[House Hearing, 116 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
PAYCHECK PROTECTION PROGRAM: AN
EXAMINATION OF LOAN FORGIVENESS, SBA LEGACY SYSTEMS, AND INACCURATE
DATA
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON INNOVATION AND WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
UNITED STATES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
HEARING HELD
SEPTEMBER 24, 2020
__________
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Small Business Committee Document Number 116-094
Available via the GPO Website: www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
41-468 WASHINGTON : 2021
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS
NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Chairwoman
ABBY FINKENAUER, Iowa
JARED GOLDEN, Maine
ANDY KIM, New Jersey
JASON CROW, Colorado
SHARICE DAVIDS, Kansas
KWEISI MFUME, Maryland
JUDY CHU, California
DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania
BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York
ANTONIO DELGADO, New York
CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania
ANGIE CRAIG, Minnesota
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio, Ranking Member
AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, American Samoa, Vice Ranking Member
TROY BALDERSON, Ohio
KEVIN HERN, Oklahoma
JIM HAGEDORN, Minnesota
PETE STAUBER, Minnesota
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
ROSS SPANO, Florida
JOHN JOYCE, Pennsylvania
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina
Melissa Jung, Majority Staff Director
Justin Pelletier, Majority Deputy Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Kevin Fitzpatrick, Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Hon. Jason Crow.................................................. 1
Hon. Troy Balderson.............................................. 3
WITNESS
Mr. William Manger, Small Business Administration Chief of Staff,
Associate Administrator, Office of Capital Access, Small
Business Administration, Washington, DC........................ 4
APPENDIX
Prepared Statement:
Mr. William Manger, Small Business Administration Chief of
Staff, Associate Administrator, Office of Capital Access,
Small Business Administration, Washington, DC.............. 22
Questions for the Record:
None.
Answers for the Record:
None.
Additional Material for the Record:
None.
PAYCHECK PROTECTION PROGRAM: AN
EXAMINATION OF LOAN FORGIVENESS, SBA LEGACY SYSTEMS, AND INACCURATE
DATA
----------
THURSDAY, SEPTEMBER 24, 2020
House of Representatives,
Committee on Small Business,
Subcommittee on Innovation and Workforce
Development,
Washington, DC.
The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in
Room 2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jason Crow
[chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Crow, Finkenauer, Kim, Davids,
Houlahan, Chabot, Balderson, Hern, Burchett, and Joyce.
Chairman CROW. Good morning. I call this hearing to order.
I want to thank everyone for joining us this afternoon for this
official hybrid hearing.
I want to make sure to note some important requirements.
Let me begin by saying that standing House and Committee rules
and practice will continue to apply during hybrid proceedings.
All members are reminded that they are expected to adhere to
these standing rules, including decorum.
During the covered period, as designated by the Speaker,
the Committee will operate in accordance with H. Res. 965 and
the subsequent guidance from the Rules Committee in a manner
that respects the rights of all members to participate.
House regulations require members to be visible through a
video connection throughout the proceeding, so please keep your
cameras on. Also, please remember to remain muted until you are
recognized, to minimize background noise. If you have to
participate in another proceeding, please exit this one and log
back in later.
In the event a member encounters technical issues that
prevent them from being recognized for their questioning, I
will move to the next available member of the same party and I
will recognize that member at the next appropriate timeslot,
provided they have returned to the proceeding.
For those members physically present in the Committee room
today, we will also be following the health and safety
guidelines issued by the attending physician. That includes
social distancing and especially the use of masks. I urge
members and staff to wear masks at all times while in the
hearing room, and I thank you in advance for your commitment to
a safe environment for all here today.
I am pleased to be holding this hearing today to discuss
the technical aspects of the Small Business Administration's
Paycheck Protection Program and to learn more about the new
forgiveness portal.
I would like to thank Mr. William Manger--am I pronouncing
that right, Mr. Manger?--who serves as SBA's Chief of Staff as
well as the Associate Administrator for the Office of Capital
Access for joining us here today.
Let me begin by saying that the Committee recognizes that
the SBA had to launch the Paycheck Protection Program quickly
and disburse funds to small businesses that were in jeopardy of
closing, due to the coronavirus pandemic. But I am concerned
that in the rush to roll out the program, some important
technical controls with the PPP portal were overlooked.
The system used for PPP was quickly overwhelmed by an
unprecedented number of applications. The day the portal was
launched, it went offline for 4 hours, in which lenders could
not submit borrowers' applications. During the relaunch of the
portal for the second round of PPP funding, it crashed again.
I am concerned that SBA is relying on an outdated system to
process PPP loans. Back in 2014, the Government Accountability
Office notified the SBA that E-Tran, the electronic loan
processing system used to process PPP applications, may not be
able to handle a large influx of loan applications. Now, 6
years later, SBA is still relying on the E-Tran system. And I
have to wonder if these issues could have been prevented if SBA
heeded the warning of our government's watchdog.
Today I would like to learn more about what Congress can do
to support SBA's modernization efforts of the loan processing
systems. I am also concerned that the SBA system lacks critical
internal controls to ensure data accuracy.
On July 27, I, along with 28 other Members of Congress,
sent a letter to Administrator Carranza, detailing issues with
the data SBA released on July 6. According to one report in The
Washington Post, an analysis on 4.9 million loans indicated
that many companies retained far more workers than they employ.
Another report by the Post estimated that at least 226,000
small business loans were credited to the wrong congressional
district.
Our letter asked the SBA to clarify several data
categories, such as how the jobs retained figure was
calculated, how loans were attributed to congressional
districts and the measures taken to ensure future reports
contain accurate data. Sadly, we never received a response.
Turning now to loan forgiveness, I would like to know what
steps SBA is taking to ensure that the technology issues
encountered during the PPP loan application period do not occur
during the forgiveness period. But, most importantly, I would
like to know what SBA plans to do to make the loan forgiveness
process easier.
Small business owners are incredibly resilient and they are
used to overcoming challenges, but the coronavirus has been a
crushing blow. And while the PPP has helped them retain key
employees and make rent and other payments, many are anxious
that their loans won't be fully forgiven and they will be
saddled with more debt.
And the forgiveness forms do little to alleviate those
concerns. They are complex, confusing, and time-consuming.
Small businesses do not have the time or resources, in the
midst of a pandemic, to spend hours on end trying to fill out
these forms. They are fighting for their survival.
With that said, I look forward to hearing about these
important issues.
I now yield to the Ranking Member, Troy Balderson, for his
opening statement.
Mr. BALDERSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And thank you to Mr. Manger for coming before us today to
discuss how your office has handled the past 6 months.
The early days of this year marked an American economy that
was performing at historic highs. However, news started to
emerge from China on a health concern that was identified as a
new coronavirus. On March 13, President Trump declared a
national emergency, and soon afterward States and localities
began civil authority shutdowns of businesses to safeguard the
health of citizens.
Congress responded quickly. To prepare for the fast-moving
crisis, our entire Federal Government quickly worked together,
in a bipartisan manner, to enact numerous pieces of legislation
to enable the SBA to respond to the needs of America's small
business. These new tools that came from the legislation, such
as the Coronavirus Preparedness and Response Supplemental
Appropriations Act, the Families First Coronavirus Response
Act, and the Coronavirus Aid, Relief, and Economic Security
Act, or CARES.
As we all know, the CARES Act initiated the landmark
Paycheck Protection Program, or PPP, that provided small
businesses partially forgivable low-interest loans to keep
their employees on the payroll during the pandemic.
Although the implementation of the program at the agency
level, both at the SBA and at the Department of Treasury, has
initiated uneven with changing enrolling guidance, the PPP has
been a popular assistance program for small businesses across
the country.
The program has provided billions of dollars to our
Nation's smallest firms. Unfortunately, due to a lack of
consensus, the program lapsed on August 8, with more than $135
billion still available.
The Ranking Member of our full Committee, Mr. Chabot, has
introduced a new piece of legislation, H.R. 8265, that would
extend the program through the end of the year. I am a
cosponsor of this bill and was disappointed to see it fail in a
procedural vote on the House floor yesterday in a party-line
vote. I, for one, will continue to work with anyone who wants
to work with me to reopen this lifeline for America's smallest
firms.
The topic of today's hearing is of critical importance, as
we have the chance to hear from the SBA about how their systems
dealt with the stress of overseeing over 5.2 million PPP loans
over 4 months. Specifically, I am most interested in hearing
about how the SBA has implemented the PPP forgiveness process
in order to reduce the regulatory burden on small firms.
Mr. Manger, again, thank you for being here with us, and I
look forward to hearing your testimony and participating in the
ensuing discussion.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman CROW. Thank you, Mr. Balderson.
If Committee members have an opening statement prepared, we
would ask that they be submitted for the record.
I would like to just take a minute to explain the timing
rules. Each witness gets 5 minutes to testify and each member
gets 5 minutes for questioning. There is a lighting system to
assist you. The green light will be on when you begin, and the
yellow light comes on when you have 1 minute remaining. The red
light comes on when you are out of time, and we ask that you
stay within the timeframe to the best of your ability.
I would like to now introduce our witness, Mr. Manger. Mr.
Manger currently serves as the Small Business Administration's
Chief of Staff as well as the Associate Administrator for the
Office of Capital Access.
Prior to his SBA appointment, Mr. Manger served as managing
director at Brock Capital Group, where he advised and supported
small- to medium-size enterprises in their efforts to raise
capital and expand their business. Before investment banking,
he was the associate administrator for field operations at the
SBA.
Mr. Manger, we welcome you to the Committee, and you are
recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM MANGER, SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION
CHIEF OF STAFF, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR, OFFICE OF CAPITAL
ACCESS, SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION, WASHINGTON, DC
Mr. MANGER. Thank you, Chairman Crow, Ranking Member
Balderson, and the members of the Subcommittee. And I also want
to recognize the Ranking Member of the full Committee,
Congressman Chabot.
I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today and
to discuss the Paycheck Protection Program. First, let me
acknowledge the SBA staff and my colleagues in the Office of
Capital Access for their tireless work over the last 6 months.
SBA was charged with creating and implementing an
unprecedented economic relief program at a critical and
uncertain time in our Nation's economy. Working with Treasury,
we wrote program rules and launched the PPP within 6 days of
passage of the CARES Act.
Since then, the program has reached over 5.2 million small
businesses with over $525 billion in needed economic aid. I am
very proud of the work of the SBA staff. This achievement was
also made possible through a network of almost 5,500 lenders.
To put that in context, our SBA business loan programs have
annually around 1,800 active lenders.
In the 4 months that the PPP was receiving loans, 3,700 new
lenders were added. Behind that was a great deal of effort to
enable lender access to our E-Tran system. Our OCA team helped
provide system accounts for 73,000 new users and handled over
3.7 million system actions for all lenders.
During the PPP rollout, to match the number of lenders and
the anticipated loan volume, SBA made several significant
investments in our E-Tran system. Working very closely with our
CIO, we added servers, memory, and capacity at various stages
in PPP lending.
In referencing E-Tran, let me also clear up some false
impressions of the system. At no time did the PPP--at no time
during the PPP did the system fail or crash. E-Tran is a stable
system and fully supported by the agency.
Turning next to the PPP data disclosure, the agency has
been transparent with data throughout the program. SBA released
daily lending figures to Congress and the public. We provided
weekly detailed program overviews as well as two comprehensive
data disclosures of all PPP loans.
In comparing this to our 7(a) program, SBA posts lending
data following each fiscal quarter for a loan volume in the
tens of thousands. With PPP, in that same timeframe, we
disclosed loan data for millions of loans.
With three times the number of lenders and 260 times the
number of loans, there were some inequities in the first
release of the data. In response, SBA created a process for
lenders and borrowers to correct information that they had
inputted into the system. We also adjusted how the system
designated ZIP code locations within congressional districts.
This data will be further refined through the collection of
information during the loan forgiveness process.
To receive loan forgiveness, borrowers are responsible for
submitting a loan forgiveness application and the required
supporting documentation to their lender. Lenders are then
responsible for reviewing the documentation and issuing a
decision to SBA within 60 days of receiving the application.
Within 90 days of the lender decision and submission to SBA
and subject to any SBA review of the loan or the loan
application, SBA will remit the appropriate forgiveness amount
to the lender, plus any interest accrued through the date of
payment.
SBA opened the forgiveness portal on August 10. We released
three rules and detailed FAQ documents on the process. We
established a hotline for lender inquiries and conducted a
stakeholder call with over 10,000 participants at one time. We
also increased our staffing, with over 1,100 personnel to help
manage loan forgiveness and reviews.
Our Capital Access staff spent a great deal of time
preparing PPP lenders; and while 98 percent of lenders are
signed up for the forgiveness, we so far have only received
approximately 2 percent of the applications. While the low
number might be attributed to the potential for further changes
by Congress, SBA has been and remains open and ready for
business.
Thank you again, Chairman Crow and Ranking Member
Balderson, for inviting me to testify. I look forward to any
questions you may have.
Chairman CROW. Thank you, Mr. Manger.
I will begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes.
Mr. Manger, we sent this letter, me, along with 28 other
Members, sent the letter to the SBA on July 27th. Why haven't
we received a response to that letter?
Mr. MANGER. You know, I would have to look into exactly
that--I am not familiar with the specific letter--I am not
familiar with the specific letter you are referencing. I will
have to look into that and get back to you. We certainly have
always tried to be as responsive as possible to any inquiries
from Congress or from any other parties.
Chairman CROW. Will you commit to me today that you will
get us a response on that letter?
Mr. MANGER. Yes, I will.
Chairman CROW. Okay, thank you.
I would just like to follow up on one item that you
mentioned. And I was confused about the E-Tran comment, that
you said at no time has it failed or crashed, yet it wasn't
available, right? It went offline to lenders for periods of
time during the peak periods.
Can you explain to me or just clarify for me, when you say
it didn't fail or crash, why wasn't it available? Was there
something else going on there?
Mr. MANGER. Honestly, sir, it was available at all times.
There were periods where it did slow down, but at no time did
it absolutely cease. There was a period, April 10 into the
morning of April 12, where we put out a notice that we would be
taking the system down for some upgrades that I have referenced
in my opening statement. And so that was a planned takedown of
the system so we could add--we went from actually five servers
to eight servers. We made significant increases to the
technology in the E-Tran system during the rollout of the PPP
program. So----
But, to be clear, at no time did the program crash. You
know, a crash would be related to losing data or corruption in
the system. That simply did not occur, sir.
Chairman CROW. Okay. I think this is an area--I am not a
technical expert so I, you know, can't explain the differences
between those things, but I think this is an area for us to
flesh out a little bit more, because I have received a lot of
reports from business owners in my district of them in the
queue filling out their application and then the system just
going down and losing data and things of that nature.
So there is a disjoint here that I think would be worth for
us to follow up on and kind of square those reports that, you
know, many of us heard from our communities with what you were
seeing at the SBA. So we will follow up with you on that front
as well.
Mr. MANGER. Sure.
Chairman CROW. So, Mr. Manger, the second question or third
question I have is: Borrowers started reaching out to lenders
in June to start the forgiveness process. Why did it take the
SBA so long to put together a comprehensive forgiveness program
for PPP?
Mr. MANGER. Well, sir, we wanted to make sure that we were
weighing the responsibility, the fiscal responsibility that the
SBA has when we are talking about $525 billion, to make sure
that those businesses are, indeed, eligible and that, indeed,
the amount that we are paying out to the lender for the
forgiveness is the accurate amount.
So we had to go through quite a lot of review, and we did
this in consultation with Treasury, to make sure that we took
everything into consideration that should be addressed, to
ensure that when we do pay out the forgiveness to the lenders,
it is the proper amount.
Chairman CROW. Okay. And I certainly appreciate that fiscal
prudence. One of the tensions that existed here, however, was a
lot of these small businesses were literally--many of them are
literally applying for this program and taking the risk, not
even knowing what the criteria were going to be and whether
they would be eligible for it, but, you know, thinking that
there was a risk they would have to assume that debt in
advance, and that is a risk they took on.
So, given that, do you believe that there should be a
threshold or criteria established where loans should be
forgiven automatically?
Mr. MANGER. Sir, I know that there is some legislation that
is up here on the Hill that addresses that. I would say that is
for Congress to decide upon. We certainly stand ready to enact
anything that you all put forward. But at this point in time,
again, we wanted to make sure that we weighed our fiscal
responsibility to the taxpayer with, again, integrity of the
program. And so we have developed, you know, the forgiveness
platform that we have to ensure that.
Chairman CROW. And I will push back a little bit on that,
because we left it to you all to develop the criteria for
forgiveness. So I am asking you, you know, in your opinion as
one of the top SBA administrators, you know, running the
program, do you believe, which we have seen now and given the
uncertainty that many of those businesses had when they were
applying for the program, that for ease of use and for
predictability that we should establish criteria for automatic
forgiveness?
Mr. MANGER. Yeah. Sir, I will echo what Secretary Mnuchin
said 2 days ago when he was asked a similar question. I mean,
again, we put together a platform that we think has integrity
and maintains, again, the taxpayer's--our fiscal responsibility
to the taxpayer. We believe that we do not have the authority
to all of a sudden deem a certain threshold where there would
be a cutoff and that all those loans could be forgiven
automatically.
So, again, we believe that Congress has to act to come up
with a threshold if you would like us to do that.
Chairman CROW. Okay.
Mr. Balderson, you are recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. BALDERSON. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My first question, Mr. Manger, is, as you know, the SBA and
Treasury guidance has remained critical for small businesses
and lenders participating in PPP. Given that many small
businesses are in the middle of the loan forgiveness process
and given that we continue to hear that the process remains
complex, does the SBA anticipate updating and providing new
loan forgiveness guidance or FAQs on this matter?
Mr. MANGER. Yes. You know, we provided, as I said in my
opening statement, quite a lot of information in IFRs and
actually 30 FAQs that pertain to forgiveness. We have developed
two forms, the 3508 and the 3508EZ, for those businesses to use
something of a similar but a simpler form for applying for
forgiveness.
We have, as I said, conducted lender outreach to over
10,000 people on one call in the last couple of weeks alone.
And we will continue to do that, and we will continue to offer
as much guidance as possible to make it as easy as possible for
borrowers and lenders to go through the forgiveness process.
Mr. BALDERSON. Okay. Thank you for that answer.
And my next question was regarding the E-Tran system, and I
also had a question about that, but Mr. Chairman has addressed
that issue.
So I will go with, as the head of the Office of Capital
Access and Chief of the Staff on the SBA, what do you believe
are the biggest challenges when it comes to the PPP loan
forgiveness for a small business, for a lender, and for the
SBA?
Mr. MANGER. That is a very good question, sir. Obviously,
we need to make sure that what is being asked for is
legitimate. We want to make sure that that small business that
has come in for that loan is, in fact, an eligible small
business, given the parameters and guidance of the program.
So, again, we want to make sure that, you know, the
borrower provides the information that they need to provide to
the lender. It is then the lender that makes the decision on if
the forgiveness should be what is asked for, possibly higher,
possibly lower, but it is up to the lender to do that.
And then the lender submits that application after 60 days
or within 60 days to the SBA, and the SBA then has 90 days to
review what has been submitted to us. And, again, we will make
the decision as to what is the proper forgiveness amount and
then pay that out to the lender.
So it is a process that each party has to be involved with
to make sure that they are submitting the correct data so that
we can verify what is going to actually be paid out, based on,
again, the small business retaining their employees at the
level they had prior to the pandemic as well as any eligible,
you know, interest, mortgage payments, or utilities.
Mr. BALDERSON. Okay. From your perspective, what should
Congress concentrate on as we seek to reopen and improve this
process?
Mr. MANGER. Well, again, I know that Chairman Chabot has
language that is floating around Capitol Hill, and certainly I
think there are some very good thoughts in there. And we would
welcome, again, Congress helping to simplify the program even
further if they so choose, and then we would certainly enact
that as quickly as possible.
I mean, when you gave us the CARES program and the PPP and
specifically back in March, we really stood this program up in
6 days, which is really quite incredible, the fact that then
this program was able to make $525 billion available to U.S.
small businesses and not-for-profits.
Mr. BALDERSON. Thank you very much.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you.
Chairman CROW. The gentleman yields back.
I would now like to recognize the gentlelady from
Pennsylvania, Ms. Houlahan, for 5 minutes.
Ms. HOULAHAN. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much
for your testimony today.
I want to kind of continue along the lines that Chairman
Crow was asking you about, about the forgiveness that has been
ongoing thus far. I had the opportunity to talk to a lot of the
lenders in my community yesterday, who are really struggling
right now because they are trying to get things through the
pipeline in forgiveness, but are receiving a lot of error
messages that a lot of the data is wrong, that they are ending
up with a very, very small percent of what they submit being
accepted the first time around.
And they are really struggling with the technology, to be
honest, of how to reconcile what they have on file and dates
and those kind of things with what you are requiring them to
do. So let's put that over here.
They also are anticipating from Congress that we might do
something in the forgiveness area. And so in many cases, they
are counselling, and the CPAs are counselling, the borrowers to
just hold on and wait.
So we are creating this perfect storm where people can't
get through a pipeline right now at all. They are being kind of
coached and counseled to wait a little bit. And we are creating
a demand signal or a backlog possibly that will create this
tsunami, so to speak, of problems when and if we are able to
create some sort of forgiveness program.
I worry, because when we started the program, there was all
kinds of technical issues and all kinds of glitches in the
system. How are you preventing that from happening again when
and if we are able to come to agreement on forgiveness?
Mr. MANGER. No. Thank you very much, Congresswoman. Let me
just explain to you that the platform that we are using for the
forgiveness portion of the PPP program was actually a software
as a service that the agency has purchased specifically for
this purpose of forgiveness. So it is not actually the E-Tran
system that will be doing the forgiveness process.
We actually were able to retain an excellent, again,
software as a service platform, a COTS platform, that we, you
know, looked at, and it has been used by many lenders in this
country as the forgiveness platform that they use.
And so we have adopted that and worked very diligently with
that team from that contractor to, again, modify what they had
for our program. And it is a cloud-based program, so there are
no capacity issues.
Certainly, I am now hearing from you that there are some
problems of inputting some information. I will go back and take
a look at that, talk to the contractor about what may be
happening there.
But the system is a robust system that, again, as I said,
has been used by many banks here in the country, and we have
brought that on as a software as a service platform
specifically for the forgiveness process.
Ms. HOULAHAN. So I would like to provide you with some of
that data, because from very small lenders to very large
lenders, they all had experienced in my community the same
problems in trying to push through forgiveness applications for
right now in this very moment.
And I just wanted to make sure I reiterated a question,
with making sure that you felt as though you had enough
resources for oversight and fraud detection, especially if
there is a streamlined forgiveness for borrowers under
$150,000.
Do you feel as though you have a good enough process to
protect and prevent against fraud?
Mr. MANGER. Yeah. Let me just tell you a little bit about
what we have done in our process here. We have brought on
actually several contractors to help us. We have developed an
automated tool that all loans will be run through. That
verifies data that is publicly available through LexisNexis.
That is the first stage.
Then, when we see how the loan is doing after that, it will
come to folks for manual review. I mentioned that we have
brought on a total of 1,100 new folks to help do the manual
reviews of the loans, and that is using contractors as well as
SBA staff.
So we have developed a very robust platform. We are using,
again, several contractors. In fact, we even have another
contractor that we brought on who is very well-known who will
be doing quality assurance of the whole platform and seeing
that from, you know, a 60,000-foot level, to make sure that
what we are doing is, in fact, significant and appropriate.
But we have layers that we have put into place to make sure
that we will properly review these loans, properly provide the
capital for the forgiveness.
And so I think we have a very robust system that we have
developed, again, working with top contractors as well as SBA
staff to have that fully developed.
Ms. HOULAHAN. Thank you. I will yield back, but I do look
forward to connecting with you to give you some very specific
examples of the issues that we are struggling with. So thank
you.
I yield back, Mr. Chair.
Mr. MANGER. Thank you.
Chairman CROW. The gentlelady yields back.
I would now like to recognize the gentleman from Tennessee,
Mr. Burchett, for 5 minutes.
Mr. BURCHETT. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate it. And
I want to make sure. How do you pronounce your name? Is it
Manger?
Mr. MANGER. Manger, yes.
Mr. BURCHETT. Manger. All right, cool. Thank you for being
here, brother. Can you describe, you know, those reports that
you all are receiving in more detail, and how many of those
have you received thus far?
Mr. MANGER. I am sorry, Congressman. Which reports are you
referring to?
Mr. BURCHETT. The loan reports. Well, in your testimony you
said: ``Regardless of their value, SBA is reviewing loans when
it receives reports that specific loans or borrowers do not
meet program requirements or otherwise may be ineligible.''
Mr. MANGER. Oh, yes. We have received quite a few reports.
And if you add up all the loans that then have been, you know,
identified as having some indicia of a problem with program
compliance, you know, it is in the, you know, tens of thousands
of loans.
But we are obviously tracking that, and that not a static
number. It is a dynamic number. Certainly, as we are made aware
of any, again, reports of issues with certain loans, we then
look into that and we make sure that we are addressing that.
Mr. BURCHETT. Okay. We have heard from several small
businesses and lenders that the PPP loan forgiveness process
remains complicated. And I know we are all trying to make
improvements, but what changes would you recommend to Congress
as it pertains to PPP loan forgiveness?
Mr. MANGER. Well, again, sir, you know, we have tried to
make the process as simple as possible, again, weighing our
fiscal responsibility and duty to the taxpayer to make sure
that any time we are paying out funds for forgiveness, they are
legitimate, accurate funds and that the program has integrity.
So that is what we have been doing.
Mr. BURCHETT. I appreciate that, but what I would just like
to know is, what would you recommend we do to make it better?
Mr. MANGER. Well, again, you know, I know Congressman
Chabot has some language that says that, you know, on his bill,
talking about having a threshold below which the review process
would really be just basically a certification on the part of
the small business. Certainly, we would be willing to take a
look at that, and if that becomes law, that is what we will
implement right away.
Mr. BURCHETT. Well, just pretend it is just me and you
talking in an off-the-record conversation brother. I don't need
all this Washington talk. I just want to know what the heck we
can do to make it better. And I think you have expressed that,
but you really haven't.
Mr. MANGER. No, I understand, Congressman. Again, we just
want to make sure that whatever we do, we are being, obviously,
responsible to the taxpayer. These are taxpayer dollars that we
will be paying out to these lenders for the borrowers, and we
want to make sure that it is done with integrity and
legitimacy.
But we will do, again, whatever we can to make it as easy
and simple as possible.
Mr. BURCHETT. I dig all that. But what I am worried about
is we get 6 months out and we have really messed it up, because
you all are afraid to tell us, because some powerful lawmaker
has tried to put something on the books that looks good, but
we, being neophytes, that we wouldn't understand what the heck
we were doing and we just created a problem that the grifters
and everybody else can advance their cause on.
And I would appreciate letting us know, as we say in east
Tennessee, closing the barn door before the cows got out.
Mr. MANGER. Congressman, I look forward to working very,
very closely with you.
Mr. BURCHETT. All right. You are very polished, sir. I
appreciate that. You ought to be on TV or something, I don't
know.
Well, tell me about the partnership you all have--and just
dadgum, just tell me about the partnership, I don't need the
polished answer, all right?--with the Department of Treasury
that you all developed over the--you know, within this working
relationship. How will that help in the forgiveness process?
Mr. MANGER. Well, we have worked very closely since
inception of the program with Treasury to ensure that it was
developed properly and with as many safeguards as possible. And
so we have developed an excellent working relationship with
Treasury. We speak, you know, several times a day, in fact. And
that has worked very well.
They have given us suggestions for the forgiveness. We have
worked with them and made our own suggestions. And I think we
have actually come up with a very good process.
We probably need to do a little more education on the side
of educating the borrowers and the lenders to make sure they
know exactly how to go about seeking the forgiveness.
Mr. BURCHETT. Can you do that in a noncomplicated manner?
Mr. MANGER. Sir, I pledge to you we will try and be as
simplified as possible to make sure that----
Mr. BURCHETT. I appreciate that.
Mr. MANGER.--everybody can take advantage of this in the
easiest way possible.
Mr. BURCHETT. Brother, next time I get in trouble with my
wife, I would appreciate you just giving me your cell phone
number. I am just going to hand it over to you and you smooth
that road out for me, all right?
Mr. MANGER. Thank you, sir. I appreciate that.
Mr. BURCHETT. Thank you, brother.
And my wife watches these hearings and I haven't done
anything to get myself in trouble with her. I just want you to
know that.
Mr. MANGER. No. And I remember, Congressman, the first time
you introduced yourself, my name is Burchett, birch like the
tree and et like I just ate my breakfast. So anyway, I
appreciate that.
Mr. BURCHETT. Thank you, brother.
Chairman CROW. Does the gentleman yield back?
Mr. BURCHETT. I do, Mr. Chair.
Chairman CROW. All right. Thank you, Mr. Burchett.
And notwithstanding your good faith efforts to try to get
an answer to our question, I appreciate you taking another cut
at it.
And at some point, I would like Mr. Manger to actually help
us help you. That is the point of this question is to have a
collaborative relationship so that we can make better law and
policy here so you can implement it. But if you are not going
to give us your thoughts on how we improve the forgiveness
process, it makes it much harder for us to do that.
I would now like to recognize the gentlelady from Kansas,
Ms. Davids, for 5 minutes.
Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you, Mr. Chair. And thanks to you and to
Ranking Member Balderson for holding this important hearing
today.
The Paycheck Protection Program has certainly been a vital
lifeline for so many businesses in the Kansas Third District
during the pandemic, and the possibility of loan forgiveness is
certainly an important component of that.
We know that the pandemic is far from over, and that even
as our economy has started to reopen there are a lot of small
businesses in Kansas that are still struggling to open their
doors, which is why----
Chairman CROW. Ms. Davids, we can't hear you on the audio.
You might want to try--all right one moment while we work
through this with Ms. Davids. Ms. Davids, we couldn't hear your
question. Your audio has cut out.
Well, while we work out her audio, let's move on to the
next member.
I would now like to recognize the gentleman from
Pennsylvania, Dr. Joyce, for 5 minutes.
Mr. JOYCE. Thank you, Chairman, and thank you, Ranking
Member Balderson, for organizing this today.
Mr. Manger, thanks for joining us. I think this is very
important, and I actually think it is a very critical time. On
behalf of my district, I am going to offer thanks to you and
your office for your hard work to iron out what we all know
were initial glitches in the E-Tran system.
Since PPP opened, my home State of Pennsylvania has
received more than 170,000 loans, which brought in more than
$20 billion for hardworking small business owners, their
employees, and particularly their families.
I recently visited Boyer's Orchard in New Paris, which is
Bedford County, Pennsylvania, to purchase some of their
incredible apples. And while I was there, I met with the Boyer
family, Penn State alumni who used the PPP to make ends meet.
In discussions with them, they described the program as, quote,
``a godsend.''
However, we all recognize in this room that many small
businesses are still struggling to stay afloat. And, as
mentioned, there is more than $130 billion remaining in the
Paycheck Protection Program that concluded, as you pointed out,
in early August.
Our Ranking Member, Mr. Chabot, has introduced legislation
to reopen this much-needed PPP access and allow these
desperately needed funds to be expended and pursued for the
small businesses to once again be the backbone of our
community, which we all know they are.
Mr. Manger, my question is really simple. If Congress were
to reauthorize the Paycheck Protection Program, as I and my
colleagues are fighting tirelessly to do so, how quickly could
SBA begin processing the new applications?
Mr. MANGER. Sir, it would be very simple. Since the program
and the platform has already been built, it would really be as
easy as just flipping a switch and turning E-Tran back on.
So it would be done probably within a matter of a day,
quite honestly. We would obviously--you know, as you said, the
money has been put aside, so it would be really very simple for
the agency to turn the electronic transmission system back on.
Mr. JOYCE. So by flipping that switch, which you so
eloquently state, and in one day allowing those resources to be
available, how quickly could the money get into the hands of
the small businesses?
Mr. MANGER. Well, sir, that is, again, up to the lenders
for making the disbursement. We provide a loan number to the
lender. They are making the loans on a delegated basis on
behalf of the agency. So, again, the disbursements would happen
as quickly as the bank is able to get that money out the door.
You know, a matter of days, probably.
Mr. JOYCE. And finally, do you feel that the extension of
the PPP is part of your job at SBA in getting us through this
pandemic?
Mr. MANGER. Sir, I think the numbers speak for themselves,
the fact that we have been able to help over 5 million
businesses and not-for-profits with, again, over $525 billion.
And when you see the number of lenders that joined with us to
make the program available to U.S. small businesses, I mean,
they were doing their patriotic duty, coming to the rescue and
making sure that they could get money to these small
businesses.
And we want to completely support that. And if you
authorize us to reopen a platform, we will do that, as I said,
very quickly. We will flip that switch, and we will make sure
that the money flows again out to the small businesses.
Mr. JOYCE. Thank you for your concise answers, and I
conclude by encouraging all of my colleagues, bipartisan, to
work together to allow for an extension of the PPP. Thank you
for being here today.
And I yield the remainder of my time.
Mr. MANGER. Thank you, sir.
Chairman CROW. Thank you. The gentleman yields.
We are going to go back to the gentlelady from Kansas, Ms.
Davids, and see if she has worked out the audio on her end. Ms.
Davids, are you on?
Ms. DAVIDS. Yes, Chairman. Can you hear me?
Chairman CROW. We can hear you. All right. The gentlelady
has 5 minutes.
Ms. DAVIDS. Perfect. Thank you so much. And thank you, Mr.
Ranking Member Balderson, for holding this hearing today.
So I do want to get into the question that I wanted to ask,
and just in case we have any technical difficulties again. You
know, the Paycheck Protection Program has obviously been a
vital lifeline for so many businesses in the Kansas Third and
across Kansas.
And I just want to get into the balance that we have been
talking about and hearing about when it comes to balancing
accountability with the need to make the process simple and
effective and available for our smallest borrowers, who have
the fewest financial administrative resources.
So, Mr. Manger, can you talk to us about the Government
Accountability Office report that came out this week that cited
a much longer standard application time than the SBA had
previously cited? It seems that there is a discrepancy there,
and I would welcome your explanation for the discrepancy for
both the standard form and the EZ form.
Mr. MANGER. Yeah. I have to admit that I have not seen the
GAO report that you are referring to specifically, but, again,
we made our best estimate as to what it would take, again, to
completely fill out both the 3508 and the 3508EZ forms.
And, again, we had the first--the 3508 form was launched on
May 15, and then the EZ platform form was launched on June 17,
again. And we did that so that we could simplify the process,
especially for sole proprietors, independent contractors and,
you know, self-employed.
So I think, again, the process has been simplified to a
great extent and, again, to balance, again, the integrity of
the program and to ensure, you know, the fiscal responsibility
to the taxpayer. And, again, we did our best estimate of what
that time would take to properly fill out the form and complete
that and make sure that all of the necessary documents are
available for review.
And, again, the lender makes their decision and then it
comes to us for our decision. But, again, we tried to make it
as simple as possible, maintaining, again, integrity of the
system, fiscal responsibility to the taxpayer, and, again, our
best estimate of what that time would take to get that done.
Ms. DAVIDS. So can you talk to us a little bit about the--
you know, when we talk about the challenges or risks, and
certainly you have brought up the risks to the--you know, how
we allocate and use and make use of the taxpayer funds.
Can you talk to us a little bit about the risks that you
are concerned about through the further simplification of this
process? Because that is something that you have brought up
multiple times during this conversation is the stewardship, you
know, the fiduciary responsibility you have to the taxpayer.
Can you talk to us about what risks you all are thinking about
and trying to mitigate?
Mr. MANGER. Sure. Well, let me just go back and briefly
describe how this program was structured. As you know, the
borrower came in and basically on a----
Ms. DAVIDS. I am sorry. You don't have to re-explain the
structure of the program. I have been in this hearing and
paying very close attention to how things are going. I am just
more concerned about which--if you could tell us the specific
risks that you are trying to mitigate.
Mr. MANGER. Well, again, I would like to just say, though,
that, again, the borrower was certifying to the information
that was being put into the application. The lender was not,
you know, going back and checking and verifying that
information. The lender was merely, on a delegated basis, as I
said previously, making these loans so that, again, we could
get capital out to these small businesses that were in dire
need.
So it is very different than our regular program. For that
reason, we need to make sure that we are--that the small
business that actually applied for the loan and received a loan
is, in fact, eligible, that there is not any indicia of any
issues that could be revolving around, again, the program
requirements, that they have fulfilled the program requirements
as spelled out in the IFRs.
And, again, it is just the necessity to ensure that
everything was followed properly so that we can, in fact,
provide the capital to the lender when that forgiveness
application is submitted to us.
Ms. DAVIDS. Thank you. And I see I am short on time here,
so my office will follow up with you about the discrepancy
between the GAO report. And I appreciate your testimony today.
And I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman CROW. The gentlelady yields back.
I would now like to recognize the gentleman from Oklahoma,
Mr. Hern, for 5 minutes.
Mr. HERN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member
Balderson. It is great to be here. Mr. Manger, thanks for being
here again.
As a small business owner for over 35 years and the Ranking
Member of the Small Business Committee on Economic Growth, Tax
and Capital Access, I understand the need for businesses to
obtain the adequate funding to support their operations,
especially during these unprecedented times.
One way in which we have been able to provide funding is
through the PPP. Through this program, the SBA worked quickly
to provide aid to businesses across the country, and I
appreciate your efforts in the speedy implementation. Remind us
all the PPP program saved approximately 51 million American
jobs. We know now that it may be even higher than that.
At the same time, our bankers across the country played a
crucial role in the PPP implementation, putting in countless
hours to provide local business owners with loans. Without the
hard work of our banking industry, the PPP would not have been
a success, as we have seen today, and I commend them for their
efforts.
However, the urgency to roll out PPP also caused the SBA to
overlook certain obstacles for lenders, such as the outdated
loan processing system known as E-Tran. Unfortunately, this
system could not sustain the incredible influx of PPP loan
applications and which caused burdensome tech-related issues
for our many lenders, who were working overtime to help
borrowers obtain funding.
As the founder of a small community bank, I understand how
these obstacles can impact lending productivity. This was a
waste of viable business hours, and we must do better to help
our lenders navigate the PPP-related portals.
Additionally, we need to provide more comprehensive
guidance to explain how certain processes work, especially with
loan forgiveness for both borrowers and lenders. Right now,
there is an ambiguity and a confusion surrounding loan
forgiveness, which has caused banks to advocate for automatic
forgiveness for certain thresholds in order to mitigate the
lack of clarity about this process.
I for one am concerned about automatic forgiveness without
oversight. I think there is a responsibility that this
committee and all of us in Congress have to have oversight to
make sure there is no fraud. So we have to get this figured out
sooner rather than later.
Currently, many lenders are left in the dark on how loan
forgiveness will be rolled out, both on the technology side and
the policy side, which brings me to my first question.
When the PPP was first rolled out, New Interim Final Rules
were frequently posted on SBA's website. This created confusion
for both borrowers and lenders, since rules were constantly
changing. Because of this, we advocated for SBA to release a
comprehensive guide--I am sorry. We advocated for you to do
this on the PPP, to create transparency and help individuals
navigate the program.
So my question is: Does the SBA have any plans to provide a
comprehensive guide to help lenders navigate the loan
forgiveness program process, including the new online portal?
Mr. MANGER. Congressman, we can certainly take a look at
that. What we have done specifically related to forgiveness is
we released three IFRs and, again, detailed FAQs. I believe
there were 30 in all that specifically addressed the loan
forgiveness process. And we did that because, again, they are
frequently asked questions, so we wanted to try and capture
what, again, the borrower and the lender really needed to
understand the forgiveness process.
So we have done that thus far, and we are obviously trying
to do more. And we can certainly take a look at, you know, a
document such as you have just expressed here.
But at this point, again, we believe the IFRs and the FAQs
and the forms and our outreach that we have been conducting has
been very, very helpful. And, you know, certainly we can always
do more, but we can take a look at anything else you would like
us to.
Mr. HERN. Well, I think, in talking to many bankers
certainly across my district and the State, their concern is
not knowing the rules until after they are required to do
something. As an example, we relied heavily, almost exclusively
on our community banks--certainly, they touch all of our small
businesses across America--in addition to our big lenders.
But what we also know is they had to use their own loan
documents, which required at that time a 6-month deferral until
the first payment, which are coming due. And now they have a
loan forgiveness document that says it is not until 10 months
after the SBA gives guidance on forgiveness.
So they have to go back and touch all of their documents
now to either put an addendum, because if they don't they are
out of compliance with the Office of the Comptroller of the
Currency or the other State and Federal regulators, which is
creating a real burden and a financial cost to them that there
is no additional fees for, or there are none.
And so this is important for the banks to be able to touch
these documents one time, so that we can alert our borrowers to
if there is going to be any forgiveness at all. But we need to
do this as a respect to the people that we put the burden on to
go loan this money to the individual businesses so that they
could keep the 51 million Americans employed.
So, with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back, and thank you so
much for having this hearing.
Chairman CROW. Thank you, Mr. Hern. I appreciate your
questions. The gentleman yields back.
I am going to just do a second round. I don't think there
are many members with additional questions, but I will start
with myself, and if others have questions we will go to those.
A few other items I wanted to cover, Mr. Manger. One is--
and I think you touched on this one earlier--the new platform
for the forgiveness system. That is the private software system
that is cloud-based. Is that accurate?
Mr. MANGER. That is correct. It was a, you know, off-the-
shelf platform that we identified in Capital Access that we
could use that is used by many lenders in their own, you know,
work, and that we could adopt that as a software as a service
platform specifically for the forgiveness portion of the PPP.
And that has been very effective, and the team has done a great
job working with us to adjust it so that it can be seamlessly
integrated with the PPP.
Chairman CROW. So to date, it seems to be running smoothly,
from your perspective? You are not seeing any bugs or anything?
Mr. MANGER. We have not seen any problems. And, in fact, as
I mentioned early on, 98 percent--sorry, 98 percent of the
lenders have already signed up onto that platform. So we have
had, you know, again, almost 100 percent have already signed up
onto that platform.
Chairman CROW. Okay. Of the 5,000-plus, you mean?
Mr. MANGER. Of the almost 5,500 lenders, we have 98 percent
that have signed up on the platform, yes.
Chairman CROW. Okay. So I think it launched in mid-August,
right? That is----
Mr. MANGER. It was launched August 10.
Chairman CROW. August 10, okay. How many forgiveness
applications have you received since----
Mr. MANGER. So to date, we are at about 96,000.
Chairman CROW. Okay.
Mr. MANGER. Just over 96,000.
Chairman CROW. And has the SBA declined any of those
applications?
Mr. MANGER. No, not at this point. We are in the process of
the review stage. So we have not declined any at this point.
Chairman CROW. So 96,000 received. How many have been
approved, roughly?
Mr. MANGER. At this point, we are still going through the
review process, and none of those have been, you know, approved
fully.
Chairman CROW. Can you just give us a sense as to what you
expect the timeframe to be from the acceptance of a forgiveness
application to when you make a determination on an application?
Mr. MANGER. Sure. Sure. As you know, again, the lender
first receives the forgiveness request from the borrower. The
lender at that point has 60 days with which to make their
decision. They have to review the documents in-house. And then
they come to the SBA and say, we are requesting this of the
SBA, to remit this amount to us, the lender, for the
forgiveness of this small business borrower.
At that point, when they submit the request to us, the SBA
has 90 days in which to review that and make a decision on the
forgiveness. So we have up to 90 days to make that decision,
sir.
Chairman CROW. Okay. And I don't think I need to encourage
you to obviously compress that timeline, because if Congress is
able to work out a deal for extension or a second round,
obviously, people aren't going to go for that unless they
already have the determination in hand from their prior round.
So I think it will just set everyone up for better success
here, and I appreciate your efforts in that regard.
One of the things, the last question is kind of a customer
service issue that we have heard about, and that is--and this
is something that I think we can all sympathize with. When you
call like an insurance company or something and you go through
the phone tree, and then every time they ask you for the same
information, right? And you are like, well, isn't anyone
capturing this information? The same thing seems to be
happening here, where people are going into the forgiveness
portal, have to reenter all the information that they entered
when they first applied for the loan.
So isn't there a way to migrate that data to the new portal
so that it is already there, and we can save folks time and
make it easier for them?
Mr. MANGER. Well, sir, I understand your point. The thing
is, what was captured initially in the two-page application
from a borrower with the self-certifications tells at the time,
you know, what they had on board for employees, for example.
The fact is, over the covered period, that number may have
changed. And we can only give----
Chairman CROW. I guess I am not asking for that
information. I mean, I understand that some information will
change----
Mr. MANGER. Yeah.
Chairman CROW.--and the conditions will be different, and
there will be new information that is necessary for forgiveness
that didn't apply for the original loan.
But some of the basic information, right, about the company
and things like that, like, can't we just auto-populate that
into the new system? I am just always looking for ways to make
this easier for the businesses.
Mr. MANGER. No, and I appreciate that. We can certainly--I
will take that back and talk to the IT folks and see again
about integrating the information that came into E-Tran with
the information that is being captured on the SaaS platform.
Chairman CROW. I appreciate that. Thank you.
Now I would like to go back and recognize the gentleman
from Oklahoma for an additional 5 minutes. Mr. Hern.
Mr. HERN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I really appreciate
those comments you made there too because, as we are all
hearing from our businesses, it is about simplicity in the time
of trying to figure out how to keep people employed.
Mr. Manger, currently under the PPP, if a change of
borrower occurs, it is an automatic default unless the borrower
obtains a written waiver from the lender. As you know, the 7(a)
program requires lenders to get SBA consent for a borrower
change of control. And if you are selling a business or a
transition of ownership, we have an issue here that we need to
get clarified and maybe bring some consistency between the two
programs.
Because of some preexisting 7(a) rules applied to the PPP,
as long as they are consistent, will PPP borrowers need to get
SBA consent for a change of borrower?
Mr. MANGER. So, Congressman, I appreciate that question
very much. And, in fact, I was on the phone last night with one
of my colleagues discussing just that. I have actually been on
a phone call with Congressman Balderson where he also asked the
question about change of ownership for businesses that
currently have a PPP loan.
We are working through that, and we are coming up with
something I think that will make it much easier, again, for a
business with a PPP loan to be able to have a change of
ownership.
So we are very near completion on that as we speak. As I
said, I was on the phone last night discussing that with one of
my colleagues.
Mr. HERN. Have you thought through the process or
additionally--and I will go back to what the Chairman said,
communication is paramount here, it is critical--have you
thought how you would communicate to both lenders and borrowers
this change this consistency?
Mr. MANGER. We will certainly work with our office of
communications and public liaison. We will certainly reach out
to the banking trade associations. And we will again try to get
out the information out on our website and all the other means
possible to make sure that they are aware of how they can make
a change of ownership.
Mr. HERN. Mr. Manger, I want you to know from me personally
as a small-business owner for years, that we appreciate and
whether you are a Democrat or a Republican on this committee,
we have heard from borrowers, all over this country and they
appreciate it. And while there has been a lot of uncertainty in
how the process works, they appreciate.
This program has saved thousands, hundreds of thousands of
mom and pop businesses that may have been handed down by
generations, people who took the risk, borrowed capital,
started a business that without this program would have gone
bankrupt and many still will just because of the demand for
their product.
And without the SBA utilizing the banking system, other
financial systems to get these moneys out, this could have been
a catastrophic event. It was already catastrophic enough for
our economy, but because of what you did, you allowed the
people to keep all of our Americans for the most part employed
where you could.
And we greatly appreciate all of the work for you and your
teams consistently coming over here. We want to make sure that
message gets back to Administrator Carranza as well Secretary
Mnuchin. He has been here and you guys have been very open to
come in and testifying before us. And we greatly appreciate you
taking our questions and going back to work fervently on
solutions.
So thank you so much for being here.
Mr. MANGER. Thank you, Congressman very much. I appreciate
that.
Mr. HERN. I yield back Mr. Chairman.
Mr. CROW. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. I would
like to recognize the Ranking Member Mr. Balderson for 5
minutes.
Mr. BALDERSON. Mr. Manger, I wasn't going to go further,
but since you brought my name up and you brought that phone
call up, when are you thinking about having release for this
guidance because about our phone call was back in July?
Mr. MANGER. I understand, sir.
Mr. BALDERSON. At the end of July. And I do have several
too actually.
Mr. MANGER. I was actually hoping, Congressman, that I
would be able to have it here this morning. Unfortunately as I
was on the phone last night about it, but it is going to be
imminent, imminent.
Mr. BALDERSON. Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. CROW. The gentleman yields back. So are there any other
members with additional questions? Online? I am not seeing any.
Okay. So I want to thank Mr. Manger for your testimony
today on the PPP program, and the data inaccuracies, and
discussing the various issues around loan forgiveness.
First off, I do want to echo my colleagues' sentiments and
reiterate what I said in the beginning, I recognize this was a
very heavily lift. There was no precedence for this. You were
having to build the airplane inflight and you turned around
very quickly.
And I do appreciate the hard work and the efforts of you
and your team in doing that, because it did make a difference,
a very big difference.
And in Colorado alone our estimates are that the PPP
program helped preserve over a half million jobs. So it
certainly made a difference.
With that said, our job is not to pat each other on the
back. Our job is to figure out how we can make things better
and improve. And there is always improvements. And of course we
serve as the direct conduit from our constituents our
businesses to the SBA. And that is why we press you on these
things, because there are ways to improve it and make it better
and we want to work with you to do so.
I also want to reiterate that it has been, I think, over
131 days since the House passed The HEROES Act, which provided
an extension of these value programs and money to address the
ongoing concerns of businesses.
And I do recognize and appreciate Mr. Chabot's efforts to
introduce a bill. I know my colleagues on the other side have
issues with the HEROES Act, and we obviously have issues with
Mr. Chabot's bill. There has got to be a solution where we can
all get behind and figure out that everyone can live with where
we can do this.
So I am going to continue to work with my friends on the
other side of the aisle here to figure this out and push hard
because we obviously owe that to the American people and to the
businesses that are struggling it to survive. And that is what
they expect of all of us. So we will at this point to work
hashed to figure out that solution.
So with that, I think we just have the technicalities left.
So I would ask unanimous consent that Members have 5
legislative days to submit statements and supporting materials
for the record.
Without objection, so ordered.
And if there is no further business to come before the
committee, we are adjourned.
Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 11:05 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[Mr. William Manger did not submit his Responses to
Questions in a timely manner.]
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