[House Hearing, 116 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]


                   LIFTING VOICES: LEGISLATION TO PROMOTE 
                          MEDIA MARKETPLACE DIVERSITY

=======================================================================

                                HEARING

                               BEFORE THE

                   SUBCOMMITTEE ON COMMUNICATIONS AND 
                               TECHNOLOGY

                                 OF THE

                    COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE
                        HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                     ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS

                             SECOND SESSION

                               __________

                            JANUARY 15, 2020

                               __________

                           Serial No. 116-90
                           
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]                           


      Printed for the use of the Committee on Energy and Commerce

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                   COMMITTEE ON ENERGY AND COMMERCE

                     FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey
                                 Chairman
BOBBY L. RUSH, Illinois              GREG WALDEN, Oregon
ANNA G. ESHOO, California              Ranking Member
ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York             FRED UPTON, Michigan
DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado              JOHN SHIMKUS, Illinois
MIKE DOYLE, Pennsylvania             MICHAEL C. BURGESS, Texas
JAN SCHAKOWSKY, Illinois             STEVE SCALISE, Louisiana
G. K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina    ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio
DORIS O. MATSUI, California          CATHY McMORRIS RODGERS, Washington
KATHY CASTOR, Florida                BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky
JOHN P. SARBANES, Maryland           PETE OLSON, Texas
JERRY McNERNEY, California           DAVID B. McKINLEY, West Virginia
PETER WELCH, Vermont                 ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            H. MORGAN GRIFFITH, Virginia
PAUL TONKO, New York                 GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida
YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York, Vice     BILL JOHNSON, Ohio
    Chair                            BILLY LONG, Missouri
DAVID LOEBSACK, Iowa                 LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana
KURT SCHRADER, Oregon                BILL FLORES, Texas
JOSEPH P. KENNEDY III,               SUSAN W. BROOKS, Indiana
    Massachusetts                    MARKWAYNE MULLIN, Oklahoma
TONY CARDENAS, California            RICHARD HUDSON, North Carolina
RAUL RUIZ, California                TIM WALBERG, Michigan
SCOTT H. PETERS, California          EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia
DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan             JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina
MARC A. VEASEY, Texas                GREG GIANFORTE, Montana
ANN M. KUSTER, New Hampshire
ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
NANETTE DIAZ BARRAGAN, California
A. DONALD McEACHIN, Virginia
LISA BLUNT ROCHESTER, Delaware
DARREN SOTO, Florida
TOM O'HALLERAN, Arizona
                                 ------                                

                           Professional Staff

                   JEFFREY C. CARROLL, Staff Director
                TIFFANY GUARASCIO, Deputy Staff Director
                MIKE BLOOMQUIST, Minority Staff Director
             Subcommittee on Communications and Technology

                        MIKE DOYLE, Pennsylvania
                                 Chairman
JERRY McNERNEY, California           ROBERT E. LATTA, Ohio
YVETTE D. CLARKE, New York             Ranking Member
DAVID LOEBSACK, Iowa                 JOHN SHIMKUS, Illinois
MARC A. VEASEY, Texas                STEVE SCALISE, Louisiana
A. DONALD McEACHIN, Virginia         PETE OLSON, Texas
DARREN SOTO, Florida                 ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
TOM O'HALLERAN, Arizona              GUS M. BILIRAKIS, Florida
ANNA G. ESHOO, California            BILL JOHNSON, Ohio
DIANA DeGETTE, Colorado              BILLY LONG, Missouri
G. K. BUTTERFIELD, North Carolina    BILL FLORES, Texas
DORIS O. MATSUI, California, Vice    SUSAN W. BROOKS, Indiana
    Chair                            TIM WALBERG, Michigan
PETER WELCH, Vermont                 GREG GIANFORTE, Montana
BEN RAY LUJAN, New Mexico            GREG WALDEN, Oregon (ex officio)
KURT SCHRADER, Oregon
TONY CARDENAS, California
DEBBIE DINGELL, Michigan
FRANK PALLONE, Jr., New Jersey (ex 
    officio)
                             C O N T E N T S

                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
Hon. Mike Doyle, a Representative in Congress from the 
  Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, opening statement................     1
    Prepared statement...........................................     2
Hon. Robert E. Latta, a Representative in Congress from the State 
  of Ohio, prepared statement....................................     4
    Prepared statement...........................................     5
Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the 
  State of New Jersey, opening statement.........................     6
    Prepared statement...........................................     6
Hon. Greg Walden, a Representative in Congress from the State of 
  Oregon, opening statement......................................     8
    Prepared statement...........................................     9
Hon. Anna G. Eshoo, a Representative in Congress from the State 
  of California, prepared statement..............................    83

                               Witnesses

Clint Odom, Senior Vice President, Advocacy and Policy, and 
  Executive Director, Washington Bureau, National Urban League...    10
    Prepared statement...........................................    13
Catherine J. K. Sandoval, Associate Professor, Santa Clara 
  University School of Law.......................................    17
    Prepared statement...........................................    19
Maurita Coley, President and CEO of Multicultural Media, Telecom 
  and Internet Council...........................................    40
    Prepared statement...........................................    42
Diane Sutter, President and CEO of ShootingStar Broadcasting, 
  National Association of Broadcasters...........................    47
    Prepared statement...........................................    49

                           Submitted Material

H.R. 549, Reaffirming the commitment to media diversity and 
  pledging to work with media entities and diverse stakeholders 
  to develop common ground solutions to eliminate barriers to 
  media diversity................................................    85
H.R. 3957, Expanding Broadcast Ownership Opportunities Act of 
  2019...........................................................    88
H.R. 5564, Enhancing Broadcaster Diversity Data Act..............   100
H.R. 5567, the MEDIA Diversity Act of 2020.......................   105
Letter of January 15, 2020, by Vanita Gupta, President and CEO, 
  Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, to Mr. 
  Pallone, et al., submitted by Mr. Doyle........................   107
Letter of January 14, 2020, by Mike Gravino, Director, from the 
  LPTV Spectrum Rights Coalition, to Mr. Pallone, et al., 
  submitted by Mr. Doyle.........................................   112
Letter of January 14, 2020, from Brenda Victoria Castillo, 
  President and CEO, National Hispanic Media Coalition, to Mr. 
  Doyle, et al., submitted by Mr. Doyle..........................   114
Letter of January 14, 2020, by Bertram Lee and Jenna Leventoff, 
  Public Knowledge, to Mr. Pallone, et al., submitted by Mr. 
  Doyle..........................................................   120
Survey of 2019 National Association for Mullti-Ethnicity in 
  Communications and Women in Cable Telecommunications Diversity, 
  by the Walter Kaitz Foundation, submitted by Mr. Doyle \1\
Statement ``Multicultural Media, Telecom and Internet Council, 
  Multicultural Media, Telecom, and Internet Council Supports 
  Congressman Butterfield's `Expanding Broadcast Opportunities 
  Act' to Restore the FCC's Tax Certificate Policy and Expand the 
  Broadcast Incubator Program,'' submitted by Mr. Doyle..........   122
Letter of September 3, 2019, by Maurita Coley, President and CEO, 
  et al., Multicultural Media, Telecom and Internet Council, 
  Multicultural Media, Telecom, and Internet Council, to Rosemary 
  Harold, submitted by Mr. Doyle.................................   123
Letter of December 11, 2019, by David Honig, President Emeritus 
  and Senior Advisor Multicultural Media, Telecom and Internet 
  Council, to Hon. Pai, et al., submitted by Mr. Doyle \2\
Review of September 20, 2019, from the EEO Supporters, to the 
  Commission, submitted by Mr. Doyle \3\
Review of November 4, 2019, from David Honig, President Emeritus 
  and Senior Advisor, Multicultural Media, Telecom and Internet 
  Council Conveners, EEO Supporters, to the Federal 
  Communications Commission, submitted by Mr. Doyle..............   130
Report ``Changes, Challenges and Charting New Courses: Minority 
  Commercial Broadcast Ownership in the United States,'' 
  submitted by Mr. Doyle \4\
Article ``How the FCC Suppressed Minority Broadcast Ownership, 
  and How the FCC can Undo the Damage it Caused'' by David Honig, 
  submitted by Mr. Doyle \5\
Remarks, by Chairman Ajit Pai at MMTC's 9th Annual Broadband and 
  Social Justice Summit, submitted by Mr. Doyle..................   139

----------
\1\ The information has been retained in committee files and also 
  is available at https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF16/
  20200115/110373/HHRG-116-IF16-20200115-SD007.pdf.
\2\ The information has been retained in committee files and also 
  is available at https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF16/
  20200115/110373/HHRG-116-IF16-20200115-SD010.pdf.
\3\ The information has been retained in committee files and also 
  is available at https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF16/
  20200115/110373/HHRG-116-IF16-20200115-SD011.pdf.
\4\ The information has been retained in committee files and also 
  is available at https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF16/
  20200115/110373/HHRG-116-IF16-20200115-SD013.pdf.
\5\ The information has been retained in committee files and also 
  is available at https://docs.house.gov/meetings/IF/IF16/
  20200115/110373/HHRG-116-IF16-20200115-SD014.pdf.

 
   LIFTING VOICES: LEGISLATION TO PROMOTE MEDIA MARKETPLACE DIVERSITY

                              ----------                              


                      WEDNESDAY, JANUARY 15, 2020

                  House of Representatives,
     Subcommittee on Communications and Technology,
                          Committee on Energy and Commerce,
                                                    Washington, DC.
    The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:30 a.m., in 
room 2322 Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Mike Doyle 
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
    Members present: Representatives Doyle, McNerney, Clarke, 
Loebsack, Veasey, Soto, O'Halleran, DeGette, Butterfield, 
Schrader, Cardenas, Pallone (ex officio), Latta (subcommittee 
ranking member), Bilirakis, Johnson, Long, Flores, Brooks, 
Walberg, Gianforte, and Walden (ex officio).
    Also present: Representative Rush.
    Staff present: A. J. Brown, Counsel; Jeffrey C. Carroll, 
Staff Director; Parul Desai, FCC Detailee; Jennifer Epperson, 
Counsel; Evan Gilbert, Deputy Press Secretary; Waverly Gordon, 
Deputy Chief Counsel; Alex Hoehn-Saric, Chief Counsel, 
Communications and Consumer Protection; Jerry Leverich, Senior 
Counsel; Dan Miller, Senior Policy Analyst; Phil Murphy, Policy 
Coordinator; Alivia Roberts, Press Assistant; Tim Robinson, 
Chief Counsel; Rebecca Tomilchik, Staff Assistant; Mike 
Bloomquist, Minority Staff Director; William Clutterbuck, 
Minority Staff Assistant; Jordan Davis, Minority Senior 
Advisor; Michael Engel, Minority Detailee, Communications and 
Technology; Peter Kielty, Minority General Counsel; Ryan Long, 
Minority Deputy Staff Director; Kate O'Connor, Minority Chief 
Counsel, Communications and Technology; Brannon Rains, Minority 
Staff Assistant; and Evan Viau, Minority Professional Staff, 
Communications and Technology.
    Mr. Doyle. The committee will now come to order. The Chair 
recognizes himself for 5 minutes for an opening statement.

   OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MIKE DOYLE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
         CONGRESS FROM THE COMMONWEALTH OF PENNSYLVANIA

    Well, good morning, everyone, and welcome to the 
Subcommittee on Communication and Technology's legislative 
hearing on Lifting Voices: Legislation to Promote Media 
Marketplace Diversity.
    I would like to thank our witnesses for appearing before 
the subcommittee today.
    Today, we will discuss four pieces of legislation that seek 
to address a fundamental shortfall in our nation's media 
landscape: the lack of female and minority employment in and 
ownership of traditional media distribution outlets.
    In the United States, women and people of color own less 
than ten percent of all commercial radio and TV stations. We 
know that media outlets reflect the values and priorities of 
their owners and their employees. So, it is critical that we 
find ways to make these distribution channels more reflective 
of our country's racial and demographic makeup so that our 
media may effectively serve the needs of the diverse 
communities that make up our nation.
    Studies have shown that broadcast television and radio 
continue to be crucial sources of news, public safety 
information, and entertainment for everyone, but especially so 
for minority communities. It is critical that these outlets 
provide a diverse array of local voices that speak to the needs 
of the communities they serve and that is where these 
statistics about female and minority ownership are telling us 
that we are coming up short. That is one reason I am happy that 
we will be considering H.R. 3957, the Expanding Broadcast 
Ownership Opportunities Act, introduced by Mr. Butterfield.
    Mr. Doyle. This legislation would reinstate the Tax 
Certificate Program for socially disadvantaged individuals at 
the FCC. This program would incentivize sales of broadcast TV 
and radio station to women and people of color.
    We will also consider H. Res. 549 introduced by Ms. 
Demings.
    Mr. Doyle. This resolution affirms the commitment of the 
House to media diversity and pledges that Congress will work 
with media entities and diverse stakeholders to develop common 
ground solutions to eliminate barriers to media diversity.
    Next, we will consider H.R. 5564, the Enhancing Broadcaster 
DIVERSITY Data Act, introduced by Ms. Clarke, which would 
require the FCC to complete its rulemaking reviewing the Equal 
Employment Opportunity rules.
    Mr. Doyle. The bill also requires the FCC to create a 
public, searchable database of the broadcast ownership data 
collected by the FCC.
    And finally, we will discuss H.R. 5567, the MEDIA Diversity 
Act, introduced by Mr. Long and Mr. Veasey, which would require 
the FCC to consider, with the input of its Office of 
Communication Business Opportunities of the Commission, market 
entry barriers for socially disadvantaged individuals in the 
communications marketplace.
    Mr. Doyle. So, I look forward to the discussion on the 
legislation before us today and I wish to yield the balance of 
time to my good friend and a true leader on these issues, Mr. 
Butterfield.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Doyle follows:]

                 Prepared Statement of Hon. Mike Doyle

    Good morning, and welcome to the Subcommittee on 
Communication and Technology's legislative hearing on ``Lifting 
Voices: Legislation to Promote Media Marketplace Diversity.'' 
I'd like to thank our witnesses for appearing before the 
Subcommittee.
    Today, we will discuss four pieces of legislation that seek 
to address a fundamental shortfall in our nation's media 
landscape--the lack of female and minority employment in and 
ownership of traditional media distribution outlets.
    In the United States, women and people of color own less 
than ten percent of all commercial radio and television 
stations.
    We know that media outlets reflect the values and 
priorities of their owners and their employees.
    It's critical that we find ways to make these distribution 
channels more reflective of our country's racial and 
demographic makeup so that our media may effectively serve the 
needs of the diverse communities that make up our nation.
    Studies have shown that broadcast television and radio 
continue to be crucial sources of news, public safety 
information, and entertainment for everyone, but in particular 
minority communities.
    It is critical that these outlets provide a diverse array 
of local voices that speak to the needs of the communities they 
serve, and that's where these statistics about female and 
minority ownership are telling us we are coming up short.
    That's one reason I'm happy that we will be considering 
H.R. 3957, the "Expanding Broadcast Ownership Opportunities 
Act" introduced by Mr. Butterfield.
    This legislation would reinstate the tax certificate 
program for socially disadvantaged individuals at the FCC.
    This program would incentivize sales of broadcast TV and 
radio stations to women and people of color.
    We will also consider H. Res. 549, introduced by Ms. 
Demings.
    This resolution affirms the commitment of the House to 
media diversity and pledges that Congress will work with media 
entities and diverse stakeholders to develop common ground 
solutions to eliminate barriers to media diversity.
    Next, we will consider H.R. 5564, the ``Enhancing 
Broadcaster DIVERSITY Data Act'' introduced by Ms. Clarke, 
which would require the FCC to complete its rulemaking 
reviewing the equal employment opportunity rules.
    The bill also requires the FCC to create a public, 
searchable database of the broadcast ownership data collected 
by the FCC.
    Finally, we will discuss H.R. 5567, the ``MEDIA Diversity 
Act'' introduced by Mr. Long and Mr. Veasey, which would 
require the FCC to consider, with the input of its Office of 
Communications Business Opportunities of the Commission, market 
entry barriers for socially disadvantaged individuals in the 
communications marketplace.
    I look forward to the discussion on the legislation before 
us today.

    I yield the balance of my time to my good friend and a true 
leader on these issues, Mr. Butterfield.
    Mr. Butterfield. Thank you very much, Chairman Doyle, and 
to you, Chairman Pallone. Thank you very much for your 
willingness to put this up for a hearing today. We have been 
talking about it for several months now and you promised me a 
hearing and, today, you have made it happen. So, thank you so 
very much.
    Historically, Mr. Chairman, the number of minority- and 
women-owned commercial broadcast stations has been abysmally 
low, never rising above three and six percent, respectively. 
This lack of racial and gender diversity in ownership stems 
directly from past discriminatory barriers designed to exclude 
certain groups from the market. The FCC, itself, routinely 
discriminated against qualified African Americans, refusing to 
grant its first broadcast license to an applicant of color 
until 1949, decades after the first license was issued. Such 
obstacles have frustrated the ability of women and minorities 
to access the information, resources, and capital needed to 
purchase broadcast stations.
    In 1978, the Commission established the Minority Tax 
Certificate Program, providing a tax incentive to those who 
sold their stations to minorities. While in existence, the 
certificate boosted ownership exponentially, raising the number 
of minority stations from 48 to 323. It is time for Congress, 
and I hope in a bipartisan manner, to do its part to ensure 
that women and minorities have equal access to the ownership 
market.
    That is why I introduced 3957. The bill would reinstate and 
expand the Tax Certificate Program at the FCC and increase the 
Commission's ownership reporting requirements. I believe that 
these actions, along with the other bills we considered here 
today, are important first steps toward a truly equitable media 
marketplace.
    I thank the witnesses for their testimony today. I thank my 
friends on both sides of the aisle for embracing this 
legislation and I look forward for it to having a good markup, 
passing the House, passing the Senate, and being signed by the 
President.
    Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman yields back and I yield back my 
time.
    The Chair now recognizes Mr. Latta, the ranking member, for 
5 minutes for his opening statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ROBERT E. LATTA, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
                CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OHIO

    Mr. Latta. Well, thanks, Mr. Chairman, and good morning, 
and welcome to our first hearing of the New Year.
    I would like to start by thanking my Democratic colleagues 
for continuing to work with us last year to complete many of 
the bipartisan priorities that began under the leadership of 
the committee Republicans. Our multi-Congress effort is now 
close to bearing fruit on issues like broadband mapping and 
supply chain security. We will continue to push these measures 
forward.
    But for now, I want to thank my friends across the aisle 
for committing to hold today's hearing in that same bipartisan 
spirit.
    I also wanted to note that, during our majority, we tended 
to have educational hearings dedicated to understanding the 
issues we sought to legislate. Although we are moving straight 
to a legislative hearing today, I appreciate my colleagues 
reaching across the aisle to hold a hearing on such an 
important topic as we have today, just before the Martin Luther 
King holiday.
    Traditionally, discussions on Capitol Hill and over at the 
Federal Communications Commission about the media marketplace 
have focused on the examination of media ownership rules. And I 
know, Mr. Chairman, we may have differing views on that topic 
but, today, we are here to discuss ideas on how we can promote 
diversity in the media marketplace, a goal all of us share on 
this dais.
    The FCC regulates broadcast stations with the goal of 
promoting a diversity of voices that best serve the public 
interest. Therefore, in an ever-changing media marketplace, it 
is essential that the FCC consistently take a look at how its 
rules and regulations reflect the media landscape and see if 
they continue to promote diversity. That is why I am pleased to 
be considering legislation today from Representative Billy 
Long, H.R. 5567, the MEDIA Diversity Act that requires the FCC 
to collect information that considers market entry barriers for 
socially disadvantaged individuals in the communications 
marketplace.
    Although the ideas and concepts presented at today's 
hearings are not an exhaustive list, they represent a good 
first step toward considering how to increase opportunities and 
lift the voices of under-represented groups in media.
    I would also like to take this opportunity to thank the 
broadcasters and MVPDs for taking numerous voluntary steps to 
promote viewpoint, ownership, and employment diversity. Many 
have established programs to hire and promote women, people of 
color, and veterans into executive leadership positions or 
programs to encourage local journalism that reflects the 
communities these media entities serve.
    I know broadcasters and MVPDs are taking big strides to 
ensure the news and entertainment they produce reflect the 
interest of people in the communities they serve. Despite these 
steps forward, more work must be done.
    I welcome today's testimony and looking forward to hearing 
any additional ideas the panelists or others may have on how we 
may better promote media diversity without a heavy hand of 
owners' regulation on media entities.
    And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance of my 
time.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Latta follow:]

               Prepared Statement of Hon. Robert E. Latta

    Good morning, and welcome to our first hearing of the new 
year. I would like to start by thanking my Democratic 
colleagues for continuing to work with us last year to complete 
many of the bipartisan priorities that began under the 
leadership of Committee Republicans. Our multi-Congress effort 
is now close to bearing fruit on issues like broadband mapping 
and supply chain security. We will continue to push these 
measures forward but for now, I want to thank my friends across 
the aisle for committing to hold today's hearing in that same 
bipartisan spirit. I also want to note that during our 
majority, we tended to have educational hearings dedicated to 
understanding the issues we sought to legislate. Although we 
are moving straight to a legislative hearing today, I 
appreciate my colleagues' reaching across the aisle to hold a 
hearing on such an important and timely topic, with the Martin 
Luther King Junior holiday just around the corner.
    Traditionally, discussions on Capitol Hill and over at the 
Federal Communications Commission about the media marketplace 
have focused on the examination of Media Ownership rules; and I 
know, Mr. Chairman, we may have differing views on that topic. 
But today, we are here to discuss ideas on how we can promote 
diversity in the media marketplace-a goal all of us on this 
dais share. The FCC regulates broadcast stations with the goal 
of promoting a diversity of voices that best serve the public 
interest. Therefore, in an ever-changing media marketplace, it 
is essential that the FCC consistently take a look at how its 
rules and regulations reflect the media landscape and see if 
they continue to promote diversity. That is why I am pleased to 
be considering legislation today from Representative Billy 
Long, H.R. 5567, the MEDIA Diversity Act, that requires the FCC 
to collect information that considers market entry barriers for 
socially disadvantaged individuals in the communications 
marketplace.
    Although the ideas and concepts presented in today's 
hearing are not an exhaustive list, they represent a good first 
step toward considering how to increase opportunities and lift 
the voices of underrepresented groups in media.
    I would also like to take this opportunity to thank 
broadcasters and MVPDs for taking numerous voluntary steps to 
promote viewpoint, ownership, and employment diversity. Many 
have established programs to hire and promote women, people of 
color, and veterans into executive leadership positions, or 
programs to encourage local journalism that reflects the 
communities these media entities serve. I know broadcasters and 
MVPDs are taking big strides to ensure the news and 
entertainment they produce reflects the interests of people in 
the communities they serve.
    Despite these steps forward, more work must be done. I 
welcome today's testimony and look forward to hearing any 
additional ideas the panelists or others may have on how we may 
better promote media diversity without a heavy hand of onerous 
regulation on media entities.
    Thank you, and I yield the balance of my time.

    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair now recognizes Mr. Pallone, chairman of the full 
committee, for 5 minutes for his opening statement.

OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. FRANK PALLONE, Jr., A REPRESENTATIVE 
            IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY

    Mr. Pallone. Thank you, Chairman Doyle.
    It is timely that we are holding this hearing today to 
discuss the lack of ownership and employment diversity in the 
media marketplace. Earlier this week, there was a lot of 
criticism about the Academy Award nominations for lack of 
diversity in the acting and directing categories. This same 
criticism holds true with media ownership. I don't think anyone 
can dispute that ownership of our media does not reflect the 
diversity of our country.
    The numbers are clear and alarming. While women and people 
of color make up over 50 percent of our population, broadcast 
ownership by them hovers around ten percent and we have to do 
better. Representation matters because the people behind the 
scenes influence the programming that we see and hear and that 
programing plays a critical role in our democratic process in 
influencing people's perspectives.
    In the early days of broadcasting, it was virtually 
impossible for women and people of color to hold media outlets. 
Today, the opportunities are not impossible but they are still 
very limited. Women and people of color can still face 
discrimination when it comes to accessing capital and, as a 
result, we are far more likely to see consolidation than 
diversity when an outlet is sold.
    And while I would hope large media companies would reflect 
the diversity of the communities they serve, women and people 
of color are, unfortunately, under-represented in their 
executive suites. We also do not have any data to better 
understand employment demographic trends because the FCC has 
failed to collect that data for nearly 20 years, and this is 
extremely unfortunate. Diverse employment is just as critical 
as diverse ownership. It is the executives and producers who 
influence programming decisions, which news stories to cover, 
and importantly, how to cover a story.
    So I am pleased that we are here today with bipartisan 
efforts to improve diversity in the media marketplace. 
Representative Butterfield's bill would reinstate the 
successful Tax Certificate Program; Representative Clarke's 
bill ensures that FCC's data is analyzed and not simply 
reported; and legislation from Representatives Long and Veasey 
requires the FCC to examine market entry barriers for women and 
people of color. I commend these members for their leadership. 
It is imperative that Congress, the FCC, and all interested 
stakeholders work together to help bring more diversity to our 
nation's media ownership.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Pallone follows:]

             Prepared Statement of Hon. Frank Pallone, Jr.

    It is timely that we are holding this hearing today to 
discuss the lack of ownership and employment diversity in the 
media marketplace. Earlier this week, there was a lot of 
criticism about the Academy Award nominations for a lack of 
diversity in the acting and directing categories. This same 
criticism holds true with media ownership. I do not think 
anyone can dispute that ownership of our media does not reflect 
the diversity of our country.
    The numbers are clear--and alarming. While women and people 
of color make up over fifty percent of our population, 
broadcast ownership by them hovers around ten percent. We must 
do better.
    Representation matters because the people behind the scenes 
influence the programming that we see and hear. And that 
programming plays a critical role in our democratic process and 
influencing people's perspectives.
    In the early days of broadcasting, it was virtually 
impossible for women and people of color to own media outlets. 
Today, the opportunities are not impossible but are still very 
limited. Women and people of color can still face 
discrimination when it comes to accessing capital, and, as a 
result, we are far more likely to see consolidation than 
diversity when an outlet is sold.
    While I would hope large media companies would reflect the 
diversity of the communities they serve, women and people of 
color are, unfortunately, underrepresented in their executive 
suites. We also do not have any data to better understand 
employment demographic trends because the Federal 
Communications Commission (FCC) has failed to collect that data 
for nearly 20 years. This is extremely unfortunate--diverse 
employment is just as critical as diverse ownership. It's the 
executives and producers who influence programming decisions, 
which news stories to cover, and importantly, how to cover a 
story.
    I am pleased that we are here today--with bipartisan 
efforts--to improve diversity in the media marketplace.
    Representative Butterfield's bill would reinstate the 
successful tax certificate program. Representative Clarke's 
bill ensures that the FCC's data is analyzed and not simply 
reported. And legislation from Representatives Long and Veasey 
requires the FCC to examine market entry barriers for women and 
people of color.
    I commend these members for their leadership. It is 
imperative that Congress, the FCC, and all interested 
stakeholders work together to help bring more diversity to our 
nation's media ownership.

    And with that, I yield the time remaining--well; I guess I 
am splitting it between Representative Butterfield--what is 
that?
    Mr. Butterfield. Just Yvette.
    The Chairman. Oh, just you? Only you? All right, I yield 
then to----
    Ms. Clarke. Only me.
    The Chairman [continuing]. Representative Clarke, the rest 
of my time.
    Ms. Clarke. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our 
subcommittee chairman and our ranking member. I thank you for 
yielding the time and Chairman Doyle for convening the 
subcommittee hearing today promoting media marketplace 
diversity.
    As a co-chair of the Multicultural Media Caucus, along with 
Congressman Tony Cardenas and Congresswoman Judy Chu, I am 
reminded of the important role each of us plays in a larger 
fight for a more diverse and inclusive future.
    During my tenure in Congress, I have dedicated my time to 
issues related to the state of diversity and inclusion in the 
media, telecom and tech industry spaces. One of my goals is to 
ensure diverse voices are being represented on and off screen, 
which includes ownership in traditional media distribution 
outlets.
    Today, our committee will discuss legislation that seeks to 
help address ownership diversity and access to capital for 
women and people of color, including my bill, H.R. 5564, the 
Enhancing Broadcaster DIVERSITY Data Act. This bill calls for 
stronger reporting by the FCC to complete its rulemaking, 
reviewing its broadcast and cable EEO rules, and to create a 
searchable database of the collected data.
    I want to thank my colleagues and the witnesses for being 
here today to help transform our world into a more equitable 
space, where a myriad of thoughts, experiences, and points of 
view can be utilized to strengthen our society.
    I look forward to hearing your testimony, and I thank you, 
and yield back to you the balance of the time.
    Mr. Doyle. Does the gentleman yield back?
    Mr. Pallone. I yield back, Mr. Chair.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now 
recognizes Mr. Walden, ranking member of the full committee, 
for 5 minutes for his opening statement.

  OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. GREG WALDEN, A REPRESENTATIVE IN 
               CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OREGON

    Mr. Walden. Well, good morning and thanks to you for having 
this hearing and all of our witnesses for weighing in on this 
really important issue of media diversity. And while we have 
traditionally talked about promoting media diversity as it 
relates to the FCC's Quadrennial Review of medical ownership 
regulations, today's hearing, I am told, will instead focus on 
how to better understand the problem before us and how best to 
incentivize all media entities to create opportunities for and 
lift the voices of under-represented individuals, as the 
hearing suggests.
    Now I understand the efforts of the broadcast industry and 
the media industry as a whole take to ensure diversity of 
ownership, viewpoint, and employment. My wife and I were 50-50 
co-owners of our radio stations over the course of 21 years, 
probably the only one on the dais who has actually had to make 
these decisions in concert with my wife, who managed the 
business--decisions about hiring, decisions about programming, 
how to serve the local community. We created Spanish 
programming three nights a week on two of our stations that 
were live and local, with lots of dedications of songs and 
information to try and serve the growing Hispanic population in 
my community.
    So I appreciate the many steps that industry has taken to 
not only recognize and take responsibility for this issue but 
also the many programs and initiatives they put in place to 
promote opportunities for women, for minorities, for veterans. 
And I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about those in 
more detail today.
    I also want to mention that while this hearing is a great 
step forward to evaluate steps that can be taken to promote 
diversity in broadcasting, we can't solve the problem without 
looking at this issue through the media marketplace itself. The 
tech industry has increasingly become a prime competitor to 
traditional broadcasters and multichannel video programming 
distributors or MVPDs. One of the biggest problems facing the 
broadcast industry is a lack of financing. And as any business 
person knows, it is really difficult to create opportunities 
when there is a lack of cash flow.
    However, billions of dollars are being poured into creating 
more content now than ever before, which provides ample 
opportunity to promote diversity and programming. In addition 
to the focus on creating opportunities in executive leadership 
positions for minorities, women, and veterans, I am pleased to 
see other industry efforts underway that provide opportunities 
to diverse candidates for roles at every step of the content 
creation process. And while I recognize the FCC does not have 
jurisdiction over-the-top services, these services, 
nonetheless, should be an element of our conversation, as we 
examine voluntary efforts to promote diversity.
    Where the Commission can play a role, it appears they have. 
And while I won't get into the reasons about why some of this 
progress has been halted by the courts, it is important that we 
focus on the larger issue at hand: how to promote opportunity.
    Some of the bills before us today represent an important 
step forward to promoting diversity in the broadcast industry 
but, as I am sure witnesses will acknowledge, we have a lot 
more work to do.
    So I would like to thank my colleagues for their bipartisan 
work on this issue. And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back the balance 
of my time.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Walden follows:]

                 Prepared Statement of Hon. Greg Walden

    Good morning, and welcome to today's hearing on promoting 
media diversity. While we have traditionally talked about 
promoting media diversity as it relates to the FCC's 
quadrennial review of media ownership regulations, today's 
hearing will instead focus on how to better understand the 
problem before us and how best to incentivize all media 
entities to create opportunities for and lift the voices of 
underrepresented individuals, as the hearing title suggests.
    I understand the efforts the broadcast industry--and the 
media industry as a whole--takes to ensure diversity of 
ownership, viewpoint, and employment. As a former broadcaster 
and radio station owner, I believe I am the only person on this 
dais who has had to make those hiring decisions for a broadcast 
station. I know firsthand the business imperative to serve your 
local audience with local news and programming specific to your 
community, and what happens to advertising revenue when you 
don't ensure a rich diversity of content.
    So, I appreciate the many steps that industry has taken to 
not only recognize and take responsibility for the problem, but 
also the many programs and initiatives they have put in place 
to promote opportunities for women, minorities, and veterans, 
and I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about these 
today.
    I also want to mention that while this hearing is a great 
step forward to evaluate steps that can be taken to promote 
diversity in broadcasting, we can't solve the problem without 
looking at this issue across the media marketplace. The tech 
industry has increasingly become a prime competitor to 
traditional broadcasters and multichannel video programming 
distributors, or MVPDs. One of the biggest problems facing the 
broadcast industry is a lack of financing, and as any 
businessperson knows, it is difficult to create opportunities 
when there is a lack of cash flow. However, billions of dollars 
are being poured into creating more content now than ever 
before, which provides ample opportunity to promote diversity 
in programming. In addition to the focus on creating 
opportunities in executive leadership positions for minorities, 
women, and veterans, I'm pleased to see other industry efforts 
underway that provide opportunities to diverse candidates for 
roles at every step of the content creation process. While I 
recognize the FCC does not have jurisdiction of over-the-top 
services, these services nonetheless should be an element of 
our conversation examining voluntary efforts to promote 
diversity.
    Where the Commission can play a role, it appears they have. 
And while I won't get into the reasons about why some of this 
progress has been halted by the courts, it is important that we 
focus on the larger issue at hand: how to promote opportunity. 
Some of the bills before us today represent an important step 
forward to promote diversity in the broadcast industry but as 
I'm sure our witnesses will acknowledge, more work can be done.
    I would like to thank my colleagues for their bipartisan 
work on this issue and I yield back.

    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair would like to remind Members that, pursuant to 
committee rules, all Members' written opening statements will 
be made part of the record.
    [The information appears at the conclusion of the hearing.]
    Mr. Doyle. So, we would like to now introduce our witnesses 
for today's hearing. First, we have Mr. Clint Odom, Senior Vice 
President, Advocacy and Policy, and Executive Director, 
Washington Bureau, National Urban League. Welcome, Mr. Odom.
    Ms. Catherine Sandoval, Associate Professor at Santa Clara 
University School of Law, welcome.
    Ms. Maurita Coley, President and CEO of Multicultural 
Media, Telecom and Internet Council, welcome.
    And last but certainly not least, Ms. Diane Sutter, 
President and CEO of ShootingStar Broadcasting, and also 
someone who grew up in Pittsburgh. So, you get as much time as 
you would like when it is your turn to speak.
    So, we want to thank all our witnesses for joining us 
today. We look forward to your testimony.
    At this time, the Chair will now recognize each witness for 
5 minutes to provide their opening statement but, before we 
begin, I want to explain our lighting system.
    In front of you is a series of lights. The light will 
initially be green. The light will turn yellow and, when that 
light turns yellow, you have one minute to wrap up because once 
that light turns red, bad things happen. But please wrap up 
your testimony when the red light comes on.
    Now, we will start with Mr. Odom. You are recognized for 5 
minutes, sir.

 STATEMENTS OF CLINT ODOM, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, ADVOCACY AND 
  POLICY, AND EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WASHINGTON BUREAU, NATIONAL 
URBAN LEAGUE; CATHERINE J. K. SANDOVAL, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR AT 
SANTA CLARA UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW; MAURITA COLEY, PRESIDENT 
 AND CEO OF MULTICULTURAL MEDIA, TELECOM AND INTERNET COUNCIL; 
AND DIANE SUTTER, PRESIDENT AND CEO, SHOOTINGSTAR BROADCASTING, 
              NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF BROADCASTERS

                    STATEMENT OF CLINT ODOM

    Mr. Odom. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, 
Chairman Pallone, and Ranking Member Walden, and members of the 
subcommittee.
    I am Clint Odom, Senior Vice President in Policy and 
Advocacy, as you have heard, for the National Urban League. 
Since 1910, the League was established as a nonpartisan, 
nonprofit civil rights organization dedicated to the economic 
empowerment of African Americans and other underserved 
populations. We conduct our work through a network of 90 
affiliates across 36 States and the District of Columbia.
    I am here today to share our perspectives on proposed 
legislation and policies to advance the critical goal of media 
diversity. Before my current role, I served in the United 
States Senate as a staffer and as a senior staffer in the 
Federal Communications Commission. I now have the privilege of 
serving on the FCC's Advisory Committee on Diversity and 
Digital Empowerment under the leadership of Chairman Ajit Pai.
    African Americans represent 13.4 percent of the United 
States' population. We are also major consumers of media. 
According to Nielsen, African Americans spend more than 50 
hours a week watching live and time-shifted television, more 
than ten hours per week than the total population. Ninety-one 
percent of African Americans can be reached weekly through 
television. Yet we are woefully underrepresented as employees 
in the media industry and as owners of media businesses, 
particularly those businesses that rely on FCC licenses.
    According to a recent opinion piece by our president and 
CEO, Marc Morial and FCC Commissioner Jessica Rosenworcel, 
women own just seven percent of commercial TV stations; people 
of color only three percent of those stations; and people of 
color serve only as one in ten general managers of TV stations.
    According to data from the National Association of Black 
Owned Broadcasters, African Americans own 0.15 percent of full 
power commercial radio stations and one percent of the full 
power commercial TV stations in the United States. The owners 
of these TV stations could sit in the five seats at this 
witness table.
    The League broadly supports the legislation under 
consideration today. This body should reaffirm its commitment 
to media diversity and to policies that advance that goal. The 
Tax Certificate Program has always been considered an important 
but very modest proposal to address broadcast and media 
ownership that reflected few women and minorities. This program 
has always enjoyed bipartisan support. It is time for Congress 
to act.
    The League also supports legislation that would produce 
data around media ownership and employment. This represents a 
sound basis for policymaking. American management guru, Peter 
Drucker, memorialized the expression you can't manage what you 
can't measure. To that end, legislation sponsored by 
Representatives Clarke and Long represents a common sense 
approach for any diversity legislation or policies. The FCC has 
not adequately collected or shared with the public EEO data for 
20 years. We can't afford to keep our blinders on.
    While we will spend considerable time today talking about 
legislation, there have been some voluntary methods that the 
National Urban League and other civil rights organizations have 
championed that we think are worthy of at least notice.
    We have engaged directly with media companies, like 
Comcast/NBC Universal, Charter, T-Mobile, to develop diversity 
plans that have yielded commitments by these companies to 
improve the racial diversity on their Boards of Directors, in 
the c-suites with corporate staff, and procurement, and 
community investment. These companies have agreed to work with 
us, not because diversity is a feel good value, rather, they 
understand that diversity is a business imperative.
    Companies that have figured this out produce or distribute 
compelling content that shows the breadth and beauty of our 
great country. It is fair to ask the question: Why does 
diversity matter--media diversity?
    I had an uncomfortable conversation recently with someone 
who felt that diversity on the Presidential debate stage, for 
example, was nothing more than an interior decorating problem. 
This statement ignores the history of our country. The 
composition of our media industry is every bit important as the 
diversity of this subcommittee, and Congress, and the 
candidates who compete for the highest office in the land. In a 
real sense, the media industry is built upon airwaves that 
belong to the American people. These licensees matter because 
they determine the content we see on the big screen and, 
increasingly, on the little screen.
    By 2045, more than half of our nation's population will be 
people of color. There is no meaningful--if there is no 
meaningful opportunity for women and people of color to be 
employed in this industry or own the means of production; we 
will see a distorted image of ourselves. Even more, we risk 
losing the competitive edge that has made us the world's leader 
in film and television industry and arts.
    I thank you for the opportunity to present and look forward 
to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Mr. Odom follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]      
    
    Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Mr. Odom.
    Ms. Sandoval, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

             STATEMENT OF CATHERINE J. K. SANDOVAL

    Ms. Sandoval. Good morning, everyone. My name is Catherine 
Sandoval and I thank the members of the Communications and 
Technology Committee of the House Energy and Commerce Committee 
and also, particularly thank Chairman Doyle, Ranking Member 
Latta, Mr. Pallone, and also full Ranking Member Walden for 
convening this really historic hearing on lifting voices and 
legislation to promote media marketplace diversity.
    I am honored to speak to you today as a law professor at 
Santa Clara University in California's Silicon Valley, who 
teaches communications, energy, contract, and antitrust law, 
and conducts research on media ownership diversity.
    I am a Latina from a trailer park in East Los Angeles, who 
is also a former broadcaster, and served as the vice president 
and general counsel of Z-Spanish Media Corporation, which 
merged with Entravision Corporation. I was the director of the 
FCC's Office of Communications Business Opportunities when the 
tax certificate was still in effect and researched the 
aftermath of its repeal.
    As a former commissioner of the California Public Utilities 
Commission, I can attest to the importance of broadcasting to 
public service and to public safety.
    I commend this committee's consideration of H.R. 3957, 
which would adopt a 21st-century Tax Certificate Program to 
create incentives for broadcast transactions with a diverse 
range of American entrepreneurs.
    H.R. 5567 would support the FCC's analysis of market entry 
barriers and diversity and spur improvements in data collection 
and availability.
    The reaffirmation of Congress' commitment to media 
diversity and to developing collaborative efforts to reduce 
barriers to diverse media ownership, as articulated in H.R. 
549, will support America's economy and enhance our democratic 
dialogue.
    And transparency about broadcasting cable employment 
opportunities spurred by H.R. 5564 reflects both good public 
and corporate governance.
    The DC Circuit in TV9 versus FCC in 1974 emphasized that it 
is upon ownership that public policy places primary 
responsibility with respect to diversification of content and 
that it is historically proven to be significantly influential 
with respect to editorial comment and the presentation of news, 
as Congress member Walden mentioned. Owners decide whom to 
employ and whether people like me get a chance to serve the 
public interest through working in a broadcast business.
    The Tax Certificate Program created the opportunity for 
minority entrepreneurs like my former boss, Amador Bustos, to 
acquire his first broadcast license. The company I work for, Z-
Spanish Media, grew to own and operate 36 radio stations, 
broadcasting in several languages in Texas, Florida, Illinois, 
California, and other States. Z-Spanish merged with 
Entravision, run by Walter Ulloa, who continues to broadcast in 
Spanish and English.
    The Tax Certificate Program spurred the creation of 
businesses that enhanced program diversity and employed a 
diverse staff. When Congress eliminated the tax certificate for 
FCC license transactions in 1995, sellers turned to other 
means, such as 1031 exchanges, installment sales, or trust 
transactions, to defer capital gains.
    The research project I helped to design at the FCC, the Ivy 
Group Study: Whose Spectrum is it Anyway? reported that once 
the Tax Certificate Program was canceled, sellers, brokers, and 
financiers stopped returning the calls of many minority brokers 
and female--minority and female broadcasters and entrepreneurs. 
Access to deals constricted as sellers looked elsewhere for tax 
deferral and buyers they already knew.
    My book chapter on minority commercial radio ownership, 
published in this book in 2011, reviewed over 11,000 FCC 
records and found that most of the minority radio licensees in 
the mid-2009 had entered the market and acquired their first 
license before the enactment of the Telecommunications Act of 
1996. The market entry of many of those broadcasters can be 
traced to the tax certificate. And only Congress can authorize 
a 21st-century tax certificate, as the FCC continues to work on 
other important issues.
    Last, I would like to emphasize that broadcasting is 
critical for millions of Americans who rely on it daily for 
public--for news and public affairs information, and especially 
critical during times of emergencies. When PG&E's Web site 
crashed during the power outages initiated in October of 2019, 
when fire danger was high, broadcast radio and television was 
the key resource about school and job closures, and which 
communities would lose or maintain power.
    Broadcast and broadband are synergistic communications 
media. America's public safety, economy, and democracy benefit 
from a robust and diverse broadcast sector.
    I thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today and 
commend your initiatives to spur media ownership diversity and 
to enhance service to the American public. Thank you.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Sandoval follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]      
    
    Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Ms. Sandoval.
    Ms. Coley, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF MAURITA COLEY

    Ms. Coley. Thank you. Good morning, Chairman----
    Mr. Doyle. Your microphone. There you go.
    Ms. Coley. Thank you.
    Good morning Chairman Pallone and Doyle, Ranking Members 
Walden and Latta, and distinguished members of the 
subcommittee. My name is Maurita Coley and I am president and 
CEO of Multicultural Media, Telecom and Internet Council, 
affectionately known in FCC circles as MMTC. We sincerely 
appreciate this opportunity to provide our views on ownership 
and employment diversity in the media marketplace.
    My written testimony and numerous attachments are on 
record. So for my 5 minutes, I just really would like to focus 
on two points.
    Number one, as you have heard today already, there is an 
embarrassingly low number of minority- and women-owned 
broadcast stations. As you will continue to hear from the panel 
today, the primary reasons for this are access to capital. This 
FCC Tax Certificate is actually a currency. It is used by 
minority prospective owners--it was used when it was in effect 
to enter an elite club of owners, who really would not have 
paid attention to these prospective owners, had they not borne 
the tax certificate. So it is as good as gold.
    It is also a very modest tool. It is an elegant tool and it 
enables the minority prospective owner to come to the table by 
offering the seller the benefit of capital gains tax deferment. 
So we completely support Congressman Butterfield's bill to 
bring the tax certificate back.
    I also note for the record that the tax certificate policy, 
while it was repealed in 1997, there was legislation introduced 
by Senators McCain and Menendez, and Congressmen Rush and 
Rangel would have not only brought the tax certificate back but 
extended it to cable and telecommunications, as it had been in 
the past. And I would just like to note that for the record and 
let the committee know that we are very supportive of that.
    Second, on the issue of equal employment opportunity, we 
fully support the bills introduced by Congressmembers Clarke 
and Long and the resolution by Council--Congressmember--I am 
sorry--Demings. You can't make policy without data. So the FCC 
should be tasked with collecting data and enforcing the laws 
that have been neglected for almost the past 20 years.
    In general, as Congressmember Butterfield has already 
mentioned, the historical roots of discrimination in 
broadcasting actually started decades ago, when the FCC itself 
discriminated in the very issuances of licenses. We have never 
recovered, but that is not an excuse not to try now.
    For a historical perspective on the FCC's past, that 
discriminatory issuance of broadcasting, such as refusing to 
grant licenses to racial and religious minorities or to 
historically black and other minorities serving colleges and 
universities, I direct you to a 2018 article in the Southern 
Journal of Policy and Justice written by our cofounder, David 
Honig. It is called How the FCC Suppressed Minority Broadcast 
Ownership and How the FCC can Undo the Damage it Caused.
    I would be remiss to sit here and not mention a positive 
note. FCC Chairman Pai's administration has taken several 
encouraging steps in the right direction. First, he re-
chartered the FCC Diversity Committee, on which several of us 
on this panel serve, and more importantly, he moved the FCC's 
EEO Division to the Enforcement Bureau, responding positively 
to suggestions made by MMTC and 38 organizations that signed on 
to our comments.
    And now, a little bit about MMTC. For those who don't know, 
we have practiced in this area. We are in our 34th year. Our 
mission is to promote ownership and employment diversity. We 
have a brokerage where we have helped to actually connect 
minority- and women-owned buyers. And I would not--I would be 
remiss if I didn't talk about a couple of stories here.
    So our first story is radio pioneer--Radio One pioneer 
Cathy Hughes. Some people know the story. She was rejected by 
over 30 banks before she finally was able to enter the 
broadcast market. She and her son, Alfred Liggins, used a tax 
certificate to purchase three of their earliest radio stations. 
Today, they are Urban One. They own 54 radio stations serving 
15 million listeners.
    Our second story is our Board Member Raul Alarcon, who used 
a tax certificate, and pledged all of his family's assets to 
purchase WSKU- AM in New York. And today, Spanish Broadcasting 
System has a portfolio of 17 radio stations in major markets.
    These stories, I would love for the committee to interview 
these stories themselves, so you can get it firsthand. And as I 
said, MMTC enthusiastically supports the bills and the 
resolutions today.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Coley follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]          
    
    Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Ms. Coley.
    Ms. Sutter, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.

                   STATEMENT OF DIANE SUTTER

    Ms. Sutter. Good morning, Chairman Pallone and Doyle, 
Ranking Members Walden and Latta, and members of the 
Subcommittee.
    My name is Diane Sutter, and I am the president and CEO of 
ShootingStar Broadcasting. I am testifying today on behalf of 
the National Association of Broadcasters and the thousands of 
local radio and television stations across your hometowns.
    Broadcasters provide the important information, news, and 
entertainment that connect and reflect the diverse communities 
we serve, including women and communities of color. In today's 
media marketplace, localism and ensuring that our programming 
reflects the communities we serve is not only in the public 
interest; it is good business.
    My career in broadcasting started at a radio station in 
Pittsburgh. I rose from newsroom producer to sales, then sales 
manager--the first woman to hold that position in the market--
station manager, and ultimately, general manager of Shamrock 
Broadcasting's AM/FM combination there.
    At the time, I was the first female general manager in the 
Pittsburgh market, my hometown. Later, I became the first 
female television general manager in Lexington, Kentucky. And 
later, I was able to rise through the ranks of the corporate 
offices of Shamrock television, where I became president--the 
first woman in that role--and the first to be responsible for 
the purchasing and selling of broadcast properties, as well as 
their overall operations.
    My time as a broadcast executive taught me a lot but it was 
nowhere near what I needed to know in order to navigate the 
challenges of buying a station or brokering a broadcast deal on 
my own. It was at Shamrock where I gained hands-on experience 
in broadcast acquisitions and sales, including due diligence, 
working with a company to acquire bank financing, setting up a 
capital structure, making the bank presentations, and going 
through the FCC process, and then the eventual station 
transition.
    It was the culmination of those experiences and 
relationships that were essential to help me put my first deal 
together. Without them, it is highly unlikely that I would ever 
have been able to become a station owner. That is why, after I 
acquired my first television station, a CBS in Abilene, Texas, 
I partnered with the NAB Leadership Foundation to create the 
Broadcast Leadership Training Program, or BLT, as we 
affectionately call it. I wanted to share what I had learned 
with other women and people of color, who I saw facing similar 
challenges that I had faced and who, frankly, face many of 
those same challenges today.
    BLT is a 10-month executive MBA-style program intended to 
help talented senior level broadcasters who aspire to advance 
as group executives or station owners, particularly women and 
people of color. It allows them to be exposed to the 
fundamentals of purchasing, owning, and running a successful 
broadcast operation.
    The BLT program, supported by broadcasters for 
broadcasters, is celebrating its 20th anniversary this year. 
And of the 325 graduates, over 65 percent have been promoted 
one or more times and 55 have been or are currently station 
owners.
    BLT success stories include people like Carolyn Becker of 
Riverfront Broadcasting, who came into the program managing two 
radio stations and now owns 18 small market stations.
    DuJuan McCoy of Circle City Broadcasting, another alum, 
bought his first seven broadcast stations while still in the 
class. He went on to sell those stations, buy new ones in 
larger media markets, and today owns the CW affiliate in 
Indianapolis.
    Orlando Rosales and his partner, Mayela Rojas of Media 
Vista Group, were both BLT graduates and started with one 
Spanish-language Azteca television station in Fort Myers/
Naples, Florida. With the help of BLT faculty and myself, we 
worked for three years to get them the financing of three 
Univision stations in Florida, Minnesota, and Missouri that 
they have purchased.
    These are only a few examples but I can assure you there 
are many more. And as a woman who rose through the ranks of 
industry to become a CEO and owner/operator, I not only share 
your interest in increasing diversity across all media but 
consider it a cornerstone of my career.
    To that end, there are actions that Congress can take to 
help incentivize sales to broadcast entrants. First, Congress 
can promote media diversity by passing Representative 
Butterfield's Expanded Broadcast Ownership Opportunities Act, 
that legislation to reinstate the tax certificate. From 1978 to 
1995, the program was highly effective in leveling the playing 
field for underrepresented broadcasters, increasing minority 
ownership in broadcast stations by more than 550 percent.
    Second, Congress should examine whether modifications can 
be made to SBA loan guarantees that better reflect the 
realities and unique challenges of financing broadcast 
properties.
    I look forward to your questions.
    [The prepared statement of Ms. Sutter follows:]
    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]      
    
    Mr. Doyle. Thank you, Ms. Sutter.
    So we have concluded our openings. We are going to now move 
to member questions. Each Member will have 5 minutes to ask 
questions of our witnesses. I will start by recognizing myself 
for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Odom, in your written testimony, you mentioned that the 
number of stations owned by people of color may be at risk of 
falling even lower than the incredibly low levels that exist 
right now.
    Can you explain why you think this risk exists and do you 
see the same risks for women-owned media outlets also?
    Mr. Odom. Thank you for the question, Mr. Chairman.
    We have been in contact with African American licensees who 
have raised this issue. The ownership structure that some of 
the African American broadcasters enjoy doesn't just turn on 
vagaries of how long the license lasts. They also turn on 
things like how long does their financing last. How long do 
their joint arrangements or sidecar arrangements with 
television stations or ownership groups last?
    And although the numbers that I have sketched out for you 
are poor, at least in the television space, they are at 14 
African American-owned television stations; some of those you 
know are absolutely at risk of ending because--not because of 
the license term ending, but because some of the arrangements, 
financing arrangements, and sidecar arrangements could be at 
risk.
    Mr. Doyle. I see.
    Ms. Sutter, you had your first deal to buy a station. Tell 
me how--you know discuss like some of the challenges that you 
faced to acquire that station, the financing part of it, and 
how Mr. Butterfield's legislation--were you able to use that 
program when you bought your station? But tell us how you think 
this bill will help someone trying to acquire their first 
television station.
    Is your microphone on?
    Ms. Sutter. I was not able to use the tax certificate 
because, at the time, the tax certificate only related to 
people of color and minorities. Women were not included in the 
original tax certificate.
    Mr. Doyle. I see.
    Ms. Sutter. But I would have liked it if they were.
    The challenges for me were that access to capital clearly 
is--was then and is now the major deterrent to being able to 
get a deal done.
    I was very lucky that I was able to get a deal 
accomplished. That was because of two reasons. One, I had 
access to the information that you need before I ever had to go 
and buy a station. I had been a general manager for radio and 
TV for over ten years had never had that kind of information 
provided. I learned it at Shamrock when I was doing 
acquisitions for them.
    The second thing was access to capital. While it is 
definitely a problem, I had the ability to go to the banks that 
were in the Shamrock credit, people I already knew and who knew 
me and that allowed them to be willing to at least hear me, to 
at least hear me out. And so, because I already had those 
relationships, I was able to get a first deal done. And it 
didn't help that as president of Shamrock, my duty was to sell 
off their television stations and I bought their last one.
    So those made it a very unique situation, but I realized 
that that meant that there were others that needed to be able 
to have that same advantage. They weren't going to be having 
the advantage I had of being at the corporate offices for 
Shamrock and head of their television.
    So the BLT program was created to address those two 
particular things and the NAB has, for 20 years, supported it, 
as have other broadcasters. This is a program where the women 
and people of color are fully supported financially by the 
broadcasters. It is about a $17,500 investment in each graduate 
to be able to learn those things that they need.
    The faculty for the program comes from the ranks of the 
people who are in the industry you would need to know. It is 
the bankers. It is the brokers. It is the group heads. It is 
the members of the FCC that come and teach the faculty aspects 
of the program. So that is how we managed to get it to happen.
    Mr. Doyle. I see.
    Ms. Coley, maybe you could discuss how you see Mr. 
Butterfield's legislation closing that financing gap.
    Ms. Coley. Well, as I mentioned earlier, the tax 
certificate is synonymous with access to capital. When I spoke 
with Raul Alarcon, and actually in my legal career, I 
represented Radio One and TV One, so I knew that the tax 
certificate was used like currency because when they 
encountered a deal that they wanted to buy, more than likely, 
the seller was not even going to give them a chance. That is 
what they communicated to me. But when they were able to offer 
the possibility of a tax certificate, that was something that 
distinguished them from the crowd of buyers and it gave them a 
leg up and helped them. So it is like currency. It goes--they 
still have to pay. They still have to pledge you know 
everything, but their first and last-born children but the tax 
certificate helped make the difference.
    Mr. Doyle. Thank you. I see my time is expiring.
    The Chair is now going to yield to our ranking member of 
the full committee, Mr. Walden.
    Mr. Walden. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I want to thank 
Mr. Latta for yielding to me, as well, in the timeline here. 
And so I appreciate all the combined wisdom at the table. We 
need your input on this. We appreciate what you are doing out 
there and, certainly, the role of BLT and other programs like 
that have made a real difference.
    And I think, Ms. Sutter, up until '95, as we have talked, 
there was this Tax Certificate Program in place and we are 
examining the legislation today to reinstate it.
    How would you change it?
    Ms. Sutter. Well, the first thing I would do is make sure 
that it also included women----
    Mr. Walden. Yes.
    Ms. Sutter [continuing]. And the proposal does that. So I 
think that is an important addition from what it was.
    Mr. Walden. I just thought I would give you a chance to say 
that twice.
    Ms. Sutter. Yes, sir. I also had the privilege of 
testifying before the committee when they did away with the tax 
certificate. So I am hoping that my appearance today will 
suggest that----
    Mr. Walden. Full circle.
    Ms. Sutter [continuing]. It is time for--full circle. Yes, 
sir. Yes, sir.
    The tax certificate itself, as Maurita said, is something 
that benefits both the buyer and the seller and I think that is 
what makes it unique. And I would want to ensure that we kept 
those things, those pieces of it that made it so successful 
because, otherwise, not only access to deal financing but deal 
flow. It allows minorities and women of color to be involved in 
getting the call from the seller that they are actually going 
to give you an opportunity to bid. Many times we don't even get 
into the deal flow.
    Mr. Walden. Interesting. Interesting. That is an important 
note.
    I was thinking, too, as I listened to you, how much of this 
is a sort of license issue, broadcast issue, whatever, and how 
much of it is a banking issue?
    Ms. Sutter. I think it is a combination of both. I think--
--
    Mr. Walden. You really haven't addressed the banking piece. 
I mean, I think about you going into a lender and they are 
going, I don't know. Is that the lender issue? Because you know 
how to run a business; you have proven that.
    Ms. Sutter. Yes, but ownership is different because, in 
essence, someone else is investing in you.
    Mr. Walden. Yes, right.
    Ms. Sutter. And so as a result, they need to know more than 
you are just a good person and a good operator. They need to 
know that you are capable financially of being able to uphold 
your commitments.
    Mr. Walden. Yes.
    Ms. Sutter. So when someone else invests in you, it is 
incumbent upon you to be able to demonstrate that their risk 
matches the reward.
    Mr. Walden. Sure. And then in terms of collateral, can you 
speak to those issues as well?
    Ms. Sutter. Yes, one of the challenges and what makes 
broadcasting unique is that probably our most valuable asset is 
our license and that is not permitted to be used as 
collateral----
    Mr. Walden. Right.
    Ms. Sutter [continuing]. In any kind of a financial way.
    So many of the banks look to broadcast, whose value is not 
in equipment or in bricks and mortar. It is in the value of the 
goodwill and that is not something that a bank can attach as 
collateral.
    Mr. Walden. Which I think makes the industry very unique in 
that respect.
    Are there other witnesses who want to speak to that part of 
this equation?
    Ms. Sandoval. Thank you very much, Congressmember Walden.
    One thing I would like to emphasize is that the tax 
certificate is absolutely critical to access to deals. Right? 
It provided not just access to capital but access to deals. And 
this is particularly important because, under the 
Communications Act Section 310(d), the FCC cannot consider 
whether a different party in an application to transfer a 
license would better serve the public interests. So what the 
tax certificate did is that it----
    Mr. Walden. Right.
    Ms. Sandoval [continuing]. Created private sector 
incentives to actually do deals with minority buyers and 
eligible buyers, who would then apply, together with the 
seller, to the FCC for a license transfer applications.
    So these incentives were really important because, 
especially under the tax code as it existed then, and there 
still are incentives in the tax code now to do other deals, 
where you could have done a 1031 exchange, or do other things 
to try to defer capital gains, or do a trust. And so the tax 
certificate gave an incentive to do something different----
    Mr. Walden. Got it.
    Ms. Sandoval [continuing]. And partner with people whom you 
wouldn't have partnered with before.
    And I would also like to underscore and thank MMTC for 
their brokerage. When I worked for Z-Spanish Media, in fact Z-
Spanish acquired some stations through David Honig, as a 
broker, who put buyers and sellers together. And as I 
mentioned, our station owner got his first deal through the tax 
certificate, which though he had a Ph.D. from U.C. Berkeley, 
though he had been a broadcaster, it was the tax certificate 
that created the access to the deal.
    Mr. Walden. All right. All right, very good.
    Mr. Odom, real quick.
    Mr. Odom. Yes, sir. This Tax Certificate Program is just 
the latest in a very long line of bipartisan tax policies that 
have been pursued by the Congress to achieve results that--
where the markets create sometimes impenetrable barriers; 
whether it be the New Markets tax credit or the most recent 
Opportunity Zone tax credit that was passed at the end of 2017, 
these are the ways of enacting social good through the tax 
policy using market-based incentives.
    Mr. Walden. All right, thank you.
    I would just conclude by saying when we bought our stations 
from my parents, I will always remember being with my wife--we 
were working on Capitol Hill than in the law firm downtown, 
when my father said, oh, by the way, it was the worst February 
we ever had, and the exciter just burned out on the FM; you are 
going to need to replace that. It was like, what am I getting 
into here, Dad?
    Anyway, thank you. Thanks for having this hearing.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair now recognizes Mr. McNerney for 5 minutes.
    Mr. McNerney. I thank the chairman and I thank the 
witnesses for your testimony this morning.
    Professor Sandoval, my district includes part of Contra 
Costa, San Joaquin, and Sacramento Counties. As a former 
California PUC Commissioner, I am sure you are familiar with 
that area. It has a very diverse population and it was severely 
impacted by the recent wildfires in California.
    For example, during the Kincade fire, a small fire erupted 
that resulted in the City of Oakley residents having to be 
evacuated. Eighty-eight cell towers went down in Contra Costa 
County, and a highly dangerous air quality filled the area. So 
if we don't do more to increase minority ownership of 
broadcasting stations, what would it mean during times of 
crisis for constituents in districts like mine where the real 
risks of being impacted by wildfires and other national 
disasters?
    Ms. Sandoval. Yes, thank you very much. And thank you for 
your service to the community and California Congressmember 
McNerney.
    I would like to underscore what you were saying about the 
important role of broadcasting during disasters. And sadly, we 
have had our share in California. And what was absolutely 
critical was that during the large-scale power shutoffs that 
happened during the high winds and wildfire danger, very 
quickly PG&E's Web site crashed. And so people were not able to 
get information about where to go, which was really critical, 
especially for people who needed to keep their diabetes 
medication refrigerated, use equipment on the medical baseline, 
how to figure out if their job was closed, if their school was 
closed, and pick up their kids, or where it created a real 
crisis because people couldn't work for days and lost income.
    But PG&E was actually able to fax out a list to the 
broadcast stations of the cities that were going to lose power. 
And so people depended--millions of people depended on 
broadcast radio and television for information about where 
power was out, where power was available, and what the closures 
were.
    And as you mentioned with the evacuations and the fires, in 
Sonoma County, you also had 200,000 evacuated during the 
Kincade fire; radio was absolutely critical when, particularly 
as you mentioned, sadly, cell phone towers went down, whether 
it was due to a lack of power or the California legislature 
just held a hearing on this topic, where they identified both a 
lack of power, as well as issues with lack of redundant 
networks, and, in some cases, lack of maintenance contributing 
to outages.
    So while day-to-day many of us do rely very heavily on cell 
phones and the internet, broadcasting really showed itself 
truly to be a lifeline and broadcasting that addresses the 
needs of diverse communities is particularly important, 
especially during those types of crises.
    Mr. McNerney. OK, thank you.
    The digital divide is a real challenge facing my district. 
In your testimony, you note that, for those living on the other 
side of the digital divide, radio and television broadcasting 
remain daily mainstays. If we don't do more to increase 
minority ownership of broadcasting stations, what would it mean 
for the individuals living on that side of the digital divide?
    Ms. Sandoval. Yes, and thank you for bringing that up. And 
as you know, the digital divide is something that pervades not 
only rural America, and 95 percent of California's landmass is 
rural, and so we have many rural communities as well as other 
states in the nation, but also in urban areas, like San Jose, 
there is a major area where there is a huge digital divide gap, 
where they have mapped it. It is a predominantly Latino 
community, where a lot of the residents have not used the 
internet for the last month, and it is also a flood zone. And, 
in fact, it is the flood zone for the reservoir and experienced 
having flooding with the rains in 2017.
    So it is absolutely critical that we work simultaneously to 
close the digital divide and to ensure that we also harness 
broadcasting. Because one of the things that happened in 
Paradise, California, the campfire, was that for a variety of 
reasons, the county didn't activate broadcast alerts. And so 
particularly with also a lot of elderly people depend on 
broadcast and didn't have the cell phone access, didn't use the 
internet, and didn't get the message. And this is part of what 
contributed to 85 people dying in that fire and to just the 
breadth of that terrible fire which destroyed Paradise, 
literally.
    So I think addressing both of these things is really 
critical to the safety, as well as to the economy of our 
nation.
    Mr. McNerney. OK, you will have to answer this briefly, or 
the chairman will give a little sound here.
    Can the FCC and Congress solve the diversity and problems 
laid out in today's--today with race and gender-neutral 
remedies?
    Ms. Sandoval. So the FCC has been trying race and gender-
neutral remedies for the last 25 years, since Adarand. And 
after Lamprecht, they basically dropped all of the programs. So 
there was an opportunity 25 years ago to do an Adarand study. 
We did four different studies, when I was the director of the 
Office of Communications Business Opportunities that laid the 
foundation for the Adarand studies but the FCC has never done 
the full studies that are necessary.
    So we have had a 25-year experience with race and gender-
neutral policy and what we have seen is with basically the 
people who have been in the best position to grow were people 
who had entered previously and also, some of the graduates of 
some of these particular programs. But race and gender-neutral 
policies have not produced the kind of results that the 
policies before 1995 produced.
    Mr. McNerney. Thank you.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman's time has expired.
    The Chair now recognizes Mr. Latta for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Latta. Well thanks, Mr. Chairman and thanks to our 
panel for your great testimony today.
    I want to applaud Chairman Pai's focus on working to 
promote diversity and, in particular, the Incubator pilot 
program that the Commission adopted, which is, unfortunately, 
held up by the courts.
    And today's testimony also discusses the great programs and 
initiatives that the broadcast industry has voluntarily 
implemented, including the Broadcast Leadership Training 
Program. These programs aim to facilitate diversity in the 
media marketplace by providing opportunities for people to 
enter the broadcast industry and rise to the executive 
leadership positions.
    Ms. Sutter, if I could start my questions with you, what 
role can Congress play in shaping an incubator program, similar 
to the one proposed to Chairman Pai, that would apply to both 
TV and radio?
    Ms. Sutter. Thank you very much.
    The FCC Diversity Committee, of which I chaired, and also 
two members of the testimony committee here are a part of--
thank you, Clint and Maurita for your service--work very hard 
to create the incubator program. And the FCC supported the 
recommendations that were made from the Diversity Committee and 
implemented the Incubator Program.
    We would suggest that you are constrained by those same 
things that the FCC is, and we would encourage this committee 
to consider adding the Incubator Program to your consideration 
of things that can improve diversity in the industry, and we 
would also ask that you include television. So I appreciate 
your suggestion in that regard because the Incubator Program, 
as it was put forward, was only for radio.
    I have graduates of the BLT program right now in television 
that are looking to acquire television stations and the 
Incubator Program, which was a way for stations to be able to 
provide station ownership opportunities to those that could be 
taking a year to work with them to be able to learn how to 
manage and own stations, and then they would have the 
opportunity to buy those stations. So I think that is another 
vehicle for that and would hope that Congress could do 
something to codify that along with the tax certificate.
    The two of those things together make a pretty poignant 
opportunity.
    Mr. Latta. Well, let me follow up with another question to 
you because I know that, hearing your discussion in regard to 
the access of capital out there, let me go with another 
question on that area.
    When you discuss your learning experiences as you advanced 
in the broadcast industry, from buying your first station to 
helping entrants secure their first deals, do you believe it is 
difficult to know when a broadcast property is on the market 
due to a lack of transparency of those transactions?
    Ms. Sutter. Yes, sir. I referenced the idea that access to 
deal flow is as important as access to capital.
    One of the things that the tax certificate did was to 
incentivize sellers to look for a potential person of color or, 
hopefully now, a woman to be a buyer. They do not have that 
incentive at this time. And so that provides clear reasons to 
seek out women and people of color as potential buyers. And we 
have many qualified individuals who, both in and out of the BLT 
program, are able to do that. And so I think that is an 
excellent way for that to happen.
    Mr. Latta. Let me ask what role should Congress have, then?
    Ms. Sutter. Well, I would hope that Congress would add the 
Incubator Program as a consideration to the legislation that 
you are already putting forward.
    Mr. Latta. OK, thank you.
    In my last minute and 17 seconds, I am not picking on you 
here; we have heard that some statistics show that employment 
diversity among broadcasters remains better than their over-to-
top streaming competitors in the tech industry. How much of 
that do you believe is because of the FCC regulations versus 
practical interests of broadcaster-produced content that 
reflects the interests of the communities they serve?
    Ms. Sutter. I think there is no question that the 
difference between some of the other companies and 
organizations that you reference in broadcasters is that we are 
local, and that we are about being in our communities, and 
knowing how to create programs that serve those communities 
because one size does not fit all. And our ability to be able 
to do those things in individual markets that respect those 
markets is what separates us.
    Mr. Latta. OK. Well, thank you very much.
    Mr. Chairman, I am going to yield back the balance of my 
time.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair recognizes Mr. Soto for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Soto. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    I have the honor of representing a very diverse area in 
central Florida of high growth and this continues to be a big 
issue.
    I noticed the FCC is releasing new FM station applications, 
but they haven't really released a lot of new television 
station applications over the years. So my first question is: 
Would these bills help with this new tranche of FM stations 
coming out to increase minority and women's business ownership? 
And would we need to open up more new TV stations to help also 
give more access, since it is tough to buy one compared to 
creating one?
    And I will start with you, Mr. Odom, and we will go down 
the line.
    Mr. Odom. This isn't an issue that we have expressed an 
opinion on, but I think if you look at the simple matter of 
law--laws of demand and supply, we have had a constriction of 
the supply of television stations. I imagine some of that is 
owing to the fact that we have had some of that spectrum ceded 
to the commercial wireless space.
    So I think it would be great to create new market areas, 
and new licenses. I just don't know how realistic that is and 
we have not, as an organization, looked at that particular 
issue.
    Mr. Soto. Ms. Sandoval?
    Ms. Sandoval. Yes, thank you very much, Congressmember.
    I applaud the FCC for taking the initiative to look at 
spectrum allocation and how they can create opportunities for 
more stations, such as FM stations.
    I agree that the television band has been constrained, even 
though we have had the auction of digital television.
    I would note that the FCC has a duty under 309(j) of the 
Communications Act to create incentives for small, minority-, 
and women-owned businesses in the communications industry, 
including through the auction of licenses.
    So things like the tax certificate really affect the 
secondary market, but I believe that H.R. 5567 would also help 
to support the FCC's analysis of market entry barriers, which 
is another thing that is required by the Communications Act in 
Section 254. So I believe that these bills would be 
complimentary but, as mentioned, the FCC has a lot of work to 
do, and I think that this would be synergistic with looking at 
where there have been new licensing opportunities.
    Last, I would like to add that when I looked at my 
research, pulling over 11,000 records to analyze the status of 
minority broadcasts, that sometimes when the FCC had done 
things, like they expanded band or the 8090 dockets, where they 
expanded stations, that was a really critical entry point.
    So I think this is going to be a critical entry point of 
opportunity; we need to make sure that the policies are there 
to really value and create the rules that promote diverse media 
ownership and service to the public.
    Mr. Soto. Ms. Coley?
    Ms. Coley. We, MMTC, haven't spoken on this issue as well. 
However, I believe that anytime there is an opportunity where 
there are new opportunities to--like the 8090 docket was one of 
the ones where it just opened up a lot of new licenses. So the 
tax certificate wouldn't necessarily work in that respect, but 
I think that what Congress could do is to act as--to have 
something that encourages financing, that encourages diversity 
with respect to the new allotment. The tax certificate, you 
know, wouldn't really be the way.
    Mr. Soto. Sure.
    Ms. Sutter?
    Ms. Sutter. To speak to your question more specifically; 
the FM--the entrance of new FM stations for an auction would 
certainly be welcomed.
    I referenced in my testimony Caroline Becker and two of her 
18 stations she acquired in the FM auction, and they built 
those stations.
    The problem with television allocations right now is 
because we are repacking the entire table of allocation for 
television; as we go through the conversion process and 
redistribute all of the TV stations, it is frozen at the 
moment. I believe that once, in fact, that gets--that gets 
fully exercised and all of the repacking is done, that we would 
hope that the Commission would go back and find more television 
licenses to put for auction.
    Ms. Coley. And Mr. Soto, if I may?
    Mr. Soto. Sure, please.
    Ms. Coley. At MMTC, it has been mentioned, we work with 
everyone, in terms of we have a nonprofit brokerage where we 
aggressively seek out minority- and women-owned prospective 
buyers. And so, in that context of our brokerage, I think that 
if there were new allotment, that would be a great opportunity 
for us to use our services to try to find minority and women 
owners.
    Mr. Soto. Thank you all for your response.
    My time has expired.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman yields back.
    The Chair now recognizes my good friend, Mr. Bilirakis, for 
5 minutes.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate it 
very much.
    I want to focus on another subject that hasn't been brought 
up, but first, I would like to tell you that Sheila Johnson, 
who is the founder of the BET, lives in my district part-time. 
She is a wonderful, wonderful person.
    Ms. Coley. Oh, wonderful.
    Mr. Bilirakis. She is a trailblazer and she was born in 
McKeesport, Pennsylvania. Did you know that?
    Ms. Sutter. All good things come from western Pennsylvania.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Another fellow Pittsburgher, absolutely. 
Yes, particularly in western Pennsylvania.
    Ms. Sutter. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Bilirakis. But I represent the Tampa Bay area and I am 
very proud of that.
    Ms. Sutter. We like that, too.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Yes, absolutely.
    So, in any case, this--an issue with regard to veterans. In 
many circumstances, veterans are deemed part of a class for 
distinctive treatment. For example, the Small Business 
Administration has a Set-Aside Program for service-disabled 
veterans who own small business, to allow these businesses to 
adequately compete for certain government contracts.
    Many federal agencies have similar programs for both 
veteran-owned businesses and service-disabled veteran-owned 
businesses, in addition to programs for sex- and race-based 
diversity.
    Ms. Sutter--Mrs. Sutter, what actions are the broadcasting 
industry taking to promote and incorporate veterans, and 
particularly veterans with service-connected disabilities, into 
the marketplace?
    Ms. Sutter. Thank you for your question.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Sure.
    Ms. Sutter. The Broadcast Education Foundation, the 
Leadership Foundation of the NAB, has a number of initiatives 
that they do to work with veterans. They have partnered with 
Veterans Strong and, at their national convention, they hold a 
military veterans outreach breakfast every year at the national 
convention and it is for H.R. directors from company broadcast 
companies from all around the country. And there are speakers 
and panelists to talk about how to recruit veterans, how to 
reach them, and then once they are in the workforce, how to 
work with them to help them succeed.
    In addition, they also host--co-host a career fair with the 
Broadcast Education Association to specifically address 
veterans and encourage them to participate in the fair and then 
help them move on in that regard into the broadcasting 
industry.
    But I think one of the greatest examples is that most of 
the broadcast companies out there are interested in reaching 
veterans. As you all probably know, our Congressional PSA 
Program that the NAB does, veterans, is one of the main topics 
that are available for Members of Congress to use.
    But to give you a specific example, Hearst Broadcasting 
actually has a director of military recruitment and that is a 
military veteran in that role, and the job of that veteran is 
to go to bases specifically for the purpose of recruiting 
veterans to come into the broadcast industry.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Has there been a great deal of interest on--
--
    Ms. Sutter. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Good. Very good, on the part--I would think 
so.
    Ms. Sutter. And the--well, the CEO of Hearst Television, is 
a BLT grad. So----
    Mr. Bilirakis. Oh, OK.
    Ms. Sutter [continuing]. Suffice it to say, he understands 
that importance.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Excellent. Excellent.
    What can Congress and the FCC do, as far as promoting 
veteran-owned small businesses?
    Ms. Sutter. Well, I think the program that you mentioned at 
the SBA is certainly one because we, as broadcasters, also work 
with the 7(a) Program and it is an adjunct to that. So 
continuing to work on that program, I think, is helpful and 
certainly, we, as broadcasters, want to continue to make sure 
our doors are open to veterans to be part of our industry.
    Mr. Bilirakis. Very good.
    Would anyone else like to add anything on that particular 
subject? Yes.
    Ms. Sandoval. Thank you, Congressmember, for this question.
    I would note that, when I was a commissioner of the 
California Public Utilities Commission, that we had a program 
also specifically authorized by the California legislature that 
promoted opportunities for a variety of diverse businesses to 
be able to do business with the regulated utilities in 
California, electric, gas, water, and telecommunications, and 
that veterans, and especially service-disabled veterans, as 
well as women, and gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender 
people were specifically included in that program.
    We found with a lot of utilities for--there is a huge 
interest in veterans who have that experience with both the 
working in a high-safety environment, a high-risk environment 
like you get with the natural gas, and working with things like 
climbing towers, which is also important for broadcasting. And 
so I think promoting this would be important but, right now, 
this is something that the FCC hasn't been charged with.
    And so I think in looking at the legislation, this would be 
another example that the FCC cannot, on its own, reinstitute 
the tax certificate because Congress ended it. But Congress 
could reinstitute the tax certificate and include groups such 
as service-disabled veterans, as well as minorities and women.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Bilirakis. All right. Very good. I yield back.
    Mr. Doyle. The Chair recognizes Mr. Veasey for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Veasey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really want to thank 
all the witnesses for coming to talk today about diversity in 
media and how we can really work with organizations to secure 
diversity in media ownership in the United States. And I think 
it is really interesting that we are having this hearing right 
now because, as you know, the Oscar nominations were just 
released. There has been a lot of talk about some of the 
nominees and the lack of diversity with some of the nominees as 
it relates to that segment of the media community. And so maybe 
during this hearing, we can find a solution to hashtag 
OscarSoWhite. I don't know if we are going to be able to find a 
solution for that but at least if we begin to just start having 
conversations, I think that we are really taking a step in the 
right direction.
    I want to talk with Mr. Odom and thank you for taking the 
time to be with us this morning. In your testimony, you state 
that while African Americans are a major consumers of media, we 
are woefully underrepresented as employees in the industry and 
co-owners of media businesses. The bill that we have been 
talking about today that I am also a co-sponsor of with Mr. 
Long would direct the FCC to study barriers to market entry for 
minorities.
    In addition to studying barriers, what do you think can be 
done to encourage minorities, not only to own and operate media 
stations, but enable more of them to reach positions of general 
manager or a c-suite of media corporations in order to have 
more control over what content is prioritized and shown to 
consumers?
    Mr. Odom. Thank you for your question, Congressman.
    I think your allusion to the OscarSoWhite problem actually 
put your finger on a potential solution. Many of the things 
that we are talking about today require government fiat, laws 
to be enacted, and the FCC to act, but there is a great area of 
opportunity with the producers of--the distributors of content 
and the creators of content to undertake on their own 
initiatives.
    I always like to commend our friends at NAB for the BLT 
Program. Not only is it delicious, but it is moving the needle 
in very important ways to find--and it is not compelled by 
government action. It is compelled by the industry itself, 
saying that we need to do better.
    We have worked at the National Urban League, along with our 
colleagues at NITOS, and Asians are Advancing Justice, and 
other groups to approach companies that have challenges, self-
admitted challenges, with the number of employees they have, 
the companies they do business with. And when we have been able 
to sit down with them, we have produced, I think, some 
impressive results and results that we will be hearing a lot 
more about in the future.
    Our work with Comcast/NBC Universal, in particular, over 
ten years ago, we think has yielded some good results that have 
turned into more programming, more distribution outlets, and 
mentorship, and incubator programs inside that company that 
have really yielded a lot of good results. We have worked with 
T-Mobile just recently, hoping to get some data on that, when 
that agreement becomes effective.
    But I think some of these voluntary efforts that we have 
been talking about can yield a lot of fruit.
    Mr. Veasey. Do you want--would you like to see more 
government? I mean, you have touched on that and I wanted to 
ask you.
    Mr. Odom. Oh, absolutely, there is a critical role here for 
government. The Tax Certificate Program, as we said, could not 
be done by Commission on its own initiative. If that had been 
the case, it would have been done a long time ago and it would 
have included women.
     The data--we need the data. We need the Adarand studies; 
you know, especially where race and gender challenges could be 
brought. If you don't lay the proper factual and legal 
predicate, these laws will be subject to challenge in the 
courts or challenged by Congress undoing what it did. We have 
got to create the facts. We have got to build the record.
    As a young lawyer, I was at the FCC when the Adarand 
decision came down, and we had to scramble and work with 
Professor Sandoval to figure out how are we going to try to 
keep some of these policies in place, in light of what appears 
is strict scrutiny of anything that mentions women and people 
of color.
    Mr. Veasey. Yes, well, thank you very much.
    Ms. Sutter, very briefly, I just am curious about what you 
and your colleagues are planning to do to expand the number of 
minorities, particularly people of color, in the ownership 
sphere of the media industry.
    Ms. Sutter. Well, certainly, the BLT Program has probably 
been the most effective. We now have 55 that own or have owned 
out of the 325 graduates and this program is celebrating its 
20th anniversary this year.
    And so continuing to do that, where we provide the 
information that new entrants will need, as well as the ability 
to know how to access capital, I think is really critical to 
this. And the NAB remains, as I do, committed to doing this.
    We also think it is important to get people to be able to 
own; you have to get people into the business to get the 
experience. So the NAB has a number of programs at the entry-
level, and mid-level, and for technical people so that we can 
have people into the pipeline that then push toward that 
ownership as we get farther along.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman's time has expired.
    The Chair now recognizes a wounded--Billy; you are not 
chasing little dogs around anymore, are you?
    Mr. Long. No more poodle wrangling for me.
    Mr. Doyle. You have 5 minutes, sir.
    Mr. Long. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    And Ms. Sutter, as I believe you know, I introduced a bill 
last week, H.R. 5567, the MEDIA Diversity Act of 2020, that 
directs the FCC to consider market entry barriers in the 
communications marketplace.
    In your testimony, you touched on obstacles you overcame in 
purchasing your first station, including the inability to 
access capital. Could you expand on that a little bit?
    Ms. Sutter. Yes, sir. Thank you very much.
    We touched on briefly the fact that it is very difficult to 
get financing for broadcast properties, especially for new 
entrants, because they don't have collateral by having other 
stations and larger properties that they could pledge to a 
bank. They are very resistant to loaning to broadcasters. We 
are a cash flow business, not a collateral business. We are not 
bricks and mortar. We are goodwill. We are part of the 
community. As such, banks are reluctant. They don't understand.
    And much of the work that we do is to try to educate banks 
on how to loan to the broadcast industry because many smaller 
regional banks are not familiar with how broadcasting works, 
and so they are reluctant to be able to do that. And so it is 
an education process.
    And certainly, the idea of a tax certificate is something 
that I think really addresses so directly how to get capital 
because if, in fact, you have a major company that is willing 
to sell to a new entrant, it gives a higher degree of 
confidence to a bank that they are buying a property that is an 
ongoing property, that it has got good resources. And so I 
think that the tax certificate not only helps get us access to 
deal flow, it helps us get access to capital.
    Mr. Long. I know that there has been a lot of consolidation 
of things going on since you purchased that first station. Has 
accessing finance become easier or rougher since that time and 
what is being done by the FCC and the private sector currently 
to solve those issues?
    Ms. Sutter. I can tell you it wasn't easy then and it is 
not easy now. So that hasn't changed.
    The difference between then and now is, I think, that we 
went through a very serious economic crisis in 2008, 2009, and 
2010. And what that did was to take many companies that were in 
the broadcast space of lending and they left the business. So 
we have fewer financial institutions that are considering and 
have experienced loaning to broadcasters, which makes it more 
difficult, which is why if we can demonstrate to banks that it 
is a profitable situation because the bigger companies get 
financing. The bigger companies have bank deals but they also 
have more concentration to be able to pledge.
    So for us, the tax certificate is an answer to so many 
issues that affect women and minorities, but the thing that I 
think is the best is we know it works. We have statistical 
history. We may not have statistics on everything, but we have 
a statistical history that says that increased the number of 
minorities by 550 percent. I think that is a great track record 
that we ought to begin to use again.
    Mr. Long. Right. Yes, that is quite a statistic.
    Ms. Sutter. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Long. And I believe my bill will give us a better 
picture of the state of the marketplace by requiring the FCC to 
consider market entry barriers for socially disadvantaged 
individuals.
    Other than access to capital, what are some of the other 
barriers to entry?
    Ms. Sutter. Well, certainly, the access to deal flow. And 
we have touched on that but getting the major companies to talk 
to smaller broadcasters is also a challenge. Just being able to 
get into, being able to know what stations are for sale, 
because the deals frequently are never publicized. They don't 
even go to brokers. It is one person talking to another person 
and, next thing you know, a deal has happened for which you 
were not even able to present your case.
    So the tax certificate, in essence, incentivizes all 
sellers to look for, to identify, and to speak to women and 
people of color who can then be helpful to them by providing 
the tax benefits.
    Mr. Long. OK.
    Ms. Sandoval, do you want to add something?
    Ms. Sandoval. Thank you very much, Congressmember.
    Another dimension I wanted to add to this, as Ms. Sutter 
mentioned, broadcast is a cash flow business. And one of the 
practices that really undermines cash flow continues to be an 
issue for minority broadcasters is the practice of what is 
called minority discounts. And this is something that was 
documented in another chapter in this book and also in the 1999 
study, we commissioned at the FCC called, When Being Number One 
is Not Enough. The practice of both no urban dictates and no 
Spanish dictates where advertisers wouldn't advertise with 
minority-owned or -serving stations, no matter what their 
actual ratings were.
    The FCC banned that practice in 2008; it took nine years to 
do that. But minority discounts, where broadcasters get paid 
less when your audience is the minority, continues to be a 
problem. I am sure Jim Winston from the National Association of 
Black Owned Broadcasters and the Spanish Broadcasters could 
talk about that. And that is something which undermines both 
access to capital, and finance ability, and undermines service. 
And I think Congress could also speak to discrimination in 
advertising.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Long. OK, thank you.
    Mr. Doyle. The Chair now recognizes Mr. O'Halleran for 5 
minutes.
    Mr. O'Halleran. Thank you, Chairman Doyle and Ranking 
Member Latta, for holding today's hearing on ensuring every 
voice is heard in our media marketplace.
    Diversity and the free expression of such viewpoints is a 
bedrock of our democracy. It is important that we increase 
opportunities for diverse ownership within the media 
marketplace, especially in rural communities, such as those in 
my district that may lack this type of diversity.
    I have a tremendous amount of Hispanic population. There is 
no radio station. Native Americans have a couple of radio 
stations but I have 12 tribes and a lot of those don't have 
them.
    This is a bipartisan goal of this committee and I thank our 
witnesses for their testimony on this important matter.
    Ms. Sutter, I appreciate the work of the Broadcasting 
Leadership Training Program to promote diversity in the media 
ownership through hands-on training and mentorship.
    You identify a lack of access to capital as a barrier to 
diverse ownership, including a case in which it took program 
graduates as long as three years to secure financing to acquire 
radio and television broadcast stations. How should potential 
valuation of a FCC license for a radio or television station be 
taken into consideration by lenders when considering providing 
capital to aspiring media owners?
    Ms. Sutter. Thank you for your question.
    The issue of the broadcast license, as I have referenced 
before, is that it is our greatest asset, but we are not 
allowed to collateralize it because, technically, it is 
something that we don't own. It is given to us for a period of 
time.
    I would suggest that working with the SBA, we, at the BLT 
program and the NAB, have worked with the SBA. Perhaps there 
are ways that we can get some greater consideration in there 
looking at it because broadcasters, smaller broadcasters 
especially, use the 7(a) SBA Program as a way to be able to do 
smaller deals. They lifted the limit from $2 million to $5 
million, which now makes it something that can be useful for 
broadcasters. And so we eventually were able to do a 7(a) loan 
for the individual that I referenced in here.
    But I think that the SBA would be a place that we could 
certainly look to be an example by perhaps changing some of the 
requirements of how they looked at a broadcast license and that 
would, perhaps, assure other banks because you know the SBA 
licenses--or the SBA loan is guaranteed over $350,000--over 
$150,000. It is guaranteed for 75 percent.
    So the banks that loan under the SBA Program have a 75 
percent guarantee from the SBA. So that is one way that is very 
specific that I think we could look at a place where Congress 
could make a difference, where the SBA, I think, would be open 
to something like this, and the NAB has an ongoing relationship 
and conversation with them.
    Mr. O'Halleran. How can the FCC's Incubator Program for 
aspiring radio broadcasters help address common barriers to 
ownership, such as experience or access to capital? In your 
opinion, how could this Incubator Program be improved to 
include television, which was discussed earlier?
    And I would like to know a little bit more about the 
mentorship program and how that works.
    Ms. Sutter. Yes, sir.
    The Incubator Program, as it was designed, was a way, 
again, not unlike the tax certificate, to give incentives to 
larger companies to want to work with a new entrant, be it a 
woman, or a person of color. That the idea is that they would, 
in fact, mentor to be an incubator for someone who was 
interested in buying one of their properties. And they would 
identify a property. They would have that person work there 
and, in essence, act as its operator in an ownership-like 
position, and they would provide them with financial 
incentives. They would provide them with expertise and training 
from other people on their team and their staff. And at the end 
of that period, that there would be an opportunity to perhaps 
acquire that station. And for that, the incubator would have 
the opportunity to perhaps get credit toward owning a station 
in a market where they might not be able to do so.
    Mr. O'Halleran. Thank you. I just want to point out I have 
worked with a number of contracts that require diversity within 
the chosen people. And this is one of the most difficult 
processes I have come across, as far as being able to 
capitalize the process and move it forward.
    Thank you very much.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman's time has expired.
    The Chair now recognizes Mrs. Brooks for 5 minutes.
    And Mrs. Brooks, before you start, I will say to the 
witnesses, when you see that red light is flashing, that means 
you should stop speaking, too. OK? We have had a couple of 
times when we have gone over a minute--except the witness from 
Pittsburgh. You can speak.
    Mrs. Brooks, you are recognized.
    Mrs. Brooks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And actually, thank 
you all so very much for being here.
    I represent Indianapolis, Indiana, Indiana's 5th 
Congressional District, and so I was really pleased, Ms. 
Sutter, that you talked about DuJuan McCoy and his role, which 
is, I think a very exciting role, not only for Indianapolis, 
his new ownership of two significant television stations, but 
his leadership role with Circle City Broadcast for a number of 
years. And of course, Deon Livingston, who is our regional and 
general manager for--I still refers to it as Radio One--it will 
always--and they are going to have a while before we don't call 
it Radio One. But you know there is significant leadership in 
our community.
    And I am curious and I applaud the work of your leadership 
foundation. What will you do, since he was in your class, Mr. 
McCoy----
    Ms. Sutter. As was Deon. Deon is a graduate also of the BLT 
Program.
    Mrs. Brooks. So they have been in your class. How are you 
using the graduates of your class? So they went through your 
long program and it sounds like it was excellent. How are you 
utilizing what they have learned throughout their incredibly 
distinguished careers? And now the success that they are 
having, and the difficulties, and the barriers that it took to 
get there----
    Ms. Sutter. Yes.
    Mrs. Brooks [continuing]. How are you using their stories?
    And what should we, back in Indiana, and people like me, be 
talking about relative to their leadership?
    Ms. Sutter. Of the 325 graduates that we have, we have--of 
that, six have come back to become actual sponsors of the 
program. So they have given back to the program that has given 
to them and been paid sponsors, so that others could go through 
the program.
    And DuJuan is one of those. He was actually the first to 
come back as a sponsor of the program itself.
    In addition to that, both Deon and DuJuan have come back as 
faculty members for the program, as have over a dozen other 
members of the program who have graduated and become either 
owners, CEOs--I referenced Jordan Wertlieb from Hearst 
Television. Jordan comes back every year to speak to the class 
as a BLT grad.
    All of the BLT grads that have been part of the program 
have, in many cases, to be part of it but all stay in touch 
with the program.
    We have matched, in many cases, people who are looking for 
stations in markets where we have BLT grads. We have put them 
in touch with one another. We have an app for all of our 
graduates that shows them where they are, how to reach them 
with contact information, so that we can keep that as a 
network, if you will, to use.
    And also, DuJuan and several other of our graduates have 
become associate deans for the program.
    Mrs. Brooks. Outstanding. Thank you so much for sharing.
    Yes?
    Ms. Coley. If I could say a little bit about DuJuan. MMTC, 
as I have mentioned, we have a nonprofit brokerage run by David 
Honig and Suzanne Gougherty. And DuJuan, I guess after he 
graduated, he is a client and regular member and speaker at our 
conferences. And what the brokerage does is that it helps to 
get entrepreneurs into the deal flow because you know certain 
deals come to us and then we are able to share.
    I haven't met Deon yet but I would imagine that he will be 
a client.
    Ms. Sutter. They were both in the same class. That was 
quite a year.
    Mrs. Brooks. Well and I guess I would ask--I am curious 
whether or not your two organizations work together.
    Ms. Coley. Yes.
    Ms. Sutter. I am on the Advisory Board for MMTC.
    Mrs. Brooks. OK.
    Ms. Sutter. And MMTC is very much involved in coordinating 
efforts with what we do in the terms of the BLT Program. And 
there is considerable overlap in terms of point of view.
    Mrs. Brooks. OK.
    Ms. Coley. And one of the things that, if I may, there was 
a period after the tax certificate--the brokerage was formed 
after the tax certificate was gotten rid of. And so one of the 
things that occurred in order to help some diversity to happen, 
the brokerage was the recipient of several station donations 
from Clear Channel, who is now iHeartRadio. And through that 
process of donating the stations to MMTC, we were able to help 
minority buyers to first, you know serve as managers and then, 
ultimately, buy the station.
    So that is another thing. We didn't really mention that 
before but----
    Ms. Sutter. And you do want to mention to whom you sold two 
of those stations. Perhaps a BLT grad.
    Ms. Coley. Yes.
    Ms. Sutter. I just wanted to share that.
    Mrs. Brooks. Well thank you for sharing and thank you for 
your incredible work. And I really appreciate the incredibly 
important role that those stations play in the central Indiana 
community.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentlelady yields back.
    The Chair now recognizes Mr. Butterfield for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Butterfield. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and let 
me again thank the four witnesses for your testimony today.
    Mr. Chairman, I have sat here patiently from the gavel. I 
heard every question and every conversation that has taken 
place. And so I am not one to go through questions that have 
already been asked and most of the questions that I had 
prepared have already been asked of the witnesses.
    And so I am going to forego most of this but I will ask 
Professor Sandoval something very simple.
    How does diverse media ownership serve the public 
interests? I know we have made the business case for it and how 
it gives women and minorities an opportunity to engage in 
business activities and to acquire wealth but what is the 
public interest?
    Ms. Sandoval. So as I mentioned, and as the courts--the 
Supreme Court has recognized as well, that media ownership 
diversity is important because owners have the opportunity to 
decide what content gets aired, which editorials get aired, 
which commercials get aired or rejected, and also who gets 
employed.
    So this is important. For example, I wrote a book chapter 
on the Native American Reservation electricity and 
infrastructure gap and am planning to go back to the Yurok 
Reservation in California, where there is a large electricity 
gap, in March.
    And for some time, I have been trying to pitch the station 
to--some of our local TV stations, who eventually interviewed 
me about electricity issues and the PG&E bankruptcy, to come 
with me to the Yurok Reservation, with the cooperation of the 
Yurok, tell the story about this gap, this unbelievable gap 
where people in California do not have electricity. And it has 
been a really hard sell to get somebody to come and cover this 
story.
    And so at this point, I am thinking you know, I have a 
former graduate who went to film school. So I am going to ask 
him if he can come with me so that we, along with the Yurok, 
can create this story. People need to know about this but yet, 
the mainstream broadcasters are not covering it.
    Mr. Butterfield. That is very helpful.
    Ms. Sandoval. And so these are stories that also, as you 
have issues that we talked about with a disaster, you know 
getting out information, another important message, that ICE is 
not going to do enforcement at shelters, is absolutely critical 
to keeping people in my community safe during fires, and 
ensuring that they are not in a danger zone, and that they are 
not putting first responders in danger.
    Having broadcasters who are willing to air that story and 
understand the importance of airing that story is the 
difference that also media ownership diversity makes for 
everyone.
    Mr. Butterfield. OK. I needed to get that into the record.
    I am going to yield the balance of my time to Ms. Clarke of 
New York.
    Ms. Clarke. I thank my colleague and I thank our panel for 
your expert witness today.
    I want to drill down on EEO enforcement. Mr. Odom, given 
the goals to reestablish Form 395 EEO data collection, is there 
any reason why the FCC could not issue an order to restart the 
collection of this data from the record before it in this 
proceeding?
    And Ms. Sandoval, what are your thoughts regarding the lack 
of data on the diversity of media ownership?
    Mr. Odom. Thank you for your question. It is a very simple 
answer: Nothing is stopping the FCC. In fairness to Chairman 
Pai, he has articulated a general concern about the 
constitutional implications of enacting the program or 
beginning to collect the data again.
    The National Urban League, along with our partners at MMTC, 
and a number of other civil rights organizations, have said 
there is really no constitutional or legal impediment to doing 
so and, although we respect the cautious litigation stance of 
the FCC, we believe the FCC has a very strong legal case to 
enact those record collection requirements immediately.
    Ms. Coley. And if I may just add, the MMTC has also----
    Ms. Clarke. Your mike.
    Ms. Coley. MMTC has also advised the FCC that that--in 
order to have the data, to have the most conservative point, 
you could have the data anonymized, and that would further 
insulate it, if there are concerns on the Commission. And we 
are trying to work with the Commission to use that approach as 
well.
    Ms. Sandoval. Thank you very much for your question.
    EEO data was collected for decades by the FCC and, in fact, 
there are was also EEO enforcement that was very active. And so 
what your bill would call for is just starting up the data 
collection again, which actually the FCC is already mandated to 
do by Congress. This is already a statutory mandate, which the 
FCC does not have the discretion to ignore.
    And creating this data is also important because 
broadcasting is an industry that is infused with the public 
interest. They hold their licenses as trustees for the public 
interest. So as a matter of transparency, corporate governance, 
as well as research and understanding by policymakers, this 
data is absolutely critical, absolutely collectible, and should 
be released.
    Mr. Doyle. Thank you. And you will be next afterward if you 
want to--you will have another 5 minutes, if you want it, after 
Mr. Flores, who is now recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Flores. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the 
panel for being here today and thank you for the tangible and 
meaningful work that you have done to improve diversity in the 
media space.
    I want to talk about the Broadcast Leadership Program or 
the BLT Program that the NAB has helped sponsor in terms of 
being an initiative. It has brought real impact, and diversity, 
and inclusion in the broadcast industry and I am pleased to 
note that Gray TV, a broadcasting company with a strong 
presence in central Texas, is an active partner in this 
program. And I have had the pleasure of working with Gray TV 
stations countless times during my tenure in Congress. They 
produce quality local programs and their broadcast company 
spends an incredible amount of time giving back to the 
community, not only their time in resources and valuable air 
time.
    Mister--Ms. Sutter--excuse me--the BLT Program focuses on 
promoting the fundamentals of purchasing, owning, and running a 
successful operation of broadcast stations. How has the 
competition from tech platforms impacted Wall Street's 
willingness to provide capital to broadcast stations for 
investment and diverse programming sources?
    Ms. Sutter. Well, certainly, one of the challenges that we 
have is that the competition in the media space has grown 
exponentially. And so, I think the challenge for all of us is 
to be able to recognize what makes us different and what makes 
us unlike those other organizations that are national; and that 
is, that we have the ability to be local and represent our 
communities. And because of that, that is the unique difference 
that we try to convey when we speak with financial institutions 
and help them understand that we play a different and more 
central role in the communities that we serve. And that is why 
we try to go to local banks for financing. The challenge we run 
into is the one I have addressed previously in our 
conversations----
    Mr. Flores. Exactly.
    Ms. Sutter [continuing]. Is the lack of collateral.
    But again, with the SBA, we have been able to make that 
happen in some cases with a guaranteed loan from the SBA.
    Mr. Flores. OK, thank you.
    Mr. Odom, I was glad to read in your testimony that the 
National Urban League is working closely with communication 
companies like Comcast/NBC, Charter, and T-Mobile to develop 
and promote diversity inclusion plans. This is especially 
important as we see a growing trend of entertainment 
consumption in the media marketplace growing outside the 
traditional broadcast model and into over-the-top services, 
such as YouTube, et cetera.
    How can we expand the initiatives to the over-the-top-
providing programmers to help improve diversity in that area?
    Mr. Odom. Thank you for your question and it is an 
excellent question, one that we have given a lot of thought to.
    As we said earlier, there are some of us on the panel who 
are members of the FCC's Diversity Committee. And one of the 
things that we have undertaken recently is a study of the 
diversity practices of older, more established media companies 
and telecom companies versus those of younger companies. One of 
the conclusions that we have been able to draw from that study, 
from that research, and this is from sitting down with some of 
the tech companies and trying to understand their practices, is 
that younger companies may not have the same ethos for 
diversity as older companies that have had the time to work 
through these issues, understand the importance of deepening 
the ties with the community, with having a diverse workforce 
that yields a discernable difference in their outcome.
    So we think that this is something that may--it will, 
hopefully, improve over time, but it improves with the 
leadership of these companies. And the companies, themselves, 
and the CEOs of all of those companies have to eventually do 
what other companies have done and say this is important. We 
will tie, in some cases, our compensation to executives to 
their meeting their goals. We will set goals for ourselves to 
do more business with women, and people of color, and 
businesses owned by those individuals.
    But it is a matter of leadership and when leadership 
decides it is going to take it seriously, it can be done. These 
are the same folks that are finding cures for cancer, that are 
finding ways to change our lives in innumerable ways. I don't 
believe that this is going to be that difficult a task if the 
leaders of these organizations decide it is.
    Mr. Flores. OK. I only have a few seconds left. And, in 
that regard, from a policy perspective, if we are looking at 
legislation to deal with the diversity issue, and try to 
improve diversity, should we consider the new media space as 
part of that legislation?
    Mr. Odom. We have not given any thought to this, but I will 
tell you, as someone who has been around this industry for 30 
years, whatever happens in the license area, eventually happens 
in the unlicensed area, either through these companies merging 
or through--think about political advertising. There is now a 
call to regulate political advertising for companies that have 
not been regulated by this government. It is a show that is 
coming to them and I think, at some point, Congress will and 
has looked at these issues.
    Mr. Flores. OK, thank you.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman's time has expired.
    Mr. Flores. Thank you. I yield back.
    Mr. Doyle. Ms. Clarke, you are now recognized for 5 
minutes.
    Ms. Clarke. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I thank our 
panelists once again.
    I wanted to drill down on the issue of diversity and 
localism. This question is directed to Ms. Coley. Today, there 
are markets where the same entity controls two, three, or 
sometimes four local radio broadcasting stations or network 
feeds.
    Ms. Coley, do you think that is good for diversity and 
localism? And does this threaten a community with a lack of 
diverse voices in a local market?
    Ms. Coley. Thank you for your question.
    And absolutely, I think that is one of the key issues that 
surround all of what we are talking about today, the whole 
issue with the tax certificate and then the fact that the tax 
certificate breeds ownership. If there is a concentration of 
ownership, then it limits the number of opportunities that are 
available for diverse entrepreneurs to get into that space and 
diversify voices.
    And then the other thing is that the--in the broadcaster, 
in particular, there is not a lot available and so it makes it 
even more hard for new entrants to get into that space.
    So yes, I think there is a correlation.
    Ms. Clarke. Yes, we are dealing with that in New York City, 
as a matter of fact.
    Having said that, I would like to yield the balance of my 
time to the gentleman from Illinois.
    Mr. Doyle. Ms. Clarke, Mr. Rush is waiving on the committee 
and by rules----
    Ms. Clarke. Oh, OK.
    Mr. Doyle [continuing]. Cannot speak to everyone on the 
committee.
    Ms. Clarke. Very well. I yield back the balance of my time, 
Mr. Chairman.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentlelady yields back.
    Mr. Johnson, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
    Ms. Sutter, I have got a lot of broadcasters in my 
districts. It is a very rural district and so local 
broadcasters are near and dear to my heart because, in rural 
America, they are the main source of information to people that 
don't have access to broadband. So they don't have the online 
access to news and information.
    So, in your opinion, how do you compare the regulatory 
burdens imposed on broadcasters with other providers of local 
news and content, like print and online?
     Ms. Sutter. Well, if I am not mistaken, they don't have 
any. So that regulation doesn't exist for others.
    I think broadcasters want to be able to do the best that 
they can to provide the information for their local 
communities. And so being able to do that is where the 
resources ought to be placed, toward providing the best 
programming, doing the things that we can to make sure that the 
community is well-served, well-informed, and has access to 
information, entertainment, and news that is important to them.
    So the hope and goal are that we won't make it so that the 
smaller broadcasters, especially, many of whom are graduates of 
the BLT Program in these small markets, are able to put their 
resources toward the place that can benefit their community.
    So I would simply--and I think that is one of the things 
the FCC has attempted to do, is to try to reduce some of the 
things that they perceive are not essential, in terms of 
regulation, that take away resources way from the core of what 
it is we do, which is serve our communities. So that is 
important.
    Mr. Johnson. Great. OK.
    Well, you know much of the debate surrounding diversity 
centers on past and current ownership statistics but we need to 
be more forward-thinking. Local radio and television 
broadcasters are striving to integrate online and app-based 
technologies to improve their outreach to their communities.
    What type of programs do the broadcasting industry conduct 
to grow and promote new entrants and leaders seeking to 
innovate in broadcasting?
    Ms. Sutter. Broadcasters understand that their content is 
what makes them unique and special. And looking for as many 
places to deploy that content is what creates the innovation, I 
think, that we have seen in our industry.
    The question about over-the-top, OTT, many broadcasters are 
looking to get their content distributed OTT as well. So for 
broadcasters, it is about, once we have created the content, 
how do we find as many different screens, as many different 
opportunities? I think we are utilizing our digital channels in 
television, as well as in radio, to try and find more ways to 
provide additional information and our content to get it to 
people as they want it.
    Mr. Johnson. Great.
    Mr. Chairman, I don't want to get yelled at. So, I am going 
to yield back.
    Mr. Doyle. I thank the gentleman for that.
    The Chair recognizes Mr. Cardenas for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Cardenas. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and 
Ranking Member. I appreciate the opportunity for us to discuss 
this very important issue that, if we get it right and we make 
the progress that almost everybody here agrees that we should 
be making, it is really, really good for business, and it is 
amazingly good for democracy, and it is important to make sure 
that inclusion is done in a way that is not about affirmative 
action. It is not about affirmative action with me. It is just 
about good action. It is just about doing what is right across 
the spectrum, to make sure that inclusion is felt in the hearts 
and the minds of everybody in this country, to make sure that 
we are taking advantage of all of the amazing talents that 
comes in women, in men, in people of color, and even white men. 
Everybody deserves to be included because of their talent and 
because of what they can contribute.
    I want to thank my colleagues for coming together to have 
this thoughtful discussion today on the need for improving our 
diversity in media ownership. And more and more of our 
constituents are seeing the benefits of seeing diverse voices 
and perspectives in our programming, which, in turn, reflects 
the diversity of our great country and embodies the First 
Amendment values of our democracy.
    And I welcome this discussion, not only today but in the 
future as well, at every level, both in Congress, on the 
streets of America, and certainly when it comes to our 
regulators.
    I also want to give a shout-out to my colleague, Katherine 
Clark, and my colleague, Judy Chu. We have been chairing a 
caucus that focuses on diversity in media. And it is really 
important that we increase this awareness at every level.
    Ms. Coley, in your written testimony, you mentioned that 
some media companies have developed diversity and inclusion 
plans that represent commitments by these individual companies 
to improve the racial diversity in the Boards of Directors, in 
the c-suites, among staff, procurement, and community 
investment. Can you discuss what some of those plans and 
commitments look like?
    Ms. Coley. Yes, thank you for your question.
    Mr. Odom mentioned a couple of those, the National Urban 
League, MMTC have worked with NAACP, and National Action 
Network in helping companies to come up with commitments. We 
call them the Diversity MOUs. And then the commitments on 
Comcast/NBC Universal. T-Mobile recently entered into one. 
Charter Communications entered into one. And they are very 
comprehensive voluntary commitments to address diversity at the 
employment level, at the c-suite and Board diversity level, and 
also in procurement, and also in community outreach activities.
    And what we have learned is in Comcast's case, for 
instance, they entered into an MOU to launch a number of 
diverse programming networks. And a lot of times, what you 
learn is that we are living in America in 2021 and a lot of 
these networks are very good business. And so what you find is 
that some companies actually exceed some of the requirements 
under the MOU because they see that this is actually really a 
good----
    Mr. Cardenas. Are those companies who are succeeding, or 
are they going bankrupt? Are they suffering from these efforts 
or are they doing well?
    Ms. Coley. Yes, right. Comcast hardly--no, I think they are 
doing very good. And it creates an environment in which we are 
working with the companies. They are doing something that 
benefits them. It benefits us and the community, as well. And 
it helps America look like you know America. And I think that 
we are going to continue to do those kinds of things on a 
voluntarily basis.
    On the data collection, we have worked with NAMIC, the 
National Association of Multi-Ethnicity in Communications, and 
Women in Cable and Telecommunications. They commissioned and 
produced an amazing study with Mercer. And they actually have 
been voluntarily collecting this data, employment data, for the 
past ten years and they set benchmarks.
    And then I was at their conference this past September and 
they had a huge celebration of how they exceeded the benchmarks 
they set.
    Mr. Cardenas. Thank you. In the interest of time, I just 
wanted to thank Ms. Sandoval, who is a former CPUC 
commissioner, one of the few, if not the only--first Latina 
commissioner, I think, in the history of California to be on 
the Public Utilities Commission.
    And it is really important that we get a perspective across 
the board. And I want to thank all of you for your continued 
work and all the efforts that you are putting forth to drive 
not only this issue, but for many good issues across America. 
So thank you very much.
    I yield back.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman yields back.
    Seeing no committee members present, it now gives me great 
pleasure to welcome my good friend, Bobby Rush, who chairs our 
Energy Subcommittee, who is waiving on the committee today. And 
Bobby, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
    Mr. Rush. I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman and it is a 
delight to me, once again, on this very key committee in 
Congress.
    Serving most of my time as a Member in Congress as a member 
on this subcommittee, for years, and years, and years, I have 
been consistently on this subcommittee. And I think this is the 
first time--first term, rather, that I have not been on this 
subcommittee. But that said, I want to thank you for holding 
this important hearing.
    As I look into the parties, I see faces that I have seen 
over the years of people who have been concerned about the 
issue of minority participation in media, and the various two-
minority participation in many years, for many, many years that 
I, on the one hand, well, I am very appreciative of you holding 
this hearing, but I am also disappointed that we are having 
these kinds of hearings that we have had many, many, many times 
before.
    And it is kind of disheartening that we still are having 
some of the same arguments, taking some of the same positions 
that we have taken for decades now.
    Mr. Chairman, I was a part of this committee when the Tax 
Certificate Program ended back in 1995. And I agree that it was 
one of the most successful economic development opportunities 
that existed for minorities, particularly for African 
Americans, in decades, if not centuries, and granted 
broadcasters to finally grant minorities a voice, a recognized 
voice in their communities, and touch our nation as a whole, 
and it increased minority access to capital in the broadcasting 
industry.
    Mr. Chairman, I just have to say for the record that back 
in 1994 that there were 64 black-owned banks that could loan 
money, that could provide capital, to minorities and today, 
there are 21 black-owned banks. So we are headed in the wrong 
direction. We are headed in a downward spiral.
    Mr. Chairman, I read somewhere recently that the net worth 
of white Americans in this nation is somewhere around $137,000; 
the net worth of African Americans is $11,000--headed in the 
wrong direction.
    Mr. Chairman, back in 2003, I introduced the 
Telecommunications Ownership and Diversification Act, which was 
aimed to reinstate the Tax Certificate Program. And we weren't 
successful--changing administrations and what have you, we 
weren't successful.
    The situation is even more desperate than it was and 
different than it was in 1995, when the Tax Certificate Program 
ended.
    We heard a lot of discussions today about the problem with 
diversity as it relates to broadcasters. And it is a problem, 
but I believe that the problem is even greater than just this 
one problem. The problem that we are confronted with is 
pervasive throughout the media and the telecommunications 
industry, particularly. And to address this much greater 
problem is why I am working on legislation that would address 
the lack of diversity in a more robust, effective, and 
comprehensive way.
    My time is up, Mr. Chairman, and I don't have an 
opportunity to ask questions of the witnesses, but this is a 
problem----
    Mr. Doyle. That is because you talked for 5 and a half 
minutes.
    Mr. Rush. I know, Mr. Chairman, but this is a problem that 
is serious to my soul.
    Mr. Doyle. I understand.
    Mr. Rush. A very serious problem. And thank you for 
allowing me to be a part of this subcommittee.
    I yield back the balance of my time.
    Mr. Doyle. The gentleman yields back, and I thank him for 
being on the committee today. He is always welcome here.
    I want to request unanimous consent to enter the following 
documents into the record: a letter from the Leadership 
Conference on Civil and Human rights; a letter from the LPTV 
Spectrum Rights Coalition; a letter from the National Hispanic 
Media Coalition; a letter from Public Knowledge; a 2019 
National Association for Multi-Ethnicity in Communications and 
Women in Cable Telecommunications Diversity Survey; a statement 
in support of Expanding Broadcast Opportunities Act; a 
September 2019 letter from MMTC to the FCC; a December 2019 
letter from MMTC to the FCC; a September 2019 comments filed 
with the FCC; November 2019 comments filed with the FCC; and 
NTIA-MTDP Minority Broadcast Ownership report; a journal 
article by David Honig; and written remarks of Chairman Pai at 
MMTC's 9th Annual Broadband and Social Justice Summit.
    Without objection, it is so ordered.
    Mr. Doyle. I want to thank the witnesses for participating 
in today's hearing. We appreciated your testimony and your 
answering the many questions that were put in front of you.
    I would remind Members that, pursuant to committee rules, 
they have ten business days to submit additional questions for 
the record to be answered by the witnesses who have appeared. 
And I would ask that each witness who has appeared respond 
promptly to any such questions that you may receive.
    At this time, the committee is adjourned.
    [Whereupon, at 12:33 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
    [Material submitted for inclusion in the record follows:]

                Prepared Statement of Hon. Anna G. Eshoo

    Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing.
    An independent and diverse media that reflects the 
population it serves is critical for the health of our 
democracy and society. This should be the starting point for 
today's hearing. The Declaration of Rights of the Commonwealth 
of Virginia, which served as inspiration for our First 
Amendment's press freedom, states directly that ``the freedom 
of the press is one of the great bulwarks of liberty, and can 
never be restrained but by despotic governments.'' This is an 
eloquent statement underscoring why we need a free press.
    However, our constitutional right to a free press is a 
foundation we must build upon. Our goal ought to be a media 
ecosystem that reflects the make-up of our country, and on this 
goal, we're failing.
    Looking at traditional broadcast stations, which the FCC 
collects robust data on, we see myriad problems. To reflect the 
population, women should own about half of the broadcast 
stations. The FCC's most recent report on broadcast ownership 
finds that, in fact, women own less than ten percent of full 
power TV, AM, and FM stations.
    The Census estimates that 18.3 percent of Americans are 
Hispanic or Latino, yet they own five percent or less of full 
power commercial TV, AM, and FM stations. The situation is 
similarly problematic for African Americans, Asian Americans, 
Native Americans, and Native Hawaiians. Things get much worse 
when the intersection of gender and race is considered. Exactly 
one full power TV station is owned by an African American 
woman, according to the FCC's most recent report.
    I support legislative efforts to increase diversity in 
ownership of broadcast stations, cable and satellite TV 
distributors, as the legislation before us aims to do. This is 
why I've cosponsored two pieces of legislation we're 
considering:
     H. Res. 549, Reaffirming the commitment to media 
diversity and pledging to work with media entities and diverse 
stakeholders to develop common ground solutions to eliminate 
barriers to media diversity, which clearly articulates that 
media diversity is an important goal; and
     H.R. 3957, the Expanding Broadcast Ownership 
Opportunities Act of 2019, which reinstates a tax certificate 
to encourage ownership of broadcast media by women and people 
of color.
    Finally, I want to say a few words about issues that are 
not part of the scope of today's discussion, but impact media 
diversity and ought to be priorities for our Committee. The 
consolidation of ownership within the largest broadcast 
networks and cable companies in our country is a growing 
challenge that intensifies the lack of media diversity. Beyond 
ownership, media companies employ too few employees, especially 
those `on air,' who are women or people of color. The media 
that young Americans are flocking to--YouTube, Instagram, 
SnapChat, TikTok, and other apps--democratized content creation 
in many ways but have not made as much progress on diversity as 
was once hoped. Too often, top content creators on these 
platforms don't reflect their viewership, and to achieve a 
truly diverse media marketplace, we'll need to consider all of 
these issues and more.
    I thank the witnesses for being with us today, and I look 
forward to a productive hearing.
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