[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                         UNEARTHING INNOVATION:
                    THE FUTURE OF SUBSURFACE SCIENCE
                  AND TECHNOLOGY IN THE UNITED STATES

=======================================================================
                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                         SUBCOMMITTEE ON ENERGY

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE,
                             AND TECHNOLOGY

                                 OF THE

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                             JULY 26, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-22

                               __________

 Printed for the use of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology
 
 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

       Available via the World Wide Web: http://science.house.gov
       
                               __________

                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
52-987PDF                  WASHINGTON : 2024                    
          
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              COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY

                  HON. FRANK LUCAS, Oklahoma, Chairman
BILL POSEY, Florida                  ZOE LOFGREN, California, Ranking 
RANDY WEBER, Texas                       Member
BRIAN BABIN, Texas                   SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon
JIM BAIRD, Indiana                   HALEY STEVENS, Michigan
DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida              JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York
MIKE GARCIA, California              DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
STEPHANIE BICE, Oklahoma             ERIC SORENSEN, Illinois
JAY OBERNOLTE, California            ANDREA SALINAS, Oregon
CHUCK FLEISCHMANN, Tennessee         VALERIE FOUSHEE, North Carolina
DARRELL ISSA, California             KEVIN MULLIN, California
RICK CRAWFORD, Arkansas              JEFF JACKSON, North Carolina
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York             EMILIA SYKES, Ohio
RYAN ZINKE, Montana                  MAXWELL FROST, Florida
SCOTT FRANKLIN, Florida              YADIRA CARAVEO, Colorado
DALE STRONG, Alabama                 SUMMER LEE, Pennsylvania
MAX MILLER, Ohio                     JENNIFER McCLELLAN, Virginia
RICH McCORMICK, Georgia              TED LIEU, California
MIKE COLLINS, Georgia                SEAN CASTEN, Illinois,
BRANDON WILLIAMS, New York             Vice Ranking Member
TOM KEAN, New Jersey                 PAUL TONKO, New York
VACANCY
                                 ------                                

                         Subcommittee on Energy

               HON. BRANDON WILLIAMS, New York, Chairman
RANDY WEBER, Texas                   JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York 
JIM BAIRD, Indiana                       Ranking Member
STEPHANIE BICE, Oklahoma             SUMMER LEE, Pennsylvania
CHUCK FLEISCHMANN, Tennessee         DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York             ERIC SORENSEN, Illinois
MAX MILLER, Ohio                     ANDREA SALINAS, Oregon
TOM KEAN, New Jersey                 VALERIE FOUSHEE, North Carolina
                         
                         
                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                             July 26, 2023

                                                                   Page

Hearing Charter..................................................     2

                           Opening Statements

Statement by Representative Frank Lucas, Chairman, Committee on 
  Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives..     7
    Written Statement............................................     8

Statement by Representative Jamaal Bowman, Ranking Member, 
  Subcommittee on Energy, Committee on Science, Space, and 
  Technology, U.S. House of Representatives......................     9
    Written Statement............................................    10

Written statement by Representative Zoe Lofgren, Ranking Member, 
  Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of 
  Representatives................................................    11

                               Witnesses:

Dr. Alexandra Hakala, Senior Fellow, Geologic and Environmental 
  Systems, National Energy Technology Laboratory, U.S. Department 
  of Energy
    Oral Statement...............................................    12
    Written Statement............................................    14

Mr. Ben Serrurier, Government Affairs and Policy Manager, Fervo 
  Energy
    Oral Statement...............................................    25
    Written Statement............................................    27

Dr. Kevin M. Rosso, Associate Director, Physical Sciences 
  Division, Pacific Northwest National Laboratory
    Oral Statement...............................................    35
    Written Statement............................................    37

Dr. Haruko Murakami Wainwright, Norman C. Rasmussen Career 
  Development Professor, Assistant Professor of Nuclear Science 
  and Engineering, and Assistant Professor of Civil and 
  Environmental Engineering, Massachusetts Institute of 
  Technology
    Oral Statement...............................................    40
    Written Statement............................................    42

Ms. Allyson Book, Chief Sustainability Officer, Baker Hughes
    Oral Statement...............................................    49
    Written Statement............................................    51

Discussion.......................................................    56

              Appendix: Additional Material for the Record

Documents submitted by the Western Governors' Association
    Policy Resolution 2022-01, ``Energy in the West''............    74
    ``The Heat Beneath Our Feet: The Initiative of Colorado 
      Governor Jared Polis''.....................................    81

 
                         UNEARTHING INNOVATION:
                    THE FUTURE OF SUBSURFACE SCIENCE
                  AND TECHNOLOGY IN THE UNITED STATES

                              ----------                              


                        WEDNESDAY, JULY 26, 2023

                  House of Representatives,
                            Subcommittee on Energy,
               Committee on Science, Space, and Technology,
                                                   Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:24 p.m., in 
room 2318 of the Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Frank 
Lucas presiding.
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairman Lucas. The Committee on Energy will come to order. 
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare recess of 
the Subcommittee at any time.
    Welcome to today's hearing entitled ``Unearthing 
Innovation: The Future of Subsurface Science and Technology in 
the United States.'' And before I recognize myself for five 
minutes in an opening statement, I would simply note that our 
Subcommittee Chairman, Mr. Williams, is under the weather, and 
I and other Members on the Republican side will be tag-teaming 
presiding today over this hearing. And we expect him to be back 
very promptly.
    That said, today, the Energy Subcommittee will explore the 
status of U.S. subsurface science and technology research, a 
field of study that's highly relevant for Americans all around 
the country, including those in my home State of Oklahoma. Our 
country has significant subsurface energy resources, and, if 
harnessed correctly, these resources have the capacity to 
provide all Americans with clean, baseload power and secure 
energy storage for generations to come.
    Subsurface science encompasses a broad range of 
technologies and energy sources, ranging from next-generation 
mining and mineral extraction to advanced geothermal energy and 
carbon sequestration. A strong understanding of subsurface 
systems is essential not only for harnessing today's resources, 
but for expanding our clean energy portfolio, sustaining 
critical domestic energy supplies, and ensuring that the long-
term storage of carbon dioxide and nuclear waste.
    Despite significant advances in recent years, the 
fundamental and applied research in these fields faces unique 
challenges associated with accessing the subsurface. That's why 
robust support for subsurface R&D (research and development) is 
critical for U.S. energy independence and national security. On 
the Science Committee, we prioritize the fundamental and early 
stage research that leads to groundbreaking technologies, and 
subsurface science is truly one of these areas, a 
multidisciplinary field of study that maximizes return on 
investment by advancing several clean energy pathways at once. 
This is an important segment of our all-of-the-above clean 
energy strategy.
    While I look forward to hearing from our subsurface experts 
here today, I'm particularly pleased to see representation from 
the U.S. geothermal industry. Advanced geothermal technologies 
have the potential to transform the U.S. energy sector. 
Geothermal is a source of clean and renewable energy that is 
always on. Yet, although the United States leads the world in 
geothermal power production, geothermal still contributes less 
than one percent of the total utility scale U.S. electricity 
generation. While I've seen the value of geothermal energy in 
my district with Oklahoma's thriving geothermal heat pumps 
industry, more work needs to be done to allow the rest of the 
country to access the full power of this resource. federally 
funded research programs at the Department of Energy (DOE) have 
a history of paving the way for industry innovation. It is 
critically important to our clean energy future that we have 
the support they need to pursue research that industry cannot 
undertake. That's why, three years ago, the Science Committee 
worked to get my bill, the Advanced Geothermal Research and 
Development Act, signed into law as a part of the bipartisan 
Energy Act of 2020. This legislation provided DOE with a 
comprehensive reauthorization of its geothermal technologies 
R&D activities, including its Frontier Observatory for Research 
in Geothermal Energy, FORGE as some of us call it, program, 
directing DOE to partner with industry and academia to improve 
the next generation of geothermal energy systems.
    Just last week, a participant in the FORGE program, Fervo 
Energy here with us today--you can correct me on that--
announced a record advanced achievement of an enhanced 
geothermal system (EGS) site. I hope that this afternoon we can 
get a clearer picture of the outcome of some of these kinds of 
investments and recommendations for appropriate next steps. I 
also look forward to our larger discussions that will improve 
our understanding of the subsurface environment that both DOE 
and U.S. industry are advancing groundbreaking activities to 
meet our present and future energy resource needs.
    Recently, I was fortunate enough to visit Baker Hughes' 
research facilities in Oklahoma and saw firsthand the potential 
for industry collaboration and technology transfer between 
subsurface energy sectors and applications. If we want to 
ensure a diverse portfolio of clean energy technologies now and 
in the future, we in Congress should prioritize this kind of 
important fundamental research and partnership.
    I want to thank our witnesses for the testimony, and I look 
forward to a very productive discussion.
    [The prepared statement of Chairman Lucas follows:]

    Good afternoon. Today, the Energy Subcommittee will explore 
the status of U.S. subsurface science and technology research, 
a field of study that is highly relevant for Americans around 
the country, including in my home state of Oklahoma.
    Our country has significant subsurface energy resources, 
and, if harnessed correctly, these resources have the 
capability to provide all Americans with clean baseload power 
and secure energy storage for generations to come.
    Subsurface science encompasses a broad range of 
technologies and energy sources, ranging from next generation 
mining and minerals extraction to advanced geothermal energy 
and carbon sequestration.
    A strong understanding of subsurface systems is essential, 
not only for harnessing today's resources, but also for 
expanding our clean energy portfolio, sustaining critical 
domestic supply chains, and ensuring the long-term storage of 
carbon dioxide and nuclear waste.
    Despite significant advances in recent years, the 
fundamental and applied research in these fields faces unique 
challenges associated with accessing the subsurface. That's why 
robust support for subsurface R&D is critical for U.S. energy 
independence and national security.
    On the Science Committee, we prioritize the fundamental and 
early-stage research that leads to groundbreaking technologies. 
And subsurface science is truly one of these areas, a 
multidisciplinary field of study that maximizes return on 
investment by advancing several key clean energy pathways at 
once.
    It is an important segment of our all-of-the-above clean 
energy strategy.
    While I look forward to hearing from all our subsurface 
experts here today, I'm particularly pleased to see 
representation from the U.S. geothermal industry.
    Advanced geothermal technologies have the potential to 
transform the U.S. energy sector. Geothermal is a source of 
clean and renewable energy that is always ``on.''
    Yet although the United States leads the world in 
geothermal power production, geothermal still contributes less 
than one percent to the total utility-scale U.S. electricity 
generation.
    While I've seen the value of geothermal energy in my 
district with Oklahoma's thriving geothermal heat pumps 
industry, more work needs to be done to allow the rest of the 
country to access the full power of this resource.
    Federally funded research programs at the Department of 
Energy (DOE) have a history of paving the way for industry 
innovation.
    It is critically important to our clean energy future that 
they have the support they need to pursue research that 
industry cannot undertake.
    That's why, three years ago, the Science Committee worked 
to get my bill, the Advanced Geothermal Research and 
Development Act, signed into law as part of the bipartisan 
Energy Act of 2020.
    This legislation provided DOE with a comprehensive 
reauthorization of its geothermal technologies R&D activities, 
including its Frontier Observatory for Research in Geothermal 
Energy (FORGE) program, directing DOE to partner with industry 
and academia to improve the next generation of geothermal 
energy systems.
    Just last week, a participant of the FORGE program, Fervo 
Energy--here with us today--announced a record achievement for 
an enhanced geothermal system site.
    I hope that this afternoon, we can get a clear picture of 
the outcome of some of these kinds of investments, and 
recommendations for appropriate next steps.
    I also look forward to our larger discussions that will 
improve our understanding of the subsurface environment and how 
DOE and U.S. industry are advancing groundbreaking activities 
to meet our present and future energy resource needs.
    Recently, I was fortunate enough to visit Baker Hughes' 
research facilities in Oklahoma and saw firsthand the potential 
for industry collaboration and technology transfer between 
subsurface energy sectors and applications.
    If we want to ensure a diverse portfolio of clean energy 
technologies now and in the future, we in Congress should 
prioritize this kind of important fundamental research and 
partnerships.
    I want to thank our witnesses for their testimony and I 
look forward to a productive discussion.

    Chairman Lucas. And with that, I now recognize the Ranking 
Member, the gentleman from New York, for his opening statement.
    Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, for convening 
us here today. And thank you to our panel of expert witnesses 
for appearing before this Committee to talk about a topic that 
is relevant to several technologies that we must use to enable 
our clean energy future.
    Understanding the natural processes of the Earth and how we 
can sustainably harness its resources is essential to human 
well-being, and a lot of our unanswered questions lay in the 
rock and soil beneath our feet in the subsurface of the Earth. 
There too can be found one of our most promising technologies 
for building a climate-safe future. Geothermal energy 
technology allows us to utilize the warmth naturally captured 
in the subsurface of the Earth to produce clean energy. We can 
even use that heat directly to enable industrial processes that 
need high temperatures to heat our homes.
    Many communities in my district are pursuing the creation 
of thermal energy networks to efficiently bring geothermal 
power to clusters of public buildings and affordable housing, 
which is very exciting. I am pleased to see President Biden's 
Administration embrace geothermal energy, and I'm proud to have 
joined with my colleagues here on the Science Committee to 
support efforts to advance the technology.
    I also understand that there has been a recent breakthrough 
in geothermal technology development that one of our witnesses 
here today can talk extensively about, and I greatly look 
forward to that discussion.
    Historically, a lot of the subsurface technology R&D 
supported by the Department of Energy has focused on extracting 
fossil fuels from the ground. We have learned a great deal on 
how to harness resources in the subsurface, which can 
thankfully now be applied to clean energy, as with geothermal. 
This body of knowledge can also help us assess if and how 
carbon can be safely stored in the underground.
    But as we work to transition to a new clean energy system, 
we must build in principles of equity and justice at every step 
of the process. And I'm happy to see the President focusing on 
exactly that through his Justice40 Initiative, which ensures 
that 40 percent of the benefits from our Federal investments, 
including science R&D, flow to the communities that have been 
historically hit hardest by fossil fuel pollution.
    The Department of Energy has also stewarded decades of 
subsurface research related to understanding natural 
terrestrial processes, such as the carbon and water cycles and 
on applying the science to help understand how Manhattan 
Project experiments impacted the environment. This emphasis on 
biogeochemistry and material science not only helps us to 
understand our responsibility to manage legacy contaminants, 
but also helps us further the Earth sciences in general and 
their application to climate action. This research that the 
Department supports is part of a global effort to understand 
and reduce the damage humans are causing to the Earth. It is 
critical that we continue to fund these Federal investments in 
climate science.
    With that, I want to say thank you again to the Chair and 
to our panel of distinguished witnesses for putting on this 
hearing today, and I yield back.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Bowman follows:]

    Thank you, Chairman Williams, for convening this hearing 
today. And thank you to our panel of expert witnesses for 
appearing before the Committee to talk about a topic that is 
relevant to several technologies that we must use to enable our 
clean energy future. Understanding the natural processes of the 
earth and how we can sustainably harness its resources is 
essential to human well-being. And a lot of our unanswered 
questions lay in the rock and soil beneath our feet, in the 
subsurface of the earth.
    There, too, can be found one of our most promising 
technologies for building a climate-safe future. Geothermal 
technology allows us to utilize the warmth naturally captured 
in the subsurface of the earth to produce clean energy. We can 
even use that heat directly to enable industrial processes that 
need high temperatures, or to heat our homes. Many communities 
in my district are pursuing the creation of thermal energy 
networks to efficiently bring geothermal power to clusters of 
public buildings and affordable housing. I am pleased to see 
PresidentBiden's administration embrace geothermal energy and 
am proud to have joined with my colleagues here on the Science 
Committee to support efforts to advance the technology. I also 
understand that there has been a recent breakthrough in 
geothermal technology development that one of our witnesses 
here today can talk extensively about, and I greatly look 
forward to that discussion.
    Historically, a lot of the subsurface technology R&D 
supported by the Department of Energy has focused on extracting 
fossil fuels from the ground. We have learned a great deal on 
how to harness resources in the subsurface which can thankfully 
now be applied to clean energy, as with geothermal. This body 
of knowledge can also help us assess if and how carbon can be 
safely stored underground. But as we work to transition to a 
new, clean energy system, we must buildin principles of equity 
and justice at every step of the process. And I'm happy to see 
the President focusing on exactly that through his Justice 40 
initiative, which ensures that 40 percent of the benefits from 
our federal investments, including science R&D, flow to the 
communities that have historically been hit hardest by fossil 
fuel pollution.
    The Department of Energy has also stewarded decades of 
subsurface research related to understanding natural 
terrestrial processes, such as the carbon and water cycles, and 
on applying this science to help understand how Manhattan 
Project experiments impacted the environment. This emphasis on 
biogeochemistry and materials science not only helps us to 
understand our responsibility to manage legacy contaminants, 
but also helps us further the earth sciences in general and 
their application to climate action. This research that the 
Department supports is part of a global effort to understand 
and reduce the damage humans are causing to the earth. It is 
critical that we continue to fund these federal investments in 
climate science.
    With that, I want to say thank you again to Mr. Williams 
and to our panel of distinguished witnesses for putting on this 
hearing today, and I yield back.

    Mrs. Bice [presiding]. Thank you, Ranking Member Bowman.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Lofgren follows:]

    Thank you, Chairman Williams, for holding today's hearing, 
and I would also like to welcome our distinguished panel of 
witnesses for being here to discuss this important topic.
    Climate change causes real and present threats to our 
constituents and communities. As the country strives to reach 
our goal of net-zero emissions as quickly as possible, we must 
broaden and accelerate our approach to advancing new 
technologies that will get us there. Just last month, this 
Committee held a hearing about the revolutionary potential that 
fusion energy has as a clean energy source--as we see every day 
in that giant fusion reactor in the sky called the sun. And 
today we are turning to subsurface science and examining our 
ability to unlock the immense geothermal energy resource that 
resides well below our feet.
    With help from the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, the 
Department of Energy is conducting important efforts to 
position the U.S. to use our subsurface resources effectively. 
But we all need to recognize that this is going to require a 
long-term effort to adequately improve our ability to assess, 
monitor, and access critical subsurface resources.
    While a lot of progress has been made in the past few 
years, we need to double down on this work now--and this 
Committee has the opportunity to help make that happen. A 
better understanding of the subsurface would not only pave the 
way to incorporating more geothermal energy into our electric 
grid, but also enable advancements in geologic carbon and 
hydrogen storage. All of these technologies are expected to 
play a substantial role in our clean energy future, so we 
really don't have time to waste.
    In addition, we will be discussing the importance of 
subsurface science in accelerating nuclear waste cleanup 
projects at legacy waste sites across the country, some of 
which date back to the Manhattan Project. The communities 
around these sites deserve safe and healthy environments, and 
we should be doing everything in our power to ensure that 
that's exactly what they have.
    For all of these reasons, I think this hearing is good step 
forward in improving our national capability for subsurface 
science for a broad range of important applications. I look 
forward to today's conversation, and thank the witnesses again 
for being here today.

    Mrs. Bice. And at this time, let me introduce our 
witnesses. Our first witness today is Dr. Alexandra Hakala, a 
Senior Fellow for Geologic and Environmental Systems at the 
National Energy Technology Laboratory (NETL). Our next witness 
is Mr. Ben Serrurier, the Government Affairs and Policy Manager 
for Fervo Energy. Our third witness, with a much easier-to-
pronounce name, is Dr. Kevin Rosso, the Associate Director of 
Physical Sciences Division for Geochemistry at Pacific 
Northwest National Laboratory (PNNL). Next is Dr. Haruko 
Murakami Wainwright, the Norman C. Rasmussen Career Development 
Professor, Assistant Professor of Nuclear Science and 
Engineering, and Assistant Professor of Civil and Environmental 
Engineering at MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology). And 
the last witness is Ms. Allyson Book, Chief Sustainability 
Officer for Baker Hughes.
    I now recognize Dr. Hakala for five minutes to present her 
testimony.

       TESTIMONY OF DR. ALEXANDRA HAKALA, SENIOR FELLOW,

              GEOLOGIC AND ENVIRONMENTAL SYSTEMS,

             NATIONAL ENERGY TECHNOLOGY LABORATORY,

                   U.S. DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY

    Dr. Hakala. Thank you, Congresswoman Bice, Ranking Member 
Bowman, and Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for this 
opportunity to testify on subsurface science and its vital role 
in understanding and harnessing the vast resources beneath our 
feet.
    I'm Dr. Alexandra Hakala, a Senior Research Physical 
Scientist and Acting Senior Fellow for Geologic and 
Environmental Systems, representing the National Energy 
Technology Laboratory, or NETL, within the U.S. Department of 
Energy.
    DOE plays an essential role in advancing subsurface R&D to 
secure America's energy future. Bringing together experts 
across scientific fields, DOE is focused on better 
understanding subsurface systems and optimizing their use to 
ensure clean and reliable energy sources for the Nation. 
Collaboration between DOE and the National Laboratories is 
essential to drive this progress in subsurface science.
    The DOE Science and Energy Innovation, or SEI, crosscut, 
funds research, development, demonstration, and deployment so 
we can assess, access, and monitor the subsurface more quickly 
and accurately. These advancements will allow key technologies 
in geothermal energy, geologic carbon storage, geologic 
hydrogen storage, sustainable critical mineral extraction, and 
geologic hydrogen sourcing to become market-competitive, 
scalable, and permanent clean energy solutions.
    The Office of Science's Advanced Scientific Computing 
Research (ASCR) and Basic Energy Sciences programs are 
supporting the fundamental research advancing our knowledge of 
the subsurface. Meanwhile, the Office of Fossil Energy and 
Carbon Management, or FECM, Carbon Transport and Storage 
Program has supported projects like the Regional Carbon 
Sequestration Partnerships, which conducted field tests to 
safely store more than 11 million metric tons of CO2 
and laid the foundation for regional initiative and commercial-
scale projects supported by the Carbon Storage Assurance 
Facility Enterprise known as the CarbonSAFE Initiative.
    Funded by the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law, CarbonSAFE 
pairs with the Carbon Basin Assessment and Storage Evaluation, 
or CarbonBASE, and Carbon Storage Technology Operations and 
Research, CarbonSTORE Initiatives, designed to advance each 
stage of carbon storage resources and projects as the CCS 
(carbon capture and storage) industry is implemented over time.
    The Carbon Transport and Storage Program also invests in 
small-scale CO2 injection and research on storage 
through mineralization. It's currently assessing potential 
storage resources and surface and subsurface locations 
nationwide. Proof-of-concept studies are being conducted in 
volcanic basins and offshore basalts, exploring unconventional 
storage resources to support regional decarbonization goals. 
Two multi-lab initiatives, the National Risk Assessment 
Partnership, or NRAP, and the Science-informed Machine Learning 
for Accelerating Real-Time Decisions initiative, or SMART, are 
working to reduce the uncertainty associated with geologic 
carbon sequestration.
    Meanwhile, the Energy Data eXchange, or EDX, maintains all 
data from the Carbon Transport and Storage Program, including 
NRAP and SMART tools, and enables users to find and apply 
relevant data for carbon storage analyses. EDX works with other 
agency data bases to provide comprehensive access to subsurface 
data. These resources support site selection, risk analysis, 
and decisionmaking processes.
    Finally, I want to emphasize the significance of our 
critical minerals and materials R&D and their potential to 
advance sustainable mining practices. The subsurface holds 
significant reserves of critical minerals, often inaccessible 
due to depth or mining limitations. Many of these un-mineable 
mineral resources can be unlocked using advanced subsurface 
imaging, detection, drilling, and fluid-handling technologies. 
The mines of the future will harness these advanced 
technologies, allowing for the extraction of mineral wealth 
with minimal surface and environmental impacts. As FECM's 
National Laboratory, NETL's R&D efforts align with this vision 
of a sustainable and environmentally responsible mineral 
extraction industry, strengthening America's position in 
critical minerals production.
    At the same time, the Office of Science, primarily through 
the Basic Energy Sciences, is supporting fundamental 
experimental and theoretical research to understand the basic 
properties of critical minerals and materials. This enables the 
development of enhanced extraction, separation, and processing 
methods, as well as discovery of substitutes for critical 
materials that will perform equally well or better in the 
technology applications we rely on.
    So thank you very much, Committee, for this opportunity to 
speak. And I'd like to highlight that through the collaboration 
between the DOE offices and the National Laboratories on these 
and other efforts, we are at the forefront of developing 
sustainable and efficient solutions for subsurface resource 
utilization and contributing to the Nation's energy security, 
environmental stewardship, and technological leadership.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to discuss these 
cutting-edge innovations, and I'm happy to answer any 
questions.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Hakala follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Dr. Hakala.
    Next up, I recognize Mr. Serrurier for five minutes for his 
testimony.

       TESTIMONY OF MR. BEN SERRURIER, GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS

                AND POLICY MANAGER, FERVO ENERGY

    Mr. Serrurier. Thank you, Representative Bice, Ranking 
Member Bowman, and Members of this Committee for the 
opportunity to be here today. My name is Ben Serrurier. I'm the 
Government Affairs and Policy Manager at Fervo Energy. We are 
developing enhanced geothermal systems to deliver 24/7 clean 
electricity. Our approach to EGS leverages drilling advances 
from the natural gas industry to increase production, reduce 
risk, and produce cost-competitive power from hot dry rock.
    Harnessing domestic resources, literally the heat beneath 
our feet, with American-made equipment and a homegrown 
workforce that pulls directly from America's world leading oil 
and gas industry, geothermal is a complete energy security 
solution that has a major role to play in the future electric 
grid.
    This hearing is taking place at an opportune moment. Last 
week, Fervo announced a major technological breakthrough, 
proving that enhanced geothermal is commercially viable and 
ready to scale. In removing the remaining technical barriers to 
expanding geothermal, America is in position to dominate the 
global market for this high-potential clean energy resource. 
This breakthrough reflects the important technological progress 
that has carried geothermal to this stage and shows the way 
forward toward realizing its huge potential.
    Enhanced geothermal today is in a similar place to the 
natural gas industry roughly 15 years ago on the cusp of the 
shale revolution. EGS benefits from the technology, experience, 
and skilled workforce of pure subsurface industries, and it 
will also benefit from following their commercialization 
pathway. Following the shale playbook, the next phase of 
innovation in geothermal will come from project standardization 
and modular development, driving down costs through learning 
and deployment. Fervo has demonstrated the effectiveness of EGS 
technology, and we now have the opportunity to perfect it.
    The Department of Energy and its national labs have been 
instrumental in pioneering the technologies and techniques that 
enabled first the shale gas boom and now breakthroughs in EGS. 
Expanding these research and deployment investments in 
geothermal is critical to meeting clean energy goals, while 
safeguarding grid reliability, strengthening domestic energy 
security, and creating high-paying jobs in manufacturing and 
subsurface development.
    In May, Fervo's commercial scale pilot project in northern 
Nevada produced 3.5 megawatts of geothermal energy and 
established itself as the first EGS project to achieve 
commercial viability. This breakthrough signifies the official 
commencement of what is likely to be yet another American-led 
energy revolution.
    Now, the key in tapping geothermal's potential is through 
optimizing our subsurface approach in the same way natural gas 
development utilizes standardized well designed to reduce 
drilling time and increase production. Fervo has already 
finished drilling its first well at a new field in southwest 
Utah for a plant that will total over 400 megawatts and come 
online before the end of the decade. And we're already seeing 
this learning curve in action. Across our four drilled wells, 
we've accomplished an 18 percent improvement in drilling 
performance. This indicates that greater cost reduction is yet 
still achievable.
    Federal support for early stage R&D has been instrumental 
in reaching this milestone, and Federal support for 
demonstration and deployment will be just as important in 
sustaining progress. Historically, funding for geothermal has 
lagged other clean firm energy technologies, despite its recent 
progress and large benefits per invested dollar. To that end, 
we are eager for the DOE Geothermal Technologies Office to 
invest its allocated funding from Fiscal Year 2023 
appropriations for EGS demonstration projects.
    While America is well-positioned to lead the geothermal 
revolution, other countries are catching up. A single $100 
million grant from the European Union to a project in Germany 
is by itself $16 million more than the Bipartisan 
Infrastructure Law provided to divide across all U.S. projects. 
And China's most recent five-year plan on renewable energy 
development includes a prominent role for Chinese geothermal 
development and generation. The U.S. must capitalize on its 
comparative advantage in subsurface technology, advanced 
manufacturing, and project development. And by increasing 
investment in EGS research and deployment will catalyze a wave 
of American-built geothermal across the globe.
    The shale gas revolution has shown us what is possible when 
the government agencies, national labs, and universities work 
together with industry to invest in subsurface exploration. 
That journey of technological innovation, commercial 
entrepreneurship, economic abundance, and energy security is 
now continuing in geothermal. Now that EGS has proven 
optimizing this technology through standardization and 
modularity will deliver affordable and reliable clean energy 
and jumpstart a globally significant American industry.
    Thank you again for the opportunity to speak with you 
today, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Serrurier follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Mr. Serrurier.
    And at this time, I recognize Dr. Kevin Russo--Rosso, 
excuse me--for five minutes for his testimony. Mr. Rosso, 
you're recognized.

                TESTIMONY OF DR. KEVIN M. ROSSO,

        ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, PHYSICAL SCIENCES DIVISION,

             PACIFIC NORTHWEST NATIONAL LABORATORY

    Dr. Rosso. Thank you. Thank you very much, Congresswoman 
Bice, Ranking Member Bowman, and Members of the Subcommittee. 
Thanks for the opportunity to testify today. I'm Dr. Kevin 
Rosso, Associate Director of the Physical Sciences Division for 
Geochemistry at the DOE's PNNL, Pacific Northwest National 
Laboratory. I lead a team of about 35 researchers on a range of 
topics like predicting rates of CO2 mineralization 
in the subsurface for storage, the chemical transformations of 
nuclear waste for processing, and the transport of hazardous 
materials in the subsurface. We focus on understanding the 
reaction mechanisms at their core to help make more reliable 
predictive models.
    I'll make two main points today. The first is that 
environments below ground are complex, and it's difficult for 
us to see everything that we need to see to be able to readily 
bring new energy systems online. But the good news is that 
areas where we need technical innovations are clear. The second 
is that to truly enable success at large scales will 
undoubtedly require a sustained multidisciplinary effort 
between national labs, universities, and industry, the kind 
that we just heard about. Enabling meaningful partnerships is 
important.
    So let me summarize why. First, it goes without saying that 
subsurface has so far been meeting most of our essential needs 
as a clean source of energy--as a source of energy, clean 
water, raw materials for construction, and critical elements. 
And we're really quite good at finding and unearthing these 
resources with relative ease. But we now hope to tap its 
abundant heat for clean geothermal energy. We also want to use 
it for energy storage from intermittent sources such as wind 
and solar, and for disposal of hazardous materials like excess 
CO2 and radioactive waste. To do these things at 
large scale safely, efficiently, and with minimal environmental 
impact brings new challenges.
    Pilot projects demonstrating promise had been exciting to 
watch unfold. This includes PNNL's Wallula CO2 
injection pilot in Washington, showing rapid carbon 
mineralization in the salt, below ground, and just recently, 
Fervo Energy's successful well test that we just heard about, 
which is fantastic.
    The subsurface is structurally and chemically complex, and 
we have limited ability to see important features or predict 
their physical and chemical responses to change. To create an 
enhanced geothermal system, for example, requires that we 
accurately drill deep into hard rock and there creates an 
interconnected and permeable fracture network between wells 
through which fluid can easily be circulated that brings up 
sufficient heat sustainably for years. All the while we've got 
to avoid triggering earthquakes, losing fluid, flow, or heat 
transfer over time. It is the need for predictive control and 
long-term reliability that makes it a new ballgame.
    Mastering this at the national scale requires that we learn 
how to overcome the many uncertainties involved in subsurface 
engineering, going beyond what industry can achieve alone. The 
DOE has been proactive in cultivating and supporting research 
to help fill critical gaps. Examples included SubTER initiative 
launched in 2014 that identified adaptive control of subsurface 
fractures and fluid flow as the core objective. A year later, 
the geosciences program at the Office of Basic Energy Sciences 
lead the report ``Controlling Subsurface Fractures and Fluid 
Flow: A Basic Research Agenda,'' to define the fundamental 
research needed to actually achieve this goal. But to be 
honest, we are now--we are just now getting underway with the 
R&D effort.
    Some of these research priorities were recently featured in 
funding opportunities from DOE's energy Earthshot Initiative, 
to which PNNL responded with a multi-institutional team to 
develop novel signal detection methods that could enable real-
time monitoring of the state of stress between boreholes for 
enhanced geothermal. But this is just one small piece of the 
larger team science effort truly needed to ultimately get us 
from explorers to masters.
    As research continues to onramp, I'd also like to emphasize 
the importance of keeping our R&D infrastructure at the 
bleeding edge. Key to this effect is ensuring that new and 
advanced experimental and computational capabilities continue 
at our national labs, universities, and DOE national user 
facilities. This will help keep us at the forefront and help us 
attract and retain top talent.
    To conclude, though largely overlooked, the subsurface 
provides most of the critical resources sustaining our present 
way of life, and it's now poised for the foundation--to be the 
foundation for our future. But our ambition to use it in new 
ways is a grand challenge, requiring a lasting commitment to 
basic and applied research.
    Thank you for the opportunity to provide the Committee with 
information on this topic. I'd be happy to answer any questions 
you may have.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Rosso follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Dr. Rosso.
    And at this time, I recognize Dr. Haruko Murakami 
Wainwright for your testimony. You are recognized for five 
minutes. Thank you.

          TESTIMONY OF DR. HARUKO MURAKAMI WAINWRIGHT,

       NORMAN C. RASMUSSEN CAREER DEVELOPMENT PROFESSOR,

             ASSISTANT PROFESSOR OF NUCLEAR SCIENCE

            AND ENGINEERING, AND ASSISTANT PROFESSOR

            OF CIVIL AND ENVIRONMENTAL ENGINEERING,

             MASSACHUSETTS INSTITUTE OF TECHNOLOGY

    Dr. Wainwright. Representative Bice, Ranking Member Bowman, 
and the Members of the Committee, thank you for the opportunity 
to speak with you today. As a researcher at MIT and previously 
at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory and University of 
California Berkeley, I have been involved in DOE's subsurface 
science-related programs for the past 15 years. I have 
conducted interdisciplinary research on such topics as water 
resource, soil and groundwater remediation, carbon dioxide 
storage, permafrost science, and nuclear waste disposal.
    The subsurface plays a critical role in our society. It 
provides much of our energy, as well as critical minerals 
needed for many parts of our economy. Groundwater is an 
important source of water for drinking and for industrial and 
agricultural use. The subsurface also provides spaces for 
isolated storage of nuclear waste, carbon dioxide, and others. 
My research has been focused on developing and applying 
statistical methods and artificial intelligence (AI) to improve 
the characterization, monitoring, and prediction of dynamic 
subsurface processes.
    The DOE Office of Science has a long history of supporting 
the development of subsurface modeling and simulation 
capabilities, taking advantage of the latest generation of 
high-performance computers and software libraries, which were 
developed through the Advanced Scientific Computing Research 
program. As a result, today, scientists can simulate thermal, 
hydrological, mechanical, chemical, and biological processes 
and their interactions within a detailed model of the 
subsurface.
    DOE's user facilities and observational sites are also 
essential resources for subsurface research. The user 
facilities have been used to discover vast and novel microbial 
communities in the subsurface and to visualize flow processes 
and chemical reactions in rock pore structures. The 
observational sites have enabled us to rapidly develop and test 
subsurface sensors and imaging technologies. Scientists can now 
map rock properties several hundred meters deep over an entire 
watershed and rapidly detect subsurface anomalies.
    The capabilities developed by DOE's basic research programs 
in subsurface science are proving their value across the 
agency. The Office of Environmental Management (EM) is using 
the sensor and simulation tools developed by the Office of 
Science to improve long-term groundwater monitoring at DOE's 
legacy sites, ensuring the stability of remediation systems 
while lowering their costs. Long-term subsurface simulation 
capabilities also support the spent nuclear fuel disposal 
program under the Office of Nuclear Energy, which requires 
waste isolation for longer than 10,000 years.
    The Office of Science is increasing its investment in the 
use of artificial intelligence in subsurface research. This 
rapidly evolving field has already made it possible to find 
patterns in very large datasets and has accelerated 
simulations. In 2021, I co-organized the Artificial 
Intelligence for Earth Systems Predictability Workshop, which 
explored how AI should be incorporated across the Earth systems 
modeling program. I believe that DOE can make a unique 
contribution in this topic, having great strengths in both 
computing and observation capabilities.
    Another promising new area of research is the use of local 
subsurface sensors to improve environmental monitoring in 
regions where mining waste disposal or storage or other 
commercial subsurface activities are underway or under 
consideration. These are often in rural places that are far 
from scientific centers. STEM (science, technology, 
engineering, and mathematics) education and community science 
programs could be built around these datasets from sensor 
networks, empowering local communities to monitor and protect 
their own environment.
    In summary, DOE programs support work at the national labs 
and in academia and play an essential role in advanced 
subsurface science and technologies for various applications. 
They are improving our ability to take advantage of subsurface 
resources and to minimize and remediate any environmental 
impacts.
    Thank you again. I welcome any questions you may have. 
Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Wainwright follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Dr. Murakami Wainwright.
    And finally, we have Dr.--I'm sorry, Ms. Allyson Book, who 
is recognized for five minutes for her testimony.

                 TESTIMONY OF MS. ALLYSON BOOK,

           CHIEF SUSTAINABILITY OFFICER, BAKER HUGHES

    Ms. Book. Thank you to each of the Members of the Committee 
for the opportunity to address you all today and for your 
efforts to highlight the importance of subsurface sciences. My 
name is Allyson Anderson Book, and I'm the Chief Sustainability 
Officer for Baker Hughes. I'm also a trained geoscientist. I 
oversee our corporate sustainability program and drive the 
company's energy transition. My team supports our growth areas 
that include carbon capture and storage, hydrogen, and 
geothermal. Through focused research, development, and 
demonstration activities, we work to identify public 
partnerships, consortia, and other opportunities for enabling 
the scale up of our technology and services.
    Subsurface science and technology is used today to 
characterize subsurface for energy production and natural 
resource extraction to determine the best sites for waste 
disposals--many people here have said--and numerous other 
applications. federally funded R&D programs have supported real 
innovation in each of these areas and remain essential today.
    We see three key areas where we need subsurface R&D--and it 
remains critical--that is CCS hydrogen storage and, not 
surprising, geothermal, as we've heard on the Committee today. 
CCS is a critical energy of research as it's essential for 
reducing emissions within the energy, steel, cement, and 
petrochem sectors. We're active throughout the entire CCS value 
chain from project design to post-combustion capture, 
compressions, subsurface storage, and long-term integrity and 
monitoring of a reservoir.
    Hydrogen storage is an emerging area of focus thanks to new 
funding from hydrogen hubs and the section 45V tax credit. 
Important work remains to understand how to safely control and 
monitor geologic hydrogen storage, as well as robust and 
reliable sensors are needed for the subsurface monitoring.
    Additional geothermal R&D is needed to further develop the 
enhanced and advanced geothermal systems, as well as production 
of geothermal energy from oil and gas wells. Last year, we 
helped to launch the Wells2Watts consortium to repurpose oil 
and gas wells at the end of their productive life for 
geothermal energy. We're using test wells at our Energy 
Innovation Center co-located at the Hamm Institute for American 
Energy in Oklahoma City. This is where we simulate high-
temperature subsurface environments for testing closed-loop 
systems for many different kinds of well configurations. We 
validate engineering performance models and provide scale for 
field pilot efforts.
    The Department of Energy and its various programs provide 
an essential function for facilitating American technology 
development, and we have long history of collaboration 
together. Our key R&D areas have included enhanced geothermal 
tech, novel additive manufacturing approaches, and gas and flow 
sensors and monitoring technologies. We're also involved with 
the CarbonSAFE program projects at the Office of Fossil Energy, 
and that collaboration is instrumental to our long-term CCS 
strategy, particularly in the subsurface.
    I'd like to underscore three challenges for your 
consideration here today as you look to buildupon American 
leadership in the space. First is the need to sustain if not 
expand support for each of these programs. A stable private--
or, excuse me, a stable Federal program produces stronger 
broad-based partnerships with the private sector and 
accelerates innovative scientific progress that would be 
difficult to achieve in isolation. Additional funding is most 
needed related to high-temperature downhole sensors and 
drilling technology for geothermal wells. Funding for 
geothermal at similar magnitude, as enjoyed by the CCS program 
under CarbonSAFE, as well as DOE's hydrogen hubs, would enable 
the industry to bring crucial new technologies to scale.
    Second, I respectfully ask you to consider whether policies 
around intellectual property (IP) should be adjusted to reflect 
the difference between early stage R&D and later commercial 
demonstration projects. Current policies establish government 
rights to subject inventions that occur pursuant to grants. And 
this reasonable when the government directly funds the R&D 
leading to the subject invention. The intention of 
demonstration projects, however, is not to develop new 
inventions, but rather to scale up existing technology, so it's 
a different purpose. These technologies may include prototypes 
that are modified during the course of construction and testing 
but were developed entirely by the private sector. Negotiating 
to overcome a department's rights in this context can create 
challenges for equipment manufacturers who would otherwise own 
the IP.
    So my last point, as the clock winds down, we understand 
this lies--this last point--beyond the Committee's 
jurisdiction, but I wanted to raise section 174 of the tax 
code, which, since 1954, has allowed companies to deduct their 
R&D expenses in the same year in which they were incurred as an 
incentive to encourage investment in domestic R&D. As of 
January 2022, companies must now amortize these expenses over 
at least five years or more if it's international, making it 
more expensive to invest in R&D in tighter market conditions 
like the ones that we see today. So we urge you to pass 
legislation to reinstate the immediate deductibility of R&D 
expenses.
    Thanks again for the opportunity to present this testimony 
and share our views here today. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Book follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Ms. Book. And I would just add I 
appreciate you mentioning the Hamm Institute for American 
Energy, which is located in Congressional District 5, mine, so 
thank you for that.
    At this time, I thank all the witnesses for their 
testimony, and I recognize myself now for five minutes for 
questions.
    Both the University of Oklahoma and Oklahoma State 
University have been heavily engaged in research, partnering 
with the Department of Energy to better model potential 
geothermal sites, assess how the utilization of abandoned oil 
and gas wells can lower costs for geothermal energy producers, 
as well as improving fluid hydraulics and enhanced geothermal 
systems. These types of research have had the potential to make 
Oklahoma a global leader in geothermal production, while 
exporting these technologies around the globe.
    Dr. Hakala, if I could start with you, how does the DOE's--
how does the DOE plan on further supporting academic 
partnerships in these areas?
    Dr. Hakala. Well, the Department of Energy has a huge focus 
with the Subsurface Energy Innovations crosscut, and so part of 
that is making sure we can leverage knowledge and understanding 
across all of the different offices within the Department of 
Energy. That also involves working with the National 
Laboratories and academic partnerships as part of that effort. 
Part of the Energy Earthshot Initiative includes government-
academic partnership opportunities moving forward, so there--
the expectation is that there will be opportunities in the 
future to look at that.
    Mrs. Bice. Dr. Rosso, do you have any sort of comment on 
that as well, those partnerships?
    Dr. Rosso. I'd have to say that on the topic of the project 
in Oklahoma that was referenced I can't speak to, but the 
partnerships are incredibly important, particularly between 
national labs and universities. And the initiative that Dr. 
Hakala mentioned is--you know, it's got its roots, I believe, 
in the SubTER initiative of DOE and is continuing on in this 
new life, this revived form today. And it's great. It's exactly 
what we need, maybe more writ large, I would say, but it's--
yes, it's a very good topic.
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you.
    Mr. Serrurier, you have highlighted the potential for 
enhanced geothermal systems moving forward and the great 
breakthrough that your company has recently made. How have 
partnerships with academic institutions made these types of 
innovations possible?
    Mr. Serrurier. Thank you. It's a great question. And it's--
our company is made possible because of partnerships between 
industry, national labs, DOE, and academia. Our co-founders met 
in different programs at Stanford University, and so it really 
was born out of an academic institution. And so when we look to 
do research that's applied, we're often partnering with a whole 
bunch of technical schools. When we apply for funding from DOE 
for grants, a lot of that is joint between, you know, School of 
Mines. University of Oklahoma obviously has huge opportunities 
here. Oklahoma State has the Center for Excellence. So there's 
a lot of different schools, UT (University of Texas) Austin, 
the list goes on, but it's that they bring a lot of experience 
and knowledge. We bring a whole bunch of sort of 
entrepreneurial perspective on what's going to be commercially 
important. And that combination pushes science forward that 
then allows it to be applied and grow in the marketplace as 
well.
    Mrs. Bice. Do you think that in some ways we have to be 
careful about sort of fragmenting all of this research across 
so many institutions that it kind of--it may have sort of a 
negative impact in that it's--it--the focus is lost in some 
ways?
    Mr. Serrurier. I can understand the concern, but I would 
say coming from the--the geothermal industry, frankly, has been 
historically fairly small and funded at a fairly low level, and 
being spread thin is potentially a concern, but more is always 
better. And so when we can bring more, you know, different 
genetic diversity, so to speak, in an intellectual sense to the 
problem, it can only lead to good things across--especially 
across the many cross-sectoral applications that we can see for 
geothermal. So I'd say it's a ``yes, and'' situation with R&D 
and deployment in geothermal right now.
    Mrs. Bice. Perfect, thank you for that.
    Another research effort at Oklahoma State, funding was 
awarded for the university to work with both the Oak Ridge 
National Labs (ORNL) and in the Pacific Northwest National Lab 
to expand the deployment of geothermal heating and cooling 
tech. Dr. Rosso, you sort of alluded to this briefly, but the--
you know, the role of academics, I think, specifically for your 
NTCs has a significant role. Would you agree with that?
    Dr. Rosso. Nominally, I would, but to be honest, I'd be 
guessing. My side of the house at PNNL is very fundamental 
basic research. There's an applied research section that I 
believe has the connection that you're talking about with 
Oklahoma. So just to be--you know, full disclosure, I can't 
really elaborate on this particular topic. But just a general 
yes of enthusiasm about the collaborations that have already 
been, you know, the focus of your question really.
    Mrs. Bice. Perfect.
    Dr. Rosso. Yes.
    Mrs. Bice. I appreciate that.
    And at this time, I will yield my time and now recognize 
the Ranking Member, Mr. Bowman, for questions for five minutes.
    Mr. Bowman. Thank you so much, Madam Chair.
    My first question goes to Mr. Serrurier. Congratulations on 
Fervo's recent breakthrough. In your testimony, you cited work 
completed by DOE and the National Renewable Energy Laboratory 
on the prevalence of geothermal resources in the United States. 
There has been much success in the Western States with current 
geothermal techniques and technologies, including your 
company's recent groundbreaking success in Nevada. However, 
there are numerous geological differences between the rock 
formations under our feet in Washington, D.C., today, and those 
under Western wells like your company's Project Red. What needs 
to be done in terms of technological advancements to ensure 
that eligible geothermal resources here in the Eastern portions 
of the United States can be tapped?
    Mr. Serrurier. Thank you for the question, Ranking Member 
Bowman. This the exciting thing that we're super, you know, 
excited about at Fervo, which is that with this advancement 
that we've shown in northern Nevada, the ultimate goal is 
geothermal everywhere. And what needs to happen is we need to 
learn how to do it better because we know it works. But now we 
need to do it cheaper, we need to do it faster, and we need to 
do it at scale. And so the deployment of geothermal energy 
technologies will bring the cost down, and that allows us to go 
into new geologies and to do them cost-effectively. It's not 
dissimilar from what--the growth pattern we saw in oil and gas, 
which started at the low-hanging fruit. And then, as the 
technology matured, we saw new resources. We brought those new 
technologies to bear in new areas and discover new 
opportunities for economic production. The same opportunity 
exists in geothermal. And ultimately, our goal is to 
commercialize where that low-hanging fruit exists. It's true, 
the West does have an abundant shallow heat resource. But the 
East Coast, you dig down, you find heat, right? And so now it's 
about getting those drilling costs down, finding the technology 
to optimize the subsurface reservoir that allows us to do it in 
every possible geologic foundation.
    Mr. Bowman. What should DOE be considering to speed up the 
demonstration and deployment of these enhanced geothermal 
systems?
    Mr. Serrurier. It's a great question. There's a lot of 
opportunities here. So one thing that we're particularly 
excited about is the funding that can be--that has been 
appropriated that could be spent on actually funding 
demonstration projects that are actually, you know, putting 
drill bits in the ground and seeing how these projects work in 
practice, but also thinking about ways that we can optimize 
those types of formations. We brought up--FORGE was mentioned. 
The FORGE project is a great project. We partner with them on a 
lot of opportunities, and seeing how they are pushing the 
boundaries on what these reservoirs look like, how they can be 
operated in more flexible ways for electric generation or for a 
whole bunch of multiple uses, applying that research in the 
ground because we're at the stage where we're ready to deploy, 
and we need to learn how to do that deployment faster.
    Mr. Bowman. Got it. My next question is for Dr. Hakala. One 
of the most energy-intensive actions a building can do is heat 
its air and water tanks, and enhanced geothermal systems become 
more commercially--as, excuse me, enhanced geothermal systems 
become more commercially viable, there is great potential to 
use these technologies to provide heat to large buildings and 
individual households. Many communities in my district in 
Westchester County in the Bronx in New York are looking at the 
systems, as I mentioned in my opening statement. So how can 
enhance geothermal systems be used to lower energy costs and 
decarbonize the building sector?
    Dr. Hakala. Thank you very much for your question. 
Unfortunately, that's outside of my area of familiarity, so we 
can get back to you with an answer on that. We do have 
colleagues across NETL and FECM who have----
    Mr. Bowman. Got it.
    Dr. Hakala [continuing]. Information on that topic.
    Mr. Bowman. Can I go to Ms. Book, then, next? Thank you.
    Ms. Book. Sure. I was ready for this.
    Mr. Bowman. All right.
    Ms. Book. So actually, you know, I don't want to get the 
stat wrong, but we--in the United States, residential and 
commercial sector accounts for about 17 percent of U.S. 
greenhouse gas emissions. OK. I focus on that since I work in 
the energy transition. And building heating is a really big 
share of that, right? So the focus on that is appropriate, and 
a lot more can be done.
    To answer your question, one thing that we've done at Baker 
Hughes is we have partnered with a company called ExerGo, and 
this a company--it's a clean tech startup, so it's a little bit 
earlier. It's--I would make a comparison that where Fervo is 
gone and it's going big, ExerGo is looking at this with 
CO2 as the heat recovery fluid, OK? And so this 
means you're able to use excess CO2 and so get an 
emissions reduction at the same time that you can have a low 
temperature fluid loop for geothermal, which is really exciting 
and very cutting edge. And so this an area we'll want to see a 
little bit more investment in so that--so we can see that 
investment take off. But that's a really great application 
where you get emissions reduction and some really excellent 
sustainable heating and cooling.
    Mr. Bowman. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Ranking Member.
    And it is my great pleasure to recognize the Chairman of 
the Full Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, my 
colleague from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas, for five minutes.
    Chairman Lucas. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Book, in your testimony, you highlight how Baker 
Hughes, alongside industry and academic partners like Oklahoma 
State University, is using technology originally developed for 
the oil and gas industry for emerging technologies in 
geothermal and carbon capture and storage. Can you go into more 
detail on how the investments made by the oil and gas industry 
are vital to the development of other subsurface energy 
technologies?
    Ms. Book. Yes, so a lot has been done in the subsurface and 
sort of the tech and the service side. And so just as we've 
heard from the gentleman from Fervo, a lot of that technology 
piece is well-baked in the oil and gas side, OK? And a lot of 
it directly transfers. So a lot of what we're doing on--in 
geothermal today is directly--same kind of equipment that you 
might use. Now, the frontier space needs technology that can go 
hotter and hotter, OK, as well as--lower temperature is little 
easier. That's a direct translation. I'd also say it's the same 
as you start to look at CCS in terms of the storage side for 
CO2. And a lot of the drilling techniques, same 
idea, controlling the wells the same. And so it's--what's great 
about this is a direct translation of both the tools and the 
skills that people have into this different frontier.
    Chairman Lucas. Do you think we would have seen the rapid 
development in these technologies without the contributions 
made by industry?
    Ms. Book. I don't. I mean, a lot of the innovation comes 
from there, but also in this public-private partnership, right? 
And so you've seen companies like ours in partnership with the 
U.S. Government and the labs working over time--like I think it 
was Sandia who came up with the first PDC bit many years ago, 
in partnership with the private sector, OK, because they have 
the application space where they're really advancing that.
    Chairman Lucas. Mr. Serrurier, in your testimony, you 
describe the partnership between Fervo and DOE's Frontier 
Observatory for Research in Geothermal Energy and the role it 
played in the advancement of enhanced geothermal technologies. 
Within this partnership, what were the benefits to Fervo?
    Mr. Serrurier. Thank you, Mr. Lucas. It's a great question. 
FORGE has been a great partner of ours, and the benefits that 
we saw--first of all, we had a great view into the rock because 
of their experience drilling in southwest Utah, but also to 
have a community of researchers who are dealing with the same 
challenges of taking oil and gas technology and applying it in 
a new geologic formation. There were a lot of unknowns, and to 
have the FORGE success story--and they also have had some 
recent breakthroughs in their own project. To have their 
experience translate into our ability to raise capital, our 
ability to apply that capital to a new development, and to 
start pushing the boundaries on, you know, taking--they can 
take some risks with their project, which, frankly, is harder 
to do when you have the private backing that we do.
    Chairman Lucas. And by the same token, in all fairness, 
what do--what would you describe as the benefits of this to 
DOE?
    Mr. Serrurier. The benefits to DOE is helping the American 
grid decarbonize, create a ton of new jobs, and pioneer a whole 
application of subsurface development and technology that 
wouldn't be feasible without these sorts of partnerships.
    Chairman Lucas. One last question, what specific 
recommendations, if any, do you have for FORGE moving forward?
    Mr. Serrurier. My recommendations for FORGE is to stay 
close to their phone because we love to call them. But also, 
it's to look at the--you know, when you think about where this 
industry is going and the application of EGS, to think about--
we're applying these at large scale. FORGE has a couple great 
wells. We're looking to do a 400 megawatt project nearby, and 
to think about the application challenges that the private 
industry will be facing as we scale up from an industry that is 
nascent but, as I mentioned, on the cusp of very rapid growth. 
And so there's scaling challenges. There's application 
challenges. There's a new world of scientific inquiry, and I 
look forward to working with them to help solve some of those 
challenges.
    Chairman Lucas. Thank you very much.
    And with that, I yield back, Madam Chair.
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    At this time, I recognize Ms. Lee for questions for five 
minutes.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Madam Chair and Ranking Member Bowman, 
and to our panel of witnesses today for your time and your 
testimony.
    Western Pennsylvania, where I represent, has been home to 
mining operations for over 200 years. And of course, that's not 
been without consequence. Black lung, an incurable respiratory 
disease, has become more prevalent and is impacting younger 
workers earlier across the postindustrial Appalachian 
communities. While I'm a strong advocate and supporter for a 
clean energy future that does not rely on fossil energy, I'm 
also obligated as a representative of my people to ensure that 
every individual is carried along as part of our energy 
transition.
    Every Member of this Committee represents families who are 
concerned or affected by the changes they see and feel in their 
environment. It's vital that we continue to push for new 
technologies and strategies, not just for energy security, but 
for better welfare and living standards for our constituents.
    The continued extraction of energy resources from the Earth 
creates numerous spheres within the communities that I 
represent. Millions of structures in the Commonwealth of 
Pennsylvania stand on top of old and abandoned underground 
mines. In fact, my constituents are often advised to purchase 
subsidence insurance in case their homes ever cave in. There 
are an estimated 230,000 homes in my district at risk of 
sinking into the ground from mine subsidence. Powering our 
homes and industry should not and must not mean that parents go 
to sleep worrying that their home may literally be swallowed by 
the ground.
    So this why I'm proud that Rep. Bice and I have been able 
to work together to introduce the Abandoned Well Remediation 
Research and Development Act, which will further support 
research and development into the subsurface environment and 
help reduce methane emissions from abandoned mines across the 
country.
    So not to sound like a radio hit on repeat, but some of the 
worst air quality in the country is found in my district. It 
means a lot to me that I sit in this seat to affect change to 
my community and communities I represent. Legislation like this 
is one step in the right direction toward cleaner air in PA.
    I'm also intrigued by the opportunities that advanced 
computing and complex modeling will create in mapping abandoned 
mines and wells to better plan and protect our communities from 
harmful emissions and geological abnormalities. It's important 
to me that research and development into how we interact with 
subsurface energy sources caters to the safety and well-being 
of our fellow human beings on the surface, along with 
remembering that we share this planet with all the flora and 
fauna, and we are obligated to protect such as well.
    With that said, Ms. Book, how are researchers at 
organizations like your own utilizing their research to create 
technologies and devices that protects our family--or, excuse 
me, our frontline workers from occupational diseases like black 
lung?
    Ms. Book. Well, typically, that's not associated with our 
part of the energy sector, right, and so--but we're--we have a 
really big focus on safety. And so I actually sit on top of all 
of the statistics for our company's performance in that area, 
and in terms of the people, planet, and principles, it's a part 
of our sustainability reporting and accountability to the 
communities we operate in. And so we take that very serious. In 
fact, we measure perfect health safety days to ensure that our 
frontline workers are protected. And so I can assure you and 
point you to the things that we do in more detail offline 
because there's quite a bit that that we do----
    Ms. Lee. Thank you.
    Ms. Book [continuing]. And we partner with communities.
    Ms. Lee. Certainly, I appreciate that.
    Similarly, many communities in my district struggle with 
domestic wastewater treatment due to the leaching of metals 
from abandoned mines into watersheds. If anyone knows, how is 
research and development helping create cost-effective 
solutions for municipalities, such as improved detection or 
prevention of contaminants from abandoned subsurface 
infrastructure? I'll give that to you, but if others have 
input.
    Ms. Book. I don't have an answer, so----
    Ms. Lee. Yes. Dr. Hakala?
    Dr. Hakala. Thank you so much, Representative Lee, and 
thank you for representing Allegheny County. That's where--I'm 
up at the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, NETL site. So I can say 
that some of the research that's being performed at NETL and 
across the Department of Energy has focused on taking what they 
call unconventional feedstocks, and so that would be something 
similar to some of these wastewaters from abandoned mines and 
figuring out how to clean them up and then also how do we 
extract valuable minerals from those resources? And so that 
type of work expands from the basic R&D stage all the way out 
to some technology deployments that are being tested in some 
other regions but that would be applicable to our region, as 
appropriate.
    Ms. Lee. Yes, thank you, Dr. Hakala. And really quickly, 
one more. You know how DOE R&D is working to incorporate public 
feedback and community engagement to adequately address air 
quality and public health concerns in our communities?
    Dr. Hakala. Well, DOE is--as part of all of these larger 
projects that are funded to look at carbon storage and direct 
air capture and things, as part of those external opportunity 
announcements, there is an opportunity--or there is a request 
for the teams responding to those to include a community 
engagement plan. And so that can include outreach, education, 
and any type of involvement with the community as appropriate.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you so much. I yield back.
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you, Ms. Lee.
    And at this time, I recognize the gentleman from New 
Jersey, Mr. Kean, for five minutes.
    Mr. Kean. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you to our 
witnesses for being here today.
    Dr. Wainwright, MIT collaborates with Savannah River 
National Laboratory on the Advanced Long-Term Environmental 
Monitoring (ALTEMIS) project. How has this partnership informed 
future remediation of contaminated groundwater? What other 
insights has come from this project?
    Dr. Wainwright. Yes, so one of the biggest challenges for 
DOE is the long-term stewardship of these sites. And there are 
so many technologies available, including new sensors, AI, 
artificial intelligence, for example, but it has not--they have 
not been integrated into the DOE's remediation program. So in 
the ALTEMIS project, we are trying to integrate these 
technologies to improve the long-term monitoring, such as, for 
example, rapid anomaly detection at the site, ensuring the 
stability of the system, and also really sort of providing the 
communities with the assurance that the sites are safe. That's 
the ultimate goal.
    Mr. Kean. OK. In what ways does the collaboration further 
development of the next-generation workforce?
    Dr. Wainwright. Yes, in our project there are many students 
from different universities, more than five universities. Many 
of them are from minority-serving institutions. For example, we 
are teaching them how to do machine learning, AI, and 
groundwater flow simulation. I believe that we are developing 
the next generation workforce for EM and beyond; for general 
environmental industries.
    Mr. Kean. And then I've got a broader question to any 
member on the panel that thinks it's appropriate to answer. 
When considering the importance of having multiple energy 
sources to help the United States move toward energy 
independence, what potential regulatory barriers or other 
barriers are there that might hinder the growth of enhanced 
geothermal energy production and utilization?
    Mr. Serrurier. I'll be happy to take that first. Thank you, 
Mr. Kean. One area is public lands management, honestly. There 
is--90 percent or so of America's geothermal resource as 
currently recognized sits on federally owned land. And so the 
permitting process, the lease sales, and the in-house expertise 
at the various permitting agencies is a critical component of 
our ability to expand the technology as fast as the market is 
demanding it.
    Dr. Rosso. I'll jump in on that one. Yes. I'm all for the 
enthusiasm and learning-by-doing approach to things like 
enhanced geothermal, and we have some very good success stories 
that have been featured even in this discussion. But if I bring 
it back to the question about safety and the need to kind of 
drive carefully through this, you know, there's cautionary 
tales here. The fundamental R&D that is needed to sort of 
ensure safety, to ensure that we know what we're doing as we 
establish these pilot plants, is ultimately very critical to 
actually keeping the whole industry from actually undermining 
itself with accidents such as induced seismicity or, you know, 
creating a reputation of not-in-my-backyard would ultimately be 
something that would be an inertial drag on the entire 
enterprise.
    So the point I'm trying to make is that there's a 
complementation to all of this with fundamental R&D on the 
subsurface complexity that I refer to in my testimony. There's 
things that we still don't know. When you're drilling into 
deep, hard rock or trying to do things that are really 
challenging, like enhanced geothermal, you don't know how 
stressed those rocks are that you're drilling into. You really 
don't know at the very beginning what's going to happen.
    And so the research that is needed really at the 
fundamental level is things like new sensing technologies, 
things that are being developed like to try and understand 
reactive transport of fluids through stressed rock and 
fractures. These are really fundamental, challenging questions 
that require an incredible collaborative team of 
multidisciplinary folks to wrap their heads around these 
problems and help produce predictive tools, so I just want to 
make sure that's clear.
    Mr. Kean. That's very helpful.
    Anybody else on the panel?
    Dr. Hakala. I'd just like to highlight that a lot of the 
lessons learned from other industries is--can also be very 
important, and also extending it to figuring out how--you know 
what are areas that we already know about versus what are areas 
that require some more of this focused investigation.
    Mr. Kean. That's great. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mrs. Bice. Thank you.
    And at this time, I'd like to recognize the gentlelady from 
North Carolina, Ms. Ross, for five minutes for questions.
    Ms. Ross. Thank you very much. And thank you to the Chair 
and the Ranking Member for holding this hearing, and thank you 
to all the panelists for joining us today.
    One of the most important societal issues we face today is 
a shift to a carbon-free renewable energy distribution system 
and really harnessing what we've got in nature to do just that. 
And this is essential to limiting climate change. And 
obviously, subsurface resources provide a patchwork of 
solutions for this energy transition, including enormous 
amounts of pore space to permanently absorb carbon dioxide and 
renewable energy from geothermal sources.
    Last summer, I had the great pleasure and privilege of 
going with a bipartisan delegation to Iceland to see how they 
use geothermal energy and to see some innovative carbon capture 
technology, some of which was being done between Iceland and 
the United States. I'd like to know--because nobody's talked 
about Iceland here. I mean, obviously, we don't have, you know, 
volcanoes like they do. But how much of what you do is based on 
the amazing success that they've had in Iceland? And I think 
we'll--we should start with Dr. Hakala and move on from there.
    Dr. Hakala. Great, thank you very much for this excellent 
question. And what this points toward for me is I'm trying to 
understand how can we both recover geothermal energy and also 
trap CO2 in a mineralized form? And so the U.S. 
Department of Energy is looking at mineralization R&D across a 
variety of scenarios, both looking at above-ground and in situ 
or within the geologic reservoir, and how do we trap the 
CO2 as an immobile phase? And so there is still some 
fundamental R&D required in that space, especially depending on 
the formation and depending on specific flow pathways and 
properties. However, being able to understand what's happening 
in currently deployed field settings where things are--where 
CO2 is being injected and then coupling that with 
the fundamental R&D--is critical to figuring that out.
    Ms. Ross. Does anybody have anything to add?
    Mr. Serrurier. Yes, I would just like to add quickly, thank 
you for the question. And direct air capture is something that 
we're very interested in at Fervo, and Climeworks, one of the 
direct air capture firms I believe it is in Iceland that pairs 
with geothermal, it works really well because you have the need 
for high heat for direct air capture, as well as the need for 
low-cost, steady, clean electricity. We produce both of those 
things. And so we're looking at what those partnerships could 
look like if we integrate an EGS system with a direct air 
capture system. And a lot of that's modeled off stuff that's 
being pioneered right now in Iceland, so it's great to have 
that working model for us.
    Ms. Ross. Great. And--oh, did you--Dr. Rosso, did you----
    Dr. Rosso. That's OK. I was just quickly going to add, 
there's exciting things going on similar to what's going on in 
Iceland, but in the Salton Sea in California where basically 
you've got geothermal so you've got the heat at the surface, 
but you can also extract metals. You can extract lithium. Lots 
of other important critical elements are coming out. It's just 
fantastic advances in R&D going on at sites like that. So in 
certain ways, I'd say we're trying to keep up with what's going 
on internationally.
    Ms. Ross. Great. And the--my next question is really about 
our energy grid for energy distribution. And so we've seen that 
with solar and wind, we're going to have to make some upgrades 
to our grid to deal with either--particularly with offshore 
wind, an entirely new way of getting that energy to shore, into 
our homes, into our businesses. And then we've seen this 
unbelievable queue in solar where we haven't been able to tap 
into this amazing resource that we have because we simply don't 
have the distribution system. What do we need to do to our 
energy grid to be able to get geothermal energy on it in an 
efficient way and not have the grid be the thing that stands in 
the way?
    Mr. Serrurier. Thank you. It's a huge question. And I think 
transmission is going to be a huge piece of that. We're 
developing projects in places--we have some flexibility in 
siting, but geothermal to date has been a relatively small 
share of our energy grid, and so there isn't necessarily the 
same amount of installed transmission capacity to the areas 
where we see the most exciting development opportunities.
    But, in addition to that, I'll note that geothermal, 
because it is a 24/7, clean, firm resource enables the 
development of a whole slew of variable renewable resources, so 
you have that really cheap solar and wind power coming online, 
but you're also adding flexible baseload power in geothermal 
that can play a critical role in keeping the lights on and 
keeping everything affordable. So the portfolio, but the 
transmission access is going to be important.
    Ms. Ross. OK. With 4 seconds to go, does DOE have anything 
to add to that?
    Dr. Hakala. Yes, we have--I have many colleagues who are 
looking at this question across the Department of Energy. I can 
get some additional information from them. Unfortunately, it's 
not my area of expertise.
    Ms. Ross. OK. Thank you, and I yield back.
    Mr. Kean [presiding]. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes 
Mr. Baird from Indiana for five minutes.
    Mr. Baird. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member. And I 
always appreciate you witnesses taking the time to share your 
expertise with this Committee.
    You know, ag is my--kind of my background, and earlier this 
week, I introduced H.R. 4824, the Carbon Sequestration 
Calibration Act--there's a name for you--but anyway, a bill 
that authorizes the Department of Energy to carry out 
terrestrial carbon sequestration research and development, 
which we've referred to here, in collaboration with key Federal 
agencies like the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the 
Department of Interior.
    So, Dr. Rosso, in your opinion and based on your decades of 
experience working in DOE Office of Science lab, what role does 
basic research in biology or environmental systems science play 
in DOE's other subsurface science activities specifically 
related to carbon sequestration?
    Dr. Rosso. Thank you, Chairman Baird. It's an excellent 
question. I'll try and respond on two fronts. One is 
terrestrial carbon sequestration. There, you're basically 
trying to enhance the amount of carbon that soils can take up. 
And one concept there that should be evaluated is how can we 
take advantage of biology and the entire ecosystem of soils 
basically to drive carbon deeper into the--just basically for 
longer-term storage. And that's something that I think the 
Office of BER, I believe, Biological and Environmental Research 
has an interest in.
    On the flip side, back to the other point, carbon 
sequestration below ground, deep below ground, in other words, 
taking CO2 and injecting it safely below ground, 
this an important area that can't be overlooked. It's been 
mentioned by Dr. Hakala, and this something that still needs a 
lot of research. We need to understand how we can safely keep 
it underground. And one of the things we do at PNNL very well 
because we're sitting out there on a mile of basalt is to try 
and take advantage of the fact that there's reactive minerals 
in basalt that will react with CO2 and convert it 
into stable solid phases. And so this an area that we should 
really continue to keep on the forefront because, you know, a 
large part of the country has got a lot of storage capacity for 
permanent sequestration of CO2.
    Mr. Baird. You know, you mentioned one thing that I think's 
important in this--because of agriculture and what they've done 
over the years in conservation, you know, the carbon adds 
another activity to the soil and improves soil health. And so 
the more that we could capture in the soil, the better off we 
would be.
    But, Dr. Hakala, can you--I want to go to you next if you'd 
like to comment about this.
    Dr. Hakala. Sure. I--thank you very much. And I agree with 
Dr. Rosso's response. There is some fundamental research that 
does happen across the DOE labs, and what's really important 
also is the--leveraging the knowledge that we gain in different 
program areas and applying it toward a specific application. 
And so with this question of what do we need to understand 
about enabling terrestrial sequestration, well, is there--are 
there fundamental advances in geomicrobiology that we can 
leverage to further enhance carbon sequestration in the soils 
and in other types of reservoirs like the deep subsurface?
    Mr. Baird. Would any of the other witnesses--yes.
    Dr. Wainwright. So I have worked in many projects under 
BER, the Office of Science Biological and Environmental 
Research (BER) program. BER supports research, for example, 
developing mathematical models computational tools, to simulate 
and predict the carbon cycling in terrestrial systems. Those 
capabilities can be directly applied to carbon sequestration in 
soil. Also, they support research to map soil heterogeneity 
over a large area, and they also support carbon cycling 
experiments. Those types of research in BER can be directly 
applied to agriculture setting for carbon sequestration in 
soil.
    Mr. Baird. Thank you. Anyone else care to--yes.
    Ms. Book. Yes, I'd like to put on a hat from a former life. 
The--as the token geoscientist sitting here, I'd be remiss if I 
didn't mention that the USGS (United States Geological Survey) 
and the U.S. Biological Survey are a powerhouse in this area as 
well, OK? And so let's just remember as you work on--and I 
haven't looked at your bill yet, but now I'm going to, OK, 
because they have a lot to offer, and they've done great work 
in the last decade on assessing the capabilities and where we 
can have some of the strongest terrestrial sequestration across 
the United States.
    Mr. Baird. I thank all of you. And with that, I'm out of 
time and yield back.
    Mr. Kean. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Mr. Sorsen, Sorensen from Illinois for five 
minutes.
    Mr. Sorensen. Thank you, Chairman and Ranking Member 
Bowman, for convening this hearing and our witnesses for 
appearing before us.
    In Illinois, 54 percent of the energy that we use to power 
our State is nuclear-generated electricity. Illinois is the 
leader in nuclear energy production. This a clean and reliable 
source of energy that has worked so well for my State. However, 
nuclear power does create waste. And currently, we do not have 
a central location for the country's nuclear waste to be stored 
and disposed of. The solution we have gone with is simply 
storing the waste at temporary storage sites at or near the 
generating reactor. This not a long-term solution and generates 
environmental contamination concerns. Sites where nuclear waste 
is stored must be monitored very carefully, activities which 
rely heavily on the expertise derived from subsurface research 
and technology development.
    One of Illinois' nuclear reactors is just outside the Quad 
Cities, a community that I represent. Drs. Wainwright and 
Rosso, are there new developments in subsurface science that we 
can better protect our communities that live near these 
facilities?
    Dr. Wainwright. I go first. So I teach nuclear waste 
management at MIT. I was hired last year to teach this subject. 
And nuclear waste, I would say, is one of the best-managed 
wastes in human history. It's protected by a highly engineered 
barrier system. And also, there are many regulations to protect 
the environment.
    I would say there can be many technologies transferred from 
the EM domain in a sense that EM--DOE Office of Environmental 
Management have so much experience moving defense-related waste 
and monitoring these wastes. I manage a project developing 
monitoring technologies. There are so many new sensor 
technologies and artificial intelligence, for example, to do 
anomaly detection. So these technologies, and new technologies, 
monitoring particularly, can be transferred to secure nuclear 
waste at commercial facilities as well.
    Dr. Rosso. Yes, it's a great question, Congressman 
Sorensen. PNNL is parked right next to the Hanford Site. And 
we--you know, we deal with a lot of contamination just upstream 
from us on the Columbia River. It's an area that EM has taken 
over in terms of--let me back up. They actually are responsible 
for cleanup of that site with its thousand or so plumes of 
contamination slowly making its way down. But the R&D effort is 
largely there as well. And it used to be something that was a 
focal area of the Office of Science, but it's--to be honest, 
it's actually waning a little bit. And it's hard to explain 
why. It's above my paygrade why exactly--and maybe it's 
political, largely. But the point is that there's a lot of 
left-off questions that haven't been addressed in terms of 
trying to understand how radionuclides move through this--
through soils and subsurface environments. And EM is in a mode 
where--they fund research for cleanup. They fund the deep 
vadose zone, for example, which is billions of dollars a year, 
some of which PNNL, you know, leads for DOE. But the 
fundamental R&D is just not there. It's not there where it used 
to be. And it would be great to see that pick up again from the 
Office of Science.
    Mr. Sorensen. You'd mentioned that perhaps some of the 
problem here is political. Could you explain that?
    Dr. Rosso. I cannot. It was just pure speculation. And I'd 
love to back that off if I could, but I can't.
    Mr. Sorensen. Thank you, sir. I've only got a minute left. 
As a nation, we're investing in carbon capture technology, but 
there's questions based on safety and sustainability. Dr. 
Hakala and Ms. Book, either one of you, do we know enough in 
the geology to know that this is 100 percent safe?
    Ms. Book. We can flip for it. OK. I'll go first, and then 
you can go. So just being fast on my feet, I would feel safe 
with this like in my backyard if the system's designed 
correctly, OK?
    Mr. Sorensen. Great.
    Ms. Book. And I say that because there's been longstanding 
use of CO2 in the subsurface many, many decades, 40 
years plus, OK? And so knowing from that you can't really cite 
fatalities from it. There's not a body of real big safety 
concerns that come off of that because the storage of that--its 
use in oilfield recovery and through pipelines has been very 
heavily regulated, as well as, from the safety paradigm, very 
tightly controlled, OK? And DOT PHMSA (Pipeline and Hazardous 
Materials Safety Administration) provides a really good 
oversight mechanism for CO2 and pipeline. And so I 
think in terms of the subsurface, the decades of safety 
experience there is well in hand and I think very under 
control.
    Mr. Sorensen. Dr. Hakala? Or I know I'm running short on 
time. Do we know enough--are we monitoring below the surface 
enough?
    Dr. Hakala. Well, we have a few major things in our--to our 
advantage to ensure the safety. We have the regional 
partnerships, the regional initiatives, the CarbonSAFE efforts, 
the pending efforts. We have the National Risk Assessment 
Partnership, and we also have the SMART effort. And so when you 
think about some of the fundamental to applied work that's 
happening through NRAP and SMART, NRAP is looking at how can we 
quantify the risk of a site so that you can make good decisions 
about what type of site you want to develop? And so that's 
built off of years of the labs working together, the years from 
the oil and gas industry experience, and pulling in new 
knowledge from sites that are under--the demonstration sites.
    With the real-time monitoring and application of 
computational tools in AI, we're going to be able to understand 
what's happening in real time so that things that may have been 
a problem in the past won't be a problem because you can deal 
with it faster. So I think we're in a really good position to 
ensure the security and safety of these systems.
    Mr. Sorensen. Thank you for that. Chairman, I yield.
    Mr. Kean. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
    I now recognize Mrs. Foushee from North Carolina for five 
minutes of questions.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you, Mr. Chair and Ranking Member 
Bowman, for convening this here. And welcome and thank you to 
all of you for your testimonies today.
    I am proud to represent North Carolina's 4th Congressional 
District, home to Duke University in Durham, where, last year, 
researchers and students drilled a 400-foot hole on campus to 
study geothermal potential across the university's campus and 
the region. So my first question is for Mr. Serrurier. Much has 
been said about geothermal energy in the Western part of the 
United States. What technological advancements need to be made 
to tap into eligible geothermal resources here in the Eastern 
part of the country?
    Mr. Serrurier. Thank you, Congresswoman. And it's great to 
hear about the progress at Duke. My brother-in-law attended, 
and I'm sure he'll be happy to hear that.
    I think there's a couple--there's a lot of different ways 
that geothermal energy can be used in many different 
applications. What we're doing at Fervo is digging about 8,000-
plus-feet deep into super what would I think normal people 
consider super hot. It's considered less hot for geothermal 
energy purposes. But that's a technology that we are ready to 
deploy today in the West, and deploying it in the West will 
bring down those costs so we can access deeper resources in 
less understood geologies, the Eastern half of the country. So 
it's something that can be applied from a technical perspective 
across the country right now. As we get better drill bits, as 
we get better sensing of the subsurface and more data about 
where those thermal resources sit in different geologies, 
particularly in the Eastern side of the country, then we'll be 
able to access economically to develop power generation, 
heating and cooling, industrial heat applications. The world is 
our oyster at that point.
    Mrs. Foushee. Thank you for that.
    And, Dr. Rosso and Dr. Wainwright, you both discussed how 
DOE has been proactive in supporting subsurface research and 
development to fill critical gaps. What are the biggest 
challenges that must be addressed to advance the field of 
geoscience and its applications?
    Dr. Rosso. I'd come back to sensing, subsurface sensing. We 
need new tools that basically give us orthogonal information to 
traditional sensing tools like seismic and distributed 
temperature and acoustic. We need to be able to see the state 
of stress in rocks before we drill into them so that--so we 
don't create problems like slippage on a preexisting fault. So 
it's--I would throw it at sensing, developing new technologies, 
innovating really, not just incrementally advancing existing 
technology, but coming up with entirely new ways to sense the 
state of stress in the subsurface. This would be one frontier 
that I would point out.
    Mrs. Foushee. Dr. Wainwright?
    Dr. Wainwright. I totally agree. I would say that long-term 
predictability of subsurface is a grand challenge. One of our 
biggest challenges is that subsurface is heterogeneous and we 
cannot see unless we drill wells. So, yes, sensing technologies 
and imaging technologies between wells, 3D visualization of 
subsurface are rapidly developing. And also, coupled processes 
like heat, water, chemistry interacting each other and those 
processes are very difficult to model. This is another grand 
challenge. And DOE has supercomputers, the world's first 
supercomputer, for example. Those computational resources are 
really powerful to simulate and predict these complex processes 
in subsurface.
    Mrs. Foushee. Would anyone else care to comment?
    Ms. Book. I'd love to add from our perspective, and 
probably Fervo, is that we'd like to see more and more focus on 
pushing the heat frontier in terms of the tools. So you're 
always limited. When you hit a certain temperature profile, the 
tools will start to fail if it gets too hot. And so that's been 
a barrier that's been very difficult to cross in the history of 
geothermal and subsurface exploration. And so I would say that. 
And then downhole sensors is an area that that we can always 
work to advance more particularly on that heat frontier as it 
gets hotter.
    Did you want to add anything?
    Mr. Serrurier. No, I would just add that we do have the 
technologies to deploy today, and iterating and building on 
those technologies in new conditions becomes even better for 
the resource. So we are drilling at heats that are commercially 
productive. We are seeing fiberoptic sensing work in those 
conditions, the drill bits work in those conditions, but to 
make this the fully realized resource that it can be, the 
geothermal can be, will require going to higher--deeper depths, 
higher heats. And obviously, doing that more economically with 
better technology is going to make that more feasible.
    Mrs. Foushee. Mr. Chairman, that's my time. I yield back.
    Mr. Kean. Thank you. The Chair now recognizes Mr. 
Fleischmann from Tennessee for five minutes of questions.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and welcome to 
this distinguished panel. It's always good to see you all. I'm 
Chuck Fleischmann. I represent the people of the Third District 
of Tennessee, more specifically, the great city of Oak Ridge, 
located in Anderson and Roane Counties and that wonderful DOE 
reservation. I appreciate you all participating today.
    In my district, Oak Ridge National Laboratory is conducting 
research and development on a variety of areas surrounding the 
subsurface technologies. For example, DOE's Advanced Scientific 
Computing Research program, known as ASCR, has seen a major 
recent success with the deployment of Frontier at ORNL, the 
world's fastest exascale computer. From rare-earth mineral 
recovery and reuse efforts to developing advanced materials for 
geothermal well construction and operating the country's 
largest open-access battery manufacturing research and 
development center, the national labs are a key player in our 
country's energy future.
    Dr. Rosso, can you explain how the national labs utilize 
funding to fill gaps that private industry may not be able to 
invest in during early technology development?
    Dr. Rosso. Thank you for the question. Let me talk about 
computing. Computing of the kind of--and scale that's available 
at Oak Ridge such as the leadership plus exascale computers are 
totally essential to what I've been referring to all along, and 
that is developing new ways to actually detect and see below 
the surface between boreholes. So it's--that aspect that you 
mentioned is important.
    With regard to your other question, which I've already 
forgotten, I don't know if you'd be kind enough to repeat that 
so that I can----
    Mr. Fleischmann. Yes.
    Dr. Rosso [continuing]. Direct it----
    Mr. Fleischmann. How national labs utilize funding to fill 
gaps that private industry may not be able to invest in during 
early technology development.
    Dr. Rosso. Well, it's all about establishing collaborations 
between the experts that exist in national labs and 
universities and--yes, and giving them real resources to 
actually dedicate time and attention and the development of 
students on these topics, right, for the next-generation 
workforce. So that's essential.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Thank you, sir.
    Dr. Rosso. Thank you.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Dr. Hakala, can you give us some examples 
of how technologies initially started in a national lab have 
evolved into commercially successful enterprises by private 
industry?
    Dr. Hakala. I think--thank you very much for that question. 
And the one example that I'm most familiar with is where there 
was a significant investment in understanding directional 
drilling and hydraulic fracturing technologies. And that's--
some of that fundamental research that was performed years ago 
has then--has now been applied and deployed in multiple 
regions, you know, for unconventional oil and gas. And more 
recently, it's being explored and applied in geothermal as well 
to look at the technology leveraging across different 
technology spaces.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Thank you. I know my time is waning, but, 
Dr. Wainwright, how have high-performance computer--
supercomputers transformed your research in environmental 
remediation and understanding the subsurface?
    Dr. Wainwright. Yes, my team routinely use high-performance 
computing for groundwater simulations. For example, we were 
able to quantify the impact of extreme weather events on EM 
sites. There are many concerns about how extreme rain events 
would impact the waste disposal cells, for example. These 
supercomputers are really helpful for us to model these impacts 
and predict the future consequences if there are.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Thank you. I'm going to try to get this 
question in, and I'll open it up for whomever wants to answer. 
After the Bureau of Mines was dissolved in 1996, statutory 
authority for mining R&D was transferred to the Department of 
Energy. While there are mining technology-related research 
efforts run through NETL and ARPA-E (Advanced Research Projects 
Agency--Energy), there is no active Federal program focused on 
R&D dedicated to hard rock mining and new mining technologies. 
Can any of you comment on the importance of R&D in creating an 
economically viable domestic mining industry? And what role do 
you recommend the Federal Government play including the 
national lab system, as we just discussed, in supporting 
advanced mining technologies?
    Dr. Hakala. Thank you very much for that question. I'm 
happy to start the answer to that. Something that is happening 
across the Department of Energy currently is the Critical 
Minerals Collaborative, and so that is focused on leveraging 
our past investments, leveraging all of the prior knowledge, 
leveraging knowledge from the Critical Minerals Institute, and 
then making sure there's a coordinated effort to develop the 
supply chain.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Thank you. Anybody else want to comment? I 
know I'm past my time, Mr. Chair, but if anybody else would 
like to briefly comment, I'm open. Yes?
    Dr. Wainwright. In terms of the waste management side, 
Office of Environmental Management and Office of Legacy 
Management have been managing uranium mill tailing sites, for 
example, building stable disposal cells. Those technologies and 
experience could be transferred to general mining sites.
    Mr. Fleischmann. Excellent. Thank you. And again, I thank 
this distinguished panel. Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Mr. Kean. The gentleman yields back.
    Seeing no other questions, I thank the witnesses for their 
valuable testimony and the Members for their questions. The 
record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments and 
written questions from Members.
    The hearing is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 3:53 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]

                                Appendix

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