[House Hearing, 116 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
SCALING UP APPRENTICESHIPS:
BUILDING ON THE SUCCESS OF INTERNATIONAL
INTERNATIONAL APPRENTICESHIP MODELS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE INVESTMENT
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION
AND LABOR
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, JULY 16, 2019
__________
Serial No. 116-35
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and Labor
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: www.govinfo.gov
or
Committee address: https://edlabor.house.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
37-321 PDF WASHINGTON : 2021
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND LABOR
ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, Virginia, Chairman
Susan A. Davis, California Virginia Foxx, North Carolina,
Raul M. Grijalva, Arizona Ranking Member
Joe Courtney, Connecticut David P. Roe, Tennessee
Marcia L. Fudge, Ohio Glenn Thompson, Pennsylvania
Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, Tim Walberg, Michigan
Northern Mariana Islands Brett Guthrie, Kentucky
Frederica S. Wilson, Florida Bradley Byrne, Alabama
Suzanne Bonamici, Oregon Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin
Mark Takano, California Elise M. Stefanik, New York
Alma S. Adams, North Carolina Rick W. Allen, Georgia
Mark DeSaulnier, California Lloyd Smucker, Pennsylvania
Donald Norcross, New Jersey Jim Banks, Indiana
Pramila Jayapal, Washington Mark Walker, North Carolina
Joseph D. Morelle, New York James Comer, Kentucky
Susan Wild, Pennsylvania Ben Cline, Virginia
Josh Harder, California Russ Fulcher, Idaho
Lucy McBath, Georgia Van Taylor, Texas
Kim Schrier, Washington Steve Watkins, Kansas
Lauren Underwood, Illinois Ron Wright, Texas
Jahana Hayes, Connecticut Daniel Meuser, Pennsylvania
Donna E. Shalala, Florida William R. Timmons, IV, South
Andy Levin, Michigan* Carolina
Ilhan Omar, Minnesota Dusty Johnson, South Dakota
David J. Trone, Maryland Fred Keller, Pennsylvania
Haley M. Stevens, Michigan
Susie Lee, Nevada
Lori Trahan, Massachusetts
Joaquin Castro, Texas
* Vice-Chair
Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director
Brandon Renz, Minority Staff Director
------
SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE INVESTMENT
SUSAN A. DAVIS, California, Chairwoman
Joe Courtney, Connecticut Lloyd Smucker, Pennsylvania,
Mark Takano, California Ranking Member
Pramila Jayapal, Washington Brett Guthrie, Kentucky
Josh Harder, California Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin
Andy Levin, Michigan Elise Stefanik, New York
Ilhan Omar, Minnesota Jim Banks, Indiana
David Trone, Maryland Mark Walker, North Carolina
Susie Lee, Nevada James Comer, Kentucky
Lori Trahan, Massachusetts Ben Cline, Virginia
Joaquin Castro, Texas Russ Fulcher, Idaho
Raul M. Grijalva, Arizona Steve C. Watkins, Jr., Kansas
Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, Dan Meuser, Pennsylvania
Northern Mariana Islands William R. Timmons, IV, South
Suzanne Bonamici, Oregon Carolina
Alma S. Adams, North Carolina
Donald Norcross, New Jersey
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on July 16, 2019.................................... 1
Statement of Members:
Davis, Hon. Susan A., Chairwoman, Subcommittee on Higher
Education and Workforce Investment......................... 1
Prepared statement of.................................... 3
Smucker, Hon. Lloyd, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Higher
Education and Workforce Investment......................... 4
Prepared statement of.................................... 5
Statement of Witnesses:
Annen, Dr. Silvia, Ph.D., Senior Researcher, Federal
Institute for Vocational Education and Training, Bonn,
Germany.................................................... 13
Prepared statement of.................................... 16
Bradley, Mr. Tim, Minister Counsellor for Industry, Science,
and Education, Embassy of Australia........................ 7
Prepared statement of.................................... 10
Marti, Dr. Simon, Ph.D., Head of Office, Swisscore, Brussels,
Belgium.................................................... 23
Prepared statement of.................................... 25
Additional Submissions:
Mr. Bradley:
Slides: Australian Apprenticeships....................... 76
Chart: Apprentices and Trainee 2018-December Quarter..... 80
Link: Strengthening Skills............................... 90
Guthrie, Hon. Brett, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Kentucky:
Prepared statement from the American of Institute
Certified Public Accountants........................... 91
Levin, Hon. Andy, a Representative in Congress from the State
of Michigan:
Article: U.S. Needs More Tradespeople.................... 50
Questions submitted for the record by:
Chairwoman Davis
Foxx, Hon. Virginia, a Representative in Congress from
the State of North Carolina
Sablan, Hon. Gregorio Kilili Camacho, a Representative in
Congress from the Northern Mariana Islands
Responses to questions submitted for the record by:
Dr. Annen................................................ 100
Mr. Bradley.............................................. 112
Dr. Marti................................................ 117
SCALING UP APPRENTICESHIPS: BUILDING
ON THE SUCCESS OF INTERNATIONAL
APPRENTICESHIP MODELS
----------
Tuesday, July 16, 2019
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Higher Education
and Workforce Investment,
Committee on Education and Labor,
Washington, D.C.
----------
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:16 a.m., in
Room 2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Susan Davis
(Chairwoman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Representatives Davis, Courtney, Takano, Jayapal,
Harder, Levin, Trone, Bonamici, Adams, Norcross, Scott (ex
officio), Smucker, Guthrie, Grothman, Stefanik, Walker, Cline,
Watkins, Meuser, Timmons, and Foxx (ex officio).
Also Present: Representatives Wild and Keller.
Staff Present: Tylease Alli, Chief Clerk; Ilana Brunner,
General Counsel; Emma Eatman, Press Assistant; Ariel Jona,
Staff Assistant; Stephanie Lalle, Deputy Communications
Director; Jaria Martin, Clerk/Assistant to the Staff Director;
Katie McClelland, Professional Staff; Richard Miller, Director
of Labor Policy; Max Moore, Office Aide; Udochi Onwubiko, Labor
Policy Counsel; Veronique Pluviose, Staff Director; Banyon
Vassar, Deputy Director of Information Technology; Rolie
Adrienne Webb, Education Policy Fellow; Courtney Butcher,
Minority Director of Coalitions and Members Services; Cate
Dillon, Minority Staff Assistant; Bridget Handy, Minority
Communications Assistant; Dean Johnson, Minority Staff
Assistant; Amy Raaf Jones, Minority Director of Education and
Human Resources Policy; Hannah Matesic, Minority Director of
Operations; Jake Middlebrooks, Minority Professional Staff
Member; Carlton Norwood, Minority Press Secretary; Brandon
Renz, Minority Staff Director; Chance Russell, Minority
Legislative Assistant; Mandy Schaumburg, Minority Chief Counsel
and Deputy Director of Education Policy; Brad Thomas, Minority
Senior Education Policy Advisor.
Chairwoman Davis. Good morning. The Subcommittee on Higher
Education and Workforce Investment will come to order.
I note that a quorum is present. I note for the
subcommittee that Representative Susan Wild of Pennsylvania
will be permitted to participate in today's hearing, with the
understanding that her questions will come only after all
Members of the Subcommittee on Higher Education and Workforce
Investment on both sides of the aisle who are present have an
opportunity to question the witnesses.
The subcommittee is meeting today to hear testimony on
``Scaling Up Apprenticeships: Building on the Success of
International Apprenticeship Models.''
Pursuant to Committee Rule 7(c), opening statements are
limited to the Chair and the Ranking Member, and this allows us
to hear from our witnesses sooner and provides all Members with
adequate time to ask questions.
I recognize myself now for the purpose of making an opening
statement.
Before I begin, I would like to thank our distinguished
witnesses for traveling across the globe to testify today. We
are delighted to have you. The committee appreciates the time
you have taken to prepare your testimony and inform us of the
structure and outcomes in your respective apprenticeship
systems.
Today, we look forward to learning more about the
apprenticeship systems of Australia, Germany, and Switzerland,
including how these systems strike a balance between strong
government oversight and the flexibility to meet the needs of
employers and the labor market through innovation. We hope to
use what we learn today to strengthen apprenticeship
opportunities here in the United States.
A U.S. registered apprenticeship program has long provided
Americans the opportunity to learn valuable on-the-job skills
and earn a stackable and nationally recognized credential that
serves as a pathway to the middle class. It is my hope that we
can work together on a bipartisan basis to help scale this
model.
For years, the Australian, German, and Swiss apprenticeship
systems have been the gold standard of apprenticeship programs
around the world. And they are not only highly popular and
well-supported, but they also provide nationally recognized and
portable credentials valued by apprentices and employers alike.
In Switzerland, fully 1 percent of gross domestic product
is dedicated to apprenticeships, with the private sector
covering 60 percent, the cantons or states funding 30 percent,
and the federal government covering about 10 percent. In the
U.S., this level of Federal support would amount to
approximately $20 billion per year, nearly two times the total
discretionary budget for the entire U.S. Department of Labor
today. Some impressive numbers.
In Germany, the dual system of vocational education and
training supports the economy and contributes to a youth
unemployment rate of 5 percent, the lowest in the European
Union. And this compares with 12.7 percent in the U.S.,
according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
In Australia, the apprenticeship system offers more than
500 occupational apprenticeships and traineeship pathways,
including a digital apprenticeship program open to anyone of
working age.
All three countries, all three countries have implemented
research and evaluation components which support the continuous
evolution of the system and adoption of evidence-based best
practices.
During our discussion today, we will examine how these
successful international apprenticeship systems utilize
substantial investments from both government and participating
employers. I am excited to hear from Dr. Simon Marti, as I was
so impressed during my visit to Switzerland with how their
apprenticeship system is integrated into their education system
and provides permeable pathways for students to choose from.
We will also examine how successful apprenticeship systems
look to their state and federal governments for strong national
standards to ensure consistent quality and strong protections
for apprentices.
I look forward to exploring how the German apprenticeship
system relies on recognized occupations and training
regulations to set nationally recognized quality standards for
apprenticeships. These standards ensure that apprentices earn
credentials that are recognized, not only by employers across
Germany, but across the European Union.
We will be especially interested in learning how successful
apprenticeship models expand into new economic sectors through
employer collaboration, union involvement, and adoption of
guardrails to ensure quality.
I am particularly eager to learn more about the Australian
apprenticeship system, which incentivizes new apprenticeship
opportunities in high-demand occupations while also
prioritizing the recruitment of underserved groups, such as
indigenous Australians and people with disabilities.
Today's hearing is truly a unique opportunity for this
committee to discuss best practices for strengthening
government oversight, industry innovation, and educational
alignment that we can look to apply to our national
apprenticeship system. These discussions will be a crucial
resource as this committee considers apprenticeship legislation
to strengthen apprenticeship opportunities for all Americans.
Thank you again to our witnesses for being here today. I
look forward to our discussion.
I wanted to also note that I am pleased to be proceeding
with this hearing on a bipartisan basis.
I now yield to my colleague Mr. Smucker for his opening
statement.
[The statement of Chairwoman Davis follows:]
Prepared Statement of Hon. Susan A. Davis, Chairwoman, Subcommittee on
Higher Education and Workforce Investment
Before I begin, I'd like to thank our distinguished witnesses for
traveling across the globe to testify today. The Committee appreciates
the time you've taken to prepare your testimony and inform us of the
structure and outcomes in your respective apprenticeship systems.
Today, we look forward to learning more about the apprenticeship
systems of Australia, Germany, and Switzerland, including how these
systems strike a balance between strong government oversight and the
flexibility to meet the needs of employers and the labor market through
innovation. We hope to use what we learn today to strengthen
apprenticeship opportunities here in the U.S.
The U.S. Registered Apprenticeship program has long-provided
Americans the opportunity to learn valuable on- the-job skills and earn
a stackable and nationally recognized credential that serves as a
pathway to the middle class. It is my hope that we can work together on
a bipartisan basis to help scale up this model.
For years, the Australian, German, and Swiss apprenticeship systems
have been the gold standard of apprenticeship programs around the
world. They are not only highly popular and well-supported, but also
provide nationally-recognized and portable credentials valued by
apprentices and employers alike.
* In Switzerland, fully 1 percent of Gross Domestic Product is
dedicated to Apprenticeships, with the private sector covering 60
percent, the cantons or states funding 30 percent, and the federal
government covering 10 percent. In the U.S., this level of federal
support would amount to approximately $20 billion per year, nearly two
times the total discretionary budget for the entire U.S. Department of
Labor today.
* In Germany, the dual system of vocational education and training
supports the economy and contributes to a youth unemployment rate of 5
percent, the lowest in the European Union. This compares with 12.7
percent in the U.S., according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics.
* In Australia, the apprenticeship system offers more than 500
occupational apprenticeships and traineeship pathways, including a
Digital Apprenticeship Program, open to anyone of working age.
All three countries have implemented research and evaluation
components, which support the continuous evolution of the system and
adoption of evidence-based best practices.
During our discussions today, we will examine how these successful
international apprenticeship systems utilize substantial investments
from both governments and participating employers. I am excited to hear
from Dr. Simon Marti, as I was so impressed during my visit to
Switzerland with how their apprenticeship system is integrated into
their education system and provides permeable pathways for students to
choose from.
We will also examine how successful apprenticeship systems look to
their state and federal governments for strong national standards to
ensure consistent quality and strong protections for apprentices. I
look forward to exploring how the German apprenticeship system relies
on recognized occupations and training regulations to set nationally-
recognized quality standards for apprenticeships. These standards
ensure that apprentices earn credentials that are recognized not only
by employers across Germany, but across the European Union.
We will be especially interested in learning how successful
apprenticeship models expand into new economic sectors through employer
collaboration, union involvement, and adoption of guardrails to ensure
quality.
I am particularly eager to learn more about the Australian
apprenticeship system, which incentivizes new apprenticeship
opportunities in high-demand occupations, while also prioritizing the
recruitment of underserved groups, such as Indigenous Australians and
people with disabilities.
Today's hearing is a unique opportunity for this Committee to
discuss best practices for strengthening government oversight, industry
innovation, and educational alignment that we can possibly apply to our
National Apprenticeship System. These discussions will be a crucial
resource as this Committee considers apprenticeship legislation to
strengthen apprenticeship opportunities for all Americans.
Thank you, again, to our witnesses for being here today. I look
forward to our discussion. Before I yield to the Ranking Member, I
wanted to note that I am especially pleased to be holding this hearing
on a bipartisan basis.
______
Mr. Smucker. Thank you for yielding.
I would like to start by thanking the Chairwoman for
scheduling this hearing. We have had, personally and in this
committee, multiple discussions about the benefits of
apprenticeship and earn-while-you-learn programs, and so this
is going to be a wonderful discussion here.
We have seen a surge in interest for apprenticeships, both
here, and I think it is fair to say, across the world, as more
employers and small businesses recognize the critical role that
apprenticeships play in the development of the skilled
workforce. These important programs combine on-the-job learning
and classroom-based instruction so that workers receive the
development they need to get and to keep a job. Successful
workers obviously lead to successful businesses and growth in
the economy.
Internationally, apprenticeships have transformed workforce
development. And so today I am looking forward to hearing from
our witnesses from Germany, Switzerland, and Australia so that
we can learn more about each of your unique apprenticeship
systems. We know that no two countries are exactly alike and
the system that you have may not work exactly here in the
United States, but we can certainly trade best practices and
learn from each of you here today, and I am looking forward to
that.
To ensure that apprenticeship programs in the U.S. are
successful, committee Republicans will continue to support
efforts that ease the regulatory burden that many employers
face when participating in registered apprenticeships. After
all, employers know best what skills their employees need to
succeed in the workforce. Employer-led innovation should be
encouraged when it comes to work-based learning.
We must also work to better integrate education and the
workforce so that in-the-classroom and on-the-job development
work hand-in-hand to propel all students to excellence and
success in a rapidly evolving economy. A crucial aspect of
education reform will be addressing the job skills gap in this
country which has left thousands of jobs unfilled in our
booming economy.
Apprenticeships are real ways that we can give American
workers and students the skills they need for successful
careers. Today's hearing will allow Members to learn more about
the variety of apprenticeship models and how we can better
innovate to help Americans pursue opportunities that lead to
personal and professional growth.
So thank you again to each of the witnesses for being here.
We look forward to your testimonies.
[The statement of Mr. Smucker follows:]
Prepared Statement of Hon. Lloyd Smucker, Ranking Member, Subcommittee
on Higher Education and Workforce Investment
In recent years we've seen a surge in interest for apprenticeships
across the world, as more employers and small businesses recognize the
critical role apprenticeships play in the development of a skilled
workforce. These important programs combine on-the-job learning and
classroom - based instruction so that workers receive the development
they need to get a job and keep a job. Successful workers lead to
successful businesses, which grow and strengthen the U.S. economy.
Internationally apprenticeships have transformed workforce
development. Today we welcome witnesses from Germany, Switzerland, and
Australia so we can learn more about their unique apprenticeship
systems. Understanding what is and isn't working among the various
international models is valuable, but we must also remember that no two
countries are exactly alike, and international models cannot be
directly implemented in the United States.
To ensure apprenticeship programs in the U.S. are successful,
Committee Republicans will continue to support efforts that ease the
regulatory burden many employers face when participating in registered
apprenticeships. After all, employers know best what skills their
employees need to succeed in the workplace. Employer -led innovation
should be encouraged when it comes to work-based learning.
We must also work to better integrate education and the job force,
so that in the classroom and on-the-job development work hand in hand
to propel all students to excellence and success in a rapidly evolving
economy. A crucial aspect of education reform will be addressing the
job skills gap in this country, which has left thousands of jobs
unfilled in our booming economy.
Apprenticeships are real ways we can give American workers and
students the skills they need for successful careers. And today's
hearing will allow Members to learn more about the variety of
apprenticeship models and how we can better innovate to help Americans
pursue opportunities that lead to personal and professional growth.
Thank you again to our witnesses, and I look forward to your
testimonies.
______
Chairwoman Davis. I want to thank our distinguished Ranking
Member, and remind all of our Members that you are able to
insert written statements into the record and must submit them
to the Committee Clerk electronically in Microsoft Word format
by 5 p.m. on July 30.
I am pleased to recognize my colleague now, Representative
Joe Courtney, to briefly introduce our first witness appearing
before us as a witness today.
Mr. Courtney.
Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Chairwoman Davis.
As co-chair of the Friends of Australia Caucus, a
bipartisan caucus of Members from the House, I am pleased to
introduce Mr. Tim Bradley, Counselor for industry, science and
education for the Department of Education at the Australian
Embassy in Washington, D.C. In that role, Tim is well-versed in
Australian apprenticeship programs, and during his time in the
U.S., he has immersed himself in our job training system and
challenges and can offer some very useful perspectives about
ways we can both learn from each other.
I would also note that he is the first witness from the
Australian Embassy to testify before Congress since 1994, and
he wanted me to extend his thanks to the Chairwoman for the
invitation to be here.
They are a great ally of our country and, again, we share a
lot in terms of approaches to everything from common values and
interests and certainly education and economic issues. So,
again, we are pleased that he is joining us here today.
And, with that, I will yield back.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you, Mr. Courtney.
And I will now introduce our remaining witnesses. Dr.
Silvia Annen is a senior researcher at the Federal Institute
for Vocational Education and Training in Bonn, Germany, which
oversees the coordination of all parties involved in German
apprenticeship systems.
Dr. Annen, as I mentioned in my opening, the committee
appreciates the distances that you have traveled and the time
that you invested in helping us learn more about the German
apprenticeship system.
Dr. Simon Marti is the head of office of SwissCore, the
Swiss Contact Office for European Research, Innovation, and
Education in Brussels. Until June of 2019, he headed the Office
of Science, Technology, and Higher Education at the Embassy of
Switzerland in the United States of America, Washington, D.C.
Dr. Marti also began his career as an apprentice and will be
able to provide firsthand insights into the Swiss system.
As I mentioned to Dr. Annen just now when we spoke, I
wanted to extend our appreciation, of course, for your travels
today and the time that you spent informing us, and also
thanking you for the trips that my staff and other colleagues
took to Switzerland to learn more about their Swiss
apprenticeship model.
We appreciate all the witnesses for being here today and
look forward to your testimony. I want to remind the witnesses
that we have read your written statements and they will appear
in full in the hearing record.
Pursuant to Committee Rule 7(d) and committee practice,
each of you is asked to limit your oral presentation to a five-
minute summary of your written statement. I also wanted to
remind the witnesses that pursuant to Title 18 of the U.S.
Code, Section 1001, it is illegal to knowingly and willfully
falsify any statement, representation, writing, document, or
material fact presented to Congress or otherwise conceal or
cover up material fact.
Before you begin your testimony, please remember to press
the button on the microphone in front of you so that it will
turn on and the Members can hear you. As you begin to speak,
the light in front of you will turn green, and after four
minutes, the light will turn yellow to signal that you have 1
remaining minute. When the light turns red, your five minutes
have expired, and we ask you to please wrap up as quickly as
you can.
We will let the entire panel make their presentation before
we move to Member questions. And when answering a question,
please remember also to turn your microphone on.
I first recognize Mr. Tim Bradley. Thank you, sir.
STATEMENT OF TIM BRADLEY, MINISTER COUNSELLOR FOR INDUSTRY,
SCIENCE, AND EDUCATION, EMBASSY OF AUSTRALIA
Mr. Bradley. Thank you very much.
Chairwoman Davis, Ranking Member Smucker, Members of this
committee, thank you for inviting me to this hearing today. I
am very honored to participate.
A special thank you to Congressman Courtney, both for your
leadership on the Friends of Australia Caucus and for that
special introduction. Thank you.
My name is Tim Bradley. I am the minister counselor for
industry, science, and education here in the embassy in
Washington.
The Australian apprenticeship system is essential to
developing highly skilled and qualified workers. We drive
productivity and deliver the goods and services that underpin a
sizable part of the Australian economy.
The Australian apprenticeship system delivers nationally
recognized, stackable, portable adult and youth apprenticeships
that are designed in partnership with local industry and
provide access to small, medium, and large businesses. Through
a combination of productive work and structured learning,
Australian apprenticeships offer the opportunity to obtain a
variety of qualifications, all the while earning an income.
Anyone of working age can undertake an apprenticeship. They can
be started while undertaking the final 2 years of school, known
as an Australian school-based apprenticeship.
I am using the term ``Australian apprenticeships'' to cover
both apprenticeships which are a structured training agreement,
typically 3-1/2 to 4 years, that cover skilled trade areas and
result in a portable industry recognized qualification, and
also traineeships, which tend to be shorter in term and
typically cover nontrade occupations, last between 9 months and
2 years.
The Australian apprenticeship system is a shared
commonwealth-state responsibility where broadly the
commonwealth, more specifically the Department of Employment
Skill, Small, and Family Business, develops policy, administers
the Australian apprenticeship support network and provides
incentive payments, and the states and territories, which have
responsibility for registering, administering training
contracts, and providing support throughout the process.
In addition, the Australian apprenticeship support network
provides free advice and support before and during an
apprenticeship. ASQA, which is the Australian Skilled Quality
Authority, the national regulator for Australia's vocational
and education training sector, which regulates courses and
training providers to ensure nationally approved quality
standards are met; and the NCVER, the National Center for
Vocational Education Research, which is the national
professional body responsible for collecting, managing,
analyzing, and communicating research and statistics about the
sector.
A short note on vocational training in Australia. The VET
sector, the Vocational Education and Training sector. VET is
provided by registered training organizations who provide
nationally recognized courses and qualifications and off-the-
job training. They include what we call TAFEs, Tertiary and
Further Education colleges, private institutions, industry
organizations, and individual businesses. Competency-based
training packages are developed in consultation with industry
and provide a quality assured standard of training.
An integral part of the Australian apprenticeship system is
the group training model. Group training organizations enter
into training contracts with apprentices and place them with
host employers. Group training organizations assume
responsibility for quality and continuity of an apprentice's
training, as well as providing support services throughout
their course.
The group training model allows for students to rotate
through a series of host employers and facilitates employment
with employers that have seasonal or project-specific labor
requirements. It also offers apprentices a richer training
experience.
Financial incentives are provided by the commonwealth
government to employers at the time of commencement and
completion. Standard incentives vary, depending on the state
and territory, but can have a value of up to 4,000 Australian
dollars. In addition, special incentives are also provided for
those undertaking qualifications in identified skill shortage
needs, those with disability, school-based apprenticeships,
mature age workers, and for rural and regional apprentices.
Apprentices in priority occupations may access income-
contingent trade support loans worth up to $21,000 to assist
with their living costs while undertaking the apprenticeship.
About 160,000 apprentices commenced in 2018. Some 260,000
are training as of the end of last year. This represents about
2 percent of the total workforce. Most apprentices are
technicians and trades, including construction workers,
automotive and engineering. Community and personal service
workers are the next largest category.
Apprentices, for the most part, they are male, about
200,000 in the system compared with 63,000 females, and mostly
aged under 24. The number of apprentices in the system has
stayed relatively constant since about 2014.
The Australian Government is committed to an ongoing--
sorry. The Australian Government recognizes the impact that new
technologies, global markets, and changing demands will have on
the workforce. We have built a system that reflects the need to
be adaptable and responsive to those needs and provide core
skills required to satisfy the demands of the future.
The Australian Government is committed to ongoing reform
and improvement of the apprenticeship system and to the VET
system at large. A review of the VET system was undertaken last
year, with an eye on how the government can ensure millions of
Australians have the skills they need to succeed in a changing
labor market. I am pleased to say that a whole-of-government
task force has just been established to implement those
recommendations.
Chairwoman Davis, Ranking Member Smucker, thank you again
for inviting me to speak today. I hope this has been useful.
Thank you.
[The statement of Mr. Bradley follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Bradley.
Dr. Annen.
STATEMENT OF SILVIA ANNEN, PH.D., SENIOR RESEARCHER, FEDERAL
INSTITUTE FOR VOCATIONAL EDUCATION AND TRAINING, BONN, GERMANY
Ms. Annen. Thank you, Chairwoman Davis, Ranking Member
Smucker, and honorable Members of the Subcommittee on Higher
Education and Workforce Investment, for inviting me to testify
today.
I work with the German Federal Institute for Vocational
Education and Training, the BIBB. The BIBB is the recognized
competence center for researching and developing initial and
continuing vocational education and training in Germany. It
performs its task based on the Vocational Training Act and
works closely with the federal government, the German federal
states, and the social partners, the employer organizations and
the trade unions.
Our institute is committed to the principle of a dialogue
between research, politics, and practice, and promotes
innovation in national and international vocational education
and training.
Today in my testimony I have been asked to introduce the
German Dual VET system. This system provides a nationally
recognized vocational training framework by working with the
industry to determine qualifications and training.
The dual system of vocational education and training is a
major reason why Germany has such a vibrant economy and the
lowest youth unemployment rate in the EU. It equips apprentices
with sound qualifications through its unique combination of
theory and practice, learning and working, hence the name dual
system.
Participants are thus offered a debt-free, highly
attractive, and recognized training and career path after the
end of compulsory schooling, either as an alternative to
university education or as a complementary option.
Job skills are a key ingredient for commercial success in
the United States as well as in Germany. German companies, also
the ones in the U.S., are particularly well-positioned to
provide their workers with these skills, drawing on their
experience with Germany's vocational education and training
system.
In Germany, the federal government stipulates the statutory
framework and thus creates a legal certainty for all those
involved. But there are two main components to the system. The
company component of dual training is regulated in a nationally
standardized manner. The school-based component guarantees that
specific regional characteristics are taken into account. A
statutory framework is required in order to create harmony
between the two learning venues in the dual system. All of this
together guarantees equivalence and recognition of a training
occupation across Germany.
In Germany, 52.4 percent of people utilize the Dual VET
system to enter the labor market. Dual VET provides a track in
the vocational training system of Germany, though not the only
one, and typically leads to employment earlier than higher
education. In addition, access from Dual VET to higher
education, and vice versa, are mutually possible.
Dual VET qualifications open up a range of professional
opportunities for graduates. VET certificates are nationally
recognized throughout Germany as qualifications for employment
as well as for continuing education. Because certificates are
nationally recognized, graduates have the advantage of being
able to find work throughout Germany, a key criteria in
ensuring labor force mobility.
The Dual VET standards are based on the real world
employment requirements, with economic need often driving the
updating and development of national Dual VET standards.
Employers identify new requirements within their workplaces,
which leads to new occupational qualifications.
A consensus between the social partners is mandatory to
start the development of a new or the updating of an existing
occupational qualification. In practice, the social partners
and the government negotiate and adopt new standards for in-
company training, the training regulations, under the guidance
of the BIBB, within multistakeholder expert groups, which
represent the employers and employees as well as the federal
government and the federal states. These groups meet at the
BIBB on average five times over a period of about half a year
to discuss and develop the training regulations.
The education standards for vocational schools, the
framework curricula, are developed and updated in parallel and
coordinated with the in-company training standards, the
regulations.
Dual VET standards simply formalize previously agreed-upon
standards by all relevant stakeholders. Hence, the standards
are not simply imposed from above, but when finally
promulgated, are already accepted by the same stakeholders who
are tasked with implementing and monitoring them. Most
importantly, they are agreed to by employers who require these
skills. These standards guide the delivery, monitoring,
supervision, and support of the Dual VET nationwide.
The quality assurance guaranteed within the system is
essential for its acceptance and success. The key aspects in
this regard are the cooperation of the government, the business
community, and the social partners, the learning within the
work process, the acceptance of national standards, the
qualified VET staff, and the institutionalized research and
advice. These quality features could provide some guidance
toward which elements of the Dual VET could be utilized for
strengthening quality of VET in other countries.
[The statement of Ms. Annen follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
Dr. Marti.
STATEMENT OF SIMON MARTI, PH.D., HEAD OF OFFICE, SWISSCORE,
BRUSSELS, BELGIUM
Mr. Marti. Good morning. I want to thank the subcommittee
Chairwoman Susan Davis, Ranking Member Lloyd Smucker, and all
the Members of the House Committee on Education and Labor, for
this invitation and for the opportunity to testify about
Switzerland's apprenticeship model.
My name is Simon Marti, and I am the head of the office of
SwissCore, the Swiss Contact Office for European Research,
Innovation, and Education in Brussels.
Until only a month ago, I was heading the Science and
Education Office here at the Swiss Embassy to the United
States, where I was closely involved in the Swiss-American
cooperation in apprenticeship. The Swiss State Secretariat for
Education, Research, and Innovation has asked me to represent
them in this hearing today. It is a pleasure to be back in
Washington.
Apprenticeships are the most important upper secondary
educational pathway in Switzerland. Around two-thirds of our
youth start a three- or four-year apprenticeship program at age
16 after having finished compulsory education. They can choose
from roughly 230 different occupations which cover all sectors
of our economy.
Apprenticeships are comprehensive dual pathways, which
include an educational part of typically 1 or 2 days per week
at the vocational school, and the practical part, usually with
a private or public employer during the remaining 3 or 4 days
each week. Apprentices do not have to pay tuition. The
employers pays them a small salary. Thus, they earn while they
learn.
I would like to highlight three key features of our
apprenticeship model that contributes to its success. It only
works so smoothly because the involved actors work closely
together in a public-private partnership.
The employers play an important role. Over one-third of all
Swiss companies that are able to train apprentices choose to do
so. They hire young apprentices and offer them the opportunity
to learn in actual workstreams, supported by an instructor.
Furthermore, the employers, via their professional
organizations, are playing an important role in designing
apprenticeship programs and updating them on a regular basis.
The cantons, which have roughly the same role and autonomy
as States do in this country, are providing the vocational
schools and career counseling. They also supervise
apprenticeship programs in their jurisdiction.
Federal legislation guarantees nationwide portability of
the different degrees. The federal government supervises the
functioning of the system and supports its further development
by working with the cantons and professional organizations to
adapt it for the future.
This division of labor reflects how the system is funded.
We invest every year more than 1 percent of our GDP or $9
billion into our apprenticeship system. About 60 percent are
contributed by the employers, 30 percent by the cantons, and 10
percent by the federal government. Although the employers
contribute the most, they see a positive financial return on
investment in terms of costs and benefits.
A second success factor is that the apprenticeship system
is an integral part of our permeable education system. You can
start out on an apprenticeship pathway, and if you have the
aptitude and interest to do so, move on to university or
further professional certification. There are no dead ends in
the system. Multiple options are open at all levels of
education.
Lifelong learning is a reality in Switzerland. Young
students and their parents typically perceive apprenticeships
as strong foundations for a promising career or for the
continuation of one's educational pathway. The permeability of
the Swiss education system also makes it easier for our
workforce to adapt to new developments on the labor markets and
also to personal interests.
Finally, apprenticeships are labor market-oriented.
Apprentices learn to work with the latest tools and equipment
that the school could not typically afford but the company
needs in order to compete in the free market. Furthermore, when
an employer is offering an apprenticeship position, it also
means that this occupation is relevant in the labor market and
there are typically job opportunities once the apprentice
graduates.
The Swiss system has many positive outcomes. It offers
young people a meaningful perspective, prepares them to enter
the labor market right after graduating from an apprenticeship
program and earning a good salary already at age 19 or in their
early twenties. This contributes to a low youth unemployment
rate and offers our economy and society the skilled workforce
that is necessary to compete in international markets and to
flourish.
Chairwoman Davis, Ranking Member Smucker, Members of the
Committee on Education and Labor, I thank you for your
attention.
[The statement of Mr. Marti follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
Now, under Committee Rule 8(a), we will now question
witnesses under the five-minute rule. I have decided to go at
the end, so I am going to yield to our next senior Member on
the Majority side, and he will be followed by the Ranking
Member. And we will then alternate between the sides.
Mr. Courtney.
Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Chairwoman Davis. Again, I want to
congratulate you and the Ranking Member for holding this
hearing. Frankly, I wish we did more of this, in terms of
really learning from other examples around the world. So,
again, kudos to both of you.
And thank you to all the witnesses for, again, really
informing us this morning.
Mr. Bradley, again, using Australia as, again, an example
of a country which we can learn from, here are the
similarities: Australia is a market economy. The structure of
its government consists of a federal level and also state
level, which you sort of alluded to during your remarks. You
also shared with us the fact that you are experiencing a skills
gap just like we are. So, obviously, we are sort of all
interested in trying to learn from each other as ways to fix
that.
I guess what I would ask you to do again is if you could
sort of walk through the architecture of the arrangement that
exists right now in terms of, again, the various organizations.
So specifically the registered training organizations that
provide nationally recognized courses in qualifications for the
training portion of an apprenticeship, using your nationally
recognized competency-based training packages.
Again, if you could just sort of walk us through how are
RTOs, you know, what do they consist of, who basically oversees
their performance, and, again, in the context of just sort of
explaining the architecture and governance?
Mr. Bradley. Thank you. Thank you for the question. So let
me reiterate, the VET sector in apprenticeships in Australia is
a shared commonwealth and state responsibility. So we have a
mechanism we call--
Mr. Courtney. Just to translate into our English, so
commonwealth means federal?
Mr. Bradley. Being the federal government.
Mr. Courtney. Thank you.
Mr. Bradley. Shared responsibility between the federal and
state governments. So we have a mechanism through which the
federal and state governments can get together and kind of have
these robust discussions and kind of work out a coordinated
policy, national level and state levels, and how that can
interact. And that is called the Council of Australian
Governments Industry and Skills Council, COAG Skills Council.
The Council gets together on a semiregular basis to have these
issues, and they can set policy and respond to different demand
factors that we are seeing in the market, for example, skill
shortages, where are the priority skill shortages, what were
the gaps that need to be addressed.
That process is kind of working its way through the system
now in terms of skill shortages. And just as of earlier this
year, a list of priority skill areas was released by the
government to say this is where we need to focus our attention.
When it gets to--you asked about the RTOs, so registered
training organizations are those institutions that deliver the
education. They are a mixture of publicly funded colleges,
private organizations, and industry groups. They are certified
or accredited by a federal body known as ASQA, the Australian
Skills Quality Authority, which is responsible for ensuring
that what is being provided meets certain standards, is
nationally consistent, and meets a variety of criteria.
Mr. Courtney. If I could just jump in. So, again, you have
got basically that level which establishes sort of a baseline
in terms of quality and certification. Again, then that sort of
flows down at the state level, again, with employer input in
terms of just, you know, the--
Mr. Bradley. When it comes to individual courses, what we
call training packages, so those are designed with industry to
say, you know, this is--for example, cybersecurity. What does
it mean? What would a certificate 3 in cybersecurity need, say,
if I was to employ someone who is a cybersecurity specialist or
technician? What would I expect from them? And those
expectations are heavily provided for by industry.
Mr. Courtney. And for an individual who, again, goes
through this process and obtains that certification, that
certification is portable, right? I mean, that is something
that they are not sort of tied to a specific employer or
region.
Mr. Bradley. Not to an employer, not to an individual
state. So the Australian Qualifications Framework, the AQF,
sits above all of this. And you have a qualification which you
can take from employer to employer, from state to state, and
you can also use it to contribute towards further education as
well. So you can complete a certificate 3, for example. With a
bit more study, that becomes a certificate 4.
Mr. Courtney. Great. And, again, I think that seems like
you wrestled with trying to strike the right balance, but at
least maintaining a certifiable baseline.
With that, I yield back.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you, Mr. Courtney.
Now, Mr. Smucker, the Ranking Member, has decided to go at
the end of his Members of questioning, so we will go to Mr.
Grothman.
Mr. Grothman. Okay. A couple questions. Of course, you are
here today because I think we all agree that, in America, our
education system after people graduate from high school is very
inefficient and very screwed up.
At what age in each of your countries is an average person
expected to be working in the profession in which he or she
will work for the rest of their life? I guess I will put it
that way. What is the expectation?
We will start with you, Mr. Bradley, and just work across.
Mr. Bradley. Thank you for the question. I guess the answer
to that is it depends on the occupation that we are talking
about. I can tell you that, roughly, of the 140,000 apprentices
that commenced an apprenticeship--
Mr. Grothman. And I am not just saying apprentice. I am
looking for your country. Like in America, you could go to
college to become a CPA. You could get an apprenticeship and
become a pipefitter or an operating engineer.
The problem in America is very few people begin to do those
things at age 21 or 22. Too many of them farfle around for a
while in life before they do what eventually will be their
life's work. That is what I am looking for.
In your respective countries, subjectively if you don't
have the exact answer, when are people expected to be working
full time at the profession of their life?
Mr. Bradley. Again, sir, I guess you would have an
apprenticeship, which would take about 4 years. So you are
talking about 22 by the time you are starting a career. The
same with a bachelor's degree. You are talking 21, 22, 23 maybe
before you go in a profession like that.
I don't know if the answer is occupation for life. That is
probably where I am tripping up on the question. I think we are
in a state of the world now where we are starting one
occupation, a bit more training, a bit more education, and we
might pivot along the way through.
Thank you.
Ms. Annen. I can say for Germany that it is about the same
age. So if you start your apprenticeship at about 18, 19, you
might also be ready at 21, 22. But the same thing occurs in
Germany, like it must not mean that you do this occupation for
the rest of your life. So that is one major characteristic or
criteria for our occupations, that we want to qualify people
very broadly so that they have flexibility within their sector
and also to what other sectors, so that it is not like they
have to stick in this one occupation that is very narrow. The
qualification that we offer, that is a major characteristic.
And there is also continuing education. You can transfer to
higher education. So it doesn't necessarily mean--for example,
I started my apprenticeship also as a bank clerk, and now I am
sitting here. So it depends on what you are doing afterwards.
Mr. Grothman. Yes. Dr. Marti.
Mr. Marti. Thank you. Yes. In Switzerland, apprentices
usually graduate at age 19 and 20, and then they can really
start working in their occupation.
Mr. Grothman. Is that the norm?
Mr. Marti. I would say most of people who do an
apprenticeship graduate at age 19 or 20, because typically,
they start around 16. Some start at age 15. Some start at age
17. That is the range. And then the apprenticeships usually
take 3 or 4 years, depending which occupation we are talking
about.
Mr. Grothman. Okay.
Mr. Marti. So they can start working full time in their
profession at age 19 or 20, some even at 18 maybe, some in
their early twenties. And that is also, I think, a key feature
of our system; they typically do not stay there for the rest of
their life. They can go on into further education and--
Mr. Grothman. Okay. I want to ask each of you whether you
have this problem in your country. In America, I think we have
two huge problems connected with our traditional four-year
universities. First of all, almost half do not graduate when
they go down that path, which obviously is a problem. And
secondly, we have a lot of people get a degree in a four-year
university and they find out they cannot get a satisfactory job
with that four-year university and they may start an
apprenticeship at age 25 or 28.
Could you comment whether you have those problems in your
countries? Again, I will start with Mr. Bradley.
Mr. Bradley. So, yes. So my recollection is that our
completion rates for a three- or four-year bachelor's degree
are slightly higher than the U.S., but I am talking 60 percent
rather than 50 percent. But I can talk about graduate outcomes
where I know 75, 85 percent of graduates have employment within
3 months of completing their degree.
Ms. Annen. So for Germany, I can say that more than 50
percent are entering this dual system, and it is driven by a
need of the company. So they have actual places where they want
to hire the people after they finish the apprenticeship. And in
our system, like 95 percent of the apprenticeships get a job
afterwards.
And we have a lower participation in higher education. Now
that we have changed the degrees, that we also implemented a
bachelor in math degree, that might change a little bit. So
bachelor degrees are a little bit competitive to
apprenticeships, but so far, apprenticeships offer a really
good career perspective and almost secure employment
afterwards.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you. Mr. Grothman, we are going to
move to Ms. Jayapal.
Ms. Jayapal. Thank you very much, Madam Chair.
And thank you so much to all of you for coming here. I have
the great honor of having former Ambassador to Switzerland,
Suzy LeVine is in my district. And so I have actually heard a
lot about, particularly Switzerland, but all over Europe the
apprenticeship model. And I am grateful that you all are here.
We have a lot to learn from you.
Just going to the question of higher education, can you
just quickly tell me, just picking up from where my colleague
left off, whether the higher education in your countries is
paid for by the government? Dr. Marti.
Mr. Marti. Excuse me, I didn't understand the last part.
Ms. Jayapal. Higher education, how much does higher
education cost? Is the majority of the cost covered by the
government or are students covering that?
Mr. Marti. So university level education usually costs
about $700 per semester in terms of tuition for a research
university.
Ms. Jayapal. I am sorry, let me just cough a little bit
into the microphone. $700 per semester?
Mr. Marti. Right, for research universities. And a
university of applied science, I believe it might be a little
bit higher, like $1,000 per semester. But overall, for a
bachelor, it might be below $7,000.
Ms. Jayapal. $7,000, okay. Dr. Annen.
Ms. Annen. I can say almost the same numbers for Germany.
So--
Ms. Jayapal. Okay. And Mr. Bradley?
Mr. Bradley. It is a bit more complicated. So it is a co-
contribution between the federal government and students. The
students' fees are subsidized by the government, but all
students in Australia have access to an income-contingent loan,
which is not required to be repaid until students start earning
above a certain threshold.
Ms. Jayapal. So not required to be repaid even if they are
taking a loan. So I think that is an important point, because
when you look at completion rates, you also have to look at
some of the factors that drive why students don't complete.
Let me go to--women's participation in apprenticeship
programs has been something I have been looking very closely
at, and in the United States, it is devastatingly low. Only
about 7 percent of apprentices nationwide are women. I think in
Australia it is 25 percent are women. In Germany, about 37
percent are women.
So, Dr. Annen, what strategies have been particularly
successful in making apprenticeships more attractive or
accessible to women?
Ms. Annen. I wouldn't even say that we have a big problem
with low participation of females in apprenticeships. It
depends on the occupation, though there are typical male-
dominated occupations, like manufacturing or construction, for
example, and there are also occupations dominated by women,
like education and care and typical occupations like this.
But we have programs like called Girls' Day or Boys' Day,
where we try to promote gender-neutral vocational choices. And
also, companies have marketing concepts in place to attract
more female apprentices, especially in IT or sectors like this
where they have a low participation of females so far.
Ms. Jayapal. In the United States, registered
apprenticeships provide standardization of pay, and it actually
limits the potential for wage discrimination based on gender.
Can you explain how Germany's wage standardization system works
and how that helps ensure equal pay for equal work?
Ms. Annen. So I can speak for the apprentices, and I think
there is equal pay for both genders. And so the payment for the
apprentices is based on the collective wage agreement that is
agreed upon by the social partners in each sector. And besides,
there can also be recommendations by the chambers in place
about what should be paid to the apprentices. And so employers
can a little bit undercut or exceed this payment, but more or
less it is in the same range, and it is about an average 850
euro a month what they get.
Ms. Jayapal. Yes, that is very helpful. I mean, I just
think that standardization of pay is very, very important,
because it helps on that piece.
The wage progression piece is also important, and it is
important that individuals who complete apprenticeships also
have the opportunity to pursue a higher education degree if
they so choose.
Dr. Marti, you talked about no dead ends in the Swiss
apprenticeship system. Could you speak about why that is so
important?
Mr. Marti. I think it is also very important for the image,
apprenticeship paths, because young people always know that
they can do an apprenticeship and they know that afterwards
they have a profession. They learned a profession. They can
start working, but they would always have the opportunity to
move on and go to university. So I think it clearly helps the
image of the apprenticeship.
Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. And what is the minimum wage in
your countries, out of curiosity?
Mr. Marti. The median?
Ms. Jayapal. Minimum wage. Minimum wage, yeah.
Mr. Marti. We don't have a legal minimum wage, to my
knowledge. There are only recommendations.
Ms. Jayapal. Because it is set by a board, correct?
Mr. Marti. Sorry?
Ms. Jayapal. It is set by a board, is that how it--
Mr. Marti. I know that there are recommendations, but I
don't think they are legally binding, but I am not sure.
Ms. Jayapal. And do you have a sense of what is the--
Mr. Marti. I can give you maybe a little bit of an idea.
After an apprenticeship, the professions I know, when you
graduate from apprenticeship, usually at the very young age 19
or 20, you earn, I would say, around $4,000 per month.
Ms. Jayapal. $4,000 a month.
Mr. Marti. Per month after an apprenticeship, I would say
on average. Like in the apprenticeship field I was, I think it
was a little bit higher, but that was 20 years ago.
Ms. Jayapal. But that would be $48,000 a year. A $15
minimum wage would only be $30,000. This would be $48,000.
Mr. Marti. It depends really which occupation we are
talking about. It can go higher.
Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much.
I yield back.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
Ms. Stefanik.
Ms. Stefanik. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Dr. Annen, in your testimony, you mentioned that the
graduation rate of apprenticeship programs is higher than that
of students in traditional higher education. Low completion
rates is something that--it is an issue that we are facing in
this country that we are trying to improve upon. What do you
think are the major reasons that we see a higher graduation
rate in these apprenticeship programs?
Ms. Annen. I think it depends on the individual, of course,
but I think there is a high motivation. So you are very much
involved in the everyday business in the company. And the
company has a big interest that they complete the
apprenticeship successfully.
So I think that there are a lot of people around the
apprentice who take care of them and there is a lot of
monitoring. There is this intermediate examination when they
see how well they are doing in the apprenticeship. And
afterwards when they are not doing very well, there are some
adjustment measures in place. So the companies try to take care
of it, that the apprentice actually reaches the aim of the
apprenticeship.
And I think in higher education, it depends if you are in a
university or a university of applied science, but there are
less people who actually take care and who monitor the success
of the student. So I think that is one element on what I would
say makes it more successful, that the completion rate is
higher.
Ms. Stefanik. Thank you.
Mr. Bradley, in your testimony you, mentioned that the
length of time to complete an apprenticeship is determined
through a competency-based progression. How does this approach,
instead of mandating a specific one-size-fits-all length of
time, how does that benefit students who are deciding to change
pathways or begin a program after already gaining experience in
the workforce?
Mr. Bradley. So, again, it depends on the occupation, I
guess, we are looking at. It is not a duration that kind of
qualifies you to be a technician tradesperson, whatever, but it
is how well-skilled are you. So the training packages that are
developed, in consultation with industry, reflect that. And it
is this is what we need, this is what is required, so this is
roughly how long it takes.
I would probably answer that question by going back to the
qualifications framework, where the amount of study that you do
will qualify you for a qualification up to a certain level. So
maybe certificate 2, certificate 3. If you choose to leave
early and you have done an amount of study, 6 months, a year,
and that qualifies you for one of the lower qualifications even
though you are stretching for a higher one, you will still be
able to walk away with that, at least walk away with something.
Ms. Stefanik. Thank you.
I yield the balance of my time to the Ranking Member of the
full committee, Dr. Foxx.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Ms. Stefanik.
I want to build a little bit on some comments that were
just made. A persistent problem we have with the apprenticeship
system in the United States is the disappointing stigma
attached to models other than what we have known as, quote,
traditional postsecondary education at a college or university.
Despite the consistent evidence of success for
participants, there still seems to be a hesitance on the part
of some to enter into apprenticeship programs. I have spent
years trying to combat the stigma and championing the idea that
all education is career education.
And to build on the comment about what has been done to
change the attitude, what factors do you think have led to the
success you have experienced in building a culture where
apprenticeships are such an integral and accepted component of
education? And if each of you would answer that briefly. We
have 1 and a quarter minute.
Mr. Bradley. Just real quick. So I guess there are two
things that I will point to. And thank you for the question.
Two things that I will point to. One is the Australian
Apprenticeships Ambassadors Program, which has recruited
prominent Australians, particularly from different sports
fields, so from the National Rugby League, for example, or the
Australian Football League, who have come up through the
vocational or apprenticeship ranks themselves who now act out
in the community and say, this is what I have done, this is how
I learned, this is where I have got to, and what a wonderful
idea that was. That is one.
The other thing I will point to was a joint campaign
between the industry body that represents our technical
colleges and our research universities, the group of eight, who
came out together. So you had the community colleges and the
research universities who came out together and said that there
needs to be a seamless pathway from vocational training to
higher education and to research. These sectors are working
together.
Thank you.
Ms. Annen. I think for Germany, I can say that the
companies themselves that train the people, the
apprenticeships, and so they trust what they do themselves. And
they have developed training standards, so they also know that
it is adjusted to what are their needs.
What they don't know necessarily about higher education,
so, of course, they need also graduates from higher education.
But for the apprenticeship, there is just a high transparency.
So they know what is in it. They know the standard. They
developed it, and they know how it is trained, so they trust
the result and the outcomes and that is why they want to hire
the people. And that is why it is kind of successful.
Chairwoman Davis. I am going to take the Chair's
prerogative and let Dr. Marti finish your question.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Mr. Marti. I think the success actually speaks to a certain
degree for itself. But also, what we did, we streamlined the
permeability within our overall education system, and I think
that contributed a lot to the image also of the apprenticeship
system.
But also, the fact that the apprenticeship model takes
place in a dual way. Like practice and education in a school
has a stimulating effect on many young people, because they
know why they learned that.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you, Dr. Foxx.
Mr. Takano.
Mr. Takano. Thank you, Chairwoman Davis, for this hearing.
And thank you to our witnesses for providing your insight into
this growing industry in your respective countries.
These international models provide great examples of what
successful and high-quality apprenticeship programs look like.
While we have some successful registered apprenticeships in a
few of our States here in America, we also have a lot to learn
from you all on how to implement our apprenticeships on a
larger scale.
The Trump administration established a task force to study
apprenticeships, and while it recommended that there are
apprenticeship opportunities in every high school in America,
there has not been a clear plan on how to make this happen.
So here is a question I have for every one of you: What are
the specific steps your countries have taken to lead such high
participation in apprenticeships while students are still in
school? Starting with Mr. Bradley.
Mr. Bradley. So I think the answer to that question is to
say there is a holistic view here. So, one, we have wanted to
bring in flexibility, local industry, local knowledge into the
design of different courses and different apprenticeships. So
that flexibility and that kind of input from industry I think
has been very, very important.
At the same time, you need to have the quality assurance
that sits on top. So we have a national regulator that sits
across our vocational sector to ensure that certain competency
standards are met and the student experience is a positive one.
Our quality assurance bodies, we have one for the vocational
sector and one for higher education. It is a bit more than just
what is taught and what is specifically being offered as part
of a degree or as part of a certificate or diploma course, but
they also go into questions about sexual assault on campus,
freedom of speech. What is the ultimate student experience like
as you are undertaking this course?
Mr. Takano. Great. Thanks.
Dr. Annen.
Ms. Annen. Yeah. I think in Germany, after you finish your
full-time compulsory education, you have got the choice of 3
more years of compulsory part-time education. That can be
vocational or general education. So it gives students, young
people the choice. They can choose if they want to go more to
what is a vocational track or more a general track, but they
afterwards still have the opportunities to go into higher
education, to go into an apprenticeship.
And, yes, I think that is why the participation in the
system is that high. And I think it is a lot about the
reputation that Dual VET has in Germany. So after even if you
complete your A level, it is an opportunity for people to build
a good career on this.
Mr. Takano. And, of course, so they are not having to
choose between going to an apprenticeship and also being able
to afford a regular higher education. It sounds like it is very
affordable in Germany.
Ms. Annen. I think both opportunities are very affordable.
So I don't think that the financial aspect is a big criteria
for young people. So in the apprenticeship, they get paid from
the companies. In the higher education, as you have heard from
both of us, it is not like they have to pay high tuition.
But I think the reputation of vocational training is very
high in Germany. So that it is not like you do this vocational
training and, as has been asked before, you end up in the
occupation for the rest of your life. It offers a broad variety
of opportunities afterwards.
Mr. Takano. Dr. Marti.
Mr. Marti. I think it is similar. The apprenticeship
pathways are just seen as very relevant. And as we have
apprenticeships in 230 different fields, there is something for
everyone in a way. Because in school you measure success with
grades, and in an apprenticeship, yeah, you have a few
subjects, but apprenticeships, it can be so many different
things. You can be a music instrument builder. You can do an
apprenticeship in banking, a lab technician, construction
worker, chef, so many fields.
So there is almost something, probably something for
everyone, and I think that attracts people. That is why we have
a quite consistent percentage of a bit more than two-thirds of
an age cohort going into apprenticeship.
Mr. Takano. Thank you.
Mr. Bradley, in your testimony, you noted that Australia
provides an incentive of about $4,000 to employers at the time
of completion of the program, as well as special incentives. Is
that an amount per apprentice or per year?
Mr. Bradley. One is up to $4,000. I should make that clear.
There are payments paid to the employer upon commencement and
completion.
Mr. Takano. But is that per student or is that just to be--
Mr. Bradley. That is per apprentice.
Mr. Takano. Per apprentice?
Mr. Bradley. Yes.
Mr. Takano. So they get $4,000 per year per apprentice--or
for completion?
Mr. Bradley. My understanding is that the employer will
receive a payment for taking on an apprentice and once they
complete the apprenticeship as well.
Mr. Takano. That is per apprentice. That is amazing.
I yield back, Madam Chair.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
Dr. Foxx.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Madam Chair.
And a minute ago, I just jumped into my question, and I
want to say thank you all to being here today and sharing your
expertise with us and helping us better understand the programs
that you have operating. So thank you very much for coming.
Dr. Marti, I appreciate your discussion of the public-
private partnership in Switzerland's apprenticeship model--and
I know some of my colleagues were able to visit there. I was
not.--and the role of employers in designing and updating
programs. I agree this is absolutely vital to ensuring students
have the skills necessary to be competitive in the labor
market.
So tell us what you have done in Switzerland to integrate
the apprenticeship system with the needs of employers and why
this is important.
Mr. Marti. The employers are really in the driver's seat
when it comes to designing the curricula of the apprenticeship.
Like whatever happens in the workstreams where apprentices
learn in a company or with any employer, those needs are
defined by the employers. The federal government, however, of
course, reviews those curricula in order to make sure that they
are consistent and consistent for a profession, but the
definition of the needs is coming from the employers.
Ms. Foxx. And I am assuming that some of this has to do
with the labor market. Do you make adjustments in the slots
that are available? I am sure employers must do that. Does the
government have any role in playing, in deciding, look, we can
look down the road and we know we are going to have X positions
empty?
Mr. Marti. The government does monitor it, but it is a free
market. Currently, this market works in favor of the
apprentices, because there are many more open positions than
there are young people entering apprenticeships. The reason is
just demographically. We had the opposite in the late nineties
until about 2010, where we had too few apprenticeship
positions. Then the government, like, was talking to the
employers to incentivize them to offer more apprenticeship
positions, but not with subsidies.
So it is a little bit of an up and down. Now we see
stronger age cohorts coming up. So in 10 years' time, I think
the market might be a little bit different than now, but then
again, we might also have new apprenticeship fields. It is
really a market.
Ms. Foxx. I think it is really important what you said
before about there are 230 fields. I think in the United
States, apprenticeships have been almost always thought about
as being in the construction area, and that has been one of the
things I have been talking about for a long time too is we need
earn-while-you-learn programs. I don't care what you call them,
apprenticeships or whatever, but earn-while-you-learn programs.
I would like to ask you another question, Dr. Marti. Given
how young Swiss students start their apprenticeships, could you
talk more about how students determine what apprenticeship they
want to pursue?
Mr. Marti. Thank you. Yes. They usually start at age 14,
15, around that time, the second and last year of compulsory
education that ends around 15, 16, depending when they are born
in the year. So during the last 2 years, it is quite an
intensive process.
Usually, the homeroom teacher is reserving one lesson per
week to overviews on what is possible. They would visit the
career counseling center, which is kind of a regional
infrastructure in Switzerland. Every region has one, where they
can go for counseling like on an individual level. In the
classroom, it is class wide. There is also an individual level.
But employers, companies, they do also a lot. So they offer
job shadowings. You can go there and try out whether that is
something that you would be interested in. So there is quite a
lot going on in that way, yeah.
Ms. Foxx. I want to go back to something that was said
earlier. And I am going to ask you all for a set of numbers
about--we compare all the time what people earn by getting a
baccalaureate and not getting a baccalaureate. And I would like
to ask you all, not now, but I will submit questions to you
about apprenticeships versus higher ed.
But I want to ask you about, really quickly, this figure
you gave about $7,000 total for a baccalaureate degree, that
does not count housing, that does not count food, any of those
auxiliary expenses, right?
Ms. Annen. In Germany, basically what you pay for the
institution is almost nothing. You pay for the services of the
university and you pay for your housing and stuff, but there
are also subsidies by the government. So you can get grants and
you can also get money from the government, and that supports
you.
Ms. Foxx. Okay.
Chairwoman Davis. We will finish that up at another -
Ms. Foxx. Yes, ma'am, thank you.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
Ms. Bonamici.
Ms. Bonamici. Thank you, Chair Davis and Ranking Member
Smucker. And thank you to our witnesses. I am glad we are
having this hearing today to learn about successful policies
that can help people access better paying jobs and meet the
demands of our local employers. I often talk about having a
path for everyone, and not everyone is on the same path and we
have to have those opportunities.
In my home State of Oregon, we are fortunate to have
numerous examples of strong registered apprenticeship programs
that include quality training, portable credentials, high
wages, and a pathway to a permanent job. And one example, we
have the Oregon Manufacturing Innovation Center, also known as
OMIC. They are bringing together industry leaders in advanced
manufacturing with local colleges to develop a registered
apprenticeship program to complement the advanced manufacturing
facilities, actually based off a model in Sheffield, England.
And this is a collaboration that is going to provide growth,
innovation, and efficiency in advanced manufacturing, plus a
more skilled workforce. It is a tremendous opportunity for
Oregonians and the type of partnership I think that we are
looking for.
And as we evaluate ways to expand registered apprenticeship
programs in the United States to new sectors of the economy
beyond manufacturing and building trades, we have an
opportunity to learn a lot from what you are doing and your
robust support for apprenticeship programs.
Mr. Bradley, I wanted to ask you, do Australia's registered
training organizations provide apprentices with the wraparound
services, for example, childcare, transportation, mentoring,
uniforms or work attire, tools? And how, if so, does the
inclusion of these support services affect the success and
retention of the apprentices?
Mr. Bradley. Thank you for the question. So part of the
program you will have access to what is called the Australian
Apprenticeship Support Network, which provides that kind of
more pastoral care, mentorship, industry-specific mentorship,
along throughout the component of the apprenticeship. You will
have access--in certain occupations, you will have access to an
income-contingent loan, which will allow you to do those
upfront purchases if you have to buy tools, uniforms, whatever
it is, those kind of additional living costs to begin your
apprenticeship as well up to around $21,000, which I think is
rather sizable.
Beyond that, you mentioned childcare, transportation.
Childcare I want to say will be a private service. I don't
think there is a specific program or facility to provide that.
And then transportation, I think it will vary from state to
state whether or not you are treated in the same way as a
university student or a college student while you are doing
your apprenticeship as well, whether or not you get a
concession.
Ms. Bonamici. Thank you. We found that oftentimes those can
be barriers to people actually completing an apprenticeship.
And then I wanted to ask each of you, how do your country
systems engage with stakeholders, with the employers, with
labor unions, with apprentices, with localities, in developing
your programs? And have these partnerships allowed you to
expand programs to new occupations or sectors?
Dr. Annen?
Ms. Annen. So I think the main characteristic of our system
that it is consensus-based. So we have all the stakeholders
together at the table once we start the idea of creating a new
apprenticeship or a new occupation or if we are updating one.
So they come together and they have to agree upon the standard
that we want to set. So it is like this consensus principle is
something that is very dominant in our system, I guess.
Ms. Bonamici. Thank you.
Dr. Marti, how do you engage stakeholders, and have you
been able to expand to new occupations or sectors?
Mr. Marti. It is a bottom-up process. So, usually, it is
the employers who start talking to their professional
organization they are a member of. And these professional
organizations, they aggregate that, and then they talk to the
government, to the federal government. And the federal
government would formally decide to start a commission where
all the partners, probably similar as what you said, would be
involved. Also, the cantons, the employers, as well as the
professional organizations and the federal government.
Ms. Bonamici. And, Mr. Bradley, how do you engage
stakeholders, and have you been able to expand to new
occupations or sectors?
Mr. Bradley. So I think industry input is an important part
of the apprenticeship program as well. Not just in terms of
identifying new programs, but importing into the training
packages the competencies, what qualifies and so on. It is a
rather flexible system I will say. There are over 500
occupational pathways through the apprenticeships and
traineeships that are on offer. It is being expanded into new
digital fields, advanced manufacturing, Industry 4.0,
cybersecurity and so on as well.
Ms. Bonamici. Terrific. Thank you.
And I yield back.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
Mr. Cline.
Mr. Cline. Thank you, Madam Chair. And the Ranking Member,
I want to thank you as well. I want to thank our witnesses for
being here.
I want to follow on the great questions of Ms. Bonamici
talking about the great work that Oregon is doing. It sounds
like some exciting things are happening out there. Virginia is
also doing some great things with job training programs. I get
to brag a little bit. CNBC just came out with their top States
to do business, and Virginia was once again number one.
So we are doing some great innovative things in Virginia,
and part of that is because we have that flexibility. And I
want to actually point out that the administration is following
up on that by trying to remove some of the top-down
administration of these apprenticeship programs. The Task Force
on Apprenticeship Expansion recommended the creation of a new
recognition for apprenticeship programs that choose not to
register with the Department of Labor known as the Industry-
Recognized Apprenticeship Program, IRAP. These apprenticeships
will be overseen by third parties that may include trade and
industry groups, companies, nonprofits, unions and joint labor-
management organizations. They are complementing these
federally registered apprenticeships, but they are not held
back by the same bureaucratic restraints that prevent
flexibility and program requirements that are crucial to
meeting the varying needs of different industries.
And I would argue that the industries that are present in
Virginia are often different than the industries that are
present in a State like Oregon. So you need that flexibility to
be able to adjust and update.
So I know that you all are managing these programs in your
own countries on a smaller scale, but when it comes to the
autonomy of your localities to adjust, do your localities have
that autonomy? Are they able to adapt, or is it more of a top-
down model where you have to go to the entity that is
regulating on a national level to get that adjustment made? Let
me start with Mr.--well, let me start with Dr. Annen.
Ms. Annen. So I think the magic word in Germany is that our
training standards are a minimum standard. So we agree upon
something that is always contained in the certificate once you
finish your apprenticeship. And besides this, we have got a lot
of flexibility for the companies. They can actually add content
to it. They can adjust the things to what their company-based
needs. And also, we try to do our standards, which are company
and technology neutral, so that it means that it is on a very
abstract level how we try to establish those standards, that it
leaves the flexibility that the companies need.
Also, we are reforming our training regulations every 5 to
10 years, so within that time, of course, companies have the
flexibility to adjust their training to what the actual needs.
But what we have in our training regulation is the minimum
standard that every company can rely on once you hire an
apprentice in this occupation that at least they have what the
content of this standard is.
Mr. Cline. Thank you.
Dr. Marti.
Mr. Marti. Thank you. Yeah, it is similar. You can always
do more than what is regulated, but for each occupation, it is
valid federally, like nationwide. So the minimum standards are
really nationwide valid.
Mr. Cline. What percent of your education budget is funded
nationally? Do you fund it--is it administered--
Mr. Marti. Like for the apprenticeship system, it is $9
billion in total. About 5.2 is from the employers, 60 percent,
and about 3.6 is from the cantons, and--
Mr. Cline. But even your secondary school system, is that
administered federally or is that locally?
Mr. Marti. That is cantonal and locally.
Mr. Cline. And locally, okay.
Mr. Marti. Yes.
Mr. Cline. All right. Mr. Bradley, what about the
flexibility for your regions?
Mr. Bradley. So I think that was a good way to phrase it as
well is it provides a minimum standard, the system. I think
what is important is that we have a nationally recognized
qualification. It is market-orientated, quality assured,
stackable, portable.
We have just completed a rather significant review of our
vocational education sector, the Joyce review, and that has
been all about how do we strengthen quality assurance, speed up
the qualification development, provide simple pathways to
getting new apprenticeships up and running. And there is a task
force that has been established to implement those changes.
Mr. Cline. In 2016, you all committed to the new
alternative delivery pilots for apprenticeships with the aim of
increasing promotion growth of apprenticeships. What results
have you seen from these pilots?
Mr. Bradley. I can't comment on the specific program. At a
macro level, the number of apprenticeships and those commencing
have been relatively stable. So there has been a halt of the
overarching decline over a couple of decades, but it has been
relatively stable for the last, say, 5 years. But for a pilot
program, I think it is going to be pilot specific, small.
Mr. Cline. Thank you.
I yield back.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
Dr. Adams.
Ms. Adams. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, Ranking
Member Smucker, as well. Thank you for convening this hearing.
And to our witnesses, thank you for your testimony.
I want to congratulate you all for the successful programs
that you oversee in your respective countries, and I
particularly want to recognize Dr. Marti.
The Max Daetwyler Company, a Swiss entity, founded an
apprenticeship program in my district in North Carolina named
Apprenticeship 2000. Folks at Central Piedmont Community
College rave about it, as the students complete associate
degrees in mechatronics as well as journeyman certificate from
North Carolina. And it allows them to immediately work in a
technical field, including some at Daetwyler itself.
So thank you, Dr. Marti, for your work as well as the work
of the Swiss companies that have subsidiaries in the U.S.
With that, I want to ask all three of you about how
employers in your home countries are investing in your
respective apprenticeship programs. I was happy to see that
your models included the requirement of contracts between
employers and apprentices, similar to our registered
apprenticeship system in the U.S.
Dr. Marti, why is this contract so important, and what
assurances does the contract provide to both the employers and
the apprentices in your system?
Mr. Marti. Thank you. Yeah, the contract between the
employer and the apprentice regulates the duration of the
apprenticeship. Of course, the occupation, the salary that
young apprentices get, which is a very modest salary. It is
really small, but it is seen as education primarily. So because
the apprentices are typically very young, this contract needs
to be signed also by a parent. They sign it together, and on
the other hand, of course, the employer.
Ms. Adams. Great. Thank you.
Dr. Annen, I also notice that there are requirements for
wage progression as the apprentice's skills and competencies
increase. So why is this wage progression so important for the
system?
Ms. Annen. I think over the training time--so we have done
a couple of analyses in my institute, and I am happy to send
you the concrete numbers afterwards, but the net cost that an
apprenticeship costs the company is, on average, 11,000 euro,
and that is subtracting the benefits that they get from the
productive apprentice. And, of course, the apprentice gets more
productive over the training period. And it also depends from
occupation to occupation. It differs, because in some
occupations, even the benefits exaggerate the cost that the
companies invest in the apprenticeships. So it depends on the
occupation. And, in general, the investment is very low in
comparison to having a well-skilled and adjusted to what your
company needs trained apprenticeship at the end of those 3
years.
Ms. Adams. Okay. Dr. Marti, can you tell me how the funds
within your apprenticeship systems are distributed and how much
is spent at the federal level, the state level, and what are
the investments in the education system?
Mr. Marti. Of the overall $9 billion, about 5.2 are coming
from the employers. And they are used to pay the salaries of
the apprentices and also to pay the instructors, mainly. And
the money that comes from the cantons, which is a little bit
less than $3 billion, is used to pay the vocational schools,
the teachers in the cantons, because each canton has vocational
schools. So there is also an infrastructure of vocational
schools across the country, and different employers like to
start an apprenticeship if the school is already there.
And the federal government is investing, and I think that
is interesting. They invest also in pilots to further develop
the program to try out new things, and also is commissioning
research into the system, into specific aspects of the system,
in order to gather information for an evidence-based reform,
for instance.
Ms. Adams. So what are the percentages in terms of
expended, the state versus the federal?
Mr. Marti. So, yeah, it is three-quarters of the public
funding, three-quarters comes from the cantons, our states, and
just a quarter from the federal government. Overall, it is 10
percent from the federal government when you include the whole
budget, including what the employers contribute.
Ms. Adams. Okay, great. Thank you very much.
Madam Chair, I yield back.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
Mr. Walker.
Mr. Walker. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Thank you all for being here today. I have enjoyed my time
in Australia, Dr. Bradley, in Sydney, Alice Springs in Darwin.
Of course, I did heed warning of the crocodiles there on the
Darwin Beach and made sure I was staying far clear from that.
I do have a couple questions there for Dr. Marti, if I
could start. I will be introducing legislation to highlight the
importance of expanding access to apprenticeships for high
school students and other populations. As you know, the
Switzerland apprenticeship program is available to students
beginning I believe it is at age 16.
Can you speak to the additional value added to students'
long-term workforce development when they have access to
apprenticeships at an earlier age?
Mr. Marti. I am not sure whether I understood it correctly.
At even an earlier age than 16?
Mr. Walker. Yes.
Mr. Marti. Yeah. I mean, in some cases, apprenticeships
start at age 15. It depends when they were born in the year.
Sometimes when they graduate from compulsory school after
nine--like two kindergarten years and nine school years, they
would start at age 15. And that just works. That is no problem.
I am not aware of younger than 15.
Mr. Walker. Thank you. In looking through your testimony,
was I correct to see that 90 percent of the funding for, you
said, apprenticeships comes from the private sector or from
employers and about 10 percent contributed from the federal
government? Are those numbers correct?
Mr. Marti. It is 60 percent from the employers and 30
percent from the cantons and 10 percent from the federal
government, overall.
Mr. Walker. Can you give me a 20-second description of the
cantons, make sure that for people that are listening or
watching they understand what that is.
Mr. Marti. Sorry?
Mr. Walker. The cantons, c-a-n-t-o-n-s, can you explain
what those are? Are those employers as well? Can you explain?
Mr. Marti. The cantons? I am sorry, the cantons is
basically the equivalent of a State here in the United States.
Mr. Walker. Yes, right. Okay. I am making sure people were
clear in that regard.
Based on these funding proportions, would you say that the
private industry investment in Switzerland's workforce
development is equal to, if not more beneficial, than simply
increasing the federal government's role in the apprenticeship
program? Place the value of the importance. What is more
important here?
Mr. Marti. I think it is a win-win situation. I mean,
employers really have a big interest in investing in
apprenticeships, because that is their future workforce. But
that is also very interesting to see. It is actually beneficial
for them to start apprenticeship programs already during the
apprenticeship. So they invest a little bit more than $5
billion U.S. dollars per year, all employers together in
Switzerland, but they get about $5.6 billion, $5.7 billion out
of it.
Mr. Walker. They will get a good return is what you are
saying.
Mr. Marti. So it is almost more than the stock market.
Mr. Walker. Thank you for that.
I would like to yield my last two minutes to Representative
Virginia Foxx.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you, Mr. Walker. I appreciate that.
You all have alluded and spoken directly, both, to the fact
that employers are very engaged in what is going on.
Dr. Annen, you said that companies deliver 70 percent of
the education that is in the system. You also said a few
minutes ago that there are minimum standards set by the federal
government and then employers can change throughout the year--
is that correct, what you said?--to meet the needs of the
changing economy, technology, those things.
Ms. Annen. Exactly. So the biggest part of the training is
provided by the company, so comparable to Switzerland, it is
like either 3 days or something in company and 2 or 1 day at
school. And, of course, employers have the flexibility; they
can always add more training, more competencies.
As I said before, it is a minimum standard to make sure
that this is at least guaranteed once you get the certificate
at the end. And this is what is also contained in the final
examination, but it depends really on the brand or on the
sector. We have got some occupations who have a very quick
turnover, where we reform them every 3 or 4 years sometimes or
5 years. So it depends on the dynamics of the sector.
And sometimes, as you said, also for Switzerland, they turn
to the Ministry and they are like, okay, we need to adjust the
training regulation and we can't work with this any longer. But
in the meantime, they have the flexibility for sure to do more
training or to do it according to the innovative standards in
the sector.
Ms. Foxx. A real quick question, Dr. Marti: You mentioned
230 fields where there are apprenticeships. Do you have an idea
how many new fields have come in the last 20 years because of
changes in technology?
Mr. Marti. It is difficult in terms of changes in
technology, but I think mainly in the IT field. I don't know an
actual number. But what we also did, we integrated the
healthcare, social care, and arts fields into the regular
apprenticeship system in the early 2000s, but they already
existed before. So this was more a streamlining of the overall
system.
But I would say it is mainly in the IT field, like
mediumistic or an ICT technician. I think those were probably
the fields that were most--
Ms. Foxx. I thought that might be the case. Thank you.
Thank you.
Chairwoman Davis. Mr. Harder.
Mr. Harder. Thank you, Chairwoman Davis.
I represent California's 10th Congressional District in the
California Central Valley, and what I have noticed in our
community is there are a lot of seeds of apprenticeship
programs that are successful, but they haven't quite grown into
the trees that you have in Switzerland or Germany. We have sort
of the beginnings of a model.
There are a couple that I have toured that I really admire.
The National Agriculture Science Center in Modesto; VOLT, which
basically helps train people in the construction industry and
as apprentice mechanics and all the rest.
One of the things that I think I would love to really dive
into is how you got the buy-in both from the government
entities as well as from the employers themselves to invest
such a significant amount in the apprenticeship industry.
Because I view, you know, our model as we know what works; we
just haven't really scaled it up in a lot of our communities.
Dr. Annen, I would love to start with you. Can you speak to
the support of employers in particular? And how do you view the
German model as successful in getting employer buy-in at such a
large scale, $28 billion or more?
Ms. Annen. I would say that in our country, the companies
realize that it is in their own best interests. So they need
the skilled workers and they need the ones that have exactly
the skills that they need in the workplace. And with the
training, vocational training, that is one of the best things
how they can make sure that they have this workforce. And we
need skilled workers especially.
I mean, we have a demand in a variety of--we also need
higher education qualified people, but I think we have got a
big need especially for skilled workers in a lot of fields. And
I think companies have realized that this is a good chance for
them to actually provide these people for themselves and to
train them exactly adjusted to what their needs. And so they
have got a high motivation. It is in their own best interest, I
think. And for the government as well.
I mean, if I may quote Kennedy here, there is nothing more
expensive than education, which is no education. So if you
don't educate the people, afterwards you have way more cost
when the people get unemployed. So that is why it is also in
the interest of the government to invest in education to make
sure that people get an employment afterwards.
Mr. Harder. Thank you. And just to build off Chairwoman
Foxx's question around new occupations. So my understanding is
there are about 327 recognized occupations in Germany. What
happens when there is a new occupation that is added? How do
you build employer buy-in for that?
Ms. Annen. So, first, we try to make sure--we often do
research in advance and we ask. We do surveys and ask if there
is really a need. And we also make sure that it is a long-term
need, that it is not something that is just a short-term demand
which can be maybe regulated in a different way than having a
training occupation. And we also want to make sure that it is a
broad qualification which is needed over time. So that is what
we try to make sure.
And then when we implement it, we also have everybody on
board for it. And there is a lot of marketing from the
chambers, from the umbrella organizations of the employers,
from the trade unions. So they all try to promote this
occupation. And we really check this very seriously before we
try to establish a new training occupation to make sure that
there is a need in the labor market. So once we do that, it is
clear that there is a need.
Mr. Harder. Thank you. I appreciate that.
Dr. Marti, a question about the Swiss model. The other
component here that I think is really important is the
seamlessness of these models where you are actually able to
start as an apprentice and go on and earn a Ph.D., like
yourself.
Can you speak to the importance of a nationally portable
credential that apprentices earn at the completion of their
degree? Can you share why you feel like that has been
successful and how exactly that works?
Mr. Marti. I think a portable degree is very important for
the apprentices, of course, because so they can work
nationwide, and also every employer in the country knows--an
employer in Schierke knows when he or she sees a credential
from Geneva what it is.
And then for the seamlessness of moving into other
pathways, it still, of course, depends a lot on the interest
and aptitude of the young people. It is not that somehow you
are obliged to move on, but still a large percentage of people
do it because of their interest and aptitude, yes.
Mr. Harder. Thank you. I appreciate that.
I think the testimony that I have heard today has really
confirmed the importance of apprentice programs, making sure
that there is more routes to the middle class than just having
a four-year degree here.
And I think that the next steps are for us to make sure we
can understand how to increase investments towards these
apprenticeship programs, how we can create some of those
seamless certification programs that have been successful in
Switzerland and in Germany, and how to really make sure that we
are bringing on our business and industry community to have
some skin in the game as well.
So thank you so much for all your time, and I yield back
the remainder.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
Mr. Timmons.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Thank you to each
of our witnesses today.
I am going to give you my personal experience with
apprenticeships. So I own two businesses, a CrossFit gym and a
yoga studio, and both of them have an onboarding process to get
new coaches. Instructors in the yoga studio, coaches in the gym
are incredibly important, and it takes years to hone your
skill, and you just don't start out that way.
So in the gym, for example, we pay $15 an hour. We
currently have three people in the apprentice--we don't call it
that. It is a coach development program. And after a few
months, they can then become coaches and we can hire them on
full time. And so we have that and it has worked fantastic. We
have developed a lot of great coaches.
I personally have been through two apprenticeship programs,
not in the formal sense, but I was in law school and I wanted
to learn more about the courtroom. I wanted to see lawyers at
work. So I went to a judge and I said, I would like to shadow
you. I would like to be with you for as long as you let me. And
so I did that for a few months and learned a great deal. That
was unpaid.
And then I wanted to be a prosecutor. So I went to the
solicitor and I said--or district attorney, and I said, I
really want to be a prosecutor. I appreciate that I have a lot
I need to learn. And so I went and I ended up working there. I
was paid very little. I worked there for 8 months before he
hired me on full time. So it was great. I mean, I have had a
lot of benefits to these programs where you learn skills, you
develop them to be as competitive as possible in the labor
market.
So, interestingly, none of those had anything to do with
the government. There was no Federal money. There was no State
money. My business just does it because it is best practice.
So I guess my question is, how do you in your countries
find people for these programs? So I have never had any
assistance. I just saw something I wanted to do and then I
found a way to get the skills to do it.
So when someone is in Switzerland, how do they pick? How do
they find themselves in a program?
Mr. Marti. A young apprentice, you mean?
Mr. Timmons. Yes.
Mr. Marti. It is really during the last 2 years of
compulsory school that they start to look into possibilities.
And on the other hand--and this is really why it is a market--
the employers, they want to have the people with the best
aptitude for their field. So they also develop, for instance,
tests. Often, the employers, they would ask you to try to pass
a test, an exam in their field before they would consider
hiring you.
Mr. Timmons. So when you are in school, the counselor just
says, you have paths now and what do you want to do? And you
take a test and then you find the best fit?
Mr. Marti. Usually, you do that already before you
graduate, like in your last year--like, you sign the
apprenticeship contract usually in your last year of compulsory
school. And before you can sign that contract with the
employer, the employer usually asks you to take a test that is
typically, in many cases, developed by the company itself. I
believe smaller companies, they share tests that are developed
by other entities, but larger companies, they develop their own
exams.
Mr. Timmons. So is it government-run or is it business-run?
Does the market dictate the outcome or does the government
dictate the outcome?
Mr. Marti. Those exams and also the decision to hire an
apprentice, that is the decision of the employer. And, of
course, we have public and private employers. And a Ministry in
Switzerland typically also trains apprentices. A public
hospital would train apprentices. A public university would
also train apprentices. But primarily, it is private, private
sector.
Mr. Timmons. If you are a doctor, we have what is
essentially an apprentice program. After you graduate medical
school, you have to go and serve in a learning capacity first.
So is that called an apprentice program as well or is it
different for professional degrees?
Mr. Marti. Like residency?
Mr. Timmons. Yes.
Mr. Marti. I mean, no, that is in the higher ed part of our
education system. But you are right, in a way it is also dual
in the sense that it is practical after theoretical studies,
but it is clearly not an apprenticeship system to be a medical
doctor. But a nurse, for instance, that is an apprenticeship.
Mr. Timmons. The other two witnesses, similar, last 2 years
of compulsory school you are driven into one of these programs
or further education. Is that fair to say?
Mr. Marti. You look exactly what fits you, and then you
would start a healthcare worker apprenticeship after graduating
from compulsory school. Exactly.
Mr. Timmons. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
Chairman Scott.
Mr. Scott. Thank you.
Thank you Madame Chair. I want to thank all of our
witnesses. This is some very good information and will help us
in our work designing apprenticeship programs.
Let me ask you. The first question--I don't know this is
aimed at--normally you would graduate from high school in
America around age 18.
Is that the case in your countries?
Ms. Annen. I think in Germany compulsory full-time
education is 9 to 10 years, so year around 15, and then it is
another three years of compulsory part-time education and then
you can do, if you are at a grammar school, for example, you
can do you're a levels or if you are in a vocation school, it
depends on which school you choose afterwards. But it is
standard.
Mr. Scott. Well, if you join--if you sign up for an
apprenticeship, do you lose any of your otherwise available
high school education?
Ms. Annen. If you--can you repeat--
Mr. Scott. If you sign up for an apprenticeship, is that in
lieu of completing your high school education or in addition to
your high school education?
Ms. Annen. So, if you sign up for an apprenticeship, you
need to have fulfilled the 9 to 10 years of full-time
education; and, afterwards, when you sign up for an
apprenticeship, you go to vocational school 30 percent of the
time and that is your compulsory part-time education.
So, you are doing this while you do the apprenticeship. You
are fulfilling your part-time compulsory education. You invest
three years of training.
Mr. Scott. So that you would--you would get a high school--
do you get a high school diploma and then your high school?
Ms. Annen. So, after apprenticeship, you get three
certificates. You get one from the chamber which is the
official recognized certificate. You get one certificate from
the company which tells people how you performed in the
workplace. And you get one certificate the from the vocational
school, how you did in the vocational subjects and the general
subjects.
So have you three certificates at the end of an
apprenticeship which one is from the school that you went to.
Mr. Scott. One of the concerns about vocational education
is at some models it is in lieu of what you would normally get
in high school, and there are a lot of people that believe that
if you don't get the complete high school education that you
will be very much at a disadvantage if you later try to switch
jobs. You need the basic education and that the apprenticeship
or vocational education ought to be in addition to that.
Mr. Bradley, can you comment on that?
Mr. Bradley. So, in Australia your compulsory education I
think is for 10 years and then they follow 2 years which the
vast majority undertake are technically optional. You can begin
an apprenticeship while at school and still complete the final
2 years of your high schooling where you will end up with the
equivalent of a high school diploma.
Mr. Scott. But the apprenticeship does not diminish your
otherwise compulsory education?
Mr. Bradley. No, I would say it adds to it.
Mr. Scott. You mentioned, Mr. Bradley, a concept that I
think we call stackable. That is, when you get a credential, if
you go a little further, you can add to that credential. Can
you say a word about why that is important?
Mr. Bradley. Sure. So, I think the two upsides, I suppose,
to this, to stackable credentials, one, it is recognized as
past learning. So, once you have completed a program and your
competency level is to a certain extent, then the next
qualification that you undertake you will receive credit for
past learning and past activities.
And, two, I would say that it gives you a path out as well.
So, if you are committing to a three-year diploma or two-year
diploma, if, after 6 months, a year, 18 months, you decide it
is not for you or if you have another opportunity in front of
you, it is not lost time. You are still walking away with some
qualification, some credential that is recognized for your
time.
Mr. Scott. Are there some apprenticeships for jobs that
traditionally require a four-year college degree?
Mr. Bradley. Not to my knowledge. So, after an
apprenticeship, you will receive the equivalent of at most a
diploma which is the--
Mr. Scott. Some jobs in finance or something like that, you
traditionally get a four-year college degree.
Mr. Bradley. Not in the formal sense, not what I would call
an apprenticeship. That would be, once you have done a four-
year degree or the equivalent of sorts, certainly I think, you
know, workplace learning is going to be a very significant part
of where you go to next and from economic society to finance,
of course, all those fields.
Mr. Scott. Do either of the witnesses have apprenticeships
for jobs that traditionally require a four-year degree?
Mr. Marti. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Scott. Okay. Thank you.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
Before we go to the next questioner, I want to go to Dr.
Foxx who has an introduction to make.
Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much, Madame Chairman.
I have a program called Teacher in Congress where every
year I bring two teachers up to shadow me for about 10 days,
and the two teachers who are here from the 5th District are in
the audience today. They are Jody Carpenter and Justin Colbert,
and I just wanted to recognize them. They are both teachers in
the public schools in the 5th District, and they are here to
see how Congress works behind the scenes.
So, thank you, Madame Chair, for allowing me to introduce
them.
Chairwoman Davis. Do they want to stand?
Ms. Foxx. They are standing back there.
Chairwoman Davis. Okay. They are there. Great.
Thank you very much for being here.
Okay. We are going to go next to Mr. Levin.
Mr. Levin. Thank you very much, Madame Chair. Thanks for
having this hearing.
It is extremely important, the role apprenticeships can
play in our workplaces, and I really want to talk about where--
why young people would be interested in this and I want to ask
questions about that.
Before, I would like to ask permission to enter into the
record an article or really a program from PBS NewsHour about
the need for more tradespeople after all the focus on four-year
colleges. Okay. All right.
[The information follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Levin. So, you know, Dr. Annen, I wanted to ask you
about why young people would want to do this. There is a huge
emphasis in this country about free college, everyone should go
to college. The assumption is a four-year degree is the ticket
to a decent life.
And I don't think there is any economist that has a model
of the economy that would require more than, generously
speaking, 60, 65 percent of people to have a four-year degree.
There are lots of other jobs that we need filled.
But speaking from your experience, evidently one in two
compulsory school graduates choose a vocational pathway, if I
have that right, or something like that in Germany.
What factors would you say make apprenticeships more
appealing for students to choose a vocational pathway in
Germany?
Ms. Annen. Yeah, I think in Germany that the system itself
has a very good reputation. So, it is very broadly known by the
society and very well-accepted; and also we have counseling,
like, in Switzerland, like, there are the chambers. There is
our employment agencies. So, people actually know about this;
and they don't know only about higher education as an option
after they finish their general education so and also the
income that they can make during the apprenticeship and also
what they can earn afterwards if they do further training.
So, I know a lot of people who actually were able to have a
good career that pays just as much as if you would have a
master degree, some comparable higher education qualifications.
And we have also done some research about this. So, over a
lifetime it might be that higher education pays off a little
better but you make the money earlier in your career and it
depends on the further and the continuing education and the
willingness of yourself to do this lifelong learning. So, it
brings you into employment very early; and it is very
attractive.
Mr. Levin. Do the minimum standards include wage standards
in your minimum standards of your apprenticeships?
Ms. Annen. We want to do this in our actual reform. So,
actually at the moment the minimum wage is not valid for
apprentices but now we are doing a reform and that is what we
want to implement in the next year that minimum wage is also
applied to apprentices.
Mr. Levin. Thank you.
Well, let me ask any of you who wish to respond. You have
talked about that your Federal national regulations and laws
that govern your apprenticeships are updated. How often are
they updated, and what have recent updates to the legislation
or regulations in your respective countries sought to achieve?
So, here you are mentioning raising the wages. What other
things have you been doing to update your, you know, your
apprenticeship programs whether in Australia or Switzerland or
Germany?
Ms. Annen. If you are talking about the Vocational Training
Act--
Mr. Levin. Yes.
Ms. Annen.--in 2005.
Mr. Levin. Sorry.
Ms. Annen. It is like if we see problems with the
examinations or if we see problems with certain target groups,
application, education, we try to adjust this. Talking about
the training regulations, it depends, as I said before, on the
occupation, so how dynamic the sector is. So, we are regularly
updating this. It is something between I would stay 5 and 10
years when we update them, depending on the occupation.
Mr. Marti. Thank you.
Yeah, it also depends what we are talking about like the
broader reforms that take place probably every couple of
decades. Like we had the last one in the early 2000s when we
further streamlined the system and integrated professions that
were previously not part of the apprenticeship model like in
healthcare for instance.
But for each of the those 230 occupations, we update them
every 5 years at least, often also earlier because usually it
is because of technological change.
Mr. Levin. And that is at the Federal. You are at the
national level.
Mr. Marti. Yeah, it is always at the national level; but,
of course, a company, an employer, they could decide to do
more.
Mr. Levin. Right. Well, I guess I am out of time.
But I would just point out that, you know, what you
describe as minimum standards are really quite high standards
and it is impressive to me as somebody who needs to help, you
know, make the laws of our country that you all, each of your
countries maintains very high standards for apprentices to make
sure that they get a great education and have a great standard
of living afterwards and that is something we can aspire to
here.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you, Mr. Levin.
Mr. Trone.
Mr. Trone. Thank you, Chairwoman Davis and Ranking Member
Smucker, for holding this very important hearing.
And thank you to the witnesses for being here.
As a former employer with over 7,000 team members that
worked for my company, my favorite area is Human Resources and
that is unusual for an entrepreneur but being part of the Human
Resources invested in people and what you folks are doing in
entrepreneur--apprenticeships in Europe is just phenomenal. We
were out yesterday at the Plumbers & Gasfitters Local 5 and
they are doing very similar work that is excellent and it is
Earn-While-You-Learn, as Ranking Member Foxx spoke about
earlier, and the folks, of course, leave with zero debt. Very
impressive. So, we need to clearly learn from the European
model and all your countries.
But what has been done at the Federal level to ensure equal
access so everybody can participate regardless of gender,
disability, age, or race? Whoever wants to go first.
Ms. Annen. I will just start.
So, I think for especially for disabled people or for
people with migration background, we have got special programs
in place to make them ready and to provide kind of trainability
to them so that they have the language skills that they need
and that they also have the general education background to
access an apprenticeship. So, we tried to include those people.
Mr. Trone. Dr. Marti.
Mr. Marti. Thank you.
So, over all currently, we have the problem overall that
there are many more apprenticeship positions open than we have
people who would fill them. So in a way I think that makes this
problem a less difficult one, but at the same time I think we
have the biggest challenge is probably with immigrants from
countries that do not know apprenticeship models. So, they are
not really aware of it to the extent people would be aware of
it whose parents come from a country that knows apprenticeship.
So, there I think it really play as big role during the
last 2 years of compulsory education to convince them of the
value for themselves, for them after graduating from compulsory
school.
Mr. Trone. Could you also speak to the various ways the
Swiss VET system is fully embedded in Switzerland's overall
education system and maybe share some successes and challenges
you face in that system?
Mr. Marti. Yeah, so it is fully embedded in the sense that
you can move around in it like, for instance, you can do an
apprenticeship. Then you can add what we call vocational
baccalaureate that grants you free access without exam to
University of Applied Science, but you can also do the
opposite. You can go to academic high school where you
typically would continue your pathway towards research
university, but you realize that University of Applied Sciences
would be much more interesting. In that case you first would
need to get practical experience because otherwise it would be
disadvantage compared to people with an apprenticeship
background at that University of Applied Sciences.
So it works both ways, and it happens both ways that people
move around in that system.
Mr. Trone. All right. The Trump administration established
a task force to study apprenticeships; and they recommended we
put apprenticeships opportunities in every high school in
America, which I think is a damn good idea.
So, what are the specific steps your countries have taken
to lead such high school participation? Because nothing has
happened here. What should we be doing to look at moving this
forward?
Mr. Bradley?
Mr. Bradley. So, nationwide we--all high school students
have an opportunity to participate in a schools-based
apprenticeship in the final two years of schooling. So, that is
students in the Years 11 and 12 are able to access that
program. We have just completed a review of the sector
mobility, to get back to your earlier question.
We are looking to move the Australian VET system to what we
are calling a more modern applied fast-paced alternative to
classroom-based learning; and part of that is reforms. It is
about providing clear secondary school pathways to
apprenticeships, to vocational training, and also greater
access for disadvantaged Australians as well.
Mr. Trone. Quickly, Dr. Annen.
Ms. Annen. I think in Germany it is based on we have a
broad agreement between the federal states and the federal
government to promote vocational education and training and it
is a complementary system where schools feel responsible for
the educational part and where they also invest to make sure
that people are provided with the best possible education in
both learning venues.
Mr. Trone. Okay. Thank you very much.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much.
Okay. I want to note for the subcommittee that
Representative Fred Keller of Pennsylvania is permitted to
participate in today's hearing, and I recognize him for five
minutess.
Mr. Keller. Thank you, Chair Davis.
And thank you to the panel for being here today.
Just a couple of questions and whoever would like to go
first on the panel may.
Wondering about perspective students and how they are
recruited by apprenticeship programs for--are they--by the
apprenticeship programs or the employers, do they recruit the
students?
Ms. Annen. In Germany, they are responsible for their
recruitment themselves and, as I said, the chambers at the
organizations of the business sector, they have information and
counseling services for the young people in place and also our
employment agency has but responsible--are also the companies
are responsible to hire them and to do the contract with them.
And earlier it was asked about the standards. So basically
in our law--you don't need a general educational certificate to
start an apprenticeship, although the business is the limiting
factor. So, the companies decide whom they want to hire and
whom they think has the trainability and whether they think
they can complete a successful apprenticeship with those
people.
Mr. Keller. Thank you.
So that would mean that the people that want to be
apprentices would have to qualify with the businesses?
Ms. Annen. They have to apply at the company and then the
company will have an assessment with them and they decide which
ones they want to hire and whom they want to offer a training
contract.
Mr. Keller. So it is not just basically open to anybody
that wants to learn that skill or that job.
Ms. Annen. It is not like--we have got a lot of--like in
Switzerland we have got a lot of not-filled apprenticeships
places and occupations where they are maybe not that popular
and we have got some occupations where there are more people
wanting to learn those job than we have apprenticeship places.
Mr. Keller. So you have people that want to learn
something, but nobody has picked them up in that apprenticeship
program.
Ms. Annen. That can happen.
Mr. Keller. Anybody else on how yours work?
Mr. Bradley. So, a small adjustment to that as well, I
suppose. So, there is a model in which you can, the employer
will be responsible for entering into a contract with an
apprentice and take them on as an apprentice. Through our group
training model, group training organizations act as an
intermediary.
So, it can be a community group or an industry-led group
which will take on a cohort of apprentices and then place those
apprentices with employers on a project-by-project specific
needs, seasonal work as required.
Mr. Keller. Okay. Dr. Marti, anything different?
Mr. Marti. Thank you.
No, I think it is similar as in Germany that they apply.
The students, after compulsory education or in the last year of
compulsory education, they apply with companies; and companies,
however, they also advertise a lot because they want to have
the best talents.
Mr. Keller. Okay. So do you track the individuals as far as
any kind of diversity or so forth that go through the
apprenticeship programs, or is it just basically based on who
is qualified and who they select to go through these?
Mr. Marti. The Government does not interfere in that
application process. That works between the students and the
employers but it is true that some students, they have a--for
instance, they would like to go to a profession where there are
a very limited number of apprenticeship slots open. So, what
they would do often is they would go to look for a bridge year
maybe--
Mr. Keller. Okay.
Mr. Marti--like a tenth school year, for instance, where
they would work also specifically on some of their weaknesses
in order to--they would see what could they improve to get to
an apprenticeship that they would like to do. Sometimes they
would reevaluate their options and apply for another
apprenticeship.
Mr. Keller. Okay. I thank the panel.
And I yield back my time. Thank you.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
Mr. Guthrie.
Mr. Guthrie. Thank you very much.
And I am so sorry. I had another hearing that was dealing
the opioid crisis and fentanyl and other things that are
happening to our young people that we needed to be there and I
apologize for not being here for the discussion but this is
important, positive things that we can look at, how we are
going to train our young people.
Chair Davis and I had been real interested in the Swiss
model. We studied a lot of the Swiss model; and what
apprenticeships here, a lot of it is kind of focused on more
blue-collar, technical skills which we absolutely need and have
absolutely fantastic careers in doing so. The problem that we
have talked about going back and forth is just the kind of the
perception here that is what apprenticeships are and that is
kind of what they are here and the Swiss model is seeing people
who are bankers, who are--it was apprenticeships were pathways
to professional careers as well.
Specifically I know of an instance in a Nestle lab where
people, where they had teenagers, high school, what we would
call high school in apprenticeships programs learning how to
make protein, I guess, dehydrated, transportable so they could
send that to Africa and they were going to be lab
professionals, not in the technical skills which, again, before
I go any further, those are absolutely honorable, great jobs
and we need more of them in our country.
But could you talk about just kind of the professional
apprenticeship? You may have already and I apologize if you had
but I am real interested in kind of the pathway where it seemed
like after what we would call our freshman year of high
school--I know it is not equivalent--but essentially people
would continue on a pathway of more of an academic career and
it seemed like two-thirds or maybe 60 percent of the Swiss
citizens would go in the apprenticeship program and, like I
said, lead to all kind of careers, not just construction trade
and those types of things.
Could you talk about that?
Mr. Marti. Thank you very much.
Yeah, I like to do that. So, yeah, it is 230 very different
fields usually; and they are rather comprehensive, however.
Like we don't have, for instance, an apprenticeship, a youth
apprenticeship in accounting. This would be part of a
commercial employee apprenticeship, for instance, in banking or
insurance where you learn many other skills than just
accounting, for instance, and, yeah, you see that in other
fields as well and, yeah, maybe I can--
Mr. Guthrie. Well, just want to comment on how
apprenticeships are equivalent or prestigious viewed as the
Swiss society. I think one question was: How did you get over
the hump can you be a professional and not have to have a four-
year degree from a college university? And somebody made the
comment that was kind of what Switzerland always does, kind of
the guild system. It goes back several hundreds years. So, we
don't have that same kind of--
Mr. Marti. I think it is prestigious also when you see that
we have quite a consistent percentage of about 68, 67 percent
participating in it. So, yeah, it is more the demographics
currently that created the situation where we have many more
apprenticeship positions open.
Mr. Guthrie. I promised Mr. Smucker I would give him some
time but so about a third of the U.S. has four-year degrees and
you are saying 65 percent go to apprenticeships?
Mr. Marti. Yeah, two-thirds go to apprenticeships.
Mr. Guthrie. Two-thirds. So what we are trying to do is we
have a system that--that we are not focusing on two-thirds
going to apprenticeships but still only a third are getting
college degrees.
So, I will yield to Mr. Smucker. So, you-all seem to have a
good handle on it is my point.
Mr. Smucker. Thank you.
This has been a fascinating discussion. It has been hard to
say quiet here. I have had a lot of questions. So, I am going
take this opportunity to thank you Mr. Guthrie.
I want to follow up first the line of questioning that Mr.
Levin asked earlier which I thought were some very good
questions in regards to how we think here about a baccalaureate
degree versus going directly to the workforce through some
earn-to-learn program.
That is changing. We have for decades told our students
that, you know, the only pathway to the workforce is through a
four-year degree. It was a disservice. It was a mistake. We are
gradually changing that and certainly here we understand the
value of apprenticeship programs and other earn-while-you-learn
models and I think it is changing in the country as well.
But I'd like to drill down a little. In the students that
do not go to a four-year degree, students that go directly to
the workforce, they are still a large percentage here in the
United States that are doing that but not doing it through an
apprenticeship program. So, there are a lot of different
pathways. It may be they walk into an employer and the employer
has their own internal training. It may be through a career in
technical school where they go for two years and then enter
into the workforce.
I am curious in your countries you may have to answer this
later; I am running out of time--but in your countries is there
still a percentage of the workforce that does not go to a four-
year degree but enters the job--the workforce through some
other pathway other than an apprenticeship program? Are we
going to have time for that--
Chairwoman Davis. Yeah, I think, Mr. Smucker, if we can go
to Ms. Wild and then we will come back--
Mr. Smucker.--thank you.
Chairwoman Davis.--to you and continue with that--
Mr. Smucker. Keep that in mind for later.
Chairwoman Davis.--that would be great or I am going to get
in trouble here.
So, I want to turn to Ms. Wild and we had recognized her
earlier that she is not on the subcommittee but we had given
her permission to join us for five minutes. Thank you.
Ms. Wild. Thank you, Madame Chair.
And thank you to the panel for being here. This is a
subject of great interest to me which is why I am here, even
though I am not on this subcommittee.
Dr. Annen, I am happy to say that in September I will be
visiting Germany which is the country of my birth. I haven't
been there for a very long time but one of the things that I am
hoping to do while I am on that trip is to visit some of the
manufacturers who have locations in my district in
Pennsylvania, of which there are several, and to learn more
about the apprentice programs that are utilized there, because
I think they are so incredibly important. So, I am going to
direct this question to you.
But if either of the other two witnesses would like to
chime in, I am happy to hear from any one of you.
One of the greatest concerns we have in this country, I
think, and probably in most countries is that we have a lot of
industries that are dying and being taken or being replaced by
newer technologies and newer developments in those kinds of
industries.
And I guess my question is this. How do you incorporate the
need to employ--to educate people in those new, upcoming
industries, number one, and bring them into the apprenticeship
program if they are perhaps part of an industry that is on its
way out or a part of a dying industry? That is number one, that
is part of my question.
And the other is, you know, I feel really strongly we can't
just focus on younger people as the future of work and what do
we--I am trying to understand more about what we do to help
people who are middle aged but still very much a part of the
workforce and who have to voluntarily or involuntarily
transition to a new industry.
So, I will stop and see what kind of response you might
have for me on that.
Ms. Annen. So, yeah, I think that the innovation, the
technological change is something that will highly affect every
labor market across the globe and we are also facing this in
Germany and we are seeing that over time there are some
occupations where we need to abolish them because they are no
longer needed and we have to also train those people into other
fields and make sure that they are provided the skills that
they actually need which companies already do, which is not
necessarily highly regulated.
And we also have big opportunities regarding continuing
education which is a very low bar in Germany. So, there is no
training necessary needed. So, if you have done workplace
learning, if you have acquired competences in an informal way,
that is also something that provides you with the skills that
you would need and for passing those examinations related to
those certificates, you would not necessarily need to go into a
training course.
So, we try to keep it as flexible as possible also for
older people who have learned doing their work, during their
work in the company so that they can also get a certificate
that actually contains those skills and we are trying to work
as closely together as we can with the companies and we do a
lot of research and this so we try to figure out as early as
possible. We do projections in which fields we might have the
biggest needs and also try to develop the training regulations
as early as possible to keep track of this.
Ms. Wild. So, if I understand what you are saying then,
people would be trained while still in whatever their industry
might be, that it perhaps is not going to be an industry of the
future, to evolve into a worker who can service a newer,
upcoming industry without downtime?
Ms. Annen. Yeah, I think as an industry for me IT is a good
example. You do not necessarily have people, older age, people
who work in IT nowadays who have the formal qualifications in
this field because it just didn't exist before.
And now they are formalizing it over time and, the younger
people, they have this formal training in the field. And we try
to keep it up to date as good as possible. But there are
dynamics in the companies and in the sectors that just evolve
naturally and that we try to formalize afterwards sometimes.
So, that is how we approach this.
Ms. Wild. Thank you. That is very helpful.
You probably know that we have a lot of discussion here in
the space of climate change and renewable energies and that
kind of thing, and then we have got people working in the
fossil fuel industry who need to transition into new forms of
employment without suffering a real interruption to their
economic well-being. So, your information is very helpful.
Thank you very much.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
And now I turn to Mr. Smucker for your five minutes.
Mr. Smucker. So, again, my question is the students who are
not going to a four-year degree, who are in the workforce
through some sort of career and technical training or through
on-the-job training, how important in each of your countries is
apprenticeship as a part of that and how many--how many
students are involved in apprenticeship programs as opposed to
other on-the-job learning programs?
Mr. Bradley. I have some figures here. So, we roughly have
about--we roughly have about 260,000 apprentices in the system
at the moment compared to I think it is about just short of a
million or just a million in higher ed. So, granted, higher ed,
it will have a longer duration; but that is relatively the
proportions.
There are, of course, those that choose not to do either.
They go straight into the workforce or have a gap year, have an
extension as well.
Mr. Smucker. So you are saying straight into the workforce
rather than through an apprenticeship program?
Mr. Bradley. Yes.
Mr. Smucker. How many would have you of them?
Mr. Bradley. I don't have those figures in front of me. I
am sorry.
Ms. Annen. I also can't tell you the exact number for
Germany but I think it is a very big political discussion in
Germany and we also try to put measures and approaches in place
that recognize this informal learning that these people have
acquired so that we have the option.
For example, within the apprenticeship we have the option
of a so-called external examination where you can apply once
you have done--you have learned in the workplace one and a half
time as long as the regular apprenticeship is and you can prove
that you have this practical experience and then you can also
challenge exam can and you get the certificate afterwards so
that it is not necessarily that you directly enter through the
formal route.
Mr. Smucker. How about in Switzerland?
Mr. Marti. In Switzerland, we actually measure it at age 25
and there we see that two-thirds have an apprenticeship degree
and 25 percent have a general education degree like academic
high school, baccalaureate, and so overall 91 percent, 91
percent have some--have an upper secondary degree. So, 9
percent don't have that of the age cohort.
Mr. Smucker. Yeah. The reason I ask the question is all of
your systems obviously place more value on apprenticeship
programs as opposed to other--as opposed to what we do here.
More people are involved, more industry is involved, and more
students involved. And I guess if I am the student one of your
systems, what is the value of an apprenticeship program, of
being part of a registered apprenticeship program, as opposed
to on-the-job learning to some other form? Why would I choose
an apprenticeship program?
Ms. Annen. I think, once you have the certificate, you are
very mobile on the labor market and you actually have something
that proves what skills you have acquired and also regarding
collective wage agreements, once you have the certificate, you
are able to receive a certain amount of money as a salary which
you are not necessarily if you are considered as an untrained
or whatever worker. So, that is an advantage.
Mr. Smucker. Sure.
Does anyone else want to address that?
Mr. Marti. Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, I think the degree to which you receive training and
education during apprenticeship is so much more comprehensive
than if you would just learn on the job because it is dual. You
learn all the theoretical background of all the things that you
do in an applied way, and those are the applied. Like the
practical part is very structured. We also have intercompany
courses that are a mix.
So, in a way it is not just dual. In the way it is three
places where you learn, it is the vocational school, it is the
employer where you participate in actual work streams, and then
it is intercompany courses where you learn practical methods in
a more systematic way. And when you would learn on the job, you
would miss out on all of that.
Mr. Smucker. I think that is great.
One of the barriers here--and I am curious how each of your
countries handle it. If I am a new company who has not
participated in apprenticeship programs before, it can be a
rigorous process to get approved for an apprenticeship program
within an individual company. It is a regular existing
apprenticeship program but not for that specific company.
How do each of your systems handle that?
Ms. Annen. So, in Germany the chambers take care of this
and they make sure that the whole facilities in the company
allow to train the recommended standards that are written down
in the training standards; and also they have a qualification
for the trainers, the in-company trainers, to make sure that
they are personally and professionally able to train those
people.
And so we have some quality assurance measures in place to
make that sure and also chambers providing support companies
and getting ready to do apprenticeships.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much, Mr. Smucker.
Now I am going to go for my five minutes and we are going
to try and summarize after that and maybe ask an additional
question if we have one.
I wanted to really turn to this whole issue of stakeholders
and, because as I understand it, you have a oversight from
stakeholders, from businesses, as well as the state. Can you
help us understand a little bit more about how that is
integrated and where, you know, whether they--I guess just how
important that is. Because, as you have heard, we sometimes
think if that you have standards, then you have regulations
which could overwhelm businesses.
And I know that, you know, we are looking now at the
industry-recognized apprenticeship programs. We don't have the
answers to that. I wouldn't ask you to even define that at this
point because there is still a lot of details that haven't been
really brought forward.
But who controls all of this? You know, how do you make
sure that the people who are providing some oversight in the
different occupations, where do you find them; and how do they
mesh with the state system?
Ms. Annen. Well, I think--
Chairwoman Davis. Without explaining the bureaucracy and I
guess the question is: Is it a great big bureaucracy? Because
what we're grappling with is how do you do this in a simple
enough way that people are invested in it, businesses are
invested, they don't feel overwhelmed by it, whether it is
going to make them crazy. How does all of that come together?
Ms. Annen. I think in a short-term perspective maybe it
would be easier for each company if they just see that there is
a need and they just adjusted themselves in the short
perspective.
But over long-term they actually, they get the advantage
that they have a broad skilled workforce in that branch once we
have these regulated established standards and so it is in
their own interest. Once they want to recruit other people,
they know exactly what they can expect; and they have a broader
opportunity to get young people who are skilled for their own
companies.
And also it is a lot about this vocational identity that we
create with this apprenticeship. It is like the rules concept
what we have in Germany, this occupation, I think, that is a
very important component in our system and that is something
like we can almost call it a brand. It is like, if we want to
abolish an occupation, it is most of the time that trade unions
and employer organizations, we can't give up on this brand.
Chairwoman Davis. Maybe just to interrupt you at this
point.
So, what happens if one of the occupations, if somehow the
program is not doing well, do these stakeholders close it down?
What would they do if they felt that the apprentices were not
being protected, that they were getting good value for their
time? Can they do that?
Mr. Bradley. I wouldn't say it is a question of oversight.
I think the way industry plays a role is it is about, it is
about providing inputs, advice more than oversight per se. We
do monitor and evaluate through our research organization in
TVR in terms of surveys of employers and apprentices, what was
their experience like, are they meeting the needs of the
industry and so on.
So, we are closely monitoring that. We have what is called
an Industry Skills Council which is set up for different
sectors which then provide a formal mechanism to provide the
input and advice to government to say this his working, this is
not working, we need to change things.
Are they able to shut it down per se? No. I think it is
going to be more a question of apprentices voting with the
fetal firms, voting with their feet, and walking away from the
system. It is a competitive process.
Chairwoman Davis. Can I ask you quickly just about--we know
trades has obviously been involved here for a number of years.
What role do unions play? How does that work?
Ms. Annen. Within the process of establishing a training
regulation, so I think in Germany it is very important that we
have this agreement between the social partners so that both
think that this actually a broad qualification that is--there
is a long-term need and that is a big interest for the trade
unions, that it is not these narrow qualifications which are
just short-term, because they want to make sure that people are
qualified for the future and that they have broad opportunities
afterwards once they go through an apprenticeship like this.
Chairwoman Davis. Yeah. Perhaps, Dr. Marti, you want to
comment on that. If you could include in your question quickly,
we obviously put a greater premium on colleges and
universities. I mean, that is kind of what students around
parents want.
So, what about the prestige factor for parents? I am
assuming that because you have the standards, then people know
that they can count on that, that is going, the end result, if
you will, is going to be positive in terms of job and the
ability to raise a family, et cetera.
Am I correct in that or is there something else that we are
missing in terms of prestige factor for families?
Mr. Marti. Yeah, it is a good question.
The roles of parents is also important, of course; and we
observe that plays, of course, the family background plays a
big role in what pathway young people choose.
So, we do see that, for instance, when both parents or one
parent has an academic background, the probability that their
children is taking the academic route, like, towards university
is higher. That is true.
Chairwoman Davis. Okay.
Mr. Marti. And vice versa also.
Chairwoman Davis. Yeah, thank you.
Mr. Smucker, do you want to summarize or ask more
questions? Go ahead.
Mr. Smucker. I do have two questions.
So, one, I mentioned earlier we have graded our schools by
how many of their students went to university rather than
through directly to a career through an apprenticeship program
or otherwise.
How do your schools think about this? And I will just say
it in the context in the district that I represent there are
some really great new partnerships developing between the
schools, the secondary schools, and businesses where students
are moving directly to the workforce maybe through an
apprenticeship program and schools are beginning to really
value that, as opposed to all students going directly to a
four-year degree.
So, I am just curious how your schools think about such
things?
Ms. Annen. So, I think that it is both equal opportunity.
So, I didn't mention our qualification for it but it has also,
like in Australia, it has eight levels and you can choose the
vocational route and you can choose the general, higher
educational route and you can just end up in the same positions
in the labor market and you can also reach degrees which are on
an equal level. So, it is, like, it is not equal.
The contents are not equal but it is on an equal level and
we look at it like it is equal opportunities and it also has
the same career perspectives.
And there is permeability between the systems; and people
take those routes, vice versa. So there is permeability in the
system. It is not like I would say one thing is better than the
other. They are different, and they also have different
advantages and disadvantages so.
Mr. Smucker. Is that similar in Australia, Mr. Bradley?
Mr. Bradley. I would say it is a work in progress. It is
having the similar kind of issues around stigma that you are
experiencing here. There is a strong dominance of university/
higher education over vocational pathways, so much so every
year the high school certificate results are celebrated and
these are the results of these schools, of these high schools.
This is where their students are going. That is public. A big
fanfare is made of that.
Mr. Smucker. Sure. Dr. Marti, rather than answer that,
since I am close to running out of time, the other barrier I
have seen in those partnerships is that we have labor laws that
prevent students under 18, 16- to 17-year-olds sometimes from
participating in workforces where they are around machinery. It
is something that I have heard back from employers in my area
who would like to have students participating in what we call
pre-apprenticeship programs at our high schools but are
prevented from doing so because of some of those what I think
are outdated laws.
Do you run into that in Switzerland at all? You mentioned--
one of the takeaways I think that I heard today is that all of
your countries get students involved in apprenticeship programs
at an earlier age than we do here. So I am curious whether that
is an issue?
Mr. Marti. Yeah, I remember that there was an issue when we
had more people entering apprenticeship already at age 15. I
think we needed to change something there and adapt a little
bit, but at age 16 I am not aware of problems.
Mr. Smucker. Okay.
Mr. Marti. Also, yeah, I think that is--that works.
Mr. Smucker. Yeah, I think we need to--one of the things we
need to do here is look at our rules and laws around that and
perhaps make some changes to make that access to the workforce
easier at a younger age but that is a discussion for another
day.
I only have a minute or so. So I do want to just finish by
thanking each of you for taking the time to be here today to
share your perspectives, share your best practices. I can tell
you for myself this was very useful to hear your experiences
and your perspectives. So, this was invaluable.
I would like to thank the Chairwoman again for scheduling
this hearing. We all want to see the skills gap shrink and see
the needs of our local communities and employers met; and in
order to do that, we must encourage flexibility in the system.
We must encourage employer-led innovation.
So, I was particularly encouraged to hear today about the
potential that can be realized when not just your governments
but all the stakeholders--students, employers, educators--are
brought into this promise really of apprenticeships. Students
and families should never feel stigmatized for taking a path
that is best for them. They should be free to choose among
different types of education on the pathway to a permanent job.
Sharing and learning from the best practices of those
around us, like yourselves today, is even more important in
today's rapidly evolving economy.
So, again, I particularly appreciate the opportunity to
hold this discussion with you today.
Thank you.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you very much, Mr. Smucker.
And to all of you, again, I wonder if you could just take
just your breadth of experience for a moment, maybe this is a
cautionary tale or something different, but I am just wondering
if you, having heard, you know, this discussion today and the
number of the questions--and obviously we have a very different
system here the on some levels and we are trying to figure out
do we have to change at all or can we incorporate more
apprenticeships, scale these apprenticeships across many, many
different careers in our system or do we need to make some
changes.
But I wonder, you know, is there one or two pieces of
advice that you have, in closing, whether it is advice about
something that has worked especially well in your system in
terms of whether it is innovation or the schools design or
something for us to avoid doing? What is that cautionary tale
that you might like to offer to us as we close?
Dr. Annen would you want to--
Ms. Annen. My recommendation would just be to look at the
government and at the business community as partners that work
together for one goal which is providing, yeah, good
apprenticeships and good qualified training to young people;
and that is in both interests, in the government's interest and
in the business and the company's interest.
And I think in general this principle of consensus is
really one thing that makes it very successful because we have
people together onboard within the whole process, and that is
what I would recommend.
Chairwoman Davis. Uh-huh. Great.
Mr. Bradley.
Mr. Bradley. I guess we are all talking about skill
shortages here and my response to that is that it has to be
easy. You know, we are out there, begging for employers to come
to the table; and we need to say to them here is an apprentice
that will be of value to your firm and to the work that you are
doing.
So, it needs to be as streamlined as possible, as utilities
as possible to bring them into the system and to show the value
of what is being done and flexible. So I would say do have a
look at our group training model in a bit more depth and how
that provides access to small firms, to medium firms, as well
as large firms on an as-needs basis.
Thank you.
Chairwoman Davis. Thank you.
Dr. Marti.
Mr. Marti. Thank you. Yeah, from the Swiss experience I
would like to, yeah, focus on those three main features I
mentioned earlier. I think the labor market orientation is very
important to keep it relevant, to have relevant
apprenticeships. And the partnership of the different
stakeholders is important for a well-functioning system, that
it works reliable and seamlessly.
And finally also the permeability I think is very important
for the perspective of everyone and for the dynamics because we
don't know what kind of labor market we will have in 10 years
or 20 years.
Chairwoman Davis. Yes. Thank you.
Thank you very much because we are also thinking about the
future as well as the present. We need help and support in
both.
And, again, I want to thank you very much. I think you all
have identified the major themes that we are questioning, you
know, on how we can work in perhaps a new way to make this work
for many more students who would not have the ability to
probably, you know, go to a friend's business perhaps and just
ask for a job. I mean, this is something on a scale that really
has such benefit, I think, in the long run; and we want to do
that.
So, I know that we want to ensure that apprenticeship
opportunities in the U.S. are not relegated to alternative
pathways either and be a value, a competitive and a rigorous
pathway for all students to reach their full potential.
So, we thank you very much. Again, thank you for your
travel; and we look forward to having further discussions.
And we are adjourned.
[Additional submissions by Mr. Bradley follow:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
[Whereupon, at 12:42 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[all]