[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]






 
                         WEATHERING THE STORM:


                            OVERSIGHT OF THE


                 FEDERAL RESPONSE AND RECOVERY EFFORTS


                        IN SOUTHWESTERN FLORIDA


                        FOLLOWING HURRICANE IAN

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

    SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS AND THE FEDERAL WORKFORCE

                                 of the

                         COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
                           AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                            AUGUST 10, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-59

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Accountability
  
 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
 
  


                       Available on: govinfo.gov
                         oversight.house.gov or
                             docs.house.gov
                             
                             
                           ______

             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 53-368 pdf          WASHINGTON : 2023                            
                             
                             
                             
               COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND ACCOUNTABILITY

                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman

Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Jamie Raskin, Maryland, Ranking 
Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member
Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia
Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois
Pete Sessions, Texas                 Ro Khanna, California
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Kweisi Mfume, Maryland
Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, New York
Jake LaTurner, Kansas                Katie Porter, California
Pat Fallon, Texas                    Cori Bush, Missouri
Byron Donalds, Florida               Shontel Brown, Ohio
Kelly Armstrong, North Dakota        Jimmy Gomez, California
Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
William Timmons, South Carolina      Robert Garcia, California
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Maxwell Frost, Florida
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Lisa McClain, Michigan               Greg Casar, Texas
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Jasmine Crockett, Texas
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Dan Goldman, New York
Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Jared Moskowitz, Florida
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina        Vacancy
Nick Langworthy, New York
Eric Burlison, Missouri

                       Mark Marin, Staff Director
       Jessica Donlon, Deputy Staff Director and General Counsel
                      Bill Womack, Senior Advisor
                 Alex Rankin, Professional Staff Member
      Mallory Cogar, Deputy Director of Operations and Chief Clerk

                      Contact Number: 202-225-5074

                  Julie Tagen, Minority Staff Director
                      Contact Number: 202-225-5051
                                 ------                                

    Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce

                     Pete Sessions, Texas, Chairman
Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Kweisi Mfume, Maryland Ranking 
Clay Higgins, Louisiana                  Minority Member
Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of 
Byron Donalds, Florida                   Columbia
William Timmons, South Carolina      Maxwell Frost, Florida
Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Greg Casar, Texas
Marjorie Taylor Greene, Georgia      Gerald E. Connolly, Virginia
Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico
Russell Fry, South Carolina          Robert Garcia, California
Chuck Edwards, North Carolina        Summer Lee, Pennsylvania
Eric Burlison, Missouri              Jasmine Crockett, Texas
                                     Vacancy
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hearing held on August 10, 2023..................................     1

                               WITNESSES

                              ----------                              

Panel 1 - Federal Witnesses

Mr. Thomas McCool, Federal Coordinating Officer for Hurricane 
  Ian, (Sept. 2022 - Apr. 2023), Federal Emergency Management 
  Agency
Oral Statement...................................................     6

Mr. Francisco Sanchez, Jr., Associate Administrator, Office of 
  Disaster Recovery & Resilience, Small Business Administration
Oral Statement...................................................     8

Ms. Marion McFadden, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary, 
  Community Planning Development, Department of Housing and Urban 
  Development
Oral Statement...................................................    10

Panel 2 - Local Witnesses

Mr. Brian Hamman, Chairman and District 4 Commissioner, Lee 
  County, Florida
Oral Statement...................................................    32

Mr. Kevin B. Anderson, Mayor, Fort Myers, Florida
Oral Statement...................................................    35

Mr. Chauncey Goss, Resident, Sanibel, Florida
Oral Statement...................................................    36

Written opening statements and statements for the witnesses are 
  available on the U.S. House of Representatives Document 
  Repository at: docs.house.gov.
                           INDEX OF DOCUMENTS

                              ----------                              

  * Article, WINK, ``Man Refuses to Get Off His Fort Myers Beach 
  Roof, Protesting FEMA Regulations''; submitted by Rep. Donalds.

  * Letter, August 9, 2023, from City of Cape Coral Office of the 
  Mayor to Rep. Donalds; submitted by Rep. Donalds.

  * Letter, August 9, 2023, from Rep. Donalds to Postmaster 
  General DeJoy; submitted by Rep. Donalds.

  * Letter, August 9, 2023, from Seminole Gulf Railway to Speaker 
  McCarthy; submitted by Rep. Donalds.

  * List of Main Points from Fort Myers Beach; submitted by Rep. 
  Donalds.

  * OpEd, ``Lesson Learned from Hurricane Ian - Let's Embrace 
  Nuclear''; submitted by Rep. Donalds.

  * Oversight, Fort Myers Beach; submitted by Rep. Donalds.

  * Statement for the Record, Randy Denzer, Volunteer from Texas; 
  submitted by Rep. Donalds.

  * Statement for the Record, Robert & Amy Lazzell, Fort Myers 
  Beach; submitted by Rep. Donalds.

  * Article, CNN, ``FEMA Delays Leave Many Hurricane Ian Victims 
  Exasperated Nearly Five Months After the Disastrous Storm''; 
  submitted by Rep. Donalds.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Hamman; submitted by Rep. 
  Edwards.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. McCool; submitted by Rep. 
  Sessions.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. McCool; submitted by Rep. 
  Edwards.

  * Questions for the Record: to Ms. McFadden; submitted by Rep. 
  Sessions.

  * Questions for the Record: to Ms. McFadden; submitted by Rep. 
  Edwards.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Sanchez; submitted by Rep. 
  Sessions.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Sanchez; submitted by Rep. 
  Edwards.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Anderson; submitted by Rep. 
  Edwards.

  * Questions for the Record: to Mr. Goss; submitted by Rep. 
  Edwards.

Documents are available at: docs.house.gov.


                         WEATHERING THE STORM:



                           OVERSIGHT OF THE



                     FEDERAL RESPONSE AND RECOVERY



                    EFFORTS IN SOUTHWESTERN FLORIDA



                        FOLLOWING HURRICANE IAN

                              ----------                              


                       Thursday, August 10, 2023

                        House of Representatives

               Committee on Oversight and Accountability

    Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce

                                           Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:00 a.m., in 
Lakes Regional Library, 15290 Bass Road, Fort Myers, Florida, 
Hon. Pete Sessions [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Sessions, Biggs, Donalds, and 
Edwards.
    Mr. Sessions. Good morning. It is 10 o'clock a.m. The 
Subcommittee on Government Operations and the Federal Workforce 
will come to order, and I would like to welcome each of you who 
are here and have taken time out of your important day to not 
only join us, but to hear what I believe will be information 
that will be shared, with the confidence that this Federal 
Government, this Republican majority, and local people need to 
work together on answers and the things that we are doing here 
today.
    Without objection, I may declare a recess at any time.
    Before commencing the hearing, I would like to recognize 
the Members of the Subcommittee who are joining us here today, 
and I want to thank them. The gentleman from Arizona, Mr. 
Biggs. Andy Biggs is an important Member of not only Government 
Reform and Oversight, but leads much of our effort as it 
relates to the border. He represents Arizona.
    And, Andy, I want to thank you for taking time, coming from 
a hearing yesterday across to here.
    Also, the gentleman, Congressman Chuck Edwards, who is from 
North Carolina, who was with Chairman Biggs yesterday, and 
maybe the day before in Arizona, and I want to thank both of 
them for coming to this rain-wrenched area of Florida as we do 
this hearing.
    We also, of course, have a local Congressman, a very 
diligent and important Member of not just our Subcommittee but 
also our Committee and as a colleague also that serves with me 
on the Financial Services Committee, Byron Donalds. Mr. Donalds 
told me last night that he would be a bit late, and I will tell 
you I understand that because if I were in my district, I would 
be way late. But we will expect to have Congressman Byron 
Donalds here in just a few minutes. And as I was just told, he 
is getting ready to walk in.
    But thank you to each of you for joining us today. Today's 
hearing, I hope, will be productive and a benefit to each of us 
who are participants.
    And I now recognize myself for making an opening statement, 
and I want to welcome everybody. Today is official business of 
the U.S. House of Representatives, the House Oversight and 
Accountability Subcommittee on Government Operations and the 
Federal Workforce.
    The great people of Florida have shown a remarkable 
strength and determination as they continue to rebuild what was 
a devastating effort that came against them with the wake of 
Hurricane Ian, and I would like to thank my colleague who is 
getting ready to walk in, Congressman Byron Donalds, for 
raising really the spectrum of taking a look at not just what 
happened here but what has happened since. He has constituents 
and also elected officials that represent people, and they know 
that we need to be better prepared for future disasters, but 
also to end the things which we are doing now.
    Congressman Byron Donalds is a dedicated young servant, and 
I have great confidence in him, and it was a request that he 
made of us and so we are here.
    I also want to thank the men and women of agencies, 
agencies who have come to town, their people, hours of 
devotion, dedication to try and make sure that the people of 
this area of Florida were well taken care of. We thank the men 
and women of the government, the U.S. Government, state 
government, local government, and cities.
    We gather together after 1 year for an after-action report 
on behalf of the Federal Government's work to support local 
governments, businesses, families, and individual citizens. And 
I want to say that we have two panels that will take place 
today; first with Federal witnesses who will testify; and then, 
second, with local witnesses who will provide their feedback 
that helps us.
    This will be a discussion of the actions that have already 
been taken and also that need to continue. From our local 
witnesses, we appreciate the chance to hear from you and 
believe that your story that will be told will help the Federal 
Government and certainly the U.S. Congress to be better 
prepared if and when it does happen again.
    I have had the opportunity to speak to each of our 
witnesses prior to the hearing, and I told them that I want 
them to know that their testimony is appreciated, and I want 
them to be a part of a productive conversation, a conversation 
that will take place whereby we can work with it and make 
things better.
    While we are currently focused on this effort, we all know 
it will not be the last time that Federal, state, and local 
governments must come together to help rebuild communities. And 
this morning, as we woke up, we saw how Hawaii, the state of 
Hawaii is going through something that is similar, but that is 
total destruction of many cities. Our prayers go out to them. 
The people who were involved are Americans, and our Federal 
Government and the U.S. Congress need to play a key role in 
what they are doing.
    Natural disasters are not rare, but we know that the 
financial loss and the size and scope of this last hurricane 
was huge.
    So, I want you to know that we are committed to thanking 
FEMA, SBA, and HUD and other agencies, but we should not forget 
also our first responders, the men and women of law 
enforcement, the men and women of fire units and EMS. They were 
on the frontline. They felt the brunt of this also. And part of 
the discussion I heard last night from our witnesses was their 
need to have those people stay in affordable housing where they 
had been, and that is part of the discussion that will take 
place today.
    So, we are delighted to be here. I want you to know that I 
think us being here can make a difference, but the difference 
that we need to make is supporting our colleagues and the 
people of this area.
    And I would like to defer now, if I could, to the 
distinguished gentleman, Mr. Byron Donalds, for any opening 
statement the young Congressman would choose to make.
    The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman.
    First of all, Chairman, I really want to thank you and 
Members of the Committee for coming down to Southwest Florida 
for this hearing. The devastation that occurred here in 
Southwest Florida a year ago was breathtaking. And we have been 
through hurricanes before here. It is something that, the 
rebuilding effort, is not something that is far from the minds 
of people from this part of the state of Florida, or even from 
Florida in general.
    But the level of devastation from flooding in particular is 
something that none of us really could understand the magnitude 
of. Those early days, post storm, were rough, but what we saw 
firsthand were a lot of agencies, Federal and state and local, 
try to come together to get this area back on track. Some 
miraculous things occurred through that.
    But the one thing that was always clear about the people of 
Southwest Florida was their resiliency. Chairman, I can tell 
you we had residents on Fort Myers Beach who hunkered down 
through this storm, which was shocking to me, but they did and 
did not bat an eye. When they were asked to leave their 
residences, their refrain to me and to a lot of local leaders 
was absolutely not, this is my home, and this storm has passed, 
and we are going to do everything we can to rebuild.
    To the people of Sanibel Island who literally saw their 
entire causeway destroyed right in front of their eyes, instead 
of--obviously, there was a lot of desperation at the time, but 
they had a very major can-do spirit, and they were on boats 
going back and forth to Sanibel Island trying to clear debris 
from their homes, trying to start that process of building 
back.
    People on Pine Island, as the Matlacha Bridge was washed 
out, they were on the phone with me 2 days after basically 
saying, Byron, we are going to rebuild that bridge. With the 
government or without the government, that thing is being 
rebuilt. That is a little bit of the mindset and the heart that 
has gone on here in Southwest Florida post storm.
    My actions in particular, you know, my office's, you know, 
legislative activities basically ceased; they ended, and at 
that point, everything was about trying to make sure that all 
of our offices, whether it is here locally in the district 
office or the D.C. office, were available to provide any 
service, any resource, act as a hub for our constituents, those 
in need.
    We toured many areas of the district from, you know, doing 
aerials over Sanibel and Fort Myers Beach and Matlacha. It was 
even being on the ground, you know, right here locally in the 
Harlem Heights section of Southwest Florida right off of San 
Carlos Boulevard trying to assess the damage of those on the 
barrier islands, those who were on the mainland, so to speak, 
but right off of the low-lying areas, right in those low-lying 
areas to assess their issues and what was going on there.
    The devastating impacts to the Southwest Florida community 
were immense. I mean, we saw the pictures all over the news, 
all over social media of massive, you know, boats in roadways, 
and you would see cars in mangroves, and et cetera. We still 
have--some of that stuff is still there present to this day.
    There were organizations from all around the country that 
made their way to the district: strangers, nonprofits. People 
would bring food. People would bring supplies, all that they 
could do to try to help our area recover. You had nonprofit 
groups, churches coming together to strip drywall, to scoop out 
mud, to get carpeting out.
    In a lot of the mobile home parks in our area, you had 
nonprofit groups come in to try to help people who, this was 
their retirement. This was their home. And as they were 
watching the particle board floors evaporate from a combination 
of water damage and heat, trying to help them find a new place 
to go to. We have had groups come in and assist with laundry 
services, et cetera.
    Simply put, the recovery efforts were massive, but they are 
still not done, and there is still--although we have made a lot 
of progress, in a lot of areas of Southwest Florida, there is 
still much to be done.
    I really want to thank the Chairman for scheduling this 
hearing today to discuss with government officials from FEMA, 
from SBA, and from HUD, which are the three main Federal 
agencies that oversaw Hurricane Ian response from a Federal 
level.
    I look forward to this hearing as we take an overall view 
of the efficiency and the effectiveness of the Federal 
Government's Hurricane Ian response. I look forward to having a 
blunt and open conversation today, which will ultimately 
improve disaster relief efforts in the future.
    And the one thing, Chairman, I will say, is that, like I 
said, in Southwest Florida, we are accustomed to these events. 
They do happen periodically. And the No. 1 thing we want to 
make sure that we accomplish, is that that coordination between 
Federal and state gets better, that the triage, the 
assessments, and the delivery of resources to our citizens gets 
better as time goes on.
    But I would be remiss if we did not acknowledge the fact 
that there were and are some gaps that do need to be addressed, 
and I think that is really the purpose of this hearing.
    And so, with that, Mr. Chairman, I am going to yield back 
to you, but there is a couple of things I do want to enter into 
the record if I may.
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection, the gentleman may enter 
those.
    Mr. Donalds. First is the testimony from the city of Fort 
Myers Beach, from the city of Fort Myers Beach outlining the 
proposed action plan to improve Federal disaster relief.
    The second is testimony from the city of Cape Coral 
expressing their perspective on the Federal Government's 
hurricane relief efforts.
    No. 3 is testimony from a married couple from Fort Myers 
Beach expressing their take on the Federal Government's 
Hurricane Ian response.
    Fourth, testimony from Randy Denzer, who was a volunteer 
from Texas who traveled to Southwest Florida to assist with 
Hurricane Ian response.
    Fifth is an article titled, ``Man Refuses to Get Off His 
Fort Myers Beach Roof, Protesting FEMA Regulations.'' That was 
a WINK news article.
    Sixth is an op-ed that I published titled, ``Lessons 
Learned From Hurricane Ian- Let's Embrace Nuclear.''
    Seven, a letter from Southwest Florida's only Shore Line 
Railroad, Seminole Gulf Railway, relating to Hurricane Ian 
recovery efforts.
    And eight, a letter that I sent today to the U.S. 
Postmaster General, Louis DeJoy, requesting that the United 
States Postal Service extend its mail forwarding deadline by 
another 6 months to assist my constituents that are still 
rebuilding their homes and recovering from Hurricane Ian.
    And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time, and I 
want to thank the gentleman.
    For the people that are here that are constituents of 
Congressman Donalds, you should know that his activity and 
outreach across not just the U.S. Congress, but our government 
has been one of a spectacular nature. And he alluded to--we 
wanted to come here now and not wait until we had more answers, 
which are going to take place in legislation that will be on 
the Floor during the month of September and October, and that 
is very important that we follow up, and the feedback from our 
Federal Government employees does help.
    At this time, I would like to say that we are going to have 
two panels. The first panel will feature Federal witnesses; the 
second panel, local. I am pleased now to introduce the Federal 
witnesses who have already placed themselves properly before 
this Subcommittee.
    We have Thomas McCool. He has been a member of FEMA's 
Federal Coordinating Office for over 14 years as an officer and 
management person in that area. Over the course of his career, 
he has participated in over 50--and this is amazing--50 
Presidentially directed declared disasters, acting as CEO and 
FCO for a record of 31 of these events. Mr. McCool is charged 
with coordinating the Federal response to Hurricane Ian for 
FEMA and from the storms that have happened down in Florida.
    So, we have the person that is here from FEMA. Mr. McCool, 
welcome.
    Francisco Sanchez, Jr., served as Associate Administrator 
for the U.S. Small Business Administration Office of Disaster 
Recovery and Resilience. In this role, Mr. Sanchez is 
responsible for evaluating the priority of business and 
economic recovery by redesigning the Agency's disaster 
enterprise to better support America's 33 million small 
businesses. We are delighted that he is here today.
    And last, we have Marion McFadden. She serves as the 
Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for Community Planning and 
Development at HUD, the Department of Housing and Urban 
Development. In this role, she oversees the administration of 
Federal financial assistance to combat homelessness, the 
creation of affordable housing opportunities, and to strengthen 
local communities as they have disasters.
    So pursuant to Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please stand 
at this time and raise their right hand.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you 
are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth so help you God?
    Thank you very much.
    Let the record show that all the witnesses answered in the 
affirmative.
    We want you to know that we appreciate you being here 
today. I would like to remind the witnesses that we intend to 
read your testimony. We also intend to listen to you here 
today. It will appear in the full hearing record.
    I would like you to know that we typically have 5 minutes 
to give you. I want you to know that I am not going to stick to 
that today, but that does not mean 20 minutes. What it means is 
that we want to allow you time to effectively present your 
position. I have previously spoken to you before we arrived in 
Florida, and I think you understand that we are trying to make 
this effort better, as opposed to 5 minutes come and go and 
leave. We are not going to leave and nor are you--neither are 
you.
    So, I want to thank each of you for being here. We will 
come first to Mr. McCool. The gentleman is recognized.

                       STATEMENT OF THOMAS McCOOL

             FEDERAL COORDINATING OFFICER FOR HURRICANE IAN

                  FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY

    Mr. McCool. Chairman Sessions and Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to discuss FEMA's 
efforts to help Florida recover from the devastating impact of 
Hurricane Ian. My name is Tom McCool, and I am a Federal 
Coordinating Officer in FEMA. I was the Federal Coordinating 
Officer of record for Hurricane Ian until May of this year.
    Ian is the third costliest natural disaster ever in the 
United States after Hurricane Katrina and Harvey. It was 
initially anticipated to strike the Tampa Bay area, but 
instead, took aim at Lee County and pushed a destructive 10-to-
15-foot storm surge into Fort Myers Beach, Sanibel Island, and 
Pine Island, before causing significant flooding across central 
Florida, combined with high winds that resulted in damage to 
over 50,000 homes and businesses and the collapse of a large 
portion of the Sanibel Causeway, temporarily cutting off all 
the vehicles' access to Sanibel Island.
    Under the leadership of Administrator Deanne Criswell, even 
before the storm made landfall, FEMA coordinated with the 
Florida Department of Emergency Management and local partners 
to ensure resources were in place for a rapid response and a 
quick start to recovery.
    Through a people-first focus, we worked aggressively to 
eliminate barriers that might slow efforts to help individuals 
and communities impacted by the storm. FEMA took advantage of 
time before Ian hit to pre-stage resources and commodities 
strategically, including 3.7 million meals, 3.5 million liters 
of water, 128,000 gallons of fuel, as well as FEMA urban search 
and rescue personnel, who assisted in lifesaving operations and 
helped expedite FEMA's assistance to communities.
    FEMA acted quickly to coordinate the deployment of more 
than 4,000 Federal responders, including seven disaster medical 
assistance teams. FEMA also arranged for barges and helicopters 
to re-establish critical services on Sanibel Island until the 
causeway could be repaired.
    We implemented a unique rapid debris removal taskforce that 
used technology to identify areas where debris was 
concentrated. This allowed 19 million cubic yards of debris, 
enough to fill more than 5,800 Olympic-size swimming pools to 
be moved in record time and cleared. This was weeks faster and 
months faster than we had previously done with any other large 
event of this size.
    Data collected by geographic information systems also 
allowed us to expedite remote damage assessments for private 
homes and buildings, eliminating the need for in-person 
inspections. To speed delivery of assistance to disaster 
survivors, we completed more than 5,600 GIS home inspections 
that led to more than $78 million in assistance to survivors.
    These and other innovative solutions were critical to jump-
start recovery for impacted individuals and community. FEMA is 
committed to further building on this work.
    Now, 10 months after the disaster, more than $8 billion has 
been paid out to either direct financial assistance, SBA 
disaster loans, or flood insurance payments to help people, 
communities, and businesses recover. We know, and I 
acknowledge, there is still a lot of work to be done.
    For folks still working to get back on their feet, recovery 
never comes quickly enough. Housing and affordable housing 
remains a challenge for some survivors. We are committed for 
the long-term, and we will be here until the job is done.
    Overall, FEMA has a workforce of over 22,000 dedicated 
employees who are battle-tested and ready to deploy at a 
moment's notice to any disaster. We have personnel prepared to 
support lifesaving response operations, including four national 
and 13 regional incident management assistant teams, 28 urban 
search and rescue teams, and 36 emergency communication teams.
    Our warehouse and distribution centers across the country 
are stocked and ready to support states and tribes with water, 
meals, cots, blankets, generators. Beyond that, our pre-
negotiated contracts and inter-agency partners are ready to 
meet the moment of any disaster that develops.
    Our approach to post-disaster housing continues to evolve 
based on successes and lessons learned from previous direct 
housing missions. Our goal is to deliver safe, durable housing 
for displaced survivors following any disaster, regardless of 
the location, scope, or scale.
    Last year, here, was the first time we deployed a direct 
housing implementation team to expedite housing for survivors. 
We are also excited to continue to deploy a new public 
assistance initiative, the public assistance navigator to 
provide personnel to help applicants through the process of 
public assistance.
    Finally, as we do every year during hurricane season, we 
continue to amplify preparedness message. Always listen to 
protective action and guidance from local emergency management 
officials. Know your evacuation zones and routes. If told to 
evacuate, evacuate; and prepare to act while time is on your 
side.
    Thank you again, and I look forward to your questions.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. McCool, thank you very much.
    Mr. Sanchez, you are recognized.

                     STATEMENT OF FRANCISCO SANCHEZ

                        ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR

                OFFICE OF DISASTER RECOVERY & RESILIENCE

                     SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION

    Mr. Sanchez. Chairman Sessions, thank you for the 
invitation to discuss the Small Business Administration's 
actions in response to Hurricane Ian. Representative Donalds is 
a former Member of the House Committee on Small Business. Nice 
to see you again.
    I am Francisco Sanchez, Associate Administrator at the U.S. 
Small Business Administration. I oversee the Office of Recovery 
and Resilience. On behalf of SBA Administrator Isabella 
Casillas Guzman and the entire team, thank you for your support 
of our disaster mission and helping us to ensure that the 
Federal Government stands ready to continue our efforts here in 
Florida.
    Personally, I spent decades in emergency management working 
some of the largest security events in the Nation, from two 
Super Bowls to three World Series, as well as providing local 
coordination for multiple national special security events.
    Prior to joining the SBA, I served as Deputy Homeland 
Security and Emergency Management Coordinator in Harris County, 
Texas. If you do not know where that is, that includes the city 
of Houston along the Gulf Coast. And in that role, had the 
privilege of serving on command staff for four of our Nation's 
10 most costly natural disasters: Katrina, Rita, Ike, and 
Harvey.
    And the most humbling points in my career have been when I 
have had to step in and help communities recover and rebuild. 
So, I understand the challenges that Florida is facing.
    And so, for our part, I did join SBA in January 2022, to 
help lead our disaster efforts, what is now the disaster 
enterprise across SBA. It is one of the most important 
functions that we serve is to help lift up Americans and 
community in the aftermath of disaster.
    SBA is uniquely positioned in being able to come in and 
help homeowners, renters, businesses, and private nonprofits. 
For businesses, we provide physical damage loans. If you were 
not damaged, we can also come in and provide economic injury. 
For example, here where tourism is a big industry, if you were 
not impacted but suffering with some capital challenges, we 
help there as well.
    Today we are here in Fort Myers, the city that experienced 
the devastation and destruction of Hurricane Ian on September 
28 of last year. As Mr. McCool mentioned, this is the third 
most costly storm in our Nation's history, and that, obviously, 
comes with some incredible challenges.
    On September 29, President Biden declared a major disaster 
in Florida the day after the storm hit, and SBA, on that same 
day, was on the ground ready to deliver disaster relief in this 
community. A few short weeks later, Administrator Guzman and I 
traveled to Florida to visit with businesses, visit with local 
officials, and listen to how we could prioritize and deploy on 
the ground in a way that would meet local priorities.
    One of the things that we do is open business recovery 
centers to make sure that we can help local businesses in the 
economy recover. Working alongside with our Federal partners 
and state partners, we also surge in disaster recovery centers 
at the community level. Actually, we are the first disaster 
recovery center that opened after the storm.
    One of our most innovative approaches to enhance SBA's 
outreach here in Florida was the deployment of portable loan 
outreach centers, what we call PLOCs. They are lightweight 
mobile deployable systems that help us enable rapid response to 
some of the most damaged and vulnerable locations.
    And so, one of the things we saw here is communities where 
facilities could not open yet. There was not enough power, 
limited issues at capacity. So they are basically tents, solar-
powered tents, tables, that are staffed, that go into those 
communities to make sure they do not have to wait for help. 
That model worked. We deployed those in other parts of the 
state to make sure that we could meet the customer where they 
are.
    Since September of last year, we have approved more than 
$1.9 billion in assistance to 25,000 loan recipients, and of 
that amount, $371 million has been approved for businesses in 
these most impacted communities.
    Since that year, coming up on the year mark, we opened 10 
business recovery centers, 6 of those portable loan outreach 
centers that I talked about, and we supported 60 of the 
disaster recovery centers that are coordinated by our partners 
at FEMA and the state, and at the peak of the response, had 
more than 250 staff on the ground spread out throughout the 
state helping ensure that we could recover.
    Most recently, for example, as we continue that outreach, 
our team made more than 14,000 calls to businesses by telephone 
to try to touch those survivors, engage with them, and let them 
know that we are still here and that we continue to help, and 
we will continue that effort.
    Both the President and Administrator Guzman made it clear 
that we would be here as long as it takes. I am here to 
reiterate that, and to tell you that we continue to be on the 
ground, and I do not see us going anywhere any time soon. We 
have got some long work to do.
    So, I appreciate the opportunity to tell you a little bit 
about what we have done but, more importantly, from the local 
perspective and having been there, to continue that dialog to 
see how we can adapt, continue to pivot, and make sure that we 
are there for every step of the way to see Floridians recover.
    Thank you so much.
    Mr. Sessions. I thank the gentleman.
    Ms. McFadden, you are recognized.

                      STATEMENT OF MARION MCFADDEN

                  PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY

                   COMMUNITY PLANNING AND DEVELOPMENT

              DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT

    Ms. McFadden. Thank you.
    Chairman Sessions, other distinguished Members, my name is 
Marion McFadden. On behalf of Secretary Marcia Fudge, thank you 
for the opportunity to testify regarding HUD's efforts to 
assist communities impacted by Hurricane Ian and other 
disasters.
    I serve as the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary for the 
Office of Community Planning and Development, which provides 
about $10 billion annually to communities across the country 
and has allocated more than $10 billion in the last 3 years 
alone for recovery from the worst disasters.
    Personally, I first engaged in Federal disaster recovery 
efforts in the aftermath of 9/11. A decade later, I served as 
the Chief Operating Officer and Acting Executive Director of 
the Hurricane Sandy rebuilding taskforce. Working to improve 
disaster recovery has been infused in every aspect of my career 
in the public and private sectors.
    Whether it is after a hurricane, fire, tornado, or other 
catastrophic event, no two disasters are alike, but the people 
whose lives are affected all need the same thing, a safe and 
secure place to call home.
    After Hurricane Ian, we worked across HUD to provide a 
comprehensive response. We protected impacted homeowners by 
providing a temporary moratorium on foreclosures of mortgages 
we insure and made additional capital available. Additionally, 
to allow homeowners to finance the repair or replacement of 
damaged homes, HUD made insurance available for both mortgages 
and home rehabilitation.
    After terrible disasters like Hurricane Ian, we know that 
everything has changed for impacted communities. We do not hold 
grantees to the plans that they made before disasters to spend 
their annual funds, because we know that priorities shift 
toward recovery.
    In October, I provided a package of waivers for formula 
allocation programs to accelerate Florida's recovery. For 
example, we waived the home program's matching requirement for 
new construction of affordable housing. HUD established a 
disaster technical assistance team of national experts to 
supplement the work of our permanent Florida staff.
    Secretary Fudge then announced the inaugural round of 
funding for the rapid unsheltered survivor housing program, or 
RUSH. RUSH was created to address homelessness by filling in 
gaps for individuals who may not be eligible for other Federal 
assistance.
    Then in March, Secretary Fudge announced nearly $2.8 
billion in additional recovery funding for communities in 
Florida, including $1.1 billion in funding specifically for Lee 
County. This long-term recovery funding is provided through the 
community development block grant disaster recovery program, or 
CDBG-DR, which primarily serves low to moderate income families 
and communities.
    Key decisions on how to spend these funds are made at the 
state and local level. CDBG-DR is used for repairs and new 
construction of homes for the redevelopment of damaged 
infrastructure, like roads and bridges, and for small 
businesses as they recover from their uninsured losses.
    CDBG-DR supplements other Federal recovery assistance 
programs administered by FEMA and SBA, as well as the United 
States Army Corps of Engineers, but--and I think this is an 
important point--it does not supplant them.
    After HUD allocates CDBG-DR funding, jurisdictions prepare 
plans to outline how they will use the funding. They seek 
community feedback on their plans, and then they revise and 
submit those plans for HUD's review. We provide regular 
training and technical assistance, monitor grant 
administration, and partner with our Office of the Inspector 
General throughout the life of the grants to prevent fraud, 
waste, and abuse, or duplication of benefits.
    Communities receiving this funding routinely praise its 
flexibility, the long-term nature of the assistance, and the 
high levels of community engagement. They deeply value CDBG-DR 
in the ability to fill the gaps that are left by the 
underinsurance, and limited emergency response dollars. 
However, we often hear that these funds do not reach 
communities quickly enough.
    HUD research demonstrates that it takes about 1-1/2 years 
from the time of a disaster until the first CDBG-DR dollar is 
spent on recovery efforts. Recently, for the first time, HUD 
asked the public for feedback on how to simplify, modernize, 
speed up, and more equitably, distribute CDBG-DR funds. We 
received hundreds of recommendations and will make changes 
administratively to further strengthen our disaster recovery 
efforts.
    However, the delay in assisting communities stems from the 
fact that there is no permanent, reliable framework for this 
aid. CDBG-DR lacks both standing, statutory authority, and an 
annual appropriation. As of January 2023, Congress appropriated 
a cumulative total of almost $100 billion for the CDBG-DR 
program through individual supplemental appropriations.
    The President, the HUD Office of Inspector General, and GAO 
recommend permanent authorization of CDBG-DR as a way to remove 
uncertainty about what resources will be available to allow 
communities to better plan recovery activities and quickly 
deliver assistance.
    In conclusion, at HUD, we are all committed to supporting 
Florida communities through their entire recovery, and I look 
forward to any questions you may have.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you.
    Mr. Donalds, you are recognized.
    Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman.
    Witnesses, thank you so much for your time. A couple things 
I want to get to.
    Mr. McCool, quick--for you first. In May 23 of this year, 
FEMA published a document titled, ``Questions and Answers About 
Travel Trailer Removal on Barrier Islands.'' Specifically, the 
document says that the August 1 target date for removing 
trailers should allow many homeowners to complete their repairs 
and return to their homes.
    Can you please provide an update on whether FEMA has 
repossessed any trailers allocated to my constituents in 
Barrier Islands?
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
    As you know, Pine Island, Sanibel, and Fort Myers Beach 
were catastrophic. At the end state, we ended up putting 111 
travel trailers on those three islands. There are 16 that are 
left now. Those folks that have moved out have either moved 
into another FEMA facility, like a direct lease, an apartment, 
or their home has been repaired. And there is 16 households 
that have elected to stay, and they know the risk that they are 
under.
    Mr. Donalds. OK, but let me follow up to that question, 
because there were two issues surrounding travel trailers. The 
first was the initial deployment, which, in my view, took 
forever and a day, considering the fact that we had people who 
were instantly displaced.
    The second concern was there was a concern with FEMA around 
FEMA's regulation about putting travel trailers in a flood 
zone. But Southwest Florida, we are in a flood zone for the 
most part.
    So, can you speak specifically to the initial delay and to 
the regulatory issues surrounding FEMA's position around travel 
trailers in a flood zone considering the fact that the disaster 
area is in a flood zone?
    Mr. McCool. There's a myriad of regulations and policies 
that we work through. The bottom line is, if there is no 
practicable solution, we are allowed to put, after intense 
coordination with the local building official, flood plain 
manager in each community, travel trailers or manufactured 
housing units in a special flood hazard area.
    So, of the 1,335 units that are in, 933 are in a special 
flood hazard area, and 111 were placed out on the three 
islands, and like I said, 16 remain now. We did--the good news 
is every person, every household has a housing solution. We 
will complete the housing mission at the end of this month.
    Mr. Donalds. All right, specific to that, though, can you 
speak to the timetable between a request for housing assistance 
from a resident in a special flood area to the time when FEMA 
actually made the determination that they could place trailers 
in the special flood area? Like, how much time are we talking 
about?
    Mr. McCool. It was about 45 days.
    Mr. Donalds. OK. What are the regulatory concerns 
surrounding FEMA taking 45 days--not so much regulatory 
concerns. What are the procedural concerns around it taking 
FEMA 45 days to make such a declaration? Like internally, is 
there an issue around process time? Approval stage? Is it 
highly bureaucratic? Do you have to get authorization from the 
Director of Homeland Security? Is this an internal FEMA matter? 
Like, walk me through that. Why does it take 45 days?
    Because understand, from my vantage point, I have got 
residents who are out of a house. The first couple days they 
are trying to figure out what is going on, then they make a 
request, and then they are waiting 45 to 60 days. And I will 
add, Mr. McCool, sometimes longer than that.
    So, walk me through the internal process at FEMA. And what 
would be your recommendation on how to repair that for the 
future?
    Mr. McCool. Well, you know, because you have been in them, 
and I saw you in many of the shelters. From the shelters, we 
had transitional shelter assistance, think of hotels, in three 
states, and we had thousands of households in those 
transitional shelter assistance waiting for a temporary housing 
solution, whether it be a travel trailer, mobile home, direct 
lease, or a multi-family repair.
    We worked through, in 45 days, the regulatory and policy 
requirements, and I do not think we could have worked any 
faster. And the bottom line is, we have to keep people safe. We 
do not want to put people at risk, and so we did a very 
deliberate flood risk analysis, both for the three islands and 
every county that was affected, and we had a direct housing 
mission for it, and that took about 45 days.
    So, I am confident that the units that are placed are 
safely placed in a special flood hazard area, which we do not 
usually do. This is a unique situation.
    Mr. Donalds. OK, but I am going to follow up to that follow 
up.
    I am confused, because FEMA already draws basically the 
flood maps for the United States. So, FEMA already has an 
understanding of what are your baseline flood zones, your high-
risk flood zones, et cetera. So that data already exists.
    So, let me ask it this way: What would you say, what would 
you recommend to Congress to essentially alleviate or to make 
it far more streamlined the regulatory burden you are under for 
making these disaster decisions? Because the No. 1 thing we 
want to make sure occurs is that the Federal Emergency 
Management Agency can be depth and flexible enough to respond 
to emergencies in real time, not go through regulatory checks 
while people are struggling in real life.
    So, what would you recommend to us in terms of what are the 
regulatory or statutory changes FEMA might need so that we do 
not have to go through, for lack of a better phrase, a 
bureaucratic workflow like this in the future?
    Mr. McCool. The regulatory requirements that we have now, I 
think are effective to keep people safe, and we put units 
safely in a flood zone----
    Mr. Donalds. But Mr. McCool--so let me paint this picture 
for you. It is now October 24. You are a month displaced, 28 
days. You are in a shelter. You are not quite sure what is 
going on. It is still hot here in Southwest Florida. How are 
you safe?
    Or better yet, let us say you are not in a shelter. What if 
you are somebody who is still living in their structure because 
they choose not to go to a shelter because they do not want to 
leave their property behind. How are they more safe living in 
their house that is damaged by storm while FEMA is going 
through a process to establish if whether a travel trailer can 
sit in their driveway on Fort Myers Beach where if you just 
walk down the street of Fort Myers Beach, although there was a 
ton of debris all over the place, as long as you cleared the 
pad, the trailer can sit there.
    Like, walk me--that is what I am trying to understand. And 
as I ask that question, I am saying that not from, you know, 
with all due respect to my staff, not a list of questions my 
staff has. That is talking with people who were on the ground 
day 1, day 10, day 25 trying to figure out where is the housing 
mission with respect to FEMA?
    We are now in August. So, OK, the housing mission, to your 
words, are about to be finished, but the storm was 10 months 
ago.
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Donalds. So that is what I am trying to ascertain. I do 
not know if you can help me with that.
    Mr. McCool. Every case is different. We talked to each 
survivor 22 times before they went into a household, accessing 
functional needs, family composition, the placement of the unit 
on your private site or getting a commercial park, removing the 
debris, identifying a group site. All of that takes time.
    Mr. Donalds. OK.
    Let me ask you this: What are some examples of unintended 
consequences that FEMA has experienced based on specific United 
States Code provisions passed by Congress over the years? You 
have been doing this a long time. I am quite sure internally, 
you guys are like, oh, my gosh, I cannot believe they passed 
this back in 1992. This was stupid. Or I cannot believe they 
did this post Katrina. I got what they were trying to do, but 
it is not really helpful.
    What are you guys internally saying about some of the stuff 
that is in the United States Code that we can adjust?
    Mr. McCool. I would like to get back to you on the record 
with the specifics of that, Congressman.
    Mr. Donalds. On the record or off the record?
    Mr. McCool. On the record.
    Mr. Donalds. Oh, OK.
    Mr. McCool. Yes.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Chairman, I do not know if other Members 
have questions. I have got other questions, but I want to make 
sure I let the Members have time.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
    So, let us come to some agreement here that you have agreed 
that you will provide this Committee and the gentleman, Mr. 
Donalds, that information that you do not have readily 
available right now. When would the gentleman be providing 
that?
    Mr. McCool. We will work quickly with our staff at 
headquarters, and our goal is 2 weeks.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman has suggested that it would be 
2 weeks. I would agree to that.
    Mr. Donalds. That is fine.
    Mr. Sessions. What would the gentleman, Mr. Donalds, say?
    Mr. Donalds. That is fine by me. That would work.
    Mr. Sessions. We would agree with that, Mr. McCool. Thank 
you very much. A professional response we expect and want to 
thank you very much.
    As we had stated from the beginning, the outcome we wanted 
decision-makers who are here. That does not mean you understand 
every single circumstance, and we respect and appreciate that.
    I would now like to move to the gentleman, Mr. Biggs. The 
gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for 
holding this hearing today. Thank you, Representative Donalds, 
for hosting as well. I appreciate all the witnesses here for 
this panel and the next panel as well, and I appreciate the 
community for hosting and the law enforcement who are here.
    And I have a few things, but I am going to come back to the 
bone that Mr. Donalds has kindly set out for me to chew some 
meat off of, but before I get there, I want to just go through 
some other stuff as well.
    FEMA, Small Business Administration, the Department of 
Housing and Urban Development are among the more than 30 
Federal agencies that Congress has tasked with programs focused 
on disaster relief and recovery efforts. It is no secret that 
the past work of programs can be a nightmare to disaster 
survivors and communities to navigate, but Congress' ad hoc 
approach to providing support for these programs contributes to 
delays in the deployment of resources to impacted communities.
    I think, and I think what Mr. Donalds is getting at and 
what I want to make as the theme is, Congress is as much 
responsible for any flaws in disaster relief as any agency for 
sure, and that is why I think he is asking those questions, and 
that is why I am going to follow up on some of those questions 
in just a second.
    I have concerns that even when we authorize programs, they 
may obscure the risk, financial, and risk to actualize that 
Americans face from natural disasters.
    This hearing is also incredibly timely. As we approach the 
1-year anniversary of Hurricane Ian's landfall, FEMA's most 
recent report on the disaster relief funds suggest that it will 
be depleted near the end of the fiscal year. The national flood 
insurance program will expire on September 30, and reports 
indicate that the Biden Administration will be requesting as 
much as $12 billion in disaster funding at some point this very 
day.
    I appreciate the opportunity to hear from the members of 
the community who were impacted by Ian and from the agencies 
responsible.
    So, first, for each of you, can you discuss what funding 
your respective agencies may be seeking in this disaster 
supplemental and how that funding will be put to use? We will 
start with Ms. McFadden.
    Ms. McFadden. I am not aware of any funding for HUD. Thank 
you, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
    Mr. Sanchez?
    Mr. Sanchez. I am not aware of funding needs, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
    Mr. McCool?
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. I understand that a supplemental 
request will be moving forward imminently.
    Mr. Biggs. I know that. That is what I just said. How much 
money are you asking for? Is FEMA asking for any money in this 
disaster supplemental?
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. I have to get the specifics for you 
for the record.
    Mr. Biggs. OK. I would really--since it is being requested 
today, I would assume that you can probably get that in the 
next 15, 20 minutes. You have got good staff there. I think 
they can make a call to HQ and find out for us, and I would 
like it before we leave the hearing, to know how much, please.
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. So, I want to get back to the thematically 
important topic that my colleague, Mr. Donalds, has brought 
forward, and I want to--he is such a diplomat, and he does it 
very nicely. And I do not want--I am not trying to be 
antagonistic. I am just trying to understand.
    There has got to be--because you kept saying you had some 
regulatory constraints that took 45 days there. What are those 
regulatory constraints? Can you cite some specific code or 
rules or regulations and give us some numbers so that we can 
understand what those constraints are?
    Mr. McCool. Sir, most of it is in 44 CFR part 60.3, part 9. 
They have to do with environmental flood plain management, et 
cetera. And so, as we work through those issues, down to each 
community, each community has a building official and flood 
plain administrator, and they may have different standards of 
where we can put manufactured housing units so--and then there 
is environmental standards, and then there is working in the 
special flood hazard areas, and we do not put travel trailers 
in high hazard areas, V zones, et cetera.
    So those are the--but once we find out there is no 
practicable solution and can justify that, and in conjunction 
we are doing a pretty detailed risk analysis on each individual 
unit going in----
    Mr. Biggs. And so that is the regulatory constraint, and 
then you have staffing constraints because you are evaluating 
each unit, basically, is what you are telling me?
    Mr. McCool. Each survivor is different, and each has 
different needs, based on family composition, based on mobility 
issues, ADA compliance. Each and every situation is different.
    And what we like to do is put units close to the home, 
close to where the schools are, close to where the doctors are. 
You know, we could easily put up group sites 100 miles away and 
people would not come. So, we have to talk to the survivors. We 
have to figure out what their needs are. Our No. 1 focus is 
taking care of our survivors and what their needs are.
    Mr. Biggs. Ms. McFadden, let us--I am going to leave that 
to come back to Mr. Donalds at some point. I do not even have 
any time to yield to you, Mr. Donalds. If I did, I would be 
yielding some time to you, but I am over. But the Chairman is 
really relaxed on the rules today, which I am grateful for.
    So, Ms. McFadden, in your written testimony, you mentioned 
that it takes around 18 months from the time of a disaster 
until the first CDBG-DR dollar is spent. This is, of course, 
assuming that Congress even appropriates funding.
    And this is a critical issue. This is one of the issues 
that I want people to understand. There are 1,200 unauthorized 
programs, departments, and agencies in the Federal Government 
today accounting for over $500 billion of spending, even though 
those programs are not authorized, including what we are 
talking about today. And in September, if we do not do anything 
more, that will increase to over 1,500 and approach $1 trillion 
in spending that is going to unauthorized programs.
    What problems incur because Congress has failed to act on 
reauthorizing the program, Ms. McFadden?
    Ms. McFadden. Thank you for the question.
    The first problem is when the worst disasters happen, my 
counterparts and other agencies immediately start moving 
funding, start working with survivors. We wait and hope, for 
the most part, that funding will be made available.
    Because we do not have a permanently authorized program, we 
have been advised by our lawyers that we cannot write 
regulations. So, it is unclear to communities, if they get the 
funds, what the rules will be. And so, they have to----
    Mr. Biggs. Can I just interrupt you on that point just for 
a sec? Because there is no authorization, you cannot write the 
rules, and so every disaster has a different set of rules----
    Ms. McFadden. We have to publish----
    Mr. Biggs [continuing]. Provided you get the money and 
authorization.
    Ms. McFadden. Exactly right, sir. We have to publish the 
rules as a Federal register notice.
    So, we have heard from communities in jurisdictions that 
have had multiple years of funding how frustrating it is to 
have to track back to old Federal register notices to try to 
understand the rules as they are administering multiple grants, 
which may change over time.
    The benefit to that, going back many years, is that we 
could take lessons learned and apply them, but now that we have 
been in this business of doing disaster recovery for many, many 
years, every year or every other year, we know that we are 
ready for a permanently authorized program and a real 
rulemaking process to remove that uncertainty.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
    And I am way over time, but I will just tell you that gets 
back to my part of this theme is that Congress is as much to 
share blame as any agency does, and Congress better step up and 
get itself together, not just in this area but in those 1,500 
programs, departments, and agencies. We need to determine if we 
are going to authorize them or not and get the work done on 
that.
    I yield back. Thanks.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time. Thank you 
very much.
    The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Edwards, is 
recognized.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    All of you, thanks. Thanks for being here. Representative 
Donalds, thank you for bringing this together. I think all of 
us on this panel experienced natural disasters at one time or 
another, and so, while I know that this hearing is very centric 
to south Florida, it will have implications for us around the 
country. So, thank you for helping convene us.
    Mr. McCool, just real quick. Mr. Donalds had asked a 
question about regulations that might need to be looked at, and 
you said you would get back to us in 2 weeks. This panel is 
certainly amenable to that.
    I am just curious. Why would you not have those answers 
available today? Why would it take 2 weeks to pull those 
together?
    Mr. McCool. Sir, I have been laser-focused on Hurricane Ian 
for the last year, and prior to that, I am a field person that 
manages the response to and recovery from disasters.
    Mr. Edwards. And I understand that. With all due respect, 
because you have been dealing with that for, let us say, the 
last 10 months, it seems to me like some of those would be top 
of mind, and I just find that very curious that you would need 
to say you needed 2 weeks to pull that together.
    And because I have got limited time, and I want Mr. Donalds 
to have as much time as possible, I will move on to my next 
question.
    All of you had mentioned that--and I think we all agree--
every disaster is different, but it seems like there are an 
awful lot of similarities. Hard winds come through, buildings 
get destroyed, houses get destroyed, businesses get closed, 
streets get flooded, utilities go out. I mean, there is a lot 
of similarities that should not catch us by surprise.
    And so, I am just curious. After hearing you say, or remind 
us that every disaster is different, how would you say that 
this disaster has been different than others that you have 
dealt with in the past? And I would appreciate an answer from 
each of you.
    Ms. McFadden, we will start down here.
    Ms. McFadden. I would just highlight the coastal nature, 
the impact of so many folks living along the water and close to 
waterways. So, in terms of thinking about resilience going 
forward, we need to be thinking about building up and thinking 
about elevation standards because it seems impracticable to try 
to move people very far away from the coast.
    Mr. Edwards. All right, thank you.
    And so that strikes me by surprise because there is a 
coastal nature, it appears to me, with most every hurricane 
that we experience.
    Mr. Sanchez, how is this disaster different than those you 
have seen in the past?
    Mr. Sanchez. Congressman, I appreciate your point. I think 
there are some similarities. I think we come in for some local 
perspective with some humility. You see one hurricane, you have 
seen one hurricane.
    But there are some similarities across that, and one of the 
things we continue to see across the board as we have more 
disasters--18 separate $1 billion-disasters last year, seven 
this year. Unfortunately, we will probably break that record--
is we have an expectation from our constituents that we improve 
the sequence and that we are better and quicker at delivering 
those resources and how we bring in, from our SBA, for example, 
our whole of SBA to that to be able to meet those growing 
needs.
    And so, for us, I think one of the things that has been 
exciting is bringing the whole-of-SBA approach. You know, we 
see here in this community some of the challenges, like on the 
coast where I come from, is how do we also move recovery and 
time natural resilience as someone is rebuilding.
    We are starting hurricane season now, so we want to make 
sure they are more resilient for the storms ahead as well.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you.
    And so, in the interest of time, I am going go to move on. 
I will let you off the hook, Mr. McCool. I am going to move on 
to my next question.
    Is there a regular process after a disaster like this where 
multiple agencies drop back after--again, after the fact, and 
talk with one another to do a formal after-action review? I 
mean, it obviously requires a lot of coordination between 
multiple agencies. I am just wondering is there a formal 
process in place for you to do that? And if so, has that taken 
place yet after this disaster?
    Mr. McCool, we will start down here.
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
    We currently have seven other Federal agencies in our JFO 
right now. So, we have--and they are focused on the long-term 
recovery. As a matter of fact, we are doing a pilot program 
with SBA. We have 20 SBA staff looking at the long-term 
recovery for this disaster, which was catastrophic.
    So yes, of the 4,000 staff from the FEMA side that were 
deployed, each of them have formal AAR processes and lessons 
learned that they do, and we coordinate with our other Federal 
agencies.
    Mr. Edwards. And is there a report provided to Congress or 
some other entity after this review is completed?
    Mr. McCool. Our report is forwarded to headquarters. I will 
have to get back to you to see if it is sent to Congress or----
    Mr. Edwards. All right. Thank you.
    I would like to ask one more question real quick, because 
this has implication to us in the mountains of western North 
Carolina, where one of the most recent disasters for us was 
complicated by what has been described to me as a 
overcomplicated application process.
    Is there anything--have any of you heard that before, and 
is there anything being done to streamline the application 
process?
    Mr. McCool, probably you would be most appropriate to 
answer.
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
    Yes, sir, I have heard that. One of our Administrator's 
goals, top priority, is to reduce paperwork and streamline the 
application process for survivors so they have access to our 
programs.
    We use disaster survivor assistance teams. As a matter of 
fact, we have 657 of them here for Hurricane Ian. But, in rural 
areas like you are, they have iPads, tablets, and they are able 
to go house to house to register survivors on the FEMA side.
    We also have mobile emergency response vehicles that we 
will be able to set up in parking lots, and they are mobile, 
and they have satellite capabilities.
    Mr. Edwards. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for 
the latitude to go a bit over.
    I will yield. Thank you.
    Mr. Sessions. Gentleman yields back.
    At this time, I'll now yield myself time.
    It is easier when you play the position I do, because you 
can hear the responses. And I want to go back to some of the 
things that both--all three of our Members have brought up. It 
may be rehashing. I want to dig a little bit deeper if I can.
    We heard, Mr. McCool, that there were 111 travel trailers 
that were provided. Today, some 16 remain. Is that correct?
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Sessions. You brought in some 250 people to help, and I 
know they are not all in that--the trailers, but they are into 
removing dangerous items, preparing, long-term planning, each 
of those things.
    It seems like, to me, that some of the rules and 
regulations related to that could be streamlined. I think you 
have agreed to look at some of these things. But I am 
interested in what Mr. Edwards said about this report, what 
might be an after-action or a mid-action report.
    I believe that you, at FEMA, are the lead on behalf of the 
efforts that go on here. Is that correct?
    Mr. McCool. For the temporary housing mission? Yes, sir.
    Mr. Sessions. No, sir. I am sorry. Let me go back.
    Got the housing. Is there a lead for the Federal Government 
from Article II, which are these agencies--is there a lead 
person who is in charge of or was in charge of coming down and 
coordinating the response on behalf of the Federal Government?
    Mr. McCool. Sir, I was the Federal Coordinating Officer, 
and my responsibility is to lead the response and coordinate 
recovery efforts, so that would be me.
    Mr. Sessions. Then this is what I am suggesting. So, in my 
opinion, FEMA, you, would be that lead coordinator.
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Sessions. That means that you would be responsible--
with some sort of a battle plan, so to speak, you would 
coordinate with SBA. You would coordinate with HUD. You would 
understand these other agencies that were involved?
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Sessions. And you believe that that response that you 
have gotten may or may not exist, that report, and it may or 
may not have gone to Congress?
    Mr. McCool. I do not know if it has gone to Congress, sir. 
I will check and get back to you for the record.
    Mr. Sessions. But one exists?
    Mr. McCool. The----
    Mr. Sessions. This overall plan, FEMA as the lead----
    Mr. McCool. Uh-huh.
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Is responsible for the 
coordination. That would tell me that FEMA, the coordinator, 
was aware of circumstances, the need, the result, the 
interaction, the moving the government toward their answers 
across the board. Is that correct?
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. We have incident strategic plans that 
cover all Federal actions.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir. Well, you mentioned you had some 
4,000 people that could----
    Mr. McCool. Uh-huh.
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Be providing feedback.
    Mr. McCool. Uh-huh.
    Mr. Sessions. But does it come to a point where there is a 
lead coordinator within FEMA, presumptively you?
    Does that move upstream to where there is a list of the 
needs, of the priorities, of the advancement toward those 
goals? Is that ever coordinated, or----
    Mr. McCool. Oh, yes, sir.
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Is everybody on their own?
    Mr. McCool. Oh, no, sir. On a daily basis, we have unified 
coordination group meetings, and we set objectives, priorities, 
and we track them, and we follow them. We have metrics to them. 
And we do that since day one of this disaster, and we do that 
for all of our disasters.
    Mr. Sessions. OK. So, in that coordination, was there 
conversation with your key partners about looking at this 
disaster? I know we have said a hurricane is kind of a 
hurricane and yet, there are particulars because of the people 
or the locations.
    Is there conversation about CDBG money and its impact on 
this island and following the law or discretion that may be 
necessary; of the total amount of money, housing versus 
businesses?
    Was that ever in the conversation?
    And what is your thinking there?
    The reason why I say this, because I come from the business 
community in my background.
    Mr. McCool. Uh-huh.
    Mr. Sessions. And the business community has to have 
businesses back up if they are going to provide what could be 
revenue to the city or to the organization to make sure it 
continues.
    What was your evaluation as the lead of this group of 
trying to coordinate that recommendation versus the guidelines?
    Mr. McCool. All of the agencies I mentioned, to include HUD 
and SBA, were mission assigned. And, in our joint field office 
along with the state of Florida, Florida Department of 
Emergency Management. And they are still there to this day up 
in Lake Mary, as well as down here, right up the road.
    And we coordinate on a weekly basis in terms of priorities, 
in terms of what you need, what we could do, what you could 
possibly do. That coordination is ongoing.
    Mr. Sessions. What is your evaluation, any of the three of 
you, on that recommendation for getting the money and handing 
it out versus what might be affordable housing, what might be 
SBA loans, which might be, actually, to look at the island, to 
look at this area and say, here is real needs. Is there an 
impediment to that process? Is there an impediment to that 
outcome? Or do you have the ability to come in and say, we are 
going to have to spend more money on businesses as opposed to 
affordable housing because of the particular circumstance here?
    Mr. McCool. We work close--do you want to take that? Sure.
    Ms. McFadden. If I may, sir, in Washington, we are not 
making the decisions about how the funds are used locally, and 
it is not even the Federal Government with our counterparts in 
Florida. With the CDBG funds, the state or the counties that 
have been allocated the funds go through a local planning 
process.
    So, in allocating the funds to them, we use data from FEMA 
and from the Small Business Administration about uninsured 
losses. But, ultimately, those decisions are made by the state 
and the county leaders.
    Mr. Sessions. So, you are suggesting to me, very directly, 
that that money would come--what we might call local money, 
Federal money that would come.
    Do you place restrictions or rules and regulations on 
those?
    Ms. McFadden. It is Federal money, so of course we do, 
because we----
    Mr. Sessions. OK.
    Ms. McFadden [continuing]. Need to ensure compliance with 
all the laws----
    Mr. Sessions. All right.
    Ms. McFadden [continuing]. And the regulations.
    We are transparent in the data that we use in allocating, 
and we say essentially, This is how much housing need we think 
you have, how much small business need, and how much 
infrastructure need.
    Mr. Sessions. So, there is a recommendation?
    Ms. McFadden. And, if you want to use it differently, come 
and talk to us, show us how your local needs are different from 
what the Federal data reflects.
    Mr. Sessions. Is that within the discretion or a waiver 
that we spoke about in the beginning? Is that----
    Ms. McFadden. Depending on the unique circumstance, but we 
routinely see communities spending their money moving amongst 
the pots differently from how we initially did the allocation.
    Mr. Sessions. Would that be up to a county to make that 
decision----
    Ms. McFadden. In----
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Or would that be up to a state 
to make that decision?
    Ms. McFadden. In Florida, it would be either, because we 
made allocations to the state as well as to multiple counties. 
So, whoever has the direct relationship with HUD is the 
decision-maker about how to do that plan.
    Once they make the plan, they can amend the plan as well. 
They are not held to it.
    Mr. Sessions. Have they sought some of these waivers that 
you have not approved?
    Ms. McFadden. Unfortunately, we are just at the starting 
gate now with the money. So, there are two plans out for public 
review. Nothing has even come in to us. All the plans will come 
to us by September 20.
    Mr. Sessions. So, you believe, in your testimony today, 
that the way the circumstances exist, that you would be given 
that flexibility to effectively work with a local 
establishment--a local government on that money, and that you, 
under the law, would be flexible enough to understand their 
individual needs?
    Ms. McFadden. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Sessions. That is important for me, and that is an 
important part for this community to understand, because there 
is a concern about the ability to have business come back that 
provides the revenue and those mechanisms.
    I am interested in going to SBA and their take on this 
matter of the money that they would have available and whether 
there are any rules or regulations that inhibit your 
flexibility to effectively hear from what we have now heard Ms. 
McFadden say, if you agree, local entities. In other words, 
local legislative body being able to effectively deal with you, 
and then with the end user, which might be someone that you are 
going to give a loan to.
    Mr. Sanchez. Sure. Chairman, thank you so much for that 
question.
    I think we are in an exciting time in SBA in that we used 
to be a lend and leave program. We are probably reimagining the 
greatest shift in how we approach disasters in the agency's 70-
year history.
    When it comes to your question, we are looking at 
everything, what is within our rulemaking, with a lens of 
focused visiting with local businesses, chambers, and officials 
to see, one, not just what we bring, what do you need so that 
we can adapt to that, going just beyond lending, but bringing 
other parts of SBA through reconsideration, helping people be 
more resilient, having them access to other SBA programs that 
we have not before.
    So, for us, anything is on the table. We are here to learn. 
This is the first time we have been here for midterm and long-
term recovery, so we are here to capture some lessons.
    And I do appreciate the question, in terms of some 
barriers, because we do have an ask in terms of what can be 
done from our partners in Congress and elsewhere, is 
duplication of benefits. It is a significant issue that impacts 
the disaster survivor.
    Right now, in just focusing on a relationship with FEMA, a 
disaster survivor is considered to be taking duplication of 
benefits if they get a $5,000 loan from FEMA and a $50,000 
grant from SBA. That has become cumbersome.
    So, a disaster survivor becomes very weary: Do I want this 
program, or do I want that program? Am I in violation of the 
law? Is this impeding future, down the line, some benefits I 
could get from CGBR?
    Let me do the math for you. The average payout for FEMA for 
a grant is $5,000. The average loan for SBA is $50,000. By the 
time you come to SBA, it is because you do not have the capital 
that you need to recover, so you are coming here for a low-
interest, long-term loan so we can help.
    And it frustrates me. Quite frankly, it frustrates disaster 
survivors that they have to worry about that balance. And so, 
the intent is we are a loan. At some point, you are going to 
pay us back. And we have got some great success rates at that.
    At the end of the day, the $5,000 that FEMA grants a 
disaster survivor, whether it is exactly that $5,000 or, at 
some point, that $5,000 over the 30-year loan is coming back--
and so, if our goal is to put as much capital on the ground, in 
the hands of disaster survivors, to be on the ground quicker, 
to rebuild quicker, and to get our economy moving back quicker, 
that is the single greatest thing that I think Congress can do 
right now in terms of when it comes to that front end of the 
disaster, to help unleash the power of both those programs and 
make it less complicated and less cumbersome for someone that 
is going through a very bad day, post a disaster.
    Mr. Sessions. Well, I did hear you allude to trying to make 
decisions about which program you might want.
    And then I heard you say, then, Congress might want to 
streamline some things. What would you want Congress to 
streamline? What authority would you like for us to give you? 
Authority may be discretion. Authority may be the law. 
Authority may be a timeframe.
    What specifically would you say, because you are talking to 
Members of Congress here, who are in the direct line of sight 
to try and fix these things?
    Mr. Sanchez. My ask, most simply, is this: Write into the 
law that a loan from SBA and a grant from FEMA is not 
considered a duplication of benefits. That is the one single 
piece in law for us at the front end is complicating the life 
for disaster survivors.
    We are doing everything we can within our rulemaking to 
better customer service, get on the ground quicker, be here 
longer. But that is the single, most impactful thing that 
Congress can do, is make sure that the FEMA grant and SBA loan 
together are not considered a duplication of benefits.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.
    Does any other Member seek time? Round two.
    The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Donalds, is recognized.
    Mr. Donalds. So I am back again, I see.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Real quick, Ms. McFadden. A quick follow-up to a 
conversation you were having with the Chairman around CDBG-DR 
awards. I want to clarify this.
    In the instance of where we are, let us say, in Lee County, 
Florida, would Lee County, Florida, have essentially the 
unilateral authority to make adjustments to an award in CDBG-DR 
money if, in light of their work plan that they provide to HUD, 
that they realize in actuality there are adjustments that do 
need to be made? Do they have that authority to make that 
decision?
    Ms. McFadden. Not unilaterally, sir. We need to have some 
conversations to understand why the current needs of the 
community are not what we reflected.
    So, per statute, 70 percent of the funds have to primarily 
benefit people in communities that are up to 80 percent of area 
median income. So, if there is any hope to do other than 
primarily benefit low-and moderate-income people, that is 
definitely going to require a waiver.
    Mr. Donalds. Quick----
    Ms. McFadden. But, when we look at between the different 
categories of activities, we need to have some conversation, 
but the permission to do that will not be unreasonably 
withheld.
    Mr. Donalds. OK. So, a quick follow-up to that, because you 
make a key point about the percentage of median income. If the 
county or counties or state--and this is a more broad question 
throughout the country of this kind of a program--if the 
determination is made that key infrastructure improvements are 
critical to the livelihood of said residents, is HUD open to 
that interpretation of disaster recovery awards under HUD?
    Ms. McFadden. Historically, we have granted waivers. When--
to serve low-and moderate-income people, you have to do 
something that is going to serve all the people. For example, 
doing infrastructure repairs.
    Mr. Donalds. OK. Thank you so much for that.
    Mr. Sanchez, missed you the last time. I am back.
    Obviously, we do understand here about SBA disaster 
recovery awards. You stated in your testimony that 1.9 billion 
was approved by SBA. I am going to assume, when you said the 
impacted area or highly impacted area, 371 million, that is--
for argument sake, let us say specifically to the Barrier 
Island region here in southwest Florida.
    Is there a disconnect between loan approval and loan 
disbursement? And the reason why I ask that is because I have 
had several constituents who were frustrated with SBA, that SBA 
would give them an approval for the loan, but disbursement is 
at some time off in the future, that SBA never told 
constituents when disbursement was going to occur.
    And the reason I ask that is I am a recovering banker. If I 
approve a loan, like, next day, we are disbursing funds.
    So, can you speak to that?
    Mr. Sanchez. Sure. Just a point of clarification. The $1.9 
billion is for the entire disaster. The $371 million is for 
businesses specifically. Typically lending works out 80 percent 
homeowner/renters, 20 percent businesses.
    Mr. Donalds. Fair enough.
    Mr. Sanchez. But, in disbursement, there is a disconnect. 
And I think we are tackling that. You have heard it from your 
constituents. I have been here at least four times, meeting 
with local folks. I have taken some of those constituent calls 
myself to figure out what the issues are.
    The best way to think about it is there are grants, and 
then, at the end of the day, we are still a complex financial 
transaction. We are trying to figure out how to make it less 
complex and more customer driven.
    And I get the frustration. After Hurricane Ike, it took my 
mom 4 years to get back into her home. Those are the--that is 
the view that I come from to these things.
    And so, the way it works is you get a loan approval for 
whatever amount that is. At then, initially, we disburse 
$25,000 so they have at least that much capital to keep moving 
forward and begin recovery.
    The friction and the point points become is then, because 
it is generally modeled after a construction loan, someone has 
to submit additional paperwork to release more funds. So, 
contractor estimates, building permits, insurance 
documentation.
    One of the things we are doing is trying to do a better job 
of being more forthright for the customer of saying, what--you 
know, what do you have to provide in the future? And, within 
our own rulemaking authority, to the Chairman's question of, 
you know, what can we do all better, is we have heard it here 
for the past year. We have taken that back. We are rolling up 
our sleeves, and we are delivering. There is more work to do.
    But here is what we have done to reduce the paperwork. You 
no longer have to provide that--again, to duplication of 
benefits, you no longer have to provide that AIP, that 
assurance of insurance proceeds. You do not have to do that 
anymore. Do not have to do permits anymore.
    We instituted that, hearing back from folks here on the 
ground in February and May, so that is already having some 
impacts. And so, for us, we still have some paperwork we are 
going to have to require, but we are reducing that number to be 
able to keep that money flowing as quickly as we can.
    Mr. Donalds. OK. A follow-up to that.
    So, if the process, generally speaking, is the way a bank 
would manage a construction loan, where you are having to 
verify receipt of key documents in order to release new funds, 
totally understand that piece.
    Broader question: Does SBA have the manpower in order to 
effectively manage that when you have tens of thousands of 
newly approved recipients coming in all at the same time trying 
to get disbursements? Can SBA effectively manage the 
construction loan--for argument sake, the construction loan 
disbursal process in a disaster recovery scenario?
    Mr. Sanchez. Yes, sir. So, a little bit of perspective. We 
are currently on the ground in 22 disasters across this 
country, nine states, two territories, 200 counties. And we 
learned some lessons during COVID. And some of the biggest 
transformations I talked about was the customer service 
experience.
    Step one was right people, right jobs. The lending piece, 
direct loans used to be under my shop of recovery and 
resilience. We have moved that now to capital access. They do 
lending day in and day out, so right people, right jobs. They 
have got the skill. They have got the talent. And a step to 
that----
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Sanchez, real quick, it is not about 
talent or skill. It is manpower and scalability. If you are in 
22 areas of the country managing multiple natural disasters 
from the Disaster Recovery Loan Program under SBA, do you have 
the manpower to keep up with all of the constituency requests 
in all this jurisdiction, because I will tell you that is like 
a loan department at a $2 billion bank having fresh capital for 
$10 billion. You do not have the manpower to do $10 billion in 
loan disbursements. You do not.
    And so that is why I go back to that original question.
    Mr. Sanchez. Sure.
    Mr. Donalds. I want to move off of that, because I think 
that is something that we, probably with SBA, need to figure 
out.
    I want to talk inspectors, Mr. McCool. Got to come back to 
you.
    In a letter that was sent on March 21, 2023, to 
Administrator Criswell--I sent--requesting two additional 
program delivery managers, one additional taskforce lead, two 
additional site inspector crew leads, 12 additional site 
inspectors for Cape Coral, Fort Myers, Fort Myers Beach, and 
Sanibel. Five months later, still no response from the 
Administrator.
    So, like, I do not even have a response from the 
Administrator 5 months later. Why? What is the issue with 
inspectors being able to be deployed to our area, because I am 
quite sure you understand it is hard for my local government 
individuals to get infrastructure projects up and running if I 
cannot even get a FEMA inspector down here to approve what my 
locals have already inspected, basically to sign off that it is 
good to go for rebuilding.
    So, what is the status, and why the backlog, and why is it 
so difficult for us to be able to get FEMA inspectors in to 
just sign off on the work that my local governments have been 
doing for our infrastructure projects to get rebuilt and back 
on track?
    Mr. McCool. Sir, thank you--thank you for the question.
    I will track down the response to that letter. I can tell 
you, on the ground, we have 150 inspectors. Here, we have 50. 
All the inspections are on track.
    Lee County schools, for example, will be done within the 
next 2 weeks. And all of the recovery scope and meetings that 
our program delivery managers do are 100 percent complete.
    So, I will get more information. I will work with your 
staff and get more information.
    Mr. Donalds. Yes. I would like to know that, because I 
remember we had a meeting, and some of those officials are in 
this room, and we were having meetings about the issue with 
inspectors.
    Mr. McCool. Right.
    Mr. Donalds. And, just to be blunt, Mr. McCool, I started 
talking to the press, started tweeting. And all of a sudden, 
they are like, oh, somebody called. Like, you said something in 
a presser, and we got a call from FEMA.
    And, just to be blunt, I just do not think it should 
operate that way. Regardless of who the Member is or what the 
constituency is, if they need to be able to get those 
inspectors into the area in a, almost, in a strike force type 
of response, then that is just what needs to be figured out.
    And, again, that kind of go goes back to one of my earlier 
questions about what are the statutory--the statutory 
refinement that needs to happen from Congress.
    Last question, Mr. Sanchez, Mr. McCool. Thanks so much----
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Donalds [continuing]. For all the witnesses being here.
    Last question--and, Mr. Chairman, thank you for your 
indulgence.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes.
    Mr. Donalds. Last question on this.
    The runaround. A lot of my constituents have had issues 
with paperwork fiascoes--something is not being spelled right; 
having to get another document; the initial decline or the 
initial disapproval they would receive from FEMA or SBA; and 
then being told--actually, in this very building--that you are 
going to get an initial decline, that just means you have to go 
back and go through all the things that went wrong and then 
reapply.
    What--what needs to happen to stop that from occurring, 
because, when people are in a disaster recovery mode, they do 
not have time to check every dot. They are trying to assess 
their lives.
    So, can you guys speak to that? And what are we going to do 
in your recommendations so that people get the help that they 
need when they need it and not have to go through regulatory 
check box?
    Mr. Sanchez. Sure. Glad to start.
    From our side, we have 22 people still here on the ground. 
The approval and the first disbursement, one step. We 
understand there are frustrations for the rest of that. And so 
those customer issues, I have been involved with myself. I 
handled probably five or six of those to get a lens on those. 
And it is the paperwork.
    So, one, we are reducing what people do not really need to 
submit to us. It is a matter of process. We are taking outside 
of the rules, and then working to make sure that, for the rest 
of those--we are pivoting now. We are not waiting until this 
recovery is over. We are changing those rules today. And so 
those are the kinds of things we want to listen to.
    You alluded to being referred from FEMA to SBA, to be 
declined, to access other things at FEMA. We have already 
reduced the threshold. Last hurricane season, because we got 
that bureaucratic red tape out of the way, we were able to put 
an additional $38 million on the ground to disaster survivors 
that need it most. I think working with FEMA and our folks, 
local, state, and Federal, I expect, in that partnership, that 
that will be--I know from our folks on the other side of the 
table, I think that it is less than a year before that is going 
to be done away with, so you do not have to go through that 
step.
    And so, I know, across the board, we are figuring out how 
we can do better, work quicker, and be more customer driven.
    Mr. McCool. Sir, you are right. One of the things our 
Administrator is trying to do is cut down on the bureaucratic 
red tape and the access to our programs.
    For example, in the past--if you were a renter or a 
homeowner, you would have only certain documents to show that 
you--to prove that. We have streamlined all that. And you can 
do a whole myriad of electric bills or--or even a letter from a 
county emergency manager or a county official. Yes, I am a 
resident of that structure. Try to get access to our programs.
    And we meet, as you well know, people at the worst time of 
their lives. And, when they are in a disaster recovery center 
maybe with just the Wal-Mart bag, we have to give them the 
personal attention that they need and deserve. And you have our 
assurance that our caseworkers at FEMA, who are still on the 
job, will not rest until every survivor gets what they are 
authorized to in accordance with our regulations. But we are 
working hard to reduce the red tape.
    Mr. Donalds. Thank you.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.
    Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chair.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Biggs?
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And, out of respect for time for you, I thank you all for 
being here, again.
    And so, I had a bunch of questions that I already have here 
that I did not get time to ask. So, Mr. Chairman, per normal, I 
am going to submit those questions and encourage--and hope that 
all of you would respond to the questions, because we will 
submit questions in writing to you. And, again, thank you for 
being here.
    And thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will yield.
    Mr. Sessions. Thanks very much.
    Mr. Biggs has, in fact, has reiterated what I believe I 
covered with each of you at the time we not only made a request 
for you to be a part of this today, but personally with each of 
you that have agreed to be here. We are going to use this as 
getting us better. We are going to use it as an inward 
viewpoint of not only the U.S. Congress and its responsibility, 
but also the flexibility in laws and rules and regulations by 
which you operate.
    And I think what Mr. Biggs said is exactly right in his 
insistence that I have seen in many areas, and that is we need 
to get better. But Congress does play a role in that, and your 
help in getting us there would be appreciated. And so, I hope 
the spirit in which Mr. Biggs, Mr. Donalds, Mr. Edwards, and 
myself have approached you today, that we would receive back 
that opportunity.
    Thank you very much.
    The gentleman, Mr. Edwards, do you seek time?
    Gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Edwards. If I may. And I do have several more 
questions, but will submit those in writing.
    Mr. Chair, if I might ask one question----
    Mr. Sessions. Gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Edwards. In each of your opening statements, you seem 
to have indicated that we keep score by the amount of dollars 
that are distributed. And I am not taking that away, because we 
all live and die by dollars. But I am also curious to know: Do 
you live by or do you measure the effectiveness of your 
particular agencies by any performance metrics other than just 
how many dollars that we are able to distribute?
    And you can make that real quick. Mr. McCool, we will start 
with you.
    Mr. McCool. Yes, sir. Yes, sir. Thank you for the question.
    In each of our program areas, we do have metrics, and we 
follow up on those metrics. I will take housing for an example. 
Housing is tough. It is tough. We absolutely acknowledge that, 
especially in a special flood hazard area. It is tough.
    Our public assistance program, you know, the roads, the 
bridges, building the infrastructure, that takes time. And the 
billions of dollars that we will spend and work to achieve 
those goals, we track progress and measure success project by 
project.
    I mean, in Lee County alone, you know, so far, there is 
$180 million obligated for about 100 VA projects, a billion 
dollars almost in the queue. So, we measure each and every one 
of those, project by project.
    On the individual assistance side, I mentioned housing. We 
are going out every month, and we are meeting with the 
survivors and figuring out and trying to work to their 
permanent housing solution.
    So yes, sir, we do.
    Mr. Edwards. All right. Thank you.
    Mr. McCool. We have metrics that we follow.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you. And, in the--and I appreciate that.
    And, in the interest of time, because I am going to have 
more follow-up questions on these answers, I will be very 
specific in the questions that I submit.
    So, thank you. Thank you for your indulgence.
    And thank you for being here. We appreciate you taking the 
time.
    Mr. Sessions. Gentleman yields back his time.
    I will be the last person to address this panel, and I want 
to also make sure that each of you know how much we appreciate 
not only your time, but the time in preparation, but also the 
time in finalizing this. When we come up with our questions, we 
will get them to you.
    I would like to not ask a question, but, rather, to allude 
to an issue, because I think Mr. Edwards was there, Mr. 
Donalds' was kind of was a follow-up to mine, and that is: I am 
wanting to make sure we get closer on this understanding about 
CDBG money and the things that would flow.
    I heard Ms. McFadden very carefully, and I agree with her 
that they will offer the money with what they believe is how it 
would be used. Now, that is, until you tell me differently, you 
are going to do it the way we do it.
    But I think that what Mr. Donalds is asking for--and I 
would be seeking the same thing also--that is the ability to 
come back with thank you for your view of this, we believe the 
view should be different. We believe the view should be based 
upon our actual needs.
    That is the crux of an issue that I really want to dig at 
about what sort of flexibility, because it is not thy will do 
this, but I want to make sure it is--and we can take into 
account and we have the flexibility to now agree with you, as 
opposed to, no, it says here 70/30, and thy shall not break 
that.
    I would like to make sure that we allow that opportunity in 
law to give you, under this emergency determination that the 
President might be given--the corresponding agencies would be 
given the flexibility in negotiation erring on the side of some 
bit of understanding as opposed to a hard-and-fast rule.
    So, I want to thank each of you. It is our hope--and I 
stated this when we were in the back room--it is my hope that 
you will be able to take time to hear from customers, people 
who live here, constituents.
    Mr. Donalds has a staff that has, quite honestly, been, I 
think, doing a great job with limitations that you had, and he 
had. But we are going to hear back in the second panel.
    So, I excuse each of the witnesses at this point and would 
ask that the next panel please present themself.
    We will be in recess for 2 minutes while that occurs.
    [Recess.]
    Mr. Sessions. The Committee will come to order.
    I am very pleased to move forward to our second panel, and 
I met each of these gentlemen last night and want to introduce 
them at this time.
    The gentleman, Brian Hamman, serves as Chairman and 
District 4 Commissioner on the Lee County Board of County 
Commissioners. In the private sector, Mr. Hamman serves as 
President and CEO of the Greater Fort Myers Chamber of 
Commerce.
    His testimony today will provide insight into the issues 
that county-wide government faced in responding to this 
hurricane's impact.
    Second, the gentleman, the Honorable Kevin Anderson, was 
sworn in as the 62nd Mayor of Fort Myers, Florida, on November 
16, 2020, after serving as Ward 4 Councilman for 2 previous 
years. Before taking office, Mayor Anderson served for 24 years 
in Fort Myers Police Department, law enforcement.
    Mr. Anderson's testimony will also provide perspective 
about the challenges municipal governments in this region have 
faced following the challenges of the hurricane.
    Last, my friend, Chauncey Goss, is a resident of Sanibel, 
Florida, who, like other local witnesses and many in the 
audience today, lived through this hurricane and can attest to 
the challenges that southwest Florida faced in its aftermath.
    Mr. Goss is actively involved in local business and 
regional government, but his testimony today will focus on the 
perspective of individual residents and families affected by 
the storm.
    Mr. Goss, I would like for you to know that your father, 
Porter Goss, is a very dear friend of mine, served on the Rules 
Committee for a number of years. And I was honored to have 
served with your father. And it is my hope that you will be 
able to offer your father and your mother the best from our 
visit here today.
    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will now 
stand and raise their right hand.
    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you 
are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God?
    Let the record reflect that all three witnesses answered in 
the affirmative.
    The gentlemen, you may be seated.
    We appreciate each of you being here today. We appreciate 
your balance and the time that you are spending to be able to 
work through and talk about things that are very difficult, 
painful to you, painful to others. But you are leaders. You are 
expected to come and bring your ideas to the table and to 
effectively present those.
    I am very sure that that is exactly where we are today, 
that each of you are prepared to present yourself in a way that 
will benefit not just this Committee, but the people of this 
area. And I want to thank you very much.
    We will move first to Mr. Hamman. The gentleman is 
recognized.

                       STATEMENT OF BRIAN HAMMAN

                                CHAIRMAN

                   LEE COUNTY BOARD OF COMMISSIONERS

    Mr. Hamman. Thank you very much. Good morning, Mr. Chair--
--
    Mr. Sessions. That microphone, please, sir.
    Mr. Hamman. I apologize.
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Hamman. Well, good morning, Chairman and distinguished 
Committee Members. Thank you very much for coming to Lee 
County.
    On behalf of the residents of Lee County, I want to thank 
you very much for your interest in this topic and would like to 
take a moment just to thank all of America for the outpouring 
of support and love in the wake of Hurricane Ian. This was a 
disaster like none other that we had ever seen, and it felt 
like America wrapped its arms around us and was there for us 
when we needed it. So, thank you.
    This morning, I would like to begin with some prepared 
remarks. At this moment, Hurricane Ian is ranked as the third 
costliest tropical system to make landfall in the United 
States, only behind Hurricane Katrina in 2005 and Hurricane 
Harvey in 2017.
    As a native of Lee County, I can testify that Hurricane Ian 
struck a blow to our home like none other. We had seen 
hurricanes before, but none like this. And recovering from a 
storm like this will take many more months and perhaps many 
more years.
    On September 28, 2022, Ian pummeled Lee County with wind 
speeds of 155 miles per hour and gusts of around 161 miles per 
hour. It brought 15 feet of storm surge. It destroyed more than 
5,000 homes, 284 businesses. Another 910 businesses suffered 
major damage. In total, Lee County believes we have $112 
billion in damages.
    The tropical storm impacted every beach, all county parks, 
and every single traffic signal. And I can say you do not 
realize how much you appreciate stopping at a red light until 
they are all gone. The amount of debris was staggering, more 
than 11 million cubic yards of debris countywide.
    Some of the most memorable images of this storm will be the 
bridges on Sanibel and Matlacha that were broken. But the 
devastation to our infrastructure was much deeper than that. 
Within Lee County government, our largest infrastructure hits 
were to these departments: Utilities, parks and recreation, and 
facilities and construction management. For example, in our 
county government damage assessment inventory, it shows an 
estimated cost of $297.3 million, and our utilities department 
alone makes up about 19 percent of that number.
    As with any disaster of this scale, our Federal partners 
were and still are critical to our response. FEMA, the Small 
Business Administration, and HUD have worked side by side with 
us. And, as with every process, there are highlights, and there 
are challenges with these agencies.
    When speaking about FEMA, we were exceptionally grateful 
that FEMA had a representative arrive to work in the emergency 
operations center prior to landfall on Tuesday, September 27. 
And this enabled us to work with someone who could communicate 
with FEMA's command center directly from our emergency 
operations center.
    FEMA also embedded a gold incident management team within 
days of landfall, providing a direct line from Lee County to 
Federal leadership. All Federal agencies, from Health and Human 
Services, the White House, Department of Defense partners, this 
was critical to have those lines of communication open because 
of that gold incident management team.
    FEMA stood up a large number of very effective disaster 
survivor assistance teams and disaster recovery centers. These 
were all exceptionally productive. We had challenges, though, 
with FEMA, related to in-the-field communications, lack of 
inspectors, and lack of trailers.
    For example, FEMA did not meet our community's expectation 
for trailer arrival. Some communities take months before they 
establish a need. We were ready for this help 45 days after 
landfall. FEMA needs to be ready to mobilize on the community's 
timeline if FEMA is going to meet the community's needs.
    And it did not help that FEMA initially blamed its slow 
process on our local land development code. This triggered 
waves of distrust from the public with government and a rift 
between Federal and county collaboration.
    Finally, given the storm's magnitude, FEMA needed more of 
its inspectors here sooner rather than later. FEMA also 
discredited our local elected property appraiser by issuing a 
letter advising the county not to rely on his values for making 
substantial damages determinations. This caused unnecessary 
panic and a slowdown for people seeking permits to rebuild.
    SBA: We were grateful for the SBA representatives who were 
engaged in our community. They attended public meetings, they 
interacted with individuals, they networked at events, and they 
handed out cell phone numbers. Anecdotally, we know of 
individuals who had positive interactions and received SBA 
loans somewhat quickly.
    The challenge was that SBA's experience is inconsistent. 
Many, particularly those with catastrophic loss, were 
challenged to produce the myriad documents necessary to obtain 
help. And, as local government elected officials, we were 
challenged to get straight answers from SBA related to 
allocations versus distributions for those in our community.
    The SBA is accustomed to reporting allocations as primary 
performance metrics, but what was needed was proof that the 
dollars were actually flowing into individuals' accounts. This 
caused mistrust among local officials and SBA reps and 
misinformation among community members.
    And of course, there was the perpetual challenge that the 
SBA perception is that it is for businesses and not 
individuals. Perhaps it could be put under the FEMA individual 
assistance classification.
    And then, finally, the HUD Department. HUD provided near 
immediate onsite technical assistance through the Office of 
Special Needs Assistance Programs to assist with the 
consolidation and closure of mass shelters. The HUD field 
office provided real-time support and funding flexibility 
through grant or agreement amendments to provide rental 
assistance for households leaving mass shelters without a 
residence.
    We are grateful that HUD provided a direct allocation of 
$1.1 billion to support recovery in a timely manner and that 
HUD assigned Aaron Gagne from the Office of Disaster Recovery 
to support Lee County's CDBG-DR allocation process.
    Mr. Gagne was assigned to New York City after Hurricane 
Sandy, which was actually the largest direct allocation 
program, I believe. It was $4.2 billion. His extensive 
knowledge and lessons that he learned from that program have 
continued to benefit us here in Lee County. The experience 
really mattered.
    The challenge, though, with HUD is that, in as much as the 
funding is in response to the hurricane, the ability to 
disburse the funds in the community takes time and is complex. 
There is a disconnect between saying `hurricane repair funding' 
and having the money then arrive more than a year after 
landfall.
    Some immediate needs and continued unmet needs are unable 
to be met using these HUD funds due to program limitations, 
such as the creation of volunteer housing. The public and local 
officials are having a hard time also comprehending the 
eligibility requirements specifically related to the low to 
moderate income limits.
    In my opinion, as a resident born and raised here and a 
County Commissioner, local jurisdictions are an incredibly 
efficient level of government when it comes to dispatching 
resources. In the event of a catastrophic hurricane like 
Hurricane Ian, those resources become strained, though, very 
quickly and very limited. And this is where we look to our 
Federal partners for assistance in those times of need.
    However, there were many moments across many different 
agencies where the regulatory hurdles, miscommunication, and 
burdensome administrative requirements were too big and too 
rigid to attend to the community's needs. What was needed at 
that time was urgency and flexibility.
    In conclusion, I would like to thank you all for taking the 
time to come to our community today. I would like to thank our 
Federal delegation, especially Representative Byron Donalds, 
who helped us make today's event possible.
    Representative Donalds, along with Representative Steube, 
Senators Marco Rubio and Senators Rick Scott and their staff 
have played a critical role in supporting our community through 
this and assisting us both before and after the storm. And we 
are grateful they are here with us for the long haul.
    Thank you. That concludes my time.
    Mr. Sessions. Sir, thank you very much. Most appreciative 
and in line with our respect for our Federal partners----
    Mr. Hamman. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. The work that was done by local 
people; and the prayers, which I would say I hope you know came 
from across this country, just as they are going to Hawaii 
today. And we believe that we are one Nation under God, and I 
know you have felt that very closely in the association that 
you have, the success of where you stand today.
    Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
    Mr. Hamman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Sessions. Mayor Anderson, welcome. We are delighted 
that you are here. Gentleman is recognized.

               STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE KEVIN ANDERSON

                                 MAYOR

                             FORT MYERS, FL

    Mr. Anderson. Thank you very much. I would also like to 
thank each and every one of you for being here today and taking 
the time to follow up on the response, a response that played--
it is playing a critical role in our recovery, albeit not 
perfect at times.
    But I would also like to echo Commissioner Hamman in 
recognizing Congressman Donalds. I mean, I think it was within 
12 hours of the storm landing, his feet were on the ground. He 
was in our community, meeting with us, and seeing what needed 
to be done.
    So, thank you, Congressman, to you and your staff.
    I am going to do my best not to repeat what the 
Commissioner said, because it is basically the same stuff. What 
I do want to say is that, you know, our area, Fort Myers, Lee 
County, southwest Florida, we are not just a dot on a map. We 
are like every other community in this country. We are 
comprised of people and businesses and schools and churches and 
all of that that goes together to make a community.
    I stood at the door of my balcony--I live in a condo in the 
heart of downtown, three blocks from the Caloosahatchee River. 
And, fortunately, we are about 15 miles upstream from the Gulf 
of Mexico, so we did not suffer like the Barrier Islands and 
the beaches did. But I stood there looking at our downtown.
    Now, as the Congressman mentioned, I was in law 
enforcement, did 24 years in Fort Myers. I know what downtown 
was like when I started as a police officer. It was blighted. 
We did not even like going down there after dark. That is how 
bad it was.
    Now it is a very vibrant, active part of our community. And 
I stood there, and I watched the waters come in from the river 
to the point where it covered a FedEx box. And I am thinking--I 
still had the television on. I am listening to the weather, and 
they are saying twice as much water is going to come in on the 
back side of this storm. And I stood there helpless thinking, 
what is this going to do to our downtown, the city, and the 
region for that fact? Fortunately, when the eye passed, the 
water receded, and so we only--most places that got it the 
worst had about 4 feet of water.
    The very next morning at sunrise, the people--the people of 
southwest Florida are strong and resilient. They were back in 
their businesses cleaning things out. In fact, the owner of the 
downtown House of Pizza came in at midnight, stayed there all 
night long. He was open on Thursday, had a line around the 
block, 4-hour wait for a pizza.
    But, the people in line waiting, they did not complain. 
They were all happy to be able to get a hot pizza. And that got 
the rest of the businesses downtown clearing their businesses 
out, which meant the debris piled up quickly. And we are 
talking food, construction, and demolition materials, garbage, 
and all of that, which pose a real safety and health issue. Not 
only that, but a psychological issue.
    Think about you coming by your business or you coming by 
your house, and there on the side of the road is your life, 
your memories, your keepsakes, antiques, all kinds of things 
just piled up there as trash. It has a real psychological 
effect. So, that was our first challenge, getting the OK to 
pick up the debris.
    The state of Florida told us, do not wait on the Federal 
Government; get going. And that made all the difference in the 
world. We spent several days cleaning up our downtown. And that 
really, I think, was a catalyst for a great recovery, because 
it motivated people, showing them, hey, it was a bad hit, we 
were knocked down. We were not knocked out. We were rising from 
the rubble. We were rebuilding already.
    And we are very thankful to the Federal Government and all 
the agencies that showed up. But I must sum it up in one little 
phrase. And I think--and this is not meaning to be 
disrespectful to the gentleman from FEMA, but process versus 
purpose. All of the Federal agencies have great processes, but 
it prevents them, at times, from fulfilling the purpose.
    And, while their process is designed to help those who have 
been displaced from their home, lost a loved one, lost their 
business, whatever it may be, it often prevents them from 
fulfilling that purpose. And who is stuck there is those who 
are suffering the most.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Sessions. Mr. Mayor, thank you very much.
    Mr. Goss, we are delighted that you are here. I want to 
thank you for taking time to come renew your ideas with me last 
night and with our staff. And we are delighted that you are 
here.
    And the distinguished gentleman is recognized.

                       STATEMENT OF CHAUNCEY GOSS

                                RESIDENT

                              SANIBEL, FL

    Mr. Goss. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
    I did talk to my father this morning, and he sends his 
regards. I would also like to thank Mr. Edwards for making the 
trip from North Carolina, Mr. Biggs for making the trip from 
the southwest. I know it is still hot here, but it is a 
different heat.
    And, Mr. Donalds, what you have done for this community is 
unbelievable. I know no one signs up to be a Congressman for a 
hurricane, but you have been a phenomenal Congressman for a 
hurricane. So, thank you for all you have done. And thank you 
all for being here and letting us speak.
    I am going to be speaking a little bit differently than--
than my colleagues here, because I am speaking not an elected 
official in any manner, but a consumer. I am a sample size of 
one, but I do talk to a lot of my neighbors, and I found out 
that the experience I have is not my experience alone.
    I have been here for about 50 years--my mom and dad moved 
down here in 1970--and grew up on Sanibel. And, you know, 
hurricanes are always in your mind. You always know they are 
there, and you--you evacuate, you do what you are supposed to 
do, but you never really think it is going to happen to you.
    So, on September 28, my family and I, we did what we were 
supposed to do. We evacuated, and we lost everything we had 
except for what we had in the car. Luckily, we evacuated, and 
everyone is fine. So, we have what is most important to us, 
which is our health. And, you know, some people did not make 
it. So, I--we were fortunate.
    But you do not ever think it is going to happen to you, and 
then, all of a sudden, you are homeless. And you go, OK, now 
what do I do? I do not have a house. I have what I had in the 
car. I did not really pack what I needed for not having a 
house, for my decisions tomorrow, for what I am going to be 
doing. So, you scramble around. You do the best you can.
    For us, we had--we were lucky. We had some relatives on the 
East Coast who had an apartment that we could use. So, we were 
driving back and forth there. It was an 8-hour roundtrip drive, 
which was not ideal, but it was OK. And then, you know, we 
could not even get to Sanibel for a while until the Governor 
figured out really quickly how to open the bridge up, which we 
are really grateful to Governor DeSantis for making that 
happen, because, prior to that happening, we had to take a 
boat.
    And so, it was very hard to get over to the island, which 
was stressful, because our--you know, our house, everything we 
owned is over there. And, meanwhile, you have got your 
insurance company sort of whispering in your ear, well, if you 
do not get over there and start mitigating, we cannot pay you 
anything. So, you are going, well, gee, I cannot even get 
there, but you find a friend with a boat, and you go over 
there, and you start mucking the house out and do the best you 
can, taking everything you can to the curb. And it is just 
really tough. It was tough.
    And so, the housing was an issue for us. And we lost a lot 
of hotels stock, which makes sense, because a lot of hotels are 
on the coast. And we had a lot of people come in. There was a 
lot of demand, because all of a sudden, you have people 
displaced, and then you have emergency workers coming in who 
are going to help you out. And you have got contractors coming 
in who are going to help you out.
    So, there was this weird disconnect on supply and demand on 
housing. So, we were--you know, I thought let us go to FEMA, 
and we will sign up and see what happens there from a housing 
disaster assistance standpoint. This is, you know, what they do 
for a living. Let us see how they do.
    So, we signed up. It was very easy to do. Getting signed up 
with FEMA is easy. That process was not a problem. I talked to 
them. They said, yes, you absolutely qualify for housing. We 
would love to put you in a hotel. Here, use this number. Go to 
this website, and, when you plug this number in, it will tell 
you, you know, where the hotels are available.
    So, we did that. And the first day I did that, the nearest 
hotel room was in Alabama. And Alabama is not a close drive to 
southwest Florida. And I am not faulting FEMA for that. It 
was--you know, I was asking for the same day or the next day. I 
said, OK, I will give them a break on that.
    So, I said, how about next week? Maybe I can find a hotel 
room, so I do not have to drive back and forth. And the nearest 
hotel room was in Brooksville, which Brooksville is--it is not 
that--it is not Alabama, but it is still not close. So clearly 
there was a hotel problem here in southwest Florida.
    So I thought, let us see if I can get into a trailer, 
because I know that FEMA has got a trailer program. So, I 
signed up for the trailer program, and I was told, yes, you 
qualify.
    I said, great, I qualify.
    And they said--this is the week before Thanksgiving, so I 
was really excited about that. And I said to my wife, hey, we 
are not going to have to make this trip anymore. We are going 
to have a trailer.
    And so, on December 8, someone came out to my house. They 
measured my driveway. They put a red line on it, and they said, 
here is where your trailer is going to go.
    And I said, hey, do you think I can be in, you know, by the 
holidays? This is December 8.
    And he said, yes, that is probably doable.
    So, I was pretty excited about that. Holidays came and 
went, and January came and went, and February came and went, 
and March came and went, and still no trailer.
    So, I got a call in late March, and they said, well, yes, 
we can put a trailer in now, but you are going to have to have 
it out by hurricane season, and we cannot put it in until 
April.
    So, I said, that's not that helpful, but thank you anyway. 
So, I said, take my name off the trailer list.
    During that process in that 4-month time when I talked to 
FEMA, I would go to the disaster assistance center, which they 
were really--it was really nice. They set it up on Sanibel at 
the church. And it had, you know, washer, dryer. It had 
bathrooms. It was--it was a good--a shower. So, it was a good 
facility for us living on the island to be able to use.
    And I went to the FEMA folks there, and I said, hey, what's 
going on with the trailer program? And they said, well, just 
call this 1-800 number.
    I was like, what? You are sitting here. Why don't you give 
me an answer. And I would never get an answer. And I asked if 
they would call the 1-800 number with me, and, the answer was 
no.
    So, I said, OK, fine.
    I called the 1-800 number many, many, many times, and I 
left many, many, many messages, and never got a response. So, 
it was not a good process. And it was just disappointing that 
FEMA, you know, could not figure out that--you know, this is 
one of their jobs to do quick, nimble, temporary housing. I was 
sort of surprised and disappointed that they could not figure 
that one out.
    And they offered also a little bit of false hope, and that 
is another thing. You know, we had all just been through this 
experience, and there is a little bit of PTSD, and everyone is 
just trying to get through the next day. So, you latch on to 
something. When someone says, yes, we are going to do this for 
you, you sort of latch onto it.
    And you say, great, I cannot wait for that.
    And then, when it does not happen, you go, oh, man, here we 
go again.
    So, I also had the opportunity to work with the Small 
Business Administration. They reached out, and they asked if I 
wanted a loan.
    And I said, yes, absolutely.
    And they were really good in the--I think we were alluding 
to earlier--Mr. Donalds was--I was approved for a loan very 
quickly. I think it was within a week. I submitted my paperwork 
within a week. It was then over the next 4 months that I 
provided pages and pages and pages of material to the Small 
Business Administration.
    Mr. Goss. And we went back and forth and back and forth, 
and at one point I had a really interesting dialog with them 
where I had been taking pictures of the documents they needed 
because that was--with my phone because that was the only way I 
could do it because I lost my office and everything I owned in 
my office. I had a laptop.
    And so, I had been taking pictures, and they said, well, 
you cannot take pictures of these documents because they need 
to be PDFs. And I said, OK, I have got a kid. That kid is going 
to have to figure out how to make that picture into a PDF, 
because kids are smart. So, he made my pictures into PDFs, and 
I sent that to them, and they said, No, it is still a picture. 
And I said, well, what is the difference between a scanner, a 
scanned PDF and a picture that is a PDF? And they said, we do 
not know, but the lawyers say we cannot use it.
    So, I went to the office on Sanibel, and I said, hey, this 
is the deal I am getting. I have been talking to the fourth 
different person up in D.C. or wherever. Can you help me out 
with this? Do you have a scanner here? And they said, yes, we 
have got a scanner sitting right over there, but, no, we cannot 
scan it for you. I said, why? They said, we do not know. We 
just cannot. That is not something we are allowed to do.
    So, I said, Is there any way you can help me with this 
loan? And they said, no. I said, but you work for SBA. And they 
said, yes. I said, well, why you are here?
    And I may have started to get a little bit heated, and at 
that point I said I probably just ought to leave now because I 
was so frustrated.
    I then was even more frustrated when I found out my loan 
amount, which initially had been approved at $205,000 was 
reduced to $40,000 because subsequently, I had been paid some 
insurance. So, I had gotten some of my flood insurance, and 
then SBA said, well, since you got flood insurance, you do not 
need our money. And I said, well, no, I do. I need both because 
I told you that. I need both because I need them combined. And 
they said, well, you're going to get $40,000. I said, never 
mind. I'll take the $25. So, 4 months later I get the $25,000.
    This was an incredibly, incredibly frustrating experience. 
I have talked to many people about SBA, and I do not know 
anyone who actually has a loan from SBA. It is just amazing how 
many people applied and said the process absolutely threw us 
off and we gave up. And that is commercial businesses on the 
island, and that is friends of mine who were trying to get them 
to rebuild their home.
    So, that process is clearly broken and needs someone to 
look into it.
    So, I think that my takeaway--and I know I have gone on too 
long here, Chairman. I am sorry. I think that--you know, I do 
not want to sound ungrateful at all, because I am not. I know 
these two agencies have done a tremendous amount of work, and I 
am really, really grateful they are here in our communities. 
They are still here in our communities. They are here with HUD, 
and I really appreciate that.
    But my takeaway is that the senior leadership at FEMA and 
SBA, they need to do more than just putting boots on the ground 
here. We need to--and this may sound pejorative, but you need 
to put brains on the ground. You have got to put some people 
who can make some decisions so that it is not just a ticket 
taker sitting in an office somewhere saying, you know, I am 
logging hours. And while I am logging those hours, I am also 
sucking up a hotel room, and I am also sucking up water and all 
the other things that people in our community need.
    So, if that person is not what I would call a Swiss Army 
knife, if they cannot do lots of things, do not have them here. 
Do what the Department of Defense does. Put some of your 
general officers on the battlefield. Let them make decisions so 
that you do not have these weird 4-month lags between a request 
and then an action, because that--you know, these are agencies 
that are supposed to be nimble, by their definition, with 
disaster in the title.
    So, that would sort of be my takeaway. So, I hope that you 
and I hope maybe even you get GAO involved with this to take a 
look at some of the metrics that were mentioned earlier. So, 
let us take a look at, you know, what is the timeline you think 
is right as a Congress, and then have GAO match that up and 
say, well, OK, is that about right? Is this what these agencies 
have been doing? And if not, why not? And see if they can get 
to an answer, because I think that this is really all about 
lessons learned.
    And so, I really thank you for being here, and that 
concludes my testimony.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
    I want to thank each of the panel for their professional 
presentation.
    The gentleman, Mr. Donalds, is recognized.
    Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Chairman. And Chairman, I do want 
to thank you for your indulgence with respect to the clock for 
all the witnesses. Like the Chairman, I am not a big fan of the 
5 minutes, and sometimes you need just a little bit more time 
to expound. So, I thank the Chairman for that.
    Also, Chairman, I do want to recognize the Mayor of Fort 
Myers Beach who is in the room with us today, Mr. Dan Allers. 
He is here. Dan, it is good to see you, and thank you for your 
job in Fort Myers Beach, really taking a major leadership role 
there in having to rebuild a town. So, I appreciate you there.
    Chairman, for the record, I want to introduce into the 
record an article by CNN dated February 15, 2023, titled ``FEMA 
Delays Leave Many Hurricane Ian Victims Exasperated Nearly 5 
Months After the Disastrous Storm.''
    Mr. Sessions. Without objection, that will be entered into 
the record.
    Mr. Donalds. Mr. Chairman, the reason why I want to enter 
that article into the record is because that article is 
indicative of the testimony of Mr. Goss where there are several 
accounts from local residents who went through the process with 
FEMA to try to get into the housing program, and were either 
met with the delays of, yes, we can outline your lot, and here 
is where the trailer will be. Or you are not in a specific--you 
are in a--this flood zone is not allowed under our rules, so we 
are going to have to put you into a hotel. And then the hotel 
allotments were 100 miles away, 200 miles away, 300 miles away, 
which really led to a level of just frustration by local 
residents.
    Mr. Goss, real quick, a question to you. Having gone 
through this process personally, I want you to expand a little 
bit on your thought process around putting essentially 
decision-makers on the ground who can effectively make these 
decisions. And I know you have experience with the Federal 
Government and working in tandem with it. What would your 
primary recommendation be around it? How would you 
conceptualize that so that you can have people make the 
decisions that need to happen right there when it needs to 
occur?
    Mr. Goss. Mr. Chairman, am I recognized?
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman is recognized----
    Mr. Goss. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. In this question period, yes, 
sir.
    Mr. Goss. Thank you, sir.
    Mr. Donalds, that is a great question, and I have thought 
about it a little bit. I think that there is two ways. One is 
you would put a decision-maker on the ground, whether that is 
an SES level or an assistant secretary level, somebody pretty 
high up. Take them out of the comfortable area of inside the 
Beltway and put them here so that when somebody like me comes 
and says, look, my neighbor has not--you know, he is living in 
his garage.
    You cannot tell me that living in that garage is safer than 
putting a trailer on his lot. There is just no way. The guy is 
94 years old. He has not had a shower in 4 months. That is not 
safe. So, somebody needs to be here to say you are absolutely 
right. We are going to put a trailer here tomorrow.
    Then there needs to be someone on the back end of that 
who--and I can think of this for SBA--who is looking at the 
metrics and saying, OK, I have had 5,000 people apply, and we 
have only issued four loans, or something to just keep things 
moving. Who is making sure that stuff is moving along? Because 
I do not get the feeling anyone is doing that.
    Mr. Donalds. I appreciate that. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Hamman, to you. You mentioned in your testimony 
frustration around the inspection process with FEMA. It is 
actually interesting that Mr. Aller is sitting over your 
shoulder, as I look at him. I know that the city of Fort Myers 
Beach is still operating in a trailer while they are waiting 
for a FEMA inspection to occur for them to actually go through 
the process of rehabbing the city of Fort Myers' actual 
building so they can continue their business.
    Can you speak to the delays and the concerns from the 
county level in conjunction with FEMA around the inspection 
process? And what is it specifically that Lee County is looking 
to see with respect to the inspection process?
    Mr. Hamman. Thank you very much for the question, 
Congressman.
    Yes, that is a perfect example of what we are seeing at the 
county level as well. Our team, our administrative team at the 
county does not have the confidence to fix or repair anything 
right now related to county facilities or county infrastructure 
because until it gets an inspection by FEMA, they are risking 
the reimbursement that could come from making those repairs.
    And this, with a $300 million bill coming due to Lee 
County, is more than our residents could bear on their own, and 
so we need that FEMA reimbursement.
    So many residents call us daily. Why haven't you torn down 
the restrooms at Fort Myers Beach, at Lynn Hall Park that look 
terrible? We are told we are not even allowed to touch them. If 
we touch them, if we try to clean them, we are risking 
reimbursement and would not be paid back for the repairs that 
we would need to make for that.
    Similar situations happen with Federal Highway Safety 
Administration in regards to our traffic lights. We have many 
traffic lights that are still mangled throughout the county, 
and those we were also told cannot touch them until they have 
been inspected.
    And so, residents do not understand why broken 
infrastructure and potentially dangerous situations continue to 
exist months after the storm.
    Mr. Donalds. Thank you so much.
    Chairman, I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.
    The gentleman, Mr. Biggs, is recognized.
    Mr. Biggs. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for being 
here today.
    So, my initial line of questions was going to be--as we 
have seen, this has gone on for 10 months, and you have all 
participated in interactions with FEMA and SBA and HUD, et 
cetera. My question was going to be--because I really want to--
and I guess I am going to ask it anyway, but I am anticipating 
what the answer--I should not anticipate what the answer is 
going to be. I will just ask the question.
    Have you seen improvement in processing, communication, et 
cetera? And your answer, Mr. Hamman, Mr. Goss, indicates maybe 
not. But I want to know if from day one when we are still in 
chaos and trying to bring order to this situation, has there 
been improvement in the process itself to, as the Mayor said, 
to achieve the purpose?
    So, I guess that is my question. Have lessons been learned? 
Has there been evolution along the way to make this better? Or 
are we still--you still experiencing the same problems today, 
maybe a different flavor than you were experiencing 8, 9 months 
ago?
    Mr. Hamman.
    Mr. Hamman. Thank you, Congressman.
    There have been situations that have been remedied thanks 
to reaching out to our Member of Congress and other members of 
the Florida delegation. For instance, I mentioned that letter 
questioning the values of our local property appraiser. With 
some help from our Florida delegation, that situation was then 
walked back after a couple weeks in a meeting to offer 
clarification to FEMA.
    There are also now more inspectors on the ground, thanks 
again to the pressure that was brought by the Florida 
delegation, but it took help from our member and our 
representative to make that happen.
    So, I can say that I, as a policymaker, am not in the day-
to-day workings in the emergency operations center with the 
FEMA partners. We are grateful that they are here and helping 
us out, but certainly it has taken a lot of extra help to get 
the process moving in the direction we needed it to.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
    And Mayor, any comment on that?
    Mr. Anderson. There was comment during the last panel about 
every hurricane is different, every disaster is different. You 
know, I can tell you every traffic stop I made, every crime 
scene I worked, every critical incident I handled was 
different, but yet the same. The basics were there. And I think 
that is what is being missed is they come in--and we are very 
thankful for the response, but yet the workers come in, and it 
is almost like they are starting over.
    Like the project manager that was assigned to the city. 
This was one of her first disasters, and it was a disaster of 
this magnitude that she is getting her feet wet, and she could 
not handle it. Then the person who replaced her was that person 
with the process; was not really focused on the purpose.
    So, I echo again the Commissioner. It was only through 
pressure and the help we received from elected officials 
putting the pressure on those agencies.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you.
    Mr. Goss.
    Mr. Goss. Yes, I think that, honestly, most of the people I 
deal with and talk to have probably given up by now and have 
gone to conventional lending or--and have gone to the rental 
market or figured something else out and just said, look, I am 
not going to deal with either FEMA for housing or SBA for 
loans. We are going to figure this out.
    Because initially, they are the only ones around, and you 
need them really badly because everyone else is sort of out of 
business. But then everyone else comes back into business. So, 
now there is a little bit of a rental market. Now, you know, 10 
months, 11 months later, there is conventional lending. So, I 
think that the need for it is not as bad. I think the initial 
need is when they really need to be there.
    Mr. Biggs. So, at the beginning.
    And I was fascinated by the stories. That was not an 
anecdote, the 94-year-old gentleman living in his garage next 
to you?
    Mr. Goss. That is not an anecdote.
    Mr. Biggs. OK.
    Mr. Goss. Not next to me, but on the island.
    Mr. Biggs. OK.
    So, were you proactively contacted at all by FEMA or other 
agencies, or did you initiate contact?
    Mr. Goss. They were pretty good about calling me on the 
phone, which was always--you know, and going through the whole 
trailer thing, you know, it was how many people are you? You 
know, what do you need? And I explained it to them. And then 
once they said you are approved, I never heard from them again. 
And that was the interesting thing. I mean, generally, they 
were pretty good.
    Same with the SBA. They would call and I talked to lots and 
lots of people about lots and lots of things, but nothing ever 
happened.
    Mr. Biggs. So, in the process, I guess maybe this is where 
I should have started, but did you find that you--like, you 
filled out the application. You think you are done. And then 
you were supplementing. Were you going through a process where 
it was--where it almost was evolving?
    Mr. Goss. Without a doubt. Yes, there was definitely an 
evolution of the process. With SBA, it was, you know, you 
reached one milestone and then there is another milestone and 
then there is another milestone, and it is with a different 
person who did not understand the last milestone.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Chairman, my time is up. I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
    The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Edwards, is 
recognized.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    One thing that is clear to me in being with all of you this 
afternoon is when I think of the folks that say we are all 
defined by how we react and how we step up under tough 
circumstances, that the panelists and Mr. Donalds have 
certainly stepped up, and I have a great deal of admiration for 
how you have defined yourself and helped this community. I just 
want to say that.
    Mr. Hamman, you mentioned in your opening comments that 
these agencies often blamed your own local land use code as 
obstacles to help bring relief. Can you give us some examples?
    Mr. Hamman. The codes were mainly related to our adoption 
of the flood maps and adoption of several policies that made 
our residents in Lee County eligible to receive discounts under 
the national flood insurance program. So, we felt like these 
are their regulations that they instructed us to adopt if we 
wanted our residents to be eligible for discounts under the 
flood insurance program, but yet, now they were holding them 
against us saying, no, those are why we cannot put the trailers 
there either.
    So, it was really a hard position for us to be in, and it 
did feel like at many times along the way--you know, we were 
facing the possibility of losing our discounts in the flood 
insurance program if we were to amend these codes in order to 
make things more eligible for trailer placement in flood zones.
    But, you know, at the bottom--at the end of the day, the 
bottom line was, you know, you have a person who is either 
sleeping in a tent, sleeping in their car, some even, according 
to news reports, sleeping under a bridge near Fort Myers Beach 
who needed a home and a place. And like we said earlier, they 
would be much safer in a trailer in their driveway than they 
would in their car.
    Mr. Edwards. And so, I cannot help but think, because we 
have heard similar examples of regulation getting in the way, 
for example, environmental impact and that sort of thing. Under 
such dire circumstances, would it be proper for Congress to say 
all land code use goes away, all environmental rules go away? 
The top priority should be to get folks into a sheltered 
situation. What would be the practicality?
    Mr. Hamman. I think, you know, that would be very 
appropriate, sir. When you are making policy decisions, you are 
always making tradeoffs, right, and I think if you look at the 
facts that were on the ground at the time in the immediate 
aftermath of a storm where you had folks who were waiting for 
months, sleeping in cars or sleeping in their driveways, I 
think those folks needed shelter more than they needed 
environmental regulation at that time.
    And so, I think if you say yes to shelter, you may have to 
say no to environmental regulation at that time, but that is a 
good tradeoff for the benefit of the people who needed it in 
that situation.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you for that. I was hoping that would be 
your response.
    You also mentioned in your opening comments that you 
thought that it would be helpful to not just hear the stories 
of the calvary coming, but being able to see proof that funds 
had been disbursed. What type of proof would have solved that, 
in your mind, through this catastrophe?
    Mr. Hamman. Sir, I gained that experience in my time 
serving as the President and CEO of the Chamber of Commerce 
here locally. Many of the chambers, there are multiple in our 
county, came together to survey our membership to ask them had 
they been approved for a loan and, if they had been approved, 
had they received funds. And none of us could find a business 
that had received any funds at that point, and this was months 
after landfall.
    And so, my question back to the Agency was, great, you have 
told me you approved this much money. Approval is one word. How 
about disbursed? That is a different word. How much money is in 
the hands of people? And they would not provide that metric to 
me.
    And I think as an organization that would strive for 
transparency, you would want to be able to both tout we have 
approved this much, and this much now is actually in people's 
hands. It is a simple number that I assume they probably have 
internally.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you.
    Mr. Anderson, in your opening comments, you mentioned that 
you felt that there was more of a quest for process over 
purpose. Can you give us some examples of processes that got in 
the way of the purpose?
    Mr. Anderson. Real simply, debris pickup. Not being able to 
pick up debris until we were told, go, ahead and pull the 
trigger, and meanwhile it is piling up. Like I mentioned 
earlier, it is the safety and health issues. In some cases, it 
is blocking roadways. So, I do not know why the process 
required us to wait.
    And then, I do not know if you are aware, but every trailer 
we had out there picking up debris had to have a monitor 
assigned to it to the tune of $1,500 a week. Follow the truck 
to make sure if they are picking up horticulture, that is what 
went in the truck. Then when they got to the dumpsite, they are 
paying another monitor in a tower to look down and say, OK, 
that is horticulture; it goes over there in that pile. And it 
just slows up the process. Although, this time the debris 
pickup went a lot quicker than in the past, but it is little 
things like that.
    And, you know, the inspections is another one. I do not 
understand why FEMA cannot tap into the expertise on the local 
level and pre-certify people from the city, from the county to 
be inspectors that the minute that there is an emergency 
declared, they take off their local government cap, they put on 
their FEMA cap, and they go to work for FEMA, and they can 
start that process. They know the local area. They know the 
codes. They know everything that needs to be known that 
somebody coming from out of town does not know.
    Mr. Edwards. That is a great suggestion.
    Mr. Chair, I see my time has expired, so I yield. Thank 
you.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
    I will move to the gentleman's second round, Mr. Donalds.
    Mr. Donalds. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is going to be a 
lighter round this time.
    Mr. Goss, I want to come to you. I know in your service 
capacity you have served as a Commissioner for the Southwest 
Florida Water Management District, appointed by Governor 
DeSantis. There was a previous line of questioning around the 
need to just, in a disaster scenario, being able to move around 
some of the environmental and other statutory codes and 
regulations that, you know, state, local, and Federal 
Governments have.
    In your capacity in that role--and this is--I do not know 
what the answer is. So, I am really interested to know your 
view on that because I think one of the things we have been 
able to digest through this hearing and then really going 
through post disaster is trying to find ways to blow through 
all the roadblocks to just get people the help that they need 
at that time period and then we can figure out that stuff on 
the back end.
    So, you know, from your capacity, having served in that 
role, what is your view of that?
    Mr. Goss. My personal view is that life safety comes first, 
always, and it has to, and if there is a rule there that is put 
in for nonemergency times, it may need to be waived for an 
emergency time.
    I do not see trailers and environment actually even coming 
into the same category honestly because I do not see how 
putting a trailer in your driveway is an environmental issue. I 
mean, to me that's not. You know, maybe--I do not know what 
kind of issue it is.
    Again, that is more of a safety issue for me, is making 
sure someone has got a place to live. I would not call that an 
environmental concern.
    Mr. Donalds. OK. I appreciate that.
    And actually, I appreciate my colleague from North Carolina 
broaching that topic. That is why sometimes I think, you know, 
smaller hearings where Members and witnesses kind of go back 
and forth reveal some good clarifying points that, you know, we 
have to go back and refine with staff and work through those 
issues, but I think it is something to explore.
    Mr. Hamman, real quick to you. Obviously, in your position 
with the County Commission here in Lee County, you are at the 
hub of all of this interchange. Can you describe that workflow 
between local, state, Federal, week one post storm, 6 months 
post storm, and now? And kind of describe what that has been 
like.
    Mr. Hamman. Thank you very much for the question, 
Congressman.
    Week one post storm was an amazing time. Everybody came to 
town and said, we are here and we are ready to help. And it was 
actually an effort just to try and coordinate everybody.
    But as I mentioned in my earlier testimony, FEMA did stage 
folks here internally in our emergency operation center pre 
landfall. That gold incident management team that was imbedded 
within days of landfall, that did work well, and our team 
complemented that, and the direct line to our Federal partners 
was a good one.
    The problem then, though, where things broke down was, I 
think as we talked about, was just when we asked about a 
situation, where to put the trailers, you know, the answer was 
not we have a shortage of trailers, so we cannot provide them. 
The answer was we need to check the rule book and, uh-oh, we 
have checked it, and we just cannot figure out where to put 
them because of the rules. And that rigidity and inflexibility 
was the problem.
    So, we did have a team that was activated in the emergency 
operation center for a good, it felt like, 60 days after the 
storm. I mean, people were--it was an all-hands-on-deck 
scenario.
    The state level was fantastic. I left that out, but Kevin 
Guthrie, the Florida Department of Emergency Management 
manager, or Director, was here in town imbedded with us, slept 
here, lived here, was guiding the state efforts. And the fact 
that we had that kind of direct access to an authority figure, 
literally the leader of the Department of Emergency Management, 
he could make those quick decisions on the ground based on the 
facts and circumstances that he saw.
    I think certainly, we would have benefited from a decision-
maker of that authority or caliber from the Federal side as 
well to help us, again, improvise, because in an emergency 
situation, it is not clean. It is a wrecked situation. So, the 
rules might not necessarily apply anymore because the structure 
that the rules were built for might not even be in existence 
anymore. So, you needed that local decision-making authority.
    Mr. Donalds. And I will say I do agree with you there with 
respect to Director Guthrie, you know, his work here was 
exemplary, and I want to state that for the record.
    Last thing, Chairman, and I will leave it at this. I think 
one of the things around SBA that--having had time to think 
through disaster recovery, the disaster recovery loan problem, 
which was very, very different from the PPP loan program under 
the COVID-19 emergency era, and although, you know, my time on 
SBA--my time on Small Business Committee, there are--there were 
issues with fraud in the PPP program. Definitely the EIDL 
program, which I would say the EIDL program is much more 
reminiscent of the SBA disaster recovery program where it is 
all administered by SBA.
    I think one of the reasons why PPP, from a disbursement 
perspective, was much more fluid for people trying to get aid 
is because you had the banking system actually going through 
their due diligence through the normal loan process, and those 
loans were essentially funded by the Federal Government. So, 
the banking system was a conduit to recovery dollars.
    And if there was something to look at with SBA's disaster 
loan recovery program in the future, it might be taking some of 
the lessons learned from PPP and augmenting that program for 
specific communities and specific parts of the country that go 
through disaster.
    With that, I yield.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
    The gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Biggs.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    My question is a request of you and Mr. Donalds. Mr. 
Donalds submitted documents in the record, both for panel one 
and two. I would like him to, if you can, make them available 
to all of us so we all get a copy of those, please.
    Mr. Donalds. Will do. Consider it done.
    Mr. Biggs. I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back the time.
    The gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Edwards, you are 
recognized, sir.
    Mr. Edwards. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Chair, I have a question of you. As I hear the 
responses from these gentlemen, it occurs to me that most of us 
here on this stage are probably coming up with some ideas of 
some things that we can do in Congress to help improve this 
process, which I know was Mr. Donalds' intent. And we all know 
or believe to get things done in Congress, we have to work 
across the aisle. It strikes me, we do not have anyone up here 
from across the aisle.
    I am just curious, was everyone invited? Or why do we not 
have anyone else up here with us?
    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir, and I will address that, and I 
think it is most important that my Members know this and each 
of you, as elected officials, and our audience. More than a 
month out, we gathered our ideas together about this, including 
the timing, and we chose not to do it later in case there 
really is another hurricane.
    But my colleagues, your colleagues on the Democratic side 
were advised. I spoke directly to Mr. Mfume about that a month 
out. And I would say this to you, that I believe that our 
strength of character between Mr. Mfume and his Ranking Member 
side, I will involve him in this. None of their Members had the 
ability or chose not to be here today.
    But I would hope that we would not, nor would anyone think, 
No. 1, they were not invited; No. 2, they were not given the 
time or the interest; but No. 3, or 4, I believe there is 
interest on their side to hear directly back about the 
testimony, about the needs of Congress to effectively work 
together.
    And so, I will provide feedback not only to this panel but 
also panel one to know that we intend to fully, I do, our panel 
does and this Administration, I would hope, to work with our 
Democratic colleagues who are equal Members as we are. They 
just happen to be in the Minority.
    But I would say to the people who are gathered here, I 
would like for you not to take that as a negative. They just 
were not able to do this, and Mr. Mfume has told me that he 
will be very pleased to invest the time and work together with 
us.
    I thank the gentleman for his question. I apologize for not 
offering that explanation upfront.
    Mr. Edwards. I would just add that I personally find it 
very impactful to be here in person to hear the stories from 
these folks that are affected, and I would have thought that 
our friends on the other side of the aisle would find it 
equally impactful.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.
    I want to thank the Members of Congress who have taken time 
to be here. We have another task. We intend to go out and do an 
onsite review. We have been invited to do that, and we are 
going to accept that.
    In terms of my offering feedback to each of you, I want to 
say this, that this could happen to any Member of Congress, but 
it happened here, and that the learning and the consideration 
about what FEMA has learned, SBA, HUD must come together a 
little bit better. And we will probably, within a short period 
of time, offer our questions and our recommendations. We will, 
about that same time, hope to receive back explanations from 
what I would call the Administration.
    But we are not going to let this go. And I looked at Mr. 
Donalds a few minutes ago and said I am not saying we are going 
to have a hearing, but I am coming back, and I am going to sit 
down, and we are going to make sure that we do our after-report 
because I believe my time that I spent in the free enterprise 
system always included not only a plan going in but the plan 
going out and then how you did.
    So, on behalf of the U.S. Congress, my colleagues, all my 
colleagues, I want to say thank you to each of you for being 
here. In particular, I want to say today that we have got at 
least four members of law enforcement, the men and women who 
wear the uniform, who have the responsibility, and I want to 
thank them for taking the time to be here today.
    And for our friends in the media, I would hope that the 
story that is told is one that we came here for, an intended 
reason. We have heard the stories, and we intend to 
forthrightly work with this government, this Administration, 
with our colleagues, and we intend to make things a little bit 
better.
    And for the people of this community, I want you to know 
that it could have happened anywhere. It happened to you. Our 
prayers are still with you, and we heard the story today and 
know what we need to do. So, I want to thank each of you that 
are in this room very much.
    This concludes our hearing of the Subcommittee.
    [Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]