[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                  INNOVATIVE WORKPLACES, HISTORIC SPACES:
                    MODERNIZING HOUSE OFFICE BUILDINGS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                       SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE 
                       MODERNIZATION OF CONGRESS

                                OF THE

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                             MARCH 17, 2022

                               __________

                           Serial No. 117-16

                               __________

  Printed for the use of the Select Committee on the Modernization of 
                                Congress
                                
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                    Available via http://govinfo.gov
                    
                              __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
48-605                     WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
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           SELECT COMMITTEE ON THE MODERNIZATION OF CONGRESS

                    DEREK KILMER, Washington, Chair

 ZOE LOFGREN, California              WILLIAM TIMMONS, South Carolina,
 EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri             Vice Chair
 ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado              BOB LATTA, Ohio
 DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota             RODNEY DAVIS, Illinois
 NIKEMA WILLIAMS, Georgia             DAVE JOYCE, Ohio
                                      GUY RESCHENTHALER, Pennsylvania
                                      BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas

                            COMMITTEE STAFF

                     Yuri Beckelman, Staff Director
                 Derek Harley, Republican Staff Director

                            C O N T E N T S

                           Opening Statements

                                                                   Page
Chairman Derek Kilmer
      Oral Statement.............................................     1
Hon. Rodney Davis, Representative, Thirteenth District of 
    Illinois
      Written Statement..........................................     3
Vice Chairman William Timmons
      Oral Statement.............................................     4
Hon. Dean Phillips, Representative, Third District of Minnesota
      Oral Statement.............................................     5

                               Witnesses

Mr. J. Brett Blanton, Architect of the Capitol
      Oral Statement.............................................     6
      Written Statement..........................................     9
Discussion                                                           17
Ms. Katie Irwin on behalf of American Institute of Architects
      Oral Statement.............................................    27
      Written Statement..........................................    30
Mr. James Ossman, Vice President, Workplace & Strategic Sourcing, 
    Etsy
      Oral Statement.............................................    36
      Written Statement..........................................    39
Mr. Patrick Wand, Senior Manager, Mall of America
      Oral Statement.............................................    44
      Written Statement..........................................    47
Discussion                                                           50

 
   INNOVATIVE WORKPLACES, HISTORIC SPACES: MODERNIZING HOUSE OFFICE 
                               BUILDINGS

                        THURSDAY, MARCH 17, 2022

                  House of Representatives,
                            Select Committee on the
                                 Modernization of Congress,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:00 a.m., in Room 
210, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Derek Kilmer [chairman 
of the committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Kilmer, Cleaver, Phillips, 
Williams, Timmons, and Joyce.
    The Chairman. The committee will come to order.
    Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a 
recess in the committee at any time.
    And I recognize myself for 5 minutes for an opening 
statement.
    On average, Americans spend one-third of their lives 
working. That is 90,000 hours over the course of a lifetime. 
For workers who work multiple jobs or continue to work well 
past the average age of retirement, those figures are 
significantly higher.
    Time spent on the job is time away from home for most 
working Americans. Prior to the pandemic, 82 percent of 
employees did some or all of their work at an actual place of 
work. COVID, of course, has changed all of that. Telework moved 
into the mainstream, and millions of Americans quickly 
transformed their living rooms, dining rooms, and even their 
bedrooms into their home offices.
    Two years later, it appears we are finally turning the 
corner, and many American workers are now transitioning back to 
the office. That transition, however, isn't as easy as flipping 
a switch. Some workers learned that they could do their jobs 
just as well, if not better, from home. Others appreciated the 
flexibility of telework and time saved not commuting.
    And, at the same time, many workers missed the office 
environment. Spontaneous opportunities to collaborate, 
brainstorm, or even just socialize with colleagues all but 
disappeared during the pandemic. For every worker who wants to 
continue working from home, there is one who wants to be in the 
office and yet another who wants a hybrid schedule.
    Employers across the country are now recognizing that, in 
order to recruit and retain top talent, their workplaces need 
to be reflective and supportive of how their employees want to 
work.
    The pandemic jump-started a massive workplace makeover that 
was already underway, thanks to factors like changing worker 
demographics and new technologies. Research shows that high-
quality workplace design improves employee productivity and 
efficiency. It also boosts employee job satisfaction, which is 
key to staff retention.
    Research also shows that smart design doesn't have to cost 
a lot and small investments up front can result in big long-
term savings. For example, flexible rather than fixed design 
can make it easier for offices to continually adapt and provide 
the multi-use workspaces that employees want.
    These trends present a real opportunity for Congress to 
think about how to design and use space in ways that not only 
accommodates Members and staff but the people we serve.
    We face a multitude of pain points in how our office 
buildings are designed and function. Among other things, there 
is little to no drop-in meeting space, other than the overly 
noisy cafeterias or Dunkin' Donuts. The room reservation system 
could use some major improvements so that we can trust that a 
space will actually be available when we book it. Members, 
staff, and guests routinely get lost while navigating this 
complex, particularly for those of us in the Rayburn building. 
I have not found my office at times.
    To learn ways to address these problems, we will be joined 
today by two panels of witnesses to discuss innovative design 
principles and strategies that Congress might consider.
    First, we will hear from J. Brett Blanton, the Architect of 
the Capitol. Mr. Blanton will discuss his office's Vision 2100 
plan that serves as the guiding vision for what the 
congressional complex will look like 80 years from now. He will 
also discuss current physical space modernization efforts and 
provide a brief update on the implementation status of the 
committee's previous recommendations that fall under his 
jurisdiction.
    Our second panel of witnesses will consist of outside 
experts that will talk with us about best practices in 
architecture, interior design, and way-finding systems that 
might be applicable to our campus.
    The committee will once again make use of the committee 
rules we adopted earlier this year that give us the flexibility 
to engage in thoughtful discussion and the civil exchange of 
opinion. In accordance with clause 2(j) of House rule XI, we 
will allow up to 30 minutes of extended questioning per 
witness. And, without objection, time will not be strictly 
segregated between the witnesses, which will allow for extended 
back-and-forth exchanges between members and the witness.
    Vice Chair Timmons and I will manage the time to ensure 
that every member has equal opportunity to participate. Any 
member who wishes to speak should signal their request to me or 
Vice Chair Timmons. Additionally, members who wish to claim 
their individual 5 minutes to question each witness pursuant to 
clause 2(j)(2) of rule XI will be permitted to do so following 
the period of extended questioning.
    Okay. That was a lot.
    Now let me kick it over to Vice Chair Timmons to share some 
opening remarks.
    Mr. Timmons. Good morning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    First, I want to thank my friend Dean Phillips and Rodney 
Davis for their efforts as it relates to this hearing. I am 
passionate about it as well, but they have been spearheading 
the conversation, so I just want to say thank you.
    In that vein, Congressman Davis is not going to be able to 
be here, so I have some remarks that he wanted to share, and I 
ask unanimous consent that they be included for the record.
    Thank you.
    [The statement of Mr. Davis follows:]
    Chairman Kilmer, Vice Chairman Timmons, thank you for the 
opportunity to share a few words on today's topic of the use of 
space throughout the House side of the Capitol Campus.
    Although this may seem like an odd topic for Members to 
deliberate upon, I would risk the exaggeration that physical 
space is a significant challenge that the First Branch faces in 
being a strong, healthy institution that is responsive to the 
People and effective in its operations.
    Our use of space is severely limited right now--beyond the 
normal operational challenges, the halls of Congress have been 
closed to the American people for over 700 days. Recommendation 
number one simply should be re-opening the Capitol Campus. But, 
since that is out of the control of the Members sitting here 
today, it is important for us to recognize that even when the 
doors were open 2 years ago, there were--and remain--serious 
space issues that greatly affect our staff's productivity and 
our ability to serve our constituents meaningfully.
    In addressing these issues, I have to say that our 
institution could not be luckier than to have Rep. Dean 
Phillips be a partner in these discussions. Thank you to Mr. 
Phillips for sharing an interest in this topic and for the work 
his team has done in bringing some creative ideas to the table.
    There are few topics that couldn't be more bipartisan than 
the space we share--regardless of party, we have all struggled 
to find space to host constituent meetings, to fit staff desks 
into our offices, or simply to get around Rayburn in the early 
days. But, to take an even broader approach to this issue: if 
Congress is ever going to reassert its oversight of the 
executive branch and its other constitutional powers, it needs 
more staff. Unfortunately, even if that were to happen, we 
would have no place to put them. We can barely house the staff 
we currently have. Whether that problem is addressed in the 
short term or years down the road, there need to be best 
practices and recommendations to shape that conversation.
    In addition to the issues posed by a general lack of space, 
there is also a need to evaluate critically the space that we 
have and to find a balance between preserving the historic 
nature of these buildings with making sure Congress has the 
tools it needs to be effective. For example, just last week a 
member was attempting to make minor modifications to their 
office space to better utilize their closet area as a makeshift 
studio for media interviews. They were told no by the Architect 
just because it would have required some minor work to remove 
some wooden shelves. Another classic example is the Cannon 
Caucus room, which is one of only a few large venue spaces on 
the House side to host large events. This room was offline for 
over five years because of continual issues between Congress 
and the Architect over balancing historical preservation with 
functionality and technology. These two examples are reflective 
of some of the current issues on this topic.
    Moving forward, I think it would be of great benefit to the 
institution to do a comprehensive review of the space we have, 
determine how we can use it more efficiently, and think outside 
the box to modernize space to better facilitate the work of 
members and staff. Specifically, I believe much of the outdoor 
space on the Campus is underutilized and could provide a great 
benefit in relieving some of the demand for in-door meeting 
space.
    I'm thankful that ModCom is holding this hearing to start 
those conversations today, and thankful to the Architect of the 
Capitol, and witnesses on our second panel as well, for their 
time. I'm looking forward to the discussion, and with that, I 
will yield back.
    Mr. Timmons. And when Dave Joyce gets here, it is his----
    The Chairman. His birthday.
    Mr. Timmons [continuing]. Birthday, so we are going to have 
to give him a----
    The Chairman. Should we break into song upon his arrival?
    Mr. Timmons. I think so. I think--we can do that. Okay.
    The Chairman. Witnesses have to participate.
    Mr. Timmons. Well, first, Mr. Blanton, thank you so much 
for coming. We are going to have a lot of fun today.
    I really--I love this complex. I love the Capitol. I cannot 
imagine how challenging it is to manage all the variables. If 
you think about it, you have Members and their staff needs; you 
have ingress/egress out of the Capitol; you have security 
concerns; you have visitors. And then you have the physical 
structures being on a hill going down and the challenges 
associated with how you get between buildings and how you 
define what floor is what and how.
    And I cannot tell you how many times I have gotten lost in 
Rayburn. I try not to go there, but, unfortunately, that is 
where my committee is. But, trying to get to the chairman's 
office, I have literally never gone the fastest way. I know 
that I have never gone the fastest way.
    The Chairman. Oof.
    Mr. Timmons. And, to be fair, our offices, I think, are the 
two furthest points on the entire House campus from one 
another. I mean, they literally are.
    I.am not going to say that we--I know that we can do 
better. I don't know what that means, and I think that is the 
purpose of this hearing.
    I think the best ways that we can try to improve is going 
to be opportunities for Members to interact in a bipartisan 
manner. We have made some recommendations on that already, but 
I think a lot of it is space. We have had so many challenges, 
as a committee, just trying to find places to have fellowship 
and to have meetings. And, you know, it is not so much being a 
select committee but just a dinner. We have literally struck 
out many times trying to find a place to have dinner on the 
complex. We have gotten better at it, but it is not easy.
    And then you have staff. You know, if staff wants to get 
together, really, they can go to ABP--that is their neutral 
site--or a number of other spots--Dunkin' Donuts. I would like 
to really explore what we can do to create some collaborative 
spaces both for Members and for staff.
    And, you know, I am really looking forward to your thoughts 
and to Dean's thoughts and to everybody else's thoughts on how 
we can tackle that.
    So I just really appreciate that we are having this hearing 
today. I am looking forward to the recommendations we can come 
up with.
    And, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Vice Chair Timmons.
    Before we hear from our witnesses, I want to just take a 
moment and acknowledge the work of two of our committee member, 
Mr. Davis and Mr. Phillips, who have taken the lead on working 
on this issue for the committee. I would like to thank both of 
them and their staffs for working so hard to help us put this 
hearing together, for helping us scope the themes that we are 
going to cover and finding today's witnesses.
    So, before we move on, I would like to give you a chance to 
talk about your interest and work on the physical space issues. 
So, Mr. Phillips, I would welcome you to share any remarks.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you, Mr. Chair, to you; to Vice Chair 
Timmons; to you, Mr. Blanton--welcome--to the extraordinary 
staff that have brought us on this journey of modernization.
    And I also want to salute Patrick Wand, who is going to be 
on the second panel, from my district, a little shopping center 
in Bloomington, Minnesota, called the Mall of America, who is 
going to talk about how to get to Rayburn a little bit faster.
    I think this is the most collaborative committee in the 
entire Congress, and it is by design, thanks to you, Chair 
Kilmer, and you, Vice Chair Timmons. And, as a result, we 
believe that space, when employed well, when thoughtfully 
designed, can both force collaboration, innovation, and better 
outcomes. Conversely, when poorly designed, poorly utilized, it 
impedes those very outcomes.
    And we see a grand opportunity to preserve and protect 
these extraordinary facilities but also bring them into the 
21st century so that those who visit us, those who work with 
us, and those who serve as Members of Congress will be forced 
by design to work more closely together. That is our 
inspiration, and that is our aspiration.
    So I am thrilled particularly to be part of this hearing. 
Rodney Davis, who serves on House Admin, has been a great 
partner in this. And we believe that the United States Congress 
should reflect the very best in not just American design but 
world design as it relates to space and also places for 
collaboration.
    So, with that, thank you for a few moments just to speak, 
Chair Kilmer, and I am excited for this hearing.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Phillips.
    I am honored to welcome four experts who are here to share 
with us their ideas and recommendations for how Congress can 
improve and modernize its buildings and offices.
    Witnesses are reminded that your written statements will be 
made part of the record.
    Our first witness is J. Brett Blanton. Mr. Blanton has 
served as the Architect of the Capitol since 2020. Previously, 
he served as the deputy vice president of the Metropolitan 
Washington Airports Authority.
    Mr. Blanton served as a U.S. Naval officer for more than 20 
years in both the U.S. and overseas. He was awarded the Bronze 
Star for combat heroism in Baghdad.
    He holds a Bachelor of Science degree in aeronautical 
engineering from the United States Naval Academy and a Master 
of Science degree in ocean engineering from Virginia Tech.
    Mr. Blanton, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

    STATEMENT OF J. BRETT BLANTON, ARCHITECT OF THE CAPITOL

    Mr. Blanton. Thank you, Chair Kilmer, Vice Chair Timmons, 
and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to 
testify today, and I truly appreciate the committee's work. I 
am a firm believer that we can achieve great success if we all 
work together.
    As the 12th Architect of the Capitol, I would like to share 
my observations from my first few years while serving Congress 
and the Supreme Court.
    Above all else, the U.S. Capitol is a symbol of Western 
democracy. It is one of the most significant architectural 
buildings in the entire world. Building upon this rich history, 
our current scope of work is much more than the early 
Architects could have ever imagined. Day and night, AOC 
employees and staff work behind the scenes to ensure Congress 
and the Supreme Court can function. It is a very unique 
environment. And I can say we are committed to preserving the 
history of this institution as well as adapting it to address 
modern functionality.
    As discussed in my written testimony, AOC's Vision 2100 
provides a North Star or guideposts and principles to adapt the 
Capitol complex to prepare for innovations over the next 80 
years. It reflects input from Members of Congress, 
congressional staff, stakeholders, and anybody who views the 
Capitol as a symbol of American democracy.
    At the same time, we need to complete a comprehensive 
master plan so that we can memorialize how to preserve and 
modernize the Capitol complex over the next 20 years.
    The last 2 years have brought unprecedented challenges but 
enabled AOC to adapt our mission to better serve Congress and 
the Supreme Court.
    For example, physical security is paramount and is of great 
importance to anybody who enters the Capitol complex, and 
physical security infrastructure improvements have been a top 
priority of the AOC throughout my tenure. In close and 
continuous coordination with my counterparts in the Capitol 
Police and the House and Senate Sergeants at Arms, we have put 
significant effort in adapting our infrastructure to meet ever-
changing security needs.
    From the start of the pandemic, AOC took the lead for the 
legislative branch to act as a general purchasing agent for 
PPE, manage specialized cleaning of spaces identified by our 
partners and assessed by the Office of the Attending Physician, 
and ensure the facilities and utilities are well-maintained for 
ongoing and future congressional needs.
    Throughout all these measures and ongoing coordination with 
our partners, we are working to make the Capitol complex a safe 
environment for employees and visitors.
    Yet all employees across America are now looking at how we 
may adjust our operations when we welcome back more staff and 
visitors. AOC is now doing its own spatialization assessment 
for our office space used by AOC employees in the Ford 
Building.
    Throughout this effort, we are defining the office of the 
future. Realizing the success of telework over the past 2 years 
and utilizing activity-based planning, I am encouraging the use 
of shared desk space, or hoteling; shared parking; smaller 
huddle rooms for ad-hoc meetings; and adjustable partitions for 
conference rooms to accommodate a variety of uses.
    As resources permit, the AOC also plans to launch an 
initiative that will utilize technology and ISO standards to 
enhance our efficiency and operations. A new enterprise asset 
management system will aid in decisionmaking for operating and 
maintaining infrastructure assets, such as buildings, 
machinery, vehicles, and construction equipment. These efforts 
also reflect my ongoing commitment to have consistent standards 
and policies and procedures across campus.
    For visitors, we have made great strides in terms of 
signage for those arriving at different parts of the campus. At 
the same time, I continue to look forward to ways to improve 
way-finding, and I acknowledge that many of our buildings, by 
just the layout of the infrastructure, are challenging to 
navigate.
    In addition, the agency is committed to improving 
accessibility across campus. We have established a new office 
within AOC to oversee safety and code compliance. This office, 
with support of our partners at the Sergeants at Arms and the 
Office of Congressional Workplace Rights, will help ensure the 
accessibility recommendations made by this committee are 
enacted.
    AOC is proactively taking necessary steps to improve 
accessibility. For example, we are actively incorporating 
accessibility requirements into new projects, conducting 
accessibility surveys and inspections of completed projects, 
examining existing facilities for ADA compliance, providing ADA 
training for AOC staff, and addressing the Office of 
Congressional Workplace Rights' reports on the Americans with 
Disabilities Act.
    In addition, the Cannon Renewal Project incorporates many 
accessibility improvements within this historic building. As 
discussed in my written testimony, we have addressed very 
specific needs centering around access to Members' offices and 
committee hearing rooms. We have also expanded the number of 
elevators and family-friendly restrooms as part of this effort.
    And while all these improvements are a top priority, I am 
also committed to maintaining a positive work environment where 
people have the skills, training, equipment, and support to 
serve Congress on behalf of the American people. On a daily 
basis, I am impressed and inspired by the perseverance and 
professionalism displayed by my employees.
    Yet we can always do better to provide training 
opportunities for my staff. That is why I started an initiative 
called AOC University. Through this effort, we are expanding 
professional development opportunities for all AOC employees. 
We have a team working to identify the areas of greatest 
training needs as well as the best format for implementation. 
Our goal is to provide cost-effective, meaningful opportunities 
to both attract and retain skilled employees. In doing so, we 
will provide greater incentives and opportunities for our 
workforce.
    With support of Congress and the incredibly talented and 
skillful team, I am proud of what we have accomplished as well 
as what the future holds for the Capitol complex. On behalf the 
AOC staff, I thank you for your support and look forward to 
answering your questions.
    [The statement of Mr. Blanton follows:]
    
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    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Blanton.
    I now recognize myself and Vice Chair Timmons to begin a 
period of extended questioning of the witness. Any member who 
wishes to speak should just signal their request to either 
myself or to Vice Chair Timmons.
    I have a thousand questions for you, but I am going to try 
to keep it to three. And the three I have relate to 
recommendations this committee has made previously and just 
trying to get a sense of the capacity to actually do some of 
these things. So let me hit on a few of these.
    I am going to start with, like, where we are right now. The 
setup that we have on this committee is a little bit unique. We 
have sort of decided that it is hard to have a good 
conversation staring at the back of somebody's head, and so our 
committee has decided to kind of sit in this sort of format, at 
least whenever possible.
    One of our recommendations that we made in the last 
Congress was to empower committees to experiment with this type 
of a layout. That is a little challenging based on the 
committee rooms all kind of look like this, and there is not a 
lot of, sort of, mobility of the furniture. We have daises.
    So I guess the question is, is there a space where--you 
know, I am thinking about, like, the Cannon Caucus Room or 
something like that--that could be used by committees if they 
wanted to do something like this, committees or subcommittees, 
if they wanted to have more of a roundtable format? Or could we 
make sure that the big rooms in the House Visitor Center could 
be accessible for C-SPAN so that committees could meet in that 
type of format?
    Mr. Blanton. That is a great question. As we all know, 
space is a challenge, and even scheduling a space seems to be 
more of a challenge.
    The Chairman. Yeah.
    Mr. Blanton. And it is a challenge for anybody on the 
Capitol complex.
    I welcome the idea of having--well, a meeting like this is 
much more conducive to conversation. And it is more of what you 
would see in a boardroom-type meeting, where you have the 
ability to interact and dialogue, as opposed to different 
elevation of individuals, talking down at some people, talking 
across at other people.
    The Chairman. Yeah.
    Mr. Blanton. So the CVC holds a unique opportunity, on both 
the House and the Senate side, where we can configure the rooms 
to host meetings similar to this. I will say, this is almost 
the identical layout that we use in the CVC rooms for the 
Capitol Police Board meetings, which are very productive.
    Right now, the challenge, from my understanding, is the 
electronics, the backbone. But that can be resolved. It just 
needs to be a priority, where we can make sure that the cameras 
are there, that the lighting is proper to host public meetings. 
You know, it is perfectly fine for private meetings. There are 
challenges of connection with, whether it is a--whatever web 
server event is being used to broadcast. And those are all 
things that could become a priority for Congress that can be 
implemented.
    I also want to say that one of the challenges--and it is 
somewhat consistent across many of the recommendations of this 
committee--is, there are numerous stakeholders that are 
involved. There isn't one person that you can actually pin the 
rose on and say, ``I would like you to do this.'' It involves 
coordination between my office, the House Sergeant at Arms, 
CAO. And so all of us would need to work together. And we all 
have different budgets that would have to pay for part of 
these.
    And so I would say in any recommendation--I have great 
partnerships with them, and I think they would say the same 
thing about us. But with any recommendation we have to realize 
that we have these various stakeholders who will have a say in 
how the outcome would be accomplished.
    The Chairman. That is useful. But for what it is worth, the 
omnibus that we just passed includes a modernization account 
within the leg. branch section. That might provide the 
flexibility to do so. You know, given the siloing that you 
mentioned, that might be an opportunity.
    One of the other recommendations that we made was focused 
on raising the cap on the number of full-time staff, just 
recognizing that our districts are getting bigger and bigger, 
the population that we serve is getting larger and larger, and 
the capacity to be responsive to our constituents becomes more 
challenging.
    There was some independent review of this that also 
suggested that there should be an increased number of employees 
on the Hill.
    Can we accommodate that? You know, do we have available 
options for if we are bringing more people in to Member 
offices? How would that work?
    Mr. Blanton. If Congress and the staff, the Member staff, 
are going to operate the way it has prior to COVID, then the 
short answer is there is not available space.
    However, if you look at it from a hybrid perspective--and I 
can say my office is going to that. Obviously I have staff that 
have to be on campus. It is hard to do maintenance to 
facilities if you are not here. But I have staff that support 
that don't necessarily have to be on campus. And so we are 
adopting a hybrid approach for my staff. There, there are 
opportunities where we can capture space that could be utilized 
to bring more people in.
    I will also say that----
    The Chairman. Is anybody doing that other than your office? 
I mean, are there these, sort of, flexible workspaces?
    Mr. Blanton. So we did a project at the Thurgood Marshall 
Building which is really the prototype for us of the office of 
the future, where we renovated a space on their first floor to 
allow for hoteling.
    We put the lockers in for people to have their privacy 
areas, and they would share a desk. We converted conference 
rooms in ways that they could have many small meetings or one 
large one, and then even sliding partitions so if we needed to 
have an all-persons meeting, an all-agency meeting, that you 
can have that hosted in the conference room but yet then steal 
off into the areas where the partitions are.
    The Chairman. Are you looking at doing that in any of these 
office buildings?
    Mr. Blanton. So that will take the--it is under the 
authority of the House Office Building Commission. And what we 
hope to do with our office of the future is really show this as 
an example of what can be accomplished so that there is a 
demand for this in our office buildings.
    Because I will say, one of the things that we heard in our 
interviews with Vision 2100 is the need for small huddle rooms, 
is the need for just a space where I could go on and have a 
teleconference with, whether it is a constituent or somebody--
we are working on the same issue; we just don't happen to be in 
the same location. But that doesn't exist.
    The Chairman. Yeah.
    Mr. Blanton. And that is something that we really want to 
highlight to say that, you know, this is what can occur, so 
that we can get the various partners who have a stake in it all 
coming together and saying that, yes, we want this to occur.
    The Chairman. I am going to put a pin in my other 998 
questions.
    So go ahead, please.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have a bunch of my 
own questions, but I am going to start with Congressman Davis's 
questions, because they are a little bit more polished.
    Thank you for presenting on Vision 2100. It is clear that 
the plan has many long-term goals, but I am curious if your 
team has broken the plan into smaller timelines--for example, a 
5-year, 10-year, and 20-year version?
    Mr. Blanton. Yes. Thank you.
    So it is a nestle plan. So the Vision 2100 is, as I said, 
it is the powerful and lasting statement of what the Capitol 
will be over the next 80 years. Then you have our Capitol 
Complex Master Plan, which looks at that 80 years over four 20-
year increments. The next portion under that is four 5-year 
strategic plans.
    And so that is how they all nestle together to work. But 
the idea is we are following the North Star from the vision and 
we are having definitive things where we have specific 
timelines where we can measure our progress and determine, do 
we need to change courses.
    Mr. Timmons. It would be beneficial as followup for us to 
learn about these shorter-term plans and how your team has 
built in room for innovation. Is that something your office 
could provide?
    Mr. Blanton. We would welcome that discussion.
    Mr. Timmons. Okay. Great. Thank you.
    And what customer feedback tools do you have in place to 
ensure that the people who use and visit these buildings are 
part of the process?
    Mr. Blanton. So we have customer feedback for every single 
trouble call that we do, so in every single office, where we 
are trying to mirror ourselves very similar to what Amazon does 
when they deliver a package. I mean, it starts with a simple 
question, are you happy or not happy. And then if you are 
happy, we have a couple of questions that follow on about, you 
know, they were timely, they were courteous, they got the work 
done. If you are not happy, there are some follow-on questions.
    We also have that when we have the public in there that 
will engage with the Capitol Visitor Center, along their tour 
routes.
    Mr. Timmons. Do you believe that the House needs another 
House office building?
    Mr. Blanton. I think that is something that we are clearly 
looking at as part of our Capitol Complex Master Plan. There is 
a distinct pressure on both the House and the Senate for office 
space, and so, obviously, land is a premium on both sides. And 
so that is something we are--that is one of the key outcomes of 
our master plan.
    And I want to state that this is not a master plan that AOC 
is doing in private and then going to unveil it and say, here 
is the answer. This is an interactive process with Members and 
stakeholders and the public, effectively, to determine what is 
best for us and for the next 20 years.
    Mr. Timmons. Last question. What do you believe is the 
House office buildings' greatest challenge when it comes to 
space?
    Mr. Blanton. Configuration, more than anything else. The 
space was designed--I mean, the earliest building was designed 
in the, you know, turn of the 19th century and constructed in 
the beginning of the 20th century. The concept of even 
telephones didn't exist at that time.
    And so you think what has progressed in the world, what 
technology disrupters have progressed since then. It is really 
adapting the space to be able to utilize current technology in 
the most efficient way possible.
    Mr. Timmons. I am going to let Dean go. I will have my 
questions next. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Phillips. My first question is understanding how space 
is currently used. Does the AOC maintain an understanding of 
exactly who controls each room, hearing room, office, and so 
forth? Is there a centralized understanding of that right now?
    Mr. Blanton. So we have a good understanding of under whose 
authority each room is given, whether it is--I mean, the 
overarching authority is the House Office Building Commission.
    Mr. Phillips. And just for everybody's education, who 
comprises that commission?
    Mr. Blanton. So that is the Speaker, the majority leader, 
and the majority and minority on CHA.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay. And so they maintain a--I guess, 
ultimately, the answer is, there is some type of a master----
    Mr. Blanton. Yes. They do it in large blocks.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. For example, they will say, ``AOC, you have 
this floor on the Ford building,'' and then we are now in 
charge of configuring our space on that building.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. And they will give CHA or another support 
entity another set of real estate that they would control.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. We have not had discussions about really 
looking at the micro level, outside of my spaces, of how can we 
reconfigure some of these office spaces in a way that would be 
more efficient.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay. So different groups administer 
different spaces. Same goes with scheduling, I imagine?
    Mr. Blanton. Yes.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. Like, I have conference rooms that I can 
schedule. The various support entities have the same.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    And just tagging along on Chair Kilmer's question about 
committee room design, whose instruction would it take--if the 
aspiration was to reconfigure this hearing room, for example, 
and do a more collaborative environment, whose instruction 
would result in that being done?
    Mr. Blanton. So we have a program within the House that we 
are doing two committee rooms a year. And that is in close 
consultation with CHA about what committee rooms are in the 
queue and what we are doing within the committee rooms.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. So we go through and we--for example, some of 
these committee rooms, they will change the entire orientation, 
where the dais is now 90 degrees at what it was before because 
it would----
    Mr. Phillips. Interesting.
    Mr. Blanton [continuing]. Allow greater operations.
    We do engage with the committee and CHA during that process 
to determine what would be best for the renovation, best for 
the operations of the committee, fully realizing that what was 
the past--we have a history--sorry--we have a mission to 
preserve, but, also, there is a way that you can preserve while 
still modernizing.
    Mr. Phillips. So, if I might just interject, so if a 
committee chair in a--first of all, which hearing rooms are up 
next?
    Mr. Blanton. I will have to take that for the record.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    So, if a committee chair implored that we want to get away 
from this design and do a more circular table, is that 
something--who would stand in the way of that, if a committee 
chair said this is how we want to do it, or----
    Mr. Blanton. It would be in consultation with my office and 
CHA. They would have these discussions.
    Mr. Phillips. You would have to collaborate. So there is 
not a distinct--okay. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. Each one of these committee rooms have a level 
of historic preservation that is required based off the history 
of the committee. Some of them are not as historic as other 
committee rooms, so that makes it much easier to be able to go 
through and say, hey, we can change just about everything.
    Mr. Phillips. But is that fair to say, well, that is the 
chandeliers and the finishes and the--I mean, less than the 
configuration of the----
    Mr. Blanton. It is mostly the physical infrastructure, but 
you can run into it with some of the historic daises.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. They may have hosted very particular events in 
the past.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    My second question is about any engagement of the private 
sector--designers, thinkers--for, kind of, ideation as you work 
on some of these master plans, the 2100 plan?
    Mr. Blanton. Yes. So we don't do anything in AOC in a 
bubble. All of our designs--our planning, designs, and 
construction, we hire consultants. And we have some of the 
greatest consultants when it comes to historic infrastructure 
preservation and also modernization that you can get in the 
United States.
    And I will use Cannon as a great example where we worked 
wonders to get that old building to the way that the current 
suites are renovated. Now, I will say, though, that those 
suites were renovated based off of how operations were at the 
time. And if operations are changing, that gives us an 
opportunity to re-look at those for other buildings.
    Mr. Phillips. And you don't have to name names, but have 
you engaged at all with some of America's top employers that 
are kind of forward-thinking in terms of their design 
facilities?
    Mr. Blanton. Yes, we did, as part of Vision 2100. We 
engaged with some of the largest and most innovative 
corporations that----
    Mr. Phillips. Great.
    Mr. Blanton. You could probably list them. I can list them 
on my hand. But, you know, we engaged with them. And I can 
provide you more information about that.
    Mr. Phillips. Well, if you can name names, that would be 
great, but I respect it if you can't.
    Mr. Blanton. I would prefer not to in this setting.
    Mr. Phillips. I understand.
    Mr. Blanton. Because many of them wanted to keep their 
interaction confidential because they----
    Mr. Phillips. I understand.
    Mr. Blanton. But I will say, we also brought in futurists--
--
    Mr. Phillips. Great.
    Mr. Blanton [continuing]. And visionaries to really look 
at--technology is changing more rapidly and is expected to 
change more rapidly in the future than it did just in the last 
20 years. And so there are a lot of disrupters, or, as we 
called them, change tensions.
    And I will just use a very small example with us. The micro 
transportation networks that are going on now, the bikes and 
scooters. If you would have told me a couple years ago that 
somebody would be riding a scooter on the Capitol complex, I 
would have said, yeah, a 12-year-old would, not a 
businessperson going to work.
    Mr. Phillips. Uh-huh.
    Mr. Blanton. So that is a change tension, but I wouldn't 
necessarily call that one what we would call a fundamental 
shift. A fundamental shift is where that tension now turns to 
changing the way we do business.
    And I am going to talk philosophical now. Because Uber and 
Lyft are doing research on flying vehicles, flying taxis. We 
have controlled airspace around the Capitol. My guess is, the 
first time that leadership wants to have a flying taxi pick 
them up, we are going to change that. And so we are going to 
have to be able to adapt the Capitol to, where they are going 
to land? How are they going to get picked up? How structurally 
can we support that?
    And so, as part of the Vision and our master plan, we want 
to make sure those tensions, as we see them predictive to them 
becoming fundamental shifts in the way we do business, that we 
are able to adapt to that.
    Mr. Phillips. Can I just clarify--before I turn it back, 
can I just clarify your answer to my first question about who 
ultimately makes decisions on redesigning space? You say it is 
a collaboration between the AOC in conjunction with committee--
--
    Mr. Blanton. CHA and the committee.
    Mr. Phillips. CHA. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. Yes.
    So the next up for renovation, just for the record, it is 
Oversight, Foreign Affairs, Agriculture, and then CHA.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay. So Foreign Affairs, Ag, and CHA.
    Mr. Blanton. CHA.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay. Thank you.
    The Chairman. Go ahead, Mr. Timmons.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    We have talked a lot about trying to find opportunities for 
Members to have fellowship. I imagine kind of a cafe-style 
thing somewhere near the Capitol, maybe inside, maybe outside. 
Just really bipartisan eating space, both for casual meetings 
but also for dinners. How challenging would that be?
    And let me give you one more variable. Before the pandemic, 
I think there was talk of putting the restaurant next to the 
Members Dining Room on OpenTable when we are not here. Like, 
their food service is pretty good, but, you know, it is very 
challenging when I think one of their rooms had $20,000 in 
annual income, and, I mean, it is just hard to run a restaurant 
when the flow is so unpredictable.
    Is there any talk of anything with the restaurant? And 
then, separate from that, the meeting space for Members, cafe-
style and dinners.
    Mr. Blanton. So, for the restaurants on the House side, 
that is managed by CAO. We do the restaurants on the Senate 
side.
    I will say, we are both experiencing the same issues when 
it comes to the revenue generation that you would expect from a 
restaurant. As you know, we go through times where they need to 
be open late at night because of business, to August recess 
when they may get a tenth of the people that will travel and 
utilize the restaurant.
    I will say that, on the House side, that Sodexo, who does 
the contract, they have done a pretty good job. And I will 
compliment them and CAO for the work they have done to keep the 
restaurants open to meet the demand.
    As far as your question about meeting space, one of the 
things that we are looking at in our master plan is the concept 
of, is there a need on the Capitol complex for, for lack of a 
better word, a conference center? Something that you can have 
not necessarily meetings in the buildings anymore--because we 
still don't know what the security procedures will be for each 
one of the buildings--but is there an outside space where we 
can have a conference center of various sizes where you could 
have these type of meetings and get the public engaged more 
and, frankly, rent them out for catered meals.
    Mr. Timmons. So we have, I guess I would call it a pop-up 
coffee shop in the bottom of Cannon. Is that something that we 
are going to see repeated, or is that just a one-time trial 
run? It is in the middle of the hallway, kind of weird. What is 
the plan there long term?
    Mr. Blanton. I would have to defer to CHA.
    Mr. Timmons. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. They manage that for the House.
    Mr. Timmons. Okay.
    Who would have to make the decision if we wanted to have a 
kind of indoor/outdoor cafe-style meetings space for Members to 
facilitate, kind of, bipartisanship opportunities? Who makes 
that call? Is it the Speaker?
    Mr. Blanton. So, as part of the master plan, we would 
recommend it, and the decision would be the House Office 
Building Commission. Then, obviously, the appropriators are 
going to have a large say in how it is funded for execution of 
the work.
    Mr. Timmons. Is there a master list, survey, of, I will 
call it, flex space? So I am down the hall in Cannon, and 
Speaker Pelosi's old office has this massive conference table 
that I have never seen anybody use. I mean, space like that, I 
mean, I would imagine someone is responsible for it. Is it 
reservable? How does that stuff work?
    Mr. Blanton. So it depends on where the space has been 
allocated. And this is one of the challenges we have on, 
really, both sides of campus, in the House and the Senate, is 
there are several entities that have approval authority. In 
general, it is, the House Office Building Commission has whole 
visibility of the space that is used by Members and the 
committees.
    The space that is allocated to various support entities, 
like my office, CHA, and the Sergeant at Arms, they have broad 
visibility but not the same visibility. Where, for example, if 
you needed to use a conference--your staff needed to use a 
conference room of mine in the Ford, it would take somebody 
knowing it exists, knowing that nobody is in it right now, 
knowing who to talk to in my organization to be able to rent 
it--or use it.
    There isn't currently anything that looks at conference 
rooms or flex spaces that has an online, say, reservation 
system that would be able to prioritize a meeting of, say, the 
chairs versus the vice chairs or another committee meeting. And 
I can tell you, in many commercial office spaces, that exists. 
You can go on your computer, whether it is through Outlook or 
some homegrown system, and say, I want to, you know, utilize a 
conference room from 2:00 to 3:00.
    Mr. Timmons. I think that is something we can probably look 
into further.
    The pendulum always swings back and forth on the Hill, and 
the Speaker inevitably will change and change back. Does the 
Speaker have the vast majority of control over, kind of, the 
Capitol and flex space? And is there any possibility of maybe 
recommending a standing space that is not party-controlled that 
would be available for anyone that wants to get together and 
have fellowship in a bipartisan manner? Does that question make 
sense?
    Mr. Blanton. So I wouldn't say the Speaker has control. I 
would say it is the House Office Building Commission has 
control. And so that----
    Mr. Timmons. Which is the Speaker, the majority leader, 
and----
    Mr. Blanton. And CHA.
    Mr. Timmons. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. But that is the organization that would be 
able to make a decision of, space that is utilized by Members 
and committees, that this could be utilized for a different 
purpose.
    Mr. Timmons. Last question. Historically, has this--I mean, 
10 years ago, 20 years ago, was there more opportunity for--was 
there more space that was available to Members generally, or 
has this always been a problem?
    Mr. Blanton. From my understanding--I mean, obviously, 
offices are growing, support entities are growing. But my 
understanding is that for at least over a decade space has been 
a challenge on the Capitol complex as a whole.
    Mr. Timmons. Thank you.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    The Chairman. Mr. Cleaver.
    Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Let me first thank Dean Phillips for requesting this kind 
of hearing and our two leaders for putting it on.
    I.had a chance to spend some time going through the bunker 
where Churchill always went during the bombing of London. And I 
have to tell you that I think about the January 6th assault on 
the Capitol quite a bit, and I just wonder whether or not it 
makes sense or whether it is architecturally possible for each 
of the three House buildings to have some kind of place that 
would bring a higher level of security than our offices.
    You know, when the Capitol invasion--whatever word we want 
to use--took place, we all were told to shelter in place, and 
most of us did it. But even I have a--and after being here for 
a while and getting threats and so forth, I created a safe room 
in my house for my wife, because I am gone; nobody else is 
there. But there is nothing up here that I am aware of, at 
least on the House side, that would offer a higher level of 
security should something happen again. I hope it never happens 
again.
    But can you speak to that impossibility--the craziness of 
the thought or the possibility that it could be done?
    Mr. Blanton. Yes. Thank you for the question.
    Immediately following the events of January 6th, we 
requested that appropriators transfer money from one of my 
accounts to another account in order to do a comprehensive 
physical security assessment.
    The assessment has been completed, and I would welcome an 
opportunity to provide you a brief on it. Unfortunately, the 
assessment is classified. I will say, however, your concerns 
that you discussed, dealing with safe rooms, are a major 
consideration as part of that assessment.
    I will also say, there has been work that has been done on 
the Capitol complex, specifically in the area of the House 
Chamber, where we have hardened the facility. And my hope is 
you never notice that the work was done, because it looks the 
same as it did before. Specifically, if you look in the 
Speaker's Lobby, there have been changes there.
    And the idea of doing any physical security improvement, it 
is a balance. And it is a balance between the historical 
architecture but with the need for physical safety. My artisans 
that do that type of work are incredible at blending in the 
physical security aspects into the historic architecture.
    And, just to reiterate, I welcome a follow-on discussion 
with you so that we can discuss the bounds and tenets of the 
physical security assessment. And I will say, in our 2023 
budget submission is where you will see the first downpayment 
of that for the congressional campus.
    Mr. Cleaver. Thank you very much.
    Let me just ask our two leaders, Mr. Timmons and Mr. 
Kilmer, to request some kind of a meeting--I don't know if we 
would need to go into a SCIF or whether we could have the 
meeting some other places--and receive some kind of a briefing 
on this. I think it would be very helpful to us--to me and, I 
think, to everyone.
    So, if that is possible, I would request it, and understand 
that we all have--you know, I am on Homeland Security, so we do 
go into the SCIF to see classified information that we 
understand is not to be shared outside of that SCIF.
    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Cleaver.
    And we would love to follow up with you in terms of getting 
more information.
    Mr. Blanton. Great. I welcome that discussion, and I will 
have my staff work with your staff to schedule in a SCIF.
    The Chairman. Terrific.
    Mr. Cleaver. Thank you very kindly.
    The Chairman. Let me just ask if any of the other members 
of the committee have any other--go ahead.
    Mr. Phillips. Mr. Blanton, it seems a little bit more 
complicated to completely redo a committee room or reimagine 
space, but, in the interim, who makes decisions about the 
furniture choices that are available to Members of Congress in 
rooms like this?
    Mr. Blanton. CHA does furnishings.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay. So that is solely their--so CHA can 
say, we are going change how the chairs are here, and that is 
done?
    Mr. Blanton. I can't talk about their process, but my 
assumption----
    Mr. Phillips. Uh-huh. But they issue the mandates?
    Mr. Blanton.--just knowing her, that it would be where she 
would coordinate with whomever.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    As far as you are aware, has there been any discussion 
about perhaps expanding the array of furnishings available to 
Members and rooms from, kind of, the very heavy, traditional 
leather and wood to a little bit more, perhaps, 21st-century?
    Mr. Blanton. I can say I personally have not had a 
conversation with them about that.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. But that is one of the entities we are looking 
at in our office of the future to showcase it.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay. So it starts at CHA. Okay.
    Thank you.
    Mr. Blanton. CAO. Sorry.
    Mr. Phillips. Oh, CAO. Okay.
    Mr. Blanton. CAO.
    Mr. Phillips. Okay.
    Thank you.
    The Chairman. Terrific.
    Thank you for taking the time with us. Appreciate your 
testimony and your insights and the work you do.
    Mr. Blanton. It is my pleasure. Thank you.
    The Chairman. So we are going to take a moment here before 
moving to our second panel, if we want to move them from the 
on-deck circle into the batter's box.
    We are joined by three experts who are here to share their 
ideas for modernizing physical space and way-finding on the 
House campus.
    Witnesses are reminded that your written statements will be 
made part of the record.
    Our first witness is Katie Irwin. Ms. Irwin is a project 
manager and senior associate at Quinn Evans Architects. She is 
a member the American Institute of Architects. She earned a 
Bachelor of Arts in art history and a Bachelor of Science in 
architecture and a Master of Architecture and a certificate in 
historic preservation from the University of Maryland.
    And there you are. All right. So we will call on you first.
    I should have read slower. Sorry.
    You are recognized for 5 minutes.

STATEMENTS OF KATIE IRWIN, ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN INSTITUTE 
  OF ARCHITECTS; JAMES OSSMAN, VICE PRESIDENT, WORKPLACE AND 
  STRATEGIC SOURCING, ETSY; AND PATRICK WAND, SENIOR MANAGER, 
                        MALL OF AMERICA

                    STATEMENT OF KATIE IRWIN

    Ms. Irwin. Good morning, Chairman Kilmer, Vice Chair 
Timmons, and members of the Select Committee on the 
Modernization of Congress.
    My name is Katie Irwin, and I am a licensed architect and 
interior designer specializing in both historic preservation 
and interior architecture. I am also a member of the American 
Institute of Architects.
    AIA applauds this bipartisan select committee for including 
physical office space within its review of Congress's existing 
practices and procedures. Thank you for inviting me to 
participate in this important discussion today.
    As an architect, I believe deeply in the power of design to 
support the essential functions of our society. Design best 
practices maximize the available office space and better equip 
Members of Congress and their staffs to meet the demanding 
requirements of their positions. Modernizing congressional 
offices also has staff recruitment and retention value.
    I respectfully offer these recommendations for your 
consideration, and please see my written testimony for more 
detail. Please note that this is not a substitute for design 
consultation with an architect or a design professional and 
additional consultation with the Architect of the Capitol would 
be required.
    Historic buildings, modern functionality.
    In my practice, I have worked with multiple government 
clients in historic buildings. I fully appreciate that 
congressional office space must retain the grandeur we 
associate with the seat of American democracy. It is critical 
to maintain the institution's character-defining features, 
faces, and finishes. This is completely feasible while still 
allowing for necessary modernizations to meet the needs of the 
21st-century office buildings.
    I work with clients to identify priority zones where the 
historic character and public-facing aspects of the building 
are an elevated concern. Those are distinct from other zones 
that have already been modified numerous times or are reserved 
solely for staff use.
    Congressional office suites could present a mix of both 
zones. A Member of Congress's office may retain solemn design 
and furnishing while still allowing for updates to 
congressional staff working spaces. Modern furnishing can 
support this goal. Historic writing desks and other traditional 
pieces can work alongside sit-to-stand desks, credenzas, and 
other technology-incorporative furniture. When approached 
thoughtfully, this can be done in a beautiful and tasteful 
balance of form, function, and ergonomics.
    Noise and daylight.
    Congress should also consider methods to reduce noise 
contamination and increase access to daylight. According to a 
2017 report from the CBRE Group, employee performance can 
improve between 10 and 40 percent in offices that address 
light, noise, and air quality. Employees also say that they are 
happier and less likely to quit.
    Currently, many congressional staff working spaces use 6-
foot-tall cubicle partitions, which can block daylight but do 
not block sound. Glass partitions would allow for daylight 
transfer, increased transparency, and muffled sound. Congress 
could also upgrade the harsher light palettes of halogen lights 
to warmer lighting or circadian lighting, which replicates a 
24-hour cycle.
    Sound-masking emits a low-level frequency that muffles 
sound transfer, allowing coworkers to engage in separate 
conversations with less interference. Additionally, sound-
absorbent panels could be easily applied and removed.
    Activity-based planning.
    The tactics mentioned above would improve current workplace 
functionality, but a comprehensive strategy should include 
activity-based planning. This is the design concept that 
different areas should serve different meeting functions, 
connected together by updated scheduling software.
    Within an individual office suite, consider layouts that 
include smaller, sound-controlled booths for video calls, a 
space for small group meetings, and another area for quiet 
work.
    Within the Capitol complex, consider converting underused 
spaces to support more than one function. For example, 
congressional hearing rooms are impressive when in use but 
often sit empty. I would not recommend changing the dais where 
Members of Congress sit, because that ought to be considered a 
priority zone for preservation. However, the furnishing for the 
audience could be upgraded to modular design so the rows we see 
now can be covered to support meeting space.
    Promoting effective, collaborative, and healthy workplaces 
on Capitol Hill supports good governance, which benefits us 
all. We can be good stewards of these historic spaces while 
sensitively integrating modern updates. AIA would welcome the 
opportunity to continue to be a resource for you.
    Thank you again, and I look forward to your questions.
    [The statement of Ms. Irwin follows:]
    
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    The Chairman. And thank you, Ms. Irwin.
    Our next witness is Mr. James Ossman. Mr. Ossman is the 
vice president of workplace and strategic sourcing at Etsy and 
a First Movers Fellow at The Aspen Institute.
    He earned his Bachelor of Arts in international relations 
and affairs from the George Washington University and earned 
his Master of Science in sustainability management from 
Columbia University.
    Mr. Ossman, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF JAMES OSSMAN

    Mr. Ossman. Thank you, Chairman Kilmer and Vice Chairman 
Timmons and members of the committee. I am James Ossman, and I 
am vice president of workplace and strategic sourcing at Etsy. 
I am deeply honored to be here today.
    A little about Etsy, if you are not already a user: Etsy is 
a specialized online marketplace that lets artisans and 
creators in the U.S. sell handmade and unique items to 
customers looking for something special from someone, not just 
anywhere.
    More than 5 million creators are now selling on Etsy, 
mainly women and businesses of one. Our sellers live in nearly 
every county in the U.S., one in four in rural areas, and 
almost all of them work from home.
    Etsy provides a true on-ramp to entrepreneurship. Anyone 
with 20 cents and a creative idea can start a business and pave 
their own path to financial success. In fact, 44 percent of 
Etsy sellers leaned on their creative skills and started their 
business during the first year of the pandemic. For them, it 
was a great renewal, not a resignation.
    We are headquartered in Brooklyn, and we are just north of 
2,400 employees. Designing our spaces with creativity and 
inclusion in mind is part of our DNA. It is probably no wonder 
to you that a company about creativity would integrate that 
value deeply into our company's culture.
    Etsy's offices capture the essence of our marketplace. We 
worked with local makers to create furniture and art that is 
not just inspiring but that shows off the deep connection we 
have with our seller community.
    But our workplace philosophy is more than just about 
aesthetic creativity. It is also about innovating how and where 
we work, keeping sustainability and inclusion at the forefront.
    I would like to start by talking about our underlying 
design and workspace principles, and then I will shift to the 
ways we have adapted during the pandemic.
    First, sustainability. At our Brooklyn headquarters, the 
majority of the wood in our building was either sustainably 
harvested or salvaged. Some of the best lighting at Etsy is 
free. With an open floor plan and by placing workspaces near 
windows, we are able to be harvest daylight and reduce energy 
use. We have also outfitted all of our bathrooms and kitchens 
with low-flow water fixtures.
    Second, inclusivity. We have created multiple employee 
wellness areas, including a quiet green library. We have a 
breathing room for mediation and yoga, and we have a bike room, 
which encourages carbon-neutral and more healthy and planet-
friendly commuting.
    For new mothers and fathers who work at Etsy, we have a 
generous parental leave policy of 26 weeks, and when parents 
return to work, there are places to do all the things that new 
parents need to do, including lactation rooms.
    We are also investing resources to go beyond basic ADA 
standards to make our spaces as accessible and inclusive as 
possible.
    Third is a biophilic, or nature-oriented, design. Our open 
floor plan and abundant windows provide lots of natural light 
and great views of surrounding greenery. We have filled our 
rooftop and terraces with shade-tolerant grasses to create a 
rich green environment of soft textures, providing a tranquil 
and pleasant place to unwind. These are key places employees 
can use for private and formal meetings where sound doesn't 
easily transfer, as well as to socialize or gather informally.
    Those three core philosophies are ironclad. But, of course, 
the pandemic changed everything, and, like Congress and all 
workplaces, we had to adapt quickly. And we learned a lot in 
the process.
    Just months before the pandemic, Etsy was 90 percent 
office-based. Today, Etsy is 60 percent office-based, and we 
are 100 percent hybrid. That means that everything is designed 
for remote or in-person participation.
    For Etsy, the end of the omicron wave is more than just 
about returning to work; it is about the future of work. We 
call it ``How and Where We Work.''
    To start, we have three work modes that all employees can 
choose from. Flex is our default mode in which staff work from 
one of our offices at least 4 to 6 days per month; remote is 
for staff who continue to work primarily from home; and office-
based is for staff who commit to working in-office at least 4 
days a week.
    No matter which work mode you are in, we have designed our 
workflows and workspaces to be fully hybrid and accessible to 
office and remote workers alike. This required some changes to 
how we use our spaces.
    We have shifted from assigned seating to unassigned 
seating, with lockers and other storage so people have a place 
to drop their belongings. We know that people are mostly coming 
to our offices for connection and collaboration, not to sit at 
a desk all day as they might have done before.
    We have added colorful felt screens between our desks, 
which allow for greater privacy and for calls to be taken from 
desks.
    We have increased by 300 percent the quantity of informal, 
flexible seating and common areas. Employees can work and meet 
from anywhere on comfortable furnishings like couches and 
coffee tables, as well as more structured seating.
    We have increased by 150 percent the number of large, 
configurable and reservable meeting spaces to support multiple 
types of collaboration or the need for privacy.
    We also have dedicated quiet zones where anyone can work 
without disruption. And we have invested in norms-setting to 
make hybrid meetings a great experience for both in-person and 
remote participants.
    We are very proud of our workplace approach, from our core 
philosophies to our transitions during the pandemic. We moved 
quickly but thoughtfully, with the goal of ensuring our offices 
enabled productivity, collaboration, and connection.
    Finally, you are all welcome to come visit our Brooklyn 
headquarters anytime. Thank you again for the opportunity to 
address you today, and I welcome any questions you may have.
    [The statement of Mr. Ossman follows:]
    
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    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Ossman.
    Our final witness is Patrick Wand. Mr. Wand is the senior 
manager of the project management office at the Mall of America 
and American Dream. He has overseen the development and 
implementation of Mall of America's wayfinding and customer 
tracking system, which allows Mall of America to make better 
informed marketing and operational business decisions. He 
earned his bachelor of arts in psychology from Gustavus 
Adolphus College. Did I get that right?
    Mr. Wand. Gustavus.
    The Chairman. Norwegian background.
    Mr. Wand, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF PATRICK WAND

    Mr. Wand. Good morning, Chairman Kilmer, Vice Chair 
Timmons, and members of the Select Committee on the 
Modernization of Congress. My name is Patrick Wand, and I am 
the senior manager of the project management office at Mall of 
America in Bloomington, Minnesota.
    For those who have never visited Mall of America, it is the 
Nation's largest shopping, dining and attraction destination. 
Currently, we are welcoming roughly 32 million guests per year, 
which is 80 percent average of our historic average of 40 
million annual visitors. And we have up to 500 tenants, which 
includes more than 60 places to dine and two dozen attractions. 
With more than 10,000 employees in the busiest transit hub in 
Minnesota, Mall of America is a welcoming place, a busy place, 
and it can be a challenging place to navigate.
    I would like to thank the committee for inviting me to 
share insights we have learned at Mall of America over the past 
8 years that will be relevant to your work. Myself and my 
colleagues have had videoconferencing meetings with your staff 
on the topic of wayfinding.
    During our first two decades, Mall of America relied on 
traditional static directories placed throughout the property, 
much like the rest of the industry. Our journey to create a 
better wayfinding system began in earnest in 2014 by trying to 
understand and identify what our primary challenges were and 
which objectives and goals would be must successful. These 
challenges and goals are critical to understand early in the 
process.
    We began by doing the complete analysis, holding focus 
groups, identifying guests' needs, and frustrations. This 
included viewing wayfinding systems in other industries and in 
our competitors. It involved talking to key constituents and 
wayfinding experts. It also was accomplished by observing our 
guests' use of our outdated wayfinding system, talking to them, 
and understanding what they wanted. We listened carefully to 
what our guests were saying, and we did this without bias or 
preconceived notions.
    One of our primary tools when identifying problems and 
solutions is to think of a process as an hourglass. Once we 
identified the problem that our guests were frustrated with our 
wayfinding, we began to look for solutions. Just like an 
hourglass with a wide opening at the top, we throw all of our 
ideas in for consideration. Nothing is off the table. This 
creative approach inevitably leads to a successful result.
    Then, we follow those ideas through the hourglass, refining 
them along the way. Using this thorough process, we are able to 
identify the key building blocks to create a successful 
wayfinding solution for our guests, tenants, employees and 
partners. Before we could build on that solution, an elemental 
foundation was needed: The installation of a comprehensive WiFi 
system throughout our 5.6 million square-foot property. Without 
this critical infrastructure, we wouldn't be able to implement 
the solutions necessary.
    With the layers of concrete, hundreds of shops and 
restaurants, millions of annual guests, you can imagine it was 
a monumental task and a significant investment. Our first step 
was to convince our owners to invest in this technology. To do 
that, we created a short video that showcased what our future 
could look like at Mall of America in a connected world 
environment. Our owners are entrepreneurs and visionaries, and 
they quickly understood the importance of this investment.
    Our extensive WiFi installation project was completed in 
July of 2015, and we were ready for the next step. Our first 
iteration of learning and adjusting--our first iteration was a 
large screen vertical format directory in 2016, and we 
completely missed the mark. Customer feedback and data 
collected from these new directories was not positive. Rather 
than create a solution that worked for our guests, we went with 
a shiny object, and it just didn't work.
    We pivoted and created what is essentially a large iPad 
looking screens that offer privacy to the user, as well as 
functionality they were comfortable with. This new system 
included blue-dot navigation and the directories understand the 
guest orientation in the mall. These new more customer-friendly 
wayfinding directories went live in May of 2017.
    Since then, we have continued to grow the system to more 
than 100 digital directories that are now in place throughout 
Mall of America, and we continue to learn and improve this 
system. With millions of guests who speak languages other than 
English, our directories now feature the nine most frequently 
spoken languages in addition to English.
    Our digital directories also consider accessibility and 
family issues. For those guests using a wheelchair, stroller or 
other device, it will adjust the route to the nearest elevator 
and show the travel time and distance. Likewise, it can help 
identify nearby family restrooms and nursing areas.
    While our digital directories are the foundation of our 
wayfinding program, over the years we have created an ecosystem 
that assists with wayfinding from before a guest ever leaves 
their home, navigating the drive to Mall of America, finding 
convenient parking and traversing the mall.
    This ecosystem includes digital guest service, help to plan 
your trip before leaving home, digital wayfinding signage on 
the freeway and highway system and the city streets surrounding 
the mall, and a technology in our two massive parking ramps 
that show parking space availability. Once a guest exits the 
car, bus, or light rail train, there is ample, easy-to-
understand digital and static directional signage helping them 
navigate mall entrances.
    Once inside, digital directories, guest service personnel, 
static signage, our app, and social media platforms help create 
a seamless experience. All the steps that I shared about our 
wayfinding journey help illustrate that it is just not about 
which tool is best for the solution. To be successful, it is 
important to understand the entire roadmap before beginning the 
journey.
    One final note of advice from our team, don't bite off more 
than you can chew. Take one step at a time, and never forget to 
celebrate your wins along the way. Thank so much for the 
opportunity to testify before you today. I welcome any 
questions you may have.
    [The statement of Mr. Wand follows:]
    
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    The Chairman. Thank you, Mr. Wand.
    I now recognize myself and Vice Chair Timmons to begin a 
period of extended questioning of the witnesses. Any member who 
wishes to speak should signal their request to either Vice 
Chair Timmons or myself.
    Let's start with Mr. Phillips.
    Mr. Phillips. My first question is for all of you. You have 
had a chance to walk around and peruse our environments. You 
came to my office yesterday, and I know you visited others. 
Respectably, what has been your biggest surprise based on what 
you've seen? Positive? Negative?
    Yes. Ms. Irwin.
    Ms. Irwin. I found that the offices have so many people 
doing so many functions all at once. So I think the earlier 
conversation about office space is critical. Finding those 
other opportunities outside of the buildings is critical. 
Having the activity-based planning is critical. But also 
needing to balance that with things that Mr. Ossman was talking 
about, things that are biophilic and things that bring wellness 
and wellbeing.
    I didn't see those types of approaches to the workspace. 
You know, things are noisy. There is a lack of thermal comfort, 
control of that. There aren't--few trees and greenery and 
vegetation. I think some of the courtyard will eventually get 
that. But those are wonderful places to have those impromptu 
meetings, have those collaborative bipartisan discussions in a 
space that is open to everyone.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you.
    Mr. Ossman?
    Mr. Ossman. I think the most surprising thing for me is the 
degree to which your space is used for a wide variety of very 
different and often contrasting purposes and, at the same time, 
how it has been optimized for some more than others. I 
specifically noticed more space optimization around what can 
interface with constituents or certain types of meetings; much 
less so for the day-to-day work of staff.
    So, yeah, I agree with you, as well; there is a lot of 
opportunity, particularly in the staff portions of your 
offices, for modifications and in the public assembly spaces as 
well.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you.
    Mr. Wand.
    Mr. Wand. One thing that struck me was the individual 
offices and how you set that up.
    The Chairman. Mr. Cleaver, you got unmuted there for a 
second.
    Go ahead, Mr. Wand.
    Mr. Wand. I noticed that your office is very different than 
Vice Chair Timmons' office and Chairman Kilmer's office that I 
just saw a stark contrast between those----
    Mr. Phillips. Whose was the nicest?
    Mr. Wand. I felt more at home in your office.
    And I will say that the comparison I was making while I was 
walking in was the office buildings in the Capitol are the size 
of an airport. They are the size of conference centers, and 
everybody understands how to traverse and navigate through an 
airport because you can't miss the signage. There are these 
universal icons that are available.
    These long hallways when you are in the tunnel: Are you 
going towards Rayburn? Where are you going, right? That was 
difficult to understand. And I will say that the directory was 
hard to read; font was challenging. And it was difficult to 
understand the key on--you know, was this Rayburn? Is this--
what office building do I need to go to find Mr. Phillip's 
office?
    Mr. Phillips. As I have been listening, wayfinding is 
terribly important to all of us, and we all get lost. I suspect 
that part of the dynamic right now is also as a security 
element. If the January 6th insurgents knew exactly where they 
were going, it may have been actually challenging for this 
institution. From a security perspective, sometimes you don't 
want to make it easy to find the Speaker's Office or this or 
that person. We have to balance that here. It is complicated.
    But, with that said, based on your experience, Mr. Wand, at 
the Mall of America, which I can tell you as someone who has 
navigated it, it is remarkably stress free for a building its 
size with its plethora of institutions within. It is so easy. 
It is almost antithetical to right here.
    How do you recommend we begin that process to--I know you 
outlined some of it how you did it, but for this institution 
specifically, where would we start?
    Mr. Wand. Yeah. I absolutely acknowledge the challenges of 
security. They are not unlike our own. A building of our size 
with one of the largest private police forces in the country, 
it was something that was extremely important to us. Modern 
technology nowadays allows you to remove areas that you don't 
want on a map to make them guest-friendly and to make them easy 
to read.
    There are maps, as you guys know already, in--by the 
elevators. And I would say looking at those from a more modern 
look and feel would be really, really, I think, helpful.
    There are modern icons, and I would say universal icons for 
``you are here.'' I will say it took me about 3 or 4 minutes to 
find out where I was because I couldn't find the little red 
triangle on the map. So I would say, you know, be creative 
around what you do want to see. And then be aware and really 
just put those into two buckets: This is not accessible to the 
public. We don't want people to see this. I don't think I would 
recommend you would have a wayfinding to the Speaker's Office 
or to any of your offices. But thinking a little bit about 
perpendicular signage in the hallway right here so that I know 
that I am in the right direction for the budget office, the 
budget room, would be really helpful.
    Mr. Phillips. Great. Thank you. I yield back.
    The Chairman. It is really tricky. I have to say, you know, 
you mentioned the 6th of January. The thing that among many 
things that freaked me out that day was I didn't know how to 
get out of the building. My second day in the Rayburn building, 
and I had no idea like where the exit was. The wayfinding is 
the pits, right?
    Mr. Timmons.
    Mr. Timmons. On the subject of trying to find where you are 
going, how to get there, I think technology has a big 
component. But I have actually thought a lot about just color 
coding quadrants. I know it is kind of weird. But when you are 
in Rayburn, one, you don't know where you are. I literally have 
to pull my phone out to figure out to find my friends. I am 
here. This is where I am relative to everything else. If we 
color-coded quadrants to where those red, yellow, blue, green, 
and you know that when you are at a corner, you can see two 
colors. You are like, all right, well, I know that it is over 
there.
    So I don't know, I just think there are some basic things 
that we could do. The other thing is I talked earlier about 
Cannon is here, and then Longworth goes down. Rayburn goes 
down. It is incredibly challenging to understand the different 
numbers, letters, I mean, it is just wild. And I have been here 
for 3 years. I promise you I could not get to his office the 
most efficient way possible. I just know that.
    So what are your thoughts--technology is definitely a 
component to help fix this, but should we just kind of take a 
fresh look at--I drew it. I mean, when you think about it, it 
is literally on a hill. There are different levels. Oh, and 
then ceiling heights are the another one. Here we have 18 to 24 
foot ceilings here, and you go to Longworth, there is 10. So it 
is just--everything is not connected.
    What are your thoughts on that?
    Mr. Wand. I think back to basics, right? I think you hit 
the nail on the head, whether it is color-coding, whether it is 
a numerical system that makes more sense. So, at Mall of 
America, we have addresses, right? West 234, clearly is on the 
west side, second level, No. 34. That makes sense to a lot of 
people.
    And I will say that we have a foundational system just like 
you have, and those were our anchor stores, right? So everyone 
knows where Macy's is, where Nordstrom is, where the entrance 
to L.L. Bean and in the northeast court where Sears used to be. 
Those are the foundations that we have. We are lucky in the 
fact that we are an octagon, right? We are pretty symmetrical. 
You can fold us on top of each other. So, if you walk around in 
a circle, you will eventually end up where you started.
    Not very similar here. But I would say absolutely think 
about the basics: red, yellow, green, something like that would 
really be helpful for the guests to understand, okay, if I am 
in the yellow area and I know I need to go to the green area, 
what is the simplest way to get there? And then, along the way, 
just simple signage, right, that says ``yellow this way'' that 
is right in your face. It would be really, really simple 
without technology.
    Ms. Irwin. Essentially, it is design. It is the psychology 
of design and what you perceive. And if you have a hierarchy 
and a level of things that indicate where you should go, you 
understand that the cafeteria in big letters is around the 
corner. And it is colored green because it is nutritious food 
that is available and is promoted, and everybody should go in 
that direction. And that is your anchor store. You know, so 
there is a lot that just goes into subconscious psychology in 
providing this hierarchy of spaces where people know where to 
go based on the signage and the font size and what it means.
    Mr. Timmons. Sure. Thank you.
    One last question, but before I do, Mr. Ossman, I just want 
to say thank you to Etsy for the work that you were doing 
practicing what you preach in regards to Ukraine. I just want 
to point out that you all canceled the current balance of the 
debts. You buy [inaudible] a million dollars. You are matching 
charitable contributions through relief efforts to employees, 
$750--up to $750 in deactivated Russian-based sellers. You 
know, it is easy to forget that we are so safe in this country, 
and there are terrible challenges in other countries. I just 
appreciate your effort.
    My last question is about outdoor space. We talked about, 
you know, I have an indoor--I have a courtyard view here, and I 
do think there is a huge opportunity. I think, at the end of 
this renovation, there is going to be incredible green space 
and trees and all that stuff. And then you go over to Rayburn. 
They do have a courtyard as well. I do think we could probably 
do a little more there.
    And then there are outdoor spaces as well, both south of 
the House Office Buildings and then around the Capitol. I mean, 
I think we all agree we need to do more to incorporate that. In 
D.C. 8 months out of the year, it is probably possible to go 
outside.
    What are some areas that you have seen, maybe at Mall of 
America or in other places in the country or world, that you 
think we should try to emulate that is doing this really well.
    Ms. Irwin. Well, certainly, there are rooftop, you know, 
green roofs that are able for people to go to. The Library of 
Congress buildings has one, I believe. Thurgood Marshall has an 
enclosed atrium with a large bamboo groove that has seating. 
That is a few steps away from here. Clearly, it has been done. 
It is on the campus. You have those examples.
    Voce. Renovated hotel space?
    Ms. Irwin. I have not seen the hoteling space that Mr. 
Blanton described.
    Mr. Wand. At Mall of America, we have accommodating, I 
would say, lighting, just from natural lighting with the 
skylights, which is really, really helpful. I will say that I 
wished there was more outdoor seating. That is very complex in 
our building. There is only really one location, which is the 
JW Marriott's restaurant that has outdoor seating. And I know 
there was comments earlier--I remember one about a restaurant. 
So just thinking about that and outdoor seating kind of creates 
that team atmosphere for smaller meetings or larger meetings. 
We, as our team went out there and sat and had a dinner 
together, and that is really important.
    Voice. [Inaudible]
    Mr. Wand. Yeah. I was about to say, I think you are being a 
little liberal there.
    Mr. Ossman. I can add that Etsy incorporates outdoor space 
through many of our offices. Our Brooklyn headquarters has 
three outdoor spaces, a rooftop and two terraces. They are very 
much enjoyed by employees. People will hop out there for a 
quick private phone call. There are team celebrations on the 
rooftop. It is also a place to display our values. We have a 
large solar array that helps power the building. There are 
local plants and greenery. They are highly enjoyed places and 
are valuable from an employee-recruiting-and-retention 
standpoint.
    The Chairman. I think it is really interesting stuff. And I 
think it is worth--part of the reason we are looking at this 
is, is the mission of this committee is to make Congress work 
better for the American people. So, as we think about these 
space issues, a lot of it is discussion around like, how do you 
have a more functional work space where people can work 
efficiently and effectively and work on behalf of the American 
people? But that is why we are talking about this stuff.
    So you mentioned just the differences you saw in the three 
offices that you visited. You know, what is unique about this 
place is there is some shared space, the committee rooms and 
whatnot, but by and large, we are like 435 independent 
contractors. And what our expertise is in is not this, right? 
So I think about when you are a new Member coming in, you get, 
you know, Longworth 1420, and they say, so what kind of 
furniture do you want, and how do you want it laid out? And you 
have got folks who maybe have a background in policy or 
political science making space decisions that, frankly, they 
don't know anything about, right? So I guess I share that 
dynamic to ask your advice, right?
    How--are there--because we have shared space, which we have 
talked some about, but then we have these individual offices. 
Are there best practices this type of dynamic where you have 
got folks coming into a workplace without the expertise to 
determine what a good layout is or what proper--when you talked 
about things that might suppress noise and might enable a more 
collaborative workplace.
    So, if you were us, if you were our committee, would you 
make a recommendation saying the Architect of the Capitol or 
somebody ought to come up with three or four or five--sort of, 
here are some options that you may want to think about, right, 
that you may want to optimize around for a modern, efficient 
workplace? Does that question make sense?
    Ms. Irwin. Yes. I missed the last little bit of that, but I 
just wanted to say that, you know, pressing upon the AOC to say 
let's give the new Members coming in a tour of some good 
workspace environments that allow different modes of working. 
There are ways--from the three offices I saw the other day, you 
know, two of them had folks there, you know, in every single 
seat. And one of them, they said that they were in-person all 
the time. And then your office, there is telework, and it is 
very flexible. So each individual office, like you said, has a 
culture and a way of work, but also there is a need to educate 
folks that there are other ways to do things, and education is 
a big part of this.
    So I think just walking through a couple offices that have 
changed, or the offices that Mr. Blanton spoke about in 
Thurgood Marshall, saying: Here is the setup. This is how we do 
our work in our business day-to-day. Does this work for you, 
and how the Member likes to do their business? Are they just on 
videoconference all the time, or do they really want that 
person-to-person, in-person experience sitting at a table 
across from each other, but they need a quiet space to do it? I 
think just education from the get-go is what is needed when you 
come in.
    The Chairman. Anyone else want to swing at that pinch?
    Mr. Ossman. Yeah. One of the things that struck me as I was 
kind of understanding the dynamic going from office to office 
and also your individual teams' kind of cultures and styles was 
there is almost a need for templates for them, right? Like 
there are a few different designs that could optimize for 
different ways of working. And for folks who are not experts in 
this who could come in and just take a template and roll it out 
in their office, I think it could be very beneficial.
    The other thing that comes to mind as I was doing a very 
informal, nonscientific survey questioning some of the staff 
members on their feelings about cubicles. And I was shocked; 
almost everyone actually liked their cubicles. I don't think we 
could recruit a single employee in tech if we had cubicles. 
They are just simply not the standard.
    And so what that said to me is people don't know what they 
don't know either. And it would be helpful to give people 
exposure to other alternatives. I think open-floor seating and 
no partitions between desks, you know, no cubicles could be 
great options for optimizing your space, letting in more light, 
creating a more balanced environment, but they might not be 
desired until people have been exposed to that.
    The Chairman. I think that is really important. It is 
really hard to, you know, to make change when you don't know 
what that looks like, right? One of the things I--one of my 
main takeaways in the work of this committee is, if you want 
things to work differently, do things differently, right?
    Mr. Wand. Yeah. And I would just add, I use the analogy of 
Lego's; if there were a lot of different ways you could maybe 
put together office space. I will say, from our experience at 
Mall of America, we were in the basement. We called it the 
dungeon. There was no natural light, obviously. We were in very 
small cubicles. Now, we are in work pods, and I think we very 
carefully designed that the only people that have offices are 
those that are executives. If you are a director, if you are a 
senior manager, you work in a pod. It allows for collaboration. 
And there was some consternation there, some concerns about 
that, and I wouldn't go back. It hammers to the point of you 
don't know what you don't know until you experience it. But 
also having the flexibility so that you each design your 
offices for the type of work and the type of folks you hire to 
help you do your jobs.
    The Chairman. The other thing I just want to ask about is 
there is--there are a number of constraints that we deal with 
in this environment, right? Security being one; historic 
preservation being another; even thinking about reconfiguring 
hearing rooms. I didn't realize that there is, you know, 
historic preservation around the protection of the dais, like, 
okay. Cost, right, because we have got to be efficient with the 
taxpayers' resources. And there is just not a lot of flexible 
space, right?
    There is 435 independent contractors, plus the folks who 
represent the territories. And then, you know, it is not like 
we have got empty offices sitting around, right? So you heard 
that from the Architect of the Capitol when we are like, well, 
could we have some hoteling space or could there be bipartisan 
workspace? I think the reaction is, sure, but where, right?
    So do you have advice to us on how to think about, because 
we want to make recommendations to improve the functionality of 
this place, how to do that in a way that is conscious of some 
of those constraints?
    Ms. Irwin. Certainly. I think big picture-wise, it is 
having a holistic view of what can improve the physical space, 
as well as the education of the occupants about what is 
historic or what spaces are in use or are underused or can be 
used. And then to have things that are set in that are policies 
that are, we promote fitness so that you can go to the O'Neill 
Building; it is encouraged to get the exercise, use the stairs, 
other ways to get around the House Office Buildings.
    So I think a big picture view--and there are ways to 
measure this. There are standards in place that other agencies 
and corporations are adopting to measure these things. You can 
do a checklist to make sure your physical space is doing X, Y, 
and Z, and that you are educating your occupants, and that you 
have things in place that you are supporting new mothers, 
providing them refrigeration, sinks, a comfortable chair, and a 
quiet place. So there are things that can be instilled across 
the board.
    But for cost, you know, that is words. That is things 
written up. That is not expensive movement of partition walls 
or anything like that. The small scale, the physical space, 
sit-to-stand desks improve ergonomics, improve the comfort of 
somebody who is in their seat from 7:30 in the morning until 
8:30 at night, having that flexibility, providing the telework 
options.
    So different ways of seating. You know, other furniture 
solutions, having the phone booth pods where you can have a 
comfortable, quiet place to go. Some of the telephone booths, 
the historic ones, are being used for that purpose. Old broom 
closets are being transferred and converted into telephone 
private rooms where you can take a cell phone call. So there 
are, you know, modest things like that.
    You know, improving the acoustics on the hard plaster walls 
that aren't going to move. Well, you can hang acoustical panels 
from walls and ceilings in a way that is reversible so it won't 
damage features of the space. Providing a sound masking system, 
you know, that is not going to harm any space. So I think there 
are ways to do a lot of things, incremental moves.
    Even in the cafeteria, it is so noisy and busy in there. 
But there are furniture solutions that can create a little 
acoustical shell, if you will, for a couple of people to sit 
down, that has acoustical padding around it and provides some 
level of privacy. It is not soundproof, but it is something 
that provides a place for people to go and they have that 
privacy that they need.
    Mr. Ossman. On the cost-effective piece, I would just 
emphasize that sustainable design and operational practices can 
be a cost benefit. Things like LED light fixtures, low-flow 
water fixtures, reuse of materials. During the pandemic, Etsy 
retrofitted all of its workstations from one standard height to 
sit-to-stand, and we used the actual same desktop surfaces to 
do that. So there are ways to make improvements while reusing 
or better using what you have.
    I agree with many of the recommendations that you 
mentioned, as well we are a big fan of phone booths. It does 
allow for quick, private calls. They don't need to be bookable 
so that resolves the issue around the booking system of meeting 
rooms that you mentioned.
    But also look more into use of common spaces, hallways, or 
elevator lobby areas for informal gatherings. Having flexible 
furniture, like couches and sofas, where people can just hop 
in, again, without reserving and have a quick meeting. Etsy's a 
big fan of walking meetings. Many people will get outside the 
building, go for a walk around the neighborhood. Here, you 
don't even need to leave the complex. You could stay 
underground the whole time. But it can be great for 
relationship building and informal discussions, not to mention 
also healthy for people.
    The Chairman. I have been here 10 years. I don't think I 
have had a meeting any place other than Cannon, Longworth, or 
Rayburn. You mentioned the O'Neill building. I have heard of 
that, but I don't think I have been in it. I don't know that I 
have been in the Marshall Building. So maybe we need to think 
bigger about the space that we have.
    The other thing, we have space that is chronically 
underutilized. You mentioned in your testimony committee 
hearing rooms when there is not a hearing going on. There are 
other spaces where--one of the problems that we have is the 
reservation system is broken. So what happens is people kind of 
hoard the space, you know, and--or they book space whether or 
not they need it because they want to make sure they have it. 
They do need it, right?
    So you all work in environments where the challenges we are 
facing can't be unique. So I am going to airdrop you onto our 
committee. What ought we recommend to fix some of that, the 
issue around underutilized space? Like I was a management 
consultant 20 years ago. We had a pretty easy way of booking 
empty office spaces and conference rooms, and things like that. 
And I came here, and I am like it has got to be easier than 
this, right?
    Mr. Wand. I will say that we use Outlook, and we use 
reservations for rooms. Those rooms are--there are rules behind 
it. So, for example, you can't schedule something for longer 
than 6 months of reoccurring for that exact reason: Oh, I might 
need it in a year.
    There are rules around approvals, right? So there are 
certain rooms that I can book, but then an approval goes to, 
say, the HR director for their conference room.
    So I think, you know, being that--I asked some of the 
questions yesterday, that you guys are using Outlook. Some of 
that might be really easy to implement with some thought, 
right, and some process for how that should work. That is built 
in, right, for probably not a lot of cost versus a homegrown 
system. It might work a lit bit better and might be a little 
more user friendly as well. You have to weigh those advantages.
    Ms. Irwin. And I think there are comments about how this is 
like an airport; it is like a convention center. If you go to 
conference at a hotel, there are monitors up that tell you what 
the hearings are gonna--could be, what the hearings are, what 
is on the schedule so they know these big rooms, that they are 
not in use the last Friday of every month or something, or 
there is a gap of, you know, 3 hours, and somebody can come in 
and use it for an impromptu meeting.
    Mr. Wand. And I will add there, we played around with some 
technology where the room will know if, say, you are booked for 
an hour but you leave after 15 minutes, it will become 
available for another person to book, say, for the next 45 
minutes. So some of those things are out there. They are not 
terribly expensive. It is a battery-operated Bluetooth, 
essentially. Motion detectors tied into applications that can 
understand there are people in the room.
    Mr. Ossman. We use a combination of things for meeting 
rooms. Like I said, there are some meeting rooms, phone booths 
in particular, that are unbookable. The nature of a phone call 
is you don't know when it is going to happen; you need to hop 
in somewhere. And then, beyond that, the vast majority of our 
rooms are booked through Google Calendar. Everyone has equal 
access. We indicate what types of technology are available in 
each room so people know what they are booking and book a room 
that serves a purpose they need.
    And, lastly, our largest most technologically advanced and 
also reconfigurable rooms are centrally booked. So we have a 
single gatekeeper that allows people to prioritize. I would say 
it is really important everyone has the same access to whatever 
systems that you are using.
    Mr. Phillips. I often ask if people can wave their magic 
wand and now we have Mr. Wand in front of us.
    I have long thought that we could create an app, this whole 
complex, that would accommodate a lot of these things we are 
talking about. You can make reservations, wayfinding.
    I was just looking at the Mall of America app. I don't have 
it. But is there a portion of that app that allows you to 
wayfind, that you could type in a restaurant or a store and it 
will actually help you navigate?
    Mr. Wand. Yeah. So, going back to 2015, part of the WiFi 
project was implementing our first version of our mobile app. 
We had Bluetooth beacons installed along with the wireless 
access points that allowed for blue dot. It was really 
accurate, but the management of that was--there was a lot of 
overhead. In a building of our size that is constantly 
changing, it was really hard to keep up-to-date of paths and 
accuracy of the blue dot.
    Now, essentially what we did was, when we put our 
directories in, we realized that is what really people need. We 
can't try and recreate and be Google, right? We don't have the 
funds to be Google Maps or Apple Maps, but what we can do is, 
you know, look at common best practices for mapping. And so, in 
our app, it is: Where are you now, and where would you like to 
go?
    Simple, goal-oriented, and it draws a line. You can 
actually text on our directories. You can actually text to your 
phone the route, so you obviously have to leave the directory 
to go to the Apple Store. So, if the Apple Store is on the 
other side of the mall, and you need to go another directory, 
certainly there are opportunities. But a lot of people will 
text that route to their phone.
    Applications today are very similar to the mobile websites 
that are out there. So I think I would challenge the thought 
process around, do I need a mobile app, or do I just need a 
more friendly mobile website? But certainly it comes down to, 
you know, what the Sergeant at Arms will allow in terms of maps 
that are publicly available. But there are a lot of things that 
we do.
    We have an internal employee app that allows you to chat 
individually with your supervisor. We have apps that allow you 
to see deals for all the tenants, post job opportunities. It 
has really changed the way we function as an office, especially 
during COVID. And really the goal there, again, not 
complicated: the right information at the right time.
    Mr. Phillips. Well, thank you all very much. I am grateful, 
and very inspirational. Hopefully when you come back in 50, 60 
years, you will see some changes.
    The Chairman. I really like the idea of also just, you 
know, once the building openings back up for visitors broadly, 
I think it would be cool if you are walking down the hall, if 
there was something on the outside of the committee rooms 
saying there is a committee meeting happening on this subject 
right now. This is the people's house, right? There is no 
screen when you come in that says: If you are here to visit 
your Member of Congress, when you are done, these are the 
hearings that are happening if you want to go watch, right? I 
don't know. I feel like my family would enjoy doing that.
    Mr. Phillips. We could do a field trip to Bloomington. I 
would be happy to host--and to Brooklyn.
    Mr. Wand. Absolutely. You are all more than welcome to come 
to Mall of America. We will give you guys the tour.
    The Chairman. I really appreciated you bringing your 
expertise to our committee and again want to acknowledge Mr. 
Phillips and Mr. Davis for their leadership on this issue.
    Before we wrap, I also just want to note some sad news. Our 
committee has done--has really made a point of trying to get 
our committee together and have meals on occasion and try to do 
some of the things that need to happen more in this place. 
Earlier this year, we had dinner with two former Members and 
broke bread and listened to them talk about ways that we might 
be able to fix some of what is broken in this place. And one of 
the former Members who met with us was Vic Fazio, who 
unfortunately passed away earlier this week. And I just want to 
offer condolences to his family. He was definitely a steward of 
this institution. He cared a lot about making Congress work 
better. I want to offer condolences to his family. He will be 
missed.
    Again, I want to thank our witnesses for their testimony. I 
also want to thank our committee members for their 
participation. We had a number of members who popped in and off 
of the screen. So, hopefully, they got to enjoy your expertise.
    I also just want to thank our committee staff. It is hard 
to put together hearings like this, and they do a terrific job. 
So I just want to acknowledge their great work.
    And now the official stuff. Without objection, all members 
will have 5 legislative days within which to submit additional 
written questions for the witnesses to the chair, which will be 
forwarded to the witnesses for their response. I ask our 
witnesses to please respond as promptly as you are able.
    Without objection, all members will have 5 legislative days 
within which to submit extraneous materials to the chair for 
inclusion in our record.
    With that, this hearing adjourned. Thanks, everybody.
    [Whereupon, at 10:42 a.m., the committee was adjourned.

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