[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                  ENTREPRENEURSHIP IN THE NEW ECONOMY

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
                             UNITED STATES
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                    ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS

                             FIRST SESSION

                               __________

                              HEARING HELD
                            NOVEMBER 3, 2021

                               __________

[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
                               

            Small Business Committee Document Number 117-039
             Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
             
                              __________

                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE                    
45-954                     WASHINGTON : 2022                     
          
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                   HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS

                 NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman
                          JARED GOLDEN, Maine
                          JASON CROW, Colorado
                         SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
                         KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
                        DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
                         MARIE NEWMAN, Illinois
                       CAROLYN BOURDEAUX, Georgia
                         TROY CARTER, Louisiana
                          JUDY CHU, California
                       DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
                       ANTONIO DELGADO, New York
                     CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
                          ANDY KIM, New Jersey
                         ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
              BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri, Ranking Member
                         ROGER WILLIAMS, Texas
                        JIM HAGEDORN, Minnesota
                        PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
                        DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
                        CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York
                       ANDREW GARBARINO, New York
                         YOUNG KIM, California
                         BETH VAN DUYNE, Texas
                         BYRON DONALDS, Florida
                         MARIA SALAZAR, Florida
                      SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin

                 Melissa Jung, Majority Staff Director
            Ellen Harrington, Majority Deputy Staff Director
                     David Planning, Staff Director
                            
                            C O N T E N T S

                           OPENING STATEMENTS

                                                                   Page
Hon. Nydia Velazquez.............................................     1
Hon. Blaine Luetkemeyer..........................................     3

                               WITNESSES

Ms. Ellie Diop, Chief Executive Officer, Eliza Revella Consulting 
  Services, Los Angeles, CA......................................     6
Mr. Andrew Fogaty, Executive Director, 36Squared Business 
  Incubator, Chicago, IL.........................................     8
Ms. Stephanie E. DeVane, Vice President of Entrepreneurship & 
  Business Development, National Urban League, New York, NY......     9
Mr. Raymond Keating, Chief Economist, Small Business & 
  Entrepreneurship Council (SBE Council), Vienna, VA.............    11

                                APPENDIX

Prepared Statements:
    Ms. Ellie Diop, Chief Executive Officer, Eliza Revella 
      Consulting Services, Los Angeles, CA.......................    39
    Mr. Andrew Fogaty, Executive Director, 36Squared Business 
      Incubator, Chicago, IL.....................................    42
    Ms. Stephanie E. DeVane, Vice President of Entrepreneurship & 
      Business Development, National Urban League, New York, NY..    44
    Mr. Raymond Keating, Chief Economist, Small Business & 
      Entrepreneurship Council (SBE Council), Vienna, VA.........    50
Questions for the Record:
    None.
Answers for the Record:
    None.
Additional Material for the Record:
    Airbnb Report................................................    68
    Kauffman Foundation..........................................    94

 
                  ENTREPRENEURSHIP IN THE NEW ECONOMY

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 2021

                  House of Representatives,
               Committee on Small Business,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The Committee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in Room 
2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Nydia M. Velazquez 
[chairwoman of the Committee] presiding.
    Present: Representatives Velazquez, Golden, Crow, Davids, 
Phillips, Newman, Chu, Evans, Delgado, Houlahan, Andy Kim, 
Craig, Luetkemeyer, Williams, Stauber, Meuser, Tenney, 
Garbarino, Young Kim, Van Duyne, and Salazar.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Good morning. I call this hearing to 
order.
    Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a 
recess at any time.
    I would like to begin by noting some important 
requirements. Standing House and Committee rules and practice 
will continue to apply during hybrid proceedings.
    All Members are reminded that they are expected to adhere 
to these standing rules, including decorum. House regulations 
require Members to be visible through a video connection 
throughout the proceedings, so please keep your cameras on.
    Also, remember to remain muted until you are recognized to 
minimize background noise. If you have to participate in 
another proceeding, please exit this one and log back in later.
    In the event a Member encounters technical issues that 
prevent them from being recognized for their questioning, I 
will move to the next available Member of the same party and 
will recognize that Member at the next appropriate time slot 
provided they have returned to the proceeding.
    For those Members and staff physically present in the 
committee room today, in accordance with the Attending 
Physician's most recent guidance, all Members and staff who 
attend this hybrid hearing in person will be required to wear 
masks in the hearing room.
    Furthermore, all Members and staff who have not been fully 
vaccinated must also maintain six-foot social distancing from 
others.
    With that said, Members will be allowed to briefly remove 
their masks if they have been recognized to speak.
    With that, let me start my opening statement.
    Since the 1980s, America has largely been in a slump when 
it comes to new business formation. This fact rarely generates 
headlines or garners attention in the media, but its 
implications are severe.
    New businesses make up the foundation of our economy. 
Entrepreneurs that launch enterprises and products are the 
catalysts for American innovation.
    The statistics paint a startling picture of the state of 
our country's entrepreneurial environment over the past four 
decades.
    In 1980, 12 percent of employers were new businesses. By 
2018, this figure had dropped to 8 percent. In 1982, 38 percent 
of all businesses were new firms, compared to just 29 percent 
in 2018.
    In 2018, larger corporations were doing quite well, but 
small firms were exiting the market at a higher rate than they 
were being started.
    This was the state of American startups in March of 2020 
when the pandemic began to intensify. As COVID spread and 
businesses closed, our country was staring down an 
unprecedented economic crisis.
    Using the Great Recession and its aftermath as a guide, 
experts predicted that the pandemic would continue to drop the 
rate of business startups to new lows. Despite the dire 
forecast, American entrepreneurship didn't crater during the 
pandemic--it flourished.
    In 2020, Americans filed paperwork to start 4.3 million new 
businesses. This figure represents a 24-percent increase from 
2019, and by far, the highest number over the past 15 years.
    Many of these businesses didn't look like traditional small 
firms. As the pandemic drove commerce online, these new 
enterprises were primarily concentrated in the nonstore, online 
retail sector.
    The entrepreneurs starting these new businesses also 
reflected the diversity of the American population in the 21st 
century. Black and Hispanic communities led the way in 
launching new companies.
    Young entrepreneurs dealt with the tough job market by 
pivoting toward entrepreneurship to develop businesses and 
products to serve their communities.
    No one factor fully account for this entrepreneurship boom. 
Layoffs, a favorable credit market, and federal stimulus 
efforts all helped lay the ground work for this record rise in 
new businesses.
    So today I hope that this hearing allows us to better 
understand this entrepreneurial revival and apply those lessons 
moving forward. The pandemic disrupted many areas of American 
life, not least of which being the nature of work.
    The challenges facing this new generation of entrepreneurs 
aren't identical to the problems of the pre-pandemic economy. 
We must work to understand these new challenges and find ways 
Congress can better support them in the post-pandemic world.
    It is also vital that we grasp why entrepreneurship 
flourished during COVID and what can we do to sustain that 
increase in the future. COVID closed countless small businesses 
and left many others on the brink of disaster.
    Yet, at the same time, it is possible the pandemic set in 
motion a revitalization of American entrepreneurship. Today I 
look forward to hearing from our witnesses about the journey 
that led them to start a business and how this committee can 
support them and others like them in the future.
    I now would like to yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. 
Luetkemeyer, for his opening statement.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you, Madam Chair, and good morning. 
We meet today for a hearing on entrepreneurship in the new 
economy. Regrettably as we have all witnessed over the past 
year, the outlook for our nation's entrepreneurs is dismal.
    Small businesses, small business owners, entrepreneurs, and 
startups are known to be resilient and skillful, easily 
adapting to changing conditions. They are fast and can adjust 
to meet the needs of their customers. They can pivot with speed 
and capture market share.
    These small business attributes, along with vigilant risk-
taking and investing, are key ingredients to a growing economy.
    The COVID pandemic, coupled with Biden and the Democrats' 
failed economic policies have brought severe economic 
challenges to main street USA. Entrepreneurs across the 
country, from both coasts to the middle of the country, face 
incredible obstacles.
    This fall economic growth ground to a halt as all 
businesses confronted by severe supply chain disruptions, 
ongoing labor shortages, skyrocketing inflation, higher costs 
of nearly everything, and threats of tax increases from the 
Democrats.
    To follow, an overreaching vaccine mandate has been 
proposed with very limited information.
    Small business owners and the entrepreneurs require clear 
and concise rules and information to make business decisions. 
Uncertainty can't be part of their business model. Unknown next 
steps bring their planning to a complete halt.
    With each of these issues coming to the forefront, let's 
review them. We can begin with supply chain disruptions and 
higher costs. Small businesses, which operate on thin margins, 
have been shocked by recent supply chain failures.
    NFIB September Economic Trends survey found 90 percent of 
small businesses have been affected by these disruptions, and 
nearly half of all small businesses experience product delays 
from their suppliers.
    With empty shelves continuing to be a common sight in our 
local communities, the fourth quarter and the holiday season 
could be a rough stretch for the nation's job creators.
    At the same time, demand for goods has increased, pushing 
prices even higher.
    Labor. Across all industries, labor shortages have hindered 
the ability of companies to get products made, shipped, 
unpacked, and transported. Once the products and goods have 
arrived, the businesses often do not have a full staff ready to 
meet and greet customers.
    The Biden administration's worker shortage means that 
employers now have 10.4 million job openings. Let me repeat 
that: 10.4 million job openings, and no one willing to fill 
them. NFIB found 51 percent of small businesses have unfilled 
job openings, a staggering and record number.
    In addition, employers are facing record numbers of workers 
quitting their jobs. And, according to the Federal Reserve, the 
pandemic has resulted in a record 3 million early retirements.
    This is a dreadful situation as we head into what should be 
the busiest time of the year for businesses: the holiday 
season.
    Inflation. Despite the Biden administration's denials, it 
is very clear that inflation is no longer temporary or 
transitory. In October, the Department of Labor reported that 
the Consumer Price Index, one trusted measure of inflation, is 
now at a 13-year high of 5.4 percent.
    Even the Federal Reserve Chairman, who has insisted for 
months that inflation is transitory, recently admitted that 
inflation is expected to remain high well into next year. 
Overall, inflation means higher prices for small businesses, 
along with higher prices for their customers.
    Tax increases. Could there be a worse time to threaten 
entrepreneurs and small firms with tax increases? In February, 
President Biden said the U.S. had lost more than 400,000 
businesses since the pandemic began, and many more were at 
risk.
    Yet the Biden administration and congressional Democrats 
have proposed a huge number of tax increases to fund their 
massive spending programs. We are not sure, however, which tax 
increases are still on the table, although it seems to be 
changing by the minute. But surely the last thing small 
businesses need coming out of a pandemic are tax increases.
    Employer vaccine mandates. In September, President Biden 
announced that his administration is developing a regulation 
that would require all private sector employers employed by a 
business with a hundred or more employees to be vaccinated or 
submit to weekly testing.
    According to the Society of Human Resource Management, 89 
percent of employers fear at least some of their employees will 
quit as a result. The uncertainty surrounding these rules is 
putting the brakes on small businesses as they try to get back 
on their feet and serve their communities.
    A labor shortage crisis, accompanied by an employer vaccine 
mandate, are a grave threat to American small business 
prosperity. How much more can small businesses withstand? Taken 
alone, each of these policies is devastating, but taken 
together, their impact is likely to have serious, long-term 
consequences for entrepreneurship.
    Madam Chairwoman, we should be enacting policies that will 
empower entrepreneurs. Attentive risk-taking and investing are 
what will grow our economy. However, entrepreneurs are facing 
an economic storm that is preventing this progress.
    I appreciate our witnesses being with us today. I look 
forward to the testimony.
    With that, Madam Chair, I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Luetkemeyer. The 
gentleman yields back.
    I would like to take a moment to explain how this hearing 
will proceed. Each witness will have 5 minutes to provide a 
statement, and each Committee Member will have 5 minutes for 
questions. Please ensure that your microphone is on when you 
begin speaking and that you return to mute when finished.
    With that, I would like to introduce our witnesses. Our 
first witness today is Ms. Ellie Diop, CEO of Ellie Talks 
Money. Ms. Diop was laid off from her corporate job months 
before the pandemic. After submitting over 50 job applications, 
Ms. Diop capitalized on her $1,200 stimulus check and 
entrepreneurial spirit to create her business.
    Ellie Talks Money is an online coaching and consulting 
service for aspiring and established business owners that was 
able to build a net worth of over a million dollars in less 
than 1 year.
    Welcome, Ms. Diop.
    I would like to yield to Ms. Newman to introduce our second 
witness.
    Ms. NEWMAN. Thank you, Madam Chair and Ranking Member. I am 
proud to introduce Mr. Andrew Fogaty, a resident of the great 
State of Illinois and from my district. He currently serves as 
both the director of the Illinois Small Business Development 
Center at the Greater Southwest Development Corporation and as 
executive director of the 36Squared Business Incubator, both in 
Chicago.
    In addition, he serves as a mentor with the Gallery 
Incubator in Evanston, Illinois.
    For over 12 years, Andrew has led local economic 
development initiatives, help launch nearly 70 companies, 
served as an adviser to more than 300 others, and facilitated 
more than $40 million in funding for his clients.
    In 2017, he founded an all-abilities business incubator in 
the 36Squared building on the Chicago southwest side and was 
selected at the 2020 State Star by the Illinois Small Business 
Development Center Network.
    I just have to tell you on a personal note that Andrew is 
quite amazing, and we are so proud to have him in our district. 
But it is a pleasure to welcome Mr. Fogaty to speak today.
    Thank you, Chairwoman, and I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady yields back.
    Our third witness is Ms. Stephanie DeVane, the Vice 
President of entrepreneurship and business development at the 
National Urban League. The National Urban League is a historic 
civil rights organization dedicated to economic empowerment of 
historically underserved urban communities.
    As the Vice President of entrepreneurship and business 
development, Ms. DeVane manages, oversees, and advocates on 
behalf of 12 entrepreneurship centers located in key 
affiliates. In this capacity, her division supports these 
affiliate small business programs through capacity building and 
programming sub grants and by providing them with training and 
technical assistance.
    Welcome, Ms. DeVane.
    I would now like to yield to the Ranking Member, Mr. 
Luetkemeyer, to introduce our final witness.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Our next witness is Raymond J. Keating. Mr. Keating is a 
chief economist with the Small Business and Entrepreneurship 
Council, or SBE. He writes and speaks on a wide range of issues 
impacting the entrepreneurship sector of the economy.
    His areas of expertise include taxation, monetary policy, 
federal, state, and local budgets, regulation, and economics. 
He has written hundreds of articles with pieces published in 
The Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, Boston Globe, Chicago 
Tribune, and Investor's Business Daily.
    Mr. Keating holds an M.A. in economics from New York 
University and an MBA in banking and finance from Hofstra 
University, and a B.S. in business administration and economics 
from St. Joseph's College.
    I want to thank all the witnesses for joining us today.
    And, with that, Madam Chair, I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Luetkemeyer.
    Thank you all for being here today.
    Ms. Diop, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

   STATEMENTS OF ELLIE DIOP, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, ELIZA 
 REVELLA CONSULTING SERVICES, LOS ANGELES, CA; ANDREW FOGATY, 
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, 36SQUARED BUSINESS INCUBATOR, CHICAGO, IL; 
   STEPHANIE E. DEVANE, VICE PRESIDENT OF ENTREPRENEURSHIP & 
BUSINESS DEVELOPMENT, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE, NEW YORK, NY; AND 
      RAYMOND KEATING, CHIEF ECONOMIST, SMALL BUSINESS & 
       ENTREPRENEURSHIP COUNCIL (SBE COUNCIL) VIENNA, VA.

                    STATEMENT OF ELLIE DIOP

    Ms. DIOP. Thank you. Good morning, Members of the Small 
Business Committee--oh, there we go. Sounds a lot better. Good 
morning, Members of the Small Business Committee. I am very 
grateful to be here. My name is Ellie Diop, and I am CEO and 
founder of Eliza Revella Consulting Services, also known as 
Ellie Talks Money. I have a business coaching and consulting 
company that I started in the pandemic.
    So my path and journey to entrepreneurship is not like many 
others. I am also a mother of four, and as you mentioned in 
introducing me, I wanted to get another job after being laid 
off before the pandemic began. And I did apply feverishly to 
several jobs, over 53 in fact.
    And my experience is one in corporate America. I have 
served as director of sales for over 3 years, but I was not 
able to find employment. And so, when the stimulus checks, when 
I knew that they were coming, I began to make a plan on 
starting a business with that small--what I was looking at as a 
capital investment.
    And I conducted market research and really analyzed what 
did other businesses need at this time, what--where are 
businesses struggling, you know, and I did this market research 
by leveraging social media.
    And so I came to the determination that other small 
businesses really needed assistance in sales, which is 
something I was very good at. They needed assistance in finding 
funding, something I also knew how to do.
    And so, when I received the stimulus check, I put it to use 
and purchased things like a website, a domain, a new phone, a 
ring light, all things that I knew I would be able to use to 
build a brand and build a following online.
    And so, with consistency, dedication, and posting content 
on social media about three to five times per day, in 10 
months, I was able to net $1.3 million. And that is sheerly by 
having the access to entrepreneurship.
    So I share with my clients all of the time, and as their 
coach, I am giving them the tools and strategies that they need 
to scale their own businesses by leveraging what we have, which 
is the internet and social media.
    And, because I started this with, you know, $1,200, I am 
always reminding them that you don't need a large sum of money 
or a large capital investment in order to make a lot of money 
in your business. It is just about utilizing the right 
strategies. It is about staying committed. It is about staying 
dedicated and leveraging what we have available to us.
    So now I am very grateful that the business has grown, and 
I have been able to employ, myself, five people. It is a very, 
you know, amazing turn of events, being that it was so 
challenging for me to find a job. Now I am in a position where 
I can actually create jobs.
    And my goal for 2022 is to increase our staff to 10, 
hopefully, and to continue from there, but definitely where the 
biggest success in this entire accomplishment truly is, is just 
that I have been able to show and inspire people, over 300,000 
people, that if I can do this, so can you.
    You know, a lot of--there is a misconception that 
entrepreneurship, or the ability to start a business, is one 
that begins with a silver spoon in someone's mouth. But I think 
that my journey has been able to show people that, regardless 
of where you are starting with, even as, you know, a mother, 
just coming out of a divorce, single mother trying to find a 
job, you can actually take the circumstance that you are given 
and completely change the narrative and change the scenario.
    So we live in a time where entrepreneurship is truly more 
accessible than ever, and given the right tools, small business 
owners can absolutely repeat what I have been able to do.
    Now, you don't need to have money to pay for advertising. 
You don't need to always have a lot of connections. You need to 
have grit. You need to have resilience. You need to have 
dedication and commitment to what product you want to sell.
    And now, with platforms like social media--Instagram, 
Facebook, Twitter--all platforms that I have leveraged, you are 
able to go directly to your audience and make the sale.
    We don't have to go through all of these complicated 
channels, which actually gives small businesses a higher 
opportunity to thrive and survive than we may have had 4 or 5 
or 6 years ago.
    So I am very grateful to be able to share my experience and 
my success and entrepreneurship with you all and thank you.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Ms. Diop for that 
inspiring story, it is really rewarding to know that there is a 
role for the federal government to play, particularly by 
empowering women like yourself.
    Now I will recognize Mr. Fogaty for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Fogaty, please unmute yourself.
    Mr. FOGATY. I was afraid that would happen. Good morning, 
Chairwoman Velazquez----
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. We cannot hear you, Mr. Fogaty.
    Mr. FOGATY. Really? I am unmuted. Can you hear me now?
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Mr. Fogaty, we are going to correct 
the technical issues, and now we will recognize Ms. DeVane.
    Ms. DeVANE. Chairwoman Velazquez, Ranking Member----
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Ms. DeVane, please unmute yourself.
    Ms. DeVANE. I am also unmuted.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The problem is here.
    Mr. FOGATY. I should say I can hear Ms. DeVane.
    Ms. DeVANE. And I can hear Mr. Fogaty.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. We are going to take a brief recess 
until HRS address the issue.
    [Recess.]
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. This hearing is called to order.
    Now we recognize Mr. Fogaty for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF ANDREW FOGATY

    Mr. FOGATY. Thank you very much and good morning, 
Chairwoman Velazquez, and distinguished Members of the 
Committee. Again, my name is Andrew Fogaty. I am with the 
36Squared Business Incubator in Chicago.
    I also oversee two of the Illinois Small Business 
Development Center locations, one at 36Squared and one at the 
Greater Southwest Development Corporation. Both locations are 
also part of the City of Chicago's Neighborhood Business 
Development Center Program.
    What this means is that myself and my colleagues, both 
across the city and the State, provide business assistance, 
training, and advising to area residents at no charge.
    I want to thank Congress for inviting me to participate in 
this hearing and also for the quick action that was taken last 
year with programs like the Economic Injury Disaster Loan, 
Paycheck Protection Program, and CARES Act funding.
    Given that this was the first time that an unforeseen 
disaster affected virtually every business in the country at 
the same time, I think that the actions of Congress and the SBA 
were key to averting what could have been a much more serious 
crisis.
    These programs continue to help save businesses across the 
country, so again thank you for that.
    That being said, the small business landscape has changed, 
and serious challenges remain. The subject today is 
``Entrepreneurship in the New Economy,'' and my testimony will 
focus on four main areas: access to capital, reducing the 
digital divide, manufacturing, and working with underserved 
communities.
    Access to capital for small businesses, and especially 
startups, remains a challenge. In fact, if a business needs a 
small loan of $10- or $20,000, I am only aware of one bank in 
Chicago, CIBC, that actively markets programs to meet that 
need.
    There are, of course, also some nonprofit lending options. 
However, these are typically at a higher interest rate and less 
desirable than a bank loan.
    I would like to see more banks offering micro lending and 
startup funding, and I would like to see the reporting process 
for lenders streamlined to make small business lending more 
attractive.
    It is my understanding that there is legislation now that 
may--on the books right now--that may significantly increase 
reporting requirements in all small business loan applications, 
and I am concerned that this may negatively impact my clients.
    Access to capital is key to supporting entrepreneurship in 
the new economy.
    Next, I would like to address computer literacy. The 
digital divide is real, especially in underserved communities. 
Today, computer literacy and basic business training are as key 
to an entrepreneur's success as being able to read or write was 
20 years ago.
    We need to do better with this by making basic computer 
skills training and business assistance programs widely 
available across the country.
    In fact, when CARES Act funding ends next fall, many small 
business development programs across the country will actually 
see a decrease in capacity, and this is a concern.
    Next, I would like to address manufacturing. Last year's 
difficulty in obtaining vital PPE supplies and this year's 
supply chain issues demonstrate a clear need to support our 
domestic manufacturing capabilities.
    Certainly a simplification of the federal procurement 
process would be a start.
    And, finally, I would like to discuss the underserved 
population. Here on Chicago's south side, we have a diverse and 
vibrant small business community, including a significant 
number of immigrant business owners who hold ITINs instead of 
Social Security numbers. Currently these business owners are 
shut out of most SBA lending programs.
    I certainly don't presume to jump into the immigration 
debate. However, if a business seeks to expand, buy equipment, 
a building, or create jobs, I would like to be able to present 
the same options to all my clients.
    Perhaps the most disadvantaged of the underserved 
populations are the disabled people. Advances in technology and 
making small business ownership--are making small business 
ownership a much more viable option for our disabled 
population.
    This is a trend that is only going to increase in the 
coming years. I would like to see more of an effort made to 
include these entrepreneurs into the wider business development 
world.
    Thank you again for having me, and I look forward to your 
questions.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Mr. Fogaty.
    Ms. DeVane, you are recognized for 5 minutes.

                STATEMENT OF STEPHANIE E. DEVANE

    Ms. DeVANE. Chairwoman Velazquez, Ranking Member 
Luetkemeyer, and Members of the House Committee on Small 
Business, thank you for the opportunity to testify at today's 
hearing titled ``Entrepreneurship in the New Economy.''
    My name is Stephanie DeVane, and I am the Vice President of 
Entrepreneurship and Business Development at the National Urban 
League. I bring you greetings on behalf of Marc Morial, our 
president and CEO.
    The National Urban League is a historic civil rights 
community-based organization dedicated to economic empowerment 
and the guarantee of civil rights for African Americans and 
other underserved communities in America.
    We are a national nonprofit intermediary and provide 
direct, comprehensive services that improve the lives of nearly 
2 million people each year. We are a network of 91 Urban League 
affiliates and the District of Columbia.
    In my role, I manage, oversee, and advocate on behalf of 12 
Urban League Entrepreneurship Centers, which provide 
management, counseling, mentoring, and training services for 
entrepreneurs looking to start, grow, or scale their business.
    While the typical client of the Entrepreneurship Center 
program is a low- to moderate-income African-American woman 
with an existing business, our centers also serve Caucasian, 
Hispanic, Asian-American entrepreneurs.
    In 2020, our centers helped approximately 23,928 
participants secure $108.6 million in financing and contract 
opportunities, as well as save or create 714 full- or part-time 
jobs through our counseling and training services.
    The COVID-19 pandemic and resulting economic disruption has 
disproportionately impacted minority businesses and also 
exacerbated existing structural inequities in small business 
lending.
    In April 2021, a Federal Reserve survey found that 
minority-owned businesses were simultaneously hardest hit by 
pandemic-related closures and were only half as likely as 
White-owned firms to receive the necessary Paycheck Protection 
Program small business relief funding they needed to pay their 
workers and stay afloat.
    For minority-owned business, the racial wealth gap and 
implicit bias have made securing access to capital exceedingly 
difficult.
    During the pandemic, our entrepreneurship centers conducted 
training, workshops, and counseling sessions through digital 
and telephonic means with clients. We hosted webinars to guide 
entrepreneurs experiencing cash flow issues through the 
disaster loan application process and provided links to 
resources to help entrepreneurs develop disaster recovery 
plans.
    From June 1, 2020, through May 31st of this year, with 
support from a CARES Act MBDA award, our centers helped 11,250 
businesses secure $137.6 million in financing and contract 
opportunities, as well as save or create 1,174 full- and part-
time jobs, with over 15,800 hours of counseling and over 33,000 
hours of training.
    Specifically, our services were directed at providing COVID 
relief to minority businesses lacking access to capital or with 
inadequate financial management practices and less flexible 
operating models.
    We also received support through the PepsiCo Foundation to 
run our Black Restaurant Accelerator Program which is helping 
keep the doors of small businesses and food-and-beverage 
industries open.
    One of the program's beneficiaries is Beaucoup Eats, a New 
Orleans neighborhood eatery that provides full-service catering 
and meal prep services. Here is what owner Keisha Reed had to 
say about the program: ``The grant from PepsiCo allowed us to 
purchase three tents, which meant we could serve at least 50 
people, and overhead costs were lowered. Given the current 72-
hour test and vaccine card mandate for inside eating and the 
inside reduction, we were only able to accommodate 6 to 10 
people on the inside at any given time. Without the assistance 
of the grant, we wouldn't be able to generate the revenue 
needed to stay in business during this ongoing pandemic.''
    I also note that the National Urban League was just awarded 
a $5 million Small Business Administration Community Navigator 
Award, which will allow us, through 25 Urban League affiliates, 
to reduce barriers for minority-owned businesses through 
critical support and resources.
    Last year, Black-owned businesses saw a surge in sales 
corresponding to the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement. 
However, as public support for it began to stagnate, business 
owners saw sales level off.
    In the new economy, Black-owned small businesses continue 
to experience lower paths returning to pre-pandemic employment 
levels and face a more uncertain future recovery relative to 
their peers.
    Many Black-owned businesses continue to lack access to 
capital needed to fully recover due to implicit bias and the 
legacy of racism.
    To ensure a full economic return for minority-owned 
businesses in this new economy, we urge Congress to enact civil 
rights protections and guardrails that will reduce any racial 
disparities in access in capital, while increasing access to 
prime government contract opportunities, mentorship, minority 
incubator support, and technical skills training.
    Please see my submitted testimony for more detailed 
recommendations.
    On behalf of the National Urban League, thank you for the 
opportunity to testify. I look forward to your questions.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, Ms. DeVane.
    Now we recognize Mr. Keating for 5 minutes.

                  STATEMENT OF RAYMOND KEATING

    Mr. KEATING. Chairwoman Velazquez, Ranking Member 
Luetkemeyer, Members of the Committee, thank you for hosting 
this important hearing.
    My name is Raymond Keating. I am chief economist with the 
Small Business and Entrepreneurship Council. For more than 26 
years, SBE Council has worked to strengthen and improve the 
ecosystem for startups and small business growth.
    As you all know, entrepreneurs take on risks and 
uncertainty in order to innovate, introduce new products and 
services, and find better ways to do things. And, by doing so, 
they boost productivity, enhance competition and choice, fuel 
economic growth, and create new jobs.
    Indeed, entrepreneurs, along with the investors who are 
essential for funding startups and business growth, are central 
to the economic income and employment growth we all want to see 
happen.
    For our economy, in my written testimony, I look to key 
indicators on where we stand right now. By the second quarter 
of 2021, entrepreneurs, investors, businesses, and workers had 
worked to get the economy back to where it was pre-pandemic.
    However, we still face the task of getting back to where we 
should be, given the lost growth, and then maintaining strong 
growth thereafter.
    Unfortunately, 2 percent real GDP growth, which is where we 
stood in the third quarter, is anemic under normal 
circumstances. At 2 percent growth, U.S. economic 
underperformance will be extended far into the future.
    We need to do much better, and that will depend 
significantly on the state of entrepreneurship.
    So I go on to look at various measures of entrepreneurship 
in my testimony. It is clear that entrepreneurship was lagging 
well before the pandemic. It suffered when COVID hit, and it 
has struggled to come back in many ways.
    But hope can be found in the trend in new business 
applications. After suffering big declines when the pandemic 
first struck, the number of business applications quickly 
skyrocketed beyond where they had been prior to the pandemic 
and have remained at elevated levels.
    The historical relationship between such applications and 
actual business formations indicates that they are, again, as 
reason for hope. Although, it must be noted that a pandemic 
economy is uncharted waters.
    At the same time, the expansion of what many call the gig 
economy would support this data, as would more people 
positively considering entrepreneurship due to their pandemic 
experiences, as we have heard here already.
    As for challenges for entrepreneurs, there are many, some 
being evergreens and others specific to our current situation. 
For example, a key evergreen, again, is financing. We have 
heard people talk about that already.
    As businesses reach various stages, though, angel investors 
and venture capitalists, for example, become vital for 
providing the funds to fuel innovation and growth.
    And regarding our current situation--again, in my written 
testimony, I explore the labor shortages, supply chain 
challenges, and inflation--these are all quite real and quite 
significant issues, creating problems, risks, and 
uncertainties.
    Of course, there are also expanding opportunities for 
entrepreneurs. I highlight two areas in my written testimony. 
The first is technology. Whether generating new products, 
improving and enhancing production, and/or expanding 
distribution, technological advancements in areas like 
computer, digital, and broadband technologies, for example, 
have served to expand opportunities for entrepreneurs.
    Social media, again, as we have heard, for instance, has 
served to help create and transform businesses.
    A second major area of expanding opportunities for 
entrepreneurs is the international marketplace. Technology 
advancements coupled with economic growth abroad have opened 
doors in the international arena for entrepreneurs.
    Keep in mind that some 95 percent of the world's consumers 
are outside the United States, and as the data show, 
international markets are not the near exclusive domain of 
large businesses, as many assume.
    Finally, in this, getting the public policy mix right is 
always critical for our economy and for entrepreneurship, but 
getting it right becomes even more critical as we struggle to 
emerge from a pandemic economy.
    I just offer what I call a pro-entrepreneur policy 
framework in my testimony: Avoiding tax increases and providing 
substantive and permanent tax relief that enhance incentives 
for starting up, building, and investing in businesses.
    Emphasizing regulatory relief, not imposing additional 
regulatory burdens. If anyone understands the cost of 
regulation, it would be small business owners, especially as 
those costs mount with more and more regulations imposed, you 
know, regulation after regulation.
    Advancing free trade is critical. Reducing--meaning, you 
know, reducing government-imposed cost on trade such as tariffs 
is pro-growth, and the U.S. really needs to reclaim its global 
leadership role on trade.
    Also, implementing a constructive immigration policy agenda 
that expands avenues of immigration for those who wish to 
contribute by working and starting businesses, while enhancing 
security, of course, to keep out terrorists and others who 
would do us harm.
    That is a pro-entrepreneur framework that we put forward. 
Thank you again for your invitation to be part of this hearing 
today, and I look forward to any questions.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you, and thank you to all our 
witnesses. We really appreciate all you have shared with us 
today.
    I will begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes, and I 
would like to address my first question to Ms. DeVane.
    As Americans quit their jobs in record numbers, women are 
leading the change in what is known as the great resignation. 
Ms. DeVane, what shift in the labor force occurred during the 
pandemic to make women more likely to launch a small business?
    Ms. DeVANE. Thank you for that question, Chairwoman 
Velazquez. My experience, through our entrepreneurship center, 
is that many of the women that started businesses during the 
pandemic had been laid off from their jobs, similar to Ellie, 
who told her story.
    Many of these women business owners had decided at that 
point to start their own business. Some of them were passion 
projects. Some of them were built out of necessity. But many of 
the business owners that we saw were women, and they were using 
that opportunity to start businesses.
    They use and utilized our centers, which had technical 
assistance services, counseling and mentoring and training 
services to start businesses.
    In addition to that, many of them saw opportunities through 
grant programs that the National Urban Leagues and other 
organizations made available that were specifically for women-
owned businesses to start and grow their businesses.
    In addition to that, there were grants available for 
minority women-owned businesses to help undergird some of the 
training that we were providing to them.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you for that answer.
    Ms. Diop, what advice do you have for others that are 
considering starting a business during times of uncertainty?
    Ms. DIOP. Thank you, Chairwoman Velazquez, for that 
question.
    I would definitely advise women who want to start 
businesses in a time of uncertainty, or any time, to utilize 
the resources that they have available to them to the fullest 
extent.
    And that may be monetary, but also I would advise them to 
utilize the resources within themselves. Many times we don't 
realize that the experience we have gained in jobs or in life 
can directly lend to success in business.
    And I know for myself, everything that I have put into my 
coaching and consulting business are skills and experience that 
I have gained throughout corporate America and just throughout 
college and all of the experience that I have.
    So I think that is a number one thing is to--I always teach 
my clients to make a list of everything you know how to do, 
your experiences, your knowledge, your skills, and pull a 
business from that list. That way you are more guaranteed to 
succeed because you are naturally working within something you 
already know how to do rather than venturing off into a 
business that you think you should start based on what, you 
know----
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you. Thank you for that answer.
    Mr. Fogaty, during the pandemic, many businesses have 
struggled to adapt to the changing nature of work and have 
faced challenges with supply chain issues, access to capital, 
and employee retention. Can you please describe your role at 
the 36Squared Incubator and how a $1 billion investment in 
incubators in the Build Back Better Act will help create more 
entrepreneurs?
    Mr. FOGATY. Certainly. Well, I certainly agree with the 
testimony of the previous witnesses.
    What we do is provide assistance and support, not only 
through the SBDCs; I also have colleagues in the ITCs, 
International Trade Centers. This is a network of professionals 
who, at no charge, will help manufacturers and facilitate their 
exports, as Mr. Keating alluded to.
    We also have what is known--I also have colleagues who are 
what is known PTACs, Procurement Technical Assistance Centers, 
and these are available across the country, as are SBDCs and 
ITCs. The PTACs will facilitate and assist entrepreneurs with 
getting government contracting.
    We are also in--the city of Chicago has Neighborhood 
Business Development Centers. So my point is there is a lot of 
free assistance out there. We don't have all the answers, but 
we have a number of resources so that we can find the answers.
    And I think it is important to support small business 
development centers, entrepreneurship centers, incubators, as 
they reach out and try and guide entrepreneurs and small 
businesses through this time.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. Thank you.
    Mr. Keating, I just ran out of time. Maybe if we go into a 
second round, I will be able to ask you a question. Thank you 
very much.
    Now I recognize Mr. Williams, Vice Ranking Member of the 
Committee, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I want to 
thank our Ranking Member too, and witnesses for being here 
today.
    Every American can see that our country is facing one of 
the worst supply chain stories in history. I see it firsthand. 
I am a car dealer--I have been for 51 years--employ hundreds of 
people, and I can tell you, it is serious.
    And U.S. ports are struggling to unload deliveries, and 
inventory is just sitting on container ships in the middle of 
the ocean.
    Families are preparing for the most expensive Thanksgiving 
meal ever, and we are told that by the administration, and 
worry if Christmas gifts will even be available.
    This supply chain crisis has become a substantial issue for 
small businesses across the country, forcing business owners to 
make operational adjustments in order to compensate for the 
lack of inventory and revenue.
    So, Mr. Keating, what are small businesses who operate on 
fixed margins to do when they don't have a product to sell or 
can't afford to pay their workers, and what do you think the 
long-term effects of these supply chain disruptions will have 
on our economy?
    Mr. KEATING. Well, I agree with you a hundred percent, and 
in terms of small businesses owners, they are being impacted 
more so than large firms just because they operate on such thin 
margins.
    You know, the long-term issue--listen, in the short term, 
this is going to be an issue that we need government to not 
impose additional burdens, like I mentioned in my testimony--
taxes, regulations, things like that--provide relief where they 
can, and then the private sector is going to work through this.
    It is going to be very painful. It has already been very 
painful.
    And then the question is how--you know, long-term effect. 
The long-term effect is going to be determined by how many 
businesses survive these issues and these problems. We have 
already seen what the pandemic has done.
    I mean, various surveys, you know, either we have lost 
hundreds of thousands or even millions of small businesses 
during the pandemic. So now we have got this additional issue 
of working through trying to get back to where we were at 
least. And the long-term impact is going to be, again, how many 
small businesses have we lost.
    Again, I take some hope in those business application 
numbers, where you see people think--at the very least, they 
are thinking about entrepreneurship as an option, and that is 
what we are going to need going forward.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Perfect. Let's talk about inflation. It is 
still on the rise, and hardworking Americans are paying more 
for food, gas, and other utilities. And a recent report by the 
Department of Labor showed that inflation has spiked to 5.3 
percent, a record high in 13 years.
    So, meanwhile, Democrats continue their push to inject over 
$3 trillion of new federal spending into the economy and 
threatening to worsen inflation for months or years to come.
    So the Biden administration refuses to acknowledge the risk 
of hyperinflation. They argue that proposed spending packages 
are fully paid for and will have no impact on inflation.
    So, again quickly, Mr. Keating, in your testimony, you 
state that the inflation numbers are undeniable, and can you 
talk briefly about the current impact on inflation, whether you 
think it is transitory like the Federal Reserve argues?
    Mr. KEATING. Yeah. I always get concerned when the Fed, 
whose primary responsibility is stable prices, kind of pooh-
poohs what is going on with inflation. So I am not quite clear 
how long this is going to last. I don't think any of us are, 
and that is part of the problem, right?
    Inflation comes with uncertainty, there is volatility, all 
of the issues that, you know, higher interest rates, all of 
these problems. So the issue--going forward, I wish I heard 
more from the Fed, that, hey, listen, we are taking this 
inflation issue very seriously, and perhaps we are going to 
start to rein in these historically unprecedented loose 
monetary policies that we have been running really since the 
summer of 2008. I think that would be a great step.
    And then also, on the fiscal side of things, you know, 
inflation is all about too much money chasing too few goods. I 
like the idea of incentivizing the production of more goods. 
So, if we could have pro-growth fiscal policies, meaning tax, 
regulatory, trade policies, combined with some monetary 
restraint, that is how we got out of this mess in the 1980s 
when we had stagflation, and that is how we are going to get 
out of the mess today.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Okay. Quickly, in the time I have remaining, 
in your opinion, what are the impacts of higher taxes and 
increased government regulations on small businesses, 
particularly on the heels of the COVID-19 setbacks? Higher 
taxes do nothing but hurt business. We need to cut taxes. So, 
quickly, how do you feel about that?
    Mr. KEATING. Well, you are right on. Listen, higher taxes 
always come with costs for negatives to the economy, negatives 
for small business. And then, when you are thinking about doing 
it as we struggle to get out of a pandemic economy, I am 
bewildered by that. This is the worst possible time to be 
imposing higher taxes and more regulatory burdens.
    And, without a doubt, you can talk about targeting at this 
income level or that income level; ultimately, everybody gets 
hurt and largely because investors get hit. That means less 
capital for entrepreneurs, and we need entrepreneurs, again, to 
drive innovation, economic growth, and job creation.
    Mr. WILLIAMS. Thank you, Madam Chairman, I yield my time 
back.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back, and now we 
recognize the gentlelady from Kansas, Ms. Davids, Chairwoman of 
the Subcommittee on Economic Growth, Tax, and Capital Access, 
for 5 minutes.
    Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you, Chairwoman, and I am excited about 
this hearing today. You know, America's small businesses and 
small business owners, entrepreneurs, have really faced 
enormous and unprecedented challenges over the last year and a 
half because of COVID, and we have heard about that during this 
time from our witnesses.
    And we also heard that, against all odds, we are seeing 
Americans start new businesses. Even in 2020, 4.3 million new 
businesses were started, and that is the highest number of new 
businesses over the last 15 years.
    So, while we have unprecedented difficulties, we are also 
seeing unexpected and inspiring startup and unexpected and 
inspiring startups surge. It is, I think, a testament to the 
entrepreneurial spirit that we have got in this country, and I 
am glad we are taking the time to understand that today.
    And so my first question, Ms. Diop--is that the--okay--I 
wanted to ask you about, you know, in your written testimony, 
you mentioned that you became an entrepreneur because you had 
to. And I think that is something that a lot of folks face, but 
I am curious, of the things that you were able to navigate, can 
you share with us a little bit about the challenges that you 
didn't see coming, and, you know, what were those?
    Ms. DIOP. Thank you so much, Ms. Davids.
    Certainly there were challenges that I ended up facing 
which I couldn't have anticipated, and I would say the largest 
one is learning how to go from a one-woman, or person, business 
to then delegating and expanding it.
    I, as I mentioned in my testimony, started my business out 
of necessity. Because I couldn't find a job but I had children, 
I needed to take what I knew how to do and turn it into a 
business that could then serve others.
    Where the shift happened and where the first challenge 
really came is, okay, now how do I take this and make it 
something that is not only about me but then can create a space 
for other people who either need a job or further need support 
in their own businesses.
    So scaling is a huge part of entrepreneurship, a huge part 
of running a small business, and can be the largest challenge, 
but I was able to navigate that through research, support, and 
trial and error.
    Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you. And I am--the idea of scaling and 
kind of those almost, like, back-office type of skills, you 
know, the Kauffman Foundation, which is based in the Kansas 
City area--the Kansas Third is on the Kansas side of the Kansas 
City metro area--and the Kauffman Foundation has done a lot of 
research, and they talk about accounting and legal advice. And 
I am curious about how that is one of the biggest obstacles. I 
am curious how you handled--like, you mentioned research. Like 
what kind of steps did you take to address that?
    Ms. DIOP. Absolutely. So I did ask a lot of questions. I am 
very grateful that, in my time running this business, I have 
been able to make connections. And so a lot of clients who 
would book me for a call would actually be in the field of--the 
legal field, or perhaps they were in the field of finance.
    And so, in exchange for me helping them to gain clarity on 
how to scale their own businesses, I was then able to ask them, 
well, since you are in the financial field, what should I do? 
You know, since you are in the legal field, what steps can I be 
taking to really expand this so that it is not just my small 
business but something that can really grow and walk on its own 
legs? So that was a key element of my research.
    And then, as well, I am from Los Angeles, California, so I 
looked up small business development programs and centers near 
me where I could go and ask questions: How do I navigate this 
next step? I have done this much so far by myself, but I know 
that I need further support.
    So those types of programs, such as the one you mentioned 
in Kansas, are so very needed. I really did mine the scrappy 
way by just, you know, researching and figuring it out. But, 
when people can have access to information that provides them 
with that necessary infrastructure support, it really 
strengthens their ability to be a long-term, lasting business.
    Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you for that. And I think, you know, from 
your description about how you got into being an entrepreneur 
and also from Ms. DeVane, you know, the work that they are 
doing, and now as a community navigator--community navigator 
grantee, it sounds like one of the things that we need to do is 
try to make sure that our resources, from the federal 
perspective, are available and known to everyone.
    With that, I will yield back. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady yields back.
    Now we recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Luetkemeyer.
    Mr. LUETKEMEYER. [Inaudible.]
    Ms. VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman from Pennsylvania, Ranking 
Member of the Subcommittee on Economic Growth, Tax, and Capital 
Access, Mr. Meuser, is recognized.
    Mr. MEUSER. Thank you, Chairwoman Velazquez, and thank you 
to our Republican leader, Mr. Luetkemeyer, and thank you very 
much to our witnesses, and thank you, Ms. Diop for being here 
with us, and to all on virtual.
    Clearly, the last 19 months have been very challenging for 
small business. Even though I am a Member of Congress, I have 
been experiencing it from my past life, as well as just working 
with the constituents and helping them through, navigating 
through the COVID crisis, from PPP to shutdowns to you name it.
    Ms. Diop, your story was compelling, amazing. 
Congratulations. I want to ask you a couple questions about 
that, but first I am going to just go to Mr. Keating.
    Mr. Keating, as small businesses, entrepreneurs, as you 
have mentioned a couple of times, have dealt with cost of 
goods, shortages, all kinds of cost increases, inflation, wage 
increases, which we all like, but when they come so suddenly 
and creates the shortages, as well as the added unexpected 
expenses--government is not in the business of creating jobs.
    Government's role is to create the best environment 
possible for the private sector to create those jobs. So, in 
light of the many issues that exist--workforce, I mentioned 
them, inflation, cost of good increases, supply chain problems, 
pending OSHA mandates--how has government done in helping or 
worsening small businesses' challenges, Mr. Keating?
    Mr. KEATING. Yeah. Unfortunately, I would like to say we 
were doing better than we are. When you look at all the signals 
that entrepreneurs, small businesses, investors, are getting 
from Washington, it has been, you know, what taxes are we going 
to increase; let's look at all sorts of new regulatory 
initiatives. And they span across from labor to antitrust and 
everything in between.
    You know, we still haven't unwound tariffs that were 
imposed. So, you know, there is not much going on, on the trade 
front to be able to expand opportunities.
    So bottom line is, you know, the overarching signals are 
not positive from the federal government, I would argue, in 
terms of policies for small businesses.
    Mr. MEUSER. Okay. So perhaps reversing some of those, 
keeping taxes competitive so goods made in Asia are not more 
competitive, regulations that do affect supply chain, that is 
what we should--in your view----
    Mr. KEATING. Absolutely. Absolutely. Regulatory reform, in 
a positive sense, would be great. I mean, imagine if the 
business community, including entrepreneurs and small 
businesses, were hearing from Washington that, hey, we are 
going to start sunsetting regulations so that we can assess 
each one if it makes sense going forward, right?
    How about we have more input from Congress, rather than 
leaving it all to appointees and bureaucrats, right, having 
Congress actually approve each rule and regulation. So those 
types of reforms would be a big plus, I think.
    Mr. MEUSER. All right, thanks a lot.
    So, Ms. Diop, you are based in Los Angeles? Well, again, 
congratulations, your determination, hard work, probably a lot 
of smart work as well, a tremendous amount of thinking and 
probably loss of sleep, but really, really great American 
business story.
    So taxes in L.A. and federal taxes, I am not going to ask 
you what you pay in taxes--it is your business--but I would 
guess it is somewhere in the neighborhood of about 40 percent. 
Do you think that that is helpful to your business or--so just 
talk about that a little bit.
    Would raising those taxes affect you? Would you prefer them 
to stay where they are? Would you like to see them lowered a 
little bit? How would that help your small business?
    Ms. DIOP. Yes. Thank you so much for your question, Mr. 
Meuser.
    Taxes are definitely a challenge, and the biggest wake-up 
call in this entrepreneurship journey that I have had.
    I think that, you know, taxes as a new business owner can 
be navigated more thoroughly with proper education and with 
proper support. I think one thing that is lacking is taxes are 
almost like a smack in the face when you start a business. 
There isn't any, you know, preparation to help a small business 
owner know what they need to expect in terms of the magnitude 
of what the tax rate can be and how to fully prepare for it.
    I do think that, as small business owners, you know, lower 
taxes can certainly help because of the fact that we are 
already operating on margins that, you know, we have to pay 
other employees, we have to, you know, pay for other startup 
capital, depending on what type of business that you are in. 
I----
    Mr. MEUSER. I am sorry. I am out of time.
    But, Madam Chair, I would just like to ask, perhaps Ms. 
Diop can provide us with what you would like to see us do to 
help your clients and to help you. So maybe we can do that even 
in a second round or maybe you could just send us an email on 
that.
    Ms. DIOP. Okay.
    Mr. MEUSER. I yield back, Madam Chair. Thank you.
    Ms. DIOP. Thank you.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    The gentlelady from Illinois, Ms. Newman, is recognized for 
5 minutes.
    Ms. NEWMAN. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    I just have a quick question for Mr. Fogaty and then for 
Ms. Diop.
    So, Andrew, first of all, good to see you. Can you share a 
little bit of what you think would be the number one most 
powerful thing that Congress can do to help incubators, 
particularly with entrepreneurs of color and entrepreneurs with 
disabilities? If you could nail a number one down that Congress 
could do to provide incubators specifically and then 
providing--or providing and empowering more incubators, what 
would that be?
    Mr. FOGATY. Well, support, of course, in the financial 
sense for incubators, and I would also--for disadvantaged 
entrepreneurs, especially the severely disadvantaged 
entrepreneurs that I deal with, with blind people, severe 
disabilities, I would like to see some sort of a grant program. 
Right now, I have a chef who is blind. I would love to see her 
be able to get a space at O'Hare. She has--she had a restaurant 
and, fortunately, closed it just before the pandemic--it was a 
great time to close a restaurant--so that she could start a 
family, but she is getting ready to get back into it. She would 
do well at a place like O'Hare or Midway, but the cost of 
getting into one of those spaces is really prohibitive for a 
disabled entrepreneur.
    So, you know, certain segments of our entrepreneurship 
world do need grants and startup support, and we should also 
encourage the lenders, the banks, perhaps through the CRA 
program, to support both incubators and the entrepreneurs 
themselves.
    Ms. NEWMAN. Thank you very much.
    And then, Ms. Diop, so, first of all, congratulations. 
Amazing. So, if you think back to when you were first starting, 
what do you think would have been the number one thing that 
would have helped you with what you are calling the surprise 
around taxes? And so I was in exactly your shoes 17 years ago, 
and I was, like, wow, that is interesting.
    Now, as we all know, that, once you identify your 
deductions properly, legally, and ethically and all of those 
things, your taxes come down greatly. And then, when you choose 
a tax category, it is a breeze then. And, actually, it is much 
better to be a small business than a big business. And, as you 
know, moving forward, your rate will likely stay the same or 
lower based on the Build Back Better plan, so I just wanted to 
clarify that for the record.
    That said, what would be the number one thing maybe in 
terms of, you know, small business literacy on the ledger side 
or whatever that would have been, gosh, it would have been good 
to know that?
    Mr. DOHERTY. Yes. Thank you so much, Ms. Newman, for your 
question. I would definitely say that what would have been 
helpful at the very beginning is perhaps when small businesses 
go to register for their business, and they are in that initial 
phase of becoming official, you know, any type of documentation 
or any type--maybe a letter or just something that can really 
assist them with understanding, okay, now that you have 
registered a business, here are the most common deductions for 
the category you have chosen, for the industry that you have 
chosen. Here are ways that you should be tracking those 
deductions. Here are resources maybe near you or resources 
online that can help you to start practicing tracking your 
deductions and proper accounting measures. Because once I got a 
handle on my taxes and the expenses, I then immediately had to 
start coaching other business owners on the proper ways to 
track their own expenses and track their income because, truly, 
they had no idea. And if you don't set aside a certain amount 
of money, then you are slapped with a very large tax bill that 
then can really set you way back, and you almost feel like you 
are starting your business from the beginning if you are not 
fully prepared.
    So I definitely think measures like that would be very 
helpful and can further educate business owners even before 
they start the business on, hey, here is everything you need to 
be ready for. Yes, it is great, but also make sure that you 
know what to do when it comes to paying your taxes and when it 
comes to doing it the legal and ethical way.
    Ms. NEWMAN. Well stated, and thank you. Great idea. So 
thank you for your time.
    And I yield back, Chairwoman.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady yields back.
    The gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. Stauber, is recognized 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. STAUBER. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
    You know, the COVID shutdowns were devastating to 
communities and the American economy. By the end of 2020, 
government lockdowns eased, businesses began to reopen, and our 
economy started to rebound. Things were on the up, and 
businesses had great optimism, but the Democrats marched 
forward with their first partisan spending spree, the American 
Rescue Plan, a $1.9 trillion package, despite the nation's 
positive recovery trends. This was the beginning of the many 
crises we are facing today.
    First, the cost of the American Rescue Plan has caused 
immense inflation. Gasoline is up 42.1 percent. Electricity is 
up 5.2 percent. Transportation is up almost 5 percent. And all 
these costs mean less money for our small business owners to 
take home to their families, who, by the way, are having to pay 
12.6 percent more for meat, 12.6 percent more for eggs, and 
11.9 percent more for their children's footwear.
    Second, the American Rescue Plan continued to pay people 
more money not to work. Now, U.S. employers are still 
struggling to fill more than 10.4 million job openings. Labor 
shortages for truck drivers, dock workers, warehouse employees, 
no wonder there are issues with our supply chain.
    So here we are in the middle of a crisis. Prices of goods 
continue to skyrocket right before the holidays. Shelves are 
empty. A real look at what the Biden agenda has gotten the 
American people so far, and, yet, the Democrats say let's spend 
more, trillions more. And how will we pay for it? How are we 
going to pay for that? Oh, that IS right. Taxes again on small 
businesses. That is wrong. I simply do not understand how my 
Democratic colleagues can convince themselves that they are 
doing good work on behalf of the American people.
    With that, I would like to use the remainder of my time to 
turn to the testimony of our witnesses, and I thank you all for 
being here today.
    Mr. Keating, do you know how many small businesses are 
organized as subchapter C corporations or passthrough 
businesses?
    Mr. KEATING. Actually, most businesses are passthrough 
businesses, S corps, LLCs, sole proprietorships and so on, so 
that is the bulk of--it is--over 90 percent, I believe, off the 
top of my head, are non-C corps.
    Mr. STAUBER. Okay. So close to 90 percent. So can you speak 
to how an increase in the corporate tax rate and a limitation 
on section 199A deduction will harm these businesses?
    Mr. KEATING. Well, there are a couple things, real quick, 
about the corporate tax. First off, there is this misnomer 
going around that most C corps are large businesses. And, 
again, when you break down the numbers, most C corps are small 
businesses, small and midsize companies. So, when you are 
talking about an increase in the corporate income tax rate, you 
are talking about an increase directly on many small 
businesses. And then, obviously, any kind of tax increase on C 
corps are going to affect their universe, their network of 
businesses as well, which obviously covers non-C corps that 
serve those businesses, that work with those businesses and 
work with their employees.
    Mr. STAUBER. Well, thank you very much.
    I think, Madam Chair, Ranking Member Luetkemeyer, I 
appreciate you holding this hearing. And, you know, we have 
always talked about small businesses are the engine of our 
economy. They are the engine of main street. And we continue to 
tax them and put devastating policies, not allowing them to 
succeed. We need to protect small businesses and ensure they 
are the engine of our economy.
    And I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    The gentlelady from California, Ms. Chu, is recognized for 
5 minutes.
    Ms. CHU. Ms. Diop, I was so inspired to hear your story, 
and as a Representative of Los Angeles area congressional 
district, I was especially inspired. You faced obstacles that 
could have defeated so many people, having been rejected from 
job interviews 53 times, but you used your creativity and 
determination to use that $1,200 stimulus check that we sent 
out to start your own business.
    And I was thrilled to hear that, because of your success, 
you hired 5 people and are planning to hire 10 more--5 more for 
10 people total.
    So, Ms. Diop, in April, I reintroduced my legislation, H.R. 
2680, the PROGRESS Act, which would support the smallest of 
businesses, those without any employees, by helping them expand 
and incentivize third-party investment. This legislation will 
create a refundable payroll tax for non-employer firms that 
hire their first full-time employee and also an investment 
credit to encourage third-party capital investment into non-
employer firms. Non-employer firms are much more likely to be 
owned by women and female entrepreneurs on average and start 
out with roughly half the capital as male entrepreneurs; hence, 
the legislation.
    So can you talk about policies to level the playing field 
by having such incentives for first-time employees as well as 
third-party investments could help entrepreneurs like you?
    Ms. DIOP. Absolutely, and thank you so much for your 
question, Representative Chu. I would definitely agree that 
incentives to level the playing field, to use your words, and 
assisting new business owners, as well as new women business 
owners, can certainly be helpful because especially those of us 
who are new entrepreneurs that are mothers, we have an entirely 
different set of challenges to face when it comes to starting a 
business. So any measures and incentives that could alleviate 
some of those to, for example, in my case, give me access to--I 
had the $1,200 but any other programs that provide grants or 
simply just access to resources to further assist in starting a 
business in that way is certainly helpful.
    Ms. CHU. Okay. Thank you for that.
    Mr. Fogaty, thank you for your testimony. I am glad that 
you mentioned that many small businesses struggle to access 
affordable loans for smaller amounts in the private market, 
even some nonprofit lenders. In fact, you say that the access 
to capital is a challenge. And, of course, also some nonprofit 
lender options exist but that they are typically at a higher 
interest rate and are less desirable than a bank loan.
    So that is why I have been working for years to authorize 
the Community Advantage Loan Program, which provides SBA backed 
7(a) loans to this exact subset of small businesses, those who 
cannot qualify for an affordable loan from a commercial bank or 
traditional 7(a) lender but need financing that is under 
$250,000. So I am so pleased that the current Build Back Better 
framework does include $275 million in funding for the 
Community Advantage Program.
    So can you elaborate on this gap in the lending market for 
smaller dollar loans and what that means for small business 
borrowers? And can you discuss how SBA programs like Community 
Advantage, which leverages a government subsidy to offer 
favorable rates to borrowers, can play in filling the gap?
    Mr. FOGATY. Sure. The SBA loan programs, all of them, 
including the Community Advantage, are key to small business 
growth, and I am all for them, and they should certainly be 
supported. It is certainly good legislation although, as I did 
say before, in Chicago, especially on the southwest side, we 
have a number of ITIN holders who cannot access most of those 
loan programs.
    Every small business, every startup, when they are looking 
for small loans, $20-, $30-, $40,000, it is really not worth 
the bank's while, in my opinion, to make those loans happen. So 
I would like to see some way of incentivizing the banks, 
streamlining the reporting procedures, helping us as the 
business advisors make these loans available to small 
businesses because there is that gap from the small amount of 
startup funding when you get going, and then, when you are 
ready to expand, hire employees, you are not looking for a 
million dollar loan. You are--many of my clients are looking 
for $20-, $30,000, and there are just not a lot of choices out 
there. Thank you for your question.
    Ms. CHU. Thank you. I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentlelady from New York, Ms. Tenney, 
for 5 minutes.
    Ms. TENNEY. Thank you, Chair Velazquez and Ranking Member 
Luetkemeyer, for holding this minute. I am a small business 
owner in New York. Our business is celebrating its 75th year. 
It is a very difficult landscape in New York, high taxes, a lot 
of frustration obviously with the employment situation now, but 
95 percent of the businesses and the people in my district 
actually got a tax cut from the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act. Only the 
wealthiest actually received a tax increase under the last 
plan. It was a breather for us to finally get some relief to 
reinvest in our communities, reinvest in our business from, you 
know, the heavy tax burden that is put on us by New York State.
    But my question and my concern is that 60-plus or more 
percentage of these new jobs always come from the small 
business community like ours.
    We would love to expand and grow, and we know that venture 
capital is really important. But one of the things that, in 
being the heart of the industrial revolution started in my 
district when the Erie Canal was started, is the loss of a lot 
of these manufacturing jobs, a lot of jobs where--a lot of the 
manufacturing sector where we have a lot of investment, but we 
need long-term solutions, and we have long horizons that we 
need to meet which we are going to stay in there for a longer 
period of time.
    So we also provide a lot of jobs for people who don't 
necessarily have to be skilled initially, but we want to put 
the training in. We take advantage of that if we can. And that 
is why, you know, one of the initiatives I put through is the 
American Innovation and Manufacturing Act, which would--and I 
am grateful for the bipartisan sponsorship of this bill--which 
would give innovation to small manufacturers and give them the 
flexible capital that they need. So this is really--you know, 
we think this is a first step.
    But I wanted to ask, first, Mr. Fogaty, because I know this 
is a huge issue. It is a huge issue for my company. We are 
small. We only have 70 employees. But what is--how important is 
it to support domestic manufacturing and that we need to 
streamline the reporting regulations? You alluded to it in 
investing in small business, but specifically dealing with, you 
know, the ability to thrive in a State like New York where we 
have such heavy regulation?
    Mr. FOGATY. Yeah. No manufacturer likes regulation, and 
they have been having a very, very tough time of it. I would 
also--when I talked about streamlining, I think that the 
manufacturers that I work with would like to see some 
simplification, some streamlining of the procurement process. 
The Systems Award Management system, SAM, which is the federal 
government system for enrolling to get federal contracts, last 
year, I had a couple of manufacturers pivot pretty quickly from 
what they were doing to making PPE. And this is a time when the 
masks were, you know, in great demand. And they were able to 
pivot quickly, but they were not able to sell to the government 
in an expedited way.
    And some of the systems, as I said, the SAM system. I have 
helped a couple of blind entrepreneurs navigate the SAM system, 
and it is--you know, I don't want to be overly critical, but it 
is certainly in need of an update.
    Ms. TENNEY. We got some of that criticism as well, you 
know. Good intentions, but in practice, it was hard for a lot 
of our entrepreneurs to really access it.
    Mr. FOGATY. Yeah. Absolutely. And, again, we really, really 
need to--I am sorry.
    Ms. TENNEY. Go ahead. No. Go ahead.
    Mr. FOGATY. I was going to say we really need to support 
domestic manufacturing, American manufacturing through things 
like on-the-job training programs so that we can bring a job 
seeker in and the manufacturer, the employer does not have to 
look to somebody who already has these skills. There is an 
incentive so they can train them.
    Ms. TENNEY. Yeah. We have invested heavily in that with our 
business as well. Thank you.
    Mr. Keating, you said in your testimony that the recovery 
from the pandemic slowed dramatically in the third quarter of 
this year, fiscal year 2021, and that real GDP grew at a mere 2 
percent in the third quarter. You said this was largely because 
of the consumer pullback. Why do you think consumers lost 
confidence in the recovery, and what steps can we do to restore 
confidence? Really quickly because I only have 20 seconds left.
    Mr. KEATING. I would suggest consumers--it was also 
business investment pulled back. I think the signals again from 
Washington were very troubling. In your State, I am one of the 
people that just left. I moved to Florida from New York. I grew 
up there. The tax and regulatory burden is a mess. That is what 
you have to deal with to get things right in New York, and good 
luck. But, yeah, those signals from Washington, I think, had a 
real effect.
    Listen. I said for the longest time, and I know I am 
probably talking too much, but after we experienced the bounce-
back, my question has always been, what are we going to do then 
on the policy front to make sure that we accelerate economic 
growth going forward? And what we are seeing right now is not 
the answer.
    Ms. TENNEY. Thank you. I really appreciate that.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady's time has expired.
    Now we recognize Mr. Evans from Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.
    Mr. EVANS. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Ms. DeVane, it is great to have you here. And, in my 
younger years before I became a Pennsylvania State legislator, 
I worked as a job developer at the Urban League in 
Philadelphia. I have seen tremendous work that your 
organization does to advance economic opportunity for Black 
Americans and for those in underserved communities.
    Despite the toll the pandemic has taken on the economy 
here, there has been some silver linings. Last year, Americans 
filed paperwork to start 4.3 million new businesses. This is a 
24-percent increase from 2019. This 24-percent surge in 
entrepreneurship was largely concentrated in Black and Hispanic 
communities with high median income.
    Ms. DeVane, this is my question to you: What factors do you 
think contribute to this increase in Black and Hispanic 
ownership businesses?
    Ms. DeVANE. Thank you very much for the question, 
Representative Evans. And, of course, once an Urban Leaguer, 
always an Urban Leaguer. It is great to see you.
    I think a couple of things have contributed to that. One is 
that many people were laid off from their jobs and needed, 
quite frankly, to find employment and took to entrepreneurship 
as an opportunity to gain some economic freedom and 
independence.
    I think a number of other entrepreneurs came about because 
they wanted to start their passion projects. They turned their 
side hustles into businesses because the environment was right 
to do so. There were grants available from private companies. 
There were government grants available. There were PPP loans 
available for those who could get them. I think, for many 
business owners, this was an opportune time to delve into the 
workforce.
    Mr. EVANS. Ms. DeVane, the National Urban League website 
states the number one challenge facing 80 percent of small 
business owners is lack of capital and cash flow. Has this 
changed during the pandemic, and if so, how?
    Ms. DeVANE. Yeah. We saw our business owners tremendously 
affected by the pandemic. Most of them were already struggling 
beforehand. We have talked about that a little bit. They didn't 
have the back office, the fiscal systems, the operational 
systems, the strategic management in place, and so, when the 
pandemic hit, it was just exacerbated. And I think many of 
these businesses struggled and shuttered their doors.
    I think the ticket for many of these business owners is the 
technical assistance provided. Capital is sorely needed, and we 
have talked about that. But capital always has to be 
undergirded by coaching, by training and development. You don't 
know what you don't know, as Ellie found out with the tax 
situation. So I think for us, the National Urban League, our 
affiliate network through our entrepreneurship centers have 
been providing the knowledge and the tools and the skills that 
folks need to very develop those operational systems, put 
fiscal management practices in place, and to help people to 
strategize to grow their businesses and to avoid this type of 
situation as they learn to pivot during crises.
    Mr. EVANS. Ms. DeVane, many small businesses fail after 
just a few years. Can you tell us what Congress can do to 
ensure many of the businesses that started during the pandemic, 
especially minority businesses, continue to grow and provide 
jobs and opportunities in their communities?
    Ms. DeVANE. Absolutely. I think that what those businesses 
need--obviously, capital is always sorely needed, but in 
addition to that, it is the technical assistance. I think that 
this SBA community navigator program is a great example of what 
government can do. This program will help to use trusted 
advisors, such as the Urban League affiliates, to go out into 
communities where business owners don't have access to these 
tools, don't understand what is available to them through the 
government, and we can go out and talk about the resources that 
are available and drive people to the SBA and to other 
organizations that can provide the skills that they need to 
grow these businesses. We really need technical assistance. We 
really need incubation programs that help people to develop and 
scale and grow their businesses, and we need capital.
    Mr. EVANS. I think I have a few more seconds left.
    My home city of Philadelphia had a poverty rate of 24.5 
percent in 2020 with two-thirds of those at poverty being Black 
or Hispanic. How do we better reach Black and Hispanic 
entrepreneurs in communities with lower median income?
    Ms. DeVANE. We used trusted advisors like our Urban League 
affiliates. We live and we work in those communities. We know 
those communities. We provide wraparound services, not just 
entrepreneurship, through our Urban League affiliates. And 
those are the folks that know business owners in those 
communities, those are the ones that are trusted by the 
business owners, and those are the ones that need to be going 
out like we are doing through our Urban League affiliates, 
evangelizing, providing services, technical assistance, and 
capital to those business owners. And I think that is the 
ticket.
    Mr. EVANS. Thank you.
    I yield back the balance of my time, Madam Chair. Thank 
you.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    The gentlelady from California, Ms. Young Kim, Ranking 
Member of the Subcommittee on Innovation, Entrepreneurship, and 
Workforce Development, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. YOUNG KIM. Thank you, Chairwoman.
    I would like to go right into questioning Mr. Keating.
    Can you elaborate on how continual lackluster job growth, 
like we saw this past September, this incentivizes individuals 
from establishing their own small business?
    Mr. KEATING. I am sorry. The lack of job growth; is that 
what you are saying?
    Ms. YOUNG KIM. Yeah. The lack of job growth.
    Mr. KEATING. Yeah. I think what we have heard here is 
absolutely correct. When you look at entrepreneurship, there 
are different types of entrepreneurs, right. Some dive into the 
waters; others get pushed. And what we saw during the pandemic 
is, I think, a combination of people being pushed, right. I put 
in my testimony, Walt Disney once said, when you can't get a 
job, you start your own business, right, and that is what we 
have seen here.
    But, also, I think the fact that people have experienced 
more independent work or independence, and I think that has 
them thinking about being their own--you know, owning their own 
business, looking towards entrepreneurship. I think, in a very 
tough time, those are some of the positives that hopefully are 
going to come out of this.
    Ms. YOUNG KIM. If we are not hitting the mark with expected 
growth on GDP, how does that affect business confidence in the 
medium to long term?
    Mr. KEATING. Yeah. Well, there is uncertainty now, right, 
and we saw the bounce-back, the snap-back, and we were pleased 
about that, even with all the problems, supply chains and labor 
shortages, and all of a sudden, we see GDP kind of put the 
brakes on at 2 percent here.
    Now, there are a whole host of issues, I think, that are in 
the mix, including the Delta variant and so on and so on, but 
this just raises more questions. That is not good for business. 
It is going to raise more questions with investors, right, 
because we saw a part of the story on GDP was the slowdown of 
business investment. Business investment is critical now, and 
it is critical for future growth. So that just adds more 
uncertainty into the equation, and that has me concerned.
    Ms. YOUNG KIM. Yeah. You know, I represent southern 
California, and my home State of California has one of the 
highest unemployment rates in the country, and unemployment 
claims keep raising. I mean, it keeps going up, not decreasing. 
It is a concern for us from the big State of California.
    But, Mr. Keating, in your written testimony, you noted a 
MetLife U.S. Chamber survey indicating 44 percent of small 
businesses are finding it harder to fill the open positions. 
Can you tell us if you have found a correlation between small 
businesses not having available workers and the decline in the 
labor force? Why do you think we are seeing a decrease in labor 
force participation?
    Mr. KEATING. Yeah. That is--you know, when you look at that 
unemployment number, I always tell people, go deeper when you 
look at the unemployment rate because right now, we saw an 
improvement in the unemployment rate. Like, hey, wow, that is 
great, right, but part of that improvement was people leaving 
the labor force again.
    Now, with the pandemic, everybody should be coming back, 
right, so this is--again, it is an issue that has been around 
really since the 2008 recession. Why have people not come back 
to the labor force to the degree that they should? Some people 
say it is age, but when you zero in on the work, you know, 
working age, 25 to 54, we are still not back to where we should 
be, so that has me very concerned.
    I am hoping that these business application numbers maybe 
point to people becoming entrepreneurs. That would be a net 
positive. But I am not quite sure what the answer is. There are 
a whole host of things, I think, culturally, economically that 
are in the mix here. And, again, that is something that I think 
we need to wrestle with and really delve into.
    Ms. YOUNG KIM. Something we need to continue to think about 
and worry about, you know. One more question to you, Mr. 
Keating. Some parts of California are experiencing some of the 
highest average gas prices ever. In some parts where I am in 
southern California, L.A., Orange County, they have hit a 13-
year high. Some place I saw close to $6 per gallon. Can you 
speak of how supply chain bottlenecks and even the threat of 
higher taxes can impact entrepreneurial behavior?
    Mr. KEATING. Yeah, all those things. I mean, when you are 
talking about gas prices, right, that is fundamental to 
everybody, right, including small business owners. So, you 
know, California does have to deal with its own regulatory 
issues and tax issues. There is a reason why, even when gas 
prices are low, you guys still tend to be among the highest. So 
I think part of it is a California issue.
    Ms. YOUNG KIM. Yeah----
    Mr. KEATING. But then, obviously, nationally, we are all 
dealing with the bottlenecks and the shortcomings and so on. 
So, again, I think it is a question of, yes, the private sector 
has got to work through this, but we have got to make sure that 
government allows private and doesn't get in the way of doing 
that.
    Ms. YOUNG KIM. Thank you very, very much.
    I am happy to yield back the balance of my time.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentleman from Minnesota, Mr. 
Phillips, Chairman of the Subcommittee on Oversight, 
Investigation, and Regulations.
    Mr. PHILLIPS. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    Greetings, colleagues, and great gratitude to our witnesses 
for being with us today.
    We all know the pandemic is wreaked havoc on our small 
business ecosystem, both in the U.S. and around the world. The 
recent surge in entrepreneurial activity, however, is really a 
welcome silver lining, I think we would all agree. They 
represent seeds of optimism, if you will. Now, we, Democrats 
and Republicans on this committee, have to do everything we can 
to water those seeds and ensure new businesses have access to 
the resources and mentorship and assistance necessary for them 
to keep their doors open and generate economic success.
    And, you know, I think it is fair to say that all of us on 
this committee want to see Americans become self-sufficient. 
But too many people who have dreams, entrepreneurial dreams and 
ideas, still can't access capital, mentorship, counsel, and 
assistance. I hope we can unite around this.
    And my first question is to you, Ms. DeVane. And I think it 
is fair to say that human beings tend to seek out others who 
share similarities. It is part of the human condition. It is 
also a phenomenon that, in my estimation, can adversely affect 
already underserved communities. A lot of the credited 
investors are a disproportionate number, of course, in America 
are older, White, and male, frankly, like me, and they tend to 
invest in entrepreneurs who share similar backgrounds. And you 
have noted in your testimony that this contributes to the very 
disparities we are talking about between White and minority-
owned business owners and their abilities to access capital and 
counsel. So if you might just detail for us policies that you 
think can directly address that issue and help underserved 
communities with entrepreneurial dreams and ideas gain access 
to credit and other federal resources.
    Ms. DeVANE. Certainly. Thank you for the question, 
Representative Phillips. I think that one of the things that 
needs to be addressed--and we have done this at the National 
Urban League. When the PPP program first came out and a lot of 
the Black-owned and other minority-owned businesses didn't have 
access, we worked with the government to make sure that 
minority depository institutions and CDFI, community-based and 
community mission-driven institutions played a role and had 
access to those programs so that they could provide those 
businesses with capital. Those are businesses that operate in 
underserved communities. They are trusted by those communities. 
Having support and the government supporting those types of 
financial institutions is certainly a ticket.
    Also, ensuring that SBA lenders, many who our business 
owners did not have relationships with, have access to and are 
incentivized to work with those small businesses and also to 
certainly provide small dollar loans with low interest rates 
that are accessible and reasonable for small businesses is 
something that the National Urban League is very interested in 
making sure that our business owners have access to.
    Mr. PHILLIPS. Great.
    If I could go a little further upstream, my friend and 
colleague Representative Van Duyne from Texas and I were 
speaking the other day about business day. I remember business 
day in my school, elementary school, where we learned to start 
a little organization, whether it is selling lemonade or a 
service or printing T-shirts, whatever you have. What do you 
think of that notion of trying to establish entrepreneurial 
education as part of the public curricula around the country so 
we can teach kids who don't have entrepreneurial models in 
their households or communities often, at least the 
underpinnings of business and try to encourage a more self-
sufficient entrepreneurial generation? What do you think of 
that notion?
    Ms. DeVANE. That is a great question, and we are huge 
supporters of that notion. In fact, we--you know, I live in New 
Rochelle, a little bit upstate of New York City, and our high 
school has an entrepreneurship program. And I am starting to 
see many of those, and we are fully supportive of those types 
of programs.
    It is never too early for a child to have an option not to 
go into the workforce but to be financially independent through 
owning their own business. And our Urban League affiliates are 
very successful, many of them, with youth entrepreneurship 
programs down in the elementary and the high school level.
    As a matter of fact, our Los Angeles Urban League recently 
over the summer held a small business camp for youth 
entrepreneurs, and one of our entrepreneurs was extremely 
successful, just got $10,000 through another organization 
pitching her business. And so, we are very much in support of 
youth entrepreneurship. It is never too early.
    Mr. PHILLIPS. Great. Since I only have 15 seconds left, if 
the three other witnesses would just raise your hand if you 
like that idea of trying to inspire business days and 
entrepreneurship education. Good. I like that. We don't see too 
much unanimity these days. Thank you all.
    I yield back my time and am grateful to all of you for 
being with us.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    The gentlelady from Texas, Ms. Van Duyne, Ranking Member of 
the Subcommittee on Oversight, Investigations, and Regulations 
is now recognized.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. Thank you very much, Ms. Chairwoman, and I 
appreciate Congressman or Chairman Phillips, your shoutout. 
Yeah. We have--it is amazing when you talk to each other how 
much you actually do have in common. And I appreciate your last 
question and everybody agreeing on it. When you actually try to 
find common ground, you can find it. So I appreciate that very 
much and all of you being with us today.
    Over the past 2 years, small businesses have struggled to 
survive in this new economy, as my colleagues on the other side 
have termed it. Now, as we look around, the environment our 
small businesses and entrepreneurs are living in is dismal. 
Every economic report we see falls short. GDP growth has slowed 
to 2 percent. If you take into account what folks had, it is 
actually zero percent that we have seen. Inflation has hit 
record levels, raising prices for all Americans, and labor is 
in short supply.
    At a time when small businesses need to focus on keeping 
their shelves stocked, they must begin planning for the higher 
taxes and increased regulations that come within the two 
historic new spending bills that some progressive Democrats are 
rushing to pass.
    If we want to retain our uniquely American entrepreneurial 
spirit, the government shouldn't be paying people to stay more 
at home and to work and trying to regulate American businesses 
out of existence. Instead, we should be pushing for lower taxes 
and lower barriers to entry for entrepreneurs.
    Mr. Keating, I really appreciate your comments here today. 
A recent World Economic Forum report pointed out that supply 
chain barriers are hard to overcome for small businesses due to 
the significant capital investments needed. You know, we have 
seen Target, Walmart, others are able to figure it out. They 
have got other avenues that small businesses simply don't. So, 
in your view, how do regulations impact small business supply 
chains and their ability to adjust compared with larger firms?
    Mr. KEATING. Well, by definition, greater regulation is 
going to make you less innovative, less--there is less agility 
there to respond as needed, so that is a big part of the supply 
chain challenges.
    Now, on the positive side, to go positive for a moment, one 
of the things about small businesses is that they are more 
agile, right, so they can work to find ways to perhaps meet, 
you know, the needs of their customers where bigger businesses 
might be a little slower. I am not denying your point. Your 
point is spot on in terms of the Walmarts and Amazons and so 
on, but the great thing about being a small business owner and 
entrepreneur is that you have that ability to pivot, and we 
have seen that in this pandemic.
    So the challenges are there. More regulation does not help. 
It hinders it. But being an entrepreneur in and of itself 
allows you to kind of do some things that a larger business 
can't.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. We just left--it is ironic because I just 
left. I am on the Transportation and Infrastructure committee 
as well, and we just had a focus on supply chain issues. We had 
folks there with trucking, with shipping logistics, and just 
talking about some of the barriers that government has actually 
put in their way of being able to be more productive, more 
efficient, and it is actually hurting the supply chain.
    One of the things that they discussed was the vaccine 
mandates. And, obviously, we are in a different moment 
laborwise. So we spoke with businesses of all sizes, and a 
common concern is the upcoming vaccine mandate that is being 
imposed by the Biden administration. How do you think this 
mandate will affect small businesses?
    Mr. KEATING. Well, that is the question, isn't it? And that 
is part of the problem is that we don't know. You know, our 
organization is--we say we are pro-vaccine, antimandate. 
Businesses are pretty good at figuring out their own situation 
and maybe how they might have to deal with certain employees in 
a certain way, right. When government steps in and does the 
mandate thing, that doesn't--you know, you don't have that 
ability to now deal with your particular situation and be able 
to deal with your particular employees. The flexibility is 
needed, I think, for small business owners in a big way.
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. I mean, the concern was--and I think you 
know our Transportation Secretary, Pete Buttigieg, was very 
callous in his response. The items in question are not simply 
Christmas gifts or toys. I mean, we are talking about liquid 
oxygen. We are talking about seeds and fertilizer to be able to 
put food into the ground for crops. We are talking----
    Mr. KEATING. Pharmaceuticals. I mean----
    Ms. VAN DUYNE. Pharmaceuticals, you know, things to be able 
to keep people's homes warm that don't live on the main grid. 
Can you explain to me some of these logistics concerns are 
moving forward, and if you have, in the next 18 seconds, any 
kind of federal regulations that you think are impeding our 
progress?
    Mr. KEATING. Oh, my goodness. Off the top of my head, I 
can't give you an exact regulation, but I think the key point 
that I would like to make is all of those industries you 
mentioned and every single other one are overwhelmingly 
populated by small businesses. So it is very important for 
lawmakers to understand that, whether you are talking about 
trucking, pharmaceuticals, all the way down the line, every one 
of those is about small businesses. The numbers are there. I 
mean, I can provide more data if you want, or you can go to 
our----
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. Time has expired.
    Mr. KEATING. Sorry.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady from Pennsylvania, Ms. 
Houlahan, is recognized for 5 minutes.
    Ms. HOULAHAN. Thank you, Madam Chair.
    And thank you very much to all of you all for coming and 
joining us today.
    My questions are going to be focused on ESG or 
environmental, social, and governance ideas, which I think are 
something that has gained a lot of traction over the past 15 or 
so years and across the nation. And, especially within my 
Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, business incubators have been 
serving as an important part to help startups and individual 
entrepreneurs scale their businesses, and they provide a range 
of services, as we have talked about, from legal advice to 
venture capital funding.
    But studies have shown and the pandemic has borne out that 
companies that have a strong environmental and social 
governance aspect or criteria to them have outperformed 
companies that did not during this very critical time. And, in 
fact, this initiative was started on the heels of 2007 and 
2008's financial meltdown.
    And so, as the cofounder, along with Representative 
Phillips, of the Stakeholder Capitalism Caucus and as an 
entrepreneur myself who has built a lot of CSR ESG companies, I 
really acutely and personally understand the importance of ESG 
as a model for investors to evaluate companies, for employees 
to decide which ones to work for, for communities to embrace 
these kinds of companies, for all of the different stakeholders 
who are involved in these small business enterprises to be able 
to understand what a good company looks like.
    So, starting with Mr. Keating, if I could, could I ask you 
to speak to any efforts that the incubator is acting on to 
encourage this kind of model for small businesses? And, if it 
is, can you discuss why this model is important during the 
midst of a pandemic or, frankly, at any point in time? And if 
the incubator does not encourage ESG criteria, can you explain 
why not?
    Mr. KEATING. I am not an expert in this area at all. The 
only thing I will say generally, as an economist, that I think 
it is great that we have all sorts of different business models 
out there. And, ultimately, consumer sovereignty, consumers in 
the end decide what works and what doesn't in the marketplace, 
and we will see that with these types of companies and other 
more traditional or innovative business models.
    Ms. HOULAHAN. I think it is beyond the consumer. I think it 
is also investors. I think it is also employees. I think it is 
kind of the entire ecosystem, the entire stakeholder ecosystem 
that makes the determination. And, as I mentioned, this kind of 
a company has really--I hesitate to say flourished because I 
don't think many of us have flourished during this difficult 
time, but I think they have proved more resilient than any 
other kind of corporation or structure.
    So I would like to throw that open to anybody else on the 
panel. Ms. Diop, perhaps if you have any input in that, whether 
or not you are aware of these kinds of ideas and whether or not 
you are embracing of them.
    Ms. DIOP. Thank you so much for your question, Ms. 
Houlahan. Certainly, it is not my area of expertise, but I am 
from Los Angeles, California, and environmental measures are 
very important to us out there and me personally. So I 
definitely think that access to more information about these 
types of programs so that small business owners or aspiring 
business owners could implement them into their business model 
would certainly be helpful. It would certainly be something 
that could even increase the awareness of these types of 
programs so that more people could participate.
    Ms. HOULAHAN. Thank you.
    Does anyone else on the panel have any input into this 
question before I move on?
    Mr. FOGATY. Yeah. This is Andrew. I would just like to say 
I agree with the points that have been made. Most of our 
entrepreneurs, especially the younger ones, are very sensitive 
to climate change and the challenges that they create. One of 
my client companies, Omni Ecosystems, was started by Molly 
Meyer. She has developed a low weight soil. This is a little 
bit out of my league, the science stuff, but it is a low weight 
soil so that now rooftop gardens or urban farms are much more 
viable options because they don't--it is lightweight soil, and 
it retains moisture. So, yeah, absolutely climate change and 
being aware of the ecological impact is very important among--
--
    Ms. HOULAHAN. Thank you, sir. And, as a point of 
clarification, although the E, obviously, in the ESG is for 
environmental, the S and the G are for social and governance as 
well, and they have everything as well to do with how a company 
is structured, whether or not all employees or some employees 
are included in things like equity decisions or whether the 
board is inclusive, those kinds of things, as well as making 
sure that we are thinking about the whole impact that a 
business has and that there aren't externalities that are 
passed on to other organizations.
    And, with that, I will yield back my time. I really 
appreciate you guys and the opportunity to speak to you.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentleman from New York, Mr. 
Garbarino, for 5 minutes.
    Mr. GARBARINO. Thank you, Madam Chair, and to the Ranking 
Member for hosting this hearing today, and thank you to the 
witnesses for being here.
    Mr. Fogaty, I have a question for you. You assist small 
businesses, business owners with business planning, market 
research, and financing. In the current economic turmoil of 
labor shortages, price spikes, supply chain disruptions, and 
inflation, what advice are you giving them?
    Mr. FOGATY. Well, it very much depends on what type of 
business that I am dealing with. Over the past 18 months or so, 
we have been very much focused on keeping--on having businesses 
survive, so things like EIDL and the Paycheck Protection 
Program and that type of thing. Startup funding is--and we are 
kind of repeating ourselves here, but startup funding is very 
much a challenge. I am sure the other guests on the panel would 
agree, and small business funding to grow, small loans below 
$50,000, are also very difficult to come by.
    So, as far as what I would--I would say that, for Congress, 
I would like to find some way, I would hope you would find some 
way of incentivizing banks to lend more to startups and in 
smaller amounts, and that is what I am really hoping. But, 
yeah, for the past 18 months, it has been a lot of work with 
government programs to make sure that the companies survive.
    Mr. GARBARINO. Okay. And then I imagine anybody dealing 
with getting companies to survive, a lot of businesses 
prepandemic did not have an online presence, and it was, I 
guess, for a lot of them to survive, they had to convert to at 
least having some sort of online presence.
    I am the Ranking Member on the Homeland Security 
Cybersecurity Committee as well, you know, and we have seen, 
especially in the past couple years, a lot of ransomware 
attacks, almost 50 percent of them, are targeted at small 
businesses in a small amount, but, you know, it is a small 
amount in the grand scheme of things but not to a small 
business, who has to pay a couple thousand dollars for a 
ransom.
    What are you--or any of the other witnesses on the panel 
today--what are you saying to clients or prospective clients or 
small business owners on how to deal with this issue because a 
lot of people don't understand cybersecurity? It is not at the 
top of their list when they are starting a business.
    Mr. FOGATY. The Illinois Small Business Development 
Centers, of which we are a part, we do host cybersecurity 
experts who have the--where they will come and speak to the 
small businesses. And, actually, the gallery incubator in 
Evanston where I am a volunteer mentor, they are--one of the 
founders is very savvy in the cybersecurity realm. So, yeah, I 
can't agree with you more. Cybersecurity is key. And certainly 
an online presence is absolutely vital to any small business.
    Mr. GARBARINO. And anybody else can jump in, but I would 
think most new people who start a business now realize they 
have to have an online business, but I guess some of the small 
businesses that have been around for a while, it is something 
they never had to do before. I don't know if Mr. Keating or Ms. 
DeVane or Ms. Diop want to join in, you know. What are you 
seeing with current small businesses, and how are they doing 
making this change?
    Ms. DeVANE. Sure. I would definitely add that you are a 
hundred percent on point. One of the things that we saw with 
our small businesses, many of our businesses are more mature in 
age and more traditional and really aren't savvy or were not 
savvy with social media and with technological changes. So, it 
was a real eye opener for them, and we really had to help them 
transition into the digital world. Some of that was by 
necessity because everything had to be Zoom, and nothing was in 
person, and everybody has phones.
    But the thing is that we really had to take the type to 
train them with those tools, branding, marketing your business 
in a world that is virtual, and social media was very 
important. And the other thing is through the CARES Act funding 
that we had, we ran about seven different webinars and 
workshops for businesses to help them with COVID, and one of 
those was on cybersecurity. We still provide access to that 
through all of our affiliates and online through the National 
Urban League's website, so folks can go in any time and look at 
that information.
    Mr. KEATING. If I could add, what is fascinating is some of 
the survey results that we have had in terms of the impact that 
this technology, social media, has had on starting up a 
business. You know, one of the results, we saw that 80 percent 
of people said that they were able to start up their business 
because of the affordable nature of online advertising. So it 
is not just--obviously, it is helping existing businesses, but 
it is also boosting startups, which is a very exciting aspect 
of this.
    Mr. GARBARINO. I appreciate that. And I believe I am out of 
time, so I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentleman yields back.
    Now we recognize the gentlelady from Florida, Ms. Salazar, 
for 5 minutes.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you, Chairman Velazquez and Ranking 
Member Luetkemeyer, for holding this important hearing.
    This comes at a pivotal time for countless small business 
owners and their families nationwide. And I wanted to thank all 
the guests that have been here and exposing their testimony, 
specifically, Mr. Raymond Keating. You were mentioning how 
constructive pro-immigration policy agenda would be good for 
the economy, and I completely agree, so I wanted to ask you, 
what are the major changes to the immigration system that you 
think we should be implementing in this country directly to 
improve the small business community space?
    Mr. KEATING. Well, I think that, number one, it is 
important to understand that foreign-born individuals have a 
much higher rate of entrepreneurship than native born. And that 
shouldn't surprise us because, you know, it is pretty risky to 
move from one country to another.
    Having said that, I think some sort of entrepreneurial 
visa, right, is critical. Why aren't we offering this and 
attracting entrepreneurs from around the world to the United 
States? There is no downside. I can't figure out any kind of 
downside, so I think that is step one.
    And then, obviously, step two is just getting more--our 
immigration policy more in tune with labor needs, you know. 
Right now, we are coming out of the pandemic, but not too far 
down the road, we are going to have additional problems in 
terms of working age population and so on, and at the other 
lower end of skills and the upper end of skills. So I think 
immigration can help us with that issue in a big way, but the 
entrepreneurship aspect is critical.
    Ms. SALAZAR. And, when you are talking about labor, you are 
talking about basically merit-based visas. What would be the 
ideal scenario, according to you?
    Mr. KEATING. Yeah. Well, I think that merit-based, the idea 
that this is what I want to do, I can do--what I can contribute 
to the United States as--you know, whether it is high-tech 
visas or, again, at the lower end of the skill level. So I 
think it is--we just have to be more cognizant of the realities 
in our economy. I mean, listen. I am an economist, so I like 
to--I would love our immigration policy to be focused more on 
economics than some of the politics that we hear being tossed 
about. And I think, when you look at the economics of 
immigration, listen. Every poll of economists always--they 
always come out lopsided that immigration is a net economic 
plus for our country. And it can be in all sorts of ways, 
whether it is lower skilled workers, as I said, high skilled or 
entrepreneurs.
    Ms. SALAZAR. So why do you think that we have not been able 
to pay attention to what the marketplace is saying? You say 
that you are an economist. How do you interpret?
    Mr. KEATING. Well, I think--again--yeah. I think the--I 
think it is politics overruling economics, unfortunately. I 
think--listen. We also--we have history. We are an 
entrepreneurial nation. We are a pro-immigration nation. We are 
a nation of immigrants; it is true. But we have also had our 
battles along the way where we have not been, at various times, 
you know, exactly friendly towards immigrants. So I think, to 
the extent that we can talk about how immigrant workers, for 
example, new immigrants coming to this country are willing to 
work, they are complementary to the people that are already 
here.
    So, for the most part, overwhelmingly--I mean, it is not 
even close--they are not taking jobs from somebody else. They 
are adding to the economy. And that is the part, I think, that 
we economists fall down on, right. We have to tell people that 
additional producers, additional consumers, and additional 
entrepreneurs all lead to economic growth. It is not a case 
that the pie is only so big, and we are going to divvy it up. 
So I think it is talking more about growth and how immigration 
can help.
    Ms. SALAZAR. And, finally, in the last minute that I have, 
I wanted to go back to the line that you said, that some people 
believe that new immigrants or newcomers are going to be taking 
jobs away from Americans. Why isn't that true?
    Mr. KEATING. Because, as I said, they--what you see in the 
research and, you know, in terms of economics straightforward 
is that they come in and largely are doing work that other 
people aren't doing. Either they don't want to do it, or we 
don't have enough people doing it. So, again, in filling those 
needs, those vacancies, that is how we say they are 
complementary workers. So, therefore, they are helping other 
people to be more productive. So it is a good news thing for 
everybody. But sometimes you would never understand--well, 
oftentimes, you don't understand that, listening to the 
politics of it.
    So, again, I think if we can get back to understanding the 
role that immigrants have in the workforce and their role in 
entrepreneurship, I think we can make some great headway in 
getting to a more constructive immigration policy.
    Ms. SALAZAR. So I like this complementary workers.
    Mr. KEATING. Yes. That is what they do, yeah.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Very good. Well, sir, thank you for explaining 
that to us. So you are telling me that it is up to us, the 
public servants, the people that have been elected, the 
politicians, to learn and to explain to the rest of the 
American population that the immigrants are coming to give, not 
to take away?
    Mr. KEATING. Absolutely. And, to the extent that we have 
political leaders that can do that, that is a huge plus to talk 
about, again, being a welcoming society and talking about how 
this is pro-growth, and it is good for everybody.
    Ms. SALAZAR. Thank you.
    I yield back.
    Chairwoman VELAZQUEZ. The gentlelady yields back.
    Thank you so very much to all the witnesses.
    Mr. Keating, I didn't have time to ask you a question, but 
I really appreciate your answers to Ms. Salazar regarding 
immigration. I think this is a part of a discussion that needs 
to happen among Members of Congress and that we approach this 
issue with the honesty that it requires.
    With that, I want to thank all of the witnesses for being 
here today. Your testimony is proof that, even in the darkest 
of times, the spirit of America's entrepreneurs shines bright. 
The post-pandemic economy presents many opportunities and 
challenges for small business owners. As the voice of small 
businesses in Washington, we must work as a committee to 
support these new business owners and help their firms 
flourish. These new businesses will be critical as we work 
towards full economic recovery and future growth. I look 
forward to working with Committee Members to ensure that small 
businesses have the resources they need to navigate this 
changing economy.
    I ask unanimous consent that the article and report by the 
Kauffman Foundation entitled ``America's New Business Plan'' is 
submitted for the record.
    With that, I will ask unanimous consent that Members have 5 
legislative days to submit statements and supporting materials 
for the record.
    Without objection, so ordered.
    If there is no further business to come before the 
committee, we are adjourned. Thank you.
    [Whereupon, at 12:06 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
                            
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