[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                  ACCOUNTABILITY AND JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES 
                   COMMITTED IN UKRAINE BY THE RUSSIAN 
                   FEDERATION

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                    SUBCOMMITTEE ON EUROPE, ENERGY, THE 
                            ENVIRONMENT AND CYBER

                                 OF THE

                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                              MAY 11, 2022

                               __________

                           Serial No. 117-125

                               __________

        Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
        
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                                 __________

                                
                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
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                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

                  GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, Chairman

BRAD SHERMAN, California              MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking 
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey                  Member
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia	      CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida	      STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
KAREN BASS, California		      SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts	      DARRELL ISSA, California
DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island	      ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
AMI BERA, California		      LEE ZELDIN, New York
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas	              ANN WAGNER, Missouri
DINA TITUS, Nevada		      BRIAN MAST, Florida
TED LIEU, California		      BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania	      KEN BUCK, Colorado
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota	      TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota		      MARK GREEN, Tennessee
COLIN ALLRED, Texas		      ANDY BARR, Kentucky
ANDY LEVIN, Michigan		      GREG STEUBE, Florida
ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia	      DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania	      AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey	      PETER MEIJER, Michigan
ANDY KIM, New Jersey	              NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
SARA JACOBS, California		      RONNY JACKSON, Texas
KATHY MANNING, North Carolina	      YOUNG KIM, California
JIM COSTA, California		      MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida
JUAN VARGAS, California		      JOE WILSON, South Carolina
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas		      
BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois              
        
                    Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director

               Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director
                                
                                ------                                

        Subcommittee on Europe, Energy,the Environment and Cyber

              WILLIAM R. KEATING, Massachusetts, Chairman

SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania             BRIAN FITZPATRICK, 
ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia             Pennsylvania,Ranking Member
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey		     ANN WAGNER, Missouri
THEODORE DEUTCH, Florida	     ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois,
DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island	     BRIAN MAST, Florida
DINA TITUS, Nevada		     DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota	     AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
JIM COSTA, California		     NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas	             PETER MEIJER, Michigan
BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois

                      Leah Nodvin, Staff Director
                           
                           
                           C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page

                               WITNESSES

Carpenter, Ambassador Dr. Michael R., Permanent Representative of 
  the United States of America to the Organization for Security 
  and Cooperation in Europe, U.S. Mission to the Organization for 
  Security and Cooperation in Europe, U.S. Department of State...     8

                                APPENDIX

Hearing Notice...................................................    30
Hearing Minutes..................................................    31
Hearing Attendance...............................................    32

 
 ACCOUNTABILITY AND JUSTICE FOR WAR CRIMES COMMITTED IN UKRAINE BY THE 
                           RUSSIAN FEDERATION

                        Wednesday, May 11, 2022

                          House of Representatives,
                Subcommittee on Europe, Energy, the
                             Environment and Cyber,
                      Committee on Foreign Affairs,
                                                    Washington, DC.

    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:10 p.m., via 
Webex, Hon. William Keating (chairman of the subcommittee) 
presiding.
    Chairman Keating. House Foreign Affairs Subcommittee will 
come to order.
    Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a 
recess of the committee at any point and all members will have 
5 days to submit statements, extraneous material, and questions 
for the record subject to the length limitations to the rules. 
To insert something in the record please have your staff the 
previously mentioned address or contact full committee staff.
    Please keep your video function on at all times even when 
you are not recognized by the chair. Members are responsible 
for muting and un-muting themselves and please remember to mute 
yourself after finished speaking.
    The system with House Resolution 965 and the accompanying 
regulation staff will only mute members and witnesses as 
appropriate when they are not under recognition to eliminate 
background noise.
    I see we have a quorum present. Now recognize myself for an 
opening statement pursuant to the notice.
    We are holding a hearing today entitled, ``Justice and 
Accountability for War Crimes Committed in Ukraine by the 
Russian Federation.''
    Good afternoon and I thank all of you for participating in 
today's hearing. This is a timely and critical topic.
    On March 16 just days after the Russian Federation invaded 
Ukraine this subcommittee held a hearing dedicated to the early 
signs of war crimes and human rights abuses committed in 
Ukraine by the Russian military. Since that time the U.S. has 
taken significant steps to support the people of Ukraine in 
their fight for freedom while supporting the careful 
preservation of evidence of war crimes that are committed by 
the Russian Federation in Ukraine.
    Today Putin's war on Ukraine rages on and the onslaught of 
Russian aggression continues. More and more heartbreaking 
stories emerge from the front lines. It has no been 76 days 
since Russia's renewed invasion of Ukraine and the evidence of 
war crimes is insurmountable.
    As the Russian military retreated from the north of Kiev 
horrific accounts of war crimes and human rights abuse 
surfaced. Bucha, Borodianka, Irpin, Chernihiv, Sumy, Hostomel, 
and Kharkiv. In such instances Reuters reported that the 
residents of Staryi Bykiv watched and watched on as six of 
their civilian male countrymen died needless at the hands of 
the Russian troop.
    Russian military is also using sexual assault as a weapon 
of war. Many accusations of rape are streaming in all across 
Ukraine. Women and children have been the main targets of 
Russian sexual violence. In another instance the New York Times 
reported that a mother in Kharkiv sheltering with her 5-year-
old daughter in school was forced into another room and 
repeatedly raped at gunpoint.
    As reports like this increase we cannot dismiss these as 
isolated incidents. At what point do we turn these systematic?
    Probably one of the worst stories yet is the deliberate 
bombing of the Donetsk Academic Regional Drama Theater in 
Mariupol that occurred on March 16. Reports from the Associated 
Press estimated that 600 civilians died in that blast. 
``Dity,'' the Ukrainian word for children was painted on the 
ground in plain sight of satellite imagery. This was a signal 
to any Russian reconnaissance that this is a civilian target, 
yet still countless children died. We still do not know the 
exact number, but the site is now a mass grave under Russian 
occupation.
    And the worst yet may be to come as the fighting 
intensifies in the east and in the south. Russian military has 
continued artillery rocket and missile bombardment of civilian 
infrastructures and they disregard humanitarian excavation 
routes killing unarmed passengers as they drive in their cars. 
So far U.N. investigators have documented nearly 3,000 civilian 
deaths in Ukraine.
    My colleagues, based on the evidence collected so far I 
believe the Russian Federation is undeniably committing crimes 
against humanity that amount to genocide. I repeat, and I do 
not take the term lightly, I believe that they--I believe that 
we are seeing in Ukraine right now is a genocide committed by 
the Russian Federation against the people of Ukraine. I will 
leave it up to the lawyers to debate the exact abrogation of 
this term, but to me Putin rhetoric and his blatant attempt to 
ride this world--to rid this world of people and the culture of 
Ukraine itself meets this definition.
    It is now the job of the international community, including 
Members of Congress and especially this subcommittee, to keep 
the spotlight on these atrocities and to see--so that the U.S. 
does everything in its power to help the Ukrainians seek 
justice.
    As chair of the subcommittee I was on the ground in Poland 
just 2 weeks ago to hear firsthand the stories of Ukrainian 
refugees who have fled westward. Some have trekked hundreds of 
miles, never knowing if they will see their homes again or if 
their homes are even going to be there when they go back to it.
    I heard stories of family members including children 
pleading with Russian soldiers to leave Mariupol only to be 
rejected at the contact line. Their fate has been to wait out 
the bombardment or get shipped to Russia and join reduction 
camps. I returned from Poland, reconfirmed that the U.S. must 
do everything in our power to ensure justice for the victims of 
these war crimes committed in the Ukraine, yet this 
determination of mine I think (inaudible) on a few points.
    First, we live in an age where perpetrators cannot hide. 
Between cell phone photos and videos captured in the 
battlefields and postings on social media to satellite images 
of Russian attacks the truth is still out there and we have to 
just see it to watch it.
    Second, we live in a period of great unity and solidarity 
with Ukraine. This is exactly why our forbearers created the 
United Nations, NATO, and other international institutions.
    And finally, we have a collective conscience with shared 
values. We know that the values that we share are being 
violated. We know this war is wrong. We know these atrocities 
are not isolated. The question is what will we do and how will 
we live up to our commitments of never again?
    With that being said, I look forward to the testimony we 
are about to hear from our esteemed witness, Ambassador Michael 
Carpenter. Dr. Carpenter has been a vocal critic of the Kremlin 
and has persistently advocated for not only the Ukrainian 
people, but for human rights in general. To bring war criminals 
to justice the coalition of countries and international 
organizations need to cooperate and relentlessly pursue these 
cases. The ranking member and I have asked Ambassador Carpenter 
to speak about the ways in which the OSCE can play an important 
role in this effort.
    Thank you very much, Ambassador, for being here today. I 
look forward to hearing your perspectives on how the U.S. and 
especially Congress can work in promoting awareness and gather 
information from possible war crimes on Ukraine holding war 
criminals accountable.
    And I now turn to the ranking member, Mr. Fitzpatrick. I 
thank him for his cooperation and support in this and his 
commitment to Ukraine which goes back to his days before 
Congress in the FBI. Thank you, ranking member. And I now yield 
to you for your opening statement.
    Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Chairman Keating. Thank you for 
your partnership. This is something that our entire Congress 
and our entire nation have rallied around, the cause of 
supporting freedom and independence for the good people of 
Ukraine and also fully pursuing the war crimes of Vladimir 
Putin and his regime.
    I want to thank the chairman for holding this hearing 
today.
    To the Ambassador, Ambassador Carpenter, for being here 
with us.
    As we all know, Russia invaded Ukraine back on February 24, 
earlier this year. They have not stopped in their unjustified 
war on the innocent people of Ukraine ever since. And as a 
result more than 6 million Ukrainians have left the country. 
Europe is facing the largest refugee crisis since World War II 
and over a quarter of the population of Ukraine has been 
displaced.
    Just this morning news coverage estimated that another 
10,000 people could die in Mariupol by the end of the year if 
conditions did not improve. This is just a complete atrocity. 
And it is no secret what Russia is capable of and how far they 
are willing to go to achieve total control of the former Soviet 
Bloc. It is also clear that Russia has committed war crimes in 
Ukraine against Ukrainians.
    As the chairman had pointed out, some of the examples 
include intentionally killing civilians, overt acts of torture, 
hostage taking, beheadings, intentionally targeting and 
destroying civilian property. The list goes on and on. We have 
seen Russian forces attack and fire upon a nuclear plant, 
bombed civilian infrastructure buildings such as residential 
homes and apartments, destroy and operating maternity ward with 
infants inside, and target a pediatric cancer hospital. Does 
not get any worse than this. And these are only a few of the 
horrific acts that the Putin regime has carried out and it is 
clear that they stop at nothing including killing innocent 
children and women, including children with cancer in order to 
continue his rampage on Ukraine.
    The Russian Federation has a long history of committing war 
crimes and it has never been held accountable, and that needs 
to change. Moreover, this is no indication that Russia will 
stop their attacks on Ukraine any time soon. How many times 
will Russia have to be accused of committing war crimes for 
them to be stopped. The people of Ukraine deserve justice and 
the entire world is watching. And the time is now to hold 
Russia accountable for the horrific acts of the people of 
Ukraine.
    And I look forward to continuing working with Chairman 
Keating in a bipartisan manner, with you, Mr. Ambassador, and 
with all people across the world, including everybody in this 
Congress who wants to support freedom and democracy and human 
rights, and all that is good in the world. The Ukrainians are 
showing us their heart, but we need to back them up, not just 
the United States, but the entire world. Anybody who supports 
freedom and democracy over dictatorships needs to step up and 
make the tough decisions to do what is right here.
    Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
    Chairman Keating. Thank you, ranking member.
    And I would like to introduce our witness today and thank 
him for being here. It is critically important that we hear 
from you and that you communicate in your role not only the way 
you are to other countries, but to us as Members of Congress.
    Yesterday I joined a group of members meeting with 
President Biden for over 2 hours in the White House and we 
talked about this hearing. We talked about the war crimes that 
are being committed and his commitment to bring accountability 
and justice wherever he can.
    Ambassador, again thank you for being here.
    Ambassador Michael R. Carpenter is a permanent 
representative of the United States of America Mission, the 
Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. He is the 
Former Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for Russia, 
Ukraine, and Eurasia, and Conventional Arms Control at the 
Pentagon, as well as a former White House Foreign Policy 
Advisor to then-Vice President Biden, and Director for Russia 
at the National Security Council.
    I will now recognize Ambassador Carpenter for 5 minutes. 
And we give great deal of flexibility. It is a virtual hearing 
that is being taken place while some votes are being taken 
place.
    And I want to also say that without objection, your 
prepared written statements will be made part of the record.
    Ambassador Carpenter, you are now recognized for your 
opening statement.

STATEMENT OF AMBASSADOR MICHAEL R. CARPENTER, Ph D., PERMANENT 
     REPRESENTATIVE OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA TO THE 
   ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN EUROPE, U.S. 
  MISSION TO THE ORGANIZATION FOR SECURITY AND COOPERATION IN 
                EUROPE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

    Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Chairman Keating, Ranking Member 
Fitzpatrick, and distinguished members of the subcommittee.
    I greatly appreciate this opportunity to appear before you 
today to testify on the topic of accountability and justice for 
Russia's atrocities including war crimes in Ukraine.
    The OSCE has played a unique and important role in 
documenting the horrific atrocities Russia has committed and 
continues to commit in Ukraine. As some of my colleagues 
testified last week in the Helsinki Commission's hearing on war 
crimes in Ukraine, one of the OSCE's most powerful tools is its 
ability to quickly establish and deploy a fact-finding mission, 
even without the consensus of all the OSCE's participating 
States.
    On March 3, 45 OSCE participating States, a record 
majority, that included the United States, invoked with 
Ukraine's support what is informally known as the Moscow 
Mechanism and in less than 2 weeks the mission was launched. It 
was mandated to examine possible violations and abuses of human 
rights and violations of international humanitarian law 
including war crimes and crimes against humanity.
    The mission's report released on April 13 covers the first 
5 weeks of the war from February 24 to April 1 and documents 
what might be called the Catalog of Inhumanity perpetrated by 
Russia's forces in Ukraine including evidence of direct 
targeting of civilians, attacks on medical facilities, rape, 
executions, looting, and deportation of civilians to Russia.
    The mission found clear patterns of international 
humanitarian law violations by Russia's forces and noted that 
it is not conceivable that so many civilians would have been 
killed and injured and so many civilians objects would have 
been damaged or destroyed if Russia had respected its 
international humanitarian law obligations in terms of 
distinction, proportionality, and precautions.
    The report documents many particularly heinous attacks such 
as the March 9 attack striking the Mariupol Maternity House and 
Children's Hospital that the chairman referred to determining 
that based upon Russia's own statements about the strike, 
quote, ``The attack must have been deliberate,'' end quote. The 
mission concluded that no effective warning was given and that 
the strike constitutes a clear violation of international 
humanitarian law and a war crime. While the Russian government 
alleged the hospital was used for military purposes, the 
mission categorically dismissed these claims.
    Similarly the mission found that the March 16 attack on the 
drama theater in Mariupol that killed approximately 600 people 
was most likely an egregious violation of international 
humanitarian law and that those who ordered or executed it 
committed a war crime. The reporter powerful chronicles cases 
of Russia's forces arresting civilians including journalists 
without any procedure and ill-treating them by methods that 
amount to torture.
    It also cites evidence showing that Russia's forces engaged 
in a, quote, ``widespread and systematic pattern,'' end quote, 
of damage to Ukrainian health care facilities with attacks on 
52 facilities just between February 24 and March 22 by 
indiscriminate bombardment and in some cases intentional 
targeting noting that these strikes too constitute war crimes.
    Since the period covered in the report the scale of 
atrocities committed by Russia's forces in Ukraine has 
dramatically escalated. Russia has continued its campaign of 
utter destruction in Mariupol and has launched a renewed 
offensive in Ukraine's east and south. Tens of thousands of 
civilians are feared dead in Russia's barbaric siege of 
Mariupol. Liberated areas around Kiev and Kharkiv have revealed 
evidence of mass killings and widespread sexual violence 
committed by members of Russia's forces again civilians.
    Russia appears to be intensifying its ongoing forced 
transfers and deportations of local populations from Mariupol 
and other regions of Ukraine to Russia or Russia-controlled 
parts of the Donbas through so-called filtration camps, a truly 
abominable practice that hearkens back to an era we all thought 
we would never see again.
    Liberated areas around Kiev and Kharkiv have revealed 
evidence of mass killing and widespread sexual violence 
committed by members of Russia's forces against Ukrainian 
civilians and further credible reports are mounting that Russia 
is further abducting, torturing, and/or murdering locally 
elected leaders, journalists, and civil society activists, as 
well as religious leaders in the areas under its control.
    It is increasingly clear that Russia's war is an attempt to 
suppress Ukrainian identity and culture. Moscow appears to be 
planning to attempt to forcibly annex the so-called Donetsk and 
Luhansk People's Republics in the coming weeks or months and is 
considering a similar operation in the Kherson region.
    In areas under its control Russia has forced schools to 
switch to a Russian curriculum and has put the Russian ruble 
into general use. It has also started changing the names of 
towns and villages in areas it controls as well as changing 
street signs from Ukrainian to Russian.
    Russia's military campaign is underpinned by continuous 
dehumanizing propaganda deployed on a repeat loop by Russian 
government officials and State-run or State-controlled media 
that deny Ukraine is historically or culturally distinct from 
Russia and that it has a right to exist as a sovereign 
independent nation State.
    Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, thanks to the 
support of the United States and like-minded nations the OSCE's 
highly regarded Office of Democratic Institutions and Human 
Rights, ODIHR, is already on the ground in Ukraine and 
neighboring countries researching and documenting the most 
serious violations of human rights and international 
humanitarian law to help ensure accountability.
    We continue to explore ways we can leverage the OSCE to 
support Ukraine and the Ukrainian people alongside other 
international efforts to ensure accountability including 
another potential invocation of the Moscow Mechanism. We are 
committed to using every available tool to ensure Russia is 
held accountable for its monstrous atrocities.
    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I look forward to any questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Carpenter follows:]

    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
    
    Chairman Keating. Thank you, Ambassador.
    I may, just because of the format here--I notice on the 
screen is--Representative Wild is here.
    I do not know if you would like to given the roll calls 
begin your questioning now. I will give you that opportunity 
for 5 minutes.
    Ms. Wild. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would be 
delighted to do my questioning if that is what I was being 
offered. Did I hear correctly?
    Chairman Keating. Yes.
    Ms. Wild. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.
    And thank you, Mr. Ambassador, for being here. This is a 
matter of great importance to me, but also to my community in 
Pennsylvania's 7th District where we have one of the largest 
Ukrainian American populations here in the United States. And 
so I feel very strongly, because many of them still have family 
and friends in Ukraine, that it is my obligation on their 
behalf to ask about the Administration's efforts to make sure 
that Russian officials are going to held to some degree of 
justice and accountability for the actions. And I can hear from 
your opening statement that that is the full intent that you 
have and that the Administration has, and I thank you for that.
    Let me just start by asking how far is the Administration 
prepared to go in supporting the efforts to hold Russia and 
Russian officials accountable, including any proceedings in the 
International Criminal Court despite the fact that we are not a 
member?
    And I will as you my second question just so you can answer 
both at the same time. Does the Administration have a view on 
the specific mechanism through which Putin and high-ranking 
Russian officials could be held to account for these actions? 
Thank you.
    Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Representative Wild, for that--
for those two questions.
    On the first we are determined to support all international 
accountability mechanisms to include the International Criminal 
Court. As my colleague Beth Van Schaack, Special Envoy Beth Van 
Schaack has said before, we support an all-of-the-above 
approach. So we are determined to use all of the multilateral 
tools as well as frankly national jurisdictions to pursue 
accountability. And as I am sure you are aware, the Ukrainian 
prosecutor general is also working over time to ensure that she 
is able to document cases of war crimes and possible crimes 
against humanity in Ukraine. In fact, I believe she has brought 
her first case just today against a captive Russian service 
member.
    But we are determined to use all of the tools available to 
include the OSCE and its Moscow Mechanism, which we have 
invoked once. And as I said, we are prepared to invoke it 
again. We have the U.N. Commission of Inquiry, which has been 
established but not--is not yet up and running. And so we hope 
that that jurisdiction will have progress. The prosecutor of 
the International Criminal Court has found that he is going to 
pursue this line of inquiry into war crimes in Ukraine and we 
will support that to the maximal extent we can.
    Then on your second question regarding President Putin, it 
is our belief that all Russians within the chain of command who 
are guilty of war crimes should be accountable. And of course 
this is a tricky question of how you get them into a 
jurisdiction where they can face justice from a court of law, 
as they must. It is not going to be easy, but we believe at the 
end of the day that we have to insist that everyone at all 
different levels of the chain of command is held accountable.
    Ms. Wild. Well, thank you. Obviously I agree. And your 
answer leads to this, which is would you agree that these 
atrocities have reinforced the need for a more effective 
international justice system that can hold powerful countries 
accountable?
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you, Congresswoman. I do agree. I 
think we need a system that is flexible but that has the 
authority to immediately pursue these sorts of cases when 
evidence comes to light that there are war crimes or other 
crimes against humanity, potentially genocide, and so on and so 
forth. There are multiple overlapping jurisdictions. It is a 
little bit messy, but we intend to work through all of those 
accountable mechanisms as I just said including the ICC, but 
also the ICJ, which is also looking into the question of 
genocide in Ukraine. And we are going to continue to help these 
institutions to compile the evidence, preserve the evidence, 
and bring cases against individuals.
    Ms. Wild. Thank you. I am hoping we will use this as a tool 
for enhancing our international criminal justice system going 
forward in the future. I have fears that Russians and the Putin 
regime, in part because of Russia's robust global propaganda 
machine, do not take these calls for accountability and justice 
seriously or do not view them seriously. And I think it is 
essential that we carry through with our word, that we take--
that we support all efforts to hold them accountable, and as I 
said and have mentioned, using every possible tool to do so 
because we cannot allow Putin and other superpowers to believe 
that they are going to be free of eventual justice. So thank 
you so much for this commitment.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
    The chair now recognizes Representative Meijer for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Meijer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Can you hear me?
    OK. And I am grateful that we are having the chance to hold 
this subcommittee hearing. I appreciate some of our earlier 
work when we hosted Bellingcat and some of the other open 
source observers who have been cataloging a lot of these 
Russian atrocities.
    I guess my first question for Ambassador Carpenter--when we 
are looking at cataloging the war crimes, to my knowledge there 
hasn't yet been the kind of smoking gun plan coming from on 
high, from the Russian generals, from Vladimir Putin that says 
we want to systematically and categorically kill off the 
civilian population of Ukraine. We have obviously seen the 
intercepted messages from more senior officers, more mid-
ranking members, and then also the awareness on behalf of some 
of the lower junior officers and lower enlisted who are 
perpetrating many of these crimes.
    How are we looking at the question of intentionality, the 
specific targeting as we saw in Mariupol where it could not 
have been more clear that that was a facility with children 
inside versus the just indiscriminate attacks, the lack of any 
efforts made to reduce civilian casualties that has frankly 
seemed to be the modus operandi of the Russian military?
    Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Representative Meijer, for that 
question. I think it is going to be--each case is going to be a 
little bit different. I think we are going to have to rely on 
both declassified intelligence as well as open sources 
regarding culpability at both the unit or individual soldier 
level and then all the way up to those as I said in the chain 
of command who may have given orders that were to some degree 
explicit about the perpetration of these crimes.
    Now I am not a lawyer. I understand that the war crimes 
themselves will be prosecuted based on an individual basis, so 
individuals will be held to account in a court of law, but also 
international human rights law can determine that if there is 
in fact systematic patterns of abuse and systematic war crimes, 
that those are crimes against humanity and that label gets 
applied potentially to the Russian Federation as a State.
    And so frankly, we are looking as we expand our efforts 
possibly with a second invocation of this Moscow Mechanism and 
working together with other accountability mechanisms 
internationally at both of those angles and then genocide 
relatedly. But that is the systematic nature. And it goes to 
intentionality at the top and whether there was an expectation 
that these crimes would be committed by units in Ukraine 
especially after information has already come to light that 
these sorts of crimes were being perpetrated.
    And then to your point, I think it is a little bit more 
difficult with some of the indiscriminate attacks, but cases 
have been made in the past and can be made that lack of respect 
for any proportionality with regards to targeting is in fact a 
war crime.
    Mr. Meijer. And I have actually mentioned that kind of 
general labeling potential for Russia, the Russian Federation I 
should say, that crimes against humanity. I know President 
Biden has suggested labeling or designating Russia as a State 
sponsor of terrorism.
    Can you speak at all to how--what type of overlap that 
would have with war crimes and kind of atrocity international 
prosecution side, if those are two wholly different separate 
channels? I am just curious. I feel like we haven't had 
necessarily a robust discussion on that and in prior instances 
we have looked at--and the Russian equivalent here would 
probably be the Wagner Group--we have looked at sort of 
mercenary forces or aligned but not necessarily in the full 
military chain of command, the Quds force in Iran being 
another--forces that we can designate as terrorist--foreign 
terrorist organization. But I guess how are you seeing that 
being weighed, FTO designations for constituent components 
versus the Nation, Russian Federation itself being label a 
State sponsor of terror?
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you so much for that question. So 
my understanding is that the cases that are brought under the 
war crimes mantra, or as crimes against humanity, those are 
violations of international law, either of international 
humanitarian law or international human rights law.
    The designation of a State as a State sponsor of terrorism 
is defined by U.S. statute and would be--so this would not be a 
matter of international law; this would be a determination that 
would have to be made by the State Department upon legal review 
as to whether the definition, whether the bar that is defined 
in that statute has been met.
    Now my understanding on this State sponsor of terrorism 
label is that the statute then requires that certain sanctions 
be implemented as a result. And my understanding is that many 
of those sanctions that would be triggered by this designation 
are already in play. So in terms of practical consequences and 
accountability I think a lot of those actions have already been 
taken. There might be scope for doing a little bit more, but I 
think most of those actions are already underway. So this would 
be pursuant to domestic legislation as opposed to 
international.
    Mr. Meijer. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.
    And, Mr. Chairman, my time is expired. I yield back.
    Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
    The chair now recognizes Representative Phillips for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Phillips. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Welcome, Mr. Ambassador. Three quick questions for you 
starting with how do you mechanically connect atrocities on the 
ground in Ukraine back to the architects of that violence in 
Moscow and ultimately potentially to President Putin himself?
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes, that is a very good question and a very 
tricky one. It will be difficult I think to find because of the 
insular nature of Kremlin decisionmaking and because of the 
fact that the Kremlin also wants to keep those communications 
secret. It is very difficult to trace back specific instances, 
or will be difficult in the future to trace back to specific 
instances on the ground, whether it is in Bucha or Borodianka, 
or any of these other atrocities that we now see have come to 
light back to a specific order given from the Kremlin.
    But I think all leads will be pursued. There may be 
commanders in the field who in the course of their 
communication may reveal the level at which the order was given 
or it may be subordinates who are talking about this. And then 
we would have to infer how far up it goes. So it is going to be 
a painstaking effort, I have to say. It is not going to be 
easy. I do not want to give any impressions that this is going 
to be simple.
    But certainly I think those leads will be pursued and we 
will--as I said earlier, we are going to use all available 
tools, open-source and not open-source, to pursue the evidence 
where it leads.
    Mr. Phillips. OK. And relative to that work how 
intentionally as--have the Russians tried to stymie the work of 
the OSCE field missions themselves and hinder progress? Are 
they calculated in that respect.
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes, absolutely. Very calculated. So we saw 
back when we had the Special Monitoring Mission active in 
Ukraine, with its 600 or 700 members that was documenting 
cease-fire violations and the presence of heavy weapons in 
prescribed zones in Eastern Ukraine, that its freedom of 
movement, which was stipulated both in the mandate of the 
Special Monitoring Mission, which was agreed by Russia--but 
then also in the three Minsk Agreements, the ones from 
September 2014 and February 2015, specifically said that it 
should be granted unfettered access, and yet we saw that 
Russia's proxies, who were under the very clear command and 
control of the Russian Federation, were blocking that mission 
from having the access that it needed to be able to declare 
that cease-fire violations were occurring in this or that area.
    So we saw that repeatedly. And then we have seen it again. 
In fact we see now detentions of national staff members of the 
OSCE SMM by Russia's proxies in Eastern Ukraine, which is just 
beyond the pale in terms of the fact that they signed up to 
this mission. They were partly responsible for the fact that it 
existed and it was deployed on the ground.
    Mr. Phillips. Can you quantify how many detentions?
    Mr. Carpenter. My understanding is four, but I may not have 
the latest data because this is being worked in the OSCE 
Secretariat. But there are--to my knowledge there have been 
four cases of such detentions.
    Mr. Phillips. OK. Last and most importantly, what can the 
U.S. Congress do to support the OSCE investigations and the 
field missions investigating war crimes? Is there anything 
incrementally that you would like to see us provide or do?
    Mr. Carpenter. Well, I think the OSCE currently has the 
resources that it needs to pursue additional accountability 
mechanisms using the Moscow Mechanism and also using--I should 
have mentioned at the outset also using the Office of 
Democratic Institutions and Human Rights, which has a mandate--
it is one of the autonomous institutions within the OSCE and it 
has a specific mandate to monitor human rights violations. Some 
of its staff are already redeployed inside Ukraine and are 
conducting monitoring. Others have deployed to the borders 
between Ukraine and Poland, and Ukraine and Romania, and 
Moldova and Slovakia, Hungary, to interview those refugees who 
are fleeing Ukraine to gather evidence about systematic 
patterns of human rights violations and war crimes inside 
Ukraine.
    So there may be a need for additional funding especially 
for the ODIHR monitoring, which is ongoing. I think we, the 
State Department, has the authorities and the funding streams 
currently to be able to back those efforts. And we will, and 
we--but we count on Congress as well to continue to support 
vocally from your bully pulpit the use of these tools to hold 
individuals accountable.
    Mr. Phillips. OK. Well most importantly thank you for your 
remarkable and important work.
    And with that, I yield back. Thank you.
    Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
    The chair now recognizes Representative Wagner for 5 
minutes.
    Mrs. Wagner. I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And I want to thank Ambassador Carpenter also for his 
service and certainly for his time today.
    We know that Putin's soldiers are deliberately killing 
civilians, preying upon the defenseless and vulnerable. Russian 
war crimes are certainly a profound offense to all peaceful and 
responsible nations and they must always be matched with severe 
consequences.
    Russia seeks to erase the bright line that must separate 
combatants from civilians. It is reviving the abhorrent 
practices and idealogies that were the hallmarks of 
totalitarian dictatorships of the previous century, the 
discriminate and wanton violence, terror, summary executions, 
and mass killings. It has been decades since the world has seen 
a country so shamelessly embrace a cult of death and violence. 
This is a pivotal moment in history and swift decisive action 
to punish Putin's war crimes is imperative.
    Putin has proven himself to be the heir of the worst mass 
murderers in history. He must be stopped and punished and the 
United States must do what it can today to prepare for the 
moment when Putin at last suffers the consequences of his 
crimes.
    Ambassador Carpenter, following Russia's initial invasion 
of Ukraine in 2014 human rights groups reported evidence of 
crimes against humanity including the summary execution of 
soldiers and the murder of prisoners of war. How did the 
Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, the OSCE, 
use its tools and mechanisms then to hold Russia accountable 
for those prior crimes against humanity? And has the OSCE 
incorporated any lessons learned to assure that its 
accountability efforts are more effective in deterring human 
rights violations?
    Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Congresswoman, for the question. 
So as I noted in the opening statement, the OSCE did invoke the 
Moscow Mechanism to be able to look into egregious human rights 
violations, war crimes, and crimes against humanity. The period 
from the initial report that was conducted and assembled by the 
fact-finding mission was from February 21--February 24, excuse 
me, the first day of the invasion and it went through to April 
1.
    Now as you will recall, Congresswoman, the evidence, 
especially of the summary execution of civilians; not even 
solders or POWs, but civilians----
    Mrs. Wagner. Right.
    Mr. Carpenter [continuing]. In Bucha, the folks who had 
their hands tied behind their backs and were shot point blank 
in the head, that evidence, or at least the video evidence came 
to light in early April. So after the period where this fact-
finding team was mandated to look at these questions in 
Ukraine.
    So what we are now contemplating doing, and what I have 
advocated and I mentioned again in the opening statement, is a 
re-invocation of the Moscow Mechanism. We can go back and look 
at the same period, from February 24 until today, or until 
whenever they choose based on their mandate, to look again at 
these very same questions and to analyze the systematic pattern 
of these violations in Bucha----
    Mrs. Wagner. OK. Thank you. Thank you, Ambassador. I want 
to get one more question in as I am running out of time.
    We are seeing reports of Ukrainians, especially children, 
being deported to Russia to be held in captivity and for the 
purpose of perhaps reeducating them, we are told. Do you or the 
OSCE have any more details on these Russian activities?
    Mr. Carpenter. So I cannot say I have a whole lot of 
detail. We have some eyewitness accounts and reports that we 
have received including from Ukrainian government officials, 
the mayor of Mariupol. I personally met with the mayor of 
Melitopal who was abducted from his office in broad daylight. 
In fact it was captured CCTV camera where they put a bag over 
his head and they marched him down the street. He managed to 
escape after I think it was 9 days, or almost 10 days in 
captivity faced with mock executions almost every day. He could 
hear screams of others in the detention facility who he 
believed were being tortured.
    And so yes, we do have reports that these so-called 
filtration camps are operational in Southern and Eastern 
Ukraine, that the Ukrainian population of these regions is 
being forced through these camps. They are being interrogated. 
Their cell phones are being confiscated. They are being forced 
to give up their passwords. All these reports are coming in. It 
is truly atrocious and if true, Congresswoman, it would--those 
would be war crimes.
    Mrs. Wagner. Oh, good. I hope we are documenting 
everything. I have exhausted my time.
    I appreciate the chair's indulgence and I yield back.
    Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
    Now I recognize the vice chair of the committee, 
Representative Spanberger, for 5 minutes. As I vote, she will 
also chair this hearing until I return.
    So, Representative Spanberger?
    Ms. Spanberger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. I really appreciate the 
opportunity to speak with you today and have appreciated your 
comments thus far with the questions posed by my colleagues.
    So technology has always mattered in the prosecution of war 
crimes. The Nazis who stood trial at Nuremberg were convicted 
not only by war reporters' photographs and films, but also by 
their on typewriters and mimeographs. Forensic science and 
satellite imagery added to the prosecution of Rwandan and 
Yugoslavian war criminals. But today we have user-generated 
evidence uploaded to Twitter, Facebook, and other social media 
platforms thousands of times a day in Ukraine alone.
    So I would like for you to comment on how social media and 
modern technology has changed the way that investigators 
collect evidence for potential war crimes. How does social 
media and modern technology ensure perpetrators cannot hide 
evidence of their crimes reports? And I have got some followup 
questions, but I would like to begin with that portion of your 
answers.
    Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, Representative Spanberger. It is 
a great question and obviously social media tools, but other 
forms of technology including commercial satellite imagery have 
been used to identify individuals based on their geo-location, 
based on a variety of other factors that can corroborate that 
they were in a specific place at a specific time when an 
atrocity was being committed.
    We have seen investigations by independent journalists on 
the ground in places like Bucha, and Irpin, and Borodianka 
already which have found documentation by those Russian units 
who were there, that they were involved in these sorts of 
atrocities. At the moment I think it is still limited in terms 
of the number of individuals that have been pinpointed, but as 
I mentioned earlier already the Ukrainian prosecutor general 
has brought a case against one Russian service member who is in 
captivity in Ukraine because they have found compelling 
evidence that he committed war crimes. And I have no doubt that 
there will be many more such cases that are brought through a 
combination of social media evidence and other forms of 
sophisticated use of technologies, information technologies 
to----
    Ms. Spanberger. OK.
    Mr. Carpenter [continuing]. Both locate and then also 
follow those leads.
    Ms. Spanberger. So, Mr. Ambassador, a followup related to 
that: So I think about how the U.S. can facilitate evidence 
gathering activities on the ground and Ukraine's--in 
cooperation with social media companies. One of my concerns or 
my areas of interest is that settlements with the Federal Trade 
Commission have required that certain social media companies 
agree to permanently delete any content that they take down 
from their site, but in many cases that content that may also 
violate terms of service or act as harmful disinformation could 
be evidence of war crimes.
    So how can we when we are looking at how to balance 
concerns over user privacy in a domestic context also balance 
that with the pressing concerns that we want to ensure that we 
are stopping the spread of disinformation, but that we are also 
preserving evidence of war crimes? Are you concerned about the 
issues of when they might have permanently delete information 
what that might mean for evidence?
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you. And I think this is a little 
bit outside of my lane. And of course I appreciate your own 
background and your understanding of these issues, which I 
think is probably more sophisticated than my own. I do think 
that there is a tradeoff there, but since we are talking 
perpetrators who are not U.S. citizens, who are not subject to 
the same constitutional protections that Americans would be, 
there is a distinction to be made there. And perhaps that can 
be leveraged in order to preserve some of this evidence, which 
has been--it has been the pointy tip of the spear as far as 
gathering evidence.
    Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much. I could continue 
asking my questions, but I must go vote. So I turn it back over 
to Mr. Chairman. Thank you.
    Chairman Keating. Mr. Pfluger.
    Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ambassador, we appreciate your time and the effort that you 
are putting into this, and just a couple of questions: I think 
with the information warfare and the use of digital 
manipulation and the false flag operations we have seen can you 
maybe transmit to us in the--I have got a couple other followup 
questions, but what are your concerns on that kind of--that 
side of--it is a little bit to Ms. Spanberger's question, but 
the digital manipulation, or the covering up, or the just 
overall issues with separating fact from fiction and the 
discernment? How does that impact the investigators' ability to 
do their job and to catalog what we know and are seeing as 
fact?
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you so much for the question. So 
as you know, representative, we have been very proactive in 
getting information out into the public arena regarding what we 
believe would be Russian potential false flag operations. And 
this goes back to the period prior to February 24 when we 
believed that Russia was going to stage some sort of false flag 
operation to use it as a pretext for launching the war. At the 
end of the day they did not have any justification whatsoever. 
They just went in with all their forces from 1 day to the next.
    However, Russian propaganda, including here at the OSCE but 
also in other places, has been replete with instances of 
Russians accusing Ukrainians of committing the crimes that we 
know are being committed by Russian forces. I think the 
evidentiary trail is very clear and leads back to those Russian 
units, but in the information space of course we are going to 
be dealing with a very robust stream of Russian propaganda day 
in and day out making these false allegations.
    Mr. Pfluger. Yes, so that kind of goes to the heart of what 
I am trying to understand is during the course of this hearing 
I have actually looked at pictures that are--have been taken 
from a source that are firsthand pictures that depict an 
atrocity that has already been discussed here. And we are 
seeing that time and time again.
    And I have got a followup question on that, but I guess my 
question is how are we cataloging? Are you concerned about 
preserving that evidence? And then are we able to get that out 
into--obviously not the pictures themselves, but to quote/quote 
``win the information campaign'' to make that the propaganda 
from Russia does not overtake the actual evidentiary body that 
there is possibly war crimes--I think what we can call war 
crimes being committed?
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes, so I think it is very important that we 
have folks go in and on the ground are able to look at the 
evidence and preserve the evidence because we have already seen 
these reports that, for example in Mariupol Russia's deploying 
mobile crematoria in order to be able to get rid of some of the 
bodies of those who have suffered from Russian atrocities. And 
so it is very, very important that the international community 
writ large, both the OSCE, but also the other actors that I 
mentioned: the ICC and the U.N. Commission of Inquiry, have 
that access on the ground so that they can preserve the 
evidence. Because often mixed in with that--with those mass 
graves is evidence of who committed those crimes. And so it is 
important to get there quickly.
    Mr. Pfluger. Ambassador, my last question for you is 
looking at past policy precedence for the U.S. has opposed the 
ICC assertions of jurisdiction when it comes to the non-parties 
to the Rome Statute. To what extent do you think this 
Administration is actually going to pursue a war crimes trial 
at the ICC?
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you for the question. So the 
United States is not a party to the Rome Statute obviously, as 
you mentioned, but we will support the ICC and its prosecutor 
in bringing cases against perpetrators of war crimes in 
Ukraine. And we have said that publicly and we will continue to 
do that both via the OSCE, but also via whatever resources we 
have available. And we will have information of course that 
other nations are not privy to that we will be able to share at 
the end of the day with the ICC to enable to bring cases.
    Mr. Pfluger. I have 40 seconds left. With the sources that 
we have that are on the ground in Ukraine should we be--what do 
we do with those assertions of war crimes? And the people that 
we are talking to we know--where do I tell people to send that 
evidence to and how do we facilitate that to continue to build 
this case?
    Mr. Carpenter. Well, I think it is going to be imperative 
at some point that all the various accountability mechanisms 
coordinate. There is already a lot of communication happening, 
but there clearly needs to be a repository of evidence that is 
located in one place. And there is any number of NGO's 
operating in Ukraine, both Ukrainians, but also from other 
nations, that are conducting very valuable work. But again, it 
is important how they do it, what their methodology is, how 
they preserve the evidence so that it withstands scrutiny in a 
court of law when the actual case is brought. And so that 
coordination is imperative. Some of it is already starting to 
happen, but the United States actually--this Administration can 
help promote that coordination among different international 
accountability mechanisms. So thank you for the question.
    Mr. Pfluger. Thank you, Ambassador. My time is expired.
    I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
    Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
    The chair now recognizes Representative Cicilline for 5 
minutes, who will chair the hearing also as I go to vote.
    Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you to 
you and Ranking Member Fitzpatrick for--sorry. Thank you, Mr. 
Chairman and thank you to you and Ranking Member Fitzpatrick 
for holding this really important hearing.
    Since February 24 and the start of Vladimir Putin's 
grotesque war in Ukraine our committee has really snapped into 
action advancing the cause of peaceful freedom for the people 
of Ukraine and the consequences for Vladimir Putin and the 
architects of his unjust invasion.
    Let this hearing serve as a warning to the Putin regime we 
will do all we can to hold you and your enablers responsible 
for your crimes.
    The images that have emerged from areas like Bucha and 
Irpin have stirred the conscience of the world: men, women, and 
children with their hands tied behind their backs and shot to 
death; elderly Ukrainians who were executed while they searched 
for food; civilians confined to frigid hiding places dead from 
thirst; the partially burned bodies of women and girls who were 
victims of depraved acts of sexual violence.
    In pursuit of his terrible plan for the rebirth of a 
Russian Empire, Vladimir Putin is presiding over a military 
that is losing on the battlefield and instead hoping to achieve 
his goals by unleashing horrors on civilians reminiscent of the 
darkest day of World War II or the breakup of Yugoslavia. We 
must ensure that Putin and his regime fails in that aim.
    To that end I am currently working on a bicameral piece of 
legislation with Senator Durbin, chairman of the Senate 
Judiciary Committee, that would allow the United States to hold 
perpetrators who commit war crimes or crimes against humanity 
accountable in U.S. courts. This will ensure that the United 
States does not become a safe haven for criminals who commit 
atrocious human rights violations to live free of 
accountability. In the defense of human rights war criminals 
face justice and I pledge to continue leading on that effort.
    And, Mr. Ambassador, I want to ask you first about that. 
Currently the United States is limited in its jurisdiction to 
try war criminals and perpetrators of other atrocities, meaning 
that even if we have mountains of evidence that a war criminal 
is residing in the United States, we may have no means to hold 
that individual accountable in U.S. courts. Do you think the 
United States should expand our jurisdiction to try war 
criminals on U.S. soil?
    Mr. Carpenter. Thank you, representative. So there are a 
number of OSCE participating States that I work with on a 
regular basis whose courts have invoked universal jurisdiction 
in the past and whose representatives have signaled that they 
intend to do so in the future, specifically with regards to the 
allegations of war crimes committed by Russian forces in 
Ukraine. So this is an avenue that is being pursued by some of 
our allies and partners and I have no doubt that a number of 
these States, which have very sophisticated investigation and 
judicial institutions, will succeed in this effort.
    I do not know how many of the perpetrators of these crimes 
are going to be traveling into these various jurisdictions, so 
how many will actually be apprehended and therefore subject to 
these courts of law, but this is certainly something that a lot 
of countries at the OSCE table are looking at.
    Mr. Cicilline. Great. And, Mr. Ambassador, as you suggested 
collecting and storing and assessing evidence of war crimes 
committed by the Russian Federation, Ukraine is obviously 
critical to any future pursuit of accountability and justice. 
So what country will have access to any evidence that has been 
obtained and stored by OSCE and how can we facilitate greater 
cooperation around access to crucial data? What are things that 
we can be doing?
    Mr. Carpenter. So with regards to the first invocation of 
the Moscow Mechanism, the fact-finding mission that produced 
that first report, they have clearly Stated; and it is in 
writing in the report, that they intend to share their evidence 
that they have collected with any respected international--
basically with any international accountability mechanism.
    If there is a path that they see that will bring 
individuals to justice, they are prepared to share the 
information that they have collected. In fact, much of it is 
already public in the report, but they have committed to doing 
so. And I imagine that if there is a second invocation 
similarly it will make that evidence available to whoever is 
able to do justice for these crimes, for the victims.
    And then finally, the same is true of the Office of 
Democratic Institutions and Human Rights which will make that 
evidence all publicly available. I have heard that it is going 
to be digitized and therefore searchable by others, and I hope 
that is the case.
    Mr. Cicilline. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.
    I see that the chairman is back, and so I will yield back 
to Mr. Keating.
    Chairman Keating. Thank you, representative.
    I now recognize for 5 minutes Representative Meuser.
    Mr. Meuser. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.
    And thank you very much, Ambassador. So I think it is--I 
think all of us on this committee, most of the world see Putin 
as a war criminal. So I will start my questioning with this, 
Ambassador: What would be the--and pardon me if it has already 
been discussed, but has Putin been notified or his staff 
notified at this point that he has engaged in war crimes?
    Mr. Carpenter. So, representative, I think one of the big 
questions that we have is how much information is actually 
getting to Mr. Putin. I think there is a lot of questions about 
whether he is fully understanding how--not only how his troops 
have failed in the field; for example in the northern suburbs 
of Kiev, but also the degree to which they are perpetrating 
atrocities. I think that is an open question.
    However, there is very clear evidence in the simple fact 
that President Putin has bestowed one of the highest honors 
that can be bestowed on a Russian unit; the honor is called the 
Status of Guards, on the specific unit that we believe was 
involved, or at least some of whose members were involved in 
the atrocities in Bucha. And so the fact that so soon--as we 
are still in the midst of this conflict, so soon after the 
perpetration of those atrocities that this particular unit 
would be singled out by the Kremlin with this reward suggests 
that there is some knowledge and in fact tacit public 
acknowledgement of what they are doing.
    Mr. Meuser. OK. So you currently continue to build 
evidence. And are we providing that evidence to those who will 
engage in the procedures of criminalizing Putin's actions?
    Mr. Carpenter. So as I Stated earlier, Congressman, the 
accountability that has been pursued via the OSCE through the 
Moscow Mechanism, that information will be available to all 
international accountability mechanisms including the ICC that 
intend to bring cases. And both the experts who fielded that 
fact-finding mission, but also the participating States who 
invoked it; and there were 45 of us, so 44 others, plus the 
United States, have all said that every individual at every 
level of the chain of command must be held accountable. And so 
there is broad unanimity that that is the way forward.
    Mr. Meuser. What is China's--representatives of the CCP, 
the People's Republic of China--what has been their position? I 
know they apparently are favorable or at least neutral on this 
invasion and on Putin, but is there any information that you 
are receiving that they also appreciate and understand that he 
is committing war crimes?
    Mr. Carpenter. So the PRC is not a member or a partner of 
the OSCE. We have 56 other participating States and 10 partners 
including Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, Afghanistan, 
and the Indo-Pacific, but not the PRC. But to my knowledge they 
have not acknowledged the commission of war crimes by Russian 
forces in Ukraine.
    Mr. Meuser. OK. There have been 46 indicted--war criminals 
indicted by the International Criminal Court. The last was 
Mahamat Said Abdel Kani, a militia commander from the Central 
African Republic. Would the process for criminalizing that 
individual be the same as you are going to proceed for Vladimir 
Putin? Is it a similar model?
    Mr. Carpenter. So that is a little bit outside my lane 
because that pertains to the ICC, but my understanding is that 
the general process of holding individuals accountable for 
violations of international humanitarian law and international 
human rights law would be analogous to previous cases that have 
been brought.
    Mr. Meuser. Who would have the opportunity to arrest, if 
you will, Vladimir Putin?
    Mr. Carpenter. Well, that is obviously a very, very tricky 
question. I think it is hard to envisage that President Putin 
would travel outside of the Russian Federation to a 
jurisdiction where national authorities would choose to 
exercise an arrest warrant, especially so long as he is head of 
State. So it is a conundrum, frankly. But if one looks at the 
long term, there are plenty of examples of former leaders who 
have been held accountable at the end of the day, usually after 
they have fallen from power, for their crimes.
    Mr. Meuser. All right. Thank you.
    I yield back, chairman.
    Chairman Keating. Thank you very much.
    The chair now recognizes Representative Schneider for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. Schneider. I was having difficulties.
    Ambassador, can you hear me now?
    Mr. Carpenter. I can hear you, yes.
    Mr. Schneider. OK. I apologize for not being on 
microphones. Anyway, I want to thank you for all of your work, 
but in particular for sharing your work with the committee 
today.
    And I want to thank the chairman for organizing this 
critically important hearing.
    One of the things is you mentioned in the report that it 
covered the first 5 weeks of the war. The war has obviously 
been going on much longer and is likely to continue for a 
extended period of time. And you indicated that the pattern of 
abuse has continued, the pattern of apparent war crimes. Has 
that continued at the same pace as what you were seeing in the 
first 5 weeks or do you think it has expanded dramatically and 
that the pace, scope, breadth, and depth of war crimes is 
increasing?
    Mr. Carpenter. Well, thank you for the question. It is hard 
to say because my information is obviously limited, but we 
obviously saw those dramatic and horrifying images from the 
northern suburbs of Kiev where Russian forces retreated and as 
soon as the Ukrainians had access to that land, they found all 
the bodies in the mass graves that indicated that war crimes 
had been committed.
    My understanding based on the utter devastation that has 
been affected upon the city of Mariupol, which was a city with 
a population of some roughly 430,000 people prior to the war, 
and the fact that over 90 percent of the buildings there are 
destroyed in some way, that the atrocities that are likely to 
be discovered once the international community or once Ukraine 
gets access to that city and to that territory are likely to be 
horrendous and just the scale will be immense. So if anything, 
I suspect there may have been an acceleration of these forms of 
atrocities.
    Mr. Schneider. Yes, I think that is the concern of the 
world. And one of the things--my concern is that the news--
Ukraine has dominated the news for an extended period now, but 
other things happen around the world. What can OSCE, the United 
States do to help steel the resolve of the international 
community to make sure as you are collecting this data and 
evidence of war crimes that we are going to signal to the 
Russians that they are not going to outlast us and we will hold 
them to account, not just for actions for the first 5 weeks, or 
for 3 months, or the war, but throughout their campaign?
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes, so thank you so much for that question 
because that is what we are trying to do every week here at the 
OSCE. We have the Permanent Council, which is the equivalent of 
the U.N. Security Council for the OSCE where all 57 
participating States sit at the table. And each and every week 
I specifically talk about Russian atrocities in Ukraine and I 
try to bring them to light and I try to also impress upon my 
counterparts around the table the extent to which we are 
witnessing something that we have--the scale and scope of which 
and the barbarity of which we have not seen since really the 
Second World War, although to a certain extent we saw some of 
this in the 1990's in the Former Yugoslavia or in Rwanda. And 
my colleagues, especially from our allies and like-minded 
partners, are making the same case each and every week.
    So the Russian representative, the Russian ambassador is 
hearing this every week. And he is isolated with the one 
exception of Belarus. Russia and Belarus are completely 
isolated at the OSCE because all other States--some are silent 
and do not speak, but all those who do speak condemn these 
atrocities in no uncertain terms and demand accountability.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you. I think it is important that we 
continue to condemn these atrocities and hold all of our allies 
strongly together on this.
    It is not just the violent crimes we are seeing like in 
Mariupol and other places. Russia is weaponizing its energy 
supplies and threatening Europe. I had a meeting yesterday with 
the Prime Minister of Bulgaria, one of the countries where 
Russia has specifically targeted.
    My question, specific to Bulgaria, but also more broadly, 
is what can the OSCE do to help dampen the threat and diminish 
the challenge to member States from Russia's illegal use of 
food and oil, but in particular oil and gas, as a weapon?
    Mr. Carpenter. Thank you for the question. So of course 
Russia has used energy as a tool of political coercion for 
decades, using its--the power of its pipelines and the fact 
that so many countries in particularly Eastern Europe, but some 
in the Balkans and Western Europe, are dependent to a large 
degree on Russian hydrocarbons.
    While this is within the OSCE mandate, the OSCE is probably 
not the lead organization that is looking at this issue. But I 
can say as a representative of the United States that--I mean 
this is something that we have been talking to our partners and 
allies about for a long time. And where we have supported the 
construction of the infrastructure in Europe to include, for 
example floating LNG terminals, inter-connector pipelines 
particularly on the north-south axis, that would enable reverse 
flows and enable some of the countries that are so dependent, 
sometimes 80, 90, even 100 percent dependent on Russian gas to 
wean themselves off of that dependency and to use other sources 
and other transport routes.
    And so our Energy Bureau at the State Department has been 
heavily involved with this and will continue to be because now 
is the moment where I think some of those allies that perhaps 
knew this was a problem--now it is really hitting home that 
this is existential.
    Mr. Schneider. Thank you. And I am not sure how much time I 
have left, but I would like to yield what time I do have to 
spare to my colleague Abigail Spanberger from Virginia.
    Chairman Keating. The chair recognizes Representative 
Spanberger, and she will now chair just until I commit the--
finish this vote and come back.
    Ms. Spanberger. Thank you so much. And again, Mr. 
Ambassador, thank you for your patience as we continue to make 
sure that we are getting all of our votes in in this 23-vote 
series while also ensuring that we can ask many questions given 
your expertise.
    So I want to do a little bit more followup on a line of 
questioning that I was going down before related to social 
media companies, related to the challenges that we face in 
terms of when they are pulling down disinformation and what 
might potentially be evidence of war crimes.
    Some of my colleagues--and certainly in the first round of 
questions we have talked about how there are some pros and cons 
obviously to modern technology, and social media more 
specifically when it comes to documenting war crimes. And when 
we look at Russia, we have really seen a professionalization of 
disinformation, false narratives, certainly we saw that the 
U.S. intelligence community had released information before 
Russia even invaded to speak to the fact that there was an 
intent to potentially release a doctored video that could be 
cause or an excuse for an alternate Russian invasion.
    And so when we are looking at how the Russians in 
particular obscure truth, misdirects global attention, and of 
course engage in strong disinformation campaigns, even here, 
where do you think that social media companies might have a 
role in again going back to sort of preserving the evidentiary 
record of war crimes, but of disinformation campaigns that 
frankly could lead us on a path toward war crimes, or the 
responsibilities that they might have to remove or curate 
misinformation and help their users separate actual truth from 
clear lies? And I am thinking about this in the context of 
course as Congress continues to determine what we potentially 
could be doing long term. Your comments on this, sir, would be 
great.
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes, thank you, Congresswoman. So with 
regards to the role of social media companies in curating, as 
you noted, misinformation, that's probability a little bit 
outside my lane, but what I will say is that a lot of these 
social media companies have the big data analytics to be able 
to do investigations and pull the threads on some of the 
evidence that may be coming out of Ukraine by individuals from 
Russia or potentially elsewhere, mercenaries on the ground to 
be able to help identify and then also implicate others.
    And so they have unique capabilities in this regard 
probably matched only by the U.S. Government and a few other 
States, but they can certainly support efforts to identify 
individuals involved in potential war crimes. And we have seen 
NGO's with remarkable capabilities. I am thinking of 
Bellingcat, but there are others: the Atlantic Council's 
Digital Research Lab, amongst others, that have really done 
phenomenal work in pulling the thread on some of these obscure 
social media posts that then have revealed quite a lot about 
what is happening on the ground.
    Ms. Spanberger. Thank you very much, Mr. Ambassador.
    And while I could continue asking you questions all 
afternoon, I am going to yield back to the chairman and go vote 
and return. Thank you.
    Chairman Keating. Thank you, vice chairman.
    And I just want to let the Ambassador know (inaudible) 
effort of so many members and the interest in this today given 
the unexpected volume of folks in the middle of this hearing. 
Now I will just recognize myself for a few questions as well.
    You mentioned the systematic nature of things in terms of 
these atrocities and how that can be termed and categorized as 
crimes versus humanity. And you mentioned that it could be--
then if it qualifies for that, the Russian Federation itself 
can be held accountable. Can you describe how that process 
works and what are the repercussions of the Russian Federation 
being held accountable in that process?
    Mr. Carpenter. Well, thank you, chairman, for the question. 
Crimes against humanity is one of those terms that is so 
evocative because of recent history of the past century. And so 
when a finding is made by a credible international institution, 
an impartial international institution that crimes against 
humanity were committed, I think that strongly aids the efforts 
to find individuals accountable for violations of the Geneva 
Conventions or other war crimes because it tarnishes the 
reputation of the State essentially forever. I mean, States 
change and government come and go, but that is such a powerful 
tool that I think we should not discount it.
    Of course Russia is a large country with a large military, 
but nevertheless having that designation would be a very 
powerful signal, and especially to those countries on Russia's 
periphery, some of whom are afraid of what the Kremlin might do 
next and therefore reluctant to speak out, but also countries 
elsewhere around the world, some of which are U.S. partners who 
are reluctant to speak out against what Russia is doing. But if 
we had that designation that crimes against humanity had been 
perpetrated, I think that would be very powerful in terms of 
rallying our international allies and partners together.
    Chairman Keating. And you also mentioned, too, in your 
testimony how different leaders--these are civic leaders, 
mayors, activists at the local level, and religious leaders you 
mentioned, too, and we noticed the support for this war on 
behalf of the Russian Orthodox leader himself.
    So could you tell us, if you could, what religious leaders 
have been targeted for these atrocities as well or put into 
filtration camps or faced any other kind of Russian action?
    Mr. Carpenter. Well, thank you, chairman. So in the city of 
Kharkiv, which is one of the largest Russian-speaking cities in 
the world, which has suffered so much from Russian aerial and 
missile bombardment over the course of the last 10 weeks, we 
have seen that the--one of the major Orthodox churches there 
has been hit with a strike. I believe the synagogue, or it may 
be more than one, has been targeted with a strike. And the 
mosque in that city has also been targeted with a strike.
    So again, Russia is--the scale of the devastation is such 
that is affecting many different faith communities across 
Ukraine, which of course is a very diverse and multiethnic 
society. But we have also received reports that some priests, 
including Orthodox priests, are indeed subject to these 
filtration camps. Again, there we have less information, but I 
think as more comes to light we will learn that many indeed 
religious figures have been detained by Russian forces in 
Ukraine.
    Chairman Keating. And given some of the rhetoric that has 
come out of the Russian Federation in terms of the 
justification for the war and some of the religious tenets that 
some of the Russian Orthodox leaders have done in terms of 
attacking the LGBTQ community, have you found any evidence to 
date that the LGBTQ community has been targeted by the Russians 
with some of these atrocities or if they are placing them in 
detention or filtration camps?
    Mr. Carpenter. Well, we did have information prior to 
February 24 and we assessed that the LGBTQ community would be 
potentially targeted by Russian forces following an invasion. 
Now the members of the community are not always very visible 
for obvious reasons. They are worried about their safety. And 
so we have limited information. But unfortunately we do have 
some reports that some of the sexually based violence which has 
been perpetrated against both women and men has also been 
perpetrated against members of that community.
    Chairman Keating. And does that include boys and children 
as well? That is my understanding.
    Mr. Carpenter. Indeed, yes, there are reports.
    Chairman Keating. Just looking at a parallel for Russian 
activity, too, I believe you are aware of their actions in 
Syria where they targeted health care facilities and did these 
civilian targets, but I recall in Syria just the targeting of 
hospitals and medical facilities, how significant that was and 
extensive. Can you comment on the parallels that might be there 
in Ukraine as well?
    Mr. Carpenter. Indeed. Well, of course it is very difficult 
to prove at this stage of the war that certain facilities were 
deliberately targeted. Nevertheless, despite the high bar for 
making that determination the Moscow Mechanism report that I 
referenced in my introductory statement did find that that 
Mariupol Children's and Maternity Hospital was in fact 
deliberately targeted by Russian forces.
    And in the days following the strike Foreign Minister 
Lavrov of Russia said that it was a legitimate target because 
he believed that there were--I forget if he used the term Neo-
Nazis or Nationalists because Russian officials use those terms 
interchangeably, but that they were hiding supposedly, 
allegedly in the basement of that hospital. And subsequent to 
that of course; and the OSCE experts determined this, there is 
absolutely no credibility to that claim whatsoever. There were 
indeed women and children in that hospitals, hundreds of them, 
who suffered horribly as a result of that strike.
    Chairman Keating. And also I think to help summarize some 
of this, the strategic failure of the Russians and the 
frustration, although we did see these war crimes at the outset 
of this, but are they indicative and can you comment on really 
the strategic failure thus far of this Russian effort?
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes. So it appears that, from the planning 
at least, that the Russian forces were intent on a shock and 
awe campaign that would have decapitated the Ukrainian 
government in Kiev in short order, in a matter perhaps even of 
days and that they were so confident that they would be greeted 
by some of the local residents across Ukraine when they marched 
in that their planning in terms of, for example the amounts of 
food that they brought with them was wholly insufficient for 
the operation. Of course they failed. They lost the battle of 
Kiev. The Ukrainians won. They pushed them back across the 
border.
    But the Russians have a numeric superiority over the 
Ukrainian army, both in terms of troops, but also in terms of 
tanks, in terms of aircraft, ships, rocket launchers, missiles, 
all of that. And so now that the Russians forces have regrouped 
and reattacked in the south and east, the Ukrainians are going 
to face and are facing a very, very stiff battle and a huge 
challenge to their sovereignty.
    But so far yes, the Russian operation has been--has not 
achieved President Putin's aims, which were to subordinate 
Ukraine to Russian control.
    Chairman Keating. I think to myself with so many people 
that their actions clearly are indicative of a State-sponsored 
terrorism. And there is much discussion about that issue, but 
one of the things I see now and am learning about; perhaps you 
could help us, is indeed that designation at this juncture 
could actually limit some of our options. Are you familiar with 
how that could actually limit at this juncture some of our 
options?
    Mr. Carpenter. Well, so I answered this question, chairman, 
with regards to one of your colleagues on the subcommittee. You 
may have been voting at the time. So my understanding is that 
in contrast to war crimes, crimes against humanity, and 
violations of international humanitarian law and human rights 
law, which are matters of international law, the designation of 
a State as a State-sponsored terrorism is something that is 
done by the United States under domestic statute and so not be 
pursued at the OSCE together with other allies are partners. It 
would be a determination made by the legal advisor at the State 
Department based upon a careful review of the definition that 
is contained in that statute.
    Now I am not an international lawyer, so I won't comment on 
it, but I will----
    Chairman Keating. Ambassador, I think you helped explain 
this.
    Mr. Carpenter. Yes.
    Chairman Keating. I think there is perhaps less flexibility 
and certainly less impact going our own domestic law, not that 
that cannot be done in future, but it might inhibit or go in a 
different direction than our international efforts with our 
international allies. I think that is something we are looking 
at as we look at that issue as well.
    And last, there has been much talk already about the use of 
energy and how brutally that is being done and what is the 
impact of what they are doing on food supplies. I honestly 
believe the amount of casualties as a result of Russia's 
action, limiting food supplies, which they are well aware of, 
may result in more deaths than the war itself as things spread 
into the fall and this becomes more acute.
    I do not know if you wanted to comment on the devastating 
effects of Putin's actions on our--the food supply of the 
world. Forty percent of fertilizers come from Belarus and 
Russia, and indeed Ukraine and Russia are the breadbasket of 
much of the world. This could indeed be one of the greatest 
evil actions of Putin of all. Could you comment on that?
    Mr. Carpenter. Indeed. Well, I think Russia's actions to 
blockade Ukraine's ports both in the Sea of Azov and the Black 
Sea are having a devastating impact on global food security and 
the blame has to be place squarely at Russia's feet because it 
is the one that is preventing these foodstuffs from getting out 
to markets around the world.
    Ukraine is the No. 1 global producer of sunflower oil. They 
produce a lot of wheat. They produce a lot of other grains. As 
you mentioned, chair, they are considered one of the major 
breadbaskets in the world. And their harvests are sitting in 
storage facilities across Ukraine and are not getting out from 
those ports like Mariupol, or Berdiansk, or Odessa because 
Russian forces, and specifically the Black Sea fleet, is 
blocking any ship, whether it is a State-owned vessel or a 
commercial vessel, from leaving any of those ports. And so a 
lot of that grain and those oils are being--are trapped there 
in Ukraine as a result of this war.
    Chairman Keating. And I have one more comment and I might 
have turn it over to vote before we conclude, but it is the 
issue that people should be aware of I think in terms of the 
oil and gas imports with Europe. If that was an immediate 
shutdown--this is something I understand has to be calibrated. 
If it was an immediate effort to shut that down, that could 
affect supply and actually in a short term give Putin more 
profit right now for his war efforts. Is that your 
understanding?
    Mr. Carpenter. That is indeed my understanding and I 
believe that European Union leaders including Ursula von der 
Leyen and council president Charles Michel have said that when 
they look at measures to impose costs on Russia, we would have 
to be cognizant that we--that they not hurt their own economies 
more than they hurt Russia's. And so that should be an 
operating principle going forward.
    Chairman Keating. Thank you for that. I just want to thank 
you for--and I want to thank the vice chair for getting through 
this. It is so important and it is extraordinary the bipartisan 
participation we had in the midst of this. It is highly unusual 
and it really goes to how important this is. I want to thank 
you and I want to ask you if we can continue. We want to 
continue on this issue with war crimes as it--on a continuing 
basis. And thank you for your cooperation.
    And with that, members will have 5 days to submit 
statements or extraneous material, any questions for the record 
subject to the length and limitation of the rules.
    I want to thank again all the members.
    And I want to thank you, Ambassador, for your service to 
our country and for taking this issue one particularly. It is 
something we want to join you in your efforts as Members of 
Congress.
    With that, I will call this hearing adjourned. Thank you 
again.
    [Whereupon, at 3:41 p.m, the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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