[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




                     OVERSIGHT OF FEDERAL AGENCIES'
                    POST-PANDEMIC TELEWORK POLICIES

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
                        AND THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE

                                 of the

                         COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
                           AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________


                           SEPTEMBER 14, 2023

                               __________


                           Serial No. 118-62

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability





                 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]




                       Available on: govinfo.gov
                         oversight.house.gov or
                             docs.house.gov

                               ______
                                 

                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE

53-380 PDF                WASHINGTON : 2024












               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman

Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking 
Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Ro Khanna, California
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Katie Porter, California
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Cori Bush, Missouri
Byron Donalds, Florida               Shontel Brown, Ohio
Kelly Armstrong, North Dakota        Jimmy Gomez, California
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
William Timmons, South Carolina      Robert Garcia, California
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Maxwell Frost, Florida
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Lisa McClain, Michigan               Greg Casar, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Dan Goldman, New York
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina        Vacancy
Nick Langworthy, New York
Eric Burlison, Missouri

                                 ------                                

                       Mark Marin, Staff Director
       Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
                      Bill Womack, Senior Advisor
                 Alex Rankin, Professional Staff Member
      Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5074

                  Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director
                      Contact Number: 202-225-5051

                                 ------                                

    Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce

                     Pete Sessions, Texas, Chairman

Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Kweisi Mfume, Maryland Ranking 
Clay Higgins, Louisiana                  Minority Member
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Byron Donalds, Florida                   Columbia
William Timmons, South Carolina      Maxwell Frost, Florida
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Greg Casar, Texas
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Robert Garcia, California
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina        Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Eric Burlison, Missouri              Jasmine Crockett, Texas
                                     Vacancy










                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

Hearing held on September 14, 2023...............................     1

                               Witnesses

                              ----------                              

Mr. Randolph ``Tex'' Alles, Deputy Under Secretary for Management 
  & Senior Official Performing the Duties of the Under Secretary 
  for Management, Department of Homeland Security
Oral Statement...................................................     6
Dr. Karen Marrongelle, Chief Operating Officer, National Science 
  Foundation
Oral Statement...................................................     8
Mr. Robert Gibbs, Associate Administrator for the Mission Support 
  Directorate, National Aeronautics and Space Administration
Oral Statement...................................................     9
Mr. Dan Dorman, Executive Director for Operation, Nuclear 
  Regulatory Commission
Oral Statement...................................................    11

Written opening statements and statements for the witnesses are 
  available on the U.S. House of Representatives Document 
  Repository at: docs.house.gov.

                           Index of Documents

                              ----------                              

  * Statement for the Record; submitted by Rep. Connolly.
  * Report, OPM, December 2022, ``Status of Telework in the 
  Federal Government''; submitted by Rep. Mfume.
  * Statement for the Record, from the Parallel Professionals, 
  EFM, MOH, and the U.S. Department of State employee 
  organizations; submitted by Rep. Crockett.
  * Statement for the Record, from military spouses; submitted by 
  Rep. Mfume.
  * Article, Space Magazine, ``Elon Musk Tells SpaceX, Tesla 
  Workers They Must Be in the Office at Least 40 Hours a Week: 
  Report''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
  * Report, GAO, ``Federal Real Property: Preliminary Results 
  Show Federal Buildings Remain Underutilized Due to Longstanding 
  Challenges and Increased Telework''; submitted by Rep. Biggs.
  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Alles; submitted by Rep. 
  Palmer.
  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Alles; submitted by Rep. 
  Biggs.
  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Alles; submitted by Rep. 
  Burchett.
  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Dorman; submitted by Rep. 
  Donalds.
  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Dorman; submitted by Rep. 
  Sessions.
  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Dorman; submitted by Rep. 
  Palmer.
  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Dorman; submitted by Rep. 
  Boebert.
  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Gibbs; submitted by Rep. 
  Palmer.
  * Questions for the Record: to Dr. Marrongelle; submitted by 
  Rep. Palmer.
  * Questions for the Record: to Dr. Marrongelle; submitted by 
  Rep. Biggs.

Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.









 
                     OVERSIGHT OF FEDERAL AGENCIES'
                    POST-PANDEMIC TELEWORK POLICIES

                              ----------                              


                      Thursday, September 14, 2023

                        House of Representatives

               Committee on Oversight and Accountability

    Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce

                                           Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:08 a.m., in 
room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Pete Sessions 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Sessions, Palmer, Higgins, Biggs, 
Burchett, Boebert, Edwards, Mfume, Norton, Frost, Connolly, Lee 
of Pennsylvania, and Crockett.
    Mr. Sessions. Good morning.
    This is a hearing of the Subcommittee on Government 
Operations and the Federal Workforce, and we will come to 
order.
    We want to welcome each and every one of you who are taking 
time to be here today on what we believe is an important issue 
for the American people and for Congress, to learn a highlight 
about what we are doing with conversation with the Federal 
Government.
    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any 
time. And I would recognize myself for the purpose of an 
opening statement.
    I want to welcome everybody today and thank you for taking 
time.
    Today, we are reviewing telework policies to select Federal 
agencies.
    In May, this Committee sent letters to 25 agencies asking 
for information around their telework policies. It took a 
while, but ultimately we received at least some of the 
responses. Some of the responses did show up. But we moved 
forward.
    The witnesses here today were invited because their 
responses reflected a good faith effort to answer our 
questions. And we believe that where you offer a good faith of 
trying to respond, you also become a part of their plight and 
problems. And so, we are allowing those people to be in our 
first round.
    Mr. Mfume knows we are going to try and come after a second 
round, and that might be those who chose not to respond or 
responded in what we felt like a less than adequate way.
    It does not mean that in their responses there were no gaps 
or information that we should not have understood, and it does 
not mean that it did not conjure up questions that we would 
have for you.
    But I do appreciate their responses and want to highlight 
the agencies that are here today did respond. And I hope today 
will be a positive discussion and conversation about their 
needs, how they are doing, and what we need to do as Members of 
Congress to help out.
    The north star for any policy impacting Federal agencies 
should be to put the needs of the American people first. And 
while you and I recognize that means, to you, your agency 
putting your employees first to make sure the American people 
can be helped, it is our view that we hear from people that are 
called the American public, and they have vast needs also. And 
we may hear from them perhaps before you do.
    When Federal agencies pivoted to maximum telework when they 
did, at the onset of COVID, it was really a matter of 
necessity, and I think the American people understood that, 
because they too were living that in their lives. And telework 
did and can play a vital role in continuing operations like 
those that you have.
    In this Subcommittee's June hearing, we heard about the 
problems experienced by those agencies who have continued to 
stay ill-prepared during this period of time. But what we are 
talking about today is a different matter. It is the day-to-day 
operations of Federal agencies that are not in an emergency 
circumstance.
    As this Nation emerges from COVID--and it did a long time 
ago--it appeared to me and to many of my colleagues that the 
Biden Administration was attempting to portray the experience 
during COVID as those that would still be necessary and could 
be undertaken today.
    And I think it has caused unmitigated stress on the 
American people, a misunderstanding about the role of working 
for the Federal Government, and the role of Congress as we hear 
back from people.
    But there was never really any evidence, other than 
references to a survey of Federal employees about what the 
impact was and about how the American public felt like they 
were doing business with agencies across the government. And 
that is why we undertook what we did in June. That is why we 
are here in September and why we will be back.
    We believe and I believe that telework can be helpful to 
agencies to help them carry out their mission. It does not mean 
every single agency would necessarily have that same success. 
And that is why, when I see a Federal Government across-the-
board answer, it seems simplistic. It seems like it is OK for 
us just to do this because we can.
    Private industry does not have that same latitude, 
necessarily. And yet they have found ways to adapt themself to 
the issues to meet public needs and demands. They, not unlike 
the government, have day-to-day demands, whether you are in 
telecommunications, whether you are in the hospital, whether 
you are in an airline industry.
    So, the White House Chief of Staff sent an email expressing 
some of the points that I have talked about. But we, on this 
side, the Committee, want to vet and understand the 
effectiveness of what you are doing and, to the maximum 
possible extent, the reliability of data that you may present 
today, which will be important to us. In the absence of that 
that we had, we have asked for you to be here.
    So, when the House passed the SHOW UP Act in January, this 
was portrayed as an effort to end all teleworking. It is not. 
We recognize the difference between necessarily staying at 
home, 5-day workweek, absence, whatever you might want to call 
it, with going to work and doing telework. And we want to 
recognize the difference, and we think it is up to you to come 
and tell that story today.
    You may find that there are some Members of Congress that 
are here present today that need to know more about your story, 
but I hope you will take the time to listen to us and hear from 
us, because we think we have a story to tell also today.
    So, I want to thank you for being here.
    And at this time I would like to yield to the distinguished 
Ranking Member, the gentleman, Mr. Mfume. The gentleman is 
recognized for the purpose of an opening statement.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you very, very much, Mr. Chair. I want to 
thank you also for the personal courtesy you extended earlier 
prior to this hearing today.
    I want to thank the witnesses, obviously, for being here 
with us to be a part of this discussion.
    Mr. Connolly. Was the Ranking Member caught in traffic?
    Mr. Mfume. The Ranking Member was caught in traffic.
    Mr. Connolly. Telework can help.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Sessions. Good luck.
    Mr. Mfume. Members of this Subcommittee, we feel, perform a 
very important oversight role on behalf of not only Federal 
workers, but the American public in general. And with this 
coveted role in many respects comes immense responsibility as 
we are all positioned in a way that impacts our constituents in 
the most relevant of ways.
    As Members of Congress, we have all heard our own fair 
share of complaints, as well as appraisals, surrounding 
casework by different agencies. In the time that is mine, I 
want to take this moment to focus on a real story from a real 
person that my office interacted with during the height of the 
pandemic. And, for the sake of anonymity, I will simply refer 
to her as Jane.
    Jane contacted our office during the pandemic regarding 
FEMA's COVID-19 Funeral Assistance Program when she filed for 
her brother. Unfortunately, he passed away from COVID and 
COVID-related symptoms in December 2021.
    Shortly after my office connected with FEMA regarding 
Jane's application, it only took FEMA a few days to approve the 
family's reimbursement, exceeding $3,000.
    Now, keep in mind, our office obtained this favorable 
outcome for Jane in a matter of days during a time when more 
than half of FEMA's workforce was telework eligible.
    So, as I have said time and time again--and I would just 
like to be deliberately redundant here--the last four letters 
in the word telework are w-o-r-k. People who are teleworking 
work.
    I consider constituent services to be some of my most 
important and rewarding work in this Congress, and I am sure 
many of the Members of this Committee feel the same way. We are 
all proud to serve as a resource and an advocate for our 
respective communities.
    But I also expect each agency to ensure its employees 
possess the ability to deliver timely responses to Americans, 
whether they are working remotely, teleworking, or in person.
    Over the summer, some of you will recall that this 
Subcommittee hosted a hearing on addressing post-pandemic 
backlogs at the agency level. And I asked a significant witness 
from the Social Security Administration, Deputy Commissioner 
Chad Poist, whether or not telework contributed to the agency's 
backlog.
    Mr. Poist stated on the record, quote, ``I do not believe 
that there are any contributions to that backlog due to 
telework,'' end of quote. He went on to say that, ``Telework 
has allowed us to continue our agency's mission.''
    The Office of Personnel Management surveyed over 40 
agencies that have achieved cost savings resulting from the 
increase in telework. And as more workers transitioned to at-
home work outside of the District, some agencies also outside 
of the District found savings by reducing office space leases 
and transitioning into smaller offices.
    As less workers were obligated to commute, some agencies 
found savings due to the decrease in workers' utilization of 
the transit subsidy program and a decrease also in cost savings 
for travel that so many Federal workers in positions from 
headquarters are required to do. That ranged from thousands to 
millions of dollars.
    Mr. Chair, I would ask unanimous consent to submit for the 
record the OPM's December 2022 ``Status of Telework in the 
Federal Government'' report which further details the agency's 
cost savings resulting from telework during that period.
    I, like the Chairman, believe that telework is important. 
It is also important to guard, as best we can, the assumptions, 
the accusations, and to guard against many of the things that 
are not right that get thrown into that basket as people 
develop, as we all have the right to, our own opinions. And 
while there are obviously advantages to telework, I believe 
that agencies must prioritize in-depth examinations and reviews 
periodically of their work postures on telework and their 
remote work policies.
    Prioritizing data collection on performance is absolutely 
critical to ensure that their policies lead to mission 
achievements. I know how valuable face-to-face interactions are 
in order to strengthen interpersonal relationships, and I also 
recognize that flexible work environments are one of the many 
tools to help fill a governmentwide skills shortage.
    As we are all aware, just last month President Biden 
mandated a return to work for most Federal employees. To that 
extent, I encourage certain agencies who can increase in-person 
work as necessary that they do so for the successful delivery 
of the agencies' mission and in support of the President's 
mandate.
    And so, I would like to, again, thank all of the witnesses 
who represent different agencies today for testifying and being 
here before us to provide invaluable insight on the outcomes 
and implications of their current policies for work 
flexibility.
    The workforce is the lifeblood of our Federal Government, 
without a doubt, and we must provide an environment that 
attracts and retains the best and the brightest in Federal 
service.
    So, I look forward to hearing directly from all of you 
today as we discuss this. These are unique circumstances which 
require unique approaches.
    And, again, I want to thank Chairman Sessions for calling 
this hearing so that we might continue to followup with 
examination, review, and support where necessary, the efforts 
that so many of you have undertaken.
    So, Mr. Chair, with that, I would yield back the balance of 
my time. And I thank you again for being a part of this effort 
to hear from these witnesses about this very important topic.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. I thank 
you very much.
    So that the panel understands, and I have spoken to several 
of you to let you know that Mr. Mfume and I, along with his 
colleagues and my colleagues, intend to make sure that we work 
closely together, ask the questions that are necessary, and 
then see what answers result from that.
    And I have always agreed to work with him and believe that 
today is another example that I hope will be a successful 
viewpoint that people who are engaged in this, as well as the 
Members, receive the benefits of that.
    I am now pleased to introduce the witnesses.
    A gentleman that I spoke to yesterday on the phone, I 
learned why he goes by Randolph ``Tex'' Alles. And that is 
because he is from San Antonio, Texas, went to a competing high 
school--not fellow high school, but competing high school in 
San Antonio, where I went. And we had a delightful discussion 
about how important education is.
    Mr. Tex Alles serves as Deputy Under Secretary for 
Management at the Department of Homeland Security. In his role, 
Mr. Alles oversees Department-wide management and oversight of 
all support functions, such as information technology, budget, 
financial management, procurement, human capital, security, and 
asset management.
    He previously spent time serving this Nation at the Secret 
Service, and I believe has spent time as a United States Marine 
for our Nation.
    Thank you. We are delighted to have you, sir.
    Our next witness will be Dr. Karen Marrongelle, who serves 
as Chief Operating Officer at the National Science Foundation, 
known as NSF, where, among other duties, she oversees the 
Foundation's human capital policies. Prior to this role, she 
served as assistant director of the NSF Education and Human 
Resources Directorate, and, before that, worked for decades in 
academia.
    Welcome, Doctor.
    Mr. Robert Gibbs is an Associate Administrator for the 
Mission Support Directorate for NASA headquarters in 
Washington, DC. Throughout his time at NASA, Mr. Gibbs has 
served in senior human capital management roles where he has 
had stewardship responsibilities for the agency's workforce.
    Prior to joining NASA, Mr. Gibbs held senior human capital 
management and administrative roles at the Department of Energy 
while serving in the United States Navy.
    Sir, welcome very much, and thank you for your service.
    Mr. Dan Dorman, who I also spoke with yesterday, serves as 
Executive Director for Operations of the Nuclear Regulatory 
Commission, the highest-ranking career position in the agency, 
with responsibility for overseeing NRC's administrative 
functions. In this capacity, Mr. Dorman also serves as the 
chief operating officer.
    So, I want to welcome each of you and ask that you all 
stand and raise your right hand for the oath that is always 
given to our witnesses that we have before Congress.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will stand, 
as they are doing, and raise their hand and answer.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are 
about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but 
the truth, so help you God?
    Let the record reflect that each of the witnesses answered 
in the affirmative, and I would now ask that they would take 
their seat.
    And we do appreciate you being here and look forward to 
your testimony. I spoke to several of you yesterday and have 
encouraged you, by giving you an idea about what we were 
looking for, the story about the success, how you use telework, 
the output of that, and the necessary response to how Congress 
should look at your agency.
    Please know that I am asking that you be around 5 minutes. 
And, as a reminder, please press the button on your microphone 
in front of you so that Members can hear you. And, when you 
begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. 
After 4 minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light 
comes on, I ask that you begin to wind up that question--
opportunity that you have.
    So, I now want to represent Mr. Tex Alles for his opening 
statement.
    The gentleman is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Thank you very much, sir.

                  STATEMENT OF RANDOLPH ``TEX'' ALLES

                 DEPUTY UNDER-SECRETARY FOR MANAGEMENT

                SENIOR OFFICIAL PERFORMING THE DUTIES OF

                   THE UNDER-SECRETARY FOR MANAGEMENT

                    DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY

    Mr. Alles. Thank you, Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member 
Mfume, and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee. It is a 
privilege to appear before you this morning.
    My name is Tex Alles, as already mentioned, and I represent 
the Department of Homeland Security and Management Directorate.
    Throughout my 35 years, in my prior career as a U.S. 
Marine, I learned that, no matter the work, we must take care 
of the people who are called upon to execute the mission and 
also execute the mission itself.
    At DHS, each of our 260,000 employees is called upon to 
execute this mission in different ways. Many work on the front 
lines. Some serve from a customer-facing counter. Others 
operate in a hybrid environment.
    From the outset of the COVID-19 pandemic, approximately 64 
percent of the workforce, myself included, continued to work 
in-person every day.
    Since 2021, we have seen a steady increase of onsite work 
across DHS. As of July 2023, our payroll data indicates 73 
percent of our employees nationwide report in person every day. 
Approximately 85 percent of the nationwide workforce and 61 
percent in the national capital region report onsite more than 
50 percent of the time, and often actually more than that.
    In a workforce as large as ours, you measure performance on 
an enterprise level. My written testimony provides examples of 
how we are meeting the mission.
    But just to name a few, CBP was processing a significant 
volume of imported goods even before the pandemic ended. In 
Fiscal Year 2022 alone, they processed 39 million entries, 
valued at over $3.5 trillion, a 19.5 increase over Fiscal Year 
2021.
    Air travel has rebounded. Of the ten busiest travel days on 
record, TSA has experienced six this fiscal year.
    In DHS headquarters, by prepopulating forms and building 
mobile-friendly experiences, we reduced the time the public 
spends accessing our services by 20 million hours a year.
    Offering workplace flexibilities allows DHS to remain 
competitive in a labor market where applicants overwhelmingly 
apply to remote or telework jobs. It enhances both our 
recruitment and retention efforts, which strengthens our 
mission effectiveness.
    DHS also uses a range of quantitative data to monitor 
organizational health and performance. By leveraging data, we 
can determine if workplace flexibilities are having the 
intended effect on employee recruitment and the DHS mission.
    We see positive impact through an 11 percent increase in 
mission-critical operation staffing when we compare data from 
just prior to the pandemic to data from early 2023.
    The Department has historically been unable to fully staff 
occupations such as human capital, procurement, and IT 
specialists. These types of positions are vital to ensuring 
those on the front lines can execute their mission. The recent 
increase represents 950 additional staff supporting them.
    Workplace flexibilities also increase DHS mission 
resilience in the face of severe weather or emergencies. The 
concept of a snow day does not apply to teleworkers. They 
continue to get the job done safely from alternate locations. 
Likewise, having a partially dispersed workforce enhances the 
Department's continuity of operations posture in unforeseen 
emergencies.
    Lessons learned from elevated telework during the pandemic 
accelerated plans we already had on consolidating and creating 
more collaborative space. Considerable progress has been made 
on capturing enterprise-level data that supports resource 
decisionmaking focused on cost, utilization, and workforce 
location metrics.
    We recognized our buildings were not fully utilized, so we 
acted. In Fiscal Year 2023 alone, we reduced our NCR footprint 
by 450,000 rentable square feet, achieving a cost avoidance of 
almost $16 million annually.
    Since 2018, we have consolidated the NCR footprint by 1.6 
million rentable square feet. The 30-year cost avoidance to the 
Department for these reductions is roughly $1.4 billion.
    While this strategy started with the NCR, we are 
implementing nationwide. Our goal of ``fewer buildings/better 
buildings'' is good for our workforce, good for the DHS 
mission, and good for the taxpayer.
    We will continuously assess the impacts of workplace 
flexibilities on our effectiveness to serve and protect the 
American people, our priority. The Department is committed to 
executing our mission and taking care of our people. We can and 
must do both.
    Thank you for the opportunity to testify today, and I look 
forward to your questions.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.
    Doctor.

                     STATEMENT OF KAREN MARRONGELLE

                        CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER

                      NATIONAL SCIENCE FOUNDATION

    Ms. Marrongelle. Thank you, Chairman Sessions, Ranking 
Member Mfume, and Members of the Subcommittee. It is a 
privilege to appear before you today.
    My name is Dr. Karen Marrongelle, and I am the Chief 
Operating Officer at the National Science Foundation.
    NSF is an independent Federal agency that invests in 
exploratory, discovery-driven research and use-inspired 
innovations across all fields of science, technology, 
engineering, and mathematics, and at all levels of STEM 
education.
    These investments contribute significantly to the economic 
and national security interests of the Nation and development 
of a future-focused science and engineering workforce that 
draws on the talents of all Americans.
    We are currently witnessing intense global competition for 
leadership in technologies, such as artificial intelligence and 
quantum information science. NSF is committed to ensuring that 
the United States remains the global leader in innovation into 
the future.
    Our ability to do so is rooted in sustained support from 
Congress, the ingenuity and perseverance of the research 
enterprise, and the dedicated employees who serve throughout 
NSF.
    Almost the entire NSF workforce of approximately 1,600 
employees is located in Alexandria, Virginia. Of this number, 
more than 1,300 are in telework-eligible positions, and more 
than a thousand are utilizing telework flexibilities.
    NSF has shown that we can embrace telework and flexibility 
while continuing to excel at meeting our mission. NSF has had a 
strong telework policy and practice in place since 2004, with 
over 90 percent of staff utilizing telework prior to the 
pandemic.
    It was NSF's investments in telework over time, both in 
technology that underpins it and the training of staff and 
supervisors to ensure its productivity, that allowed the agency 
to pivot quickly to a virtual environment during the pandemic. 
We were able to do so without seeing a reduction in 
productivity.
    NSF reviews nearly 40,000 proposals each year, of which 
approximately 11,000 are funded. Those funding decisions are 
rooted in NSF's world-renowned merit review process.
    The total number of proposals evaluated peaked during the 
pandemic while we were at maximum telework posture. The NSF 
workforce did not buckle under that pressure. We did not see 
backlogs or delays. The NSF workforce met the demand.
    In addition, during this time NSF stood up the new 
Directorate for Technology, Innovation, and Partnership, we 
unveiled the first-ever image of the black hole at the center 
of the Milky Way Galaxy, and launched new artificial 
intelligence research institutes across the country.
    As COVID restrictions eased, NSF began returning to the 
office. Last year, we updated our telework policy and added 
remote work options for a small number of positions. In 
addition, the agency extended a temporary full-time telework 
option in 90-day increments to help transition to a hybrid 
environment.
    With the declared end of the public health emergency in May 
2023, NSF has continued to reimagine a collaborative work 
posture in a hybrid environment. Over the past year, our 
dedicated professionals across our human resources, information 
technology, and legal teams have put in tremendous effort to 
shape our future work approach while carefully listening to our 
staff.
    Recently, NSF announced that, effective October 23, 2023, 
all NSF employees in telework-eligible positions are expected 
to report onsite for a minimum of 4 days per pay period. Doing 
so allows the agency to meet the expectations of our 
stakeholders, preserve our culture of collaboration, and meet 
our business needs, while maintaining flexibility.
    We will continue to assess our organizational health and 
performance metrics to guide and help our policies into the 
future.
    The entire NSF leadership team is incredibly proud of the 
agency's workforce and the dedication they show to the NSF 
mission. We are honored that, for the past 2 years, NSF has 
ranked second in midsize agencies in the Best Places to Work in 
Government.
    At NSF, we take great pride in being innovators, both in 
how we drive the frontiers of science and engineering and how 
we get our work done to meet the needs of the Nation. I am 
confident we will remain a leader in both.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to testify before you 
today.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much, Doctor.
    Mr. Gibbs, you are recognized.

                       STATEMENT OF ROBERT GIBBS

                        ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR

                  FOR THE MISSION SUPPORT DIRECTORATE

             NATIONAL AERONAUTICS AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION

    Mr. Gibbs. Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member Mfume, and 
Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to 
testify before you today about NASA's telework practices and 
policies and how they enable mission success.
    My name is Bob Gibbs. I am the Associate Administrator for 
Mission Support at NASA. My office provides the tools, 
infrastructure, people, and capabilities to ensure NASA's 
leadership in aerospace, science, and exploration.
    Today, I am pleased to discuss NASA's longstanding telework 
and remote work policies and practices and how they enable 
mission success at NASA.
    Since 2014, NASA has supported various types of telework 
for agency civil service employees based on telework agreements 
that every employee has to establish with their supervisor and 
then subject to senior-level review.
    Before the pandemic, it was not unusual for employees to 
telework 1 or 2 days a week or for employees to have their 
laptops at home in case of a weather emergency to continue 
working from home.
    With only minor changes, our policies are today as they 
were in 2014. In March 2020, NASA was able to quickly move its 
workforce to mandatory telework status by utilizing 
longstanding practices and by capitalizing previous investments 
in information technology infrastructure.
    NASA was never closed.
    Our employees, our civil servants and contractors, 
continued to execute the diverse and challenging missions from 
onsite and remote locations.
    We launched spacecraft and landed another rover on Mars.
    We launched the next-generation space telescope and 
observatory.
    We continued to develop the next-generation human space 
flight system.
    We advanced new technologies in science and aeronautics.
    We interacted virtually with students around the globe.
    We continued in job fairs and small business events.
    We continued to hire and onboard employees.
    We also created special remote opportunities for interns 
across the country.
    Most importantly, NASA has continued to inspire the 
American public with our missions, our spirit of ingenuity, and 
perseverance.
    Within our telework practices and policy, NASA leadership 
has empowered agency organizations and supervisors to determine 
the appropriate workforce flexibilities to accomplish 
individual missions efficiently and effectively. Within the 
boundaries of Federal law, regulation, OPM guidance, NASA 
policy, currently, 98 percent of NASA civil servants are 
telework ready.
    We believe that workforce flexibilities, such as telework 
and remote work, when managed appropriately, provide a 
tremendous opportunity for NASA to remain competitive in the 
modern job market.
    Our highly skilled, sought-after technical workforce is 
increasingly asking for benefits from these collaborative tools 
and other opportunities to work more seamlessly to accomplish 
the mission regardless of location.
    A hybrid work environment increases talent sharing among 
our nine geographically dispersed centers and maximizes cross-
center opportunities without employees having to relocate. 
Having a telework-ready workforce also will help us maintain 
continuity of operations during emergencies.
    To help our supervisors and employees support telework and 
remote work, NASA has developed a variety of resources, 
expanded the available training, and hosted virtual sessions.
    Supervisors are also advised to consider the agency's core 
values--safety, integrity, teamwork, excellence, and 
inclusion--when making decisions about how the telework program 
can impact their teams.
    If employee performance issues exist with any employee, no 
matter where they work, managers are expected to utilize 
performance tools and counseling to address those issues as 
they arise.
    In conclusion, let me assure you that NASA's future work 
environment plans are not written in stone. We recognize we 
will need to make periodic adjustments as we work within this 
new hybrid environment. NASA's senior leaders remain committed 
to developing new ways to measure and evaluate agency 
performance in concert with the new hybrid environment.
    I look forward to discussing this important matter with you 
and your Committee and other stakeholders in Congress. I am 
pleased to answer any questions you might have.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Gibbs, thank you very much.
    Gentleman yields back.
    At this time, the gentleman, Mr. Dorman, you are 
recognized.

                        STATEMENT OF DAN DORMAN

                   EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR FOR OPERATIONS

                     NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION

    Mr. Dorman. Thank you, Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member 
Mfume, distinguished Members of the Subcommittee.
    As the Chair indicated, I am Dan Dorman, Executive Director 
of the NRC, and in that role, I serve as the agency's Chief 
Operating Officer.
    The NRC is an independent Federal agency with a mission to 
license and regulate the civilian use of radioactive materials, 
to provide adequate protection of public health and safety, to 
promote the common defense and security, and to protect the 
environment.
    I welcome the opportunity to discuss the telework policies 
and practices of our agency and their potential impact on our 
mission accomplishment and operations.
    Following the declaration of the public health emergency on 
March 17, 2020, the Office of Management and Budget issued 
specific guidance for agencies to immediately adjust operations 
and services to minimize face-to-face interactions and possibly 
postpone or significantly curtail non-mission-critical 
functions that required onsite or in-person interactions.
    In response to this guidance, on March 19 the NRC swiftly 
implemented mandatory telework for all non-mission-critical 
functions effective immediately, with the NRC's headquarters 
office, our four regional offices, and our Technical Training 
Center remaining open and operational, enabling critical 
functions performed in an NRC facility to continue.
    More than a year later, on November 7, 2021, the NRC 
reentered the workplace and transitioned from a maximum 
telework status to a hybrid work environment.
    After the NRC's reentry, first-line supervisors were 
delegated authority to approve up to 6 days telework per pay 
period, requiring 4 in-person days per pay period.
    Due to changes with the COVID environment, in December 2021 
we had additional flexibilities extended for approximately 3 
months of the first omicron variant.
    Following reentry, I tasked staff and senior leadership to 
study various telework options through what we called our 
Hybrid Environment Assessment and Review Team and a Telework 
Policy and Implementation Working Group. These two groups 
issued reports that contained in-depth assessments and 
benchmarking into the practical and effective use of telework.
    These reports have helped us assess how we achieve our 
mission in a hybrid work environment, including the impacts of 
telework on our organizational health. We have metrics to 
monitor our mission effectiveness, our organizational health, 
and stakeholder confidence. We also evaluated and continue to 
evaluate the impact that our hybrid work environment has on 
space planning and allocation.
    These insights are playing a large role as we pursue new 
office space arrangements, what we call hoteling, working with 
our employees' union. Regardless, the NRC's strategic space 
plans consistently seek to reduce our footprint as appropriate.
    Since Fiscal Year 2019, which includes efforts undertaken 
prior to the public health emergency, the NRC has reduced its 
Washington, DC, area headquarters office footprint by 
approximately 28 percent. This reduction is a result of 
following Federal Government-wide directives to reduce office 
space and to reflect the reduced size of our agency over that 
period.
    In addition, the footprint in three of our four regional 
offices is expected to decrease by approximately 50 percent by 
the end of Fiscal Year 2025. This decrease is also the result 
of staff size reductions, as well as changing workspace design 
to use efficiencies supported by telework.
    Furthermore, the NRC has implemented various network and 
communication enhancements to enable its staff to productively 
engage as a hybrid workforce effectively and securely.
    NRC teleworking employees have been provided a standard 
image agency laptop with multiple security tools, including 
full-disk encryption, multifactor authentication for secure 
authenticated access, a full-time virtual private network tool 
which activates at initial access and encrypts network traffic.
    These solutions enable secure network access for our staff-
to-agency technology and information assets and Federal record 
systems and repositories.
    The NRC has provided its staff with other information 
technology tools and resources, such as Microsoft 365, to 
facilitate close collaboration and communication, whether an 
individual is working in the office or in another location.
    The NRC has met its safety and security objectives, even as 
the agency expanded telework and remote work during the public 
health emergency. The agency continues to meet its mission in 
the current hybrid work environment, focusing in-office time on 
those activities that benefit from an in-person presence.
    As we continue to adapt to our hybrid work environment, the 
NRC continues to focus on our important safety and security 
mission and demonstrate our principles of good regulation 
through effective, responsive, and timely regulatory actions, 
consistent with our organizational values and our open, 
collaborative work environment.
    I appreciate the Subcommittee's interest in the NRC's 
mission and the work of our dedicated staff, who have continued 
to show resilience, agility, and dedication over the last few 
years as we navigated the changes to our workplace and how we 
accomplish our work.
    I look forward to your questions.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Dorman, thank you very much.
    And, to the panel, thank you very much.
    I am going to yield what would be my time and place myself 
at the back side and yield to the distinguished gentleman, the 
Chairman of the Republican Policy Committee, the gentleman from 
Alabama, Mr. Palmer.
    The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Palmer. Thank the Chairman. Thank the Chairman for 
holding the hearing and for the witnesses being willing to 
appear today.
    There was a recent survey from the Office of Personnel 
Management that said that only one in three Federal employees 
are fully back in the office. And I am just wondering, in your 
agencies, what--Mr. Dorman, you just said that you have reduced 
office space by 28 percent, and then you said it will be 
reduced by 50 percent by what date?
    Mr. Dorman. Sir, for our regional offices, 2025. That is 
based on the lease turnover, so the opportunity to make those 
reductions.
    Mr. Palmer. So, this is nationwide, not just here in D.C.?
    Mr. Dorman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Palmer. What are your space reductions in D.C.?
    Mr. Dorman. Twenty-eight percent, sir.
    Mr. Palmer. Twenty-eight percent in D.C.? Are those 
employees still living in the D.C. area or are they allowed to 
relocate to other cities?
    Mr. Dorman. Those employees are still in the D.C. area, 
sir.
    Mr. Palmer. OK.
    I would like to know from each of you, just a very quick 
answer. It is a percentage. What percentage of the D.C.-based 
Federal employees in your agency relocated out of state during 
the COVID-19 pandemic?
    Mr. Alles? If you do not know the answer, just say you do 
not know the answer, sir.
    Mr. Alles. I would have to get the answer back to you.
    Mr. Palmer. I would appreciate if you would respond to the 
Committee.
    Mr. Alles. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Palmer. Dr. Marrongelle?
    Ms. Marrongelle. We currently have 175 employees located 
outside of the DMV, but I would have to get back to you on the 
amount of who relocated from who was here prior to the 
pandemic.
    Mr. Palmer. Please do so.
    Mr. Gibbs?
    Mr. Gibbs. A similar answer. I would have to get back to 
you with the statistics. But I will tell you that we have 
restructured, and so, while some of our employees are not in 
D.C., they are working at other NASA centers.
    Mr. Palmer. OK.
    And Mr. Dorman?
    Mr. Dorman. Similarly, we will have to get back to you with 
specific details, but we did have--we, like NASA, we have 
employees who worked in----
    Mr. Palmer. I need to move on.
    And what I want to know is--and this is a yes or no--have 
any of your employees relocated outside of D.C. during the 
pandemic or after the pandemic? Have any of your employees 
relocated outside of D.C.?
    Mr. Alles. Yes, sir. For DHS, they have. And they were 
required to----
    Mr. Palmer. That is good. Just----
    Mr. Alles. OK.
    Mr. Palmer. Dr. Marrongelle?
    Ms. Marrongelle. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Palmer. Mr. Gibbs?
    Mr. Gibbs. Yes.
    Mr. Palmer. Mr. Dorman?
    Mr. Dorman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Palmer. OK.
    What I would like to know is, D.C. employees get locality 
pay. Has their pay been adjusted to reflect the change in 
locality?
    Mr. Alles. It has for DHS.
    Ms. Marrongelle. Yes, sir, for NSF.
    Mr. Gibbs. Yes, it has for NASA.
    Mr. Dorman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Palmer. Mr. Dorman?
    One of the things that concerns me, Mr. Chairman, about 
where we are on this issue is President Biden issued a 
declaration saying that the Federal workforce would return to 
office. And shortly after that, though, there were--the 
locations of Federal--of 281,656 Federal employees were 
redacted.
    In addition to that, the names of 350,861 employees were 
also redacted, which I think causes a serious problem in terms 
of oversight. That is about $36 billion in salaries and bonuses 
that are not subject to oversight. It will be very difficult 
for us to exercise oversight.
    And in the last year of the Obama Administration, the names 
of only 2,300 Federal employees were redacted. And there are 
some Federal employees whose names need to be redacted, because 
they serve in sensitive positions.
    But I am concerned about where we are heading in terms of 
the Federal workforce actually showing up for work. And not in 
regard to your agencies, this is a statement about a couple of 
other agencies. One, in particular, is the EPA, where a recent 
survey found that 80 percent of the EPA employees said that 
they would experience personal hardship if the agency changes 
its work policies and requires them to show up for work. That 
is unconscionable.
    In addition--apparently somebody thought that was funny. 
But, in addition, the EPA is now trying to hire another 2,000 
people. And I just--I know the EPA is not here. Hopefully they 
will show up later, Mr. Chairman----
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Palmer [continuing]. To answer some questions about 
this.
    This is a problem. We have heard reports of VA employees 
who are doing their work from a bubble bath, or people going 
out and playing golf and playing pool and going to happy hour.
    I do not think we can have the productivity that we need to 
have if you do not show up for work. And if we do not need you 
here, then we do not need all these Federal buildings.
    And, Mr. Mfume, I think, if you have got several hundred 
thousand Federal employees who are not showing up for work, we 
should not have the traffic problems.
    And so, I do think this should be a bipartisan issue, by 
the way, of what we expect of the Federal workforce in terms of 
showing up for work.
    Mr. Connolly. Would my friend yield, real quickly?
    Mr. Palmer. I yield to my friend.
    Mr. Connolly. The fact that we have congestion means 
Federal workers are going to work. That is the largest source 
of employment in this area. And I can tell you, as someone who 
commutes every day, the difference between now and the depth of 
the pandemic is night and day. It takes me now an hour and a 
half to get to work. In the depth of the pandemic, it took me 
25 minutes.
    So, I mean, the congestion Mr. Mfume faced is a reflection 
of the fact that Federal workers, in fact, are showing up to 
work.
    Thank you for yielding.
    Mr. Palmer. Well, with all due respect to my friend--and 
you are my friend--that is not necessarily a reflection of the 
Federal workforce showing up. It may be a reflection of the 
infrastructure issues that the city has and has had for many 
years. And not necessarily everybody in those cars are Federal 
workers. They are people working for--in other businesses. But 
I do respect your opinion on that.
    With that, Mr. Chairman, I am happy to yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much.
    The distinguished gentleman from Maryland is recognized.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you again, Mr. Chairman.
    I want to thank Mr. Palmer for his observation and the 
observation of my friend from Virginia, Mr. Connolly. I think 
the reason it takes me now an hour, 45 minutes to drive down 
from Baltimore is that I obey the speed limit. So, we will 
leave it there.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Sessions. Do we need to put you under oath?
    Mr. Mfume. No.
    Mr. Sessions. We will leave that one alone, then.
    Mr. Connolly. He is law abiding.
    Mr. Mfume. Right.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes.
    Mr. Palmer. If the gentleman would yield?
    Mr. Mfume. Yes, I would yield.
    Mr. Palmer. If you were a member of the Alabama 
Legislature, that would not be a problem.
    Mr. Mfume. I am going to leave that one alone.
    OK. Mr. Alles, let me start with you.
    Department of Homeland Security's workforce is made up of 
more than 260,000 employees, I think, and spanning 22 different 
agencies. And I referenced FEMA earlier. My district does more 
DHS casework than any other type from any other agency 
represented here today.
    So, could you take a moment to describe to the Committee 
what factors lead to a determination of whether certain DHS 
jobs are more conducive for in-person work or telework or other 
remote options? I am just trying to figure out the calculus 
that goes into that.
    Mr. Alles. Thank you for your question, sir.
    First off, it would be the position description of the job 
itself.
    So, as you can imagine, your law enforcement positions, 
which is a large part of the Department, are not going to be 
eligible for remote work or telework. They have to be in person 
to do their jobs.
    And then, beyond that, most of your--and that would apply 
across TSA, CBP, ICE, Secret Service, a large part of our jobs, 
and even FEMA in some cases, that they cannot telework just 
because of the nature of the work that they have. So, a lot of 
it is involved in the position description itself.
    And then beyond that is whether that position is actually 
telework eligible based on, again, the type of work that they 
are going to do.
    But I think an important part here is, whether they 
telework or do not telework, I want to know that they are 
working. And so, we apply metrics across our different lines of 
business to measure the performance of our employees. And, 
clearly, if they are not performing, then we are going to hold 
them accountable.
    We do that either via suspensions, disciplinary action 
basically. And, in some cases, we have to move to removals if 
we have employees who, in fact, are not performing or have 
other various discipline issues.
    I think a prime concern of everybody on the Committee is--
and I agree with--is, do we get the dollar we paid for out of 
that employee or not? And, certainly, as a taxpayer, I want to 
make sure that I am getting that out of that employee.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you.
    And coming to the other witnesses, can you take a second 
quickly to talk about utilization of different tools to track 
absenteeism and productivity, which get to the heart also of 
this question? What tools are you using, briefly?
    Ms. Marrongelle. I can start. Thank you, sir.
    We, similar to DHS, we have a pay--attendance monitoring 
system. So, every pay period employees are required to attest 
to their time worked, where it was worked, and their 
supervisors need to verify and validate that.
    Prior to partaking in any telework, our employees have to 
undergo training. So, telework is considered a privilege, not a 
right. And that training is for both employees and supervisors. 
So, we are able to track that.
    Similar to my colleague at DHS, we have metrics on that. 
And if there are problems with time and attendance--and, in 
particular, attendance--we are able to take disciplinary 
action.
    Mr. Mfume. And do you do that often, take disciplinary 
action, or does that mean that there are not problems with it?
    Ms. Marrongelle. It occurs occasionally. It is not a 
systemic problem.
    Mr. Mfume. Is it harder to track at the headquarters or at 
the district offices? I would imagine, if you are not here 
physically in Washington, it might be a bit tough to do.
    Ms. Marrongelle. I will defer to my colleagues, because we 
have only one building, in Alexandria.
    Mr. Mfume. Anyone else, district versus the District of 
Columbia in terms of being able to employ the metrics used to 
track productivity and absenteeism?
    Mr. Gibbs. No. I do not think there is any difference at 
NASA between headquarters and our centers.
    Mr. Mfume. So, it is a central sort of reporting.
    Mr. Gibbs. We do it a little bit different at NASA. I think 
it is probably important that we establish this distinction. We 
do not look at a position and say: This position is telework 
eligible. We look at the individuals and look at the work 
necessary to accomplish the mission.
    That employee then has to have a conversation with their 
supervisor saying: This is how I could do telework. Here is how 
I am going to do the work. Here is what we are going to do to 
accomplish the mission.
    Their supervisor then has to agree with that, and then that 
has to go to another level of review prior to granting the 
telework.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you.
    Mr. Gibbs. So, it is structured differently.
    Mr. Mfume. Thank you.
    Mr. Dorman?
    Mr. Dorman. Sir, there is three different things we can 
look at.
    Badging into the buildings, which applies in all of our 
locations.
    We can look at where employees are logging in from. Are 
they logging in from our facility on our network or are they 
coming in through a virtual network?
    And then, third, as was indicated by others, our employees 
report their time biweekly indicating what portion of that time 
was done at their alternate work location. So that is tracking 
where people are working.
    In terms of performance, we have the assignment--work is 
assigned by the supervisors. The expectations on delivery of 
the product is managed by the supervisors, and that is what we 
measure, is the outputs from the employees.
    Mr. Mfume. OK. Thank you.
    My time has expired, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much.
    The distinguished gentleman from Louisiana is recognized.
    Mr. Higgins. I thank the Chairman.
    Mr. Chairman, most of us just spent about a month in our 
district working. We call it recess. The fake news media calls 
it recess. But, trust me, it is not like recess in the fifth 
grade.
    So had countless meetings and townhalls and scores of very 
important conversations with our constituents. And one of the 
very alarming and consistent complaints that we have from our 
constituents is the difficulty to navigate through the Federal 
bureaucracy in whatever way that they are challenged to do so.
    For businesses, including agriculture, it is a big problem. 
EPA, DOL, for our constituency across the board, IRS, Social 
Security, disability claims. Legitimate interactions between 
the citizens that we are sworn to serve and the Federal 
Government that allegedly performs in that manner.
    Now, Congress, through Article I, we establish law and 
appropriate moneys, and the executive branch executes law and 
policy and spends money. That is a basic description of the 
division of powers. So, it is the executive branch and the 
departments and agencies thereof that our citizenry are loudly 
complaining about regarding availability to work their case 
files.
    And we are told at the district level--there is 435 
congressional districts in this country. You know, maybe some 
of my colleagues are hearing something different. I would be 
interested to know that.
    But, from what I understand, across the country every 
congressional district is the same story. We are getting told: 
Oh, the backlog. Well, it is going to take 18 months to 
process. It is going to take 6 months to process this.
    You have to constantly update your own websites to advise 
the citizenry, that we are sworn to serve, how early they need 
to log in, get their application turned in, because there is a 
backlog. Taking a long time. This is how long it takes. And 
that amount of time is getting longer and longer and longer.
    Passports, it is insane. We have had 9 million illegal 
crossings, the floodgates opened on the southern border. I have 
got husbands that cannot marry their wives, cannot get a visa, 
trying to follow the law.
    I have got businesses that cannot get their senior 
engineers in here because they are installing a piece of 
equipment that requires an international team. We cannot get 
the engineer a visa.
    I have got daughters that cannot come to America to care 
for their dying mother because we cannot get her a visa 
legally.
    We might as well send them through Mexico. They can roll 
right in and handle their business.
    And the Federal Government, with all due respect to you 
all--I mean, God bless you, one and all--but you are going to 
sit here today and tell us everything is cool with teleworking? 
It is not cool. We go into buildings in this bizarre realm 
called Washington, DC, and just look at the doors. There is 
nobody there.
    There is old signs on a lot of these doors, says the office 
is closed, we are working from home because of COVID. Little 
mask symbol on the door. You have got old, like, Chinese 
restaurant menus stuck in the door.
    It is not working. We need our executive branch to perform 
in person, in your office, end of story. If I ran things--many 
are glad that I do not--everybody would be back at work and 
performing in the manner in which we were sworn to do.
    Mr. Dorman, I appreciate your service, and because of my 
rant I am going to give you an opportunity in my closing half a 
minute to respond, good sir.
    Mr. Dorman. Thank you, Congressman.
    The NRC remained open, as I said, throughout the pandemic. 
We do not have those transactional services with constituents. 
We work with licensees and applicants. And we also serve the 
American public, as you noted.
    Any member of the public can go to our website, and we have 
a hotline. And that hotline was manned 24/7 throughout the 
pandemic and is today. So, we are accessible----
    Mr. Higgins. I appreciate your response, but, generally 
speaking, your website operations, they do not work for a 
regular American. It takes hours and hours. It says, if you 
have a problem, make a phone call. You get on a phone call, you 
are on hold for 4 hours, then you are disconnected.
    I am telling you, it does not work.
    So, Mr. Chairman, my time has expired. Thank you for this 
hearing today. Hopefully we can have another.
    I yield.
    Mr. Connolly. Mr. Chairman, an inquiry?
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
    Does the gentleman seek time?
    Mr. Connolly. Just to inquire.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Connolly. I thank the Chair.
    Is it not true that, in fact, with respect to passport 
operations, passport employees are not allowed to telework?
    Mr. Sessions. Well, I, quite honestly----
    Mr. Connolly. Is that not the case?
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. I do not have that direct 
answer. But what I would say to you is the gentleman remembers 
where we did have a hearing with, specifically, the young 
Ambassador who handles that methodology, and she did recognize 
they have problems.
    Mr. Connolly. A problem. I agree.
    Mr. Sessions. And she did. And that was what I think could 
be said by Mr. Higgins, perhaps others, that there are places 
where problems are apparent to people.
    And I would remind the gentleman, that he would remind me 
if I did not, that we are working together on that issue and 
that she, the young Ambassador, gave us notice she would fix 
that problem by the end of September.
    Mr. Connolly. The Chair is correct that----
    Mr. Sessions. That day comes very near, and we will then 
reopen that issue. And I encourage the gentleman to be a part 
of that. And I respectfully thank him for his feedback.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you. And my only point was if there is 
a problem, we agree, but it is not about telework.
    I thank the Chair.
    Mr. Sessions. Well, and I agree with the gentleman. It is 
their problem to fix the problem. It is our issue that we have 
people that abound who provide us feedback, too. And the 
gentleman knows that. And I do respect and appreciate his 
engagement.
    The distinguished gentlewoman from Washington, DC, the 
gentlewoman, Ms. Norton, is recognized.
    Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate this 
hearing.
    And I would like to use my time to highlight the critical 
work performed by Federal employees every single day and to 
thank the Federal employees who are testifying today.
    I have introduced a resolution that highlights their 
important work. As I note in that resolution, Federal employees 
should be applauded for their tireless work and extensive 
efforts on behalf of the American people. Many of them live in 
the Nation's Capital and the national capital region.
    Thousands of civil Federal employees have given their lives 
in the line of duty for their country. Federal employees have 
supported, defended, and been indispensable to the progress the 
United States has achieved through times of war and peace, 
recession and prosperity, and global instability and 
uncertainty.
    From scientific advancements, to medical research, to 
protecting the health and safety of the public, Federal 
employees have been indispensable. They bring benefits to the 
public welfare, to the progress of democracy, and to the United 
States as a whole.
    Instead of celebrating Federal employees, some of my 
friends on the other side attack and talk derisively about them 
and want to shut down the Federal Government on October the 
1st, all for purely partisan political reasons.
    A shutdown would harm critical programs and delay the 
paychecks of Federal employees causing great harm to these 
public servants and the public. Republicans want to 
dramatically cut Federal spending, which would harm critical 
programs and Federal workers. Some Republicans have indicated 
they want to gut the civil service system, which ensures a 
nonpartisan, merit-based, professional Federal workforce, and 
to turn it into a patronage system.
    It is time we recognize the hard work of Federal employees. 
For example, I have introduced a bill aimed at combating 
Federal pay compression. It will allow Federal employees who 
reach the pay cap in their pay system to receive the base 
locality pay adjustments they would otherwise be entitled to. 
This is something they deserve.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back my time.
    Mr. Sessions. The distinguished gentlewoman yields back her 
time. Thank you very much.
    The gentleman, Mr. Edwards, is recognized.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Dr. Marrongelle, you testified that employees are asked to 
come back to work 4 days per pay period. What--how many days 
are in a pay period?
    Ms. Marrongelle. There are 10 days in a pay period.
    Mr. Edwards. Ten days. So why are they asked to come back 4 
days?
    Ms. Marrongelle. Thank you for the question. As I 
mentioned, we had a strong telework policy in place since 2004, 
so prior to the pandemic. And we were already in 2018, 2019, 
looking at ways to expand that for our workforce and enhance 
that. The pandemic certainly accelerated that against a 
timeline that we had----
    Mr. Edwards. Excuse me, because I am on a clock. I have got 
to get to the point. What are the--what are employees expected 
to do in those 4 days that they could not do from their sofa or 
comfort of wherever they are at?
    Ms. Marrongelle. Thank you for clarifying. So, during those 
days our employees are expected to collaborate, work together, 
do the types of mentoring, network building within the agency. 
That is more difficult to do when they are not onsite.
    Mr. Edwards. And so why is 4 days the correct number in 
order to be able to collaborate with one another?
    Ms. Marrongelle. Well, unfortunately, there is no exact 
science that points to a correct number. We know that it needs 
to be more than what we--or we feel like it needs to be more 
than what we have now, which is 2 days per pay period, and so, 
we are moving to 4 as a next point.
    Mr. Edwards. All right. Thank you.
    So, for all of you, I would just like to ask, as quickly as 
you could answer, from my perspective, in going through the 
pandemic, because to a large degree, I did some telework as 
well, and like many of you, I have participated in hundreds of 
Zoom meetings. And I found it interesting to watch what was 
going on, on the other side of these Zoom meetings, and it 
causes me to question the productivity of the person on the 
other side of that Zoom meeting.
    I would see folks dealing with their pets, washing their 
dishes, I would see laundry stacked up on the couch, and I 
cannot help but think that we are not getting the maximum 
productivity from folks when they are working from home. I know 
what my own tendencies are. I get lost in walking the dog, or 
the television is on and I get caught up in that. And so, what 
measures of productivity have you put into place to ensure that 
when folks are working at home, we get the same output as if 
they were in the office for these 4 days? Mr. Alles?
    Mr. Alles. Thank you for your question, sir. I think--a 
couple of things. I will talk about measurements here in a 
second. To me, time present is not work. I mean, they can be at 
their desk in the office not accomplishing their work, they can 
be at home not accomplishing their work, so I want to measure 
what they are doing output-wise. And we do that across our 
lines of business and also across our different components.
    So, a couple of examples. Our obligation rates for the 
money that Congress generously provides us stay high, in the 
high 99 percent rate. In terms of our contract spending, it has 
actually risen across the pandemic from $18 billion in Fiscal 
Year 1918 to $22 billion in Fiscal Year 1923. FOIA is always a 
particular concern for folks, have risen from $392,000 in 1920 
to $535,000 in Fiscal Year 1923.
    So, I am using different metrics. I want to see their 
performance that they are actually producing. If they are in 
the office or not--there are reasons to be in the office. I 
talked with the Chairman earlier about engineering that is done 
on our ships. It needs to be done in person, that kind of ready 
access to the person. But otherwise, I want to see what their 
performance output is.
    Mr. Edwards. And so, I am clearly going to run out of time 
here, so I will stick with you, Mr. Alles. When they are at 
work, there is the possibility that someone is looking over 
their shoulder, and they know if that employee is on their 
Facebook, or they are watching funny cat videos or if they are 
dealing with their email or if they are working on a 
spreadsheet, what assurances do you have that folks are totally 
engaged in their work when they are at home and not distracted 
by so many other extraneous activities?
    Mr. Alles. So, I think briefly, as you say, they can be 
distracted. So, I want my supervisors to be engaged in the work 
they are performing and evaluating their output very candidly. 
That is the best thing I can do. But that applies in the office 
too, sir.
    Mr. Edwards. Yes. Do you have the ability to monitor 
equipment when somebody is at home to know how many hours they 
spent on programs that are not authorized or used in the normal 
course of their business?
    Mr. Alles. We can monitor what they are doing on the 
internet, that is correct, sir. And we also have what is called 
an insider threat program that monitors employees' use of their 
classified and unclassified networks as a counterintelligence 
method.
    Mr. Edwards. All right. Thank you.
    Mr. Chair, I see I am out of time, so I will yield.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much.
    The distinguished gentleman from Florida is recognized.
    Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Federal agencies carry out critical missions of all kinds. 
In Florida alone, civil servants have roles like nuclear 
inspectors, emergency management professionals, and certain 
rocket scientists that are vital and probably cannot be done 
remotely. However, there are many vital roles that can be done 
remotely.
    It is no secret that hurricane season hits Florida harder 
than most each year. By the projections from most scientists, 
Florida is facing rising sea levels and increasingly violent 
hurricanes. This summer, ocean temperatures off the coast 
reached record levels, climbing to over 100 degrees, hot tub 
levels.
    In Florida, we know all too well that crisis can happen at 
any moment, from a global pandemic to extreme weather events, 
which are becoming all too common. The Federal Government has 
to remain operational during these times, and the beautiful 
thing about that, including telework as part of the solution, 
is what the data shows. It is actually better for productivity. 
That is right, telework is actually better for productivity, 
which is borne out of the fact that more than 70 percent of 
Federal employees reported that telework had improved 
productivity at their agency a great deal.
    No. 2, it is actually better economically. The General 
Services Administration, the Federal agency that provides real 
estate, discovered that in a single year, the Federal 
Government saved more than $1 billion in cost from the reduced 
office space. So, I think there can be some bipartisanship 
around that, because I hear a lot from my colleagues on the 
other side of the aisle about saving money. They want to talk 
about SNAPs and food stamps; I think office space makes a lot 
of sense too.
    The Office of Personnel Management, the Federal agency that 
manages the Federal workforce, also found that agencies 
experience significant savings related to transit commuting 
costs as well as reduced employee absences because of increased 
telework. And it is actually better for recruitment and 
retention.
    Take NASA, for instance, which I--during my district work 
period, I got to visit the mobile launcher for Artemis II. I am 
really excited about that. Hopefully, the government does not 
shut down, because I hear that can push back our launch date 
quite a bit. In the agency's written response to the Committee, 
NASA indicated that having a geographically dispersed telework-
ready force has helped them maintain the continuity of 
operations in case of an emergency, including regional weather 
events.
    Mr. Gibbs, the mission support directorate includes the 
Office of Human Capital Management, correct?
    Mr. Gibbs. It does.
    Mr. Frost. And what is the mission of this office?
    Mr. Gibbs. So human capital, their--if you ask what does 
human capital do, their first mission, take care of the people 
of NASA. That is their ultimate responsibility for the agency.
    Mr. Frost. And it is to ensure that NASA has top talent, 
right?
    Mr. Gibbs. Absolutely, 100 percent, to make sure we have 
the right minds to compete, and to make sure we can complete a 
very technologically challenging mission and one that is rather 
unforgiving.
    Mr. Frost. What other organizations or companies does NASA 
have to compete with for top talent?
    Mr. Gibbs. Pretty much everyone fundamentally. We are 
recognized as a leader in the aerospace, engineering, science 
exploration world. We see everyone from venture capitalists to 
other engineering organizations, to you name it, looking at our 
talent as an opportunity to bring in a new way of thinking to 
their business process.
    Mr. Frost. Virgin Galactic, SpaceX, right?
    Mr. Gibbs. 100 percent.
    Mr. Frost. For 5 straight years, NASA has been selected as 
the best place to work in the Federal----
    Mr. Gibbs. Correction, it is 11, just so we are clear.
    Mr. Frost. Oh, 11, OK, I am sorry. Eleven straight years, 
NASA has been selected as the best place to work in the Federal 
Government, so I think you know a thing or two about what it 
takes to attract top talent. Do these other employers have 
telework policies, like SpaceX, for instance?
    Mr. Gibbs. It is all over the board, honestly. We looked at 
the top 100 companies across the United States, and honestly, 
their telework and workplace flexibilities are all over the 
board.
    Mr. Frost. All over the board. SpaceX and Virgin Galactic, 
for instance, are hirering roles that permit telework every 
single week. So, the private sector has caught on to this. And 
I can tell you, we know what pushes the private sector is 
productivity and the bottom line, right?
    Mr. Gibbs. Correct.
    Mr. Frost. And so, they have noticed this, and they have 
taken advantage of it. I do not want us to fall behind. I do 
not want NASA to fall behind. I do not want the Federal 
Government to fall behind in looking at the future of how work 
is going to look like, so we can both save money, recruit the 
best talent, and have the retention that we need to complete 
the difficult missions ahead of us.
    Many talented minds have committed themselves to working in 
public service. I also want to say, I find it pretty offensive 
that one of my colleagues would insinuate that Federal 
employees, just because they are taking advantage and using 
telework policies, are somehow not working. We are talking 
about working-class Americans who have dedicated their life to 
public service.
    In fact, all of our constituent service teams cannot do 
jack without the Federal employees on the other side of the 
phone line that we are helping our constituents get connected 
to. And so, I want to thank all of our Federal employees for 
all their work. Telework is one tool in the toolbox to maintain 
continuity and attract cutting-edge talent. Thank you. And I 
yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
    The distinguished gentleman, Mr. Burchett, is recognized.
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate those 
adjectives.
    Mr. Alles, is that how you pronounce your name, correct, 
sir?
    Mr. Alles. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Burchett. You go by Tex? It says in my notes you go by 
Tex. Is that correct?
    Mr. Alles. That is correct, sir.
    Mr. Burchett. All right. Well, Tex, let me ask you a 
question. Which agencies within the Department--in your 
department are still working remotely?
    Mr. Alles. All the agencies have teleworkers. Some--and I 
want to be careful here, I think most of them have remote 
workers. All of them have some form of telework.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. My staff, and that includes me, we 
continue to have issues getting timely responses from the 
United States Citizenship and Immigration Services. What are 
you all doing to improve those response times for this agency?
    Mr. Alles. So, Citizenship and Immigration Services, sir, 
is on track this year to have a 15 percent higher completion 
rate on their employment authorization documents, so they are 
making progress there. They have also----
    Mr. Burchett. I mean, that is their goal, or that is what 
they are actually doing?
    Mr. Alles. That is what they are actually doing.
    Mr. Burchett. OK.
    Mr. Alles. So, that is what they are actually doing. And 
also, they are improving their processes on naturalization. 
This will be our highest year of naturalizations, over 1 
million is what is on track for them so far. And let me just 
verify my numbers there, sir.
    [Pause.]
    Mr. Burchett. Do you want to get back to me on that?
    Mr. Alles. No, that is correct. 1,076,000 is what they are 
looking at this year.
    Mr. Burchett. How has the Department of Homeland Security 
implemented new measures during the switch to telework to 
ensure the same level of border security as we had in pre-
COVID? That is the kind of the thing you cannot do from your 
couch.
    Mr. Alles. So, I think, as we described before, depending 
on the job description, the job they are performing, it could 
not perform remotely. So, when we talk about border security, 
those are all in-person employees every day of the week. That 
applies in other areas, such as the Secret Service, across my 
HSI investigators at ICE. These are going to be employees that 
have to be onsite every day, as you would expect in the law 
enforcement realm. But they are----
    Mr. Burchett. Sure.
    Mr. Alles [continuing]. Supported in the back office by 
some employees that are, in fact, teleworking.
    Mr. Burchett. Well, has that--going along the same lines, I 
think you have more or less answered it, but has the Homeland 
Security's COVID era telework policies, have they impacted our 
ground surveillance at the southern border? There is not much 
at the southern border, but--that I feel like you all are 
doing, but is it--has it impacted it any?
    Mr. Alles. I would have to get back to you and ask CBP on 
that one, sir. I do not think it has, but I would actually need 
to verify with them.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. Mr. Dorman, were nuclear regulatory 
commission inspections impacted by the COVID-era telework 
policies?
    Mr. Dorman. Congressman, not by the telework policies. 
During the height of the pandemic, we worked carefully to 
manage the risk to our inspectors as well as to the control 
room operators and other plant staff who ensure the safety of 
the plant every day to make sure we were not putting them at 
risk during peaks of COVID in the community. But our telework 
policy did not impact our inspection.
    Mr. Burchett. OK. Obviously, they would not be doing that 
from the comfort of their homes. They would have to be there, 
correct? Or, I mean, you know, because they are reading 
monitors, and could they read the monitors in their house and--
--
    Mr. Dorman. So, we have worked with licensees to get the 
technology so that our inspectors are able to monitor plant 
status remotely, and also access the licensee's records systems 
remotely. But for our resident inspectors, whose duty station 
is at the nuclear power plant, they are expected to be at the 
nuclear power plant. And so, their presence is a component, 
their availability to plant staff who may have a concern about 
operations are key considerations. So, yes, our resident 
inspectors are expected to be at the plant.
    Mr. Burchett. I think that is a wise decision, less 
distractions, less things going on, and they can keep focused 
on it.
    What are your all's telework policies?
    Mr. Dorman. So, our telework policies----
    Mr. Burchett. Briefly. Briefly, if you would.
    Mr. Dorman. Yes, sir. So, we have the full suite of the 
telework tools, so somebody can be full-time in office. There 
are options for remote work. We have about six percent of our 
workforce is remote. In between--if your proposal does not 
involve a change to your duty station, basically the work model 
that we are planning to put in place would allow you to work 
that out with your first-line supervisor based on the nature of 
your work.
    And then we focus on, in the implementation, presence with 
purpose. What are the reasons that we need to come together to 
optimize our work and work out the details day by day, week by 
week, on bringing people together to do that--do our work the 
best.
    Mr. Burchett. Thank you. I have gone over.
    Mr. Chairman, I would just state for the record, I do not 
like the telework situation, even the mayor of Washington, DC. 
pleaded with the President of the United States about sending 
folks back to work. The economic impact it is having on 
Washington, DC, in this area, is pretty resounding. I think you 
just walk down and see the restaurants that are no longer 
there, the mom-and-pop shops that are gone, so I think at some 
point we need to address this. But I do realize, like electric 
vehicles, as much as I do not like them, I think it is going to 
be--we better embrace it at some point, because it is part of 
the future. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Sessions. The distinguished gentleman yields back his 
time. And the Chairman did hear your comments, and that is part 
of the discussion and why you have been so important to this 
conversation. I appreciate the gentleman.
    The distinguished gentlewoman from Dallas is recognized, 
Ms. Crockett.
    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.
    I am going to go at this a little bit differently. First of 
all, let me thank each and every one of you for your service to 
our country. And I think that, as Members of Congress, we 
should do everything that we can to support you, and we should 
listen to you, because this is the work that you do every day, 
and it is why we bring you in to testify. Seemingly, everyone 
has different ideas of what you do instead of wanting to listen 
to you.
    But nevertheless, I think we could save a lot of time if 
Congress worked remotely, because I know--time and money, 
because I know that it takes me almost 3 hours to get here from 
Dallas. I have got another freshman colleague that is from 
Hawaii, and we all know what happened in Hawaii here recently. 
And she travels and leaves her husband and her two boys to get 
here.
    Yet, seemingly showing up to work does not necessarily mean 
that you are going to get anything done, because the last time 
I checked, we are currently facing a government shutdown. It is 
pending. And people have shown up, but they have not shown up 
to actually do the work. So, we are concerned about telework, 
but what we really need to be concerned about is whether or not 
we are going to do our work when we are in the building, 
because we are the ones that are supposed to make sure that we 
pass appropriations bills so that we can fund what you are 
doing as we talk about backlogs.
    So, let me talk about some of the reasons for some of the 
backlogs that have been brought up. By a show of hands, I am 
curious to know, any of your agencies, are they at 100 percent 
capacity as it relates to having the workforce that you need?
    No one? Ain't none of you all got 100--oh, OK. OK. So, 
maybe you need some money so that you can hire some people. Let 
me also ask you, and I know that it was brought up a little bit 
earlier, I believe it was you, Mr. Dorman, that talked about 
the fact that you are looking at what private industry is doing 
and competing.
    Is it not true--and anyone who feels like I am stating a 
falsehood, please say something. Is it not true, that the 
majority of private industry is offering flexibility and better 
pay than the Federal Government right now?
    OK. All right. So, it is hard to compete, because, No. 1, 
we are not giving you all no money; No. 2, we are showing up 
every day, but we are not doing our jobs because we seemingly 
are about to shut down, because I do not know how you--I am 
just a freshman. But from what I have been told, I do not know 
how we are going to get through 12 appropriations bills in all 
this time, especially when we keep cutting votes back because 
they do not have the votes.
    So, we may need to focus on how we can do better at our 
jobs and support you so that you all can take care of our 
constituents. So, with that, there are options on the table. 
Republicans and Democrats, we need to come together and find 
common ground, and we did this a little earlier this year.
    I was working on a retention option, because in June, I led 
a letter to the Secretaries of Defense and State and the OPM 
director about concerns regarding the retention of federally 
employed military spouses. This letter was co-led by a 
Republican actually on my Oversight Committee.
    I also introduced an amendment to the NDAA directing the 
Secretary of Defense to provide employment flexibility to 
military spouses deployed by the Department. This amendment was 
cosponsored by several Republicans, including, again, one on 
Oversight.
    The military is currently facing a recruitment crisis. This 
is why it is important--more important than ever that we retain 
current military families. Over one-third of Active-Duty 
military families cite difficulties securing spousal employment 
as a reason for leaving the service. In fact, in the past 
decade, military spouses have experienced persistently high 
unemployment rates hovering around 21 percent, nearly seven 
times the national average.
    Consider Jessica, a military spouse of 19 years, currently 
stationed at Fort Bliss, Texas, with her Active-Duty spouse. 
Jessica is a senior passport specialist with the State 
Department. Her husband recently submitted his Army retirement 
packet because his transfer order meant Jessica would not be 
able to work at State because it does not offer remote or 
telework flexibilities.
    How is this protecting our country? And I am sure the 
majority of you never heard about this bipartisan amendment. 
You heard about all the other trash that they wanted to put on 
the Floor that had nothing to do with keeping our country safe. 
What we need to do is focus in on the priorities, and the 
priorities are not culture wars. That is not the priorities.
    The priorities are making sure that people are working and 
people are safe. And regardless of what the President said--and 
I love the President. I support him, let me say that right 
now--COVID is still around. We have Members that are out right 
now because they are sick with COVID. So, for those that missed 
the memo, COVID does still exist, and these flexibilities allow 
people to not only be safe, but they also make sure that we are 
keeping our country safe.
    So, thank you for what you do every day. Thank you for 
putting up with these questions. Thank you for fighting for a 
country that somehow does not seem like it is fighting half as 
hard for you and your employees.
    And with that, I would just ask for unanimous consent to 
enter into the record a statement from the Parallel 
Professionals, EFM, MOH, and the U.S. Department of State 
employee organizations for the spouses, partners of Foreign 
Service professionals, who are civil servants, government 
contractors, and who work at U.S. missions abroad, Mr. 
Chairman.
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection, that will be entered into 
the record. Thank you very much.
    Ms. Crockett. And I will yield.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time.
    The distinguished gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Biggs, is 
recognized.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I am sure that 
nobody who offered some of those other amendments thought they 
were trash. I think they probably thought they were pretty 
good.
    But let us just talk about just a couple things I need to 
get into the record, Mr. Chairman. First of all, from Space 
Magazine, from June 2, 2022, ``Elon Musk tells SpaceX, Tesla 
workers they must be in the office at least 40 hours a week.'' 
And also, a report from the GAO entitled, ``Federal Real 
Property: Preliminary Results Show Federal Buildings Remain 
Underutilized Due to Longstanding Challenges and Increased 
Telework.'' So----
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection, that will be entered in 
the record.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And just to respond to my colleagues talking about 
congestion, there are more people who come in every day because 
D.C. is open, so you have got a lot of tourists coming in as 
well, and the buses really provide the congestion. And I do not 
know what happened last Tuesday, but that was ridiculous on 
395.
    But anyway, let us just talk about the buildings for a 
second and the impact on telework. For me, the biggest question 
is productivity and constituent satisfaction in their 
interaction with the Federal agency. That is--those are the two 
areas that really drive my thoughts on this matter.
    But I want to give it some context, because this is 
testimony from earlier this year: The Federal Government spends 
about $2 billion a year to operate and maintain Federal office 
buildings regardless of the building's utilization, $2 billion 
regardless of how much they are used, and we lease another $5 
billion worth of buildings.
    Now, why is that important? We are leasing 511 million 
square feet of office space. That is what we get to. But of 
that amount, in 1,500 federally owned buildings, what we get to 
is this: 17 of the 24 Federal agencies use, on average, 25 
percent or less of the capacity of their headquarter building, 
25 percent or less, and the highest range is still below 50 
percent.
    So, what that means is, we are spending a bucket load of 
money that we either do not need to, should not need to, and we 
need to lessen our footprint. The other thing is, the 
productivity and the constituent interface that we have, 
everybody up here probably gets calls every week like I do, we 
are having trouble with passports, we are having trouble with, 
you name it, OSHA, whatever it may be. And you guys were 
talking about--all of you were talking about different measures 
of productivity.
    And, Mr. Alles, you talked about somebody could even be 
removed. So, I am wondering, how many people have been removed 
for failing to perform under teleworking conditions?
    Mr. Alles. I cannot address specifically teleworking 
themselves, sir. I can tell you that in fiscal year----
    Mr. Biggs. Well, this is--Mr. Alles, I do not mean to 
interrupt. Well, I do mean to interrupt. I do not want to be 
rude about it. But we are talking about teleworking, so that 
would be--I would be interested in that, because all of you 
said you have measures of productivity, you have measures----
    Mr. Alles. Right.
    Mr. Biggs [continuing]. If somebody is watching the cat 
videos or whatever, you have ways to track and measure it. Some 
of you have said, well, we want the supervisor to just make 
sure that the work is getting done.
    Look, Congress itself, remember, we are sitting in a 
hearing. I would always come. I never missed a day. We are in--
we are doing a Zoom meeting one time. I am sitting in the 
building in this room, and there is a guy, and we are watching 
on the screen, and he Is sitting there in his pajamas in a bed, 
right. There--you know, other people are showing up on the 
boats. That is--that doesn't deliver good constituent services.
    So, I want to know what really is a real metric for 
determining whether constituents are satisfied. How are you 
measuring whether constituents are--that you deal with, who you 
interface with, are receiving proper and adequate service? How 
do we do it? Let us start with Mr. Dorman and then go down, 
please.
    Mr. Dorman. Yes, sir. I think probably the best analog 
there is our licensing caseload. And when we get an application 
from a licensee or applicant, we establish a schedule for 
review and a level of effort associated with it because we are 
a fee recovery agency, and we communicate that to the 
licensees. And so, we measure at the individual level what 
their contribution is to the actions, and we roll it up at the 
program level and look at are we meeting our metrics on that. 
So that is the productivity piece of it.
    Mr. Biggs. So just real quick, how has that changed pre-
COVID to now, I mean, when you went to teleworking?
    Mr. Dorman. We have sustained, and, I would say, even 
slightly improved, our performance in that area.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman, can the rest answer the question?
    Mr. Sessions. Absolutely. The gentleman will be extended 
that time to receive the answers that he has asked--is seeking.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Gibbs. At NASA, we are not a constituent-facing serving 
organization or agency. That is not necessarily what our 
mission is. So, those metrics are a little bit different. But I 
will tell you that we look at telework and remote work and 
onsite work the same. The same rules apply. The same 
expectations of professionalism apply. The same rules of making 
sure you get your job done and service the mission apply.
    NASA is a very matrixed organization heavily leveraged on a 
contracted workforce. At every level of our organization there 
are checkpoints, and there are sort of measures to ensure that 
we are performing according to plan, so the individual reports 
through an organization and through a mission directorate and 
to the agency. And at the agency level, we have six independent 
measures looking at health, and we have six measures looking at 
overall agency performance.
    I will tell you, throughout the pandemic, there were costs 
of getting our work done, as there were in all of our lives. 
But the cost of getting the work done and things that had to be 
overcome, as we all had to do, were overcome, and we were able 
to accomplish amazing things for the American public.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Doctor?
    Ms. Marrongelle. At NSF, similar to NASA, we are not a 
constituent-facing agency. One of our measures of productivity 
is number of proposals processed. That number peaked in 2021 
when we were at maximum telework throughout the agency. That is 
not the same, of course, as measuring the effectiveness of the 
agency. We have new metrics in place to understand how we are 
reaching out and attracting in institutions who have not had 
track records with NSF to NSF, and in states like EPSCoR states 
and others, and we are embarking on a new customer service 
experience program to understand how our work with our 
customers, our principal investigators, is effective.
    Mr. Biggs. Look forward to seeing a copy of those 
guidelines, please.
    Mr. Alles. For DHS, sir, for TSA, they have now reached, in 
the Fiscal Year 1923, they have reached and exceeded Fiscal 
Year 1919 pre-pandemic levels. Six of our 10 record throughput 
days at airports have occurred this year, and the service 
continues uninterrupted.
    I would point out for FEMA, they have had 487 deployments 
this year involving 44,184 FEMA personnel to serve the American 
people. TSA precheck, typically 600 enrollment locations, you 
get your service in less than 2 weeks. You can get an 
appointment and you get your known traveler number no more than 
3 to 5 days after that. My chief of staff recently just 
experienced that herself. So, I think there are metrics we use 
to measure performance, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Sessions. Before the gentleman yields, would the 
gentleman like to cover those things with this panel that he is 
interested in receiving information back for, or would you like 
for me to attempt to give that dialog at the end?
    Mr. Biggs. I think that would be better if you gave it at 
the end. And, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate you extending that 
courtesy. I think what I am intending to do is write maybe a 
followup letter with regard to some of the information that I 
have heard here today. And I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much.
    The gentlewoman from Pennsylvania is recognized.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The lifeblood of our Federal Government is its people, and 
to attract and retain those workers, the Federal Government has 
to use every tool and innovation available to build a Federal 
workforce that reflects the people they serve. This country's 
workforce changed during COVID-19 pandemic, and we should 
acknowledge and accommodate that rather than pushing to move 
backward and holding hearings against it.
    Evidence shows that Federal agencies offering telework and 
remote work opportunities have expanded their pool of talented 
job applicants when compared to those who have not offered 
telework. During a March hearing before this Committee, OPM 
Director Karen Aruja said that remote jobs posted on the 
USAJobs website between June and October 22d of last year had, 
quote, 17 times more applications than non-remote jobs, 
significantly more applications from military spouse eligible 
applicants as compared to non-remote jobs, that is on average 
25.2 applications as opposed to 1.4 applications, a higher 
percentage of female and minoritized candidates as compared to 
non-remote postings, and a greater geographic diversity with 
applications from candidates in 37 different states as compared 
to just seven states for non-remote postings.
    Telework and remote work availability has also opened doors 
to people with disabilities. Even before the pandemic, the 
Office of Personnel Management recommended agencies publicize 
workplace flexibilities, including telework, to make their 
organizations more attractive to candidates with disabilities, 
and to better retain those employees. And the Federal 
Government can do even more to recruit and retain employees 
from underrepresented groups.
    Dr. Marrongelle, what role did telework play at the 
National Science Foundation during the pandemic?
    Ms. Marrongelle. Because our staff were already familiar 
with telework and had used telework prior to the pandemic, we 
were easily able to transition into full telework mode. We did 
not miss a beat as an agency. As I mentioned, we processed a 
record number of proposals in 2021 when our staff were 
operating at full telework mode.
    Ms. Lee. Why is the recruitment and retention of diverse 
employees important to the National Science Foundation?
    Ms. Marrongelle. It is incredibly important. It is 
important for national and economic security of our country. 
Because we fund science at the cutting edge, keeping us a 
global leader, we have to maintain our ability to attract and 
retain the best and brightest at the National Science 
Foundation. Telework flexibilities are a part of that type of 
recruitment and retention.
    Ms. Lee. And one last question very quickly. Has the 
National Science Foundation's telework policies allowed the 
agency to have broader outreach to stakeholders? More 
specifically, did it find that telework helped expand the 
agency's hubs?
    Ms. Marrongelle. Yes, absolutely. Because we have one 
central location in Alexandria, we--prior to the pandemic, we 
had done a lot of travel to states which was somewhat limited. 
Because of the new technologies and flexibilities, we have been 
able to, over tenfold, increase our outreach to constituents, 
especially those that have not had a track record with NSF.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you.
    Mr. Gibbs, in documents provided to the Committee, NASA 
said that telework has provided, quote, ``a tremendous 
opportunity for NASA to remain competitive in the modern job 
market, especially when attempting to attract highly skilled 
employees.'' How has telework helped NASA stay competitive with 
the private sector?
    Mr. Gibbs. I would like to answer that in a little bit 
different order----
    Ms. Lee. Please.
    Mr. Gibbs [continuing]. If you do not mind, ma'am. I would 
like to talk about internships and the impact. One of our 
missions at NASA is inspiring the next generation of engineers, 
scientists, explorers that support our Nation's interests. 
Working through the tools we developed or really perfected or 
got better at, honestly, during the pandemic, we were able to 
increase our internship opportunity from the 10 geographically 
located areas to every state in the union. We were able to 
increase the diversity of those populations. We were able to 
increase and get participation from across the country.
    So, when you are looking at it from a competitive 
perspective, starting with interns at NASA, you have changed 
the pool from that one local geographic area to the entire 
Nation. Our success, our ability to do the great things that 
this Nation asks us to do, to put the first woman and next man, 
first man of color on the moon, rely on sort of building this 
incredibly diverse workforce that can accomplish amazing 
things.
    So, I will tell you, from our perspective, there was--there 
is opportunity there, and we saw it in our interns.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you so much for lifting up that particular 
angle on perspective.
    Workforce diversity fosters innovative solutions and better 
problem-solving capabilities. As Representatives, we should be 
working to help foster a workforce that most effectively serves 
our constituents and this Nation, rather than hindering it, 
like this hearing is attempting to do.
    Telework attracts individuals regardless of race, location, 
religion, and it can offer opportunities to those who have 
disabilities or lives overseas or military spouses, or simply 
need to be near their families. Why would we hamstring our 
Federal agencies by eliminating a powerful tool to recruit a 
talented workforce that serves our Nation?
    I thank the panel, and I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time.
    The distinguished gentlewoman from Colorado is recognized.
    Mrs. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you to the witnesses for being here today.
    Mr. Dorman, on August 4, 2023, White House Chief of Staff, 
Jeff Zients, sent an email stressing the importance of 
increased in-person work, stating increasing in-person work is 
a priority for President Biden to, quote, ``deliver better 
results for the American people,'' end quote, by improving 
teamwork and productivity within the Federal workforce, which 
contradicts the previous statements.
    Folks have argued that the email was only sent as a result 
of a fairly aggressive letter that was sent from this 
Committee, from the Oversight and Accountability Committee, by 
myself, Chairman Comer, and Subcommittee Chairman Sessions. Was 
there any confusion within your agency after this change of 
tone?
    Mr. Dorman. I think we did reach out to OMB to seek 
clarification, Congresswoman, because in response to OMB M-
2315, which calls for significant increase in meaningful in-
person presence, the NRC had significantly increased our in-
person presence in November 2021. And the plan that we provided 
to OMB in May, in response to that memo, and got OMB's 
feedback, we were wondering if this email was suggesting a 
change in expectation. And so, we circled back with OMB and 
confirmed that their expectation was that we move forward with 
the plan that we had provided to them, and they were really 
looking for, OK, now implement.
    Mrs. Boebert. OK. And did the White House email result in 
more employees in your agency actually getting back to work in 
person, working full-time? And if it did, then what is that 
percentage of your workforce that is back to work, working in 
person 5 days a week?
    Mr. Dorman. Congresswoman, I do not have that specific 
percentage, but in the first half of this calendar year, 
approximately 60 percent of NRC's work was in-person work. And 
the--that memo did not--as I indicated, that did not change 
anything because we had already had our plan, gotten feedback 
from OMB, and were working toward implementation of it.
    Mrs. Boebert. And are you still bringing more employees 
back to work in person?
    Mr. Dorman. So, our model at this point is focusing on the 
purpose of the in-person presence. So, we are really looking at 
how we are bringing people back and making sure that it has 
actually got the meaningful engagement so that we are 
optimizing the way we are working in a hybrid environment.
    Mrs. Boebert. OK. And, Tex, could you please tell me what 
the agency's telework policies were prior to COVID?
    Mr. Alles. So, telework, again, was--well, like now, and 
thank you for the question, was handled still on a case-by-case 
basis. There was not as much telework prior to the pandemic. 
That has increased during the pandemic. We fortunately equipped 
our employees with equipment before the pandemic to enable them 
to work remotely, so it was somewhat seamless from that 
standpoint. But it was a very low rate of telework before the 
pandemic.
    And then post-pandemic, it stayed at a higher rate. 
Currently, as indicated in the statement, we are 85 percent 
spend the majority of their time in the office, and then 15 
percent are in a telework status, which is typically 2 days per 
pay period.
    Mrs. Boebert. So, what was the agency's telework policy 
when they were at their maximum with telework?
    Mr. Alles. I would have to get the exact number to you. 
That would have been during Fiscal Year 2020 when everybody 
went out for the pandemic.
    Mrs. Boebert. And were you monitoring what employees were 
actually logging on and producing work products?
    Mr. Alles. So, I was--I think the way that is done is via 
the office performance metrics.
    Mrs. Boebert. And there was policies in place to track 
that, to ensure that employees were working during the time 
that they were home tele----
    Mr. Alles. The supervisors are responsible for the 
employees work whether they are in the office or remote, 
absolutely.
    Mrs. Boebert. Sorry, my time is running out. In April 2023, 
OMB issued guidance that called for increased meaningful in-
person work. Did this guidance result in any changes to the 
agency's telework policies?
    Mr. Alles. That was for me, ma'am?
    Mrs. Boebert. Yes.
    Mr. Alles. Yes. We have seen a decrease of about 20,000 
employees from the height of the pandemic until now that are no 
longer working in a telework status. So, the actual memo though 
is the direction we were already moving prior to the memo, 
meaningful in-person work. And it is increasing, our percentage 
is increasing.
    Mrs. Boebert. OK. And just quickly, Mr. Gibbs, what is your 
current reported occupancy rate in the NASA building for 
employees working full-time and in person? Because I am just 
showing, since my time is short, I would like you to answer, 
but I am showing that some agency headquarters reported 
occupancy rates as low as nine percent.
    Mr. Gibbs. So, across the agency, onsite work is 66 percent 
right now for NASA.
    Mrs. Boebert. OK. My time is expired. Mr. Chairman, I 
yield.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time.
    I see no other Members that are expressing time, and so I 
would yield myself the time at this point.
    We have had a chance to hear from each of you, and as you 
could see, there is widespread difference in, perhaps, what 
today's hearing was about. I hope it was not a gotcha. Mr. 
Mfume and I both believe that this is of value to not only 
ourselves, but we hope to you. We think that we have asked fair 
questions, but you can see that there is some bit of difference 
of opinion.
    Before I get to ask Mr. Dorman his question, and before I 
ask Mr. Gibbs a question that I prepared, I want you to know 
that part of the subject matter behind this is not only 
information that we believe we receive, but also the experiment 
that we went through for essentially 3 or 4 years. We could 
argue whether it is 3 or 4 years, but where we in Congress did 
that.
    And I notice the gentleman from Virginia has shown up, and 
I will be pleased to give him time.
    But what I would say is, it was a difficult transition for 
Members of Congress even to the last hearing. It was 
complicated. It was time-consuming. It was a waste of time. It 
produced, sparingly, opportunities when we were doing--when 
what was a waste of time many times were the 3 hours that we 
would wait before Committee hearings where we tried to get 
people on or off, or move them back and forth. It was delayed 
many times by any number of very technical issues that we were 
working through. So, I--we were simply trying to make sure that 
we were receiving those benefits of your chances as you worked 
on that.
    So, I am now going to, because the gentleman, Mr. Connolly, 
has arrived, I am going to suspend my questions, as I said, Mr. 
Dorman, and Mr. Gibbs, and yield time to the distinguished 
gentleman, my friend, Mr. Connolly.
    Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You are always 
gracious. And I have got another hearing at exactly the same 
time----
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Connolly [continuing]. And it is in the Visitor Center, 
so I am running back and forth, so thank you so much for 
accommodating that schedule.
    And I also want to thank the Chair, in his opening remarks, 
I thought you made a really thoughtful distinction that I want 
to reemphasize between universal remote working in a pandemic, 
and a structured telework program. Those are two very different 
things, and I really appreciate the Chairman making that 
distinction.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Connolly. Not all of our colleagues do. And, by the 
way, it is bipartisan. I mean, I heard the Mayor of Washington 
conflate the two, you know, bemoaning empty offices and empty, 
you know, shops and restaurants.
    Mr. Sessions. Well, she looks at the results.
    Mr. Connolly. Yes. But that is not caused by telework. We 
had robust telework before the pandemic, and those offices were 
not empty, and those shops were doing bustling business, and 
so, we have got to separate the two. And I think our four 
witnesses today certainly did that in their opening remarks.
    And I just want to really emphasize what the Chairman said 
in his opening remarks and add my own two cents to it. We need 
telework. We need telework for lots of reasons.
    For example, Doctor, would you say at NSF, as we look at 
the next generation of employees, is telework an expectation in 
the work offering when we go to make a job offer?
    Ms. Marrongelle. Yes, it is.
    Mr. Connolly. Why?
    Ms. Marrongelle. Because we are in a different time now, 
today. We have learned so many lessons over the past few years, 
and we are able to offer flexibilities to attract the best and 
brightest workforce, and they do expect those flexibilities.
    Mr. Connolly. Right. And so, if we want to recruit and 
retain the next generation--and by the way, what is your 
estimate of--at NSF, for example, what percentage of your 
current workforce is eligible for retirement over the next 
several years?
    Ms. Marrongelle. I would have to get back to you on an 
exact percentage, but it is--it is a high percentage.
    Mr. Connolly. Yes. Well, overall, Federal Government is 
somewhere between 30 and 40 percent. So, we have got a huge 
wave of retirements coming, and how are we going to replace 
them, and we have got to be competitive. And, you know, 
somebody made some comment about the private sector. I spent 20 
years in the private sector. Telework is a very vibrant tool in 
the private sector. They are way ahead of us in the public 
sector, you know, Accenture, AT&T, just to name a couple. I 
mean, there are plenty of companies that actively use telework 
and make it work for them in terms of productivity, morale, 
recruitment, and retention.
    There was also a comment, I think, from my friend from 
Alabama, Gary Palmer, that, you know, there are reports that 
people using telework time for happy hour and pickle ball and 
watching soap operas and washing the dog. Answer that.
    Ms. Marrongelle. Well, I think----
    Mr. Connolly. I mean, my gosh, what are you doing?
    Ms. Marrongelle. I do not--I--we do not have evidence that 
that is the case. I think----
    Mr. Connolly. Oh, you do not have evidence. That would 
imply you have got a methodology for monitoring how people use 
telework. Is that true?
    Ms. Marrongelle. Well, we can see from our productivity. We 
can see from our productivity, from the amount of vacation and 
other leave times that people are taking, those numbers have 
not plummeted and our productivity has risen. And I do not--it 
does not square to me how you would get results like that----
    Mr. Connolly. And I am trying to get at something a little 
different. Telework is a structured program, right?
    Ms. Marrongelle. It is.
    Mr. Connolly. It is not an informal, well, if you feel like 
not coming in today, no problem. We will call that telework. 
That is not telework. Is that correct?
    Ms. Marrongelle. That is correct.
    Mr. Connolly. So, in a structured program, I thought I 
heard Mr. Gibbs say earlier, you have got to be qualified, it 
has got to be reviewed, it has got to be approved. But 
presumably, you are also evaluated on productivity, on checking 
in, on being available, right? We monitor that to know you are 
doing your job. Otherwise, we are going to rescind that 
privilege. Is that correct, Mr. Gibbs?
    Mr. Gibbs. One-hundred percent. And the way we look at it 
is accomplishing the mission, making sure the work is 
sufficient to accomplish that much.
    Mr. Connolly. Right.
    Mr. Gibbs. And the employees have to be trained. The 
supervisors have to be trained. There has to be an agreement in 
place that clearly lays out the roles and responsibilities of 
the individuals, and it has got to go to senior level to be 
approved.
    Mr. Connolly. Right.
    Mr. Gibbs. And----
    Mr. Connolly. Yes, otherwise rockets would be falling from 
the skies or never get up into the skies at all. So far, NASA 
seems to have a pretty good track record, as does NSF, as do 
the other agencies.
    I just want to end by saying, it is really important, and 
again, I appreciate the Chairman's distinction because it 
reflects a respect. A million Federal employees continued 
working in person during the pandemic. I lost a number of 
wonderful people who succumbed to the COVID virus because they 
went to work without protection. There were no protocols, but 
they went to work.
    And I want to make sure we honor those people. And I want 
to make sure that as we pursue this subject and other subjects 
about Federal performance, that we give due respect to the 
brave men and women who serve this country every day in person 
or remotely, and we should take care in our language, as the 
Chairman did in his opening remarks, not to disparage, even by 
implication, the overwhelming majority of public servants who 
care about their mission.
    I yield back, and I thank the Chair.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir. The distinguished gentleman yields 
back his time. Thank you very much.
    I am now going to resume my questions and would like to in 
the same spirit that the gentleman accused me of trying to be 
thoughtful about this, as Mr. Mfume and I have tried to work 
together on this for all of our Members, giving them the 
opportunity to express their own opinions as both sides have 
done.
    Mr. Dorman, the other day, perhaps yesterday, you and I 
spoke, and it was significantly directed to new employees, and 
new employees, and how we mature their not only growth, but 
work in an environment that is about the mission statement that 
you have. One of the concerns with telework is the impact on 
new hires as we have noted today. And you and I began a 
discussion. Do you mind continuing that discussion about how 
you mature new employees, how you bring them in, how you 
properly analyze them and build their confidence as, in 
essence, Federal employees?
    Mr. Dorman. Yes. Thank you, Chairman. So, at the NRC, one 
out of every six employees is new to the agency in the last 2 
years, so this is a very important area for us as we deal with 
the retirement wave that the Member from Virginia referred to. 
And so, in this environment, you know, I think we do see a new 
generation that is interested in telework, but I also see a new 
generation coming into my offices that are saying, I need to 
connect with the people who are here, and I need to learn from 
them.
    And so, as part of our presence with purpose, one of the 
areas is the on-boarding and training and qualification of our 
new staff. And so, a number of our offices have specific core 
days that are dedicated to staff training and development, so 
that we make sure that the inspectors, the license reviewers, 
the engineers and scientists that come into the agency, learn 
the regulatory craft and are ready to carry forward our mission 
into the future.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you.
    Mr. Gibbs, I do not want to turn this like we have got 
problems, but I will tell you, as part of the viewpoint that we 
had, there was a discussion about the JPL at CalTech and a 
particular project called Psyche or Psyche? And----
    Mr. Gibbs. Psyche, that is correct.
    Mr. Sessions. And evidently, as part of the feedback from 
that, there was an independent review board that was regarding 
this that pointed to remote and hybrid work policies as 
contributing factors for the lack of success that it may have 
accomplished. And it called for more in-person work.
    Now, I am not trying to say on your side of the ball or 
their side of the ball, but the way I view NASA is they have a 
mission statement, once again, as we have spoken about for the 
success, whether it is your rocket or someone else's rocket, a 
collaborative effort to make America look good when we put 
something up, because when it does not happen that way, whether 
we go to the Challenger or the United States Air Force with 
Titan rockets for a number of years, failure is an indication 
of a problem. Could you please discuss with me your take on 
that independent review board report?
    Mr. Gibbs. Yes, sir. So, Psyche, one of the contributing 
factors to poor performance on Psyche was telework, amongst 
many other contributing factors. I think the important message, 
at least within the NASA walls, is that we are owning up, 
having a critical evaluation, independent review board, and we 
are committed to corrective actions, not only on Psyche, but on 
other future missions interacting with JPL and across the NASA 
portfolio completely.
    We have a lot of complex partnerships. We have over 650 new 
partnerships on an annual basis across our country and 65 
internationally. We have to ensure that our communication, our 
ability to lead, all of these things, you know, doing our 
science and doing the rest of the mission work is accomplished 
efficiently and effectively. I think for me, though, the 
takeaway was we are willing to take a look, have a hard 
conversation, and commit to corrective actions.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir. Well, we are--and thank you for 
that answer.
    The importance of our oversight responsibilities is 
especially enumerated in the Constitution of the United States, 
which rests in this Committee and Subcommittee, is to ensure 
that we are hearing from you, that you are hearing from us, and 
it is my hope that, as I stated in the beginning, we are trying 
to recognize those who responded to what I would say in a 
positive, favorable way.
    We were attempting to also gain, from the Committee's 
perspective, that I believe Mr. Mfume recognizes and supports, 
as Mr. Connolly, is your feedback to us. Several of our Members 
today have indicated, and you, likewise, have boiled down to, 
we are interested in your analysis that I would expect that 
each of you would provide to this Committee, in writing, your 
evaluation of what those metrics are when someone is working 
from home. That would include your rules, regulations, ongoing 
experiences of who that includes.
    We had, in my prior life, what we called craft employees. I 
worked for AT&T for 16 years. You have management employees, 
and you have what I will just call workers who contribute to 
the critical role that you play across the government.
    If you could distinguish for me, do your supervisors, are 
they exempted? Do they come to work? What is their role with 
the management structure? How is that working? And the reason 
why I say this is because, perhaps there is some disagreement 
in Congress about how effective our procedures were. It was 
very attractive to young people who were freshmen. They wished 
they had that same opportunity now to work remotely, and really 
not come to Washington but to be somewhere else.
    Our experiences that we had in Congress of dealing with 
remote working, Zooms, having Committee hearings, the 
effectiveness of hearing each other, talking with each other, 
in my opinion, was a less-than-favorable experience. You have, 
today, tried to provide this Subcommittee with the viewpoints 
that you believe you have a favorable experience.
    You believe you have been able to craft your workforce up 
to and including your ability to hire people, to manage people, 
the productivity that would be involved, and perhaps, the end 
result of providing us at least four agencies, once again, that 
we selected because we viewed that what you provided us was 
information where you were forthright about it. We would like 
to make sure we get it right also.
    And so, your time that you spent today was valuable to the 
distinguished gentleman and myself and this Committee. We want 
to followup a little bit more. We are going to be holding 
hearings in a couple weeks of those who did not offer us the 
favorability of giving us insight into their operations. We 
applaud you as not only Federal employees, but your service, 
whether it was at the Marine Corps, whether it was at the 
United States Navy, or whether it is vast experience of working 
for the Federal Government.
    But with that said, we are also trying to determine the 
same things that are very apparent that would be available to 
us, and that is that we saw, in education, where people, 
children, young people, students, did not get outside their 
home; did not have human interaction; did not, so to speak, 
work with other people and sharpen their skill set; did not 
build themselves; did not, perhaps, became lethargic in other 
areas.
    We saw in education and across workplaces, in what I would 
call the free enterprise system, where there were remarks 
across the board where real valuable development of employees 
lagged, real opportunity to move an employee perhaps more 
quickly up to an experienced level lagged, where they were 
having a difficult time in the free enterprise system in 
private industry getting people to come back to work because it 
is not meeting the expectation, not because they do not have a 
public at them.
    Mr. Sessions. We have seen adaptivity on behalf of what I 
would say American Airlines, who I deal with on a regular 
basis. And at 2, 3, 4 in the morning, they would get calls. 
Weather patterns have meant that they did have to have 
employees perhaps work overtime, that had not come into work.
    All I am suggesting to you is, is that industry leaders are 
now seeking--and I hear this on a regular basis--I am from 
Waco, Texas, what might be called deep in the heart of Texas. 
Employers are coming to Texas because they need people who come 
to work.
    And I believe I hear from industry leaders every day who do 
not harbor resentment against COVID, but harbor some sense of a 
change in workplace procedures, professionalism, guidance, 
developing their people, people developing themselves, and a 
sense of a wilderness by many employees who do not have the 
same thing that perhaps I grew up with, that perhaps you grew 
up with.
    And I would simply suggest to you that workplace 
performance, education, and what we see happening provides us 
with insight about who is going to come to work, and why is 
that work at home, and wasn't there a valuable experience that 
was gained, from professionally being developed by someone, 
like Mr. Mfume and myself?
    I think we help new Members of Congress, occasionally.
    Mr. Mfume. Oh.
    Mr. Sessions. OK. Well, perhaps not as much by Mr. Mfume, 
but I believe that I have Members and staff who seek out my 25 
years' experience, especially now, instead of going to fear, we 
go to work and process.
    So, I would simply say to you, I appreciate and respect you 
coming here today. I think, from the two calls that I made 
yesterday, I wanted to set an expectation that this Committee 
finds your insight as professional managers of the business 
insightful and that you are evidently trying to make it work, 
but would tell you that, across industry, in many of the same 
organizations, whether it be sheriffs' departments, whether it 
be other areas that deal with deep need, dark--not dark, but 
deep subjects that require notice and working together and 
actually getting it right and putting it on the board and 
experience-yielding opportunities and managers who build and 
develop the next generation, industry is telling us they are 
not getting it, and that is why they want people back at work. 
And I saw you do the opposite today.
    And so, without a challenge to you, I would say, as an open 
conversation with you and my colleagues, that we would hope to 
glean information about what you are doing that is making it 
successful, that many others are finding of a future where we 
just do not know each other. We do not glean the experience of 
having to come in and be in a room where there is a problem and 
you have got to work together.
    It is not just one or two people on a Zoom call, or 10. I 
would suggest to you that diminishes the ability to get where 
you want to go, because it is either, A, the loudest person in 
the room, or the boss in the room who simply gave you the 
answer without working through things.
    So, thank you for this experiment. Thank you for lending us 
your time.
    I would like to see you go back, and without challenging 
me, present to us what you believe were proper viewpoints of 
how you looked at what you did. You very clearly spoke about--
well, your level of efficiency was well up, and yet, industry 
struggles.
    And I think that your ability as a supporting role to that 
should correspondingly offer perhaps a little bit more guidance 
of a team rather than a Zoom call.
    Mr. Mfume, I want to allow you an opportunity to offer any 
closing remarks. You and I try and mirror each other.
    But the distinguished gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Mfume. Well, I want to thank you again, Mr. Chairman. 
And in their absence, I want to thank Members of both sides of 
the aisle in this Committee for their participation today, 
albeit limited. There are a lot of things going on this week, 
so they have been in and out. But I thank them.
    I thank the witnesses again, as I did previously, for their 
testimony.
    And, you know, someone once said, if you live long enough, 
you will see everything twice. So, I recall being here in this 
body in 1987 as a young Member. Ronald Reagan was President. 
Jim Wright was my Speaker of the House. And there were enormous 
sets of hearings around something called telework. I cannot 
even begin to tell you how difficult it was defining it in 
those days, not by the advocates, but against--but by those who 
did not want to enter anything new into the concept of work.
    So, looking back through that telescope of time, I have got 
a little bit of perspective on this. It is amazing, for me at 
least, that I can be as old as a dinosaur, and here we are 
still talking about telework. It was great that this was 
divided, as Mr. Connolly said in referencing your remarks, that 
what was going on in the pandemic and what is going on now are 
really two different things. Telework has always been with us. 
When I say always, I will go back to 1987. I cannot go beyond 
that.
    But it has developed over time, and I asked the question 
about matrix and measurement because, as Mr. Biggs said, at the 
end of the day, it is really about productivity. Are we 
producing, and is the Federal workforce producing? And the 
answer is yes, we are.
    It is our responsibility, I think, to get out of our own 
minds, no matter whether we are on the left or the right of 
this, the idea that what was happening during the pandemic in 
real time, policies being developed almost overnight to make 
sure that we were getting work done, is not the same thing that 
is going on now.
    What is going on now is the basic telework that has always 
gone on with measurements--real measurements to look at 
productivity and to look at the bottom line, and then to be 
able to course-correct where necessary.
    So, it was interesting to hear all of you talk about how 
you identify where there are lapses in that and how you move 
quickly to straighten that out so that, again, productivity is 
not severely hampered.
    I am hoping, quite frankly--I guess I am still an 
optimist--that, 25 years from now, 40 years from now, we still 
will not be on this ledge of telework. And I do not want--I 
really do not want for us to do the sort of post-mortem on 
COVID as if that is something that we are trying to figure out.
    We figured it out. We did it in real time. Did we make some 
mistakes? Yes. Did we get it right? Yes. Is it over with? 
Hopefully it is.
    But the question becomes: How do we improve on the concept 
of telework, which we have been improving on as a government 
for many, many, many years.
    I represent Baltimore, and so, I am just 40 miles up the 
road. There are Federal workers all over the small state of 
Maryland. So, I hear and I see and I understand differently, in 
many respects, the position of those who are teleworking, who 
are doing their work. And I understood, also, what we went 
through during the pandemic.
    So, for the sake of the future and the sake of productivity 
and the sake of telework, to the extent that we can continue to 
refine it, and define it, and make it even more efficient year 
after year after year, we would have served our country in a 
way that, for me at least, would be quite satisfying.
    We are not going backward. And, since we all agree that we 
are going forward, how do we define that future?
    Mr. Connolly talked about the wave--and I think, Mr. 
Dorman, you also did--about this wave of retirements that we 
are getting ready to get hit with. And how do we go about, 
Doctor, finding, as you said, ways to attract younger people 
and what the real job requirements and what the job market 
looks like when we juxtapose ourselves against the private 
sector that understands this and who realizes that their bottom 
line is profit; our bottom line is productivity. And they have 
moved exceedingly fast to create a model that it might be good 
for us to emulate.
    So, I want to, again, thank Chairman Sessions for the time 
this morning.
    He and I came into this Committee at the beginning of this 
Congress based on new ratios and a new Majority. But we decided 
together that, to the extent that we could find a way, in a 
bipartisan manner, to bring issues and to solve problems, we 
would do that.
    We both reserve our rights to disagree on things where we 
may be philosophically opposed, but we realize that finding 
consensus in government is the fastest and the most effective 
way to get something done.
    And so, that is what this hearing represents.
    I thank him again for his leadership with the Committee.
    And I yield back my time.
    And, again, I thank all of you for being with us.
    Mr. Sessions. The distinguished gentleman yields back his 
time.
    One last point. I do not want to rebut anything Mr. Mfume 
said, but in 1987, my father served as Director of the Federal 
Bureau of Investigation, and I recall, quite candidly, the 
discussions that took place about that agency, and they felt 
like they were under the same demand of replacing what would be 
new FBI agents with agents that retired.
    I think we are always at this point, or have been since at 
least 1987, when I started to grow a brain, of recognizing that 
this country does need its workers. We need the experienced 
people. We need the new people.
    I would simply say to you my side of that balanced equation 
was--I think it is in everybody's best interests that we pay 
attention about what we are doing to ourselves, because, when 
somebody stays at home all day, telework, they may not be as 
prepared for the future that is tomorrow.
    I want to thank each of you.
    Mr. Mfume and I are going to walk down--he is going to walk 
down his side. I am going to walk down my side. We are going to 
stick our hand out, and we are going to say to you, thank you 
very much.
    Please know this, that I would expect that you will respond 
back to us, in your own way, of the metrics and the ways that 
you look at it with us as an opportunity to glean what you 
think is success.
    Thank you very much.
    Mr. Mfume. Would the gentleman yield----
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Mfume [continuing]. For just a second? And I apologize.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes.
    Mr. Mfume. And I have a statement for the record that was 
submitted earlier by military spouses.
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection.
    Mr. Mfume. These spouses belong to employee organizations 
at Department of State, the U.S. Agency for International 
Development, Department of Agriculture, and the Department of 
Veterans Affairs.
    These are spouses who want it on the record to talk about 
and to find a way to encourage the Committee to embrace a 
flexible, adaptable workplace policy which allows military 
spouses to retain their jobs.
    So, with unanimous consent, I would like to have it entered 
into the record, and I thank the Chair for that.
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection, we will do that.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Mfume and I will come down and extend our 
hand of thanks to you on behalf of your agency and on behalf of 
the U.S. Congress, this Committee.
    We have now finished this hearing.
    Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 12:24 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

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