[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                          [H.A.S.C. No. 118-2]

                         THE PRESSING THREAT OF

                      THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY

                        TO U.S. NATIONAL DEFENSE

                               __________

                      COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              HEARING HELD

                            FEBRUARY 7, 2023


                                     
                 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
                 
                 
                               __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
                    
51-704                    WASHINGTON : 2023                  

                                     
                      COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
                    One Hundred Eighteenth Congress

                     MIKE ROGERS, Alabama, Chairman

JOE WILSON, South Carolina           ADAM SMITH, Washington
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio              JOE COURTNEY, Connecticut
DOUG LAMBORN, Colorado               JOHN GARAMENDI, California
ROBERT J. WITTMAN, Virginia, Vice    DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey
    Chair                            RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona
AUSTIN SCOTT, Georgia                SETH MOULTON, Massachusetts
SAM GRAVES, Missouri                 SALUD O. CARBAJAL, California
ELISE M. STEFANIK, New York          RO KHANNA, California
SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee          WILLIAM R. KEATING, Massachusetts
TRENT KELLY, Mississippi             ANDY KIM, New Jersey
MIKE GALLAGHER, Wisconsin            CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
MATT GAETZ, Florida                  JASON CROW, Colorado
DON BACON, Nebraska                  ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan
JIM BANKS, Indiana                   MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey
JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida               JARED F. GOLDEN, Maine
MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana              SARA JACOBS, California
LISA C. McCLAIN, Michigan            MARILYN STRICKLAND, Washington
RONNY JACKSON, Texas                 PATRICK RYAN, New York
PAT FALLON, Texas                    JEFF JACKSON, North Carolina
CARLOS A. GIMENEZ, Florida           GABE VASQUEZ, New Mexico
NANCY MACE, South Carolina           CHRISTOPHER R. DELUZIO, 
BRAD FINSTAD, Minnesota                  Pennsylvania
DALE W. STRONG, Alabama              JILL N. TOKUDA, Hawaii
MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas               DONALD G. DAVIS, North Carolina
JENNIFER A. KIGGANS, Virginia        TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama
NICK LaLOTA, New York                STEVEN HORSFORD, Nevada
JAMES C. MOYLAN, Guam                JIMMY PANETTA, California
MARK ALFORD, Missouri                Vacancy
CORY MILLS, Florida
RICHARD McCORMICK, Georgia

                      Chris Vieson, Staff Director
               Mark Morehouse, Professional Staff Member
                        Spencer Johnson, Counsel
                    Brooke Alred, Research Assistant

                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

              STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS

Rogers, Hon. Mike, a Representative from Alabama, Chairman, 
  Committee on Armed Services....................................     1
Smith, Hon. Adam, a Representative from Washington, Ranking 
  Member, Committee on Armed Services............................     2

                               WITNESSES

Harris, ADM Harry B., Jr., USN (Ret.), Former Commander, U.S. 
  Indo-Pacific Command...........................................     4
Sisson, Dr. Melanie W., Foreign Policy Fellow, Brookings 
  Institution Strobe Talbott Center for Security, Strategy, and 
  Technology.....................................................     6

                                APPENDIX

Prepared Statements:

    Harris, ADM Harry B., Jr.....................................    71
    Sisson, Dr. Melanie W........................................    84

Documents Submitted for the Record:

    Trade Associations Letter....................................    97

Witness Responses to Questions Asked During the Hearing:

    Ms. Tokuda...................................................   101

Questions Submitted by Members Post Hearing:

    Mr. Bergman..................................................   106
    Mr. Gallagher................................................   105


 
           
  THE PRESSING THREAT OF THE CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY TO U.S. NATIONAL 
                                DEFENSE

                              ----------                              

                          House of Representatives,
                               Committee on Armed Services,
                         Washington, DC, Tuesday, February 7, 2023.
    The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in room 
2118, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Mike Rogers (chairman 
of the committee) presiding.

 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE ROGERS, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM 
         ALABAMA, CHAIRMAN, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

    The Chairman. Committee will come to order. Our first 
hearing this Congress is on the threats posed by the Chinese 
Communist Party and what our military needs to do to stay ahead 
of them. China is the most challenging national security threat 
America has faced in 30 years. If we fail to acknowledge that 
and take immediate action to deter it, the next 30 years could 
be devastating for our Nation.
    Under President Xi, the Chinese Communist Party has nearly 
tripled its defense spending in the last decade alone. The PLA 
[People's Liberation Army] has gone from an obsolete force 
barely capable of defending its borders to a modern fighting 
force capable of winning regional conflicts. The CCP [Chinese 
Communist Party] now controls the largest army and navy in the 
world with a goal of having them fully integrated and 
modernized by 2027. The CCP is rapidly expanding its nuclear 
capability. They have doubled their number of warheads in 2 
years. We estimated it would take them a decade to do that. 
We've also were just informed by the DOD [Department of 
Defense] and the CCP now has more ICBM [intercontinental 
ballistic missile] launchers than the United States.
    The CCP is starting to outpace us on new battlefields, as 
well. They have leapfrogged us on hypersonic technology. They 
are fielding what we are still developing. They are making 
advances in AI [artificial intelligence] and quantum computing 
that we struggle to keep pace with. Finally, their rapid 
advances in space were one of the primary motivations for us 
establishing a Space Force.
    The CCP is not building these new and advanced military 
capabilities for self defense. In recent years, the CCP has 
used its military to push out its borders, to threaten our 
allies in the region, and to gain footholds on new continents. 
In violation of international law, the CCP has built new and 
commandeered existing islands in the South China Sea where it 
has deployed stealth fighters, bombers, and missiles. It 
continues to intimidate and coerce Taiwan, most recently by 
surrounding the island with naval forces and launching endless 
fighter sorties across its center line. In recent years, the 
CCP has also established a space tracking facility in South 
America to monitor U.S. satellites, as well as an overseas 
naval base miles from our own on the strategically vital Horn 
of Africa.
    These are just a few destabilizing actions taken by the 
CCP. They speak nothing of the CCP's Belt and Road debt-trap 
diplomacy, its illegal harvesting of personal data and 
intellectual property, its ongoing human rights abuses, and its 
advanced espionage efforts, the latter of which came into full 
focus for all Americans last week when the Biden administration 
allowed a CCP spy balloon to traverse some of our Nation's most 
sensitive military sites. Make no mistake, that balloon was 
intentionally launched as a calculated show of force.
    We have to stop being naive about the threat we face from 
China. We no longer have the luxury of time. We need to act now 
to get ahead of this threat. We need to make the right 
investments in the right capabilities to ensure our military 
can effectively deter and, if necessary, defeat the threat. 
That will be the focus of this committee this Congress.
    I look forward to working with all of you on this effort, 
and, with that, I yield to my friend, the ranking member, Mr. 
Smith.

STATEMENT OF HON. ADAM SMITH, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM WASHINGTON, 
          RANKING MEMBER, COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES

    Mr. Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate that. And 
thank you for making this the first hearing of this session. It 
is very appropriate, as the last two National Security 
Strategies and as just about everyone acknowledges now, China 
is the greatest threat that we face to our national security 
objectives and the biggest problem that we face as a country, 
and we need to figure out how to deal with that. And I think 
you outlined the threat quite well. I will not repeat that, 
except to say that, without question, in the last decade, China 
has decided to try to impose its will on the world and move us 
in a direction that takes us away from the rules-based 
international system that the United States and so many other 
nations are trying to impose.
    We must, without question, meet that threat, and part of 
meeting that threat is also, without question, to deter it 
militarily, to make sure, basically, that China does not feel 
that they can succeed by trying to move forward their 
objectives through the use of their military. Certainly in 
Taiwan, but Taiwan is not the only place that China claims at 
the moment that we have to worry about whether or not they 
would use their military to achieve those objectives. We need 
to build up our military, look very carefully at what China is 
doing, and make sure the decisions we're making deter that 
threat. In fact, that is one of the challenges that I know the 
chairman and I see the same way. We have to have a modernized 
military; cliche, but we can't be fighting the last war. A 
number of lessons have been learned by the conflict in Ukraine 
and elsewhere. We need to apply those lessons and make sure 
that our military is modernized to meet the threats that we 
face today.
    And part of that also, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention 
success for the U.S., Ukraine, and the coalition in Ukraine is 
crucial to that deterrence message against China. President Xi 
is absolutely watching what goes on there; and if President 
Putin is able to achieve his aims lawlessly and through the use 
of the military, that will only further embolden President Xi 
in his objectives in China.
    We also have to be aware that this is not only and not even 
primarily a military struggle. China is trying to expand its 
influences, as the chairman alluded to, in a number of 
different ways. We need to use diplomacy and alliances to meet 
this threat. The U.S. will not be able to deter China on its 
own. We need our allies, we need our partners across the globe, 
and the Biden administration very much recognizes that and has 
done an outstanding job of building up those partnerships and 
alliances in a number of areas. The AUKUS agreement between 
Australia, Great Britain, and the U.S. has helped empower our 
partners there. We have developed the Quad with Japan, 
Australia, India, and the U.S., also to build up our strengths 
as partners and alliances. And, most recently, the Philippines 
has allowed us to enhance our military presence in partnership 
with them and their country, largely because they see the 
threat from China. They don't want that bully right above them 
to be able to push them around. They're looking for 
partnerships and alliances, as we move forward, to be able to 
meet that.
    It is also really important to understand what our 
objective here is. Our objective is to have a world where China 
and the U.S. can coexist peacefully. I think it is a dangerous 
mistake if we think we are somehow going to defeat China, 
whatever that might mean. They are the second-largest economy 
in the world. They are a large and powerful nation. We need to 
guide them down a better path. And I want to make this 
statement 100 percent clear: War with China is not inevitable. 
It is not even likely. It is something we must all work to 
avoid, not to treat as an inevitability. It doesn't have to be 
that way. Let us use our skills, our diplomacy, and our ability 
to deter to avoid it.
    And the last thing I want to say is, as we look at this 
problem, we need to be careful to separate the Chinese 
government from the Chinese people and certainly from the Asian 
people. In the last couple of years, there has been a massive 
increase in anti-Asian bigotry and hate in this country. The 
Asian-American population in the U.S. is an incredibly vital 
part of our country and also really rather important to the 
fight to set a different vision for the world than the one 
China lays out. Let's take on China, but let's remember to 
respect the Asian-American people who are so crucial to what we 
are doing here in this country.
    With that, I look forward to the testimony. I want to 
welcome our witnesses, Dr. Sisson and Admiral Harris. Great to 
see you both back. Look forward to your testimony. Thank you, 
Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Thank you. Now I'd like to take a minute to 
introduce our panel. First, a fellow who has had my admiration 
for many years is Admiral Harry Harris, former Commander of the 
U.S. Pacific Command, now INDOPACOM [U.S. Indo-Pacific 
Command], under Presidents Obama and Trump, as well as former 
U.S. Ambassador to South Korea. And Dr. Melanie Sisson is a 
fellow with the Brookings Institute Talbott Center for 
Security, Strategy, and Technology. We had Ambassador O'Brien 
slated to appear, but, unfortunately, he had an emergent 
personal matter that he could not be with us today.
    So Admiral Harris, Dr. Sisson, we look forward to your 
testimony; and, Admiral Harris, we'll start with you.

   STATEMENT OF ADM HARRY B. HARRIS, JR., USN (RET.), FORMER 
              COMMANDER, U.S. INDO-PACIFIC COMMAND

    Admiral Harris. Thank you, Chairman Rogers, and Ranking 
Member Smith, and distinguished members. I am honored to appear 
again before this committee, this time alongside the esteemed 
Dr. Melanie Sisson.
    That your first meeting of the 118th Congress addresses the 
threat that the United States faces from the People's Republic 
of China, or PRC, sends a powerful signal to the region. I am 
grateful for Congress's passing of the FY23 [fiscal year 2023] 
National Defense Authorization Act, including the embedded 
Taiwan Enhanced Resilience Act which increases military aid and 
security cooperation to that embattled island. There are very 
few bipartisan issues in Washington these days, but our 
national concern about the PRC is one of them.
    The U.S. has enduring national interest in the Indo-
Pacific, a region at a precarious crossroad where tangible 
opportunity meets significant challenge. We find ourselves 
again in peer competition with adversaries who are developing 
and deploying cutting-edge weaponry and information disorder to 
undermine our democracy and defeat us.
    In 2018, I talked about our challenges: a rogue North 
Korea, a revisionist PRC, and a revanchist Russia. Over the 
past 5 years, the situation has worsened, in my opinion, in 
almost every geostrategic measure, a security environment more 
complex and more volatile and more dangerous than any that I've 
seen. We are in what I call the decisive decade.
    Last fall, the current administration finally released its 
National Security Strategy. Though I would use the term 
adversary rather than competitor, the strategy recognizes that 
the PRC is the only competitor with both the intent and, 
increasingly, the capability to reshape the international 
order.
    Now, while the U.S. has partnered well with China on 
several important fronts, Washington and Beijing fundamentally 
disagree on how to approach the international order. The PRC 
does not keep its word, from its treaty with the British on 
Hong Kong, to its human rights abuses against the Uyghurs and 
others, to its attempts at commercial espionage, and its quest 
to intimidate, isolate, and ultimately dominate Taiwan.
    The PRC's aggression in the South China Sea continues 
unabated, despite the 2016 Permanent Court of Arbitration's 
ruling that invalidated China's ridiculous nine-dash line claim 
and unprecedented land reclamations. Beijing's actions are 
coordinated, methodical, and strategic, using its military and 
economic power to erode the free and open international seas.
    Last week's spy balloon drama playing out on the doorstep 
to the Secretary of State's planned visit to Beijing typifies 
PRC bad behavior and disregard for international norms. That 
Beijing would claim that the incursion over sovereign American 
airspace was innocuous and unintended beggars the imagination.
    China's considerable military buildup could soon challenge 
the U.S. across almost every domain. Now, while some might say 
that PRC is already there, I am not one of them, yet. However, 
the PRC is making significant advances in missile systems, 
including hypersonics, fifth-generation fighters, a blue-water 
navy, and the next wave of technologies, including artificial 
intelligence and advanced space and cyber. Geopolitically, 
Beijing seeks to supplant the United States as a security 
partner of choice for countries not only in the Indo-Pacific 
but globally.
    The U.S. makes it clear that we reject foreign policy based 
on leverage and dominance. We encourage every country to work 
in its own interest to protect its own sovereignty, and we must 
work in our own enlightened self-interest to develop our own 
reliable sources of rare earths, pharmaceuticals, and chemicals 
essential for weaponeering, independent of the PRC. Former 
Deputy National Security Advisor [for Strategy] Nadia Schadlow 
wrote last year that the PRC is ``the sole source or a primary 
source supplier for a number of critical energetics 
materials.'' And by energetics, she is referring to those 
materials that are used for explosives and propellants, from 
bullets, to artillery, to missiles.
    We find ourselves sailing into rocks and shoals, to use a 
nautical analogy; we must invest and innovate to right the 
errant course that we are on. Otherwise, the joint force will 
struggle to compete with the People's Liberation Army on future 
battlefields.
    Now, I note that the current administration's fundamental 
understanding of the PRC is consistent with its predecessor, as 
my esteemed colleague knows well. The Secretary of State 
testified that the previous administration's tougher approach 
is right, that what is happening in Xinjiang is genocide and 
the democracy is being trampled in Hong Kong. The Secretary of 
Defense testified that he is focused on the threat posed by the 
PRC, and he promised strong support for Taiwan.
    Look, Taiwan is democratic, an idea factory, and a global 
force for good. Just last week, the Cato Institute called 
Taiwan the freest country in East Asia, ahead of Japan, ahead 
of South Korea. I've called for ending the almost 44-year U.S. 
policy of strategic ambiguity in favor of strategic clarity. I 
also believe that we should ink a bilateral free trade 
agreement with Taipei as soon as possible. The new Indo-Pacific 
strategy calls for an environment whereby Taiwan's future is 
determined peacefully by its own people. What a concept. My 
successor at Indo-Pacific Command testified before Congress in 
2021 that the PRC could invade Taiwan in 6 years. That is 2027. 
We ignore Admiral Davidson's warning at our peril.
    The PRC's intent is crystal clear. Maya Angelou once said 
that when someone shows you who they are, believe them the 
first time. Well, Xi Jinping has showed us his intent regarding 
Taiwan time and time again, and shame on us if we ignore him. 
We must not allow the PRC to dictate America's Taiwan policy. 
Indeed, I am worried about the trajectory of the PRC's body 
politic. Former Australian Prime Minister Kevin Rudd recently 
wrote that last October's 20th party congress ``is an era-
defining event, cementing Xi Jinping as China's paramount 
leader, solidifying the country's turn to the state and away 
from the market and officially underscoring the primacy of 
Marxism-Leninism.'' In other words, Deng Xiaoping is dead in 
more ways than one.
    Mr. Chairman, while challenges to our interests in the 
Indo-Pacific, especially from the PRC, are real, I believe that 
America's resolve is powerful and steadfast. I thank you and 
this committee and the whole Congress for your enduring support 
to INDOPACOM, to our Armed Forces, and our diplomatic corps. 
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Admiral Harris can be found in 
the Appendix on page 71.]
    The Chairman. Thank you, Admiral. And, Dr. Sisson, you are 
recognized.

  STATEMENT OF DR. MELANIE W. SISSON, FOREIGN POLICY FELLOW, 
   BROOKINGS INSTITUTION STROBE TALBOTT CENTER FOR SECURITY, 
                    STRATEGY, AND TECHNOLOGY

    Dr. Sisson. Chairman Rogers, Ranking Member Smith, and 
members of the committee, thank you for inviting me here today 
to support your efforts to assess and to respond to the threat 
of the Chinese Communist Party to U.S. national defense.
    Under the rule of the CCP, the People's Republic of China 
is seeking to expand its influence culturally, economically, 
politically, and militarily. It has used illicit and illegal 
means to advantage its economy. It has been obstructionist in 
multilateral organizations and on critical transnational 
issues, such as climate and health. And it has not only 
improved the capabilities of its armed forces, the People's 
Liberation Army, but also has used those forces to advance 
discredited territorial and resource claims and to threaten and 
intimidate its neighbors.
    Advances in the capabilities of the PLA, together with the 
CCP's longstanding interest in unification with the 
democratically self-governing island of Taiwan, has energized 
concern about China's near-term intentions toward the island 
and about the role of the United States in cross-strait 
relations. Since 1979, the United States has adopted a 
constellation of official positions, together known as the One-
China Policy, that allow us to acknowledge but not to accept 
China's perspective that there is one China and that Taiwan is 
part of China.
    Under the One-China Policy, the United States has developed 
robust unofficial relations with the government and the people 
of Taiwan consistent with our interest in preserving peace and 
stability in the Taiwan Strait. U.S. policy is guided by an 
interest in ensuring cross-strait disputes are resolved 
peacefully and in a manner that reflects the will of Taiwan's 
people. This has required the United States to deter Taiwan 
from declaring independence and also to deter the CCP from 
attempting unification by force.
    The 40-year success of this strategy of dual deterrence 
rests upon the unwillingness of the United States to provide 
either an unconditional commitment to Taipei that it will come 
to its defense militarily or an unconditional commitment to 
Beijing that we will not.
    The U.S. national security interest in the status of Taiwan 
remains that the CCP and the people of Taiwan resolve the 
island's political status peacefully. Dual deterrence therefore 
remains U.S. strategy, reinforced by U.S. declaratory policy, 
which is to oppose unilateral changes to the status quo by 
either side.
    The modernization of the PLA has changed the regional 
military balance and significantly enough that the United 
States no longer can be confident that we would decisively 
defeat every type of PLA use of force in the Taiwan Strait. 
This fact, however, does not necessitate that the U.S. abandon 
the strategy of dual deterrence, and it doesn't mean that the 
United States should seek to reconstitute its prior degree of 
dominance.
    Posturing the U.S. military to convince the CCP that the 
PLA could not succeed in any and every contingency over Taiwan 
is infeasible in the near term and likely beyond. The PLA's 
advances are considerable and ongoing. Geography works in its 
favor, and history demonstrates that it is far easier to arrive 
at an overconfident assessment of relative capability than it 
is to arrive at an accurate one.
    Attempting to demonstrate superiority for all contingencies 
would require a commitment of forces that would inhibit the 
United States from behaving like the global power that it is 
with global interests to which its military must also attend. 
This posture, moreover, is not necessary for dual deterrence to 
extend its 40-year record of success. We can instead encourage 
the government of Taiwan to adopt a defense concept that forces 
the PLA into suboptimal strategies and increases the battle 
damage Beijing would have to anticipate and accept.
    The CCP should also be reminded that, in addition to 
retaining the option on direct U.S. military engagement, U.S. 
military superiority in the Persian Gulf and Indian Ocean 
allows us to threaten the maritime shipping upon which China 
depends for access to energy, global markets, and supply 
chains. The inevitable damage a use of force would cause to the 
global economy and the imposition of sanctions and restricted 
access to critical inputs needed to sustain China's economic 
development and the quality of life of its people, moreover, 
would certainly compound China's losses.
    The CCP should have no illusion, however, that it can 
inflict a first strike on the United States that prevents us 
from joining in the defense of Taiwan. Militarily, this will 
require the armed services to develop concepts of operation 
that maximize the effects of dispersal, mobility, and localized 
decision making, and to make investments in the portable and 
expendable assets that those concepts require: uncrewed systems 
that launch sensors and anti-ship missiles, for example, 
without the need for runways that are difficult to defend. DOD 
must also prioritize improving the resilience of its command, 
control, and communication systems against disabling electronic 
and cyber attacks.
    These and related measures will position the United States 
not only to implement its strategy of dual deterrence in the 
Taiwan Strait but also will prepare us to detect and respond to 
Chinese incrementalism throughout the Western Pacific and 
beyond. Plentiful surveillance, resilient command and control, 
and small situationally aware mobile deployments are necessary 
for the Armed Forces to minimize opportunities for the PLA to 
engage in unlawful and coercive actions and to deny it gains 
when it does.
    The U.S.-China contest is definitionally strategic. Its 
outcome will be determined by the respective abilities of the 
CCP and the government of the United States to marshal all 
instruments of national power and to deploy them in a 
comprehensive, well-executed grand strategy. It is therefore 
essential that Congress ensures DOD is equipped in concept and 
in capability to deter PLA aggression regionally and also to 
shape and constrain the geopolitical conditions within which 
the CCP pursues its objectives globally.
    I look forward to discussing these important issues with 
you.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Sisson can be found in the 
Appendix on page 84.]
    The Chairman. Thank you, Dr. Sisson. One of the many things 
I liked about Chairman Smith, when he served as Chairman Smith, 
was his rigorous enforcement of the 5-minute rule. I think that 
that is the only way we can show respect for our colleagues. So 
understand I will be following the mold set by Adam Smith when 
I tell you your time is up. But know this: it is going to apply 
to me and the ranking member, as well. We are going to put 
ourselves on a 5-minute clock.
    With that, I recognize myself for a couple of questions. 
Recently, we've heard from military leaders that we could have 
a U.S. conflict with China in the near future. My question is 
what do we need to be doing to prepare for that, assuming that 
assessment is correct, that we could have a near-term conflict? 
Admiral, what do you think?
    Admiral Harris. Thanks, sir, for the question. My 
colleagues in uniform have given a couple of different 
timelines. Admiral Davidson, the Davidson window is 2027. I 
talked about it in my remarks. General Minihan just last week 
said 2025. I think the most important thing is less the 
specific date than the fact that our military is committed to 
defending the United States whenever an attack happens, 
whenever they are called upon. And I think that Admiral 
Aquilino, who is the current INDOPACOM commander, is doing just 
that. You know, he has developed this concept called see, 
blind, and kill. You know, see the enemy, blind the enemy, and 
then kill the enemy, and he is working on that with expeditious 
need because his requirement is really what we've said all 
along about the Indo-Pacific, and I am sure the other combatant 
commanders would say the same thing. Their job is to defend and 
be ready to fight tonight, not in 2025 or 2027 or 2030 or 
whenever those hypothetical dates are thrown out there.
    The Chairman. Great. Dr. Sisson.
    Dr. Sisson. Thank you. Representative, first, I would say I 
agree with Admiral Harris in terms of the responsibility of the 
services to be prepared always for those sorts of unfortunate 
events. What I would say in terms of among the most important 
things that can be done now is to reinforce our deterrent 
posture. I think it is harmful for us to have repeated 
incidents of high-level Department officials making different 
estimations. It suggests that we don't have a coherent view of 
what is happening over the strait, and that certainly is not 
helpful to our effort to deter the CCP.
    The Chairman. Great. I am curious, what do you all think we 
could do to improve Taiwan's defenses that could help deter 
China in any kind of aggressive behavior? Admiral Harris.
    Admiral Harris. Sure. So I was in Taiwan last week meeting 
with senior leadership there. I was there for 5 days. I got a 
chance to travel down to Kaohsiong, Taiwan, to look at the 
progress they are making on their Indigenous Defense Submarine, 
or IDS. I believe, Mr. Chairman, that there is a lot that we 
are doing, but there is a lot more that we could do.
    The Chairman. For example?
    Admiral Harris. For example, we could sign a free trade 
agreement with Taiwan. That is important not only on the 
economic side but also because of the example that that sets 
for other countries who might be considering doing trade deals 
with Taiwan, opening up to Taiwan, but they are waiting for 
cover from a country like the United States. So that is one 
thing we could do.
    We could help them more, I believe, in training. You know, 
as they go from a 4-month draft, a 4-month conscripted force, 
to a 1-year conscripted force starting in 2024, they are going 
to need some help, one, in training them and, two, how to train 
them because this is a new thing for them. But I do believe, 
based on my time in Taiwan last week, that I've come away with 
a belief that Taiwan is both resilient and understanding of the 
need for their self-defense, and this is driven a little bit by 
the Chinese move on Hong Kong but most currently by Russia's 
move on Ukraine.
    The Chairman. Dr. Sisson, is there anything in particular 
you'd like to see us do to help Taiwan be more able to deter 
any aggressive behavior from China?
    Dr. Sisson. I think it is absolutely the case that there 
can be changes made to enhance the porcupine position in the 
defense concept. You know, those are things like investments in 
short-range anti-air and anti-ship defenses, naval mines, and 
so forth. I am sure I don't need to tell the committee those 
specifics.
    The admiral raises the other good point that it is 
essential, and one of the lessons that we've absolutely learned 
from Ukraine, that the people of Taiwan will need to be 
prepared to be resilient in the event of a blockade for 
example, and ready to engage in any prolonged and intensive 
resistance to invasion and occupation. That preparation, 
visible preparation, can serve as a deterrent.
    The Chairman. Great. Thank you very much. The Chair now 
recognizes the ranking member.
    Mr. Smith. Thank you. Building off of the chairman's 
comments, I think, you know, setting a specific date on it 
isn't really the point. At this point, I think China could do 
it right now. They have the capability. They are jockeying for 
position, trying to figure out how to maximize their chances 
for success. We obviously need to be prepared to deter that. I 
do worry about the inevitability comments because these words 
get played up in China, and then China is like, well, the U.S. 
is coming for us, so we may as well go for them. I think we 
need to be careful about that particular language.
    But building off of what can be done to deter, Dr. Sisson, 
you mentioned the need to disperse and make our forces more 
mobile, and that has been a big piece of analysis of what we 
are doing there. I have seen the analysis. What is your 
assessment, both of your assessments about how we are doing on 
making us less of a target initially in that way, and what do 
you think we need to do to get there more quickly?
    Dr. Sisson. I think that we are making good progress. Where 
I look for those advances starts with the concepts, the 
concepts of operations, what it is the services understand that 
it is they need to be doing, followed then by the investments 
in the capabilities they need to implement and execute on those 
plans.
    So I think the Marine Corps is a good example of the kinds 
of changes that we are seeing that are moving in the right 
direction. And I think that that is having a positive effect, 
and we are starting to see that move through the Department a 
little bit more broadly. We need to be thinking about 
resilience. We need to be thinking about how we are working 
with AI-enabled capabilities and autonomy, including in 
surveillance and getting information right up to what we call 
the tactical edge. And I see the Department working in those 
directions very much.
    Mr. Smith. Thank you. Admiral.
    Admiral Harris. Thanks, sir. I think that, among other 
things, we need to understand more fully the PRC--the Chinese 
surveillance capabilities and systems. Shooting down that drone 
and then recovering the parts over the Atlantic I think is very 
helpful in that regard. General VanHerck, the NORAD/NORTHCOM 
[North American Aerospace Defense Command/U.S. Northern 
Command] commander, spoke yesterday about what he called a 
domain gap in his ability to understand China's balloons that 
they've sent forward across the United States over the past 
several years. So that ought to concern all of us, so I think 
getting these parts of this balloon together and understanding 
their surveillance will help.
    It is hard to disperse a fixed airfield, and I am speaking 
a little parochially since I am from the Navy. And that is why 
development of aircraft carriers is so important. I think that 
Dr. Sisson is spot-on when she talks about Dave Berger's moves 
to bring the U.S. Marine Corps into the 21st century. I support 
what he is doing, and I am excited by where he is going with 
it.
    So those are some of the things that we could be doing and 
we are doing to address the threat from the PRC.
    Mr. Smith. And what about our partners in the region? 
Japan, in particular, has really stepped up. I think they now 
recognize the threat from China. Australia, to some extent, as 
well. What role do you see our partners in the region playing 
in deterring China's aggression towards Taiwan and, frankly, 
aggression towards many of the other neighbors, as the chairman 
outlined?
    Admiral Harris. Well, I'll start. I think that America's 
greatest asymmetric capability, our greatest asymmetric 
strength, is our alliance--alliances and partnerships, our 
whole network across the globe. Japan, as you mentioned, sir, 
they have clearly stepped up to the plate. Before the late Abe 
Shinzo was assassinated, you know, he was leading that, and I 
am happy and pleased to see that Foreign Minister Kishida Fumio 
has followed in his footsteps. They recognize that they are in 
a precarious position vis-a-vis China.
    I think South Korea is an important ally. They realize it, 
as well, as does Australia, especially Australia. I mean, it 
was Peter Dutton, the former Minister of Defense down there, 
who said of course we will defend Taiwan with the United 
States. That is a powerful statement for a country to make when 
you are talking about armed conflict with the PRC over Taiwan. 
He made that comment about 2 years ago.
    So, I think that we cannot do it alone. We rely heavily on 
our allies, and that is our greatest asymmetric strength.
    Mr. Smith. Thank you. I am about out of time, so I will 
yield back. Thank you.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
South Carolina, Mr. Wilson.
    Mr. Wilson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Dr. Sisson and 
Admiral, thank you very much for being here. My appreciation of 
the people of China is lifelong. My father served in the Flying 
Tigers, the 14th Air Force, in Chengdu, Xi'an, and Kunming to 
liberate the people of China. I inherited his appreciation of 
the people of China with several meaningful visits by me and my 
family from Beijing to Shanghai to Hong Kong. Sadly, my hopes 
for a mutually beneficial relationship were misplaced, 
culminating with the spy balloon over my home community this 
weekend threatening Fort Jackson and the Savannah River nuclear 
laboratory. The Biden administration is blaming the military 
for the delay. To me this is duplicity. The responsibility of 
not acting sooner is the sole responsibility of President 
Biden.
    With that in mind, Congress, Admiral, has created the 
Pacific Defense Initiative in the FY21 [fiscal year 2021] 
National Defense Authorization Act, to modernize and enhance 
our presence, logistics, and maintenance capabilities, exercise 
program infrastructure and security cooperation in the region. 
What is your view on the impact of the Pacific Deterrence 
Initiative? What value do you believe we have in this 
initiative over time? We need to be building peace through 
strength.
    Admiral Harris. Yes, a great question, sir. I support it 
completely, the Pacific Defense Initiative. I wasn't good 
enough when I was the PACOM [U.S. Indo-Pacific Command] 
commander to convince all of you to buy into that. Admiral 
Davidson is far more eloquent than I am, and he was able to 
convince the right folks that that is an important thing.
    INDOPACOM needs that initiative in order to have the funds 
to do the things that it needs to do in the far reaches of the 
Pacific, not only in terms of our allies like the Philippines, 
but especially part of America in Guam, and ballistic missile 
defense, which can now be funded to a better rate because of 
the Pacific Defense--Deterrence Initiative.
    Mr. Wilson. And I am really grateful that you mentioned 
INDOPACOM. It was President Trump that added ``INDO'' to show 
the appreciation and importance of India and what opportunities 
we have to be working with that country and how their own 
capabilities, they do not need to be reliant on Russian 
military equipment. We have an extraordinary country of 1.4 
billion people who can make their own.
    With that in mind, it is bipartisan that there is an 
understanding we are in a worldwide competition of democracies 
with rule of law opposed by autocracies with rule of gun. 
Sadly, we see war criminal Putin invade Ukraine being supported 
by the Chinese Communist Party, as they are also threatening 
Taiwan, and then as Iran threatens Israel. With that in mind, 
it is so important that Ukraine achieve victory to reduce the 
potential of a wider war.
    With that in mind, Dr. Sisson, the combination of China's 
desire to expand its influence, the U.S. to maintain its own 
influence, Taiwan's international aspiration roles in the 
global economy make the island status an especially contentious 
issue threatening Korea, Japan, all the way to Australia. It is 
bipartisan that the United States understands how important it 
is to maintain a constructive role to prevent a cross-border 
conflict. What can be further done to avoid a conflict?
    Dr. Sisson. Representative, that is exactly right and well 
put. The most important thing I think that we can do 
conceptually right now is to remember that Taiwan is not the 
crucible for great power competition, that China's ambitions 
are strategic and they are global, as are ours, and the best 
thing that we can do is treat it as such.
    With regards to Taiwan specifically, I believe we should 
maintain our policy of dual deterrence and we should do so in a 
manner that projects the place that we are in, which is a place 
where we should feel confident that we can effectively deter 
and calm and cohesive with all of our allies and partners in 
the practice of implementing that strategy.
    Mr. Wilson. Indeed. I am looking with the leadership, Adam 
Smith, others, bipartisan, working together. And encouraging 
the administration, there has been a delay in providing proper 
defensive munitions to the people of Taiwan, and this needs to 
be bipartisan to indeed create an Asian porcupine so that we 
can have peace through strength.
    Thank you. And I yield back.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
Connecticut, Mr. Courtney.
    Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to 
both witnesses for your thoughtful testimony today. Admiral 
Harris, on September 15th, 2021, President Biden announced the 
new AUKUS security agreement, Australia, U.S., and U.K. [United 
Kingdom], which seems perfectly aligned with the comments you 
just made a moment ago, which are on page 5 of your testimony, 
that, ``America's single asymmetric strength is our network of 
security alliances and partnerships.'' David Ignatius, the 
veteran journalist at Washington Post described AUKUS as ``the 
most important strategic move in decades.''
    As someone who served as commander in Indo-Pacific, can you 
describe the strategic importance of AUKUS, in particular 
providing Australia with nuclear technology to have a nuclear-
powered submarine force, as it relates to the priority of 
building regional partnership capacity in the Indo-Pacific?
    Admiral Harris. Thanks, Congressman. AUKUS is supremely 
important. We are going to share the crown jewel of America's 
military technology--the nuclear submarine, the nuclear 
reactors--with another country, and that is Australia. We have 
not done that with any other country, except for the U.K. back 
in the late 1950s and into the 1960s. So here we have the two 
countries with that capability, the United States and the U.K., 
and we are going to share that with Australia. It is 
significant, but it is only going to be significant over the 
long term if we follow through. So it is a decade-long process, 
you know. Some people, the CNO, Chief of Naval Operations, has 
said it could be 30 years before we see an Australian nuclear 
submarine underway in the Indian Ocean. I said that, if we put 
our hearts and minds to it and our resources to it--and by ours 
I mean ours, the United States, the U.K.'s, and Australia's--we 
can do this faster than that. I mean, we put a man on the moon 
in 8 years, and we developed a COVID [coronavirus disease] 
vaccine in 1 year. We can do this, but we are going to have to 
put our shoulders to the task.
    For Australia, which has a tremendous military, for them to 
have the long reach of a nuclear submarine force would be 
dramatic. It would help us dramatically. It would change the 
balance of power in the Indian Ocean, and it would make 
Australia a blue-water navy. They are our key ally in that part 
of the world, and I am all for it.
    Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Admiral. And your comments about 
execution are very timely because, in about a month's time, the 
process that has been underway since the President's 
announcement is going to be going public and live. And one of 
the biggest questions that we have to solve as a Congress is to 
make sure that we knock down the barriers of export controls to 
share that nuclear technology, and that actually is going to be 
a task for this committee.
    Doctor, I don't know whether you had any comments you want 
to add to that.
    Dr. Sisson. Thank you. Yes. Just briefly, I think it is 
important to note that anything that improves our situational 
awareness in the Western Pacific and ability to operate there 
broadly is very good for our policy overall in the region and 
our interests in the region. And part of the reason for that is 
it is a visible demonstration to the CCP of how widespread the 
commitment is of its regional neighbors and beyond to certain 
standards and expectations of behavior. And that will limit and 
constrain the environment in which they are able to pursue 
their interests in ways that are, at a minimum, problematic 
and, at most, illegal and dangerous.
    Mr. Courtney. Great. Thank you. And regarding, again, the 
asymmetrical advantage of regional networks, again, just in the 
last month, we've had two announcements about the U.S. being 
able to have four new bases in the Philippines, as well as now 
some new rotational agreements with Japan. Again, Admiral, 
maybe you could just describe how that sort of fits in to the 
discussion this morning.
    Admiral Harris. Sure. So the Philippines is the key. I 
mean, they are at the point of the spear in the South China 
Sea. You know, it is hard to imagine a fight with the PRC 
without being able to use bases on the Philippines. Separately, 
we have a longstanding relationship with the Philippines, some 
of it troubled, and this, I believe, will go a long way toward 
making us a better ally of them. They are an ally of the United 
States, but we need to be an ally for them, and I think this 
will help in that regard also.
    Sir, just back to your previous question. I can't emphasize 
enough how important it is to get through this export issue, 
export control issue, with Australia. I mean, we could have 
every good intention in the world, but we could be bound up by 
our own regulation and our own regulatory policy. So whatever 
can be done to relax that would be----
    The Chairman. The gentleman's time is expired. The Chair 
now recognizes the gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Lamborn.
    Mr. Lamborn. Thank you to the witnesses for appearing today 
and to Chairman Rogers for organizing this timely and urgent 
hearing on national security threats from China. Admiral 
Harris, and welcome to Colorado Springs when you finally get a 
chance to finally retire.
    Admiral Harris. Thanks.
    Mr. Lamborn. My top priority as chairman of the Strategic 
Forces Subcommittee is to accelerate our hypersonic 
capabilities, both offensive and defensive. Nowhere is the need 
for this more clear than in the Pacific. I am extremely 
concerned about the anemic pace with which the Department seems 
to be pursuing hypersonic capabilities, and I am also troubled 
by the current limited plan to field these systems. Most 
relevant for this hearing is the Navy's plan to field offensive 
hypersonics on the Zumwalt destroyer of which we only have 
three.
    Could you discuss the strategic implications of China's 
hypersonic weapons for our planning and the importance you 
place on fielding American hypersonic capabilities as quickly 
as possible? And I am going to ask you to pull the microphone 
just a little closer to you. Thank you.
    Admiral Harris. Thanks, thanks, sir. It is good to be from 
Colorado, I believe. So I'll be brief with my answer because 
the real expert is right here, but I'll just say that we are 
shooting behind the Peking duck on hypersonics. China is ahead 
of us in that regard. We need an offensive capability, and we 
need a defensive capability. Imagine a missile that is flying 
so fast that you can't pick it up on radar, let alone shoot it 
down. And that is what we are up against, and we need to invest 
in that capability now in order to, again, right the errant 
course that we are on.
    Mr. Lamborn. Doctor.
    Dr. Sisson. So I should also say it is good to be from 
Colorado. I grew up in Colorado Springs, and I come from a line 
of Colorado natives, in fact, so I am happy that the admiral is 
getting a taste of the good life there, too.
    Sir, in regards to your question, I understand the interest 
in hypersonics and the concern about the CCP's advances in that 
area. My perspective is that the priority investment in terms 
of technology is less, from the United States perspective, 
should be less on those large and very exquisite kinds of 
platforms and capabilities. I favor much more strongly the 
ability, again, to disperse and be mobile and the AI-enabled 
technologies that support those kinds of missions.
    This is not to say we shouldn't be continuing to invest in 
and learn from research into hypersonics and the development 
thereof. It is just not, to my mind, the first priority.
    Mr. Lamborn. Let me shift gears to China's breakout in 
nuclear forces. A former STRATCOM [U.S. Strategic Command] 
commander, Admiral Richard, called it breathtaking, and I 
agree. And, Chairman Rogers, you referred to this also, the 
number of launchers that they have is now at or higher than the 
amount that the U.S. has. And I think they are also watching 
what is happening in Ukraine where Putin, to some degree of 
success, is having his threats of nuclear--of the use of 
nuclear weapons have an effect on some of the players there.
    How do you assess that China's nuclear build-up fits into 
its strategy to attain what they call national rejuvenation? 
And this is for both of you. Thank you.
    Admiral Harris. So I believe that their nuclear force 
breakout, if you will, is part and parcel of what they believe 
their overall intent is. You know, they want to overcome this 
100 years of humiliation piece and their dream of national 
rejuvenation by 2049, the 100th anniversary of the modern PRC, 
will be enhanced by their nuclear capability.
    Twenty twenty-seven, the Davidson window, if you will, that 
is the 100th year of the PLA, the People's Liberation Army, so 
that is another important milestone. And it behooves us to 
modernize our nuclear arsenal, as well, so that we keep up. We 
never want to create a situation whereby China or any other 
country can envision a successful first strike.
    Mr. Lamborn. Doctor.
    Dr. Sisson. Thank you, Representative. I think the admiral 
is correct that there is a status element involved in the 
expansion of the PRC's nuclear capabilities. I think it is also 
a response to their perceptions of a more threatening 
international environment. I also agree with the admiral that 
we need to be attentive to modernization of our triad and, yet, 
we can be confident that we still retain vast stocks far in 
excess of what the CCP's ambitions suggest that they will be 
able to achieve in the near term.
    Mr. Lamborn. Thank you.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
New Jersey, Mr. Norcross, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Norcross. Thank you, Chairman. As we are witnessing the 
invasion of Ukraine by Russia, we hear a tremendous amount of 
talk about red lines on both sides. The one thing that we 
certainly continue to have is that top-level discussion and 
understanding of where those red lines are and what can happen 
in the event that there is a breach before we go out to a more 
wider war.
    Let's look at China right now. You have each talked about 
the breakout times, 2025, 2027, but the heightened awareness of 
what is taking place in that area of our globe. How do we avoid 
miscalculation at this point when our relations are not the 
same with China? Dr. Sisson.
    Dr. Sisson. Thank you, Representative, for your concern in 
miscalculation. I think it is one of the most serious risks in 
our relationship with China right now, as evidenced by, in 
fact, the spy balloon incident recently. I think that the way 
that we can minimize those risks is to engage in as many high-
level conversations with the government of the PRC as we can. I 
think it is a shame that Secretary Blinken's trip was canceled 
because we need those high-level contacts. It would have been 
an opportunity to discuss crisis management, for example, in 
addition to being able to press the CCP on their other such 
problematic behaviors worldwide.
    Mr. Norcross. Admiral Harris, you've been----
    Admiral Harris. I'll just add a little bit to what Dr. 
Sisson has said and emphasize that diplomats and diplomacy 
matter in the 21st century. It is a shame that the Secretary of 
State's visit was canceled or postponed. It is indicative of 
China's tone deaf behavior that, even on the eve of his visit, 
they would have this balloon travel across the United States. 
They claimed that it was--it's a weather balloon that went off 
course, yet they didn't tell us that it was going off course 
until we discovered it. So, I mean, it just--again, it beggars 
the imagination what they are saying over there.
    So I do think that diplomacy matters. At the height of the 
Cold War, we should never forget that we maintained diplomatic 
relations with the Soviet Union even in those dark days of the 
1960s and 1970s. So I hope that we get back on some diplomatic 
footing with the PRC. It is important to both countries that we 
do so.
    Mr. Norcross. Thank you. I yield back.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
Virginia, Mr. Wittman, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'd like to thank our 
witnesses for joining us today. As we watched this past 
weekend, we really shouldn't be shocked that the CCP had taken 
the brazen effort to fly a spy balloon over the United States. 
We've seen behavior by the CCP, purchase of agricultural lands, 
purchase of strategic lands around military bases. We look, 
too, at their recruiting of intellectual capacity from the 
United States to China. We see, too, the incredible importation 
of illicit fentanyl here to the United States and the havoc 
that it has wreaked on our communities.
    This committee understands very clearly both the near-, 
medium-, and long-term effects of Chinese aggression.
    The challenge for us is to figure out what do we do in a 
timely way that matches the capability and capacity that China 
is building right now. I believe that our force structure, as 
we have it today, is misaligned to the challenges that are not 
only in front of us but that are emerging from China.
    Admiral Harris, I wanted to get your thought on critical 
weapon systems for the United States. In your experience in the 
Indo-Pacific AOR [area of responsibility] and your 
understanding of Beijing's strategic intent, you said in your 
opening statement you have seen things morphed in the past 5 
years to a much, much more aggressive stance and an increased 
capability. Do you think the Department of Defense in their 
planning and budgeting is doing so in such a way that addresses 
the near-term threat from Beijing?
    Admiral Harris. Thanks, Congressman. I think so, to the 
degree that we all have to realize that, you know, the ships 
that we are building today, for example, are going to be around 
for 30 or 40 years. You know, the ships and the airplanes and 
the tanks and whatever that we use to fight the PRC have been 
extant now for a decade or longer, so these things take time to 
build and they take time to field and to train for it.
    So we have the military that we have that we are going to 
use to defend America against the PRC or any other threat. We 
have it. Whether it could have been better, whether different 
ships could have been built, or whatever, it is what it is, and 
that is the force that we have.
    That said, I am pleased with some of the improvements that 
I've read about. Shipbuilding in the Navy, for example, with 
the new frigates that are coming online, the new aircraft 
carriers that are coming online, and all of that. It takes a 
long time, and, for some reason, I couldn't understand it when 
I was in uniform either. It seems to take longer than it should 
to develop and field a new weapon system.
    I do think that the most important capability that we have 
to get right is the nuclear deterrent. That is the first thing. 
It is also the most expensive thing.
    Mr. Wittman. Admiral Harris, I think you hit the nail on 
the head. I think the speed of relevance is critical today. We 
cannot take years to develop, whether it is software or 
advanced weapon systems, whatever it may be. It has to be 
months; and, unfortunately, the history shows us recently that 
that is not the case. We see 2 years for the Navy to make a 
decision on the next-generation jamming efforts. We see 2 years 
to work through the F/A-18Fs production, totaling about 20 
jets. You know, those things take much too long. The TR-3 
upgrade for our F-35s, again, met with General Brown today, 
another delay. You know, we are not in the realm of where we 
can survive taking years to do things. It has to be done in 
months.
    Can you give us your perspective, and you talked a little 
bit about it, about pacing on modernization, pacing on 
developing and implementing emerging technologies to counter 
Beijing and the things that they are doing. I said at the 
Reagan National Defense Forum, China starts out with a blank 
sheet of paper; our process to do acquisition at the Pentagon 
takes an 11 by 17 sheet of paper, and you have to use a 
microscope to read the words on it and understand the flow 
chart.
    Admiral Harris. Well, we follow, and rightly so, you know, 
law, regulation, and policy. The PRC is able to insert 
themselves in the middle of our acquisition, long acquisition 
cycle through theft and cyber espionage. So they get a jump on 
us because they are not bound by our laws, regulation, and 
policy. I do believe that if we are serious about China, the 
entire country needs to--our entire country needs to move 
faster, as you said.
    Mr. Wittman. Yes. Very good. Dr. Sisson.
    Dr. Sisson. Just quickly, Representative. I don't worry 
about lethality for the U.S. military right now. I worry about 
resilience. And so if we are going to accelerate development in 
any particular area, that is where I would go first.
    Mr. Wittman. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. [Inaudible.]
    Mr. Gallego. Thank you. This first question is actually for 
both and just a commentary, if you'd give it to us, in regards 
to our diplomatic and strategic relations with some South 
Pacific island nations. I led a delegation last year, as 
chairman of Intel and Special Operations [Subcommittee], and 
some of the things that we heard were, number one, that a lot 
of our South Pacific friends did not like the fact that we use 
Australia as kind of a proxy for us; and number two, that they 
are fearing more and more and feeling more and more Chinese 
exertion of power. And also if you could comment, I think it 
was Fiji that has really started leaning even further towards 
China. Because this is also a, this is a game of space, and the 
closer we can get to China the more we can deter them and the 
further they can get to us where they can deter us. So I would 
love to hear what you guys are thinking or feeling about our 
relations down there.
    Dr. Sisson. Well, I will begin, Representative, by saying 
that I am a strategist who studies deterrence primarily, and so 
I am not going to be the most sensitive observer or most 
nuanced analyst of the full spectrum of regional dynamics. But 
what I will say is it is very clear that the nations in the 
region are increasingly uncomfortable with China's behaviors 
and that they are looking to the United States and our partners 
and allies broadly to help them carve out the space that they 
need to do their primary job, which is to take care of the 
interests of their countries and their people.
    Mr. Gallego. Admiral Harris, as former Ambassador to 
Australia, I believe; is that correct?
    Admiral Harris. I beg your pardon?
    Mr. Gallego. And as former Ambassador to Australia, or is 
it just South Korea?
    Admiral Harris. No, I wished I was.
    Mr. Gallego. Right. I think we nominated you.
    Admiral Harris. I was nominated.
    Mr. Gallego. Yes, we nominated you, but then we moved you 
over. I don't know if you have any----
    Admiral Harris. I loved my time in South Korea. And at the 
same time, I was disappointed I didn't go to Australia.
    Mr. Gallego. Right. So are we. But I don't know if you have 
any----
    Admiral Harris. Is that diplomatic enough?
    Mr. Gallego [continuing]. Any insight into our relations in 
the South Pacific.
    Admiral Harris. Yes. So where we are in the South Pacific, 
I believe, is an outcome of some very bad decisions that we 
made in the 1990s or so. For example, we made the decision to 
shut down the embassy in the Solomons, and we should not be 
surprised in 2023 or 2022 that China moved into that vacuum in 
a big way and inked a defense relationship with the Solomons.
    You know, I was in Fiji last year, and the American Embassy 
in Fiji is responsible for five islands, five independent 
countries that the ambassador there is accredited to. That is a 
mistake. It is probably a budget-driven mistake that we need to 
fix and we are fixing. The U.S. is going to re-stand up our 
embassy in the Solomons, and we are going to put at least one 
other embassy in that area of five countries that the American 
Embassy in Fiji was responsible for.
    Separately, but related, we are doing the same thing in 
Maldives. Maldives right now is covered by the ambassador and 
the embassy in Sri Lanka. We are standing up an independent 
separate embassy in the Maldives. We need to do more of this 
because, again, I hate to go back to what I keep saying, but 
diplomacy and diplomats matter. I came to that realization late 
in my life, but I hope to be able to influence----
    Mr. Gallego. Thank you, Admiral. And I will say, from our 
travels, and we went to Palau, Papua New Guinea, Philippines, 
we did hear that we need to exert our diplomatic initiatives 
stronger in that area.
    Dr. Sisson, on the topic of Taiwan, you write that you want 
to encourage the government of Taiwan to adopt a defensive 
concept that forces the PLA to suboptimal strategies. Could you 
describe in greater detail that defense concept you have in 
mind?
    Dr. Sisson. I will give you as much detail as I can but 
caveat it by saying that it is a big question, and I would be 
happy to engage with you and your staff after we're done on 
more specifics if you want. But the basics are actually not, 
you know, they are not rocket surgery, right. I mean, they are 
things that would make it more difficult for the PLA to get its 
ships close to the island. There is advantages of the terrain 
on the island that Taiwan could certainly work with. There is 
long shorelines that you can take advantage of with particular 
kinds of munitions, and fast-attack ships, for example. So 
those are the sort of pointy edge of the immediate kinds of 
response.
    But, again, you know, the defense concept really has to 
have at its core the resilience of the Taiwan people, which is 
something that they are clearly aware of and, unfortunately and 
painfully even more so given the events in Ukraine. So those 
are the combination of the kinds of elements we would want to 
see in a strategy for Taiwan's defense.
    Mr. Gallego. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chair.
    The Chairman. The chairman now recognizes the gentleman 
from Tennessee, Dr. DesJarlais.
    Dr. DesJarlais. Thank you, Chairman. My question is for 
Admiral Harris. Admiral, all of us on this committee have faced 
questions from our constituents about the degree of U.S. 
involvement in Ukraine. Some of the individuals point out our 
own depleting stockpiles and the nearly $20 billion backlog in 
arm sales to Taiwan. Many conclude that we just don't have the 
present capacity to maintain the level of assistance to Ukraine 
that we currently are seeing while remaining ready and able to 
deter the Chinese threat.
    In your view, is this a binary choice between helping 
Ukraine now and preparing for Taiwan for a looming conflict 
with China later, or do you think we can adequately address 
both at the same time?
    Admiral Harris. Thanks, Congressman. My relatives in 
Tennessee where I grew up have asked me that same question. I 
believe that we can do both. We can walk and chew gum at the 
same time. We are hamstrung by what we can do with Taiwan by 
policy, not by law, not by the Constitution, but by policy. And 
I think we can and should do more with them.
    That said, Ukraine is the wolf closest to the sled, and we 
have to deal with Ukraine today. I believe that we are doing a 
lot with Ukraine, but I think there's more juice in that 
orange, if you will. You know, we have given them Stingers and 
Javelins and HIMARS [High Mobility Artillery Rocket System] and 
helicopters, and soon we are going to give them VAMPIRE 
[Vehicle-Agnostic Modular Palletized ISR Rocket Equipment] 
anti-drone systems, Patriots, and Abrams tanks, and that's what 
they need.
    If we don't help Ukraine fight Russia today, then are we 
going to be asked to help Moldova when Russia attacks Moldova 
or Kazakhstan or Turkmenistan or any of the other countries 
that are on the periphery of the former Soviet Union. The 
Baltics, too, but that is a different nut to crack because the 
Baltics are a part of NATO [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] 
now.
    So I do believe that we need to do as much as we can for 
Ukraine, and we have the capacity to help Taiwan at the same 
time. So it is not binary, but we have to overcome policy on 
the Taiwan front and not so much on the Ukraine front.
    Dr. DesJarlais. Okay. Understand that. What role does 
Congress have in helping alleviate these concerns? Are there 
certain initiatives that you would like to see us undertake to 
support the industrial base and the warfighter and to help get 
us out of the hole that we are in right now?
    Admiral Harris. Sure. I think the biggest thing is to pass 
a budget. I mean, the lack of a budget hamstrings industry and 
prohibits the Department from doing adequate long-range 
planning. That is one thing.
    We talked before about export controls with regard to 
Australia. If we don't get the export controls right, then it 
doesn't matter how much good intent there is in getting them a 
nuclear submarine capability. The export controls will bite us 
right in the--well, I won't say where it is going to bite us, 
but it is going to bite us right there if we don't get that 
right.
    With regard to Taiwan, I have mentioned some of the things 
already. A free trade agreement helps Taiwan in an economic 
sense probably more than it helps us. But what it does do, it 
creates this sense that we are willing to engage in a free 
trade agreement with Taiwan and other countries might also be 
encouraged to pile on to that, which helps them in a big way.
    Dr. DesJarlais. Okay. I want to try to get in one other 
question because you brought up the other countries that are 
threatened by Russia, and you know, it ties into Taiwan, as 
well. I just kind of wanted to get your opinion on your 
thoughts on the deterrence strategy that was adopted by the 
current administration in the lead-up to the invasion of 
Ukraine. Former Prime Minister Boris Johnson was here last 
week, and he reminded us, one of the biggest reasons not to let 
Ukraine join NATO was that Putin might invade Ukraine, and we 
saw how that worked out.
    So if we are going to keep these type of things from 
happening in the future, Taiwan, you know, what happened to 
Ukraine, what could happen to other countries if we don't stand 
strong right now, what is your opinion on how we can do better 
next time?
    Admiral Harris. So I have talked about it in other venues. 
I think this issue of strategic clarity versus strategic 
ambiguity is critical, and we have been well served, I will be 
the first to say that, by the policy of strategic ambiguity 
with Taiwan over the past 44 years. But I think the time for 
ambiguity is over. I think we have to be as clear about our 
intent with regard to what would happen if the PRC invades 
Taiwan, as the PRC is clear in its intent that it is ultimately 
going to seize Taiwan if need be.
    The Chairman. The gentleman's time is expired. The Chair 
now recognizes the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Moulton.
    Mr. Moulton. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And thank 
you very much, both of you, for joining us today. Ukraine is 
winning the war that Russia started by invading their country 
illegally, in part because we have assembled a remarkable 
coalition of allies, the best we have seen since World War II. 
We have provided them with extraordinary weapons and 
capabilities, and, of course, the Ukrainian fighting spirit is 
something that the world is admiring.
    The problem is that all three of those factors have come to 
the forefront after Putin invaded. And so we have to admit 
that, for everything that is going well in Ukraine, deterrence 
failed. And I certainly agree with the chairman and ranking 
member that we cannot let deterrence fail in the Pacific.
    So can you talk to me about how our preparations to be more 
resilient in the face of Chinese aggression are actually 
translating into deterrence? How are we showing China that 
these exquisite capabilities we are developing, often very much 
behind the scenes, are going to severely impact their ability 
to conduct a successful war.
    Dr. Sisson. You raise the important point about 
preparations and also the important point about signaling and 
what it is that we convey and demonstrate to the CCP and how 
that affects their perceptions of our intentions and, 
therefore, are or are not deterred.
    I would start by pointing out that, when we think about a 
strategy of deterrence, we have to begin from the presumption 
of failure. We have to accept that failure is likely to some 
greater or lesser extent; and, therefore, we have to design our 
strategies of deterrence with two things in mind. The first is 
when the strategy fails, what position does it leave the United 
States in; and the second is are there things that we can do to 
decrease the likelihood of that failure.
    In regard to Taiwan, the fundamentals of both of those 
things right now are still sound. Adding capabilities, whether 
behind the scenes or in full public view of the CCP 
fundamentally won't change the nature of the dynamic where it 
is clear that we are not giving Beijing a free pass and we are 
also not giving Taipei a blank check. And so I am not concerned 
that we need to demonstrate capability at this point in any 
greater extent than we have. What we need to do is convey 
cohesion, we need to convey confidence that we understand what 
is happening in the strait, and we need to exude calm and 
confidence in the role that we have in preserving peace and 
stability in the Taiwan Strait.
    Mr. Moulton. Ambassador Harris.
    Admiral Harris. Yes, I will associate myself with 
everything that Dr. Sisson said. I will also add to it that the 
PRC is a learning machine. Xi Jinping, if nothing else, is 
watching and learning about what is happening in Ukraine. And I 
think he has got to be wondering if his army, which is trained 
in the Soviet model, is as bad as Russia's army appears to be, 
if his Navy is as weak as the Black Sea fleet appears to be. 
And I will just add, you know, if he had gone to my alma mater, 
he would have known that lesson one is don't lose your 
flagship. So he has got to be thinking about that, and he has 
got to be thinking if his generals are as bad as the Russian 
generals are wanted to be.
    Mr. Moulton. Thank you very much. Let me get a second 
question here. There is increasing evidence that China is 
facing a demographic and economic cliff in the coming years. If 
that is true, does it make it more or less likely that Xi 
Jinping does something rash and aggressive?
    Dr. Sisson. I, unfortunately don't have a great answer to 
that. I have been studying the behavior of my husband for 20 
years, I'm the world's foremost expert, and I still get it 
wrong 30 percent of the time. I think that you're right to 
identify that the CCP is sensitive to conditions, that this is 
not an inevitability because they are aware of the environment 
in which they operate, the resources that are at their 
disposal. And so we will have to pay close attention to all 
those conditions and go to the experts in the intelligence 
community for their assessment of how Xi is interpreting them.
    Admiral Harris. Yes. I think the only answer to that 
question is in hindsight because there are lots of folks that 
will weigh in on either side of that. So we are going to have 
to just prepare to fight tonight, to use something I said 
before.
    The PRC is also facing a demographic cliff. You know, just 
this year, they have been surpassed by India as the world's 
most populace country. And so that is another driver behind 
some people who would say that the likelihood that China will 
attack Taiwan is sooner rather than later.
    Mr. Moulton. Well, there are a lot of differences between 
Russia and China, but it seems like there could be a 
frightening analogy here or a comparison, or a parallel, 
rather, between Xi Jinping and Vladimir Putin.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    The Chairman. Thank the gentleman. The Chair now recognizes 
the gentleman from Nebraska, General Bacon, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Bacon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can't think of a more 
important topic for our first hearing, so I appreciate the 
focus. It seems to me that deterrence in Taiwan should be one 
of our top national security priorities because day one of the 
war it is too late. And I hear a lot of talk from the 
administration. I don't know that I see the action, you know, 
that is equating to the talk that we have. We have a huge 
backlog of weapons that I read about. It seems to me they 
should be getting Harpoons, long-range air defense, anti-
shipping mines, and so forth.
    So my question to both of our great panelists, and thank 
you for being here today, are we seeing the right sense of 
urgency from this administration when it comes to Taiwan? 
Admiral Harris, you first, please.
    Admiral Harris. Yes. I don't want to get in the business of 
discussing this administration's view as opposed to the last 
administration's or any others. I will just observe that, over 
the course of the last 20 or 30 years, we have not done enough 
for Taiwan writ large across all administrations. We have not 
done enough, given the threats that Taiwan faces and given the 
fact that we have put Taiwan in this place.
    We are seeing the PRC systematically attack Taiwan's 
foreign relations such that their list of countries that 
recognize them is dwindling. Of course, we led that way in the 
1970s. But I think we have the right sight picture on Taiwan 
now. I think we have had that now for sure from the previous 
administration and into this administration, as I mentioned in 
my remarks, Secretary Blinken and his view and Secretary Austin 
and his view.
    There is still far more that we could with Taiwan, and most 
of it is tied up not in law where you all are behind but in 
policy. And I think it is those policy things that, if we could 
get through those, then we would be in a better place and 
Taiwan would be in a much better place to defend itself. I 
mean, isn't that what we really want? We want them to fight and 
die for their country, not us to fight and die for their 
country.
    Mr. Bacon. I will give Dr. Sisson a chance. I just want to 
say we have billions and billions of dollars in backlog 
weapons, and there is a lot of these policy discussions but the 
actions are not going on that we need to see. Dr. Sisson.
    Dr. Sisson. I think we do need to move with seriousness but 
not in a way that is overreactive. We don't want to heighten 
tensions by overmilitarizing the way in which that we engage 
with Taiwan right now. I think the admiral is correct to point 
out that there are any number of important other ways that we 
can support Taiwan in the international system that are very 
important to deterrence.
    Mr. Bacon. Okay. Thank you. I heard the same thing from the 
administration when it came to Ukraine, though. They didn't 
want to provoke Russia. So I would rather move with expediency 
to give Taiwan what they need to defend themselves.
    And my second question is, I think we need a more holistic 
policy when it comes to China. There is a lot of different 
aspects to our policy, you know, whether it is predatory trade, 
the theft of our technology, the genocide with the Uyghurs, the 
denial of democracy in Hong Kong, the threat to Taiwan, the 
buying of access in our institutions in America. We need a 
comprehensive policy that looks at all of this.
    Is it your view that we right now have a comprehensive 
policy with China? Admiral Harris.
    Admiral Harris. Yes, thanks. I don't think we have that 
comprehensive policy, but I think we are much further along now 
in 2023 than we have ever been. I used to talk about, during 
the Cold War with the Soviet Union, almost every branch of the 
U.S. Government understood that the Soviet Union was the 
threat. You know, I used to joke even a park ranger, Smokey the 
Bear, would tell you that the Soviets were the bad guys. We 
didn't have that comprehensive unified view of the PRC. You 
know, the State Department looked at it as a negotiation; DOD 
looked at it as a military operation; Commerce looked at it as 
a trading partner; and Treasury looked at it as a lender. So we 
didn't have this unified view across the government, but I 
think now we are getting to that unified view and I think the 
Congress has a lot to do, has done a lot, rather, to get us in 
that position.
    Mr. Bacon. Thank you, Admiral. And with the 35 seconds 
left, I will turn the rest of the time to Dr. Sisson.
    Dr. Sisson. Thank you. Yes, I will use it briefly to 
wholeheartedly agree with what the admiral has said and point 
out also that, in addition to the external levers and 
mechanisms of addressing the strategic activities of the CCP, 
we also are seeing much more progress looking internally and 
the things that we need to do domestically to position the 
United States to be able to use all of its sources of national 
power. So I think we are not all the way there, but the 
direction of travel is good.
    Mr. Bacon. My thanks to you both. I yield back.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
California, Mr. Carbajal, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Carbajal. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Dr. Sisson and Admiral 
Harris. Last year, the State Council Information Office of the 
People's Republic of China published a white paper entitled 
``China's Space Program: A 2021 Perspective'' outlining it's 5-
year space strategy. The report stated the space industry is a 
critical element of the overall national strategy. The PRC is 
expanding its investment in space technology and launch 
capabilities.
    Here at home, the United States continues to stand up our 
Space Force and increase our investment in space-based 
capabilities. As we rely more on the space domain, what PRC 
space capabilities do you perceive as the most advanced 
compared to U.S. Space Force's, and is there a platform or 
technology in the space domain that the United States should be 
more focused on as we further analyze what the PRC plans to 
invest in?
    Dr. Sisson. Those are all very important questions, 
Representative, and I can only report with sadness that I am 
not actually a rocket scientist. I do know some and would be 
happy to follow up.
    Broadly speaking, what I would say is that, when we think 
about the space domain, we have to think about resilience and 
we have to think about defending those systems of not just 
obvious physical attacks but incursions through cyber domains.
    Mr. Carbajal. Admiral.
    Admiral Harris. Yes. Thanks for the question. I will note 
that, when I was in uniform, I did not support the idea of a 
separate space service. But since then, I have come to realize 
that without a separate space service we will not do what needs 
to be done to maintain our supremacy in space. We are 
challenged in space by the Russians and the Chinese, and we 
need to up our game, if you will. And I think the Space Force 
is critical to that, and I am a believer in it completely.
    One of the things that I hope that we wean ourselves from 
is our reliance on Soviet rockets, or Russian rockets--sorry, a 
little Cold War slipping out there--a little on Russian rockets 
for our manned space programs. So I am looking forward to 
seeing our own rockets sending American women and men to the 
moon and beyond.
    Mr. Carbajal. Thank you. My colleague, House Republicans, 
have started this Congress very focused on China and strategic 
competition with the CCP. This committee understandably focuses 
on the People's Liberation Army, but I think we are missing a 
part of this conversation and the strategic competition 
conversation broadly.
    To truly compete with China, we must invest in ourselves 
and in our people to boost the economy and our American talent. 
Even in former President Trump's National Security Strategy, 
one of the main components is ``promoting American prosperity'' 
and explicitly noting the United States must preserve our lead 
in research and technology. How should we do that? I would 
argue that we must invest in the American people to ensure they 
have access to affordable higher education and have a welcoming 
society that attracts foreign talent to American companies.
    It also requires investment in American high-tech 
manufacturing and ending resilience on China, like what the 
CHIPS [Creating Helpful Incentives to Produce Semiconductors] 
and Science Act does, which only received, if I must point out, 
24 votes from my colleagues on the other side of the aisle. We 
must invest in domestic programs to improve our strategic 
competition on the global stage. It is not just about 
purchasing more weapons.
    Dr. Sisson, what is your experience in writing about 
artificial intelligence and machine learning? How important is 
having an educated qualified workforce to conduct the research 
of this emerging technology?
    Dr. Sisson. Well, none of those things can happen, we can't 
have emerging technology without a trained workforce invested 
in the mission and interested in undertaking the work. I think 
your emphasis on artificial intelligence is particularly apt 
when we think about the strategic competition with China. There 
certainly are and will continue to be military applications of 
artificial intelligence in the defense enterprise.
    Really, when I think about the competition over artificial 
intelligence, it is beyond that. It is about a competition to 
see where the discoveries that help human health, wealth, and 
well-being worldwide happen and how they get distributed. And I 
very much would like to see the where be here and how be based 
on our values and principles and not those of the CCP. All of 
that will require, as you know, concerted investment in the 
sources of human talent that are the ones that innovate those 
technologies in the first place.
    Mr. Carbajal. Thank you. I'm out of time. I yield back, Mr. 
Chair.
    Mr. Scott [presiding]. The Chair recognizes Mr. Gaetz for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Gaetz. Admiral Harris, it is great to have you back 
before the committee. Few people know China's capabilities like 
you do. When you saw this balloon traversing the continent of 
North America, what concerned you most?
    Admiral Harris. Yes. Thanks, Congressman. Good to see you 
again. Well, I mean, the most concern was what was it doing and 
what information is it getting and is it itself dangerous. I 
mean, we don't know. I mean, General VanHerck talked about the 
possibility that there were explosives on the balloon and all 
of that. General Hertling talked about whether the balloon was 
sent up as a ploy to see what we would do. And I think that 
your comments about it, in the media at least, were some of the 
best that I read, and that is does it give--would shooting it 
down give China a sort of pretext for them to do the same 
thing. We just don't know at the time that it happened.
    Fortunately, we had time because, I mean, let's face it, 
it's a balloon, so we had time to think about it, to consider 
it, to weigh it, and I think, most importantly, perhaps not 
most importantly but certainly importantly, it gave China a 
chance to address the issue diplomatically, which they failed 
to do, to no surprise.
    So, ultimately, the decision was made to shoot it down and 
did so in a way that was safe for people and property and in a 
way that we could collect the information. It is only in 47 
feet of water.
    Mr. Gaetz. In our limited time, let's bifurcate that: the 
danger and then the transmission of information. We have the 
capability to block the transmission of information from the 
balloon back to China, don't we?
    Admiral Harris. We do.
    Mr. Gaetz. And in this type of an environment, do you think 
it is probably likely that we did that?
    Admiral Harris. I would only guess, but I think General 
VanHerck said that----
    Mr. Gaetz. Well, you can't see any reason why we wouldn't 
do that.
    Admiral Harris. Right.
    Mr. Gaetz. And when it comes to the danger that the balloon 
poses, are you aware of capability with this type of a balloon 
system to berth sensors or drones or other hardware or assets?
    Admiral Harris. I am not, but that is why it is so 
important to try to collect up all the pieces of this thing to 
understand. I mean, this thing is huge, right? The balloon 
itself is bigger than this room. It is 3,000 or 4,000 pounds of 
equipment, a couple of buses, I think, is what has been said.
    Mr. Gaetz. Yes. I just wonder, like, why would the Chinese 
use this balloon rather than a satellite system for 
surveillance, and one thing that, presumably, a satellite could 
not do would be berth other sensors or drones. And just so that 
it gives Americans comfort, your testimony here is, during your 
time in command, you never were aware of or briefed on a 
capability that the Chinese had to use a balloon system like 
that for that type of a proliferation of other hardware or 
assets?
    Admiral Harris. That's correct. And, again, that is why it 
is so important to collect as much of the balloon pieces that 
we can to understand exactly what we are dealing with.
    Mr. Gaetz. And while----
    Admiral Harris. It could very well be also that, maybe, it 
is just me speculating here because I am under pressure and I 
am liable to blurt out the truth, you know, it could very well 
be that maybe we have overestimated the capability of Chinese 
satellites in low-Earth orbit.
    Mr. Gaetz. Well, and you have shared with me that we have 
the capability to block any transmission of information from 
the balloon. And while you weren't in the situation room while 
this decision was being made, as you join us today, you can't 
assess a circumstance in which we would have ever allowed 
information to be----
    Admiral Harris. Right. I would think----
    Mr. Gaetz. It sorts of begs the question was this a big 
PSYOP [psychological operation]? Was this an effort by China to 
see how we would react to something like this that might not 
have had the danger that we spoke of because you are not aware 
of that capability and then also didn't have an intelligence 
collection function, and so, you know, to others, it may have 
been an effort to try to see how we would react, how we 
wouldn't react, and then to try to use that to inform their 
decision making.
    In my limited time I have left with the admiral, in the 
broadest sense, if we had $100 billion to dedicate to the China 
scenario, in which domain would that be the smartest 
investment?
    Admiral Harris. It would not be in counter-balloon warfare.
    Mr. Gaetz. I would agree. Would it be space, would it be 
cyber, or electronic warfare?
    Admiral Harris. I think it would be cyber. I think it would 
be cyber and space.
    Mr. Gaetz. And what dividends--if we made a $100 billion 
investment in cyber, what could the American people expect 
regarding the enhancement to their safety?
    Admiral Harris. I think we could be assured then that we 
wouldn't have intrusions, intentional or otherwise, from any 
number of actors, including Chinese.
    Mr. Gaetz. Well, assured of no intrusions from the Chinese 
sounds to me like a lot better than sending $100 billion to 
Ukraine, but that will be something we will assess as a team.
    Thank you so much. Yield back.
    Mr. Scott. The Chair recognizes Mr. Keating.
    Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Russia's illegal war 
with Ukraine has had enormous worldwide ramifications. In the 
shorter term, there has been some economic benefit to China in 
that regard, given their relationship. One example is the two 
permanent bridges they built between the borders of China and 
Russia to facilitate trade, and they have estimated that is, in 
1 year, an increase over the last of $190 billion there. China 
has also given information that their trade has increased 30 
percent with Russia during this period.
    So in the short run, but, in the longer run, I think this 
illegal war presents difficulties to China in terms of their 
economic strength and their overall plans. Can you comment on, 
you know, short-run and long-run ramifications of this war and 
what the U.S. can do to drive a wedge or to fill a vacuum that 
might be there in this time, and, importantly, how the U.S.-led 
coalition shapes China's decision not just militarily but 
economically and----
    Admiral Harris. Yes. I will start, and I will yield to Dr. 
Sisson. I think that Xi Jinping is no fool and he is watching 
this closely, and it throws a monkeywrench into his grand 
plans. So he is supportive of Russia, but I don't think he is 
all in on Russia.
    The coalition that you spoke about is key, and I believe 
that more and more countries who are on the fence regarding 
their relations with China and with Russia are seeing the 
reality of what Russia is all about in Ukraine, and that is 
forcing them to evaluate how they see their relationships with 
China. You know, are they going to fall in that same trap as 
being invaded by China at some point in the future. Are they 
going to yield their own sovereignty like Sri Lanka has done to 
Hambantota Port and others. You know, are they subject to debt 
diplomacy, the weaponization of debt, that the PRC has 
committed against any number of countries.
    Mr. Keating. Dr. Sisson.
    Dr. Sisson. Yes. I think that your question comes with the 
right perspective built in, which is, certainly, the CCP is 
going to take advantage of short-term opportunities as it can. 
I also will say that they probably didn't expect a need to do 
so, that this, I don't think, as the admiral said, was in their 
grand plans or something that they preferred to have happen. 
Now that it has, they have learned. They are taking advantage 
of these near-term opportunities, but they are not seeking any 
longer term entanglements, at least as far as I can see, and I 
would expect that to continue for the duration.
    I would also note that my understanding is that Xi has 
communicated to Putin that he ought not consider the use of any 
kind of nuclear detonation, which is among the most important 
things that I can possibly think of for the CCP to have done in 
regards to the conflict in Ukraine.
    Mr. Keating. I couldn't agree more. I think that Xi has 
made his point clear not to go beyond certain red lines. And 
without China there as an ally, that is going to have a huge 
and harmful effect on Russia going forward. So I do think China 
plays a critical role there, not by any motivations that aren't 
self-serving.
    But I would like to touch base, too, that coalition, as we 
think of the west, is always there. But we are seeing 
economically that extend to the Pacific, as well, Indo-Pacific, 
as well. So this has really, I think, facilitated relationships 
with a coalition of countries that really wasn't there before. 
Would you like to speak to that, either one?
    Admiral Harris. Sure. I think that there are a lot of 
countries that are coming together because of Ukraine and 
separately but related because of Chinese bad behavior. So we 
see the AUKUS, which is a formal defense arrangement. We see 
the Quad, which is an informal arrangement of like-minded 
democracies.
    Mr. Keating. And we also see international friendshore 
supply chains being established that weren't there. What you 
said, Admiral, the importance of export control.
    Admiral Harris. Yes. And I have talked about other 
countries joining the Quad, you know. The Big 10 has 14 teams, 
the Big 12 has 10 teams. Nothing that says the Quad has to have 
only four teams. So, you know, I think we should be open to 
that possibility.
    Mr. Keating. Yes. I think Russia's aggression is not only 
hurting Russia, I think it is hurting China, as well. And I 
yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman [presiding]. Thank you. The Chair now 
recognizes the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. Gallagher, for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Gallagher. Thank you. Thanks to our witnesses. Admiral 
Harris, good to see you again. I think the last time was in 
Singapore. You were wearing a Hawaiian shirt, and you reminded 
me that Marine was an acronym suggesting we ride in Navy 
equipment. I won't use the precise words you used because it is 
not appropriate for the hearing, but I appreciate that.
    In recent years, we have heard a slew of timetables from 
high-level officials about a prospective PLA invasion of Taiwan 
in 2027, 2025, 2024. Regardless of which timetable you 
subscribe to, do you agree that there is an increased threat of 
a PLA invasion of Taiwan within the decade?
    Admiral Harris. Yes. And what I used to say when I was in 
uniform was the decade of danger is the 2020s, but I wouldn't 
nail down a specific year. Though I would also say, when 
Admiral Davidson said that 2027 was his year, that he was privy 
to a lot more intelligence at the time he said it than I was. 
And so for whatever intelligence drove him to make that call, 
we should pay attention to it. There is something out there 
that caused him to say that 2027 was the year.
    Mr. Gallagher. Is your sense that the balance of power has 
eroded against us since you left that post?
    Admiral Harris. I think China's power has increased since 
2018.
    Mr. Gallagher. And then looking at the war in Ukraine, it 
seems to me there are two primary stories coming out of it. 
First, there is the failure of deterrence on February 24th, 
and, second, there is the success of the Ukrainian military in 
resisting Russian aggression. What lessons, if any, for Taiwan 
do you take from both of those, the initial failure of 
deterrence and then, subsequently, our security cooperation and 
training and equipping missions with the Ukrainians before and 
during the war.
    Admiral Harris. So we got it wrong with Ukraine in terms of 
intelligence because we thought that the Ukraine, at least what 
I read, you know, how would I know, but we thought that Ukraine 
would fall. So we got that wrong. We got it wrong with 
Afghanistan, and we estimated intelligence-wise that the Afghan 
National Army would last longer and that the Taliban could not 
possibly take over their country in the short amount of time 
that it did. So we got that wrong.
    So I am worried about our ability to do strategic 
intelligence. I think tactical intelligence we are unrivaled. 
But strategic intelligence, if we get it wrong with Ukraine, if 
we get it wrong with Afghanistan, then are we going to get it 
wrong about Taiwan and other countries? So that is an issue.
    As I said, I was in Taiwan. I left Taiwan with a sense that 
the people of Taiwan, the Taiwanese, are resilient, understand 
the threat, and understand what they have to do to meet that 
threat. So I was pleased and optimistic when I left.
    Mr. Gallagher. If our goal is to deter the threat, deter 
war, how important in your mind is it to arm Taiwan to the 
teeth prior to shooting starting?
    Admiral Harris. I think it is critical. I mean, you know, 
that goes back to what I said before about strategic clarity. 
Now, there is an argument that says if we are clear, then that 
could precipitate an attack, just like the other issues we 
talked about here before. I am of the other opinion, that if we 
are ambiguous, that might encourage an attack because Xi 
Jinping has been clear from day one that he is going to take 
Taiwan peacefully, hopefully, but by force if necessary.
    Mr. Gallagher. Well, I appreciate that. And I would note 
that clarifying strategic ambiguity has bipartisan support on 
this committee. It is not widespread, it is not uniformly 
shared, but I am hoping it is something we continue to discuss 
over the next 2 years on this committee, on the Select 
Committee on China, as well.
    Quickly, I remember, I don't know if it was testimony or a 
think tank speech you had given about when the INF 
[Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces] Treaty was still in force 
and pointing out that China was not bound by it. And I think 
that laid the intellectual groundwork for us getting out of the 
INF Treaty. I think we have a massive opportunity to field INF 
noncompliance systems that we are not taking advantage of. Do 
you see AUKUS as a vehicle for doing that? Is ITAR 
[International Traffic in Arms Regulations] still a barrier to 
working with the Aussies in terms of fielding longer range 
intermediate ground-launch missile systems?
    Admiral Harris. So ITAR is a barrier to realizing the full 
potential of AUKUS, as we talked about before. I don't see the 
direct correlation between AUKUS and INF. I was a complete 
supporter of getting out of INF because it was self-limiting. 
Russia wasn't abiding by it, and China is not a signatory to 
it, so I was in favor of pulling out of it. But we haven't 
realized the benefits of pulling out of it, as you just stated.
    Mr. Gallagher. I'm out of time.
    The Chairman. Thank the gentleman. The Chair now recognizes 
the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Kim, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Kim. Yes. Thank you, Chair. Thank you so much for both 
of you coming here. Admiral Harris, I wanted to start with you. 
You mentioned this now several times, this concept of strategic 
clarity. So I guess I just wanted to kind of pull the thread on 
this and get a sense of what you are thinking here. Are you 
thinking about this as some type of standing AUMF 
[Authorization for Use of Military Force] that would go into 
effect if--in the case that China were to move on Taiwan?
    Admiral Harris. No, I am thinking of it as a policy. Right 
now, our policy is strategic ambiguity. Will we define Taiwan 
if China attacks? I don't know. I mean, that is what strategic 
ambiguity is. So it keeps the option, I guess, open. I think it 
is too late for that now. I think we need to move to a position 
of strategic clarity, and I think that----
    Mr. Kim. So you are saying there wouldn't be a standing 
AUMF. Would it be some type of treaty or security guarantee to 
Taiwan?
    Admiral Harris. No. Well, it would be a security guarantee 
in terms of a policy. It is policy is what I am talking about. 
And I think it is important for----
    Mr. Kim. Well, I guess I am asking here, you know, is that 
something that you think the Executive can set on its own or--
--
    Admiral Harris. Yes.
    Mr. Kim [continuing]. Or would you seek congressional, some 
type of congressional approval on this?
    Admiral Harris. I am neither in the Executive or in the 
House. The Executive can set policy on the Executive's own 
but----
    Mr. Kim. I am just trying to contain the magnitude of what 
you are asking for here. What you are asking for is a policy 
that would bind the United States to military conflict?
    Admiral Harris. Yes.
    Mr. Kim. Setting a red line by the executive branch without 
the Congress weighing in on whether or not that is actually a 
policy that we would seek for the American people; is that 
correct?
    Admiral Harris. No, no. I am saying it is a policy change. 
We have a policy of strategic ambiguity, which the Congress 
hasn't weighed in on that one either. It is driven----
    Mr. Kim. That is because they are not asking for a binding 
element to be able to bind us to war.
    Admiral Harris. It is a policy change, Congressman. And I 
believe that there are three constituents that need to 
understand a policy of strategic clarity. One is the Taiwanese 
so they know. So if they know that, for example, that we are 
not going to go in, then they can then make the decision to 
either defend themselves or to capitulate to China. The Chinese 
ought to know, so they understand full well the costs of what 
will happen if they invade Taiwan. But most importantly, the 
American people need to know because it is your sons and 
daughters that are going to do the fighting and die, and you 
have the----
    Mr. Kim. Well, that is why I think that it is important 
that they have a say in this and that it is not just set by the 
executive branch.
    Admiral Harris. Well, I think they ought to know going in.
    Mr. Kim. But one question here. So I get it about the 
strategic clarity when it comes to sending a message to China. 
Are you also calling for strategic clarity in terms of Taiwan--
--
    Admiral Harris. Yes.
    Mr. Kim [continuing]. For instance, saying that we would 
never support unilateral----
    Admiral Harris. Yes.
    Mr. Kim [continuing]. Independence of Taiwan?
    Admiral Harris. Yes. I mean, strategic clarity goes both 
ways. We should ensure that we are clear with Taiwan with 
regard to the question of independence and with regard to the 
question of defending themselves so they are not a free rider 
on our statement of clarity with regard----
    Mr. Kim. So if they were to pursue, if Taiwan were to 
pursue formal independence, they would know that we would not 
be supportive of them----
    Admiral Harris. That could very well be part of strategic 
clarity.
    Mr. Kim. Let's play this out. Let's say, I thought Dr. 
Sisson kind of had a really interesting framework of this in 
saying that we should be assessing different frameworks of 
deterrence from that presumption of failure, you know, the idea 
that it could come apart. So let's presume that this falls 
apart. China is moving forward on Taiwan. Then we would have to 
come to Congress for an AUMF at that point; is that what you 
are asking for?
    Admiral Harris. Yes.
    Mr. Kim. Okay. So, honestly, it is not necessarily an 
automatic effort. It does not necessarily actually have the 
kind of clarity that is guaranteed in that way; is that 
correct?
    Admiral Harris. Right, right. I mean, there is no law. I 
mean, the only law that we have to guide us is the Taiwan 
Relations Act, which says that we would support a peaceful 
resolution across the strait but we would oppose a forcible 
resolution.
    Mr. Kim. Well, I just want to just point out here that I do 
want us to be very careful about what kind of red lines an 
executive branch can draw, especially when it is something that 
brings the full force of the United States military potentially 
into action and something that is, you know, this is something 
that I think all of us would agree is the most sacred and 
important duty that this body can be engaged in, and we are 
here to represent that voice of the American people. And I will 
be honest with you. When I talk to people in my district about 
China, about Taiwan, they are not tracking at all what 
conversations are often happening in this chamber.
    So if we really want to be thinking about this kind of 
posture and what kind of changes need to happen, I really urge 
us all to engage with the American people, bring them into this 
conversation, so we can think about what comes next.
    With that, I yield back.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
Indiana, Mr. Banks, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Banks. Admiral, welcome back. It is great to have you 
back in this hearing room. You retired 2018, so you were in 
uniform at least for half of the Trump Presidential term. Are 
you aware of any balloons that were spotted, at least in the 
first couple of years that President Trump was in office?
    Admiral Harris. I am not.
    Mr. Banks. Okay. Were you surprised by how the Biden 
administration responded to the balloon?
    Admiral Harris. No.
    Mr. Banks. Even in its lack of clarity to the American 
people about the early sightings, what it was, as it traversed 
our airspace?
    Admiral Harris. I was in Taiwan at the time, so I wasn't 
tracking it minutely. But I wasn't surprised with the response. 
I think it was a good response, to be frank with you. And at 
the end of the day, we were able to shoot this thing down with 
no risk to Americans and collect the intelligence from it. 
Plus, we were able to understand more about what it was doing 
up to the point of the shootdown.
    Mr. Banks. So you would have advised the President shoot it 
down later, not sooner?
    Admiral Harris. If I were in uniform, based on the 
information that I have now received from the media, I would 
have advised the President to wait until it was over water. 
Now, if it was a threat to the United States, if it was 
collecting information that could not be blocked that 
Representative Gaetz and I talked about, then that is a 
different issue, you know. If it presented an immediate threat 
to the United States, then it needed to be handled at the time 
of the threat. But I think this one is interesting because, 
again, it gave China a chance to exercise the diplomacy that 
China says that it has, but China failed to do that. So we 
should not be surprised by that, and I think, at the end of the 
day, the reality is that the Chinese were incapable of doing 
anything but blaming us for the balloon's demise.
    Mr. Banks. The Pentagon seemed to go out of its way to 
publicly inform the American people that three balloons were 
spotted while President Trump was in office. Were you surprised 
by the sort of political nature of the spokesman of the 
Pentagon telling us that, well, this happened under President 
Trump, so no big deal?
    Admiral Harris. No, I don't think he said no big deal. And 
he also said that there was another one in the Biden 
administration. So I am not surprised by it. I didn't know 
about it.
    Mr. Banks. It didn't strike you as the Pentagon playing 
politics?
    Admiral Harris. No. What it did strike me, though, was what 
General VanHerck said was, for some reason, he, as the NORAD/
NORTHCOM commander, wasn't aware of it either. So there is a 
disconnect there. He called it a domain gap, but there is a 
disconnect in our ability of the Defense Department, I guess. 
He is NORAD/NORTHCOM commander. There is a disconnect in our 
ability to understand these balloons. Henceforth, even more so 
the need to collect the balloon and then see the parts of it.
    Mr. Banks. Concerning, nonetheless.
    Admiral Harris. Concerning for sure.
    Mr. Banks. Yes. Fentanyl is now the leading cause of death 
of Americans my age. Almost all of it is manufactured in China 
and pushed over our southern border with the help of the 
Mexican drug cartels. What can we do about it?
    Admiral Harris. One, I think we need to pressurize China 
more and ensure that the world understands that China is behind 
the fentanyl crisis, not only in America but elsewhere. And 
then there is the enforcement piece at the point of entry into 
the United States, which is the Mexico and the cartels and all 
of that. But we should never give China a pass on the fact that 
they are behind the manufacture of this scourge across America.
    Mr. Banks. Do you believe it is a strategy on the part of 
the Chinese Communist Party to kill Americans?
    Admiral Harris. No. I have never thought of it in that way. 
You know, I just never have.
    Mr. Banks. It doesn't strike you, though, as curious that 
our biggest adversary is responsible for almost all of the 
fentanyl that comes in, flows in----
    Admiral Harris. I think it is concerning, sure.
    Mr. Banks [continuing]. And is obviously a national 
security issue.
    Admiral Harris. It is a national security issue.
    Mr. Banks. Yeah. Thank you. I yield back.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from 
Michigan, Ms. Slotkin, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Slotkin. Thank you. And thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I 
was walking down to this hearing, I got news of an active 
shooter in one of my high schools. I had a school shooting in 
my district almost exactly a year ago. Luckily, it was a false 
alarm, but I find it ironic that, in a conversation where we 
are going to be talking about protecting the homeland, this 
idea that we are not addressing school shootings in a real way 
in this body is at this point insane. But I will leave that.
    Admiral Harris, it is good to see you again. And, you know, 
the balloon, I think, certainly got people's attention in the 
homeland. People who don't think about national security very 
often were, I think, fascinated by this balloon coming across 
our country and particularly given that it covered a lot of our 
country. We don't know if it was for surveillance, if it was 
testing our reaction, if it was a mistake. But, certainly, in 
the wake of the Chinese government attempting to reset the 
relationship, it is hard to not interpret it as something that 
was pretty assertive. So can you give us very quickly, you 
know, we have speculated about what it was meant, but, if you 
were in uniform watching this happen, how would you advise the 
President on what to do as a signal, not shooting it down; 
we've talked about that, but as a signal of what the Chinese 
were trying to develop in the relationship?
    Admiral Harris. Yes. I think it--and good to see you again, 
too, by the way. Yes. The behavior of the Chinese here is the 
real issue. To me, as a former military guy and a poor 
diplomat, it is less the when we shot it down than the fact 
that the Chinese sent this thing across the United States on 
the eve of the Secretary of State's visit to China. I mean, 
that is just a huge issue, and it is not when we shot it down. 
It is China's fault, and this stuff that the Chinese Foreign 
Ministry is putting out, it was an errant weather balloon. I 
mean, they must make some pretty crappy balloons because there 
was an errant weather balloon over Colombia, South America, 
right now also. It must have come from the same batch.
    Ms. Slotkin. Yeah. Yeah. But you agree that, again, on the 
eve of this summit, that it is a pretty aggressive move for 
them to send this balloon, whether it got off course or not, 
and the way that they didn't notify us, right? If it was a 
simple mistake, you notify other countries when you have 
something floating over their airspace. So it is hard to 
interpret that as anything other than a pretty assertive move. 
I have no beef with the Chinese people, but it is certainly 
hard to miss the sort of aggressiveness on this.
    Also, on the homeland, I think a way that people have 
really understood the threat lately is on supply chain issues, 
and I come from a district, we have two auto plants that have 
been on again, off again for the past 18 months because we 
can't get a 14-cent microchip. Our economic security is 
connected to China, whether we like it or not. Representative 
Gallagher and I led a task force on defense supply chains to 
kind of pick up the rug and see what creepy-crawlies were under 
there in terms of dependencies on China by our military, which, 
of course, would be beyond ironic. In your time, were you at 
all focused or do you have any known dependencies on China that 
concern you for our military?
    Admiral Harris. For sure. And I was more focused on it 
after I retired. I was asked to give a speech at Purdue on 
energetics, which is the technical term for the stuff that goes 
boom and bullets and weapons and rockets, missiles. And the 
majority of the components of energetics comes from China or is 
controlled by the Chinese supply chain. That is shocking.
    Ms. Slotkin. Yes, that one we heard about, as well, in our 
supply chain task force, and, at one point, 90 percent of the 
stuff that goes boom in our weapons is sourced to China. And no 
one is missing the irony that, God forbid, we ever had to go to 
war, that they would control the supply. I think the Defense 
Department has tried valiantly to wean us off that, but that is 
a concern.
    And then, last, Dr. Sisson, it is great to see you. I 
think, again, sometimes Taiwan and the struggle over Taiwan or 
the debate feels very far away. Can you very briefly explain 
particularly what the Taiwan Straits means to the American 
public? If traffic through the straits was slowed or stopped, 
what does that mean for every person in this room and in my 
district?
    Dr. Sisson. Absolutely. And, first, let me say good 
thoughts and wishes to everyone in Michigan and particularly in 
the high school. You know, when you were asking about 
dependence, the word that came to my mind was ocean, the fact 
that how much transits through the Taiwan Strait and the 
dependence of effectively every part of our economy on 
shipping. That alone is a frightening amount of dependence. So 
if there is a contingency over the Taiwan Strait, I think the 
global economy basically comes to a screeching halt.
    The Chairman. The gentlelady's time is expired. The Chair 
now recognizes another Michigander, General Bergman, for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Bergman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And welcome to you 
both. I guess I am going to have to work--this is the first 
hearing here and I am going to have to work around Mr. Strong's 
head right in front of me to see you. So just don't move, Mr. 
Strong, and I won't have to move my firing position again.
    Mr. Chairman, the CCP has spent time, money, and resources 
greatly expanding their capabilities for espionage. We all saw 
last week, as we've talked about here unendingly, the spy 
balloon carrying thousands of pounds of equipment made its way 
across the United States. This was not an anomaly. For years, 
the CCP has tried to infiltrate every facet of American life, 
including our telecommunications infrastructure.
    Mr. Chairman, I would like to enter for the record a letter 
from the Competitive Carriers Association and other trade 
associations on the necessity of full funding to rip and 
replace untrustworthy equipment from our networks.
    The Chairman. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The information referred to can be found in the Appendix 
on page 97.]
    Mr. Bergman. Admiral Harris and Dr. Sisson, glad you are 
here. Broadband internet access is vital to ensuring the United 
States continues to grow technologically, economically, and I 
would suggest to you especially educationally. However, 
billions of dollars of Chinese equipment and services deemed to 
pose a threat to national security remain in place. While 
Congress has taken steps to fund the removal of this equipment 
from our networks, it will take time to complete.
    To the panel, that would be you all, how much of a risk 
does Chinese-made telecommunications technology embedded in our 
internet infrastructure pose to our national security?
    Dr. Sisson. Well, I am not able to put a risk indicator on 
it with any kind of confidence. I think it is certainly 
something, you are correct, that has received appropriate 
scrutiny and should continue to do so, not least because it is 
additional evidence that the CCP's primary objective is not to 
beat us in war, it is to beat us in everything else, and this 
is part of that and we need to be attentive to that strategic 
view.
    Mr. Bergman. Thank you. Admiral.
    Admiral Harris. Yes. I will say, sir, that I think it is a 
risk. When I was Ambassador to Korea, we worked with the Korean 
government to have them not include Huawei in their 5G 
infrastructure, and I think that we have achieved that 
objective in a variety of countries around the world. We can't 
ever forget that the Chinese intelligence law requires Chinese 
companies--requires them--to provide information to the 
government of the PRC when asked to do so.
    Mr. Bergman. Okay. Thank you. And going down a different 
road here, Admiral, the PRC maintains military ties with U.S. 
partners and allies such as Thailand, Philippines, Djibouti. 
How should the U.S. respond to counter the continuing expansion 
of PRC's military ties with U.S. partners and allies?
    Admiral Harris. Well, I mean, there is a number of ways we 
can and should do that. One is to continue to help our allies, 
partners, and friends. You mentioned Thailand. Thailand is a 
treaty ally of the United States, and they have a strong 
relationship with China. South Korea's only ally is the United 
States, but their largest trading partner is China.
    So it is possible to walk and chew gum at the same time. 
Countries are sovereign, and they act in their own enlightened 
self-interest, as we should. There is nothing wrong with having 
a trading relationship with China. We do, too. But China is the 
aggressor. I view them as the adversary. The National Security 
Strategy views them as a competitor, and so we have work to do 
in that regard.
    Mr. Bergman. Yeah. You know, and just to close that out 
with Djibouti because I was still involved in building Camp 
Lemonnier when we resurrected it into a really first-class 
place to deploy to. We know that we were there first, and the 
Chinese piggybacked on to what we were doing, and we know what 
our purpose is in the region. We are still not too sure what 
their purpose is in the region.
    And I see my time is about to run out. I am going to yield 
back 25 seconds, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. You are all right. I don't care what anybody 
says about you. The Chair will now recognize the gentlelady 
from New Jersey, Ms. Sherrill, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Sherrill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you both 
for being here today to testify in this important hearing. I 
have a broad question about the kind of good news and bad news 
in the INDOPACOM, and then I will turn it over to both of you 
to respond.
    As our National Defense Strategy states, conflict with the 
PRC is neither inevitable nor desirable. I think every member 
of this committee would agree that and share my belief that the 
most desirable outcome of our policy towards the PRC would be 
to deter them from taking aggressive actions to achieve their 
ambitions. But innovation and modernization are not the only 
tools we have. It is clear one of our main advantages is our 
alliances and security partnerships, and that is clear from the 
PRC's transparent efforts to undermine those partnerships and 
to use its influence and strength to coerce neighbors in the 
region.
    Just in the past month, the Philippines announced a 
landmark agreement that will expand U.S. military presence 
there and strengthen U.S.-Philippines military cooperation, a 
striking contrast to our relations of even 3 years ago when the 
previous Filipino administration threatened to end our Visiting 
Forces and Enhanced Defense Cooperation Agreements. In 2021, we 
inaugurated the AUKUS agreement, which will strengthen one of 
our oldest partnerships in the INDOPACOM AOR, and we are seeing 
Japan increase its defense spending by 50 percent.
    So, Admiral Harris, Dr. Sisson, could each of you give me 
your views of the best next steps to build on the successes of 
the last 2 years in restrengthening our partnerships in the 
INDOPACOM AOR and, conversely, where are those major fault 
lines in the region? What are the overt pressure mechanisms, 
economic or military, that the CCP can apply to our allies and 
partners and what are the covert behind-the-curtain mechanisms 
and how can we mitigate that risk?
    Thank you. And I will turn it over to both of you.
    Dr. Sisson. I think that is a very good description of the 
big-picture view of what is happening regionally. I think that 
the National Defense Strategy made an important stride this 
cycle by including the idea of campaigning, which is not 
unrelated to the agreements that you've just highlighted in the 
Philippines, which is to say a particular kind of presence and 
activity on the part of our military forces to be more 
available and vigilant in the surrounding waters, which is 
important to those allies and partners and other nations in 
that region.
    The other way and place that we can continue to create some 
space for these nations is through engaging with them on other 
sources of national power, like trade, primary among them. We 
have concerted diplomacy, and that should continue. And, 
ideally, what we will do best is listen to what they are 
telling us about what it is that they need and they want as 
they pursue, as the admiral put it, their own enlightened self-
interest.
    Admiral Harris. Thanks. I think that, as I have said 
before, diplomacy and diplomats matter. And the fact that we 
haven't had an ambassador to India in over 2 years matters to 
the Indians. We shouldn't be surprised if they are not as 
supportive of Ukraine as we would like them to be. It took us 5 
years, 5 years, to put an ambassador in ASEAN [Association of 
Southeast Asian Nations]. Do we think that the Southeast Asian 
countries didn't notice that? It took us 5 years to get an 
ambassador to Singapore and all the good things that Singapore 
does for us and for the joint force. And China fills those 
vacuums.
    You know, it took 18 months to get an ambassador to replace 
me. Philip Goldberg is fabulous. I mean, the Koreans certainly 
traded up, but they shouldn't have had to wait for 18 months to 
get one. It took 18 months to get Caroline Kennedy down to 
Australia. Australia. Eighteen months to get an ambassador to 
Australia, and that's on us, the United States.
    And some people say it is a manifestation of the divided 
political landscape in Washington, but I have said that you 
can't criticize the United States Senate if the White House 
doesn't nominate people in a timely fashion.
    Now, we are further along now than we have been. We are 
over 2 years in. But still there are holes out there that need 
to be filled, must be filled. It took us 3 years to get an 
ambassador to Ukraine, you know. And thank goodness that we had 
an ambassador in Russia, John Sullivan, that he agreed to stay 
over into this administration. He had to leave because his wife 
died. I'm so sorry about that. And so, right now, Russia is 
gapped.
    So that's on us in not taking diplomacy to the level that 
it needs to be, which affects our relationships with these 
countries, whether they are with us or against us.
    The Chairman. The gentlelady's time is expired. The Chair 
now recognize the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Jackson, for 5 
minutes.
    Dr. Jackson of Texas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you to our witnesses for being here today. Thank 
you, Dr. Sisson and Admiral Harris. Thank you for being here.
    And I will start off by saying I was a big fan of yours 
while I was on Active Duty, of your leadership, and thank you 
for your service.
    My question is--and this has been hit on a little bit by 
some of the other members here--but I have traveled extensively 
during my time in the military and also during my short time 
here in Congress. And I am also on the Foreign Affairs 
Committee as well. And one of the things that I have noticed is 
that, no matter where you go, China is there now. It just seems 
like places you wouldn't expect them to be, they are having a 
big influence and they are slowly winning people over, because 
they are making them dependent on them economically and they 
are offering military assistance, when needed, so on and so 
forth.
    And I know we have talked about this a little bit before, 
but my question for you is, with the exception of Japan and 
Australia, which we all agree is critical, what partner nation 
is a ``must-have'' right now that we're currently--you feel 
like we are overlooking; that we should spend more time in 
building a relationship with, you know, if things go south in 
this relationship?
    Admiral Harris. Yes. Thanks. I hope you are still a fan.
    Dr. Jackson of Texas. Yes, sir.
    Admiral Harris. All right. So, our treaty allies in the 
Indo-Pacific are critical. That is Australia, Japan, South 
Korea, the Philippines, and Thailand. I think we are 
overlooking--``overlooking'' is probably too strong a word--
that we could do more with our relationships with Malaysia and 
Indonesia. They are critical, Indonesia especially. It is 
large, the largest Muslim nation in the world, and that 
relationship is very important to us. So, I think that we can 
focus on that and do more in that regard.
    India, of course, is the key to the Indian Ocean and 
beyond.
    Dr. Jackson of Texas. Yes, sir.
    Admiral Harris. And I am glad our relationships with India 
is improving, are improving.
    Dr. Jackson of Texas. Yes, sir. Well, thank you, and I 
appreciate it.
    One of the things I heard when I traveled from a couple of 
different locations--you know, I was surprised to hear it more 
than once--and it mostly dealt with some of the South Pacific 
island nations, some of the smaller, not the bigger countries 
that we just were discussing. But one of the things I heard 
commonly was that these are people where the Chinese are 
actively courting them. They are coming in aggressively, 
whether it is building infrastructure, or whatever. They are 
building a relationship with these folks. And these are people 
that we have, typically, had a strong relationship with over 
the years.
    One of the things that I heard repeatedly was that they are 
getting mixed messages from the United States. Being that the 
military will come in, the U.S. military, and they will see the 
strategic importance of these partners, and they will promise 
them things and they will pledge support to them, so on and so 
forth, and then the State Department will roll in behind them 
and they won't have the same aggressive attitudes towards 
supporting them that maybe the military did.
    Do you see that? Was that a problem, and do you think that 
continues to be a problem? And what can we do to better get on 
the same page and instill confidence in these people that we 
will be there to help them?
    Admiral Harris. So, it is a problem. It was a problem. It 
remains one today. It is different constituencies in the U.S. 
Government have different viewpoints on what is important and 
what is not. That is probably human nature. But it has to be 
driven from the top. We have to have a unified--or clarified, 
rather--national policy on what to do with country A or country 
B or country C. So that instruments of national power, whether 
it is the military, whether it is diplomacy, whether it is 
commerce, trade, money, and so on, they align up behind the 
national policy. And that is the only way forward, in my view.
    Dr. Jackson of Texas. Yes, sir. Thank you.
    My last question is--and I was also surprised to hear this 
when I was there--but I was wondering, when you were PACOM 
commander, were there conversations, because I know there are 
conversations now, about NATO and what is NATO's role in all of 
this, you know, if China moves on Taiwan? Were there 
conversations going on back then? Was it significant? And 
should we be having more conversations about that?
    Admiral Harris. I think we should. You know, China is a 
global issue and not an Indo-Pacific--solely an Indo-Pacific 
issue. And I am probably going to travel to Italy this summer 
to speak to the NATO Defense College about some of these 
issues. We are negotiating that right now.
    Dr. Jackson of Texas. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that. 
That is all the questions I have, sir.
    I yield my time back.
    The Chairman. I thank the gentleman.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentleman, Mr. Ryan, for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Ryan. All right. Good morning both, and thank you for 
being here. I guess it is afternoon now. Good afternoon.
    So, I want to build on some of the themes you both talked 
about earlier in terms of asymmetric capabilities. And as we 
look at sort of ourselves versus our competitor or adversary 
China, my concern is that, as we continue to invest 
significantly in longstanding, quote-unquote, ``legacy'' 
programs, we see China being innovative and adaptive both in 
their acquisition and also their employment of these 
technologies. I won't use the ``B word'' that we have heard 
much throughout the day today, but even sort of reversion back 
to older technologies, employed in more creative and adaptive 
ways.
    So, as we think, coming into this year and our 
conversations, how should we be thinking about how to guide our 
Department towards more innovative strategies? You talked 
about, Admiral, our alliances as an asymmetric capacity. I 
agree, but are there other, particularly on the commercial 
technology or other emerging technology fronts, areas we should 
really focus on to enhance our asymmetric capabilities? To you 
both, please.
    Dr. Sisson. Yeah, thank you.
    I would point out, first, that what the PLA has been able 
to do is focus very excruciatingly closely on a particular 
regional concern and orient a lot of its modernization around 
contingencies, specifically, you know, in the Western Pacific, 
in its near seas, and specifically or especially, around 
Taiwan. Those ambitions are becoming more global, no question 
about it, but it is a little bit of an apples-to-an orange 
comparison when we think about what the U.S. military has to do 
and be responsible for.
    I think that, right now, there is good momentum in the 
Department--despite all of the programs of record, sort of the 
tyranny of the programs of record, and how acquisition and 
procurement flow that way--in terms of working on data and 
information, and the tools that we need to work with it 
effectively. So Deputy Secretary of Defense Hicks I think has 
been giving a lot of attention to the way the Department is 
thinking about and organizing around data and artificial-
intelligence-enabled technologies, both for the business of the 
Department of Defense, but also for the mission of the 
Department of Defense operationally. And I think that is 
absolutely to be encouraged by Congress with, you know, 
appropriate levels of oversight, interest, and investment.
    Admiral Harris. I have nothing to add.
    Mr. Ryan. The second theme that I have heard over and over, 
and would appreciate both your additional thoughts on, is 
resiliency. And I think these two questions are obviously 
interrelated. But specifically, within a cybersecurity and 
other C4I [command, control, communications, computers, and 
intelligence] domain, as we see, to your point, Dr. Sisson, 
specific focus on our capabilities in the Indo-Pacific region 
and being able to disrupt them, are there specific areas that 
we should be focused on ensuring resiliency around, both 
conventional and, again, more C4I-focused assets?
    Dr. Sisson. So, we absolutely need to worry about 
resilience conventionally in all of our systems. Because, 
again, our deterrent posture depends on the PLA not thinking it 
can have a blinding, sort of knockout strike that keeps us out 
of a conflict, should policymakers choose to engage in it.
    The place where the cyber concern really keeps me awake at 
night is in the nuclear domain, nuclear command and control, 
and we--not just in terms of resilience of our own, but also 
that we don't have conversations ongoing about limitations and 
restrictions on what cyber tools we can and cannot deploy on 
each other in that domain. And that is an enormously worrisome 
fact that I would like to see remedied as quickly as possible, 
because I do like to sleep.
    [Laughter.]
    Mr. Ryan. I have a 1- and 3-year-old. So, I don't sleep at 
all.
    But, Admiral Harris, anything to add there?
    Admiral Harris. Yes. I will just agree with what Dr. Sisson 
said and highlight the need to invest fully into our nuclear 
deterrent capability, the new nuclear deterrent capability.
    Mr. Ryan. Again, thank you both.
    And yield back the balance of my time.
    The Chairman. Okay. Thank the gentleman.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr. 
Gimenez, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Gimenez. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Soviet Union, and now Russia, they have had like a 
first-class military, but it was a third-class economic power. 
And they pose a significant threat to us. China, on the other 
hand, is a first-class economic power with ambitions to become 
a first-class military. Do you consider China to be a far 
greater adversary than the Soviet Union ever was?
    Admiral Harris. I do not at this point in 2023, because of 
the overwhelming nuclear capability that is resident in Russia. 
So, if you took the nuclear off the table, which you can't do, 
but if you took it off the table, then I would say today Russia 
is a third-rate military. And we are seeing that play out in 
Ukraine. I mean, they have lost--what--100,000 people, 12 
general officers, and thousands of fighting vehicles, and the 
like.
    But, at the end of the day, they have an enormous nuclear 
capability that we cannot discount. China doesn't have that 
capability today, but they are building to that. And we know, 
by the end of this decade, they will have that capability. 
Then, I would agree with you, I think I am agreeing with you, 
that China then becomes the leading threat in all domains. But 
today, because of the overwhelming nuclear threat, Russia 
predominates.
    Mr. Gimenez. Yes, I can agree with it. But I am taking 
away, I am looking now at conventional forces--all right--a 
conventional kind of war, that China will have a much greater 
capacity to wage a much more effective conventional war against 
the United States than, say, Russia.
    Admiral Harris. Could be. The Chinese military hasn't been 
tested in sustained combat operations since 1979, and that was 
really a skirmish with Vietnam. We have been in almost 
continuous combat for the last 20, 25 years. The Russians have 
been in combat, also, in Chechnya and Afghanistan and the like. 
So, theirs is a tested military and they are getting a severe 
test now in Ukraine.
    So, the jury is still out on how good the Chinese military 
really is. And I think they don't know how good they are, 
either.
    Mr. Gimenez. Dr. Sisson.
    Dr. Sisson. I think there is, obviously, no question that 
China can build stuff. So, if it is a question about, do they 
have industrial capacity and can they build a lot of ships, and 
so forth, we know that the answer is yes today, and will 
continue to be so into the future.
    The comparison with the Soviet Union I think is different 
to the extent that it is not just a matter, as you well know, 
of the industrial capacity and what the militaries can have. It 
is also force employment and what they can do. There is a trend 
towards overconfidence, as it turns out, especially in 
autocratic forms of government, about how those two things add 
up.
    The other part I would highlight is that, at this moment, 
we also have an opportunity to work on the CCP's intent and the 
way that they behave in the world, that we didn't have as much 
of an option with in the bad old days with the Soviet Union. We 
still have an awful lot of agency in the relationship between 
the United States and China, and that is where, you know, when 
I look at the ways and places it could go wrong, and turn China 
into the single most powerful adversary that the country has 
ever had, that is where I start to worry. Right now, they are a 
pacing challenge. I agree with the DOD's assessment. And we 
should do things to keep it that way.
    Mr. Gimenez. Yes. Well, I think it is emerging, though, and 
I can see in the future that they will probably--they could be 
a much more serious adversary.
    One final question on energy. Could energy be a weakness 
for China?
    Admiral Harris. For sure. But I think energy can be a 
weakness for us also.
    Mr. Gimenez. Okay. That is great, because my follow-up 
question is, we have the capacity to be energy-independent, 
obviously, but we also have the capacity to be energy-dominant. 
So, could we use energy as a way to try to keep them at bay?
    Admiral Harris. I think we can in the sense that they are 
going to get their energy either over land from Russia 
primarily or through sea lanes. So, we can dominate in the sea 
lanes to prevent them from getting the resources they need.
    But they also have a way to pressurize us, not on energy in 
the fuel sense, but in rare earths and other commodities that 
we depend on them really for the things that we need for our 
own society, let alone our weapons.
    Mr. Gimenez. My final--I know my time is up. My final 
thought is that that may be self-imposed on us by us.
    Admiral Harris. For sure.
    The Chairman. The gentleman's time is expired.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from North Carolina, 
Mr. Jackson, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Jackson of North Carolina. Thank you. And, Mr. Chair, 
if I may say, it is nice to meet you. It is a pleasure to serve 
with you. I haven't had a chance to meet you yet.
    This has been incredibly informative. I have taken several 
pages of notes.
    I would like to ask you both a question with respect to 
hypersonic weapons. I am going to give you my assumption, and I 
would like you to tell me how I am wrong.
    My assumption is that, were China to gain full capability 
or significant capability with respect to hypersonic weapons, 
that that would have a strategic-level impact on us, were we 
not to match it with defensive capability; and that 
specifically, it would impact our Navy's operational range of 
movement. That is my very basic assumption. Am I wrong about 
that?
    Dr. Sisson. You are not wrong that hypersonics could limit 
the scope of movement of the Navy, just as the current missile 
and rocket forces of the PLA can limit the movements of the 
Navy.
    Mr. Jackson of North Carolina. Can I follow up with you? 
Let's talk about the difference between the current missile 
capability, the level of deterrent that--the difference between 
the conventional missiles that exist and the hypersonic 
missiles that exist. My assumption has been that the hypersonic 
missiles pose a game-changing-level impact to the operational 
range of our Navy. Am I wrong? Is this an incremental 
difference between the existing missiles and hypersonic or is 
this really an exponential difference?
    Dr. Sisson. From what I have seen--and I am not a 
hypersonics expert; again, I am a strategist who studies 
deterrence--I have not seen anything that suggests to me that 
it would make a transformative difference in our ability to 
operate. So, the evidence is still probably early. The 
investigations are ongoing. Data is still being collected and 
gathered, and work is ongoing. So, I will reserve final 
judgment. But, from what I have seen so far, I don't see it as 
a transformation.
    Mr. Jackson of North Carolina. Well, I guess we are going 
to have to figure that one out, because there are some people 
who are presenting this as a transformational risk. I don't 
know. You have so much more expertise on this than I do. But it 
does sort of stand to reason that weapons that can beat any 
radar and beat any existing defense mechanism would pose a new 
and significant threat to our carrier groups.
    Dr. Sisson. What I would say to that is that there are a 
lot cheaper ways to overcome those kinds of defenses right now. 
And so, the fact of what becomes strategic is the ability to 
actually defeat them. Hypersonics doing it slightly faster than 
the traditional mechanisms at a much higher cost is what 
doesn't strike me as being especially transformative.
    Mr. Jackson of North Carolina. So, what you are saying is 
there is worse news than hypersonics; that there are other 
easier, cheaper weapons that could have game-changing impact?
    Dr. Sisson. And that has long been the case. So, that part 
isn't the new part. The new part is that hypersonics have 
entered into that conversation.
    Mr. Jackson of North Carolina. Okay. If we knew that an 
invasion was 3 years out, what are the first two things that we 
would do? Admiral, if you would?
    Admiral Harris. Well, if we knew that it was 3 years out, 
then we could probably relax some of the operational tempo of 
the forward-deployed units. But we don't know that, and we have 
to assume that they might attack tonight. And so, we have to be 
ready to fight tonight, as INDOPACOM says. If we knew it was 
going to be 3 years out, then we could invest now in some of 
the weapon systems that we might actually realize in 3 years; 
but we don't know that. And so, we find ourselves with weapon 
systems with longer lead times, and maybe a misapplication of 
investment, because we don't know.
    Mr. Jackson of North Carolina. Doctor.
    Dr. Sisson. Well, if we knew it was 3 years out, what I 
would suggest is that our leaders get on a phone and start 
talking right away to see if we can move them off of that 3-
year estimate. You know, I think, as the admiral has pointed 
out, the job of the military is to be prepared to fight 
tonight, if needed. And that wouldn't change between now and 3 
years from now. I still think that the United States has the 
most capable and combat-credible force in the world. If we 
couldn't find a negotiated solution on a 3-year time horizon, 
then, you know, we would be in bad shape for more than one 
reason, and we would have to figure out the best fight we could 
put forward.
    Mr. Jackson of North Carolina. Thank you very much.
    The Chairman. The gentleman's time is expired.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from South 
Carolina, Ms. Mace, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Mace. Thank you, Chairman Rogers and Ranking Member 
Smith.
    Admiral Harris, Dr. Sisson, thank you for being here today.
    As we all know, China continues to remain a global threat. 
We saw the imminence of some of that aggression just here last 
week, even in my home State of South Carolina. The Chinese 
Communist Party's economic, political, social, and security 
policies are reinforced, as we have seen over the last 20 
years, with increases in their defense spending and budget to 
one of the largest in the world. They are disputing the 
sovereignty of other nations in the East China Sea, the South 
China Sea, and the Line of Actual Control.
    And we have seen them over the years increasingly escalate 
their aggression. The timelines keep moving. Some of them keep 
moving up, which is of great concern to our Nation. We are a 
country who values freedom, sovereignty, and democracy around 
the world, and we know that Chinese Communist Party's values 
directly contradict our values, especially when it comes to 
human rights, free speech, and some of the most basic freedoms 
that our Nation and other nations were founded on.
    So, I just have a few questions this afternoon geared to, 
how do we strengthen our position and how do we deal with 
China's aggression? Admiral Harris and Dr. Sisson, either one 
of you can answer these questions.
    But the CCP has undertaken a significant, long-term 
military modernization effort. We have seen some of those 
timelines move up over the years. But in what areas, in your 
opinion, has it made the most progress? And then, in what areas 
have we seen them falling behind maybe some of their publicly 
stated goals?
    Admiral Harris. I will take the first stab at that.
    We have seen significant improvements in their command and 
control, you know, in how they fight--not what they fight with, 
but how they fight in terms of joint warfare and how the 
Chinese military, the PLA, the People's Liberation Army, have 
reorganized in order to fight in a more joint way. Whether they 
can do that or not, again, they have not been tested, but they 
have made moves in that direction.
    And equipment-wise, we have had a lengthy discussion about 
hypersonics. They are doing well in that. And they have 
improved their naval capability. They have two aircraft 
carriers now, building a third, and that is significant, you 
know. Their aircraft carriers in no measure can compare with an 
American aircraft carrier, but they are better than any other 
aircraft carrier in the region. So, that is not insignificant.
    And then, their nuclear enterprise, they will have a 
massive capability in terms of warheads by 2030.
    I will stop here.
    Ms. Mace. Dr. Sisson.
    Dr. Sisson. I think he is exactly right on all of those 
measures. The organization, the focus on information 
capabilities, cyber, command and control, surveillance, those 
are very important.
    I would highlight, though, when we think about--you asked 
about sort of areas where maybe things aren't going so well. 
The reorganization of the PLA was significant and I think very 
important. We have talked a lot about the balloon today. I 
think the alternative hypothesis to them being clever and 
probing, and doing those sorts of things intentionally, and 
being assertive, and the timing, is that they just sort of did 
it poorly; that there is an embarrassment hypothesis here, 
right? That they just weren't as coordinated and organized 
about the different elements of their own national government 
working together.
    So, I think, in addition to sort of some of the jointness 
concerns that the admiral mentioned, that this lack of sort of 
a coordinated effort, or at least the indications that it might 
be, are all suggestive that they have some ways to go there as 
well.
    Ms. Mace. Yes. And that leads, Dr. Sisson, into my next 
question really. We have seen that, like last summer, Russia, 
we saw news reports, their claims to hack our most high-value 
weapons systems. In 2020, there were 11 Federal agencies hacked 
by agents aligned with Russia and China. So, how do you see 
China's ability in cyber to compromise U.S. capabilities 
militarily and elsewhere?
    Dr. Sisson. So, I have no direct knowledge or insight. 
Those are some of the most closely guarded pieces of 
information----
    Ms. Mace. Yes.
    Dr. Sisson [continuing]. In the defense domain. So, I 
presume that they have a lot. I think that they have devoted a 
lot of time and attention to those capabilities.
    Ms. Mace. Uh-hum.
    Dr. Sisson. I think it continues to be sort of the Wild 
West in terms of all of the military domains, where we don't 
have a lot of good standing practices and, you know, the 
favored term of ``guardrails.'' A lot of the times, we don't 
exactly know what is going to happen when we release a piece of 
code into the wild, and probably neither do they. And so, I 
think that there is a lot to be concerned about in that area.
    Ms. Mace. What about AI? Any thoughts on AI and China's 
use? We know they put out a lot of research papers about AI. 
The Americans--we are all really hearing the advent of that 
technology. I don't have very much time left. But any quick 
thoughts on that?
    Dr. Sisson. Yes. I think the importance of AI is not only 
military, although that is important, but it is broadly 
societal, about being able to find the discoveries that bring, 
again, health, wealth, and well-being, and to being able to 
distribute them in ways that the CCP would prefer in terms of 
values and principles, as opposed to us. And that is where we 
need to make sure that we are keeping pace.
    Ms. Mace. Thank you.
    And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from 
Texas, Ms. Escobar, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Escobar. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for this timely and 
important conversation.
    And many thanks to our witnesses for sharing your expertise 
and your wisdom and your knowledge with us.
    This is a very timely topic. And I was taken, Dr. Sisson, 
by something that you mentioned in your testimony, when you 
said that we can ``encourage the government of Taiwan to adopt 
a defense concept that forces the PLA into suboptimal 
strategies and increases the battle damage Beijing would have 
to anticipate and accept.'' Can you elaborate a little bit more 
on this defense concept, please?
    Dr. Sisson. Sure. So, I think it is really taking advantage 
of the terrain of Taiwan and the kind of work that the PLA 
would have to undertake, either to do an amphibious kind of 
invasion or even a blockade. So, there are certain kinds of 
defense equipment that Taiwan can integrate into its defense 
concept. So, you can think about naval mines and other anti-
ship defenses, small attack, you know, fast-attack missile 
boats and those sorts of things that would really make it 
difficult for the PLA to move.
    The other thing I think is really fundamental is preparing 
for a whole-of-nation defense on the part of the Taiwan people. 
I was actually in Taiwan the week following then-Speaker 
Pelosi's visit. And, you know, the interesting element at the 
time in terms of the population wasn't that the PLA's 
histrionics around the island were particularly frightening. It 
is not as though the military activities conveyed to them 
information they didn't already have. But that it was met with 
this sort of collective sense of, yes, we know and we are going 
to continue to get ready. And more of that sensibility of 
preparedness and national resilience, along with the material 
sort of preparations that would require for a blockade, much 
less any sort of active resistance to an invasion, that is the 
kind of thing we can continue very much to support the Taiwan 
people with.
    Ms. Escobar. Thank you.
    And what would you say are the obstacles that Taiwan faces 
in order to make this defense concept a reality?
    Dr. Sisson. That is a really important question and element 
of it. Some of it is working with the defense forces there to 
change mindset, frankly, and to be willing to invest in some 
platforms that might not be their first choice, for any number 
of reasons.
    I think Congress, obviously, plays an important role in 
terms of streamlining the relationship in terms of the weapon 
support that we can provide through foreign military sales, 
which was a very heartening inclusion in the last NDAA 
[National Defense Authorization Act], and those sorts of 
things.
    I think that the other obstacle is something that Taiwan 
has to work with in terms of engaging beyond the United States. 
And if we can facilitate relationships with allies and partners 
and like-minded nations worldwide, I think that very much helps 
the Taiwan people's sense of confidence, stability, and is 
important to deterrence as well.
    Ms. Escobar. Great. Thank you so much.
    Admiral Harris, how can we better develop and integrate 
cyber talent at our colleges and our universities? I mean, I 
have long pushed that our military better collaborate and use 
that talent, the brilliance that we have at our institutions of 
higher learning, so that we can help close some of those 
capability gaps between our government and that of the CCP.
    Admiral Harris. Yes, it is a great question. Thank you for 
it.
    I think that we already have taken steps to improve that 
field of study, in the sense that we have now formal 
relationships between the Department and at least 10, or maybe 
a dozen, universities that are teaching now majors, major 
fields of study, in cyber and cyber warfare. So, that 
relationship is important.
    Certainly, it can, and maybe should, be expanded. But the 
fact that we have it at all I think recognizes the talent that 
is extant in the communities, that we are not receiving in the 
Department.
    Ms. Escobar. Are we moving quickly enough in that 
direction?
    Admiral Harris. I don't think you can move quickly enough, 
but I think we are moving, and that is the important thing at 
this point.
    Ms. Escobar. Thank you both very much.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
Alabama, Mr. Strong, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Admiral Harris, Dr. Sisson, this is the most informative 
committee hearing I have ever been in. Matter of fact, this is 
my first committee hearing to be in. So, I appreciate each of 
your time to review the threats of our homeland posed by the 
Chinese Communist Party.
    The National Security Strategy refers to the CCP as ``the 
most comprehensive and serious challenge to the security of the 
United States of America.''
    First, I want to briefly introduce myself to my colleagues 
present and those that are tuning in. My name is Dale Strong. I 
am a freshman Member of the 118th Congress representing 
Alabama's Fifth Congressional District. Prior to being elected 
to Congress, I served as chairman of the Madison County 
Commission in Huntsville, Alabama, more affectionately known as 
``Rocket City USA, the Propulsion Capital of the World.''
    Alabama's Fifth District is proud home to Redstone Arsenal 
and hosts many important Department of Defense equities, 
including Army Materiel Command, Army Space Missile Defense 
Command, the Missile Defense Agency, the Defense Intelligence 
Agency's Missile and Space Intelligence Center. While Redstone 
employs more than 46,000 people, my district also hosts 
thousands of contractors in Research Park, with more than a 
quarter of the top 100 defense companies in the world calling 
north Alabama home.
    I specifically want to thank my friend, now colleague, 
Chairman Rogers. I am proud to serve on this committee under 
your leadership and with each of the members thereof.
    I truly believe that America's finest days are still ahead.
    Admiral Harris, the FY23 NDAA called for a more robust 
procurement for missile defense systems for Guam. It also 
requires the Secretary of Defense to designate a senior DOD 
official to develop and deploy this system. Given your 
experience in the region, which DOD official do you believe 
would best suit--is best suited for this role?
    Admiral Harris. Yes, Congressman, thank you.
    At this juncture, I think the best DOD official would be 
someone expert in program management, because they have got to 
build up Guam in a joint way with the Army, the Air Force, and 
the Navy differing systems, different sensor packages into a 
unified ability to shoot down both air-breathing cruise 
missiles with a 360-degree threat sector or ballistic missiles.
    So, at this point, I think we need to focus on program 
management--probably a military officer, could come from any of 
the services, but more on the programmatic side. And then, a 
few years from now, after the system is in place, then I would 
think that we would want an operational officer to be in charge 
of it, and probably to stand up what INDOPACOM has called for, 
a Joint Task Force Guam.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you.
    What key elements should this missile defense system for 
Guam contain?
    Admiral Harris. Well, I mentioned some of them. You have 
got to deal with the 360-degree threat arc, assuming that the 
threat is from China, because it doesn't have to come just from 
the 180 to 360. It could come all around, given China's 
capabilities.
    It has to be able to shoot down air-breathers, cruise 
missiles, because you are in range of cruise missiles from the 
mainland of China into Guam.
    And then, there is the ballistic missile threat, the 
medium-range ballistic missiles that will come in. So, you 
know, you have got to have a system that can look high and low, 
and then, ultimately, we are going to have to deal with the 
hypersonic threat that we spent some time talking about 
already.
    So, in totality, it is a significant challenge, not an 
overcomeable one--I mean not one that we are going to not be 
able to overcome, but it is a significant challenge.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you.
    We have learned that the People's Liberation Army has a 
habit of describing its campaign of military intimidation 
against Taiwan as ``exercises.'' Recent exercises have included 
significant mobilization of units in mainland China, as well as 
nationwide movement of roll-on/roll-off ferries that would 
likely play a role in an actual invasion.
    Do you believe these exercises negatively impact the United 
States ability to protect--or to predict kinetic operations?
    Admiral Harris. Not at all. I think the exercises actually 
help us understand from an intelligence perspective the PRC's 
capabilities.
    Mr. Strong. Thank you.
    And then, referring back to comments earlier related to 
space launch earlier, you look--just in recent days, the United 
Launch Alliance has received their new American-made BE-4 
engine. ULA also has shipped their Vulcan rocket to the Cape 
for testing. I concur with you, America is more than able to 
make these rockets and we shouldn't be dependent on any other 
country.
    I yield back to the chairman.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
Pennsylvania, Mr. Deluzio.
    Mr. Deluzio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And, Dr. Sisson, Admiral Harris, thank you for being here. 
Admiral Harris, especially as a fellow Academy grad, Annapolis 
grad, it is nice to have you here. Appreciate getting the 
chance to talk with you my first hearing of this great 
committee.
    I had the great honor of serving as a surface officer at 
sea. I saw deployments in the Middle East and the Pacific, 
seeing some of these threats you were both speaking about 
today. I am lucky to represent a district with a significant 
number of those who have also worn the uniform.
    I share the concern here about the rise of China. That has, 
undoubtedly, become a threat to our national and economic 
security.
    Admiral Harris, my first question is for you. You advocate 
changing our policy to one of ``strategic clarity,'' as you 
describe it, when it comes to Taiwan and its defense. I would 
like you, if you would, please, to explain what strategic 
clarity means in layman's terms for my constituents in western 
Pennsylvania.
    Admiral Harris. Yeah. So, for me, strategic clarity means 
that we are clear as a nation that we would defend Taiwan if 
China attacks Taiwan to forcibly reunite with them. Our current 
policy has been in place for 44 years. It is strategic 
ambiguity. So that the question of whether we would defend 
Taiwan or not is unanswered. I think that policy has served us 
well, looking back, but I think the time to change the policy 
is now. The PRC has been nothing but clear. They have exercised 
complete strategic clarity on their intent with regard to 
Taiwan. I think it is important, as I mentioned before, to 
three constituencies.
    It is important for the Taiwanese to know whether we are 
going to defend them or not. So that, then, they can make the 
decision to either increase their defensive capabilities 
significantly or capitulate and join the Chinese, the mainland.
    The second constituency is the Chinese themselves. They 
need to know the cost of invading Taiwan.
    And the third constituency is the American people, because 
it is your sons and daughters that are going to do the fighting 
and dying if we defend Taiwan against an attack by China. We 
ought to know, the American people ought to know, that that is 
in the plans.
    They knew during the Cold War that we would potentially 
have to fight the Soviet Union on the Fulda Gap and the GIUK 
[Greenland-Iceland-United Kingdom] gap, and everywhere else. 
And they bought into that for the most part. And that question 
remains unexplored today because of this doctrine, this policy 
of strategic ambiguity.
    Mr. Deluzio. Well, Admiral, I appreciate your answer and 
explanation. And one piece I do agree with is that the sons and 
daughters of this country are the ones who bear the brunt of 
fighting, should it happen.
    And as you--essentially, strategy clarity would have us 
make a firm and definitive commitment. And I would ask, if you 
have a sense, what would we expect that sacrifice to be in 
terms of dollars, in terms of human lives in this country----
    Admiral Harris. Yes.
    Mr. Deluzio [continuing]. Should we have to rise to 
Taiwan's defense, as I think we would----
    Admiral Harris. Yes, I don't have a sense of the dollar 
value, but the cost in human lives would be significant.
    Mr. Deluzio. Admiral, thank you.
    Dr. Sisson, thank you as well for being here today.
    The district I represent, western Pennsylvania, is a place 
like many who have been hit economically by our trade imbalance 
with China, by the economic competition with the People's 
Republic of China, and their disregard for U.S. international 
laws and norms. I think Washington is waking up more and more 
to these costs. I am pleased that the Biden administration is 
fighting to bring more of our manufacturing and supply chains 
back home.
    My question, Dr. Sisson, to you is, how does this change 
our economic strategy to be more confronting of China's 
economic rise? How might that impact our military posture under 
the strategy of dual deterrence that I understand you think we 
ought to continue to support?
    Dr. Sisson. Quickly, I want to actually answer your last 
question about the costs----
    Mr. Deluzio. Please do.
    Dr. Sisson [continuing]. To be expected from any kind of 
militarized engagement. I think that the best estimate to be 
put on it is potentially catastrophic, right? If we really need 
to think about what it would entail, it would not be 
significant, it could be upwards of catastrophic, which is why 
I think moving off of a strategy of dual deterrence is 
especially dangerous, especially given that it is not 
necessary.
    To your other question about sort of the economic 
relationship and how these two domains might interact, I think 
it accesses, again, the idea that the entirety of the 
relationship between the United States and China has to be 
wholly strategic. It has to do with a grand strategy where the 
United States addresses our economic interests and negotiates 
bad behavior with China in that domain, just as much as we do 
its bad behavior in the military domain. What it is going to 
require is a lot of good coordination.
    Mr. Deluzio. Thank you, Dr. Sisson.
    Admiral, thank you as well.
    I yield back.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from 
Virginia, Ms. Kiggans, for 5 minutes.
    Mrs. Kiggans. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you to our witnesses for your testimony today.
    As a daughter of a Green Beret who served in Vietnam, as a 
Navy pilot and married to a Navy pilot, and the mother of now 
two midshipmen, this is an issue that is super important to me. 
And it is just a great honor to be in the room today with you.
    It is fitting that our first hearing is about the threat 
that is facing our country from the Chinese Communist Party. 
Under Xi Jinping, China has seen a rapid military buildup, 
stolen valuable intellectual property, increased economic 
warfare, and increased aggression, including a surveillance 
balloon that we all saw drift across our Nation last week.
    The CCP has demonstrated that it will continue to increase 
its influence and aggression far beyond the South China Sea. As 
you know, the Chinese military operates an overseas base in 
Djibouti. And a recent report from U.S.-China Economic and 
Security Review Commission stated that Chinese Communist 
Party's PLA is seeking sites for military installations in West 
Africa, a location that would give the Chinese military direct 
access to the Atlantic Ocean.
    So, what, if anything, can the United States do to 
disincentivize nations, such as those in West Africa, from 
allowing the PLA to operate military installations within their 
countries? And are we contrasting the effort by contracting 
with foreign strategic ports and countries ourselves?
    Admiral Harris. So, you know, we have to convince countries 
not to yield their sovereignty to China. And a case in point--I 
mentioned it before--is Hambantota Port in Sri Lanka. And we 
are seeing this weaponization of debt by the PRC against these 
countries.
    All we can do--well, not all--but what we can do and what 
we must do is to ensure that we share with them the information 
about the ramifications of falling under this debt diplomacy 
that China is known for. But every country is sovereign and 
they make their own independent decisions, just as we do. And 
that's why diplomats and diplomacy matter in those countries.
    Dr. Sisson. I think all of that is correct, and I would 
add, in addition to diplomacy, the purpose of diplomacy is to 
listen to what the needs and interests of those sovereign 
nations are. And I think we can do that without being 
overreactive to China's engagements in those areas. A lot of 
times, there are other options for those nations. China just 
underbids, and so wins contracts because it makes the most 
financial sense for the country at the time.
    A lot of that is actually self-harming for China because 
people are getting what they pay for and finding that it is not 
meeting their needs and their aspirations. And that word is 
spreading.
    And so, we can continue to provide an alternative, 
understanding that that alternative might not always be 
accepted by those nations, and that that is not always a 
terrible outcome in terms of the overall strategic 
relationship.
    Mrs. Kiggans. Along those same lines, I am just wondering 
about the level of confidence and trust that all countries in 
the world have, but especially our allies out there have. You 
know, we watched a chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. We have 
seen our response to Russia in the Ukraine. And we even watched 
the response of having a surveillance balloon drift across our 
country.
    So--and then, listening to you talk about just the slowness 
in filling the ambassador positions and this lack of strategic 
clarity we have, and, you know, diplomacy matters, and we have 
cancelled these diplomatic meetings. And I agree with you very 
much so.
    So, I just wonder if you both could comment about the level 
of confidence that is out there from not only our NATO allies, 
but other allies in the region.
    Admiral Harris. So, I will start by simply saying that I 
think the level of confidence in the United States is on the 
rise internationally, primarily, in the recent past, due to 
Ukraine. I think the American response, and bipartisan American 
response, to Ukraine surprised a lot of people. Most assuredly, 
it surprised Russia, and it galvanized our European and NATO 
allies to do more.
    So, we see Germany, for example, which has increased its--
or stated its intent to increase its defense budget to over 2 
percent, which we have been trying to do since NATO began, and 
now they are doing it. And so, there is that.
    And then, on the other side, is China's own bad behavior 
which is causing countries like Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, and 
others, to view China differently and to understand the kind of 
partner that China is. And I think that has gone a long way to 
moving countries away from the Chinese orbit into an orbit of 
free nations.
    Mrs. Kiggans. Thank you. Thank you very much.
    I yield back.
    The Chairman. The Chair now--I am sure I am going to 
butcher this name. The Chair now recognizes Ms. Tokuda from 
Hawaii.
    How did I do?
    Ms. Tokuda. You did great.
    The Chairman. All right.
    Ms. Tokuda. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Very good.
    Good morning. Good afternoon, Admiral Harris, Dr. Sisson. 
Thank you so much for being here on our very first hearing, as 
an incoming freshmen.
    You know, we have talked a lot about this balloon. So, I am 
not going to belabor the point, except to say that it was an 
unacceptable violation of our U.S. sovereign airspace, and I 
fully support the President's actions to shoot it down in a 
manner that did not put any U.S. lives or property at risk.
    What concerns me about this incident, though, was the 
whirlwind of outbursts here in the United States that 
highlighted just how tense the political leaders of our country 
are when it comes to the PRC and when they are involved. As we 
saw this past week, we now have an environment here in the U.S. 
where these types of incidences, intentionally or not, trigger 
rushed reactions amongst our political leaders to pressure the 
President and our military leaders to be tough on the PRC.
    What this committee should be worried about is what happens 
in the event of a more dangerous incident, especially as PRC 
assets in the South China Sea and Western Pacific act more and 
more recklessly. We saw it just last December when a PLA 
military jet came within 10 feet of one of our Air Force 
planes.
    As our relationship with the PRC grows more and more 
challenged, and our ability of our governments to cooperate 
whenever there is an incident continues to decline, how does 
this politicization of our relationship with the PRC, and the 
growing political pressure of oneupmanship, increase the risk 
of undesired confrontation and affect our national defense?
    Dr. Sisson. I think that is a good depiction of a lot of 
the reaction to this particular incident. And it is a 
mechanism, precisely as you state, to highlight how important 
crisis management is and being able to have connections at the 
top level of governments to make sure that these things don't 
spiral out of control unintentionally.
    I think part of the dynamic--and hopefully, we are coming 
to a little bit of, you know, sort of we had this sort of very 
heightened awareness sort of of a sudden about the PRC and the 
PLA's development. And now, hopefully, we can get our bearings 
a little bit more. Remember that we are starting from a place 
of great national advantage, not just militarily, but across 
all other domains. And we can return ourselves to focusing not 
being tough on China or worrying about being soft on China, but 
we can really just focus on being smart on China instead. And 
any event that can move us back to remembering that I think 
would be well used.
    Ms. Tokuda. Admiral.
    Admiral Harris. Yeah. I will just say that it is important 
to have these connections, either mil-to-mil, government-to-
government, diplomatic connections, with the PRC--arguably, 
more now than ever.
    And again, at the height of the Cold War, we had those 
relations, particularly mil-to-mil, navy-to-navy, with the 
Soviet Union, which helped diffuse a lot of issues that we had. 
We don't have that to the degree that we had with regard to 
China, and we need to work on that.
    And I think the Secretary of State's visit would have 
helped, and it was China's own, I guess you could call it their 
own goal in the sense of the balloon fiasco, which caused him 
to have to postpone his trip. Hopefully, it will get back on 
track and we will have those government-to-government 
relationships start anew with Beijing.
    Ms. Tokuda. Thank you. You know, just building up on that, 
Congress has really been playing the leading role in 
strengthening the U.S.-Taiwan relationship under the 
foundations laid out with the Taiwan Relations Act way back in 
1979. Going forward, more recently, we had the Taiwan Travels 
Act. We have had the TAIPEI [Taiwan Allies International 
Protection and Enhancement Initiative] Act just last Congress. 
We had the Taiwan Enhanced Resilience Act, although I would 
note we need to follow that up with an appropriation, if we are 
to take Dr. Sisson's recommendation seriously and assist them 
with FMF [foreign military financing] assistance as well.
    I strongly support these measures because they are 
appropriate responses to the PRC's unrelenting campaign to try 
to isolate Taiwan from the international community, and to 
unilaterally make the question of Taiwan's future secure in 
their interest.
    At the same time the PRC's government has made it clear 
that, with the moves that they have seen from the United 
States, it is still committed to retaliate and use force 
against the United States, especially when it comes to the 
issue of Taiwan.
    How can we continue to strengthen our relationship, on one 
hand, with Taiwan and deter the PRC from further military 
aggression against Taiwan, while at the same time preventing 
destabilization, if you will, of cross-strait and U.S.-China 
relations that heightens the risk of conflict between our two 
countries?
    Admiral Harris. So, that is higher math for sure, all of 
that. I do think that we must not, as I mentioned in my 
remarks, we must not allow the PRC to dictate our policy with 
regard to Taiwan or any other country. So, that is the first 
thing. And I think that a country like the United States, we 
can do both.
    [The information referred to can be found in the Appendix 
on page 101.]
    The Chairman. The gentlelady's time is expired.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from New York, Mr. 
LaLota.
    Mr. LaLota. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Admiral, Doctor, very good for you to be here.
    Admiral, we are fellow Academy grads, too, though you 
graduated in the year that I was born, sir. So, appreciate you 
being here.
    But, prior to coming to Congress, Admiral, I was a Navy 
ship driver; did three deployments in the Western Pacific. So, 
I couldn't have chosen a better witness to be at my first HASC 
[House Armed Services Committee] hearing, given our mutual 
service in the same area.
    Admiral, rather than present another question about the CCP 
spy balloon, I was hoping that you can share with us, based on 
your extensive experience in the Pacific, what you think China 
would do if the shoe was on the other foot. Specifically, what 
if the United States flew an unmanned aerial vehicle over 
Chinese territorial waters, its land? What would they do? What 
would go into their decision making if the shoe was on the 
other foot, sir?
    Admiral Harris. I think they have been clear about that. I 
think that they would shoot it down. So, the issue is, you 
know, it is the manned surveillance platforms that are flying 
in international airspace, that we recognize as international 
airspace, that the PRC doesn't. So, you know, we don't know 
what they are going to do in that regard. Hopefully, they won't 
take kinetic action against a Rivet Joint [RC-135V/W aircraft] 
or a P-8, or something like that, or a ship sailing in the 
Taiwan Strait, for example, or a FONOP [freedom of navigation 
operation] in the Spratly Islands. You know, I am hopeful and 
almost certain that the PRC wouldn't take kinetic action, 
because that would escalate to a completely different order of 
magnitude.
    But if we were to fly a surveillance balloon, if we were to 
fly a weather balloon over Beijing, they would probably shoot 
it down, especially now.
    Mr. LaLota. And why do you suppose that is, sir?
    Admiral Harris. Because we did.
    Mr. LaLota. And if it was weeks ago, prior to this 
incident, and we flew an unmanned vehicle over their 
territorial waters or land, what do you think their reaction 
would have been weeks ago?
    Admiral Harris. Potentially different. You know, this is a 
little bit of tit for tat. And so, you know, they have 
blustered about our gall at shooting down a weather balloon 
that went off course that was flying over sovereign United 
States airspace. I mean, if it was a weather balloon that went 
off course, why didn't they warn us, tell us, communicate with 
us? ``Sorry about that,'' you know. We do that with satellites 
that have fallen out of orbit. We communicate with them, they 
communicate with us, and, you know, we proceed on orders aside.
    But here, you have this surveillance balloon flying over 
sovereign U.S. airspace; errantly, coincidentally, over our 
nuclear sites and other key military facilities. And we are 
supposed to believe that this is accidental? I mean, it beggars 
imagination how crazy that is.
    Mr. LaLota. Sticking with China's reaction to our actions, 
rewind the clock 20 years ago. I understand that you were 
associated with the P-3 and EP-3 platforms.
    Admiral Harris. Right.
    Mr. LaLota. In April of 2001, there was an incident over 
the Hainan Islands, or around there, I think 70 nautical miles 
around it. Can you describe to us in this unclassified 
environment what you understood China's reaction to be then, 
given a similar incident, but----
    Admiral Harris. Yes.
    Mr. LaLota [continuing]. With the distinction of that being 
a manned aircraft?
    Admiral Harris. So, in a nutshell, there was an EP-3 flying 
a surveillance mission in the South China Sea. A Chinese 
surveillance jet--I mean, a countersurveillance jet flew 
alongside the P-3; got too close to it. You know, it was a 
miscalculation, an error, not an intentional collision. I mean, 
who would be crazy enough to, you know, fly their airplane into 
another in peacetime? And it impacted one of the engines on the 
P-3, on the EP-3, cut the jet in half. It crashed. The pilot 
died. And the P-3, then, had to do a crash landing, an 
emergency landing, on Hainan Island.
    Now, was that a smart thing to do or a dumb thing to do? 
Well, the week before, that very squadron had flown the 7th 
Fleet commander to Beijing. Treated well; you know, happy to 
have him there, and all of that. So, the crew thought, well, 
yeah, we are friends with China. And so, they had an emergency, 
you know, a legitimate emergency. And there was a runway, the 
closest runway. So, they elected to crash land the EP-3 on that 
runway. Right decision? Wrong decision? It is not for me to 
say. But that is what happened.
    Mr. LaLota. Thanks for your insights, Admiral.
    I yield back.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
North Carolina, Mr. Davis, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Davis. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. And we appreciate 
you convening us today, as well as Ranking Member Smith.
    And to the admiral and Dr. Sisson, thank you so much for 
being with us.
    I want to start with a question, Admiral Harris. You noted 
in your testimony that China's military buildup could soon 
challenge the U.S. across almost every domain. My question is 
to you, if there is one development that they have made that 
concerns you the most, one single, what would that be?
    Admiral Harris. Cyber.
    Mr. Davis. Cyber. Okay.
    And shifting to Dr. Sisson, your prior reporting states 
that China's capability of threatening the U.S. military 
command-and-control systems and the United States domestic 
telecommunications systems creates vulnerabilities on a scale 
that the United States has not experienced since the end of the 
Cold War. And my question for you would be, could you 
prioritize what the United States should do to harden domestic 
infrastructure in anticipation for the most sophisticated 
methods of attack?
    Dr. Sisson. Well, I can't give specifics about the 
mechanisms of doing it. I do know that precisely what you said 
at the end is the absolute priority: that we need to focus on 
resilience and hardening all of our command-and-control and 
information systems, both operationally for the Department of 
Defense, but also, domestically, here at home for our national 
critical infrastructure.
    And I think that is a place where--that sort of gets a 
little bit less attention than the military domain. But we need 
to be attentive to the fact that the CCP could in any 
contingency choose to try to access another of our sources of 
national power, which is the hearts and minds of the American 
people, and impose some hardship here that we haven't had to 
experience for a very long time. And so, the point is that we 
need to work on creating that resilience and hardening the 
infrastructure, as you say, militarily, but also here 
domestically in our critical infrastructure as well.
    Mr. Davis. Super.
    And the last thing I have here is, we have covered a lot of 
ground today. And this is, you know, my first hearing, and I 
really appreciate being part of this hearing and look forward 
to future hearings.
    How would you summarize and prioritize--I mean, we have 
talked a lot today--how the United States should engage in 
strategic competition with the Chinese Communist Party, while 
simultaneously reducing the risk of miscalculation and 
escalation that could lead to conflict?
    Admiral Harris. So, we all hope for competition and not 
war. But we have to be, you know, based on my background, we 
have to be ready to do the latter, even as we exercise the 
former.
    I have characterized the PRC as an adversary already. They 
view us as the enemy. They view us as an adversary. And to be 
naive, to operate in the naive hope that we are all going to be 
friends in the end, is dangerous. That is the most dangerous 
thing, and that itself leads to instability.
    So, if we go in with eyes wide open, and we are willing to 
engage diplomatically, and they are willing to engage 
diplomatically, then I think we can coexist in a world of 
strategic competition that doesn't rise to the level of armed 
conflict.
    Dr. Sisson. The admiral makes some very good points. We do 
need to be ready militarily, and yet, this is a strategic-level 
competition. And the best thing we can do is to remember that 
this is not a military competition. The military is part of it, 
but it is a strategic competition with a military element.
    And what that means is that we get to focus on reinforcing 
and extending the strengths and advantages that we have long 
had as this country. We are not building creativity and 
productivity, and a vibrant economy, and appealing 
universities, from whole cloth. We already have those things. 
And we should not lose sight of that. We should have confidence 
in them. We should look to reinforce them wherever and however 
we can, and we should retain that air of calm and confidence, 
as we engage in the complicated nature of the U.S.-China 
relationship.
    Mr. Davis. Thank you so much.
    Yield back.
    The Chairman. I thank the gentleman.
    The Chair would like to announce that we will be making a 
hard stop at 1:30 for two reasons. One, votes are going to be 
called at 1:30, and the admiral has a plane to catch.
    With that, Mr. Alford of Missouri is recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Alford. Thank you, Chairman.
    Thank you, Admiral Harris, and thank you, Dr. Sisson.
    I am honored to represent two very prestigious military 
bases in our district, that being Whiteman Air Force Base, home 
to the B-2 stealth bomber, and, of course, Fort Leonard Wood 
that trains more than 80,000 military and civilian personnel 
each year.
    The recent Chinese surveillance balloon that flew unchecked 
over our U.S. airspace in my home State of Missouri, and 
directly over Whiteman Air Force Base, really reconfirmed what 
we already knew--that China is our number one national security 
threat. We cannot allow--we cannot allow--China to walk all 
over us and outpace us militarily. When we project weakness on 
the world stage, as the Biden administration has done, China 
and other adversaries will take advantage, and they are.
    I am extremely, extremely concerned about the lackluster 
approach the Biden administration has utilized with our Armed 
Forces. We are not moving fast enough when it comes to ramping 
up our military capabilities to meet the threats of today and 
the future. Heck, we are more concerned about which pronouns we 
are going to use than we are defending our great Nation.
    Currently, we have the smallest and oldest bomber force 
since post-World War II, and China has surpassed us with the 
world's largest navy. I hope--I sincerely hope--that especially 
after the Chinese balloon fiasco that we wake up as Americans, 
as a nation, to accelerate, where we can, the necessary 
military assets to deter China.
    And now my questions to each of you. I will start with you, 
Admiral. Do you agree with General Minihan's assessment; will 
we be at war with China within 2 years?
    Admiral Harris. No.
    Mr. Alford. Why not?
    Admiral Harris. As I have said before, I am less concerned 
about a date certain than I am of the readiness of the force to 
respond to any contingency that arises anytime.
    So, when I was in uniform, I said that the decade of the 
2020s is the decade of danger. General Minihan said 2025. I am 
not sure what he based that on. However, you know, he is privy 
to current intelligence that I am not. So, you know, it 
behooves us to consider that. Admiral Davidson said 2027. And I 
fall back to the 2020s as the decade of danger.
    Mr. Alford. Okay. So, 2 years, 4 years, 5 years, 7 years. 
Are we ready?
    Admiral Harris. Well, that is the question. I mean, I think 
we are. I think we can respond today to any threat from today's 
PLA, the People's Liberation Army. If we don't continue to 
invest and innovate, then, in 5, 6, 7, 8 years--pick a 
timeframe--we might not be able to compete levelly with the 
joint force across all domains, and that is the concern.
    Mr. Alford. Dr. Sisson, what should we do now to 
effectively deter China from invading Taiwan?
    Dr. Sisson. I think the good news is that our strategy of 
deterrence is in good standing and is working well. I think we 
should remember that and we should do things to reinforce it. 
Again, we need to reaffirm for both sides our adherence to the 
One-China Policy.
    We need to coordinate and collaborate with Taiwan on their 
defense concept and getting them to be as prickly of a 
porcupine as they can be and ready to be prepared and resilient 
in the event the worst happens.
    And then, internally, here in the United States, I think we 
need to do some planning, planning, planning. We need to have 
coordinated across the interagency any number of options that 
we could use to respond quickly and effectively, if we saw 
indications and warnings that we were concerned about emanating 
from the PLA.
    Mr. Alford. Admiral, back to you. What should we do if 
China launches another balloon towards U.S. airspace?
    Admiral Harris. Well, we need to assess it and to see what 
kind of balloon it is. And if it is a threat, and if we can't 
mitigate that threat, and it is over the United States, we have 
to destroy it.
    Mr. Alford. What are the top three actions the DOD should 
take now to deter China from building islands in the China Sea?
    Admiral Harris. It is too late.
    Mr. Alford. Further islands, more islands? More power 
there?
    Admiral Harris. Well, I mean, short of kinetic operations, 
then we would have to apply soft-power measures, including, 
potentially, threatening China's economic strength, 
strengthening them--or challenging them in the financial 
sectors, and things like that.
    But they have already built six or seven major military 
bases----
    The Chairman. The gentleman's time is expired.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from California, Mr. 
Panetta, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Panetta. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Dr. Sisson.
    And you get to choose now whether or not you go by admiral 
or ambassador, I guess, is that correct? For this session, I am 
going to call you admiral.
    Admiral Harris, good to see you.
    Prior to the spy balloon being floated over the United 
States, I think we could say that we saw a few months of what I 
would call detente--with the meeting in Bali between Biden and 
Xi and, yes, a planned Secretary of State visit to China this 
last weekend.
    However, with that clumsy miscalculation by China and 
spying that we know goes on of the United States, what I think 
we need to be wary of is, obviously, incidents like this 
leading to escalation. Now, during the Cold War with the Soviet 
Union, after it took almost going to the brink of a nuclear 
war, we had agreements to contain hostility, to de-escalate. 
However, I am not sure if we have that right now with China.
    Are there better ways to communicate? Are there better ways 
to mitigate these types of risks during such a crisis as we 
just had? Are there better guardrails that we could put in 
place to prevent escalation?
    Admiral Harris. Yeah. So, there are some guardrails, some 
agreements, mil-to-mil, military-to-military, with the PRC, 
including something called CUES [Code for Unplanned Encounters 
at Sea], C-U-E-S, which is a navy-to-navy agreement for 
interactions on the high seas. So, we have some limited 
agreements like that.
    In the case of the EP-3 crash, which we talked about 
before, you know, those things happen in a flash. So, there is 
no time for diplomacy during the conduct of the event itself. 
Then, diplomacy kicks in afterward to try to resolve it and 
mitigate it.
    In the case of the balloon, I mean, we had 7 or 8 days for 
diplomacy to work, and China could have stepped forward at any 
time in that and said, ``Hey, this is ours. This was a bad 
move. We won't do it again. Sorry about that. We'll help you 
bring it down,'' or something like that. But they did not take 
advantage of the window, a week window, 8 days, 7 days, to do 
that. So, that is on them.
    And I think that the U.S. Government did reach out to the 
PRC and gave them ample opportunity, which is why you want to 
extend this thing out, stretch it out for as long as you can--
until it went over water 8 days later, 9 days later, whatever 
it was, and they shot it down.
    Mr. Panetta. And besides the brief avenues that you 
mentioned, Dr. Sisson, is there anything else? Any other 
avenues for this type of communication?
    Dr. Sisson. My view is that the U.S. Government should 
always pursue direct communication at the highest levels of 
government, especially in conditions like this. The worst-case 
scenario is where communication happens through military action 
and not through phone lines, and now, Zoom screens, I guess.
    Mr. Panetta. Okay. Moving on to my next topic, Admiral, you 
talked about Taiwan being the number one democracy, at least in 
the Pacific. And as we all know, living in a democracy, 
elections have consequences. And it seems like the DPP's 
[Democratic Progressive Party's] extended focus on China sort 
of failed to connect with the Taiwanese people, as evidenced by 
the last election. In that KMT [Kuomintang], obviously, which 
has a warmer relation with China, if it makes gains and 
actually has significant wins in the 2024 elections, what would 
be the consequences of our deterrence capabilities in dealing 
with a KMT majority?
    Admiral Harris. Yes, so a great question.
    I met with the KMT chairman last week in Taipei. I believe 
that, you know, it was the Cato Institute that called Taiwan 
the freest nation in East Asia. And I think that a definition 
of free and democratic is when you have a successful handover 
of power. And they have had several now since they became 
independent. They haven't been independent that long.
    But I believe that we could work with the KMT. I don't 
think the KMT is going to roll over on China, just like I don't 
think the DPP is going to declare independence. They are both 
viable, strong parties in Taiwan that have the best interests 
of the Taiwanese at heart, not the PRC.
    Mr. Panetta. Dr. Sisson, 20 seconds.
    Dr. Sisson. I agree entirely with the admiral.
    Mr. Panetta. Outstanding.
    Thanks to both of you.
    I yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
Florida, Mr. Mills, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Mills. Mr. Chairman, thank you so much.
    Admiral Harris, Dr. Sisson, thank you.
    You know, I hear us still talk a lot about the definitions 
of warfare, and I think that that is something that needs to be 
redefined or re-thought about. And I really appreciate Dr. 
Sisson's stance with regards to strategy, as well as for 
resilience.
    You know, my whole thing is that, while the U.S. may not be 
at war with China, I would argue that China has long since been 
at war with the U.S. from an economic, a resource, and a cyber 
warfare perspective.
    I think that we also have to identify the geopolitical 
alliances that have occurred with regards to Russia, China, 
Iran, and North Korea. You know, the entire incursion that we 
have seen in this war in Ukraine has a lot to do with Chairman 
Xi's One Road, One Belt Initiative; his desire to expand the 
Eurasian border; take Africa; take Oceania; recreate this 
maritime Silk Route, while dominating ports and railways, as we 
have seen with the development in Djibouti.
    I think that, ultimately, what we are looking at here is a 
real need to defend our maritime shipping lines, because their 
ultimate goal will be to eliminate the U.S. dollar as a global 
currency, while cutting off the Western Hemisphere supply chain 
with the Horn of Africa, the Mediterranean, Red Sea, Black Sea. 
And that is why areas like Moldova, as you mentioned, are 
certainly key areas. It does not fall under Article 5 with 
NATO.
    I would say, however, that one of my colleagues, Carlos 
Gimenez, Representative Gimenez, had talked about the 
importance of energy, and I agree with this. I think that if we 
wanted to actually go after China, we would have to look at the 
economic strains that we would put on them by stopping 
reliancy, but also by understanding that the true global 
currency will be energy.
    We are seeing where he is exploiting the strains between 
ourselves and the KSA [Kingdom of Saudi Arabia] with regards to 
OPEC [Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries] and 
trying to eliminate or replace the petrodollar to the 
petroyuan, petroruble, as a way to throw us into 
hyperinflation.
    But we are also watching Russia go ahead and start 
utilizing the communist agendas and push things like Chavez in 
Venezuela, looking at Petro in Colombia, but also the mainland 
Chinese in the Darien Gap, who are actually printing fentanyl.
    Now, in knowing this, and knowing that we are being 
outpaced--we are being outpaced militarily; we are being 
outpaced economically--I believe that resilience/readiness is 
really a key here, not pronouns and DEI [diversity, equity, and 
inclusion], as it is being defined.
    I would say, however, Admiral Harris, that one of the 
things you talked about was this surveillance balloon. And 
while I agree that it was good to go ahead and to shoot it 
down, I also view this as a vulnerability assessment by the 
Chinese in how we will react; where our actual mitigating 
measures will be; when we will identify, and how; at what 
altitudes we will identify.
    And I think that allowing it to come across the United 
States was a huge mistake and a failure. If the idea was to 
shoot it down in a safe area, then we could have done that over 
the Pacific. And that would have been something where they had 
already violated our airspace.
    I also noted that you said that you did not think they were 
printing fentanyl with the intent to kill Americans, and I 
disagree with that strongly. I think that this is a multi-
pronged strategic attack that does not involve kinetics. And 
while we do need to get involved in the kinetic element for 
readiness, I think that the economic, resource, and cyber 
warfare has long been launched.
    Could you please say once again what your stance is in 
regards to those two?
    Admiral Harris. Yeah. So, I disagree with you, Congressman, 
on both. I do think that shooting it down over the Atlantic was 
the appropriate response. And I don't think that China is 
creating fentanyl with the express purpose of killing 
Americans.
    Mr. Mills. But you don't think that that is one of the 
things that they take into a factor of that? This is actually a 
focus now by the Americans. Yes, you have utilized the term we 
can walk and chew bubble gum, and I do understand that, but I 
have a hard time of understanding that this is just some type 
of an economic advantage, as opposed to something which is 
intentional and killing more Americans than any conflict that 
we are currently in.
    So, with regards to the spy balloon, I will ask once more, 
you still feel, though, that allowing it to transverse across 
the entire United States, going across areas that even civilian 
aircrafts are not allowed to go across, was a correct approach 
to this incident?
    Admiral Harris. I do, Congressman, in this instance, 
because of the danger that shooting it down over the United 
States could have presented. I mean, it was----
    Mr. Mills. But we could have shot it over the Pacific, is 
that not correct?
    Admiral Harris. Only in territorial waters of the United 
States.
    Mr. Mills. As in when it came across around the Aleutian 
Chain area or as it----
    Admiral Harris. Right. If it is in territorial waters, then 
it is flying over sovereign airspace.
    But I don't know if--when we first detected it. I mean, 
according to General VanHerck, we did not detect, he did not 
detect, as the NORAD/NORTHCOM commander, at least four previous 
balloon transits of parts of the United States--Florida, Texas, 
Guam, and Hawaii.
    The Chairman. The gentleman's time is expired.
    Mr. Mills. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from 
Nevada, Mr. Horsford, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Horsford. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I want to 
thank you and the ranking member. I am looking forward to 
working with all of my colleagues, again, during this 118th 
Congress. And I know that this is a committee that is known for 
its bipartisan work, and I think that that should be evident in 
how we address the threats coming from the Chinese Communist 
Party.
    I also want to thank our witnesses for testifying today. 
Your expertise and insight have been informative, as we 
consider the threat that the Chinese Communist Party plays in 
our national security.
    I would be remiss not to mention the events that have 
transpired. Last week, Americans experienced a symbol of the 
national security challenge we in this committee have been 
dealing with for years--the Chinese Communist Party's disregard 
for the United States sovereignty--when a surveillance balloon 
flew over the U.S. airspace. President Biden and Secretary 
Austin took decisive action to protect our national interest, 
while also assuring that American lives were not disrupted or 
harmed.
    Dr. Sisson, in your September 2022 report on ``Managing the 
Risk of a U.S.-China War,'' you explained how, if the United 
States is to maintain a constructive role in preventing the 
outbreak of a cross-strait war, it will need to implement a 
strategy to deter Chinese aggression that is consistent with 
U.S. interests and capabilities. Can you expand on what that 
would look like, please?
    Dr. Sisson. Certainly. I think we are in good standing with 
the way our strategy currently does that today. As you know, we 
have a strategy of dual deterrence across the Taiwan Strait, 
which makes sure that the PRC doesn't think that it has a free 
pass and the Taiwan government doesn't think that it has a 
blank check.
    And we support that by continuing to provide adequate 
defense capabilities, in keeping with the Taiwan Relations Act, 
to the defense forces of Taiwan. We continue to make sure that 
the United States military is capable, combat-credible, ready, 
well-equipped, well-positioned to respond in the case of any 
indications and warnings of a contingency. And we continue to 
support the Taiwan people in other unofficial ways by reducing 
pressures on them to be isolated from the international 
community, and to support the resilience of the Taiwan people.
    We need to continue to do all of those things, while we 
address China as a strategic challenge. And I am confident that 
we are in a good position to do that. We have an enormous 
number of national strengths, and we are going to continue to 
rely on those. We have the asset of allies and partners who are 
like-minded in countering PRC coercion. And these are all 
attributes that we should take full advantage of.
    Mr. Horsford. Thank you.
    And just to restate again, what problems do you foresee us 
needing to solve in order to compete with the Chinese Communist 
Party militarily?
    Dr. Sisson. I don't think we have problems to solve per se. 
I think we have areas with opportunities to enhance and to 
develop and to grow. I think that, as the competition continues 
to have highly technological elements, when we talk about 
resilience in terms of cyber defenses, when we talk about 
artificial intelligence and its societal implications, those 
are areas where we are going to need to take a long, hard look 
at how we develop talent and how we attract talent here 
domestically.
    And I mean that from everything from, you know, early 
childhood education all the way through to visa programs. And 
so, there are ways and places in which we can reinforce the way 
that our system has historically operated to be creative, 
generative, and highly productive.
    Mr. Horsford. Thank you.
    Before I close, Mr. Chairman, I just want to express that I 
think it is important for every member of this committee to use 
responsible language when referring to the People's Republic of 
China and the Chinese Communist Party. While there are valid 
reasons to critique the actions of the Chinese Communist Party, 
it is important that we do not conflate the actions of a 
political party and the Chinese people.
    These anti-China sentiments can lead to an increase in 
xenophobia and racism towards the broader Asian community, 
which we saw during then-COVID-19 pandemic, when an increase of 
339 percent anti-Asian hate crime was reported last year 
compared to the year before. So, as we continue our work in 
this Congress, we, as Members of the House, have a duty to use 
responsible language while also holding the Chinese Communist 
Party accountable.
    Thank you.
    The Chairman. The gentleman's time is expired.
    The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. 
McCormick.
    Mr. McCormick. Thank you so much for sticking around for 
me. I really am excited to have you both here.
    You mentioned earlier, Dr. Sisson, that the Marine Corps 
had reorganized, and I think you implied that a lot of that was 
with the eye towards China and the island area. Understanding 
the history of the Marine Corps, and being a Marine myself, and 
being on some MAGTFs [Marine air-ground task forces], my only 
concern is a lot of times we prepare for the next war, but we 
don't know what the next war is going to be.
    Like the admiral said, we hope we don't go to war with 
China, and we don't expect to go to war with China. If, 
strategically, we have a difference between the way we prepare 
to deploy our weapons systems, whether we be in a proxy war 
where Taiwan has to defend itself against China, much the way 
that Ukraine did against Russia, or if we get in direct 
conflict, which we all agree we don't want to have, and we hope 
we don't have, my question is, why prepare the Marine Corps for 
that sort of war, when we know that almost never have we 
predicted the next war? Why not keep with that same fluid MAGTF 
model that allows us to fight any clime, any place, like the 
greatest fighting force that we have always been?
    Dr. Sisson. So, I think you are right to note that we often 
get predictions about war wrong. Full stop. We predict which 
ones are going to happen incorrectly. We predict how they are 
going to go incorrectly. We predict their costs and 
consequences incorrectly. And so, that is all very well-taken.
    My interpretation of what the Marine Corps has done in 
terms of its reorganization and orientation is be directly 
responsive to the National Defense Strategy. And so, I have a 
hard time faulting the Marines for that choice, given that that 
is the direction that they have been given.
    I think the points that you make are well-raised at the 
strategic level, and that is a conversation to be had. But, to 
the extent that General Berger has been responsive to the NDS 
[National Defense Strategy], I have to give him high marks.
    Mr. McCormick. Okay. Well, I will look forward to that 
conversation.
    Admiral, likewise, in the area of our biggest concern with 
an ally that's--I consider them an ally--of 1.35 billion 
people, and a large economy, right next to China, which being 
India, I understand the political sensitivity of doing more 
tactical engagement with a country like that, but I don't 
understand why we don't engage more in arms sales and, 
actually, military exercises, and stronger economic ties with 
an ally that really sees the world similarly to the way we do.
    Admiral Harris. Yeah, it is a great question. I addressed 
it when I was the PACOM commander. I spoke at the first three 
Raisina Dialogues calling for a resumption of the Quad, and all 
of those things.
    But just because we want to exercise more with India, just 
because we want to sell them more military hardware, doesn't 
mean that the Indians want to exercise more with us or buy our 
military hardware.
    The have some foundation--we call them foundation 
agreements that prohibit them from buying directly from us. And 
we had to overcome some of those. I didn't state that right. 
Not that those foundation agreements prevented them from buying 
from us; the foundation agreements prevented us from selling 
certain equipment to them; for example, communications gear, 
because of their rule sets. So, we overcame a lot of those, and 
now, we are selling a lot more military hardware to India. They 
have the largest C-17 fleet outside of the United States, for 
example. And all of that is good.
    I think that there is great promise and great potential in 
working with a country of 1.35 billion, which is now the 
world's most populous country. So, it is important that we do 
more with India. It is important that we get an ambassador 
there, so that a Senate-confirmed ambassador representing the 
President would be in place. But we haven't had one now for 
over 2 years.
    Mr. McCormick. Yes, I couldn't agree with you more. I think 
that is something we need to focus on.
    Likewise, do we have the industrial ability to ramp up to 
supply, for example, Australia and India, and other allies, 
with the necessary equipment to fight the next war? Because, 
right now, I feel like, especially in our shipbuilding 
capacity, we are severely lacking.
    Admiral Harris. For sure. For sure we are. Our industrial 
capacity is far different now than it was even 5 years ago, let 
alone 20 and 30 years ago. So, that is an industrial base issue 
that we need to get our arms around.
    You know, we haven't built Stinger missiles in this country 
up until the Ukraine thing for 20 years, that we have built 
here, except for just hands full that we provided to one of our 
friends.
    Mr. McCormick. In 10 seconds, I just want to congratulate 
our F-22 pilots for their first kill. Carry on. Let the Marines 
lead the way, though. God bless. Thanks.
    I yield.
    The Chairman. I would tell the witnesses we saved the best 
for last.
    [Laughter.]
    My friend from the great State of Alabama, Ms. Sewell, is 
recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Sewell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    As a new member of the House Armed Services Committee, I 
would like to take a point of personal privilege to say that we 
in the Alabama delegation are very proud of the chairman, and I 
look forward to working with him and the Ranking Member Smith 
on issues of great importance to our military.
    I represent, as you know, Mr. Chairman, Alabama's Seventh 
Congressional District, which is the proud home of Maxwell Air 
Force Base and the 187th Air National Guard Fighter Wing, as 
well as the 117th Air National Guard Refueling Wing in 
Birmingham. Countless men and women in uniform that proudly 
serve our country are natives of our great State. And I look 
forward to continuing to work with you in the efforts to 
protect them and, also, to pursue our military capabilities.
    Dr. Sisson, I wanted to ask you, I know that the CCP is 
trying to expand its reach and influence around the globe. They 
have established a foothold in Djibouti and they are pursuing 
transit right agreements in the South Pacific.
    What tools do we have in our toolbox to strengthen our 
alliances around the world and discourage countries from 
hosting PLA bases? And could pursuing more economic engagement 
in the Pacific area be helpful? For example, the Biden 
administration is currently pursuing more engagement via the 
Indo-Pacific Economic Framework. Your thoughts on this?
    Dr. Sisson. Yes, absolutely, I think economic engagement is 
an important element of the ways that we can engage with 
nations in the Western Pacific, but, also, as you know, rightly 
in other parts of the world.
    You know, the CCP has taken advantage of what are truly 
remarkable gains in its internal development to, essentially, 
sell that model overseas. And they have been able to put 
together appealing packages, in part, because they keep the 
cost of their loans low, construction contracts, and so forth.
    So, the thing that we can do is to continue to engage with 
countries around the world; listen very carefully to their 
interests and needs; present alternatives to the Chinese 
option. We can also count on those countries seeing what has 
happened to others who have engaged with the CCP in these ways. 
These construction projects that are shoddy and don't last very 
long, and that, ultimately don't serve the needs of the nation, 
that's a lesson that is not lost on others who are looking to 
improve their own development. So, we can continue to provide 
that alternative in terms of quality and to listen and engage 
[with] them in areas where the quality of those relationships 
is really important.
    Ms. Sewell. While this is my first hearing on HASC, I 
served on the House Select Committee on Intelligence for 8 
years prior to this. And I can tell you that cybersecurity and 
AI were like at the foremost of things that we were discussing, 
and I know that you are an expert in artificial intelligence, 
military application of them.
    And so, how is the PLA approaching the use and integration 
of AI into their tactical and strategic planning? And moreover, 
how can we integrate emerging AI technology into our national 
security infrastructure, which will also ensure that there are 
proper checks on this novel technology?
    Dr. Sisson. That is among the most important questions 
today, I think, not just specific to the military domain, but 
beyond. In the military domain, the PLA has been very focused 
on using AI-enabled technologies to conduct what it calls 
systems warfare, which is the idea that information, as it has 
always been in warfare, is so essential to the ability to use 
the forces that you have, to force deploy--force employment.
    And what we need to do in response to their gains and their 
concepts in that domain is to create enough resilience and 
enough defense around our command-and-control networks, so that 
they can't deploy those AI-enabled tools to effect a blinding 
strike and, essentially, cut portions of our services off from 
the information that they need to effect their missions.
    Ms. Sewell. Very good.
    Admiral Harris, I only have a minute. But in your 
testimony, you mentioned the new administrations in Korea and 
Japan. And my State of Alabama has close ties with both Korea 
and Japan. And both of our countries have benefitted by our 
automotive manufacturing presence in Alabama.
    How can we encourage the development of deeper defense and 
economic ties with our allies in the Pacific region?
    Admiral Harris. Well, one of the best ways of doing that is 
to encourage countries with companies that are operating in 
China to offshore those companies to the United States, near-
shore them somewhere outside of China.
    With regard to our defense relationships, they are very 
close between us and South Korea and us and Japan.
    Ms. Sewell. Thank you.
    The Chairman. The gentlelady's time is expired.
    I would like to thank our witnesses for this very 
informative hearing. You have been very helpful.
    And I thank our members for their participation.
    And with that, we are adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 1:33 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]


      
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                            A P P E N D I X

                            February 7, 2023

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                            February 7, 2023

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                   DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD

                            February 7, 2023

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              WITNESS RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS ASKED DURING

                              THE HEARING

                            February 7, 2023

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              RESPONSE TO QUESTION SUBMITTED BY MS. TOKUDA

    Admiral Harris. As I said in my testimony in response to this 
question before time expired, we must not allow the PRC to dictate our 
policy regarding Taiwan, or any other country for that matter. 
Diplomacy and diplomats matter . . . but diplomacy must be backed by 
military power when dealing with naked aggression by countries like the 
PRC and Russia. The U.S. can, indeed, walk and chew gum at the same 
time. We deter the PRC and support Taiwan by (1) ensuring we have the 
military strength to defeat the PRC if it comes to war; (2) helping 
Taiwan to the full extent of the law--the Taiwan Relations Act--with 
arms sales, bilateral all-domain exercises, and support in the 
international arena; (3) enacting as quickly as possible a bilateral 
free trade agreement with Taipei; and (4) adopting a policy of 
strategic clarity by rejecting our current 4-decades long policy of 
strategic ambiguity when it comes to the question of whether we'd 
defend Taiwan militarily if the PRC attacked Taiwan in order to 
forcibly compel reunification with the mainland. We should be clear to 
the PRC of our intent so they understand the cost of war against the 
U.S.; we should be clear to Taiwan so that the Taiwanese can make a 
truly informed decisions about their future; and we should be clear to 
the American people. In 2023, ambiguity serves none of these 
constituencies.   [See page 54.]


      
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              QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING

                            February 7, 2023

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                  QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MR. GALLAGHER

    Mr. Gallagher. In recent weeks, we've heard encouraging reports 
from Japan and the Philippines about their receptivity to hosting new 
U.S. bases, particularly in the Ryukyus and Luzon. With both the Army 
and Marine Corps developing new CONOPS like MDTFs and MLRs that utilize 
ground-launched fires, just how important to deterrence is it to take 
advantage of these new opportunities and incorporate additional forces 
forward in the First Island Chain before the shooting starts?
    Admiral Harris. This is extremely important for 3 reasons:
    1. Strategically, Tokyo's and Manila's receptivity to hosting new 
U.S. footprints in their countries highlights their commitment to their 
alliances with the U.S. This is especially important for the 
Philippines due to the fraught relationship between the U.S. and the 
Duterte administration, despite our treaty alliance with Manila.
    2. Strategically, their receptivity to hosting new U.S. footprints 
in their countries underscores the concern they have with increasing 
Chinese aggression in the region, especially in view of their own 
territorial issues with the PRC. Xi Jinping's ongoing outreach to 
Vladimir Putin is a slap in the face to the International Criminal 
Court's warrant for the arrest of Putin on war crimes charges, and 
underscores what a poor international partner the PRC is.
    3. Tactically, building additional facilities in the Philippines 
and Japan increases the staging points and resulting threat vectors and 
dilemmas that the PRC will have to deal with if we go to blows with 
Beijing.
    Mr. Gallagher. As a combatant commander, how important was Red Hill 
to your ability to keep your forces fueled and operating, particularly 
in a protracted conflict?
    In your judgement, do how can we replace its fuel storage capacity 
and what would be the impact if we can't do so quickly?
    As an operational commander, would you see a benefit to defueling 
Red Hill but keeping it ``in stasis'' where if need be, in the event of 
a conflict, it could be utilized to resupply the fleet?
    Admiral Harris. As COMUSPACOM and, before that, COMPACFLT, Red Hill 
was critical to my operational flexibility since there was no 
alternative at the time. I do believe, however, that there could have 
been (and are) acceptable operational alternatives if the Navy was (and 
is) willing to resource them. While I'm not happy that leaks/spills 
caused DOD and the Navy to make the decision to close Red Hill and move 
to other solutions, I am glad that the decision was made to close Red 
Hill and move to other solutions. To the question of ``how'', while I 
believe there are acceptable commercial solutions in the near term, 
including mobile solutions, to add to extant facilities, I defer to DLA 
expertise on this. Operationally, putting all our eggs in one basket 
makes far less sense today than it did 80 years ago, in 1940, when 
construction of Red Hill first began, especially given precision and 
deeply penetrating 21st Century weapons. For the longer term, the U.S. 
must look to staging forward, hardened, and defended logistics sites 
along the Second Island Chain. This will require a whole-of-government 
effort, to include negotiating basing rights, building the facilities, 
acquiring the manpower to operate the facilities, building the 
infrastructure to defend the facilities, and addressing the 
environmental issues. After all, at the end of the day, we don't want 
to simply replicate a ``Red Hill Forward'' with all the problems we had 
with ``Red Hill 1.0''. Regarding keeping Red Hill ``in stasis'', while 
it would give the INDOPACOM and PACFLT commanders options, the issue 
remains that if Red Hill is defueled today, and then refueled again at 
some point in the future, we will have to deal with the leak issues all 
over again, and maybe much worse. I'm certainly not a civil or 
structural engineer, but I believe there might be an issue of 
``internal collapse'' or weakening of the tanks' walls if there is no 
fuel or other liquid to exert outward pressure on the walls to keep 
them intact over a long period of ``in stasis''. This will have to be 
studied, of course, if we're going to consider this course of action. 
But, again, I defer to experts on this issue.
                                 ______
                                 
                   QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MR. BERGMAN
    Mr. Bergman. The PRC has a significant influence operation 
currently in place within U.S. think tanks, academic institutions, and 
other prominent policy institutions that favorably shape and achieve 
the PRC's goals. Agreements made by Brookings with foreign governments 
put the think tank's independent research in serious question. For 
example, the memorandum of understanding with Qatar that the Brookings 
Doha Center would ``engage with regular consultation'' and provide an 
``agenda for programs that will be developed by the Center'' indicate 
the level of influence and control foreign entities have over 
institutions such as Brookings. Did Brookings Institution have a 
similar agreement for the John L. Thornton China Center with the 
Chinese government, the CCP, or any affiliated entity? How do we ensure 
Think Tanks such as Brookings maintain independent research in the 
future when such memorandum of understandings with Qatar jeopardize the 
public's perception of so-called independent research?
    Dr. Sisson. As indicated in my disclosure form, while I am a Fellow 
at the Brookings Institution, I provided testimony before the Committee 
representing my individual views based on my own scholarship and do not 
speak on behalf of the Institution. In an effort to be responsive to 
your question, Brookings leadership has provided the following 
information:
    Brookings personnel have long been subject to research independence 
and integrity policies, which contain requirements for research 
independence, nonpartisanship, and avoidance of plagiarism, research 
misconduct, and conflicts of interest. These policies serve to protect 
the integrity and objectivity of Brookings's scholarship and 
operations. Brookings's policies also require vetting and disclosure of 
funding relationships. For decades, the institution has voluntarily 
published a list of donors and other financial information in its 
annual report. Annual reports dating back to 2004 can be found on 
Brookings's website: https://www.brookings.edu/about-us/annual-report/.
    The John L. Thornton China Center is part of Brookings's Foreign 
Policy research program, and its activities are governed by the 
policies described above. The Center does not have, and to the best of 
our knowledge has never had, any funding agreements with the Chinese 
Government, the CCP, or entities that are known by Brookings to be 
controlled by or otherwise acting on behalf of the Chinese government 
or the CCP. Nor to the best of our knowledge has Brookings ever had any 
agreement which gives the Chinese government, the CCP or any related 
entities influence or control over Brookings research.
    Mr. Bergman. Are you aware that the Brookings Institution has 
accepted millions from Chinese sources, including from the China-United 
States Exchange Foundation (CUSEF), a Hong Kong-based nonprofit. 
According to Foreign Policy Magazine, ``CUSEF is a registered foreign 
agent bankrolled by a high-ranking Chinese government official with 
close ties to a sprawling Chinese Communist Party.'' Did Brookings 
disclose its funding from CUSEF and other entities tied to the Chinese 
government in its policy papers and op-eds, as well as during its 
briefings on Capitol Hill and with the Administration?
    Dr. Sisson. As indicated in my disclosure form, while I am a Fellow 
at the Brookings Institution, I provided testimony before the Committee 
representing my individual views based on my own scholarship and do not 
speak on behalf of the Institution. In an effort to be responsive to 
your question, Brookings leadership has provided the following 
information:
    For decades, the institution has voluntarily published information 
about its finances and a list of donors in its annual report. With 
respect to the China-United States Exchange Foundation (CUSEF), 
Brookings received a total of $612,000 in support from CUSEF between 
2008 and 2016. Brookings has not received funding from CUSEF since 
April 2016. Brookings voluntarily disclosed CUSEF's financial support 
in its annual report in every year it received CUSEF support as well as 
in publications directly supported by CUSEF funding.

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