[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]







 
                        UNFOLDING THE UNIVERSE:
                        INITIAL SCIENCE RESULTS
                  FROM THE JAMES WEBB SPACE TELESCOPE

=======================================================================

                                     
                                     

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON SPACE AND AERONAUTICS

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE,
                             AND TECHNOLOGY

                                 OF THE

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                           NOVEMBER 16, 2022

                               __________

                           Serial No. 117-71

                               __________

 Printed for the use of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology

                                     
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       Available via the World Wide Web: http://science.house.gov
       
       
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             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 49-439PDF          WASHINGTON : 2023
       
       
       

              COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY

             HON. EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas, Chairwoman
ZOE LOFGREN, California              FRANK LUCAS, Oklahoma, 
SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon                 Ranking Member
AMI BERA, California                 MO BROOKS, Alabama
HALEY STEVENS, Michigan,             BILL POSEY, Florida
    Vice Chair                       RANDY WEBER, Texas
MIKIE SHERRILL, New Jersey           BRIAN BABIN, Texas
JAMAAL BOWMAN, New York              ANTHONY GONZALEZ, Ohio
MELANIE A. STANSBURY, New Mexico     MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida
BRAD SHERMAN, California             JAMES R. BAIRD, Indiana
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado              DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida
JERRY McNERNEY, California           MIKE GARCIA, California
PAUL TONKO, New York                 STEPHANIE I. BICE, Oklahoma
BILL FOSTER, Illinois                YOUNG KIM, California
DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey          RANDY FEENSTRA, Iowa
DON BEYER, Virginia                  JAKE LaTURNER, Kansas
SEAN CASTEN, Illinois                CARLOS A. GIMENEZ, Florida
CONOR LAMB, Pennsylvania             JAY OBERNOLTE, California
DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina         PETER MEIJER, Michigan
GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin                JAKE ELLZEY, TEXAS
DAN KILDEE, Michigan                 MIKE CAREY, OHIO
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
LIZZIE FLETCHER, Texas
VACANCY
                                 ------                                

                 Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics

                   HON. DON BEYER, Virginia, Chairman
ZOE LOFGREN, California              BRIAN BABIN, Texas, 
AMI BERA, California                     Ranking Member
BRAD SHERMAN, California             MO BROOKS, Alabama
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado              BILL POSEY, Florida
DONALD NORCROSS, New Jersey          DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida
VACANCY                              YOUNG KIM, California

                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S

                           November 16, 2022

                                                                   Page

Hearing Charter..................................................     2

                           Opening Statements

Statement by Representative Don Beyer, Chairman, Subcommittee on 
  Space and Aeronautics, Committee on Science, Space, and 
  Technology, U.S. House of Representatives......................     8
    Written Statement............................................     9

Statement by Representative Brian Babin, Ranking Member, 
  Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics, Committee on Science, 
  Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives...........    10
    Written Statement............................................    11

Written statement by Representative Eddie Bernice Johnson, 
  Chairwoman, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. 
  House of Representatives.......................................    63

                               Witnesses:

Dr. Mark Clampin, Astrophysics Division Director, National 
  Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA)
    Oral Statement...............................................    13
    Written Statement............................................    16

Dr. Steven L. Finkelstein, Professor of Astronomy, University of 
  Texas at Austin
    Oral Statement...............................................    21
    Written Statement............................................    32

Dr. Natalie Batalha, Professor of Astronomy and Astrophysics and 
  Director of Astrobiology, University of California, Santa Cruz
    Oral Statement...............................................    44
    Written Statement............................................    55

Discussion.......................................................    63


                        UNFOLDING THE UNIVERSE:



                        INITIAL SCIENCE RESULTS



                  FROM THE JAMES WEBB SPACE TELESCOPE

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 16, 2022

                  House of Representatives,
             Subcommittee on Space and Aeronautics,
               Committee on Science, Space, and Technology,
                                                   Washington, D.C.

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:33 a.m., in 
room 2318, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Don Beyer 
[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Chairman Beyer. Good morning. The hearing will come to 
order. We welcome our guests. Without objection, the Chair is 
authorized to declare a recess at any time.
    And before I want to deliver my opening remarks, I want to 
note that, today, the Committee is meeting both in person and 
virtually. And I want to announce a couple of reminders to 
Members about the conduct of this hearing. First, Members and 
staff who are attending in person may choose to be masked, but 
it is not required. And--however, if you--any individual with 
symptoms, a positive test, or exposure to someone with COVID-19 
should wear a mask while present.
    Members who are attending virtually should keep their video 
feed on as long as they are present in the hearing, and Members 
are responsible for their own microphones. Please also keep 
your microphones muted unless you are speaking. And if Members 
have documents they wish to submit for the record, please email 
them to the Committee Clerk, whose email address was circulated 
prior to the hearing.
    I'd also like to note that Subcommittee Chair Suzanne 
Bonamici has asked to wave on to the the elite exclusive Space 
Subcommittee for this meeting. And without objection, she is 
waved on. And if there are other Members who so desire, we'll 
recognize that at the time.
    And before we start, I just want to take a moment to 
recognize the thrilling, first successful test launch of the 
integrated Space Launch System and the Orion crew vehicle 
Artemis 1--very, very exciting, first time in 50 years--Cape 
Canaveral at 1:47 this morning. This is a momentous achievement 
for NASA (National Aeronautics and Space Administration), for 
Democrats, for Republicans, for the Nation, for the world. It's 
a huge step forward toward sending our astronauts back to the 
Moon and then to Mars. So on the behalf of my colleague Dr. 
Babin and all of our Members of the Space Subcommittee, I want 
to congratulate all those at NASA and its industry and 
international partners on this historic Artemis 1 launch that 
will send Orion on a test flight journey to the Moon and back.
    Now, we get to turn to another thrilling success. Good 
morning and welcome to today's hearing on ``Unfolding the 
Universe: Initial Science Results from the James Webb Space 
Telescope.'' I want to welcome our esteemed panel of witnesses. 
We are so pleased that you're joining us today and you're 
joining us in person, which is a rarity in the last 2 1/2 
years, so very exciting. Most of us are here in person and 
watching it online have seen the awe-inspiring images that 
James Webb Space Telescope (JWST) has, the Tarantula Nebula, 
the Cartwheel Galaxy, the Cosmic Cliffs, Stephan's Quintet, 
just to name a few. The visual impact of JWST's images alone 
with the unprecedented clarity and detail provides an 
inspirational value that I hope will draw a new generation of 
scientists and explorers into astronomy, astrophysics, and the 
sciences.
    Today's hearing will delve into what those stunning images 
tell us. What questions will those mesmerizing pictures answer? 
What new mysteries will they help reveal? And how will JWST's 
observations help us understand how our Universe came to be, 
the birth and evolution of stars, planets, galaxies, and how 
the conditions arose for life to exist on this planet, maybe in 
the solar system, and in this galaxy.
    I'm really eager to hear from our witnesses on what they're 
learning in just the first few months of JWST's science 
operations, which began officially July 12, 2022, because the 
science is just the beginning, but the journey to get here has 
been decades in the making. Recommended as the top priority for 
major new investments in the National Academies of Science, 
Engineering, and Medicine's 2000 Decadal Survey--just 22 years 
ago--for astronomy and astrophysics, JWST's design, 
development, integration, and testing on the ground spanned 
more than 20 years and required 10 technology miracles along 
the way.
    Challenges were many, successes was never a guarantee. Even 
following a successful launch on the Ariane 5 rocket, the 
telescope's complex deployment sequence over 29 days involved 
344 potential single-point failures. So I think we're all very 
proud of the dedication and commitment of the many scientists, 
engineers, international partners, contractors, that brought us 
here to celebrate the first science of JWST--the most powerful 
and complex telescope humans have ever sent into space. And 
while the initial results and first imagery have been nothing 
short of awesome, I'm confident there's much more to come and 
much more than we can even imagine.
    So thank you for being here in person for what I predict 
will be a fascinating discussion.
    [The prepared statement of Chairman Beyer follows:]

    Before we begin, I want to take a moment to recognize the 
thrilling first successful test launch of the integrated Space 
Launch System and Orion crew vehicle-Artemis 1-from Cape 
Canaveral that occurred early this morning. This is a momentous 
achievement for NASA and for the Nation. And it's a huge step 
forward toward sending our astronauts back to the Moon and on 
to Mars. Congratulations to all those at NASA and its industry 
and international partners on this historic Artemis 1 launch 
that will send Orion on a test flight journey to the Moon and 
back.
    Now turning to another thrilling success, good morning, and 
welcome to today's hearing on Unfolding the Universe: Initial 
Science Results from the James Webb Telescope. I also want to 
welcome our esteemed panel of witnesses. We are so pleased you 
are joining us today.
    Most of us here in person and watching online have likely 
seen the awe-inspiring images obtained by the James Webb Space 
Telescope-the Tarantula Nebula, the Cartwheel Galaxy, the 
Cosmic Cliffs, and Stephan's Quintet, just to name a few.
    The visual impact of JWST's images alone, with 
unprecedented clarity and detail, provides an inspirational 
value that I hope will draw a new generation of scientists and 
explorers into astronomy, astrophysics, and the sciences.
    Today's hearing will delve into what those stunning images 
tell us.
    What questions will those mesmerizing pictures answer and 
what new mysteries will they reveal?
    How will JWST's observations help us understand how our 
Universe came to be, the birth and evolution of stars, planets, 
and galaxies, and how the conditions arose for life to exist on 
this planet, in this Solar System, and in this galaxy?
    I'm eager to hear from our witnesses on what they are 
learning in just the first months of JWST's science operations, 
which officially began on July 12, 2022.
    While JWST's science is just beginning, the journey to get 
here has been decades in the making.
    Recommended as the top priority for major new investments 
in the National Academies of Science, Engineering, and 
Medicine's 2000 decadal survey for astronomy and astrophysics, 
JWST's design, development, integration, and testing on the 
ground spanned more than twenty years and required ten 
technology ``miracle'' innovations along the way.
    The challenges were many and success was not a guarantee. 
Even following its successful launch on an Ariane 5 rocket, the 
telescope's complex deployment sequence over 29 days involved 
344 potential single-point failures.
    I'm proud of the dedication and commitment of the many 
scientists, engineers, international partners, and contractors 
that have brought us here to celebrate the first science of 
JWST, the most powerful and complex telescope humans have ever 
sent into space.
    While the initial results and first imagery have been 
nothing short of stunning, I am confident that there is much 
more to come, and much we cannot even imagine.
    In closing, thank you again to our witnesses for being 
here-and in person-for what I predict will be a fascinating 
discussion.

    Chairman Beyer. And let me now recognize my friend, Dr. 
Babin, for an opening statement.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate 
this opportunity to be able to hear from you expert witnesses 
about this fantastic project.
    But good morning. I want to welcome you witnesses here 
before us today. And also I would like to mention the 
successful launch of Artemis 1 early this morning. Once again, 
our Nation has captured the world's attention by venturing back 
to the Moon with the pursuit of going even further where no one 
has ever gone before. Our successful launch of Artemis 1 is a 
remarkable feat made possible by so many brilliant minds across 
this great land of ours, including hardworking men and women at 
Johnson Space Center, which I am very privileged to represent. 
As a longtime supporter of the Artemis program, I want to 
congratulate everyone involved in this launch and wish them a 
successful mission.
    But now back to another fantastic achievement, the James 
Webb Space Telescope, also known as JWST, finally launched last 
Christmas morning with great fanfare. The flagship mission is 
the culmination of over 2 decades of very hard work and $10 
billion in taxpayer investment. The successful development, 
launch, and deployment of JWST is a testament to the engineers, 
the scientists, and the technicians who were so committed to 
this great project. NASA and its contractors once again 
demonstrated that the impossible is within reach.
    JWST also shows that the United States is still capable of 
building and operating large-scale, highly technical systems. 
This fact cannot be overstated. And while it's great to take a 
victory lap with a successful check out of JWST systems, we 
must also be vigilant in maintaining this capability in the 
future. We can't take for granted that we will be able to build 
cutting-edge systems in the future just because we were able to 
do so in the past. It will require ongoing congressional 
support and oversight to maintain key capabilities to build 
these world class systems. This is imperative not only for our 
scientific leadership, but also our national and economic 
security, as the dual-use nature of space impacts our citizens' 
lives every single day.
    Just as with the Hubble Space Telescope and NASA's other 
great observatories, we expect great things. JWST was touted as 
potentially rewriting the textbooks. And as breathtaking images 
and results have come in from JWST over the last 4 months, 
we're finally starting to see the fruits of our hard labor.
    Today's hearing is an opportunity to review these findings 
and to think about the future. With the spacecraft operating 
and providing data, what are the lessons learned from JWST that 
can be applied to future missions like the Nancy Grace Roman 
Space Telescope or future follow-on observatories? How can 
Congress help ensure that those lessons learned are implemented 
and followed through because the last thing we want to do is to 
make the same mistakes twice.
    Cost overruns and schedule delays have real-world impacts. 
They delay the start of other new and exciting missions and 
sometimes prevent them from even starting. The recent example 
of the Psyche mission comes to mind. Developed under the cost 
cap Discovery Program and NASA's Planetary Science Division, 
Psyche missed its planned launch date earlier this year and 
will not launch before next October. This will result in the 
program exceeding its cost cap and delaying the next Discovery-
class mission Veritas by at least 3 years. It also raises the 
question of whether Discovery missions really have a cost cap 
or whether the caps are just recommendations.
    A recent Discovery mission InSight also exceeded its cost 
cap after issues with the partner-provided instrument resulted 
in a missed launch window to Mars. The moral hazard caused by 
specifying a cost cap but not holding missions accountable to 
that cap is directly applicable to how NASA will manage future 
astronomy missions after JWST.
    These are all issues that we need to remain focused on 
going forward. But today, I am very interested in hearing from 
our expert panel on some of the more interesting results that 
we have derived from JWST's first year. And I look forward to 
their testimony, and I yield back the balance of my time, Mr. 
Chairman. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Babin follows:]

    Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to welcome to 
our witnesses for appearing before us today
    The James Webb Space Telescope--also known as JWST--finally 
launched last Christmas morning with great fanfare. The 
flagship mission is the culmination of over two decades of hard 
work and $10 billion in taxpayer investment. The successful 
development, launch, and deployment of JWST is a testament to 
the engineers, scientists, technicians that were so committed 
to the project. NASA and its contractors once again 
demonstrated that the impossible is within reach.
    JWST also shows that the U.S. is still capable of building 
and operating large-scale highly technical systems. This fact 
can't be overstated. While it is great to take a victory lap 
with the successful check-out of JWST's systems, we must also 
be vigilant in maintaining this capability in the future. We 
can't take for granted that we will be able to build cutting-
edge systems in the future just because we were able to do so 
in the past. It will require ongoing Congressional support and 
oversight to maintain key capabilities to build these world-
class systems. This is imperative not only for our scientific 
leadership, but also our national and economic security, as the 
dual-use nature of space impacts our citizens' lives every day.
    Just as with the Hubble Space Telescope and NASA's other 
``great observatories'', we expect great things. JWST was 
touted as potentially rewriting textbooks. As breath- taking 
images and results have come in from JWST over the last four 
months, we are finally starting to see the fruits of our labor. 
Today's hearing is an opportunity to review these findings and 
think about the future.
    With the spacecraft operating and providing data, what are 
the lessons learned from JWST that can be applied to future 
missions like the Nancy Grace Roman Space Telescope or future 
follow-on observatories? How can Congress help ensure that 
those lessons learned are implemented and followed through on? 
Because the last thing we want to do is make the same mistakes 
twice.Cost overruns and schedule delays have real-world 
impacts. They delay the start of other new, exciting, missions, 
and sometimes prevent them from even starting.
    The recent example of the Psyche mission comes to mind. 
Developed under the cost-capped Discovery program in NASA's 
Planetary Science division, Psyche missed its planned launch 
date earlier this year and will not launch before next October. 
This will result in the program exceeding its cost cap and 
delaying the next Discovery-class mission, VERITAS, by at least 
three years. It also raises the question of whether Discovery 
missions really have a cost cap, or whether the caps are just 
recommendations. A recent Discovery mission, InSight, also 
exceeded its cost cap after issues with the partner-provided 
instrument resulted in a missed launch window to Mars. The 
moral hazard caused by specifying a cost cap but not holding 
missions accountable to that cap is directly applicable to how 
NASA will manage future astronomy missions after JWST.
    These are all issues that we need to remain focused on 
going forward, but today I am interested in hearing from out 
expert panel on some of the more interesting results that we 
have derived from JWST's first year. I look forward to their 
testimony and yield back the balance of my time.

    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Congressman, very much.
    Mr. Babin. Yes, sir.
    Chairman Beyer. At this time, I'd like to introduce the 
witnesses. Dr. Mark Clampin is the Astrophysics Division 
Director in the Science Mission Directorate (SMD) at NASA 
Headquarters in Washington. Previously, Dr. Clampin was the 
Director of the Sciences and Exploration Directorate at the 
Goddard Space Flight Center. At Goddard, he also previously 
served as the JWST Observatory Project Scientist and as 
Director of the Astrophysics Science Division. Dr. Clampin is a 
co-investigator with the Transiting Exoplanet Survey Satellite, 
TESS, and the Advanced Camera for Surveys science team. His 
research interests focus on the study and the formation and 
evolution of planetary systems. Dr. Clampin graduated from the 
University of London with a B.S. in physics and from the 
University of St. Andrews in Scotland with a Ph.D. in 
astronomy.
    Dr. Steven Finkelstein is an Associate Professor at the 
University of Texas at Austin. His research focuses on the 
formation and evolution of galaxies in the early universe and 
the interplay of these sources with reionization. He makes use 
of the largest ground and space-based observatories and is the 
Principal Investigator for JWST Early Release Science observing 
program, the Cosmic Evolution Early Release Science Survey 
(CEERS). Dr. Finkelstein received his B.S. degree from the 
University of Washington in astronomy and physics and his Ph.D. 
in physics from Arizona State University.
    And finally, Dr. Natalie Batalha is a Professor of 
Astronomy and Astrophysics and the Director of the Astrobiology 
at the University of California Santa Cruz. Dr. Batalha's 
research focuses on exoplanet science, including both detection 
and characterization. She's the Principal Investigator for the 
Transiting Exoplanet Community Early Release Science program 
with JWST to collect spectra of the atmospheres of a diverse 
set of exoplanets. Dr. Batalha was previously at NASA Ames, and 
served as the Project Scientist for the Kepler mission. She 
earned her bachelor's degree in physics and astronomy from the 
University of California, Berkeley, and her Ph.D. in astronomy 
from the University of California, Santa Cruz.
    As our witnesses should know, you will each have five 
minutes for your spoken testimony. Your written testimony will 
be included in the record for the hearing. And when you've all 
completed your spoken testimony, we will begin with questions. 
Each Member will have five minutes to question the panel.
    So we will begin with Dr. Mark Clampin.

                 TESTIMONY OF DR. MARK CLAMPIN,

                ASTROPHYSICS DIVISION DIRECTOR,

                      NATIONAL AERONAUTICS

                AND SPACE ADMINISTRATION (NASA)

    Dr. Clampin. Chairman Beyer, Ranking Member Babin, and 
Members of the Committee, good morning. My name is Mark 
Clampin, and I'm the Director of the Astrophysics Division and 
NASA Science Mission Directorate. This is a great day for NASA, 
as you've all mentioned. As one of the many people who worked 
on the James Webb Space Telescope, I'm thrilled to join you 
this morning to share the groundbreaking science NASA and our 
partners, the European Space Agency (ESA) and the Canadian 
Space Agency (CSA), are beginning to explore. NASA's JWS team--
JWST team was excited to join with audiences across the Nation 
and indeed across the world for its launch and then in July for 
the first science image rollout events.
    JWST was designed to discover the first galaxies and stars 
that formed in the universe, providing a view of the most 
distant light that we can see. Its discoveries will unravel how 
galaxies form and evolve. It will allow us to peer into stellar 
nurseries and study the lifecycle of stars and the planetary 
systems that form around stars. And it will set us on the path 
to searching for evidence of habitable planets outside our 
solar system by providing a first look at the atmospheres of 
small rocky planets outside our solar system.
    JWST is already setting a rapid pace with new discoveries 
previously beyond our reach, and its very first full-color 
image, the galaxy cluster SMACS 723, NASA's scientists were 
amazed to see the deepest and sharpest infrared images of the 
universe ever taken. The combined mass of the foreground 
cluster of galaxies, which acts to gravitationally bend and 
magnify light from even more distant background galaxies, 
allows us to see somewhere when the universe was much less than 
a billion years old.
    So today, I'm pleased to reveal the once-hidden features of 
a protostar within the dark cloud L1527, which you will see on 
the monitor, as it's just been imaged by JWST. Protostars are 
very young stars that are forming inside their parent molecular 
clouds. And this first image of this protostar with JWST shows 
that while the protostar itself is hidden, the view within the 
neck of this hourglass shape you see a protoplanetary disk as a 
dark line across the middle of the neck, and to the top and the 
bottom you see light from the protostar illuminating the 
cavities within the surrounding outflows of gas and dust from 
this object.
    [Slide.][GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Dr. Clampin. JWST's unmatched sensitivity is also revealing 
new hints about the worlds outside our solar system. JWST 
confirmed the first clear evidence that carbon dioxide in the 
atmosphere of the gas giant planet called WASP-39b. This 
planet's discovery in 2011 was based on ground-based detections 
of the subtle periodic dimming of light from its host star as 
the planet transits in front of the star, essentially a mini-
eclipse. And JWST has now studied WASP-39 and discovered this 
carbon dioxide feature. So we expect the JWST will play a key 
role in starting the search for potentially habitable planets 
outside our solar system during the decade.
    Mr. Chairman, I'm always asked what is next and how do we 
build on the national investment made in JWST and its success. 
So firstly, we will be making lots of new discoveries with the 
unprecedented capabilities at the James Webb Space Telescope. 
In the new--near future, NASA plans to launch the Roman Space 
Telescope, which will conduct widefield surveys to help us to 
understand the nature of dark energy, the mysterious force 
which is causing the universe to accelerate as it expands. And 
a key recommendation in the National Academies for Science 
Decadal Survey in Astrophysics, known as Astro2020, is the call 
for NASA to develop a new large space telescope able to survey 
an image, habitable worlds around sunlike stars, and then 
examine their atmospheres for evidence of life, what I will 
call a habitable worlds observatory.
    JWST, like Hubble before it, establishes U.S. leadership in 
space science, and a habitable worlds observatory will continue 
U.S. leadership in space science and scientific discovery by 
building on the breakthroughs in technology and science of the 
James Webb Space Telescope.
    It's truly an exciting time in astrophysics. Every day, one 
of my colleagues shares a new JW image or scientific result 
that is astonishing. Seeing JWST's first science images 
displayed in Times Square really show that JWST science has 
captured the American public's imagination.
    So I would like to just conclude by acknowledging the 
contribution to this program by NASA's Nobel Prize winner, Dr. 
John Mather, who was an inspirational leader for the life of 
this program for the James Webb Space Telescope.
    Mr. Chairman, I'd be happy to respond to any questions you 
or other Members of the Committee may have.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Clampin follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Beyer. Dr. Clampin, thank you very much. Wonderful 
overview. We appreciate it.
    Dr. Finkelstein, the floor is yours.

            TESTIMONY OF DR. STEVEN L. FINKELSTEIN,

                    PROFESSOR OF ASTRONOMY,

                 UNIVERSITY OF TEXAS AT AUSTIN

    Dr. Finkelstein. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and 
Members of the Subcommittee. My name is Steven Finkelstein. I'm 
a Professor of Astronomy at the University of Texas at Austin. 
I'm also the Principal Investigator of one of JWST's Early 
Release Science programs. It's my great pleasure to be here 
today to share with you the early discoveries from our program, 
which is called the Cosmic Evolution Early Release Science 
Survey, or CEERS.
    [Slide.]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Dr. Finkelstein. CEERS targets galaxies forming in the 
early universe using several of JWST's instruments. I would 
like to take a moment to explain how the study of the early 
universe is even possible. This is thanks to two helpful 
features of nature, the first of which is our cosmic speed 
limit, the speed of light. When we look at distant objects, the 
light we see has traveled large distances to reach our 
telescopes, so we see these objects as they were in the past. 
While this is inconsequential in the nearby universe, when we 
look at distant galaxies, this allows us to see them as they 
were billions of years ago.
    The second way the universe helps us is that it is 
expanding. All galaxies are moving away from one another, and 
as light from galaxies travels through expanding space, the 
light waves stretch out. This makes galaxies appear redder than 
they should be with the amount of reddening proportional to the 
distance. Astronomers assign this redshift a single number, 
which can be thought of as a time indicator. The most distant 
galaxies that the iconic Hubble Space Telescope can see are at 
a redshift number of about 10, where we are seeing them as they 
were over 13 billion years into the past. The universe is only 
13.8 billion years old, so this is quite a feat from Hubble.
    However, Hubble is not capable of reaching greater 
distances. At redshifts greater than 10, light from these more 
distant galaxies is stretched so far to the red that Hubble, 
which is optimized for visible light, cannot see them. This 
means that the earliest phases of the universe when the first 
galaxies form and evolve, have remained elusive. When did the 
first galaxies form out of the cosmic dark ages? What did they 
look like? Are there stars similar to those in our own Milky 
Way or fundamentally different in some way?
    Enter JWST. With its larger mirror and sensitivity to 
infrared light, JWST was designed to target this early cosmic 
era, and that is exactly what we are doing with CEERS. We were 
fortunate enough to receive a portion of our data in mid-July 
and I'm excited to share with you this beautiful image of the 
CEERS field. This image you see now shows a region of the sky 
about 8 times larger in area than Webb's first deep field 
containing over 40,000 galaxies. The images at the bottom show 
a gallery of galaxies highlighting the exquisite level of 
detail achievable with JWST.
    [Slide.]
 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]   
    
    Dr. Finkelstein. As we analyze these data in late July, one 
galaxy jumped out at us in particular. We continued to improve 
the quality of our images, and we became convinced that we were 
seeing a galaxy with a redshift number of 12 more distant than 
anything humanity had seen before. Here in this image I present 
to you Maisie's galaxy.
    [Slide.]
 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]   
    
    Dr. Finkelstein. Maisie's galaxy, which is named after my 
daughter as we both discovered it on her 9th birthday, and she 
had been asking me for months to name a galaxy after her, it's 
shown in the zoomed in panel, the small red dot. Here you are 
seeing light which has been traveling to us from a time only 
370 million years after the Big Bang, looking back over 97 
percent of the history of the universe.
    And a paper just submitted last week, we can now confirm 
that Maisie is not alone. Here I show you a compilation of 26 
extremely distant galaxies discovered in our CEERS data, 
including an amazing galaxy at the top left, which appears to 
be at a redshift number of 16, which means that it's coming to 
us from a time only 250 million years after the Big Bang.
    [Slide.]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Dr. Finkelstein. This high abundance of early galaxies is 
surprising and indicates that something is fundamentally 
different about stars in these galaxies. While our Sun is a 
pretty typical star in our own Milky Way Galaxy, it has been 
theorized that early galaxies, due to their very small amount 
of heavy atomic elements, would have much greater typical star 
masses. These massive stars would lead to galaxies being more 
blue intrinsically and more luminous, allowing more galaxies to 
be seen in our images. And you can see that many of these 
galaxies appear blue in this image, indicating that we may be 
entering an epoch when galaxies are dominated by completely 
different types of stars than today.
    Given the unexpected nature of these galaxies, confirmation 
of their extreme distances is a must. This can be accomplished 
with spectroscopy, which is a type of observation where we take 
the light from an object and split it apart with a dispersive 
element like a prism to split the light into its component 
wavelengths, revealing significantly more information. JWST is 
scheduled to take a spectrum of many of these sources in the 
CEERS field just next month. These data will provide the needed 
confirmation of these redshifts.
    I would like to leave you with one of my favorite images, 
the Stephan's Quintet early release observation. While this 
image features several nearby galaxies, if you look close 
enough, you can see plenty of galaxies in the background. JWST 
is so powerful that every field is a deep field.
    [Slide.]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Dr. Finkelstein. It is amazing to me that just 4 months ago 
we had no idea that our universe started forming stars and 
galaxies so early. We are living in a transformative time in 
astrophysics, and JWST is truly revolutionizing our view of the 
universe. I thank you for your time and would be pleased to 
answer any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Finkelstein follows:]
    
   [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Dr. Finkelstein. So already 
they're finding galaxies older than your daughter. That's 
amazing. It's very cool, though. I hope you have other 
children.
    Dr. Batalha, the floor is yours.

               TESTIMONY OF DR. NATALIE BATALHA,

            PROFESSOR OF ASTRONOMY AND ASTROPHYSICS

                 AND DIRECTOR OF ASTROBIOLOGY,

              UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SANTA CRUZ

    Dr. Batalha. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman Beyer, 
Ranking Member Babin, and Members of the Subcommittee. It is 
such a joy to be here to share the wonder of scientific 
discovery and the success of this new space telescope. Webb is 
performing at or even better than our expectations and has 
already achieved groundbreaking discoveries in our field. This 
is truly the beginning of a new era of exoplanet exploration, 
the hallmark of which will be the study of exoplanet 
atmospheres enabled by JWST.
    [Slide.]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Dr. Batalha. To date, over 5,000 planets have--orbiting 
other stars in the galaxy have been identified. Most were 
discovered using the transit method, which involves the precise 
monitoring of brightnesses of stars to search for the dimming 
of light that occurs if a planet eclipses or transits in front 
of its star. The bottom panel here shows how the brightness 
changes with time. This is the method employed by NASA space 
missions like Kepler and TESS. Those missions taught us that 
planets are common in the galaxy. On average, every sunlike 
star has at least one planet, and we estimate that more than 10 
billion are potentially habitable in our galaxy alone.
    [Slide.]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Dr. Batalha. But these missions also taught us that the 
diversity of planets in the galaxy far exceeds the diversity of 
planets in our solar system. We need to better understand the 
physical processes that give rise to that diversity and their 
impact on planetary habitability if we are to find evidence of 
living worlds in the future. And that's where JWST enters the 
scene.
    Like Kepler and TESS, JWST observes transits, but Kepler 
and TESS observe them in white light, colors scrambled 
together. JWST can measure the dimming of light in hundreds of 
infrared colors simultaneously. Why do we care? Well, when 
exoplanets eclipse their host star, some of the starlight 
passes through the atmosphere on its way to our telescope. And 
the atmosphere imprints a chemical fingerprint on the light 
because each atomic and molecular species absorbs a unique 
pattern of colors. The net effect is that the planet blocks 
more or less light in each color depending on which molecules 
are present.
    These in the next slide are measured transits from a planet 
named WASP-39b, observed as part of our Early Release Science 
program and shown here stacked vertically in 25 different 
infrared colors. The host star is similar to our sun. Its 
transiting exoplanet is a little bit larger than Jupiter but 
about the mass of Saturn, and it orbits its star 8 times closer 
than Mercury is to our Sun.
    [Slide.]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Dr. Batalha. Now, these transits may all look the same, but 
there are subtle differences that JWST can measure. We can 
calculate the amount of starlight blocked by the planet in each 
observed color. And we plot that versus wavelength, as shown by 
the white points in the next graphic. This is the graphical 
representation of a planetary spectrum, the amount of light 
blocked on the Y axis versus wavelength or color on the X axis. 
And it might not have the aesthetic appeal as Maisie's Galaxy 
or the Stephan's Quintet but I would argue that it is just as 
profound regarding the mysteries it reveals.
    [Slide.]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    Dr. Batalha. And from this spectrum we see a panoply of 
atomic and molecular species that we could not see before. The 
tallest bump or hill in this spectrum is due to the absorption 
of carbon dioxide molecules. We also see evidence of sodium, 
potassium, water, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide. The spectrum 
tells us so much more. It tells us there are patchy clouds. We 
learned that the atmosphere is enriched by heavy elements, 
suggesting that the planet was bombarded by planetesimals early 
in its life. And we even see evidence of photochemistry.
    [Slide.]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Dr. Batalha. The presence of sulfur dioxide cannot be 
explained without invoking starlight as a catalyst for the 
chemical reactions. High-energy photons from the star rain down 
on top of the atmosphere and break apart water molecules, 
triggering a cascade of chemical reactions leading to the 
production of sulfur dioxide. Photochemistry is fundamental for 
life on Earth to thrive. This is the first evidence of 
photochemistry of a molecule that requires photochemistry for 
its existence.
    Over 70 transiting exoplanets will be observed by JWST just 
in cycle 1, hundreds over its lifetime. We now have a new lens 
on exoplanet diversity. From these data, we will gain insights 
into planet formation and evolution processes, and we will lay 
the groundwork for identifying habitable environments and 
living worlds in the future.
    Thank you so much for your attention, and I'm happy to 
answer any questions that you might have.
    [The prepared statement of Dr. Batalha follows:]
    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Dr. Batalha, and thank all of 
you for fascinating testimony.
    And Dr. Clampin, I believe one of the images you showed us 
was the first time the public has seen that.
    Dr. Batalha. Yes.
    Dr. Clampin. That's correct, yes. It was unveiled this 
morning.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you for sharing that.
    Dr. Clampin. You got to see it first.
    Chairman Beyer. Great. By the way, if there are Members who 
wish to submit additional opening statements, your statements 
will be added to the record at this point.
     [The prepared statement of Chairwoman Johnson follows:]

    Good morning.
    Thank you, Chairman Beyer, for holding this hearing on such 
an exciting topic, and welcome to our distinguished witnesses.
    This Committee has held multiple hearings throughout the 
development of the James Webb Space Telescope, or JWST. But 
today we are finally here to discuss the science that is 
starting to flow from this amazing observatory.
    I want to express my deep appreciation to the thousands of 
scientists, engineers, and stakeholders who made JWST possible, 
including those at NASA, in industry, at our universities, and 
our international partners. Without their work, we would not be 
here today.
    From the release of the first JWST images this past summer, 
we've gotten breath-taking glimpses of some of the first 
galaxies in the universe, new and dying stars, and the rings of 
Neptune.
    JWST has even given us visual indications of the DART 
asteroid impact event.
    I look forward to hearing from our esteemed witnesses about 
JWST's science results so far on the formation of the first 
stars and galaxies and their evolution over time. I also look 
forward to hearing more about how JWST's instruments are being 
leveraged to characterize planets in our own Solar System as 
well as distant exoplanets.
    NASA's Great Observatories have not only expanded our 
frontiers into the universe, but they have also inspired 
students and people across the world.
    That's a topic about which I'm equally passionate because 
inspiration is a catalyst for innovation. Our future lies in 
the next generation of Americans, and I hope JWST will inspire 
them to continue our leadership and global collaboration in 
space science and exploration.
    I want to thank our witnesses again for taking the time to 
share what they have learned so far from JWST, and for pointing 
us to the exciting science that lies ahead.
    Finally, before I close, I would like to congratulate NASA 
and its contractor team on the successful launch of the Space 
Launch System early this morning. It is a stunning achievement, 
and I am looking forward to following the progress of the 
Artemis 1 mission to the moon over the coming days.
    Thank you, and I yield back.

    Chairman Beyer. Let me begin our first round of 
questioning. Dr. Batalha, you talked about the photochemistry 
being necessary for life on Earth, and so we've made the leap 
of faith that photochemistry is necessary for life in general. 
Can we really say that? Do--is it not possible to imagine non-
water-based life on other planets?
    Dr. Batalha. We only have one example of life, so we're 
going on what we know. But the rise of complexity in the 
universe takes a certain form. I mean, the very elements that 
are required for life are the very elements that the universe 
creates in most abundance. It's also the case that life 
harnesses energy to do work, to maintain itself, to evolve to 
grow, and so it needs an energy source. So the way that the 
host star interacts with the planet is a synergy. It's a 
symbiosis that is probably very common to the rise of 
complexity and to the rise of life.
    Could it be--is it certain that that's the only pathway for 
creating life? No. But it is true that whatever pathway that 
is, it's going to require energy. It's going to harness energy 
to do work to maintain itself. That's a fundamental law of 
physics that we can't escape.
    Chairman Beyer. Great. Great. Thank you very much. That's 
the best explanation yet that I've heard.
    Dr. Finkelstein, those stars you showed us that are so old, 
bright, don't have the dense materials, is it safe to assume 
they're long since dead?
    Dr. Finkelstein. Yes, absolutely. That's correct. The most 
massive stars burn through their fuel so quickly, they live 
only a few million years at most. So we sort of caught them at 
a glimpse in time when they were shining very brightly.
    Chairman Beyer. On the whole issue of inflation--matter, 
antimatter coming into being--this rapid expansion, are we 
understanding that? And are there any insights on inflation 
that have come from JWST so far?
    Dr. Finkelstein. Not yet at this point. Inflation is 
happening at a very, very, very early epoch, the--essentially, 
the instant right after the Big Bang. One of the things we can 
learn from studying the galaxies that come a while later, a few 
100 million years later, is whether the abundance of galaxies, 
the masses of galaxies are consistent with our idea of what we 
call a cold dark matter cosmology. So is there anything that we 
have seen yet to break that idea? And so far, it seems like you 
can explain what we see with ideas that we've had in the past. 
You don't need to actually fundamentally change cosmology, but 
again, we've only had a few months with these data, and a small 
amount of of data has come in, so I would say stay tuned.
    Chairman Beyer. Very cool. Thank you.
    Dr. Clampin, what is reionization, and why is that 
important? Microphone, Dr. Clampin.
    Dr. Clampin. Sorry. So reionization is when the first stars 
started to form in the universe and essentially ionize the 
intergalactic medium or, you know, the medium that was present 
at that time. So it's a very important stage because it's the 
epoch when the first stars and galaxies started to form and 
change the nature of the universe.
    Chairman Beyer. Cool. Very cool. Dr. Finkelstein, you 
mentioned dark matter. I know it's been in a lot of the popular 
science recently that maybe that dark matter has been hiding 
inside the many more black holes that are out there than we 
thought. Is there anything that we're seeing in JWST that would 
give credence to that thought?
    Dr. Finkelstein. Not so far, but one of the most exciting 
things to come with the spectroscopy that we'll be obtaining in 
the next months to several years is it will give us our first 
chance to look at the formation of the earliest black holes in 
the universe. We know that, today, all galaxies have 
supermassive black holes at their center, but it's really 
challenging to grow black holes that large. And so we should, 
we think, see evidence of them growing in these very early 
galaxies. And that's hard to see in the images alone, but you 
can see it with the spectroscopy.
    Chairman Beyer. Dr. Batalha, you're an astrobiology expert. 
I've heard tell that if you ask a roomful of scientists how 
many believe that there is other life in the universe, every 
hand would go up. Is this something that you have to--is that 
the leap of faith you make before you commit yourself to 
astrobiology?
    Dr. Batalha. I think that's true. I myself believe that 
life has to be out there because, I mean, complexity arises in 
the universe. It should arise everywhere. I think the 
fundamental question is how frequent is life and is intelligent 
life common? That's a very different question. If I had to 
posit a guess, which scientists don't like to do because we'd 
like to have evidence, but if I had to posit a guess, I would 
guess that living worlds are common. And by that I mean 
microbial life. Whether or not it evolves into intelligent life 
is another question. And I'm not so sure if intelligent life is 
going to be common or rare, but we know how to find out.
    Chairman Beyer. Great, great. Thank you very much. I 
appreciate all of it.
    And let me introduce the Ranking Member of the Committee, 
Dr. Babin.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you. Very, very, very fascinating 
information.
    Dr. Clampin, JWST was apparently hit by some 
micrometeorites after deployment. I also noticed this morning 
that NASA announced a new strategy to minimize future damage to 
the spacecraft. What impact did those strikes have? Can it be 
quantified at this point? What--were the impacts greater than 
planned? Is JWST more susceptible than expected? And is there 
anything that can be done from an operational standpoint that 
can mitigate the risk of these micrometeorite impacts? And 
would those modified operations impact the planned science? I 
know--and I can repeat this. But if you could answer some of 
those, I'm very curious to hear--to see what what you all had 
planned before and what you have planned in the future.
    Dr. Clampin. So to date, we've seen I think 14 
micrometeorite impacts, and the majority of them are what we 
call very low energy. We've seen one which has significantly 
higher energy, and I'll come back to that in a minute. But when 
we design the telescope, we designed all the science 
requirements to what we call the end of life, assuming that in 
that environment there would be micrometeorite strikes. And we 
have a very detailed model that's provided by the Marshall 
Space Flight Center for the environment at second Lagrangian 
Point where the telescope's operating. So we knew that we were 
going to see micrometeorite strikes and built that expectation 
into the performance for the end of life so that we will get to 
the end of 5 years, which is the nominal lifetime, with an 
operational telescope that was still producing the science 
requirements.
    As I said, you know, we've seen 14. One of them was a 
little bit of a surprise in that it seemed to happen--it was 
higher energy than expected based on the model, and we think 
that that may have actually hit a piece of the mirror, which 
produced a more significant effect than the rest of them. That 
said, because the telescope is comprised of 18 individual 
segments with each of them having 6 degrees of freedom and an 
additional degree that allows us to change focus, we've been 
able to compensate for the impact that that particular 
micrometeorite had. And so--but we are still returning image 
quality that's much better than we originally expected from the 
requirements.
    In order to make sure that we are playing it as safe as 
possible, we are looking at operational changes for the second 
cycle science where we avoid pointing the telescope in the 
direction where micrometeorites would have a sort of direct, 
normal impact on the mirror. And this is really just going to 
affect when in the year people's science gets done. So you can 
look at objects, you know, twice a year, and it just depends on 
how you schedule the science. So we're not expecting any major 
scientific impacts. And for very special targets that we may 
need to point into the RAM, we will, you know, make--you know, 
provide a waiver to do that.
    So I think the answer to your question is we expected this, 
and we're being very conservative and making some operational 
changes to make sure that we minimize any future impacts.
    Mr. Babin. OK, thank you very much. And a question for all. 
JWST is arguably the most powerful and advanced space telescope 
in operation. China, however, is planning to launch a space 
telescope next year that will co-orbit with their space station 
in low-Earth orbit. How does this telescope compare to Hubble, 
JWST, Roman, or other great observatories? And what are the 
advantages and disadvantages of a co-orbiting observatory in 
low-Earth orbit?
    Dr. Clampin. I can take that one. So I don't know a lot 
about that particular telescope, but I can say a couple of 
things. First of all, you always worry about the contamination 
environment around a space station, which can, you know, result 
in residue or volatiles getting onto the primary mirror, that 
it potentially impacts your ability to do science in the far 
ultraviolet. That said, otherwise I think, you know, 
potentially the performance is likely to be similar to that of 
Hubble in the visible, you know, imaging bands----
    Mr. Babin. OK.
    Dr. Clampin [continuing]. Given that it's in low-Earth 
orbit,
    Mr. Babin. Dr. Finkelstein or Dr. Batalha?
    Dr. Batalha. Congressman Babin, I don't really know a lot 
about the platform, so I can't do--I can't offer in detail----
    Mr. Babin. OK.
    Dr. Batalha [continuing]. Detailed comments about the 
comparison. Sorry.
    Mr. Babin. Thank you.
    Dr. Finkelstein. Same for me.
    Mr. Babin. OK. Thank you, and I'll just yield back. My 
time's up.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Dr. Babin.
    And we now recognize the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. 
Norcross.
    Mr. Norcross. Thank you, Chairman. And I'd like to thank 
the witnesses for being here and keeping my curiosity of the 
world alive. It's why I enjoy so much this Subcommittee.
    So not to be a buzzkill on this, but the issue comes to the 
mechanics. We're seeing where and--the potential of where we're 
going. Are all the systems, Dr. Clampin, up and operating as 
expected today?
    Dr. Clampin. Yes, JW is operating exactly as we expected it 
to operate. And as we have said, it's exceeding many of the 
requirements--science requirements that we built it to.
    Mr. Norcross. Are there items that are on schedule to be 
looked at further or newer in the operational life of this that 
you want to get done now, that because of what might happen 
will not be as effective in five years?
    Dr. Clampin. No, I think we're going to take the approach 
of--as we have done with Hubble in the past, having a 
competition every year called the proposal cycle. And a peer 
review panel will select the very best ideas, and we will 
basically do those programs with the telescope, making sure 
that we get the best possible ideas each year done and those 
science programs completed.
    Mr. Norcross. OK. So being first, other than to answer 
those questions, is not a mechanical issue of something that 
will be done? Great.
    Dr. Clampin. No.
    Mr. Norcross. So what are the potential issues or, as I 
say, what keeps you up at night on this telescope?
    Dr. Clampin. So we built this telescope and tested it 
extensively on the ground. And most--I'll be honest, most of 
the issues that kept me up at night were the initial 
deployments and the whole process of commissioning the 
telescope and getting it to the point it is today. Right now, 
I'm very comfortable with the way the telescope's operating, 
and I think, as you've seen from the science results that have 
been presented, that we're really very happy with the way it's 
operating.
    You also may be aware that the initial launch was extremely 
precise and put us into an orbit that allowed us to minimize 
the expenditure of propellant, so we are anticipating something 
like a 20-year lifetime based on what we call the consumables, 
which is the propellant that are needed to, first of all, keep 
it in its orbit at L-2, and second, just to do what we call 
desaturate the momentum wheels every few days. So right now, 
we're very comfortable with the way the telescope's operating.
    Mr. Norcross. Would you be comfortable saying that you had 
exceeded all the the expected outcomes that this telescope is 
going to do?
    Dr. Clampin. I would certainly be comfortable. And I'll 
give you one example. I mean, our image quality, which is 
defined in terms of what's called a wavefront error, was--when 
we've got the commissioning done, we were basically at half the 
wavefront error that we expected to be at. And what that means 
is sharper images, better sensitivity. And you combine that 
with the pointing, which came in at 1 milliard second versus 
the requirement of 7, and you have a telescope that's more 
sensitive with sharper images than we had anticipated.
    Mr. Norcross. One of the core obligations we have is 
oversight. And we quite often hear in government how things 
don't work. I just want to say thank you for exceeding our 
expectations, and let's continue on. With that, I yield back.
    Chairman Beyer. OK. Thank you, Mr. Norcross, very much.
    I'd now like to introduce the Congressman who last night 
had the most important congressional district in the country, 
Mr. Posey.
    Mr. Posey. Thank you, Chairman Beyer, for holding yet 
another exciting Committee meeting, and thank you to the 
panelists for your fascinating testimony. This has got to be 
the most enjoyable Committee in Congress.
    Dr. Clampin, I represent, as Chairman said, the Space Coast 
Kennedy Space Center. So James Webb was launched last year from 
Kourou in French Guiana aboard an Ariane 5 launch vehicle and 
fantastic launch. I applaud the accomplishment. But just--I'm 
wondering going forward, are we going to launch any future 
observations on foreign soil or are we going to use U.S. soil?
    Dr. Clampin. So let me start by just congratulating you on 
a great launch from the Kennedy Space Center last night, and 
it's really thrilling to see Artemis finally get off the ground 
and roaring into life. In answer to your question, we live in a 
very different world now where there are lots of different U.S. 
commercial launch opportunities, including a number which 
provide us with new capabilities that we're definitely thinking 
of as we look at the Astro2020 decadal survey. But just to give 
you a couple of examples, the Roman Space Telescope will launch 
on a Falcon Heavy and many of our SMD missions are now 
launching on U.S. launches. So my expectation is we will take 
advantage of the new U.S. launch capabilities that have been 
provided to us.
    Mr. Posey. Thank you very much. Dr. Batalha, I hope I 
didn't mess it up too badly. Can you walk us through the 
process of gaining observation time for James Webb, you know, 
how its organized? Is it any different than other 
observatories, or do you have any thoughts on how it's working 
so far?
    Dr. Batalha. Yes, absolutely. It follows the same model 
that was used by the Hubble Space Telescope and actually many 
ground-based observatories as well. It's highly competitive, as 
you can imagine. The scientific community writes proposals, 
submits them. There are experts who agree to serve on a 
committee to review those proposals. It's a blind review, so 
you don't see the person who's leading that team. You don't see 
their name, and that's meant to mitigate biases that the review 
committee might have.
    I've served on both the Telescope Allocation Committee and 
on the Executive Committee of that process, and I can say that 
it's very thoughtful with regards to technical feasibility and 
the impact of the science and balancing the portfolio of the 
telescope.
    Mr. Posey. All of you comment on this if you would, how the 
James Webb will contribute to our understanding of the 
supermassive black holes compared to what we learned from 
Hubble.
    Dr. Finkelstein. Absolutely, so as I mentioned, you know, 
we have reason to believe that these black holes are forming 
and growing in the early universe. And black holes can be 
tricky to see. They don't emit light themselves, so you have to 
find black holes that are either interacting gravitationally so 
you can see motions, which is also very difficult, or that are 
actively accreting gas. And as that gas spirals into the black 
hole and the black hole gobbles it up and grows in mass, it 
gets quite hot, and that light can escape. And that process is 
very energetic, and so there are unique signatures that you 
could see in a spectrum. And so this is, I think, one of the 
most exciting things I'm looking forward to in the next month 
is some of those are going to be very obvious signatures, and 
we'll know right away, yes or no, there are black holes growing 
in these galaxies.
    If we don't see those signatures, that might be even more 
exciting because you still have to make these big black holes 
by today. And if our best idea is that they kind of slowly grow 
throughout the universe is sort of disproven, then there are 
more exotic scenarios such as maybe the early universe makes 
modest-sized black holes in what we would call a direct 
collapse black hole scenario. You can make a black hole out of 
a pocket of gas that's a million times the mass of the sun, so 
you're already kind of making baby supermassive black holes 
early on. And maybe--if that's the case, maybe there are ideas 
about how we might be able to see those in some of the deepest 
imaging that's upcoming with JWST. And so no answers yet, but I 
think in the very near future we'll have either either good 
answers or good additional questions.
    Mr. Posey. You mentioned the universe being 13.9 billion 
years old. What was before that?
    Dr. Finkelstein. My favorite answer to that is your guess 
is as good as mine. A more technical answer which I don't like 
is that the concept of time only exists as long as the universe 
exists, so there was no before. We can measure very precisely 
the evolution of the universe as long as the universe has been 
around. We can measure very precisely the age of 13.82 billion 
years. Why the universe began, what came before if there is 
even a concept as before, that we don't know. And it's very 
hard to test because to do science, we need to make 
observations to test our theories, and we only have the 
universe that we live in right now.
    Mr. Posey. And beyond the universe?
    Dr. Finkelstein. The universe is infinite as best we can 
tell, and so there is no beyond the universe.
    Mr. Posey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Mr. Posey, very much.
    Now let me recognize Congress' greatest champion for travel 
to Mars, the gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Perlmutter.
    Mr. Perlmutter. Thanks, Mr. Chair. And I want to thank the 
panel and all your colleagues for your persistence and your 
perseverance with this project because it had a few ups and 
downs over the course of its life. And I want to thank this 
Committee for its patience because the scientific product--
products that have come from this, are just remarkable.
    So, Dr. Batalha, I want to start with you. How do you 
choose what exoplanets you're going to study? I mean, there's--
you've said there's a whole bunch of them, but you picked 70. 
And then I'm going to talk to you, Dr. Finkelstein. How do you 
choose what galaxies you want to look at?
    Dr. Batalha. Great question. There are over 5,000 
exoplanets that we know of, but not all of them are bright 
enough for us to study their atmospheres, even with Webb. So 
there is a NASA mission called TESS, which is doing an all-sky 
survey to find transiting exoplanets that are near the solar 
system. Those are the ones for which we can get really good 
precision, part-per-million precision, to see these bumps and 
wiggles in the spectrum that are telling us about the presence 
of molecules. So the list gets whittled down. There are still 
hundreds even after that, many hundreds. And so you look at the 
kind of science questions that you want to answer.
    There is an exoplanet or a star called TRAPPIST-1 that is 
very close to us that harbors seven exoplanets orbiting it, 
three of which are in the habitable zone, orbit in the 
habitable zone. So you can imagine that we are spending a good 
deal of time observing those planets. That's going to be a high 
priority target.
    Mr. Perlmutter. So how do you and your colleagues choose 
who's going to study what planet? How do you share 
information----
    Dr. Batalha. Yes.
    Mr. Perlmutter [continuing]. Among all of this? I mean, 
how--is it open? Is it closed? Is it, you know, I got planet X, 
you got planet Y, we don't talk to each other?
    Dr. Batalha. Yes, it's a little of both. For the Early 
Release Science program back in 2016 I started an open 
committee. It was open to everybody who wanted to participate. 
We have over 300 scientists who participated in that process in 
order to create a truly grassroots strategic plan for what the 
very first exoplanets we would observe should be. So that was 
an open process. The data is nonproprietary. Anybody who wants 
to participate can. It's truly open science. And that's been a 
very valuable exercise for how we do science.
    Mr. Perlmutter. Great. Dr. Finkelstein?
    Dr. Finkelstein. Yes, thank you. So first, I also want to 
acknowledge the large number of people that made this possible, 
including the CEERS team, not quite 300. We have about 200 
scientists in our team and of course the engineers that made 
this telescope possible and the people doing the work, which is 
usually the junior scientists, the graduate students and 
postdocs.
    So how did we decide what galaxies to see? Well, we didn't 
know these galaxies. We're discovering them. So we're doing 
what we call blank field astronomy, which was a wild idea first 
tested out in the mid-1990's with the Hubble Deep Field. The 
Hubble Deep Field was kind of a bold idea to point at what we 
thought was an empty place in the sky, spend a couple hundred 
hours observing, and see what you find. And I think many people 
thought you would find nothing, and it turns out you see the 
universe is filled with galaxies. And that's become a very 
useful strategy. Now we know that there are galaxies pretty 
much no matter where you look.
    So then the next question is, why did we look at this 
particular place in the sky known as the extended growth strip, 
and the reason why is that Hubble had looked at it before. And 
the Hubble data is very, very useful for the JWST data. Hubble 
has the visible wavelength data that is crucial to combine with 
our infrared data.
    And finally, one key part of our Early Release Science 
program in particular is we're using multiple instruments with 
JWST, and we want them all to overlap the same place on the 
sky. And it turns out with a sort of fate of geometry, this 
extended growth strip field is kind of a strip in the sky, and 
JWST can look at that strip at just the right angle to allow 
the instruments to overlap. So it's a nice combination of 
things that allow us to point here.
    Mr. Perlmutter. Thank you. And, Dr. Clampin, last question. 
As you built the telescope--and, you know, there were a few 
hiccups along the way--what would you do differently today if 
you were going to build another telescope like this?
    Dr. Clampin. So I can spend hours talking about this, but I 
helped chair a NASA study called the Large Mission Study, and I 
was the person who put together the plans for how we would 
formulate the next mission differently. So the first and most 
important one, I think, is you need to focus on schedule from 
the beginning. You also need to get the technologies to--fully 
matured before you start actually designing the mission. And I 
don't just mean, you know, six or seven individual miracles. 
You have to remember that those miracles have to work together. 
So the biggest challenge on these very large missions is the 
system, not the individual technologies. So think about that, 
and make sure you don't overdo the science requirements and you 
keep focus on the key science that you want to do, and I think 
that's the path to success.
    Mr. Perlmutter. All right. Thank you. I yield back to the 
Chair. Thank you.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Mr. Perlmutter, very much.
    I will recognize the gentlelady from California, Ms. Kim.
    Ms. Kim. Thank you, Chairman. And I want to thank all of 
our witnesses for joining us today.
    Gosh, I also want to echo my colleagues in congratulating 
NASA for the launch of Artemis 1 and how exciting it was. I was 
there the first time when we thought we were launching it. 
Fourth time is a great charm.
    This launch truly marks the new era of space exploration 
for the United States and its international partners, and I'm 
looking forward to the future Artemis and NASA eventually 
landing astronauts on the Moon.
    The James Webb Space Telescope was years in the making, as 
we all know, and it's really exciting to see, you know, how, 
despite all the, you know, challenges that we faced in the 
development, we saw last Christmas a wonderful gift that, you 
know, as we watched the James Webb Space Telescope finally 
launching ESA's Ariane 5 rocket. And early this year, the world 
watched as NASA released James Webb's first fully developed 
image of Cosmic Cliffs in the Carina Nebula, so exciting.
    So I want to congratulate NASA, ESA, and CSA, and their 
many partners for the success of your mission. And while there 
are many lessons still to be learned from telescopes 
development, I'm pleased that we're taking this opportunity to 
examine and celebrate the scientific achievements of the James 
Webb Space Telescope and to hear more about the telescope's 
future observations.
    And I want to start with Dr. Clampin. I want you to know 
that much of my key focus on this Committee is STEM (science, 
technology, engineering, and mathematics) engagement. So can 
you speak to the STEM engagement opportunities that this JWST 
has provided NASA with, and can you specifically talk about 
NASA's K through 12 engagement?
    Dr. Clampin. So we have had a very active and vigorous STEM 
program from the very beginning of JWST. And you can see from 
the engagement of the public, you know, there's this, you know, 
iconic image of somebody standing in Times Square taking a 
picture of a JWST image as it comes up on the display. So we 
are heavily invested in every stage of STEM education. And the 
great thing about astronomy and astrophysics is it's a very 
accessible science for all ages, and so it's really good for 
bringing in young people into STEM careers and getting them 
engaged. We also at NASA have a very vigorous, you know, 
education support program, and I'd be happy to get you more 
information on that.
    Ms. Kim. Great. You know, why much of the mission of JWST 
is to examine what is beyond our solar system, we were amazed 
by the clearest image of Jupiter that we've ever taken. So can 
you describe JWST's observation of Jupiter, what it has taught 
us and--about our own solar system? Yes.
    Dr. Clampin. So the--for me, the observation of Jupiter was 
amazing because we spent a large amount of time trying to 
figure out how we would observe something as bright as Jupiter 
without completely saturating the--all the sensors. In fact--
point of fact, it turned out that our calculations had really 
been, you know, spot on and we were able to take images of 
Jupiter.
    So it's--most of the science that JWST will do in this 
field is more in the form of long-term monitoring, you know, 
understanding what's going on in the atmosphere of Jupiter and 
tracking it over time. So the first image is just the first 
step in a long program of tracking what's going on with the 
atmosphere of Jupiter.
    The other part that's also very interesting, and there are 
a number of programs approaching this, to study the moons of 
Jupiter and also the other gas giant Saturn. And it's the 
infrared opportunities and the ability to do infrared 
spectroscopy of their atmospheres that, you know, present 
really interesting opportunities. And those observations are 
still to come.
    Ms. Kim. Valuable, valuable lessons and observations. Thank 
you so much. It looks like I'm running out of time, so I'll 
yield back.
    Chairman Beyer. Great.
    Ms. Kim. Thank you.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you very much. Let me recognize the 
gentleman from Florida, Mr. Webster, for his questions.
    Mr. Webster. Yes, I got here a little late, but--and maybe 
it's been asked, but how do you determine within vast amount of 
space and what--how do you determine the initial direction that 
you're going to point the telescope and take a picture, and how 
deep do you go? How do you determine that? Anybody?
    Dr. Finkelstein. Yes, so for distant galaxies, it sort of 
really doesn't matter where we point. There's a variety of 
factors. You want a place that has the longest observability 
window. As Dr. Clampin said, you can't look everywhere at all 
times. Sometimes the Sun is in the way, things like that. And 
you want places that are sort of pointing out of the plane of 
the solar system and out of the plane of the galaxy because you 
don't want a lot of dust that's in our solar system in the way 
called zodiacal light. And you don't want light from stars. We 
don't, for our galaxy surveys.
    And then for how long you observe, that's always critical. 
When we write these proposals that Dr. Batalha was talking 
about, it's crucial to have a very good estimate of how much 
time. You can't just sort of say, oh, we think we need 10 or 20 
hours. You need to say we know. And so NASA has developed tools 
to estimate the sensitivity before launch of the telescope, and 
we have some idea of the faintness of the galaxies we want to 
see. And this calculation tells us here's how long you think--
we think you should observe. And then we take it one step 
further now. NASA has also helped develop excellent data 
simulation tools. And so you can say, OK, let's say this 
exposure time tool said you need 2 hours. Let's actually 
simulate the data. Do we actually see the galaxies in those 2 
hours? And we did that process for our Early Release Science 
proposal to show that, yes, we can actually do it. And then--so 
it turns out that the telescope was working even better than 
expected so we can see a little bit fainter than we thought we 
were going to.
    Mr. Webster. So do you--so you have a--is it mapped out 
already in where you're headed and what you're doing and where 
you're staying and how long you're going to look and all of 
that? Is that something that's mapped out ahead of time?
    Dr. Finkelstein. So it's a year-by-year process, and so the 
telescope is currently executing at cycle 1 observations, and 
proposals for the next year called cycle 2 are going to be due 
at the end of January, and so sort of a year-by-year process.
    Mr. Webster. Well, that's very, very interesting. So once 
you--but how far ahead are you? I mean, what are you--are you 
just a year ahead in that you've done one year, you've done 
another year, and you won't do it the next year until you 
finish this second year?
    Dr. Finkelstein. Yes, we're sort of close to the midway 
point of that first year of observations, not quite there, and 
so there is some amount of multiyear planning. Eventually, the 
Hubble Space Telescope got to a mode where they did accept 
multiyear proposals, and JWST may eventually get to that point. 
But right now, there is so much exciting science to do, we want 
to try and get as many, you know, observations in covering as 
many targets as possible, and then we can start to think here 
are some maybe longer-term ideas that you might want to do.
    Mr. Webster. So if you find something that's interesting, 
do you still just move on or do you stay?
    Dr. Finkelstein. Usually, you have to propose for the next 
year. There--I will say--I mentioned we're getting spectroscopy 
next month. Part of that is a particular type of observation 
called a director's discretionary time proposal, where if you 
find something exciting, you can kind of appeal to the director 
of the Space Telescope Science Institute, and they have an 
amount of time they can give out for--I like to call it 
emergency time, really exciting observations. Often, it's 
exploding objects like supernovae that are fading. You really 
need to get to them. In this case, it's a really exciting 
distant galaxy. We'd like to know if it truly is the distance 
we think it is.
    Mr. Webster. I have other questions, but I don't know what 
they are. Thank you so much.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Mr. Webster. We will do a second 
round if it occurs to you after Ms. Bonamici.
    Ms. Bonamici, you're recognized.
    Ms. Bonamici. Thank you, Chair Beyer, Ranking Member Babin, 
and thank you to our witnesses for your expertise and your 
testimony.
    I'll join my colleagues in congratulating NASA on the 
successful Artemis launch.
    This has been a very exciting and certainly thought-
provoking hearing this morning. We know that space exploration 
has played such a pivotal role in uniting our country and our 
world but also in broadening our understanding of our place in 
the universe, inspiring future generations of scientists. And I 
think back to July when the first images came out. And I know 
you've mentioned a couple of times the Times Square display and 
really how stellar those--I guess, pun intended--photographs 
were and continue to be.
    And I want to, of course, acknowledge not only the Federal 
investment but the more than I think 300 universities and all 
the participation and partnerships that made this happen. 
We've--I've discovered certainly over the years on this 
Committee that we've had many discussions about how do we 
increase the appreciation among our constituents and people in 
the country and around the globe of the work, of the science. 
How do we get--pique interest in further studies? And how do we 
make sure that our communication with with the public gets 
across the importance of what's happening?
    And so I know Representative Kim asked about education. I 
wanted to first ask our professors Dr. Finkelstein and Dr. 
Batalha. You're both professors. What have been your 
experiences since the successful photographs started coming out 
in July? How has this changed among your students, among 
prospective students? Has it changed their views? And what 
programs should we engage in to make sure that--invest in to 
make sure we're engaging students to further their careers in 
science?
    Dr. Batalha. Great question. The data, the images, the 
scientific discovery is so inherently alluring. It's very easy 
to talk about it with our youngsters. I've spoken to elementary 
school students, to Girl Scouts and high school students and 
people in community colleges and the public. And everybody is 
just, you know, eyes like saucers.
    I think that science, you know, you need to communicate the 
wonder of it and how it maps to meaning, what it means to be a 
human. For me, I got a late start in science because I couldn't 
map the science to scientific discovery. It's hard to 
understand that feeling of scientific discovery and how 
absolutely joyful it is. Carl Sagan called it a kind of ecstasy 
when you have that deep understanding.
    So taking these images out into the public, you know, I 
showed the deep field and I told the public when I look at that 
image, I marvel at how much life might--must be captured in all 
those galaxies, you know, thousands of galaxies and billions of 
billions of stars.
    So I think that's what we need to do. Of course, you also 
need the rigor of the classes, the coursework to go along with 
it----
    Ms. Bonamici. Sure.
    Dr. Batalha [continuing]. And mathematics showing the joy 
and fun of mathematics and science curriculum is also extremely 
important.
    Ms. Bonamici. I'm going to ask Dr. Finkelstein to go into a 
related direction. If we want to maximize--and I'll ask this to 
Dr. Clampin as well. If we want to maximize the scientific 
return from James Webb, what types of skill sets and 
educational background do we need? And right now, do we have 
the--is the research community well-positioned for working with 
all the data that's coming in?
    Dr. Finkelstein. Yes, that's a great question. So I think 
space sells itself. It's really easy to get anyone interested 
in it because it's so amazing. For me, it's really about trying 
to chase our origins, the ultimate origins of where the Milky 
Way galaxy came from.
    We need students in the STEM sector, and space really 
inspires students to go that route. Some of those students 
choose to go into astrophysics, and that's fantastic. And then 
we get to work with them at universities. And something that 
has become more and more common over the last decade or so is 
more undergraduates participating in research. And so we have a 
number of undergraduates that are working with us on these 
data, and I know that's true around the country and around the 
world. And that gets them the real experience of what it's like 
to be an astronomer and to make discoveries and have those aha 
moments and really say, oh, this is something that I could 
actually do for a living.
    Ms. Bonamici. That's great. And I--it looks like I'm just 
about out of time, but, Dr. Clampin, if you have just a 
sentence, it'd be helpful.
    Dr. Clampin. I would just say one of the things I find 
really inspirational is a lot of my students that--when I was 
at the Goddard Space Flight Center were inspired to join NASA 
because of what we did with Hubble. And we will do the same 
with James Webb.
    Ms. Bonamici. Terrific. Thank you. And as I yield back, Mr. 
Chairman, because I can't stay for a second round, I just want 
to mention the importance of diversifying the work force and 
making sure that the opportunity to work in this field is 
available, especially to those historically left behind. And I 
yield back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you, Ms. Bonamici, very much.
    I now ask unanimous consent on the Committee to wave on Ms. 
Stansbury for--without objection. Let me now recognize online 
Ms. Stansbury for her questions.
    Ms. Stansbury. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman, and thank 
you to the Committee for letting me participate today. As folks 
have noted already on this hearing this morning, we're not only 
celebrating the findings of the Webb Telescope, but also the 
successful launch of Artemis 1. And as a woman in STEM, I want 
to just note that it's being led by an amazing group of women, 
including Charlie Blackwell-Thompson, who is the first woman 
ever in American history to oversee a NASA countdown and 
launch. And so this is long overdue in history-making, along 
with all of the scientific discoveries that we're talking about 
this morning. And I do want to add to the chorus of everyone 
who's been working on the Webb Telescope and the science that's 
coming out of it.
    After three decades of bipartisan work, dedicated 
collaboration by our extraordinary scientists and engineers at 
NASA, our space industries, and of course scientists across the 
world, this amazing telescope launched last December. And I 
want to say on a personal note, I was among the millions of 
people who stayed up late through the night and into the 
morning on Christmas morning to watch the launch of this 
telescope and had the extraordinary opportunity when I was 
working on space policy at OMB (Office of Management and 
Budget) as a staffer to actually see the assembly of the 
telescope at Goddard. And so it's really been an exciting 
journey to see the telescope launch and everything that's 
coming out of it.
    In my home State of New Mexico, which is a powerhouse in 
science, technology, and aerospace, we could not be more 
excited about the Webb Telescope and what it's teaching us 
about the origins of the universe and our place in it, but also 
helping to inspire the next generation of scientists and 
researchers who are not only engaged in this work, but also the 
students who we've been talking about this morning who are 
inspired by what we're finding from this project.
    In particular, Professor Tony Hull, who's a Professor at 
the University of New Mexico, was part of the team that helped 
to polish the telescope's mirrors, which are bringing these 
extraordinary images back to us, and other scientists at our 
major flagship university, including Professor Dragomir, who's 
working as part of a team to explore exoplanets and unique 
phenomenon outside of our solar system.
    As we've been discussing this morning, the discoveries of 
this telescope not only will tell us more about the universe 
and our place in it but are helping to excite and energize a 
whole new generation of aerospace engineers and scientists and 
thinkers about the universe. And so I want to use the remainder 
of my time to ask each of our three panelists two questions. 
The first is what are you personally most excited about and 
surprised about what we're learning from the telescope? And the 
second is what is the next chapter of exploration? What is 
the--what are we learning from the Webb project that is telling 
us where we need to extend the frontiers of science and 
knowledge? So starting with Dr. Clampin, maybe could you share 
your thoughts on what are you personally most excited and 
surprised about and what the next chapter is?
    Dr. Clampin. So I've been most excited by the transmission 
spectra from exoplanets that Dr. Batalha showed. I think 
they're really exciting, and I'm looking forward to seeing 
observations that the TRAPPIST-1 system come in.
    As far as where we go next, I think the next big challenge 
is the search for life. And I talked briefly in my initial 
remarks about how we will address the decadal survey, the 
National Academies Decadal Survey, by trying to build a 6 meter 
or more space telescope that will look for habitable exoplanets 
around solar-type stars and then characterize them to look for 
evidence of life. So that's kind of where I think we're going 
next.
    Ms. Stansbury. Thank you. And Dr. Finkelstein?
    Dr. Finkelstein. So I think for the near future what I'm 
most excited about is to look even deeper. The Early Release 
Science images I've shown you, they're very shallow. They're 
less than an hour of exposure time. And in cycle 1, there are a 
number of deeper programs, including a public deep field called 
NGDEEP (Next Generation Deep Extragalactic Exploratory Public) 
that will be observed at the beginning of February. And so soon 
we will have the JWST equivalent of the Hubble Ultra Deep 
Field.
    Into the future, in the not-too-distant future I'm 
extremely excited about the potential of the Nancy Grace Roman 
Space Telescope. One of the exciting things we're finding is 
that the early universe has big, bright galaxies, and that 
telescope, although it has a smaller mirror than JWST, has a 
much larger camera. It's optimized for finding these massive, 
rare beasts in the early universe, and it's going to be 
fantastic to have that capability very soon.
    Ms. Stansbury. Amazing. And Dr. Batalha?
    Dr. Batalha. Yes, I will echo what Dr. Clampin said, but I 
wanted to add one thing about the exoplanets. The most common 
type of planet known to humanity right now is a kind of planet 
we don't even have in our own solar system. It's intermediate 
to the rocky terrestrials and the big gas giants. We call them 
super Earths or sub-Neptunes, but actually, we don't really 
understand their nature. Is this more real estate for life? 
That's a big question on our mind. And this is a class of 
planets that JWST will be able to characterize and shed light 
on exactly their nature. I'm very excited to see that happen.
    Ms. Stansbury. Amazing. Well, thank you all. And again, 
congratulations to NASA and to all of the teams who worked on 
this amazing project and for all of the exciting scientific 
discoveries yet to come. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
    Chairman Beyer. Congresswoman Stansbury, thank you very 
much.
    We'll now begin a second round of questions with Dr. Babin. 
And I--at least, me.
    Dr. Batalha, if you'll forgive me wandering a little bit, I 
think one of the most interesting questions in politics is does 
history have a direction? And I know it's sort of a 
metaphysical question, but I was really intrigued by your 
comments about increasing complexity and the universe coming 
together to continue to form the elements. You know, back at 
the beginning, I guess there's only hydrogen or--and now we 
have this incredible--and then combining that with Shannon's 
second law of information, that there is always more 
information in the universe in this instant than there was the 
instant before, along with the second law of thermodynamics, 
which talks about everything moving to the lowest energy state. 
How do you put that together--can you put that together in a 
way that suggests that the universe has a direction and that 
direction is complexity?
    Dr. Batalha. That's a very good question. We grapple with 
these questions. I think that they're fundamentally tied to how 
we see our place in the universe and how we find meaning. We 
observe this complexity arising. It seems very logical, like 
it's going to proceed the same way everywhere. The building 
blocks of life are in the galaxy. We see carbon dioxide, we see 
water molecules, we see this rise of complexity, even more 
complex molecules that reside in protoplanetary discs and in 
star formation clouds. So it seems very logical that life is 
just another step in that process.
    But you're asking a bigger question, which is what happens 
to life? What really is going to happen to us? Are we going to 
survive into the future? What does it look like if humans 
become spacefaring creatures? How does that affect our 
evolution, both cultural and biological? And those are 
questions that I can't answer. I don't even know if we will 
survive to the future or if that's a given. I don't know if the 
universe evolves toward goodness. These are all questions that 
I think are up to us.
    What I know is that we have the ability to affect that 
outcome, whether or not we survive to the future. And when we 
study planets and we understand the limits of habitability, we 
learn something about the sustainability of life right here on 
planet Earth. And that's one of the main motivators, I think, 
for studying exoplanets with JWST.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you for answering a difficult 
question. And thanks, too, for pointing out that there's a 
difference between the question is there life in the universe 
versus the question is there a consciousness, other 
consciousness in the universe? Very, very different potential 
answers.
    Dr. Batalha. Yes.
    Chairman Beyer. Dr. Finkelstein, you talked about--you 
showed the incredible picture of all those different galaxies 
across the bottom. They look like six or seven different 
varieties right there. Can you talk about the structure of 
galaxies? I mean, you know, we were used to thinking the Milky 
Way and the spiral galaxy, but it looks like there's more going 
on.
    Dr. Finkelstein. Yes, absolutely. So there are a wide range 
of morphological differences in galaxies, and I have a bias. I 
think the spiral ones are the most beautiful. And one of the 
amazing things about some of those small panels is you can 
actually pick out the star clusters, those tiny little knots or 
pearls in those galaxies. Those are clusters that have hundreds 
of thousands of stars just forming. And I didn't show you 
comparison, but if you look at the Hubble images of those 
galaxies, a lot of that detail is lost.
    And so one of the results I showed you in the written 
remarks I didn't have time in my statement was what we are 
already learning about the morphology of galaxies. And in fact, 
when we first made that big image, we actually put it on a huge 
30-foot television screen we have at the Texas Advanced 
Computing Center. And one of the things we realized is when you 
look at the small galaxies, you see some spirals. And because 
they look really small, they must be really far away. And with 
the Hubble Space Telescope, the limits of Hubble, we thought 
that once you get about 10 billion years or so into the past, 
you don't really see spiral galaxies anymore. Everything is 
kind of an irregular clump.
    But now with JWST we have the resolution. It turns out the 
spirals were there; we just could not see them. And so you see 
them out to redshifts of 2 and 3. You see barred spirals, these 
elongated features in the center similar to our own Milky Way 
Galaxy. We found the highest redshift barred spiral at a 
redshift of greater than 2, so that's over 10 billion years 
into the past. And we see evidence that galaxies have these 
ordered discs, these ordered rotational motions out to maybe 
even a billion years after the Big Bang. And if you ask some of 
the theoretical astrophysicists, they would say, oh, we knew 
that was there, you just couldn't see it before. But you never 
know until you look. And now we finally have the observations 
to prove it.
    Chairman Beyer. That's very cool. You're making me jealous 
talking about the 30-foot TV.
    One more question. I think maybe to--a question from Mr. 
Posey or one of my Republican friends, that what's beyond the 
universe? Typically, with thinking that the definition of the 
universe was as far as light has expanded, rather than being 
infinite, that it's still expanding into whatever is beyond it 
or nothing that's beyond it.
    Dr. Finkelstein. Yes, I just taught this earlier this week 
in my class. So that's the difference between the observable 
universe and the entire universe. So the universe has been 
around for a finite time, only 13.8 billion years, and so we 
can only see objects that were close enough that their light 
has been able to reach us in that period of time. But to our 
best understanding, that is not all there is. There is more 
universe out there that is inaccessible to us right now because 
the universe has not been around long enough for that light to 
travel to us.
    Chairman Beyer. Great. Thank you very much.
    I now recognize Mr. Babin for his questions.
    Mr. Babin. Absolutely fascinating. Thank you. I'm going to 
bring us back down to Earth for congressional oversight here, 
OK?
    Dr. Clampin, the Government Accountability Office, the NASA 
Inspector General, the National Academies of Science, and this 
Committee conducted a significant amount of oversight on the 
JWST program over the past 20 years. We've learned a lot about 
what to do and actually what not to do. As NASA continues with 
the development of the Roman telescope and begins to consider 
other follow-on observatories, what are the top three lessons 
learned from JWST that came out of all these reports, these 
audits, these investigations and independent reviews? If you 
could, I know that's digging deep, but if you could tell us 
some of the fruits of our labors up here.
    Dr. Clampin. So I think a lot of it comes down to how you 
formulate these missions at the very beginning, the phasing of 
how the different pieces get put together. One of the things we 
did on JWST, for instance, and, you know, some other programs 
is basically get too far along with the spacecraft or the--you 
know, the absolute mission design before we completed the 
instruments. So then, you know, we need to sort of make 
adjustments to accommodate the instruments. So the first thing 
for me is you make sure that all the technologies are at the 
required maturity level and that you understand how they're 
going to work in the architecture that you're formulating, so 
you really have to think about systems rather than individual 
boxes of technology.
    I also think the schedule is very important and trying to, 
you know, formulate and execute a mission to the schedule from 
the very beginning. And, you know, that's something that I'm 
very focused on doing for the next response--you know, as we 
respond to the National Academy, thinking about the next big, 
large mission, which is this--what I call habitable worlds 
observatory, you know, getting all the technologies mature and 
at the point where we understand how they work together as a 
system before we start formulating the design for the 
observatory. And then once we build--start building the 
observatory, we're really focused on building it to a schedule. 
So those are the two main things for me. You know, the the 
larger missions really require a systems-level focus, and 
making sure you understand everything before you sort of launch 
into it is very important.
    I'm now, as I'm sure you're aware, responsible for making 
sure that Roman comes in on schedule, and Roman's already well 
along. And one of the things that I'm doing there right now is 
just making sure that we're addressing, you know, issues that 
have arisen as we've come out of the pandemic, you know, work 
force issues and supply chain issues. And we've been working to 
put in place with our industry partners innovative approaches 
to addressing some of these so that we stay on schedule.
    Mr. Babin. Yes. Thank you for your service, too.
    A second question for you if you don't mind, Dr. Clampin. 
NASA paused JWST science observations using the MIRI (Mid-
Infrared Instrument) medium-resolution spectrometry (MRS) mode 
on August the 24th because of increased friction in one of its 
grating wheels. NASA concluded the issue was likely caused by 
increased contact forces between subcomponents of the wheeled 
central bearing assembly under certain conditions. NASA 
announced that it had developed and successfully tested a plan 
on November the 2nd and that it would resume MIRI MRS science 
observations on November the 12th starting with a unique 
opportunity to observe Saturn's polar regions just before they 
become unobservable by Webb for the next 20 years. Was NASA 
successful in implementing this plan? And how is MIRI MRS mode 
functioning now? And what level of confidence do you place on 
the issue being resolved and that it will not be an issue in 
the future?
    Dr. Clampin. So let me just assure you that, yes, we did 
get the observations of Saturn done, so I actually got an email 
late yesterday saying that they've been completed. We have a 
plan of incremental steps to bring the--this particular mode 
instrument--it is a mode, it's not the whole instrument----
    Mr. Babin. Yes.
    Dr. Clampin [continuing]. So we're bringing that back, you 
know, step by step, exercising the wheel, tracking all of the 
engineering telemetry, making sure we understand how it's 
performing as we return it to, you know, what I'll call normal 
service.
    Mr. Babin. OK, good. Thank you very much. And I'll yield 
back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you. And I now recognize the 
gentleman from Florida, Mr. Webster, if you have any additional 
questions.
    Mr. Webster. I think I do.
    Chairman Beyer. The floor is yours, sir.
    Mr. Webster. This is to anybody. There's one picture in 
here southern Ring Nebula? How wide--or what's the dimensions 
of that nebula?
    Dr. Clampin. I have to say I think we'd have to get back to 
you on that. Off the top of my head I do not recall----
    Mr. Webster. So would you know the dimensions of any of 
these photos as far as millions of miles, billions of miles, or 
maybe you don't even measure them in miles. I don't know.
    Dr. Clampin. I think most of them have that information in 
the comments that go with the plate. I mean, they're also very 
different ones. You know, a planetary nebula in our galaxy and 
others are very deep image of the sky. But we can get you that 
information.
    Mr. Webster. Great. So have you, among yourselves or among 
just the people that work on this, is there--do you take a poll 
and see what's the most fantastic display that's been or people 
have their own ideas or is there one that sticks out as just 
the most phenomenal discovery you've made?
    Dr. Clampin. So let me just come back to your last 
question. I'm told it's about .4 lightyears across, so that 
gives you some idea of the size.
    And in answer to your second question, I think it really 
depends who you ask. I'm sure Dr. Finkelstein and Dr. Batalha 
would have very different answers, and I probably would be 
closer to Dr. Batalha. So it really depends on what field you 
work in. Everybody's sort of waiting for their particular 
observation to get done or to work on the data that's been 
taken in their particular area of interest. And I think part of 
the, you know, happiness of the science community right now is 
that, you know, they're just getting to see what these 
observations look like and how this telescope's going to change 
their particular branch of astrophysics that they work in.
    Mr. Webster. So do you have a favorite?
    Dr. Clampin. My favorite, I think, is still on the calendar 
to be observed over the next 6 months, which is the TRAPPIST-1 
exoplanet system.
    Mr. Webster. How about anyone else?
    Dr. Batalha. Can I make one point that I alluded to 
earlier? You know, you're asking about the images, these 
beautiful images. Everything we know about the--well, almost 
everything we know about the universe is from the light we 
collect in our telescopes. And the great power of JWST is that 
it can take that light and spread it out into a rainbow. And in 
that rainbow, embedded inside of that are these chemical 
fingerprints, evidence of motion, dynamics, all kinds of 
information embedded in that spectrum. So I would contend that 
the most profound images if you will are actually these plots 
of these graphical representations of the spectra because they 
contain so many clues about the nature of the universe. So I 
love the images. I'm very inspired by the deep fields showing 
tens of thousands of galaxies, each with hundreds of billions 
of stars. And I look at that image and I wonder how much life 
is represented in that tiny little speck of, you know, grain of 
sand that's been imaged. But the spectra, I think, are 
extremely compelling, and I'm really looking forward to seeing 
more spectra so we can understand the diversity of all of the 
worlds that are out there.
    Mr. Webster. So do you filter out all of the extraneous 
spectra and just get down to one particular wavelength or how 
do you how do you do that?
    Dr. Batalha. No, the power is in looking at all of the 
colors. JWST is focusing on the infrared but a very broad 
region of the infrared. And every single color tells us 
something different because the molecules that are out there 
and the atoms, they absorb each one with a unique chemical 
fingerprint. And each molecule tells you something different. 
In an exoplanet atmosphere, for example, each molecule's 
absorption happens in a different layer of the atmosphere. So 
if you look at many molecules together, you can buildup the 
whole temperature pressure profile of that atmosphere. You can 
start to understand things like climate and dynamics and really 
the history of that exoplanet, how it lived and how it has 
evolved.
    Mr. Webster. Awesome. OK. I yield back.
    Chairman Beyer. Thank you very much. We're coming to a 
close. Dr. Babin and I would love to continue to talk about the 
infinite number of universes and the metaverse and dark energy 
and all that, but it sort of wanders away from our oversight 
responsibility perhaps. I do have one more question though. Who 
is Stephan in Stephan's Quintet? Is that one of your children, 
too?
    Dr. Finkelstein. No, no. My other child is Kieran, who I 
think might be a future lawmaker, so you may see him here at 
some point.
    Chairman Beyer. That's great. Great. In the meantime, I'd 
have to say that of the eight years that Dr. Babin and I have 
been on this Committee, this is maybe tied with the 
gravitational waves hearing as the most fascinating that we've 
had. So you've been terrific witnesses. I'm really impressed 
with the depth of your knowledge and your excitement and your 
ability to transmit that to us and to the world, so thank you 
very, very much.
    So before--the record will remain open for two weeks for 
additional statements from the Members or additional comments 
on the direction of history in the universe and for any 
additional questions the Committee may ask of the witnesses. 
The witnesses are excused, and the hearing is now adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:04 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]