[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


   FIELD HEARING ON THE STATE OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY: THE HEARTLAND

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION
                               __________

                             MARCH 7, 2023
                               __________

                            Serial No. 118-3
                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on Ways and Means
         
         
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                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                    
53-101                     WASHINGTON : 2024                     



                      COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS

                    JASON SMITH, Missouri, Chairman
VERN BUCHANAN, Florida               RICHARD E. NEAL, Massachusetts
ADRIAN SMITH, Nebraska               LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas
MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania             MIKE THOMPSON, California
DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona            JOHN B. LARSON, Connecticut
DARIN LaHOOD, Illinois               EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon
BRAD WENSTRUP, Ohio                  BILL PASCRELL, Jr., New Jersey
JODEY ARRINGTON, Texas               DANNY DAVIS, Illinois
DREW FERGUSON, Georgia               LINDA SANCHEZ, California
RON ESTES, Kansas                    BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
LLOYD SMUCKER, Pennsylvania          TERRI SEWELL, Alabama
KEVIN HERN, Oklahoma                 SUZAN DelBENE, Washington
CAROL MILLER, West Virginia          JUDY CHU, California
GREG MURPHY, North Carolina          GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin
DAVID KUSTOFF, Tennessee             DAN KILDEE, Michigan
BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania      DON BEYER, Virginia
GREG STEUBE, Florida                 DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York             BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
MICHELLE FISCHBACH, Minnesota        JIMMY PANETTA, California
BLAKE MOORE, Utah
MICHELLE STEEL, California
BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
RANDY FEENSTRA, Iowa
NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
MIKE CAREY, Ohio
                       Mark Roman, Staff Director
                 Brandon Casey, Minority Chief Counsel
                                 ------                                

                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                              ----------                              

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Jason Smith, a Representative from Missouri, Chairman.......     1
Hon. Richard Neal, a Representative from Massachusetts, Ranking 
  Member.........................................................     2
Advisory of March 7, 2023 announcing the hearing.................     V

                               WITNESSES

Bryan Jackson, Owner, Route 66 Meat Processing...................     5
Chuck Mills, Owner and President, Mills Machine Company Inc......    11
Kelli Payne, Former President, Oklahoma National Stockyards......    15
Joe Brevetti, Managing Member, Charter Oak Production Co.........    20
Shiloh Kantz, Executive Director, Oklahoma Policy Institute......    29

                           LOCAL SUBMISSIONS

Local Submissions................................................   101

                           PUBLIC SUBMISSIONS

Public Submissions...............................................   103

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            THE STATE OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY: THE HEARTLAND

                              ----------                              


                         TUESDAY, MARCH 7, 2023

                          House of Representatives,
                               Committee on Ways and Means,
                                                   Washington, D.C.
    The committee met, pursuant to call, at 8:02 a.m. at 
Express Clydesdales, 12701 W. Wilshire Blvd, Yukon, OK 73099, 
Hon. Jason Smith [chairman of the committee] presiding.
    Chairman SMITH. The committee will come to order.
    Without objection, the gentleman from Oklahoma, Chairman 
Lucas, is authorized to participate in the hearing and ask 
questions.
    Welcome to the second field hearing of the Ways and Means 
Committee.
    Thank you to our host, Express Clydesdales, and to 
Representative Hern and Representative Lucas, for hosting us in 
your beautiful State.
    The committee is in Yukon, Oklahoma, today to listen to 
working Americans about how to make life better for their 
families, neighbors, and communities. Oklahoma is a place where 
self-reliance and the frontier spirit run deep. Oil, natural 
gas, and agriculture built Oklahoma. America's heartland is the 
story of the people who fuel, feed, and build our country.
    Today, two-thirds of all the energy produced in Oklahoma is 
exported across the country and the world. The State is the 
number one producer of rye, one of the top producers of beef 
cattle, and it has the fourth largest number of farms in 
America. And yet, Democrats in Congress and the White House 
have targeted communities like this one for the heavy hand of 
government regulation. ESG standards will limit the capital 
needed to expand Oklahoma's oil and gas leadership and put 
radical climate and social policies ahead of the retirement 
security of working families.
    The President's policies have made life unaffordable for 
middle-class families. Even here, a State with plentiful 
energy, diesel prices were 62 percent higher at their peak than 
the day Joe Biden became President. Over the last decade, 92 
farms in Oklahoma went bankrupt.
    President Biden, in his budget this week, will want to make 
it even harder to pass the family farm down to the next 
generation. He wants to repeal stepped-up basis and increase 
the death tax, treating family farms like piggy banks to pay 
for more welfare for the wealthy. When it comes to Oklahoma 
manufacturing, the prices that producers pay have risen 17 
percent during President Biden's administration. Small 
businesses can barely make payroll and pay rent with their 
razor-thin margins.
    I am pleased to welcome Bryan Jackson, an Iraq veteran and 
founder of a meat packing company; Chuck Mills, owner of a 
family owned manufacturing company; Kelli Payne, a fifth-
generation rancher from Mustang, Oklahoma; and Joe Brevetti, a 
small oil producer; and Ms. Kantz from Tulsa.
    In 2 days, President Biden will release his latest budget. 
If history is our guide, America's heartland should expect a 
budget that continues Washington's assault on their way of 
life. Biden's last budget threatened $45 billion--$45 billion 
in new taxes on American energy producers. It spent $330 
billion on policies that discouraged work, worsened supply 
chains, and leaves Main Street littered with ``help wanted'' 
signs.
    Biden's 25 percent increase for the EPA would supercharge 
an agency that thinks it is their business to tell farmers 
whether a small stream, pond, or farm dust is is harming the 
environment. We must humbly listen to the working Americans who 
are living under these failed policies so we can chart a better 
course.
    For those of you from the community attending today, or 
employees of Express Clydesdales, we also want to hear from 
you. There will be notebooks and clipboards passed around in 
the back, and I want to encourage every audience member to 
please share your experiences and ideas to help us get this 
country back on the right track. These will be entered into the 
official hearing record to guide this committee's work.
    I want to thank our witnesses for taking the time away from 
their families and busy schedules to be here today, and we look 
forward to your testimony.
    I am pleased to recognize ranking member from 
Massachusetts, Mr. Neal, for his opening statement.
    Mr. NEAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I want to thank Frank, and I want to thank Kevin for their 
warm welcome to Oklahoma.
    If you are wondering what my interest was in Oklahoma, any 
place that produced Mickey Mantle has got to be a great place 
to live.
    So, I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank our 
witnesses for joining us this morning.
    President Biden and congressional Democrats, our economic 
agenda is focused on building the economy from the bottom up 
and the middle out. And the legislation delivered by the Ways 
and Means Committee and Democrats has already delivered for 
Oklahoma, and most importantly, for its workers.
    The State GDP outpaced national growth in the third quarter 
of 2022, and unemployment hovers at historic low rates. I see 
the motto of ``work conquers all,'' and I know you don't take 
it lightly in Oklahoma. But a desire to work isn't all that is 
needed. In even a strong economy, workers must be able to work 
fairly and be compensated fairly.
    Further, supercharging our economy will only come when we 
take action on affordable childcare and universal paid leave 
realities, which will eventually happen. This is why Federal 
direct investments in workers and their families have been so 
crucial to these communities. Democrats expanded the child tax 
credit, which brought nearly 60,000 Oklahoma children out of 
poverty, cutting the poverty rate in half. No policy has done 
more to reduce child poverty than this one.
    The American Rescue Plan permanently increased desperately 
needed Federal care in terms of child investments across 
Oklahoma and other 49 States. The critical step was first in 
expanding that child credit and enabling workers to reenter the 
workforce. I will say again that we will continue to defend 
Social Security and Medicare and not to have any cuts based 
upon some of the proposals that we have heard about.
    We also put money back in the pockets of working Americans 
with the Inflation Reduction Act. We helped lower healthcare 
costs by allowing Medicare to negotiate high-cost drugs, 
capping out-of-pocket costs for 21,000 Oklahoma seniors and 
reducing health insurance premiums for millions of Americans. 
All of these life-saving policies will provide more certainty 
for American families.
    We have already seen this law drive industry action. Just 
this week, a major insulin manufacturer announced a universal 
cap on insulin costs. And our work in spurring growth for small 
businesses and workers and families across the State of 
Oklahoma, in places just like Yukon, will continue, you can be 
assured. This is one of the top States for clean energy 
development, thanks to Oklahoma's ample wind, solar, and hydro 
energy potential, existing infrastructure, and talented labor 
force.
    When coupled with the bipartisan infrastructure law and tax 
credits championed by the Ways and Means Democrats in the 
Inflation Reduction Act, the clean energy economy in Oklahoma 
is accelerating. I must tell you all today that I hope that 
this State, like others, will take full advantage of $369 
billion of tax credits for battery power storage, which this 
State is particularly well positioned to take advantage of.
    An estimated 2,000 clean energy jobs have also been created 
in Oklahoma since last August, and that is just the beginning. 
Companies across the heartland are capitalizing on incentives 
to drive R&D and turbo charge manufacturing right here at home. 
From electric vehicles to wind power, economic growth will be 
felt by rural and industrial communities alike.
    And as you will hear today, the contrast is clear: We want 
to make sure that the wealth of America is evenly distributed 
across this great country of ours. We know that the state of 
our economy is strongest when government puts the interest of 
the middle class over the well-connected and the wealthy.
    We are going to continue to build on that work to expand 
affordable childcare, paid leave, protect Social Security and 
Medicare, and for those who are openly advocating tearing up 
those benefits from the people of Oklahoma. We too understand 
the importance of promoting economic opportunity for family 
farmers and other business in the agricultural sector. One of 
the great things that happened in this country was the unity 
that was caused by great farmers in the farmland of this 
country and what it did for urban people who needed food. You 
helped contribute to making that a reality.
    So, thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank our 
witnesses for being here today. I look forward to them sharing 
their experiences with us.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Ranking Member Neal.
    I am pleased to recognize the gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. 
Hern, for 1 minute.
    Mr. HERN. Thank you, Chairman Smith.
    I want to start by thanking our host and welcoming my 
colleagues to the heartland of America and my home, the great 
State of Oklahoma.
    Although my fellow Oklahomans here today are facing many 
challenges under this administration's economic policies, it is 
fair to say we are all proud to be Americans, but we thank God 
we are from Oklahoma. Most don't know this, everybody thinks of 
us as a 95 percent oil and gas State, but almost 50 percent--
over 50 percent of our energy in our State are from renewables, 
something that needs to get out across America. We believe in 
the all-the-above energy for all of America.
    You know, over the past few years, our State has welcomed 
families and businesses, both small and large, from States like 
New York and California, and we are represented today from our 
members from New York and California. We want them to 
experience--and maybe you all will want to come here also. Not 
in your current capacity, but--in fact, census data shows that 
Oklahoma is among the top ten States in the country where 
people are moving to. But while Americans can migrate to States 
with friendlier business climates, they still face an 
overbearing Federal government and burdensome policies from the 
Biden administration that stunt their growth.
    I am excited for my colleagues to hear the stories of 
hardworking Oklahomans. Unfortunately, many job creators and 
entrepreneurs face unnecessary struggles because of this 
administration's harmful regulation and reckless spending.
    I want to thank our witnesses for being here today. I 
appreciate your time away from what you do every day to come 
here and speak to us. Your testimony today will inform our 
legislative process. And as a former business owner who spent a 
lifetime on farms--I literally sold a farm to buy my first 
McDonald's restaurant--I know firsthand the American people, 
not Washington, know what is best for all of us.
    Thank you, Chairman Smith, for coming to the heart of 
America and allowing Oklahomans to highlight the devastating 
effects of the Biden economy. I yield back.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Hern.
    I am pleased to recognize the other gentleman from 
Oklahoma, the chairman of the Science Committee, Mr. Lucas.
    Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Chairman Smith. And I would like to 
extend a very warm welcome to you and Ranking Member Neal and 
all the other members of the illustrious Ways and Means 
Committee to the great State of Oklahoma.
    For those of you who are not familiar with the committee 
process, I, like many other members, belong to a variety of 
other committees. But my friends here would note to you there 
is only one Ways and Means Committee. Correct, Mr. Chairman?
    Chairman SMITH. That is correct.
    Mr. LUCAS. The topic of this field hearing is not only 
timely and appropriate, but the location is too. I can't think 
of a single industry in our State that is not directly impacted 
by the work of this committee. The future of ag, energy, 
manufacturing in Oklahoma and across the country is dependent 
on tax and trade policies that work for these industries, not 
against them.
    I look forward to joining my colleagues today in learning 
more about the challenges these witnesses are facing on the 
ground and how Congress can help address those issues.
    With that, thank you again, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the 
committee, and I yield back.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you. Mr. Chairman.
    I would like to introduce our witnesses. Mr. Bryan Jackson 
runs Route 66 Meat Processing & Market, Oklahoma's only USDA 
inspected meat processing facility. He is a West Point graduate 
and served in the Army for 6 years for which he was awarded the 
Distinguished Service Cross and Purple Heart.
    Mr. Chuck Mills is owner and President of Mills Machine 
Company, Incorporated, a major custom manufacturer of Earth-
drilling tools founded by his family in 1908. The company now 
exports an average 25 percent of its products to an estimated 
70 international markets.
    Ms. Kelli Payne is a fifth-generation farmer and rancher 
from Mustang, Oklahoma, and serves as north central district 
vice president for the Oklahoma Cattlemen's Association and was 
recently appointed as chairperson of the Oklahoma Cattlemen's 
Foundation.
    Mr. Joseph Brevetti manages all aspects of oil and gas 
operations, prospect and property evaluation for independent 
exploration and development for Charter Oak Production.
    And Ms. Shiloh Kantz is the executive director of the 
Oklahoma Policy Institute, an organization she has worked with 
since 2010.
    The committee has received your written statements, and 
they will all be made part of the formal hearing record, as I 
also want to let others in attendance know that they too may 
provide a written statement. Please find the clipboards and 
forms that our teams will have throughout the hearing where you 
can fill those out and submit your information into the record.
    Now for our guests, you each all have 5 minutes to deliver 
your oral remarks.
    Mr. Jackson, you may begin when you are ready.

 STATEMENT OF BRYAN JACKSON, OWNER, ROUTE 66 MEAT PROCESSING, 
                        YUKON, OKLAHOMA

    Mr. JACKSON. Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Neal, 
distinguished members of the committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to appear before you today. It is truly an honor 
for me to be here to share my thoughts with you on the state of 
the American economy.
    I have had the honor to serve in combat in Iraq, spent a 
decade in the oil field, and now own and operate a USDA-
inspected meat processing facility in western Oklahoma. We are 
located about halfway between Amarillo and Oklahoma City, so we 
serve customers from two States. From our faith in God and a 
little perseverance, we built our facility from the ground up 
during the COVID pandemic and are one of twelve USDA-inspected 
plants in the State. We left the city life to live on my wife's 
fifth-generation family farm. To give you an idea of our size, 
a large meat packer can process 800 beef in a day. We process 
that in a year. It takes dozens of plants like ours across each 
State to meet the demands of the local community.
    Our first challenge I would like to discuss is labor. And 
there is a families quote by Michael Hopf that sums it up: Hard 
times create strong people; strong people create good times; 
good times create weak people; weak people create hard times.
    Coming out of the COVID pandemic, we are still facing an 
increasingly challenging work environment where employees may 
or may not show up to work for a slew of reasons. As a result, 
our ability to complete the work we commit to is made even more 
difficult. Today, we find ourselves counseling and coaxing 
workers into just showing up to work and doing a satisfactory 
job.
    I believe a deterioration of our family structure and work 
ethic contributes to the rise in mental health issues we are 
seeing. Trauma, like what I saw in combat, requires tools to 
learn to cope with, and today that is being substituted in our 
culture by drugs, alcohol, and other harmful vices. I see 
firsthand that we are at a point of weak people creating hard 
times due to a widespread entitled attitude.
    People in our community are suffering, and part of the 
problem is they aren't empowered to change it. Hopelessness and 
depression are rampant, yet there are still hardworking people 
out there, most living paycheck to paycheck, just not as many 
as there used to be. We are grateful for the team we have, and 
we take their welfare very personal. In our small farming 
community, we don't have an endless supply of workers. We are a 
town of 4,800 people, most of whom have to travel for work. We 
work what is considered a dirty job, but still an essential 
job. For our team of people, it provides them a work-life 
balance, but it does require grit.
    I have been humbled several times by corporate layoffs and 
then later by the experience of starting a small business. To 
be as resilient as generations before us, we need to toughen 
up. Failure is part of the journey. Being allowed to fail 
instead of having your way paved for you is empowering. The 
American Dream is not lived on Easy Street. It takes grit and 
the discipline to put the work in day after day to realize the 
American Dream. Employers must adapt to the current work 
environment or risk having to close the shop.
    For 2022, we sent out almost four times more W-2s than the 
number of employees we currently have on staff. Finding ways to 
be more flexible with employee work schedules is key. From my 
time in the Army, I learned that in order to have the best team 
you have to have high standards, but also take care of them. It 
is about respecting other people and their property. And the 
fact is, people do not care what you know until they know that 
you care.
    The second area to cover is inflation. We see firsthand how 
out of control costs have gotten in the last several years. 
Equipment costs have doubled. If you were to construct our 
building today, it would cost at least twice as much. And for 
supplies we face both rising freight cost and parts on back 
order being commonplace.
    Every week we see the purchasing power of our dollar 
continue to decline. When it comes to cash flow we are 
experiencing delayed payment from customers, sometimes up to 60 
days. And for a small business that operates on cash, it 
restricts our ability to meet our obligations on time.
    Interest rates are high even if you have excellent credit. 
The beef industry as a whole is in a tough spot. There is not 
much profitability for a rancher because the cost of fertilizer 
and feed is too high. We have seen smaller and smaller, less 
fed-out cattle come through our facility than when we first 
opened 18 months ago.
    My brother-in-law is a fifth generation rancher who 
supplies all of our beef that we retail on wholesale. And we 
provide farm-to-table beef locally raised, locally processed, 
and we see the impact of higher costs. I am proud to be an 
American and would like to emphasize the importance of creating 
value in American-made products. This will continue to create 
more pride in the work that we do so that more hardworking 
people come to work for the American Dream. At some point, it 
seems like we have lost our way. We need to have pride in the 
products that come from our country.
    And in conclusion, as a nation we face many challenges, but 
there is nothing that we cannot overcome by working together. 
Just as my grandparents did following the Great Depression, the 
hard times we are in now will create a stronger nation for our 
kids. I am encouraged by your willingness to listen and effect 
change.
    Thank you for your consideration of my testimony and for 
your service to our great Nation.
    [The statement of Mr. Jackson follows:]
   
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    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Jackson.
    Mr. Mills, you are now recognized.

 STATEMENT OF CHUCK MILLS, OWNER AND PRESIDENT, MILLS MACHINE 
                 COMPANY INC., YUKON, OKLAHOMA

    Mr. MILLS. Good morning, Chairman Smith, Ranking Member 
Neal, and distinguished members of the committee. It is an 
honor to testify before you today. My name is Chuck Mills. I am 
president of Mills Machine Company, custom manufacturer of 
shallow infrastructure, Earth-drilling tools and bits located 
in Shawnee.
    We were established in 1908 and still operate under the 
same family ownership. I personally have been managing the 
business for 44 years and have guided it through multiple 
booms, busts, and recessions. The last 3 years have been the 
most difficult.
    Before the pandemic, we faced some workforce issues. Our 
company, like so many others, struggled to find skilled 
workers. Initially, I believe that education was one of the 
issues and felt that one solution would be engaging private 
sector business people into the classroom to promote applied 
learning practices that would be beneficial to the students. I 
promoted that while I was the chairman of the State chamber to 
try to get other businesses engaged to do the same.
    As you can tell, I like to be involved in finding solutions 
for common business problems, which is why I have been involved 
in workforce development for 22 years serving on local and 
State workforce boards, so I have a good idea of what the 
problems are.
    Locally, I served as the mayor of Shawnee from 2004 to 
2008. Though we struggled before to find workers before COVID, 
the pandemic made this struggle so much harder on my company 
and employers across Oklahoma. It was hard for me and other 
business owners to understand how the Federal government could 
incentivize Americans to stay home.
    A perfect example of our problem with our supply chain is 
if my supplier is unable to find employees, he is unable to 
provide me the raw materials needed for my business, which 
negatively impacts our ability to satisfy our customers' needs. 
This caused delays throughout the supply chain. The lack of 
workforce, in my opinion, is the root cause of all of our 
problems today.
    To help alleviate the supply chain concerns for my company, 
I had to hire a full-time employee just to source materials. 
This staff member spends all day sourcing best materials and 
availability. We are constantly looking for new vendors so that 
we can remain competitive for our customers.
    We have successfully sourced about 40 to 50 new vendors in 
the last year. When we do find materials we must outlay more 
cash upfront to buy as much product as we can in order to lock 
in the price. The lack of workforce and supply chain issues 
combined with inflationary pressures have made this economy the 
most difficult economy I have dealt with in over 4 decades.
    Prior to the pandemic, we had a predictable price increase 
from 3 to 3.5 percent a year. In 2021, starting really in 
January, we were hammered with compounding price increases for 
our raw materials. Really starting in January of 2021, we first 
had our increase of 25 percent. The following month we had 
another 15, the following 20, and it went from 10 to 25 percent 
for the next 8 months compounding monthly.
    After 8 months, my vendors finally said, I can't send you a 
price list anymore. You will have to call in order to get the 
price, which makes it very difficult to price your products to 
your customers. The practice continued through all of 2022, and 
now in 2023 the prices have stabilized somewhat but have 
increased on others. Due to these price increases, we are 
forced to reprice our materials every 90 days. We offer 
thousands of products, so this is a significant undertaking.
    We also have been forced to import materials in order to be 
competitive. I have explored options for on-shoring and near-
shoring in response to the tariffs on Chinese metal products, 
and it hasn't been competitive. The tariffs simply add 25 
percent to the cost of our raw materials making it harder to be 
competitive in the world economy. Overall, our sales are 
similar to pre-COVID levels, but it is not because we are 
selling more product. We are actually selling less at higher 
prices.
    I am having to spend more and more time on day-to-day 
operations like workforce issues and adjusting prices, which 
has resulted in less time for marketing, new product 
development and business expansion, which will be better for 
our business, the local economy, and the country.
    I love what I do. I love making things and offering 
solutions for our customers. All I ask is for Congress to 
please allow me to continue running my family owned business so 
that I may be able to pass it to the next generation. Please 
encourage all able-bodied Americans to return to the workforce, 
and do not raise taxes that would further restrict our cash 
flow. I will close by asking to not make it any harder for me 
to stay in business here in Oklahoma. Thank you.
    [The statement of Mr. Mills follows:]

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    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Mills.
    Ms. Payne, you are now recognized.

 STATEMENT OF KELLI PAYNE, FORMER PRESIDENT, OKLAHOMA NATIONAL 
                           STOCKYARDS

    Ms. PAYNE. Chairman Smith and members of the Ways and Means 
Committee, I want to thank you for the opportunity to appear 
today. My name is Kelli Payne. I am a fifth-generation farmer 
and rancher from Mustang, Oklahoma, and I have had the 
opportunity to serve on the district staff for former 
Congressman Wes Watkins. I have been a small business owner, 
worked for a number of cattle livestock auctions and cattle 
buying companies, and even ran for Oklahoma City council.
    I have also held a variety of economic development 
positions with an emphasis on agriculture, including previously 
serving as the first-ever female president of the Oklahoma 
National Stockyards. I am currently serving as North Central 
District Vice President for the Oklahoma Cattlemen's 
Association, and was recently appointed as chair of the 
Oklahoma Cattlemen's Foundation. I am also a proud Oklahoma 
Farm Bureau member. While my primary agriculture operation is 
cattle ranching, I also have a family agritourism venture with 
my sister.
    I would like to begin by sharing some very staggering 
numbers relative to the drought. The USDA January 1 inventory 
of all cattle and calves in Oklahoma was down 11.5 percent from 
2022. That is a decrease in 600,000 head in 1 year. It is 
double that of Nebraska, the State with the second largest 
decrease in cattle. It is important to remember that this 
number reflects all cattle, including the cow herd, replacement 
heifers, stockers, and feedlot cattle. The decrease in the 
number of cows in Oklahoma alone was 140,000 head, again, the 
largest decrease of any State in the Nation.
    While these numbers alone are staggering, when one begins 
to think of the negative implications the situation absolutely 
becomes overwhelming. Oklahoma is a beef cow State. Much of our 
rural economy is dependent upon the cow. Every year ranchers 
wean and sell their calves, which represents the heart of the 
economic engine in rural Oklahoma. With fewer calves to sell, 
that means fewer dollars generated. But worse, not only are 
there fewer calves, there are also fewer cattlemen and women.
    The struggles of drought are exacerbated by high input cost 
including fuel, feed, and other supplies. All these negative 
impacts have caused some ranchers to sell their entire herd, 
and many have indicated that they won't restock anytime soon, 
if at all. Fewer cows also means that fewer bulls are needed. 
Seed stock operations, like our host today, Express Ranches, 
depend upon a robust bull market driven by cow calf producers 
with plenty of cows.
    Currently, the cattle market is strong. For the last week 
of February, 600-pound calves selling at the Oklahoma National 
Stockyards were bringing $200 to $215 per hundred weight. This 
makes sense though given a drastic reduction in the cattle 
supply. But high prices of something that I don't have many of, 
or any of, doesn't help me economically. Remember, we have 
140,000 less cows. That means 140,000 less calves to sell.
    Federal government involvement in livestock production does 
have a positive side. The farm bill of 2018 signaled a major 
turning point for animal agriculture in the U.S. That important 
piece of legislation enshrined permanently many of the programs 
that have directly benefited livestock producers, specifically 
in times of hardship. Examples include the Livestock Indemnity 
Program, the Emergency Livestock Assistance Program, Emergency 
Relief Program, and the Livestock Forage Disaster Program, just 
to name a few.
    The total disaster payments for program year 2022 in these 
categories alone in Oklahoma are $4.6 million and rising. Let 
me be very clear, these programs are vital and important to 
livestock producers, and they must be continued in the 2023 
farm bill.
    The negative side of the story deals with the overreaching 
regulatory agenda that proposes new and debilitating burdens 
that will undercut our livestock business. Examples include the 
EPA's new waters of the U.S., or WOTUS, rule issued just a 
couple of months ago.
    While EPA did recognize ponds and watering holes, the new 
rule goes backward to regulate ditches and draws that seldom 
see water and certainly not in times of drought. The new WOTUS 
rule ignores the great work that animal agriculture has done to 
preserve and promote a positive impact on our environment. 
Modern poultry, swine, and cattle operations have adopted so 
many new and emerging technologies that have provided 
substantial benefits in decreasing water usage and positively 
managing manure as fertilizer.
    Here in Oklahoma, the Endangered Species Act has been 
employed by administration's U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to 
the detriment of cattle grazers in western Oklahoma. Recently, 
the service issued a threatened and endangered listing for the 
Lesser Prairie Chicken requiring ranchers to seek an approved 
grazing permit--excuse me, plan for their own ranches. Once 
again, the great work ranchers have done to improve and 
maintain wildlife habitat was ignored, and the service provided 
no direction about who can approve a proposed grazing plan.
    Many producers, including myself, began diversifying our 
operations about a decade ago when we went through our last 
drought. By certifying a portion of our own farm in 
agritourism, investing in greenhouses and partnering with other 
fruit and vegetable growers, we were able to have an additional 
revenue stream. We also began hosting two festivals to educate 
our urban friends on where their food comes from.
    While this has been incredibly rewarding to us, regretfully 
we have had to cancel the last two events due to drought in the 
current economic State, further reducing our family income, as 
well as cutting off a source of fresh food to our customers. We 
have enough challenges with mother nature. Let's not compound 
the problem with more regulations.
    I look forward to any questions you may have. Thank you 
again for allowing me to share my perspective on the state of 
the American economy in the heartland.
    [The statement of Ms. Payne follows:]

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    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Ms. Payne.
    Mr. Brevetti, you are recognized.

    STATEMENT OF JOE BREVETTI, MANAGING MEMBER, CHARTER OAK 
                         PRODUCTION CO.

    Mr. BREVETTI. Chairman Smith, Ranking Member Neal, 
distinguished members of the committee, thank you for this 
opportunity.
    Congressman Hern, thank you for your leadership. It is an 
honor to testify before you today on behalf of Charter Oak 
Production the Petroleum Alliance of Oklahoma.
    I am Joe Brevetti, the managing member of Charter Oak 
Production, and we are a small, private oil and gas company 
here in Oklahoma City with nine employees. Since founding the 
company in 2004, our primary focus has been in the oil-rich 
areas of central to southern Oklahoma.
    I began my career in the industry as an engineer working in 
the field in South Texas. I am a board member of the Petroleum 
Alliance of Oklahoma, which represents 1,400 individual and 
member companies. I am also honored to have been appointed a 
board member of the producer funded Oklahoma Energy Resources 
Board, which restores historic well sites and provides 
classroom resources for educators from elementary through the 
college level.
    Charter Oak is one of 4,000 oil and natural gas companies 
working in Oklahoma. To put it in perspective, together we make 
up more than half of the State's private sector GDP growth. We 
are the State's largest taxpayer accounting for about one-third 
or $65 billion of Oklahoma's GDP, and generating $2.5 billion 
in tax payments to the State.
    The oil and gas industry provides employment for 200,000 
Oklahomans, 75,000 in direct jobs, and another 125,000 in 
supporting sectors. Each year, Oklahoma oil and gas producers 
pay more than $2 billion in royalties to mineral owners. These 
mineral owners are everyday people who use this money to buy 
groceries, they support their family farms and ranches, and 
just help pay their daily living expenses.
    In the past year, Charter Oak and its dedicated team of 
service companies who employ hundreds of people in the field 
drilled and completed ten wells to help meet the energy needs 
of American families. During that same year, we have seen the 
cost of our wells increase from less than $8 million each to 
over $10 million each, a 30 percent increase, and that is 
considerably more than what we are told the inflation rate is 
by the current administration.
    Companies like Charter Oak have made the U.S. not just a 
world leader today in oil and natural gas production, but we 
are also the world leader in greenhouse gas reductions, thanks 
to natural gas-powered electric generation. There is no 
company--there is no other country in this world that produces 
hydrocarbons in a manner as clean and as safe as we do here. 
Importing foreign oil production or encouraging the same is 
contrary to American principles, and it threatens our energy 
security as a nation.
    My written testimony provides color on many regulatory 
hurdles that we are dealing with today and the challenges we 
are expecting later this year. The EPA's proposed one-size-
fits-all rules for methane and waste prevention is a killer for 
small family owned companies whose marginally economic wells 
are very important to America's energy portfolio.
    The administration's permitting reforms for operations on 
Federal lands are unnecessarily complex, costly, and delay oil 
and gas projects far beyond what is reasonable. A current 
example is, last week we were informed that it would take the 
BLM Cadastral Office in Santa Fe between 2 to 3 years to review 
our river survey just so we could get to the point to nominate 
acreage into a Federal lease sale. By the way, we have already 
drilled this well, it has been delayed so long. We have altered 
the tract of this well so we didn't have to traverse Federal 
minerals, but they are still within our unit.
    On the tax front, I ask the committee to protect the 
ability of oil and gas companies of every size to deduct their 
ordinary and necessary business expenses. These intangible 
drilling costs, which are expenses like fuel, labor, and 
trucking, frequently make up 85 percent of the cost of the new 
well.
    The recent book minimum tax unfairly penalizes some of the 
larger independence from deducting such expenses. For a smaller 
independence, the punitive nature of the alternative minimum 
tax in the current Tax Code limits our deductibility of the 
IDC. We drill out of our cash flow, and the AMT severely 
restricts our ability to invest in new drilling.
    So let me conclude, we don't want special treatment; we 
just want a level playing field to encourage investment. 
Burdensome regulations, increased taxes on oil and natural gas 
hamper production and the ability of companies like ours to 
work. Unchecked inflation has hit all Americans very hard, 
including the independent oil and gas producer.
    Please address this by slowing Federal spending growth, 
balancing the Federal budget as all of us do with our personal 
and business budgets. And let's stop going down the same anti-
hydrocarbon road that is wreaking havoc in Europe. That is our 
wakeup call, America. We don't want an America like that. We 
don't need more energy--I mean, America needs more energy not 
less. More energy for America equates to more prosperity for 
all Americans, and America-produced energy is translated to 
improve American national security.
    Thank you for your time, and I am happy to address my 
questions.
    [The statement of Mr. Brevetti follows:]

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    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Brevetti.
    Ms. Kantz, you are now recognized.

STATEMENT OF SHILOH KANTZ, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, OKLAHOMA POLICY 
                           INSTITUTE

    Ms. KANTZ. Thank you, Chairman Smith and Ranking Member 
Neal and members of the Ways and Means Committee. I am very 
honored and thank you for the opportunity to submit testimony 
on the topic in what ways can the Federal government make the 
economy work for Oklahomans.
    My name is Shiloh Kantz, and I am the executive director of 
Oklahoma Policy Institute, or OK Policy as we are informally 
known. We are a nonprofit, nonpartisan public policy think 
tank.
    While COVID-19 laid bare economic vulnerability in 
Oklahoma, these problems were not new. Oklahoma's poverty rate 
is consistently among the highest. Even pre-pandemic, one in 
seven Oklahomans, including one in five children, lived in 
poverty. In 2018, one in four Oklahoma jobs were in occupations 
with a medium wage below the poverty line for a family of four.
    Our poverty rates have barely budged over the last decade. 
Federal actions during the pandemic made a real difference. It 
is a shame those interventions were not made permanent. 460,000 
Oklahoma households, including 816 children living in those 
households, received the expanded child tax credit. The credit 
lifted an additional 59,000 Oklahoma children out of poverty. 
That money was spent wisely on food, utilities, clothing, rent, 
and transportation, likely minimizing the trauma to our 
children. Now, 276,000 Oklahoma children are losing out on that 
full credit.
    The child and dependent care tax credit expansion helped 
our working families secure childcare to continue their 
employment. Qualifying Oklahoma families got back up to half of 
what they spent on childcare that year. For some households, 
that is a game changer. Expansion of the earned income tax 
credit meant there was a brief moment when Oklahoma's childless 
workers received targeted relief. The expansion tripled the 
EITC for childless adults and waved the usual age limits and 
reached an estimated 229,000 childless workers in Oklahoma. It 
too lapsed at year end.
    So where do low-income Oklahomans need support? At work. I 
think the testimony we have heard here definitely addresses 
that as well. Some Oklahoma workers are covered by the Family 
and Medical Leave Act, the FMLA protections, but they can't 
afford to take unpaid leave. Only one in 20 of the bottom 10 
percent of earners have paid leave. Just one in five workers 
have access to paid leave, and those are mostly high-income 
earners.
    The impact these numbers have on Oklahoma's families are 
real. I can't take off if my kid is sick if I don't have unpaid 
leave. More than half of Oklahomans, including 68 percent of 
rural Oklahomans are in a childcare desert, either no providers 
within their ZIP code or there are too few slots. This number 
just really hits me hard, because I have got three kids at home 
too. In recent years, the number of childcare facilities has 
fallen by two-thirds, from 6,000 to 2,300.
    Housing was an issue before the pandemic. Oklahoma's two 
largest metros were the Nation's top 20 for eviction rates per 
capita. Emergency rental assistance during the pandemic helped, 
but it also lapsed. Today, more than two in five Oklahomans 
working full time can't afford a two bedroom rental. An 
Oklahoma worker needs to earn $16.61 per hour to afford that 
two bedroom rental; but 17 of the most common 30 professions in 
Oklahoma, including teachers assistants, home health aides, and 
customer service representatives, pay less than that.
    So what has helped our workforce? Two major programs 
brought targeted relief, including Unemployment Insurance and 
Medicaid expansion. When the pandemic hit, Oklahoma saw more 
unemployment claims in March 2020 than it did in 2009 at the 
Great Recession's peak.
    While some fraudulent unemployment claims were made, 
including some to us, those claims were investigated and 
determined ineligible for payment. The State's Unemployment 
Insurance did what it was created to do in that unprecedented 
time: Assist Oklahomans in their time of need.
    And in the summer of 2020, Oklahomans passed Medicaid 
expansion through a ballot initiative. It has been an 
unequivocal success. In January, 358,155 working age adults 
were enrolled in Medicaid expansion. Because of Medicaid 
expansion, Oklahomans exiting incarceration will get insurance 
before returning to their communities. Tribal health systems 
are more solvent and record levels of children are insured.
    I know if we prioritize our communal why, improving the 
lives of all Oklahomans, we can find compromise across 
political divides. Thank you for the time to be here, and I 
look forward to your questions.
    [The statement of Ms. Kantz follows:]

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    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Ms. Kantz.
    And I want to thank all of our witnesses for your excellent 
testimony and for--once again, thank you for taking time out of 
your busy schedule, for being here.
    We will now proceed to the question and answer session, and 
I will begin first. I know that my colleagues are eager for the 
opportunity to ask a number of more specific questions as we 
hear from you all about how the policies coming out of 
Washington have impacted your lives here in the heartland. So I 
will keep my questions to just one, but I will ask each of you 
all to respond to it.
    Under President Trump, one of the key changes this 
committee made for working American families was to double the 
amount folks can deduct from their income each year and to 
lower their Federal tax bill. Those who are benefiting the most 
from that change are median-income households, which is about 
$60,000 per year right here in Oklahoma.
    As life has become more expensive for all Americans over 
the last 2 years, we are seeing why deducting more from income 
makes sense, because more and more family budgets is having to 
be used for so many basic needs just to get by. And when 
President Biden releases his budget on Thursday, we will again 
see that he wants this relief from Federal taxes for American 
families to expire.
    I want you each to answer this question through the 
perspective of your customers, your suppliers, your neighbors 
and friends. In the midst of a 40-year high spike in the cost 
of living, what would it mean for them if this committee 
further reduced their yearly tax burden to give American 
families an extra couple hundred dollars in their pocket each 
year right now?
    Mr. Jackson, why don't we start with you and go down the 
line.
    Mr. JACKSON. Chairman Smith, I can tell you that reducing 
the taxes for a small business would greatly help us. Was that 
your question as far as--could you repeat that, please?
    Chairman SMITH. So in the taxes that were cut in 2017, it 
was doubling of the standard deduction for folks who don't 
itemize, and so this affected over 80 percent of Americans. So 
most of your customers would probably be in the standard 
deduction. That will expire; in fact, in the President's budget 
on Thursday, he will outline for it to expire. Do you think 
that it will help your customers, your suppliers, if we would 
actually increase the deduction so that they would save more on 
their taxes?
    Mr. JACKSON. I think further reducing taxes would 
definitely be a great thing. And as a small business owner, I 
can tell you that any money saved is reinvested in our 
business. And how early on we are, it is a struggle to make 
sure, like I mentioned in my testimony, to have the cash flow 
to make sure that we can meet payroll, and then beyond that, 
offer benefits for people who have been with for an extended 
period of time, paid time off, and healthcare, things like 
that. So the more we can receive in terms of help in making our 
life easier and paying less taxes, the more we can do for our 
employees.
    Chairman SMITH. From a business perspective, a small 
business perspective, what is the tax advantage that has helped 
your small company the most?
    Mr. JACKSON. I would say, the number one thing was the 
payroll tax credit early on that helped fund us as we cycle 
through so many employees early on. We have retained about 25 
percent of those folks that started with us in the beginning, 
and so that was the greatest benefit for us to help us meet our 
obligations early on as we had to operate with cash as an early 
business.
    Chairman SMITH. Perfect.
    Mr. Mills.
    Mr. MILLS. I would concur with really pretty much 
everything he said. You know, I think more about my employees 
than myself because they are really the ones that do the work. 
I just kind of guide them. So, you know, they are definitely 
impacted everyday by, you know, the taxes they have to pay. We 
are burdened, of course, with having to continually pay more 
and more and more just to keep our employees. And as a small 
company, we compete against most of the big companies and 
especially in the oil field. I mean, I make drilling tools and 
bits, but it is not for oil. It is just shallow drilling, like 
water and things.
    And so--but we have to compete. We have to pay those same 
benefits, healthcare, you know, so there is a huge burden on 
myself as a small business. But I think it would be a mistake 
to take away those taxes, you know, breaks for especially just 
the average worker. With inflation today, you know, it is 
accelerated so much that it is a huge benefit.
    And I agree with the--I have to tell you, I have never 
taken any Federal funds ever in my--none of our generations 
have. We have always just been on our own. You know, there was 
no bailouts or--we are just not in that industry. And that 
payroll protection program was a huge shot in the arm at the 
right time, and it allowed us to retain all of our employees 
and continue to prosper and grow with a good base.
    So that is one of the few really bailouts that we have had 
the opportunity to work with, and I thank Congress for that at 
the perfect time. So it did work. But I would think this would 
be a very bad time to take away anymore tax breaks for 
especially the average worker.
    Chairman SMITH. Thanks, Mr. Mills.
    Ms. Payne.
    Ms. PAYNE. I think you will see the panel mirror the 
responses all the way down the line here. I guess, from my 
perspective though, anytime that hardworking Americans can keep 
more money in their pocket we should give them that 
opportunity, especially in these uncertain times that we are 
in. A lot of my neighbors are not only farmers and ranchers, 
but they have an off farm job because they have to.
    But as things get tighter from in the ag sector and all of 
us, the more money--Grandpa always said, if you want to double 
your money, you know, fold it in half and put it in your 
pocket. I think those days are over. But that would be where I 
am coming from with it.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Ms. Payne.
    Mr. Brevetti.
    Mr. BREVETTI. Well, Chairman Smith, I am having a hard time 
thinking of any country that tax their way to prosperity, so 
lower taxes are certainly better for all. That rising tide 
would lift all boats.
    Specifically to your comment about the removal of the 
standard deduction, I think of all of the workers in the field, 
the dozens and dozens of people who work on our wells and 
whether they are driving saltwater trucks, whether they are 
building a fence or working on a drilling rig or a frat crew, 
they are not itemizing deductions. They depend upon that 
standard deduction. I think that is very critical for working-
class Americans, and I would certainly hate to see that lapse.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Brevetti.
    Ms. Kantz.
    Ms. KANTZ. Thank you, Chairman.
    I do believe that targeted relief is the way to go. I 
think, we firmly believe--we hear a lot of working Americans, 
working Oklahomans. We truly feel that sweeping--and I truly 
feel that sweeping--maybe the Tax Code isn't the place unless 
it is targeted tax credits like we spoke about, about the child 
tax credit and child dependent care tax credit. The income tax, 
I think, from my history, has less impact immediately on the 
people who need it the most.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you.
    Mr. Neal, you are now recognized for questions.
    Mr. NEAL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thanks to our witnesses for your superb testimony.
    I was reminded as a supporter, even though I come from a 
highly urbanized State, I have been a consistent supporter of 
the farm bill. And part of the reason for that is it is what 
the farmlands of the country produce for urban America. But it 
is also a reminder of how Congress once cooperated on many of 
those issues. Two champions of that substantial initiative were 
Bob Dole and George McGovern, who both had shared a common 
World War II experience with heroism, the two of them. And I 
think that these conversations that we have about these sorts 
of initiatives could be a lot less hostile than they have 
become. And trying to find this common purpose and common 
ground is really important.
    So let me go to Ms. Kantz for a moment. The Affordable Care 
Act has really been a success. 20 million more Americans have 
health insurance, and insurance is based on risk and the 
sharing of risk. One of the issues that has always troubled 
many of us has been those States that did not expand Medicaid. 
And I want to congratulate Oklahoma for expanding Medicaid, to 
make sure that those at the lower end of the economic spectrum 
have an opportunity to receive healthcare in an earlier stage 
of life. It is a good investment in good healthcare.
    So the results that you've had, Ms. Kantz, here in Oklahoma 
have really been positive. Could you briefly talk about how 
important this step was in benefiting families across Oklahoma?
    Ms. KANTZ. Absolutely. Thank you, Ranking Member Neal. We 
estimated in July 2022 that Oklahoma's uninsured rate had 
dropped below 10 percent due to the combination of Medicaid 
expansion and the public health emergency's continuous coverage 
requirement. In addition to reaching Oklahomans who were in 
what we called the coverage crater, formally unable to access 
either Medicaid or subsidized marketplace coverage, expansion 
has reached kids who were formally eligible but whose parents 
likely didn't know it.
    In 2022, Oklahoma's child uninsured rate reached its lowest 
rate ever. Because of Medicaid expansion, Oklahomans can expect 
stronger hospitals moving forward as hospitals in States that 
have expanded Medicaid are 84 percent less likely to close than 
hospitals in non-expansion States. Based on other States' 
experiences, Oklahoma's hospitals can expect to see less, 
uncompensated care, increased Medicaid revenue, and better 
financial margins.
    Roger Knak is the CEO of Fairview Regional Hospital and a 
member of my board. Medicaid expansion has allowed his hospital 
to expand. And a few years ago, his hospital nearly went out of 
business because it couldn't afford to keep the lights on.
    We anticipate that Medicaid expansion will have helped our 
workers keep working. It is hard to tease that information out 
right now given noise of the pandemic and the data, but other 
expansion States have found that expansion helped people 
without a job get one and helped people with a job stay in that 
job. We are no longer tying healthcare to an employer. We are 
all better able to show up at work and at home when we can see 
a doctor and fill a prescription.
    In terms of our state budget, we have every expectation the 
expansion will at least break even or save Oklahoma money, 
because that is the experience every other expansion State has 
had. Medicaid on the chopping block means people's lives on the 
chopping block. It is whether a parent can see a doctor and 
fill a prescription. It is whether the kids with disabilities 
can see a specialist. My own daughter sees a specialist. We 
have to drive an hour and a half to see a specialist because 
there is no other specialist in Oklahoma providing care that 
she needs.
    So for us, before Oklahoma was known for having the most 
successful Medicaid expansion coming out of State question, 
before we were known for leading the country in criminal 
justice reform, we were the State with the chronic budget 
shortfalls. We had nine revenue failures between 2000 and 2020. 
So we need Medicaid. We want Medicaid in Oklahoma, and our 
families need Medicaid. We shouldn't have to decide between 
going to the doctor and paying rent.
    Mr. NEAL. Thank you. And I would just make a quick comment 
as my time is running low. Not knowing a lot about healthcare 
in Oklahoma, I can say this with some accuracy, that those 
hospitals are heavily dependent upon Medicare and Medicaid. 
Private insurance pays a very small amount now in our 
healthcare system. And the truth is that, I think you could 
say, a rule of thumb, it is close to 65 percent of the money 
that is allocated from Medicare and Medicaid.
    And the other point that I want to make about Medicaid is--
I assume we are going to be discussing it in the next few weeks 
as we see the Republican budget as well--that a reminder, 
almost $0.70 on the dollar now goes to nursing home care from 
Medicaid. It has become a middle-class entitlement which was 
not its original intention.
    So, thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Neal.
    I would like to recognize the gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. 
Hern.
    Mr. HERN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    For far too long, unelected bureaucrats and D.C. 
politicians have attacked the family run farms, energy 
producers, and manufacturing companies across the heartland, 
what some in Washington would consider to be the flyover 
country. These same politicians have never set foot in a place 
like Oklahoma, so, again, I appreciate everybody being here.
    But to see what has happened with you all, you have 
invested your lives in what you are doing, your stories, 
fourth, fifth generation, for your time in Iraq and defending 
the freedom of this country, it is great for everybody to hear 
in D.C. of what America looks like. Since many of us represent 
800,000 in our districts across America, it is great to see 
everybody, what they are doing.
    Many Oklahomans ask me, having spent 35 years in business, 
when I first started running, what surprised me the most about 
being in Washington, D.C. And my response was then the same as 
it is now, is how many people talk about things they know 
absolutely nothing about. And what you all do and our witnesses 
do when we come to these hearings is to tell us what is really 
going on with the policies that are being produced by the 
Federal government.
    You know, as we see what is happening in the last 2 years, 
as we have seen a border crisis, we see on TV every single day, 
regardless if we want--anybody wants to admit it or not, it is 
a crisis. Economic crisis, you all feel the experience of 
inflation; a labor shortage crisis, you all explain that; a 
supply chain crisis, we talk about what we want to do with 
China, but policies coming out of the administration right now 
are completely contradictory to that; energy crisis, you all 
are experiencing this every single day.
    So despite the last 2 years of what we have seen in this 
economy, this administration has chosen to stand by their tax 
and spend agenda that leaves everyday American taxpayers with 
less money in their pockets. When the Federal government spends 
more--here is a fact--the American taxpayer has less.
    Before Joe Biden took office, Oklahoma's economy was 
thriving. We saw significant sectors of our economy, from 
agricultural to manufacturing to energy, create new job 
opportunities. Now restrictive trade policies, as was 
mentioned, and unnecessary tax increases are limiting the 
ability for farmers, energy producers, and manufacturers to 
compete in the global marketplace.
    I really want to--I had a question here, but I really just 
want to say something. You know, really, as you all listen to 
what we say, and what I have experienced now being in Congress 
for 4 years, really at the heart of the whole conversation is 
with us in Washington, D.C. versus everyday Americans that we 
are out in the heartland is really trying to ascertain who does 
it better, you as the individuals creating the jobs, the 
workers trying to take care of themselves and their family, or 
Washington, D.C. that wants all of your taxpayer dollars and 
for us to decide who should get what in a targeted environment. 
And that is really the--that is the decision process at the 
highest level that is going on right now: Who can do it better, 
Washington, D.C. or everyday Americans?
    So my question is something very simple: Which is better? 
Leaving the taxpayer dollars--we have a baseline we have to 
meet. National defense, secure our Nation, as our founders 
describe, leave as much money in the--certainly in the lower 
middle-class income pockets so that they can do the basic 
needs, like supply childcare and healthcare and go find their 
right job and not depend on the Federal government.
    Our success should be measured by how many people we get 
out of poverty not how many people are on Medicaid expansion or 
other programs in the Federal government. And as a person who 
grew up on food stamps, and, you know, whether people want to 
hear this or not that may be sitting at this table, I have 
experienced it. I have experienced the way out. And my success 
story was not that I am still on welfare, is that I got off of 
welfare, and I experienced the American Dream.
    And that is what we will hear all about today is to try to 
ascertain--I do believe in the heart of heart of everybody here 
it is about my members that are here, my friends that are here, 
is that we all have the same goal in mind, is everybody become 
successful of the American Dream. It is the pathway of getting 
there that we can't agree on.
    So with that, I would love to start, Ms. Payne, you 
actually alluded to this, and I would like to hear your 
thoughts on this as well.
    Ms. PAYNE. Representative, very well said. I was about 
moved to tears over here, and this farm girl doesn't cry very 
often, but--in thinking back, whenever I was running the 
Oklahoma National Stockyards and the employees that we had 
there, it was a very diverse group. And some of the challenge--
some of it is because it is very--well, as Bryan mentioned 
earlier, it is a dirty job, so not everybody wants to do it. 
But the diversity within our staff was everything from 
obviously the red-headed female, we had Army veterans that 
worked on staff, and we also utilize a lot of justice involved.
    And seeing, especially with the justice involved, being 
able to offer them an opportunity to break their cycle, to have 
a job that meant something at the end of the day, and to be 
treated fairly, was one of the most rewarding things I have 
ever seen in my life. And that is part of this American Dream.
    It doesn't matter where you are from, it doesn't matter if 
you are a farmer, rancher, steel, oil and gas, or if you have 
ran into trouble in your past, it doesn't define who you are, 
but America gives that opportunity and that is incredible. 
Within that, you make difficult choices of what--on taxing us, 
but we need to be thinking about as we move forward how to--
everybody deserves a chance to make it. So thank you all.
    Mr. HERN. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you.
    I would like to recognize the gentleman from California, 
Mr. Thompson.
    Mr. THOMPSON. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for having 
this hearing. And thank you all for being here, the witnesses, 
and for a very gracious host.
    I just want to make a couple of comments on the opening 
statements that were made by our witnesses. The issue of 
skilled labor and the shortage of skilled labor was brought up. 
And I just want to say, you know, you are not alone. I hear 
about that every day in my District.
    Big contributors are the age of the workforce. People are 
retiring. And a big contributor to that is the lack of 
childcare, which is a huge, huge problem. So, there is 
tremendous competition for available workers, and the pay kind 
of dictates where folks are going. And I think that is an 
important thing to remember.
    And I am sorry about your herd size. I am a farmer myself. 
And I have--in California, up until just recently, we have 
been--experienced tremendous drought. So, I get it. And I have 
colleagues who have had to sell their herds because they can't 
afford the food. There is no water. And there is not a lot--as 
Mr. Lucas mentioned, this is the premier committee in Congress, 
but there is little we can do about the drought.
    In Ukraine, the war in Ukraine--Russia's illegal invasion 
of Ukraine has really hurt us as well. We are hurting for 
fertilizer. In my District, one of the crops grown are 
sunflower seeds, and we sell 50 percent of the seeds to Ukraine 
for their seeds. And that market has just gone away.
    The good news is, this is the one thing that Congress was 
able to do--and I know Oklahoma was a big recipient of this. 
You received a lot of help in regard to disaster relief. And I 
think that is important. And with the farm bill reauthorization 
coming along, you ought to be really plugged into that lane. It 
is important.
    And tariffs--you are right. Tariffs are terrible. They 
should be the last resort. We are experiencing problems from 
the last administration's imposition of tariffs. Everything 
from raw materials to nails. And it has been crippling.
    And Mr. Jackson, thank you for your service. And thanks for 
being in the best branch of the military. And thank you for 
raising the issue of mental health. It is a huge, huge issue. 
And I think it is important to note that the Democrats on this 
committee supported strongly the increase in veterans' benefits 
that are entitled--veterans are entitled to. It has helped them 
a lot. But we still have a long way to go. And I am a believer 
that we need to make a major investment in brain research so we 
can get ahead of the mental health problems rather than 
applying expensive Band-Aids along the way.
    Ms. Kantz, I would like to start--I have a couple questions 
for you. You mentioned in your testimony that one in five 
Oklahoma kids in 2019 were living in poverty. When the 
Democrats on this committee expanded the Child Tax Credit, the 
child poverty rate in Oklahoma fell from 13.1 percent to 6.9 
percent. Can you tell me what Oklahomans use their Child Tax 
Credit for? What types of things did they buy?
    Ms. KANTZ. I absolutely can. Thank you, Representative.
    Data shows that more than 90 percent of the families with 
lower incomes use their monthly payments in five major 
categories: Putting food on the table, paying utility bills, 
covering rent or mortgage payments, buying clothing, and 
covering education costs, which during the pandemic, was a new 
piece for a lot of families to overcome. And they also bought 
schoolbooks, paid credit cards. Very few, under 20 percent, put 
it into savings. And then several put it into childcare. The 
money went into Oklahomans' pockets and helped ease the burden 
of their monthly bills.
    Mr. THOMPSON. So that money is spent out across the economy 
in every city, town, and county in Oklahoma. Thank you very 
much.
    There was a lot of talk about the tax policies that the 
Republicans passed and what we should do about that. I think it 
is important to note that the centerpiece of that tax bill was 
the cut in corporate tax rates that went from 35 to 21 percent, 
a much bigger cut than the proponents even wanted.
    And so, Ms. Kantz, I was interested to know, for families 
in Oklahoma, what is more compelling, the Child Tax Credit or 
extending the corporate tax cuts?
    Ms. KANTZ. Well, I think from the testimony that we have 
heard here, that anything we can do to help our workforce is 
where we need to be investing. And that will fuel up through 
the corporate sector. So, any investment into our families, 
into our homes, into our children, to help with the trauma, to 
help with getting out of poverty. I agree with Representative 
Hern's statement that our measure of success should be how many 
people we are getting out of poverty. Every Oklahoman deserves 
the opportunity to thrive, and how are we providing that?
    Mr. THOMPSON. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, 
for your generosity with the clock.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Thompson.
    I would like to recognize the gentleman from Oklahoma.
    Mr. LUCAS. Mr. Chairman, before I begin, I would like to 
submit for the record the statement by Austin Puckett, the 
owner of Benjamin Lee Bison, a family-owned and operated bison 
range from Sayre, Oklahoma describing how soaring fertilizer, 
energy, repair, and shipping costs as well as labor shortages 
have harmed his operations.
    Chairman SMITH. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The information follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. LUCAS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Kelli, you are a constituent, so I think I can call you by 
first name. Thank you for your participation today in the 
hearing and all the work you do on behalf of cattlemen and 
women of the great state of Oklahoma.
    I have often said that the role--that I view the role of 
Congress to do things for people, not to people. In your 
written testimony, you speak about the positive impact that the 
farm bill programs have had on the cattle industry, and you 
touched on WOTUS and a number of other regulations that 
potentially harm the industry.
    Could you speak to the importance of collaboration with 
producers on the ground when it comes to crafting policy? 
Should we be asking the people who have to live with what we 
are doing?
    Ms. PAYNE. Thank you, Congressman. As a long time 
Oklahoman, I have got to brag on our delegation. I have always 
felt like we have--we can get ahold of them and we can talk to 
our elected officials on the Federal level. And whenever I ran 
the stockyards, I had an opportunity to host many of our 
federally elected officials there. They came to us. They 
understand boots on the ground. Collaboration is key.
    It is nice to be able to--it is not just talking directly 
to you all, but to have access to your staff and to understand. 
And I would encourage every member in here to spend that time. 
This is an incredible honor for us to have you all here today 
and to be able to talk to you face-to-face, but it is just 
critically important to get this kind of feedback so that you 
are not picking winners and losers.
    We are all--in reference to Representative Hern's statement 
earlier, this is the American dream. We are all in this still 
together. Let's collaborate and talk one-on-one. Let's show 
you. I am sure you didn't expect today to come in here and 
stand next to great, big Clydesdales downstairs. But this is 
what we do. And I would be happy to put any of you in the 
tractor with me.
    Mr. LUCAS. I have got one more question for you, but before 
I go to that, I want to turn to Bryan for just a moment. I 
think it was about a year and a half ago, maybe almost 2 years 
ago, you gave me a tour of the facility in Sayre. We are 
getting ready to fire up.
    For the benefit of the crowd, you and I both know State-
inspected meat in Oklahoma and federally-inspected meat, same 
safety, same quality, same everything. Explain to us why the 
Federal stamp matters. Even though it costs more, why does it 
matter?
    Mr. JACKSON. That is a great question, Congressman. The 
benefit of being USDA-inspected is there is no restrictions on 
any quantity where it can go to. It can ship between States, so 
there is no limitation. It could even be exported if we chose 
to and were licensed for that.
    Mr. LUCAS. And that matters greatly when you are moving 
your product, especially in a State where we produce so much 
beef in particular. Thank you.
    Kelly, back to you. Oklahomans--Okies, as some of us like 
to call ourselves--are very resilient people, and we have got a 
long history of responding to tough things: The Dust Bowl, the 
Great Depression, the droughts of the 1950s, the hideous 
drought of 10 years ago, that oil bust of the 1980s that turned 
much of the State upside down.
    What have producers--through all of these challenging 
times, what have producers done voluntarily to preserve and 
improve their land in order to better meet the challenges with 
weather and prolonged drought? We are not just sitting on our 
hands, right?
    Ms. PAYNE. That is correct, Congressman. And you referenced 
the Dust Bowl. We have obviously learned a lot. We learn more 
every day. We have technology in place. We just know more now 
than we ever have. So whether it was the shelter belts that 
were planted in the 1930s all the way up to current.
    My operation itself is in a river bottom. It is very sandy 
soil. We call it blow sand. And if you had been standing out 
there on Sunday, you would have had two pounds of it in your 
eyes. But we have to protect that. We, on our outfit, can run 
about 250 mama cows. I have one cow with a calf at her side as 
of this morning, and the three bulls were loaded in the 
trailer. And then I have seven fat steers to be able to put in 
the freezer here in about a year. There is nothing there. But 
we had to pull those cattle off to protect that grass. If I 
don't have grass, I can't put cattle on it.
    So we had to make that decision versus--and we can't afford 
hay. There is all kinds of sad, sad things going on. But to be 
able to put in place conservation-type practices so that we can 
be sustainable when it finally does start raining, Congressman.
    Mr. LUCAS. Bottom line, comprehensive farm bills where we 
make sure we have the ability to produce and consume are 
critically important. And in this farm bill, we have got to 
address how to make the Federal inspection available to more 
packers.
    Fair statement, Brian?
    Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.
    Mr. LUCAS. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I would like to recognize the gentlelady from California, 
Ms. Sanchez.
    Ms. SANCHEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank 
all of our witnesses for sharing your perspectives with us this 
morning.
    Not every issue raised here is under our committee's 
jurisdiction, but it is important for us to understand the 
unique challenges facing each State. And there are certainly 
differences between the communities that I represent in 
Southern California and the native rural and urban communities 
here in Oklahoma. But there is also a lot of common ground in 
terms of the challenges that our small businesses are facing, 
both in Oklahoma and in California.
    Supply chain challenges have made life difficult for 
businesses in both our States, and thankfully, in the last 
Congress, Democrats were able to work with some of our 
Republican colleagues to pass the CHIPS and the Science Act. We 
have been talking for years about the loss of supply chains and 
good-paying jobs overseas, and under the leadership of 
Congressional Democrats, we didn't mindlessly hand 
multinational corporations a massive tax cut that they didn't 
need and that they didn't ask us for. Instead, we actually 
delivered real incentives and the largest infrastructure 
investment in generations to bring those supply chains back to 
the U.S.
    I would note that all five of my Oklahoma colleagues voted 
against these critical investments in our Nation's 
infrastructure. And I guarantee working families in both our 
States share some of the same challenges trying to juggle 
childcare and eldercare, medical expenses, and the paid time 
off to deal with unexpected emergencies.
    Once again, Democrats acted to take the pressure off of 
working families. Under the American Rescue Plan, we expanded 
the Child Tax Credit and the Child and Dependent Care Tax 
Credit. I heard from countless constituents that the advanced 
monthly Child Tax Credit payments finally gave them the 
breathing room that they needed. And we didn't stop there. 
Under the Inflation Reduction Act, Democrats delivered reform 
to control the cost of prescription drugs, like capping the 
cost of insulin at $35 a month. And in my State, most workers 
can count on guaranteed paid leave. Of course, there are still 
gaps in paid leave, and the expansion of the Child Tax Credit 
sadly was only temporary.
    But we know that these are policies that make a meaningful 
difference for working families. These social programs are not 
designed to avoid work. They just mean that workers don't have 
to make those impossible choices between putting food on the 
table and caring for their loved ones. Democrats delivered 
critical steps to supporting working families, and we can't 
stop now.
    Ms. Kantz, could you please explain the economic impact 
that a lack of affordable childcare has on families throughout 
the State? And I am particularly interested in that because I 
am a working mother, and I have had those struggles. They are 
very real.
    Ms. KANTZ. Yes. Thank you, Representative. And I also am a 
working mother of three and was actually pregnant with my third 
child when I started this position. And if it had not been for 
my former boss, David Blatt, saying bring your kid to work with 
you, I would not still be sitting in this seat. So I can 
definitely speak to it.
    I think the most immediate impact is the lack of affordable 
childcare that--the most immediate impact the lack of 
affordable childcare has is the access to the workforce. It is 
going to keep parents home. The HHS guideline is 7 percent of 
your income should be paid towards childcare. I think, right 
now, it is about 16 percent for Oklahoman families. That is 
huge if you have got two minimum wage earners working to head 
up a household.
    Then you get into a situation where you have to decide 
between work and safety for your kid. Do I have affordable 
childcare, or do I have cheap childcare that might not be as 
safe for my child?
    Ms. SANCHEZ. I am sorry. I don't mean to interrupt you. But 
there is a statistic that six million women left the workforce 
during the pandemic because they were primary caregivers either 
to young children, aging parents, disabled children. We are not 
seeing that number of women reenter the workforce. And what do 
you think that that is due to?
    Ms. KANTZ. I think it is that the majority of the people 
who stay home and are choosing to stay home in the workforce 
don't have a choice. They can't--they might not have a parent 
at home who can help. They might not have a boss who says, 
bring your kid to work. And I really do feel that it negatively 
impacts women. The majority is women, of caregivers. They are 
even impacted on their future employment opportunities because 
there is a gap in their resume now.
    Ms. SANCHEZ. So what steps should Congress be taking to 
ensure that all working class families in Oklahoma have access 
to quality and affordable childcare?
    Ms. KANTZ. One of the things I think that was key to the 
Child Tax Credit was the ability to receive the timing of the 
payments. They were spread out. They were better able to manage 
their money. They were better able to plan. There was some 
consistency. It wasn't a one-time windfall to their income.
    Ms. SANCHEZ. Thank you. I appreciate it.
    My time is running short, but I just wanted to make one 
last comment, which is, an earlier colleague mentioned real 
Americans in the heartland. And I want to assure people that 
the people I represent in my District are no less real 
Americans. They are no less resilient. They are no less 
hardworking towards trying to achieve that American dream. And 
with that, I will yield back.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Ms. Sanchez. We are all great 
Americans. Hardworking, great Americans.
    Mr. LUCAS. And there is a lot of descendants of Okies in 
California, too.
    Chairman SMITH. Consistent with committee practice, we will 
now recognize members on a two-to-one ratio.
    I recognize the gentleman from Nebraska, Mr. Smith.
    Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Certainly, 
thank you to our witnesses. I think a great perspective, a 
varying perspective shared among our witnesses.
    As a representative of Nebraska and a huge agriculture 
District, it has been great to be here in an ag area of our 
country where we get to help feed the world. I think that is a 
task that sometimes we take for granted ourselves with the 
production here in America. But with the fact that the world is 
relying on us in so many ways, I think it is important that we 
get it right.
    If we look at the employee shortage, the worker shortage, 
how that triggers the supply chain disruptions crisis, the 
housing crisis, there are so many things we really need to talk 
about, and obviously there is a diverse perspective here on 
this at this table.
    And I hope that we, as the American people and the 
representatives, those of us more specifically, can have the 
discussions that we need to have, where we can discuss the 
economic needs of a country where the--the Broad Base Tax 
Relief of 2017 was great for our economy, great for wages, 
great for productivity, so that individual workers could 
produce more because the world needs more. The growing 
population around the world needs to eat, certainly, and we 
need to be prepared for that.
    I grow concerned that government payments are discussed in 
a context without talking about inflation. And if you look at 
2020, as painful as it was, I think it is important that we 
look at that data because, in the spring of 2020, with the 
onset of COVID, the economy tanked. Unemployment spiked. 
Congress got involved on a bipartisan basis. Not in a perfect 
way. It would be very interesting to litigate all of that. We 
don't have the time to do that today. But Congress got involved 
twice, basically, in 2020, in a bipartisan fashion.
    By the end of 2020, the GDP was back to about even from 
before the thriving economy that we had heading into COVID. So 
a new administration came into the White House and insisted on 
increasing and extending government payments. The President was 
warned that it would trigger inflation. He dismissed that. He 
pushed it anyway.
    And so, you know--and other comments that have been made 
across our economy, across our country, based on the type of 
industry that you are involved in. I think the President thinks 
less of people who are involved in the oil and gas industry, 
and perhaps some other industries as well. And I hope that, 
again, we can have the discussions we need to have, the debates 
that we need to have. We shouldn't shy away from disagreement 
either. Our country is founded on disagreement. But when you 
look at the policies that need the discussion, I hope that we 
can do that moving forward.
    Mr. Jackson, my colleague--I believe your congressman--he 
stole some of my questions relating to inspection. But I know 
that it is important, especially as it relates to the Federal 
Government, what you do. I would like anyone on the panel here 
to discuss what you have done most recently to address the 
worker shortage that is so acute.
    Maybe, Mr. Jackson, if you want to start with that. What 
you have done most recently to attract more employees.
    Mr. JACKSON. One of our biggest challenges is just, being 
in a small community having a small population, it is very hard 
to find people with those skill sets. Most people that walk in 
the door, we have to train them from the ground up. And so any 
way we can incentivize people looking under a rock, wherever we 
found people to work, the people who want to show up every day, 
that is what it has taken.
    So we have hired the whole gambit of different types of 
people that you could imagine. Some of my best employees have 
been former felons. And so they have had challenges, as 
veterans do sometimes, in readjusting to society. But we have 
had challenges with just keeping those people. But the number 
one thing we have done is just searching for them and providing 
the best opportunity that we can, a healthy environment that is 
positive, and then not focusing on just the retaining, but also 
on the growth aspect. How to help them in their work-life 
balance and help them improve their lives for themselves and 
their families.
    Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. Anyone else? Briefly. I apologize. 
My time is expired, and I know time is short.
    Chairman SMITH. Go ahead, Mr.----
    Mr. SMITH of Nebraska. I will defer to the chairman.
    Chairman SMITH. Yeah. You were going to say something, Mr. 
Mills?
    Mr. MILLS. Well, you know, to me, the workforce--like I 
said, I have been involved about 22 years. And, you know, we 
have got two fronts that we have got to work on the hardest. 
One is preparing our youth for a successful career. That is our 
future. For now, it is getting people to come back to work. And 
I know healthcare--I mean--I am sorry. Childcare has been an 
issue for a lot of people. And, you know, they experience 
workforce issues as well. That is why there is so many, you 
know, less daycare facilities open because they can't find 
workers.
    You know, so we all are experiencing this. It is a huge 
issue. And so, you know, what is it going to take to 
incentivize people to come back to work and not stay at home? 
You know, everything changed with COVID. People got used to 
staying home. They were like, hey, I kind of like this. You 
know, I got my office here, and I can take care of my kids, and 
I can, you know, have all this free time, and I can work at 
night or whatever. And there are a lot of people that don't 
want to come back just because of that.
    My business won't allow that to happen. I have to have 
people in my shop every day to work. And it is harder and 
harder to find those skilled workers. But, you know, a lot of 
it is encouraging kids to actually seek a career and preparing 
them for a career. And we do a lot of great things at 
Workforce. We have got the individualized career and academic 
plan here in Oklahoma and many other States that is actually 
helping kids kind of develop a future for deciding what they 
want to do after graduation. But those are issues that we deal 
with. So I will stop.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Mills.
    I would like to recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, 
Mr. Kelly.
    Mr. KELLY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for 
holding this hearing. I think it is really great that we get 
out of Washington, D.C. and actually get out into the country.
    And look, I realize we are all Americans. It doesn't matter 
where you live or where you work or where you raise your 
children or anything else. Yes. That is true. That is true. We 
are all Americans. I get it. But until you come here, you come 
to a place where things actually have to take place as opposed 
to creating a policy that may or may not work with one 
exception that it will cost you a lot of money.
    I want to hear more from all of you because the challenges 
you are facing--I am in the automobile business. The number one 
challenge we face now is finding talent. Not finding customers, 
but finding talent. How do you take care of those people who 
buy an automobile from you and bring it back because they need 
it serviced? Well, you better have a tech. Right?
    And where I live, people make a habit of hitting deer. And 
only because, during the season, when they are riding, a buck 
will go across any highway to get to a doe no matter what is 
coming. But we can't find people to fix cars anymore. We can't 
find people to do almost anything anymore.
    So when I talk to businesspeople and businessowners--and I 
want to tell you, the number one thing that I worry about in my 
business is debt. Unserviceable debt is especially scary. I do 
believe that, at some point in this current economy, this wave 
is going to crest, and it is going to fall. And when it falls, 
there are a lot of people that are going to fall with it 
because of unsustainable debt.
    Just to give you an example, last year, we brought in $5.0 
trillion in tax revenue. Incredible. Incredible revenue. But we 
went on to spend $6.5 trillion. So if we talk kitchen table 
economics, that means a family making $50,000 goes out and 
spends $65,000 and feels pretty good about itself until the 
bill comes due.
    Now, I don't know how you all handle what you have coming. 
I don't know how we are going to handle what the 250 people we 
pay every two weeks when we reach that point where the revenue 
doesn't match the outgo. Reckless, reckless spending in 
Washington, D.C. At the time, people thought this was great. It 
was a windfall for a lot. It wasn't. It was just a deepening 
tax burden.
    So each of you, because there is 2 and a half minutes left, 
the number one challenge you face other than talent. I don't 
know where you are on the debt side of this and how much of it 
worries you. I spend most of my nights waking up trying to 
figure out what is going to happen next.
    So, Mr. Jackson, starting with you. And you have done an 
incredible job. You hired somebody to go out and figure out how 
to hire other people. Where is the talent, and how do we get 
it?
    Mr. JACKSON. So I guess the best way to answer that 
question is just, it has taken us just doing whatever it took 
to try to stay ahead of the lagging accounts receivable that we 
face as a small business. And so our biggest challenge is the 
cash flow and being able to meet those obligations.
    So having access to operating lines and things like that is 
tough for a small business. But we are experiencing that no 
matter what small business that you are. So I would say that 
cash flow is our number one concern as a small business and how 
to meet those obligations.
    Mr. KELLY. Mr. Mills.
    Mr. MILLS. I agree with that. You know, in this economy, 
cash is key. And my dad taught me that. It is true. Having good 
credit and having cash flow. That is how we have survived 
through all these 115 years in business, is taking care of 
business like that, and providing good customer service and a 
quality product.
    But right now, my greatest concern is that cash flow. 
Again, with the supply chain, in order for me to control the 
escalating prices that still continue today is I have to go out 
and buy more inventory, outlay more cash. That money is just 
sitting there on the shelf in the yard. And, you know, you have 
got to pay for that. That gives you less money to go out and 
develop new product, buy equipment, hire more people. It is a 
negative impact on us.
    And so we are just like everyone else. We see this possible 
recession coming. Myself and my customers, we are all kind of 
holding back, being a little conservative, not buying quite as 
much, because when this thing does crash at some point--it has 
got to crash a little bit--we don't get caught. We want to stay 
in business. And so that is our greatest concern right now. 
Cash flow probably will be the same for everyone.
    Mr. KELLY. Ms. Payne.
    Ms. PAYNE. Thank you. Something that I think needs to be 
considered from the farming and ranching perspective is 
whenever you are--during calving season, say your cows are 
calving out in the spring, you are planning. You are looking 
way, way down the line for your next paycheck.
    In the cattle industry specifically, that calf crop is one 
time. So it is great that those calves may bring 70,000, 
100,000. That is your paycheck for the year, and it is way on 
down the line. So it is a little bit different thought process 
from my perspective.
    Mr. KELLY. Yeah. That is future inventory.
    Ms. PAYNE. Yes.
    Mr. KELLY. Mr. Brevetti.
    Mr. BREVETTI. Well, you mentioned about the lack of skilled 
workers, and that affects all of us. And it is--it is probably 
worth pointing out that you can get a loan to go achieve a 
degree that you may not be able to find a job in, yet how do 
you fund someone to become a welder? A truck driver? We have a 
part ownership in a service company, and crane operators are 
very difficult to find. And we are willing to put them through 
a training class.
    At the OERB, the Oklahoma Energy Resources Board that I am 
on the board, we have programs that we believe address this by 
starting with elementary education through middle school, high 
school, college. We try to get out volunteers in the classrooms 
to encourage people what we do in our industry so that they 
will want to work in it.
    And then on a college level, we provide scholarships along 
with other groups here in the State such as the local Society 
of Petroleum Engineers chapter and the API. We feel that, this 
way, we can bring more people in. But we still do need to do 
more.
    Chairman SMITH. I am sorry.
    Mr. KELLY. We have run out of time. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman. Also, Express Clydesdales, this is a great place for 
us to come today. Thank you so much. It is a beautiful 
location. And it is really good to get out of Washington and 
get around real people who really have to produce every single 
penny that they spend in addition to the taxes that they pay. 
So thank you all so much, and God bless.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Kelly.
    I do want to remind our friends in the audience as well, we 
have clipboards right here for you to submit anything to the 
record of information that you think we should know about, 
issues that we are facing in the state of the current economy, 
and also solutions that you think we should look at.
    I would love to recognize the gentlelady from Alabama, Ms. 
Sewell.
    Ms. SEWELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank our 
witnesses for being here today and sharing your stories and 
your perspectives.
    I represent Alabama, and I can close my eyes and listen to 
all of you speak and know that the folks that I represent share 
many of your concerns. This hearing is about the state of the 
American economy. Not the Democratic economy. Not the 
Republican economy. It is the American economy. And you all 
have reinforced that. It is about making sure that all of us 
are vested. All of us are vested in the success of this great 
country that we live in.
    And that irrespective of your wealth, your race, your 
gender, we all want to achieve the American dream. We may 
differ on how we get there, but I think all of us want to 
achieve the American dream.
    You know, this month marks the third anniversary of the 
COVID-19 break out. I think all of us know that it was a global 
pandemic. It was not a hoax. A million people died. Folks in my 
District that were of color who had chronic diseases died 
disproportionately more often than others. But a million 
Americans died.
    And I think that no committee had a bigger impact on trying 
to mitigate the downturn in the economy than the Ways and Means 
Committee. And I am very proud of the fact that we were able, 
if only for 1 year, to give a fully refundable Child Tax 
Credit.
    And, Ms. Kantz, I want you to talk a little bit about that. 
I can tell you from the perspective of my constituents, I had 
lots and lots of fathers, not just mommies, telling me how 
important it was for that income support, especially during 
that vital time. And it did lift people out of poverty. In my 
District alone, it lifted 30 percent of the children out of 
poverty for that 1 year. All because it was an increase in the 
amount that was given. And as you rightly pointed out, it was 
given on a monthly basis, not a one-time basis.
    And so, can you talk to me a little bit about how that 
affected your community? And if you could also talk to us about 
how it affected the members of the Cherokee Nation and how 
income support was vitally important during that time. And tell 
us--because we came out of this pandemic stronger. This 
economy--you know, 12 million jobs were created in the last 2 
years. But, I mean, we obviously have things to do. But it is 
about balance to approach and making sure that employer and 
employee alike are prospering in this economy.
    Ms. KANTZ. Thank you, Representative Sewell. As a member of 
the--as a citizen of the Cherokee Nation, I definitely applaud 
all the work that the Tribes have done. There are 38 federally-
recognized Tribes in Oklahoma. And they have truly been a 
beacon of how to care for your citizens. They have definitely 
stepped up and used the resources. And Cherokee Nation alone 
has a 3 billion-dollar economic impact on Oklahoma. So a very 
proud citizen here.
    But I definitely think that the Federal Government would do 
well to honor the sovereignty of those Nations and speak with 
them and have the table equal for the Nations to speak to their 
citizens needs individually and not as a whole.
    And as far as the Child Tax Credit, not everybody has a 
parent who can watch their kid. Not everyone can afford to work 
fewer hours. Not everyone works 9:00 to 5:00 hours. How many 
childcare systems do you know that are set up to support night 
shifts? Our hospital workers, our doctors, where are they 
finding their childcare?
    If they don't have a community--you know, we talk about 
having boots and pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps. I 
wasn't born into a family that had boots. We got hand-me-down 
boots. And we had a community in a village around us that 
helped with those boots. What are we doing in Oklahoma? What 
are we doing in America to ensure that we are sharing boots? 
Right?
    We really need to show up for the working class, our middle 
class. We have heard about the wealth gap. It is real. It is 
real. It is greater than it has ever been in the history of the 
United States. And we really do need to show up for our working 
class families.
    Ms. SEWELL. You know, the other thing that you mentioned 
that I thought was really poignant, is that my State did not 
expand Medicaid. And frankly, we have seen lots of rural 
hospitals close because we didn't expand Medicaid. And I think 
that when you are going through a global health crisis, to not 
have health insurance, to not be able to provide for yourself 
and your family, just further undergirds what you were saying.
    Mr. Chairman, I just want to conclude by just making a 
comment and observation. We on the Ways and Means Committee, 
because we have tax and trade and healthcare in our 
jurisdiction, can use our tax code to really help working 
families and entrepreneurs in small businesses alike--we would 
do well to remember that we are all interdependent. What 
happens to one of us definitely does affect all of us. And so 
thank you. With that, I want to, again, thank our witnesses for 
their testimony.
    Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentlelady.
    I recognize the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Schweikert.
    Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Look, we have a country where we are borrowing, what, 
$48,000 every second. And you will actually hear both sides 
care. One side believes in subsidization. One side believes in 
incentives. But we are all, in many ways, trying to get to the 
same goal.
    And forgive me, but in listening, did anyone actually hear 
the obvious--at least one of the key obvious problems? I have, 
you know, four over here saying you are desperate to find 
labor. You know, people that will show up and work. And someone 
that is concerned about poverty. I was just looking up some of 
the data for your state, but it is true in my State of Arizona. 
And it is uncomfortable to talk about, but we got to--we are 
going to have to deal with it. Young males are dramatically 
underperforming showing up in the economy. Something is going 
on out there where they are entering universities in similar 
numbers and graduating in many universities at half the rate, 
or they are just not showing up to work. What is honestly going 
on in our society?
    And for those of you in the oil patch, you know, and the 
meat processing, let's be honest. You don't need someone with a 
university degree. You just need someone who shows up. If I 
have millions and millions of young males who somehow 
disappeared in our economy in the last couple years, what is 
going on?
    Mr. Jackson, your observation--I know you are in a smaller 
community. And I represent an urban-suburban District. We have 
fentanyl out of control. We have other things. What is 
happening in your communities? Why this disparity of, we have 
jobs, I don't have labor, but I also have data that says I have 
a substantial number of these young males not showing up. What 
is going on?
    Mr. Jackson. From my perspective, I think a lot of it has 
to do with people today thinking more about what they can get 
instead of what they can give. And I think we, as Americans, 
need to be reminded of--what built this country was people's 
desire to be free from tyranny. And so we have to show up to 
work. We have to roll up our sleeves and put the work in.
    Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Okay. So you see a societal issue?
    Mr. JACKSON. Yes.
    Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Mr. Mills.
    Mr. MILLS. I agree. And I think it all started with 
participation trophies. You know, everybody----
    Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Sometimes that was the only way I got a 
trophy.
    Mr. MILLS. Everybody is a winner. We don't want to hurt 
anybody's feelings. I am sorry. There are winners and losers. 
And it is okay to lose. I have lost. In business, you lose all 
the time. I don't get every quarter that I quote, you know? Oh, 
okay. We move onto the next one. And, you know, you just don't 
take it personal. But that is where it started. It is a society 
change. And it all starts from home.
    And some of this, like I said, could actually work through 
the school system for us, again, if we can get, I think, 
business engaged in helping these kids, you know, really find 
their purpose.
    Mr. SCHWEIKERT. It is--look, we were in West Virginia a 
couple weeks ago. And we have also been digging into some of 
the data in my Phoenix area. And we have a genuine problem with 
a number of young people, substance abuse, other things going 
on. I don't know if that is permeated through this part of the 
country. I mean, this is a moral imperative. You have a society 
that needs people, but then people aren't showing up.
    Ms. Payne, any theories?
    Ms. PAYNE. Representative, I think more kids ought to be 
forced to haul hay during the hot summer.
    Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Yeah, yeah. When we walked through the 
stables back there--I spent my childhood shoveling horse 
stalls. I can smell that ammonia a mile away. And I am still 
doing it.
    How about in the oil patch, what do you see?
    Mr. BREVETTI. We see a lot of the same thing. It is 
difficult to find workers. You know, we have essentially what 
we call the great crew change or the great retirement. So a lot 
of our workers got to ages where, when the oil patch slowed 
during the pandemic, they were out of work and said, well, we 
are just taking early retirement or they were forced to take 
early retirement. In the past, those workers were replaced by 
the new crop. We don't have that number----
    Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Well, we have--the baby boomers are 
retiring.
    Mr. BREVETTI. Yeah. Baby boomers are retiring. We don't 
have as many coming up. But in the past history of our country, 
we brought in immigrants on a legal basis and gave them a work 
visa. We built this country with immigrants. My grandparents 
were immigrants from Italy. We need to do more of this. Let's 
not bring fentanyl across the border. Let's bring in people 
legally who want to work.
    Mr. SCHWEIKERT. Mr. Chairman, thank you for tolerating me.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, gentleman.
    As someone who hauled a lot of hay growing up, I love that 
comment.
    The gentleman from Kansas is recognized.
    Mr. ESTES. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this 
hearing outside of the D.C. Beltway. And thank you to all our 
witnesses for being here today.
    We are just a few short hours south of my home in Wichita, 
Kansas. And it is great to have my colleagues here in the 
heartland. You know, some of the folks and the D.C. bureaucrats 
and inside on the East and West Coast call this flyover 
country. But what we have seen here today, and many of us 
already knew, is that folks in Oklahoma and Kansas and other 
States here in the middle of the country are a more vibrant, 
hardworking, dedicated, and patriotic people in America.
    Agriculture is a major industry, and it is these men and 
women who feed, fuel, and clothe our country and the world. We 
are also home to a lot of manufacturers. In fact, just up I-35 
in South Central Kansas, we call it the air capital of the 
world. Here in Oklahoma City and throughout the Midwest, 
organizations of all sizes are building planes, earth-drilling 
equipment, ag products, and more.
    In 2017, Republicans overhauled our outdated tax code to 
benefit families, small businesses, and entrepreneurs. Our goal 
was to make sure we got the economy going. And in fact, it 
worked. What we have seen as well is that we have actually 
collected more taxes.
    So in 2022, just last year, we collected over 700 billion 
more dollars in taxes than the Congressional Budget Office said 
we would have done if we had not done the Tax Cuts and Jobs 
Act. And businesses actually paid 12 percent more in 2022 than 
they would have without the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. It lowered 
the rates and ultimately got the economy going, which meant we 
collected more in taxes. And we have got the lowest 
unemployment rates, both pre-COVID as well as post-COVID, just 
because of having the economy going.
    Unfortunately, some of those provisions that were put in 
temporary place--in place temporarily are starting to expire. 
And one of those that really has had an impact on a lot of 
businesses is the median expensing of research and development 
cost. It expired last year.
    And I am working to reintroduce legislation that would help 
restore this crucial tax program so that small businesses here 
in the Midwest can continue expanding the research and 
development, creating more good-paying jobs in the United 
States. And this will help assure we have a strong economy and 
a strong America.
    Mr. Mills, can you tell us a little bit about the impacts 
you have seen of some good tax policies on your business?
    Mr. MILLS. They are absolutely critical. You know, I have 
said a long time just about to every elected official I can 
that, you know, just get out of our way and let us grow. Let us 
develop new product. We want to be a leader in the world like 
we used to be. Innovative. And here in Oklahoma, we are some of 
the most innovative people because we are resilient. And, you 
know, we know what it takes.
    But having the benefits of some tax, especially R&D, I 
mean, let's go make some new things. Let's develop. Let's be 
leaders again in expanding our economy. And get out of the way. 
Don't tax us. We are going to go out and create more jobs, 
create more taxes, to help fund and help people that need the 
help.
    You know, being just even an elected official on the local 
level, I saw where the tax dollars were going. I probably 
became a little bit more moderate when I became the mayor 
because I understood the poverty level in our communities and 
the people that really needed the help because I saw those 
agencies helping those people. So I know the need is there. But 
at the same time, you can't choke business down in order to get 
there. They are the people that are generating the jobs and the 
opportunity and the taxes.
    So let's look at this cycle. It is not very complicated. 
But those definitely have helped us. And R&D is huge. So I 
appreciate you doing that.
    Mr. ESTES. Thank you. And, you know, with a decent tax 
policy, we need to make sure we have good energy policy. I 
mean, we are suffering now from rising prices. Not just gas 
prices, but also heating a home and the impacts on businesses 
and families. And a lot of us do the bad policies coming out of 
the Biden administration to attack American energy policy.
    And in fact limiting or selling off our strategic reserve 
to countries like China. And then putting policies in place 
like marginal wells and some of those restrictions on oil 
production.
    Mr. Brevetti, I know I am running short on time here, but I 
did want to ask just a quick question about, what are the 
policies you think would be useful in the United States to 
implement to help restore and lower energy prices for American 
consumers?
    Mr. BREVETTI. Well, basically, we really need less 
regulation instead of more. Between the EPA that was mentioned 
earlier, we also have policies that have come down through 
WOTUS, the Waters of the U.S., the fish and wildlife, where, 
you know, the lesser prairie chicken and other endangered 
species--they became deaths by a thousand cuts. And this has 
become very difficult for many of us small energy producers to 
work. The more oil and natural gas we can produce, supply and 
demand, then the less it is going to be to the consumer.
    Mr. ESTES. Look, thank you.
    And thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, sir.
    I would like to recognize the gentlelady from Wisconsin, 
Ms. Moore.
    Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Thank you so much. I don't think my 
mic is on. Is it on?
    Chairman SMITH. I don't think it is on.
    Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Can I reclaim my seconds?
    I just want to thank all of you. And, Mr. Chairman, thank 
you for inviting us to this field hearing. I am from Wisconsin, 
and so I share many of the experiences and concerns that you 
Oklahomans have.
    I just want to respond briefly to something that the 
chairman said in his opening statement with regard to the 
expiration of the standard deduction. I just want the panel to 
understand that the reason that that is happening is because of 
the construction of the tax cuts through the JOBS Act. The then 
Republican majority decided to prioritize cutting taxes for 
corporations, and they put in a provision that would make it 
expire for the people. And so we'll see what happens with that.
    I wanted to know from Mr. Mills and Mr. Jackson. I really 
do respect the fact that you have kept this business going for 
115 years, Mr. Mills. That is very impressive. I am wondering, 
did you benefit from the corporate tax cuts from 35 percent to 
21 percent in trying to meet some of your needs? You waxed on 
about the inflation and the numbers of other problems that 
you--I am wondering, did you benefit from that tremendous tax 
cut?
    Mr. MILLS. You know, I saw that question coming. And I 
actually asked my bookkeeper, and he said, well, that would 
have been beneficial if we were profitable.
    Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. If what?
    Mr. MILLS. If we were profitable. So we were just really 
getting by because of the cost. So we were really operating at 
virtually a break even or slight loss. And so, unfortunately, 
we didn't get to see the benefits of that.
    Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Okay. So thank you for that. That 
is just good to know.
    You said that you hired some roustabouts. I looked that up. 
I didn't know what that was. I thought you were talking about 
my great-grandchildren. And that seems to be a very difficult 
job. I mean, to physically--having to workforce division. And 
that doesn't seem to be a job that, even 50 years ago, I 
personally would have been able to do. Just heavy lifting, 
digging ditches, holes.
    So, when you--you know, so fortunately, we haven't raised 
the--the minimum wage has not been raised around here. It is 
still $7.25--offering $18 an hour, which is, you know, only 
about 63 percent of the median income here in Oklahoma. How did 
you arrive at that?
    I was riding around yesterday with Uber drivers, and they 
said, you cannot live here without a car and get to your job, 
for example. The housing prices are high. We are talking about 
men working now, I think. So, I am not even going to get into 
childcare with you.
    Did you think about some sort of transportation program or 
housing assistance or anything, paid medical leave, any of 
these supports for your employees to offset that $18 an hour 
salary? Because after all, they can go work for Walmart as a 
packer and make $29 an hour.
    Mr. MILLS. We don't see much of that here in Oklahoma. I 
don't know about what the Walmart people are--I mean, everybody 
I talk to at Walmart are working part time with no benefits and 
things like that.
    Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Right. There is just sort of this 
notion that people are just lazy and they don't want to come to 
work. And I am just wondering, I mean, it costs money to go to 
work. And if you don't have a car, how do you get to your job? 
And then I heard that the jobs are, like, 12-hour long days. So 
I don't know who picks up the kids from school. How does any of 
that happen?
    Let me ask Ms. Kantz some questions here. I'm talking about 
the female employment. And you have already discussed the fact 
that there is a very high 20 percent child poverty rate, which 
concerns me. A very high incarceration rate among women here as 
well. So, I specifically want you to talk about how the Earned 
Income Tax Credit maybe does or does not void the plight of 
workers, particularly single workers? I want you to answer 
that, and then I want you to also talk about child poverty in 
the State.
    Ms. KANTZ. Thank you, Representative. For working families 
with children, the EITC or Earned Income Tax Credit is a 
powerful wage subsidy. It and the Child Tax Credit can offset 
their payroll tax liabilities and additionally supplement their 
earnings. The standard deduction, EITC, and Child Tax Credit 
are set at levels that ensure that families with children don't 
have net Federal tax liability if they earn poverty-level 
wages.
    Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. Reclaiming my time. We have five 
seconds left.
    I just want to say that I was fact-checked once, and I want 
to put it in the record, Mr. Chairman. People are--low-wage 
workers are taxed into poverty because of the way the Earned 
Income Tax Credit is structured.
    Would you agree with that, Ms. Kantz.
    Ms. KANTZ. I would.
    Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. All right. So I don't have much 
time, but I do want to make sure that, you know--that this 
committee revisits the Earned Income Tax Credit because it is a 
great program for helping people get out of poverty if it would 
actually do that.
    So I would like, Mr. Chairman, to enter into the record 
that fact check. And I also want to enter into the record 
something very disturbing to me about the incarceration rate of 
women in Oklahoma for child abuse. I mean, that includes not 
having enough money for food, rent. And I am very concerned 
that we are imprisoning women for being poor.
    Mr. Chairman----
    Chairman SMITH. Without objection----
    Ms. MOORE of Wisconsin. I yield back.
    Chairman SMITH. So ordered to put in the record.

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    The gentleman from Pennsylvania, you are recognized.
    Mr. SMUCKER. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thanks for 
holding this hearing here.
    My District in Pennsylvania is an ag district as well. We 
have a lot more dairy cows than we have beef cattle, and a lot 
of egg-laying hens, but agriculture nonetheless. And then 
manufacturing as well. We like to call ourselves the snack 
capital of the world, both salty and sweet. We are close to 
Hershey's and Mars and many others.
    But I was a small business owner myself from the time I was 
17 years old out hanging drywall, and then I built a small 
business that still exists today with several hundred 
employees, a regional leader in commercial contracting. So I 
see the power of an economy that provides opportunity for 
people, and the power of jobs to provide opportunity for 
people.
    And in fact, I ran first for the State Senate and then for 
Congress to really work--I had seen the growth of government 
that really intruded in all aspects of our lives and made it 
much harder for a 17-year-old to run a business. And I really 
ran to kind of fight back against that, both at the State level 
and then at the Federal level. So I hear what you are saying 
and can relate to what you are saying.
    And I think the ranking member made a statement this 
morning that I think was important. And that is, we should be 
able to have discussions about what really works best to lift 
people out of poverty to help individuals achieve their own 
American dream. And we have differences of opinion in how--what 
is the best path forward. But we ought to be able to have these 
discussions. So I appreciate everyone being here in the room 
talking about this.
    But it is pretty clear there is a difference in how we as 
Republicans and how Democrats approach these issues. I think we 
can agree that, you know, we are all thankful that we live in a 
country--and to your point, Mr. Mills--that does help those who 
really need help. And you saw that as mayor. And I have seen 
that in my community, and I am grateful for that.
    And then beyond that, we talk about, what is the best way 
to lift people out of poverty? And I think, in general--and I 
am very much overgeneralizing some of the things you are 
hearing from the Democrat side today--rely more on government 
than what we prefer to. We believe that--in the power and the 
ingenuity of the American people.
    Wouldn't you all agree, and I am just curious, the best way 
to help people, lift people out of poverty, is to provide them 
with a job and to connect them to the job? Do you all agree 
with that? I see heads nodding.
    Mr. MILLS. I agree. And, you know, I was just thinking that 
same thing, when this question came out, that the path out of 
poverty is a job.
    Mr. SMUCKER. So how do we do that? Does the government 
create jobs or do businesses?
    Mr. MILLS. Well, you know, we have jobs. We need to help 
them with skills. And they need to have some basic skills.
    Mr. SMUCKER. Yeah.
    Mr. MILLS. But just like, you know, what has been mentioned 
here, a lot of times, we have someone with basic skills, and we 
can train them to do--because every company is different. We 
all do things a little differently. But we can help train them. 
We also send some of our workers into CareerTech to upscale 
their abilities. We have one of the best CareerTech systems in 
the world, really. People come here just to study our 
CareerTech system.
    Mr. SMUCKER. I agree. And I am going to run out of time. I 
want to make one additional point. And I appreciate your 
commitment. Because it is a really important function to find 
ways to ensure that individuals are prepared for the jobs that 
are available today. Nothing better than lifting people out of 
poverty than that.
    The ranking member also mentioned the success of the 
American Rescue Plan. And some of us believe that that created 
the inflation that has hurt everyday Americans in a degree that 
has been very, very harmful to families. And nowhere, I think, 
than during the discussion of that bill was our difference in 
approach more evident where the bill incentivized people to 
stay home, which I thought was terrible to put people in a 
position of earning more if they stay home. They had to make 
that tough decision. I am going to stay home so I can provide 
for my family.
    Our idea was to provide a $1,500 incentive to have people 
go back to work. What is your reaction to that? Do you think 
that would have worked better than what we have now?
    Mr. MILLS. I think that is a good start. I mean, you know, 
we have got to get something to get them moving. And I think 
we--I am trying to think if that happened here in Oklahoma. I 
know we talked about it. I know our governor talked about that, 
providing that incentive. I can't remember if it happened or 
not.
    But I think it worked because things have gotten a little 
bit better since then. We still are struggling to find those 
skilled workers. But, again, any incentive we can to get people 
back to work, it would be welcome.
    Mr. SMUCKER. Thank you. I am out of time.
    Chairman SMITH. I thank the Representative.
    I recognize the gentlelady from West Virginia, Mrs. Miller.
    Mrs. MILLER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Ranking Member as 
well.
    Thank you all for being here today.
    I feel that policymakers don't always respect or truly 
understand what job creators, business people go through and 
the risk they take every single day when they open their door, 
whether it is a glass door, a fancy wooden door, or a truck 
door. You take risks every single day, and you care about your 
employees, because without them you can't do a good business. 
So I am looking forward to hearing more from you on your ideas.
    Mr. Brevetti, thank you for being here. You know, the 
independent oil and gas producers are so essential to securing 
our American energy and our way of life. Without producers like 
you, it would be much more costly for Americans to keep their 
lights on and our cars powered.
    The Democrats in Congress have consistently used the Tax 
Code to discriminate against American energy producers, from 
attacking deductions for intangible drilling costs to propping 
up unreliable green energy through billions of dollars of 
subsidies. Democrats have shown that they are more willing to 
pick winners and losers.
    Can you explain how higher taxes on America's most abundant 
energy resources, like coal, oil and gas, impact the price for 
our consumers?
    Mr. BREVETTI. Yes, I can. Thank you, Representative Miller.
    Every dollar that you pay in taxes is $1 less you are 
investing into your business, and in our case, our business is 
very risky. All ventures don't work. You are at the vagaries of 
mother nature in the sense that when you--you put a dollar in 
the ground you get $2 back, $3 back or you get none back.
    So punitive tax codes do no good. We should be encouraged 
to take these risks and invest the money, and the benefits are 
twofold: There is benefits to the consumer, you know, the more 
hydrocarbons we can produce in this country, the lower the 
costs are going to be to the consumer; and the other benefit is 
the tax revenues that are going to come from that.
    And those tax revenues are going to come not just from the 
production of the oil and natural gas and our business but from 
the taxes that all of the workers pay that go into the hundreds 
that are needed for every well that is drilled and completed.
    Mrs. MILLER. Well, you know, President Biden, when he 
decided to release millions of gallons of oil from the 
strategic petroleum reserve in a failed attempt to artificially 
lower our prices, how can small producers, like Charter Oak, 
compete against the Federal government in pricing oil?
    Mr. BREVETTI. That is on outstanding point and a great 
question, because I believe the amount of oil released 
initially was 180 million barrels, and then I think it was 
followed up with another 23 million barrels this year. That is 
over 1 million barrels a day. To put that in perspective, that 
is about just almost 10 percent of U.S. production.
    So it would have been--it was not for any sort of national 
emergency. It merely affected the economy. It did temporarily 
drive the prices down, but even if the strategic petroleum 
reserves are never replaced, that million barrels a day of 
production is off of the U.S. market. So now, the demand hasn't 
changed, so us producers have to now come up with that extra 
million barrels a day. That is probably going to raise the 
price of oil to all consumers in the U.S.
    Mrs. MILLER. And it will continue to do so.
    Mr. Jackson, when you spoke, I am sitting here going, boom. 
I enjoyed hearing everything that you had to say. I have a very 
small farm near Milton, West Virginia, and I raise grass-fed 
bison. At one time, I had as many as 100 animals, which is 
pretty tiny to a lot of you, and we are down to about 30 now, 
since I have been in Congress for the last 4 plus years, 
because we just can't, you know, handle what we do. I still 
warm the animals three times a year, and it is a three 
generational thing. It is really cool to see my 13- and 15-
year-old grandsons finally strong enough to pull those gates 
when those animals are, you know, trying to get through.
    So you built your business during one of the most 
challenging economic times our country has faced. Have things 
gotten better or worse for you since you started your business, 
and what is your biggest challenge?
    Mr. JACKSON. I would say, our number one challenge is 
definitely labor, and it was challenging. And speaking of 
bison, that is why we had to reinforce our facility more just 
so we could handle those bigger animals. It gets your 
adrenaline going, working those, but they are definitely 
majestic creatures.
    I would say, if I could offer one idea though for how to 
entice people to come to work though, it would be to offer them 
hope. That is what we need as a Nation is for people to hope 
that things can get better. And I think we owe it to each other 
to share that knowledge of what we have learned so people can 
walk in the door with zero experience. They can learn some 
tangible, vocational skills, things that we had to learn on the 
fly that we couldn't go to a school for and walk away with some 
real skills they can use somewhere else.
    And that is empowering for people to have that, to know 
they have hope that they can make their life better for their 
family. And then with that, we have to coach and mentor. We 
have to have people grow in their jobs. And we look at it more 
as not transactional, but it has to be relational. And we 
benefit from that as a small business to see firsthand people's 
lives, what they struggle with, and then help as best we can 
from our vantage point to make their life better.
    Mrs. MILLER. Thank you.
    Ms. Payne, I do have to tell you that I processed all of 
our animals. I was always in there when we did it. Thank you.
    Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentlelady, and 
recognize the representative from Michigan, Mr. Kildee.
    Mr. KILDEE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can you hear me? Okay.
    And thanks to the witnesses for your testimony, to all of 
you for your service to our country, Mr. Jackson, you in 
particular. One of the great experiences all of us get to have 
is to travel to West Point or to any of the academies and meet 
the young people that we nominate to those institutions. And I 
just want to say to you how much I enjoy that and appreciate 
it, particularly appreciate your willingness to serve our 
country in the fashion that you have.
    You know, driving out here or riding out here on the bus, 
it looked like I was in any part of my district. A lot of 
folks, you know, have an impression about the district I 
represent because of my hometown getting some of the attention 
that it does. I am from Flint, Gwen. But most of the people and 
most of the district that I represent looks just like the 
country that we drove through. I have conversations just like 
this one in my district every single week. I represent a lot of 
growers, a lot of folks in agriculture, and I appreciate the 
perspective that you bring, and it is an important one.
    I also think, you know, the institution of Congress can do 
better in terms of having civil dialogue. I wax nostalgic 
thinking about Mr. Lucas when he was the chair of the 
Agriculture Committee and how during that period of time, 
despite the fact that we had differences, we were able to come 
together on a farm bill that was good for Americans, good for 
the American economy.
    And I just hope that as we go into another year writing a 
farm bill that we are going to be able to draw on that example 
that you set, along with our friend from Minnesota, who is no 
longer in Congress. That is an important statement.
    And I just want to say that out loud, because listening to 
the dialogue here one might get the impression that there is 
two distinct un-overlapped philosophies of government. That is 
just not true. We all have different perspectives, we come from 
different life paths, but we have a lot in common, and we ought 
to not allow our differences, as significant as they may be, 
cancel our areas of agreement. And as I said, Mr. Lucas showed 
that when he was the chair of the Ag Committee. I hope we can 
find a path forward in that same light.
    I would like to emphasize and ask Ms. Kantz a question. You 
know, one of the challenges that we face, and I know this is 
true here in Oklahoma, is that our Tribal Nations, sometimes it 
is going to operate in two distinct spheres. There is an 
impression over the last few decades that Tribal Nations have 
done extraordinarily well. Well, that is not true entirely. 
Some of the highest poverty rates, some of the most difficult 
challenges around health, around income, around economic 
disparity is found in Indian country.
    One of the things that Congress has failed to do is to 
create parity for our Tribal Nations when it comes to the use 
of those tools of the Tax Code that do--I am sorry. I guess you 
couldn't hear me. I won't start over, although I could. The 
tools of the Tax Code, which is the mechanism for incentives 
for private investment are not equally available in Indian 
country.
    Something as simple, for example, is the ability to issue 
tax-exempt bonds the way every government pretty much finances 
large infrastructure improvements, which is a key to economic 
development, is locked away from those Tribal governments. 
Other uses of the code regarding housing policy are not readily 
available. And I wonder if you just might comment on how that 
impacts the economy and what difference it would make if this 
committee and Congress could get together, as Republicans and 
Democrats now have expressed, and share those tax benefits with 
Indian country.
    Ms. KANTZ. Well, thank you, Representative, and I agree 
with you. I think in any chance we get that we can put our 
people over politics we should be doing that, so thank you for 
those words.
    But I think, just to be very blunt, we need to be talking 
to our Tribal Nations. We need to talk to the 38 federally 
recognized Tribes that are in Oklahoma and listen to them and 
hear what the challenges are. Similar to, why is our workforce 
not coming to work? Are we talking to them? Are we asking them 
what is keeping you from work? So how would that participation 
look for the Tribes.
    This is a space where the United States should honor the 
sovereignty of the Tribal Nations and have good-faith 
negotiations to ensure that all parties can agree on equitable 
approaches to strengthening economic conditions for not just 
Oklahoma citizens and U.S. citizens but Tribal Nation citizens. 
I have got dual citizenship as I sit here, as a Cherokee Nation 
citizen and as an American citizen. And the Tribes do have a 
huge impact on our economy, and it really has proven that when 
we work together we are better.
    The Tribes have very much--I can speak from personal 
experience from the help with school supplies, the help with 
housing, the help with healthcare that we have received, as for 
my family for Tribes, it matters and it makes a difference in 
Oklahoma.
    And there is so much impact that these Tribes are having in 
rural Oklahoma especially. I know the Chickasaw Nation, the 
Cherokee Nation, they are really working to reach those folks 
who are outside the metros that are struggling.
    So I do think that we have to work together. We are all so 
wonderful, smart, innovative folks in this room, and if we put 
our politics aside and do what is best for just working-class 
Americans that don't maybe have the privilege or the advantage 
that we were born with or that we were provided, then we are 
all going to do better.
    Mr. KILDEE. Thank you.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative.
    I recognize the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Kustoff.
    Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for convening us 
here, and to all members who have appeared, and certainly to 
the witnesses who are here with us today. I think we have 
learned a lot so far from your testimony.
    If I could, Mr. Mills and maybe Mr. Jackson, you have 
talked about the challenges with labor. Mr. Mills, I think you 
talked about the incentivizing or maybe the decentivizing, from 
the hiring and retaining of employees, which are two distinctly 
different things. If I could, Mr. Mills, maybe anecdotally, can 
you tell the committee what you have heard from potential 
employees when you tried to hire them and had trouble and maybe 
also what you have heard when you have had challenges retaining 
those employees?
    Mr. MILLS. You know, one of the problems is getting them to 
come to an interview, just showing up. I mean, you know, you go 
out there and advertise or work with Indeed or whatever and 
they make an appointment to come and they just don't show up.
    Mr. KUSTOFF. Do you have an opinion why?
    Mr. MILLS. No. I wish I knew, because, you know, you have 
this--the job is clear, the pay is clear, and they just don't 
show up. And then, you know, you try to get ahold of them, and 
they just don't answer. So I wish I knew. I don't have the 
answer for that, but, you know--so you just continue to--we 
just keep going until you find someone that does show up, and I 
don't have the benefit of that knowledge.
    Mr. KUSTOFF. You had those challenges before COVID. Those 
challenges have been exasperated after COVID. Is that fair?
    Mr. MILLS. That is fair to say. We had some of that problem 
before, but it has gotten way worse, and I don't know why. I 
wish I knew the answer if we need to do something different. I 
don't know what it is personally. So I don't have an answer. I 
am sorry.
    Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you, Mr. Mills.
    Mr. Jackson, what are some of the things you have heard as 
either you have tried to hire employees and maybe they don't 
take the job or they won't show to work and also about 
retaining some of those employees?
    Mr. JACKSON. The hardest thing I think, and I share in that 
same frustration, is people sometimes have someone else come 
pick up an application for them. They don't return the 
application. If they do come to the interview, they don't show 
up on their first day of work. So there is a series of 
challenges that we have leading up to someone starting on their 
first day, and I think that is attributed to just a lack of 
desire on the part of people to put the work in that is needed 
to actually show up to work.
    And we have even had some employees that they have left on 
their own accord, they have quit, and then a week later I 
receive a call from the organization asking about SNAP, EBT 
benefits, because the person says they were terminated instead 
of quitting. So I deal with that often, in addition to issues 
with child support of delayed payment because of a lag, and 
those agencies knowing where people are. And so I handle a lot 
of paperwork in terms of helping them try to play catchup with 
that, so there is a lot of different things that we deal with 
that are outside of the actual production of work.
    Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you, Mr. Jackson, and thank you for your 
service to our Nation.
    Ms. Payne, if I could with you, I would like to follow up 
maybe in a different way from what Mr. Lucas asked you, and 
that is about waters of the U.S. You testified about that in 
your testimony. You are speaking to the Nation. This hearing is 
being broadcast. You are obviously speaking to people who live 
outside of rural America. Can you talk about, from your 
standpoint as a rancher, as a grower, what the practical, 
pragmatic effects of the waters of the U.S. would be if 
implemented, how that affects you and other ranchers and 
growers?
    Ms. PAYNE. Thank you for the question. I can speak 
specifically to our operation. Our southern border of our farm 
ranch is a river, the South Canadian River, easiest place in 
the world to find. Most people drive by it on a regular basis. 
I am in Oklahoma City limits. We have a ditch in the front of 
our--in our yard. Now, it is dry. When we flooded, which is 
what brought us out of the last drought over 10 years ago, 
water, water everywhere.
    It will affect everything that we do from a sprain, which 
we haven't been able to do, low lying areas. Our soil has 
changed during this drought. It changes every time. Water will 
stand where it wouldn't have stood before. There is nothing 
good that comes of this, in my opinion.
    Mr. KUSTOFF. Thank you. My time is expired. I will yield 
back. Thank you.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative.
    I would like to recognize the gentlelady from New York, Ms. 
Tenney.
    Ms. TENNEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to the 
witnesses. This has been tremendous.
    And I just want to follow up on something that Mr. Hern 
said. He said that--how many people talk about things they 
don't know about, and I want to add that as a small business 
owner, how many of these people don't even try to find out the 
answers.
    And so I thank the chairman for doing this and hearing 
directly from you about what your issues are as small business 
owners and the struggles that you face. And my business was 
started 77 years ago by my grandfather.
    And we have similar issues in New York, but I will tell 
you, if you want to know about killing prosperity, this story 
of New York is how one party, Democrats, socialists rule, 
destroyed the State of New York. And I say that for a reason, 
because this isn't the days of Reagan-O'Neill that we once 
enjoyed as a country. There is a certain element in New York 
State particularly that is hurting our country and hurting our 
State in terms of regulations.
    And I agree that there is a middle ground. We do need--and 
the mayor, thank you for saying this. We do have to care for 
the truly needy people in our communities. That is an 
obligation we have, and it is something that we all have a 
mission to do. But there is a middle ground between are we 
helping, hurting, and are we hurting our small business owners 
and our taxpayers.
    And so I like when you said, when you were asked the 
question, how are your profits. That is a huge question in New 
York. Most of us don't have any profits. Boy, would I love to 
have profits. The only problem is when you get profits you 
issue dividends and you get taxed twice, so that is something 
that I haven't had the joy of experiencing.
    But I wanted to just go back and just ask you a little bit 
about dealing with some of the issues as an employer, and I 
wanted to actually start with Mr. Jackson and go down the line. 
We really appreciate your service. West Point is wonderful in 
New York. My son is a Naval Academy graduate, so I appreciate 
the rivalry, but wonderful institution as well. So thank you so 
much for your service and honorable service.
    But, you know, in terms of small business, you mentioned 
something, and this is something that when I go back to whether 
it is entitlements, one of the issues we face as an employer is 
many of our employees, our boomers who are coming back to work 
and many of them are already getting some kind of public 
assistance, so they are asking us to actually pay them less or 
to get less hours so that they can continue to work. Is that 
something that you are facing in your business, Mr. Jackson?
    Mr. JACKSON. I am sorry, could you phrase the question 
differently so I can understand what you are asking?
    Ms. TENNEY. Yeah. Are you having employees come in that 
don't want to work as many hours and are reaching a limit where 
they would not be eligible for some of the entitlements they 
may be getting, maybe in the case of seniors who are collecting 
Social Security don't want to, you know, impede or impinge on 
their Social Security or other people are receiving other types 
of benefits because they don't want to get to that level?
    Mr. JACKSON. Absolutely, we have seen that.
    Ms. TENNEY. Okay. How about Mr. Mills, with your 
organization?
    Mr. MILLS. Yeah, we have seen the same thing. And, you 
know, my greatest--I have people ask me all the time--I am at 
retirement age, and they say, well, when are you going to 
retire? And I said, and do what? I like what I do. I am not 
just going to sit at home and die. I have to be doing something 
constructive.
    My greatest fear is the employees that I have that have 
been with me 30 years, and I have many of those, 25 and 30 
years, I am really more worried about them retiring. So I am 
doing all I can to work with them to keep them. They are my 
brain trust. And so these are concerns, because you have to--
you know, I am on--you know, I have had to already apply, 
because I am 66, I will just tell you. But----
    Ms. TENNEY. You don't look it.
    Mr. MILLS. Thank you. I am concerned about my employees 
really facing those same things of not being able to make as 
much money in order to draw their Social Security. And so it is 
a concern, and it should be a concern for a lot of people in 
the workforce because these are people we depend on. They have 
so much experience.
    Ms. TENNEY. Thank you.
    I.am going to reclaim my time because I want to save a 
question for Mr. Brevetti. All great witnesses. But, you know, 
Joe Biden said in his State of the Union address that we only 
have about 10 years left of fossil fuels. I would like you to 
address what that would do to the economy since there are a lot 
of taxes on gas and other things that fuel our economy, run our 
infrastructure, our transportation. But also, would your 
community benefit most from a tax credit to help buy an $80,000 
luxury electric vehicle or from policies that reduce gas 
prices? Can you kind of hit those two--two-sided question 
there.
    Mr. BREVETTI. Well, I will address the first question about 
Biden's 10-year comment. Even the most liberal energy policy 
group, which I believe personally is the International Energy 
Agency, okay, the IEA, I think they show us using almost the 
same amount of oil in 2050 as we are using today. It kind of 
continues to rise little beaks and drops.
    So oil is not going away. Its products are used in so many 
things besides for transportation, you know, tires on vehicles. 
Natural gas, of course, has so many other products. Fertilizer 
for our farms. I don't see us running tractors out of anything 
other than diesel, and if you are going to mine lithium and 
strategic metals, that is all going to be done with equipment 
that is going to be using diesel most likely. So I don't see 
that going away.
    In the aspect of renewables, when the wind quits blowing, 
which it occasionally does in Oklahoma, you have to immediately 
come on with a backup power supply. So for every megawatt of 
wind you have got about an equivalent megawatt of natural gas 
combined cycle turbines that spool up. So that is not going 
away.
    To the aspect of your second point on the electrification--
--
    Ms. TENNEY. Tax credit for an $80,000----
    Chairman SMITH. We need to wrap it up.
    Mr. BREVETTI. Yeah, tax credits for $85 dollar bills, yeah, 
the people who buy those are wealthy. They don't need a tax 
credit. And, you know, in much of the country the world will 
electrify and is, but in much of the country it is not there 
yet. You know, you couldn't drive across the State of Oklahoma 
and not even to mention----
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you all very much.
    Ms. TENNEY. Thank you so much. I yield.
    Chairman SMITH. Mr. Schneider, you are recognized.
    Mr. SCHNEIDER. Thank you, Chairman Smith. I thank you and 
Ranking Member Neal for this opportunity to talk about the 
state of the American economy and how we are trying to help 
American businesses flourish and the American economy continue 
its strong growth.
    I also want to thank the witnesses for offering your 
testimony on what workers and business owners need to thrive in 
this modern economy. Many of the things we have talked about 
today are echoed with what I hear from my home district in 
Illinois. And personally, I am excited to be here in Oklahoma. 
Much of my father's family traced their roots to this State. 
Having worked on a horse ranch in Colorado 40 years ago, it 
feels like coming home to be in this building.
    I only wish we could have been here longer, had time to 
explore and learn and understand both the challenges and 
opportunities that the hardworking people of Oklahoma are 
pursuing and do much. That said, we all talk about government 
spending, and I wonder if spending a few hours in a rather cold 
room without time to actually tour the area or to meet and 
speak directly with the people is our best use of public 
precious resources of taxpayer funds.
    Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit for the record an 
article from the New York Times talking about the impact of 
these road shows on committee budgets.
    Chairman SMITH. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The information follows:]

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mr. SCHNEIDER. Thank you.
    And, Mr. Mills, I started my career in the oil and gas 
industry back in the mid-1980s, early 1980s doing accounting 
software. I very well understand the boom/bust cycle. I 
remember the bust of 1986. I wouldn't want to ever experience 
that again. And that was, I would argue, one of the toughest 
times this industry ever faced.
    But I later spent much of the last 30 years afterwards 
working with private businesses advising mostly family 
businesses. I know that only one in three family businesses 
make it to a second generation, one in ten to a third. The fact 
that you are still in business after 108 years is really 
extraordinary and to be celebrated, and I wish you--or 115 
years, since 1908--a lot there.
    I also know from my experience that there are four key 
factors that businesses depend on for growth. One is a business 
model. Government has no role in that. That is up to each of 
you to decide the best model. But beyond that, it is access to 
talent, it is access to capital, and it is a stable business 
and political environment. Businesses thrive when they can make 
long-term decisions to make decisions into the future, 
confident that they are not going to see the pendulum swing, in 
particular in government, whether it is at the State house or 
in Washington.
    That said, we also hear, and everywhere we go I am hearing 
about the challenges with labor. You all have touched on that. 
Every company I talk to, small, medium, large size, high-tech, 
the service industry says we are having a hard time finding 
people. And this is something we have seen over the last--more 
than 2 decades, a decline in workforce participation and people 
coming there.
    There are things we can do. We need to educate our 
workforce. We need to make sure we have workers coming up. And 
I think the government does have a role in that. In particular, 
I applaud in my district the community colleges, College of 
Lake County is one example that is working very hard to do 
that, but we can promote that training.
    In the coming days, one of the bills that I have been 
working on and will reintroduce is the Veterans 
Entrepreneurship Training Act.
    And, Mr. Jackson, thank you for your service. My son is a 
Navy veteran. I represent Naval Station Great Lakes, so every 
recruit going into the Navy comes through my district, so I am 
in every way possible a Navy dad.
    Our bill codifies and expands the successful Boots to 
Business program offered by the Small Business Administration. 
This is a program that provides entrepreneurship courses to 
people coming out of service, transitioning back into civilian 
life. And I am proud to be working across the aisle with the 
Small Business Committee Chairman Roger Williams in introducing 
this, and across the Capitol with Senators Durbin and Ernst in 
the Senate.
    So, Mr. Jackson, I will turn to you. You served our country 
heroically. You came back. You are working in your community. 
You are making a difference. You have talked about the ups and 
downs, both personal and business. And you are working as a 
career coach with Federadi.
    Can you share a little bit about your experience, what you 
have learned and what you wish lessons you could have been 
provided along the way, and how some of the challenges the 
veterans you are working with, what they face and how we can 
better export them.
    Mr. JACKSON. I appreciate that question. I know we are 
short on time, but there are three things that I would want to 
highlight there. One is, I wish I had known when I was 
transitioning that there were more things available for people 
who wanted to start a small business. Most of what we were told 
about was vocational type training that was available.
    So I would recommend maybe in partnership with the VA 
maybe--in partnership with the VA, maybe working with different 
ways to allow veterans to know what is out there, either 
vocational training to be a good employee or to start a 
business, so they know what tools are able to help them succeed 
outside the military.
    Another way might be to have small business loans that 
would help with operating capital through SBA. That would be 
another helpful way.
    And then we also have existing organizations that do a 
great job, Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, things 
like that that are in place right now at no cost to veterans 
that are very helpful.
    Mr. SCHNEIDER. Great. Thank you. And, again, thank you for 
your service.
    Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the representative.
    I recognize the gentleman from Utah, Mr. Moore.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Thank you, Chairman.
    Mr. Mills, as a father of four boys, 10 and under, I want 
to say how much I appreciate your comments about participation 
trophies, and wondering if you would be interested in a little 
league coaching job in northern Utah by any chance. I 
appreciate that, and I like that sentiment about labor.
    I commend my colleague from Wisconsin for asking a very 
skilled and somewhat risky question to one of the majority 
witnesses. I am going to do the same risk by asking a question 
to the minority witness here, Ms. Kantz, and hope to see--I 
appreciated Mr. Mills' candor and hope the same from you as 
well. Would you say that you are at least, you know, supportive 
of the 2017 provision that doubled the child tax credit?
    Ms. KANTZ. I would, yes.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Thanks. So my point with that is, 2017 
Tax Cut and Jobs Act, I was way on the sidelines, nowhere near 
Congress at the time. And I saw it, and I didn't know all of 
what to think about it. I wasn't dug into the details on it. It 
didn't fix a lot of our spending issues, but what it did was 
grow our economy. And is any bill in Congress perfect? No. But 
that bill grew our economy, and it strengthened, I believe, the 
American workforce.
    And what we have seen since then--and I remember saying 
this when I was on the campaign trail in 2020, which was not a 
fun time to run for Congress. Hopefully it is the only time I 
ever have to first run for Congress. But as COVID was starting 
and ramping up, I remember saying to folks, we have the bones 
of a strong economy and will recover quickly from this. And I 
firmly believe that the 2017 Tax Cut and Jobs Act was a strong 
reason why we were able to bounce back, right.
    We had Republican majorities with the White House in 2017; 
Democrats had the same in 2021. We do our priorities, right, 
and we try to get things done. We have a sincere effort, right. 
I will obviously, you know, lean towards a conservative point 
of view, and when those majorities existed that is what my 
focus is on.
    But we right now as a committee have an opportunity to do 
something that I appreciate Chairman Smith's focus on and that 
is small business. And many of these tax provisions are set to 
expire, you know, have already expired, and we are working on 
figuring out what is the most important thing to do and what do 
we need to do to make sure that you all, many of you small 
business owners, have what you need to thrive.
    So I would like to submit for the record, Mr. Chairman, a 
statement by Darrell Wilkerson, the owner of Wilkie 
Manufacturing, LLC, in Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, describing how 
soaring costs, supply chain issues, and labor shortages have 
severely hurt small businesses' ability to operate in today's 
economy.
    Chairman SMITH. Without objection, so ordered.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Thank you.
    I have one simple question, and I am going to ask all of 
you to respond to it: What would you have us focus on with 
respect to making sure that your small business could thrive? 
What is one, maybe two things, just topically, and we will dig 
into the minutia of the tax provisions and all that, but what 
would you have us focus on?
    Mr. JACKSON. I would say, being a new business, the biggest 
help we could have is probably better access to operating lines 
of credit for our cash flow situation. And then beyond that, 
just help us feel more empowered so that we can focus on 
helping our employees grow and bringing in and retaining that 
top talent, not worrying about how to pay our bills and things 
like that, but instead focusing on how we can make other 
people's lives better, the people we bring in the door, and 
help them then impact the community.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Coach.
    Mr. MILLS. You know, I raised two girls, so I didn't have 
to worry too much about little league stuff, so it might be 
kind of new for me. Although, I had my first grandson, so I may 
be getting involved in that. Thank you.
    You know, everything, again, for me focuses back on 
workforce, because that is kind of what I have been involved in 
for a long time. And, you know, anything that you guys can do 
to continue to support the Workforce Act, you know, that is 
good Federal dollars that come down to the States and actually 
go help people, up-skill, you know, and relocate, you know. If 
they are dislocated workers, they are able to be relocated into 
jobs. But that is one of the great programs, I think, that 
continues to work here. So I would encourage you to continue to 
develop those programs and workforce.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Thank you.
    Ms. Payne.
    Ms. PAYNE. Yeah. Just watching the time, I would mirror 
their comments but also just minimal regulation. Let us work, 
let us create, let us prosper.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Mr. Brevetti.
    Mr. BREVETTI. Agree with the other comments, and, you know, 
please let us deduct our expenses when we spend them. You know, 
let's preserve the EIDC.
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Ms. Kantz.
    Ms. KANTZ. I would dig into the barriers keeping people 
from work. What are we doing to get them to the job, and are 
they jobs that are going to be able to pay the bills?
    Mr. MOORE of Utah. Thank you.
    Thank you, all. Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative.
    I recognize the gentlelady from California, Ms. Steel.
    Mrs. STEEL. Thank you, Chairman Smith, for this important 
field hearing to learn more about the state of the American 
economy. Thank you for our guests for taking time away from 
their busy jobs to discuss how they have been dealing with the 
economic downturn for the last 2 years.
    I represent southern California. California farmers and 
other small businesses have been facing supply chain issues and 
port delays raising production costs, including higher expenses 
for fertilizer and fuel, mega drought, and now unusual weather 
events. My congressional district has a front row seat to the 
port backlogs, which at its peak witnessed more than 174 idling 
and anchored ships off the southern California coast. I 
introduced the Supply Chain Task Force Act that would create an 
interagency task force to immediately work on addressing the 
backlog, and this was included in the NDAA.
    I want to ask Mr. Mills and Ms. Payne, many families that 
run businesses in my district have shared the concerns with the 
future of their businesses. California progressive regulations 
have made it difficult for them to succeed. I always tell 
everybody, whatever you do exactly opposite of what California 
does, you are going to be successful. What obstacles are you 
currently facing and expect to face if we stay on the current 
track?
    Mr. MILLS. If we stay on this current track, we are going 
to survive but we are going to be impaired, and it is going to 
be difficult to grow. You know, I just can't explain how 
painful the price increases have been and how hard it is to 
sell product, and especially worldwide to sell that product, 
you know. And, again, all this, to me, still goes back to 
workforce, because everyone down the supply chain has the same 
problem.
    So to me it is really simple about supply and demand. You 
know, we have still great demand but less supply, so the prices 
are going to continue to go up. And despite the feds continuing 
to raise the interest rates, the pain has evidently, pain 
threshold has not been reached yet, I suppose.
    But we are going to see continued problems here because of 
these escalating prices. At some point, we are going to hit 
that tipping point where my customers are going to say, I am 
not paying that and, you know, then things are going to stop, 
things are going to crash. And that is where I see us going.
    Mrs. STEEL. Ms. Payne.
    Ms. PAYNE. Thank you. The farm that we are so proud of, 
that has been in our family for 5 generations, is not good for 
anything but what it is being used for, and that is growing 
grass for cattle. The portion of the farm that is certified for 
agritourism is on a bluff, and we could actually grow something 
there, fruits and vegetables.
    What we are seeing though and what concerns me, we provided 
a food source by growing crops for fruits and vegetables with 
this agritourism venue so that there is fresh, wholesome food 
in our community. If people can't afford to buy that, it 
doesn't matter if we grow 70,000 acres of it. And that is a 
real concern for me with the cost of everything--I mean, my 
input costs are going up. We all shop at a grocery store. And 
what happens when we can't afford to put food on our tables? It 
doesn't matter what I grow, I can't give it away.
    Mrs. STEEL. Thank you. Related to that, I hear a lot about 
workforce shortages from my constituents. How can we, the 
future generation, develop skills and succeed in the workforce, 
and how are you going to bring them back? Because, you know, 
right now they are always asking for flexible hours, more 
money, and they are not ready to work. I am not talking about 
everybody. I am talking about those people that we try to 
interview and try to bring them in.
    You know what, I am a first-generation Korean American, I 
used to work 18 hours a day, and I still work 7 days a week and 
more than 12 hours a week--I mean a day. So what challenges are 
we seeing and then how to fix it?
    Mr. JACKSON. I appreciate you mentioning being Korean 
American. I had many classmates from West Point who were first-
generation immigrants from Korea who were representing their 
family well with a lot of dignity and honor.
    Mrs. STEEL. Thank you for your service.
    Mr. JACKSON. Thank you. I would say, there is two things as 
a veteran that I learned that would help people be better 
empowered to be better employees: One would be discipline, and 
the other would be extreme ownership. So with discipline, it is 
seeing the job through with quality and consistency. And as far 
as ownership goes, whatever you see you own. And as a business 
owner, I have learned that everything that goes wrong is my 
fault, either failure to communicate or to train my people. 
Anything that goes well is the result of them doing a great job 
as a team.
    Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentlelady.
    Mrs. STEEL. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you.
    I recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Panetta.
    Mr. PANETTA. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Appreciate that, Ranking Member.
    Mr. Hern, Mr. Lucas, thank you for this opportunity to be 
here in Oklahoma, in your State. I appreciate that.
    Again, my name is Jimmy Panetta. I come from the central 
coast of California, where we do have a lot of beauty as you 
can imagine, but we have also got a lot of bounty. Agriculture 
is my number one industry in that area. In fact, with 
redistricting I actually gained the largest cattlemen's 
association in California, in northern San Luis Obispo County. 
And then of course, we have our specialty crops. So I am 
hearing a lot of the same concerns today that I hear in my 
district, obviously especially when it comes to water and 
workers.
    Now, I have got to say, we don't hear much about oil and 
gas in my district. And when it comes to regulations, let me 
just tell you, the people in agriculture in my State would 
think of Oklahoma as Disneyland, okay. Let me just make that 
clear, all right, so take that for what it is worth.
    Now, obviously when it comes to the two issues that I hear 
most about from my ag people, water and workers, you know, 
technology is playing a big part in that. Obviously with water, 
we are seeing that when it comes to recycling and recharge and 
even diesel to a certain extent.
    And when it comes to workers, it is obviously trying to 
replace not labor but the lack of labor. Now, be it COVID or 
preCOVID, that has always been the number one issue, especially 
with my specialty crops, and how difficult it is to replace the 
human discernment when it comes to actually bending over, 
looking at a strawberry plant, and deciding what is an 
aesthetically pleasing, safe, ripe, and clean strawberry and 
actually taking the time and technology to pack it in a clam 
shell. Technology is just not there, so you need humans to do 
that type of work, especially right now. Maybe 1 day we will 
get there, but not right now.
    Now, fortunately we have people who are willing to come to 
this country and do that type of work. Let me tell you, no 
American is doing that type of work. They are just not doing 
it. And therefore, we need the same people that have come 
throughout the history of this country to come here to 
contribute here, to work here, and to ensure that basically we 
continue to go forward and be that number one agriculture, not 
just State of California but number one agriculture producing 
nation in the world.
    And so obviously, it is this reliance on foreign workers to 
do that type of tough work is what it has come down to. And so 
I was wondering, I hadn't heard much talk about that in your 
lines of work. I mean, do you have foreign workers who are 
coming in and filling those tough jobs that no Americans are 
willing to do?
    Mr. Mills.
    Mr. MILLS. You know, we do, and of course, I see more of it 
in the construction industry around me. And I actually have a 
friend that runs a--he is construction and he does lawn care 
and things like that, and he has mainly Mexican workers. But 
they all come in legally and, you know, send money home and 
whatever. But, you know, personally I think that we need to 
bring more immigrant workers in, legally is the key though. I 
welcome, you know, hey, if you will come in and be productive 
citizens of our society, pay your share, welcome, open the 
doors.
    Mr. PANETTA. Right. Mr. Mills, are you familiar with the H-
2A system?
    Mr. MILLS. I am.
    Mr. PANETTA. Okay. And would you encourage an increasing of 
that system?
    Mr. MILLS. I would. I think it is a good program.
    Mr. PANETTA. All right. Thank you.
    And then, Mr. Jackson, obviously in your line of work you 
rely on foreign workers?
    Mr. JACKSON. We do not. And most of our work is done by 
hand, so I would be in favor of anything that would help 
increase automation to better train those employees, but also 
to help us be more efficient as the large packers are able to 
do.
    Mr. PANETTA. Understood. Thank you.
    Let me just pivot over to Ms. Kantz. Obviously, Mr. 
Schweikert alluded to this in his questioning in regards to 
some of the issues keeping people out of work, and that being 
opioids. It is, you know, what I has caused, I think, what now, 
80,000 lives in 2021. So, Ms. Kantz, you know, when it comes to 
opioids, I know that in my district they want to increase 
access to medication-assisted treatment, specifically, 
Buprenorphine, also known as Suboxone. I know a lot of my 
doctors have asked for that. How does access to that 
medication-assisted treatment impact communities in Oklahoma, 
including the workforce?
    Ms. KANTZ. I think any time we can help our workforce 
access care, any type of care that they need, I don't think it 
is our job to regulate what care they are getting within the 
doctor's office. So I think anytime they can access that care 
we are supportive of it, and I do believe that there is some 
mental health pieces there that need to be lifted up, that 
there is a lot of--there is a lack of care in Oklahoma 
specifically around opioids and substance abuse.
    Mr. PANETTA. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative.
    I recognize the gentleman from Iowa, Mr. Feenstra.
    Mr. FEENSTRA. Thank you, Chairman Smith.
    And I want to also say thanks to Congressman Hern and Lucas 
for having us here in Oklahoma. This is quite an amazing State.
    I also want to thank our witnesses, and your testimony is 
very impressive.
    In 2017, we passed a significant Tax Cut and Jobs Act, and 
it affected virtually everyone in the heartland. When I talk 
about the heartland, I talk about Oklahoma, I talk about my 
State also, Iowa. You know, we are the bread basket to the 
world, and it goes somewhat unnoticed. You know, I never hear 
from President Biden about, well, all the food that we are 
creating and that we are exporting, and yet we do it and we 
work hard, and we are very happy about doing these things.
    In that Tax Cut and Jobs Act, section 199(a) allowed 
farmers and small businesses to take a deduction, up to 20 
percent of their qualified income. This is very significant. It 
allowed small businesses and farmers to compete on the global 
stage.
    And so, Mr. Mills, I want to ask you a question. In your 
testimony, you noted when you are able to negotiate lower 
prices for materials you pass these savings along to your 
customers. How about when the government helps and gives you a 
tax reduction, is that the same thing? Does that apply?
    Mr. MILLS. Yeah, I would think it would apply. You know, 
and it is--to me, of course, my best investment is my business. 
So any advantage I would get would be invested back into my 
business to hire more people, develop new product, and, you 
know, that is how we would, you know, use an incentive like 
that.
    Mr. FEENSTRA. So what you are saying is, it goes two ways. 
When you lower taxes you can either pass it on to your customer 
or you can grow your business as an investment. Is that a fair 
statement?
    Mr. MILLS. That is fair. And the statement I was making 
there was, as we see--you know, it is actually interesting that 
almost everything has gone up with our bar material and tube 
material. Just recently we have seen a reduction in steel 
plate, and so that's a big part of what we buy. So we are going 
to readjust our pricing back down to be more--to make our 
customers more competitive. And, you know, if things go up, 
they have to share the cost; if things go down then, you know, 
we go down too. We don't just say, oh, we are going to make 
more money.
    Mr. FEENSTRA. That is exactly right.
    Mr. MILLS. We don't look at it that way.
    Mr. FEENSTRA. Exactly. Thank you for those comments, Mr. 
Mills.
    Ms. Payne, as you know, you are a part of the farming 
community, just like I am in Iowa. Nine out of every ten 
farmers are small businessmen and women. We are either LLCs, 
partnerships, you know, sole proprietors, S-corps. We are not 
big corporations, right. We are small. So how does--when I 
start talking about tax reduction 199(a), where you get a 20 
percent deduction on your qualified business income, how does 
that affect you? And by the way, it is going to go away. It is 
shocking, but in 2025 it is going to sunset. So how does the 
uncertainty affect you when you see something that you have 
today, but it is going to be gone tomorrow?
    Ms. PAYNE. That is a very fair question, and I think there 
is more and more of that. As I mentioned earlier, a lot of 
times, especially in cattle industry, we are working for one 
paycheck. We will get that check once a year. And so we are 
always looking further on down the line.
    Like right now, I don't have anything at the house, but I 
am planning for 3 years from now--hopefully we will have 
pasture--about what I can stock that place with. Within that 
planning is also going to require some financial management, so 
we like to be able to count on certain things. I can't discount 
my livestock. This is not a cash sale like that, but I want to 
be able to plan to be able to buy overhead bin or any of the 
tractors, any of the things that I would need.
    Mr. FEENSTRA. Taking away from that, Mr. Mills, if you 
could further expound on that. You know, right now we have a 
thing called 139 depreciation, which you can fully depreciate 
an asset in 1 year, a bonus appreciation the same way. But that 
is going to go away. It is going down from 100 percent to 80 
percent to 60 percent.
    So when you buy capital equipment, and all of a sudden now 
you can fully depreciate it, but it is going away, this year it 
is gone, it is slowly going down, how does that affect you? If 
I had to guess, that would also affect your future decision-
making.
    Mr. MILLS. Well, you know, first of all, you have to have 
some cash flow to make that happen, that is number one. And 
right now, because of what we are having to expend on buying 
additional materials, we are not even looking at buying 
anything equipment wise. We are really just pulling back and 
going, okay, let's see what happens because, again, our best 
investment is to go out and invest in those materials, 
controlling that cost, make it competitive for our customers.
    Mr. FEENSTRA. Thank you.
    And I just want to note to everybody, that is what 
inflation does, by the way, people, just what he said. Thank 
you, and I yield back.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative.
    I would like to recognize the gentlelady from New York, Ms. 
Malliotakis.
    Mr. MALLIOTAKIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I will say, 
as a New Yorker and Yankee fan, it is exciting to be here in 
the birthplace of Mickey Mantle.
    You know, when we talk about Made in America we are talking 
about you, right, American manufacturers, American farmers, 
food producers, American energy producers. And we have a 
President that talks a lot about Made in America, but what I am 
hearing today is that the policies, there is a real disconnect 
between what he says and the policies that are coming from this 
administration.
    Because what I have heard today is that higher taxes, 
burdensome regulations, permitting delays, the disincentivizing 
of work have all made it more difficult for you to create jobs. 
It has made it more difficult for you to create American jobs, 
let's be specific, and produce more American goods forcing us 
to rely on foreign countries, particularly as it pertains to 
energy. And I want to focus on the energy policy because we 
rely on energy for everything, to manufacture, to transport 
goods and food, to have a quality of life where we can have 
electricity that is reliable.
    And I am from New York City, and sometimes in New York City 
we don't always think about where that energy comes from, 
right. We just turn on the lights, we pull up at the gas pump, 
we go in the store, we buy our food. We never think about where 
it is actually produced or how it is produced.
    But lately my constituents are paying a lot more attention 
because they are getting those higher utility bills, they are 
seeing that, you know, gas prices are more today than they were 
2 years ago, and they are seeing that, you know, that 
transportation of food is actually driving the price of their 
products up at the supermarket.
    So I would love to ask, Mr. Brevetti, if you can comment on 
how much more is the potential for American energy production 
here in Oklahoma and America, how much more potential is there 
for us to be energy independent, and as you said, not rely on 
adversaries? It is important for our national security, it is 
important for our independence, and it is important to reduce 
prices for American families.
    And my second question would be, how are Biden's policies 
hindering that production and in the end increasing the cost of 
energy and food for my constituents back home in New York?
    Mr. BREVETTI. Both great questions. And, you know, 
typically we recover about 20 percent of the oil in place. We 
maybe get a little bit more an natural gas, you know, 50 to 75. 
So we are leaving a lot of hydrocarbons in the ground, and 
technology will help us recover though. So it is not going to 
go away. We are going to be able to develop that, and that is 
going to be able to help the consumer.
    From the standpoint of your second question, what can be 
done, I mean, you know, one of the things is pipelines, you 
know. I think your home State has blocked pipelines going 
through them, and we have such tremendous gas reserves that are 
in the Appalachian area, and so that gas has to come here. That 
gas comes through. And Oklahoma gas has to compete for space in 
the pipelines, whereas that gas could go to the East Coast and 
be made into LNG, sent overseas. It could be used to heat the 
homes there and help people flourish.
    Mr. MALLIOTAKIS. You mentioned something interesting. When 
you mentioned pipeline, I automatically thought about the 
Keystone Pipeline, right, which would have created thousands of 
jobs, including here in Oklahoma. How is the cancellation of 
the Keystone Pipeline affecting American workers here, and how 
is it also sending a message that disincentivize private 
investment to expand the energy industry here?
    Mr. BREVETTI. Well, it did all that. It was a job killer, 
as we are aware, the cancellation of the Keystone. It also kind 
of slapped one of our best allies, our closest--our neighbor to 
the north in the face. You know, there was so much investment 
done. This was a way for Canada to be able to market their 
products to a place where they have a product, we have 
consumers. And I will point out that there is not a safer way 
to move oil than in a pipeline. I think we have seen what has 
happened with the railroads here lately. A lot of oil gets 
moved by railroads, and that is not safe, so, yes.
    Mr. MALLIOTAKIS. Is American energy or American oil, I 
should say, is it dirtier than Russian oil or Venezuelan oil or 
Saudi Arabian oil, Iranian oil?
    Mr. BREVETTI. You know, that is a good question. Without 
getting down into the weeds, most of American crude being 
produced right now is what is called fairly light and sweet. It 
is low in H2S, which makes it sour. It is also fairly light 
compared to those countries you mentioned, such as Venezuela. 
And when you produce crude in a foreign country, it is not 
produced as clean and safely, but now you have to move it on 
tankers and that has a carbon footprint for sure.
    Mr. MALLIOTAKIS. So American oil is cleaner, and it costs 
less to transport and it is cleaner to transport?
    Mr. BREVETTI. Cleaner, safer, and nobody produces 
hydrocarbons in a more environmentally and greener fashion than 
U.S. producers.
    Mr. MALLIOTAKIS. Thank you.
    Chairman SMITH. I want to thank the gentlelady.
    I recognize the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Carey.
    Mr. CAREY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I want to thank the ranking member as well for having this 
bipartisan hearing today.
    I think it is great to be in Oklahoma. We had a great time 
in West Virginia.
    I want to follow up on a couple of issues as it relates to 
energy, following along the questioning. But looking at 
Oklahoma, and I know the Chairman Lucas and Mr. Hern has 
pointed this out, as well in your testimony, but there were 
$64.9 billion in the State's gross domestic product that came 
from the oil and gas industry. $2.5 billion in taxes, 27 
percent of Oklahoma's State GDP comes from the oil and gas 
industry. 16.7 percent of the State is tied working to the oil 
and gas industry.
    The other thing that you mentioned briefly in your 
testimony but I think it is important to note, that over $2 
billion, $2 billion were returned to property owners in terms 
of royalties. That is major. The other issue is that for every 
one oil and gas producing job in the State of Oklahoma and for 
the rest of the United States, there are roughly two other 
spinoff jobs.
    So why did I want to put out all those numbers? While we 
were going through the testimony, I wanted to pull up the top 
oil producing, oil and gas producing States. And they are not 
red States. They are not blue States. They are red, white, and 
blue States. Texas is number one, New Mexico is number two, 
North Dakota was number three, Alaska was number four, Oklahoma 
was number five.
    And we saw what a big portion of Oklahoma's economy is 
derived from oil and gas production. Number six was Colorado.
    My dear friend across the aisle, you will be surprised, 
California was actually number 7, Wyoming number 8, Utah number 
9, Louisiana number 10, Kansas 11. My State of Ohio with the 
Utica Shale reserves were making the charts, up to 12, and 
then, of course, following with Montana. What we have seen, of 
course, is that oil and gas, oil and gas spin-up jobs are 
domestic, they grow the economy, and I think in your testimony 
you mentioned that you had positions up to $100,000 that you 
just can't fill.
    The other thing I want to point out is part of oil and gas, 
I am a firm believer if something is not grown it is mined. And 
so if you look in terms of what does that mean for oil 
production, there is a lot of moly that goes into that, borate 
goes into that, phosphate mining goes for fertilizer, all of 
these, and they have an average income of about $85,000 for 
every one of those people that mines those products.
    So saying all those things, one other thing I want to point 
out to my colleague here to the left mentioned the price going 
up. Some interesting numbers. In December of 2020, dollars per 
thousand cubic feet of natural gas--listen to these numbers--
December of 2020, $4.11. Today--or in December of just a couple 
months ago, $8.23. It has doubled. So we have a misguided 
energy policy, and I am so glad that we are here talking about 
the things that are really affecting the American public.
    I am going to ask you a question just real quick on the oil 
and gas side of things if you don't mind, because I like many 
of--Mr. Hern pointed out people that don't know a lot. I come 
from the energy production side of things in my private career. 
Can you explain, and I think you mentioned it in your 
testimony, but you explain the percent depletion and how that 
relates to smaller oil and gas producers and why it is so 
important.
    Mr. BREVETTI. Yes. Certainly. I am not an accountant. I am 
an engineer. However, we depend upon our participants who co-
invest with us. They depend upon certain things. And we 
mentioned about the IDCs, which is the intangible drilling 
costs. But there is also a depletion allowance. And there is 
cost depletion up front. But there is also percentage 
depletion. So percentage depletion--which I think has been in 
question and has been on the crosshairs of some people.
    Percentage depletion, if you think about it this way, when 
you plant a crop one year, you can go back and replant it the 
next year. But with our industry, what we pull out of the 
ground this year is gone. It is like if you had a closet filled 
with some type of asset. You know, make them gold bars, or make 
them Bitcoins. You are pulling them out. They are not there 
once you pulled them out. So that is what the depletion 
allowance addressed.
    Mr. CAREY. You are constantly using your asset. You are 
depleting your asset.
    Mr. BREVETTI. You are using up your assets. At some point, 
it is gone. So the depletion allowance, I view it as not a--it 
is not a handout. It is saying, hey, wait a minute. What you 
had to start with, you don't have anymore. So we are going to 
let you take the deduction for that. You know, you are selling 
off an asset.
    Mr. CAREY. Thank you.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman SMITH. Thank you, Representative.
    I want to thank the witnesses again for your testimony and 
for being here. I want to thank express ranges--Express 
Clydesdales for hosting the event. I want to thank you, Ranking 
Member, for your attendance. And I want to thank every member 
for your attendance.
    These field hearings, I believe, are a great way for us to 
get closer to different areas of the country that we typically 
wouldn't see when we are in Washington. And so I appreciate the 
time and commitment that each and every one of these 24 members 
took to be here.
    Please be advised that members have two weeks to submit 
written questions to be answered later in writing. Those 
questions and your answers will be made part of the formal 
hearing record.
    With that, the committee stands adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 11:03 a.m., the committee was adjourned.]
      

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