[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                   THE CONSEQUENCES OF CRIMINAL ALIENS ON 
                             U.S. COMMUNITIES

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION INTEGRITY, 
                       SECURITY, AND ENFORCEMENT

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                        THURSDAY, JULY 13, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-34

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
         
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]         


               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
               
                               __________

                                
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
53-028                      WASHINGTON : 2023                    
          
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                      COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

DARRELL ISSA, California             JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking 
KEN BUCK, Colorado                       Member
MATT GAETZ, Florida                  ZOE LOFGREN, California
MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana              SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
TOM McCLINTOCK, California           HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin                   Georgia
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              ADAM SCHIFF, California
CHIP ROY, Texas                      ERIC SWALWELL, California
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina           TED LIEU, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          J. LUIS CORREA, California
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  LUCY McBATH, Georgia
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
KEVIN KILEY, California              CORI BUSH, Missouri
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             GLENN IVEY, Maryland
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               BECCA BALINT, Vermont
LAUREL LEE, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina

                                 ------                                

            SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION INTEGRITY, SECURITY,
                            AND ENFORCEMENT

                   TOM McCLINTOCK, California, Chair

KEN BUCK, Colorado                   PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington, 
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                      Ranking Member
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin               ZOE LOFGREN, California
CHIP ROY, Texas                      J. LUIS CORREA, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 ERIC SWALWELL, California
WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   Vacancy

               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
          AMY RUTKIN, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
                            
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                        Thursday, July 13, 2023

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Tom McClintock, Chair of the Subcommittee on 
  Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the State 
  of California..................................................     1
The Honorable Pramila Jayapal, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee 
  on Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the 
  State of Washington............................................     3
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on 
  the Judiciary from the State of New York.......................     5

                               WITNESSES

Bradley Schoenleben, Senior Deputy District Attorney, Orange 
  County District Attorney's Office
  Oral Testimony.................................................     7
  Prepared Testimony.............................................     9
John Fabbricatore, Former Field Office Director, U.S. Immigration 
  and Customs Enforcement
  Oral Testimony.................................................    14
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    16
Ramon Batista, Police Chief, Santa Monica, California
  Oral Testimony.................................................    21
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    23
Donald Rosenberg, President, Advocates for Victims of Illegal 
  Alien Crime
  Oral Testimony.................................................    27
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    29

          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

All materials submitted for the record by the Subcommittee on 
  Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement are listed 
  below..........................................................    62

Materials submitted by the Honorable Pramila Jayapal, Ranking 
  Member of the Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, 
  and Enforcement from the State of Washington, for the record
    A study entitled, ``Can Sanctuary Policies Reduce Domestic 
        Violence?'' May 2020, Working Paper, The Center for 
        Growth and Opportunity
    An article entitled, ``Do Sanctuary Policies Increase Crime? 
        Contrary Evidence from a County-Level Investigation in 
        the United States,'' May 19, 2020, Social Science 
        Research
    An article entitled, ``Immigrant Sanctuary Policies and 
        Crime-Reporting Behavior: A Multilevel Analysis of 
        Reports of Crime Victimization to Law Enforcement, 1980 
        to 2004,'' 2021, American Sociological Association
    An article entitled, ``The Local Effects of Federal Law 
        Enforcement Policies: Evidence from Sanctuary 
        Jurisdictions and Crime,'' 2022, Contemporary Economic 
        Policy
Materials submitted by the Honorable J. Luis Correa, Ranking 
  Member of the Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, 
  and Enforcement from the State of California, for the record
    A letter to the Honorable Alejandro Mayorkas, Secretary, U.S. 
        Department of Homeland Security, from the Honorables 
        Young Kim, the Honorable J. Luis Correa, and the 
        Honorable Mike Levin, June 15, 2023
    A letter to Juan Gabriel Valdes, Ambassador of Chile, Embassy 
        of Chile, from the Honorables Mike Levin and J. Luis 
        Correa, June 15, 2023
    A letter to the Honorable Alejandro Mayorkas, Secretary, U.S. 
        Department of Homeland Security and Secretary of State 
        Blinken, from the Honorable J. Luis Correa, June 6, 2023
    A letter to Todd Spitzer, District Attorney, Orage County, 
        California, from the Juan Gabriel Valdes, Ambassador of 
        Chile, Embassy of Chile, June 14, 2023
    A letter to the Honorable J. Luis Correa, from Assistant 
        Secretary for Legislative Affairs, U.S. Department of 
        Homeland Security, July 12, 2023
    A letter to the Honorable J. Luis Correa, from Juan Gabriel 
        Valdes, Ambassador of Chile, Embassy of Chile, June 16, 
        2023
A report from the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) 
  and the Enforcement and Removal Operations (ERO), July 6, 2023, 
  submitted by the Honorable Victoria Spartz, a Member of the 
  Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and 
  Enforcement from the State of Indiana, for the record
Materials submitted by the Honorable Pramila Jayapal, Ranking 
  Member of the Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, 
  and Enforcement from the State of Washington, for the record
    A statement from the Asian Pacific Institute on Gender-Based 
        Violence (API-GBV), July 13, 2023
    A statement from ASISTA Immigration Assistance, July 12, 2023
    A statement from Church World Service (CWS)
    A statement from Detention Watch Network (DWN)
    A statement from Esperanza United, July 12, 2023
    A statement from National Network to End Domestic Violence 
        (NNEDV), July 13, 2023
    A statement from Tahirih Justice Center, July 12, 2023
    A letter to the Honorable Tom McClintock, Chair of the 
        Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and 
        Enforcement from the State of California, from Sandra 
        Henriquez, CEO, ValorUS, July 12, 2023

 
        THE CONSEQUENCES OF CRIMINAL ALIENS ON U.S. COMMUNITIES

                              ----------                              


                        Thursday, July 13, 2023

                        House of Representatives

            Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security,

                            and Enforcement

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 3 p.m., in Room 
2141, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Tom McClintock [Chair 
of the Subcommittee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives McClintock, Jordan, Buck, 
Biggs, Tiffany, Roy, Spartz, Van Drew, Nehls, Moore, Hunt, 
Jayapal, Nadler, Correa, Escobar, Jackson Lee, and Ross.
    Mr. McClintock. The House Judiciary Subcommittee on 
Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement will come to 
order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess at any time.
    The Subcommittee meets today to examine the consequences of 
criminal aliens on U.S. communities. We'll begin with the 
opening statements of the Chair and Ranking Member.
    Yesterday, FBI Director Christopher Wray testified before 
the House Judiciary Committee that the open southern border 
poses a huge security risk for our Nation, his words, and that 
they attract a significant increase in crime, criminal cartel 
activity, and gang-related cartels because of this crisis. More 
than 5.5 million illegal aliens have been encountered at the 
Southwest border since Joe Biden became President. Over 2.1 
million illegal aliens at the border have been released into 
the United States in that same period of time. More than one 
and a half million known got-aways have evaded law enforcement 
and entered the country since January 2021. Among the one and a 
half million known got-aways, there is no way to estimate the 
number of terrorists and criminals entering the country.
    We do know this. By surrendering to Border Patrol, you're 
virtually assured now of being released into the country. The 
one and a half million who have evaded border patrol have done 
so for a reason. They're either conducting criminal activity or 
they're hiding criminal records.
    Adding to this threat is the fact that the administration 
has essentially adopted the sanctuary policies that prevent 
many dangerous illegal aliens from being deported after they 
have been convicted and incarcerated for committing other 
crimes while in the United States. According to Mr. Mayorkas' 
enforcement priorities, quote, ``whether a noncitizen poses a 
current threat to public safety is not to be determined 
according to bright lines or categories.'' So much for the rule 
of law.
    The result of such prioritization is that few criminal 
aliens are arrested and removed. The numbers speak for 
themselves. In Fiscal Year 2020, the last year of the Trump 
Administration, ICE removed 186,000 aliens from the United 
States. Two years into the Biden Administration, deportations 
have plunged to only 72,000, and that's a decline of more 60 
percent. The Trump Administration removed 104,000 convicted 
criminals from the country in Fiscal Year 2020, yet the Biden 
Administration only removed 38,000 in Fiscal Year 2022.
    Now, that requires repeating. The number of convicted 
criminal aliens removed from our country has declined by nearly 
two-thirds under this administration. Similarly in 2020, the 
Biden Administration removed just 60 percent of the number of 
known or suspected gang members as the Trump Administration had 
done just two years prior.
    Now, explain to me how this makes our communities safer. 
Does anyone seriously believe that making it harder to remove 
criminal illegal aliens from our communities makes our 
community safer? Does anyone really believe that letting 
millions of unvetted foreign nationals into our communities 
makes our communities safer?
    Many of these aliens arrived deeply indebted to cartels 
whose affiliated gangs follow them into our communities to 
enforce those debts, often by pressing them into drug 
trafficking and human trafficking. The cartel massacre of an 
entire family just hit Tulare, California, a rural community 
not far from my district. The cartels are here because we have 
let them in.
    As Director Wray testified yesterday; we have no idea how 
many terrorists have now entered the country as well. The 
crimes committed by criminal aliens aren't just statistics. 
Every crime devastates the victims of it, their families, their 
neighborhoods, and their communities as we will hear today.
    The sexual assault of a three-year-old at a Chicago 
McDonald's, the sexual assault and murder of a 92-year-old 
woman in Queens, New York, the murder of a college student in 
Iowa, the sexual assault and murder of a 20-year-old girl in 
Maryland, the assault of a teenage girl in Alabama, the assault 
and robbery of two friends at a Maryland park, the attempted 
abduction of a four-year-old girl in Virginia, the murder of a 
15-year-old boy in Maryland, and the list goes on and on in 
heartbreaking detail.
    These Democratic policies might create sanctuaries for 
criminal illegal aliens, but they are creating a dystopian 
nightmare for law-abiding citizens and noncitizens alike who 
must live in them.
    Now, we have a new phenomenon, crime tourism. In the past 
several years, criminal gangs, largely from Chile, have 
exploited the visa waiver program to shake once quiet 
communities across the United States with million-dollar 
heists, from Southern California to Florida, and burglaries of 
family homes from New York to Virginia. These criminal aliens 
continue their crime sprees across the country. In sanctuary 
jurisdictions, they largely escape accountability.
    Today, our witnesses will describe these real, live, 
everyday consequences of crimes that would not occur at all 
save for the fact that we are not enforcing our immigration 
laws. If we simply enforced those laws, there'd be fewer 
criminal aliens in the country and fewer crimes committed by 
them. It is that simple. I now recognize the Ranking Member for 
five minutes.
    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to start by just 
taking a moment to express my deepest condolences to Mr. 
Rosenberg. You have experienced a profound loss, and I am so 
sorry for that. I appreciate your coming to share Drew's story 
with us today.
    Mr. Chair, I'm glad to see that we're having an immigration 
hearing that's not solely focused on the border. Unfortunately, 
I worry that today's hearing will feature more of the same 
dangerous and harmful rhetoric that some of my colleagues use 
to demonize and scapegoat immigrants.
    For the last six months, and really since President Biden 
took office, my colleagues have fearmongered about the border 
and asylum-seekers seeking refuge. This reached a fever pitch 
in May, when the administration was set to end Title 42 public 
health policy. We were told that ending this policy, that's 
supposed to be about public health and not about immigration, 
would result in high numbers of migrants coming across the 
border and that the administration was not prepared to deal 
with the influx.
    There was no influx. Like it or not, President Biden's 
border plan appears to be working. Over the past two months, 
border numbers have fallen nearly 70 percent despite every 
projection to the contrary. Politico has called it the migrant 
crisis that still hasn't arrived.
    So, unable to further stoke fears about the border, my 
colleagues then turn to discussing the potential impeachment of 
Secretary Mayorkas during a hearing last month. I was very 
pleased to see that, following the hearing, some of our 
Republican colleagues on the Committee, including the Chair of 
this Subcommittee, expressed appropriate reservations about 
impeaching the Secretary. I hope that my colleagues will 
realize that we can disagree about immigration policy without 
resorting to impeachment.
    Unable to move farther down the path on impeachment in this 
Committee, this Committee handed off that investigation to the 
House Homeland Security Committee. Now, it appears that my 
Republican colleagues are pivoting to painting immigrants as 
criminals. As we discussed at our last hearing, Congress has 
never appropriated, and no administration has ever requested, 
sufficient resources to detain all noncitizens who fall under 
the, quote, ``mandatory detention categories.''
    Even former President Trump never tried to detain all 
migrants. In fact, DHS' own data shows over 500,000 releases at 
the U.S.-Mexico border under the Trump Administration.
    Likewise, no administration has ever requested or been 
provided the resources to remove all undocumented noncitizens. 
There are currently about 11 million undocumented individuals 
in the United States, and, given the Department of Homeland 
Security's finite resources, prosecutorial discretion is an 
essential tool in managing the immigration system.
    When President Biden took office, his administration moved 
to implement a targeted set of enforcement priorities. These 
priorities, while not perfect, attempt to focus finite 
resources on the removal of individuals deemed to be a threat 
to public safety, national security, or border security. 
Although this was initially blocked in the lower courts, in 
June, the Supreme Court held that States cannot challenge the 
Executive Branch's authority to establish enforcement 
priorities. The Court also ruled that courts do not have the 
authority to order law enforcement to carry out arrests and 
deportation.
    The Biden Administration has stated that it plans to 
reimplement these enforcement priorities. Prosecutorial 
discretion in enforcement has long been an essential element of 
the Executive Branch's authority. I am glad that the Biden 
Administration, the Department of Homeland Security, can move 
forward with immigration enforcement priorities.
    However, I do remain concerned about the administration's 
reliance on State and local law enforcement to carry out 
immigration enforcement. Local law enforcement needs to have 
the trust of all members of the Community, including 
immigrants, to do their jobs. That trust is eroded when local 
law enforcement is tasked with enforcing Federal immigration 
policy.
    The Major Cities Chiefs Association has previously noted 
that if law enforcement officers are viewed by members of the 
immigrant community as colluding or working with immigration 
law enforcement officers, this would, quote,

        Result in increased crime against immigrants in the broader 
        community, create a class of silent victims, and eliminate the 
        potential for assistance from immigrants in solving crimes or 
        preventing future terrorist acts.

The Major Cities Chiefs Association has also explained that 
cooperation with the immigrant community is a crucial part of 
solving crime and preventing further criminal activity within 
the entire community.
    Congress recognized this dynamic with strong bipartisan 
support when we created the U visa program to protect immigrant 
victims and witnesses of crime to encourage those immigrants to 
come forward, report crimes, and cooperate with law enforcement 
to solve crimes. It's worth noting that when local law 
enforcement is deputized to enforce Federal immigration law, it 
makes it far more difficult for victims of domestic violence 
and sexual assault to seek protection and it empowers their 
abusers. So, I am sure we will hear a lot about immigrants in 
crime today.
    Demonizing all immigrants and attempting to scare the 
public while using White nationalist rhetoric is straight out 
of Steven Miller and former President Trump's playbook. The 
reality is immigrants commit crimes at lower levels. This type 
of rhetoric only fuels a rising hate that we have seen against 
immigrant communities.
    I do want to note that one of the witnesses is here to 
discuss Chilean nationals potentially abusing the visa waiver 
program. If any immigrant is abusing the immigration system, I 
think we all agree this is something that DHS should be looking 
into. The visa waiver program is a privilege that we award to 
certain countries. It is not a right.
    I look forward to hearing from all our witnesses and the 
perspectives that they bring on this issue. Thank you, Mr. 
Chair. I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes the 
Ranking Member of the Judiciary Committee, Mr. Nadler, for an 
opening statement.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to start by 
offering my condolences to Mr. Rosenberg. No parent should ever 
have to go through the pain of losing a child. I thank you for 
sharing Drew's story with the Committee today.
    Mr. Chair, today's hearing is on a topic that requires 
delicacy and nuance, two things the current House majority has 
struggled with in the past. No one on this dais wants dangerous 
criminals out on the streets regardless of their immigration 
status, but we have to be careful not to paint all immigrants 
with a broad brush. Implying that all undocumented immigrants 
are criminals who wish to harm our country only lends credence 
to conspiracy theories that have already taken far too many 
lives.
    Next month, we will commemorate the anniversary of the El 
Paso shooting. On August 3, 2019, a domestic terrorist walked 
into a Walmart in El Paso, Texas, and murdered 23 people and 
injured 22 others. He posted a hateful and racist manifesto 
online prior to the attack espousing White nationalist 
theories, like the ``great replacement'' theory, and claiming 
that there was a Hispanic invasion. He told investigators that 
he was targeting Mexicans. Last week, the shooter was sentenced 
to 90 consecutive life sentences by a Federal judge. No time in 
prison will help those grieving families get their loved ones 
back, nor will it help heal the physical, mental, and emotional 
wounds of the survivors. It won't stop with the next attack.
    It is for this reason that we must tread carefully. This is 
an important topic, and I look forward to a spirited debate 
with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle. We cannot 
add fuel to a fire that has already left so much devastation in 
its wake.
    We all want to protect our country. We all want to keep 
people safe. We have different ways of achieving those goals. 
The administration takes on national security very seriously. 
That is why they put in place enforcement guidelines that, 
while not perfect, attempt to prioritize the removal of 
dangerous individuals.
    The previous administration chose to paint everyone with a 
broad brush. The Trump Administration created a set of 
priorities that were so expansive, it included all undocumented 
and otherwise removable immigrants in the country. A jaywalker 
and a murderer were given the same degree of prioritization for 
removal.
    ICE started targeting people wherever they could find them, 
near schools, hospitals, and even at houses of worship. 
Undocumented immigrants who have been complying with ICE for 
decades would arrive at the regular check-ins and be placed 
into immigration detention without warning. People became 
afraid of law enforcement and afraid of continuing to work with 
ICE for fear that they too would be detained and removed.
    When everyone is a target, no one feels safe. Targeting 
undocumented immigrants who posed no threat to the country had 
consequences. During President Trump's time in office, the 
number of individuals in immigration detention who had been 
convicted of serious felonies fell by 20 percent.
    During that same time, the numbers of detained immigrants 
grew. Soon immigrants with no criminal conviction at all became 
the majority of detainees in ICE custody. When President Biden 
took office, he directed DHS to prioritize targeting 
individuals who pose a threat to national security, public 
safety, and border security.
    President Trump chose to target everyone. As a result, his 
administration detained fewer people who committed serious 
crimes. President Biden's goal was to use our finite resources 
to prioritize detaining and removing those that pose the 
biggest threats to us.
    Unfortunately, Republican State Attorneys General who 
disagreed with this goal sued to block the implementation of 
these priorities. In 2022, the U.S. District Court for the 
Southern District of Texas enjoined the policy, forcing the 
administration to revert to the previous administration's 
priorities, or lack thereof. Last month, in an eight to one 
decision, the Supreme Court overturned the injunction ruling 
that it was the Executive Branch's prerogative to set 
enforcement priorities that the administration could once again 
move forward with them.
    Now that the administration is once again allowed to set 
its own priorities, we will be able to see which approach will 
be more effective. I thank the witnesses for coming today. I 
look forward to hearing their testimony, and I yield back the 
balance of my time.
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you. Without objection, all other 
opening statements will be included in the record. Let me now 
introduce today's witnesses.
    Our first witness is Bradley Schoenleben. Mr. Schoenleben 
is a Senior Deputy District Attorney with the Orange County, 
California District Attorney's Office. In 2017, the California 
District Attorney Investigators Association recognized him as 
California Prosecutor of the Year. More recently, Mr. 
Schoenleben has helped to prosecute cases related to theft and 
burglary by organized criminal alien gangs. He has a law degree 
from Chapman University's Dale E. Fowler School of Law.
    Our next witness will be Mr. John Fabbricatore. Mr. Fabbri-
catore is an Advisory Board Member with the National 
Immigration Center for Enforcement. He started with the 
Immigration and Naturalization Service in 1998 and retired from 
the U.S. Immigration Customs Enforcement in 2022. He served in 
many different positions including Deputy Field Office Director 
for U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement in the Denver, 
Colorado area of responsibility before being promoted to Field 
Office Director in 2020. He also received the Secretary of the 
Department of Homeland Security silver medal for meritorious 
service award.
    Our third witness is Chief Ramon Batista. Mr. Batista is 
Chief of Police for the city of Santa Monica, California, a 
position he's held since October 2021. He began his law 
enforcement career with the Tucson, Arizona Police Department 
in 1986. In 2017, Mr. Batista was appointed Police Chief in 
Mesa, Arizona. Mr. Batista has a bachelor's degree and master's 
degree from Grand Canyon University.
    Finally, we will hear from Mr. Donald Rosenberg. Mr. 
Rosenberg is the founder of Advocates for Victims of Illegal 
Alien Crime after an illegal alien driving without a license 
killed his son, Drew, in 2010. Mr. Rosenberg founded the 
organization to raise awareness of crimes committed by aliens 
who are in the United States illegally. Mr. Rosenberg is a 
former Entertainment and Publishing Executive who lives in 
Southern California.
    We welcome our witnesses and thank them for appearing 
today. We'll begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise 
and raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm under penalty 
of perjury the testimony you're about to give is true and 
correct to the best of your knowledge, information, and belief 
so help you God?
    Let the record reflect the witnesses have answered in the 
affirmative. Thank you. You may be seated. Please know that 
your written testimony will be entered in the record in its 
entirety. Accordingly, we'd ask that you summarize your 
testimony in five minutes. We'll begin with Mr. Schoenleben.

                STATEMENT OF BRADLEY SCHOENLEBEN

    Mr. Schoenleben. Thank you, Chair McClintock, Ranking 
Member Jayapal, Ranking Member Nadler, and distinguished 
Members of this Committee. I'm both humbled and honored to be 
in front of all of you today. Members, there is a loophole in 
the Department of Homeland Security's ESTA visa waiver program 
that has allowed hundreds of thousands of Chilean nationals, 
including violent criminals, into the United States without the 
required criminal background checks.
    In just 2022, over 350,000 Chilean nationals entered the 
United States utilizing the ESTA visa waiver program. Failure 
to provide the criminal background checks has created a direct 
pipeline between the United States and Chile for transnational 
organized crime rings to shuttle convicted criminals into the 
United States for the sole purpose of committing residential 
and commercial burglaries, follow-home robberies, and thefts. 
Americans across the country are being unknowingly surveilled 
and stalked in their own homes, the very place they should feel 
the safest.
    In fact, in Ventura County, California, a staggering 76 
percent of Chilean nationals arrested since 2019 entered the 
United States through the ESTA program. In a June 15, 2023, 
letter to Orange County District Attorney Todd Spitzer, Juan 
Gabriel Valdez, Ambassador of Chile to the United States, 
essentially admitted that this country was failing to provide 
the necessary criminal history for visa waiver applicants. 
Criminal history prohibits an applicant from being granted an 
ESTA visa waiver.
    Organized crime rings have seized this opportunity to 
train, recruit, and deploy highly organized and sophisticated 
teams of burglars across the United States to break into 
American's homes and businesses. Make no mistake, these 
criminals deploy sophisticated surveillance teams, high-tech 
tools such as Wi-Fi jammers, cell phone jammers, electronic 
trackers, and fake IDs to perfect their art of committing crime 
and eluding capture.
    Organized crime rings have--excuse me. Law enforcement 
agencies across the Nation have raised alarms about the Chilean 
nationals' abuse of ESTA, including Nassau County, New York; 
Flagler County, Florida; Shelby County, Alabama; Williamson 
County, Tennessee; and Los Angeles, Riverside, San Bernardino, 
and Ventura County in California. In fact, right now, the FBI 
is currently working with over 750 different law enforcement 
agencies across the country on this very issue.
    Orange County, California is simply a microcosm of the 
issue being experienced as a result of transnational organized 
criminals entering the United States through the ESTA visa 
waiver program. A target-rich environment, combined with 
California's soft-on-crime policies, and Federal failures to 
verify criminal histories for Chilean visa waiver applicants 
have created the perfect storm for crime. Without criminal 
histories, courts are incapable of determining the true risk 
posed by these offenders, resulting in release decisions and 
sentences, ignorant of the dangers actually posed.
    California sanctuary State status only compounds the 
threat. We know that transnational criminals, including 
Colombia nationals, are intentionally being arrested at the 
border to gain entry into the United States knowing they will 
be released quickly. On release, they commit crimes such as 
residential burglary and so on. They utilize military-style 
equipment, such as ghillie suits, to hid in the brush behind 
Americans' homes, trackers to track victims to and from work to 
utilize and maximize their window of opportunity.
    With easy access to the United States and no punishment, 
the reward far outweighs the risk. An Orange County victim of 
these crimes recently talked about the messages that her 
children gave her after being victimized by that crime. She 
told the court that her children told her the following: I'm 
afraid to play basketball in the backyard. I'm not going to go 
upstairs by myself because someone may be up there. I'm afraid 
of the dark. I'm so frightened that every light in the house 
has to be on all night long.
    Her triplets are 14 years old, and they are afraid of the 
dark because this family now knows the terror that happens when 
lights go out.
    In failing to hold Chile accountable for refusing to 
provide the required criminal background checks, the Department 
of Homeland Security has failed in its duty to protect the 
safety and security of our Nation and our citizens. The 
Secretary of Homeland Security has statutory authority to 
immediately terminate or suspend a country's designation in the 
ESTA visa waiver program without notice if there's a credible 
threat originating from that country which poses an imminent 
danger to the United States or its citizens.
    Members, on behalf of Orange County District Attorney Todd 
Spitzer and law enforcement across the country, I respectfully 
ask participation for Chile in the ESTA visa program be 
suspended until Chile meets with the program requirements. 
Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Schoenleben follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you very much. Next is Mr. Fabbri-
catore.

                 STATEMENT OF JOHN FABBRICATORE

    Mr. Fabbricatore. Chair McClintock, Ranking Member Jayapal, 
and distinguished Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for 
the opportunity to present testimony on the current State of 
immigration enforcement. After decades service at ICE, I feel 
compelled to testify today about the erosion of immigration 
enforcement and lack of respect for the rule of law.
    Every American should be concerned about what the Biden 
Administration is doing. Their current policies are putting our 
communities at risk and negatively affecting public safety and 
national security. Right out the gate, Secretary Mayorkas began 
to gut interior immigration enforcement with extremely narrow 
enforcement priorities for ICE.
    He justified it on the false premise that ICE couldn't 
effectively enforce the law due to a lack of resources. ICE 
statistics paint a grim picture of the effects of these 
priorities. If you compare ICE arrests from 2018-2020, civil 
arrests are down 69 percent.
    Convicted criminal arrests are down 65 percent. Everything 
from homicide to assaults to weapons offenses are down as high 
as 61 percent. There are fewer criminals being arrested, plain 
and simple.
    I would further note that there are hundreds of thousands 
of criminal aliens at large in the United States. The Biden 
Administration has stated that there are over 400,000 convicted 
criminals on the non-detain docket. Why aren't they a priority?
    Furthermore, recidivist rates have shown from prior Fiscal 
Year reports that most criminal aliens have additional criminal 
convictions. In 2020, the 93,000 criminal aliens arrested by 
ERO with criminal histories accounted for 374,000 criminal 
charges and convictions, about four per alien. Even with the 
paltry number of arrests made in 2022, the 46,000 aliens 
arrested with criminal histories accounted for nearly 200,000 
convictions and charges.
    If the Biden Administration conducted interior enforcement 
against criminal illegal aliens in the same manner as was 
always done in the prior Republican and Democrat 
Administrations I served in, there would have been another 
90,000 aliens arrested who would've accounted for approximately 
another 300,000 convictions and charges. As an ICE field office 
director, I witnessed the deterioration of relationships with 
local law enforcement agencies because of sanctuary policies. 
Nationwide, we see a growing separation between ICE and local 
law enforcement.
    The belief that partnership between ICE and other law 
enforcement entities breads distrust in immigrant communities 
is false. Prior to the rise of sanctuary policies, detainers 
were a useful tool. A detainer is placed on an alien who's been 
arrested by State or local law enforcement.
    Instead of releasing the alien back to the streets, the 
detainer requires law enforcement agencies to hold the alien so 
ICE may make an administrative arrest. Law enforcement used to 
honor detainers more widely until policies were implemented 
prohibiting the practice. In 2016, I was part of an operation 
designed to target alien heroin traffickers.
    When the mayor and city council members found out that ICE 
was working with Denver police on this operation, Denver police 
commanders were told to stop the operation and remove ICE from 
the building. Denver police shut down the operation after only 
two weeks when operationally 54 illegal aliens were arrested 
for heroin-related crimes. Regardless of the results, Denver 
refused to work with ICE, claiming that it disrupted their 
ability to work with the immigrant community.
    This argument is invalid as it allows citizens to die from 
heroin overdoses rather than having local law enforcement and 
ICE work together to save lives. In 2020, and illegal alien who 
previously had DACA was arrested for murder for giving fentanyl 
and cocaine to a 16-year-old girl at a party. While the girl 
lay dying of an overdose, the alien was too buys raping a 14-
year-old who was under the influence of drugs to call an 
ambulance.
    On arrest, ICE filed a detainer. Local law enforcement was 
prohibited from honoring it and a drug dealer and sexual 
predator with admitted gang ties was allowed to walk out of the 
jail as locals choose to ignore ICE's request. ICE can only 
remain an effective enforcer of immigration laws through 
collaboration with local law enforcement.
    Such cooperation is proven to prevent illegal aliens 
convicted of criminal activity from victimizing our 
communities. Instead, sanctuary policies are utilized by the 
gangs and other criminal aliens who rely on this sanctuary to 
commit crimes in every U.S. community. In the fight against 
opioids, fentanyl increased gang activity, this cooperation is 
critical.
    In 2015, I included Denver Sheriff's Department gang 
intelligence deputies on a national task force operating 
against transnational gangs. Due to great teamwork, we 
identified numerous cases and arrested over a dozen gang 
members with criminal backgrounds. The State sanctuary policy 
ended that collaboration between ICE and the Denver Sheriff's 
Department.
    Refusing to cooperate with ICE, sanctuary cities are 
sending a message that they don't value the lives of citizens 
or the safety of our communities. Robust immigration 
enforcement strategies must be developed to protect our country 
from the risk of criminal illegal aliens. The first step must 
be returning to the rule of law and through the enforcement of 
immigration laws mandated by the INA.
    Criminal aliens should be detained and expeditiously 
removed from the country. ICE should be directed to address the 
millions of final removal orders that have been issued by 
immigration judges yet ignored for years. Congress must help 
ICE by invalidating departmental policies that handcuff the 
agency and prioritize slim and ambiguous categories of cases. 
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Fabbricatore follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you for your testimony. Our next 
witness is Mr. Batista.

                   STATEMENT OF RAMON BATISTA

    Mr. Batista. Before I begin, Mr. Rosenberg, we just met. I 
just want to express my sincere thoughts and my heart goes out 
to you for the loss of your son deeply. Chair McClintock, 
Ranking Member Jayapal, and other distinguished Members of the 
Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify.
    My name is Ramon Batista, and I'm the Chief of Police for 
the city of Santa Monica, California. I was born in Los Angeles 
and raised in Tucson, Arizona where I spent the bulk of my 
policing career in the city about 60 miles from the U.S.-Mexico 
border. My approach to law enforcement is evidence-based and 
community oriented with the goal of improving public safety for 
all.
    As a member of the law enforcement immigration task force, 
I also benefit from the collected knowledge of a nonpartisan 
network of thought leaders who are attentive to unique 
challenges and opportunities that arise while serving immigrant 
communities. First, I want to affirm the generally positive 
effect of immigration on the United States. Most of the 
immigrants I have encountered firsthand are hard workers who 
are eager to build a better life here, provide for their 
families, and pursue the American dream.
    They fill critical labor shortages in key industries that 
Americans rely on. As our friends, fellow parishioners, 
neighbors, and loved ones, they often influence our lives for 
the better. That said, I also understand that immigrants are 
people, and all people are capable of doing bad things.
    However, I disagree with the premise that immigrants are 
more prone to criminality than native born Americans. My 
experience and the existing evidence overwhelmingly suggest 
that immigrants including undocumented immigrants pose no 
greater threat to public safety than anyone else. In fact, 
their presence may help reduce crime in certain areas.
    As a law enforcement officer, my job is to stop 
perpetrators of crime no matter their immigration status. 
Ultimately, I work in policing because of all the law abiding 
residents whom I feel lucky to call part of my community. 
Undocumented immigrants who live and work with dignity in Santa 
Monica are a part of my community.
    I take seriously my duty to keep them safe just as I do for 
any U.S. citizen. During my career that has spanned 37 years 
and two border states, one of the most critical lessons I have 
learned is the importance of trust. Trust is the life blood of 
community-oriented policing, and it is especially essential 
among marginalized groups who might otherwise be afraid to come 
forward.
    There is a myriad of reasons why immigrants in particular 
may hesitate to cooperate with police. Perhaps the greatest 
fear they face is that of going to law enforcement for help. 
They could inadvertently expose themselves or their loved ones 
to immigration consequences.
    When law enforcement is able to overcome these concerns 
through trust-building, it can save lives. Before I moved to 
Santa Monica, I served as a police chief in Arizona where I 
knew I needed to prioritize connecting with the local immigrant 
community, so they felt safe and comfortable. That concerted 
effort paid off when a father came to us worried.
    His teenage son who was experiencing mental illness had 
started making alarming comments and had bought an assault 
weapon, raising fears that he might soon resort to violence. 
The father was undocumented and felt nervous to come forward. 
His love for his son and his community prevailed.
    The outreach we had done throughout the city fostered a 
mutual understanding that we would not only treat him fairly, 
but also take care of his child. This, to me, is the purpose of 
the State and local law enforcement, to neutralize real threats 
to public safety in our communities and to empower civilians 
under our jurisdiction in their pursuit of justice. Meanwhile, 
the enforcement of immigration laws has always primarily been a 
Federal responsibility.
    Local police departments like mine should use our limited 
resources to catch people who are actively doing harm instead 
of helping to remove residents with no criminal background 
beyond minor immigration violations. On that note, it is not 
secret that our Federal immigration system is broken and that 
immigrants who hope to come to the U.S. for safety and 
opportunity often find few, if any, lines to legally do so. 
Immigrants who commit crimes of violence or otherwise impair 
public safety should face consequences.
    For the vast majority who are law abiding and want to 
contribute positively to our communities, we should expand 
opportunities to live and work legally in the U.S. Many of 
these individuals are people of faith who care deeply about 
their families and embody core American values. When we embrace 
them, they're not only willing but they're eager to stand for 
the guiding principles of our Nation.
    They stand firm in their belief of democracy, liberty, and 
freedom. For this reason, I am honored and humbled to sit here 
today so that I can testify to the urgency for Republicans and 
Democrats to work together and fix our immigration laws. As 
much pride as I take in the hard-won victories like the one in 
Arizona, I wrestle with the knowledge that other tragedies 
across the country could be prevented where people not afraid 
to come forward with vital information.
    Immigration reform that would provide security for law 
abiding U.S. residents would not only help them and their 
families, but it would also help me and other law enforcement 
professionals do our jobs. I welcome this dialog and hope to be 
a resource for your Subcommittee as you work toward fixing our 
immigration system. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Batista follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you for your testimony. Finally, 
we'll hear from Mr. Rosenberg.

                 STATEMENT OF DONALD ROSENBERG

    Mr. Rosenberg. Chair McClintock, Ranking Member Jayapal, 
Ranking Member Nadler, and Committee Members, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify before the House Judiciary Subcommittee 
on Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement. If only we 
had immigration integrity, security, and enforcement, I 
wouldn't be here today. My son and tens of thousands of others 
would be alive.
    I am the President of Advocates for Victims of Illegal 
Alien Crime. Let me be clear. We are not against immigration, 
asylum, or refugee programs. We are against criminality.
    My son, Drew, on his way home from law school was killed by 
a criminal illegal alien over 12 years ago. The illegal alien 
who ran him over drove back and forth over his body three times 
attempting to flee. On the third time, he stopped when a man 
stood in front of his car.
    His rear tire was resting on my son's abdomen. Five men had 
to lift the car off his lifeless body. Surely that is a 
consequence of illegal immigration.
    The AVIAC board members have all lost a loved one to 
illegal alien crime. Maureen Maloney's 23-year-old son was 
killed by a drunk driver in 2011. The illegal alien ran a stop 
sign, collided with Matthew, and dragged his body a quarter of 
a mile.
    The killer was released from prison two months ago. Brian 
McCann's brother, Denny, was a hit and run victim in 2011. The 
killer was caught, but Cook County, Illinois board crafted a 
sanctuary policy that allowed the killer to post bond. He was 
released and fled to Mexico. After 12 years, he was finally 
extradited and will stand trial.
    Maureen Laquerre's brother, Richard, was killed in 2009 
when a woman who overstayed her visa ran a red light and t-
boned his car. She was charged with vehicular homicide but 
never went to trial. Almost a year after Richard's death, she 
was allowed to return to Portugal without spending a day in 
jail.
    All these deaths were preventable. There are no annual 
statistics on criminal alien crime. There is a report compiled 
by the GAO using data from the State Criminal Alien Assistance 
Program, SCAAP, that studied the crimes committed by criminal 
aliens in Federal and State prisons between 2011 and 2016.
    Those inmates were responsible for over 33,000 murders, 
homicides, and manslaughters. How many other preventable deaths 
by criminal aliens before 2011 and after 2016? Ten thousand, 20 
thousand or more, we don't know.
    Even those numbers are small. They're small portion of all 
the crimes committed by illegal aliens as the report mentions 
three different times. These are minimum numbers as not all 
jurisdictions participate in SCAAP.
    The numbers are also understated because there are minimum 
requirements to be counted. During 2011-2016, those same 
inmates were responsible for over two million other crimes. 
What will these numbers look like going forward?
    So far, over two million more asylum seekers have been 
released into the country in just the first two years of the 
Biden Administration. These two million have received little to 
no vetting, only checking if they had been in the country and 
then prior deported. Less than 15 percent will be granted 
asylum.
    The rest will be ordered deported. Less than five percent 
will ever leave. What is now probably two million got-aways 
that have not been vetted at all are roaming the country freely 
and more likely to have criminal intent.
    None of them will be deported until they have committed 
some heinous crime, if even then. Furthermore, sanctuary policy 
thwarts ICE from deporting convicted criminal aliens. This past 
May, San Mateo County in California passed an ordinance that no 
county employees can cooperate with the Federal government, 
even if the crimes committed were child molestation, rape, or 
murder.
    These people are not a threat to public safety? I have 
watched these hearings for a decade as victims pour their heart 
out obviously to no avail. Some of you will tell me you are 
sorry for my loss.
    How many of you will be sincere? We don't need sympathy. 
Nothing you do will bring back our loved ones. I've had enough 
sympathy to last me for the rest of my life.
    What we need is some sanity. DHS' first priority must be 
removing all criminal aliens, not some but all. The same time, 
the border must be secured. Only those people we fully vet 
should be allowed in.
    For the past 12 years, I have worked daily to reduce and 
eliminate the consequences of criminal aliens on U.S. 
communities. I wish I felt our government was doing the same 
thing. I hope I don't get a call one day that your loved one is 
the latest victim. Thank you. I look forward to answering your 
questions and I'm available to meet with you at any time.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Rosenberg follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. McClintock. I want to thank all of you for your 
testimony, and we'll now proceed under the five-minute rule of 
questions. We'll begin with Mr. Biggs of Arizona.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Thanks, Mr. Chair. Thank you all for 
being here today. Mr. Schoenleben, it seems to me that the core 
American values is the rule of law. Would you agree with that?
    Mr. Schoenleben. Yes.
    Mr. Biggs. How about you, Mr. Fabbricatore?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, absolutely, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Batista, the rule of law, core, right?
    Mr. Batista. Yes, yes.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Rosenberg, you'd agree with that as well?
    Mr. Rosenberg. As we hear, no one is above the law.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Fabbricatore, am I saying that right, 
Fabbri-
catore?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Fabbricatore, yes, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. Fabbricatore. Here's my question for you and 
that is how many people who enter between the ports of entry 
without legal documents have violated U.S. law?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. They violate the law the minute that they 
enter the country by crossing around the ports of entry.
    Mr. Biggs. Everyone?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes.
    Mr. Biggs. Everyone?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Every single one.
    Mr. Biggs. Every one of those two million got-aways that 
Mr. Rosenberg told us about, is that consistent with the rule 
of law?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. No, sir. It is not.
    Mr. Biggs. So, here's another question. Mr. Rosenberg 
touched on it, and you touched on it a little bit. So, it's 
really critical here. People who are in this country illegally, 
who commit an additional crime against a citizen or someone who 
is here legally. If they were not in this country illegally, 
would they have been able to commit that crime?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. No, they would not have been.
    Mr. Biggs. So, a crime prevention strategy would be to 
enforce the law and secure the border, would it not?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir, it would be.
    Mr. Biggs. Do you know whether Secretary Mayorkas has told 
members of ICE and limited their authority on executing removal 
orders on the more than 1.4 million people who already have a 
removal order in this country?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, through his priorities, he has 
limited that.
    Mr. Biggs. Tell me how so.
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Well, the priorities State that we're not 
go to after just final orders that don't have recent criminal 
backgrounds or criminal backgrounds at all. So, you're just 
allowing that to keep growing and growing.
    Mr. Biggs. So, we passed H.R. 2 out of this body. It 
languishes in the Senate. Doesn't fix every problem with border 
security, but it makes a start.
    We have a Secretary of Homeland Security that has told ICE 
to stand down. We have a Secretary of Homeland Security who's 
engaged in a catch and release program. Do you know what he has 
said is his priorities?
    Any one of these. Do you know what he said one of his 
priorities is? He has said it's to make illegal immigration 
more humane, to expedite those who enter our country illegally. 
Does that sound like the rule of law to you, Mr. Rosenberg?
    Mr. Rosenberg. Not at all.
    Mr. Biggs. How about you, Mr. Batista? Does that sound like 
the rule of law?
    Mr. Batista. Not in following the letter of the law, no.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Schoenleben?
    Mr. Schoenleben. No, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. Mr. Fabbricatore?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Absolutely not, sir.
    Mr. Biggs. So, we're left when the Chief Law Enforcement 
Officer, the head of the DHS in this country says, stand down, 
don't enforce the law, I trouble accepting the notion that 
those who come into this country illegally, enter this country 
illegally regardless of motivation understand and accept our 
adherence to the rule of law. I'll tell you what. If you have 
people who don't understand the rule of law and its importance, 
you cannot have freedom because it facilitates what every one 
of you know.
    The really bad guys will be able to go free. They'll be 
undeterred, and they will go after and cause havoc and mayhem. 
I'm not saying everybody who comes in this country illegally is 
going to commit an additional crime.
    They are born under crime entering this country illegally. 
I want to mention really quick, Mary Anne Mendoza whose son 
Brandon Mendoza, police officer, killed by--and I know Mr. 
Batista knows the Phoenix area. On Valley Freeway illegally 
entered the country drunk, driving for literally miles and 
miles, runs into Mr. Mendoza.
    Brandon--or excuse me, Mr. Ronnebeck, Steve Ronnebeck's son 
Grant who was killed by an illegal alien who put a gun to his 
head because he didn't provide him change fast enough at the 
convenience store. No, they don't share our core values.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back. Ms. Jayapal?
    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to start by 
getting some of the facts out there. There is no data to 
suggest that localities with community trust policies have more 
criminal activities than others. In fact, hundreds of local law 
enforcement agencies throughout the United States have adopted 
community trust policies.
    Across the country, these local police departments, the 
ones that my Republican colleagues are so quick to claim that 
they support report that trust policies actually reduce crime. 
Recent comprehensive studies have supported those claims 
statistically showing that community trust jurisdictions are 
demonstrably safer than their counterparts. Mr. Chair, I ask 
unanimous consent to submit a sampling of those different 
studies for the record.
    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.
    Ms. Jayapal. We know that victims and witnesses are much 
more likely to report crime and cooperate with investigations 
and prosecutions when they believe that there is little or no 
risk of deportation if they reach out. Moreover, we know that 
abusers will use an individual's immigrant status to intimidate 
them into staying silent. Local law enforcement relies heavily 
on these victims and witnesses to prevent and punish criminal 
activity.
    So, Chief Batista, let me turn to you. I don't want my 
colleagues to take my word for it. Can you help us understand 
why jurisdictions with community trust policies in place 
experience less crime and why their residents feel safer?
    Mr. Batista. Yes, ma'am. Chair McClintock, Ranking Member 
Jayapal, what I've seen in my history is that time and again in 
our communities when we embrace immigrants and make them feel 
and be a part of our normal life that they behave in those same 
manners in that they cooperate with law enforcement and that 
they no longer are victims that live in the shadows. One of the 
greatest concerns I have in that situation is that a victim 
that does not come forward just makes a perfect victim. I don't 
think anyone in this room and certainly no one in law 
enforcement ever supports that occurring to anyone in our 
country.
    Ms. Jayapal. One of the studies that I submitted into the 
record found that jurisdictions that adopted sanctuary policies 
experienced a 52-62 percent reduction in the domestic homicide 
rate for Hispanic women. Chief Batista, does that statistic 
track with your experience as a law enforcement officer in 
jurisdictions that have those kinds of policies?
    Mr. Batista. Yes, it does.
    Ms. Jayapal. Domestic violence accounts for approximately 
15 percent of all violent crimes. It often goes unreported. How 
do community trust policies help domestic violence victims feel 
more comfortable coming forward?
    Mr. Batista. In the same way, ma'am, in that when we 
respond on a call for assistance from a victim of domestic 
violence, we want them to know that their status in the United 
States is not our primary concern. Our concern at that point is 
their safety and their welfare. That has been our guiding 
principle since I was in Arizona and certainly in California. I 
have seen that it works.
    Ms. Jayapal. I really appreciate that. Chief Batista, 
you've worked in law enforcement for nearly four decades, both 
in Arizona, most recently in California. Have you seen a 
difference in how welcoming those States are toward immigrants?
    Mr. Batista. Yes.
    Ms. Jayapal. Can you compare your engagement with 
communities of color in Santa Monica and in Mesa?
    Mr. Batista. I'll tell you that as a whole in Arizona, it 
was much more challenging in that the State's immigration laws 
made it difficult for local law enforcement to build a 
relationship in those circumstances. I'd attended many meetings 
with immigrant communities. It felt as though in those meetings 
folks were just trying to get by, trying to survive.
    The difference that I've experienced in Santa Monica and in 
Los Angeles is that their immigrant communities are forthright 
and willing to come out and engage and be a part of the social 
fabric of neighborhoods. Their kids and the encouragement that 
they receive is not just to be able to get through high school, 
but to be thinking about what college, what university they're 
going to go to and what profession are they going to pursue. It 
just feels as though folks are more welcoming and understanding 
and wanting to achieve the American dream just like everyone 
else.
    Ms. Jayapal. Just like everyone else. Can you discuss how 
passing immigration reform which brings undocumented 
individuals out of the shadows and regularizes their 
immigration status would actually improve the job you're trying 
to do around local policing and national security?
    Mr. Batista. Community policing is--foundational precept is 
trust I mentioned earlier. So, having them come out of the 
shadows, like I said, normalizes their behaviors in our 
neighborhoods and our cities. It makes it so that this 
communication, that ability to understand what's going on at 
the neighborhood level is improved. I can't say enough about 
how it will improve our ability to mitigate threats at even the 
national level.
    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Chief Batista, for getting those 
facts out there. I think it's clear our words matter. It's 
important that we discuss these issues carefully. I yield back, 
Mr. Chair.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Tiffany?
    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Yes, words do matter. 
Mr. Orwell would be highly interested in the discussion that's 
being had here. Community trust equals a sanctuary city.
    They've renamed sanctuary cities now right here in the 
Judiciary Committee of the House of Representatives. Saying 
that there's less crime in a community that is a sanctuary city 
which a sanctuary city almost certainly has a Soros prosecutor. 
You're going to tell us that there is not as much crime?
    Those prosecutors in the big cities are not prosecuting 
crime in many instances. We saw it firsthand up in New York 
City. Mr. Rosenberg, is crime up in California over the last 
couple decades?
    Mr. Rosenberg. Yes, tremendously up.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Batista?
    Mr. Batista. Chair McClintock, Mr. Tiffany, I didn't catch 
the question.
    Mr. Tiffany. Is crime up in California over the last couple 
decades?
    Mr. Batista. I can't tell you off the top of my head. I can 
tell you that in our jurisdiction locally, we're about seven 
percent higher than we were last year.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. F?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir. It's up in Colorado.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Schoenleben?
    Mr. Schoenleben. It's up in Orange County, California for 
sure.
    Mr. Tiffany. Significantly?
    Mr. Schoenleben. Yes. In fact--yes, sir. I can actually 
tell you just as a quick example for residential burglaries, in 
2022, our office filed 542 residential burglaries for the 
entire year. This year to date, we're already at 414. We're 
projected 828 for 2023. So, yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. In California, is crime down in the sanctuary 
cities?
    Mr. Schoenleben. I'm sorry?
    Mr. Tiffany. Is crime down in the sanctuary cities in 
California?
    Mr. Schoenleben. Not to my knowledge. No, sir.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. F, is the Biden Administration following 
the law? Is the Biden Administration following Federal law?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. They're not following the Immigration 
Nationality Act, no.
    Mr. Tiffany. Have you read or become familiar with the 
secure the border bill that we just passed?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. I've read some of it, sir.
    Mr. Tiffany. Is it an improvement on what we have now?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. It would be an improvement. It would be 
actually enforcing the law.
    Mr. Tiffany. Would you recommend to all Congressional 
Representatives before you today to vote for that secure the 
border bill?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Tiffany. We hear about fentanyl bills that are kind of 
chipping away at the edges, Mr. F. I keep saying (1) we can do 
to reduce fentanyl and by far and (2) is way down the line, is 
to secure the border. Is that accurate?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes. It's very accurate. Securing the 
border would actually help keep the fentanyl out. That's the 
cartels that are moving the fentanyl.
    Mr. Tiffany. In fact, it's rather interesting. When we made 
the trip down to just a couple years ago that my colleague, Mr. 
Biggs, took us down to the county, Cochise County. The sheriff 
said things were getting under control down there as the wall 
was being built.
    They were able to put crime control measures in place. They 
were telling a very positive story. We just had them before us 
a couple months ago and he said things are out of control and 
that fentanyl, there's a reason why it's gone up by 80 percent 
or whatever the number is. That's coming into America. It's 
primarily because the border is open. Do you believe that to be 
true?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. I do believe it to be true. As the border 
gets open and more people are just rushing in, the border 
patrol is being kept from actually being on the line, on the 
border. So, it's harder for them to stop any fentanyl that may 
be coming in.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Schoenleben, when I was down in Panama 
about two years ago, I heard that many Haitians that were 
coming through had actually resettled in places like Brazil and 
Chile. Have you seen any Haitians that came via the ESTA visa 
program that you referred to in Chile?
    Mr. Schoenleben. So, we don't breakdown the actual national 
birthplace of each defendant. What we've been looking at is 
trying to figure out who our criminals are and where they are 
coming from and how they're getting in. When we've done that, 
we found that wherever their birthplace, whether it be from 
Argentina, Puerto Rico, and so on, they'd been utilizing the 
Chilean ESTA program to get into the country and then commit 
crime.
    Mr. Tiffany. Have you or anyone in your office asked 
Secretary Mayorkas to change this program to protect Americans?
    Mr. Schoenleben. We have not spoken directly with Secretary 
Mayorkas. We've worked with Department of Homeland Security. 
We've worked with the FBI.
    In every briefing that we've done, we've been a part of no 
less than half a dozen briefings between those two agencies. 
The Homeland Security has been aware of this issue for at least 
four years, same with the FBI. So, then we've started reaching 
out. We were told it would take an act of Congress to fix this. 
So here we are.
    Mr. Tiffany. So, they haven't done anything?
    Mr. Schoenleben. Not to my knowledge. I do know that 
there's been a meeting. There's a meeting planned. The concern 
from our office is there's routine questions--or routine 
promises that things will happen. Our concern is we'd like them 
to actually happen.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired. Mr. 
Nadler?
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Chief Batista, as I 
mentioned in my opening statement, next month is the 
anniversary of the El Paso shooting. In that tragic incident, a 
domestic terrorist murdered 23 people. He posted a racist 
manifesto espousing White nationalist theories and claiming 
that there was a Hispanic invasion, even telling investigators 
later that he was targeting Mexicans. Can you discuss the 
impact that this type of rhetoric has on minority communities?
    Mr. Batista. Chair McClintock, Ranking Member Nadler, yes, 
it has a devastating effect on migrant and minority communities 
in that it forces them to go underground and communicate and 
cooperate. Much less it forces them into the shadows. It 
doesn't help the work of public safety if segments--large 
segments of our community are cast away in that manner.
    Mr. Nadler. How does it impact you as a Hispanic man 
yourself?
    Mr. Batista. As a Police Chief of nearly 40 years, and 
certainly when I am wearing the uniform or this, there is a 
level of respect that I see, I feel. Certainly, when I take all 
this off I experience the same challenges that other ethnic 
minorities in this country experience. It informs me, it 
informs my leadership, and my views on how things have to 
improve.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. The Major Cities Chiefs Association, 
a professional organization of police executives representing 
the largest cities in the United States and Canada, has 
previously stated that if law enforcement officers are viewed 
by members of the immigrant community as colluding with or 
working with immigration law enforcement officers, this would,

        Result in increased crime against immigrants in the broader 
        community, create a class of silent victims, and eliminate the 
        potential for assistance from immigrants in solving crimes or 
        preventing future terroristic acts.

Do you agree with this statement?
    Mr. Batista. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Nadler. Do you think if minority communities and 
specifically immigrant communities feel unsafe that it makes 
everyone in that jurisdiction less safe?
    Mr. Batista. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Nadler. If so, can you explain why?
    Mr. Batista. The level of cooperation that we need to be 
successful encompasses the same things that we expect and the 
way that we do and the way that we are successful in 
communities across the country. If we have ethnic minority 
communities, immigrant communities, where we can't penetrate, 
where we can't get information, that affects our national 
security through and through.
    It is not just people coming from across the border. It is 
in any immigrant community in this country where we need to 
understand and better understand what it is that is occurring. 
Without that information, we are at a deficit and it makes our 
country less safe.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. In your opening statement, you told 
a compelling story about how an undocumented individual was 
willing to come forward and express concerns about his own son 
to law enforcement because of the outreach you did and the 
trust you built. Is that kind of story indicative of the 
positive results we have seen from implementing community trust 
policies?
    Mr. Batista. Chair Nadler--Ranking Member Nadler, that is 
but one of the many examples and wins that I remember from my 
time in Arizona. I spent the bulk of my time as an officer in 
the Tucson Police Department, and there we worked very hard to 
work on the relationship with our immigrant communities.
    That story that I told stays with me simply because of the 
significance of how difficult it must have been for that man to 
come forward. Yes, at the end those stories ring true for me.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back.
    Mr. Roy.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the Chair. I thank all the witnesses for 
being here.
    Mr. Rosenberg, you explained the tragic loss of your son. 
If I remember correctly, there were obstacles to the removal of 
the criminal alien who unfortunately killed your son, and was 
not the current secretary at that point--Secretary Mayorkas at 
that point in the Obama Administration--and can you 
characterize his help or lack of help in ensuring that both 
prosecution and/or deportation of the individual in question?
    Mr. Rosenberg. Well, I didn't know of his involvement at 
the time. After the trial and Roberto Galo was sentenced to six 
months in jail, I met with my Congressman, Henry Waxman at the 
time, and said I want to make sure this guy is detained and 
deported.
    He had somebody write a letter to USCIS, of which Mayorkas 
was the head of at the time, and he got back a letter that said 
that Galo would not be detained or deported because--and this 
is an exact quote, ``he has only committed one crime of moral 
turpitude.''
    As I learned later on, and as we see today, that is 
Mayorkas' policy. Killing somebody doesn't necessarily reach 
the level to be deported.
    Mr. Roy. So, the current Secretary of Homeland Security 
felt that it was not something that merited deportation, 
because he had ``only had one crime of moral turpitude.''
    Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
    Mr. Roy. One crime.
    Mr. Rosenberg. Yes.
    Mr. Roy. Does that ``one crime'' mean a lot to your family, 
sir?
    Mr. Rosenberg. Means everything to my family.
    Mr. Roy. Do you think such a statement and a position is 
befitting of someone who swears an oath to uphold the laws of 
the United States, whether it was in a position in USCIS under 
President Obama or now as secretary of a department charged 
with securing the homeland of the United States?
    Mr. Rosenberg. Well, our group and I was against his even 
being appointed. I did get to meet him in 2014. At the time, I 
still didn't know that he was part of what happened in my son's 
case, and he lied to me constantly.
    I mean, the one thing you learn when you are in publishing 
is ask somebody questions that you know the answer to. If they 
lie, you will know they are lying.
    Mr. Roy. So, I am interested in that perspective, because 
the Secretary of Homeland Security lied to me in this very room 
when he said under oath that, ``We have operational control of 
the border.'' He then went on to testify in the U.S. Senate 
that, well, we can't have operational control of the border 
under that definition in the Secure Fence Act. At the same 
time, Raul Ortiz testified that, in fact, we do not have 
operational control of the border.
    Do you think it is a problem for the Secretary of Homeland 
Security to come into this room, into the House of 
Representatives Judiciary Committee, and lie about maintaining 
operational control of the border?
    Mr. Rosenberg. Not only do I think it is a problem, but I 
certainly think that he should no longer be in office.
    Mr. Roy. I think countless Americans share that view, and I 
appreciate it, and I appreciate your testimony.
    Mr. Fabbricatore, we first got to know each other when I 
was in Denver, Colorado, around the time that the ICE facility 
was being, unfortunately, ransacked and a flag being turned 
upside--the American flag being turned upside down. I 
appreciate your service in ICE.
    Do these numbers sound correct to you, that between Fiscal 
Year 2018 and Fiscal Year 2022 that for ICE there has been a 69 
percent decline in overall civil ICE arrests, 65 percent 
decline in convicted criminals, 26 percent homicide-related, 53 
percent reduction in weapons offenses, 33 percent reduction in 
sexual offenses, sexual assault, 58 percent reduction in 
assault, 50 percent robbery, 40 percent kidnapping, and 61 
percent family offense? Is ICE able to do its job under the 
Biden Administration's--
    Mr. Fabbricatore. No, they are not able to do their job, 
and the statistics bear that out.
    Mr. Roy. Can you explain to the United States--people of 
the United States why?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. It is the priorities that this 
administration has put forth. It is limiting what ICE officers 
can do. It is limiting the Border Patrol agents. Right now, we 
have so many people entering that they are just showing up at 
the ICE offices, and ICE officers are just basically 
processing. They are not out on the street making arrests. So, 
these arrest numbers are going to be down. Under these 
priorities, it is only going to get worse.
    Mr. Roy. The consequence is dead Americans, the consequence 
is dead migrants, the consequence is tons of fentanyl pouring 
into the United States, and it is a direct consequence of the 
policies chosen to be enacted by the President of the United 
States and his Secretary of Homeland Security. Do you agree, 
sir?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. I agree, sir.
    Mr. Roy. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back.
    Mr. Correa.
    Mr. Correa. Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, I want to welcome 
the witnesses. Mr. Rosenberg, please accept my condolences for 
your loss. I am also a father, and no father should ever have 
to attend their child's funeral. Every day I pray that my 
children come home safely. Every day, please. I pray for you 
and your family.
    When it comes to crime, victims of crimes, criminals, in my 
opinion, with or without documents, there is no room for you in 
our society. Period.
    I wanted to, if I can, turn to the issue of trust that we 
have kind of touched on or not. Mr. Schoenleben, you are from 
Orange County. Mr. Spitzer, your boss, Sheriff Barnes, his 
predecessor, we often worked in our communities to earn the 
trust of our communities. We have a high percentage of workers 
who are undocumented that are actually employed in the Disney 
area, the hotel industry.
    Trust is very important when it comes to crime fighting. I 
will give you an example. A few years ago, I came home from 
work, helicopters, police cars everywhere. Drive up to my 
driveway, my wife says, what is going on in the neighborhood? 
So, I said, Honey, let me make some phone calls.
    Local police chief tells me a rapist has been caught in the 
act. I tell my wife, it is OK, I think they are about to catch 
him. She freaked out, locked the doors, locked the window, 
there is a rapist in our community. She was right.
    Later, we found out what had happened. A young man got 
caught raping a woman in the local laundry room of the 
apartments right across the street from my house. Found out 
later on that he had raped no less than 20 undocumented women, 
minimum of 20, because we don't know how many others never 
reported the crime. This guy is gone forever.
    If these women had not stepped up and reported the crime, 
he would have never been arrested. If he had not been caught in 
the act, he would have kept going. This is why trust in our 
communities is so important when it comes to reporting crimes. 
All of us are part of the same community.
    I want to talk--I am glad you are here to talk about the 
Chilean issue. As you know, your boss called me late last year 
to address this very specific issue. I have been working with 
your office, the Chilean Embassy, with the Department of 
Homeland Security, as well as the State Department, to figure 
out what is going on with this visa program. By the way, I 
believe Chile is the only country in Latin America that has 
this program in place. No other country.
    Now, if I can, Mr. Chair, without objection, I would like 
to submit for the record some of the correspondence, some of 
the letters we have been writing back and forth, and I believe 
some as well to Mr. Spitzer. One dated June 15th, from Congress 
Members Kim, Levin, and Correa to Mr. Mayorkas on this specific 
issue. June 15th from Levin and Correa on Child again to the 
Ambassador of Chile. One dated June 6th from Correa to DHS and 
the State Department on this issue. From the Ambassador of 
Chile to Mr. Todd Spitzer dated June 14th. The embassy of Chile 
to yours truly dated June 16th.
    So, these I think--
    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.
    Mr. Correa. If you could please submit those. These are 
some of the issues that we have been dealing with, and I thank 
you for being here. I thank Mr. Spitzer for bringing this up, 
because the first step in solving a case is to know that the 
crime is actually happening.
    The issues here--and I only have 44 seconds--is, as you 
have kind of alluded, are the data bases, the criminal data 
bases that are not quite connected over there, and we are in 
the middle of working with that.
    The bottom line, all the gobbledygook put aside, is this 
thing either gets fixed or that visa program is revoked, as it 
should be, because any criminal, whether it is in Orange 
County, in Mr. Spitzer's backyard, or in my backyard, is a 
crime that is unacceptable. By the way, it is not just 
Chileans. There is a number of European gangs that are also 
involved in these kinds of programs that we need to shut down 
immediately.
    So, I want to say thank you for being here. Thank you for 
your testimony. We want to make sure we continue to work with 
your office and others to make sure our communities, our 
citizens are safe.
    Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I yield.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back.
    Mr. Van Drew.
    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Rosenberg, I am not going to offer you condolences, 
because you need a lot more than that. You have heard thousands 
and thousands of people are saying how sad and how sorry they 
are. The only time you are going to feel good in your heart is 
when we have the right laws, and we have a safe country.
    So, I will say this to you. I promise--and there is many 
people on this Committee--that we will work our hardest and do 
our best to achieve that goal.
    Mr. Rosenberg. Thank you. That is all I can ask for.
    Mr. Van Drew. Mr. Batista, I have prepared remarks, and 
hopefully I will get to some of them. I don't know. You really 
fascinate me, for real. You have been in law enforcement most 
of your adult life, correct?
    Mr. Batista. Chair McClintock, Mr. Van Drew, yes, sir.
    Mr. Van Drew. OK. You expressed today basically that 
communities are safer and better with undocumented, with 
illegal residents coming in, and that literally it can be very 
good for the community, correct?
    Mr. Batista. Yes, sir. When undocumented folks come out of 
the shadows and they are normalized as normal neighborhoods 
across the country, we are safer.
    Mr. Van Drew. So, the communities are better for that.
    Mr. Batista. Our communities are better for that, yes.
    Mr. Van Drew. OK. So, there are actually almost many--a 
significant number of the countries in our world have many 
people who are suffering under dictatorships, under poverty, 
under all kinds of issues around the world.
    If it is so good for us--and I am--it is a sincere 
question--why don't we just open the country up completely? Why 
don't we open up the Northern border more? Why don't we bring 
people from the Eastern Bloc? Why don't we bring--illegally, we 
don't even call it illegal anymore.
    Why don't we just say--and if you think this is good, tell 
me. Why don't we just say our country is open to anybody who 
shows up and wants to come in, not legally, but there is no 
more legal process, because, by the way, people who immigrate 
legally, the right way, I feel so bad for them because the 
system doesn't work well enough. Good people who have worked 
hard and they are waiting year after year to get into the 
United States of America and do it the right way, and they 
refuse to do it the wrong way.
    Mr. Batista, are they kind of foolish to do that, to wait 
those years and go through the process?
    Mr. Batista. Mr. Van Drew, my role and my life's work has 
been about protecting those folks that can't protect 
themselves. I take great pride in the work that our profession 
does--
    Mr. Van Drew. Respectfully, Mr. Batista, I would like you 
to answer my question.
    Mr. Batista. So, I would say that the role of determining--
    Mr. Van Drew. I am asking you as a person, as a human 
being, sitting next to Mr. Rosenberg, is it good, should we--or 
is it a waste of time when all these people who wait for years, 
good, hardworking people that want the dream of the shining 
city on the hill--America--is it good, or are they wasting 
their time, and should they just come in illegally?
    Mr. Batista. Mr. Van Drew, I think that the work of--
    Mr. Van Drew. Please answer my question specifically.
    Mr. Batista. The work of determining how that is going to 
work is really on the shoulders of Republicans and Democrats. 
My role is to--
    Mr. Van Drew. So, you are not going to answer my question. 
I am asking you as a person. You vote. You care. I am asking 
you what you think. How do you feel for those people that wait 
for all those years and could have done it a whole different 
way, but believe in the rule of law? It is kind of hard on 
them, don't you think? Those folks don't like what is happening 
in our country right now. Talk to good people who came here 
legally, and they waited, and they worked, and then they 
pledged their allegiance to the flag and to the United States 
of America.
    So, I would ask you if it was a good thing--and this is a 
question. I want to know. If you answer no, it wouldn't be a 
good thing, I want to know why not. If this has been a good 
thing, why don't we open--Asian people are good people; are 
they not? Black people are good people, from Africa. People 
from the Eastern Bloc countries, many of them suffer a great 
deal. People from Russia that could get over from--all over the 
world there are people that want to come to America. So, why 
don't we just open it up? Because it makes us better according 
to you.
    Mr. Batista. Mr. Van Drew, it has been my life's work to--
    Mr. Van Drew. Please answer that question.
    Mr. Batista. --adhere to the rule of law, and so I would 
say that the determination of improving our country's 
immigration laws really rests with Republicans and Democrats.
    Mr. Van Drew. I know where it rests. I understand the 
process. I am asking you what you feel as a human being, as a 
law enforcement officer who has been involved for most of your 
adult life. You told us this is a good thing, people should 
come out, and it improves communities. I want to have an answer 
from you as a human being, is that good for America? Has this 
helped America?
    Mr. Batista. Again, I will say that I believe in the rule 
of law, and our job is immigration laws.
    Mr. Van Drew. You are saying nothing, Mr. Batista. I am 
sorry. I respect you in law enforcement, but I don't respect 
what you are saying.
    I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Ms. Escobar.
    Ms. Escobar. Thank you, Mr. Chair. To our witnesses, thank 
you all for being here.
    Mr. Rosenberg, I want to add my own condolences to you. I 
am a mother of two, and I can't imagine anything happening to 
either of my children. So, I stand with my colleagues who have 
provided their condolences to you.
    I do want to say for people watching this hearing, this is 
my fifth year in Congress, and I have seen a really alarming 
trend that has become increasingly more alarming every year 
that I have been in Congress. That trend is the desire and 
effort to paint immigrants as criminals.
    The reason for that is to essentially dehumanize 
immigrants, and that allows for a furthering of xenophobic 
rhetoric and xenophobic policies and anti-immigrant policies as 
well. There is a serious consequence to engaging that way. 
There is a serious consequence to painting immigrants as 
dangerous or threatening and making the country feel fearful of 
them. That is there is a promotion of hate of immigrants.
    I represent El Paso, Texas. Last week a killer who drove 10 
hours from East Texas to El Paso--El Paso, which is a border 
community that has a quarter of our population that is 
immigrant-born and is also one of the safest communities in the 
United States of American, an individual, a domestic terrorist, 
a White nationalist, drove over 10 hours to my community and he 
confessed that he did that to slaughter Mexicans and immigrants 
because of the invasion.
    That is a word that is frequently used by my colleagues on 
the other side of the aisle and by politicians all across this 
country who want to promote that xenophobia.
    He came to my community, walked into a busy Walmart where 
there were families shopping for school supplies, where there 
were kids raising money for their sports teams, where there 
were senior citizens waiting to buy their prescription 
medication, and he walked in with an assault-style weapon, and 
he slaughtered 23 people. He left dozens injured, and years 
later we are about to--next month will be another terrible 
anniversary. My community still lives with deep trauma and 
profound pain.
    He was not an undocumented immigrant. He was a U.S. 
citizen. U.S. citizens are carrying out massacres across the 
country with automatic-style weapons. I don't see the same 
urgency to have that conversation from my colleagues on the 
other side of the aisle.
    I will say, representing the border, and living on the 
border, and being a third-generation border resident, having 
raised both my children--both of whom are fourth-generation 
border residents--on the border, there is nobody who wants a 
well-managed, safe border more than those of us who live there.
    But the only way to do it is if Republicans work with 
Democrats in a bipartisan manner to update laws that haven't 
been updated in almost 40 years.
    Mr. Batista, one of my colleagues decided to try to badger 
you into trying to get you to acknowledge I don't know what, 
and, unfortunately, this is the same deflection I see over and 
over again from colleagues who love to point the finger at 
other people about immigration laws, but colleagues who refuse 
to look in the mirror to say, ``It is my job and my obligation 
to update outdated immigration laws.''
    So, I will tell all of you here, it is our job to address 
the situation. A key way to address this and to create safer 
communities is by opening up legal pathways. Unfortunately, we 
are not going to see that from our colleagues, by and large, on 
the other side of the aisle, and instead we are going to see 
the same thing, which is a shrinking of legal pathways, a 
refusal to modernize outdated laws, and that is precisely what 
creates a deeply broken system.
    With that, Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Ms. Spartz.
    Ms. Spartz. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I actually disagree with 
the concept that unless laws change we are not going to be 
enforcing them. The law is the law, and we have to have the 
rule of law. We have laws on the books. They might need to 
change. If they change, they change. Refusing to enforce the 
laws that exist on the books, I think it is dereliction of 
duty, and I truly believe it puts a significant national 
security risk.
    I have been at the border many times since I became 
Congresswoman, and I am shocked, and I think it is not just 
national security risk, it is actually huge security risk for a 
lot of desperate people that come here and become pretty much 
puppets and control and slaves to cartels that make enormous 
amount of money.
    So, this is very concerning. As illegal immigrant to this 
country, I understand how hard it is--and many other people--to 
try to immigrate here. We have the law, and we have the rule of 
law. If we have to look at the laws--but no excuse not 
enforcing the law because a lot of lives are going to be 
destroyed because of that.
    Mr. Fabbricatore--and I apologize if I say your name 
wrong--would you be surprised to know that 10 months into 
Fiscal Year 2023, ICE Denver has only removed 429 aliens with 
final orders of removal pursuant to INA Section 240, and has 
only removed 256 aliens whose final orders were reinstated? Do 
these low interior removal numbers surprise you?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, ma'am. Those are low.
    Ms. Spartz. Do they surprise you? Was it something 
different when you actually were in office?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. No, it doesn't surprise me because of the 
enforcement priorities right now. So, I am not surprised that 
those numbers would be low.
    Ms. Spartz. So, do you believe--because when I observed 
when I was at the border, I was very surprised to see how 
selective enforcement is, and laws. When you go in processing 
centers, it was during COVID pandemic, there are people on top 
of each other, and no one enforcing it.
    Then you go to ICE facility, there has to be isolations, 
and everyone has to be there at a distance, which actually 
decreased capacity. A lot of border patrol just have to pretty 
much let people go, sometimes with the NTA, sometimes were with 
that, then in shelters where they need to move along kids and 
stop even do proper checking who they send them kids because 
they are were found there. So, very strange to me because it 
seems like that is the places where we should have really start 
looking at what is going on and put danger on these people.
    Do you believe this law actually puts real people, real 
lives in danger, including people at the border?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Absolutely it puts lives at danger.
    Ms. Spartz. I think you know what Mr. Rosenberg--you see 
what that has to do in the community. I have quickly to ask, 
Mr. Batista, do you believe in the rule of law?
    Mr. Batista. Chair McClintock, Ms. Spartz, do I believe in 
the rule of law?
    Ms. Spartz. Yes.
    Mr. Batista. Yes.
    Ms. Spartz. So, you believe we have the rule of law at our 
Southern border? Does it function ineffectively? The rule of 
law and the legal system is actually functioning in our border, 
do you believe is a fact, what is happening in our border?
    Mr. Batista. Ms. Spartz, I support the strengthening of 
our--
    Ms. Spartz. No. I am just asking, do you--on your 
assessment--you are professional, you are a district attorney, 
you are--what do you believe? Do we have--you actually the 
functioning--the rule of law at the border?
    Mr. Batista. Ms. Spartz, could you repeat the question 
specifically?
    Ms. Spartz. So, at now current situation at the border, at 
our current situation at the border, do you think we have the 
rule of law at our Southern border?
    Mr. Batista. What we need to make sure is that the border 
is secure, ma'am.
    Ms. Spartz. I am just saying, do we have it or not, in your 
assessment as a professional?
    Mr. Batista. That is the part that I leave to Federal 
immigration authorities, ma'am.
    Ms. Spartz. So, you cannot assess the situation on the 
border.
    Mr. Batista. No, ma'am.
    Ms. Spartz. OK. What about you, Mr.--I am not sure if I say 
your name right--Mr. Schoenleben.
    Mr. Schoenleben. Yes, ma'am.
    Ms. Spartz. Do you believe we have the rule of law function 
at the border?
    Mr. Schoenleben. Ma'am, I wouldn't begin to testify about 
what is going on at the border. What I can tell you is, and 
what I am here to say for our office, is there are current 
loopholes through the ESTA Visa Program as well as with the 
border, through sanctuary--or, excuse me, through individuals 
claiming status at the border. So, those flaws at the border, 
and through the ESTA Program, are creating criminals.
    One of those issues with ESTA Program can be fixed tonight, 
and there will be less victims tomorrow, if that--
    Ms. Spartz. So, you believe there are problems at the 
border. You live in the State of California. No matter which 
district you represent this is your State. You should know what 
is happening at your border.
    Mr. Schoenleben. If your question is, do I think there are 
problems at the border, yes.
    Ms. Spartz. Yes. Well, what about Mr. Batista? Do you 
believe you don't have problems at the border? Are you not 
familiar what is happening at your border? This is--California 
has a border.
    Mr. Batista. Ma'am, again, my responsibility is with the 
city of Santa Monica, and I--
    Ms. Spartz. So, you don't go to the border at all. You 
don't even know what is happening at the border.
    Mr. Batista. Our partners with Federal immigration and 
protection of the border, I certainly support that. Yes, ma'am.
    Ms. Spartz. OK. Well, it is unfortunate, because I think we 
need to find common ground, but I think we need to enforce the 
law because a lot of lives are going to be destroyed.
    I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Ms. Jackson Lee.
    Ms. Spartz. Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to insert 
into the record Fiscal Year 2023 removal numbers from ICE 
enforcement and removal operations.
    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.
    Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair, I also have an unanimous consent 
request to enter into the record statements from the following 
organizations that have concerns about the conflation of crime 
and immigration. Asian Pacific Institute on Gender-Based 
Violence, ASISTA Immigration Assistance, Church World Service, 
Detention Watch Network, Esperanza United, National Network to 
End Domestic Violence, Tahirih Justice Center, and ValorUS.
    Mr. McClintock. Without objection.
    Mr. McClintock. Ms. Jackson Lee.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Whether I agree with all of you or none of you, let me 
express my appreciation for your presence here today.
    With a little level of seniority, I have been through this 
for 28 years on this Committee, and actually worked on any 
number of comprehensive immigration reform initiatives that 
just couldn't find common ground.
    We are now at a point where common ground couldn't be found 
with a microscope. We were far closer to common ground on this 
issue in 2008, 2010, with Senator McCain and the Gang of eight. 
I wish America had taken up that opportunity, because if we 
look at our history, this is a land of immigrants and a land of 
laws. All of us came here. Mine was dastardly. Others struggled 
and died coming. Others migrated, immigrated, fleeing famine 
and persecution, and so we all have come here strangers other 
than our friends who are Native Americans.
    It gives me pause when people want to demonize immigrants, 
migrants, and they want the same opportunities all of us do.
    Unlike my friend, Mr. Rosenberg, I am going to offer 
sympathy. I am sorry that the laws did not, I believe, 
fittingly respond to your pain and to your loss. We need to 
realize that any form of crime is addressed to appropriately 
for the level of crime that it is.
    I do want to say that witnesses who offer themselves before 
us do not need to be battered, do not need to be challenged for 
the distinctiveness of their views. They need to be probed.
    So, let me, first, quickly say that statistics have shown 
that the end of Title 42, or the thought was by Republicans 
that it results in a flood of migrants. The border numbers have 
fallen over 70 percent of migrants in the past few months. It 
also finds that trust cities, that both property and violent 
crime decreased more in those counties than in nontrust 
counties after 2014.
    In fact, they found that on average there are 35.5 fewer 
crimes per 10,000 people in these ``trust counties.'' 
Reinforcing this, the effect is even more pronounced in large 
urban areas which have been condemned by my Republican friends. 
I happen to live in a city that is enormously diverse, and that 
is Houston, Texas, and we are proudly so.
    Houston has--more than 26 percent of our Houston metro area 
GDP is contributed to by immigrants, five billion to Social 
Security, and 1.4 billion to Medicare. Immigrants make up over 
30 percent of the employed labor force. They fill labor 
shortages in the Houston market.
    Yes, if you have done the crime, I want ICE to be able to 
do its job. I see nothing that has prevented them from doing 
so. The poverty levels are not as high in trust counties.
    So, let me ask, Sheriff Batista, if I have not gotten your 
title right, forgive me, because I appreciate you coming here. 
Is the title right, Sheriff? Chief. Excuse me. Let me ask you 
if I might, we have sheriffs and chiefs in Texas. I know you do 
as well.
    Let me ask you this. First, we have accusatory commentary 
of Soros DAs. Let's not put an individual that is not here, a 
contributing American, and jeopardize his life, for always 
throwing his name out in the most ugliest of ways. I am 
offended by that. Mr. Soros does not deserve that. He is an 
American and a patriot, and he also comes from a minority 
community, one might say, and you create a dangerous situation. 
That is unfortunate.
    Chief, how should the Federal government help support these 
jurisdictions while also ensuring the immigration law is 
enforced? When I say ``these jurisdictions,'' I am suggesting 
jurisdictions who may be more prone for immigrants, in some 
instances migrants, how can we work with you better? Chief?
    Mr. Batista. Chair McClintock, Ms. Jackson Lee, thank you 
for the question. I would say that the division of labor, the 
fact that Federal government is charged with the 
responsibilities of Federal immigration should continue to be 
that way. We can work alongside Federal immigration in 
situations where we are dealing with violent felons, certainly, 
for the safety of our Nation and our community.
    The work of ensuring public safety in our neighborhoods and 
our cities day to day, that is our responsibility, and we can't 
be drawn into the daily issues of low-level immigration cases, 
where we are more responsible to the primary public safety 
needs of our communities.
    The work of Federal immigration and immigration enforcement 
lies with them, and it should stay with them.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. If you build trust in your community with 
citizen/noncitizen, migrant/nonmigrant, immigrant/nonimmigrant, 
can you help solve crimes? Can your community be safer if 
people are willing to come and tell you where the criminal is?
    Mr. Batista. Without a doubt, ma'am.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. That is how crime goes down.
    Mr. Batista. Absolutely.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you.
    Mr. Nehls.
    Mr. Nehls. Thank you, Chair. Thank you all for being here.
    Mr. Rosenberg, you have heard just about every Member here 
express their condolences for the loss of your son back in 
2010. I feel your pain here. I just want you to know that 
tomorrow--this week--I will be reintroducing the Justice for 
Angel Families Act, and that legislation would amend the Crime 
Victims Fund to expand funds to angel families who are victims 
of homicide by an illegal immigrant.
    I think Ms. Jackson Lee just expressed her sorrow to you, 
so I am hoping that I can get some bipartisan support on that 
to help victims, individuals that have been murdered, as a 
result of activities from illegal aliens. So, hopefully we can 
get some bipartisan support on that.
    Mr. Rosenberg. Thank you.
    Mr. Nehls. Mr. Fabbricatore, thank you for being here. The 
shocking decline in enforcement activity, my friend at our 
Southern border must be sickening to a guy like you an ICE 
enforcement removal officer like yourself. I can't imagine how 
you feel, having dedicated your entire career to enforcement of 
U.S. immigration laws, and then seeing what is happening today.
    I want to talk about some of the arrest numbers that we see 
behind me on this chart. They were pulled from ICE's own data. 
Before we get into that, I just want to let you know we talked 
to--you talked about detainers, ICE detainers. I was a sheriff 
for eight years. I was in it for almost 30. As a sheriff, I 
complied with every single ICE detainer that ever came through 
my office.
    Now, we had a few that didn't, and Texas created a law that 
stated that if a sheriff does not comply with the detainer from 
ICE that they could potentially be removed from office, and I 
support that. So, hopefully sheriffs have straightened 
themselves out a little bit, and they comply with every single 
ICE detainer.
    Can you explain why the number in arrests have dropped so 
drastically over the last couple of years?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Well, I think there are definitely a lot 
of different reasons. One, the priorities for sure, but also, 
because of what is happening at the border moves into the 
interior, so every single State is now a border State. ICE 
officers are now having to process those cases from the border 
at their ICE offices. So, instead of being on the street and 
making these arrests, they are forced to stay in the office and 
just process cases.
    Mr. Nehls. Got it. Got it. My time as sheriff, I ran for 
Congress because I was just disgusted what took place at the 
Southern border. I am going to highlight a few of the cases 
that I had. I had six undocumented immigrants burglarize 70 
homes; six of them they were undocumented. They were in Fort 
Bend County. They were in Brazoria County. We arrested six of 
them. All of them had entered the U.S. illegally. They were 
from Honduras and Mexico.
    What is interesting is that when they burglarized a home, 
you know who they targeted? They targeted Indian, Asian, and 
Middle Eastern communities. Think about that now. They targeted 
the minority migrant communities. They stole hides and jewelry. 
They stole money.
    January 26, 2017, we arrested 17 individuals. They were 
from Colombia. One hundred 20 break-ins, again, stole jewelry, 
purses, working with HPD--Sheila, we were working with HPD--
worked very, very hard. One of the individuals, this bad 
hombre, he was actually deported in 2014 and had ties to 
terrorism. He had terrorist ties to the FARC, which is a 
terrorist group coming out of Colombia.
    A lot of these guys have been deported more than one time, 
yet they continue to find their way back here to commit more 
crime. Three of them had been previously deported, and this guy 
I have highlighted him before. This gentleman killed a senior 
lady in my county, and he is from Honduras, and he--just a 
second.
    So, he has been deported six previous times. So, we talked 
earlier, that we are going to talk about what is happening 
inside the country, right? When you are in the country and you 
commit a crime and you are deported, how do you get back here 
so quickly? This guy came back December 2001 and 2012-2015. 
They are back within several months, this guy, and he killed. 
So, we have serious, serious issues.
    Mr. Batista, I just want to kind of talk--I know 
Representative Nadler brought up to you about this White 
supremacist or nationalist or something, the domestic 
terrorist, that killed individuals, shot and killed. It is 
horrible, horrible, what happened, and he asked you, how has 
that affected the Mexican community? What was your answer? Did 
you say they are kind of going underground, do you believe? 
They are scared as a result.
    Mr. Batista. Chair McClintock, Mr. Nehls, that is correct.
    Mr. Nehls. OK. How do you think the communities--the Asians 
and the Pakistanis and the Middle Eastern communities feel when 
their homes are being burglarized, they steal all their family 
heirlooms, right, they are here trying to live and try to come 
here legally, and then they are victims of crime by these 
illegal alien criminals. How do you think they feel? What 
should they feel? You are a sheriff or a lawman.
    Mr. Batista. Mr. Nehls, I think we should all be outraged 
by any criminal activity.
    Mr. Nehls. Mr. Batista, they are madder than hell. They are 
madder than hell. It requires guys like me and others to put 
these individuals--and it is the Federal government's 
responsibility to keep them out of our country.
    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's--
    Mr. Nehls. With that, I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you.
    Ms. Ross.
    Ms. Ross. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Rosenberg, I, too, want to express my sympathy for you 
and for your loss, and my heart goes out to you. We should all 
endeavor to crack down on people who commit serious violent 
crime, no matter who they are or where they come from. So, I am 
very sorry for your loss.
    This hearing--and I am toward the end, so I have gotten to 
listen to the whole thing--is yet another attempt to scare the 
public about immigration and immigrants. We have seen with my 
colleague's chart, and heard today, that crime rates among 
immigrants, both legal and undocumented, are lower than those 
among native-born Americans. That doesn't excuse the crime. It 
is just a fact.
    Today I want to do something a little upbeat. I want to 
highlight an all-American city in my district in North 
Carolina. It is called Morrisville, an all-American city that 
was awarded in 2021 and recognized Morrisville for its 
inclusive civic engagement to build equity and create stronger 
connections among residents, businesses, nonprofits, and 
government leaders.
    Morrisville was one of only 10 cities selected for this 
award in 2021, and it is also home to a thriving immigrant 
community. More than 35 percent of Morrisville's residents are 
immigrants, four times greater than the immigrant population 
rate of North Carolina.
    Despite what Republicans would have you believe about towns 
and cities with large immigrant populations, Morrisville 
doesn't experience high crime rates. In fact, both violent 
crime and property crime rates fall below the State as well as 
the national averages in Morrisville.
    Additionally, Morrisville's poverty rate is \1/3\ of the 
rate in North Carolina. Not only is Morrisville a safe place to 
live, but its residents are also highly educated. The high 
school graduation rate is 10 percent higher than North Carolina 
State average, and the town population with a bachelor's degree 
or higher is more than double the State average.
    Morrisville is moving North Carolina forward and is home to 
some of the brightest minds in the Nation, and it has become a 
tech hub for the Research Triangle.
    There is a sad thing about Morrisville and all of these 
immigrants there. Because of our broken immigration system, 
many of the people who brought their children here have 
children who are aging out of the visa process, and their 
children will be what my colleagues on the other side of the 
aisle call illegal aliens, kids who came here documented, but 
because of our broken immigration system, and the long lines 
for getting a visa, at age 21 they have to self-deport.
    It is about time that we stop vilifying all immigrants, 
claiming that they are not making our country better. I am here 
to tell you that I am so proud to represent Morrisville and the 
immigrants in my community. We need to focus on violent crime 
wherever it comes from, and we need to celebrate industry and 
family however it is celebrated.
    Now, I do have a question for Chief Batista. You have 
served in law enforcement for 37 years across two border 
states. Would you agree that the vast majority of undocumented 
immigrants that you have encountered are otherwise law-abiding 
individuals who want nothing more than the American dream?
    Mr. Batista. Chair McClintock, Ms. Ross, that is correct.
    Ms. Ross. Do you think that it makes sense to try to deport 
every one of these undocumented immigrants, or would it make 
more sense to focus enforcement efforts on serious criminals, 
whether those folks are undocumented or documented?
    Mr. Batista. Yes, ma'am. I would agree.
    Ms. Ross. Finally, could you just very briefly--we only 
have a couple minutes--discuss how reforming our immigration 
system by creating additional legal pathways will make our 
communities safer?
    Mr. Batista. My experience, nearly 40 years, and certainly 
the data has shown that, yes, improving and legally documenting 
our immigrant communities will make our country safer.
    Ms. Ross. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you.
    Mr. Batista, Chief Batista, I assume that the policies that 
you have advocated here today are the policies that you have 
practiced as Chief of the Santa Monica Police Department since 
you took that position in October 2021?
    Mr. Batista. Chair McClintock, yes, sir. That is correct.
    Mr. McClintock. Well, forgive me, but according to a CBS 
report from April 2022, Santa Monica was one of the most unsafe 
cities in California. In fact, according to the city's first 
quarter 2023 crime statistics, crime is getting worse overall.
    Part 1 offenses, the most serious offenses, have increased 
14 percent in the first quarter of 2023 when compared with the 
same timeframe in 2022 when Santa Monica was already rated one 
of the most unsafe cities in California, 224th I believe. So, 
the policies you have advocated don't seem to be working.
    Mr. Batista. Those statistics are correct as you have 
enumerated them, Chair McClintock.
    Mr. McClintock. Thank you. Mr. Fabbricatore, we have heard 
the discredited Cato study hold out once again using the Texas 
DPS numbers. It is discredited because they didn't include 
certain visa holders, DPS beneficiaries, doctor recipients 
among the others, which means that they got a cut of the 
population of illegal aliens who were arrested rather 
dramatically.
    What we have heard today from the Democrats is the same 
tactic they use repeatedly in these discussions. They love to 
confuse legal immigrants, who are the very epitome of law-
abiding individuals, they have obeyed all our laws, they have 
waited patiently in line, they have done everything our country 
has asked of them, and they love to equate them, these model 
people, with illegal immigrants whose very first act entering 
this country through the Southern border is to break our laws.
    Would you elaborate on that?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir. As a Field Office Director, my 
favorite thing to do would be to go to naturalization 
ceremoneys and see people raise their right hand and swear 
allegiance to this country and become citizens. We are a 
country of immigrants, and we should do it legally like many 
people have.
    When we allow people to just continuously come in and break 
our immigration laws, it is constantly getting worse. We can no 
longer get a hold on it. The border is not operationally safe. 
The interior of the United States, more and more crime is 
starting to be committed, and we need to do something about it. 
We need to figure out what that is going to be.
    Congress can change the laws, if they choose to. We really 
need to get a hold on this because it is getting out of hand.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Rosenberg, did you want to add 
anything?
    Mr. Rosenberg. Well, I actually had made some notes, and 
the one thing that I was going to add is conflating immigrants 
with illegal immigrants--with illegal aliens--
    Mr. McClintock. The Democrats do this all the time. It is 
so unfair and insulting to every legal immigrant in this 
country. I find it infuriating and insulting.
    Mr. Rosenberg. Well, it is. I just wanted to--I know Ms. 
Escobar left the room, but she made a comment about painting 
immigrants with crime. What I think--the correct statement is 
that--``you'' being the Democratic party--you can't paint 
immigrant as crime by painting illegal aliens as immigrants. 
So, let's stop. I haven't heard anybody here today talk about 
immigrants in a negative way.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Fabbricatore--
    Mr. Rosenberg. You guys keep saying it.
    Mr. McClintock. I wanted to emphasize something to be sure 
that I understood you correctly. You said that if the 
deportations had simply continued as under the previous 
administration, there would have been 90,000 more criminal 
illegal aliens removed from this country?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes. If we looked at previous numbers, if 
it would have just been--we would have been going in the same 
direction--
    Mr. McClintock. Ninety-thousand criminals.
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Ninety-thousand criminals, yes.
    Mr. McClintock. You also said 300,000 crimes?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes. Because the recidivist rate--what we 
are seeing with statistics is there is a recidivism rate with 
criminal illegal aliens, and that is about four per alien.
    Mr. McClintock. Are you saying that there are 300,000 more 
American families who have suffered acts of crime as a result 
of this administration's policies?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Schoenleben, could you explain 
California's sanctuary laws and policies and how they affect 
overall crime in your jurisdiction?
    Mr. Schoenleben. Yes. Mr. Chair, what we have seen in our 
State already is we have individuals of the criminal element 
coming to our State to commit our crimes. What I want to be 
very clear for our office, we are not talking about immigrants 
as a whole.
    We are talking about the criminal element that is 
exploiting our border and our policies such as the ESTA 
Program. It is those individuals that our office is here 
representing on behalf of victims today. It is because those 
individuals are exploiting those loopholes and committing mass 
amounts of crimes.
    As a quick example, per the FBI, the Chilean nationals that 
are committing the vast majority of crime in Southern 
California, 85 percent of those individuals have criminal 
histories back in Chile. Those are individuals that never 
should have been granted an ESTA visa in the first place. They 
are individuals that never should have been here. Nor should 
the Colombian nationals who claim--falsely claim asylum to only 
get into this country to commit crime. It is the criminal 
organizations and the transnational criminal crews that we are 
talking about today, not immigrants as a whole, and they are 
flocking to California.
    Mr. McClintock. All right. Thanks very much.
    I believe that concludes the panel. Mr. Moore.
    Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. McClintock. Thanks to all the 
witnesses for being here today. We had Sheriff Dannels before 
this Committee a few weeks ago, gentlemen, and he testified 
that the border had never been more secure than it was in 2018. 
He had never seen it more broken than it is currently.
    Mr. Fabbricatore, why would people South of the border 
throw their IDs down before getting to the border?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. They don't want people to know who they 
are. That is the exact reason they try to lose their ID.
    Mr. Moore. So, you are saying, they throw their ID down. 
Nobody knows who they are. They come in the country. In 
Prattville a few months ago, I had a 14-year-old girl, it is 
alleged that an illegal drug her into a rest room and raped her 
in a restaurant there in Prattville, Alabama in my district, a 
29-year-old, identified as an unaccompanied minor. He didn't 
have any ID and it was found out later he was from Honduras, 
and he actually had a criminal record, so you think they throw 
their IDs down, so we just don't know who they are?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Exactly.
    Mr. Moore. Got you. Mr. Schoenleben, that is a Southern way 
of pronouncing your name. You mentioned earlier in your 
testimony that Chilean nationals are actually turning 
themselves in. Are they turning themselves in to the CBP? Is 
that what is going on?
    Mr. Schoenleben. No, Your Honor--
    Mr. Moore. That is close enough.
    Mr. Schoenleben. No, sir. Colombians are turning themselves 
in and claiming asylum at the border. Once they get into the 
border, they wait a few days in detention and then they are 
released with a promise to appear in court which they never do. 
So, criminal organizations are targeting that method of entry 
on purpose. Once they are into the country, then they can 
commit crime at will and they are doing so in a fairly 
sophisticated manner.
    Mr. Moore. So, that explains the increase in break-ins we 
are seeing. Is that Colombians you think who are doing that or 
is it--
    Mr. Schoenleben. It is, in general, it is everyone. Crime 
is going through the roof on all scales, both domestic and 
international, but that is part of our problem. We keep talking 
about the different groups that are committing crime. There is 
no question that domestic criminals are committing crime here. 
That is part of the problem. When we start importing criminals 
who are already criminals in their country and then you add 
that to law enforcement which is already at a breaking point, 
that is a problem.
    A great example, Irvine, California, which is considered 
one of the safest cities in the country, recently for 6 months 
straight had to deploy detectives in overtime capacity to try 
to combat this very problem. While they had streets flooded 
with detectives, they were still hit by transnational organized 
crews committing crimes such as residential burglaries. So, 
these law enforcement agencies are already stretched thin and 
then you add that element of exploitation. It is a breaking 
point.
    Mr. Moore. We had a hearing in Yuma, Arizona, and the law 
enforcement agents there testified or told us, actually, during 
testimony, that they had 109 different countries come through 
that one small town. The interesting thing I think was that the 
border agents have almost become concierge guys. They are not 
doing the job anymore of what we want, law enforcement going 
out actually patrolling the border. They have become concierge 
and they are in-processing people. Here is an interesting 
thing, under this administration, they actually can apply for 
asylum. So, they get a cell phone. Then they get taxpayer 
subsidies up to about $900 a month. The thing is they take our 
phones, but they don't take our calls when it is time to show 
up to court. So, doing away with the remaining Mexico policies, 
they are throwing their IDs down, they are pouring across the 
Southern border.
    Mr. Batista, I want to mention this to you. Mr. Wray, the 
Director of FBI testified in here yesterday, that he was having 
a very difficult time controlling crime, especially concerning 
fentanyl because it is pouring across. Do you think the open 
border, Mr. Batista is causing--making your job more difficult? 
Is that why we are seeing statistics go up in your 
neighborhoods with the increased crime?
    Mr. Batista. Chair McClintock, Mr. Moore, I believe that we 
need to have strong border security without a doubt, and I do 
believe that the influx of fentanyl that is coming from 
different parts of the world and definitely afflicting our 
community.
    Mr. Moore. Interesting testimony we also heard, you may 
have heard this, but what is happening, the cartel is actually 
allowing these people to become drug dealers. So, they are 
coming in just South of the border, you are four or five grand 
if you are coming from Mexico to come into our country. You are 
going to pay about seven or eight thousand if you are coming 
from the triangle Nations. Last I heard, Russians were paying 
$19,000 and Syrians were paying $20,000 to the cartel.
    Here is the deal. If you don't have the money, gentlemen, 
you can backpack heroin and cocaine or fentanyl across that 
U.S. Southern border, so you are not an indentured servant or a 
slave to the cartel, you are actually now a drug dealer. So, 
the border policies with the Biden Administration are creating 
two things in this country. Either drug mills or indentured 
slaves to the cartel. So, they are making those installment 
payments back.
    So, Mr. Rosenberg, how many years have you been coming here 
hoping to get some resolve for the loss of your son and that is 
why I didn't offer condolences because you said you have gotten 
more condolences than you can count and you need actually some 
kind of commitment. How long have you been fighting this 
battle?
    Mr. Rosenberg. Well, I started in early 2011, mostly 
working in California, and ironically, mostly working on people 
driving without licenses, not an immigration issue. The guy who 
killed my son probably fit the description of someone who came 
here to better their life. Other than driving the wrong way on 
a one-way street, driving without a license, we couldn't find 
any crimes he had committed in 12 years.
    Mr. Moore. Just that once.
    Mr. Rosenberg. The problem is, he wasn't a threat to public 
safety until he killed my son, that if he hadn't been here, it 
wouldn't have happened. I come pretty much once or twice a 
year.
    Mr. Moore. I am running out of time. So, with that, Mr. 
Chair, I will yield back.
    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Hunt.
    Mr. Hunt. Thank you all for being here today. Sir, my 
condolences to your son. I am very sorry for your loss.
    Mr. Rosenberg. Thank you.
    Mr. Hunt. We are talking about the consequences of criminal 
aliens in United States' communities. Take a walk around any 
large city in America and you will see the devastating effects 
of these open-border policies that we have seen ravage our 
communities over the course of the past few years. Crime, gang 
activity, drugs, just to name a few, but there is a far more 
sinister of criminal activity that is not as visible as drug 
trafficking, gang activity, or just the general degradation of 
our cities. It is far worse, actually or worse to me. It is 
human trafficking.
    I love my city of Houston. Houston is known as the energy 
capital of the world. It is known as a lot of great things, 
great food as well, but unfortunately, we are also known as the 
human trafficking capital of the world as well. That has to 
change.
    I could tell you I am very proud to cosponsor a bill 
introduced by my colleague, Sheila Jackson Lee. It is called 
the Stop Human Trafficking in School Zones Act. This bipartisan 
effort is necessary because that is how bad the problem is. 
This bill will increase the prison time up to five years for 
certain human trafficking offenses and sex offenses involving 
minors that occur within a thousand feet of schools, within a 
hundred feet of certain other places where children gather, 
like youth centers and swimming pools.
    As a father of three children under the age of five, these 
people belong in a special place in hell if you ask me. Five 
years, not enough, is a start.
    One thing that I do know is that if President Biden and the 
Democrat Governors and mayors were serious about human 
trafficking, they would stop their destructive sanctuary city 
policies. You gentlemen have addressed this pretty clearly to 
me.
    Mr. Fabbricatore, thank you for being here, sir. I met you 
earlier in the hallway. I have a question for you, sir. In your 
23 years of experience working at INS and ICE, what can you 
tell me about the seriousness of child trafficking and what you 
personally experienced as a result of the issue that we have 
seen with our open border policies?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Well, No. 1, I mean they stopped the DNA 
testing at the border, so we were testing adults to see if they 
had a DNA match with children. That policy has stopped, and I 
cannot figure out for the life of me why you would not want to 
figure out if a child that is being brought into the United 
States actually belongs to the adult that they are traveling 
with. Now, we have stopped that, so now we are allowing these 
people to bring these children into the interior and we have no 
idea who they belong to. We have no idea if there is a familial 
connection. This is wrong. It needs to stop.
    We have children being brought in and we have children 
missing right now. We don't even know where they are because 
they have been brought in and they have either absconded, they 
have gone off. They are being used to traffick drugs. Myself, 
in my career, I have arrested juveniles dealing heroin on 
jogging paths. So, these juveniles are being used by the 
cartels to deal drugs and they are being brought into this 
country and the fact that we have stopped the DNA program, this 
administration stopped it, it is unfathom-
able to me.
    Mr. Hunt. Do you agree that child sex trafficking as a 
result of this crisis at our Southern border has increased?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, sir. I do.
    Mr. Hunt. Without equivocation?
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Yes, I agree.
    Mr. Hunt. Biden's policies, they have resulted in countless 
numbers of minors being abused and bussed across our border and 
sold into sex slavery. Under the guise of protecting illegal 
aliens, the Biden Administration is, in fact, protecting human 
traffickers and harming God's children, our children.
    Now, many of my colleagues on the left may say that we are 
unfairly targeting illegal aliens and that American citizens 
commit crimes, too. I have also heard racism being blamed and 
xenophobia being blamed, and I can tell you as a Black man for 
a very long time, I am not racist nor xenophobic, I just want 
us to enforce our laws and I expect them to be abided by so 
that we can save our children.
    I have also heard some of my colleagues on the left say 
that the global sex trafficking of children is a QAnon 
conspiracy. According to The New York Times, 85,000 migrant 
children that have our country have been lost. They have 
vanished and where do you think they went? Exactly where they 
went and what is happening is grotesque. It is wrong. If we 
can't protect our children, if we can't protect the world's 
children, then we absolutely have no future.
    I cannot thank you enough for being here. I cannot thank 
you enough for your hard work and your sacrifice.
    Sir, we will do better because we have to. Thank you for 
all your efforts and I am sorry for the loss of your son. God 
bless you and thank you.
    I yield back the rest of my time.
    Mr. Fabbricatore. Thank you.
    Mr. McClintock. Does that now conclude our questions? I 
believe it does. Very well. Well timed, too. I see two bells on 
the board. Thank you all for being here today. Without 
objection, all Members will have five legislative days to 
submit additional written questions for the witnesses or 
additional materials for the record. With that, again, our 
sincere thanks to all of you for making the trip here today. 
With that, the hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 5:04 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the 
Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and 
Enforcement can be found at the following links: https://
docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=116200.

                                 [all]