[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




 
       MILITARY TO MAIN STREET: SERVING VETERAN ENTREPRENEURSHIP

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               before the

                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                             UNITED STATES
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                              HEARING HELD
                              JUNE 8, 2022

                               __________

 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                               
                               

            Small Business Committee Document Number 117-057
             Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
             
             
                          ______

             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
47-738               WASHINGTON : 2022             
             
             
             
                   HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                 NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman
                          JARED GOLDEN, Maine
                          JASON CROW, Colorado
                         SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
                         KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
                        DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
                         MARIE NEWMAN, Illinois
                       CAROLYN BOURDEAUX, Georgia
                         TROY CARTER, Louisiana
                          JUDY CHU, California
                       DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
                     CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
                          ANDY KIM, New Jersey
                         ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
              BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri, Ranking Member
                         ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas
                        PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                        DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                        CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York
                       ANDREW GARBARINO, New York
                         YOUNG KIM, California
                         BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                         BYRON DONALDS, Florida
                         MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
                      SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin

                 Melissa Jung, Majority Staff Director
            Ellen Harrington, Majority Deputy Staff Director
                     David Planning, Staff Director
                     
                            C O N T E N T S

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Nydia Velazquez.............................................     1
Hon. Blaine Luetkemeyer..........................................     2

                               WITNESSES

Dr. Michael Haynie, Executive Director of the Syracuse University 
  Institute for Veterans and Military Families, Syracuse 
  University, Syracuse, NY.......................................     6
Mr. Brenton Peacock, Director, Florida Veterans Business Outreach 
  Center at Gulf Coast State College, Panama City, FL............     7
Ms. Laurie Sayles, President & Chief Executive Officer, Civility 
  Management Solutions, Greenbelt, MD, testifying on behalf of 
  the Women Veterans Business Coalition..........................     9
Mr. Joe Shamess, Founder & General Partner, Flintlock Capital, 
  Great Falls, VA................................................    11

                                APPENDIX

Prepared Statements:
    Dr. Michael Haynie, Executive Director of the Syracuse 
      University Institute for Veterans and Military Families, 
      Syracuse University, Syracuse, NY..........................    37
    Mr. Brenton Peacock, Director, Florida Veterans Business 
      Outreach Center at Gulf Coast State College, Panama City, 
      FL.........................................................    42
    Ms. Laurie Sayles, President & Chief Executive Officer, 
      Civility Management Solutions, Greenbelt, MD, testifying on 
      behalf of the Women Veterans Business Coalition............    48
    Mr. Joe Shamess, Founder & General Partner, Flintlock 
      Capital, Great Falls, VA...................................    53
Questions and Answers for the Record:
    Questions from Hon. Donalds to Mr. Peacock and Answers from 
      Mr. Peacock................................................    57
    Questions from Hon. Donalds to Mr. Shamess and Answers from 
      Mr. Shamess................................................    58
Additional Material for the Record:
    CUNA (Credit Union National Association).....................    59
    Joint Letter from NAFCU (National Association of Federally-
      Insured Credit Unions) and DCUC (Defense Credit Union 
      Council)...................................................    60


       MILITARY TO MAIN STREET: SERVING VETERAN ENTREPRENEURSHIP

                              ----------                              


                        WEDNESDAY, JUNE 8, 2022

                  House of Representatives,
               Committee on Small Business,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:00 a.m., in Room 
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Nydia Velazquez 
[Chairwoman of the Committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Velazquez, Crow, Davids, Phillips, 
Bourdeaux, Carter, Houlahan, Kim of New Jersey, Craig, 
Luetkemeyer, Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Tenney, Garbarino, and 
Fitzgerald.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Good morning. I call this hearing to 
order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess at any time.
    I would like to begin by noting some important 
requirements. Standing House and Committee rules will continue 
to apply during hybrid proceedings. All Members are reminded 
that they are expected to adhere to these rules, including 
decorum.
    House regulations require Members to be visible through a 
video connection throughout the proceeding, so please keep your 
cameras on. Also, remember to remain muted until you are 
recognized to minimize background noise.
    In the event a Member encounters technical issues that 
prevent them from being recognized for their questioning, I 
will move to the next available Member of the same party and I 
will recognize that Member at the next appropriate time slot 
provided they have returned to the proceeding.
    More than 200,000 service Members transition from military 
to civilian life every day. These veterans take skills gained 
during their service and go on to make a substantial impact 
across many areas of American life. Some go to school, some 
pursue new vocations in the private sector, and many go on to 
start small businesses.
    As Members of this Committee know, starting a small 
business is not for the faint of heart. It takes courage, wits, 
and leadership to achieve the American dream of owning a 
successful enterprise. That is precisely why the men and women 
that serve our country in the military are naturally suited to 
become entrepreneurs.
    Former service Members own approximately 1.8 million 
businesses across the United States, most of which are small. 
These businesses employ millions of workers, are responsible 
for over $1 trillion in revenue, and do so much for their 
communities.
    That is why it is concerning to see that veteran self-
employment rates have declined from 16 percent in 1998 to 11 
percent in 2018. To reverse this trend, we must do all we can 
to reduce barriers to entrepreneurship for those that have 
served our country.
    Like all entrepreneurs, veteran business owners express 
concern about their ability to access capital. They also cite 
other issues such as not knowing how to get started, accessing 
technical assistance, and finding a mentor.
    Fortunately, the SBA has a range of counseling, training, 
and lending options tailored to the needs of veterans and their 
families. Today, I want to look closely at these programs and 
discuss ways to improve these offerings to operate more 
effectively and reach more veterans.
    During the 117th Congress, we have taken steps to empower 
veterans and military families who want to start or grow their 
businesses. For example, last summer, our Committee passed the 
Veteran Entrepreneurship Training Act of 2021, which was 
introduced by Representative Brad Schneider and Vice Ranking 
Member Williams.
    The bill would codify the Boots to Business Program, which 
offers transitioning service Members and military spouses 
information about self-employment and business ownership.
    The legislation passed the House last fall, and a companion 
bill was recently reported favorably by the Senate Small 
Business and Entrepreneurship Committee. We hope the bill will 
pass the Senate soon.
    This is a prime example of the actions that Congress can 
take to make it easier for veterans to get their businesses up 
and running.
    Today, I look forward to hearing from representatives from 
across the veteran entrepreneurial ecosystem about the 
challenges veteran entrepreneurs face and how SBA programs can 
continue to improve. I hope that your testimony will shed light 
on how these offerings helped, where they fell short, and what 
Congress can do to ensure these programs meet veteran 
entrepreneurs' needs.
    I would now like to yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. 
Luetkemeyer, for his opening statement.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you, Madam Chair, for calling 
today's hearing.
    Last month was Military Appreciation Month, and we 
celebrate all who served our country and risked their lives for 
our freedom. We also mourn the loss of those who gave their 
lives in service to our country.
    I want to start off by thanking all our nation's veterans, 
service Members, and their families for their sacrifice to our 
great country, including those testifying before us today.
    As we all know, veteran-owned small businesses exemplify a 
resiliency unlike any other. These brave men and women not only 
served our country in one of the highest regards, but also came 
home and continued to support their communities through 
entrepreneurship and employing fellow veterans.
    There are more than 350,000 veteran-owned businesses in 
this country and they provide an estimated 4 million jobs. From 
my interactions and conversations with veteran-owned business 
owners, they give back to their communities, they hire and 
support fellow veterans, and they greatly contribute to our 
economy.
    During National Veteran Small Business Week in November, I 
was honored to host a veteran small business showcase and 
roundtable. Over a dozen veteran entrepreneurs brought items 
that represented their businesses to the capital and shared 
their stories. So today I would like to take a moment to share 
some of those amazing veteran-owned small business stories.
    Four Brothers Mead, located in the great state of Missouri, 
is a veteran-owned and operated family company bringing people 
of all backgrounds and ethnicities together through Mead.
    The four brothers, which also, by the way, includes 
brothers-in-laws here, include Bryan Becker, a veteran combat 
medic and sergeant; Chris Schulte, who is currently serving in 
active reserve status as a military police staff sergeant; Joe 
Luck, a U.S. Army veteran staff sergeant; and Dan Luck, an Air 
Force veteran and former air transportation airman.
    Valhalla's Forge LLC is a veteran and family-owned company 
that makes custom tables, flags, shields, plaques, and more 
with a focus on giving back to families of the fallen and 
retirees. After 20 deployments and 15 awards for his service, 
including a Bronze Star, Retired Navy Seal Chief Warrant 
Officer James Hintzke is the CEO of this inspiring business.
    Soulcial Kitchen was founded by Brigadier General (Ret.) 
John Michel, who served 26 years in the Air Force and led 
NATO's efforts to build the Afghan Air Force. He continues to 
serve others through his hospitality park, which features 
restaurants, bars, food trucks, and a dog park. He also 
supports other veteran entrepreneurs and created the first food 
truck entrepreneur program.
    I would also like to recognize other veterans who attended 
the showcase and roundtable and shared their stories.
    Brian Bufka, United States Navy veteran and owner of 1st 
Place Printing; Christine Lantinen, an Army veteran reservist 
and president of Maude, Inc.; David Haydel, a veteran Marine 
Corps reservist and owner of Haydel's Bakery; Donald Miller, 
retired U.S. Navy veteran and assistant director of the 
Veterans Business Outreach Center in Norfolk, Virginia; Jerome 
Johnson, retired Army Lieutenant Colonel and a Dunkin' Donuts, 
Baskin-Robbins franchisee; Joseph Lindenmayer, U.S. Marine 
Corps veteran and CEO of California Closets Gulf Coast; Richard 
Cope, a U.S. Marine Corps combat officer veteran and CEO of KGM 
Technologies; Robert Holt, U.S. veteran and founder of Southern 
Draw Cigars, LLC; Scott Matheny, a service-disabled Marine 
Corps veteran and the president and founder of Semper Tek, 
Inc.; Timothy Shirley, a veteran Marine Corps staff sergeant 
and owner of Hive and Honeybee; and Wes Hester, a service-
disabled U.S. veteran and CEO of Foxhole Technology.
    And we also have with us today Mr. Shamess, who will 
testify here in a moment and was at that event as well.
    As you can tell by the names of some of these companies, 
their veterans still think in military terms.
    In addition to these veteran entrepreneurs, there are 
countless others who deserve our deepest thanks and applause.
    Again, we will have Mr. Shamess here shortly, but he was an 
Air Force Special Operations pilot and National Guard pilot. He 
is the cofounder of Flags of Valor and a founder and general 
partner of Flintlock Capital. Veteran entrepreneurs like Mr. 
Shamess are the definition of American values, service, and 
innovation.
    It is incredible to hear the stories of how veteran small 
business owners have used their experiences and skills they 
have learned in the service to run a successful business. 
However, I have also heard about the unique challenges that 
veteran entrepreneurs face.
    In addition to skyrocketing inflation, supply chain 
disruptions, labor shortages and burdensome regulations, 
veteran-owned small businesses face added challenges in 
accessing capital and resources.
    The SBA has counseling, capital, and contracting programs 
that are designed to assist veteran entrepreneurs in addressing 
these challenges. It is important that Congress conducts 
oversight and ensures that these programs effectively serve 
small businesses, including veteran-owned businesses.
    For this reason I introduced the Improve the SBA Act, which 
will increase accountability at the SBA, empower entrepreneurs 
through counseling, enhance access to capital opportunities, 
and improve federal contracting programs. Additionally, after 
receiving feedback from veteran small business owners regarding 
access to capital, I wrote a letter requesting the GAO to 
conduct an analysis of the effectiveness and efficacy of the 
SBA's Access to Capital Program, specifically as it relates to 
veteran-owned businesses.
    Further, Vice Ranking Member Williams and Congressman 
Schneider introduced the Veteran Entrepreneurship Training Act, 
which codifies the Boots to Business Veteran Training Program.
    As Republican leader of the House Commitmtee on Small 
Business, I will continue to advance policies that empower our 
veteran entrepreneurs, ensure the SBA resource partners are 
meeting their needs, and maintain the integrity of contracting 
programs, and support access to capital. I look forward to 
continuing to learn from our veteran entrepreneurs in how we 
can support their growth and prosperity.
    It should also be noted that Secretary Yellen has still not 
been to this Committee and fulfilled her statutory duty which I 
ask the Chairman to look into again.
    With that, Madam Chair, I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Luetkemeyer. The 
gentleman yields back.
    I would like to take a moment to explain how this hearing 
will proceed.
    Each witness will have 5 minutes to provide a statement and 
each Committee Member will have 5 minutes or questions. Please 
ensure that your microphone is on when you begin speaking and 
that you return to mute when finished.
    With that, I would like to introduce our witnesses.
    Our first witness is Dr. Michael Haynie. Dr. Haynie is 
Syracuse University's Vice Chancellor for Strategic Initiatives 
and Innovation, and also the Barnes Professor of 
Entrepreneurship. Dr. Haynie served 14 years as an officer in 
the United States Air Force and in 2011, he founded Syracuse 
University's Institute for Veterans and Military Families, the 
nation's first interdisciplinary institute created to inform 
and advance the policy, economics, and wellness concerns of 
America's veterans and families. Welcome, sir.
    Our second witness is Mr. Brenton Peacock. Mr. Peacock is 
the Director and Business Analyst for the Veterans Business 
Outreach Center (VBOC) serving the State of Florida. Mr. 
Peacock was awarded Regional Certified Business Analyst of the 
Year in 2009 and again in 2012, then Regional Consultant of the 
Year in 2014. A successful entrepreneur himself, Mr. Peacock's 
work experience includes 14 years in business counseling and 
teaching. Welcome.
    Our third witness is Ms. Laurie Sayles. She is the 
President and CEO of Civility Management Solutions and 
AmeriCorp veteran. After serving 10 years in the Marine Corps, 
Ms. Sayles founded Civility Management Solutions in 2012 to 
optimize the performance and productivity levels of customers. 
Civility Management Solutions is an SBA certified 8(a). VA 
verifies the service-disabled veteran, economically 
disadvantaged woman, and women-owned small businesses. Welcome 
back, Ms. Sayles.
    I will now yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. Luetkemeyer, to 
introduce our final witness.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    I am honored to introduce our witness, Mr. Joe Shamess, 
American entrepreneur and hero. Mr. Shamess began his military 
service as a cadet at the United States Air Force Academy and 
served 11 years as an Air Force Special Operations pilot and 7 
years as an Air National Guard pilot. During his service, he 
flew an impressive 168 combat missions and was one of the first 
pilots to stand up operations in East Africa against al-Qaeda 
to fight the War on Terror. In addition to his notable military 
service, Mr. Shamess has been an entrepreneur since he started 
his first business at age 15. In 2015, he cofounded Flags of 
Valor with U.S. Army paratrooper veteran Brian Stoerts. Flags 
of Valor is the example of the American dream. They started out 
as a two-person garage operation and have transformed into a 
successful American-made, veteran-owned manufacturing small 
business known across the country for their craftsmanship. To 
fulfill their commitment to give back, Flags of Valor reports 
that they have created more than 70 veteran jobs and raised 
$1.7 million for veterans and first responder charities. Mr. 
Shamess is also the founder and general partner of Flintlock 
Capital, an investment management company with a focus on 
investing in veteran-led companies. I first had the privilege 
of meeting Mr. Shamess during National Veteran Small Business 
Week when I hosted a Veteran Small Business Showcase and 
Roundtable. He is a true patriot and a champion of America's 
small businesses and manufacturing. Mr. Shamess, we are glad to 
have you back on Capitol Hill before the Full Committee. Your 
extensive experience and passion for empowering veteran 
entrepreneurs will benefit this conversation immensely. Again, 
thank you for your service. Thank you for joining today.
    I would also like to thank our other witnesses for their 
service and thank you for being here with us as well.
    Madam Chair, with that I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
    Thank you all for being here. I would like to begin with 
recognizing Dr. Haynie for 5 minutes.

  STATEMENTS OF DR. MICHAEL HAYNIE, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE 
    SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY INSTITUTE FOR VETERANS AND MILITARY 
   FAMILIES, SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY; BRENTON PEACOCK, DIRECTOR, 
 FLORIDA VETERANS BUSINESS OUTREACH CENTER AT GULF COAST STATE 
COLLEGE; LAURIE SAYLES, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, 
CIVILITY MANAGEMENT SOLUTIONS; JOE SHAMESS, FOUNDER AND GENERAL 
                   PARTNER, FLINTLOCK CAPITAL

                  STATEMENT OF MICHAEL HAYNIE

    Mr. HAYNIE. Chairwoman, Ranking Member, and Members of the 
Committee, thank you so much for the opportunity to be here and 
share my experiences relative to the military-connected 
business ownership community.
    First, I want to express my appreciation to this Committee 
for your longstanding history of support to veteran-owned 
business in the United States. I have been engaged with the 
veteran business ownership community for more than 15 years and 
over that time this Committee has been a consistent and 
thoughtful partner to those of us who have been working to 
advance veteran business ownership in the United States. Your 
support to service Members, veterans, their families has been 
instrumental to the well-being of the veteran community. And as 
a veteran myself, I would like to say thank you for that.
    Over the past decade, Syracuse University's D'Aniello 
Institute for Veterans and Military Families, or IVMF for 
short, has applied a data-driven lens to the challenge of 
understanding the opportunities and the pitfalls associated 
with the transition from military to civilian life. And one 
consistent finding of that work has been the strong pull to 
business ownership common among many veterans.
    This is not something new. Over the past 75 years, veterans 
have been over indexed to business ownership in the United 
States relative to other segments of American society.
    For that reason alone, public and private sector champions 
should continue to collaborate on pathways appropriate to 
realize the potential inherent in empowering veterans to serve 
this nation yet again now as America's next great generation of 
business owners and leaders.
    In fact, that potential will be on display Friday, right 
here at an event in Washington, D.C., when the Institute for 
Veterans and Military Families, in partnership with the team at 
Inc. and the Inc. 5000 will announce and honor the 2022 Vet100, 
the 100 fastest-growing, veteran-owned businesses in America.
    This year's Vet100 includes changemakers like Venus Quates. 
Venus is an Air Force veteran who founded her firm LaunchTech 
in 2016 to provide technology and mission support solutions to 
customers in the space and health care and financial services 
sectors. Venus participated in the IVMF's Veteran Women 
Igniting the Spirit of Entrepreneurship Program back in 2018 
and after that her business took off. On Friday, Venus will be 
recognized by Inc. and the IVMF as the number three fastest-
growing, veteran-owned business in America, and as one of the 
10 fastest-growing, women-owned businesses, veteran or not, in 
all of the United States.
    We will also recognize United States Marine Corps veteran 
Chris Dambach and his business, Industry Standard. Chris 
separated from the Marine Corps in 2010 and launched a small 
residential lawncare business with some used lawnmowers and a 
truck he borrowed from his brother-in-law. In 2012, an SBA 
advisor recommended that Chris participate in the IVMF's 
Entrepreneurship Boot Camp for Veterans with Disabilities 
Program, and in quoting Chris, ``That program changed my 
approach to running and growing my business.'' After that 
experience, Chris expanded to hardscaping, and then janitorial 
services, then to construction, and like Venus, today, Marine 
Corps veteran Chris Dambach is the founder and owner of one of 
America's fastest-growing, privately-held firms.
    I share these stories only to make the point that working 
together we have a collective opportunity to transform the same 
leadership and ingenuity that served our military so well on 
the battlefield into an engine of new venture creation in 
America. And that opportunity is strong and compelling, 
certainly and in part due to the good work of this Committee. 
The resources and supportive services enabling a transition 
pathway for service Members to business ownership, both across 
the public and private sector are vastly, vastly improved 
relative to what they were a decade ago.
    That said, we know from the community we serve that there 
is more work to do. Each year, our institute conducts a 
national survey of military-affiliated entrepreneurs. This is 
the largest primary data collection of military business owners 
outside of the federal government in America. And our intent is 
to better understand the barriers of economic, social, cultural 
barriers to business ownership for those who have served in the 
military.
    We just released the 2022 version of that study, and I just 
want to highlight one thing that came from that study of many 
things. And that relates to women veterans and female military 
spouses. Today, women are pursuing military service at an 
unprecedented rate, and their service often equips them with 
unique skills and abilities that are aligned with the civilian 
labor market. However, too often our women veterans have faced 
unique challenges bridging those skills to traditional 
employment. If there is an upside to that troubling story, it 
is that many of them turn at very high rates to business 
ownership. Small business ownership enables military connected 
women to pursue professional opportunities and careers in the 
face of some of those barriers. Consequently, collective action 
to create inclusive pathways to business ownership for 
military-connected women should be a national priority. If we 
do this, all Americans will benefit.
    With that, I will end my formal remarks.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Dr. Haynie.
    Now we recognize Mr. Peacock for 5 minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF BRENTON PEACOCK

    Mr. PEACOCK. Good morning. Thank you for having me today. 
Thanks for your support of veteran-owned small businesses.
    The Florida Veterans Business Outreach Center is one of 22 
Veterans Business Outreach Centers or VBOCs serving the United 
States. Each VBOC is assigned geographical territory. Our 
territory is Florida. We are hosted by Gulf Coast State College 
in Panama City Florida, home to Tyndall Air Force Base and 
Naval Support Activity Panama City. We report to the North 
Florida SBA District Office in Jacksonville and the South 
Florida SBA District Office in Miami, Florida. We provide 
business consulting services to active duty military Members, 
veterans of all eras, and all branches of the U.S. Military 
including National Guard and Reservists, U.S. Coast Guard 
Members, military spouses, and widows of veterans who wish to 
start a business.
    The Florida VBOC is the initial VBOC established following 
a successful proposal to Public Law 106-50, cited as the 
Veterans Entrepreneurship and Small Business Development Act of 
1999. Our competencies include teaching Boots to Business 
classes, start-up instruction, assisting first-time business 
owners as they transition or retire from military service, and 
assisting veterans and military spouses with the process of 
government contracting. We are currently in the last year of 
our 5-year program cycle before rebidding on the project for 
the next funding cycle.
    I will share with you statistics on Boots to Business 
classes, numbers of consulting sessions, and the number of 
clients we have assisted, as well as veteran business startups, 
and accomplishments made by our veteran clients in winning 
government contracts.
    Boots to Business. There are 14 Florida Military 
Installations that participate in the Transition Assistance 
Program (TAP) with Boots to Business (B2B). The Boots to 
Business classes are managed by TAP Personnel and the SBA 
Office of Economic Development specialist/veteran 
representatives, who coordinate the logistics of the program 
for the North and South Florida District Offices for 
scheduling. The Boots to Business classes are taught at each 
base on a quarterly basis or more often if the number of 
separating or retiring military Members requires it.
    Since May of 2018, the Florida VBOC Office has taught 165 
Boots to Business classes and has instructed 909 Boots to 
Business modules to over 3,200 separating or retired military 
Members and spouses.
    Nathan Pollock is an Army veteran who completed the Boots 
to Business class. His plan was to open an upscale cigar lounge 
with his spouse. He worked at a cigar lounge after his 
separation to learn best practices before relocating to New 
Port Richey, Florida. The VBOC office assisted Nathan with 
business plan research from IBISWorld, business plan revision, 
assistance with applying for business licenses, and eventually 
assisting him with finding a lender and closing on an SBA Loan 
to open Patriot Stogies, LLC in March 2022. Nathan proudly 
served our country for 20 years as an Army helicopter pilot. 
Nathan said, ``The VBOC was able to find me a lender who could 
support my business, and they quickly got me a commitment 
letter. Additionally, the VBOC was able to set me up with a 
free consultation with an attorney to discuss a zoning issue 
with my building's sign. I appreciate the advice and counsel I 
have received from the entire VBOC team with the assistance 
they have provided me along the way.''
    Start-Up Counseling. We have provided over 13,000 
counseling sessions to 11,000 veterans and military spouses 
during the current program. We assisted in the creation of 498 
businesses by assisting with feasibility studies and helping 
develop business plans during the program period. Veterans and 
military spouses with our guidance have started businesses 
ranging from drone-operated home inspection companies, to 
retail candy stores, and purchasing franchises. Jo Kegley, a 
U.S. Navy veteran, reached out to the VBOC as a resource to 
help grow her weight-loss business. The VBOC staff guided her 
in registering her LLC, provided information on becoming Woman-
Owned Small Business (WOSB) Certified, and provided a letter of 
recommendation to apply for funding. Jo is the founder of Flip 
Flop Diet, a sustainable eating and scheduled cheating diet and 
weight loss maintenance plan. After separating from the 
military, she documented and tested the Flip Flop Diet using 
her proven strategies to help family and friends lose weight 
and now plans to offer her diet to the public. ``I am so 
grateful for all of the assistance and ongoing support that I 
receive from VBOC. The VBOC has certainly contributed to the 
development of the Flip Flop Diet and to my success in 
receiving initial seed funding to launch my business. I 
recommend their services to any veteran that is in business or 
is thinking about starting one.''
    Government Contracting. The Florida VBOC has a unique 
strength in assisting veterans and military spouses by being 
competitive in government contracting at the federal, state, 
and local level, as well as bidding on and winning subcontracts 
to prime contractors.
    The Florida VBOC story is one of 22 unique stories defined 
by local economies and the veterans and military spouses who 
reside therein. They are bound by their common desire to own 
and operate successful veteran-owned small businesses. Thank 
you.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Peacock.
    Now Ms. Sayles, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF LAURIE SAYLES

    Ms. SAYLES. Yes, ma'am. Chair Velazquez, Ranking Member 
Luetkemeyer, and Members of the Committee, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify today.
    My name is Laurie Sayles and I am a United States Marine 
Corps veteran and the founder of Civility Management Solutions 
located in Greenbelt, Maryland.
    CivilityMS is a professional consulting services firm 
working in both the government and the commercial space.
    Currently, I serve as Chair of the Women Veterans Business 
Coalition (WVBC) and I am testifying today on their behalf.
    The WVBC brings together diverse stakeholders to provide a 
strong, collective voice for policies that will strengthen 
businesses owned by women veterans. While federal actions are 
designed to be helpful to all veterans, women carry an 
important and respected voice on behalf of those who have 
served.
    Currently 2 million women veterans live in the United 
States and comprise nearly 20 percent of serving military 
personnel and 10 percent of the veteran population. As the 
number of women serving in the military has increased, so has 
the number of women veterans who start businesses.
    Entrepreneurship has always been in my blood. Raised in the 
1960s in a low-income household from Chicago, I have always 
known and learned the need to earn my own way. Starting a 
business has been an extremely rewarding part of my life and I 
attribute many of my business successes to the lessons I 
learned serving in the United States Military.
    Once I was introduced to government contracting in my 
civilian career, I knew I had found my destiny in 
entrepreneurship as I saw it as the wealth transfer. There are 
numerous SBA resources that helped me along the way. When I 
first considered starting my business, I sought out SCORE 
Mentor. My mentor, a retired General of the United States Army, 
gave me incredible guidance on the steps of developing my 
company. Navigating our federal contracting system can be 
difficult, and resources from my local PTAC focused on how I 
could successfully do business with the federal government.
    As a woman Marine, I know the importance of training. The 
CivilityMS team has taken advantage of the SBA's 7(j) training 
and found it valuable. However, I would encourage the SBA to 
consider having two tracks in 7(j), one for businesses who are 
in the beginning phases and one for the program for advanced 
companies that are small, to continue to thrive throughout 
their business lifecycle and the SCORE mentors offer us.
    One additional training program that has crucial to the 
success of my business is the Veteran Institute for Procurement 
(VIP). I am thrilled to see the expansion of the program, 
especially at no cost to veterans.
    While I speak highly of many of the SBA's programs, I also 
know that there are many veteran-owned businesses unable to 
access these resources because of their location. For example, 
I applaud the expansion of VBOCs, which play an integral role 
in supporting veteran-owned small businesses throughout their 
entrepreneurial journey. However, I did not utilize VBOC 
because there was not one in Maryland, and I am glad to say 
that our state will be adding one soon.
    One area of particular concern as a Black woman that is a 
service-disabled veteran is the fight to access capital. Women 
still receive only 4 percent of commercial dollars that are 
loaned. Like many small businesses, I initially tried working 
with the large businesses, large banks, but like many, I gave 
up quickly. I sought out alternative lenders. I was fortunate 
to connect with an SBA 7(a) lender to obtain a small loan and 
then later take advantage of the Paycheck Protection Program 
during the pandemic.
    While these funding streams have been helpful, government 
contractors face unique challenges. It would be helpful to the 
veteran business contracting community if SBA was able to come 
up with a line of credit methodology for companies that have 
federal customers.
    To address some of the particular challenges faced by women 
veterans, WVBC suggests the following recommendations:
    One, first, increase incentives for prime contractors and 
the federal government to award more contracts to women 
veteran-owned small businesses.
    Two, second, change the restrictive re-marriage eligibility 
requirement for Survivor Benefit Plan (SBP) beneficiaries.
    And third, allow veterans to use the GI Bill benefits to 
start a business. All veterans, and particularly women 
veterans, are an important sector of our economy. By 2040, 
women veteran population is projected to grow to 18 percent.
    Our businesses face unique challenges that require unique 
support to grow and thrive. We applaud the SBA and this 
Committee for continuing to support veteran business owners. 
And thank you for holding this important hearing. And I look 
forward to any questions.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you very much.
    Now we recognize Mr. Shamess for 5 minutes. Welcome.

                    STATEMENT OF JOE SHAMESS

    Mr. SHAMESS. Thank you, Chairwoman Velazquez, Ranking 
Member Luetkemeyer, and the Members of the Committee, 
especially you, Ranking Member Luetkemeyer for hosting the 
events that you have hosted and then the events also in 
conjunction with Leader McCarthy. They have really highlighted 
not just veteran entrepreneurs but also the challenges facing 
small business in America. So thank you for that.
    As a founder and general partner at Flintlock Capital, in 
addition to my work owning and operating other businesses, I 
can tell you that I have gotten a sample, a wide swath of what 
it is to be a business owner in America, from manufacturing to 
tech, to also empowering future entrepreneurs to grow the 
businesses of tomorrow. And looking at all the things that I 
get to witness today, the outlook is still positive but it is a 
very challenging environment. What inspires me is what I have 
seen in the way that these small businesses are managing 
inflation just as an example. They are ringing out everything 
they possibly can in their businesses to be able to stay ahead 
of it and to be able to continue to operate. And the small 
business community despite all of that continues to move 
forward. And I think that speaks volumes about the American 
spirit of free enterprise. And that is something I am very 
proud of.
    Looking at the veteran ecosystem in business, access to 
capital is certainly something that has come up multiple times. 
There is absolutely a challenge there, and there are 7(a) 
options you can get through the SBA and other programs.
    I worked with the last Congress with Representative Tulsi 
Gabbard's office on H.R. 4991, a bill specifically designed to 
address this issue. And to your point, to create an opportunity 
to access capital through your Post-9/11 GI Bill as an option.
    And so one of the things that we worked on was how you 
could shape that. And there are already funding limitations 
associated with the bill of what the earned credit, the earned 
amount is based on what state you live in. And if the spirit of 
the Post-9/11 GI Bill is to create education opportunities, to 
create an opportunity for economic upward mobility for example, 
there are very few things that create more opportunity for 
economic upward mobility than business ownership. And so that 
is not just for the individual. That is the family. That is the 
community. That is everybody that is involved in that.
    And so I would ask that this Committee look at bringing 
that bill forward in a bipartisan way. I know that on her 
departure it was handed to Representative Panetta's office in 
California, but to this day it still has not moved forward. So 
to have that reintroduced I think would be fantastic for the 
small business community, especially the veteran small 
businesses.
    Additionally, I think you can hear today about all the 
resources that are out there but what happens is there is a 
disconnect between those resources and the veteran that needs 
that information, whether it is access to capital or just how 
do I do this? And the compliance alone, whether you are looking 
at it from a federal statute or a state statute level, I do not 
care if you are a one man falafel stand or you have a 1,000 
employee manufacturing company, compliance is a lot. Right? And 
so there are a lot of resources that can help entrepreneurs, 
especially veteran entrepreneurs navigate that. But they are 
spread out across so many organizations and so many public-
private partnerships that are doing good work but they are all 
doing it in their own pocket. Syracuse University, for example, 
has become a great resource and one that I have looked to over 
the years, but that is because I knew about them and what they 
were doing. A lot of people do not.
    And so what I would ask is that you task the Government 
Accountability Office with doing a total review of the programs 
that are currently available, whether it is SBDCs, the Small 
Business Administration, SCORE, the VA, DARPA, the non-dilutive 
funding that is available for business startup that is 
absolutely outstanding for a lot of these businesses, public-
private partnerships, and provide a report that is actionable 
for TAPs programs and other things, whether it is the VA or DoD 
to be able to bring this to bear for the veteran community.
    The last thing I want to say is there is a bigger issue 
here and it is not just related to small business ownership. 
And I think it is what I would regard as a little bit of a 
higher calling when it comes to supporting veteran 
entrepreneurs. And that is we have a voluntary military, right? 
And so how does the military grow and how does it recruit? And 
one of the best ways it does that is by seeing people that have 
served and the impacts they make in their communities.
    So, as the number of military service Members as a 
percentage of society continues to go down, there is no better 
way to demonstrate their impact, both from a national level, 
national security level, but also inside their communities by 
seeing them start and run businesses. Because they are 
employing their neighbors. They are a great example. And the 
values that made them successful in uniform, those same values 
transfer back to the community. And that is a win for everybody 
involved. Thank you.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Shamess.
    Now I recognize myself for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Peacock, last November the House passed H.R. 3469, the 
Veteran Entrepreneurship Training Act of 2021. The bill will 
codify the Boots to Business Program for the next 5 years. Why 
should we codify the Boots to Business program for our veterans 
and their spouses as they transition out of the military 
service?
    Mr. PEACOCK. The business program provides a good pathway 
to entrepreneurship by showing kind of a top of the waves 
introduction to opening and starting their own business. Also 
now as we think veterans maybe signed up, joined the military 
at age 18. Maybe you worked a part-time job packing groceries, 
maybe delivering papers, but you certainly probably have not 
owned a business.
    The Boots to Business program which helps military service 
and things that were learned in military service to owning a 
small business and being the founder of your own company. It is 
a good resource. I think it helps that veteran, that military 
spouse to be able to see what they have learned through their 
military service and apply that to business ownership and 
operations. And I think it should be required for anyone to be 
separating or retired from military service as well as the 
spouse to attend the complete program to get a full 
understanding of what is available from the SBA.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
    Dr. Haynie, prior to the pandemic, veteran entrepreneurship 
had been declining. However, in a recent hearing, SBA 
Administrator Guzman testified that there have been 9.1 million 
new business applications since the beginning of 2020. What 
trend have you seen since the beginning of the pandemic with 
regard to veteran entrepreneurship?
    Mr. HAYNIE. You know, throughout history, you can see 
trends in startup and entrepreneurship in general for all 
Americans that are aligned with economic conditions also as a 
function of access to the traditional labor market. I think one 
of the things we saw with the COVID pandemic was restricted 
access to the traditional labor market as a consequence, again, 
for all Americans, business ownership and self-employment 
became a path to a career and an income and stability in the 
family. You will see all the way back to World War II, you can 
align trends in business ownership specifically for veterans. 
But also for other segments of society that may be are shut out 
sometimes of the normal traditional economic model up and down 
over time. It is the case that throughout that 75 year period, 
veterans have been over indexed.
    There was a study done by the federal government 7 years 
after World War II. Fifty-four percent of the 12.5 million 
veterans that returned from World War II, 54 percent within 7 
years had launched a small business in this country. So I think 
it is absolutely the case that this community will continue to 
be pulled to and drawn to small business ownership over time.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
    Ms. Sayles, you have utilized many of the SBA resources 
throughout your entrepreneurship journey. What are the benefits 
of SBA's entrepreneurial ecosystem, and where can improvements 
be made to better meet the needs of veteran entrepreneurs?
    Ms. SAYLES. Thank you for the question.
    Well, I would say that having more offerings throughout the 
country, because there are certain areas where people are 
denied that ability. Now, thanks to the world of technology now 
there is more potential of getting some training and things of 
that nature but being able to access that without any cost is 
also a major thing. Because you are starting a business so your 
cost is low, of course, and to be able to go get the training 
necessary and be taught. And as a veteran, one thing that makes 
us the greatest in the world, right, military, is because of 
training. So we understand the ability to get it. We just need 
to have access.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Dr. Haynie, SBA announced this year 
that nonprofit entities are eligible to provide Boots to 
Business courses at military installations outside of the 
continental U.S. Can you speak to the importance of providing 
Boots to Business training to military service Members and 
their spouses where they are stationed no matter the geographic 
location?
    Mr. HAYNIE. I can. I particularly have a bias here I will 
admit right up front. I wrote the original Boots to Business 
curriculum when it was first proposed. Very passionate about 
that pathway. I think pure and simple, just because you happen 
to be a service Member who is transitioning from serving this 
country in uniform to civilian life stationed overseas, you 
should not have a different set of opportunities afforded to 
you because of that fact. You can look at, for example, we are 
flying training teams to U.S. Navy ships at sea to conduct 
Boots to Business training because those sailors, many of them 
when their ship comes into port, their contracts have expired 
and they are on their way out the door. It is the same for 
those overseas locations.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. My time has expired. Thank you so 
much.
    Now I yield to Mr. Luetkemeyer for 5 minutes.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Mr. Shamess, in your testimony you challenge us to, and I 
quote, ``Do no harm and avoid policies that may erode the 
resilience of the entrepreneur.''
    I appreciate that challenge. Do you believe increasing 
taxes or adding more regulations would cause harm to the 
American entrepreneur?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Without a doubt it would cause harm to the 
American entrepreneur. I made slight mention of this in my 
introduction about just how difficult compliance is. And then 
when you add state compliance, it is really a tenuous 
situation. Additional taxes erode the incentives for small 
business ownership in the first place. And so creating a tax 
policy that incentivizes business formation, incentivizes 
business growth, these are all things that not just affect the 
entrepreneur but affect the entire community and we have seen 
that play out. So I would absolutely agree with that statement.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Can you make that more personal? How has 
this affected your business itself?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Well, as an example, when operating Flags of 
Valor, when the tax policy changed during the last 
administration, we were able to use some of the additional tax 
benefit we had or additional income that we had to invest in 
our equipment. And so that single thing allowed us to go from 
being a largely handheld tool operator to being able to use 
truly high-tech laser and CNC equipment in a full commercial 
suite that was offset by the benefits we received. And now 
today, fast forward, that same organization is now employing a 
whole new team in technical manufacturing; right? So what does 
that mean for the employee? Well, now they are getting higher 
level skills, skills that are transferrable through additional 
industries, and it is allowing us to produce more things here 
in the United States that is very unique; right? I mean, Made 
in America still matters. And so anything that we can do to 
support that I think is going to be beneficial to our 
communities.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Your comment was that it provided you with 
income. They allowed you to keep your income is what that tax 
cut did. You got to keep the money that was yours that you made 
and be able to reinvest it. I thank you for that comment.
    You made mention of the jobs that you created. Can you tell 
me how you structure your hiring process to attract veterans 
just specifically? Or I assume you attract a lot of other 
folks, but I am sure you try to go after veterans in 
particular.
    Mr. SHAMESS. We do. We certain have and continue to do. But 
what is really unique about the veteran community compared to 
many others is there are certain bonds that are created in 
military service. There is an esprit de corps that exists that 
makes veterans want to be around other veterans. And so veteran 
entrepreneurship means veteran jobs. Veteran jobs is not quite 
the problem it was 10 years ago, 15 years ago when we were in 
the heat of the post-9/11 conflicts. Nonetheless, we still want 
to create opportunity for those men and women in uniform as 
they depart. And so the culture that exists inside a veteran-
run company is something that is very difficult to replicate 
outside of a veteran-run company. And it is a natural 
attraction for veterans that want to continue to be a part of 
that culture while changing their life and serving outside the 
uniform.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Ms. Sayles, you mentioned that there are 2 
million women vets. This morning I spoke to the Women's Small 
Business Coalition I guess it is, and all the ladies in there 
were very vociferous in some of their concerns. But it was 
great to be speaking with them. But there is a whole new subset 
when you are talking about women veterans. Do they have some 
unique issues that we need to be concerned about, or is being a 
veteran is being a veteran?
    Ms. SAYLES. Well, sir, yes. Being a women that served in 
the military, because it is such a small amount of us in 
general when you look at the broader base, there are just 
certain things that we are challenged with as a woman being 
surrounded by men all the time. So you have to gauge yourself 
up for that and continue to go through the course of serving in 
your uniform. But some of the challenges that come out of that 
leave the women in a different type of mindset when they return 
to civilian lifestyle. Some were to the point that I know many, 
way too many, that do not desire to go to the VA just because 
they do not like the idea of not being considered a veteran, 
you know, first of all. And then secondly, just some of the 
attention that they receive that they do not request. So they 
have learned at the VA hospitals throughout the country to make 
some adjustments for women that are coming that are women 
veterans to be serviced there. And yet, some of that same kind 
of information that they are receiving though actually affects 
their entire life. So yes, those are extra challenges that we 
have to deal with as women that served in the military.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you.
    Dr. Haynie, you alluded to some studies or some information 
that you were aware of. Prior to the pandemic versus after the 
pandemic, are you seeing more veteran-owned business startups 
or less?
    Mr. HAYNIE. So I think the best data for this actually 
comes out of the Kauffman Foundation. In the index, they have 
focused on startups for all Americans. And then they break that 
data out by different demographic markers. Veterans at the 
start of the pandemic it was a very, very steep and dramatic 
increase in the pool to self-employment and business ownership. 
What we are seeing now is I think a slight decline as a 
function of reopening of society and reopening of traditional 
jobs and careers. That said, the numbers are still high 
relative to other segments of American society.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. I thank you for that. And again, I thank 
each of you for your service to our country. Thank you very 
much.
    Madam Chair, I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentlelady from Georgia, Ms. 
Bourdeaux, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. BOURDEAUX. Thank you, Chairwoman Velazquez, for holding 
today's hearing.
    For the American service men and women, the transition to 
civilian life can be difficult, especially so if they struggle 
to find a purpose upon return. One estimate is that 53 percent 
of veterans do not know what career they want to pursue when 
they transition back to becoming civilians.
    Because of this, one of the community projects that I have 
secured funding for is an organization called Hire Heroes in my 
district and it would dedicate $720,000 to help veterans find 
gainful employment. However, through their service, veterans 
are unequipped with many of the skills that mark a successful 
entrepreneur, including high performance in stressful 
situations and natural leadership abilities. And as a professor 
of public policy who has taught many veterans coming out of 
service, I can testify that they are often the best students. 
They are very focused and very disciplined in their work. 
Having these veterans and understanding this experience, I am 
very, very interested in making sure that they make this 
transition appropriately and have access to the resources that 
they need if they want to pursue small businesses.
    So this leads me to my question. One of the things I have 
also found as I have met with small businesses around my 
community, they often do not know all the resources that are 
available to them. And some of that came up in some of the 
testimony.
    So starting with Dr. Haynie, we have all sorts of great 
resources available to people--VBOCs, SBDCs, WBCs, SCORE, among 
many others. These are resources of free, low-cost counseling 
and training for small businesses. How do we go about doing 
better outreach to letting small businesses, and particularly 
these veteran-owned small businesses know what resources are 
available to them?
    Mr. HAYNIE. Thank you very much for the question. And I 
think, as my fellow panelists alluded to, I fully agree that 
the number one, as a matter of fact, the data supports the 
number one challenge that folks express getting out of the 
military is not off the top employment or healthcare, et 
cetera. It is actually navigating the resources available to 
them. And it is not just what is available. It is also what 
they are eligible for. What they qualify for. There are so many 
qualifications and restrictions and limitations on what you can 
access as a function of combat veteran or not, post-9/11 
veteran or not. I think we have to do, and why I think a 
hearing like this is so important is we have to elevate the 
conversation related to veteran business ownership in the 
country in a way where those who are in a position to serve or 
serving now this community become networked in what I would 
describe as akin to a healthcare network. And that we sort of 
manage the coordination and the navigation of veteran-owned 
businesses through this network of resources that starts at the 
local community level, extends at the state level, and to 
federal resources primarily from the SBA.
    Ms. BOURDEAUX. This is a follow-up to that. I am curious 
about Syracuse University's institute and who you have 
partnered with in the community. I know you have a Community 
Navigator Pilot Program, something very important to my 
community as well, a diverse community with a lot of immigrant 
small businesses, as well as minority veteran businesses. And 
one of the things I have been encouraging the SBDC and other 
small business-serving institutions to do is to partner with 
unique community partners to get the word out. I was just 
curious about these kinds of partnerships and what you might 
have built in Syracuse.
    Mr. HAYNIE. Yes, ma'am. The partnerships are key to 
everything we do. As a matter of fact, the nonprofit that you 
mentioned, Hire Heroes, in your district is one of our 
partners. A program unrelated to veteran business ownership but 
that we run called Onward to Opportunity, which is a 
credentialing and certification program for those leaving 
military service. Our employment partner in that effort is your 
local nonprofit Hire Heroes.
    Ms. BOURDEAUX. That is great to hear. I think that is about 
all the questions.
    I just actually want to raise one more thing that is an 
interesting partnership that I have come across which is the 
Centers for Medicaid and Medicare Services, which does a lot of 
advertising around the Exchange which is health insurance, and 
that is also very important, health insurance for small 
businesses. I have been talking with them about doing better 
outreach through organizations like our Community Navigators, 
our SBDCs, some of these different small business organizations 
so that we could get out word about how people can purchase 
insurance on the Exchange and I found a lot of small businesses 
needed that help as I talked with them. And so I just one of 
many efforts to try to put together creative partnerships to 
serve.
    Thank you so much. I yield back the balance of my time.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady yields back.
    Now we recognize the Vice Ranking Member of the Committee, 
Mr. Williams, from Texas, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and Ranking 
Member Luetkemeyer, and all the witnesses today. I think it is 
fantastic that you are here and our country cannot thank our 
veterans enough for their extraordinary courage, patriotism, 
sacrifice. And I have the honor of representing Fort Hood in 
Texas. It is a great place. And when we hire veterans, 
employers do not need to teach them about discipline or work 
ethic. Veterans just need to be provided with an opportunity 
and they will succeed.
    I have been in business 51 years, small business owner, and 
one of the neat stories I have is in Texas we had severe 
flooding last year and I went by to thank the National Guard 
for being first on the scene. And I was shaking hands of some 
of our Members and I come to one young man and I shook his hand 
and I thanked him. And he looked at me and said, Congressman, 
my family is starving. He said, I have three children. We 
cannot eat. I said, What do you do? He said, Well, I work on 
Humvees. And I said, Can you fix them on the fly? He says, I 
can. Well, as it would be, I am an automobile dealer. I own car 
dealerships. So I said, if you can fix a Humvee on the fly, can 
you fix a Dodge pickup on a lift? And he said he could. And we 
hired him and he started out very little training. We started 
out at $12 per flat rate hour and he got up to $35 per flat 
rate hour and started his own business. So this is the kind of 
thing that can happen with veterans that are just really a 
little cut above. And I employ several hundred people in Texas, 
and a huge majority of my employees are veterans that have 
stayed with us. So that is a little story that just again 
reiterates how great our veteran workforce is and always can 
be.
    Mr. Shamess, good to see you again. Thanks for your story. 
In your testimony you stated that more government involvement 
tends to lead to more compliance and more spending. And if 
Democrats continue to push for massive tax cuts--that is all 
they talk about, let's raise taxes, raise taxes, and they push 
for increased government regulations which will harm main 
street businesses. They do. And American families. I see it 
every single day in my business. The federal government should 
not be overwhelming veteran entrepreneurs with excessive red 
tape.
    So can you, and you have touched on it, but this is 
important because this is what we talk about and this is what 
the debate is, but can you elaborate on what higher taxes--
higher taxes and more regulation burdens will impact your 
ability to plan as a small business owner because you are 
coming out of the greatest tax cuts we have ever had which 
created a lot of jobs and now you are having to play defense on 
possible tax increases and more government involvement. So how 
does that affect how you plan for the future?
    Mr. SHAMESS. That is a great question. And great to see you 
again as well. It is like you are operating on shifting sands 
is how it feels. And I will use an example from Flags of Valor 
just to kind of paint a picture of this.
    When you are dealing in a high inflation environment and 
all your raw materials are going up and you are a manufacturer. 
And your labor costs are going up which in some cases is a good 
thing because you are taking care of your people. And then you 
are paying payroll taxes. And then you are paying personal 
property taxes. And then you are paying your state licenses and 
fees that you have. You are taking that $1 of income and you 
are carving big chunks out of it, almost like with a sledge 
hammer you are carving that dollar up. By the time that dollar 
gets down to being a bottom line dollar in profit, you have 
lost so much of the power of that dollar that you earned from 
the very beginning. And now take that as a business owner and 
that same, whatever is left you are paying your federal taxes. 
You are paying your state income taxes. You are paying your 
personal property taxes. It goes on and on. By the time it is 
all done, you are looking at less than 50 cents on the dollar 
of profit. And inside the business you are looking at maybe a 
10 percent bottom line margin if you are lucky. And right now I 
can tell you, small businesses are not getting 10 percent 
bottom lines. And so you are just eroding all the incentive in 
the system for you to continue to grow and hire.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, tax cuts do work and hey need to be 
made permanent. And we are going to be fighting for that. And 
then you have Mr. Inflation running around which so sky high. 
So it is real problems.
    It is a great privilege, as I said, to work for Fort Hood 
and our veterans. And our veterans made great sacrifices to 
protect and defend this country. And it is our responsibility 
to ensure that they are equipped and pursue their business 
goals once they transition into civilian life. And earlier this 
year, Congress did pass the Veteran Entrepreneurship Training 
Act which helped codify the Boots to Business program. And 
also, I think we must assist in providing opportunities to 
build a career ahead of time, and at this time, significant 
changes in these brave individual lives.
    So real quick, can you tell us the major hurdles veterans 
face while trying to break into the private sector and start 
their own business? The challenge is to say I am going to be a 
business person. What is the biggest challenge?
    Mr. SHAMESS. I will be as fast as I can. When you take that 
oath of office, and I did it on my 18th birthday, it is not 
just that you are going to risk for your country. You basically 
put everything else off for that entire period of time. So 
there is no preparation whereas most people in the private 
sector, they are working in a company. They are getting 
exposure to an industry. They are learning an industry so they 
can start a business. In the military, you do not have that. 
And so you need that exposure. You need that transition program 
like we are talking about, bringing those resources together.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Time has expired. The gentleman 
yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentlelady from Pennsylvania, Ms. 
Houlahan, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. HOULAHAN. Thank you, Madam Chair. And thank you to 
everyone here for your testimony and for the conversation.
    I am an Air Force veteran myself, and I am an entrepreneur 
as well having built a variety of different businesses from 
scale to sale. I am very excited to participate in today's 
experience and to talk about the local veteran-owned businesses 
in my community which is just outside of Philadelphia, 
Pennsylvania.
    Last month, I had the opportunity to participate in a 
roundtable discussion with Secretary Mcdonough who visited my 
community and several veteran entrepreneurs as well at the 
Coatesville VA Center, which is also in my district. I was 
particularly struck by the story of Robin Gilmore, an Air Force 
veteran himself and a service-disabled veteran as well. He is a 
small business owner of a media production business. With his 
passion for producing video content, Robin established and grew 
his small business following his years of military service. And 
as his business grew, Robin was able to adapt the company's 
online presence but he needed technical assistance and 
expertise with regard to website design, optimization, and 
social media.
    So as with many small business nationwide, the COVID 
pandemic also brought him a number of opportunities and 
challenges, including a significant drop in his business. So 
Robin sought assistance and reached out to Kutztown University 
Small Business Development Center, which helped him to 
revitalize his website to attract customers, to build new 
clients, and to increase his appearance on all platforms. In 
short, with the help of the SBDC, Robin was able to take his 
business online and to the next level. So to this day, he 
continues to refer other local businesses and local owners to 
these valuable resources.
    Robin's story certainly demonstrates the effectiveness and 
importance of SBA's free and low-cost resource partners and 
entrepreneurial development resources, especially in times like 
these when a business owner may not have the tools or expertise 
in certain areas to pivot or to grow or to navigate through 
this complex environment.
    My question is for you, Dr. Haynie. With Robin's story in 
mind, what more do you think that the Small Business 
Administration can do to increase awareness of the SBA resource 
partners and entrepreneurial development resources amongst 
particularly our veteran community? And what else can we do 
here in Congress to be able to increase attention to these 
services?
    Mr. HAYNIE. Well, thank you for the question. As someone 
born in Doylestown, Pennsylvania, I appreciate the first 
question coming from you to me.
    You know, I think one of the things is we have to continue 
to focus on expanding the scope and scale of those services. 
You know, the service you heard from Ms. Sayles about the fact 
that there was not a VBOC in the State of Maryland until just 
recently is a good example of what I think is missed 
opportunity. In aligning those resources in a way where there 
is a look at sort of veteran population density, that is easily 
done and understood. But also, you know, one of the things that 
we learned from COVID is that our use of technology expanded 
access to services to veterans that live in rural communities, 
veterans that live, you know, so balancing that focus of hard 
physical infrastructure with an expanded opportunity to bring 
virtual services and resources to veterans in rural communities 
and other places where they cannot access that physical 
infrastructure I think would be important.
    Ms. HOULAHAN. That is a fascinating lesson learned from a 
really bad situation with COVID is that I think all of us had 
to very rapidly become much more technologically adept and kind 
of comfortable using technologies.
    Mr. HAYNIE. That is correct.
    Ms. HOULAHAN. And that is something worth pursuing.
    With what remains of my time, my question is for Mr. 
Peacock. I am also really interested in exploring how the SBA 
can increase assistance for not just women veterans but also 
for female military spouses as well. I grew up in a military 
family and my mom was possibly the most talented of all of us 
and really struggled with her opportunity to grow and flourish 
as a small business owner and operator as we moved around. 
Would you be able to help us understand what are the needs for 
women veterans and female military spouses and how can we help 
them in adapting their businesses?
    Mr. PEACOCK. I think a greater emphasis on attending Boots 
to Business with their veteran partner would help. Every 
business is going to be a family-owned business. And maybe you 
have traveled around with your spouse all over the country, all 
over the world, and after 20-something years that family is 
going to retire. And you kind of think that you are going to 
maybe buy an RV, see the 50 states, whatever, but he wants to 
open up a motorcycle repair shop in the garage. You have got to 
have a come-together meeting to make the business work. So if 
the veteran is starting a business or the spouse is starting a 
business, one of them is going to be the support personnel for 
the other. So having the spouses attend the Boots to Business 
program will be a great way to orient them to business 
ownership, a business that will support the veteran or for 
their own business as the spouse. I think that would be a great 
way to introduce them, get them tied in.
    Ms. HOULAHAN. My time has expired. I appreciate your time, 
everyone, and I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady yields back.
    Now we recognize the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on 
Economic Growth, Tax, and Capital Access, Mr. Meuser, from 
Pennsylvania.
    Mr. MEUSER. Thank you very much, Madam Chairwoman. And 
thank you all. You are really a great group of witnesses. And 
thanks for being here. And certainly, thank you for your 
service and for your entrepreneurialism and being job creators.
    Joe Shamess, Mr. Shamess, we met last November as well, so 
certainly very good to see you again. And I really appreciate 
what you had to say about putting, entering into service, into 
the military, putting everything else on hold. And that is why 
it is so important once you come back into civilian life, 
having some support in transitioning for business. That just 
makes a tremendous amount of sense. So this hearing is 
important and we want to learn as much as we can to improve 
such support services.
    So Mr. Shamess, let me start with you. As a veteran 
entrepreneur, what do you find, what has been the most helpful 
resource for veterans for the transition? Which department, 
which set of resources has been in your view most helpful to 
you and maybe most helpful to other veteran entrepreneurs that 
you speak with?
    Mr. SHAMESS. I would imagine it would be true for everyone 
on this panel but it has been mentors or network. It has been 
the people. And so having access to people. The resources in 
terms of access to capital or just general information is 
really important, too. But having someone that you can actually 
talk to is probably the single-most important thing.
    Mr. MEUSER. Interesting. And is there a formal network or 
is it----
    Mr. SHAMESS. Well, most people end up building it 
themselves but there are programs, like SCORE, as Ms. Sayles 
mentioned.
    Mr. MEUSER. Right.
    Mr. SHAMESS. There are programs out there. It is the 
communication. It is not that the resource is absent per se; it 
is that is misunderstood or it is not properly communicated to 
the person that needs it.
    Mr. MEUSER. Okay. So that could probably be improved, the 
level of outreach and access to information. Access to capital, 
on a scale of one to 10, how much of a challenge is that?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Statistically, it is listed as number one. And 
I would agree with that for most people. I think if you are 
pursuing a 7(a) and they are going to collateralize everything 
that you have, being SBA backed, it helps but most people do 
not have much. So you are going to collateralize everything 
that you have and then you can get your SBA 7(a). Having access 
to capital through something like H.R. 4991, the Post 9/11 
Veteran Business Acceleration Act, right, so getting your Post-
9/11 GI Bill benefit to use towards business ownership, I mean, 
that would be a rocket ship. That would be absolute explosive 
capital for a lot of small businesses.
    Mr. MEUSER. Okay. Well, we will definitely look to pursue 
that.
    For all the witnesses, and Ms. Sayles, you mentioned your 
list of three including expanding access or support for women 
entrepreneurs, veteran entrepreneurs, as well as the GI Bill, 
making that available for small business. Do you have a 
suggestion in that regard?
    Ms. SAYLES. Yes, sir. Since we have earned those funds to 
come to us, it would be awesome, like for example, I was an 
entrepreneur before I joined the Marine Corps. So when I got 
out I was not so much focused on the college degree. And 
nowadays, let's be honest, many are staying 25-30 years so they 
have their master's degree when they get out. So what are they 
going after with a GI Bill now at 40 years of age? But being 
able to take those funds and now distribute them between 
starting a business with capital, as well as using some of 
those funds for a place like Syracuse, for example, to be able 
to get the education that they need. Because as much as we get 
great leadership skills and resilience and tenacity, we are 
never taught how to negotiate. So it is things like that that 
are simple for a lot of people that are civilians that as a 
military person that we need to be educated on. And so real 
core training would be ideal.
    Mr. MEUSER. All right. Great. And I know, Dr. Haynie, you 
brought that up as well, more support services for women 
entrepreneurs. So I am glad to hear that.
    Just on more of the aggregate issues facing small 
businesses, veteran and nonveteran, dealing with the high cost 
of gasoline, dealing with the rise of inflation, dealing with 
the prospect of higher taxes, you know, all of that, supply 
chain disruptions. You know, I talk with small businesses. I 
have been a small business person for over 20 years as well. It 
is very, very challenging in general. Does anybody just want to 
comment on some of the challenges? We spoke about taxes at bit. 
And Mr. Shamess, you spoke about your level of margin; right? 
Two or 3 percentage points makes a big difference. I mean, that 
in cases is 30 to 40 percent. If you are working off of 8 
percent net income, right, 3 or 4 percent goes right from the 
bottom line.
    Mr. SHAMESS. Yes. It will wipe out small businesses. 
Certain small businesses entirely because they are reluctant to 
pass the increased costs on to the consumer. And especially if 
you are in a consumer discretionary industry, the last thing 
you want to do is raise your price. And so you wait as long as 
you can and then finally you have to. And if you are struggling 
that much, the consumer is probably also struggling because of 
all the same things you just mentioned. And it will lead to 
disruption of a lot of small businesses.
    Mr. MEUSER. Thank you all very much. And very much, thank 
you for your service.
    I yield back, Madam Chair.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentlelady from Kansas, Ms. Davids, 
Chairwoman of the Subcommittee on Economic Growth, Tax, and 
Capital Access, for 5 minutes.
    Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you. Thank you, Chairwoman Velazquez, and 
thank you to both you and to our Ranking Member for holding 
this very important hearing today.
    The transition from military service to civilian life can 
be challenging in many ways for veterans and their families. 
And then especially when it comes to finding a new career path. 
And we have heard that over and over again today. I tis 
actually one of the reasons why in the last Congress I 
introduced the SERVE Act, which was a bipartisan effort that 
passed the House to support entrepreneurship endeavors for 
veterans and also reservists. And this bill would require the 
SBA to develop a plan for outreach and promotion of the variety 
of programs available to veterans, reservist, and their 
spouses. It also requires a report on the ability of our 
veteran small business owners to access credit which is one of 
the bigger challenges for any entrepreneur starting and 
maintaining a business. The 2021 National Survey of Military 
Affiliated Entrepreneurs found that 49 percent of the 
respondents to that survey had a difficult time acquiring 
initial capital to start their businesses and that 41 percent 
continued to find financing to be a challenge. I would love Dr. 
Haynie for, you know, you to explain or tell us why might 
veterans and military-affiliated entrepreneurs have such a 
difficult time accessing capital?
    Mr. HAYNIE. So it is a great question. It is a very complex 
question to answer because there are many factors that play 
into it. I think some of my fellow panelists have addressed 
some of this. You know, this idea of putting everything on hold 
when you raise your hand and volunteer for service, that means 
that you are not building. You know, my service, I was an Air 
Force acquisition contracting officer. When I would look at who 
I was going to award a contract to, the first thing I would 
look at is past performance and past history. Without past 
performance, past history, it becomes difficult then. It is a 
catch-22. You cannot build that history, build that experience 
until you get that work. And so I think part of it is you are 
starting from scratch, to answer the question. I think part of 
it is you also, and this is why I think it is so important the 
work this Committee does and related for supportive services 
and resources, starting a business is not the same thing as 
transitioning to a traditional job where if you do not like 
that job you quit that job and find a different one. Because of 
what small business ownership is, you know, and particularly as 
it relates to capital, often it is your own capital. The 
resources that you have and that you are collateralizing, if 
you will, to make this business work. You have to have the 
supportive services and resources like Boots to Business and 
other programs available to those service Members such that 
they are prepared for this experience to the extent to which 
that is possible.
    So I think all of that plays into, you know, some of these 
challenges. But not even the tip of the iceberg in terms of the 
whole story.
    Ms. DAVIDS. Yeah, thank you.
    And then Ms. Sayles, I would love to hear you kind of 
follow up maybe on some of the challenges that you faced when 
accessing capital as an entrepreneur. But also, there is 
another piece to this which I kind of talked about earlier with 
the SERVE Act. I am curious whether or not you were aware of 
the programs like Boots to Business or the Entrepreneurial 
Development Programs. Like, how early were you aware of those 
and maybe what do you think we can do better on that?
    Ms. SAYLES. I am glad I do not look my age. But actually, 
when I got out, TAP did not exist and Boots to Business did not 
exist. I had to go to the newspaper and find a job. Today, you 
have the access to the Internet and that is very much so a 
great way of educating all of us on getting information but it 
is still such a lack of information that is shared within the 
veteran community as a whole.
    And so when it comes to those programs, I found myself 
learning about them once I became diligent about becoming a 
veteran entrepreneur in government contracting. Then the door 
swung open with the SBA SCORE mentor telling me about 
everything.
    But when it comes to capital--to address that, even if you 
have a decent credit score, and I got the being the minority, I 
got the being a woman, and then I'm also a service-disabled 
veteran. I hit all three of those categories. And it is not 
that you may not be able to get lending, but it is the amount 
of money they are going to charge me to obtain it. So, the 
margin as he did so well in breaking down how you take that 
dollar and the different chunks that come out of it, and so 
there is just a lot of lenders that are taking advantage of the 
fact of you being a new business. And they come up with all 
these wonderful alternative ways to give you money but it is 
just that you pay a very, very high price for them.
    Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you. And I think a lot of folks recognize 
that that service can sometimes be a huge barrier to growing 
and maintaining your business as you look at your capital 
spent.
    All right. Well, thank you all so much. I appreciate your 
service to our country, and of course, the entrepreneurial 
spirit that you are showing up with. Thank you all. I yield 
back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Time has expired.
    Now we recognize the gentleman from New York, Mr. 
Garbarino, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. GARBARINO. Thank you, Chairwoman. Thank you to the 
Ranking Member for holding this hearing.
    I first want to start with Mr. Joe Shamess. Your testimony 
mentions multiple resources for veteran entrepreneurs. As a 
Member of the veteran entrepreneur community, can you share 
with us what you believe is the most helpful resource for 
veterans looking to transition from service to starting a 
business? And can you also address, you know, and this is 
something I heard from my Veterans Council from veterans 
returning home that the ability and the knowledge and the 
access for veterans to the actual programs and whether or not 
you think there is easy access to them.
    Mr. SHAMESS. Sure. I briefly mentioned this earlier about 
the network. And when you put everything on hold and you 
compare that, let's just say you do a 4- or 6-year enlistment 
or 5- to 10-years as an officer, whatever you're doing. Your 
counterpart in the private sector has 5 years, 10 years of 
building the network in the industry that they are interested 
in. Or maybe it is a sister industry. But the point where they 
get to launch that business, they are well equipped. They may 
even be well capitalized. They have all of these assets 
available to them. And number one is people. And so using the 
SCORE as an example, having access to mentors, that is one 
channel. But it is not necessary enough. And so bringing all 
those resources together in a way that is digestible, 
understandable, that can be communicated to the veteran 
community at the right time, or earlier even possibly, would be 
an optimal 1:19:13xxx solution.
    Mr. GARBARINO. So I am just doing a better job at reaching 
out. What is there right now that the veterans can go to when 
they come home and they want to transition into a small 
business? Do they go to their local small business development 
center? I mean, do they go to their local SBA region director? 
I mean, or are there programs, does the SBA reach out through 
the VA? Through the VA or through the American Legions or the 
VFW Posts? Are any of those options out there and do you think 
that would work or not?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Well, what you are describing is exactly the 
problem. Is that there are all of these pieces of information 
held by specific entities and they are all essentially good 
things. But the inability to get all of that in one place that 
is usable by the entrepreneur is the problem. There are a ton 
of resources. It is not about necessarily creating additional 
resources. It is about synthesizing them in a way that is 
digestible and understandable that the veteran can have access 
to them.
    Mr. GARBARINO. I appreciate that. That is exactly what I 
heard when I held my meeting with my Veterans Business Council 
or my Veterans Council and we talked about the SBA. They said 
there might be information out there and programs out there but 
we do not know about them and it is very hard for us to find 
out about them. So, I think that is something that we need to 
work on with the SBA and Congress.
    Just maybe for the panel, where should Members of Congress 
focus? We are hearing a lot of small business leaders right now 
are coming to us and, you know, some of them are saying it is 
hard to get capital. Some of them are saying it is hard to get 
workers who are trained or have the education to do what they 
need them to do. Where should be focusing most, especially when 
dealing with veterans? And anybody can jump on this. Is it 
access, more access to capital? Is it more access to education 
or training? What should we do? Anybody can jump in.
    Mr. HAYNIE. So I will take a swing at this. So I think the 
access to education and training for me is a necessary 
condition. It is not sufficient. It is a necessary condition.
    I will bring up one thing that I think the Committee could 
focus on and potentially start asking some questions. We 
mentioned the unemployment crisis of the 2009, 2010, 2011, 
2012, you know, was brought up earlier in the hearing. 
Unemployment related to veterans. And the private sector did 
some remarkable work stepping up and stepping forward and 
creating veteran employment programs in this country, really 
not seen since World War II. The next horizon, if you will, is 
to open up the supply chains of private sector companies, 
particularly Fortune 500 companies to veteran-owned businesses. 
I think we often look at government and government contracting 
as the objective for veteran-owned businesses. But the reality 
is if you look at the supply chains of this country's largest 
private sector businesses, they represent a remarkable 
opportunity to grow and catalyze veteran-owned business in this 
country. And I think that could be a unique opportunity to 
begin engaging with the private sector on how it is that they 
can be part of this effort to grow this community.
    Mr. GARBARINO. Great answer. I appreciate that. And I know 
I am running out of time. I have ran out of time. So I yield 
back. But thank you, Doctor, for that answer.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Crow, 
Chairman of the Subcommittee on Innovation, Entrepreneurship, 
and Workforce Development for 5 minutes.
    Mr. CROW. Thank you, Chairwoman.
    For Ms. Sayles, I just wanted to get a sense from you. I am 
a fellow veteran as well. I just wanted to get a sense from you 
as to how we can better prepare our service men and women while 
they are still in uniform for that next step in their career.
    So, for so long, and I know Mr. Shamess probably shares 
this view, too, the military says, well, our job is not to 
train people for when they leave the service. But you know, not 
every private becomes a general. This is not our system. And if 
we send people back out, maybe we should set them up for 
success. So how can the military better do that? I know the 
United Association has this Veterans in Piping program where it 
is an 18-week program to train them to have skills when they 
come out. Are there any other examples or ideas that you might 
have?
    Ms. SAYLES. The only thing I will definitely address would 
be knowing that more recent veterans, and they talk about the 
TAP program. But in the end, it added no value to them. Many of 
them do not feel like they really received anything that helped 
them with the transition. Because the transition is very broad. 
It is just basic communications. You know, when do you stop 
saying I am going to the head? So there is a lot of things that 
are part of that transition that are very, very real to the 
veteran community. So I would really go for the fact of 
lengthening the amount of time of the TAP program because if 
they have made a decision to get out, then offering them the 
opportunity to assist them in that transition would be hugely 
beneficial with just the basics of communication.
    Mr. CROW. That is a great point. I am an infantry officer 
so we called it a latrine, not a head. But, you know. I get 
your point.
    Mr. Shamess, a fellow Afghan veteran, you are in the 
capital business; right? Private equity or hedge fund, is 
that----
    Mr. SHAMESS. Venture.
    Mr. CROW. Yeah. So, venture capital. So you invest in 
businesses to help promote them; is that accurate?
    Mr. SHAMESS. That is correct.
    Mr. CROW. Okay. So, the businesses that you invest in, so 
you are not, you do not hire the employees directly. You are 
not hiring machinists directly; right? Other people are doing 
that?
    Mr. SHAMESS. I have done that but not now.
    Mr. CROW. Yeah, not now. And you are not shipping product. 
It is the other companies that are doing that; right?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Correct.
    Mr. CROW. And you are not manufacturing things. It is the 
businesses you are investing in; right? So do they use roads? 
Yes or no?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Absolutely.
    Mr. CROW. Do they use bridges?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Sure.
    Mr. CROW. Do they use broadband?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Absolutely.
    Mr. CROW. Do they have to hire people out of apprenticeship 
programs?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Yes.
    Mr. CROW. How are those things paid for?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Are you saying this from a tax----
    Mr. CROW. Yeah, where do roads and bridges and broadband 
and apprenticeship programs and K through 12 schools, how do 
those things get paid for?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Well, naturally with taxes.
    Mr. CROW. Yeah. So, I mean, I appreciate your point that 
nobody likes high taxes. I do not like high taxes. But there is 
more that goes into running a business than just the level of 
the taxes.
    I talk to manufacturers all the time in my community and 
they say workforce is actually the biggest thing. They cannot 
find qualified employees because our education system is 
defunct, because our apprenticeship programs do not work. Our 
bridges are falling apart. We do not have broadband.
    So, we need to have a more nuanced conversation than just 
taxes are bad or taxes are too high. My point is, let's have an 
actual conversation with my colleagues about what is the right 
level of tax to provide the service that we need for a robust, 
competitive environment that can help your businesses succeed? 
So I am willing to have that conversation.
    Thank you, Chairwoman. I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Stauber, 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. STAUBER. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Dr. Haynie, real quick. You had made a comment just moments 
ago about supply chain. Would the supply chain issue be reduced 
if it was manufactured and made in the United States, a 
product?
    Mr. HAYNIE. So I am clearly a big supporter of bringing 
manufacturing back to the United States. I believe that, you 
know, what I was referring to is how can veteran-owned 
businesses play a role in bringing that manufacturing back in 
part. But also, how can our U.S.-based large companies think 
beyond their traditional process to open their supply chains up 
so that veteran-owned businesses can be suppliers to those 
companies.
    Mr. STAUBER. But if it was made in the United States and 
manufactured in the United States, would the supply chain issue 
be reduced?
    Mr. HAYNIE. I absolutely believe so. Yes.
    Mr. STAUBER. Thank you.
    And to the veterans, thank you for your service. I will be 
very blunt. I get to spend the rest of my life with what I 
think is the greatest veteran, my wife of 25 years, an Iraq War 
veteran. So thank you for your service, and that comes from the 
bottom of my heart.
    Mr. Shamess, I have a question for you. First off, it is 
great to see you again. We saw you last November with the Flags 
of Valor and what have you. So I appreciate what you do.
    A couple things. How have the gas prices impacted your 
business and inflation?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Good question. And thank you for the question. 
Regarding that in relation to what was also just asked, I do 
also have Flags of Valor, which is an operating business that 
is making stuff in the United States for the record. And so 
inflation is terrible. It is crushing. It is high. And 
everything, it is not just hiring the workforce. It is the 
gasoline. It is the wood cost. It is adhesives. It is 
everything. And then, of course, the cost for us to get a 
product to the end user is also higher. And so at every turn 
the prices are going up.
    Mr. STAUBER. What would be the additional cost to the end 
user from let's say 2 years ago?
    Mr. SHAMESS. If we were to have raised prices in a linear 
way with inflation, we would be needing to raise prices 
probably by about 20 percent at this point, which is not 
reflected in the actual inflation numbers. But if we were to 
take in all the total cost increases.
    Mr. STAUBER. Right.
    The Biden administration, these are their own numbers. The 
Biden administration has added in the year 2021, an additional 
$201 billion of regulatory costs and 130 million in compliance 
hours on small businesses. How does red tape hold your business 
back from achieving even greater success?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Well, one, it is time. And this was a big 
issue in the early stages of COVID pandemic was the amount of 
compliance that went into the Paycheck Protection Program, for 
instance. Some people took advantage of that, unfortunately. 
But for the people that were trying to do it the right way, and 
it improved over time, but it was very confusing. And so if you 
are talking about just filing your monthly sales and use tax to 
filing your 941s for payroll, to even just following local code 
if you are a restaurant or whatever you are. It took a 
tremendous amount of time. And to the entrepreneur, they have 
both financial capital and they have time capital. And those 
both have a value associated with them.
    Mr. STAUBER. Right.
    Mr. SHAMESS. And so when you are sucking that much time 
capital out of their ability to do their job, it is a huge 
cost.
    Mr. STAUBER. So with the regulatory costs and the burdens 
put on small businesses across this country, would you say that 
you would be best keeping that money in your own pocket to 
invest in your employees and technology and capital?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Without question because it is an also risk 
related. And so if your incentives continue to go down, your 
appetite for risk will also go down proportionately. Or maybe 
even more so. And so to invest the extra dollar in your 
company, it becomes less and less certain. And therefore, less 
and less likely.
    Mr. STAUBER. I think as a small business owner of 31 years 
myself, certainty is what we need. Certainty. And I think that 
is important.
    Again, thanks all of you for your testimony. And as the 
veterans you are, thank you again for your service from the 
bottom of my heart.
    And I yield back, Madam Chair.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Kim, 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. KIM. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair, for recognizing 
me. Thank you for the panel here to talk through this important 
issue. We certainly have been better focused in New Jersey on 
what we can do for our veterans there. And as someone who is on 
this Small Business Committee, this has been a big part of what 
we focused on.
    The one angle that we tried to go at this from is, you 
know, we were looking at this infrastructure, the Investment 
and Jobs Act signed into law, all these different opportunities 
that are going to be available to the buildup across our 
country. I introduced some bipartisan legislation called the 
Bill to Veterans Business Act which would set a 3 percent 
veteran-owned small business contracting goal for federal 
transportation projects, including construction, manufacturing, 
and professional services like architecture and engineering.
    This falls under the Department of Transportation, not SBA. 
But I wanted to ask this panel here. What can SBA and other 
federal partners do better to support veteran-owned businesses 
that want to complete for federal contracts? I feel like this 
is an opportunity that we have no been able to dive in as deep 
on and wanted to get your perspective.
    Mr. HAYNIE. Again, I will take a first swing at that one. 
You know, I think the set aside incentives that exist already 
now at DoD and VA and at many state levels, I think those are 
important opportunity creators. I also know from my past 
experience as a DoD procurement official that one of the 
challenges is many small business and veteran-owned businesses 
as well face real barriers to, it is why for many years DoD 
never met its set aside goal because they could not find 
qualified, in their definition, qualified veteran-owned 
businesses to engage in procurement actions. The opportunity to 
get this right, you have to also engage prime contractors. You 
know, you have to extend those set aside goals as an obligation 
to the large prime contractors and create an apprenticeship 
kind of relationship between small and growing ventures and 
those large prime contractors so that there is an opportunity 
to sort of cultivate and nurture these small businesses as they 
begin to take on federal contracts. Because if not done well, 
you actually could do more harm to those small businesses than 
opportunity creating. That is my view.
    Ms. SAYLES. May I add something, please? The VA is now 
releasing the verification for service-disabled, veteran-owned 
small businesses is going over to the SBA. So ensuring that all 
federal government agencies now adhere more to the law of that 
whereas at the VA they tend to have 20 to 25 percent of their 
dollars spent with service-disabled veterans. However, they 
have been able to not meet the women requirement at 5 percent. 
So it clearly shows that they are not awarding as much or 
looking more into the women service-disabled veterans as far as 
even at the VA. But the value of now going across the SBA is 
going to be great because now every agency should be adhering 
to the law of the new rules coming out of SBA for the veterans.
    Mr. KIM. Yeah. No. Thank you for that.
    Ms. SAYLES. And also, we should increase it to 5 percent.
    Mr. KIM. Sure.
    One thing I wanted to kind of connect the dots on here is, 
you know, a lot of how we have been trying to get small 
businesses to understand some of these opportunities, you know, 
has been about some of these different organizations. You know, 
for instance, the U.S. Coalition of State Veteran Chambers of 
Commerce has Members in 20 different states, including New 
Jersey. We have been able to work with this group on the ground 
in New Jersey to help a lot of these veteran-owned businesses 
understand some of these different opportunities available.
    So I guess I just wanted to end on asking, you know, do any 
of your organizations partner with the state veteran chambers? 
And how can they better work with you to be able to maximize 
their opportunities here?
    Mr. HAYNIE. So I think, sir, the short answer is yes. You 
know, as the saying goes, business is local. And one of the 
things that we are constantly advising veterans that go through 
our business ownership programs is to connect locally. Make 
connections with local Chambers of Commerce, state level 
Chambers of Commerce, particularly as it relates to entities 
that have been created around underserved Communities, the 
Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, for example.
    So I think, you know, one of the themes that has come 
across I think this panel is the importance of networks. And we 
drive that home at every opportunity. And the extent to which 
local networks can be cultivated is extremely important.
    Mr. KIM. Thank you. I will yield back to the Chair.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. the gentleman yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr. 
Fitzgerald, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. FITZGERALD. Thank you very much for being here. I am 
over here in the corner if you can see me over here.
    I spent 27 years doing ADT and Army Reserves and National 
Guard. Retired as a lieutenant colonel. And I think this kind 
of today is typical for the way things are oftentimes framed up 
which is somebody enlists, they do their first 4 years, 6 
years, whatever it might be. And then if they for some reason 
want to transition out of the military they kind of figure out, 
okay, what am I going to do now? And can I find a job that is 
related to the MOS that I had
    During my time. I will just say during my time in the Army. 
But what has not been discussed, which I had a ton of contact 
on over my years in both the Guard and Reserve was that many of 
these active duty soldiers transition into the Guard or 
Reserve. And along with that, obviously, it is kind of the 
problem is right before you and that is they also have a 
civilian job; right? So they are doing their 2 weeks of AT 
every year and they are doing their regular drills. And during 
that period of time, a lot of people are either going to tech 
college or some of them are in a 4-year institution and 
ultimately end up in ROTC or some other avenue.
    Has there been any study or any kind of 30,000 foot lock 
on, you know, it is like people solve this problem on a daily 
basis. What am I going to do in the civilian world? And they 
use the Guard and Reserve a transition piece for them sometimes 
because they do not want to leave the military. They love being 
in the military. Or, you know, it is another way to supplement 
their income while they are out there doing something like 
this.
    So I am not sure, Mr. Shamess, do you want to, or anybody 
that might have some experience with that Guard and Reserve 
piece? Because I think it is kind of something right before us. 
And I do not know that it is really being explored or analyzed 
at all.
    Mr. SHAMESS. No, that is a great question. I would be happy 
to answer it.
    Mr. PEACOCK. I can answer that one. Okay. Go ahead. I had 
something I wanted to say but please go ahead.
    Mr. SHAMESS. So the Guard and Reserve I think is a great 
transition point. In fact, I have been in the Guard for 8 years 
and 11 years on active. And so I absolutely appreciate the 
opportunities that the National Guard, the Air National Guard 
in my case present. And in some states there are great 
partnerships that exist between the Guard and the private 
sector.
    So, for example, in the State of West Virginia, if you join 
the Guard, they will pay for you to go to college outside of 
your normal GI Bill benefits you may earn if you attend school 
in state. And then that creates opportunities for private 
companies to work with the Guard and the State to basically 
create a funnel, a hiring funnel, which is a really powerful 
thing if it is properly developed.
    And the other thing I would consider, and I have been a 
skill bridge partner in various companies, where we have 
created skill bridge opportunities for military personnel in 
their last 6 months of service to come work inside the company. 
It is a great thing. And I do not know the answer to this, if 
it is allowed to be used for entrepreneurship. And if it is 
not, that would be an interesting suggestion to possibly look 
at where can you use a skill bridge program for you to spend 6 
months with a partner, with a mentor working to develop your 
business, especially if you have built-in access to capital 
associated with that.
    Mr. FITZGERALD. Yeah, I mean, other than combat arms, I 
mean, there are so many other MOS in the Army that it is a very 
direct and easy transition. I mean, if you are a mechanic in 
the Army, there is a good chance you could open up your own 
garage in the civilian side and also be an active Member of the 
Guard or Reserve. So, and I watched this happen. I mean, there 
are all kinds of Members that did this on a regular basis, so.
    Any other comments on that point?
    Mr. PEACOCK. I can say that the EIDL loan, the Economic 
Injury Disaster Loan was originally set up for Guard and 
Reservists who deployed. They own a business and they are 
called out to deploy. They can get the EIDL loan as a bridge 
loan. It was used during COVID because it was already in 
existence. So if you have a business and you are called up to 
active duty, you can get an EIDL loan, which is like a bridge 
loan to cover you until the time you get back, low interest 
rate, and it is a good program for those business owners who 
are in the Guard and Reserve. So that is something as far as 
access to capital that is available now. Thank you.
    Mr. FITZGERALD. Yeah, just in the couple seconds I have 
left, the other thing is just, you know, a lot of my experience 
was in training divisions or are techs themselves. So 
oftentimes, you know, the focus on that is how do you create an 
Army trainer, and then how does that trainer train troops? So 
there is this transition where it is really you are creating a 
classroom environment. And it is another place I think where we 
kind of miss the boat in that all that experience is just kind 
of, you know, as soon as a person leaves the military it is 
just gone. And it has always been frustrating to me to kind of 
see people that are just very good at that and suddenly they do 
not qualify kind of on the civilian side. It is another place I 
hope there is emphasis and I hope there is a place where we can 
find a way of utilizing those skills because it is unfortunate 
when they are just kind of gone overnight, so.
    Thank yo for being here today. I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Carter, 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. CARTER. Madam Chair, thank you very much. And let me 
thank you all for your incredible service. We can never say 
thank you enough for the sacrifices that you make for our 
country, and the least we can do is to create a smooth and 
seamless path for you to enter into the world of 
entrepreneurism.
    I happen to be the proud husband of a wife who is a career 
general officer in the United States Army with multiple tours 
of duty to Afghanistan and Iraq. So I know the pressure of a 
family left behind when their spouse goes to war or to service. 
So hats off to you.
    Ms. Sayles, the issue that we hear often with veterans of 
small businesses period is access to capital. Obviously, you 
overcame that. Would you mind sharing how and what 
recommendations you would give to service Members who are 
looking to perhaps enter the world of business?
    Ms. SAYLES. Earlier someone brought up the transition. 
Right? So TAP going for a longer period of time could be a very 
good area to start training them about the importance of having 
good credit. Because, again, that is kind of the information 
you do not learn while you are serving. And they do have a lot 
of, of course, companies right outside the gate that like to 
charge you a ridiculous amount of money to purchase anything 
while you are actually in uniform. So you do not get trained up 
in that area.
    And then secondary to that would be even with having good 
credit, the options of not having to pay more, much more than 
you should to receive that credit in order to start your 
business and have the capital I think is a big problem. And I 
brought that up earlier in my testimony. The SBA should really 
consider even more options of working with the existing lenders 
that are out there, the larger banks, the alternatives, 
whomever, but just kind of lead the way of actually 
establishing abilities for people to get access to capital 
where it does not cost them a lot of money in interest and 
fees.
    Mr. CARTER. What about even maybe a little bit of leniency 
on credit scores for service people?
    Ms. SAYLES. I would actually support that thought, sir, as 
well because, again, we were not taught when we were serving in 
the military about certain aspects. Finance is one of the 
areas.
    Mr. CARTER. Or even the ability to manage affairs when 
perhaps going abroad or serving. Many times as I think Mr. 
Shamess indicated, did you indicate that you took your oath of 
office at 18?
    Mr. SHAMESS. I did.
    Mr. CARTER. So, you know, a very young man relatively to 
begin and so some of those things are a matter of the ball 
comes really fast. And again, in our effort to provide as much 
resource and as much leniency and as much appreciation for your 
incredible service, I think that is one of those things that we 
should look at through the various committees of the Congress. 
Thank you very much.
    And one question for Mr. Shamess. The training you received 
through Boots to Business Program obviously prepared you. Can 
you share a little bit more? And I was late so this has already 
been asked. I will add a second part to that. Could you share a 
little bit about that experience and what advice would you give 
to young service people--young or old service people that are 
looking to access resources like Boots to Business or others?
    Mr. SHAMESS. So I was not a consumer of the Boots to 
Business program. But I would encourage all of them to work 
within basically everything we are describing today to find 
these resources. And hopefully, they will be provided in a more 
seamless way to them in the future. And I would encourage them 
to also rely on their military training because there are some 
very unique skills that come from military service. And I would 
tell them to absolutely not discount those as they embark on 
their entrepreneurial journey.
    Mr. CARTER. So as my times winds down I will ask a silver 
bullet question. You are sitting here before this Committee and 
if each of you had one request that could be honored from this 
Committee or any other Committee of the U.S. Congress that 
would make your business experience smoother, more accessible, 
more profitable, what would that be?
    Ms. SAYLES. Access to capital, sir. Because as a woman that 
has a business in government contracting and as an 8(a) firm, I 
am unable to just say I can take on any contract from the 
relationships I have built with no lack in trust within the 
federal government. Because if I do not have the capital to 
support good months of paying those salaries to those 
individuals, I can be challenged with being successful with it.
    Mr. CARTER. Okay. Mr. Shamess?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Make it easier on us from a compliance 
standpoint. Stop changing rules. Allow us to operate and enjoy 
the benefits but also struggle on our own to be entrepreneurs.
    Mr. CARTER. Dr. Haynie?
    Mr. HAYNIE. Create the ecosystem. You know, back to the 
navigation challenge. How is it that we put in place and 
sustain a network of resources on behalf of veterans such that 
when they make that transition they understand what resources 
are available, not just initially but at various stages of 
business venture creation and growth.
    Mr. CARTER. My time has expired. Thank you all very much. I 
greatly appreciate it.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Time has expired.
    The gentlelady from New York, Ms. Tenney, is recognized for 
5 minutes.
    Ms. TENNEY. Thank you, Madam Chairman. I appreciate this. 
Thank you so much to you for coming here and giving us some 
insight. And I obviously thank you for your service. I get a 
lot of unsolicited advice from my son who just left active duty 
in the Marines and is now a Reserve officer about just the 
transition period. How to help and mentor young service 
Members. And you have all sort of touched on access to capital 
as being one of the biggest issues. And one of the things I see 
in the military and as a small business employer as well, and 
you touched on it a little bit, Mr. Shamess, is the skill set 
that many do not understand that comes from military service. 
It is the commitment to service, the ability to operate and 
complete tasks in sometimes a very stressful environment. The 
work ethic, obviously. Task completion, ethics, and all those 
rules that go with being a good service Member and to receive 
the kind of step up. And also with some creativity and 
ingenuity.
    In talking about access to capital though, I was going to 
maybe sort of go down the line. You talk about access to 
capital. One of the issues I have, and I come from a rural 
area. And Mr. Haynie knows I am just around the corner. But it 
is actually, even though Syracuse is big and I love your orange 
by the way.
    Mr. HAYNIE. And I live in your district.
    Ms. TENNEY. Oh, that is great. But we are all Syracuse 
fans. Anyone that is in the vicinity. So, although I went to 
Colgate, so my brother and my nephew are Syracuse graduates and 
we love all our upstate schools. And we love our military. We 
have great military opportunities, but a lot of it is in rural 
areas.
    So when you talk about access to capital, you know, the 
opportunity to create jobs and get the types of jobs--no 
everyone in the military is going to do a high tech job. How do 
we do jobs that are maybe more capital intensive in industry 
that would take a little more time to get up and running but 
would last longer. And so maybe I would say is that something 
that you are seeing? Just because of that skillset that people 
in the military would bring, how do we get that type of long-
term investment in making things again which would be great, 
you know, as part of the Made in America, reshoring our jobs 
back here is something our military would be so excellent at, 
how would we handle, how can we make better laws to give you 
access to capital to make that happen?
    Mr. SHAMESS. Thank you for the question.
    Mr. PEACOCK. Can I take this one?
    Ms. TENNEY. You can all chime in whatever order you want to 
do.
    Mr. PEACOCK. Sure. One thing that has been not mentioned is 
the USDA. They are very strong supporters of rural businesses 
and any type of farm business. They have got guaranteed loan 
programs as well at the SBA. And I am in a rural area as well 
and they will do most any type of rural business, provide 
funding for that. So I wanted to mention the USDA, as well as 
the SBA as another funding possibility to capitalize small 
rural based businesses. Thank you.
    Mr. SHAMESS. So I love the idea of creating jobs and 
businesses where you are. And I think that is very important, 
especially in rural communities in Small Town America. And so 
when you think about the landscape of small business, it is 
incredibly diverse. You have entrepreneurs that are sole 
proprietors that buying that truck can be the business. That 
can be it; right? There are other businesses that can be 
started with $10,000. And so when I think about the Post-9/11 
GI benefit for example being used as a capital tool for 
business ownership, you can do a lot with that amount of money 
for most of these businesses. And so you are talking about, 
depending on the state you are in, that can be $80,000 over the 
course of 3 years. That is a tremendous amount of money to 
start, whether it is something that is going to be an employer 
or something that you are going to be a sole proprietor and 
that can stay local to where you are. And so I think that would 
be one of the best tools is that H.R. 4991 being brought back 
in a bipartisan way.
    Ms. TENNEY. And I think investing from not just one source 
but you are saying investing whether it is a car loan. We have 
taken a lot of reindustrialization in our region and it is 
interesting that a lot of these people tend to be former 
military or dairy farmers. I find that those are the most 
resourceful people I know. They get the job done. They know how 
to fix things. They do not complain. They work long hours and 
that is why I just think this is just a goal mine to be able to 
access the skill set that you have all learned by being in the 
military to be able to use that to industry and growing our 
regions again, especially in Upstate New York. We have this 
beautiful area of the country but we are not getting the 
capital we need. And we have people who have proven records and 
I would just love to be able to highlight that. And I do not 
know if Mr. Haynie or Ms. Sayles want to weigh in on that as 
well, quickly. I have 20 seconds.
    Mr. HAYNIE. If I could just add one more thing to that 
point. You can buy a commercial laser for $20,000 with 
installation, ready to run. So you could be a laser 
manufacturer in the United States for $20,000 getting started. 
That is incredible.
    Ms. TENNEY. See, I do not even know that.
    Mr. HAYNIE. But that is incredible; right? You can do that 
anywhere.
    Ms. TENNEY. I am low tech.
    Mr. HAYNIE. Anywhere in the country you can do that.
    Ms. TENNEY. That is fantastic.
    Anything else quickly before I run out of time? Again, I 
cannot thank you enough for what you do and your service, and 
helping our veterans is really important. Thank you.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
    Thank you to our witnesses for testifying today and for 
your service on behalf of our country. Those that have served 
in our Armed Forces are often natural entrepreneurs as has been 
discussed here. The skills they develop in the military like 
leadership, perseverance, resourcefulness, and discipline make 
them ideal business owners. These veteran-owned businesses play 
a key role in supporting the American economy and communities 
across the country. Our country stands to benefit immensely by 
making it as easy as possible for veterans to start and run 
their businesses.
    Today, we heard invaluable testimony about what is and is 
not working when it comes to SBA veteran programs. I hope that 
we can apply these lessons moving forward as we work to advance 
policies that empower veteran business owners.
    Without objection, Members have 5 legislative days to 
submit statements and supporting materials for the record.
    If there is no further business to come before the 
Committee, without objection, we are adjourned. Thank you.
    [Ms. Sayles did not subimt her responses to questions in a 
timely manner.]
    [Whereupon, at 11:51 a.m., the committee was adjourned.]
    
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