[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]




 
 AN UNENDING CRISIS: ESSENTIAL STEPS TO REDUCING GUN VIOLENCE AND MASS 
                               SHOOTINGS

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                   SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM,
                         AND HOMELAND SECURITY

                                 OF THE

                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                         THURSDAY, MAY 20, 2021

                               __________

                           Serial No. 117-23

                               __________

         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
         
         
         
         
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]         



               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
               
               
               
                           ______

             U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 
 46-141               WASHINGTON : 2021                
               
               
                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY

                    JERROLD NADLER, New York, Chair
                MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania, Vice-Chair

ZOE LOFGREN, California              JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Ranking Member
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas            STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee               LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,      DARRELL ISSA, California
    Georgia                          KEN BUCK, Colorado
THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida          MATT GAETZ, Florida
KAREN BASS, California               MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana
HAKEEM S. JEFFRIES, New York         ANDY BIGGS, Arizona
DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island     TOM McCLINTOCK, California
ERIC SWALWELL, California            W. GREGORY STEUBE, Florida
TED LIEU, California                 TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin
JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland               THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky
PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington          CHIP ROY, Texas
VAL BUTLER DEMINGS, Florida          DAN BISHOP, North Carolina
J. LUIS CORREA, California           MICHELLE FISCHBACH, Minnesota
MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania       VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
SYLVIA R. GARCIA, Texas              SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
JOE NEGUSE, Colorado                 CLIFF BENTZ, OREGON
LUCY McBATH, Georgia                 BURGESS OWENS, Utah
GREG STANTON, Arizona
VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
MONDAIRE JONES, New York
DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
CORI BUSH, Missouri

       PERRY APELBAUM, Majority Staff Director and Chief Counsel
               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Minority Staff Director
                                 ------                                

        SUBCOMMITTEE ON CRIME, TERRORISM, AND HOMELAND SECURITY

                 SHEILA JACKSON LEE, California, Chair
                    CORI BUSH, Missouri, Vice-Chair

KAREN BASS, California               ANDY BIGGS, Arizona, Ranking 
VAL DEMINGS, Florida                     Member
LUCY McBATH, Georgia                 STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania         LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas
MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania       W. GREGORY STEUBE, Florida
DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island        TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin
TED LIEU, California                 THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky
LOU CORREA, California               VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana
VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas              SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin
STEVE COHEN, Tennessee               BURGESS OWENS, Utah

                   JOE GRAUPENSPERGER, Chief Counsel
                    JASON CERVENAK, Minority Counsel
                    
                            C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              

                         Thursday, May 20, 2021

                                                                   Page

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

The Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, Chair of the Subcommittee on 
  Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security from the State of Texas     2
The Honorable Andy Biggs, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on 
  Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security from the State of 
  Arizona........................................................     4
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Chair of the Committee on the 
  Judiciary from the State of New York...........................     6
The Honorable Jim Jordan, Ranking Member of the Committee on the 
  Judiciary from the State of Ohio...............................    13

                               WITNESSES

The Honorable Vikki Goodwin, Member of the House of 
  Representatives, State of Texas
  Oral Testimony.................................................    15
  Prepared Statement.............................................    18
Fred Guttenberg, Author and Gun Safety Advocate
  Oral Testimony.................................................    21
  Prepared Statement.............................................    23
Dianna Muller, Founder, The DC Project
  Oral Testimony.................................................    26
  Prepared Statement.............................................    28
Michael E. Grady, Senior Pastor, Prince of Peace Christian 
  Fellowship
  Oral Testimony.................................................    41
  Prepared Statement.............................................    43
J. Adam Skaggs, Chief Counsel and Policy Director, Giffords Law 
  Center to Prevent Gun Violence
  Oral Testimony.................................................    46
  Prepared Statement.............................................    48

           STATEMENTS, LETTERS, MATERIALS, ARTICLES SUBMITTED

A letter from Linda Beigel Schulman, submitted by the Honorable 
  Jerrold Nadler, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary from 
  the State of New York for the record...........................    10
An article entitled ``Safe-Storage Gun Laws: Accidental Deaths, 
  Suicides, and Crime,'' The Journal of Law and Economics, 
  submitted by the Honorable Thomas Massie, a Member of the 
  Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security from 
  the State of Kentucky for the record...........................    78
An article entitled ``Gun massacres fell during the assault 
  weapons ban,'' Washington Post, submitted by the Honorable 
  David Cicilline, a Member of the Subcommittee on Crime, 
  Terrorism, and Homeland Security from the State of Rhode Island 
  for the record.................................................   108
An article entitled ``Fact check: AR-15 style rifles used in 11 
  mass shootings since 2012,'' USA Today, submitted by the 
  Honorable David Cicilline, a Member of the Subcommittee on 
  Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security from the State of Rhode 
  Island for the record..........................................   112
Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Ranking Member 
  of the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security 
  from the State of Arizona for the record
  An article entitled ``In These 11 Cases, a Firearm Saved the 
    Owner or Others,'' May 11th, 2021............................   124
  An article entitled ``These 11 Incidents Underscore Outrage of 
    Biden's Slap in Face to Gun Owners,'' April 15th, 2021.......   128
  An article entitled ``These 11 Examples of Defensive Gun Use 
    Undermine Push for More Gun Control,'' March 10th, 2021......   132
  An article entitled ``11 Times a Gun Stopped Matters From 
    Getting Worse,'' February 17th, 2021.........................   136
  An article entitled ``Undetectable Firearms,'' NSSF Fast Fact..   140
  An article entitled ``Another Ban on `High-Capacity' 
    Magazines?'' NSSF Fast Fact..................................   144
  An article entitled ``That Time The CDC Asked About Defensive 
    Gun Uses,'' April 30, 2018...................................   146
Items submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, Chair of the 
  Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security from 
  State of Texas for the record
  Statement from Moms Demand Action..............................   156
  A study entitled ``Majority of Americans, Including Gun Owners, 
    Support a Variety of Gun Policies,'' John Hopkins............   162

                                APPENDIX

Items submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, Ranking Member of 
  the Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism, and Homeland Security 
  State from the State of Arizona for the record
  An article entitled ``Priorities for Research to Reduce the 
    Threat of Firearm-Related Violence,'' (Uncorrected Proofs), 
    The National Academies Press.................................   168
  Statement from American College of Physicians (ACP)............   282
  Congressional statement from Suzanna Gratia Hupp, submitted by 
    Dianna Muller, Founder, The DC Project.......................   286
  Senate statement from Suzanna Gratia Hupp, DC, submitted by 
    Dianna Muller, Founder, The DC Project.......................   290
  An article entitled ``Forum: Doing Less Harm,'' Harvard 
    Magazine.....................................................   294


                  AN UNENDING CRISIS: ESSENTIAL STEPS

                      TO REDUCING GUN VIOLENCE AND

                             MASS SHOOTINGS

                              ----------                              


                         Thursday, May 20, 2021

                        House of Representatives

                   Subcommittee on Crime, Terrorism,

                         and Homeland Security

                       Committee on the Judiciary

                             Washington, DC

    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:13 a.m., in 
Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Sheila Jackson 
Lee [chair of the subcommittee] presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Nadler, Jackson Lee, 
Demings, McBath, Dean, Scanlon, Cicilline, Escobar, Cohen, 
Jordan, Biggs, Chabot, Gohmert, Steube, Tiffany, Massie, 
Spartz, and Owens.
    Staff present: David Greengrass, Senior Counsel; John Doty, 
Senior Advisor; Moh Sharma, Member Services and Outreach 
Advisor; Cierra Fontenot, Chief Clerk; John Williams, 
Parliamentarian; Ben Hernandez-Stern, Counsel; Joe 
Graupensperger, Chief Counsel; Veronica Eligan, Legislative 
Aide/Professional Staff Member; Jason Cervenak, Minority Chief 
Counsel for Crime; Ken David, Minority Counsel; Andrea Woodard, 
Minority Professional Staff Member; and Kiley Bidelman, 
Minority Clerk.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The Subcommittee will come to order. 
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare recesses 
of the Subcommittee at any time.
    We welcome everyone to this morning's hearing, ``An 
Unending Crisis: Essential Steps to Reducing Gun Violence and 
Mass Shootings.''
    Before we begin, I would like to remind Members that we 
have established an email address and distributions list 
dedicated to circulating exhibits, motions, or other written 
materials that Members might want to offer as part of our 
hearing today. If you would like to submit materials, please 
send them to the email address that has been previously 
distributed to your offices and we will circulate the materials 
to Members and staff as quickly as we can.
    I would also ask all Members to mute your microphones when 
you are not speaking. This will help prevent feedback and other 
technical issues. You may unmute yourself any time you seek 
recognition and as well when you are speaking you may not have 
your mask.
    I will now recognize myself for an ongoing of this hearing 
for an opening statement. We are here today on May 20, 2021 
when throughout America, states have rates of death by guns of 
12, 15, 22 percent of our population. America still remains as 
a battlefront of guns.
    The State of Texas, the governor just signed a permitless 
law that anyone without the permission of that business, that 
church, that doctor's office, that school, at least perceived 
by the public, whatever fine points have been made, the public 
doesn't read it. They just say it is a free for all. In the 
backdrop of the tragedy of El Paso, 22 of our fellow Texans 
were killed because someone said they didn't like Mexicans.
    So, today, the Subcommittee turns to the all-too-
commonplace tragedy that is gun violence. The time since our 
Committee last held a hearing focused on gun violence, many 
more Americans' lives have been heartbreakingly and 
unnecessarily lost to gunfire. Current circumstances have 
exacerbated the problem. During the pandemic gun sales have 
surged, with more children at home with firearms that have not 
been properly secured.
    As late or as many years back, I served on the Houston City 
Council. The first gun law they ever past were the requirement 
that parents would be responsible for securing their guns 
because two-year-olds were being shot by guns that they found 
in the home.
    On top of these frightening dynamics, there have been an 
uptick in firearm-fueled violent crime that has left families 
and communities torn and afraid. Statistics are sobering. On 
average, 316 people are shot every day with over 100 killed and 
64 dying by suicide. What about a city that lives through 
drive-by shootings, rage on the road? They don't wave their 
fists. They shoot out the window. They shoot seven-year-olds, 
two-year-olds, elderly persons, mothers, fathers, and families.
    While official numbers have not been compiled, once they 
found a gun homicide, the non-suicide related shooting took 
approximately 19,000 lives, a 25 percent increase from 2019. 
Texas had over 3,000 deaths.
    The same study on gun deaths estimates that likely exceeded 
40,000. This grim number would mean that 2020 had the highest 
rate of gun deaths in the last two decades. Each one of these 
deaths leaves a hole in the fabric of their family and 
community, and particularly our children.
    As with so many other tragedies, children often bear the 
brunt of gun violence. On a daily basis, eight children are 
victims of family fire due to an improperly stored or misused 
gun in their home.
    Today, guns account for half of all suicide deaths. That 
should appall us so much. In the majority of children's gun 
suicides, the guns were stored in the child's place of 
residence or the residence of a relative or friend. Yes, child 
suicides were done.
    We cannot allow this to continue in our country. That is 
why safe storage of guns is critical to our public safety and 
why I introduced the Kimberly Vaughan Firearm Safe Storage Act. 
My bill would regulate the proper storage of firearms and 
ammunition for residences with children under the age of 18 or 
a residence with a person who is ineligible to own a firearm. I 
hope Members will join me and cosponsor this live-saving 
legislation, and I hope Members from both sides of the aisle.
    I also hope that Members of this Committee will answer 
President Biden's call to address community violence through 
intervention and help infrastructure investment. We are 
delighted that this Congress voted to allow the Centers for 
Disease Control to establish gun violence as a national health 
issue.
    We must pursue creative solutions to the problem of gun 
violence on our streets and in our neighborhoods and in every 
part of this country in all too frequent basis. Another threat 
to our communities that we will discuss today is ghost guns. 
Ghost guns are firearms constructed with component parts that 
can be obtained anonymously without a background check and lack 
serial numbers. Ghost guns are essentially untraceable. The 
absence of a manufacturing record, serial number, or background 
check is essentially exactly what makes them the perfect guns 
to commit crimes. These weapons, ghost guns, pose a new and 
growing threat to the safety of our brave men and women of law 
enforcement.
    I didn't State earlier that the Texas law enforcement were 
against permitless guns. I think if you are for law 
enforcement, you have to be for law enforcement.
    Increasingly gangs, drug dealers, and other nefarious 
individuals are assembling their own untraceable firearms for 
their illicit activity. In 2020 alone, the Los Angeles Police 
Department recovered more than 600 ghost guns, at least 231 of 
which were used in serious or violent crimes such as murder, 
attempted murder, and kidnapping, and 145 of which were 
recovered from felons who are prohibited from owning or 
possessing guns. Ghost guns are a clear and present threat to 
public safety, and it is imperative that we take action now. We 
cannot continue to live in a society where you could be a 
victim to gun violence just by going to the school, the movies, 
the musical festivals, and even grocery shopping.
    I am committed to ending the scourge of gun violence in 
this country and for many who are in this room, some of us were 
here as Columbine hit the Nation and the commitment then was to 
stop gun violence. We must do more to address what is an issue 
of life and death for far too many Americans. We must complete 
this work and we have started on legislation that we know will 
work.
    Therefore, I call on the Senate to now pass the bipartisan 
background check and Charleston loophole bills, passed out of 
this House under the leadership of Chair Nadler. I urge the 
Senate to pass the Violence Against Women Act, which contains a 
provision that would bar the use of a firearm for those who are 
convicted of a misdemeanor stalking. I am glad to co-lead that 
bill as it came out of this committee.
    At the same time, we in the House must consider additional 
legislation to provide commonsense solutions to the scourge of 
gun violence and suicides. That is why our discussion will be 
so important today. This discussion, Members, and I thank you 
for your presence here, should be a call to action and a call 
to do. We must do and we have to do it now.
    I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on these 
critical issues and it certainly is my pleasure now to 
recognize the Ranking Member's opening statement. Mr. Biggs, 
you are recognized for your time.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Good morning.
    Mr. Biggs. Good morning to you. Thank you very much. I 
express my sincerest condolences to those present who have lost 
a loved one to a senseless act of violence.
    I hope today we can have an open and honest dialogue about 
the firearms my colleagues wish to prohibit law-abiding 
Americans from possessing. I hope we can avoid any inaccuracy, 
mischaracterization, and outright falsehoods that have plagued 
this dialogue for decades actually.
    Unfortunately, many in the American public, the media, and 
shockingly, this very body, regularly engage in the peddling of 
inaccuracies. Earlier this year, one member of this Committee 
who is the lead sponsor of the so-called assault weapon ban 
conflated the terms of assault rifle and assault weapon 
multiple times in the Dear Colleague letter seeking support for 
the bill.
    Assault rifles are rapid magazine-fed rifles designed for 
military use. They are shoulder-fired weapons that allow the 
shooter to select between settings semi-automatic and fully 
automatic which allows the operator to hold the trigger as the 
gun fires continuously or in three-shot bursts. Assault rifles 
are subject to regulation under the National Firearms Act and 
as such, they are functionally illegal and rarely used in 
crimes. Assault weapons, on the other hand, have been defined 
in statute and legislation as semi-automatic firearms.
    A year ago, a member of this Committee said just outside 
this hearing room that ``I have held an AR-15 in my hand. I 
wish I hadn't. It is as heavy as ten boxes that you might be 
moving and the bullet that is utilized, a .50 caliber, these 
kinds of bullets need to be licensed and do not need to be on 
the street.'' An AR-15 weighs between 6 and 7 pounds and fires 
a .223 or a 9-millimeter round of ammunition. It does not fire 
a .50 caliber ammunition.
    I would hope that these inaccuracies are just a case of 
Members not taking the time to educate themselves on these 
issues. I would note, however, the push to ban so-called 
assault weapons was borne of the idea to mislead Americans. In 
1988, the Violence Policy Center released a study entitled 
``Assault Weapons and Accessories in America.'' In it, they 
state, ``Assault weapons, just like armor-piercing bullets, 
machine guns, and plastic firearms are a new topic. The 
weapon's menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion 
over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault 
weapons, anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to 
be a machine gun can only increase the chance of public support 
for restrictions on these weapons.''
    Let's look at the statistics. In 2019, according to the 
FBI, there were 364 murders committed with all rifles, not just 
those deemed to be some assault weapons. By comparison, knives 
or other cutting instruments were used in 1,476 murders. Blunt 
objects such as clubs, hammers, and bats were used in 397 
murders. Hands and feet were used in 600 murders.
    The fact is that so-called assault weapons and high-
capacity magazines have been used often in self-defense 
situations. The Supreme Court of the United States has 
recognized the right to self-defense. In the District of 
Columbia v. Heller, the court ruled that the inherent right of 
self-defense has been central to the Second amendment right 
which is the individualized right to possess and carry weapons 
in case of confrontation, including all instruments that 
constitute bearable arms.
    Steven Willeford and his AR-15 helped stop the deadliest 
mass shooting in Texas history in 2017. Mr. Willeford was able 
to confront and shoot Devin Kelley who had just fatally shot 26 
people in the First Baptist Church in Sutherland Springs, 
Texas. After Mr. Willeford pursued and shot Kelley, Kelley 
ended up taking his own life. Mr. Willeford likely prevented 
further casualties and was hailed a hero by local law 
enforcement.
    Similarly, high-capacity magazines have played a role in 
self-defense. On April 15, 2018, a Glen St. Mary, Florida 
resident awoke at 4 a.m. to a home invasion that was motivated 
by an apparent Facebook dispute. Seven masked and armed 
individuals forced their way into a mobile home where one of 
the residents was armed with an AR-15. According to reports, 
the resident fired more than 30 rounds during the event which 
resulted in one home invader being killed, and others being 
wounded. These are just two of many examples of Americans 
exercising their constitutional rights to self-defense with 
assault weapons and high-capacity magazines.
    Further, the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act, 
Congress required the Justice Department to examine the effects 
of the assault weapons ban. The mandated study of the federal 
assault weapon and high-capacity ban concluded that ``the 
banned guns were never used in more than a modest fraction of 
all guns murders'' before the ban. The ban's ten round limit on 
new magazines was not a factor in multiple-victim or multiple-
wound crimes.
    A follow-up study in 2004 concluded that so-called assault 
weapons and high-capacity magazines were used in only a 
minority of gun crimes prior to the 1994 federal ban. 
Relatively few attacks involved more than ten shots fired and 
the ban's effects on gun violence are likely to be small at 
best and perhaps too small for a reliable measurement.
    Democrats would also like to implement red flags in the 
laws, known as extreme risk protection orders which allow law 
enforcement, family Members, or others with close relationships 
to the individual to petition a State court to temporarily 
remove firearms from the individual who they believe to present 
a danger to themselves or others. These laws trample on an 
individual's due process and Second amendment rights because 
they permit the seizure of an individual's firearm or 
ammunition before the individual is given an opportunity to be 
heard in court.
    Typically, to deny a fundamental constitutional right, an 
individual must be afforded notice and an opportunity to be 
heard and present evidence. What other constitutional rights 
are my Democrat colleagues willing to take away without due 
process? I urge my colleagues to learn more about the rights 
they are seeking to abridge.
    Finally, let's look at the Biden's Administration nominee 
to lead the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and 
Explosives, David Chipman. Since Mr. Chipman left ATF in 2012, 
he has made his money lobbying for failed gun control polices, 
first for Michael Bloomberg, and then for the Giffords Law 
Center. While at ATF, then Agent Chipman was the case agent for 
the Branch Davidian trial according to his biography that he 
submitted to this Committee last Congress.
    As I am sure everyone knows, 76 men, women, and children 
were killed in that botched raid. Years later, while pushing 
for more gun control, Mr. Chipman allegedly claimed, falsely 
claimed that Branch Davidian shot down two Texas Air National 
Guard helicopters with .50 caliber rounds during the 51-day 
siege. In two reports, one issued jointly by this Committee and 
the Committee on Government Reform and Oversight, and one 
issued solely by the Committee on Government Reform and 
Oversight, there is no mention of a single helicopter being 
downed.
    In the report to the Deputy Attorney General on the events 
at Waco, Texas, there is no mention of a helicopter being 
downed by any gunfire. It appears Mr. Chipman pulled this story 
out of thin air to justify gun control. The job of the ATF 
director is to enforce the laws Congress passes, this body 
passes, not from failed gun policies.
    Madam Chair, I do have a number of articles that I will 
submit into the record, but I don't want to further delay the 
start of this, so I am going to wait until the end, if that is 
all right with you, and I think it would be more convenient.
    With all due respect to you and your position as Chair of 
this Subcommittee and understanding that you are given wide 
latitude and I respect that latitude in our rules, I regret, 
however, to report that I have noticed a startling propensity 
for the Chair to take time after many of my Republican 
colleagues, a period of questioning and occasionally after the 
witnesses as well. I realize that you do have that great 
latitude that are given in the rules, but out of fairness, I 
request that if you do take that privilege that perhaps you 
would grant the member equal time for rebuttal or clarification 
related to the comments you make, or grant me time to comment 
on the statements and questions that are made by Democrats as 
well.
    With that, I do look forward to hearing from our witnesses 
today, a robust debate, and with that Madam Chair, I yield 
back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Will the gentleman yield?
    Mr. Biggs. Yes, I will yield to you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the gentleman for his inquiry and 
his comment. It is the prerogative of the Chair which I will 
continue with discretion to utilize, but as you recall in the 
last hearing we allowed you to have a response and I will 
continue to do so. Absolute inaccuracies sometimes require for 
a correction of the record, but the ranking will have an 
opportunity appropriately if that occurs to make a 
clarification as well. I thank you so very much for your 
generosity and your interest in this hearing and this topic.
    Mr. Biggs. Yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much. It is now my 
pleasure to recognize the Chair of the Judiciary Committee, Mr. 
Nadler, for his opening statement.
    Chair Nadler. Thank you very much. I thank Chair Jackson 
Lee for convening this hearing. I thank the witnesses for being 
here to inform this Committee on how we can develop additional 
solutions to promote firearm safety.
    For well over a year now, America has grappled with two 
public health crises, the COVID-19 pandemic, and an epidemic of 
gun violence. No place is immune from the effects of gun 
violence including our homes, streets, schools, and even our 
places of worship. The uncertainty of the pandemic has driven 
thousands of Americans to gun stores with record numbers of 
first-time buyers bringing firearms into their homes.
    The FBI background check system has been overwhelmed by the 
demand, delaying investigations, and resulting in potentially 
hundreds of thousands of people buying firearms without a 
completed background check. While every Nation has struggled 
with the effects of the pandemic, only one, United States, has 
had such an accompanying surge of gun violence.
    Even before COVID-19, a country-to-country comparison of 
gun violence was shocking. A recent study in the American 
Journal of Medicine found that compared to 29 other high-income 
countries, the gun related murder rate in the United States is 
25 times higher. Even when you adjust for population 
differences, Americans are disproportionately killed by gun 
violence.
    One of the critical differences, of course, is that other 
countries have stronger gun safety laws. The House has already 
passed two sensible firearm measures: Congressman Mike 
Thompson's bipartisan background check bill, and Majority Whip 
Clyburn's bill to help close the Charleston loophole. The House 
has done its part. Now, it's time for Senate Republicans to 
allow these bills to pass so that they may become law.
    Today, I hope this panel will examine another reasonable 
measure to prevent gun violence, extreme risk protection 
orders, or ERPOs. These laws allow law enforcement and 
depending on the jurisdiction, family Members, health 
professionals, and school administrators, to ask the court to 
prevent the person who is at risk of violence to self or to 
others from purchasing or possessing firearms. In ERPO 
hearings, law enforcement and family Members provide evidence 
in an ex parte proceeding during which a neutral federal judge 
weighs on whether a threat is imminent. Only if a finding of 
danger is made is a firearm owner temporarily deprived of their 
firearm.
    In California, one study found that extreme risk protection 
orders were issued in 21 instances where there is concern of a 
mass casualty event. These orders may have saved many lives.
    After Connecticut enacted an extreme risk protection order 
law, the State saw a 14 percent reduction in its firearm 
suicide rate. Indiana saw a seven and a half percent reduction 
in suicides in the ten years after it enacted its ERPO law. The 
data supports the expansion of ERPOs. We must take up 
legislation on the federal level and pass it now.
    Another item I hope the witnesses will discuss is ghost 
guns. These weapons are kits that are up to 80 percent 
complete, that can be finished at home. Sold as a do-it-
yourself project, ghost guns do not currently have serial 
numbers or require a background check. Over the last three 
years, ghost guns have flooded the streets and now they are the 
plurality of guns involving crimes in some jurisdictions. 
Because ghost guns do not have serial numbers, they are 
difficult to trace and make solving crime extremely 
challenging.
    The legislature in my home State of New York is in the 
midst of taking affirmative steps to address the proliferation 
of ghost guns. Just this week, the New York legislature is 
considering the Scott J. Beigel Unfinished Receiver Act which 
would make it a felony to own or possess unfinished receivers 
or ghost guns. This legislation has already passed the State 
Senate and the governor is expected to sign it. I support this 
effort and I hope that Congress can quickly move to address on 
a federal level the dangers that ghost guns present.
    Another urgent issue that we must address is the deadly 
toll of assault-style weapons. These firearms are designed 
specifically for offensive operations, killing the most people 
in the shortest period of time possible, which is why they are 
the weapon of choice for those perpetrating the highest 
casualty mass shootings. The list goes on and on: Sandy Hook, 
Las Vegas, El Paso, Dayton, Sutherland Springs, Aurora, 
Orlando, Parkland, and most recently, Boulder. Hundreds of 
lives ended by individual shooters with assault weapons with 
friends and family left to grieve and pick up the pieces. 
Victims of mass shootings and everyday gun violence alike have 
tried and failed to hold gun makers and distributors 
accountable in court.
    The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, the PLCAA, 
which was the top legislative priority to corporate gun 
industry, has allowed the gun industry to evade fundamental 
civil justice and accountability at the expense of victims of 
gun violence. We must repeal PLCAA's sweeping immunity from 
civil liability for the gun industry which must be held to 
account for negligent conduct, defective products, and 
otherwise irresponsible behavior. I ask you, what other 
industry in the United States enjoys sweeping immunity for 
civil liability for its negligent acts?
    As we consider these and other issues related to our crisis 
of gun violence, I thank the witnesses for coming today and 
again, I express my gratitude to Chair Sheila Jackson Lee for 
convening this hearing.
    Before I yield back, I ask for unanimous consent for a 
letter from Linda Beigel Schulman, a leading gun safety 
prevention advocate in my home State of New York, describing 
efforts in New York to address the proliferation of ghost guns 
to be entered into the record.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Without objection, Mr. Chair, so ordered.
    [The information follows:]



      

              MR. NADLER FOR THE RECORD

======================================================================

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    Chair Nadler. Thank you. I yield back the balance of my 
time.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. All right, thank you so very much for your 
testimony. I now recognize the distinguished Ranking Member of 
the Full Committee, the gentleman from Ohio, Mr. Jordan, for 
his opening statement.
    Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Madam Chair. I want to thank our 
witnesses for being here today and I, too, extend my 
condolences to the families of those who have lost loved ones.
    Think about what the Democrats want to do.
    Step one, defund the police. Democrats here in Congress and 
Democrat mayors around the country demonizing, demoralizing our 
law enforcement officers, and actually defunding police to the 
tune of over a billion dollars last year in all our major 
cities. What is the result of that? Crime is up in every major 
city.
    Step two, release violent offenders from our prisons. Last 
year, Chair Nadler introduced a bill to pay states and 
localities to empty their prisons and jails. The bill calls for 
the release of violent offenders from State prisons and local 
jails. Inmates were only deemed ineligible for release if they 
did ``not pose a risk of serious imminent injury to a 
reasonably-identified person.'' In other words, it was okay to 
release inmates as long as they didn't pose an immediate risk 
to a specific individual.
    Now, step three, now the third part. Take away guns from 
law-abiding Americans so they can't defend themselves. This 
hearing today and the numbers bills introduced by our Democrat 
colleagues make clear that they want to disarm law-abiding 
Americans by depriving them of their constitutional rights and 
none of these bills would have actually prevented any recent 
mass shooting.
    The Chair of the Full Committee just said in California, I 
think he said 21 cases where they had extreme protection orders 
where they took someone's firearms from them. He said that may 
have prevented crime. May have. We don't know. What we do know 
is 21 citizens were denied their Second Amendment liberties by 
a proceeding where they couldn't even attend because that is 
what these red-flag laws, these extreme protection orders do.
    The model legislation that Chair is talking about pays 
states to set up a system where anyone can go to a court and 
say I don't think so and so should have a firearm. There is a 
hearing where so and so, the one accused, the one who is going 
to lose their firearm, they don't even get to show up to the ex 
parte hearing. They don't even get to show up. Then they take 
their firearm and then they have to go to court to get their 
right back even though there was no proceeding where they could 
attend in the first place.
    The standard for all this is lower, a lower standard, a 
reasonable standard. This is a dangerous path they want to go 
down. So, I look forward to hearing from our witnesses, 
particularly the Republican witness. I am nervous about all the 
legislation being talked about on the other side. I hope we 
understand that the Second amendment is right next to the First 
because it is pretty darn important. Madam Chair, I yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman yields back. I thank him for 
his opening statement.
    We welcome all of our distinguished witnesses, and we thank 
them for their participation. I will begin by swearing in our 
witnesses. I ask our witnesses to turn on their audio and make 
sure I can see your face and raise your hand. Those who are in 
the room, please stand and raise your right hand.
    Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the 
testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best 
of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you God?
    I can hear the audio. Can I hear the audio of witnesses? 
Thank you so very much. You may be seated.
    Let the record show that the witnesses answered in the 
affirmative. Thank you.
    We will now proceed with witness introductions. It really 
is my privilege to introduce an outstanding legislator and 
someone who has impacted my community, even though she 
represents Austin because she has a strong and committed 
reputation for protecting the people of Texas.
    Representative Vikki Goodwin represents Texas House 
District 47 in the western and far south Travis County. That 
means she has some of Austin, Texas.
    Many people know of the great tech revolution in Austin. 
She was a co-author of landmark school finance reform which 
probably gives her a great sense of protecting children in the 
schoolhouse, as well as the law boosting retired teacher pay. 
Representative Goodwin is also a small business owner, a real 
estate broker, a mother, a graduate of the University of Texas, 
and she herself has confronted the evils of what a gun can do. 
I thank you so very much for being here today. Welcome.
    Fred Guttenberg, an author, and gun safety advocate. His 
14-year-old daughter, Jamie Guttenberg, was killed in the 
Stoneman Douglas High School shooting on February 14, 2018. His 
son, Jesse, was also a student at the school, ran from the 
shooting to meet him at a nearby store. In addition to his 
activism, he is a small businessman in Parkland, Florida. I 
will personally thank him in his loss for what he has continued 
to do for this nation. That should be part of your portfolio 
that you are, in fact, fighting for the survival of our nation. 
Thank you for being here today.
    Dianna Muller is a two-time national 3-gun champion and 
professional shooter. She is a retired 22-year veteran of the 
Tulsa Police Department, serving assignments in narcotics, 
gangs, street crimes, and patrol. She is also a law enforcement 
firearms instructor, a member of the NRA law enforcement 
Committee and a Subcommittee member of the Department of the 
Interior Hunting and Shooting Sports Conservation Council. Ms. 
Muller is the founder of the DC Project. Thank you for being 
here.
    Now, it is my privilege to be able to turn to my colleague 
from Texas, who herself has spent time as a new member in the 
midst of tragedy in her city of El Paso Texas, and I want to 
give her the privilege of introducing her constituent, Pastor 
Michael E. Grady.
    I yield to Congresswoman Escobar at this time.
    Ms. Escobar. Madam Chair, thank you so much. I am so 
grateful to be able to have the honor this morning to introduce 
my constituent, Pastor Michael Grady. Pastor Grady is a faith 
leader in El Paso at the Prince of Peace Christian Fellowship 
Church. His daughter, Michelle, was shot multiple times during 
the horrific El Paso terror attack in August 2019. Michelle 
survived, thank God, and spent 55 days in the hospital 
recovering. Since the incident, Pastor Grady has met with 
several people in his congregation who have also been affected 
by gun violence and he has been an important voice on this and 
a number of other significant national issues.
    Pastor Grady, thank you for being here.
    Madam Chair, I yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much. May I remind the 
gentleman, Congressman Massie, that in this room you must wear 
your masks, and thank you so very much for your courtesies of 
doing that. We appreciate that very much. Anyone else, you can 
remove your mask when you are speaking. Thank you so very much. 
I will get ready to speak, so I will remove this mask as I'm 
putting it back on.
    We have the privilege of having J. Adam Skaggs, and he has 
been just an established expert on really the responses to all 
of those who say why. He has been able to give us a credible 
and detailed response of why not. He does that, I know, because 
he is associated with our beloved colleague's law center, the 
Giffords Law Center. He is a Chief Counsel and Policy Director.
    Previously, he was Senior Counsel at Everytown for Gun 
Safety and at the Brennan Center for Justice, where he worked 
on election law issues.
    Mr. Skaggs, if you don't mind me at least taking note of 
Gabby Giffords and what her giant story has been able to do in 
setting up this law center, being a truth teller on gun 
violence and guns in America. You yourself was also a 
Litigation Associate at Paul, Weiss, Rifkind, Wharton & 
Garrison, and a law clerk at the 11th Circuit in the U.S. 
District Court in the Eastern District of New York. We welcome 
you.
    Please note that each of your written testimony statements 
will be entered into the record in its entirety. Let me say 
that votes have been called, but there are two votes. We're 
going to take one or two witnesses, and then recess Members so 
that we can vote in a recess and vote for the second vote and 
come back as quickly as possible. We may get through two 
witnesses. Staff is now trying to determine.
    Accordingly, I ask that you summarize your testimony in 
five minutes. There is a timer in the Zoom view that should be 
viable on your screen. Representative Goodwin, you may begin. 
Thank you again for being here. Welcome.

            STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE VIKKI GOODWIN

    Ms. Goodwin. Thank you, Chair Jackson Lee and Ranking 
Member Biggs.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. If you can turn your sound up, please. Can 
you turn your sound up?
    Ms. Goodwin. Is that better?
    Ms. Jackson Lee. A little better, thank you.
    Ms. Goodwin. Okay. Thank you, Chair Jackson Lee, Ranking 
Member Biggs, Chair Nadler, and Ranking Member Jordan. Thank 
you for the opportunity to testify before the Crime, Terrorism, 
and Homeland Security Subcommittee.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Would you suspend. Just suspend. We're 
trying to work on your sound here for a minute.
    Ms. Goodwin. Okay.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you, just a moment. Are we turned--
or should we? We'll just do one witness, Members, so please. 
Are we turning her back to five? Pardon me? All right.
    Representative, can you continue please, and thank you. 
Apologize for the technical.
    Ms. Goodwin. No problem. Again, thank you again, my name is 
Vikki Goodwin. I represent Texas House District 47.
    Firearm safety issues are deeply personal to me and are a 
focus of my legislative work. I am a gun violence survivor. 
When I was in my early twenties, my father was shot and killed 
in our home in Dallas. My father's death profoundly impacted me 
and gives me a tremendous empathy for others who have lost 
loved ones to gun violence.
    Over the years, my sense of grief and sorrow has turned to 
a personal passion to work for my community and State on gun 
safety issues. I believe that the voices of gun violence 
victims and their families must be heard in the halls of power.
    I joined the Texas House Homeland Security and Public 
Safety Committee, which hears legislation on gun laws, so I can 
amplify the voices of victims and promote change. As a 
Committee member, I've had the opportunity in recent months to 
weigh in on a dangerous piece of legislation in Texas, House 
Bill 1927.
    The bill would permit people to carry concealed, loaded 
weapons in public spaces without passing any background or 
training requirement. Passage of this bill will significantly 
weaken protections and safeguards that are currently in place 
to protect communities from gun violence.
    Texas's firearm safety laws are already some of the weakest 
in the country. Texas' existing framework is already full of 
loopholes and encourages gun trafficking across State lines and 
into Mexico. At present, existing State law requires people to 
pass a background check and complete a basic safety training 
course to be licensed to carry loaded handguns in public 
places.
    House Bill 1927 will do away with that requirement. 
Alarmingly, Texas does not universally require people to pass a 
background check to purchase firearms. Legislation I filed this 
session attempted to close loopholes in the background check 
system, whether someone is purchasing guns at gun shows, 
online, or through other means.
    My background check bills did not make it out of committee. 
On the other hand, House Bill 1927 is on its way to becoming 
law, and it will make it impossible for our law enforcement to 
know if people carrying guns on our streets are in legal 
possession or not.
    It will make it easier for people who can't currently pass 
background checks to carry a firearm, including those with 
violent criminal histories or those suffering from chemical 
dependencies.
    The research is clear that flooding public spaces with more 
hidden loaded guns in more hands makes our communities less 
safe. A good guy with a gun rarely saves the day. More often, 
the gun that is intended to protect one from danger ends up 
doing just the opposite.
    Contrary to the notion that flooding our communities with 
guns will somehow reduce gun violence, a considerable body of 
study, of research, shows that states that have enacted 
permitless carry legislation are experiencing significant 
increases in gun violence.
    States that have weakened law enforcement authority to deny 
permits to people who might pose a danger to the public have 
seen an 11% increase in homicide rates and a 13-15% increase in 
violent crime rates.
    In 2003, Alaska became the first State to enact permitless 
carry legislation. Since then, the State has seen the rate of 
aggravated assaults with a gun increase by 65%. In Arizona, 
where the legislature enacted permitless carry in 2010, the 
rate of aggravated assault with a gun has increased by eight 
percent, translating to 921 more gun-related aggravated 
assaults per year.
    Here in Texas, we have experienced numerous horrific gun-
related tragedies. Most recently, there was a shooting in the 
Midland-Odessa communities in which a gunman drove through 
those two towns shooting innocent victims.
    In our Committee we heard testimony about one of the 
victims, a man in his early twenties, who was shopping for a 
car with his family. They watched as he was gunned down by a 
man who had previously failed a background check but was later 
able to obtain a gun.
    Prior to that, a gunman drove across the State from Allen 
to El Paso to shoot innocent victims at a Walmart store. 
Immediately following the El Paso shooting, the Governor held a 
roundtable discussion bringing together stakeholders to discuss 
safety measures.
    Yet here we are in Texas, this legislative session, not 
passing laws to make us safer, but instead passing a law that 
will allow people to carry guns without any safety training or 
permit.
    Like all of you, I am responsible for protecting my 
constituents and ensuring the safety of my community, which is 
what brings me here today. House Bill 1927 poses a significant 
threat to the lives of well-being of Texans. If enacted, we can 
expect more gun violence, not less.
    As a legislator, I see our role as saving lives and 
preventing deaths. I hope today's hearing puts us all one step 
closer to fulfilling that goal. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Goodwin follows:]
    
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    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentlelady's testimony was powerful. 
I'm going to ask our Members to indulge us, and I want to ask 
the Members as I recess, let me just thank Members Karen Bass, 
Val Demings, Lucy McBath, Madeleine Dean, Mary Gay Scanlon, 
Cori Bush, David Cicilline, Ted Lieu, Lou Correa, Veronica 
Escobar, and Steve Cohen, who I hope will return. We'll recess 
for the vote.
    To the panelists, if you could reserve and we will call to 
order in just a few minutes. This is in recess; the Committee 
is in recess.
    [Recess.]
    Ms. Jackson Lee. We'll call this hearing to order again. It 
is entitled An Unending Crisis: Essential Steps to Reducing Gun 
Violence and Mass Shootings.
    As I begin to call on the other witnesses, I just want to 
take note of the fact of the introductions that many of these 
witnesses have experienced their own personal stories of gun 
violence. I want to say to them that they have our concern and 
our hearts focused on their loss.
    The next witness knows that loss all too personally. I 
indicated earlier as I introduced him that he has taken that to 
serve America.
    Mr. Guttenberg, you are yielded to at this time for five 
minutes. Thank you.

                  STATEMENT OF FRED GUTTENBERG

    Mr. Guttenberg. Thank you. Chair Jackson Lee, Ranking 
Member Biggs, and distinguished Members of the Committee, thank 
you for inviting me to testify today. My name is Fred 
Guttenberg, I am a father of two amazing children, Jesse and 
Jamie.
    On February 14, 2018, my daughter Jamie was murdered 
alongside 13 other children and three adults at Marjorie 
Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida. My son 
Jesse, now 20, lives with the permanent scars of having heard 
his sister get shot.
    I am a father who lives with the sound of that single shot 
severing my daughter's spinal cord. I am a father who hopes his 
daughter died instantly. Otherwise, it means she suffered.
    My daughter will be 14 forever. My wife and I watched as 
all the other kids post pictures of going to prom and college 
acceptances this year. We are happy for them, but we break down 
and cry because Jamie should be with them.
    I have been told, even by some here this morning, that I 
hate the Second amendment and that I am a gun-grabber. Nothing 
could be further from the truth. I simply want to save lives.
    My daughter was killed in a mass shooting, the kind we have 
seen over and over again in elementary schools, middle schools, 
high schools, colleges, concerts, movie theaters, grocery 
stores, bars, businesses, and the list goes on where a shooter 
is armed with an assault weapon and a large capacity magazine. 
These are weapons of war designed to kill as many people as 
possible as fast as possible. That's why they become the weapon 
of choice for mass murderers.
    Congress must take action to ban assault weapons and large 
capacity magazines, which have killed thousands of innocent 
Americans. Mass shootings like the one where my daughter was 
murdered get a lot of attention. They account for just a small 
percentage of American gun violence.
    Forty thousand people die every year, that's over 100 a day 
in incidents of domestic and community violence, hate crimes, 
suicide, and unintentional shootings all across the country. In 
fact, in the time that it takes me to read this statement, 
somebody's getting shot right now.
    My friends Kristin and Mike Song know all too well the 
tragic consequences of what happens when a firearm is not 
safety stored. In 2018 their son Ethan, just 15, was 
unintentionally shot and killed after accessing an unsecured 
gun in a neighbor's house. This is not an anomaly in America. 
Every day eight children and teens are unintentionally shot by 
unsecured, loaded firearms found in a home.
    It's estimated that 4.6 million children live in homes with 
at least one unsecured gun. No one should know the pain of 
losing a child to a gun. We can and we must do better.
    I've been partnering with Brady, one of the nation's older 
gun violence prevention organizations, and they have led the 
End Family Fire Program, a national education campaign by gun 
owners for gun owners on the importance of safe storage. Family 
fire is a shooting involving an improperly stored or misused 
gun found in the home, and it's one of the biggest contributors 
to gun deaths every year.
    Safe firearm storage provides a lifesaving barrier between 
children or those in crisis from accessing guns, significantly 
decreasing the risk of family fire.
    Congress does have policy options for increasing safe 
storage, something which the vast majority of responsible gun 
owners already agree is important. Researchers have found that 
even a modest intervention that motivates gun owners to safely 
store guns could reduce youth firearm deaths by a third.
    For instance, Congress could pass legislation creating tax 
incentives to promote safe storage, like the Prevent Family 
Fire Act, which had broad bipartisan support last year. 
Congress can also take steps to educate the public more broadly 
about the benefits and the best practices of safe storage and 
could even require gun dealers to post that information when 
they sell guns.
    Ethan's Law, named in honor of Ethan Song, would create a 
legal obligation to safely store a firearm if a minor might 
have access to it. Had this commonsense law been in place in 
2018, Ethan's life could have been spared. I am grateful for my 
dear friends Kristin and Mike, but I truly wish I never knew 
them.
    These policies would have a measurable impact on people's 
lives. There is more that Congress can do to protect public 
safety. This body has now twice passed legislation to expand 
and strengthen background checks for gun sales.
    Also, and very near to my heart, Congress should expand 
background checks to cover ammunition sales. Jamie's Law, named 
in honor of my daughter, would do just that.
    It's not acceptable that so many lives are lost to gun 
violence in this country, and it doesn't have to be this way. I 
urge you all to take action to save lives. I am grateful for 
the opportunity to testify today before you, and I look forward 
to your questions. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Gutterberg follows:]
    
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    Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Gutterberg, thank you so very much for 
being willing to be here today.
    Mr. Guttenberg. Thank you.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Our sympathies again to you and your 
friends.
    Now, I'm happy to yield five minutes to Ms. Muller. You are 
recognized for five minutes. Thank you.

                   STATEMENT OF DIANNA MULLER

    Ms. Muller. Thank you, Chair Jackson Lee, Ranking Member 
Biggs, and Committee Members. I'm honored to be here today to 
discuss this important topic and brainstorm on strategies to 
save lives.
    For decades now, the conversation seems to only lead to gun 
control advocates pushing for more laws and more restrictions. 
It's time to look at the evidence, acknowledge the truth, and 
consider alternatives.
    The truth is we all want the same thing. We all want to be 
safe, and we want our families to be safe. The difference is 
how we believe that is achieved.
    For over 30 years, the strictest gun control policies have 
been adopted by several major cities across the country. Based 
on decades of evidence in cities like St. Louis and Chicago and 
many more, it's apparent that these policies do not work. The 
results are the same.
    When average citizens are less capable of defending 
themselves, criminals are emboldened, crime soars, and 
communities are less safe. As a retired police officer, I saw 
firsthand the impact of violence on communities. I can tell you 
that buzzwords like epidemic, ghost guns, weapons of war, or 
assault weapon are designed to push false narratives and are 
designed to scare the public.
    We always hear about commonsense gun control. Common sense 
is that cities plagued with violence should adopt the laws of 
cities that are not plagued with violence. Common sense is not 
making more rules, more laws, registrations, and fees that make 
protecting yourself a rich man's game.
    Gun control law disproportionately affect lower income 
minority communities. Gun control is steeped in racism. Common 
sense is making mental health a priority when 55% of deaths are 
suicide. Common sense is holding criminals accountable for 
breaking the law instead of releasing them from jail, raising 
bail for them, or encouraging them to be more confrontational.
    Many Americans are exhausted by the incessant attacks on 
our Second amendment rights. I founded the DC Project Women for 
Gun Rights because we were tired of listening to women who do 
not represent us, women who are not experts in firearms or in 
violence. Yet, they demand that legislators restrict our 
constitutional and civil rights.
    I am honored to speak on behalf of the Members of DC's 
Projects, mothers, daughters, young and old, Black, White, 
Latina, Asian, hunters, competitors, transgender, straight, 
#MeToo, #NotMe, on the political left and right. The Second 
amendment wins on the intersectionality scale.
    There are women in our group that have endured unspeakable 
violence. Lucretia lost her son to gang violence. Melissa was 
stabbed 17 times, raped, beat, and left for dead in her 
parents' home in a stranger invasion. Nikki saw her husband 
shot and killed by her stalker in a gun-free zone, which is 
where 95% of mass killings occur. All these women are 
intimately familiar with the failures of gun control.
    The year 2020 brought us a pandemic, riots, looting, 
killing, and an effort to defund the police. Crime is soaring 
in those cities. Americans are realizing that they are their 
own first responder, which is why we're seeing record gun sales 
and an estimated 8.4 million first-time purchasers.
    I will also add that the Second amendment wasn't written 
about hunting. It was written about we, the people, and a 
tyrannical government. The question before us is how do we 
reduce violence in our country? There are details and links in 
my written testimony, but these are a few programs that have 
had successful results.
    The hunter's education program has exponentially lowered 
firearms-related incidents and fatalities. The KidSafe 
Foundation takes the target audience a step further and focuses 
on all children, not just hunters. Zero firearms accidents are 
the only acceptable goal. Hold My Guns is a suicide prevention 
program that respects civil rights.
    All these are community-based, grassroots programs that are 
geared toward safety. Instead of exploiting tragedy and pushing 
pain to push agenda--a gun control agenda, let's work in a 
nonpartisan way to expand programs and deliver measurable 
results.
    The DC Project women are available to resource to all of 
you. We will meet, talk, train, and whatever we can do to 
achieve safety in our communities through education, not 
legislation.
    Thank you for the opportunity to speak, and I look forward 
to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Muller follows:],
    
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    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thanks to Ms. Muller for her testimony, 
and I'm delighted to yield five minutes to Mr. Skaggs. Excuse 
me, Mr. Skaggs, it's Pastor Grady. I had checked him off, but 
he is not checked off. Pastor Grady, are you there?
    Mr. Grady. Yes, I am, madam.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. You're unmuted, thank you. I'm yielding to 
you at this time. Thank you.

                 STATEMENT OF MICHAEL E. GRADY

    Mr. Grady. Thank you again, Madam Chair and Members of the 
Committee, for the opportunity to share my story with you on 
today.
    My name is Michael Grady, and over the course of my life 
I've been blessed to hold several titles. I am the Pastor of 
the Prince of Peace Christian Fellowship Church in El Paso, 
Texas. Over two decades, I served in the chaplaincy of the 
United States Army. For the past 40-years plus, I've been 
married to my wife, Jeneverlyn, and we have three wonderful 
daughters.
    I'm here today, though, because of what happened on August 
3, 2019. On that morning, I was at home while my wife and 
daughter were at a shopping center just a few minutes away from 
our home. At 10:45 a.m., time seemingly came to a halt when I 
received a panicked call from my wife telling me to come to 
Walmart because my daughter Michelle, our middle daughter, had 
been shot three times.
    Shot three times? My daughter? It was as if my wife was 
speaking a foreign language because the words did not 
immediately register. How could Michelle have been shot? 
Serving over 20 years in the Army only to find my daughter to 
be shot in our own community seemed to me incomprehensible.
    I snapped out of disbelief and immediately jumped in the 
car with my daughter Jacqulyn. When we arrived, our 
neighborhood shopping center looked more like a war zone you 
should see on the evening news. We ran past people who appeared 
to have already lost their lives, desperately searching for 
Michelle while fearing the worst.
    Finally, we came upon my wife and Michelle, who was shot 
three times and in critical condition. She was rushed to the 
hospital. Thank God she survived. My daughter is as strong and 
resilient as anyone. She still walks with a cane, and every day 
she deals with the trauma of that experience.
    Unfortunately, though, 23 other people did not make it. 
When I think about that day and the aftermath, I think about 
choices initially. I thought about the shooter's choices, his 
choice to buy a gun. His choice to get in a car. His choice to 
murder people because of the color of their skin and their 
country of origin. All the chances he had to turn around, but 
he chose not to.
    Now, I think about the uplifting choices that others have 
made since that day. Through my work as the Chair of the local 
chapter of the Crime Survivors for Safety and Justice and my 
ministry, I've met countless people affected by gun violence, 
most incidents that never make the headlines. They've chosen to 
share their stories and relive their trauma in hopes that it 
will compel our elected officials to take action.
    What I endured, survived, and witnessed on August 3, 2019 
occurs too often in our nation. Just 13 hours after my daughter 
was shot, another mass shooting occurred in Dayton, Ohio. That 
same weekend in Chicago, 40 people were shot, three fatally, in 
a series of shootings.
    Gun violence destroys families and communities every single 
day in this country. This violence though is not inevitable. 
Action can be taken to give community relief from this epidemic 
of violence. Policy makers can take action to pass common sense 
measures to prevent these tragedies like universal background 
checks to keep guns out of the hands of people who should not 
have them, extreme risk laws to give family Members and law 
enforcement officers the chance to prevent someone showing 
signs of dangerous behavior or suicidal issues from possession 
or purchasing firearms. Better regulations of assault weapons, 
large capacity weapons that are often used in mass shootings, 
and legislation to make sure that people convicted of hate 
crimes cannot access firearms.
    Gun violence shouldn't be a common experience in our 
communities all over America. Passing gun safety laws like the 
ones I mentioned above will prevent families from losing loved 
ones or enduring the physical and psychological trauma of a 
gunshot injury.
    Now today, I think about the choices before this Congress. 
I hope that you will choose to pass common sense gun laws, make 
investments in communities that will save lives and reduce the 
chances that another family will go through what mine has.
    Thank you and I yield my time.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Grady follows:]
    
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    Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the witness for his powerful 
testimony. Now, it is time to recognize Mr. Skaggs for five 
minutes. Thank you very much.

                  STATEMENT OF J. ADAM SKAGGS

    Mr. Skaggs. Thank you, Chair Jackson Lee, Ranking Member 
Biggs, Members of the Committee for the opportunity to 
testimony. I am Adam Skaggs, Chief Counsel and Policy Director 
at Giffords Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence.
    In 2020, America suffered not only from COVID-19, but from 
a gun violence crisis that surged in all its forms. Only five 
months into this year, we have already had more than 100 mass 
shootings. We have seen significant spikes in gun homicides, 
especially in communities of color, increases in gun suicides, 
and escalating domestic violence. We cannot allow this violence 
to continue for the next generation.
    I commend the House for its passage of several important 
gun safety bills, including H.R. 8 which closes glaring 
loopholes in the background check system; H.R. 1446 which 
provides more time for the FBI to complete background checks; 
and H.R. 1620 which closes loopholes that allow abusive dating 
partners and convicted stalkers to access firearms.
    I would also like to address additional reforms that would 
make a critical difference and are a crucial part of a public 
health approach that is focused on prevention, is proportional 
to the seriousness of the issue, and is firmly grounded in data 
and research.
    First, extreme risk protection orders, or ERPOs, often 
after mass shootings, we learn that law enforcement or family 
Members saw serious warning signs before any violence occurred. 
When someone poses a threat to themself or others, extreme risk 
laws provide a way to intervene. If and only if a court finds 
credible evidence they pose a serious risk of harming themself 
or others, a means to temporarily remove guns and prevent them 
buying new guns. Studies prove that ERPO laws are effective at 
preventing suicides and have prevented mass shootings.
    While 19 states and the District have these laws, Congress 
should support other states' efforts to pass and implement them 
and Congress should prioritize Congresswoman McBath's H.R. 2377 
to create an extreme risk process in the federal courts.
    Next, I want to address homemade, untraceable firearms, so 
called ghost guns, that leverage a misinterpretation of federal 
law to allow people who would fail a background check to easily 
access guns. Ghost guns include weapons made with 3D printers 
and guns assembled from kits that include unfinished parts. 
They lack serial numbers and are therefore untraceable by law 
enforcement, making them the weapons of choice for criminal gun 
traffickers responsible for a growing share of crime guns.
    Fortunately, ATF has proposed a Rule ensuring that the key 
parts of ghost guns, frames, and receivers, are properly 
treated as firearms. Several bills introduced this year would 
also address ghost guns including H.R. 3088 introduced by 
Congressman Cicilline, Congresswoman Dean's H.R. 1447, and 
Representative Deutch's bill to prohibit the online 
distribution of code for 3D-printed guns.
    Turning now to the threat posed by unsecured guns in homes, 
research has shown that there is an increased risk of suicide, 
unintentional injury, and death for children when guns are not 
stored safely. Simple practices to safely secure guns can mean 
the difference between life and death for kids and with 4.6 
million American children living in homes with loaded, unlocked 
guns, it is critical that Congress takes action.
    We are grateful to Chair Jackson Lee and Congresswoman 
DeLauro for their leadership on this issue. Their bills would 
encourage gun owners to Act responsibly. We also need laws that 
will encourage the gun industry to do the same.
    The gun law to convince Congress to pass the Protection of 
Lawful Commerce in Arms Act, or PLCAA, gives manufacturers and 
sellers of guns unprecedented immunity from lawsuits. PLCAA has 
slammed the courthouse door shut for the thousands of gun 
violence victims whose deaths and injuries could have been 
prevented if the gun industry behaved in a more responsible 
manner. This Congress has the chance to right this wrong and 
should repeat PLCAA by passing legislation like H.R. 2814 from 
Congressman Schiff.
    Finally, while we should treat the gun industry the same 
way that we treat other industries, not all guns are created 
equal. Semi-automatic assault rifles offer a particularly 
lethal combination, rifle ammunition capable of penetrating 
bullet-proof vests and detachable magazines that can hold as 
many as 100 rounds. This lethality has made them the weapon of 
choice for mass shooters, and we are glad that the Hon. 
Cicilline has reintroduced his bill, H.R. 1808, to restrict 
access to these devices.
    While we often hear about mass shootings committed with 
assault rifles, the gun industry is now manufacturing AR-15 
style handguns that fire the same rounds. They pose a serious 
risk to law enforcement because they fire rifle ammunition that 
can penetrate body armor, but they are small enough to conceal. 
They were used to perpetrate mass shootings in Boulder and 
Dayton, Ohio and Congress must ensure these dangerous weapons 
are properly regulated. I thank the Hon. Demings for 
introducing H.R. 2466 which would do so.
    Thank you again, Madam Chair, and I look forward to taking 
your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Skaggs follows:]
    
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]    
       
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much. This has been a very 
important set of statements that I believe are reflective of 
the concern of Americans. With the witnesses finishing their 
testimony, I will now proceed under the five-minute Rule with 
questions, and I will begin by recognizing myself for five 
minutes.
    First, I think it is important to note that I have not been 
able to find any member of Congress that has used the killing 
of a loved one of their constituents, the witnesses, as a 
narrative to enact what some may perceive as gun laws adverse 
to a small percentage of Americans, since over 80-90 percent of 
Americans believe in gun safety. I think the record should be 
clear on that.
    Let me quickly go to Mr. Guttenberg for his take on where 
we are today. I am short on time, so I will quickly pose my two 
questions together.
    You spoke of the few friends who suffered because of lack 
of gun storage. We know that in the Sandy Hook tragedy, though 
guns were stored, they were accessible, and tragically babies 
lost their life. If you can speak to that and then as well, the 
idea of family fire combined together where children are 
harmed. I know that you are well aware of those of us who 
believe in banning the assault weapon and appreciate Mr. 
Cicilline and continue to push for that.
    Mr. Guttenberg.
    Mr. Guttenberg. Well, thank you. You just highlighted some 
examples. We do know exactly what happened. We know why those 
shootings happened. Where we are today is sitting in a hearing 
where there is a lot of people in this room who don't want to 
acknowledge the facts that we know about what happened.
    Listen, you can be a Second amendment advocate and want to 
save lives. Okay? Just so everyone in this room knows, my 
father-in-law owns guns. My son has been shooting with him. My 
best friend is a law enforcement officer who actually is the 
one who identified my daughter's dead body. Okay?
    So, when I listen to this room and I hear all of these 
examples of reasons why some people refuse to take any action 
to save lives, it is infuriating because while we are here, 
like I said in my opening statement, someone is getting shot 
and we know the reasons why and we know it is going to happen 
again because we continue to not take action. No, there is--
listen, nobody is talking about anything other than steps to 
predictably save lives, background checks, the end family fire 
program, and safe storage.
    In 2005, you did pass a bill which required safe storage 
devices go out with handguns. You know what, we should extend 
that. This isn't rocket science, saving lives.
    I just want to let everyone know; my daughter had rights. 
My daughter had rights to grow up, live, and maybe be a Second 
amendment activist. My daughter had a right to go to school, 
college, get married, and make me a grandparent. That is never 
going to happen. The more we sit around here having BS 
arguments, the more you are going to be hearing conversations 
like this.
    Let's do this. We should be working together to save lives, 
and honestly, I hope we do. Thank you.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you. I hope I can encourage Mr. 
Biggs to support the storage bill.
    Let me go to Representative Goodwin, we know that the bill 
that I spoke of earlier passed the Senate and the House in the 
State of Texas, but we know that it is in the hard work of 
those of you in the House. It is now in conference, but I 
thought it was important to bring national attention to this 
bill.
    Will you tell us more about that Texas House Bill 1927 and 
the implications of that bill in the midst of your personal 
story, but more importantly, what you did on that bill today? 
Thank you.
    Ms. Goodwin. Thank you, absolutely. So, House Bill 1927 
essentially will let people walk around on our Texas streets 
without getting training and we have heard from law 
enforcement, they came out and held a press conference on the 
capitol steps saying that they are not in favor of this law. 
They like people getting training if they are going to own and 
possess a gun.
    One of the things that I did add to the bill, a lot of the 
argument from the other side was that people like the license 
to carry in Texas. They are still going to get a license to 
carry. While we hope that is the case, I am skeptical and so I 
added an amendment to the bill that will have our Department of 
Public Safety keep a record and provide a report back to the 
legislature of how many people do get a license to carry after 
this bill goes into effect and get the training that they need, 
so they can safely carry their guns.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. This is my final point to you; you believe 
the ultimate passage of a permitless bill can endanger more 
lives in Texas and the nation?
    Ms. Goodwin. Absolutely. I believe more guns on the street 
does not make us safer. I also am very concerned for our 
children and just their mental well-being. We are in Texas 
expanding upon our guardian and marshal programs which allows 
folks to carry guns in our schools and we have these active 
shooter drills that really affect the mental health of our 
students and that is also a very big concern of mine.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much. My time has expired.
    Mr. Chabot, you are recognized for five minutes.
    Mr. Chabot. Thank you very much. Ms. Muller, approximately 
$1.7 billion has been cut from police departments nationwide. 
This comes at a time when violent crime is skyrocketing in 
major cities across the country. Last year, the U.S. saw, in 
fact, over 20,000 murders, the largest number since 1995, and 
that was 4,000 more than the year prior to that. The city that 
I have the honor to represent, City of Cincinnati, we 
experienced the deadliest year that we had seen in its history.
    You are a 22-year police officer, is that--
    Ms. Muller. Retired.
    Mr. Chabot. Retired police officer. What is your reaction 
to the defunding police across the Nation and what impact is 
that having on these skyrocketing rates?
    Ms. Muller. Well, I believe that you could see--well, any 
American can see over the past year of the violence and the 
rioting that it just doesn't make any sense to us. It doesn't 
make any sense to vilify and demonize and undermine the police 
department what you are saying is going to be our savior when 
we give up our firearms.
    Now, we are really understanding that we are our own first 
responders. We are responsible for our own safety. That is why, 
as frustrating as it is for Mr. Guttenberg, I am just as 
frustrated for the exact opposite reasons. It is just 
interesting to hear him say that because I feel the exact same 
way that why are we not working together? Why are we not 
looking at the truths and the evidence that these guns don't 
work. All these places that these--95 percent of these mass 
killings are in gun-free zones. It is a problem. It is not a 
gun problem. It is a gun-free zone problem.
    So, it doesn't make any sense to the average American that 
we would defund the police and push gun control at the same 
time.
    Mr. Chabot. Thank you. I would like to read a quote to you 
from a United States Senator on the Senate floor some years 
back. ``During my 12\1/2\ years as a member of this body, I 
have never believed that additional gun control or federal 
registration of guns would reduce crime. I am convinced that a 
criminal who wants a firearm can get one through illegal, 
untraceable, unregistered sources with or without gun 
control.'' That was Senator Joe Biden, by the way, quite some 
time ago. Now, in all fairness, he has changed his mind on a 
whole of things like protecting innocent unborn lives, the most 
vulnerable above us, but I digress.
    The comments that he made back there, do they seem for the 
most part accurate and reasonable?
    Ms. Muller. I agree that they are accurate and reasonable, 
and I included in my written testimony Suzanna Hupp who was in 
a mass shooting, mass killing because I am a shooter. I kind of 
get offended at the shooting part, a mass killing, and she is 
preaching the same thing 30 years ago. She testified. I was 
watching--it is in my written testimony, those links to when 
she was testifying almost 30 years ago. She is speaking the 
truth. She is saying that gun-free zones kill. That magazine 
restrictions are not effective. She was legislated out of the 
right to protect herself. She left her gun somewhere else so 
she wouldn't have it in a gun-free zone.
    She is saying the same thing. The truth remains the same, 
but as you can see, Mr. Biden has changed his position and I 
believe that is because it is not truthful.
    Mr. Chabot. Thank you. I have only got about a minute left, 
so one more thing I would like to ask you. You had, I think, a 
very impactful written statement, opening statement as well. 
The challenge is getting it in five minutes because there was a 
lot in your written statement that you didn't have time to do 
in your oral statement. So, let me ask you this, you had a 
quote in here. It says, ``Gun control laws sound good, but do 
nothing to prevent criminals from committing crimes.''
    Could you kind of expound upon that what you mean by that?
    Ms. Muller. Right. I think we need to hold criminals 
accountable. We have been so soft and bending over backwards to 
let bad people out of jail. You have seen it over the past 
several years, but when people commit crimes, they should be 
held accountable. Instead of continually making more laws, that 
is only going to continue to make more criminals.
    You are legislating me into being a criminal every time you 
want to take away my bump stock or every time you want to take 
away my magazine restriction. Why should the burden be on the 
law abiding? Why can't we hold people that make ghost guns, why 
can't--it is illegal to sell them. Why can't we hold them 
accountable already with the laws that are already in place?
    Mr. Chabot. Thank you. My time has expired, Madam Chair. I 
yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman's time has expired.
    We now recognize Congresswoman Bass. Ma'am, I am not 
ignoring you. We now recognize Mr. Nadler.
    Chair Nadler. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Muller, your statement that the purpose of the Second 
amendment is to prevent government tyranny necessarily means 
that people who think government policies are tyrannical have 
the right to turn their guns on American troops. I find that 
appalling.
    Mr. Skaggs, please describe the impact that the Protection 
of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act is set on the ability of victims 
of gun violence to hold the gun industry accountable and should 
we repeal that law?
    Mr. Skaggs. Well, it is essentially taking that ability 
away from them. The Protection of Lawful Commerce in Arms Act 
provides near blanket immunity to the gun industry. It prevents 
the vast majority of victims of gun violence from suing 
irresponsible actors within the industry, whether it is 
manufacturers or sellers. If you look at the way the civil 
justice system has been used, for instance, with automobiles 
and with tobacco, civil lawsuits against those industries led 
to significant increases in--
    Chair Nadler. We should repeal the law.
    Mr. Skaggs. You should.
    Chair Nadler. Why are assault weapons and concealable 
short-barrel assault rifles and pistols, of the weapons of 
choice for people intending to engage in a mass shooting?
    Mr. Skaggs. Well, these are weapons that are designed with 
the specific purpose of being able to fire many rounds in a 
very short period of time and equipped with large-capacity 
magazines like the one that was used in the Dayton shooting 
that held 100 rounds. They can kill a lot of people very 
quickly and that is why mass shooters use them.
    Chair Nadler. What can Congress do to ensure that every 
American has access to an extreme risk protection order to that 
they can intervene when someone they love is in crisis?
    Mr. Skaggs. Well, Congress can encourage states to adopt 
these laws. Nineteen states and the District of Columbia have 
done so, but obviously many more haven't. Congress should 
provide incentives for states to do so and to assist with 
implementation. In those states that won't enact these policies 
on their own, Congresswoman McBath's bill would allow federal 
courts to be utilized as kind of a backstop to State action on 
the issue and would allow Americans across the country to 
ensure that they have access to an extreme risk protection 
order.
    Chair Nadler. Thank you. Mr. Guttenberg, I'm so sorry for 
your loss and your advocacy inspires me. What you have 
described seems like responsible gun ownership. Can we really 
legislate that? If so, how?
    Mr. Guttenberg. Well, we can, and we do it by 
acknowledging, I think as you keep saying, truth, and dealing 
with facts. I'll use Cincinnati as an example of where facts 
sometimes maybe get disturbed. Because I testified in Ohio. My 
family lives in Cincinnati. The Congressman is no longer here, 
he knows my family.
    I was in Cincinnati two years ago looking at the spiking 
gun violence in Cincinnati, and the reality is it has an awful 
lot to do with what Ohio has been doing with their loosening of 
gun laws in the state. So yes, we legislate all the time. 
There's a reason why I wear a seatbelt, okay.
    This body can legislate. In 2005, you did on the issue of 
guns. You actually required gun shops to give out a--safety 
locking a mechanism with handguns. That can be extended. This 
body can legislate to save lives, and it is irresponsible if it 
doesn't happen.
    Chair Nadler. Thank you. Pastor Grady, what are the long-
term impacts on our children and our country if Congress fails 
to effectively address gun violence?
    Mr. Grady. Thank you for asking. I think the long-term 
implication is that our communities feel less safe. Uncertain 
about being able to navigate in a way that produces credibility 
for law enforcement to do their job, and also for citizens to 
feel that they have a vested interest.
    I believe in community-based alignment with law enforcement 
and the community to establish programs, community-based 
violence intervention programs. They've proven to be a good 
track record to measure the effectiveness of really coming 
together and talking about the real issue.
    It is affecting the mental, psychological, and social 
implication that come from the kind of violence that we've seen 
here in El Paso, Texas. We're still reeling from that, but 
we're trying to bring our community together again through 
police accountability, through the larger problem of 
communicating the effectiveness of this program that has been 
proven in several cities across the nation.
    Chair Nadler. Thank you. How as a faith leader have you had 
to address everyday violence in your community and what 
solutions do you see would empower communities to respond to 
gun violence?
    Mr. Grady. Thank you. One of the things that we've 
attempted to do here in the city through the interfaith 
community is to bring, again, the community of faith together 
with law enforcement and citizens, and to disseminate 
information in a way that gives our citizens a feeling of 
safety and a feeling that their needs will be addressed as it 
pertains to how they navigate throughout the city of El Paso.
    The challenge is, again, getting law enforcement to really 
take a commonsense approach to community policing. I grew up in 
the Midwest and there was a time and a season in my life when 
police actually walked the beat, and they had a greater 
relationship with the citizens in the communities in which they 
served.
    So, I think that's part of the answers, moving a productive 
way of community policing, of resourcing our cities, so that 
they will be able to have access to the kind of commonsense 
mental and physical health, occupational apparatuses that will 
help to alleviate some of the struggle that we have in our 
cities.
    Chair Nadler. Thank you, my time is expired. I yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman's time is expired. The Chair 
now recognizes Mr. Gohmert from Texas.
    Mr. Gohmert. Thank you, Madam Chair. Dr. Suzanna Hupp can 
be more articulate on this issue.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Reserving my right to object. May I ask 
the gentleman if he gave the majority a 48-hour notice that he 
intended to play the video in accordance with our Committee AV 
protocol?
    Mr. Gohmert. I understood that my staff had, I don't know 
for certain. So, if the gentlelady is saying she's going to 
prohibit that from--
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Absolutely not, I just asked the question. 
So, you don't think you did. If that is the case, these things 
happen and so I'm going to be generous to my fellow Texan, 
Congressman Gohmert, and we'll allow you to, in spite of the 
protocols not being followed, we'll allow you to go ahead and 
play it. Withdraw my objection. So, I yield to you.
    Mr. Gohmert. Thank you.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much.
    Mr. Cicilline. Point of parliamentary inquiry, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman is recognized for 
parliamentary inquiry.
    Mr. Cicilline. My inquiry is your gracious accommodation of 
this I hope will not be read as a signal to violate the rules 
moving forward.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Gohmert. Thank you. Hopefully they'll be able to play 
that. There it is.
    [Video played.]
    Mr. Gohmert. Thank you. Dr. Hupp has been very helpful in 
getting good legislation passed in Texas. Once again, there is 
nobody in here that I know of that is not just heartbroken over 
mass shootings. Once again, I find myself urging what I have 
for years. We ought to have hearings to get to the bottom of 
why people are taking guns and shooting.
    We've had guns throughout our history, modern weapons for 
the times throughout our history. Only in more recent history 
do we have so many mass shootings. I would suggest that one 
place to start, no matter how well intentioned the War on 
Poverty was, the Federal Government started paying people to 
get the father out of the home.
    John Adams said this constitution was intended for a moral 
and religious people. It is absolutely inadequate for any 
other. We need to get two-parent homes, and we need to get back 
to being a moral and religious people. My time's expired, I 
yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the gentleman for his questioning, 
and I now yield to the gentlelady from Florida, Ms. Demings, 
for five minutes.
    Ms. Demings. Thank you so much, Madam Chair. Thank you for 
your leadership on this issue. Thank you to all our witnesses 
who are with us today, either virtually or in the room.
    Let me be clear, it's the prevalence of guns in the wrong 
hands, in the hands of criminals, in the hands of the mentally 
ill, and in the hands of terrorists. Guns in those hands is an 
American tragedy.
    As someone who basically dedicated my life, certainly a 
large percentage of it as a law enforcement officer, to 
protecting and serving and saving lives, when we have the power 
to do that, it's not about taking guns out of the hands of law-
abiding citizens.
    My father was a hunter. I grew up with a, it seems like a 
house full of guns. I carried one for a lot of years. It's 
about keeping guns out of the wrong hands. Not out of the hands 
of law-abiding citizens.
    Look, Pulse nightclub is in my district. Don't ask me not 
to care about the victims of that. Parkland is in my state. 
Don't ask me not to care about the victims in Parkland.
    This week I'm joined by some of you in the room, including 
our distinguished Chair, to introduce new legislation of 
Protecting Our Communities Act to close multiple loopholes in 
federal law that allows guns. Those loopholes that allow guns 
to fall into the wrong hands.
    Ghost guns, are we really here today, are there really some 
people in this room who are defending ghost guns, guns that are 
not traceable? What about armor-piercing concealable, and 
concealable assault weapons?
    These weapons can fire through ballistic vests worn by law 
enforcement officers and can be easily concealed. Are you 
asking me as a former law enforcement officer not to care about 
that?
    Milwaukee Police Officer Matthew Rittner was killed by one 
in 2019. Should we just forget that? The same year a shooter in 
Dayton, Ohio, thank you, Mr. Skaggs, for mentioning that, 
killed nine people and injured 27 others.
    This year in Boulder, Colorado, a man with an AR-15 style 
pistol killed ten, including a responding officer. These 
weapons should be regulated under the National Firearms Act, 
but were specifically designed by gun companies to avoid those 
rules.
    We need to close loopholes in our background checks system, 
taking action to keep guns out of the wrong hands. I say that 
yet again. It's not controversial. The vast majority, because 
we do represent people throughout this nation, the vast 
majority of Americans agree that we should be taking 
straightforward steps to keep guns out of the wrong hands.
    Legislation can help us fulfill that mission. I still want, 
as a Member of Congress, to protect and serve and save lives. 
I'm asking my colleagues to join us in the effort.
    Mr. Skaggs, I really do have a question. You discuss in 
your testimony the proliferation and lethality of armor-
piercing handguns, weapons that would be regulated under the 
National Firearms Act, both through the Law Enforcement 
Protection Act and the Protect Our Communities Act.
    Can you speak more in detail about why these particular 
weapons and the ammunition they fire are so dangerous to law 
enforcement, and quite frankly to our children, our neighbors, 
our coworkers, our friends, and so many others.
    Mr. Skaggs. Absolutely, thank you, Congresswoman Demings. 
As you pointed out, these weapons fire rifle ammunition that 
can penetrate body armor that is worn by law enforcement for 
self-protection, yet they're concealable, which makes them 
easier to transport.
    It makes them frankly easier to bring into spaces like a 
shopping market, like a grocery store in Boulder, Colorado, and 
just commit the horror that occurred there.
    So, these are designed by the industry to circumvent 
regulation under the National Firearms Act, which places 
stronger regulations on short-barreled rifles. The industry has 
attempted to evade that regulation by marketing these as 
assault-style pistols.
    They're dangerous to law enforcement, absolutely. They're 
dangerous to American families and communities as well.
    Ms. Demings. Thank you so much, Mr. Skaggs. Madam Chair, I 
yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the gentlelady for her questioning 
and I'm very happy to yield now to the Ranking Member of the 
Subcommittee, Mr. Biggs for five minutes.
    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Madam Chair. We've heard a lot, and 
we all want to get to the root cause, I would assume, of what 
causes mass gun violence. I think that we have to put some 
things in context. One of those is we rarely hear about the 
use, the defensive use of guns or the amount of lives guns save 
every single day.
    The CDC estimated between 500,000 to three million per 
year, lives are saved by the use, defensive use of firearms.
    So, Ms. Muller, what do you think these numbers show us 
about how people are using firearms?
    Ms. Muller. Well, the statistics are that there's 40, I 
want to say 46,000 lives taken with guns. Some of that, two-
thirds, I think it's 55% in 2020, was suicide. There are--it 
gets the number down in the teens that we're talking people 
that would, in your districts, that would meet a gun in a gun 
crime. It considerably lowers that number.
    Now, if you look at the defensive use of firearms, it's 
exponentially higher than those numbers. So, my position is 
that guns save lives exponentially more than they're taking 
unlawfully lives.
    Mr. Biggs. So, Ms. Muller, with relationship to police 
coming in and responding to very dangerous situations, violent 
situations where there's domestic violence, whether it's an 
active shooter, whether it's some other kind of violence that's 
being perpetrated, how long does it usually take?
    I mean, what's the difference vis-a-vis their arrival time 
and their intervention time with those who are armed and can 
defend themselves and know how to use the weapon?
    Ms. Muller. Police response time is, I think there's an 
average of three to five minutes. I can tell you that the 
majority of our time as police officers is spent cleaning up 
messes and responding and taking calls, taking reports and 
doing investigations. It is not protecting people.
    It is actually, unfortunately in my opinion, that it is not 
the police officer's duty, by SCOTUS, that they have no duty to 
protect. That's what we found in Parkland.
    Mr. Biggs. When you say SCOTUS, you're talking about a 
ruling of the United States Supreme Court.
    Ms. Muller. Yes, sir. We have to protect our children like 
we protect the people in this building. You guys use guns, you 
put a wall up. The hypocrisy doesn't go unnoticed. You put 
military people with guns everywhere. If that's what it takes 
to protect our schools, that's what I expect Congress to do. 
It's not brain surgery. I want to protect the kids.
    Mr. Biggs. So, a comment was made earlier about since 
Arizona went to a constitutional carry status in 2010, that the 
overall homicide rate per 100,000, she didn't use the term per 
100,000, but the overall homicide rate had increased in 
Arizona. Have you had a chance to look at that data?
    Ms. Muller. I did. It was during the Legislator Goodwin's 
comments, that eight percent of aggravated assault that had 
increased since Arizona adopted open carry or permitless carry. 
That struck me because that's not consistent with what I know 
of statistics based on open carry. I went and looked at while 
you guys were on recess.
    In Arizona from 2010 to 2019, murder has declined 22%. 
Murder has declined 22%. Robberies have declined 19%. 
Aggravated assault, I'm still trying to figure out because she 
said aggravated assault with a firearm, and aggravated assault, 
it's not necessarily with just a firearm.
    There isn't a statute, at least in my old department or my 
old city and State that assault, aggravated assault was with 
anything. It could be a car.
    So, that was up eight percent. So, if you're going to--if 
she's going to claim that open carry--
    Mr. Biggs. Just real quick because I'm almost out of time, 
that data is not disaggregated in Arizona by whether it's by 
weapon, guns, or some other weapon, knife, car, or anything. 
Whether it's a police officer who's being assaulted because 
that is categorized as an aggravated assault. That information 
is not disaggregated. So, that's why I found that testimony 
interesting.
    With that, my time is expired. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank the gentleman for his line of 
questioning. As I indicated, there are many on this Committee 
personally having experienced a life experience with guns and 
witnesses as well, none of whom, I choose to believe, are using 
that for a narrative to create gun laws.
    I'm happy now to yield to one of our passionate and 
knowledgeable Members, and that is the gentlelady from Georgia, 
Ms. McBath, for five minutes.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you, Madam Chair. I thank each of you for 
your presence here today and giving your testimony.
    Let's be real. We're talking about gun violence prevention, 
not gun control. Nearly ten years ago I lost my son to gun 
violence. Not a day that goes by that I don't think about him 
and wonder what kind of man he would be today if he were still 
here.
    I came to Congress to prevent other families from 
experiencing the same pain of losing someone that you love so 
dearly to unnecessary gun violence. I truly believe that 
without gun safety legislation, America becomes more powerful 
and violent in a more cruel and arbitrary way.
    Mr. Guttenberg, I know your pain too well. The reality is 
that for every day that we fail to pass commonsense, and it is 
commonsense, gun safety legislation and reforms, more parents 
and more children, siblings, and the partners will know the 
pain which no one in this room should ever, ever have to face.
    Just in Georgia, the State that I represent, we've lost 
Ahmaud Arbery last year unnecessarily. Eight more in the recent 
tragic shootings with the Asian American community just this 
past March.
    Sadly, there are countless acts of violence that never make 
the headlines. No one ever talks about those individuals that 
we lose, other than their loved ones in their communities. 
Nonetheless, the pain of those families is no less deep.
    So, I am glad that we are here again today to keep doing 
this very critical and vital work. Mr. Skaggs, I applaud 
Giffords Law Center for the study of the effectiveness of 
extreme risk protection orders. Nineteen states, as you said, 
and also, DC have embraced this lifesaving tool, and it's 
critical that we know whether or not these laws would be 
effective.
    Thanks to the studies like yours, we know that extreme risk 
protection orders, or red flags as we call them, really do save 
lives. I am proud to have recently reintroduced the Federal 
Extreme Risk Protection Order Act. That's going to make sure 
that every American can access this tool to help keep our 
communities safer.
    I'd like to ask you, how do ERPOs protect the due process 
rights of responsible gun owners?
    Mr. Skaggs. Well, I think it's useful to note that these 
extreme-risk protection order laws are modeled closely after 
domestic violence restraining orders or domestic violence 
protective order laws. They use similar procedures, similar 
standards. Those laws have been around in all the states, all 
50 states, for decades.
    They've been used repeatedly in serious situations, and 
they've repeatedly been found to comply with due process 
requirements. So, we have something that is fully consistent 
with due process that's a foundation for these ERPO laws. They 
too are consistent with due process.
    With all that we hear about due process, I don't hear 
anyone pointing to any court that has ever found that any of 
these ERPO laws have problems with due process, and there's a 
reason that we haven't heard of that, because there isn't a 
problem.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you. Our colleague made mention earlier 
that there might be misuse of the ERPOs. So, are there any 
penalties for those that actually abuse the use of ERPOs?
    Mr. Skaggs. Yeah, the ERPO laws around the states all 
include protections so that if someone for frivolous reasons or 
harassing reasons files one of these, that person then subjects 
themself to penalties. It's akin to perjury, which under 
federal law can carry a five-year prison sentence.
    Under your bill, I believe there's a thousand-dollar fine 
if anyone files a frivolous or harassing request for an ERPO. 
That's similar to the states that prevent the misuse of the 
system by ensuring accountability for anybody who tries to 
abuse the system.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you for that. Mr. Guttenberg, and you 
know, I'm proud to be a co-lead of Jamie's Law, which is named 
after your daughter, which you mentioned today, who you lost 
when she was just 14-years old.
    Our laws already prohibit certain people from obtaining 
both firearms and ammunition, but current law doesn't require 
background checks for ammunition. Jamie's Law merely requires 
just that, a background check for ammunition purchases.
    Please explain to this body today how Jamie's Law actually 
saves lives.
    Mr. Guttenberg. I thank you for asking that. We just saw a 
video played here a short while ago. That was a really old 
video. I don't know what year it's from, but I bring it up 
because unlike back then, today we have about 400 million 
weapons on the streets of America. That's a fact.
    Unfortunately, if you're a prohibited buyer of a firearm, 
you are also by law prohibited from getting the ammunition. 
There's no requirement for a background check on ammunition.
    So, among that 400 million that are in the hands of people 
who may want to kill us, they can get their weapon, steal it, 
get it from somewhere where it was unlocked, or a variety of 
other ways, and simply walk into the store and buy the bullets.
    Jamie's Law shuts down that loophole. It ensures that 
people who are currently unable to buy firearms, who can't pass 
a background check, they can't just walk in and buy the 
ammunition to use the weapon. Jamie's Law will save lives 
immediately if passed because it shuts down that loophole.
    It takes that ability of those who do intend harm who are 
in possession of weapons that they shouldn't be in possession 
of from getting the ammunition to carry out the crime. Thank 
you.
    Ms. McBath. Thank you, and I'm out of time.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the gentlelady for her questioning 
as well, and I am now delighted to yield to the gentleman, Mr. 
Massie.
    Mr. Massie. Thank you, Madam Chair. There are a lot of 
falsehoods that I want to disprove here today in the short time 
that I have, the first of which is that Republicans don't care 
about life or victims. We care about victims. I care about the 
victims of gun control.
    My former employee, my former staff member, watched her 
husband killed in front of her because she followed the gun 
control laws, and yet her assailant, her stalker, did not. She 
left her concealed carry weapon in her car because it was a 
gun-free zone. It's a sign that no criminal ever pays attention 
to.
    So, let me start with some of the other falsehoods here. 
The Charleston loophole. Democrats say if there had just been a 
few more days to check Dylann Roof's background, Roof would 
have been stopped from buying a gun.
    Here's the problem with that assertion: You can't buy a gun 
if you have a felony or certain misdemeanor convictions or if 
you're arrested but not yet convicted of a crime of a possible 
prison sentence of at least one year.
    Roof's arrest was for a misdemeanor drug offense, which had 
a maximum possible sentence of six months. A longer waiting 
period, which the Democrats have asked for and said would solve 
a lot of problems, would not have blocked his gun purchase.
    If Democrats want a waiting period, then pass a waiting 
period. Don't use a tragedy as an example that doesn't apply.
    If they want ban misdemeanor offenses, people who've 
committed them from possessing a gun, then do that. Don't call 
it the Charleston loophole, it's not a loophole. Fact-check me 
on this.
    Now, let's talk about safe storage laws. I ask unanimous 
consent to enter an article into the record from the Journal of 
Law and Economics. I'll read a little bit of the abstract--
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Without objection, so ordered.
    [Information follows:]



      

               MR. MASSIE FOR THE RECORD

=======================================================================

[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]

    Mr. Massie. Thank you, Madam Chair. It's frequently assumed 
that safe storage guns laws reduce accidental gun deaths and 
total suicides, while the possible impact on crime rates are 
ignored.
    The abstract reads, ``We find no support that safe-storage 
laws reduce either juvenile accidental gun deaths or suicides. 
Instead, these storage requirements appear to impair people's 
ability to use guns defensively.''
    It's just common sense. If somebody breaks into your house 
and your gun's locked up, how are you going to use it to defend 
yourself? We don't want to see a victim of gun control, and 
this could cause more victims of gun control.
    Now, let's talk about background checks. Well, first, I've 
heard it said that 90% of Americans support background checks. 
Well, the last two states that put that as that as a 
referendum, Maine and Nevada, on their ballot, there weren't 
90%. It went down by four percent in Maine. It lost, the 
initiative lost, to have universal background checks.
    In Nevada, Bloomberg spent $35 per vote, and it barely won 
by 0.8% in that ballot initiative. So, clearly, 80% or 90% 
don't support background checks. Let me tell you why they don't 
support background checks. There were 112,000 denials due to 
federal background checks in 2017.
    How many prosecutions do you think there were? By the way, 
these would be easy prosecutions. Somebody has lied on a form, 
and they, a prohibited person, a felon, has signed a form 
stating they are not prohibited. Perjury's not difficult to 
prove when you provide a photo ID.
    How many were convicted of the 112,000 denials? Twelve, 12 
federal prosecutions. So, over time, the false positives had 
added up to several million people.
    The mistakes overwhelmingly affect minority males. People 
tend to have similar names in their racial and ethnic groups. 
Hispanics have names similar to other Hispanics, Blacks have 
names similar to other Blacks.
    Dr. John Lott says that when he was recently working in the 
U.S. Department of Justice, he saw data showing that the false 
positive rate for Black males was more than three times their 
share of the population. It was more than twice the share of 
the population for Hispanic males.
    These are victims of gun control, victims of gun control. 
Now, there are some places where they say, well, if you have a 
good reason, we'll let you have a gun.
    These are where you see the most racial discrimination. In 
Los Angeles County, where about 50% of the population is 
Hispanic, they only get about 6\1/2\ percent of the gun 
permits. Women about seven percent and Blacks five percent.
    Nationwide where people can get a permit generally without 
having to demonstrate such a need, 30% of permit holders are 
women, 13% are Black. It's if you're well-connected, if your 
last name is Biden, you can lie on a form, you can get a gun. 
If you need special permission in New York City, you can get a 
gun if you're wealthy and famous. If you're a poor minority, 
no.
    Here's another problem with the gun control that's going to 
cause more victims of gun control, who are least able to take 
16 hours of their lives and commit it to training and pay $500 
for that training to exercise a basic right.
    Liberals say well, if you have photo IDs and costs and 
trainings associated with voting, you're disenfranchising the 
poor and the minorities. Well, what does this do when you 
require all those things to exercise a basic, fundamental human 
right? It's not just a constitutional right, it's a God-given 
right, it's just restated there in the constitution.
    So, I would say, and there's even more things that I could 
disprove here today with facts, but Republicans do care about 
lives. We care about life, liberty, and the pursuit of 
happiness.
    You cannot have liberty, you cannot have the pursuit of 
happiness without defense of life, and that's what we stand 
for. I yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman's time is expired. Now, I am 
happy to call on the gentlelady from Pennsylvania, 
Congresswoman Dean, for five minutes.
    Ms. Dean. I thank the Chair for this powerful hearing and 
the important testimony from all of our witnesses.
    I want to start with what touched me from the pastor. 
Pastor has told us it's all about choices. That couldn't be 
more true today. I'm puzzled by the choice that the Ranking 
Member began with on the importance of this topic. He began 
with the notion that he was offended by alleged inaccuracies of 
Members when they mischarac-terized or misnamed or 
misidentified a weapon.
    Others are uneasy, they're nervous that we might be 
involved in some sort of gun control. Would it be, and would 
that the Ranking Member and others would be more nervous, would 
be more offended that eight children a day die from a failure 
of safe storage. That 20,000 people die of gun violence of this 
year, the highest in 20 years. That 24,000 people die by 
suicide, by gun. That 600 people die in mass shootings, a 50% 
increase from 2019.
    Would that the Members on the other side of the aisle would 
care and be offended by 316 people a day shot and wounded. I 
call it a jetliner a day. A hundred and six will die in that 
jetliner as it tumbles to the Earth. The remaining ones will be 
wounded in the crossfire. It's a jetliner a day, 365 days a 
year.
    Would that the Members on the other side of the aisle would 
care about those troubling numbers. Would that they cared about 
the slaughter.
    Mr. Guttenberg, I am heartbroken and privileged to walk 
with you in this work. Per your testimony, firearm owners who 
keep their guns locked or unloaded are at least 60% less likely 
to die from firearm-related suicide. Adolescents in these 
households have significantly lower risk of firearm suicide or 
of being unintentionally shot.
    With different firearm storage mechanisms from underneath 
the bedroom pillow or from inside Tupperware or above a bureau, 
what should Members of Congress know about really, truly safe 
storage devices for guns in the Prevent Family Fire Act?
    Mr. Guttenberg. Listen, my friends Mike and Kristin Song, 
their son is dead because somebody kept a gun in shoebox. 
That's not safe storage. There are all sorts of easily 
accessible locking devices that can be kept in a home, some 
with smart technology. I think we ought to be really, really 
working harder on that.
    Safe storage does not remove anyone's right, it does not 
remove their access to a weapon. It does not make it hard for 
them to use their weapon. It may save lives. I brought some 
different things here.
    For example, this is the Betsy DeVos school safety report 
after Parkland. This is a Secret Service Report. This is the 
Marjorie Stoneman Douglas report. Every one of them talks about 
the fact that the majority of kids who use weapons in shootings 
get them from a home where they were improperly locked or 
stored. Those are simple facts, that is truth.
    So, a requirement that we lock and safely store a device is 
not an infringement upon anybody's right. I heard everything 
that was said down there. I will simply say I reject almost all 
of it. My daughter would be alive today if somebody put the 
rights of all of us to be free from gun violence.
    We ought to be able to say we respect the rights of gun 
owners, but we also recognize we can be better, we can do 
better to save lives.
    I also just have to say something about Parkland since it 
came up, okay. Because my daughter died in Parkland. So, if 
people bring it up, it matters. You're right, law enforcement 
failed that day. There's no question about it, I am painfully 
aware of that.
    To say that nobody would have died that day if law 
enforcement had shown up is simply inaccurate and wrong. In 
fact, while my daughter might have been saved, she was on the 
third floor, everyone on the first floor still would have been 
shot and killed most likely.
    If you're okay with that as an outcome, that's on you, but 
I'm not. We can be better than this, we're going to be better 
than this. I am counting on this body to get some of these laws 
passed. Thank you.
    Ms. Dean. I see my time is nearly expired. Do I have time 
for one quick question in terms of--
    Ms. Jackson Lee. If the gentlelady is quick.
    Ms. Dean. Mr. Skaggs, can you provide any further 
information on the bill that I have introduced, and others are 
supporting, the Undetectable Firearms Modernization Act?
    Mr. Skaggs. Well, it's been a bipartisan agreement for 
years that we shouldn't have guns that can be smuggled onto 
airplanes and other places where metal detectors are used.
    With new increases in technology that allow for guns to be 
manufactured with 3D printers that are basically made of 
plastic and can't be detected by regular metal detectors, it's 
crucially important that we require that we prohibit guns that 
can't be detected by security technology.
    Mr. Skaggs. Finally, I just want to say that we want to 
keep ourselves and our families safe. We want one other thing, 
to end the slaughter. I yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the gentlelady for her very 
forceful questioning.
    The Republicans reserved, and so I will yield to the 
gentlelady from Pennsylvania as well, Congresswoman Mary Gay 
Scanlon for five minutes.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you.
    Thank you to all our witnesses for your testimony here 
today, including those who have suffered such excruciating 
loss.
    Thank you, Chair Jackson Lee, for calling this important 
hearing about gun violence which is, unfortunately, a 
horrifying reality in parts of my district.
    The spike in mass shootings that we are seeing across the 
country right now is appalling. What doesn't make the headlines 
often enough is the steady toll of gun violence that plagues 
too many communities, including those in my district, day-in 
and day-out.
    During the pandemic, shootings never stopped in 
neighborhoods throughout my district, including in Chester and 
Philadelphia. Two weekends ago 7 people were killed and 18 
injured in gun violence in one weekend. The city has lost more 
than 150 lives in over 700 shootings so far this year, and a 
heartbreaking number of those victims were children, some as 
young as 6 years old.
    Yesterday in Southwest Philadelphia there was a community 
rally at the Mitchell Elementary School to bring attention to 
the unrelenting gun violence in that neighborhood. There have 
been 46 shooting victims within a few blocks area just this 
year.
    That gun violence hasn't occurred because of a lack of 
training in gun safety. The gun violence in Kingsessing and 
elsewhere has occurred because this body has not passed 
legislation to stop the flow of illegal guns and ghost guns 
into our communities, to stop the sale of guns to people who we 
all agree should not have them, and to stop the flow of weapons 
of war to civilians. We haven't given our communities the tools 
they need to stop this violence.
    The families and students at Mitchell Elementary School, 
many of them have refused the invitation to return to in-person 
learning this spring because of the epidemic, but not the COVID 
epidemic--because of the epidemic of gun violence in their 
community. The kids are afraid to go to school. Their parents 
are afraid to let them.
    So, this isn't a 2nd amendment issue, it is a public health 
crisis. I know we all understand the response that a public 
health crisis demands, or at least many of us do. We need a 
comprehensive, multifaceted approach driven by research and 
data to address the many facets of the gun violence epidemic.
    Now, Mr. Skaggs, I have localities in my district currently 
working towards implementing the evidence-based strategy of 
group violence intervention. It was actually used in 
Philadelphia around 2012, 2013 with marked success. Like so 
many of the initiatives, it ran out of funding.
    So, I was wondering if you could speak a little bit more 
about what that strategy entails.
    Mr. Skaggs. Sure. Well, there are programs that have been 
proven time and again to be effective. Communities that are 
wracked with higher levels of gun violence are often--the 
patterns of gun violence in those communities involve a tiny 
percentage of the population who are most likely both to be 
shooters and victims of gun violence.
    Strategies that target those individuals, intervene with 
those individuals, provide support and make clear the 
consequences of continuing to engage in violent behavior have 
been shown time and again to produce the kind of results that 
you describe.
    Oakland, California, to take just a single example, cut 
their gun violence rate in half, by 50 percent. The problem 
with these programs is they are often not adequately or 
consistently funded. They require sustained funding and that is 
really the key to their success.
    Ms. Scanlon. I do think it is important to address both the 
availability of guns, illegal guns, and people who shouldn't 
have them in our communities, but also the kind of community 
supports. There is a lot of data coming out recently about the 
correlation between poverty, hunger, and high gun violence. 
That is certainly something we are seeing in my district.
    How can Congress best support local efforts to curb gun 
violence and create safer communities through violence 
intervention programs?
    Mr. Skaggs. Congress can appropriate funding. Congress can 
study and promote best practices and that sort of thing. It is 
not a complex answer to that question: Congress can appropriate 
funding to be given to these programs across the country.
    We have seen some progress about that, and we are very 
pleased about that. Sustained adequate funding is absolutely 
the key to success.
    Ms. Scanlon. So, you would agree that doing nothing is 
probably not the most successful option?
    Mr. Skaggs. That has generally been proven by experience 
not to work, in my knowledge.
    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you. I yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentlelady yields back. I thank her 
for her questioning.
    I am pleased to yield to the Ranking Member of the Full 
Committee, Mr. Jordan, for five minutes.
    Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Muller, is it a good idea to defund the police?
    Ms. Muller. No, sir.
    Mr. Jordan. You spent time as a law enforcement officer, 
isn't that right? That is your background?
    Ms. Muller. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Jordan. Retired law enforcement officer how many years, 
20-some years, I think?
    Ms. Muller. Twenty-two.
    Mr. Jordan. Twenty-two years. Who did you end up retiring, 
what police department
    Ms. Muller. Tulsa, Oklahoma.
    Mr. Jordan. Oh, so not some small town. Not small-town 
officers are just as important as large cities. This was in a 
big city?
    Ms. Muller. Correct.
    Mr. Jordan. You dealt with all kinds of things. You dealt 
with gang violence. I think you said you were on the Gang 
Violence Task Force and did work with that?
    Ms. Muller. I did.
    Mr. Jordan. Yeah. So, you have dealt with some tough 
situations.
    What do you think of these extreme protection orders?
    Ms. Muller. Well, I think that the Supreme Court of the 
United States just had something to say about it. They just had 
ruling at the end of last week--I don't even know what day it 
is, so forgive me--but, recently that they struck it down, I 
believe in Maryland or somewhere. So, I don't think that is 
going to be an issue.
    Because here is my background on extreme protection orders. 
We already have a vehicle to help people who are in crisis. We 
have a vehicle to hold up to 72 hours and get a psychological 
evaluation.
    A red-flag law, like going and taking somebody's guns, 
removing one means of having an issue, where is the compassion 
in helping somebody by removing their means to defend 
themselves if they should need it during that time that they 
are in crisis.
    Mr. Jordan. Especially, Ms. Muller, if I could, especially 
when the process for removing that, the person is going to be 
losing their firearm, losing their 2nd amendment liberties, 
doesn't even get to be a part of that initial hearing.
    Ms. Muller. Correct.
    Mr. Massie brought up Nikki who went through a traumatic 
incident. She saw her husband murdered. These extreme 
protection orders could affect her because if somebody says, 
hey, Nikki's not having a great day, I think that you probably 
need to go pick up her gun. So, when this guy that killed her, 
the stalker that killed her husband is still stalking her from 
prison, how would that make--there are just so many unintended 
consequences when it comes to red-flag orders, let alone the 
constitutionality.
    Mr. Jordan. Or what about this scenario: What about a 
family of someone that you arrested and went away to prison, 
and the family doesn't like you? They have got to say, well, 
this Muller lady, she believes in the 2nd Amendment. I think I 
saw a Trump flag in her yard. I don't like her. They file this 
thing and you get the right kind of hearing where you don't get 
to defend yourself at that hearing, and they come take your 
firearm.
    Those are the kind of scenarios that scare me. We know in 
this cancel culture world that we live in those kinds of things 
happen all the time.
    How about this scenario: How about you have to go enforce 
and EPO? So, you are the officer. Go back 10 years, 12 years 
ago, whenever you were a member of the Tulsa Police Department, 
and you have deal with all kinds, you have to go and enforce 
it. You have to knock on the door and tell Mr. Jones or Ms. 
Smith, hey, they just took your gun away. I am here to take it. 
There was a proceeding. Now, you weren't a part of it, just 
your 2nd amendment liberty, you weren't a part of it, but I got 
to take your gun.
    That might not be the best situation either for a cop to be 
walking into, would it?
    Ms. Muller. Your 4th Amendment.
    Mr. Jordan. Yeah, of course.
    Ms. Muller. They are going to trample on your 2nd and your 
4th. It is very dangerous for police officers, extreme 
protection.
    I was struck by us saying that we want to do nothing. I 
gave 12 pages of testimony of things that I want to do.
    Mr. Jordan. Yeah.
    Ms. Muller. Everybody is talking about laws and things that 
I have ideas, and that is what I am saying is a big injustice 
is that you are not listening to me. The antigun people are so 
closed off to anything but their own agenda that they can't 
hear that we have measurable results in firearms education and 
that we should be teaching our kids how to properly and safely 
be around firearms.
    It is just like water safety.
    Mr. Jordan. Well, Ms. Muller, you are doing great. I 
promised my colleague and friend Mr. Massie I would give him 
some time. I am down to 40. So, Mr. Massie, you have my time.
    Mr. Massie. Thank you, Mr. Jordan.
    Ninty-four percent of all successful mass public shootings 
in the United States since 1950 have occurred in places where 
the average citizen is banned from possessing guns. These 
attackers are evil. They might be crazy, but they aren't 
stupid. They look for vulnerable victims. This gets back to my 
prior point that Republicans want to save lives.
    One of the things that we have noticed in the data is 
school shootings have gone up in the last decade, but the 
entirety of that increase in percentage has occurred in schools 
that do not allow teachers to carry firearms.
    There are 20 states in this union that allow, in some form 
or another, teachers to carry firearms. They haven't had, with 
the exception of gang violence outside of school hours, or a 
suicide, they have not had a single shooting. Not a single 
homicide at one of these schools that allows teachers to carry.
    So, this is another area where I think if we would pass my 
Safe Students Act, which would remove the ambiguity on the 
federal law that--by the way, there is a federal law that bans 
anybody from bringing a gun into the school. That hasn't 
worked. What it has done is made students less safe.
    So, I would like to see us pass the Safe Students Act. With 
that, I yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman's time has expired. We have 
been generous with the time for Members who are interested in 
this topic.
    I am delighted now to yield to the gentleman from Rhode 
Island, thank him for his leadership, Mr. Cicilline, for five 
minutes.
    Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for 
holding this very important hearing.
    The gun violence epidemic in this country that we face is 
like nowhere else in the world. In a recent national poll, 58 
percent of American adults reported that they or someone they 
care for has experienced gun violence in their lifetime.
    Americans are 25 times more likely than people in other 
nations to experience gun violence. We lose 30,000 Americans 
every single year to senseless gun violence, including 23,000 
Americans that die by suicide every year with a gun.
    There were almost 200 mass shootings in 2021 alone.
    We have a gun violence epidemic in this country. The 
answers are that we always hear from the opponents of common-
sense gun safety legislation are twofold:

          One is we can't pass a law that will stop every bit 
        of gun violence in the country, so we should do 
        nothing.
          Criminals are going to commit crimes anyway.

    Both of those things are true. That doesn't mean we don't 
have a responsibility to pass laws that will substantially 
reduce gun violence in this country. We know how to do it. We 
have researched it for years.
    I want to say to Mr. Guttenberg, to the pastor, thank you 
for being such incredible advocates. Every time you are asked 
to talk about this, I know you re-live this unbearably painful 
experience. You are for me a tremendous inspiration, and I 
thank you for being here.
    Mr. Skaggs, thank you for the great work that you do, and 
your organization does.
    While I don't have a question for Ms. Muller, one of the 
reasons that maybe people aren't listening to you, because when 
arguments are made that a deranged, seriously mentally ill 
person should get to keep a firearm which endangers the 
community in the off chance that that dangerously mentally ill 
person will need the firearm to defend himself, is lunacy. That 
is why I think we find it difficult to listen to some of the 
things you have suggested today.
    We know what we need to do: Universal background checks, 
closing the Charleston loophole, the assault weapons ban, red-
flag laws, ban the sale of ghost guns, make sure that people 
who buy ammunition go through a background check. These things 
will save lives.
    So, the first thing I have is for you, Mr. Skaggs. Can you 
explain what the danger is with respect to the background check 
system with ghost guns? Because there is evidence that gangs, 
and drug dealers, and criminal elements are assembling and 
getting guns, ghost guns, and how does that relate to the 
background check system?
    Mr. Skaggs. Well, the reason that ghost guns are so 
dangerous is because all the people you described are able to 
acquire these guns without a background check. At the end of 
the day, if you need to drill a couple of holes in an 
unfinished product to assemble your own gun at home, the gun 
functions just like an AR-15 that you bought fully assembled. 
The gun functions just like the Glock pistol that you bought 
fully assembled.
    Under a misinterpretation of federal law, these products 
because they are not 100 percent finished are sold without 
background checks. There is no serial number, no recordkeeping. 
That is why criminals are using them. That is why they are 
attractive to illegal gun traffickers.
    Mr. Cicilline. Thank you.
    Representative Goodwin, thank you for your good work. There 
has been a lot of discussion about this city or this State has 
great gun laws but it hasn't solved all the problems. Would you 
speak a little bit of why State regulation or local regulation 
of firearms isn't enough to prevent gun violence, and what role 
you believe the Federal Government must play for effective 
strategies to reduce gun violence in this country?
    Ms. Goodwin. Absolutely. We can cross State lines very 
easily. So, one State having one law that is different from the 
next-door neighbor isn't effective enough. We have such a 
patchwork quilt of regulations on our guns. So, we need a 
universal background check that is throughout the United States 
so someone can't go into Oklahoma and come into Texas with a 
gun, or vice versa.
    It is critical that we do the things that you mentioned: 
Universal background checks.
    I was just speaking with a federal firearms licensee who 
came across somebody who was selling these ghost guns. There is 
very little that he can do. I know it was brought up why don't 
some of these people get punished?
    Well, a lot of your gun store owners don't have a 
responsibility to turn that information in. They don't want to 
get involved in it. So, we have got to have better laws.
    Mr. Cicilline. Thank you.
    I just want to ask Mr. Guttenberg in my last 30 seconds. I 
know there was Ms. Muller said she was frustrated. I don't 
think by that she meant that you share the same frustration: 
You lost a child. You have come time and time again imploring 
the Congress of the United States to take action so that other 
children and other people across this country don't have their 
lives taken because of senseless gun violence. Do you have some 
final thoughts for this committee?
    Mr. Guttenberg. Well, you know what, I am going to go back 
to the ghost gun question and why this matters. Because another 
unfortunate friend of mine, Brian Muehlberger in California 
whose daughter Gracie died in the Saugus school shooting, of a 
ghost gun, just so everyone here knows why this work matters.
    After his daughter was killed, his daughter, his dead 
daughter went online and purchased a component to then make a 
ghost gun. That is how easy it was. Okay? So, anyone who thinks 
we shouldn't be doing better than that, Brian documented the 
whole entire thing.
    By the way, not only was she dead, she was I think 14- or 
15-years old when she did it, and was able to successfully 
achieve it.
    So, your work matters. I thank you. I thank you. I thank 
you. Let's keep doing this.
    Mr. Cicilline. Thank you. I yield back, Madam Chair.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman yields back. His time has 
expired.
    I am pleased to yield 5 minutes to the gentlelady from 
Texas, Ms. Escobar.
    Ms. Escobar. Thank you, Madam Chair. Many thanks to our 
panelists today.
    On August 3rd, 2019, El Paso was in the crosshairs. We were 
at the intersection of America's hate epidemic, fueled by anti-
immigrant rhetoric, rhetoric that is used, unfortunately, by 
colleagues by mine, and also fueled by the gun violence 
epidemic. Yes, ma'am, it is an epidemic.
    It was the deadliest targeted attack on Latinos in modern 
American history, an attack that created an entire region of 
gun violence survivors. Not just the victims and the survivors, 
but the health care professionals, the social workers, the 
therapists, the law enforcement officers, the journalists, and 
so many literally hundreds of thousands of others in our region 
suffering now from secondary trauma that is ongoing.
    This, the ongoing consequences of this kind of attack 
doesn't just include physical or mental health consequences, 
long-lasting, enduring consequences, but financial consequences 
as well.
    Just as an example, El Paso local taxpayers are funding 
both the prosecution and the public defense leading up to and 
during the trial process of the domestic terrorists who 
committed this horrific attack. That process, which includes 
jailing the domestic terrorists, all the experts required for 
both his prosecution and his defense, this will cost taxpayers 
in my community, the same people who are gun violence 
survivors, they will now have to pay over a million dollars as 
a result. This is just on the judicial process alone. This 
doesn't include the therapy. This doesn't include the ongoing 
surgeries and physical therapy. Everything associated with the 
consequences of that attack.
    Immediately after that, my governor, Greg Abbott, came into 
my community, spoke with some of the survivors, and he promised 
that there would be action. What has been an example of a 
miserable failure of leadership, he has moved in the other 
direction.
    We have heard during this hearing about permitless carry 
that has been approved in the State legislature. It feels as 
though for leaders, Republican leaders in my State there isn't 
enough bloodshed and misery across the board.
    Here in Congress, it is so incredibly frustrating to hear 
thoughts and prayers coming from my Republican colleagues, to 
hear them begin hearings with; my sympathies to the families, 
but, there is always a ``but.'' I don't know when we will 
finally get to the solutions which are so clear-cut, so easy, 
and so supported by a broad, a broad swath of American voters 
and communities all over the country.
    In fact, too frequently my colleagues are eager to continue 
to fuel the flames of division instead of partnering with us on 
common sense solutions. Gun violence prevention laws work. From 
1994 to 2004, there was a 25 percent decrease in gun massacres, 
and a 40 percent decrease in fatalities associated with assault 
weapons. Why? Because the federal assault weapons ban was in 
effect. They work. The statistics show it.
    I wish that we didn't have another party that was so 
detached from the truth, but we have one. So, this is why we 
can't seem to make progress.
    Pastor Grady, as I mentioned, there are longstanding 
consequences and effects that survivors have to face. Can you 
share with us what you and Michelle have had to live with, 
Michelle and your wife have had to live with since the massacre 
in 2019?
    Mr. Grady. Thank you so much, Congresswoman.
    Yes, we have had to deal with a myriad of issues from the 
mass shooting: The hospital visits, surgeries, psychological, 
emotional trauma, and trying to make sense out of what actually 
happened here in the City of El Paso, and why hatred seemed to 
be the call word of that particular day.
    We have had to struggle with watching Michelle this year 
having to rehabilitate. She is still in a rehabilitative state. 
How it has impacted our community, because we adopted a slogan, 
``El Paso Strong,'' but our strength comes from the reality 
that our legislators have also a responsibility to make common 
sense gun legislation and look at mental health issues, and to 
provide resources, community-based violence intervention 
programs. So, we have had to deal with a myriad of issues.
    I am grateful to say that Michelle has risen to the 
challenge. My wife and I, we continue to, and our family, we 
continue to support her. Because of my work with Crime 
Survivors for Safety and Justice we hear from other families in 
our city that are still reeling from the slaughter that 
happened in our city.
    We are determined to continue to press for common sense gun 
legislation to make available resources for those who are still 
suffering to heal the broken hearted, and to reach out to the 
least, the lost, the left out, and the disenfranchised. So, we 
continue to be an advocate for strong policies limiting access 
to guns, and all those issues.
    Our families continue to gain strength from the hope that 
this Committee is doing now.
    Thank you so much.
    Ms. Escobar. Thank you, Pastor Grady. You, Mr. Guttenberg, 
and so many other survivors deserve justice and action.
    Madam Chair, thank you. I yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    Mr. Cicilline. Madam Chair, I have a unanimous consent 
request.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. The gentleman is recognized.
    Mr. Cicilline. Just to further support Congresswoman 
Escobar's presentation, I would ask unanimous consent that this 
graph, which was printed in the Washington Post, entitled gun 
massacres fell during the assault weapons ban. This shows the 
gun massacres both before and after the ban, a considerable 
increase.
    Also, ask unanimous consent to inject into the record a 
fact check which determines that AR-50 assault weapons were 
used in 11, or 10 of the last 11 mass shootings in this 
country.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The information follows:]



      

             MR. CICILLINE FOR THE RECORD

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    Ms. Jackson Lee. I now recognize Congresswoman Bush for 
five minutes.
    Ms. Bush. Thank you for convening this important hearing.
    People in my district are no strangers to gun violence. 
This year alone we have had 73 homicides just in the City of 
St. Louis, with a population of less than 300,000 people, 
countless incidents of domestic violence, child abuse, and 
other forms of traumatic community violence. For years we have 
watched our neighborhoods, our schools, parks, and 
infrastructure underfunded or actively defunded.
    My hometown has been devastated by a lack of access to 
trauma prevention and mental health services. At the same time, 
Black and Brown communities in my--people in our community are 
disproportionately impacted by mass incarceration, mass 
deportations, and over-policing.
    We must expand our understanding of gun violence, as well 
as propose solutions to attack gun control as a social issue 
rather than political. Preventing gun violence means 
prioritizing the well-being of our communities by bolstering 
social programs and providing resources and support for those 
who need it the most.
    Pastor Grady, I extend my sincere sympathy to you and your 
family for the trauma you endured following the El Paso 
massacre. I thank you for being here this week on behalf of the 
countless victims of gun violence who have endured a similar 
fate.
    In the interests of preventing gun violence before it 
happens, can you speak to utility of community violence 
prevention programs?
    Mr. Grady. Yes. I believe the community-based violence 
intervention programs really have a proven track record of 
being effective on vitally ensuring the safety of our 
communities. It is relationship-based, it is outreach 
strategies, it is working with law enforcement as well as with 
the faith-based community, and to educate and to provide 
resources, I mean human resources funding that we might be able 
to arrest some of the ills that continues to perplex our 
communities.
    One of the keys of achieving a more just and peaceful 
America would be focusing on significant investment of 
strategies that reduce violence, that brings communities 
together to expose the darkness, to offer the light.
    It is not just one particular thing that causes mass 
shootings. It is a community, it is a disease, that we are not 
at ease in our communities based on resources, and then 
incarceration rates. Again, and what happens once a person is 
released from an institutionalized places where they are 
supposed to be rehabilitated.
    As you know, I am from St. Louis. Many times, when someone 
is released from incarceration they drop them off maybe a block 
from where they picked them up. So, back into that environment 
consistently.
    So, I believe, again, that if we could continue to get 
funding for our community-based intervention programs, if we 
could continue to work with the faith-based community, and to 
invite our law enforcement agencies to be more community-based, 
we could begin to arrest this situation and circumstance.
    Thank you so much, Congresswoman.
    Ms. Bush. Oh, thank you. Thank you, Pastor Grady.
    Mr. Skaggs, as policy director of the Giffords Law Center 
can you speak to how these laws are applied in practice? 
Specifically, can you describe potential unintended 
consequences of these gun safety policies for Black and Brown 
communities who are often the ones that are disproportionately 
criminalized, and charged, and prosecuted for firearms, the 
unintended consequences?
    Mr. Skaggs. I think there are serious structural problems 
with our criminal justice system and mass incarceration in our 
country. All too often Black and Brown Americans bear the brunt 
of those structural problems.
    I think it is critically important that any of the policies 
that we are looking at, we look very carefully at enforcement 
to ensure even-handed, fair enforcement. There is a very, very 
long way to go.
    I think the policies we are talking about today are 
important steps forward to addressing this ongoing crisis. I 
think we need to pass the bills that we have been talking 
about.
    Ms. Bush. Thank you. I firmly believe we have the power to 
transform our community with intentional and deliberate 
policies that encourage the overall health and the well-being 
of those who have the least. Partial solutions only serve to 
exacerbate these issues and increase the number of interactions 
between civilians and the police.
    It is time to fully fund and support community led and 
develop solutions to address the causes of trauma and of gun 
violence. We cannot police our way to public safety.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. We thank the gentlelady for her 
questioning.
    Both the Ranking Member and I have some closing remarks and 
inquiries that I may wish to make at this time. Then we will 
close the hearing.
    First, I would like to thank all of the Members who have 
come and have been thorough, concerned, and seeking information 
to be problem solvers. Thank you so very much.
    With that, let me yield to the Ranking Member.
    Mr. Biggs. I thank the Chair, and I appreciate your 
kindness in allowing me to take a few minutes to speak and try 
to clarify a few things.
    First, I want to talk about the Caniglia case, which is the 
case that was referenced by Ms. Muller. That case was a case 
involving a 4th amendment seizure by police officers of a gun. 
It was ruled 9-0 that there was a 4th amendment right by that 
individual to have that gun, and it was taken from this home 
without a search warrant, without correct due process.
    It was not directly a red-flag case, but it was a search 
and seizure, turned on 4th amendment rights, not 2nd amendment 
rights.
    Justice Alito in his opinion opined that, quote, and I am 
going to quote this, ``Provisions of red-flag laws may be 
challenged under the 4th Amendment.'' He set the stage for red-
flag laws being potentially violative of the 4th Amendment. 
That is something that we, everybody in here should be 
concerned about.
    I wanted to get to something that was in the written 
statement of Mr. Skaggs. I don't think it was alluded to. 
People talked all around it, but I just want to get to this 
point. It was on page 3 of your point. I enter it only because 
I think it is a point of interest because we were discussing 
suicides in here, and we have discussed suicides. I think you 
said in your written testimony, that they are about 60 percent. 
I think my data indicates it is 56 percent. I think Ms. Muller 
testified 55 percent.
    Nonetheless, suicide by gun is about somewhere between 55 
and 60 percent of all gun violence in the country. Guns are 
used in only 5 percent of suicide attempts. They are just much 
more effective than other forms of suicide. I think we all can 
acknowledge that. I just wanted to clarify that because I don't 
think it was clarified in the testimony.
    With regard to ghost guns, to manufacture a firearm that is 
intended for sale without a federal firearms license is already 
illegal. That is important to understand and remember. So, if 
someone is manufacturing a ghost gun for the purpose of sale, 
that violates already current federal law.
    I also have a number of pieces. Mr. Guttenberg mentioned 
that the original testimony that we saw of Ms. Hupp was, there 
were not 400 million guns in the United States at the time that 
she initially made that. I think that is right. I mean, it is 
accurate.
    She also testified three other times before Congress. So, 
the initial testimony, yes, that is the correct. She also 
testified, and I would like to submit two transcripts of her 
testimony which contains the same, in essence the same 
testimony she just gave that you saw earlier.
    Also, a document dated May 11th, 2021, called ``In these 11 
cases of firearms safety owner or others.''
    Another one from April 15th with the same title.
    Another one from March 10th saying, ``These 11 examples of 
defensive use undermine push for more gun control.''
    Another one from February 17th entitled, ``11 times a gun 
stopped matters from getting worse.''
    A document entitled, ``Undetectable firearms.''
    Another one entitled, ``Background information on so-called 
assault weapons.''
    Another one entitled, ``Another ban on high-capacity 
magazines.''
    Another one called, ``That time the CDC asked about 
defensive gun uses.''
    Another one entitled, ``Priorities for research to reduce 
the threat of firearm-related violence.''
    So, that is a series of documents. I would ask that they be 
admitted into the record.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Without objection, so ordered.
    [The information follows:]



      

              MR. BIGGS FOR THE RECORD

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    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    I want to make one last point and then I will--there is so 
much to talk about. I really am sincerely grateful that 
everybody came in. We may differ on getting to it. I think 
there are some root causes that if we were to let down our 
partisan guard and our defensiveness, we might be able to reach 
some kind of accord on some things that might work.
    Having said that, and I would refer people to Ms. Muller's 
written testimony which does have a series of proposed remedies 
that she advocates for. I remind everybody on this Committee 
that just a week ago our Chair wisely admonished our side from 
berating witnesses last week. Yet, today Chair Nadler attacked 
Ms. Muller.
    In his statement before he got in his questioning, before 
he went asking any questions, he berated Ms. Muller.
    Then I would say that my colleague from Rhode Island, Mr. 
Cicilline, in my opinion, he probably doesn't think so, but I 
think he misrepresented her view, and then followed up by 
saying that those points, which I think were misrepresented, 
were lunacy.
    We have had one witness to say that arguments that 
disagreed with his are ``B.S. arguments.''
    If you really want to get to a way to resolve issues, we 
need to move past this constant discarding of whatever the 
other side is saying. We are divided. There are two sides. 
There are probably places of finding accord. Defensiveness and 
ad hominem attacks are not successful.
    That is why I thank the gentlelady for reminding us of last 
week. I wanted to just take the opportunity to remind us of a 
little bit this week on some of the talkers that we heard from 
some of my colleagues on the other side.
    With that, Madam Chair, thank you again for the opportunity 
to take a moment. I yield back.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I thank the Ranking Member. I wanted to 
extend to you the courtesies. I would just say for both of us, 
when Members are out of the room it is probably challenging for 
me to accept critiques if they are not here to respond. I thank 
you for your clarification.
    I, too, have some concluding questions similar to take 
within my time frame here.
    I do want to remind everyone that we came today to discuss 
the unending crisis and to find essential steps to reduce gun 
violence and mass shootings. So, I have some quick round robin 
for the witnesses that I did not get a chance to indicate a 
question. I will be very succinct. I ask the witnesses to be 
so.
    I want to start with Representative Goodwin and to just ask 
her the question that the potential of permitless guns, will 
that, in your opinion, produce more death and more bloodshed?
    Ms. Goodwin. Absolutely, I believe so.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Would it make Texas a more dangerous 
state?
    Ms. Goodwin. I believe so.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you for your work. We appreciate it.
    With that, I want to introduce into the record a submission 
by Moms Demand Action, that works very hard, that has indicated 
the number of police associations, the Texas Municipal Police 
Association, Texas Police Chiefs, licensed carry instructors, 
faith leaders who are against this legislation, including Moms 
Demand Action. That will be submitted into the record very 
quickly.
    [The information follows:]



      

             MS. JACKSON LEE FOR THE RECORD

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    Ms. Jackson Lee. Pastor Grady, thank you. I am sure you 
know many of the pastors in my community. You answered it, but 
I would appreciate it if you would say it again.
    Your daughter still suffers from wounds that she was a 
victim of during that heinous shooting. Are those wounds 
including mental challenges? When I say that, her having to go 
through again, so these are long-lasting impacts when you are a 
gun violence victim? Pastor Grady.
    Mr. Grady. Yes, Congresswoman, that is correct. Those 
challenges every day Michelle goes through the struggle with 
the emotional, psychological baggage that came with this 
horrendous attempt to take her life. She works through it. She 
has an advocate, of course.
    She is also involved at using her story about her 
overcoming and being intentional about healing. So, yes, those 
will be a part of her life, and part of our life forever, I 
believe. She is working through it. She is courageous. She has 
a great support system here in place as well, as do the other 
survivors of this horrendous crime that took place in our city.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much. So, the pain of 
those families who have lost a loved one, and then the pain of 
those families who are now taking care of a victim who is 
resilient but still has this impact.
    Mr. Skaggs, if I might.
    Mr. Grady. Yes.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you so very much, Pastor Grady.
    If I might, I have been doing this for 27 years, longer, 
because I authored the first gun ordnance in the city of 
Houston that was ever past, and that was holding parents 
responsible for not storing their guns and generating the loss 
of little ones in the home.
    Can you present for me legally the 2nd amendment and its 
ability to stand alongside of those of us who are advocates for 
gun safety, are we arguing against the 2nd amendment when we 
argue against ghost guns, argue for storage, argue for 
background checks, argue for banning assault weapons? Is the 
2nd amendment compatible with gun safety?
    Mr. Skaggs. I very much believe that it is.
    In the 2008 decision, District of Columbia v. Heller, the 
Court made clear that while the 2nd amendment protects an 
individual right, it is not an absolute or unlimited right. It 
doesn't extend the right to carry any weapon whatsoever in any 
manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose
    The decision specifically made clear with regard to 
storage, that nothing in the 2nd amendment is in conflict with 
laws that prevent child accidents by requiring guns to be 
stored. That is in the Heller decision itself.
    It said a wide variety of additional laws were also fully 
constitutional and fully permissible.
    So, what we at Giffords are trying to do is find the 
evidence-based solutions that will both save lives, that the 
evidence shows us will save lives, and are also fully 
consistent with the right to keep and bear arms.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. I think there are many articles consistent 
with that.
    I would assume you would also add extreme risk orders are 
likewise not contrary to the 2nd Amendment. I understand 
working with my local law enforcement they are heavily 
concerned about individuals' conditions--with certain 
conditions having guns.
    Is that inconsistent?
    Mr. Skaggs. That is not inconsistent.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you.
    Let me submit into the record a study by Johns Hopkins that 
found strong support among gun owners and non-gun owners for 
more than twenty gun-violence prevention policies, including 
extreme risk orders, protection orders.
    I will submit that into the record, without objection.
    [The information follows:]



      

            MS. JACKSON LEE FOR THE RECORD

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    Ms. Jackson Lee. Then I want to take note of a renowned 
expert, David Hemingway, not that Hemingway but David 
Hemingway, that noted rather than rely on the blame game, the 
public health approach to reducing gun violence seeks to bring 
people and institutions together to get to work on the problem. 
It invites everyone to join the effort as part of the solution.
    My Ranking Member made that in his final remarks. Then I am 
looking for us to be able to join together, maybe on the 
storage bill, or other bills that might be helpful.
    The scientific evidence indicates that all other things 
equal, places with stronger firearm laws have fewer gun 
problems and suffer fewer violent deaths than places with 
weaker laws.
    Let me conclude with you, Mr. Guttenberg. Let me indicate 
that your member, who has been so much a champion, had rain 
delay. That is, of course, Mr. Deutch, who is a member of this 
committee, and extends his best wishes by way of his staff. I 
want that to be noted on the record.
    You suffered an unspeakable pain, Congresswoman McBath as 
well, children being lost, another child dealing with it but 
living his full life. How do you speak to those who would 
suggest that your pain and advocacy is anti-police, that you 
are a defund the police advocate, and that you cannot see the 
value of good policing, good police conduct?
    I know there were some, there are long issues that we could 
talk about response and schools, but I want you to talk about 
your pain as we conclude this hearing, and that you find--I 
don't want to put words in your mouth--that your work is not 
inconsistent with your ability to work with good policing, good 
police conduct, and support the idea of protect and serve, but 
also want to ensure that we end the proliferation of guns and 
bloodshed on the streets of America?
    Mr. Guttenberg. Thank you so much for asking me that.
    Anyone who follows my story knows I am actually very 
connected to law enforcement and our first responder community.
    Anyone who follows my story knows my brother died, as have 
many first responders, because of his service in 9/11.
    Anyone who follows my story has heard me talk about the law 
enforcement officers who have been and continue to be a part of 
my life.
    I will answer your question really simply: Gun safety is 
police safety. If we do more to deal with the reality of the 
guns and gun violence, we will save the lives of law 
enforcement, we will save the lives of the Members of our 
community. The less at-risk people feel, the less there is 
going to be a risk of gun violence.
    It gets back to the earlier question you also asked on 
extreme risk-protection orders. Law enforcement really 
appreciates them for a reason: Because it does help them take 
weapons from those who intend harm to others. Had extreme risk-
protection orders been in place before the Parkland shooting, 
it is likely that shooting never would have happened. It is the 
reason we passed it in Florida three weeks after Parkland.
    So, what I would say to anyone who would suggest that 
because I believe in gun safety, that I have some aversion to 
law enforcement, I would simply argue I actually care more 
about their lives than you do.
    Ms. Jackson Lee. We care about the experiences that you 
have had as well.
    As I close this hearing, we have many views in America: 
People who believe that police should be reimagined--and I 
respect them all; and funds should be used to help end violence 
and promote community groups. That does not suggest that they 
are defunding, they are imaging, reimagining. We have all 
voices in this room.
    Today's hearing was about ending the crisis, senseless 
crisis of gun violence. That is what I hope we have garnered. 
We will look at everyone's testimony and find common ground. I 
hope my Ranking Member will take his own words, which is to 
find a way that we can work together.
    I thank all the Members that were kind enough to stay. I 
thank all the witnesses that have presented us with an 
excellent record that we can proceed on. I think the real 
question now is for us to get the job done.
    Thank you so very much. This meeting is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 2:08 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]



      

                                APPENDIX

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