hard to rebuild the 
refugee program and has tried to expand legal pathways using 
parolee, but only Congress can provide permanent solutions.
    So, Mr. Nowrasteh, let me turn to you. Congress has not 
expanded the number of legal immigrants that we accept in over 
30 years. You mentioned in your testimony that the expansion of 
legal pathways would help improve our national security. Can 
you describe how that is so?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes. Expanding legal pathways will vastly 
improve security. Being able to vet immigrants before they 
arrive would absolutely increase domestic security and further 
discourage terrorists or other bad actors from even trying to 
come to the United States in the first place.
    Many people who come here unlawfully today would love to 
come through a legal system, where they can work lawfully. By 
expanding legal opportunities, it will drive the vast majority 
of them into the legal system, and then, that will allow Border 
Patrol and these other agencies to focus on a small number who 
remain.
    Ms. Jayapal. You mentioned in your written statement some 
examples of how the Biden Administration has used parole to 
expand lawful pathways. Can you discuss some of those examples 
here in more detail and how they actually contributed to 
decreased numbers at the Southern border?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes. We know for a fact that expanding legal 
immigration works because of recent experiences with parole. 
Specifically, parole allows Americans to sponsor, at least in 
these cases, to sponsor foreigners from specific countries that 
come to the U.S. to work and live for a period of time. There's 
the Uniting for Ukraine example, which was implemented in May 
2022. It reduced the total number of Ukrainians showing up at 
the U.S.-Mexico border by 99.9 percent from April 2022-July 
2023.
    Then, there are similar parole programs that the 
administration put in effect for people fleeing Venezuela, 
Cuba, Nicaragua, and Haiti, that also reduced illegal entries. 
So, for example, Venezuelan illegal entries fell 66 percent 
from September 2022, the month before the program was put into 
effect, to July 2023. Then, from December 2022-July 2023, 
illegal entries from Haiti fell 77 percent; 98 percent from 
Cuba, and 99 percent from Nicaragua.
    Parole is a great, short-term, stop-gap measure. It has 
proven, empirically, once and for all, that increasing legal 
pathways reduces illegal immigration, increases border 
security. Immigration liberalization, though, is the only 
sustainable, long-term fix to border chaos.
    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you.
    One of the other places that the President can act 
unilaterally is by increasing the number of refugees that the 
administration accepts. I'm happy to see that the Biden 
Administration is on pace to welcome the highest number of 
refugees since 2016.
    Very briefly--because I have one other question for you 
that I want to get to--what are some additional ways that the 
Biden Administration can expand and grow the refugee program?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes. So, the Welcome Corps is a great 
opportunity for Americans to sponsor folks, modeled on the 
Canadian system. We worked on that at Cato.
    I think the easiest, No. 1 way to do is for him to expand 
parole to other countries--for Guatemalans, Hondurans, 
Salvadorans, Colombians, and others fleeing dangerous, 
despotic, socialist, poor, or cruel regimes, and to allow 
Americans to sponsor folks and to increase the cap for the 
Cubans, Haitians, Nicaraguans, and Venezuelans (CHNV) 
countries. I think they should be numerically uncapped. They 
should only be capped by the generosity and willingness of 
Americans to sponsor people.
    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you.
    Last, I know you've studied the nexus of tourism and 
immigration quite extensively, and your testimony is very 
different from some of the people that are sitting right next 
to you. Why do you have such different perspectives?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. I think it comes from our different 
approaches to studying topics in general. I like to look at the 
data. I like to zoom out to take a look at the big picture, to 
take a look at the actual risk; to use normal analysis, risk 
analysis, used by the government in other areas, by insurance 
companies, by others, to look at that; to read through some of 
this other research out there. A lot of it is anecdote-driven. 
We need to be data-driven. Terrorism is too important to ignore 
the data.
    Ms. Jayapal. Data-driven. Thank you so much.
    I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    The Chair recognizes Mr. Tiffany for five minutes.
    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. N--if I may address you that way--do you believe in the 
rule of law?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. OK. So, parole is a very specific concept in 
the law here in the United States of America that is supposed 
to be done on a case-by-case basis. That has been wiped out by 
fiat without passing a law to change the law that enabled 
parole back in 1954. They have been breaking the law.
    Eighty thousand Afghans came in, all waived in via--
virtually all waived in via parole. So, in other words, the 
reason illegal entries, as you've been saying, have been going 
down; it's because they've ignored the law. So, you want us to 
be a lawless country, is what we're hearing from you.
    By the way, from the other side, that fearmongering 
conservative who has been talking about this regularly is Mayor 
Adams from New York City; that ``his city is being 
destroyed''--his quote, not mine.
    The Ranking Member talks about no government witness that 
we've heard from. Oh, yes, we have. We heard from Mayorkas back 
in July. We heard from the FBI two weeks prior to that, from 
Mr. Wray. We heard from Sheriff Mark Dannels from Arizona. 
Let's share a couple of quotes.
    FBI Director Wray, ``We are seeing all sorts of very 
serious threats that come from across the border.'' He closed 
by saying, ``It is becoming more and more of a priority for 
us.''
    Sheriff Mark Dannels, in regard to fentanyl, ``The border's 
not effectively managed right now, and until it is, the 
cartels, they are the winner in this.''
    I asked Secretary Mayorkas about that. ``Who's telling the 
truth, FBI Director Wray or you?'' He wouldn't answer the 
question.
    I asked him, ``Who's telling the truth, Sheriff Mark 
Dannels, who is seeing the fentanyl flowing in since January 
20, 2021 in numbers that have skyrocketed?'' Secretary Mayorkas 
says, ``Nah, there's not a problem here.'' I asked, ``Who's 
telling the truth?'' He wouldn't answer the question.
    It's this whole approach that we're hearing--there's 
nothing to see. For those of you of a certain age like me, 
you'll recognize it as the Sergeant Schultz approach: ``I see 
nothing.''
    For those of you that are a little bit younger than I, 
you'll recognize it as the Harry Potter story with the Ministry 
of Magic.
    Mr. Marino, it is said that we have done nothing here. The 
House of Representatives passed H.R. 2. ``We have not proposed 
solutions.'' Is H.R. 2 a solution to the border crisis that we 
have?
    Mr. Marino. Yes, it is. It restores a layered approach 
overall to border security and immigration enforcement. It 
restores law and order.
    As I previously said, the major causation of this crisis 
has been the Biden Administration's abandonment of law and 
order, and we are seeing this perfect storm of poor policies at 
the Federal level to the local level--poor policies, abandoning 
law and order at the Federal level, and then, it's exploiting 
the poor policies of abandoning law and order in sanctuary 
cities. It's leading to chaos.
    The one thing that the Biden Administration has proven to 
us is that, when you remove all structure through law and 
order, it results in chaos.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Chair, I want to highlight here for the 
American public that may be watching at this point, this body 
has passed legislation to secure the border, to bring a 
solution forward.
    Mr. Bensman, I really appreciate that Representative Biggs 
brought up the Darien Gap. I was there a little over two years 
ago. There were lots of people coming through there at that 
point. The people in Bajo Chiquito, a little Indian village 
right on the edge of the Darien Gap, we're talking about being 
destabilized. I have a text from the last couple of days from 
someone who is down there, ``The scene is truly apocalyptic. 
Bajo Chiquito was completely overrun--thousands.'' They had 
about 500 when I was there that had rolled through that date, 
and they viewed it as destabilizing. Thousands now. Possibly 
more arriving every second.
    Is this destabilizing the country of Panama?
    Mr. Bensman. Actually, Panama has a policy in place called 
``controlled flow.'' So, they are moving all those migrants 
through into Costa Rica as fast as possible by bus, so that 
they do not destabilize the country. They've always done that. 
Costa Rica does the same thing.
    They, essentially, the governments are the smugglers in 
that case. They are moving them through rather quickly. 
However, the numbers that are passing through right now, I 
don't know and I don't think we've seen anything like this 
particular number right now that's happening--that's going 
through. It will certainly overwhelm the Panamanian and Costa 
Rican capacity to move them through like normal.
    Mr. Tiffany. So, they send them here?
    Mr. Bensman. They're all coming here.
    Mr. Tiffany. I yield.
    Mr. Bensman. Everyone's coming here.
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you. The gentleman's time has 
expired.
    Mr. Nadler?
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Speaker--Mr. Chair, rather.
    Since the mayor of my city was invoked, let me say that he 
is incorrect in saying that this is destroying the city. He is 
trying to get Federal aid because it's properly a Federal, not 
a city, expense. The fact is, the $12 billion figure he 
mentions is over four years, a $3 billion annual expense, which 
is three percent of the city's budget, which we can absorb--
with difficulty--although it's properly a Federal 
responsibility, which the mayor is pointing out.
    Mr. Nowrasteh, I want to discuss some of the terms that are 
being thrown around by the witnesses and my colleagues. We've 
heard a lot about migrants who are encountered who are on the 
Terrorist Screening Dataset, or the TSDS. Can you discuss this 
dataset in more detail? Who's on this list? Does it only 
include known or suspected terrorists?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. It does not only include known and suspected 
terrorists. There's a reasonable suspicion standard for being 
included in these, but there is an exception to this, based on 
a rational inference, which, as far as we can tell, is just 
when somebody says they should be on there, and they put them 
on there.
    This is true because 99 percent of people nominated to be 
on this list by other agencies, by other people in the 
government, are included there. There is no rigorous test or 
screening to put people on this list.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
    In your testimony, you mention that the TSDS includes many 
false positives. Can you explain what a false positive is and 
why they appear in the TSDS data base?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. So, it's, basically, an erroneous match, a 
mistaken identity. To be on this list, you have to have one 
biographical piece of information and that's it. So, a lot of 
people get caught up in this list, false flagged, because of 
that.
    We had a recent case of this with Alireza Heidari, an 
Iranian national arrested along the border. He was flagged on 
the Watchlist. There are a lot of scary news stories about this 
that came out very rapidly about this Iranian national who was 
on the Terrorist Watchlist, and then, whoops, it was the wrong 
guy.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
    During the Biden Administration, we've seen an increase in 
the number of people on the TSDS data base who have been 
apprehended along the Southwest border. While this is still 
less than one percent of all apprehensions, can you discuss 
some of the potential reasons for this increase over the last 
couple of years? For example, do migration patterns in the 
hemisphere, including increased migration from Colombia, have 
something to do with this increase of migrants on the TSDS 
apprehended on the Southwest border?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Not only is it very small, but it is 
minuscule, 0.0--oh, let me count the zeroes--0.007 percent of 
people apprehended by Border Patrol in 2023 so far have been on 
this Watchlist. I think that you hit on it directly, sir. 
Colombians explain a lot of this.
    I ran a regression analysis this morning about the number 
of Colombians coming to the border, and it's the best predictor 
of the number of hits on this Watchlist. The CBP does not 
release the nationalities of people who are on the Watchlist 
who come up as hits, but a great Washington Examiner piece that 
has some leaked data. So, the 25 out of 27 of those folks in 
the first half of 2022 were from Colombia. As I said in my 
written remarks, ``there's never been a terrorist attack by a 
Colombian. They don't target the U.S.''
    There's also a wrinkle in this data, which is, when you 
take a look at Border Patrol apprehensions that lead to these 
hits and those through Customs, the number has actually gone 
down since 2019.
    Mr. Nadler. OK. Thank you.
    I have a number of questions which I would like to answer 
quickly because we only have a minute.
    We've also recently heard the term ``Special Interest 
Aliens.'' Can you describe what a Special Interest Alien is?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes. DHS defines it as a non-U.S. person, 
based on analysis of their travel patterns--and, well, it's a 
long definition. A lot of other things are put on this list. A 
lot of words. In practice, an SIA is just somebody from a 
country that could have a lot of terrorists in it. It's not a 
meaningful metric.
    Mr. Nadler. Are Special Interest Aliens terrorists? Are 
they even suspected of terrorism?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. No, in fact. As DHS--
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
    According to one source--
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes?
    Mr. Nadler. --Border Patrol Agents encountered 25,000 
Special Interest Aliens in the Fiscal Year 2022. That's a lot 
of people. Has an SIA apprehended by the Border Patrol ever 
committed an attack on U.S. soil?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. No, and DHS explicitly says being an SIA 
does not mean that you are a terrorist.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
    My last question: Is it possible that the number of SIAs 
have increased in recent years because the decimation of our 
legal immigration and refugee systems have led people around 
the world to believe that the only way to immigrate to the 
United States is via the Southwest border?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Not only is it possible, I think it is 
extremely likely and the best explanation for why there has 
been an increase in illegal immigration and border crossers 
from around the world and from Central and South America.
    The U.S. immigration system is extremely restrictive. It is 
very difficult to come here. The idea that we have an open 
border is ludicrous. It is totally contrary to all the facts 
and to what's happening.
    If we have an open border, why are people paying $5-$20 
thousand to be smuggled here? In the U.S., Virginia and 
Maryland have an open border. I don't have to pay $20,000 to go 
from my home in Virginia to Maryland. Where is this open border 
that we keep hearing so much about?
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time--
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you very much. My time has expired. I 
yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Roy?
    Mr. Roy. Mr. Nowrasteh, prior to September 11, 2001, how 
many individuals had flown airplanes into the World Trade 
Center and killed 3,000 people?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Zero.
    Mr. Roy. Thank you.
    Mr. Scott, how many got-aways have there been?
    Chief Scott. There is 1.7 million known. That means there's 
evidence, video, whatever, but I can't give you an estimate on 
how many we don't know in the hundreds of miles of border that 
are not being patrolled.
    Mr. Roy. Mr. Nowrasteh, where are those 1.6 million got-
aways?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. They are most likely at different places in 
the United States working and living.
    Mr. Roy. Who are they, who are they?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Well, there are probably people from 
different countries around the world, sir.
    Mr. Roy. Probably, probably. People from all over the 
world.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Well, they are from different countries 
around the world, yes, sir.
    Mr. Roy. Right, yes. How many different countries?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Well, if the data that we have about those 
who are apprehended is any indication, a large number of 
countries. Probably about 150--
    Mr. Roy. A 162 of them from all over the world.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Probably, yes, sir.
    Mr. Roy. Right. You are willing to bet your family's life, 
my family's life on the safety in our country, irrespective of 
who these individuals are when you don't even know who they 
are?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, sir. The chance of dying from a 
foreign-born terrorist attack since 1975 is--
    Mr. Roy. I am sure, Mr. Nowrasteh--
    Mr. Nowrasteh. --one in 4.4 million per year.
    Mr. Roy. Mr. Nowrasteh, I am sure that is great comfort to 
the families of the people from 9/11. Because when you sit here 
and testify that zero people have committed a terrorist attack 
from crossing our border, I am sure that is comfort to the 
people who had terrorist attacks committed by people who came 
here and overstayed their visas.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. It is no comfort--
    Mr. Roy. The fact of the matter is when you talk about 
having an open border and you minimize the open border by 
saying that people have to pay $5,000 to come here in that open 
border, you're ignoring the fact of what that does to human 
beings. When it is in fact so open that that is exactly what is 
happening.
    I am sure that your position is great comfort to the man in 
Baltimore who was being held up for ransom for $23,000 so that 
his little girl wouldn't be raped in a stash house in Fort 
Worth. Have you talked to that little girl or that father?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Was he a terrorism suspect?
    Mr. Roy. Have you talked to that father, Mr. Nowrasteh?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. No, I am not aware of that terrorism case. 
What was his name?
    Mr. Roy. Have you talked to that father whose little girl 
was being raped in a stash house?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. No, I haven't. Is this a terrorism-related 
issue?
    Mr. Roy. Right, and so do you know--I am answering the 
questions, and this is the subject matter I want to talk about 
in this hearing, Mr. Nowrasteh. Because you are the one sitting 
here trying to tell the American people that our border is 
perfectly fine.
    That it is perfectly OK. That it is, oh, not open because 
people are paying five or ten thousand dollars to get here. So, 
it is very much relevant that a little girl is getting raped in 
a stash house because of the policies of you and radical 
leftists who don't give a damn about it.
    Because it is more politically expedient for you to saddle 
up to the libertarian Cato Institute or a bunch of radical 
leftists and talk about, oh, how important it is for people to 
free flow across borders.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. I have talked about the chaos repeatedly, 
sir--
    Mr. Roy. That is the truth.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. The way to reduce the chaos is through 
legalization and liberalization--
    Mr. Roy. Right.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Not cracking down more--
    Mr. Roy. Right. Which will--
    Mr. Nowrasteh. If you cared about the border chaos, that is 
the way to do it.
    Mr. Roy. Which will perpetuate the lawlessness, and you 
know it.
    Mr. Bensman.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. The exact opposite.
    Mr. Roy. Mr. Bensman, can you please expand on your 
testimony about dozens of terror watch list foreign nationals 
apprehended at the Southern border being members of the 
Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC), and how 
dangerous that is to this country?
    Mr. Bensman. Right. One of the most disturbing aspects of 
the border crisis has been the recent development of FARC-
related terror watchlisted suspects crossing that border. Those 
are people who have spent years and years involved in murder, 
kidnaping, drug trafficking, extortion, and bombings. They are 
experts in weaponry.
    These are people who the United States absolutely would 
never countenance coming across the border and never provide a 
visa for certainly. The fact that FARC members, former of the 
delisted faction, but also there are two FARC factions that are 
still listed, that those people would cross our border and come 
into this United States is anathema to all our homeland 
security values. A terrible development that we should pay a 
lot of attention to, because a lot of Colombians are coming 
across.
    It is true that so far, we haven't seen an attack. This is 
a relatively new thing for FARC. One thing that we have to 
worry about is that when FARC members cross into the United 
States successfully, they will embed themselves in Colombian 
emigre communities. Very probably begin intimidation tactics, 
vigilante justice.
    This is a terrible thing for Colombian communities inside 
the United States in general. Plus, these people are 
professional drug traffickers their whole lives, so we are 
going to be hearing a lot about FARC people over the next 
decade.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time--
    Mr. Roy. Yield back, thank you.
    Mr. Bensman. This is not a reason--
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Roy. Thank you, Mr. Bensman.
    Mr. McClintock. Next is Ms. Escobar.
    Ms. Escobar. I would like to thank Mr. Correa for yielding 
to me, switching with me. I want to thank our witnesses.
    This is actually an important opportunity for us as 
Congress-members to look at facts versus fiction for us to 
truly solve the issue at hand.
    I am the only a Member of this Subcommittee and the larger 
Committee on Judiciary who was born, raised, and lives on the 
border. I raised my two children on the border. I am a very 
proud border resident.
    There is nobody in the country who wants a safe, secure 
border more than those of us who have invested our lives living 
there, creating community there and wanting to make sure our 
kids can come back to living there.
    It is so important for us to realize and acknowledge this 
is not an issue related to President Biden. Honestly, every 
time I hear that, it undermines the credibility of the person 
telling me, because I live on the border, and I know for a fact 
because I went to facilities during President Trump's 
Administration that were overcrowded, and I saw the daily 
numbers at our shelters.
    The only time the numbers dropped was immediately after 
COVID and only for a few months. They went right back up in May 
2020, long before the November 2020 election, long before 
President Biden was elected, even longer before he was sworn 
in. So, we really, we do ourselves and the issue an injustice 
by politicizing it and blaming the President.
    Frankly, if there's anyone to blame for the challenges at 
our border, it is the U.S. Congress. The U.S. Congress has 
failed to reform immigration law for 37 years. I will tell you, 
it is absolutely ridiculous for either side to think that 1 
day, if we just wait long enough, we will get everything we 
want.
    That is not going to happen. The only solution is 
bipartisan compromise.
    I want to inform my colleagues on the other side of the 
aisle and on my side of the aisle, we have a bipartisan, 
comprehensive immigration reform compromise right now. It is a 
bill that I worked on a filed with my colleague Representative 
Maria Salazar, a Republican from Miami.
    It certainly is not a perfect bill. It is not everything I 
as a Democrat want. It is not everything Republicans want. It 
is the first bipartisan, comprehensive immigration reform bill 
that has been filed in the House of Representatives in a 
decade.
    Where I will agree with critics of the status quo, this is 
unsus-
tainable. In fact, I get daily reports about how many people 
are in our shelters in El Paso, how many people have been 
apprehended. I am consistently speaking with migrants, with law 
enforcement, and with NGO's.
    Congress has to do something. I would invite everyone to 
begin focusing on what we should be doing within the realm of 
what is real and achievable in Congress in this political 
environment, so that we can create not just safety and security 
for all, but those key legal pathways that are critical not 
just to better managing our border, but critical to us as a 
country.
    What is so distressing about hearings like this is that 
immigrants are intended to be demonized. Immigrants made this 
country great. Immigrants have built this country. We need 
immigrants to ensure that we have a sustainable economy. We 
should be embracing immigrants and fixing broken systems to 
help achieve real solutions.
    Thank you, Mr. Correa, and thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield 
back.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady yields back. Ms. Spartz.
    Ms. Spartz. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Nowrasteh, do you believe we should have unlimited 
immigration to our country?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Unlimited, no.
    Ms. Spartz. So, you believe that we need to limit number of 
immigrants.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, I especially believe security threats, 
people convicted or responsible for crime--
    Ms. Spartz. So, we should have some limits. Do you believe 
we should look at our immigration, how we can better serve our 
national interest?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Oh, yes, absolutely. Immigration to the 
U.S., legal immigration, absolutely does that.
    Ms. Spartz. So, we agree with you, in some issues. Do you 
believe that our system is overwhelmed right now, and it is 
extremely difficult to immigrate to this country legally?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. It is extremely difficult and restricted--
    Ms. Spartz. So, we have some agreement.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. It is like a Soviet-style system.
    Ms. Spartz. Good, that is we have some agreement. Do you 
believe that what is happening in the border and how 
overwhelmed the border, it exposes national security risks?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. There are absolutely risks that are posed by 
it. They are--
    Ms. Spartz. We have a problem over there. Do you believe 
the border needs to be secured?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, absolutely. The way to do that is by 
expanding I think legal immigration.
    Ms. Spartz. Well, that is part of it because we need to 
have a better look at that. Do we also need to make sure that 
we have proper border security, the proper mechanism to deal 
with border security, whichever tools we can do that? Do you 
believe it needs to be secure, a border?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Oh, yes, absolutely, we do need a secure 
border. We should have a secure border. We just have--there are 
different perspectives of how to get there.
    In the same way that Al Capone and a lot of organized crime 
was crushed by legalizing alcohol, I think that we can crush a 
lot of cartels and border crime and the chaos in the border, 
which is a travesty, the chaos is a travesty, do that by 
increasing legal immigration to the United States to reduce the 
black market.
    Ms. Spartz. We have to look, it might have some effects, it 
depends how it is. Ultimately, we are not right now created 
perverse incentive to human traffic, drug traffic, and child 
labor, what's happening right now in places like Darien Gap? Is 
that correct, what we are doing is bad?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. I would say that the immigration 
restrictions we have are an enormous subsidy to cartels and 
criminal organizations.
    Ms. Spartz. So, we don't have disagreement on that. Let's 
talk a little bit about; I have an agreement this problem being 
really pondered for many years and not just one President.
    Do you believe the President is not putting emphasis to 
help Border Patrol dealing with situation and not dealing right 
now where we have to overwhelm Border Patrol right now? It has 
magnified opportunities for cartels to take advantage of the 
situation.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. I think it is a perfect storm of many 
events. You have a very low unemployment in the United States 
attracting large numbers of people coming in. I think that you 
have a restrictive system that makes it difficult for a lot of 
people to come in.
    I think you have other security issues that have resulted 
in a lot of the overwhelming of the Border Patrol. There is a 
lot of chaos. Nobody disagrees about that.
    Ms. Spartz. Do you believe what my Democrat colleagues 
talking about comprehensive reform, it has to have a really 
significant conversation also over border security and how we 
can improve border security and be more innovative and make 
sure that we mitigate some of the risk and support our Border 
Patrol? Does that need to be part of it?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes, absolutely. I think the way, the best 
way to do that, the best way for Border Patrol and for the U.S. 
Government to regulate the flow of people into the United 
States is to legalize it. Because you can't regulate a black 
market.
    Ms. Spartz. We can have a debate about legal immigration, 
but we also should have a debate on how we can secure our 
border better, correct?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. I agree, but I think they are linked. I 
don't think you can do one without the other.
    Ms. Spartz. They are linked, and we should link. 
Unfortunately, we are kind of having this chicken-and-egg 
situation where one side says we need to--because it is not, it 
needs to be a comprehensive solution. Because this is not a 
joke situation of that border. It is a national security issue.
    It is a national security issue not just for border State, 
it is for all the States, whether New York or Indiana, and now 
we allow also, cartels in China to really becoming very 
material, drug trafficking and then fentanyl, and what is 
happening in the country. It is going to be a big problem.
    So, I hope you encourage your colleagues to look at the 
situation too and look at not just--because we never have that 
conversation. We do it in politicking. We have a very dangerous 
situation in the border. We have to acknowledge it as a 
country.
    I came here as a legal immigrant. This is country created 
by immigrants, but we need to have an orderly process. We 
cannot have anarchy; we are the country of law. Otherwise, we 
will become like third-world country with cartels running the 
country, and we cannot let it happen.
    So, I hope you will help me to talk to your colleagues. I 
yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady yields back, and Mr. Correa.
    Mr. Correa. Thank you, sir, for holding this hearing today.
    I am also a Member of Homeland Security. I am the Ranking 
Member of the Border Security Subcommittee. In Homeland we have 
probably had at least half a dozen hearings on this issue, Mr. 
Chair, and I welcome one in the Immigration Subcommittee. This 
is an important issue. National security is important for 
America. Democrats and Republicans for America.
    We should be talking immigration, but let's talk border 
security. I want to remind everybody that the most deadliest 
attack in American soil, 9/11, we just had that commemoration 
across the country to remember, was carried out by folks with 
visas. One came on a student visa and the rest came on tourist 
and business visas.
    I have visited the border a number of times, numerous 
times, and I have talked to the men and women in uniform. I 
have asked them, what is it that makes your job better? What 
can make you more successful? The answer is intel, working with 
good intelligence. Working with allies across the globe, 
Brazil, Mexico, the Middle East, that's what's helped you 
identify terrorists.
    In fact, if folks are interested in working with us, Chair 
Clay Higgins and I have a bill, H.R. 4575, that will enable us 
to work much closer with our allies across the globe to make 
sure we have better intel.
    When you talk about undocumented terrorism, I am going to 
make some--OK, let's talk about terrorism and undocumented. I 
can have this poster behind me. This is an undocumented 
soldier, an undocumented Marine. Does he look like a terrorist?
    Mr. Bensman, does that look like a terrorist to you? Mr. 
Nowrasteh, Mr. Marino, and Mr. Scott, is that a terrorist 
behind us?
    He made the ultimate sacrifice right after 9/11, and 
there's a lot more Dreamers in American uniform who will 
probably be undocumented after the Supreme Court rules on the 
status of Dreamers in the United States. I just want to make 
sure people understand terrorism versus immigration versus 
undocumented workers.
    Now, gentlemen, if I can, I want to ask each and every one 
of you, do you favor deporting ten million taxpaying 
undocumented workers from the U.S. right now?
    Mr. Scott, yes or no?
    Chief Scott. I believe in the rule of law--
    Mr. Correa. Do you--
    Chief Scott. If you oppose the law, you should be held 
accountable.
    Mr. Correa. Would you deport them right now? It is a yes-
or-no--
    Chief Scott. If a judge ordered they should be deported, I 
would deport them.
    Mr. Correa. Mr. Marino?
    Mr. Marino. It is impossible to do--
    Mr. Correa. Yes or no, would you deport them right now?
    Mr. Marino. Yes.
    Mr. Correa. Mr. Nowrasteh?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. No, and I would try to legalize--
    Mr. Correa. Mr. Bensman?
    Mr. Bensman. Yes, yes.
    Mr. Correa. OK, would you support an amendment to H.R. 2, 
the immigration reform bill just passed by the majority, that 
would essentially exempt farmworkers from mandatory eVerify, 
would you support that amendment?
    Mr. Scott?
    Chief Scott. No, I believe eVerify is a--
    Mr. Correa. Mr. Marino?
    Mr. Marino. No.
    Mr. Correa. Mr. Bensman?
    Mr. Bensman. eVerify has to happen.
    Mr. Correa. That was a Chair's amendment to H.R. 2.
    Let's come back to terrorism, let's talk about Colombia, 
OK. FARC was essentially decertified as a terrorist 
organization in 2020, is that correct? In 2021, is that 
correct, yes or no?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Yes.
    Mr. Correa. Yes, so yet we continue to talk about members 
of FARC, a civil war that happened 20 years ago, as terrorists. 
Is this refugee movement something unique to the United States, 
or is this something that is worldwide?
    Mr. Scott, worldwide or U.S.?
    Chief Scott. I believe there is struggle--
    Mr. Correa. Mr. Marino? I got less than a minute guys, come 
on.
    Mr. Marino. I couldn't hear the question, sir.
    Mr. Correa. Is the refugee movement something unique to the 
United States or is this a worldwide phenomenon?
    Mr. Marino. No, it is not unique.
    Mr. Correa. It is worldwide.
    Mr. Marino. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Correa. Colombia right now is holding three million--
hosting three million Venezuelan refugees, and we just talked 
about Colombia as being a source of the problem. In my 20 
seconds left, in the trips I have taken to Latin America 
recently, I think we have to think about the border challenge 
on a worldwide scale, OK.
    We have a lot of allies South of the border that are 
holding, that are hosting refugees, are working with us. For us 
to sit here and talk about what is going on at that border, I 
think as policymakers is very wrong.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Van Drew.
    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I am going to deviate from what I was going to say. I 
almost don't know where to start but other than to say Mr. 
Nowrasteh, I disagree and sometimes agree and partially agree 
with people. I disagree with you so totally.
    You are sitting in your safe office looking at facts that 
you believe are accurate, which they are not, and not talking 
to the people who live at the border, the people who work at 
the border, the people that are suffering, whether it is in 
Arizona, California, and Texas. Now, of course, the entire 
United States of America.
    Let me say one thing, anybody that believes this problem is 
only a problem for the Southern border is wrong. This is a 
problem for the United States of America. Just to give you a 
little example, a little different route, didn't come over the 
border.
    Did you ever hear of a man by the name of Danelo 
Cavalcante? He's the escaped; quite a sensational thing that 
went on. A German shepherd got him, thank God. This is a man 
that murdered his friend in Brazil, illegally, because he is a 
murderer.
    Got into Puerto Rico, and then from Puerto Rico got to 
Florida and then came up to Pennsylvania. Had an argument with 
his girlfriend. He stabbed her with a butter knife 38 times; 38 
times.
    Nobody is demonizing immigration. We are almost all of us 
either sons and daughters or immigrants ourselves. Immigration 
is a good thing, legal immigration. What happened to the idea 
of the rule of law?
    Frankly, Mr. Nowrasteh, I don't care what you think sitting 
in your safe office removed from everybody, playing with some 
numbers. Go and talk to people, people who have suffered.
    Who is suffering too? A lot of the illegal immigrants, 
because they are being used, they are being used by these 
individuals that we know are dispensing drugs, are hurting 
children, are involved with human trafficking, and drug 
trafficking. We call them the drug cartel. Now, establishing 
business in the United States.
    So, the answer is not to just go willy nilly and radically 
increase, radically increase the number of illegal immigrants. 
The answer is to have real borders. The answer is to have the 
rule of law. Once you establish that, then you look into what 
needs to be done in our immigration system.
    We need to support our individuals who are trying to 
protect us at the border. I felt so bad for them because they 
are so much held back from doing their job.
    Last week I learned of an administration proposal from the 
Biden Administration and, by the way, because of a New York 
City problem. What did we expect? It is a sanctuary city.
    New Jersey where I live is a sanctuary State. You are 
saying to people we are going to fund you, we are going to take 
care of you, and we welcome you. We will give you legal 
defense.
    We don't take care of our own people. Our veterans still 
don't get what they need. We have a mental health crisis in 
America. We have an educational crisis in America. We don't 
have the money and time for that. We have the money and time to 
take God knows who, some of them good people, but doing it the 
wrong way. Some of them not.
    According to your figures, never has any one of them done 
anything bad. That is just not accurate, it is not. So, 
consider the national security implications if they want to do 
to my State. I live in Southern New Jersey, Atlantic City 
Airport.
    We have the 177th Fighter Guard, you have the FAA Technical 
Center. Serious, serious facilities that need to be protected. 
The 177th protects the Washington to New York corridor. They 
wanted up to 60,000 people they are talking about in a town of 
50,000 people. That is going to really do well for the 
education system.
    It is your--you want to open it up, so let's open it all 
up. Every country in the world, whether they are good, bad, or 
otherwise, just let them open it up. We can't absorb that, and 
you are not going to answer yet.
    This is especially concerning given recent reports that we 
have that there are Isis sympathizers smuggling Russian and 
Eastern Europeans across the border, and terrorists have been 
apprehended who are real terrorists at our port of entry. I 
don't know where you get your stats from, but we also get stats 
that are good. So, the situation is out of control.
    Chief Scott, in your written testimony, you mention how the 
terrorist attacks of September 11th were perpetrated by 
individuals who entered the country through ports of entry. Is 
the United States at an elevated risk of any type of terrorist 
attack, given the state of the Southwest border?
    You are a chief, you have to only want to say what is the 
truth, tell us the truth.
    Chief Scott. I believe we are. We forget that there would 
have been 20 attackers, but one was actually caught by the CBP 
officer that interviewed him. We are not doing those interviews 
at the Southwest border. The cartel's picking and choosing who 
enters our country right now instead of us, and that is a 
significant threat to this country.
    Mr. Van Drew. Mr. Nowrasteh, so you think--
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Van Drew. Oh, I am sorry. Thank you, Chair. Man, I'm 
fired up. I am sorry.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Moore.
    Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    We have talked a lot, and I don't think any of us in here 
are against legal immigration. Immigration builds the Nation, 
but an invasion destroys a Nation.
    What we have going on at the Southern border right now is 
an invasion. We have basically replaced the population of my 
entire State with people we really don't know who they are.
    As Mr. Nowrasteh--is that how you say your name?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Nowrasteh.
    Mr. Moore. Nowrasteh, the Remain in Mexico policy that the 
Trumps had in place, wouldn't that help vet people before they 
came here? Because I understand that the minute we did away 
with Remain in Mexico, people started pouring in here and then 
applying for asylum. So, we gave them a cellphone and sent them 
on their way in busses or whatever the case may be.
    Don't you think in some ways that would have helped us vet 
the people coming across the border?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. I don't think it would do to much better 
than what is going on right now. The main problem is that you 
just have a large number of people who are coming up all the--
asylum and nonasylum.
    Mr. Moore. Let me ask you this, then. Sheriff Dannels 
testified, four decades on the U.S. Southern border. He wasn't 
in the office. He is actually on the border. He said the best 
he had ever seen the border was in 2018. He said the worst he 
has ever seen it, is today.
    So, you mentioned the $5,000-$20,000. That seems to have 
become the going price now. How do those people, Mr. Marino, 
how do they pay that money back if, say, if you are wanting to 
come to the country and you are coming from Venezuela and it is 
$8,000, what do those people--how do they pay that money back 
to the cartel?
    Is it a cash-up-front deal, or do they make installment 
payments? Are they indentured servants, or are they just drug 
mules?
    Mr. Marino. They work it off while in the United States. It 
comes in all different forms in terms of how they pay that off. 
This is where we are extremely susceptible to terrorist 
organizations.
    Because depending on who funds, in advance, the money to 
the migrants to make this journey, their families are going to 
be held to account back in the country of origin where they 
start. The migrant, once they enter the United States, is 
basically at the beck and call, it is an extension--
    Mr. Moore. So, you were saying they are either bond 
servants or slaves. Is that what our government is doing?
    Mr. Marino. That is exactly right. This is more pervasive 
than most people think. This is a huge problem. Most of these 
migrants don't have a way to pay in advance for these funds to 
be trafficked across the border.
    So, the overwhelming majority are going to do the beck-and-
call work of the cartels and whoever else the cartels are 
working with.
    Mr. Moore. So, they have to make the payments or else the 
cartel goes and finds a family or something horrible happens.
    Mr. Marino. It is a fact. I have studied this for decades 
and decades. This is a long-term payment plan. If they don't do 
what they are told, families die in the countries of origin and 
the person here.
    Mr. Moore. This is getting dramatically worse since January 
2020.
    Mr. Marino. Dramatically.
    Mr. Moore. Mr. Scott, I heard that this is an option too, 
that if you didn't have the money, you could actually backpack 
heroin, cocaine, or fentanyl to pay your passage. So, instead 
of installment payments, you could actually backpack drugs, 
become a mule if you will, to the cartel and that pay passage.
    Is that also the case? Have you heard that? I just happened 
to hear that when I was at the border.
    Chief Scott. Yes, I agree with the prior witness, 
everything he said. That is also another way that you can pay 
is by trafficking drugs or doing any service for the cartel.
    Mr. Moore. Chief, you said that the CBP caught one of the
9/11, one of the 20, I guess. My understanding is the other 9/
11 pilot, sir, terrorist, whatever we want to call them today, 
they actually overstayed their visas.
    Chief Scott. I believe that is accurate. The one 
individual, and DHS didn't exist yet, so it was legacy Customs, 
but was doing a good interview and believed that something 
wasn't right with that individual and denied him entry. It is 
believed that would have been the 20th.
    Mr. Moore. The others--Mr. Bensman, any of you guys want to 
answer this--had we actually enforced the laws on the books and 
when the visa has expired, the visa expired, it would send them 
back. This could have been averted, could it have not? Any, it 
doesn't matter--
    Chief Scott. I believe it could be. I really want to 
highlight too, though, we identified that threat, we worked on 
that threat for years within CBP and DHS. We never ignored no 
matter what you do to criminals and terrorists, they are going 
to try to do something else.
    We knew they would go to the Southwest border, that was 
part of the planning, that was the second phase. We are seeing 
it now; the threat is real.
    Mr. Moore. So, Chief, you are warning us now that there is 
a problem.
    Chief Scott. Yes, definitely.
    Mr. Moore. Go ahead, Mr. Marino.
    Mr. Marino. Yes, and we are certainly in an elevated risk 
environment. I oversaw the implementation of the National 
Terrorism Advisory System, and I would actually like to see it 
used the way we intended it to be used.
    Instead of sending out bulletins on things like 
disinformation and No. 1 threats that are not the No. 1 
threats, I have yet to see an NTAS bulletin issued about the 
crisis on the Southwest border and the threat level that it 
accurately represents.
    It is not a system to be politicized, and it is obviously 
being politicized. There should no doubt be a National 
Terrorism Advisory System bulletin for an elevated threat 
environment for what is going on at our border currently.
    Mr. Moore. Thank you. With that, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back. Ms. Ross.
    Ms. Ross. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks so much to the 
witnesses for being here.
    I want to echo Ranking Member Nadler's comments about the 
timing of this hearing. It is three days after the anniversary 
of the worst terrorist attack the United States has ever seen. 
This week should be a time for all of us in Congress to reflect 
on the impact of terrorism and what we can do to make our 
country safer from attacks like the one that we saw on 9/11.
    This hearing is not really respecting the legacy of 9/11. 
Rather, scheduling this hearing for this week, the majority is 
using the tragedy of September 11th to justify their 
immigration agenda that does not solve all the immigration 
issues that are before us, as my colleague Congresswoman 
Escobar laid out. It is painful to see the legacy of 9/11 
twisted in this political manner.
    As we have heard from Mr. Nowrasteh, there have been no 
murders or injuries committed by terrorists who have illegally 
entered the United States through the U.S.-Mexico border in the 
past 48 years. This hearing doesn't reflect that reality. Nor 
does it provide a forum for a genuine discussion about how to 
make our country safer from the terrorists who are most likely 
to come here.
    If the other side wanted to do that, they would work with 
us to address homegrown terrorists, who have committed many of 
the more violent attacks in the United States, particularly 
recently.
    If they wanted to make our country safer, they would work 
with us to provide security for schools, churches, movie 
theaters, and keep the guns out of the hands of violent 
individuals with extremist belief.
    Mr. Nowrasteh, could you remind the Subcommittee, how did 
the 9/11 terrorists enter the United States?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. The 19 September 11th hijackers entered 
lawfully. Eighteen of them entered on tourist visas. One of 
them entered on a student visa. They were lawfully present at 
the time of the attacks.
    Ms. Ross. Is entry through the Southern border in any 
connected to terrorist activity in the United States?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. It has not been historically, and there is 
very little indication that it is currently.
    Ms. Ross. What is the likelihood that someone will be 
murdered by a foreign-born terrorist in the United States?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Based on data from 1975 through the end of 
2022, the annual chance of being murdered is about one in 4.4 
million per year. By comparison, the chance of being murdered 
in a nonterrorist homicide is about one in 20,000 per year, or 
about 316 times greater.
    Ms. Ross. If Members of this Committee want to look at the 
way to improve national security and terrorist threats, what 
would you recommend we do?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. I think the No. 1 thing to do in this 
scenario is to increase lawful immigration so that we can 
control the border. I think the other witnesses up here 
actually made a fantastic case for doing that when talking 
about the smuggling and the human rights violations and how the 
cartel has got their fingers dug in deep into this black 
market.
    If you don't like that, the one sure-fire way to get rid of 
it, to exclude the black market from this, is to legalize that 
flow so folks can come in legally.
    If people can buy a plane ticket from their home country 
and come here lawfully after being vetted, they are not going 
to pay cartels $10,000 to smuggle them across a jungle and then 
a desert where they are going to be--have a good chance of 
being raped or murdered, etc.
    The way to control and to regulate this market is through 
legalization. We just cannot regulate; it is impossible to 
regulate a black market. We need to legalize it.
    Ms. Ross. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady yields back. The Chair 
recognizes Mr. Hunt for five minutes.
    Mr. Hunt. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    When 9/11 happened, I was a sophomore at West Point. I was 
sitting in my barracks, Eisenhower Barracks, as I recall, on 
the third floor. I watched with terror 3,000 souls leave this 
earth.
    At that moment as a sophomore at West Point I knew, and my 
classmates knew, West Point class of 2004--actually three of us 
are currently serving in the halls of Congress right now--we 
knew that we were all going to go to war.
    We knew that there was a chance that we would not make it 
back alive, but by God, we were going to do whatever it took to 
protect our country and to prevent something like that from 
ever happening again. This is why protecting this country and 
protecting our Southern border means so much to me.
    The open borders that we are seeing right now at our 
Southern border is a slap in the face of everyone who has 
sacrificed to keep anything like 9/11 from happening again in 
our great country. We lost a lot of blood, a lot of treasure, 
to keep our Nation safe, including many of my West Point 
classmates that are no longer with us.
    We were told that if we fought terror abroad, we could keep 
it from coming in our own country. I still believe that to this 
day.
    It is because of Joe Biden that we have now essentially 
turned our Southern border into a welcome mat for terrorists. 
Now, the Biden Administration would like you to believe that 
every person coming across our border is an asylum seeker 
simply looking for a better life. That is not only a lie, but 
also it is insulting to our intelligence.
    This administration says illegal aliens are women and 
children wanting a better opportunity, and I have some numbers 
for you that would point out the contrary. Since October 2022, 
CBP flagged 75,000 illegal aliens in our country as national 
security risks.
    Last year CBP announced that 98 illegal aliens on a 
terrorist watchlist on our Southern border, 98, that is nine 
times the number of people encountered on the terrorist 
watchlist during Trump's entire presidency.
    Wait, there is more. Just last week, the Office Inspector 
General released their audit of DHS titled, ``DHS Does Not Have 
Assurance That All Migrants Can Be Located Once Released Into 
the United States.''
    Quick recap of what is going on here. We have 75,000 
illegal immigrants living among us who are national security 
risks currently. CBP is encountering illegal aliens on the 
terrorist watchlist at a record rate, and DHS is releasing 
illegal aliens that are a national security risk to the 
interior of our country, and you can't even tell us where they 
are.
    Why do we have a terrorist watchlist? If people on our 
terrorist watchlist can simply walk into our open Southern 
border, then why do we have one at all?
    How is it possible that the FBI has no problem hunting down 
January 6th protesters years later, but this administration has 
lost track of illegal aliens who pose a real threat to our 
national security?
    We know this administration could track down anyone, 
anytime, anywhere, we have seen them do it. Why? It is my 
opinion that this administration views patriots, or as the 
Biden Administration calls them, ``MAGA Republicans,'' as 
national security threats, while viewing illegal aliens on the 
terrorist watchlist as asylum seekers simply looking for a 
better life.
    We live in an upside-down world today where Americans are 
vetted and surveilled more than illegal aliens that we know 
have a propensity to break the law. It is not an oversight. It 
is not a mistake. It is a choice.
    We have billionaires right now that are putting patrons in 
space for sport, and you mean to tell me that we cannot stop 
illegal immigrants that clearly pose a threat to our national 
security from entering our country? I have a report that says 
it.
    Now, many of my colleagues on the left, they want to say 
that well, if you have border security that is racist or that 
is wrong or you are xenophobic. I am not. I am pro-America. I 
am pro preserving the values of our country and having a 
sovereign border.
    Six and a half million people entering our country 
illegally is ridiculous. Enough fentanyl has poured into this 
country to kill every American six times, it is ridiculous.
    I am somebody that is willing to die for this country and 
to keep it safe. We cannot continue this. It is time for us to 
fix our Southern border. Thank you. I yield back the rest of my 
time.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired. I will 
now recognize myself for five minutes.
    Mr. Scott, you served as Chief of the Border Patrol through 
the end of the Trump Administration and the beginning of the 
Biden Administration. Ms. Escobar and others have assured us 
there really was no difference in policy between those two 
administrations. Was this your observation?
    Chief Scott. It completely misses the mark. I will go 
beyond that. I was in the Border Patrol for 29 years, not just 
during the Trump Administration.
    I was in San Diego when the Clinton administration said, 
``illegal immigration is a threat to this country, we need to 
do something about it.'' We came up with an operation and we 
started using things called fences, same as a wall. We started 
using consequences, and we addressed it.
    Mr. McClintock. What impact did the Biden policies have on 
the security of our Southern border?
    Chief Scott. It reversed the entire like 29 years of my 
career. It reversed all the progress we made and completed 
decimated border security.
    Mr. McClintock. Would you say that these changes are 
responsible for the crisis we now see at that border?
    Chief Scott. One hundred percent because it is catch and 
release.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Nadler assures us that well, don't 
worry, everybody who comes across is subject to, his words, 
``rigorous vetting procedure.'' Would you elucidate on that?
    Chief Scott. The information they give the officer, their 
name, and even their fingerprints, are bounced off of a data 
base here in the United States that has minuscule information 
about foreigners in it. So, it is the equivalent of checking 
them in basically an empty hard drive.
    Mr. McClintock. So, you once described it as checking it 
against a blank sheet of paper.
    Chief Scott. Correct.
    Mr. McClintock. Because we don't have that information, and 
then they are allowed in.
    Chief Scott. It sounds really good. It is really doing 
nothing. It is the interviews where the agents--and they look 
at their tattoos, they look at their face, they figure out if 
they are telling you the truth. That is where you find things 
out, and that is not taking place today because of the massive 
flow.
    Mr. McClintock. Because of the massive flow. Yet, the 
Democrats say the solution to this is we need to increase that 
massive flow. We need to legalize all this so that everybody 
coming in has a chance to go through that very process. How 
thorough would that be?
    Chief Scott. I like to actually use facts as well. The fact 
is every time, and this goes beyond immigration, every time 
there has been a consequence for a crime, a deterrent, and a 
consequence, that crime has gone down.
    When we had consequences on the border and we held people 
until the judge adjudicated their case, the flow stopped, 
because the vast majority of the asylum seekers are frauds. 
That is the solution, just enforce the law.
    Mr. McClintock. OK, now the two numbers that I have been 
focused on are the 2.6 million illegal aliens that the 
administration has deliberately allowed into this country, 
despite the Federal law that says they should be detained, and, 
in addition, to that the 1.7 million known got-aways, people 
that the Border Patrol observed crossing the border, but simply 
couldn't intercept because they are completely overwhelmed.
    As I said in my introductory remarks, this is a population 
larger than the combination of New Mexico and West Virginia put 
together. If we legalize that, we are going to get more of it, 
obviously. How thorough can the vetting process be under such 
circum-stances?
    Mr. McClintock. There is no bandwidth for that. So, it is 
nice to talk about things. Theory is great, in reality, there 
is only a certain number of agents and officers.
    It takes two hours for a CBP officer to process one of 
these asylum seekers at a port, about 1\1/2\ hours for a Border 
Patrol agent. Just do the math. There would be no enforcement.
    Then back to New York. They can't handle 100,000? How many 
is too many? Seriously, we can't--this is unsustainable.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Nowrasteh, 5,000 terrorists released in 
Parwan. We know where one of them went. One of them, 10 days 
later, went to Abbey Gate and detonated the bomb that killed 13 
U.S. servicemembers. Can you tell us where the other 5,000 are?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. I'm sorry, can you tell me the name of that 
individual? I missed the first part of that.
    Mr. McClintock. The terrorist who detonated the bomb came 
from Parwan. Where are the other 5,000 that were released that 
day?
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Which bomb?
    Mr. McClintock. The bomb that was detonated at the Kabul 
airport.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Oh, Kabul.
    Mr. McClintock. Oh, don't play dumb. Come on.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. No, I am sorry, I couldn't hear you. You 
mean in Afghanistan? In Afghanistan.
    Mr. McClintock. If you want to play dumb, play dumb. I am 
done asking you questions.
    Mr. Nowrasteh. I am sorry, is this about the Southwest 
border?
    Mr. McClintock. I am not playing this game with--
    Mr. Nowrasteh. Is this about terrorism on the border?
    Mr. McClintock. The time I have left. Mr. Bensman, we talk 
about legalizing the process. Don't we already have a legal 
process availed by millions of people to enter this country 
legally who obey all our laws, who do everything our country 
has asked of them?
    Isn't that system already in existence? Isn't the problem 
that we have millions of people now flouting that law?
    Mr. Bensman. Yes. I think after 9/11 a lot was done to 
enhance the counter-terrorism kind of security screening 
measures for a lot of those, which I believe made it more 
difficult. They do still fail sometimes.
    I believe that with this mass migration crisis, that the 
balance is shifting where people, bad guys across the world are 
well aware that our border now is a vulnerability and they can 
get through. There was just recently in July a case in Ohio, 
FBI case that just wrapped up that involved an Iraqi asylum 
seeker.
    He is--pleaded guilty now, defendant, whose plot involved 
bringing four Iraqi terrorists over the border to kill 
President George Bush, former President George Bush. That was a 
legitimate counter-terrorism case, and what it shows us it that 
they are looking, the bad guys are looking at the border right 
now in a different way.
    Mr. McClintock. Well, and as I recall, he actually said 
that he was, ``now bringing his accomplices in through the 
Southern border.''
    Mr. Bensman. That is right.
    Mr. McClintock. Because it is so much easier than abusing 
the visa process.
    My time has expired. I want to thank all of you for joining 
us today. I want to thank all the Members who joined us for 
today's questioning. This will conclude the hearing.
    I would like to thank the witnesses for appearing. Without 
objection, all Members will have five legislative days to 
submit additional written questions for the witnesses or 
additional materials for the record.
    Without objection, the hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:51 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the 
Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and 
Enforcement can be found at the following links: https://
docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=116352.

                                 [all]