[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]






 
                 VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME IN MANHATTAN

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                         MONDAY, APRIL 17, 2023

                               __________

                           Serial No. 118-14

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
         
         
     [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]    


               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
               
               
               
                         ______

             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 51-906          WASHINGTON : 2023
             
               
               
               
                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair

DARRELL ISSA, California             JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking 
KEN BUCK, Colorado                       Member
MATT GAETZ, Florida                  ZOE LOFGREN, California
MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana              SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
TOM McCLINTOCK, California           HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., 
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin                   Georgia
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              ADAM SCHIFF, California
CHIP ROY, Texas                      DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina           ERIC SWALWELL, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana             TED LIEU, California
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin          PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon                  J. LUIS CORREA, California
BEN CLINE, Virginia                  MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey            LUCY McBATH, Georgia
TROY NEHLS, Texas                    MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
KEVIN KILEY, California              DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             CORI BUSH, Missouri
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas               GLENN IVEY, Maryland
LAUREL LEE, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina

               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
          AMY RUTKIN, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
                                 ------                                
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                         Monday, April 17, 2023

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary 
  from the State of Ohio.........................................     1
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on 
  the Judiciary from the State of New York.......................     3

                               WITNESSES

Jose Alba
  Oral Testimony.................................................     7
  Prepared Testimony.............................................     9
Jennifer Harrison, Founder, Victims Rights New York
  Oral Testimony.................................................    10
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    12
Madeline Brame, New York State Chair, Victims Rights Reform 
  Council
  Oral Testimony.................................................    25
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    27
The Honorable Robert F. Holden, New York City Council, District 
  30
  Oral Testimony.................................................    28
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    30
Rebecca Fischer, Executive Director, New Yorkers Against Gun 
  Violence
  Oral Testimony.................................................    33
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    35
Paul DiGiacomo, President, New York Police Detectives Endowment 
  Association
  Oral Testimony.................................................    40
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    42
Barry Borgen
  Oral Testimony.................................................    44
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    47
Jim Kessler, Executive Vice President for Policy, Third Way
  Oral Testimony.................................................    49
  Prepared Testimony.............................................    51

          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

All materials submitted for the record by the Committee on the 
  Judiciary are listed below.....................................   112

Materials submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Member 
  of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Texas, for 
  the record
    A document entitled, ``Fear City: A Survival Guide for 
        Visitors to the City of New York,'' 1975, NYPD
    An article entitled, ``3 Are Charged With Selling `Ghost 
        Guns,' Including Assault-Style Rifles,'' Mar. 15, 2023, 
        The New York Times
Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, a Member of the 
  Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Arizona, for the 
  record
    A Legal Memorandum entitled, ``The Blue City Murder 
        Problem,'' Nov. 4, 2022, The Heritage Foundation
    An article entitled, ``27 of Top 30 Crime-Ridden Cities Run 
        by Democrats,'' Nov. 04, 2022, Daily Caller
A report entitled, ``Uncovering the Truth About Pennsylvania 
  Crime Guns,'' Brady, submitted by the Honorable Mary Gay 
  Scanlon, a Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the 
  State of Pennsylvania, for the record

                                APPENDIX

Materials submitted by Madeline Brame, New York State Chair, 
  Victims Rights Reform Council, for the record
    A letter from the New York State Commission on Judicial 
        Conduct, May 20, 2022
    An Open Letter to Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg, 
        June 10, 2022


                 VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME IN MANHATTAN

                              ----------                              


                         Monday, April 17, 2023

                        House of Representatives

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:03 a.m., in 
Conference Room A/B, 6th floor, Jacob K. Javits Federal 
Building, Federal Plaza, New York, New York, Hon. Jim Jordan 
[Chair of the Committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Jordan, Issa, Gaetz, Johnson of 
Louisiana, Biggs, Tiffany, Roy, Spartz, Fitzgerald, Bentz, 
Cline, Gooden, Van Drew, Nehls, Moore, Kiley, Hageman, Moran, 
Lee, Hunt, Fry, Nadler, Lofgren, Jackson Lee, Johnson of 
Georgia, Schiff, Cicilline, Scanlon, Dean, and Ivey.
    Also present: Representatives Stefanik, Goldman, and 
Espaillat.
    Chair Jordan. The Committee will come to order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess at any time.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Wyoming, Ms. 
Hageman, to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
    All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States 
of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one 
Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for 
all.
    Chair Jordan. The Chair would ask the press to maybe clear 
out of the middle here so we can see our witnesses and proceed 
with the hearing.
    We welcome everyone to today's hearing on Victims of 
Violent Crime in Manhattan. We are joined today by some of our 
colleagues who would like to participate in the hearing. Ms. 
Stefanik, Mr. Goldman, whose district we're in, and Mr. 
Espaillat. Per an agreement with Mr. Nadler and without 
objection, these Members will be permitted to participate in 
today's hearing for only the purpose of asking questions of the 
witnesses. Each side will have an additional five minutes for 
these Members to question the witnesses.
    The Chair now recognizes himself for an opening statement.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Chair, I have a unanimous consent request.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Florida is recognized.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Chair, I seek unanimous consent. I 
understand Mr. Alba may be utilizing the services of an 
interpreter today, and so that the interpretation time would 
occur off the clock so that we might be able to ask questions 
of Mr. Alba.
    Chair Jordan. Without objection, so ordered.
    While we're speaking of time, I know we have to be back in 
the Capitol tonight for some votes. So, the Chair will probably 
be pretty darn strict with the five-minute rule, but we want to 
make sure all our witnesses get their full five minutes and 
members get their time to question.
    Today's hearing is about the administration of justice and 
keeping communities safe, something that has always been a 
central focus of the House Judiciary Committee. Our witnesses 
today have felt the effects of crime up close and personal. 
They've been victimized by a justice system that cares more 
about political correctness than punishing the criminals who 
have harmed them and harmed their family. We thank them for 
being here and sharing their story.
    Their stories are emblematic of a city that's lost its way 
when it comes to fighting crime and upholding the law. As we 
all know, fairness under the law is a bedrock principle of 
American democracy. In this country, justice is supposed to be 
blind, regardless of race, religion, or creed.
    However, here in Manhattan, the scales of justice are 
weighed down by politics. For the District Attorney, justice 
isn't blind. It's about looking for opportunities to advance a 
political agenda, a radical political agenda. Rather than 
enforcing the law, the DA is using his office to do the bidding 
of left-wing campaign funders. He's taken a soft-on-crime 
approach to the real criminals.
    One of Mr. Bragg's first actions upon taking office in 
January 2022 was to put out a memo that directed his Assistant 
District Attorneys not to prosecute certain crimes, including 
trespassing and resisting arrest.
    The memo also stated that armed robberies should not be 
prosecuted as felonies. Instead, they were to be considered as 
misdemeanor larceny unless someone was shot during the course 
of the robbery.
    Thank goodness, after a backlash from police groups and the 
public, Mr. Bragg agreed to prosecute some robberies as 
felonies but left the rest of the memo in place.
    The president of NYPD Detectives Endowment Association 
said, quote: ``Bragg gives criminals a roadmap to freedom from 
prosecution and control of our streets.'' In Bragg's Manhattan, 
you can resist arrest, deal drugs, obstruct arrests, and even 
carry a gun to get away with it.
    Guess what happened under this new policy? More crime. In 
2022, Mr. Bragg's first year as District Attorney, New York 
City saw a 23-percent surge in major crimes. Felony assaults 
rose 13 percent. Robberies spiked 26 percent. Burglaries in New 
York City went up 23 percent. Grand larcenies were up 26 
percent, and auto theft increased 32 percent. Transit crime 
surged nearly 30 percent. Imagine that. You leave criminals on 
the street; you get more crime.
    Patrick Lynch, the president of the Police Benevolent 
Association, said: ``Police officers don't want to be sent out 
to enforce laws that the District Attorneys won't prosecute.'' 
There are already too many people who believe that they can 
commit crimes, resist arrest, interfere with police officers 
and face zero consequences.
    We should take a minute here to thank our brave men and 
women in law enforcement. We got a number of them right here in 
this building. Thank you for what you do.
    [Applause.]
    Chair Jordan. In the last few years, police have been 
villainized and harassed by the left and even defunded. These 
men and women put their lives on the line every day, every 
single day, and they deserve our deepest gratitude. That's not 
what they're getting from left-wing District Attorneys here and 
around the country.
    Police do their job. They do the hard work. They go out on 
the streets. They catch the bad guys, and then the DAs don't do 
theirs, don't do their job. Instead, they let bad guys roam the 
street. As we'll hear today, repeat offenders are plaguing New 
York City.
    On April 6, 2023, NYPD Commissioner Sewell said:

        Recidivism is the undertow pulling against everything we are 
        doing to keep our city safe. It is counterproductive to public 
        safety and, frankly, is a perpetual carousel of police 
        resources.

    Astonishingly, Sewell said that 327 individuals were 
arrested more than 6,000 times for retail theft. Think about 
that: 327 individuals responsible for 6,000 retail thefts, what 
we used to call stealing, taking someone else's property. Each 
person arrested, on average, 20 times. Maybe they wouldn't have 
had that problem if they'd arrested them and kept them in jail 
after the first, the second, or maybe even the 19th time. An 
average of 20 times.
    Given the record level of crime we are seeing around the 
country, our plan this Congress has been to include field 
hearings in some of our greatest cities to analyze and 
highlight how soft-on-crime policies hurt families, hurt 
communities, hurt small business owners.
    We believe it's important to hear from victims and their 
families, who simply want to share their stories, hoping, 
hoping that it will help create change so other families don't 
have to suffer like they did.
    What better place to start than New York City, where videos 
of violent senseless attacks appear almost daily and where the 
DA of Lower Manhattan earned a reputation for caring more about 
the perpetrators of crime than the victims.
    Thanks again to all our brave witnesses for being here, and 
thanks to the NYPD, the Capitol Police, and the Federal 
Protective Services for all they do to keep people safe.
    I now recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Nadler, for an 
opening statement.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me be very clear. We 
are here today in Lower Manhattan for one reason and one reason 
only. The Chair is doing the bidding of Donald Trump. Committee 
Republicans designed this hearing to intimidate and deter the 
duly elected District Attorney of Manhattan from doing the work 
his constituents elected him to do.
    They have demanded access to the inner workings of an 
ongoing criminal case, information to which they know they are 
not entitled. They have subpoenaed a witness who used to work 
for the District Attorney whom they know cannot answer their 
questions, and they have earned a lawsuit that risks future 
Congressional oversight as a result.
    They have perpetuated the anti-Semitic and racist tropes 
that Mr. Trump has directed at both the prosecutor and the 
judge in this case. They are using their public offices and the 
resources of this committee to protect their political patron, 
Donald Trump. It is an outrageous abuse of power. It is, to use 
the Chair's favorite term, a weaponization of the House 
Judiciary Committee.
    I do not know if Mr. Trump will be found guilty--
    Chair Jordan. Will the gentleman suspend?
    The gallery should refrain from commenting and let the 
gentleman from New York finish his statement.
    The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Nadler. I do not know if Mr. Trump will be found guilty 
by a jury of his peers here in New York or, for that matter, in 
Georgia or in Washington, DC, on charges that may follow, but I 
do know that he will have his day in court.
    Using this Committee to undermine that process as it 
unfolds is cynical, unethical and, given the violence unleashed 
on the Capitol by the former President, just plain dangerous.
    Now, we all grieve for the victims of violent crime, here 
in Manhattan and everywhere. It is shameful that the 
Republicans of this Committee would use the pretext of violent 
crime as an excuse to play tourist in New York and bully the 
District Attorney. It is particularly disgraceful that they 
would use this pretext after doing nothing--nothing--to stop 
the gun violence that terrorizes our Nation.
    According to the Gun Violence Archive, there have been at 
least 146 mass shootings this year alone. That means there have 
been more mass shootings than days so far this year. Three 
people were shot dead, and five others injured at Michigan 
State University. Three children and three teachers were shot 
and killed at a private school in Nashville, Tennessee. Five 
people are dead and eight others, including two police 
officers, are injured after a mass shooting at a bank in 
Louisville, Kentucky.
    These tragedies have taken place in nearly every corner of 
our Nation, although I note in a study by Everytown that, in 
States where elected officials have taken action to pass gun 
safety laws, dramatically fewer people die by gun violence.
    Although there has not, thank God, been a recent mass 
shooting here in Manhattan, you must do more to stem the Iron 
Pipeline, the illicit flow of illegal firearms from States that 
do less to protect their citizens to New York and elsewhere.
    Unlike our Republican colleagues, Democrats have 
consistently advanced policies to make all our communities, 
including New York, safer places to live, to work, to worship, 
and to go to school.
    Last Congress, over the objection of every Republican here 
today, we passed the first gun violence prevention package in 
decades. We can and must do more. We must pass universal 
background checks. We must implement red flag laws to keep guns 
away from those who are a danger to themselves and others, and 
we must reinstate the assault weapons ban. Each of these 
proposals are overwhelmingly popular with the American public, 
and each is opposed by House Republicans.
    We also advanced the VICTIM Act to provide funding to law 
enforcement to improve murder clearance rates. If my Republican 
colleagues were serious about violent crime and sincere in 
their efforts to law enforcement, they would have joined us in 
that effort. One hundred and seventy-eight Republicans opposed 
that measure last Congress on the House floor.
    We supported legislation to improve policing through 
additional funding, better training, and accountability to 
strengthen public trust because we know that public safety 
requires law enforcement agencies and their community partners 
working together. Again, every Republican on the Committee 
stood opposed.
    Here in New York, one of the largest and most complex 
cities in the world, local leaders have pursued violence 
intervention, diversion programs, targeted law enforcement and 
youth engagement programs that have pushed crime and 
incarceration to their lowest levels in decades.
    Over the past year, under the leadership of Mayor Adams and 
District Attorney Bragg, crime in Manhattan has dropped in 
every major category, including murders down 14 percent, 
shootings down 17 percent, burglaries down 21 percent, and 
robberies down eight percent, all in one year. Compare that to 
Mr. Jordan's Ohio, where the homicide rate is 73 percent higher 
than in Manhattan.
    On the specific topic of gun violence, the District 
Attorney is to be commended for securing indictments against 
gun traffickers, ghost gun manufacturers, and other violent 
criminals, leading to a full 20-percent reduction in shootings 
last year.
    The Chair says this hearing is about violent crime in 
Manhattan, but New York remains one of the safest big cities in 
America. I am sure my colleagues have talking points and 
anecdotes to the contrary, but the evidence is firmly on our 
side. The evidence shows, unfortunately, that the Chair could 
have held this hearing back in Washington or in Ohio or in any 
other jurisdiction where the numbers are trending in the wrong 
direction, but, instead, he rushed to hold a hearing here in 
Manhattan in defense of Donald Trump.
    I understand that, in the days leading up to this hearing, 
Republican Members were instructed not to speak about Mr. Trump 
during these proceedings. Don't take the bait, they were 
warned, as if we cannot draw a straight line from the Chair's 
attacks on the District Attorney in the wake of the indictment 
to his attacks on the District Attorney here today. We know 
better. We all know better. The New Yorkers gathered outside of 
this building certainly know better.
    You can pretend that you aren't here on Donald Trump's 
behalf, but you cannot stop the New York criminal justice 
system from running its course, and you will not intimidate New 
Yorkers with your brief visit to this city.
    I thank the Chair and I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. I thank the gentleman for his statement.
    Now, without objection, all other opening statements will 
be included in the record.
    We will now introduce today's witnesses.
    Mr. Jose Alba. Mr. Alba was forced to defend himself while 
working at a bodega. He was attacked by a repeat criminal, who 
was on parole for assaulting a police officer. During the 
attack, Mr. Alba was stabbed and defended himself with a knife. 
Despite surveillance video showing that he acted in self-
defense, Alba was arrested and charged with murder. These 
charges were later dropped after public outrage, including from 
Mayor Adams and former NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton.
    Thank you, Mr. Alba, for being here.
    Ms. Jennifer Harrison. Ms. Harrison is the founder of 
Victims Rights New York, an organization that advocates on 
behalf of victims and survivors of homicide victims. Ms. 
Harrison's boyfriend was killed in 2005.
    We've heard you talk about this, Ms. Harrison. We 
appreciate you being here.
    Two of the assailants were allowed to walk free while the 
third spent only a few years in jail.
    Mr. Jim Kessler. Mr. Kessler is the Executive Vice 
President for Policy and Cofounder of the Third Way. He 
previously served as Legislative and Policy Director to Senator 
Schumer.
    Ms. Madeline Brame. Ms. Brame is the New York State Chair 
of the Victims Rights Reform Council. The Victims Rights Reform 
Council was formed to provide a voice and advocate for victims 
of crime. Ms. Brame's son, Sergeant Hason Correa, was murdered 
in 2018 by four assailants. Sergeant Correa's father was also 
stabbed during the attack.
    Ms. Brame, we're sorry for your loss. Thank you as well for 
being here.
    The Honorable Robert F. Holden. Councilman Holden 
represents District 30 on the New York City Council. He co-
leads the Common Sense Caucus with Councilman Joe Borrelli. He 
previously was a member of the Community Board 5, Queens, for 
30 years, served as first Chair for seven years, and served as 
Chair of the board's Public Safety Committee for 13 years.
    Mr. Holden, thank you for being here and for your public 
safety.
    Ms. Rebecca Fischer. Ms. Fischer is the Executive Director 
of New Yorkers Against Gun Violence. Her organization seeks to 
inform the public, particularly youth, about the dangers of gun 
violence and ways to prevent and reduce gun violence.
    Mr. Paul DiGiacomo is the President of New York Police 
Detectives Endowment Association. The association represents 
20,000 active and retired New York City detectives. Mr. 
DiGiacomo served with NYPD for 40 years.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Barry Borgen. Mr. Borgen's son was the victim of a 
violent crime who was targeted because of his faith, his Jewish 
faith. While walking near a pro-Israel rally, Mr. Borgen's son 
was attacked and beaten by at least four men. They said all 
kinds of terrible things, sprayed mace in his face.
    Mr. Borgen, we're sorry for that, what happened to your 
son. Thank you for being here today.
    We welcome all witnesses, thank them for appearing today. 
You will each be given five minutes. The clock there, when it 
gets to the yellow, that means it's kind of close. Like I said 
before, we'll try to be pretty strict on the time. Again, thank 
you all for being here.
    Mr. Alba, you are up first. We got to swear you in. I 
forgot about that.
    Would you all please stand and raise your right hand.
    Do you swear or affirm, under penalty of perjury, that the 
testimony you are about to give is true and correct, to the 
best of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you 
God?
    Chair Jordan. Let the record reflect the witnesses have all 
answered in the affirmative.
    Thank you. Please be seated. Please know that your written 
testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety. 
Accordingly, we ask that you summarize, as I said before, your 
testimony in five minutes.
    Mr. Alba, you may begin.

                     STATEMENT OF JOSE ALBA

    Mr. Ansari. Representative Jordan, my name is Imran Ansari. 
I'm an attorney. I'm a partner with the law firm Aidala Bertuna 
& Kamins. I am Mr. Alba's attorney. I'm going to be delivering 
an opening statement on Mr. Alba's behalf before the testimony 
begins.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you.
    Mr. Ansari. This is an opening statement from Mr. Alba, so 
I am just the vehicle and his mouthpiece right now.
    First, I want to make this clear. My testimony--
    Chair Jordan. Could you pull that mike really close there, 
sir. It's on, I think. Just pull it down right in front.
    Mr. Ansari. So, again, Imran Ansari. I'm sorry. On behalf 
on behalf of my client, Mr. Alba, I deliver his opening 
statement.
    First, I want to make this clear. My testimony is not 
motivated by a political agenda. I am not here to support or 
side with any particular political party. I am not here because 
I am supporting Republicans. I am not here because I want to 
criticize the Democrats.
    I just want to tell the public about the horrible 
experience I had to go through because of crime in this city, 
an experience that has changed my life and that I will never 
forget.
    On July 1, 2022, I went to work at the bodega just like any 
other day. I took pride in the hard work I put in every day at 
the store to earn my own money and support myself and my 
family.
    That is when I encountered a true and real threat to my 
life. After I simply told a woman that she could not have 
potato chips because her payment was declined, I was face to 
face with her boyfriend, who seemed ready to kill me. He 
attacked me violently, threw me around the store. The woman 
stabbed me herself. I truly believed they were there to kill 
me.
    So, faced with this, I did what I knew I had to do to save 
my life, what the law allows me to do to save my life. I 
stabbed that man in self-defense. When the police came, even 
though I was injured myself, I was placed under arrest. I was 
taken to jail.
    When I came before the judge, the prosecutor said I was 
being charged with murder in the second degree. They asked for 
bail even though so many people are being let go these days, 
and I couldn't afford it.
    So, I went to Rikers Island. I was forced into a crowded 
and unsafe intake cell. Even though I was injured, in jail I 
didn't get the medical treatment I should have received. I 
spent almost a week in Rikers Island before bail was lowered 
and I could be released. I was forced to endure the harsh 
conditions on Rikers Island as an innocent man.
    I still don't know why I was charged with murder. I believe 
that law enforcement and the DA's office didn't investigate the 
case fully. They rushed to judgment, and I suffered because of 
it. Even though the charges were ultimately dropped, they 
should not have been brought against me to begin with.
    I am now traumatized from the incident. I am not working 
because I am terrified for my life that someone in the gang 
will come after me for revenge. I was injured physically and 
mentally because of the incident and my unlawful arrest and 
incarceration.
    My story is one that should not happen again. Crime does 
not discriminate on the basis of a political party. It needs to 
be addressed by law enforcement on the street and by 
prosecutors in the court, but it has to be aimed at the people 
committing crime, not an innocent man like me.
    The next time an innocent man does nothing but protect 
their own life in self-defense from a violent attack, they 
should not be made the villain but, instead, treated with care 
and compassion as the victim.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Alba follows:]
  [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    
    Chair Jordan. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Alba. Thank you.
    Thank you so much.
    Ms. Harrison, you are recognized for your five minutes.

                 STATEMENT OF JENNIFER HARRISON

    Ms. Harrison. Good morning and thank you for the 
opportunity to speak today. My name is Jennifer Harrison. I am 
the founder of Victims Rights New York.
    Sadly, I was thrown into this world and forced to become an 
expert on the issues we are here to discuss when, on January 
15, 2005, both my boyfriend and his best friend were murdered. 
Three brothers were arrested and charged, but justice was not 
served as two of these brothers, both who had records, were 
freed in a sweetheart deal. Ultimately, only one person served 
just 9\1/2\ years for killing two people.
    Through that horrible experience, I connected with support 
groups on both the national and local level. I became an 
advocate against some of the atrocities I witnessed and tried 
to help other survivors of homicide victims connect with the 
resources they need to navigate through this endless nightmare. 
I have been doing so for over 18 years.
    I became more politically involved and got louder in 2017, 
when I learned of bail reform and other dangerous and deadly 
so-called social justice reforms. Nobody wanted to listen to 
us, though, the victims that have to live with the consequences 
of these decisions for the rest of our lives, when we warned of 
the harm that this would cause.
    Victims have no voice in politics or government, so I want 
to thank this Committee from the very bottom of my heart for 
giving victims that voice today. There is a depraved 
indifference toward human life sweeping across our country, 
even among elected officials. Normally, the criminals exude 
this depravity, yet here we have the one that is supposed to 
prosecute them as the one showing it.
    I would also like to say that, if Alvin Bragg was doing his 
job, none of us would be here today to talk. We are not 
politicizing our issues or our loss. From day one, Manhattan 
District Attorney Alvin Bragg announced he would not prosecute 
even very violent crimes in his now infamous memo.
    We saw an immediate result. Two police officers were shot 
and killed, a 19-year-old girl was murdered while working at 
Burger King, and multiple police officers were shot in separate 
incidents.
    Things have not gotten better, only progressively worse. 
Bragg's office has downgraded 52 percent of felonies. Even when 
his office does decide to prosecute a case, they only have 
about a 50 percent conviction rate. No one is safer, as he 
promised, as a result of his delusion or diversions.
    During Bragg's first year in office in 2002, the crime 
index went up 25.57 percent borough-wide, violent crime up 
11.73 percent, and in Manhattan South one precinct alone 
murders were up 40 percent.
    You will hear many horrible stories today. We read about 
them almost daily, like Madeline Brame and Jose Alba, whose 
testimonies will speak for themselves.
    I am here today on behalf of the many other victims that 
reach out to me and are afraid to speak out, who are completely 
distraught with the way they have been or are being treated by 
the career public defenders in Bragg's office. They are being 
told the office does not have the resources to prosecute their 
case.
    We have heard nothing about murdered victims Krystal Baron 
Nieves, Michelle Go, Christina Lee, or how their cases are 
being handled. Christina Lee was brutally murdered by a 
mentally ill homeless man who was supposed to be under 
supervised release in a shelter run by a nonprofit. Who was 
supervising this emotionally disturbed man? How did this 
happen?
    The Manhattan DA's Office has the authority and the duty to 
investigate and indict or make recommendations in situations 
like this that will keep New Yorkers safe and prevent it from 
happening again. Yet, none of that has been done. Does Bragg's 
office not have the resources for this either?
    I have heard from victims of domestic violence and hate 
crimes that have not been charged who are also unable to get 
the support services they are not only entitled to but that the 
Manhattan DA's Office receives Federal and State funding to 
provide. Why are they not providing these services efficiently?
    Over 65 Assistant District Attorneys left the office in the 
first half of 2022. Most were experienced veteran prosecutors 
that cannot be replaced. Only a select few are left in that 
office to fight for victims. What resources is Alvin Bragg 
using to replace those that left instead of using their exit as 
a scapegoat for not prosecuting cases?
    It is a very scary time to be here. God forbid you or your 
family are victimized. Who do you have to fight for you? No 
one. Alvin Bragg has given excuse after excuse to not prosecute 
violent crimes, forsaking not only the distraught and forever-
changed victims, but the entire justice system.
    We have no recourse when our rights are violated. We cannot 
file for prosecutorial misconduct, only the criminals can, even 
when they violate our fundamental rights to life, liberty, and 
the pursuit of happiness.
    Alvin Bragg's dereliction of duty and malfeasance has 
caused tremendous harm. In our newfound progressive society, 
all the compassion and empathy are placed with those 
intentionally inflicting harm on others and not with the 
innocent casualty, the victim.
    So, again, I thank you for giving victims a voice today and 
for allowing us to shed some light on what is happening here, 
in hopes that it will change everywhere.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Harrison follows:]
    
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Ms. Harrison.
    Ms. Brame, you are recognized for five minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF MADELINE BRAME

    Ms. Brame. Thank you. Good morning. My name is Madeline 
Brame. I am the chairwoman of Victims Rights Reform Council. 
I'm also the mother of a homicide victim. My son, Sergeant 
Hason Correa, Afghanistan war retired veteran, was killed in 
Harlem in 2018. Hason was kicked, punched, stomped, and stabbed 
nine times by four individuals he did not know, nor had he done 
them any harm.
    All four of these individuals were apprehended and all four 
charged with first-degree gang assault and second-degree 
murder. This case just resolved this year. So, this case drug 
on through the Manhattan criminal court system for 4\1/2\ 
years.
    When Alvin Bragg came into office, he was handed a strong 
trial-ready murder case and gang assault case against all four 
of these individuals, where this brutal, savage homicide was 
captured on video. He was handed a strong trial-ready case, 
ready to go to trial.
    As soon as he took office, the case immediately began to 
unravel. He dismissed--completely dismissed--gang assault and 
murder indictments against two of the defendants clearly on 
video participating in the brutal, savage slaughter of my son.
    Mary Saunders, the sister involved in the homicide, he 
dismissed her indictment and recharged her with assault with a 
shoe and sentenced her to one year time served.
    Travis Stewart, dismissed his gang assault and murder 
indictment and sentenced him to attempted gang assault. He pled 
guilty and sentenced him to seven years. Travis will be out in 
the next 18 months.
    Mary Saunders, the savage, is currently walking the streets 
of Harlem like she didn't just participate in the brutal 
slaughter of another human being, home with her family, home 
with her children. If that's not a threat to public safety, I 
don't know what is. She's capable at any moment of snapping and 
attacking someone and holding them while someone else plunges a 
butcher knife into their body nine times and another person 12 
times and then run away and leave their body in the street to 
bleed to death.
    This is the type of criminal element that we have walking 
the streets of New York City on a daily basis. All types of 
criminal elements, free to do what they want, when they want, 
however they want, to whomever they want with no consequences, 
no deterrents.
    We have these anti-gang violence, these Credible Messenger, 
millions and billions of our hard-earned tax dollars are going 
to fund these organizations that are doing absolutely nothing 
to deter this crime. They're doing absolutely nothing. I 
propose not another dime of our Federal tax dollars be pumped 
into these organizations until they can produce some measurable 
outcomes of effectiveness of what they're doing with our tax 
dollars to protect the public.
    Chair Jordan. Audience, there is no audience participation.
    Ms. Brame, keep going.
    Ms. Brame. As far as the Manhattan District Attorney's 
Office, if he's receiving one penny of Federal dollars, you 
need to pull that funding until he starts doing his damn job 
and prosecuting crime. I was totally disrespected. Me, my 
family, my grandchildren, we were treated like garbage, like 
garbage. I sat for 4\1/2\ years and saw mothers walk in and 
out. We have a mother sitting here right now whose son, two 
sons, one died and the other one is on a colostomy bag. This is 
out of Darcel Clark's jurisdiction.
    So, I'm not the only one. There are hundreds and thousands 
of us. We don't give a damn about your politics. We don't care. 
It could be the man from the moon who's running for President, 
OK, as long as whoever's in there stands for law and order and 
is going to return some civility and sanity to our city. Thank 
you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Brame follows:]
    
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    Chair Jordan. I said it a couple times. The audience should 
refrain from applause.
    Ms. Brame, though, thank you for that powerful testimony.
    Mr. Holden, you are now recognized for your five minutes.

          STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ROBERT F. HOLDEN

    Mr. Holden. Thank you, Chair Jordan, and thank you, madam.
    Chair Jordan. Pull that close, Councilman. Pull that real 
close.
    Mr. Holden. I am Robert Holden, Democratic City Council 
Member representing the 30th District in the borough of Queens 
and a Member of the Council's Public Safety Committee. I am 
here to address the lawlessness that has taken over this city 
in recent years as a result of the failed progressive policies 
implemented by Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg.
    On his first day in office, Bragg issued a memo that would 
decriminalize a broad range of offenses and reduce charges for 
violent crimes. This was a signal for every criminal that it 
was open season on law-abiding citizens in New York County.
    These failed progressive policies reversed 30 years of law 
and order delivered to the city by the hardworking men and 
women of the NYPD and professional prosecutors that put 
victims' rights ahead of criminals.
    Under Bragg, minor crimes, such as resisting arrest, 
trespassing, fare evasion, prostitution, are no longer 
prosecuted, which has led to a marked increase in criminal 
activity on the streets of Manhattan.
    Serious offenses, such as knifepoint robbery, commercial 
and residential burglaries, weapons possession, and low-level 
drug dealing are being charged with lesser offenses or being 
plea bargained down, resulting in shorter sentences or no jail 
time at all.
    Bragg's first year in office was marked by a dramatic shift 
in the way his office approached criminal prosecutions. We are 
feeling Bragg's soft-on-crime approach in the streets of New 
York.
    We have repeat offenders receiving lenient sentences and 
committing multiple crimes shortly after being released. This 
is happening every day. From the day he took office, it seems 
Alvin Bragg's top priority was to keep criminals out of jail 
and free to roam the streets.
    District Attorney Bragg would be better off as a defense 
attorney than a prosecutor. He downgraded over half of the 
felony cases to misdemeanors and declined to prosecute 35 
percent fewer felony cases compared to 2019. His office 
requested bail in 20 percent fewer felony cases in 2022.
    Sadly, Bragg's approach has resulted in lower conviction 
rates for serious felony charges, with his office winning a 
conviction rate of just 51 percent. It's miserable. Such cases 
brought in 2022 down from 68 percent in 2019. Even his 
misdemeanor convictions fell dramatically, from 68 percent in 
2019 in his office to 29 percent under his jurisdiction in 
2022.
    It is important to highlight that we must compare numbers 
to pre-pandemic levels about crime to get an accurate picture 
of crime in Manhattan and throughout the city. Moreover, while 
stats show that crime is still much higher than before the 
pandemic, they do not tell the entire story. Mentally ill 
homeless people verbally and physically attack people randomly 
on the streets and in the subway. Pharmacies lock up their 
products. The police officers also feel pressured to 
undercharge perps they arrest. This is a daily reality in New 
York.
    To address these challenges, we need our State legislators 
and district attorneys to prioritize public safety and work 
together to strengthen our criminal justice system rather than 
weaken it. The State legislature has failed us by passing laws 
that have weakened our criminal justice system and enabled 
criminals to evade justice.
    Federal prosecutors could help put more career criminals 
behind bars by charging the worst offenders with Federal crimes 
instead of letting progressives like DA Bragg bring 
prosecutions under weakened State laws. We are losing people by 
the tens of thousands to safer cities and States that offer a 
better quality of life.
    We must take swift action to ensure the safety and well-
being of our communities. I applaud the House Judiciary 
Committee for examining the failed progressive policies in New 
York City and the refusal of DAs like Alvin Bragg to prosecute 
serious crimes. Public safety is paramount, and the Committee 
should take the appropriate action to ensure that justice is 
served and our communities are protected.
    Thank you for your time.
    [The prepared statement of the Honorable Holden follows:]
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Holden.
    Ms. Fischer, you are recognized for five minutes. You may 
begin.

                  STATEMENT OF REBECCA FISCHER

    Ms. Fischer. Good morning, Chair Jordan, Ranking Member 
Nadler, and Members of the House Judiciary Committee. My name 
is Rebecca Fischer, and I am the Executive Director of New 
Yorkers Against Gun Violence, the only statewide gun violence 
prevention organization in New York. Thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today.
    As a leader of New Yorkers Against Gun Violence, I have 
devoted my career to reducing gun violence in this State. I 
care deeply about the safety and well-being of New Yorkers and 
work day in and day out to support and uplift victims and 
survivors of gun violence.
    I am committed to the safety of New Yorkers, not only 
because it is my job, but because I am a very proud resident of 
New York City, and I am a parent raising my children here.
    Our team lives and works here also, and we all work with 
victims and survivors of gun violence and violence every day. 
We all want our city and our State to be as safe as it can be. 
We advocate for strong, sensible gun violence prevention laws 
and policies, and we also have a gun violence prevention, 
education, and victim service support program here in New York 
City public schools.
    Because New York State has strong leadership, we have some 
of the strongest gun violence prevention laws and programs in 
the country and some of the lowest gun death and injury rates. 
New York ranks 47th lowest out of 50 States in gun violence 
rates.
    New Yorkers are still being killed and injured by shootings 
each year, and that is because of the national gun trafficking 
crisis. The national gun trafficking crisis is largely the 
result of weak gun laws in other States and the fact that 
Congress has not enacted Federal gun violence prevention 
reforms.
    Crime guns are illegally trafficked from weak gun law 
States in the South along the I-95 corridor known as the Iron 
Pipeline. In New York State, we are the model for the Nation on 
strong gun laws because it's not easy to acquire them here 
illegally. States along the Iron Pipeline have extremely weak 
laws, and as a result, traffickers travel to these States to 
buy guns without a background check from reckless and rogue gun 
dealers. They then illegally bring them back to New York, sell 
them on our streets, and then illegal guns are used in crimes.
    From 2017-2021, New York City recovered and traced over 
19,000 crime guns, and over 70 percent of those crime guns were 
originally purchased out of State from Iron Pipeline States.
    The guns are flowing into our most under-resourced 
neighborhoods, disproportionately impacting Black and Brown 
communities, communities that need economic investment, 
affordable housing, better access to education and healthcare, 
and so much more.
    This is why we strongly support community-led initiatives 
that are evidence-based and trauma-informed and they work, and 
also have our own school education and victim support program. 
Our school program, ReACTION, provides social and emotional 
support to youth victims of gun violence, their families, and 
their schools. We partner with community violence intervention 
programs, local and national leaders and lawmakers, victim 
support organizations and prosecutors and law enforcement.
    The COVID-19 pandemic of 2020 caused a national surge in 
gun violence across this country. However, as more resources 
are put back into the community suffering the most, public 
safety circumstances are improving, including in New York City 
and Manhattan.
    In the last 12 months, according to NYPD's own data, as of 
April, shootings and murder are down in all five boroughs, 
including Manhattan. Crimes unrelated to guns are also going 
down in Manhattan and across the city.
    Yet, there is so much more that can be done by Congress to 
keep this city safe because even one victim of gun violence is 
too many. Congress must close loopholes in the Federal 
background check system, protect survivors of domestic 
violence, pass extreme risk protection order laws, pass safe 
storage laws, crack down on ghost guns, and hold rogue, 
reckless gun dealers accountable.
    We need more investment in community violence intervention 
programs, and we need to hold the highest drivers of crime 
accountable. New Yorkers and all Americans, from Buffalo, New 
York, to Nashville, to last night's victims of the Dadeville, 
Alabama, shooting and every place in between, deserve to go to 
school, to the park, to their office, to a concert, to a 
grocery store, to their houses of worship or to celebrate this 
Nation's independence without the real and present danger of 
gun violence. Our children and our children's children have the 
right to be safe. We need Congress, we need Federal leadership 
to stand up and protect us.
    Thank you for inviting me to testify today, and I look 
forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Fischer follows:]
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Ms. Fischer.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, you are recognized for five minutes. You may 
begin.

                  STATEMENT OF PAUL DIGIACOMO

    Mr. DiGiacomo. Good morning and thank you for this 
opportunity to speak here today.
    I just want to say that, you know, District Attorney Bragg 
took an oath to uphold the law and not to downgrade crimes that 
have an effect on victims of New York City.
    The Detectives Endowment Association has been saying this 
forthree years now, that a lot of the laws that have been 
enacted here in New York City and New York State are 
counterproductive to the safety of the people of New York City.
    The bail reform laws. There is a direct correlation for 
when the bail reform laws were enacted to day one to the uptick 
in violent crimes across New York City. Shootings have 
increased. Gun violence has increased. Illegal guns coming into 
New York City has increased dramatically.
    We talk about the seven majors, the felony crimes that are 
affecting people in New York City. As important as those felony 
crimes that are violating the people across this city are many 
low-level crimes that are not even being addressed that affect 
the victims for many, many years to come.
    Sexual-related crimes on the subways and throughout the 
city streets are increasing. Assaults on police officers are 
increasing. I ask everyone in this room to think about your 
daughter, wife, grandmother, sister, and aunt riding on a 
subway train trying to get to work and being violated or 
groped. Just for that poor woman to try and prosecute this 
crime through the Manhattan DA's Office, and that crime is 
reduced to disorderly conduct, which is no more than a traffic 
ticket. That is going on every day in the Borough of Manhattan, 
every single day.
    It's sad, because many of the people in the Borough of 
Manhattan, the ones that vote for DA Bragg, they live here. 
Many people come to Manhattan every day to work. Hundreds and 
thousands of people come into this city, into Manhattan to 
work, and don't have the opportunity to vote for the District 
Attorney. Their safety is in jeopardy because of the District 
Attorney.
    I add Police Officer Mora and Police Officer Rivera were 
executed. Two young men were executed in the Borough of 
Manhattan. I strongly believe it was because of the memos that 
were put out by the District Attorney's Office that they were 
not going to enforce assaults on police officers, resisting 
arrest on police officers. It sent a message to the criminal 
element that there are no consequences when you assault a 
police officer.
    Now, my concern is the safety of my detectives and the 
people who we serve. It's sad what's going on in this city, 
because we have to start concentrating on the victims of crime 
and not the people that commit the crimes. It's very sad when 
people are afraid to come out of their house at night in Upper 
Manhattan or Lower Manhattan.
    When defunding the police was popular, the New York City 
Police Department had a Homeless Outreach Unit that was very 
effective. It took these homeless people off the street, got 
them food, shelter, got them the medication or the help that 
they needed. Because of the defunding of the police, that unit 
was disbanded. Now, when you walk through every neighborhood in 
Manhattan, there are homeless everywhere, because they tied the 
hands of the police.
    Laws have been enacted to tie the hands of the police. Our 
city council in New York City enacted a law called the 
diaphragm compression bill, in which you have a noncompliant 
individual fighting you and you can't put any pressure or touch 
the person from the bottom of the neck to the top of the waist, 
back and front. Now, I challenge anyone in this room to try and 
do that. It's impossible. That law was enacted, and it's on the 
books.
    We also should add, back in the late 1980-early 1990, there 
was a narcotics problem. They appointed a special narcotics 
prosecutor. Because guns are so out of control now, we need to 
enact and appoint a special firearms prosecutor, so everyone is 
on the same page in prosecuting gun-related crimes.
    Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. DiGiacomo follows:]
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. DiGiacomo.
    We now recognize Mr. Borgen for five minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF BARRY BORGEN

    Mr. Borgen. I'd like to begin by thanking Congressman Jim 
Jordan and other Members of the Committee for giving me the 
opportunity to testify.
    Nearly two years ago, on May 20, 2021, I received a call no 
parent should ever receive. On the other line was my son 
Joseph, who quickly told me he was OK, but savagely beaten out 
at Times Square. He was in need of medical attention. He handed 
the phone to the NYPD, who were extremely helpful and very 
supportive and did the best they possibly can. I was told they 
were bringing him to the emergency room in Bellevue Hospital. 
Without hesitation, I made a beeline straight to Manhattan, got 
in my car, and drove to Manhattan.
    I got to the hospital. It was hard to believe what my son 
looked like. His face was beaten. His face was sprayed with 
mace. They punched him. One fellow hit him with crutches in 
Times Square broad daylight, all because he was wearing a 
yarmulke, going to a pro-Israel rally. I'm in New York my whole 
life. I'm 57. Never had problems like this. It was just very 
shocking to hear this.
    It was just like horrible, horrible to my wife. My wife was 
at home. She couldn't come with me. It was COVID. Only one 
person could go to the hospital.
    I sit in front of the Committee with the two-year 
anniversary of the attack rapidly approaching and the ongoing 
struggle with DA Bragg. This has been going on for two years. 
They have a film of this in Black and White from people on the 
street in Times Square. It's an open-and-shut case.
    DA Bragg has been schlepping this case along with no 
solution, offering deal after deal. One fellow, Waseem Awawdeh, 
who was hitting my son with crutches, was offered a sweetheart 
deal, didn't take it yet. He was let out on probation.
    As he's getting out of the court, as he's getting out of 
jail, the friends are dancing with him, on his shoulders: ``I 
will do this again.''
    He said: ``I will do this again.''
    He had no qualms about doing it again, about beating up 
another Jewish person.
    In fact, while he was out on bail, he had an incident with 
road rage with an elderly man on the street. Bragg brought him 
in. Again, nothing, just: Go out and behave yourself.
    This emboldens him to act, and he doesn't care. I've been 
in three court hearings, and basically nothing has happened in 
three court hearings here in Lower Manhattan a couple buildings 
down. It's just very disheartening that I sit here today and 
nothing is getting done.
    My son Joseph was invited to the White House to appear in 
front of Joe Biden, our President, and Kamala Harris, and so 
forth. This was not a partisan issue. This was an issue where 
they were beating up Asians in New York nonstop, no 
repercussions, beating up Jews, pushing people in the subways, 
in the tracks. No repercussions. It's hard to understand what 
goes on.
    Here this fellow is offered--one fellow is offered a deal, 
no jail time. He only punched my son once. This is what Bragg 
was offering to someone. Hit my son once. OK, one time: OK, 
I'll give you a slap on the wrist. You go home and play video 
games for two months.
    It's just disgusting.
    Now, in the last couple years since the incident happened, 
my son had surgery on his wrist. He likes to play basketball. 
He is very uncomfortable playing basketball, and there's some 
other things. It affects his whole life. It's just a terrible, 
terrible thing. He has physical therapy three days a week. 
These six individuals are walking the streets, roaming around 
like nothing, not a care in the world. It's almost two years. 
Unfortunately, Madeline's son was four years. It's horrible. 
They're pushing plea bargains back and forth. Nothing gets 
done.
    We have heard from--when my son got beaten up by these six 
individuals, we heard from many politicians, Mayor Adams or the 
candidate, Hochul, Governor Hochul.
    I must take notice with Mr. Nadler. You're a Jewish New 
Yorker. I called your office numerous times. I called Mr. 
Schumer's office, another Jewish New Yorker, numerous times. No 
one called us back. Neither one of you came out with a 
statement on my son's incident. OK. You're a Jewish New Yorker. 
You have Jewish roots here.
    Behavior like this enables DA Bragg to just do whatever he 
wants to do. If you guys would have come out with a statement 
from Washington and said we condemn this beating to Mr. 
Borgen's son, we condemn anti-Semitism, we condemn this act, 
maybe Mr. Bragg would have taken this case a little more 
seriously. I call you out on it.
    Most of my friends are so disheartened with you and Mr. 
Schumer, you don't understand. We wouldn't vote for Mr. Schumer 
again if we stood on our head. If I lived in Manhattan, I 
wouldn't vote for you either.
    I will tell you something else that bothers me. Everybody 
is here with gun control. Somehow the criminals can get guns, 
but the average person in New York can't get a gun. I just came 
back from Miami after two weeks. All my friends who moved down 
there, many, many of my friends, all have gun licenses. There's 
a deterrent there. If someone goes after you, there's a chance 
that the person they're going to attack has a way to defend 
themself.
    Here in New York, we can't get guns. The criminals walk 
around shooting people, get guns nonstop. It's just, it's 
unbelievable. A gun charge comes to Mr. Bragg, misdemeanor, no 
problem, walk the streets.
    I remember Plaxico Burress, if you remember the New York 
Giants, he was a wide receiver. He was in a nightclub. The 
Giants were 10-1. He went to a nightclub, accidentally shot 
himself with a gun. I think Robert Morgenthau was the DA at the 
time. Plaxico Burress went to jail for 18 months, if you 
remember. He was a football star in New York. They needed him; 
they would have won the Super Bowl again.
    Here in New York now, you come with a gun: OK, don't do it 
again. We'll see you again.
    It's just disgusting, and it's a hutzpah what goes on--it's 
a Jewish word, hutzpah--what goes on in this district.
    I haven't been in Manhattan for social events. I will not 
come for a restaurant. I will not come for a ball game. I won't 
go to a Broadway show. I will not set foot in Manhattan.
    I have a friend of mine who likes to go to Broadway shows, 
matinees. You know what they do now? They get a group of 30 
people. They get on a bus, park in front of the theater, walk 
into the theater. Don't walk around, no shopping. They then get 
on a bus, go to a predetermined restaurant, and they walk out 
of the restaurant, go on a bus and go home. That's the only 
interaction I have in Manhattan.
    I'd just like to say thank you for listening to me and I 
hope some good comes from this.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Borgen follows:]
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    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Borgen. Please pass along our 
best to your son.
    The Chair would just ask the press, you'll have plenty of 
opportunity to get all the pictures, all the whatever you want, 
but if you could just maybe stay back a little bit, 
particularly when the witnesses are testifying, just in 
appreciation of the witnesses taking time to be here, that 
would be much appreciated by them.
    Mr. Kessler, you are recognized for your five minutes.

                    STATEMENT OF JIM KESSLER

    Mr. Kessler. Thank you, Chair.
    Chair Jordan. Pull that mike close, Mr. Kessler.
    Mr. Kessler. Thank you to Members of the Committee and to 
fellow witnesses, some of whom have suffered the deepest and 
most unfair personal losses. Thank you to Kylie Murdock, my 
research assistant, sitting behind me.
    To Members of the Committee, I've got to ask, why are we 
here? Why are we in New York City? Yes, in this massive city of 
8.5 million people piled atop each other on a speck of land 
barely 300 miles in size, awful things happen. Awful crimes 
happen. Awful losses are suffered.
    As unfortunate and tragic as it is, we live in a violent 
country like no other advanced Nation. The fact is that New 
York City is not only safer than most large cities in America; 
it is safer than most cities of any size, and, on a per capita 
basis, New York City is safer than most of the States of the 
Members sitting on the dais on the majority side.
    In 2020, for example, New York City's murder rate was 18 
percent below the national average for the entire United 
States.
    Mr. Chair, Ohio's murder rate was 59 percent higher than 
New York City's. Louisiana's murder rate was 251 percent higher 
than New York City's. The murder rate in Texas was 42 percent 
higher than New York City; South Carolina, 126 percent higher; 
Florida, 32 percent higher; Kentucky, 70 percent higher; North 
Carolina, 57 percent higher; Indiana, 72 percent higher; 
Arizona, 35 percent higher; Alabama, 119 percent higher.
    A hearing about the ravages of crime could be in Alabama, 
with its towering homicide rate and a mass killing that just 
happened yesterday; or Louisville, where five people were 
murdered in the blink of an eye at a downtown bank; or the 
murder capital of California, which is not Los Angeles or San 
Francisco or Oakland, but in Speaker McCarthy's district of 
Kern County with its county seat of Bakersfield, and it has 
been the murder capital of California for six years running.
    I am focusing on the year 2020, but it's not just that one 
year. It's the entire century. From 2000-2020, if New York City 
was a State, its murder rate would rank smack dab in the middle 
at 22nd in the Nation and be about \1/4\ the murder rate of the 
entire State of Mississippi. The Borough of Manhattan is even 
safer than the rest of New York City. From 2000-2020, 
Manhattan's murder rate would rank 30th among the 50 States.
    I need to say a word about guns and about the politics of 
crime because, (a) 79 percent of homicides are by firearm; and 
(b) I had both the pleasure and misfortune of working on the 
Mike Dukakis for President campaign, and I know how potent and 
irresistible the issue of crime is in politics.
    If someone is a victim of a gun crime in New York City, 
dollars to doughnuts that gun was not originally purchased in 
New York State. I'll double down and bet that crime gun 
originated from either Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, or 
Virginia.
    There is massive gun trafficking that ferries guns from 
those five Southern States with weak gun laws up I-95 to States 
like New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and 
Massachusetts. I know this because, in 1996, I was working for 
a Brooklyn Congressman from Park Slope named Chuck Schumer, and 
we FOIAed the FBI data for every gun in America that was 
recovered in a crime and successfully traced.
    We uncovered gun trafficking patterns all across the 
Nation. Practically nothing has been done legislatively ever 
since except to make it harder, much harder to get data on the 
origin of crime guns.
    That brings me to the politics of crime. Wouldn't it be 
great if this hearing was about how illicit guns are trafficked 
to places like New York City, Newark, Boston, Philly, Chicago, 
and on and on, and how those guns terrorize the innocent people 
living in those places and elsewhere? That's the sort of thing 
Congress would do if it really cared about what was happening 
with regards to crime in New York City.
    Mr. Chair and Mr. Nadler, there are 8\1/2\ million people 
living in New York City on this tiny plot of land. Bad things 
happen here, no doubt. The miracle of New York City is how well 
this enormous chunk of humanity mostly gets along and suffers 
less crime than much of the Nation.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair and the Committee.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Kessler follows:]
     [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
 
    
    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Kessler.
    We will now proceed with five-minute questioning. We're 
going to try to move through pretty quick and, like I said, 
stick to the five-minutes with Members. If any of our witnesses 
need a break, want a restroom break, just let us know. We'll do 
that. We can maybe go one at a time and keep going, or maybe 
we'll take a five-minute break. Just signal us and let us know.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Florida, Ms. 
Lee.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Thank you to all our witnesses for being here today and 
being willing to share your stories with us.
    I served my community as a prosecutor and as a judge, and a 
prosecutor has an absolute responsibility to work with the men 
and women of law enforcement to uphold the law, to protect the 
community, and to consult with crime victims and their families 
to be sure that their voices are heard in our criminal courts.
    When crimes aren't prosecuted and when judges are prevented 
from setting appropriate bail or when violent criminals are 
released out on the street and allowed to re-offend because of 
reckless bail policies, the criminal justice system is failing 
victims of crime.
    It is not just my work as a prosecutor and as a judge that 
informs me for this hearing today; I am also a mother. We need 
to begin this hearing today by remembering that the victims of 
these soft-on-crime policies, the victims of these reckless 
bail reform policies, aren't just numbers; they are people and 
lives that are forever harmed or lost. Each of them reflects a 
failure in our criminal justice system.
    With that, Ms. Brame, I would like to return to your story. 
Would you please begin by sharing with us a little bit more 
about your son?
    Ms. Brame. Excuse me. Is that the way my son was murdered 
or my son as a person?
    Ms. Lee. As a person, please.
    Ms. Brame. Sergeant Hason is the oldest of my five. He was 
35 years old at the time of his death. He is a father of three 
small children, Jason, Jordan, and Jailani, my three grands, 
and also Hason was a husband.
    He was an amazing young man. He was a personal physical 
trainer at Crunch gym at the time of his murder. He was also a 
full-time student at Manhattan College.
    Hason was a responsible, licensed and registered gun owner, 
all right? He was a good guy with a gun.
    Ms. Lee. Do you believe that the criminals who murdered 
your son received justice?
    Ms. Brame. That the criminals who murdered him?
    Ms. Lee. Uh-huh.
    Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. Even the stabber, they offered 
him a plea deal. Instead of the 25 to life, they gave--he 
copped out to 20 years. OK?
    The brother is the only--the other brother is the only one 
who actually went to trial. He blew trial, he lost trial, and 
he also got 20 to life. All right?
    Two of the other defendants got completely away with what 
they did to my son.
    If you take a life, you do life, OK? There should be no 
plea deals for murder. Those cases need to be brought to trial.
    Ms. Lee. What about your family, Ms. Brame? Do you feel 
your family was treated appropriately in the criminal justice 
system?
    Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. We were treated like garbage.
    Ms. Lee. Tell me about that.
    Ms. Brame. We got no answers. If it wasn't for my 
persistence, all right, if it wasn't for my not missing one 
court date, except for the one where they dropped the murder 
and gang assault charge against Mary Saunders, because Alvin 
Bragg's office did not inform me that they were doing that--
which is my right, to know that. I didn't get a chance to give 
my victim impact statement when they sentenced her to that one 
year time served. OK?
    So, they treated us like garage. They didn't reveal any 
information. I had to do a lot of research myself. That's one 
of the reasons why I formed my Victims Rights Reform Council, 
to help others and families of homicide victims, to help them 
navigate that court system. Because we have no services.
    There are no services in New York City for victims. If 
there is, I have no idea what they are.
    Ms. Lee. Thank you, ma'am.
    Councilman Holden, you've called for legislation that would 
give judges more discretion when setting bail conditions for 
defendants who may pose a threat to public safety.
    Would you tell us a bit more about your proposals and why 
you believe they are important?
    Mr. Holden. Well, New York State is the only State in the 
Union that a judge cannot consider how dangerous the defendant 
is. So, if he's committed a number of crimes before, the judge 
can't consider that. The only State in the Union.
    So, that's why you have repeat offenders out on the 
streets. This is so ridiculous, so absurd, that a judge cannot 
consider how dangerous an individual is who is arrested. That's 
why people are walking.
    So, we've made proposals to our State colleagues. Let's 
change this. Why are we the only State in the Union that does 
this? I mean, you have to question that.
    Chair Jordan. The time of the gentlewoman--
    Mr. Holden. Again, so many people doing this--
    Chair Jordan. The time of the gentlewoman has expired.
    Thank you, Mr. Holden. I'm sure you'll get more time.
    Mr. Holden. OK.
    Chair Jordan. The Chair now recognizes the Ranking Member 
from New York, Mr. Nadler.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Ms. Brame, you failed to note that, as a result of DA 
Bragg's prosecution, two men are currently serving life 
sentences for the murder of your son.
    Mr. Kessler, in your testimony, you noted that New York 
City is safer than most cities and even most States in America. 
The police department's own data show that, since DA Bragg took 
office, shootings in Manhattan have declined by 20 percent, 
homicides have declined by 16 percent, and the rates of 
virtually every other type of violent crime are lower during 
the first quarter this year than they were at this time last 
year. In the meantime, homicide rates in places such as Ohio, 
Louisiana, Texas, and Arizona are much higher than in New York.
    As someone who studies crime trends, what do you think 
accounts for this disparity in safety between Manhattan and 
other parts of the United States?
    Mr. Kessler. Thank you, Mr. Nadler.
    So, I don't think any place in this country is really safe, 
OK? Because we're awash in guns. New York is safer. On average, 
New York City's safer than Ohio, Texas, many other places.
    No. 1 is gun ownership rates, OK? So, gun ownership rates 
in red States tend to be about twice the gun ownership rates in 
blue States. There are other factors as well. Poverty rates 
matter. Educational attainment is often a correlation with 
crime.
    I also think that, in certain States, cities in those 
States are starved for resources, because, frankly, the 
Governors don't really care about getting votes in those 
States. So, I think some of the urban areas in southern States, 
the amount of police that they have per capita is far less than 
in places like New York City, and all the resources for schools 
and after-school programs.
    I think No. 1 is gun ownership rates.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
    How does New York City's murder rate compare to the 
national average?
    Mr. Kessler. New York City's murder rate is 18 percent 
below the national average and, I believe, has been below the 
national average every single year since 2010 and, several 
years before that between 2000-2010.
    Mr. Nadler. How about assault?
    Mr. Kessler. The assault rates are lower.
    Mr. Nadler. Burglary?
    Mr. Kessler. Burglary rates are lower.
    Mr. Nadler. Larceny?
    Mr. Kessler. Lower.
    Mr. Nadler. Rape?
    Mr. Kessler. Lower.
    Mr. Nadler. How do the incidence of those crimes in New 
York City compare to the national average?
    Mr. Kessler. In all those cases, New York City's rates are 
lower.
    Mr. Nadler. How does New York City's murder rate compared 
to Ohio?
    Mr. Kessler. New York City's murder rate in 2020--oh, I 
should say, Ohio's murder rate in 2020 was 59 percent higher 
than New York City's.
    Mr. Nadler. What about the rate of rape in Ohio compared to 
New York?
    Mr. Kessler. The rate of rape in Ohio was 280 percent 
higher.
    Mr. Nadler. Then in New York? Assault?
    Mr. Kessler. A 34 percent higher.
    Mr. Nadler. Burglary?
    Mr. Kessler. A 146 percent higher.
    Mr. Nadler. Larceny?
    Mr. Kessler. A 346 percent higher.
    Mr. Nadler. Then in New York?
    Mr. Kessler. Then in New York City.
    Mr. Nadler. How do the incidence rates of those crimes in 
New York City compared to the national averages?
    Mr. Kessler. OK. New York City's murder rate is 18 percent 
below the national average; rate of rape, 58 percent lower; 
rate of robbery is 102 percent higher; rate of assault, 16 
percent lower; rate of burglary, 44 percent lower; rate of 
larceny, 71 percent lower; rate of motor theft, 58 percent 
lower.
    So, lower on six out of the seven.
    Mr. Nadler. Now, let's talk specifically about violent 
crime. Based on your review of crime data, does New York have a 
higher or lower rate of violent crime than Florida?
    Mr. Kessler. Lower.
    Mr. Nadler. What about Louisiana?
    Mr. Kessler. Lower.
    Mr. Nadler. Kentucky?
    Mr. Kessler. Lower.
    Mr. Nadler. Arizona?
    Mr. Kessler. Lower.
    Mr. Nadler. North Carolina?
    Mr. Kessler. Lower.
    Mr. Nadler. If you were able to decide or given a choice of 
where to hold a hearing about violent crime in America, what 
are some of the cities or States where you think a hearing 
would be most needed and most effective? Why?
    Mr. Kessler. Well, I think you could certainly hold 
hearings in places like Louisville, very high rates; 
Jacksonville, very high crime rates there.
    There's a lot of--Alabama, Mississippi, extraordinarily 
high murder rates in those States, some in cities, some not in 
cities.
    There's--New York City is--look, there's a lot of bad stuff 
that happens in this city, because there's 8\1/2\ million 
people here. Relative to the rest of the country, it's doing 
better.
    Mr. Nadler. Finally, according to CDC data, the States with 
the highest rates of gun deaths are Mississippi, Louisiana, 
Wyoming, Missouri, Alabama, and Alaska.
    What trends are you seeing with respect to gun violence 
generally in red States?
    Mr. Kessler. What we found when we looked at between 2000-
2020 is the murder rate in red States--as defined by the 25 
States that voted for Donald Trump in 2020 versus the 25 States 
that voted for Joe Biden--the murder rate in red States was 
higher than the murder rate in blue States in all 21 of those 
years. Over a cumulative 21-year period, it was 23 percent 
higher in those red States.
    Even if you took out the largest blue city in each of the 
red States, the murder rate was 12 percent higher in red 
States.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Cicilline. Mr. Chair, parliamentary inquiry.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman may State his parliamentary 
inquiry.
    Mr. Cicilline. Mr. Chair, our parliamentary inquiry is: In 
light of the testimony just heard, what is the mechanism for 
the Committee to transfer this hearing to Ohio, where the crime 
rate is significantly greater than here in New York?
    Chair Jordan. That's not a--
    Mr. Cicilline. Is there a motion?
    Chair Jordan. That's not a parliamentary inquiry.
    Mr. Cicilline. It is a--I'm asking a parliamentary--how do 
we move the venue so we can have hearing in a city or State 
that has a serious crime problem, the State of Ohio?
    Chair Jordan. Not a properly stated parliamentary inquiry.
    The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Cicilline. Appeal the ruling of the Chair.
    Chair Jordan. It's not an appealable ruling.
    Ms. Harrison. Mr. Jordan? I'm sorry. If Mr. Nadler is going 
to make derogatory comments toward the mother of a homicide 
victim, he could at least allow her some time to respond.
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady is not recognized. Hang on.
    Mr. Nadler. There were no derogatory comments.
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The Committee 
will be in order.
    The gentleman's time has expired.
    The gentleman from California is recognized for five 
minutes.
    Mr. Issa. Pursuant to what you just said, I think it is 
important you have an opportunity to respond to the statement 
by the Ranking Member, that you--justice was served in the case 
of your loss. Ms. Brame.
    Ms. Brame. Sergeant Hason Correa is dead forever. Dead 
forever. There are four people directly responsible for his 
murder. Two people is not justice. Until there is justice for 
the murder of my son, there will be no peace, none. All four.
    I'm asking for a special prosecutor to reopen those murder 
and gang assault charges against Mary Stewart--Mary Saunders 
and Travis Stewart. Present that evidence. Present that video 
to a jury and allow them to decide those homicidal maniacs' 
innocence or guilt.
    My son is dead forever. They deserve to be in prison 
forever.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Issa. Thank you.
    Ms. Harrison, there's been a lot of discussion at the end 
of the dais about gun violence, gun violence, gun violence.
    All three of you at that end, were there guns involved in 
the murder?
    Ms. Brame. No.
    Ms. Harrison. No, there were not. Madeline's son was 
stabbed, and my boyfriend and his best friend were both stabbed 
to death.
    Mr. Issa. So, knives kill.
    Ms. Harrison. When there's a will, there's a way. When evil 
wants to attack, evil is going to attack.
    I would also like to say that New York might have strict 
gun laws, but we also have conflicting gun laws, which I 
haven't heard from Ms. Fischer, regarding ``Raise the Age.''
    Immediately after the Buffalo incident, Kathy Hochul 
implemented a ``Raise the Age'' that placed a ban on purchasing 
weapons, certain weapons, for minors. We also have an original 
``Raise the Age'' law that conflicts that completely, because 
it eliminates the criminal prosecution of anyone--any minor 
holding an illegal weapon.
    Mr. Issa. In this State, you have a universal assault 
weapons ban and have for a long time. Isn't that true?
    Ms. Harrison. I'm not sure about the assault weapons ban. 
I'm sorry.
    Mr. Issa. OK.
    Mr Alba, I think your testimony was very powerful. You, 
too, were attacked by other than a gun. Isn't that correct?
    If you'd pause the clock.
    [Mr. Alba's answers were delivered through an interpreter.]
    Mr. Alba. That's correct.
    Mr. Issa. I'm sorry. I can't hear you.
    Mr. Alba. That's correct. There was no gun involved.
    Mr. Issa. Your response that saved your life was also not a 
gun. Is that correct?
    Mr. Alba. Yes.
    Mr. Issa. Well, I appreciate the fact that you were able to 
respond.
    In New York, if I understand correctly, even though you 
were operating a store, you were not allowed to have a weapon 
to protect yourself in the way of a gun. Is that correct?
    I'd like to--go ahead.
    The Interpreter. Can you please repeat the question?
    Mr. Issa. Yes. In New York, you defended yourself with a 
knife because, as a store operator, you were not allowed to 
have a gun. Is that correct?
    Mr. Alba. No.
    Mr. Issa. OK. You don't own a gun. Is that correct?
    The Interpreter. Yes, he doesn't own a gun. He doesn't 
really know much about gun laws.
    Mr. Issa. OK. Thank you.
    Then, Mr. Holden, you probably could answer this. According 
to the figures we were given earlier, at least 6,000 of the 
19,000 weapons were New York-based weapons. Is it true that 
guns go missing and get stolen and get straw-purchased here in 
New York in spite of the most stringent laws in the country?
    Mr. Holden. Exactly. You're not going to get every gun off 
the street. The Iron Pipeline is a problem, we know that, but a 
lot of guns come from New York City. A lot of guns are made in 
New York City, put together in New York City.
    The problem we have in New York State, in New York City, 
is, we have some of the toughest gun laws in the Nation, but 
they don't enforce them. The courts are not enforcing them, the 
DAs are not enforcing them.
    So, this is a big problem. You have multiple shootings, one 
individual, five arrests for shootings, and he's back out on 
the street. How is that working?
    Mr. Issa. Yes.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, you represent so many of our brave men and 
women in blue. Can you comment on that failure to enforce 
existing laws, leading to the kind of both gun and non-gun 
violence that New York is seeing?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, like we said earlier, it was brought 
out in the hearing that New York City police and detectives 
took an amazing amount of firearms off the streets. Every time 
they do that, they put their life in harm's way. They confront 
an armed felon and they put their life in harm's way, just for 
that individual to walk out the door the next day and again get 
a firearm and use it either in a robbery or in gang-related 
violence.
    Mr. Issa. Mr. Chair, I'm not going to take all the time 
that should've been paused, but I do want to comment that a lot 
has been made about moving the venue or other places we could 
be, and I will reiterate on behalf of my colleagues on the 
other side of the aisle: Yes, we could be having this in Los 
Angeles; yes, we could be having it in San Francisco. There are 
other places around the country in which, systematically, 
district attorneys are not enforcing the laws, leading to the 
kind of terrible stories we're hearing here today.
    I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
    The gentlelady from California, Ms. Lofgren, is recognized.
    Ms. Lofgren. Thank you.
    I do think that there is a reason why we're in this 
jurisdiction.
    First, let me just say: All of us on this Committee, no 
matter our party, are opposed to crime, and all of us have 
sympathy for victims of crime. It's not acceptable.
    I will say also that we don't have jurisdiction. The 
Federal Government does not have jurisdiction over State and 
local prosecutions. That's up to the voters of each State and 
each locality.
    If we were going to have a hearing that we have no 
jurisdiction to deal with, I think we might go to a place in 
the Speaker's district, which has much higher crime rates than 
New York City. As has been mentioned, Bakersfield has a 
homicide rate of 13.7 percent per 1,000-100,000 people. New 
York is at 5.5 for the same amount of residents.
    I'll note also that 100 percent of the fatal officer-
involved shootings involved a gun.
    Mr. Jordan in his opening statement mentioned his sympathy 
for the police. We all have that. I also have sympathy for the 
officers who defended us against a MAGA mob, unlike some 
Members on the other side of the aisle.
    I think it's pretty obvious that we're in New York because 
of the case of New York v. Donald J. Trump. I'm also worried 
that we're not here about guns. Because 80 percent of all the 
murders in the U.S. are committed with a gun. We've had 155 
mass shootings so far this year. Our colleagues on the other 
side of the aisle have prevented any kind of sensible gun 
violence legislation from passing to keep us safe.
    Now, we're not the only country in the world with people 
who want to do bad things or with people who are unstable. 
We're the only country in the world that has mass shootings 
practically every other day. That is something that's within 
our jurisdiction, and we ought to take some action.
    This is a choice that we are making, to allow all the 
children of America to go into school worried that they're 
going to be the victim of a mass shooting. It's a scandal that 
we have done nothing about it.
    Now, talking about The People v. Donald J. Trump, we don't 
have jurisdiction over that either. That's something that is a 
local prosecution, and it's entirely improper for the Federal 
Government or any committee of the United States to try and 
interfere in this matter.
    So, having said that, I want to talk a little bit more 
about--or ask a little bit more about gun violence and what can 
be done about it.
    Ms. Fischer, it's been suggested--or, Mr. Kessler, either 
of you--that, somehow, having more guns would make us safer. Do 
the statistics actually back that up, that having more guns 
makes for a safer community?
    Ms. Fischer. States with strong gun laws have lower rates 
of gun violence.
    One of the things that's important to say here is that 
crime is going down in New York City, thankfully, but there is 
more than can be done by Congress to enact strong universal 
background checks, a strong Extreme Risk Protection Order law 
at the Federal level, and to fund State laws. There's more that 
can be done to enact safe-storage laws and to combat the 
trafficking crisis. Congress is standing idly by and not doing 
anything.
    Ms. Lofgren. Let me ask you about--some of our colleagues 
have suggested that we defund the prosecutor's office here in 
Manhattan. It's my understanding that the majority of the funds 
comes from an annual grant to the office's Witness Aid Services 
Unit that provides services to victims of crime.
    What would the impact be of eliminating those services, if 
you know, Mr. Kessler or Ms. Fischer?
    Ms. Fischer. Sure.
    We need to be investing and putting more resources into 
victim services and supporting victims. As you heard here 
today, we need to be giving victims more mental health support 
and more social support. We need to be helping them find access 
to compensation, not only for funeral expenses, for hospital 
expenses, to make up for lost income.
    Ms. Lofgren. Let me just say, I want to thank all the 
witnesses, including the victims of crime. I fear that you are 
being used for a political purpose, despite your sincerity.
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady's time has expired. The 
gentlelady's--the Committee will be in order. The Committee 
will be in order.
    The gentlelady's time has expired.
    The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Gaetz, is recognized for 
five minutes.
    Mr. Gaetz.

        Our criminal justice system is insane. It's dangerous. It's 
        harmful. And it is destroying the fabric of our city. Time and 
        again, our police officers make an arrest, and then the person 
        who was arrested for assault, felonious assault, robberies, and 
        gun possession, they're finding themselves back on the street 
        within days, if not hours, after arrest.
                                                  Eric Adams, New York 
Mayor

    Mr. Gaetz. My friends, the reason we are here in New York 
is because you have Democrats, you have citizens calling for 
some relief from this pain. We are here not to use anyone but 
to uplift the voices of brave people who are here to tell their 
story.
    Ms. Brame, do you feel used in this hearing?
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Gaetz. Ms. Brame, do you feel used?
    Ms. Brame. Absolutely not.
    Mr. Gaetz. Ms. Harrison?
    Ms. Brame. I'm a willing participant.
    Mr. Gaetz. Ms. Harrison, do you feel used?
    Tell you what, let me ask it this way: Do you feel more 
used by this Committee hearing, or do you feel more used by a 
criminal justice system that allowed people to kill people that 
you love and care about with no consequence?
    Ms. Harrison. The latter. I'm beyond grateful for the 
opportunity to testify here on behalf of victims, because the 
Democrat Party, including Mr. Nadler and everybody here today, 
has ignored us in this city. We need Federal oversight. We need 
help. We're not getting any kind of help.
    Mr. Gaetz. So--
    Ms. Harrison. The services that she wants to keep funding 
are not being provided to the victims. I have a woman sitting 
outside who is a victim of domestic violence, who was conned by 
an immigrant, and she is receiving no services whatsoever.
    So, until we get a thorough audit to the outcomes of the 
services being provided, no. We need to find out what's going 
wrong and get the services to where they need to be.
    Mr. Gaetz. I am not here to criticize any New Yorkers, 
except maybe one, and that's because so many New Yorkers will 
soon become Florida voters.
    This is an iconic city. It's actually our Nation's most 
iconic city. It's not because of the beautiful architecture, 
and it's not because of the geography. It is because of the 
sense of hustle that is so inherent to the people who come to 
New York to achieve their dreams. Increasingly, that hustle is 
being replaced with fear.
    Mr. Holden, Councilman Holden, you and I are from different 
parties. If we talked about a thousand things, we'd probably 
disagree about the vast majority of them. Here is my simple 
question for you: Is fear a rising feature of life in New York, 
or is fear a declining feature of life in New York?
    Mr. Holden. It is increasingly worrisome, what we're going 
through in New York City. Fear is an everyday event in New York 
City.
    Taking the Subway. My wife is Asian-American. She will not 
get on a New York City Subway. My daughter will not get on a 
New York City Subway, for fear, because many Asian-Americans 
have been attacked.
    Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Kessler says, there's just a lot of people 
here in Manhattan; you just have to take it.
    Mr. Holden. Right.
    Mr. Gaetz. You just have to understand that this is going 
to be a violent place.
    Mr. Holden. Which I found that insulting.
    Mr. Gaetz. Well, Mr. DiGiacomo, you're here as the voice of 
law enforcement, in many ways. Since the days of Cain and Abel, 
there has constantly been a violent criminal element as some 
feature of American society. The lives we all get to live are 
lashed to whether or not we put that violent criminal element 
in charge or whether or not we constrain it for the sake of 
people who want freedom.
    So, my question for you is: When the ``Day 1 Memo'' of 
Alvin Bragg changes the way resisting arrest is treated, so 
people can resist arrest against law enforcement and not 
actually face a consequence for that, what does that do to the 
enterprise of police officers?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it makes the officers and the 
detectives on the street, their job that much harder. 
Everything becomes confrontational or physical. They put 
themselves--the police officers and detectives are in harm's 
way. Now, I--
    Mr. Gaetz. Well, we don't want to do that, but I have only 
a moment left, and I have to address this matter of crime rates 
that my colleagues keep talking about.
    To the extent that there is an impact on crime rates in 
major cities, I would suggest that this is exactly what you get 
with the ``Soros-ization'' of the United States justice system. 
In places like New Orleans, Louisiana, in places like Tampa, 
Florida, in Jacksonville, Florida, in Tucson, Arizona, 
increasingly George Soros is putting in upwards of $40 million 
to elect 75 DAs to be able to engage in these downgrades.
    By the way, not only are they downgrading the violent 
things, they can't even win the cases they try.
    Mr. Holden, you pointed out the fact that Alvin Bragg is 
actually terrible at losing in court. Since I don't have time, 
I would ask you for the record, since he keeps losing all of 
his cases, we might opine as to why, and we might seek a better 
utilization of the Federal resources that we provide.
    Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Texas, Ms. 
Jackson Lee.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
    Let me indicate, I abhor crime. I abhor victimization, the 
victims that suffer. I want to prevent crime. I want to pay 
tribute to all the law enforcement in this room and outside and 
those in Houston, Texas, from where I come from, of which I 
have a deep and abiding affection and relationship with.
    As a Democrat, I will not sit here, as my predecessor said, 
Barbara Jordan, and see the diminution of the Constitution, the 
destruction of what we believe in and our values.
    I want to stand here and be supportive of everyone who is 
before us, but I want to do it in a way that is befitting the 
patriotism of this Nation. The very soldiers that are on front 
lines wearing uniforms are people of color and otherwise. I 
abhor anti-Semitism, if you will.
    I abhor people being violated through domestic violence. It 
was Democrats who fought extensively for the Violence Against 
Women Act, which has put a lot of money in the State of New 
York City and other States.
    Let us work together. Let us find facts that really address 
this question. That is what I'm going to try to do.
    First, I think it is important to note that the moneys that 
the Republicans want to cut are moneys that would help victims. 
We don't want victims, but we need to have resources. My own 
crime victims in Houston say, ``We are lonely. We need to be 
taken care of after the incident.'' I agree and I brought money 
to the Houston Police Department.
    Let me ask Ms. Vaughan: There are many things that we can 
do better--excuse me, Ms. Fischer: There are many things that 
we can do better. I'd clearly like you to talk about the 
importance of a storage bill. I've introduced the Kimberly 
Vaughan Safe Storage Act. What does that do in terms of 
bringing down gun violence?
    Ms. Fischer. Thank you--
    Ms. Jackson Lee. My time is short, so I appreciate it.
    Ms. Fischer. Thank you, Representative.
    We need safe-storage laws to ensure that children can't 
access guns that shouldn't have them; to ensure that 
individuals who are in crisis can't access them and potentially 
commit suicide and mass shootings.
    Safe-storage laws work. We have a strong one here in New 
York State, and Congress should enact one as well.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Can I just ask, yes or no, are mandatory 
red flag laws good?
    Ms. Fischer. Yes.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Should we rush to Washington and implement 
a ban on assault weapons?
    Ms. Fischer. Yes.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Can we do better in passing stronger gun 
safety legislation? We know we've had one bill, but can we do 
better?
    Ms. Fischer. We absolutely can do better, and we need 
comprehensive reform, and we need it urgently, for all 
Americans.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Kessler, can you quickly respond to 
the question of violence? Can you, under oath, as you've taken, 
affirm that violence or gun violence, in a myriad of ways, has 
going down in this State? I just want to hear you say it again.
    Mr. Kessler. Yes, it is absolutely true. It's also 18 
percent below the national average in New York City. New York 
State has a far lower murder rate than the country as a whole.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Quickly, thank you very much--Ms. Fischer, 
what percentage of guns found in New York come from other 
places?
    Ms. Fischer. Over 70 percent of guns that are used in 
crimes in New York City and across New York State come from out 
of State, the Iron Pipeline from weak-gun-law States, including 
Florida, the Carolinas, and Georgia.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me ask Council Member Holden--thank 
you for your service. You said you're a lifelong New Yorker?
    Mr. Holden. That's correct.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. You therefore lived in New York in the 
1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and so on?
    Mr. Holden. Yes. Yep.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Did you say in an article recently, ``I've 
never seen the lawlessness we're seeing now''?
    Mr. Holden. Yep.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. So, do you realize and recognize this 
pamphlet, ``Fear City,'' in the 1970s?
    So, apparently we've had some ups and downs. This is ``Fear 
City: A Survival Guide for Visitors to the city of New York,'' 
NYPD, 1975.
    I'd ask unanimous consent to put this in the record.
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. So, we've had our moments. We do better if 
we work together. Rather than we cast about what is bad and 
what isn't, let's work together. Let's get the funds, let's get 
the appropriate justice for these victims.
    Let me quickly go to this point. We are here wrongly, 
because--you're here rightly. You are here rightly. We're here 
wrongly, because District Attorney Bragg, because of Trump, has 
been called--he called him a ``Soros-backed animal,'' a dog 
whistle. Then, of course, other Republicans have followed 
likely.
    By the way, Republicans have threatened to defund the ATF--
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms--that does a lot on trafficking.
    This office, because of these threats, white powder has 
come. He's had threatening and racially charged calls into the 
District Attorney.
    I indicated to you my belief and love in democracy. I want 
justice for you. This is an absurd and poor reflection of who 
we are as Americans, who I am as a Houstonian. I believe in 
bringing people together. We need to bring people together and 
work on the solutions.
    I ask unanimous consent to place in the record ``3 Are 
Charged With Selling `Ghost Guns' Including Assault Weapons.''
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. --I'm asking unanimous consent.
    Chair Jordan. Yes, without objection.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The ``Welcome to Fear City,'' unanimous 
consent?
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. With that, I yield back. I thank you.
    I thank the witnesses out of the bottom of my heart.
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back.
    The Chair now recognizes himself for five minutes.
    Mr. Holden, you were born in New York City?
    Mr. Holden. Yes.
    Chair Jordan. You were raised in New York City, went to 
grade school and high school here in the city?
    Mr. Holden. Yep.
    Chair Jordan. Went to college in New York City? You got a--
    Mr. Holden. Yes.
    Chair Jordan. I think I looked. You got an associate 
degree, an undergrad degree, post-grad degree, all from 
universities here in New York City. Is that right?
    Mr. Holden. Yes, I did, Chair.
    Chair Jordan. You're a professor at a university here in 
New York City?
    Mr. Holden. Right. Forty-four years.
    Chair Jordan. All your professional career has been spent 
here in New York City. Is that right?
    Mr. Holden. Yes.
    Chair Jordan. You received a lifetime achievement award for 
your volunteer work from a Queens civic group. Is that right?
    Mr. Holden. Yes.
    Chair Jordan. For your work here in the city.
    Mr. Holden. Yes.
    Chair Jordan. You love this town, don't you?
    Mr. Holden. I love it.
    Chair Jordan. I think Mr. Gaetz is right. I think America 
loves this town.
    Mr. Holden. Right.
    Chair Jordan. Whether you're a Yankees fan, a Mets fan, a 
Giants fan, a Jets fan, we don't--the Statue of Liberty, Ellis 
Island, Broadway, and Wall Street. Americans love this city. 
Maybe most, I think Americans appreciate the people of this 
town and the example they showed the country after that tragic 
day of 9/11.
    Mr. Holden. Right.
    Chair Jordan. Do you agree with all that, Mr. Holden?
    Mr. Holden. I agree with that 100 percent.
    Chair Jordan. Yes.
    Right now, the policies being implemented by this District 
Attorney are going to ruin this great city. Do you agree with 
that?
    Mr. Holden. Yes, I do.
    Chair Jordan. It's scary, isn't it? It's scary what you 
see. It's scary what Ms. Harrison's had to endure, what Mr. 
Alba's had to endure, what Ms. Brame's had to endure, and what 
Mr. Borgen has had to endure.
    It's driven by that ``Day 1 Memo,'' that ``Day 1 Memo,'' 
which sent a message to this town, to the bad guys in this 
town: You can do bad things, and you're not going to get 
prosecuted.
    Do you agree with all that, Mr. Holden?
    Mr. Holden. Yes, I do.
    Chair Jordan. Yes, it's scary. Soft-on-crime policies are 
going to ruin this great city, and that's why we're here.
    It's happened in other cities, as Mr. Gaetz pointed out. 
That's why this is not the only hearing. We're going to have 
other hearings. We'll go to wherever we need to go.
    This is something that has to happen--that has to stop. 
Justice isn't supposed to be political.
    Now, Mr. Holden, you're a Democrat, right?
    Mr. Holden. Yes, I am.
    Chair Jordan. It shouldn't matter. Republican or Democrat, 
I think as a lot of people said, it should not matter, should 
it?
    Mr. Holden. It should not.
    Chair Jordan. What's the answer, Mr. Holden? What would you 
recommend?
    Mr. Holden. Well, my allegiance is to my constituents. I 
live here.
    Chair Jordan. Well said.
    Mr. Holden. For 71 years, I've lived in New York City. I've 
seen bad times, high crime, 2,000 murders a year in the 1980s. 
I've not seen the lawlessness that I'm seeing today in New York 
City in my lifetime. That means we're afraid to go anywhere. 
There's things--
    Chair Jordan. Let me just be clear. So, in 71 years, your 
life here in this great city, it's never been as bad as it is 
today.
    Mr. Holden. I've had so many friends leaving this town 
because they just see the quality of life dropping. They go out 
on the street, there's people driving down the wrong way with 
the electric scooters, there's people robbing stores. You know 
that all the--
    Chair Jordan. Yes.
    Mr. Holden. --pharmacies in New York City have to be under 
lock and key, you have to go in a case.
    It's so bad, these small crimes, that Mr. Bragg has said 
he's not going to prosecute. You don't send that message out 
there. That's why we disagree. We're the same party, but we 
totally disagree on that.
    Again, my allegiance is not to the party. It's to my 
constituents and where I live. Again, I plan to live here until 
I die. I don't want to see it go down the drain.
    Chair Jordan. Yes. You're standing up for the folks you get 
to represent in Queens as part of the city council.
    Mr. Borgen, Ms. Fischer earlier said, ``bad guys go into 
other States and buy guns illegally.'' The Democrats' response 
is, take away guns from law-abiding citizens.
    Is that going to work, Mr. Borgen?
    Mr. Borgen. Absolutely not.
    I just want to say one thing. I sit here and listen. You're 
on one side; you're on one side. When Ronald Reagan was 
President, him and Tip O'Neill had regular meetings, got 
together and worked together in Congress.
    Chair Jordan. That's right.
    Mr. Borgen. I don't understand why I have to sit here, 
whether Republican or Democrat--I'm a Republican, by the way. I 
now vote in Florida, and I'm a registered voter in Florida. I 
have a Florida driver's license. Based on--I'm not trying to 
stay.
    The fact of the matter is, if everybody worked together and 
not sit here and say, this party says this about Trump, about 
this, it's just--it doesn't make any sense. The fact of the 
matter is, the criminals will get guns either way. You can do 
whatever you want; the criminals are going to get guns. They 
always have gotten guns. It's not going to change. It's not 
going to change.
    So, you can sit here until you're blue in the face. You can 
say, Congress, we're going to outlaw gun sales across America. 
They're going to get guns.
    Chair Jordan. Yep.
    Mr. Borgen. The criminals will get guns. There's nothing 
you can do about it. Just that's life.
    Mr. Kessler sits here and says we have to sit here and take 
it. I've never heard someone say to me I have to take crime.
    I live in Long Island. Crime has now come to my area, out 
in the Five Towns, a very nice, suburban area. We have had 
robberies now in stores. Now, the crime is coming toward me 
because, I guess, New York City is tapped out; they can't rob 
the pharmacies anymore.
    Criminals are going to get guns. Nothing you can do about 
it, absolutely nothing.
    Chair Jordan. The bad guys aren't necessarily stupid; 
they're just bad.
    Mr. Borgen. They're just bad.
    Chair Jordan. They're going to figure out a way to do bad 
things. The key is to put bad guys behind bars so they can't 
harm others. When you send that message, things get better.
    Mr. Borgen. There's a segment of society that are always 
going to be criminals. It's been from day one. Nothing you can 
do about it. If Mr. Bragg would lock people up, then it'd save 
a lot of headaches in New York City and save lives.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Borgen.
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman--the Chair now recognizes the 
gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Johnson, for five minutes.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Chair, this is a sham hearing. It's not about crime in 
New York. It's an effort to impede and ultimately suppress the 
prosecution of Donald Trump. If you don't believe it, then all 
you need to do is connect the dots.
    First, Manhattan District Attorney Bragg announced his 
criminal charges against ex-President Trump. Then, House 
Judiciary Republicans abused their power by subpoenaing 
testimony and records from DA Bragg about the ongoing 
prosecution. Next, they bring this sham hearing to Manhattan, 
supposedly about crime. If my colleagues across the aisle were 
really concerned and really cared about reducing violent crime, 
they'd work with Democrats to pass commonsense gun laws.
    There are too many gun deaths in this country, and that's 
why I have joined with my fellow Democrats to cosponsor bills 
that would ban assault weapons, strengthen background checks, 
and fund research into gun violence prevention.
    Meanwhile, MAGA Republicans continue to resist even the 
most basic reforms, like universal background checks. If 
Republicans really wanted to stop violent crime, they would be 
in D.C. right now working with Democrats to pass commonsense 
gun legislation. Instead, like jackbooted thugs, they've 
descended on New York City, using violent crime as their 
pretext.
    The MAGA Republican extremists are not interested in gun 
violence--or even knife violence. The Republican witnesses who 
have used their time to criticize District Attorney Bragg have 
served as props in a MAGA Broadway production. The real purpose 
in coming to New York City--
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. Hey.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. The real purpose--
    Chair Jordan. Hey.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. The real purpose in coming to New 
York City--
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman will suspend. The gentleman 
will suspend.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Stop the clock.
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. For the audience, I've said several times now 
that the Committee has to be in order. If anyone continues, 
then we're going to have escort some people out.
    Mr. Borgen. Please don't talk--
    Chair Jordan. So--
    Mr. Borgen. Please don't talk down to us witnesses, please.
    Chair Jordan. Yes. The gentleman from Georgia controls the 
time. Mr. Johnson can proceed.
    Mr. Johnson of Georgia. The real purpose in coming to New 
York City is to harass, intimidate, and threaten Manhattan 
District Attorney Alvin Bragg.
    We are here because Manhattan District Attorney Bragg 
announced the indictment of former President Trump, and MAGA 
U.S. House Republicans have responded by using their power to 
try to help ex-President Trump beat the 34 counts of fraud that 
he has been charged with.
    MAGA Republican extremists have defended the January 6th 
insurrectionists, and they are out here today serving as 
Trump's bulldogs, trying to scare a duly elected district 
attorney from following the facts where they lead and enforcing 
the law.
    It is just one more sign that MAGA Republicans are a clear 
and present danger to our democracy and are actively working to 
undermine the rule of law, not just federally, but also on the 
State and local levels.
    With that, Mr. Chair, I yield the balance of my time to the 
gentleman from New York's 18th District, Hon. Congressman 
Adriano Espaillat.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Thank you, Ranking Member.
    Thank you, my colleague, Hank Johnson, for yielding time.
    Mr. Chair, first, I want to express my condolences, my 
deepest condolences, to both Ms. Harrison and Ms. Brame.
    Mr. Alba, I was proud to see your community, our community, 
rally around you and other bodegueros, and I applauded DA 
Bragg's decision to drop the charges against you.
    During the 1980s and 1990s, before I was involved in public 
service, as a regular citizen of New York, I fought crime and 
drugs during the crack wars in northern Manhattan. During those 
years, the 34th Precinct used to average over 100 homicides--
let me repeat this--over 100 homicides a year.
    Myself and my family members were held at gunpoint during 
those years, held up at gunpoint. I don't know if any of you 
here have been held up at gunpoint. This is deeply personal to 
me.
    This year, the 34th Precinct has witnessed zero homicides. 
Last year, although far too many, that same precinct in 
northern Manhattan witnessed five homicides. From 100-5 to, 
this year, zero.
    Let me say something to you, Mr. Chair. The common 
denominator in most homicides across the country is a gun. It's 
a gun. Eighty percent of the homicides in this country are 
committed by guns.
    Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The 
gentleman's time--
    Mr. Espaillat. A young man--
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has--
    Mr. Espaillat. A young man murdered on 137th--
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Espaillat. A young man murdered on 137th Street, a gun.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Georgia yields back.
    Mr. Espaillat. You guys brandish your pins with the AR-15?
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman--
    Mr. Espaillat. Reprehensible.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Johnson, is 
recognized for five minutes.
    Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I wanted to begin by quoting a short excerpt from an 
important study and legal memorandum that was issued in 
November by The Heritage Foundation. Listen to this. It's 
entitled, ``The Blue City Murder Problem.'' This summary 
statement is a message to all Americans--
    Chair Jordan. If the gentleman would suspend for just a 
second.
    I would ask that the audience be quiet. The gentleman from 
Louisiana controls the time.
    If we could stop press--if the press would please move so 
we can conduct the hearing. Move aside.
    Capitol Police, if you could help us just clear that out.
    The press will be given ample opportunity to talk to folks. 
We need to clear out and be quiet hearing.
    The Committee will be in order.
    The gentleman from Louisiana is recognized for five 
minutes.
    Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. Here's the quote:

        Your public safety as a resident is dramatically impacted by 
        your district attorney and whether he or she is a George Soros-
        funded rogue prosecutor or a law-and-order prosecutor, by your 
        police department, and by whether the local politicians support 
        and adequately fund the police and prosecutors' offices.

It goes on:

        This is why the Soros rogue prosecutor movement has 
        concentrated its fire at identifying, recruiting, and funding 
        candidates for local district attorney races. By elevating pro-
        criminal and anti-victim zealots into office, the rogue 
        prosecutor movement destabilizes the safety of our communities, 
        treats criminals as victims and police as the criminals, and 
        ignores real victims.

    America's sky-high murder rates, for example, are almost 
exclusively cabined in cities run by Democrats and with 
Democrat district attorneys, many of whom are bought and paid 
for by George Soros.
    Why are we beginning our crime-wave field hearings in New 
York City? Because this is one of the most egregious examples 
in America. Alvin Bragg is the poster child for exactly what 
was just described.
    Ms. Brame, I want to thank you for your compelling 
testimony today and sharing the shocking and tragic story of 
your son, Sergeant Hason Correa's gang assault and vicious 
murder by four criminals he did not know.
    In your written statement submitted today, you wrote this. 
You said, quote,

        DA Bragg has demonstrated over and over again that he has no 
        regard or concern for human life or victims of crime by 
        instructing his ADAs to not prosecute violent recidivists and 
        ultimately release them back to the streets to victimize and 
        terrorize more innocent New Yorkers.

    You heard Mr. Nadler, Mr. Kessler, and others share their 
manipulated statistics this morning suggesting that New York 
City is, quote, ``one of the safest big cities in America.'' 
You and other New Yorkers don't agree with that, I know. Mr. 
Holden just said, ``our people are afraid to go anywhere 
because this is the worst lawlessness in the city's history.''
    How do you respond to these claims that this is just a 
magical, safe city right now?
    Ms. Brame. Well, I think that the average New Yorker 
doesn't care nothing about no statistics, OK, especially in the 
Black and Brown communities.
    We care about the mothers who have to visit the morgue to 
identify their dead child's body. We care about the mothers who 
have to lean into the coffin and watch them lower that top down 
on that child and they know they'll never see them again. We 
care about being able to let our child go out to the park and 
play without getting shot in their stroller. We care about not 
getting raped in elevators.
    We don't care nothing about your statistics. You cannot 
convince us to not believe our lying eyes with your numbers. 
All right? Because we see it with our very eyes day-in and day-
out, especially in the poor Black and Brown communities, where 
none of you in this room would even step foot in.
    Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. Ms. Brame, you're so right. 
They're changing the subject. They're doing their best to 
change the subject here and obscure the facts because the facts 
are difficult for them to face.
    The objective fact is that Manhattan has instituted pro-
crime, anti-victim policies that have resulted in an increase 
in violent crime and created this dangerous situation in the 
community, in America's once-great city that was the symbol of 
freedom and opportunity and liberty.
    According to the NYPD data, New York City saw a 23-percent 
surge in major crimes in one year since Alvin Bragg took over. 
That is the fact. We have a violent crime epidemic here. 
Everybody in America knows it, because we see the videos played 
out on our television local news every single night of what's 
going on here in the city.
    I just want to say this, and I'm almost out of time, but 
I've shared in this Committee before the long list of 
statements from leading Democrats in Congress and the leading 
Democrats on this very Committee who specifically and 
aggressively called for the defunding of the police. As a 
result, in 2020, in New York City, officials cut $1 billion 
from the police department's 2021 budget.
    These are the completely foreseeable and obvious effects of 
the soft-on-crime policies that are advanced by Soros-funded 
DAs. Alvin Bragg is, in my view, probably the worst offender. 
They're trying to manipulate the facts, they're trying to 
change it, but I thank you for being here.
    I yield the remainder of my time.
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order.
    The gentleman yields back.
    The gentleman from California, Mr. Schiff, is recognized 
for five minutes.
    Mr. Schiff. Almost three weeks ago--is the microphone on?
    Chair Jordan. Yes. Just pull it closer.
    Mr. Schiff. OK. Almost three weeks ago, Donald J. Trump was 
indicted by a grand jury in Manhattan on dozens of counts of 
fraud in connection with a hush-money payment scheme in which 
his personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, previously went to jail.
    Since the former President's indictment, the Manhattan 
District Attorney has been the subject of countless death 
threats and racist diatribes. Others have made ugly appeals to 
anti-Semitism in an effort to attack the proceedings.
    This Committee has used every means at its disposal to 
disrupt, interrupt, and interfere with the prosecution, 
demanding documents it has no right to obtain and no 
jurisdiction to demand, subpoenaing a former district attorney, 
deputy district attorney, and threatening to subpoena the DA 
himself, and now holding this hearing in Manhattan in a vain 
attempt to intimidate or embarrass the prosecutorial authority.
    Now, the majority denies that this is the purpose of 
today's hearing. They would have you believe it is a mere 
coincidence that, all of a sudden and out of the blue, the 
Chair decided that the State of New York is a wonderful place 
to do a hearing--not the Chair's home State of Ohio, with its 
high rates of murder, but New York State. Of all the cities in 
New York, they would pick New York City. Of all the boroughs in 
New York, they pick Manhattan. Apparently, Manhattan is just 
lovely this time of year.
    What a remarkable coincidence, we are meant to believe. Of 
all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, we just 
happened to walk into this one.
    How absurd.
    Of course, this is not a coincidence at all. Instead, it is 
the GOP leadership in Congress doing what it has done best for 
the last six years, and that is to act as the criminal defense 
counsel for Donald J. Trump.
    Well, let me tell you this--let me tell you this--
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. Capitol Police--the gentleman will suspend.
    Capitol Police will remove the gentleman from the audience.
    Mr. Schiff. Let me tell you this--let me tell you this--
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman--
    Mr. Schiff. Let me tell you this--
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Mr. Schiff. Let me tell you this--
    Chair Jordan. Stop. Stop. Stop.
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Mr. Schiff. Donald J. Trump--
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman will suspend until we've got 
order.
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman will suspend. The audience has 
to be in order.
    Capitol Police? Capitol Police? Sir?
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Mr. Schiff. Can we have order?
    Chair Jordan. We are working on it, Mr. Schiff. Gentlemen, 
Capitol Police, please remove the gentleman from the audience.
    No, you've gotta go. You've gotta go. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 
I've given you several warnings. You've gotta go, 
unfortunately.
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Mr. Schiff. That was a very unfortunate attack on Ralph 
Nader.
    Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The Committee 
will be in order.
    The gentleman from California.
    Mr. Schiff. Those comments about Ralph Nader are way out of 
line.
    Of course, it is not a coincidence that we are here in 
Manhattan. Instead, it is the GOP leadership in Congress doing 
what it has done best over the last six years, and that is to 
act as the criminal defense counsel for Donald J. Trump.
    Well, let me tell you this: Donald Trump doesn't need the 
lawyers on this Committee to be his criminal defense lawyer. He 
has plenty of those already.
    Nor is that the role of Congress. Quite the opposite. Our 
role should be to defend the rule of law, not tear it down. We 
should be defending the principle that no one is above the law, 
not attempting to establish a new principle that if are you 
politically powerful enough you get a pass. We should be 
defending the independence of the grand jury and the safety of 
a public servant enforcing the law, not adding to the dangers 
to both.
    The Manhattan District Attorney has the burden of proving 
Donald Trump guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. A jury of 
ordinary citizens will have the responsibility of determining 
whether he has met that burden. That this process will be the 
same for a former President as it would be for his lawyer or 
his driver or his doorman or his neighbor is the strength of a 
democracy, not its weakness.
    The first thing Chair Jordan said today was that this 
hearing is about the administration of justice. More 
accurately, it is about an effort to interfere with the 
administration of justice.
    He said that, here in Manhattan, the scales of justice are 
being weighed down by politics. They are, but only today and by 
this Committee's actions in trying to intimidate the Manhattan 
DA for having the audacity to believe that in America being 
rich, being powerful, even being President of the United States 
does not entitle you to violate the law with impunity.
    There was a time in America when both parties used to 
believe in the rule of law, but, sadly, those days are over. 
One of America's two great political parties believes that 
political might makes right. More than right, it means that you 
are beyond the reach of the law and beyond accountability. The 
more power, the less justice. This is not democracy. This is 
the antithesis of democracy.
    I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman 
yields back.
    The gentleman from Arizona is recognized for five minutes.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate all our 
witnesses being here today. Thank you for sharing your 
compelling stories.
    I would just say, Mr. Borgen, after hearing what you've 
heard today, I think you probably understand why it's real 
tough to sit down and have a logical, cogent argument on how we 
might jointly, with nonpartisan affiliation, try to solve so 
many problems. What do you think?
    Mr. Borgen. It's funny Mr. Schiff sits there and talks 
about you guys, Republicans, about Trump. Hey, while Trump was 
in office, he's been holding hearings trying to get him out for 
four years.
    So, I don't think you have the right to say that. You 
politicized when you were in power. You tried to get Trump out. 
You couldn't get him out. Let's face reality. You tried. The 
dossier was a fake, everything what it was. You tried to get 
him. He's sitting there laughing. That's very nice.
    The other Democrats are telling us that we're all props for 
sitting here. Please don't talk down to us. It's really not 
nice.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Borgen. Thank you very much.
    So, I wanted to just--read some--these are not by a 
Republican. These aren't from Republican Members of this 
Committee. These are just comments here. This is what an 
individual said:

        I would add that, you know, is it's not so much from 
        necessarily Federal funding, but it's something that I do want 
        to spend more time on and focus on and use the plight--use the 
        pulpit of representing the district in public safety.

I think a lot of people walk around this city very scared right 
now, and the violent crime wave is very concerning. This 
individual also said: ``I think people are scared to go on the 
subway in the whole district.'' I've heard it from all over the 
place, from the wealthy. The wealthy areas in Tribeca to 
Chinatown to Borough Park to Sunset Park. I think a lot of 
people are afraid. He also said: ``I'm very concerned about the 
safety in the city.'' He also said:

        I've been a part of this community defending the victims and 
        trying to protect the public for my whole career. And I think 
        that those experiences resonate with people in different ways 
        for different reasons.

We can't allow people to just continue to cycle through the 
system because it's demoralizing to the cops, and it gives 
everyone a perception of danger. He also said:

        Whether or not the data says that it's safe or not, there is a 
        perception in the city that it is not safe, and one of the 
        reasons for that is the perpetual recidivism that is going on.

He also said, quote:

        You've got people randomly being shot on the subways. You've 
        got people randomly being thrown into car trunks and driven to 
        remote place and shot. There's an insecurity not felt in 25 
        years. It's scary to me and far away the No. 1 issue.

    That didn't come from anybody on this side of the aisle. It 
didn't even come from any of you at the table. It came from Mr. 
Goldman over there. We sit in his district. He knows that 
there's a crime problem.
    We've been hearing about a study. Let me refer you to the 
Heritage study that my colleague referred to, and I ask for its 
admission into the record.
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Quote:

        When you remove the crime-infested, homicide-riddled cities 
        from the State murder rate featured in the Third Wave study you 
        dramatically lower the murder rate for that State, upending 
        their conclusions--his conclusions--and exposing the piece for 
        what it really is: A straightforward attempt at political 
        projection dressed up as a study.

This was coauthored by Mr. Kessler.
    That's what you've been hearing about to rebut the stories 
and the facts of the lives of the victims and the witnesses and 
those who live in this city today.
    Mr. Holden, why won't your family take the subway, the mass 
transit system in this city?
    Mr. Holden. What they've experienced--when my daughter took 
the subway the other day for the first time, she says: ``I'm 
not going back, because I felt unsafe. People talk to 
themselves. People screaming. It is terrible.''
    By the way, if you want to cherry pick numbers on the other 
side--and I'm a Democrat, but I'm against what I've heard about 
these stats. Downloaded from the NYPD this morning: 25 percent 
increase in all the seven major crimes in New York City in a 
two-year period, 26 percent in a 13-year period for Manhattan 
North. Manhattan South, 59 percent increase in a two-year 
period in the seven major crimes, 17 percent in the 13-year 
period.
    For all of New York City--and this, again, is from NYPD, so 
cherry pick your own numbers, but this is overall--45 percent 
increase in the two-year period in crime in the seven major 
crimes and a 23 percent in the 13-year.
    So, this is what we're facing, and this is why we go to 
work. We fought so hard in the nineties to stop this crime wave 
that we had in New York City, and we did it, but now it's being 
rolled back to the bad old days.
    Mr. Biggs. I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. I thank the gentleman. The gentleman yields 
back.
    Let me just before going to Mr. Cicilline, we've been at 
this two hours. Are the witnesses fine? Because we'll keep 
going, but if you need a break, just please let us know.
    The gentleman from Rhode Island is recognized for five 
minutes.
    Mr. Cicilline. Mr. Chair, I yield 30 seconds to Mr. Goldman 
from New York.
    Mr. Goldman. I appreciate Mr. Biggs' reference to some of 
the concerns that we have about public safety because it is 
something that is shared across the aisle.
    The problem is that you are using this as a political stunt 
unrelated to real concerns about public safety around this 
country. Manhattan has the sixth fewest murders out of the top 
50 cities in this country. So, we all know why you're here. So, 
don't play the political games. You want to have a meaningful 
conversation? Let's talk.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Cicilline. I want to thank the witnesses for being here 
today and, of course, sharing some very painful stories about 
your loss. I want to start by emphasizing that keeping 
Americans safe is one of the most, if not the most, important 
responsibilities that we have in government. It's one of our 
most important callings as lawmakers. I was mayor of a city and 
presided over the lowest crime rate in 30 years serving as a 
public safety commissioner. So, I understand this very deeply.
    My colleagues, sadly, are not here to meaningfully work on 
public safety solutions. This hearing was called for a purpose, 
to intimidate a district attorney for doing his job and 
upholding the rule of law.
    You know how I know this? Because our colleagues 
consistently vote against laws that would increase public 
safety and ignore facts on what actually decreases crime. Gun 
violence is now the leading cause of death of children in 
America, and it kills 40,000 Americans a year.
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order.
    Would the gentleman suspend just for a second?
    Mr. Cicilline. I'd ask that the clock stop, please.
    Chair Jordan. Yes, the clock stopped. We'll be happy to do 
that.
    We need to stop the conversations over here. The gentleman 
deserves to be heard. The Committee guests will please refrain 
from talking and chatting so that Mr. Cicilline can make his 
presentation and ask his questions.
    The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Gun violence is now the leading cause of death of children 
in America and kills 40,000 Americans a year. My colleagues 
vote repeatedly against even the most commonsense gun violence 
prevention measures.
    They vote against getting assault weapons off the streets, 
despite the previous assault weapons ban that drastically 
reduced gun violence. They vote against alerting people to 
active shooters. They vote against safe storage and red flag 
laws. They vote against community-based crime prevention 
programs. They vote against background checks. The list goes on 
and on.
    More than that, they brought us here today to attack a 
district attorney who has actually seen a decrease in violent 
crime during his tenure--all because he dared to hold Donald 
Trump accountable.
    So, please spare me this suggestion that this is about a 
sincere interest in finding solutions to crime. This is about 
your agenda to earn the admiration and support and good wishes 
of the former President of the United States.
    I, for one, would actually like to hear about some actual 
solutions to public safety and particularly to gun violence in 
our communities.
    That brings me to my first question: Ms. Fischer, how do 
our gun laws, or lack thereof, contribute to America's gun 
violence epidemic? Is the rate of gun violence in this country 
and the rate of gun death comparable in any other developed 
country in the world?
    Ms. Fischer. Thank you, Representative.
    The gun violence rate in the United States is 26 times 
higher than every other high-income country. So, we are 
comparatively a much more dangerous place to live. Though 
violent crime--and I strongly push forward that gun violence is 
violent crime and should be considered as a part of this 
hearing. Violent crime is going down in New York City, 
according to law enforcement's own data.
    However, we could be doing so much more to ensure that New 
Yorkers are protected, and all Americans are protected by 
enacting comprehensive universal background checks, by having a 
licensing system and requiring a permit to purchase. We could 
also be banning the assault weapons that are most commonly used 
in mass shootings that are killing our children every day.
    Mr. Cicilline. One of the things I think that Congress has 
a responsibility to look at, although we don't have 
jurisdiction over State criminal prosecutions, obviously, or 
local prosecutions, what is the evidence with respect to the 
focus on exclusively arrests and incarceration, but how do we 
prevent crimes? What are the good strategies?
    Because, frankly, by the time someone is a victim of a 
crime, we've already failed. Our goal should be to prevent 
crime. So, what does the evidence say with respect to those two 
different strategies?
    Ms. Fischer. We need to be investing in prevention, largely 
because there are so many guns that are being trafficked from 
out of State. We need to be investing in our communities. 
That's with resources toward community violence intervention 
strategies and prevention programs, including in schools, more 
trauma support for victims, more resources, better housing.
    All those issues in terms of the inequities that are 
impacting especially impoverished Black and Brown communities 
in this country and in this city need to be addressed as a 
public health crisis, and we need to be investing in 
prevention.
    Mr. Cicilline. Thank you.
    With that, I yield back, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields 
back.
    The gentleman, Mr. Tiffany, is recognized for five minutes.
    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, would you rather have sympathy for the 
police, or would you rather have respect from elected leaders?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, respect and sympathy. It's a very 
difficult time. In my 40 years now, this is probably the most 
difficult time in policing that I've ever seen. Yes, respect is 
important, of course.
    Mr. Tiffany. Do soft-on-crime policies lead to less gun 
violence?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. I believe so, yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. So, you believe going soft on crime is going 
to cause there to be less gun violence in your city?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. No, not less. Soft on crime is going to 
cause more gun violence.
    Mr. Tiffany. OK. I'll State it this way then: Do soft-on-
crime policies lead to more gun violence?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Harrison and Ms. Brame, the Ranking Member 
said this city is safer. Is this city safer, in your mind, Ms. 
Harrison?
    Ms. Harrison. No. I have a lot of friends through my 
advocacy that live here that are considering moving their 
entire families.
    Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Brame, is this city safer under District 
Attorney Bragg?
    Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. There are all kinds of criminal 
elements roaming the street, free to do whatever they want.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Holden, the District Attorney's Office 
conceded they used $5,000 in Federal funds, which are 
authorized by us here, for purposes other than fighting violent 
crime here in Manhattan.
    Do you agree with the District Attorney's decision to do 
that?
    Mr. Holden. No, I don't. I disagree with most of what DA 
Bragg is about, especially the soft on crime.
    What's happened in New York City, the reason why our 
crime--and it's not going down, it's going up if you look at 
the trends. We have the lowest incarceration rate of any major 
city in the United States. I'll repeat that: The lowest 
incarceration rate of let's say 40 of the biggest cities. New 
York City has the lowest. That's because Mayor de Blasio before 
Mayor Adams started releasing everyone from jail.
    So, of course, crime was going to go up. It skyrocketed in 
2020. So, that's the reason. We still, I believe we have to 
arrest more people--DA Bragg will disagree--and they should go 
to jail when they commit a crime.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Holden, so there's this Federal funding 
that comes in and it's not being used to fight violent crime. 
As an elected Representative, do you view it as inappropriate 
that those of us that are responsible for those dollars going 
to fighting crime using Federal funds, is it inappropriate for 
us to review how those dollars are being spent?
    Mr. Holden. Yes, certainly we should review it, yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Holden, have you been asked to be on any 
of the major networks to deliver your message? Have you been 
asked, for example, to be on CNN to deliver your message?
    Mr. Holden. I've been asked not from CNN, but I have been 
asked on other major networks, yes.
    Mr. Tiffany. You've shared those comments.
    Ms. Brame, Ms. Harrison, have you been asked to be on one 
of the major networks to tell your story?
    Ms. Brame. Not CNN.
    Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Harrison?
    Ms. Harrison. No, not CNN, not MSNBC. They refuse to even 
acknowledge that victims are a part of this hearing.
    Mr. Tiffany. So, let's talk about--we hear percentages. 
Time after time we're hearing percentages. In 2022, as a result 
of a seven-percent increase in rapes, that's 110 more people 
that got raped here in New York City. Those are almost all 
women, I'm sure, 110. Auto theft, 3,256 more car jackings here 
in New York as a result of this soft on crime. Transit crimes, 
people being pushed off subways, right? Five hundred and 
twenty-one more people; 521 more people. Thirty percent more, 
that's 521 more people. That's what we're seeing, ladies and 
gentlemen. These are real people that are being harmed.
    I just want to conclude with this, Mr. Chair. I'm so glad 
we're having this first hearing in New York, but I want you to 
come to my State. I want you to come to Milwaukee where we had 
a District Attorney, here's his quote when he started out:

        Is there going to be an individual I divert or put into a 
        treatment program who's going to go out and kill somebody? You 
        bet.

    Milwaukee has 10 percent of the population, and they have 
25 percent of the crime.
    Mr. Kessler, that's the problem is the Soros prosecutors 
are not doing their job. In Wisconsin, now we've got a Soros 
Supreme Court justice. The people of Wisconsin better hang on 
because violent crime is going to get worse. Come to Milwaukee, 
Mr. Chair, for the next hearing.
    Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. The gentleman's time is expired.
    Ms. Scanlon is recognized for five minutes.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Johnson.
    Our constituents elect us to make their lives better. They 
send us to Washington to work on the issues that impact 
American families, whether it's healthcare, jobs, the cost of 
prescription drugs, infrastructure, clean air and water, 
climate rescue and, of course, safe communities and schools.
    Every day in Congress, we are seeing the right-wing 
extremists who control the House failing all of us, choosing 
publicity over progress, choosing politics over people, and 
choosing protecting the disgraced and now-indicted former 
President rather than protecting our democracy.
    Today, at the urging of the former President and his 
lawyers, the Chair has dragged the entire House Judiciary 
Committee to New York, inserting the Federal Government into a 
purely State and local matter with no credible pretense of 
jurisdiction.
    He's making the American taxpayer and especially the New 
Yorkers who he claims to be so concerned about, making those 
taxpayers pay for this foolishness. This isn't governance. It's 
not working for the American people. It's grandstanding. It's a 
stunt. Just look at all the cameras here. Every second of it is 
preventing us from being able to do the real work that the 
people who elected us expect us to do in Congress.
    To our witnesses here today who shared their pain and 
trauma in being victims of crime and violence, I am so sorry 
for the impact that has had on you and your families. Anyone 
listening to you has to be moved by what you've experienced. I 
applaud your courage in trying to take that pain and move to 
change things going forward.
    I fear that you have been revictimized by this hearing 
because this hearing is not going to provide that change. It's 
not a serious effort to make our communities safer. Our 
Republican colleagues aren't in New York City to prevent crime. 
They're here to protect someone who's been charged with 
committing crimes.
    How do we know that? Look at the time, place, and manner of 
this hearing. We know that the timing isn't a coincidence 
because, as soon as it became obvious that the Manhattan 
District Attorney was getting ready to charge Mr. Trump with 
crimes, Mr. Trump's lawyers sent a letter to the Chair telling 
him to use the full powers of Congress to go after the 
Manhattan DA.
    We know that the place is important because the choice of 
place for this hearing isn't a coincidence. It's about 
protecting Mr. Trump because it's being held in the city where 
Mr. Trump was indicted and arrested just two weeks ago. If this 
hearing were focused on fighting crime, as several people have 
mentioned, there are other jurisdictions that have much higher 
rates of crime.
    As to the manner of this hearing, we know that it's about 
protecting Mr. Trump because it's being led by the disgraced 
former President's closest allies, the ones who benefit the 
most if he can beat the criminal charges here in New York or if 
they can intimidate the Manhattan DA or the other prosecutors 
across the country who are investigating other alleged crimes.
    Crime prevention is a serious topic, and it deserves 
serious discussion, but that's not what this hearing is about. 
Instead, we're seeing a circus, a performance by partisan 
politicians who have hitched their wagons to the Trump train.
    So, I and my colleagues refuse to sit idly by while 
families across this country, from Alabama to Louisville to 
Nashville to Uvalde to Buffalo to Boulder, while they're 
mourning the loss of their loved ones to gun violence. We stand 
ready to pass legislation to address the serious issues facing 
all Americans if our Republican colleagues will let us.
    Now, Ms. Fischer, you and several others have mentioned the 
Iron Pipeline, the route through which many of the crime guns 
in States like New York and Pennsylvania are acquired. Just 
last year, the ATF intercepted 400 illegal guns from southern 
States that were being sent to my community in Philadelphia.
    Can you speak to the impact of less gun laws in States that 
lack more specific gun laws, the impact that it has on gun 
violence in cities like New York, Pennsylvania, and 
Philadelphia?
    Ms. Fischer. Absolutely. Thank you, Representative.
    Because traffickers are able to easily and illegally obtain 
guns in States with weak gun laws, like Florida, Georgia, or 
the Carolinas, they are able to easily purchase lots of guns 
and traffic them into neighborhoods that have been 
disproportionately impacted by structural and systemic 
inequities for decades.
    We're talking about vulnerable communities that are already 
lacking in access to resources. Because of that, those guns are 
being used in crimes, and also because gun carrying is more 
likely when people feel afraid and they are feeling more 
powerful.
    Chair Jordan. [Presiding.] The gentlelady's time has 
expired.
    Ms. Scanlon. Mr. Chair, I would just seek unanimous consent 
to enter into the record a report entitled, ``Uncovering the 
truth about Pennsylvania crime guns.''
    Chair Jordan. Without objection.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Texas--
    Ms. Harrison. Mr. Chair, I'm sorry. They keep addressing 
us, the victims who are here to testify and make change--we're 
here to effectuate change--and then not allowing us to comment 
at all.
    Chair Jordan. If you can hang on just a second, Ms. 
Harrison. I'm sure Mr. Gooden will give you a chance to 
respond. The time belongs now to Mr. Gooden. Thank you.
    Mr. Gooden. Thank you.
    Ms. Brame, I heard you saying how disrespectful this was. I 
share your concerns. We're going to come back to you, but I'd 
first like to yield to the Chair.
    Chair Jordan. That's fine. I'll yield. Go to Ms. Harrison.
    Mr. Gooden. Ms. Brame, I'm disgusted with what I'm seeing. 
This is a serious event. We've called you all in here to share 
your experience. We've been called jackbooted thugs by the 
opposing party for having this hearing. It's been called 
foolishness. I don't believe your stories are foolish.
    We've heard from the Congressman that represents this 
district just six months ago who said, quote:

        You've got people randomly being shot on the subways. You've 
        got people randomly being thrown into car trunks and driven to 
        remote places and shot. There's an insecurity not felt here in 
        25 years.

    If the local Congressman is saying that then, I don't 
believe you are crazy for saying the same things. I thank you 
all for being here.
    Ms. Brame, you've shared so much, and we thank you. Is 
there any further comments you'd like to have? We hear all the 
talk about the former President from the other side. This is 
not a political hearing, despite claims from the other side. 
I'll give you the floor.
    Ms. Brame. The only people I hear talking about politics or 
President Trump is from the other side. I don't hear no one, I 
don't hear any of these victims, I don't hear anyone else 
talking about President Trump except from the people from the 
other side. From the other side of where? The other side of the 
moon? The other side of the world? The other side, whatever 
that is.
    Let me tell you something, victims can care less about 
anyone's political ideology or party. Neither do criminals. 
They don't go up to a person and ask them if they're a Democrat 
or a Republican before they bust them in the head, OK, or 
before they push them in front of a train, before they stab 
them to death.
    These are real-life people that we're dealing with. We pay 
you guys. Our tax dollars pay you. You work for us. We do not 
work for you.
    Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The Committee 
will be in order. The time belongs to the gentleman from Texas.
    Mr. Gooden. Ms. Brame, I want to thank you again. While the 
other side wants you to stop talking, I hope you'll continue 
well after today.
    Ms. Brame. Absolutely, absolutely.
    Mr. Gooden. Thank you. I'll yield the balance of my time to 
the Chair.
    Chair Jordan. I was just going to say, Ms. Harrison, are 
you grandstanding?
    Ms. Harrison. No. It seems like, as Madeline mentioned, 
that the other side is here on taxpayer dollars. The least that 
they could do is listen to our side of it, ask us questions. 
They brought witnesses in to counter our horrific stories for 
their agenda.
    All they want to do is talk about gun legislation. Well, 
you can have all the gun legislation on the books, but if it's 
not enforced, which is what Alvin Bragg is doing, then it's not 
going to matter, and people are going to die. That's why we're 
here. I appreciate your oversight because we do need help. If 
they continue to ignore it, people are going to die.
    Chair Jordan. Is this Committee victimizing you, Ms. Brame, 
as the Democrats said?
    Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. This Committee has given me a 
platform, has given me a seat at the table to be able to tell 
my story and raise awareness for victims all over not just New 
York City but all over this country, especially from 
Philadelphia.
    Chair Jordan. Ms. Fischer, if guns are the problem, why 
didn't the Democrats fix it?
    Ms. Fischer. The Democrats have worked hard to pass 
comprehensive--
    Chair Jordan. Well, they had control. They controlled all 
the House and all the Senate. They still have the White House. 
Why didn't they fix it last Congress? If the answer is--
    Ms. Fischer. We need comprehensive gun violence prevention 
legislation to be passed, and this Congress has the ability and 
the capacity to do that.
    Chair Jordan. I was in the Congress last session. Mr. 
Nadler was the Chair.
    Ms. Fischer. So, we can do it now.
    Chair Jordan. They could have passed it. They didn't pass 
it.
    Mr. Nadler. Would the gentleman yield?
    Ms. Fischer. You need Congress to go back to Washington and 
pass strong gun violence prevention legislation.
    Mr. Nadler. Would the gentleman yield?
    Chair Jordan. No, I'm going to go to Mr. DiGiacomo.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, are you grandstanding?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Not at all. Honestly, I am here--
    Chair Jordan. You're representing the detectives of this 
great town, right?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Absolutely, and very proud of it. I am not 
here other than to ask for help. Someone just said that we 
can't do anything here. Well, if the people of the U.S. 
Congress can't do anything to help us, we're in a lot of 
trouble because there are some powerful people around this 
table that could help and stop the violence and make the 
streets safer for the people of New York City and the police 
officers and detectives that serve them. We're here for help. 
We need help.
    Chair Jordan. Thank you. I thank the gentleman from Texas, 
and the gentleman yields back.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Pennsylvania, 
Ms. Dean.
    Ms. Dean. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank all the witnesses 
for being here today.
    Mr. Nadler. Would the gentlelady yield for a moment?
    Ms. Dean. Yes, Mr. Nadler.
    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. I just want to answer Mr. Jordan's 
question. Last year, when we were in control, the Democrats in 
the House passed very comprehensive gun control legislation. 
The Democrats in the Senate voted for very comprehensive gun 
control legislation. Because of the filibuster, you needed 60 
votes. We got no Republican votes, and that's why it didn't 
pass.
    I thank the gentlelady. I yield back.
    Ms. Dean. I echo the statistics that were just offered by 
the Ranking Member, Mr. Nadler.
    Democrats have been working to reduce crime, to reduce gun 
violence crime wherever we can. Let me say everyone, I believe 
everyone in this room has sympathy for the horrific stories, 
the horrific losses of life, the horrific attacks, the anti-
Semitic attack on your son. We have great sympathy. We hear 
you.
    You are properly raising your voices. Don't let anything 
that we have to say indicate that we don't think you should be 
lifting your voices. There is an underlying sham going on here. 
I know you don't like to hear it. Your voices are important. 
Two things can be true at the same time.
    We are not properly here. It is not our jurisdiction to 
oversee or to interfere with an independent District Attorney's 
Office. We are not properly here. This is not our jurisdiction. 
I wish--
    Ms. Harrison. None of us are asking you to interfere.
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady controls the time.
    Ms. Dean. It is proper that you raise your voices, but it 
is hypocritical that we are here. If this Committee wants to do 
something about violence in this country, about the horrific 
losses of life, do something. Work on legislation with us.
    This weekend, two more mass shootings. Is that calling your 
attention? Are you up in arms to say, what in God's name can we 
do to reduce the slaughter of our children, your children, our 
children?
    It's the third Monday of April, and so far, this year more 
than 5,000 people have been killed by gun violence; another 
9,200 caught in the crossfire. Nearly 500 children and 
teenagers have died because of rampant gun violence. We know 
that number of families devastated, and lives forever altered 
is even larger. We're only in the fourth month.
    None of this is new. Hearing after hearing, one Congress to 
the next, the numbers keep repeating themselves. More than 200 
people a day shot; 40,000 people a year killed by guns. We know 
all this. Facts are supposed to influence action. Horrifying 
facts are supposed to elicit a response. Yet, my Republican 
colleagues prefer gesturing about violent crime rather than 
doing something about it.
    I'm reminded of the character in Succession, the late Logan 
Roy, said: ``You are not serious people.'' If you are serious 
about doing something about violence, gun violence, and other:

         . . . the House passed a universal background checks bill: 
        Sixty-three percent of Republican gun owners support it, yet 
        only eight of my Republican colleagues supported the bill; 202 
        of them voted against it, including every Republican Member in 
        this room.

Again, not serious people.
    Assault weapons are the firearm of choice in mass 
shootings. The Democratic House last Congress voted to ban 
these weapons of war. Only two Republicans out of 211 voted for 
it. Neither is in this room today. When Senate Republicans were 
finally motivated to action by the horrific slaughter of babies 
in Uvalde, did my Republican colleagues here join? No, not a 
single one of them voted for the bipartisan Safer Communities 
Act.
    Make no mistake. If the concern about addressing violent 
crime addressed by my Republican colleagues was genuine, they 
would have acted. There would be more for us to be talking with 
you about here. We're only here today because Chair Jordan and 
his colleagues want to make a show of defending a former 
failed, twice-impeached, crooked President.
    This is not serious. Violent crime is a grave national 
issue. It demands serious consideration by legislators who want 
to make a difference and to save lives. That is reserved for 
us.
    I yield the remainder of my time to Mr. Goldman.
    Mr. Borgen. Can I ask you, why isn't anybody blaming the 
shooter? You're always blaming guns. No one blames the shooter. 
They're crazy people. Everybody blames the guns.
    Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. Mr. Borgen, 
the Committee will be in order.
    The gentlelady had I believe like 18 seconds, and she'll be 
yielding to Mr. Goldman.
    Mr. Goldman. Yes.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Goldman. I want to be very clear to all of you, as 
reflected in my statements, that we are all very, very 
concerned about your stories. We are concerned about every 
victim. I was a prosecutor for 10 years. Victims' rights are 
essential.
    What we're talking about here is something that the State 
needs to deal with. The reason why we're saying this is a 
political theater is that we don't have jurisdiction to do 
anything about what you're concerned about. So, I just want you 
to understand that.
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady's time is expired.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Oregon, Mr. 
Bentz.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for holding this 
hearing.
    Thank you, witnesses, for being here and sharing with us 
your incredibly challenging stories.
    Quote: ``The justice system is not cooperating.'' This is a 
quote from one of the retailers here in your town: ``The 
justice system is just not cooperating.'' It's getting to a 
point where you either have to padlock every item that has to 
be stolen or could be stolen or you have to fight back, and if 
you fight back, you take the risk of going to jail for 
protecting your property.
    That's one of the reasons we're here. Here's several more 
because I've heard a lot of suggestions that we're here for 
reasons having nothing to do with why I'm here.
    This city has 8.5 million people. That is twice what my 
State has. It has 58 million people within 250 miles. It is 
four million larger than our next largest city, which would be 
Louisiana. It has a GDP of $1.56 trillion. This is an asset we 
should be doing everything to protect, and particularly the 
people within it.
    Mr. Holden, drawing your attention to the next-to-last 
paragraph in your testimony, it appears that you believe that 
we in Congress can actually do something. You actually talk 
about what we might do.
    So, I would like you just to elaborate just a bit so that 
people aren't thinking that we're just here for show, we can 
actually do something. Can you go to that next-to-last 
paragraph and share your thoughts?
    Mr. Holden. Yes. When the public is not being protected, 
when we fear for our safety day in and day out, we lose our 
freedom. If Congress can't do something, then I don't think 
anyone can.
    You can do this with funding. You can do this with 
certainly Federal attorneys jumping in, prosecutors. There's a 
lot of things I think Congress can do. I'm here because--and as 
a Democrat, I don't agree with a lot of my party's stances on 
things, and I'm more of an independent person, but I've been on 
six years in the city council, and they've never held a hearing 
on victims' rights. They hold hearings on criminal rights and 
how they're not being treated properly. I get that; that's 
important to have. What about victims' rights? Six years on the 
city council, on the Public Safety Committee, not one hearing.
    Mr. Bentz. Mr. Holden, I'm going to interrupt, if I may. 
I'm going to stick with you, though.
    Because you also say in your letter--and this is a response 
to Ranking Member Nadler's questions about percentages and 
crime reduction, but you note in your testimony about cherry 
picking of statistics. So, I want you to talk about that for 
just for a second.
    You note that it's easy to twist these numbers around. I'm 
kind of reminded about something that was said a little 
earlier, that it's easy to focus on percentages, but we should 
be focusing on the real numbers, as Mr. Tiffany pointed out, 
the thousands when we talk about percentages as though it's 
meaningless. Tell me what you say in your letter.
    Mr. Holden. It's a real thing because I have businesses, 
and I have one individual who owns four gas stations in my 
district. He's from Southeast Asia. He's an immigrant. He is 
living the American Dream until recently, until 2019 is when 
the bail reform package went through the State. He says: ``A 
good day for me in my four gas stations is when I'm not held 
up. We consider it a good day.''
    He's losing 2,000 or 3,000 dollars a day in the four gas 
stations with petty theft and being held up.
    It's a serious issue. We fought to get crime--we had 17 
straight years in New York city of crime reduction up until 
2019, when they pushed the bail reform and discovery through 
the State. Now crime is going up. Again, 13 years we've had an 
increase in crime.
    So, anybody cherry picking those numbers, anybody who is a 
real New Yorker knows that we had low crime, and we were proud 
of that. We were the safest city in the United States. Not 
anymore.
    Mr. Bentz. Thank you. We're just a few seconds left, and I 
just want to say that I'm happy we're here in New York, but for 
those of you who want to see the consequences of lax 
prosecution practices, come to Portland, Oregon, and look at 
what's happened to that beautiful city where I went to law 
school years ago, and you can wander around in downtown 
Portland without fear of anything happening. The restaurants 
were great. The cultural scene was great.
    In the last three years, that has changed so dramatically 
it is ridiculous. If you want to see what happens when you 
don't prosecute people for throwing bricks through windows, 
starting fires in downtown, running everybody else out, come to 
Portland. It's so incredibly sad.
    I'm going to come back to New York for a moment. My last 
little phrase here is, despite what you folks are enduring here 
as a result of runaway progressivism, you still have these 
wonderful people, the police working for you, and I'm happy for 
that.
    I tell you, as I sit here listening to Democrat politicians 
use rampant crime and violence to justify more restrictions on 
possession of firearms, I must say, please, let's turn our 
attention to the good things we can do in Congress.
    With that, I thank you all and yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. I thank the 
gentleman.
    The gentleman from Maryland, Mr. Ivey, is recognized for 
five minutes.
    Mr. Ivey. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Just a brief response to that. I mean, yes, we're thinking 
about gun control and trying to reduce gun violence, because of 
Nashville and Louisville and Alabama yesterday. So, it seems to 
me that it's unsustainable. We need to do something to address 
it. You know, I believe the Second Amendment is important, but 
I think protecting second-graders from being killed is 
important as well.
    Ms. Harrison, Ms. Brame, and Mr. Borgen, I want to commend 
you. I was a prosecutor for 12 years, four as a Federal 
prosecutor, eight as a local prosecutor in Maryland, which is 
kind of the birthplace of the victims' rights movement.
    So, I understand that what you're doing and the role that 
you play. In fact, it really transformed the criminal justice 
system in the nineties and in the 2000s, and I encourage you to 
continue on. You don't need that. I can tell just by what I've 
heard from you today, you're going to sustain it and keep 
fighting on behalf of your loved ones, but I commend you for 
what you've done.
    I did want to say this with respect to whether this is 
serious or not. I'm not going to look in people's hearts and 
try and judge the motives for whether these hearings are 
serious or not or what's behind them, but I'll say this: We've 
got Republican colleagues who have introduced legislation to 
eliminate the ATF, eliminate the FBI. Mr. Trump called for 
defunding the Department of Justice and the FBI.
    As a former Federal prosecutor, I can tell you that, if you 
get rid of those three agencies, there's no Federal mechanism 
or arm to actually prosecute violent crime at the Federal 
level. That means terrorism. That means gangs. That means 
multi-State issues.
    The big takedown of the Sinaloa Cartel on Friday, I think 
the reason we were able to do that was because we had a strong 
Federal Government that was able to cross Federal lines and 
international lines and complete those prosecutions. So, I 
certainly oppose the defund the Federal law enforcement arms 
that we've had discussions about.
    With respect to the funding in general, I think even at the 
local level the Federal Government can and has been helpful and 
should be more helpful too from a funding standpoint.
    I think it's right we can't really meddle in local 
prosecutions per se, but funding for victims' rights, for 
resources for training, for hiring and retention of police 
officers, because I know police departments are competing now 
for a shortage of officers, so I think it's important for us to 
try and step in in that way.
    I would encourage my colleagues on the other side to speak 
about the specific types of proposals they would put forward at 
the Federal level to address the local crime issues that you're 
talking about here today because I haven't heard any so far.
    With that, I'll yield the remainder of my time to Mr. 
Goldman.
    Mr. Goldman. Thank you, Mr. Ivey.
    Mr. Borgen, I understand that your son was the victim of an 
anti-Semitic attack. I'm terribly sorry to hear this. Anti-
Semitism hits all of us, regardless of party.
    Now that we have recently learned that George Santos, who 
not only remains in Congress but is announcing his reelection 
campaign today, is not actually Jewish, the Ranking Member and 
I are the only Jewish members from the entire State of New 
York. We are deeply concerned about anti-Semitism in New York, 
which has increased more than 400 percent in the past eight 
years.
    Now, today we've already heard two Members of the majority 
reference what one called the Sorosization of criminal justice, 
the criminal justice system, which is, of course, a reference 
to George Soros, a Holocaust survivor who lived the American 
Dream. Many more have said the same.
    My constituents are very concerned that these smears 
related to Mr. Soros-supported prosecutors are anti-Semitic. Do 
you believe they're anti-Semitic?
    Mr. Borgen. Well, here's my answer to that. I know Soros is 
Jewish. He can't be anti-Semitic. I can't believe that, 
especially--
    Mr. Goldman. No, what people say when they use Soros.
    Mr. Borgen. Soros is politics. He's just a liberal lefty 
politician. I don't think it has nothing to do with what his 
beliefs are. What he wants to create, whatever he wants to 
create, it's his business.
    Mr. Goldman. All right. I appreciate that. I don't have a 
lot of time, I'm sorry.
    Mr. Borgen. Mark Levin, who just got elected from Lower 
Manhattan, got a petition signed with 29 signatures protesting 
this conference. I don't know if you're aware of it.
    Mr. Goldman. Can I just reclaim my time, because I only 
have 20 seconds.
    I want to mention that when I was walking in here today, 
there was a man outside with a sign. I would just like to hold 
this sign up.
    Mr. Borgen. I saw it.
    Mr. Goldman. You saw it, right? There's a Star of David 
with two-dollar signs and Soros.
    Mr. Borgen. That's disgusting.
    Mr. Goldman. Would you say that's anti-Semitic?
    Mr. Borgen. It's 100 percent anti-Semitic, and it's 
disgusting.
    Mr. Goldman. Right.
    Mr. Borgen. It's disgusting.
    Mr. Goldman. I yield back my time.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Virginia, Mr. 
Cline.
    Mr. Cline. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I want to echo the comments from Mr. Holden. Your 
allegiance is to your constituents. Each one of us is here 
because of our constituents. Our allegiance is to our 
constituents as well.
    My constituents live in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia. 
It feels about as far away from New York City sometimes as you 
can get. The floor that I was on in my hotel last night was 
taller than any building in my entire home county, Botetourt 
County.
    Our hearts are with the people of New York City. Our hearts 
are with the victims of these crimes that are being committed 
against the people of New York City. Every crime has a victim. 
It's not just about numbers. It's about real people, as Mr. 
Tiffany was saying.
    We are hearing some of the stories. I want to thank you all 
for being brave to come here and share your stories with us. 
We're grateful to you. My constituents are scared because 
they're watching what's happening in New York City, and they 
know that the Shenandoah Valley, if they adopt the wrong 
policies, if they elect the wrong prosecutors, their lives 
could turn for the worse and their cities and counties could be 
full of crime as well.
    The policies that have been adopted in New York City are 
policies that were just adopted in Virginia. When Democrats 
took over the House and Senate and the Governor's Mansion 
between 2019-2021, they reversed policies that were put in 
place in 1995 that abolished parole, instituted mandatory 
minimum sentences and presumptions against bail. Those are all 
gone now.
    We're worried, quite frankly, in Virginia, because we see 
the impact of those policies here in New York, along with the 
falling apart of what I consider to be a three-legged stool. 
When it comes to the fight against crime, you need three legs 
of a stool: You need police who are going to arrest, you need 
prosecutors who are going to prosecute, and you need judges who 
are going to put people in jail.
    Here in New York, you don't have those three legs. I'll let 
you decide how many legs you have and how strong those are. 
When you get rid of the policies like a presumption against 
bail that we got rid of in Virginia, like the bail policies 
that you have here, the ending of cash bail here in New York 
City, it's like termites eating away at that stool.
    So, no matter how strong you have in terms of your mayor, 
who's a former police chief, or your police chief now, if you 
lose those legs or if you have the stool being eaten away, you 
see the spike in crime that's happened. We have a spike in 
crime here in New York City: 1,500 rapes, up seven percent, 
robberies up 26 percent, felony assaults up 13 percent, 
burglaries up 23 percent, grand larcenies up 26 percent, auto 
thefts up 32 percent, all accounting for a 23-percent increase 
in major crimes in just the last year.
    So, you have a problem in New York, one that we're afraid 
could spread to other places, like my area of Virginia. We 
talked about the use of taxpayer dollars.
    Ms. Brame, you talked about the lack of services that you 
received. So, we inquired about how many taxpayer dollars go to 
New York City and to Alvin Bragg's office. The DA's Office 
receives $204,730 in Federal grant money during current award 
period from the Department of Justice's Justice Assistance 
Grant Program, which is subgranted to the city of New York, 
goes toward addressing violent and other felony crimes in our 
jurisdiction.
    More interestingly and more to your point, the DA's Office 
received $583,111 in Federal grant money yearly this past year 
from the Victims of Crime Victim and Witness Assistance Grant 
Program, which is subgranted through the New York State Office 
of Victim Services. Use of these funds is to be used to provide 
information to victims and their families related to the 
prosecution of cases and assisting victims with understanding 
the criminal justice system. Over half a million dollars 
sitting in Alvin Bragg's office to help people like you.
    Do you feel like you got help from Alvin Bragg as the case 
was going forward?
    Ms. Brame. No, I received no help from his office. Me and 
my family, we were treated like garbage. I can't describe it 
any more than what I have already. It was the most horrific 
experience that I've ever experienced. It was just bad.
    Mr. Cline. Were you alerted? When the plea deals were cut 
for two of those offenders, were you alerted to those plea 
deals when they were cut?
    Ms. Brame. No.
    Mr. Cline. Were you allowed to put a victim statement into 
the record?
    Ms. Brame. Not for Mary Saunders, not upon her sentencing. 
For Travis Stewart, I did and for the other two. They dismissed 
those gang assault and those murder indictments behind my back.
    Mr. Cline. That's abhorrent and did not do justice to you 
or to the son that you lost, and we apologize.
    Ms. Brame. Not at all, not at all.
    Mr. Cline. I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
    Before recognizing the gentleman from New York, I see we're 
joined by one of our other colleagues, the gentlelady from here 
in New York City, Staten Island.
    Ms. Malliotakis, thank you for joining us and for your 
concern about what's happening here.
    We now recognize, pursuant to the agreement reached with 
Mr. Nadler's staff, the gentleman from New York for 2\1/2\ 
minutes.
    Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Mr. Chair, again, and thank you, 
Mr. Johnson for giving me some previous time.
    I want to continue my previous statement. Back in the late 
eighties and nineties, this was a tough town. It was tough to 
live here. Crime was really very violent. As I said earlier, 
during that period, I had the opportunity to work for a victim 
services agency, providing services for crime victims. I was 
also the president of a 34-precinct community council.
    If there's one thing that I really learned during those two 
decades was that you cannot really simply talk about crime 
without talking about guns. You just can't do it because 80 
percent of the homicides are committed by guns. Now, we're not 
minimizing the other 20 percent. They're also equally 
important. Eighty percent are committed by guns.
    This past Easter Sunday, a young man gets shot and killed 
on 137th Street, not too far from where Mr. Alba used to work. 
Why? A gun. Just this weekend in Alabama, just this weekend, 
this Saturday, four people shot and killed. With what? A gun. A 
shooter in a Louisville bank kills five people. With what? With 
a gun. The horrific elementary school shooting in Tennessee 
that left six people killed, including three children. With 
what? With a gun. Some of my colleagues after that shooting 
wore their AR-15 pins on their lapels and tie clips--I think 
mocking the death of those innocent kids.
    So, a gun is the common denominator in eight out of 10 
homicides. How can we take that away? We cannot do that. We 
must continue to fight for commonsense gun law. You know why? 
I'll ask you all that are here today. You want to find out why 
guns are not being talked about? Follow the money. Follow the 
money.
    Go into each and every one of our campaign accounts and 
figure out who's getting money from the NRA. Just follow the 
money. That's a phrase that's usually used on a common basis 
here in New York City. Very simple. Who is the NRA supporting?
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired. The 
gentleman yields back.
    The gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Fry, is recognized.
    Mr. Fry. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank you for 
holding this hearing today in one of the most iconic cities in 
the world, New York City.
    I want to especially thank the witnesses, the victims, for 
your bravery today. It's not easy to come here to talk about 
this in the public square, but thank you for doing that.
    When people think of the United States, they think of this 
city, as was talked about earlier. If you can make it here, you 
can make it anywhere. Underneath all of those twinkling lights, 
something is not right in New York City. Shootings in Times 
Square, robberies in broad daylight, stabbings on the subway.
    I got into a cab yesterday. The gentleman who was driving 
had been doing it for 25 years. Without knowing who I was or 
why I was here, he proceeded to talk about the city. He said: 
``This city has changed.''
    I asked him what he meant by that. He immediately started 
talking about the crime: ``It's gotten so bad. It's out of 
control.''
    This, unfortunately, is what we get in Joe Biden's America 
and Alvin Bragg's New York City. To the good people of New 
York, we hear you. We are here in New York today because we 
want to hear from you, and we hope that your local leaders 
start to listen to you as well.
    When the hearing was first noticed, the District Attorney 
released a statement that we were coming to the, and I quote, 
``safest big city in America and that this hearing was a 
political stunt.''
    You want to know the real political stunt? Politicians in 
New York and other places continually pushing failed policies, 
despite knowing that they don't work. Let's talk about this for 
a second.
    According to the New York Police Department, in Alvin 
Bragg's first year in public office in 2022, rapes are up seven 
percent, felony assaults rose 13 percent, robberies spiked 26 
percent, burglaries were up 23 percent, grand larcenies up 26 
percent, auto theft has risen 32 percent. There were 170 
felonies in New York City in 2022 alone, the most since 2006. 
Does that sound like the safest big city in America? I think 
not.
    The question is why? New York State eliminated cash bail 
for most crimes, tying the hands of judges and law enforcement. 
Alvin Bragg's ``Day 1 Memo,'' which outlined his office's 
position that he would not prosecute certain types of crimes. 
In addition, rather than approach each case on the facts of the 
offense committed, his office is focused on how much money you 
make, your circumstances, or your immigration status before 
deciding whether to charge a crime. Of course, as was already 
talked about, defunding $1 billion out of the New York Police 
Department's budget.
    Fifty-two percent of felony charges are downgraded to 
misdemeanors in this District Attorney's Office, the highest 
number in years. Of the felonies they actually decide to 
prosecute, his office was only successful in securing the 
conviction on 50 percent of those, the lowest number in years. 
On misdemeanors, 29 percent of misdemeanor charges resulted in 
conviction.
    If you listen to the District Attorney, he sounds and acts 
more like a public defender than a prosecutor. If you want to 
defend criminals, be a public defender. If you want to change 
policy, run for the State assembly.
    Instead of partnering with the New York Police Department 
to prosecute these crimes, he seems hostile. It's no wonder 
that officers in the New York Police Department are resigning 
at a record rate. According to a recent article by the New York 
Post, there is a 117-percent increase in cops resigning in 2022 
alone. That's the most since right after 9/11.
    Regarding New York's bail law, the John Jay College of 
Criminal Justice found that approximately 72 percent of violent 
felony offenders who were released without bail were re-
arrested.
    Recidivism is so bad in New York that 327 individuals were 
arrested for more than 6,000 crimes of retail theft. That's not 
giving somebody a second chance. That's letting them do the 
same thing over and over again to about 20 times and still 
letting them off the hook. If at first you don't succeed, try, 
try again. Maybe the 21st time they'll wake up.
    From an interview in January, District Attorney Bragg said 
he knows what's going on in the streets. Does he? It doesn't 
sound like it.
    Ms. Brame, I want to start with you and then to the other 
victims. Who benefits more in this city, law-abiding citizens 
or criminals?
    Ms. Brame. Can you repeat that, please?
    Mr. Fry. Who benefits more in this city, law-abiding 
citizens or criminals?
    Ms. Brame. Oh, absolutely criminals, 100 percent.
    Mr. Fry. Ms. Harrison?
    Ms. Harrison. The criminals.
    Mr. Fry. Mr. Borgen, the same question?
    Mr. Borgen. Unfortunately, it's the criminals who are 
getting all the perks.
    Mr. Fry. Ms. Brame, have you spoken to the District 
Attorney about your son's case?
    Ms. Brame. Absolutely not, no response.
    Mr. Fry. If you could speak to him today about it, what 
would you say?
    Ms. Brame. I would demand that he reopen that gang assault 
and that murder case against Mary Saunders and Travis Stewart. 
If no one is above the law, prove it. Prove it by prosecuting 
them. Bring that case to trial.
    Mr. Fry. Thank you for your time today.
    Mr. Chair, I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
    The gentleman from New York is recognized for 2\1/2\ 
minutes.
    Mr. Goldman. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    Ms. Brame, you said earlier that you are only hearing about 
Donald Trump from one side and not the other. I want to tell 
you that's very, very intentional because they know that they 
are using taxpayer money to defend a private citizen in his own 
criminal investigation and that is an abuse of their power.
    The day before this investigation began, public reporting 
revealed that Donald Trump and his legal team directed House 
Republicans to initiate an investigation into Alvin Bragg.
    They're now scrambling to justify this investigation with 
after-the-fact explanations, including the preposterous 
explanation that he spent $5,000 of Federal money on this 
years-long investigation. They have spent many multiples of 
that amount of money on this hearing alone to hold it in 
Manhattan.
    Now, I've asked the Chair and other Members of House 
leadership to tell the American public what kind of collusion 
they have been doing with Donald Trump to use the power of this 
Committee and of this Congress to interfere in this 
prosecution. They have thus far refused. We will learn about 
that collusion because the Manhattan District Attorney has a 
lawsuit against the Chair, and they will be able to compel 
disclosure of the communication and coordination as part of 
that lawsuit. That's why we are here, and that's what we want 
to emphasize to you.
    We're not insulting you. Your experiences are devastating. 
The problem is, is that this is a charade to cover up for an 
abuse of power that they are going around talking incessantly 
outside of this hearing about Donald Trump, and the purpose of 
this hearing is to cover up for what they know to be an 
inappropriate investigation.
    Now, I look forward--many of you in New York City--
    Ms. Brame. Can I respond to you, please?
    Mr. Goldman. Not right now, because I only have 20 seconds. 
I'm sorry. I do want--
    Ms. Brame. Don't insult my intelligence, that you're not 
going to do.
    Chair Jordan. Hang on. The gentleman's time.
    Ms. Brame. You're trying to insult me like I'm not aware of 
what's going on here, OK? I'm fully aware of what's going on 
here. OK?
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady will suspend.
    The gentleman gets another 15 seconds.
    Mr. Goldman. Thank you.
    Ms. Brame. That's why I walked away from the plantation of 
the Democratic Party.
    Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order.
    Mr. Goldman. Ms. Brame, what I was about to say is that, as 
a Representative of this city, I'm looking forward to working 
with you, with Ms. Harrison, Mr. Holden, Mr. Borgen, all of you 
who are involved and engaged in our criminal justice system 
because, as I said and my colleagues have referenced, we do 
have a problem not only in New York City but around the 
country.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Goldman. So, hopefully we can work together--
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
    Mr. Goldman. --to reach real solutions, not charades like 
this. I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady from New York, Ms. Stefanik, 
is recognized for five minutes.
    Ms. Stefanik. As a native New Yorker, born and bred, I 
think it's important to note that many of the Democrats on this 
Committee have smeared brave victims and fellow New Yorkers 
here today, calling them ``props,'' a ``circus,'' a 
``performance,'' ``MAGA Broadway props,'' and an ``underlying 
sham.''
    What have Republicans focused on? We've focused on giving 
victims a voice. We've focused on crimes.
    We've focused on your story as a father visiting your son 
at the hospital, seeing his face beaten in with an anti-Semitic 
hate crime.
    We're focused, Ms. Brame, on your story as a mother 
grieving the loss--rightfully grieving the loss and advocating 
on behalf of your son and his legacy.
    Ms. Harrison, we heard your story about losing your loved 
one.
    Mr. Alba, we heard your story, just the personal challenges 
you face dealing with the consequences of the vicious crime 
committed, perpetrated against you.
    In addition to House Democrats belittling the victims here 
today, Democrats have politicized this hearing, mentioning 
Donald Trump 38 times. That number for Republicans is zero. We 
are focused on victims and making sure that we support law and 
order in this country.
    There is a catastrophic crime crisis across America, 
specifically in our great cities and great cities like New 
York. New Yorkers know it. Americans know it.
    While Democrats on this committee may claim that New York 
is not the epicenter, look no further than the last November 
election where we flipped four Congressional seats, delivering 
the House majority. What was the number-one issue? It was 
crime. Because voters are smart. The people are smart.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, as a member--as a longtime member of law 
enforcement, I wanted to get your testimony today. How long 
have you served in law enforcement?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Approximately 40 years.
    Ms. Stefanik. In those 40 years, would you say the crime 
crisis today is worse than you've ever seen it?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
    Ms. Stefanik. Crime is up.
    Is it fair to say it is a result of failed bail reform 
policies in Albany and Alvin Bragg's ``Day 1 Memo''?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. One hundred percent.
    Ms. Stefanik. Here are some important numbers. In 2022, 
District Attorney Bragg's first year as DA, New York City saw a 
23 percent surge in major crimes. Is that true?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
    Ms. Stefanik. From 2019-2022, murders are up 93 percent.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
    Ms. Stefanik. From 2019-2022, robberies are up 43 percent.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
    Ms. Stefanik. Felony assaults are up 32 percent.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
    Ms. Stefanik. It's fair to say that law enforcement 
strongly opposed Bragg's ``Day 1 Memo'' and failed bail reform 
policies in Albany?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. One hundred percent.
    Ms. Stefanik. Mr. DiGiacomo, in fact, you have said, quote,

        Bragg gives criminals the roadmap to freedom from prosecution 
        and control of our streets. In Bragg's Manhattan, you can 
        [resist] arrest, deal drugs, obstruct arrest, and even carry a 
        gun to get away with it.

    Can you please expound about why law enforcement opposes 
Alvin Bragg's ``Day 1'' policy and opposes failed bail reform?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, because, again, every time a detective 
or a police officer puts himself or herself in harm's way 
arresting a felon or anyone for any crime, they're released 
immediately with no consequences.
    Ms. Stefanik. Mr. Borgen, as a family member of a victim of 
a heinous violent crime, your son, as you talked about, was a 
victim of a violent anti-Semitic hate crime committed at a pro-
Israel event. Your son was jumped, beaten, and sprayed with 
mace.
    In fact--and I think it's important for the American people 
and my colleagues across the aisle to hear this--your son 
describes this as,

        A whole crowd of people proceeded to kick me, punch me, beat me 
        down. I felt a liquid being poured on my face, and, at first, I 
        thought I was getting urinated on, but it turned out I was 
        getting maced and pepper sprayed. My face was on fire. That 
        pain was worse than the concussion and all this other stuff 
        that followed.

Yet, the attacker said, ``If I could do it again, I would do it 
again.'' Yet, District Attorney Alvin Bragg gave him a 
sweetheart deal.
    What is your message to District Attorney Alvin Bragg?
    Mr. Borgen. Well, the man is incompetent, obviously, in the 
big scheme of things. Unfortunately, our hands are tied. He can 
come to us--he offered him other deals; my son did not accept 
them.
    Right now, the court case is pending, and different deals 
are passing on from back and forth, but between me and you, I 
lost faith in the justice system with Alvin Bragg. I don't feel 
anything's going to get done. Like in the other cases also, her 
son's attackers walking around scot-free like nothing happened. 
It's a disgrace.
    I just want to say to you, Mr. Ivey, I compliment you. 
You're the only one who sat here on the Democratic side, didn't 
bring up Donald Trump. You're a mensch. You talk straight. You 
didn't look to make partisan politics here. I want to 
compliment you.
    Ms. Stefanik. Ms. Harrison, what's your message to Alvin 
Bragg?
    Ms. Harrison. I'm a walking example of not ever being 
whole, 18 years after losing a loved one under horrific 
circumstances and not seeing justice. My life will never, ever 
be complete without Kevin.
    Knowing that the murderers' families are walking free, 
spending Christmases and Easters with their family--it's beyond 
comprehension.
    So, I hope that he will pay attention to what's happening 
here today and realize the effect that he's having on survivors 
of homicide victims for the rest of their lives.
    Ms. Stefanik. Thank you to the victims for the bravery, 
sharing their stories.
    Thank you to our former law enforcement officers for your 
leadership.
    Yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back.
    Just to the witnesses, now we'll just be on this side. I 
think the Democrats have all went. It's about 40 more minutes. 
If you've got to step out, just please let us know, but we want 
every member to get a chance to talk to you. If you need to 
step out, please excuse yourself, and Capitol Police will make 
sure you know where you're going out there.
    With that, I yield five minutes to the gentleman from 
Texas, Mr. Roy.
    Mr. Roy. I thank the Chair.
    Much has been made about why we are in New York City. In a 
memorable moment shortly before he was elected, former Mayor 
Rudolph Giuliani told an editorial board meeting he cared about 
statistics, but the real measure would be whether people 
actually feel safer. That, he said, ``was the ultimate test to 
policing and political leadership.''
    He said that in 1993, when New York was averaging 2,000 
murders a year. By 2013, it was down to 333 due to the strong 
support of law enforcement and the anti-crime policies adopted 
by the city. It got down to 288 by 2018, but now it is back up 
to the mid-400s.
    I think this is the question: Whether or not you feel safe. 
The question I'd ask of Ms. Brame, Ms. Harrison, others: Do you 
feel safe in New York City right now?
    Ms. Brame. No.
    Ms. Harrison. No.
    Mr. Roy. Mr. Alba, do you feel safe in New York City?
    The Interpreter. He said, ``At this moment, no.''
    Mr. Roy. All right.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, your history in law enforcement. You said 
it's as unsafe as you've ever seen it, today, in New York.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Yes, that's correct.
    Mr. Roy. Isn't that the ultimate measure? Isn't that the 
question?
    I think one of the things that I think merits focusing on 
is the question that my colleagues on the other side of the 
aisle have been talking about in terms of jurisdiction. What is 
the jurisdiction here?
    Mr. DiGiacomo, are you familiar with 922(g) and 924(c) in 
the Federal Code?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. No, I'm not. I'm sorry.
    Mr. Roy. The 922(g) being felons in possession, 924(c) 
being the ability to be able to go after somebody and give them 
a heightened sentencing for their use of firearms in crimes.
    My question here--
    [Disturbance in hearing room.]
    Mr. Roy. If we might suspend.
    Ms. Hageman. [Presiding.] The Committee will suspend.
    The gentleman is recognized to continue.
    Mr. Roy. All right. So, we're back on.
    The 922(g) and 924(c), these are Federal crimes, right? 
They're Federal crimes that--we have programs like Project Safe 
Neighborhoods that work with local law enforcement where we 
have the United States Attorney's Office in coordination to try 
to combat crime and the use of firearms in crimes.
    Now, I suppose we could go through and look at the laundry 
list of legislation that my colleagues on the other side of the 
aisle have introduced to repeal said Federal laws, that these 
Federal laws should not exist. If we want to have a debate 
about federalism, about that, I'm happy to have it. We're not 
doing that, are we? Because that's not what this is about. It's 
about show.
    The fact is, we do have Federal laws on the books to go 
after criminal misuse of firearms, but they're not being 
enforced, and they're also not being enforced at the local 
level. Those are the facts. The facts are we are letting 
criminals out of jail.
    If you look at the data, the data is clear. The average 
criminal has 11 prior arrests, five criminal exhibitions. 
Seventy-seven percent have five-plus prior arrests.
    Ms. Hageman. We need the crowd to be quiet, please.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Roy. Seventy-four percent have prior violent arrests. 
Thirty percent have prior arrests for guns and weapon offenses. 
Even though these individuals have lengthy criminal records, 52 
percent served a year or less. Sixty percent are re-arrested 
within two years of release. The fact is, we have a recidivism 
problem.
    We have now gone down the road of decarceration. Hundreds 
of thousands of criminals have been released. Just since 2020, 
the incarcerated population is down about 300,000, when it was 
2.1 million, which, by the way, was pretty far down from the 
levels when we had the safest numbers and the safest streets in 
this city.
    This isn't about some libertarian world view of letting out 
a few potheads who are allegedly rotting in jail. Eighty-eight 
percent of prisoners are incarcerated in State systems for 
murder, rape, robbery, and assault. That's responsible for most 
of those sentences. A mere 14 percent are in custody primarily 
for narcotic offenses, and the vast majority of these are 
felony trafficking crimes and misdemeanor possession.
    My question is for you, Mr. DiGiacomo: Do you think that we 
have a problem with the gun issue, or do you think we have a 
problem with letting criminals out on the streets?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, the criminals are being let out at an 
alarming rate.
    I just want to make it clear here that the guns--I'm 
speaking for New York City--the guns that are being used here 
in New York City are illegal guns. They're illegal guns that 
are brought here into New York City and being used to victimize 
the people of New York City.
    Mr. Roy. Are they being prosecuted heavily by the DA here?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. No, they're not.
    Mr. Roy. Right. Isn't that the problem?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. That is a major problem.
    Mr. Roy. Are they being prosecuted in coordination with the 
United States Attorney's Office, using 922(g) and 924(c) to 
prosecute them?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Not that I'm aware of, no.
    Mr. Roy. Right. Isn't that fundamentally the problem?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
    Mr. Roy. The question I have--my colleagues on the other 
side of the aisle have mentioned former President Trump a 
number of times.
    I would just ask, was it former President Trump, Ms. Brame, 
that killed your son?
    Ms. Brame. No.
    Mr. Roy. Ms. Harrison, was it former President Trump that 
killed your loved ones?
    Ms. Harrison. No.
    Mr. Roy. Was it former President Trump that stabbed Mr. 
Alba?
    Mr. Alba. No.
    Mr. Roy. Was it former President Trump that prosecuted Mr. 
Alba, prosecuted him for defending himself?
    Mr. Alba. No.
    Mr. Roy. No.
    I yield back.
    Ms. Hageman. The Chair recognizes the Representative from 
Texas, Mr. Nehls.
    Mr. Nehls. Thank you, Chair.
    All right. Check, check. Am I on? All right.
    As a former law enforcement officer for 30 years, sheriff 
of a large county in the great State of Texas, what I seen 
happening in our country is disturbing and should be of concern 
to all of us.
    Crime is at an all-time high. The American people can't 
trust their government. The left wants to defund the police 
because of law enforcement shootings where police acted 
inappropriately, and those officers were rightly charged and 
sentenced.
    What we saw in 2020 with riots, rioting across our country, 
led to numerous attacks on law enforcement and citizens, with 
hundreds of millions of dollars in damage to buildings.
    The left will rally their troops, they'll rally them, 
they'll get them all together in the name of social justice, 
but little is being made of the hundreds of victims of crime in 
Chicago and New York and other large cities run by liberals, 
because the victims and suspects of those crimes are 
predominantly Black and, in those cases, Black lives don't 
matter. They don't matter.
    Shame on them and the dishonest media. The dishonest media 
is the greatest threat, folks. You in the back, you are the 
greatest threat to this country. We've seen it, and the 
American people know it.
    Most people on the left, if not in this room, you've heard 
of Eric Garner. I'm sure you've heard of him. You've heard of 
George Floyd. You've heard of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown. 
You've heard of all those names. What about the hundreds of 
innocent victims in Chicago, Philadelphia, and Baltimore? 
You'll never hear their names. You'll never hear their names. 
Shameful.
    If you've watched the news lately, it's no shocker, Alvin 
Bragg likes to prosecute. He's even a fan of increasing 
misdemeanors to felonies for certain individuals he doesn't 
like. Some of those individuals--he said, ``he's the greatest 
danger to our country.''
    Mr. Bragg, I hope you're watching. I hope you're watching 
today, sir. You're a disgrace. You're a danger to this country. 
I will do everything I can in my power to hold you accountable. 
Your job, Mr. Bragg, is to protect the residents here in 
Manhattan. Decreasing felonies to misdemeanors--decreasing 
felonies to misdemeanors is dangerous and places the victim 
last.
    Mr. Kessler, I'll start with you. You worked for Senator 
Schumer and other Members on crime policy. That's great. So, I 
want to get your perspective on this ``Day 1 Memo.'' You're 
familiar--are you familiar with this?
    Mr. Kessler. I am not.
    Mr. Nehls. You're not familiar with this ``Day 1 Memo,'' 
and you've come here today? I should provide you a copy.
    According to the Manhattan DA, the aim of the ``Day 1 
Memo'' is to reduce Manhattan's over-incarceration issue and to 
deliver safety and fairness for all.
    So, I ask you--you're familiar--you're not familiar with 
the memo. The ``Day 1 Memo'' stated: The DA's office will not 
prosecute minor offenses that, quote, ``have no impact on 
public safety,'' end quote. So, let's talk about some of the 
things Alvin Bragg considers minor offenses.
    Resisting arrest. Can you tell me how not prosecuting this 
makes New York safer? Resisting arrest.
    Mr. Kessler. I'd have to see--
    Mr. Nehls. We're not going to prosecute it in New York.
    Mr. Kessler. OK.
    Mr. Nehls. We're not going to do it.
    Mr. Kessler. All right.
    Mr. Nehls. We're not going to do it.
    Did you ever ask law enforcement?
    Mr. DiGiacomo, how do you feel about that? How do your law 
enforcement officers feel about not prosecuting resisting 
arrest?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. They weren't happy about it, that's for 
sure.
    Mr. Nehls. You wonder why 1,400 officers left New York PD 
in 2022. Why in the hell would you work here? I'd go out into 
the suburbs, where you can go out there and fight crime and be 
respected. You're not getting that in these large cities such 
as Manhattan.
    You want to defund NYPD a billion dollars in 2020, and you 
wonder why we are in the State of Emergency we are in.
    Mr. Bragg laid out five sections of law that covers armed 
robberies and says, New York will not prosecute them. In short, 
according to this memo, if you hold a gun to a clerk's face and 
ask, ``Empty the trash''--``Empty the cash register, sir,'' we 
are going to take that and that's going to be a misdemeanor, no 
big deal. That's no big deal.
    How do you feel about that, Mr. Kessler? What if I come 
over there and I put my pistol and screw it in your ear, and I 
don't say anything bad to you, and we're just going to say, 
``Mr. Nehls, that's just a misdemeanor here in the great State 
of New York''?
    Mr. Kessler. Well, that has happened to me.
    Mr. Nehls. Well, sad, isn't it? How'd you feel about that?
    Mr. Kessler. I was pretty scared.
    Mr. Nehls. Pretty scared.
    Mr. Kessler. Yes.
    Mr. Nehls. We're going to consider that a misdemeanor here 
in the great New York.
    It's unacceptable. It's disgraceful. I wish I had more 
time.
    Ms. Hageman. Thank you.
    The Chair recognizes the Congressman from Wisconsin, Mr. 
Fitzgerald.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Pretrial release decisions. New York State law requires an 
annual report of pretrial release decisions made by New York 
City courts. The latest data, released in September 2022, shows 
the statistics of pretrial release granted to individuals 
across all categories of offense between 2019-2021. Here's a 
few takeaways from that.
    Since New York City repealed cash bail for certain 
nonviolent felonies in 2019, the instances of imposing bail 
have decreased across all categories of offense, including 
violent felonies.
    Release was granted in more than 75 percent of nonviolent 
felony cases in 2021. Of those released, 40 percent went on to 
commit another crime within 180 days, with 10 percent of those 
being violent felonies.
    In those cases where bail was actually set, which in 2021 
was about 12,000 cases, more than 3,700 of those had bail set 
at $1.
    I wanted to highlight those statistics for a couple of 
reasons. The first is to show that weak bail policies in New 
York City do, in fact, have an effect on violent crime. 
Thousands of violent felony offenders are being released under 
their own reconnaissance or, in some cases, like I said, for a 
dollar and then within six months are back in front of the same 
judge.
    Then the second is to say that the pretrial release 
statistics play an important role in helping the public and 
Congress, actually, understand whether a State's bail policies 
are contributing to a spike in violent crime.
    So, I'd ask this, and I'd ask Congress, that we should take 
up a bill, a bill that we've worked on in past Congresses, the 
Pretrial Release Reporting Act, so we can see how other States' 
bail policies are contributing to really an epidemic that's 
nationwide right now.
    So, Ms. Harrison, I was going to ask you, can you just 
comment, in general, on pretrial release statistics and the 
issues related to that not just in New York but nationwide?
    Ms. Harrison. As you mentioned, we see it across the board, 
all over the news, that people are killed or victimized by 
people that are released under pretrial least restrictive 
conditions--bail reform, cashless bail, and whatever you want 
to call it.
    We have over 305 people that are dead in New York because 
of bail reform. Christina Lee was murdered here in New York by 
somebody that was on supervised release, which really is 
nonexistent.
    So, across the board, across the country, it's awful, and 
it's victimizing people.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, I just wanted to get your opinion on how 
these types of pretrial decisions erode the relationship 
between law enforcement and the District Attorney's Office.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, I've always remembered the police and 
the District Attorney's Office worked together to help the 
victims of crime. I don't see that happening in Manhattan, and 
it's caused more people to die.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. It's got to be disheartening for officers 
on the street to go out, do their job on a daily basis, make 
the arrests, do the right thing, put their lives at stake, and 
then find out on the back end that the DA didn't follow through 
on either prosecuting or--at the end of the day, kind of a slap 
in the face when you find out that they were released on a $1 
decision?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, absolutely. Like I said earlier, every 
time you engage the criminal element, you're putting your life 
in harm's way.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Very good.
    Thank you.
    Chair Jordan. [Presiding.] I thank--
    Mr. Nehls. Can I take--
    Chair Jordan. Yep. Yep.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. I yield to the gentleman from Texas.
    Mr. Nehls. Thank you.
    When I think of victims of crime, being a sheriff, having 
to deal with it pretty much all my life, and I think about an 
individual having to protect himself, and when you have some 
type of a knucklehead--we've got one over here on this poster 
board--Mr. Alba, you had to deal with this guy's in your face, 
I felt and you felt scared, didn't you?
    Did you feel this guy was going to possibly kill you?
    Mr. Alba. Yes.
    Mr. Nehls. Maybe cause serious bodily injury, if not death?
    Mr. Alba. Yes.
    Mr. Nehls. Then you have a right--you have a right, as an 
American citizen, to use deadly force, sir, and eliminate that 
threat. You have a right to do that.
    Everybody in this room would agree with that, wouldn't you?
    I mean, when is it OK in America--
    Mr. Goldman. Would the gentleman yield for a minute--for a 
second, sir? Will you yield over here?
    Mr. Nehls. No.
    When is it--when can we look--if somebody puts a knife to 
you or a clerk at a cashier anywhere in this country and he's 
threatening to say, ``I'm going to kill you if you don't give 
your money,'' I would encourage the residents in the great 
State of Texas in my county to defend yourself. Defend 
yourself. You are given that God-given right. That means 
pulling out a weapon and put two at center mass. You'll reduce 
recidivism, won't you? You won't have a repeat offender.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
    The gentlelady from Indiana, Ms. Spartz, is recognized.
    Ms. Spartz. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    I'm a person that always believed that the greatest of our 
country is the freedoms and greatness of our people. As someone 
who came from a communist country, it appalled me, what's 
happened in our country. I'm sad that unfortunately the 
Congress became a circus and charade.
    Unfortunately, what's happened in your district is also a 
circus and charade. I appreciate people being here--Mr. Alba, 
Ms. Harrison, and Ms. Brame--and actually sharing your personal 
story, and I apologize on behalf of the Congress.
    I also appreciate Mr. Holden sitting here and actually 
willing to challenge your own party. I actually do it quite a 
lot. A lot of people in your party don't have that strength, 
and I hope we can see more of that.
    On the way here, one of my constituents texted me. We had a 
police officer suicide; we had a police officer killed in the 
district last year. We have a serious problem with our criminal 
justice system.
    Our government was stood up to protect people's rights to 
life, liberty, and property, and it's not doing it. People 
playing politics. It is one of the core functions, and this 
Committee has that function.
    So, I appreciate Mr. Chair actually having a field hearing. 
I actually appreciate my Democrat colleagues showed up this 
time. Because I hope we'll do more, because my city of 
Indianapolis has higher murder rates than city of Chicago, and 
we have a Democrat prosecutor. He is not enforcing the crimes--
the laws.
    The problem with what we have right now--and I actually 
agree with Mr. Goldman and Ms. Lofgren about jurisdiction. It's 
a challenge. I want to hear what we can do, what we should be 
doing. I hope we will have more discussion about jurisdiction, 
because we're overreaching significantly on the States' rights. 
As a former State Senator, I have huge problem with that.
    I also agree with--at least appreciate Mr. Ivey said, ``You 
know what? It's all about gun control.'' At least he's honest, 
OK? Not, like, do all these talking points.
    Like, I was listening to TV this morning. They already say, 
oh, OK, media came, talking about all the--I honestly don't 
give about him. I actually care what is happening in this 
country. I think it's important for us to hear from ``we the 
people'' because people are not heard and there is no lobby for 
the people in Washington, DC. So, hopefully you decide to be 
more active in that.
    I also think [inaudible] and Mr. Espaillat said, ``Follow 
the money.'' I actually would like to follow the money. Why are 
we not dealing with hospital monopolies the taxpayers are 
supporting so much? Why are we not dealing with the border 
situation that all those NGO's get money? Who knows what the 
hell they're doing with that and why we have the crises with 
all the situations?
    I want to try to ask you if we're going to find common 
ground, I actually on the Criminal Justice Subcommittee tried 
to pass some laws on a bipartisan basis, but is there any in 
your party except gun control?
    I know that Ms. Fischer, you mentioned about the safe 
storage and everything. I just don't see anything how I am and 
my kids are going to be safer if I lock up my guns. Actually, 
as a female, I feel not as safe. I don't know how long 
[inaudible] police officer will take them now to get to help 
us.
    So, I think we now--it's really strange for me. We try to 
take protection from law-abiding citizen and believe that 
criminals are not going to get guns?
    I mean, is there anything else except gun control? Maybe we 
should reform education and have some wraparound preventative 
services and have more competition in education, that these 
kids are actually taught some values, that don't have a 10 
percent or eight percent literacy rate, that they have to get 
into gangs.
    Is there anything else you can say except gun control?
    Ms. Fischer. So, comprehensive solutions to reducing 
violence in New York City have actually been incredibly 
effective. That's why if I--
    Ms. Spartz. Not do any in Congress--
    Ms. Fischer. --set the record straight, because we've been 
talking a lot about statistics, the NYPD's own data has shown 
that shootings are down in the first quarter 19 percent.
    Ms. Spartz. Yes, I think I don't need statistics.
    It doesn't sound like--
    Ms. Fischer. Homicides are down nine percent.
    Ms. Spartz. OK. OK.
    Mr. Kessler, my question for you: You've been talking a lot 
about trafficking and are we going to be talking about child 
trafficking, human trafficking, drug trafficking of the border 
and cartels actually doing this gun violence associated with 
it? Can we find common ground on that?
    Mr. Kessler. Let me try to--
    Ms. Spartz. I mean, is cartel not a problem? Can you tell 
me that trafficking of guns done by Mexican cartels and now 
subsidized with taxpayers' money--is it not a problem? Can we 
find a common ground on that?
    Mr. Kessler. Perhaps. So, if I--
    Ms. Spartz. Let's talk about that. I mean, why cannot we 
talk about that?
    Mr. Kessler. If I could just have 30 seconds to answer.
    Ms. Spartz. OK. Well, I don't have 30 seconds, but--
    Mr. Kessler. Back in the ``wayback machine,'' I helped 
with--Chuck Schumer worked on the 1994 crime bill, which I know 
not everybody loves, but one of the things about that crime 
bill--and it was a huge, comprehensive--it was one of the 
things that brought down crime in this country.
    One of the most important things about that crime bill--
Schumer gets a lot of credit for it. Henry Hyde, the Republican 
Ranking Member, worked on it closely with Schumer too. It was a 
bipartisan effort, and solutions was taken from both sides--
    Ms. Spartz. Let's talk about it, but not right now do it.
    Mr. Kessler. --it wasn't perfect, but the rates started to 
come down, and it was--
    Ms. Spartz. My time has expired, but we need to stop 
playing politics with people's life.
    I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back.
    The gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Moore, is recognized for 
five minutes.
    Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me say first, I 
appreciate you having this hearing.
    Let me set the record straight for the people in New York. 
This is not the first hearing on crime we've had since Mr. 
Jordan's been Chair. A few weeks ago, we went to Yuma, Arizona. 
We saw where people were coming across the border--106 
different Nations.
    A hundred-and-seven-thousand fentanyl deaths. We talk about 
mass shootings. We only had 74 people killed by mass shootings 
last year in America. We're losing more than that today, just 
in this hearing alone, to fentanyl poisoning.
    So, we've been out here, and we're going to go other areas 
where there's crime, and we're going to have hearings, because 
it's a concern. I mean, Victoria's right. We have to begin to 
address these issues that are threatening American citizens.
    So, Ms. Brame, you actually took one of my talking points a 
while ago. Crime doesn't--the criminal does not differentiate 
between a Republican and a Democrat. I was stabbed a few years 
ago, and I was glad the DA actually charged the man for 
attempted murder and put him behind bars. It made us all feel a 
little safer.
    So, thank you for being here. Ms. Harrison, thank you for 
being here. Mr. Alba, thank you for being here.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, I want to talk to you a little bit about 
just what we're seeing with the rules the DA came in with, this 
new rule, this set of rules. Are you seeing officers retire now 
and going to other lines of work as a result of the policies?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, I lost--600 detectives retired this 
year alone.
    Just to give a clear consensus on what that means, in 2001, 
in the terrorist attacks, we had 7,500 detectives. Right now, 
I'm working with 5,400 detectives. We're doing more 
investigative steps now than we were doing then because of the 
video canvasses. We're also doing counterterrorism duties, as 
well, here in New York City.
    Mr. Moore. What do you think the primary reason the 
detectives--you're losing that experience level. Why are they 
leaving?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, when you're a detective, you 
investigate crimes, and sometimes it takes months to 
investigate those crimes. There are reports that are this high, 
and the detective puts many, many hours, days, and weeks 
sometimes investigating those crimes, just for the individual 
to be let go. They're getting frustrated. They are frustrated 
is the real fact.
    Mr. Moore. I guess they risk these lives as they're 
investigating these crimes, as well, and they're risking their 
health?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Always. Always. Yes, always--New York City 
detectives do everything from patrol to climb the bridges and 
everything in between--homicide, special victims, and narcotic 
divisions. So, detectives and all police officers here in New 
York City do very dangerous work 24 hours a day.
    Mr. Moore. Mr. DiGiacomo, I've got a question. I find it 
interesting that when a law enforcement officer uses a weapon 
to defend themself or even in pursuit of a criminal, it's 
always the law enforcement officer's fault, but when it's the 
criminal using the gun, it's always the gun's fault.
    How do we address that in society? Why does the left always 
drive that narrative?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it's very simple. It's the person that 
is handling the gun. It's the criminal element that's using the 
gun and victimizing other people here in New York City and 
across this country.
    Mr. Moore. So, in some sense, it must be the person, the 
individual, responsible, not the law enforcement officer 
himself.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. One hundred percent.
    Mr. Moore. How do you find a man that--or a lady that wants 
to be a law enforcement--if she pulls her weapon in a life-
threatening situation and she shoots somebody, she's going to 
be tried for murder or he's going to be tried for some sort of 
crime, but if he doesn't pull his weapon, he ends up dying. How 
do you recruit people to go into that industry?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. It's a dying profession.
    Mr. Moore. That's scary for me, for our society, in 
general, if we cannot recruit good law enforcement officers. 
Then they're crucified by the left and the media when they act 
to save their selves or their partner's lives.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. If I may?
    Mr. Moore. Yes, please.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. There's no profession, at least here in New 
York City, that has more oversight than the New York City 
Police Department.
    Mr. Moore. Uh-huh.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. There are about 10 levels of oversight. No 
one else has that level of oversight like the New York City 
Police Department.
    Mr. Moore. Typically in society--and this is for all folks, 
in blue cities or any other cities. Often, they want to disarm 
law-abiding citizens, and they say, ``Well, call the police. If 
you have an intruder, call the police,'' and then, at the same 
time, they're defunding the police.
    What kind of situation, Ms. Harrison, does that put society 
in, when you can't defend yourself?
    Ms. Harrison. A horrible situation.
    At the same time, in the name of ending mass incarceration, 
as they like to gaslight everybody with, they're releasing very 
violent recidivists with no oversight, because they're removing 
any kind of parole supervision, bail supervision.
    So, we really do need to be able to defend ourselves in 
some way, shame, or form.
    Mr. Moore. Is that weapon--I mean, my daughters have 
concealed-carry permits. It's the equalizer, correct? For a 
lady who's being attacked by an assailant who's much bigger, 
much heavier, and much stronger, does it not equalize the 
playing field?
    Ms. Harrison. I believe it does.
    Mr. Moore. Thank you.
    With that, I'll yield back, Mr. Chair.
    Chair Jordan. I thank the gentleman.
    Witnesses, we've just got a few more, but these are very 
important Members, great people.
    We're going to go now with the gentlelady from Wyoming, Ms. 
Hageman.
    Ms. Hageman. Thank you.
    Thank you, for everyone, for being here.
    I represent the State of Wyoming. There are 560,000 people 
in my State. I grew up outside of a town of 350 people. I 
currently live in our largest city of 60,000 people.
    I want you to know, Mr. Alba, Ms. Harrison, Ms. Brame, and 
Mr. Borgen, we pay a lot of attention to what goes on here. We 
know about you.
    When I read about your situation, Mr. Alba, and what 
happened to you the next day after it happened, I prayed for 
you. I prayed for your family.
    As I read the testimony that you have provided to us today, 
it makes my heart break to know that you, as family members, 
have gone through something so devastating. To make it even 
worse, our criminal justice system has treated you so poorly 
since you have gone through these things.
    I will tell you; it has been interesting to listen to you 
talk about your loved ones, talk about the fear that you faced 
with this situation, Mr. Alba; the loss that you're still 
suffering from 18 years later after losing your loved one; how 
much love you have for your son, how much love you have for 
your son and your family and your community.
    I do want you to know that we're not here for 
grandstanding. We're not here for anything other than the fact 
that we're recognizing that across the country there is a 
sickness pervading our communities that is destroying who and 
what we are. It's not just about guns.
    I watched you, Ms. Fischer, as you secretly smiled at some 
of the Congress Members on the other side as people on our side 
talked about the gun issue. I understand you believe that it is 
an inanimate object that somehow can create the--or cause the 
mass shootings, that it's not the individual.
    One of the things that has struck me today is that, as we 
talk about these mass shootings, nobody has talked about the 
drugs that these people were on. Nobody has talked about the 
psychology of this.
    We just had a woman shoot and kill three young children and 
three teachers, and yet no one has talked about what kind of 
drugs she may have been taking, what kind of psychosis she was 
suffering from. Clearly, she was suffering from a psychosis. 
She claimed that she was a boy when she was a girl.
    We have to be looking at those kinds of things. It's not 
the guns. It's what we're teaching in school. It's the rot in 
our culture. It is the fact that we are losing our society 
because we're unwilling to recognize that there is evil, and 
when there's evil, we need to address it.
    When someone does something to your family members that is 
illegal, we need to take them off the streets. We don't need to 
try to figure out what may have happened in their background. 
If they've done something, if they've stabbed a beautiful young 
man, as they did your son, they need to be taken off the street 
and they need to be punished.
    We need to protect our law-abiding citizens, and we need to 
protect our communities. We also need to protect our police 
officers.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, the thing that has struck me, as I listen to 
the testimony, is the fear that I have--and you were just 
speaking about it a moment ago with my colleague Mr. Moore, 
about the impact that this is having on our law enforcement 
officers. You said something that was extremely jarring, which 
is, it's a dying profession. What that means is we're heading 
toward anarchy and lawlessness.
    When I was driving in last night from the airport, what 
struck me as I drove down the streets of this city that I 
love--I've spent a lot of time in New York City. Coming from 
Wyoming, I love this city. What I started seeing out the window 
was almost an ``Escape from New York'' feel.
    We don't want our big cities to die. We don't want to lose 
the culture that we have here. We in Wyoming love New York. We 
love Portland. We love Austin, Texas. We love these places. 
They're part of our culture and the fabric of our society.
    We have to address the fact that there are people who are 
willing to kill and stab and hurt other people. It is the 
responsibility of our law enforcement and our prosecutors to 
make sure that they can't hurt anyone else.
    With that, I want to tell you, there have been many times 
today that you've been called victims, and I don't see you as 
victims. I see you as very, very brave, brave people for being 
willing to come in here today and tell your story and make sure 
that everybody in this country knows your names and knows the 
names of your family members.
    With that, I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. Well said.
    The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Hunt, is recognized.
    Mr. Hunt. I cannot thank you all enough for being here. 
Thank you for sharing your lives with us. Thank you for sharing 
your stories. I greatly appreciate it. Being from Texas, it's 
an honor to be in your presence.
    In the 1990s, the mid-late 1990s, New York City was 
considered one of the safest cities in America. When I was at 
West Point from 2000-2004, I took that train down here many a 
day, had a pretty good time in this city, and I felt relatively 
safe when I did just that.
    While Alvin Bragg is a Manhattan District Attorney, his 
policies are not isolated to this borough. His pro-criminal 
policies are just an example of what Soros-funded district 
attorneys are implementing across our great Nation. Their 
ideology is responsible for the death, rape, and robbery of 
innocent people across America, and it is disproportionately 
impacting poor Black and Brown people.
    In Democrat-run cities across America, criminals are given 
deference and victims are left to fend for themselves, as you 
have articulated today. Why do these Soros-funded district 
attorneys put criminals first and victims last? It's what they 
believe. It's who they are.
    Our cities are crumbling around us. Criminals are running 
rampant. That's because district attorneys in San Francisco, 
Los Angeles, Chicago, and even my home city of Houston are 
advocating for pro-criminal policies. Alvin Bragg fits this 
profile, in my humble opinion.
    Let's talk about Alvin Bragg. He's a woke, progressive 
district attorney no different than any other progressive DA in 
our country right now. He was elected as the Manhattan DA in 
2021. His policies should not be surprising given that he was 
heavily supported by the Black Lives Matter PAC that was 
directly funded by George Soros. In fact, George Soros donated 
$1 million to that PAC less than a week after endorsing Bragg.
    Under the guise of helping people of color, he causes them 
more harm with his pro-criminal policies. Since Bragg has taken 
office, New York City residents are worried about increasing 
threats of violence.
    Do you know who doesn't have to worry about violence? Alvin 
Bragg. Bragg is surrounded by men with guns every single day. 
If you're a regular New Yorker coming home late at night on the 
Subway, you may be robbed, stabbed, raped, or even pushed in 
front of a train.
    Do you know what the fastest-growing demographic of gun 
ownership is in America? Black women. Black women. Why? Because 
they know they have to protect themselves in Democrat-run 
cities where criminals are allowed to roam free. That is a 
fact.
    Now, many of my colleagues on the left like to say that our 
justice system is two-tiered, that it favors the powerful and 
connected at the expense of poor people of color. In Bragg's 
office, there's a two-tiered justice system: It's criminals 
first and victims second, especially victims of color.
    We have an opportunity to vote out DAs just like this to 
make people that look like me and you, ma'am, safer. Let me 
take it one step further. Not just people that look like you 
and me. Every single American that lives in this country should 
feel safe to live in their own streets, end of discussion.
    I'm sitting here right now, and I'm hearing ``Trump, Trump, 
Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.'' At the end of the day, the 
people that are sitting here right now, they don't want to hear 
that. The only thing you want is safety.
    We are not grandstanding. I am not grandstanding. I can 
assure you; I would love to be holding my four-month-old boy 
right now. I am here to fight for you and to hear your stories 
and to allow you to tell your stories. For that, I am forever 
grateful.
    Ma'am, you aren't the only one that's actually left the 
plantation. It's happening all over the country.
    With that, I yield back. Thank you.
    Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields 
back.
    Mr. Kiley is recognized for five minutes.
    Mr. Kiley. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    In recent years, we have seen a movement to fundamentally 
change America's approach to law and order by defunding police 
departments and by putting so-called progressive prosecutors in 
district attorney's offices.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, you are the head of the New York Detectives' 
Endowment Association. What connection do you see between these 
two things, defund the police and progressive prosecutors?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, they're following the progressive line 
and not backing the police, not caring about the victims, and 
putting the criminal element back out onto the street to 
victimize the people of this city and State and country.
    Mr. Kiley. That's right. Both seek to eliminate or 
neutralize the capabilities of law enforcement, correct?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. It's been compromised already.
    Mr. Kiley. That's right. Thereby removing or reducing the 
consequence of criminal activity, correct?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
    Mr. Kiley. So, these policies have gained a major foothold 
in several cities, including the one that we're in right now, 
so we can assess what the impact has been. One way to assess 
that impact, of course, is looking at the effect on crime 
rates.
    Now, Mr. Holden, you're an elected city council member in 
New York, a member of the Democratic Party, and you testified 
today about failed progressive policies. So, just to be clear, 
when you say these are failed progressive policies, is that 
because they've caused crime to go up or to go down?
    Mr. Holden. Again, I'm a critic of my party's stance on 
crime. Everything's gone up. All their policies have led to an 
increase in crime.
    I think we saw it come to a head with the war on police 
that started after George Floyd. It went national. So, you saw 
this kind of crime wave go throughout the entire country.
    Mr. Kiley. That's right. In fact, if you look at 
yesterday's The New York Times, it reported that major crime in 
New York this year is 45 percent up from two years ago. This is 
from The New York Times.
    To your point, in Los Angeles, violent crime is 86 percent 
higher than national average. In San Francisco, overall crime 
is 111 percent higher than the national average.
    So, you can also then look to assess the impact of these 
policies about how people are responding to them.
    Would you say, Council Member Holden, that these failed 
progressive policies have caused more people to move to New 
York City or to move away from New York City?
    Mr. Holden. Certainly, away from New York City. I've never 
seen it this bad. Like I said, I grew up in the 1980s and 1990s 
in New York, and I saw horrific crime numbers, but now it's 
much, much worse because it's all over. The lawlessness, mayhem 
is all over.
    Mr. Kiley. In fact, the State of New York is second in the 
Nation in terms of one-way U-Haul rentals, people who are 
leaving.
    First place, of course, is California now, three years 
running. Los Angeles County, where George Gascon is the 
District Attorney, accounts for half the people leaving 
California. San Francisco, its population is declining faster 
than any major city in U.S. history.
    Now, a final way we can assess the impact of these policies 
is by the judgment of voters.
    Council Member Holden, would you say that Mayor Eric Adams 
made the issue of crime a major plank in his successful 
campaign for mayor?
    Mr. Holden. Well, that was and certainly is. He's not 
getting much support from his colleagues.
    Mr. Kiley. Correct.
    In Los Angeles, George Gascon has been subject to a vote of 
``no confidence'' by 36 different city councils within his 
jurisdiction.
    San Francisco voters went so far as to recall their 
progressive prosecutor from office overwhelmingly. Now, this is 
not a red city. The Trump-Pence ticket got 12 percent in San 
Francisco. Yet, voters overwhelmingly recalled that progressive 
prosecutor.
    So, the verdict is very clear: That these policies have led 
to crime skyrocketing, to people fleeing, and they're being 
rejected by voters.
    Yet, today, on the other side of the table, we by and large 
saw Members of Congress standing by those policies. For folks 
who are watching and, for that matter, the victims and the 
families who are here today, it must be disheartening.
    I'd say it's actually not as bleak as it sounds, that, in 
fact, the voices that we have heard today on the other side are 
not representative. For proof of that, just look what happened 
in D.C. after the city council there passed a reckless crime 
bill.
    In the House majority, we passed legislation to undo what 
the D.C. City Council had done. President Biden sided with us 
and signed that bill. Two out of three Democrat Senators sided 
with us and voted for that bill. Do you know how many Members 
of this Committee in the minority voted for that bill? Just 
one. Every single other Member voted to keep the reckless, pro-
criminal D.C. crime bill in place.
    So, I would say there's a lot more consensus in this 
country right now than today's hearing makes out and that the 
pendulum is swinging back toward supporting victims, supporting 
law enforcement, and supporting law and order.
    I look forward to working with people of good faith on both 
sites of the aisle to restore sanity to our criminal justice 
system.
    Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Moran is recognized for five minutes.
    Mr. Moran. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
    There's a greatness in America that has often been 
reflected over the history of our Nation by the greatness in 
some of our largest cities, like New York City, like 
Philadelphia, like a couple cities in my State--Austin and 
Houston, to name a few.
    Widespread movements in these cities to focus support for 
criminals instead of victims, to put progressive liberal 
politics ahead of the lives of all individuals regardless of 
political affiliation, to put sound bites ahead of sound 
policy, and to focus on social justice rather than actual 
justice have resulted in these Democrat-run cities, like New 
York City, being less safe.
    Of course, if you're talking about the safety and 
protection of criminals, that's different.
    Mr. DiGiacomo, let me see if I understand a couple of 
statistics correctly. I'll ask you a couple questions about 
this.
    When it relates to Alvin Bragg's Manhattan District 
Attorney's Office, not even going back before that but just 
looking at what he's done and looking at the process, in 
particular, let's start with somebody that's committed to 
criminal offense, a felony offense.
    Since 2019, if you compare 2019-2022 statistics, Alvin 
Bragg has declined to prosecute 35 percent less felonies than 
before. Even with those felonies that were charged, he's 
downgraded 52 percent of those felonies down to misdemeanors. 
Even when you get past that, of those felonies that actually 
make it to trial, Alvin Bragg's office is only successful in 
about half of those cases.
    So, when you start doing the mathematical calculations, if 
you're a criminal in this city that commits a felony, by the 
time he declines to prosecute and then downgrades a portion of 
what's left and then actually prosecutes those that are left 
and is unsuccessful in about half of those cases, probably only 
one in five at best, maybe one in six or one in seven, that 
commit a felony criminal offense in the city of New York City 
and in the Manhattan district in particular actually get 
convicted of that felony conviction.
    Is that true?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. That's counterproductive to the victims of 
crime. Correct.
    Mr. Moran. Once convicted, then, based on Alvin Bragg's 
``Day 1 Memo,'' he's encouraged less and less of those 
criminals to actually receive jail time. Isn't that true?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
    Mr. Moran. Now, how does that work with the morale of the 
NYPD?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, we're seeing it now, where we're 
having so many members of the NYPD leaving for other 
departments and detectives with years and years of experience 
and knowledge retiring. It's going to have a major impact on 
public safety here in New York City.
    Mr. Moran. Yes. Does it actually affect their ability to 
perform their duties?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Oh, absolutely. Again, if you're not 
prosecuting the crime, again, you're putting your life on the 
line every time you encounter a criminal or a criminal element, 
and just for this individual to be let out again, and all your 
work was done for no reason.
    Mr. Moran. I'd like to know what you're hearing, because 
you have your ear to the ground. What are you hearing from the 
men and women, the brave men and women, of the NYPD about their 
desire to continue to serve under these kinds of circumstances?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Policing here in New York City is the most 
difficult I've seen it in 40 years. It's almost impossible for 
these young cops, and old, and detectives to do their job 
effectively, because you don't have a clear understanding and 
working relationship with the District Attorney's Office.
    Mr. Moran. How does it affect their job and their ability 
to perform their job, that about half of those actually charged 
with felonies are out on--without any bail at all, awaiting 
trial, and only about half are in?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it breaks the morale, and it breaks 
your desire to serve and protect the people of this city.
    Mr. Moran. Do you see often times when these that have 
committed felonies that are awaiting trial are actually out 
there committing more felonies while they're in their pretrial 
state?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. That's the sad part about this. They're out 
again victimizing the people of the city. That's why the morale 
in the NYPD is so low right now.
    Mr. Moran. One of the things that you mentioned in your 
testimony, your written testimony, is about juvenile offenders.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Uh-huh.
    Mr. Moran. Talk about juvenile offenders under Alvin 
Bragg's District Attorney's Office, whether or not they're 
committing more crimes, whether or not they are incentivized to 
be part of gangs more than they were before.
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it used to be two percent of the 
crimes in New York City. It's now double digits. They're 
committing more crimes, carrying more firearms, because they 
know there are no consequences.
    Mr. Moran. Yes. These are the illegal firearms that we've 
been talking about, so much that--
    Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
    Mr. Moran. --Alvin Bragg's office has decided not to 
prosecute under existing law. Is that true?
    Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
    Mr. Moran. All right. Thank you for your time.
    I yield back.
    Chair Jordan. [Presiding.] I thank the gentleman.
    The gentleman yields back.
    Last, but certainly not least, my friend and colleague, the 
gentleman from New Jersey, is recognized.
    Mr. Van Drew. Hi. You guys got to be tired. I know after a 
while you almost have your eyes glaze over.
    I want to tell you--and I really mean this, and there's a 
lot of people in this room who mean it--we appreciate you. We 
appreciate your bravery, your strength, your love for the ones 
that you lost. We appreciate the professionals who are here who 
are willing to speak up against all odds.
    This is a big deal. Without folks like you, without good 
Americans like you, without individuals who have the courage 
and strength to stand up the way that you do, we're definitely 
doomed.
    I also want to promise you something else. I think the 
Chair would stick with me on this, and I think the Members here 
would stick with it. We're going to do something. We absolutely 
didn't do this for an exercise. We absolutely didn't do this 
for politics.
    So, I do want to say this to my friends on the other side. 
They threw out all kinds of stuff today--numbers that weren't 
real, a whole discussion of guns. You can have a lot of 
discussions on guns, but that wasn't what today was about. It 
wasn't a discussion about the guns. It was a discussion about 
Alvin Bragg.
    They talked about George Santos, anti-Semitism, Donald 
Trump, money going from the NRA to Members--which, by the way, 
I don't think it does, or else I'm surely the only one not 
getting it. I asked a few people. I don't think that's accurate 
either.
    That's an old political trick. Just so that you who are 
sitting here at this table know, you put the shiny object up 
here, and the shiny object is Donald Trump. So, hopefully--you 
hope that you and that we get so focused on his issues and get 
drawn into that.
    I don't give a damn about his issues right now. We'll deal 
with his issues--and they're important issues--at another time. 
I care about your issues. We care about your issues. They 
should care about your issues, not all this other crap they 
threw out there.
    I'm sorry, I'm a little rough around the edges sometimes, 
but I'm just telling you the truth. It's about time we hear the 
truth. That's what the truth is.
    The truth is this--I did write some things down, too--that 
crime rates in our biggest cities have risen to staggering 
levels. When you say the crime rate or what's really going on, 
you can't just talk about somebody who has actually been--was 
going to be prosecuted but was released. That's why these 
numbers look down, because we're releasing everybody. We're not 
putting them in jail.
    Bad people should go in jail. That's where they belong. 
They shouldn't be out so they can hurt your wives, children, 
mothers, fathers, and grandfathers. We want to be safe, and it 
doesn't matter what color, what race, what origin we are; we 
want to be safe in our homes.
    I think of what goes on in Chicago. It's not only New York. 
My God, how many little Black babies get shot every single week 
in that town? We can stop it. We could stop it if we had good 
prosecutors.
    Who's funding these progressive district attorneys? We 
should know that. Well, it's George Soros. With this increase 
in crime, you would think their DA would be actively trying to 
slow it down. He's not. He's taking money from George Soros.
    I don't know about money from the NRA, but I'll tell you, 
there's tons of money, tens of millions--in fact, he spent $170 
million--that's a lot of dough--$170 million in 2022 and $40 
million which was for local prosecutor elections. We never had 
money spent like that on prosecutor elections. It's wrong. 
Prosecutors should run because they want to defend the law, 
help their police, and, most of all, help you.
    God bless you, after being a victim and losing people you 
love, that you're here. I can't believe how strong you are.
    You know what begs the question too? Who's worse? Is it a 
prosecutor who doesn't enforce the law, or the criminal? Well, 
the prosecutor who doesn't enforce the law has a broad effect 
across the whole city and should know better and is taking his 
position, that position of such importance, to be the legal 
guardian, to be the person that's the caretaker of our America, 
of our cities, of this great city of New York, and what does he 
do? For politics, he doesn't care.
    The fact that he didn't sit down and shed some tears with 
you, it's unbelievable to me.
    The fact that he put you--and accused you of murder. Troy 
was right before. A man tries to kill you, you've got to stop 
him. It's your right. I guess he would've rather that you got 
killed. I don't understand it.
    It's in New York City. It's in Chicago. It's in San 
Francisco. This is the facts.
    Aww, shoot. I need a few more seconds. A few more?
    The bottom line is, the facts are that all the Soros-backed 
district attorneys are doing this everywhere. It leads to more 
crime.
    I'm going to say this--I'm going to finish up.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman--
    Mr. Van Drew. I think the answer is--I think he should 
resign. I swear to God, he should resign, and he should be 
disbarred.
    Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
    I want to--this concludes our hearing today.
    I want to thank our witnesses. I've been in Congress a 
while, not quite as long as Mr. Nadler, but I've been there a 
while, and I don't know if I've ever been a part of a hearing 
with more powerful witnesses telling your stories. So, thank 
you for your courage. Thank you for your patience, for being 
here. God bless you all.
    That concludes--without objection, all members will have 
five legislative days to submit additional written questions 
for the witnesses or additional materials for the record.
    Chair Jordan. Now, without objection, the hearing is 
adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:58 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]

    All items submitted for the record by Members of the 
Committee on the Judiciary can be found at https://
docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=115663.