[House Hearing, 116 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] [H.A.S.C. No. 116-24] EXAMINING THE ROLE OF THE COMMANDER IN SEXUAL ASSAULT PROSECUTIONS __________ HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY PERSONNEL OF THE COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED SIXTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ HEARING HELD APRIL 2, 2019 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] __________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 36-885 WASHINGTON : 2020 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY PERSONNEL JACKIE SPEIER, California, Chairwoman SUSAN A. DAVIS, California TRENT KELLY, Mississippi RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona RALPH LEE ABRAHAM, Louisiana GILBERT RAY CISNEROS, Jr., LIZ CHENEY, Wyoming California, Vice Chair PAUL MITCHELL, Michigan VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas JACK BERGMAN, Michigan DEBRA A. HAALAND, New Mexico MATT GAETZ, Florida LORI TRAHAN, Massachusetts ELAINE G. LURIA, Virginia Jamie Jackson, Counsel Dan Sennott, Counsel Danielle Steitz, Clerk C O N T E N T S ---------- Page STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS Kelly, Hon. Trent, a Representative from Mississippi, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Military Personnel..................... 3 Speier, Hon. Jackie, a Representative from California, Chairwoman, Subcommittee on Military Personnel................. 1 WITNESSES Bapp, Angela..................................................... 12 Christensen, Col Don, USAF (Ret.), President, Protect Our Defenders...................................................... 5 Darpino, LTG Flora, U.S. Army (Ret.)............................. 14 Elliott, LCDR Erin, U.S. Navy.................................... 9 Hannink, VADM John G., USN, Judge Advocate General, U.S. Navy.... 36 Hanson, Nelli, Product Support Manager, U.S. Air Force........... 10 Haring, COL Ellen, USA (Ret.), Chief Executive Officer, Service Women's Action Network......................................... 7 Lecce, MajGen Daniel J., USMC, Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant of the Marine Corps, U.S. Marine Corps.............. 39 Pede, LTG Charles N., USA, Judge Advocate General, U.S. Army..... 34 Rockwell, Lt Gen Jeffrey A., USAF, Judge Advocate General, U.S. Air Force...................................................... 38 APPENDIX Prepared Statements: Bapp, Angela................................................. 89 Christensen, Col Don......................................... 50 Darpino, LTG Flora........................................... 99 Elliott, LCDR Erin........................................... 71 Hannink, VADM John G......................................... 119 Hanson, Nelli................................................ 80 Haring, COL Ellen............................................ 59 Lecce, MajGen Daniel J....................................... 145 Pede, LTG Charles N.......................................... 107 Rockwell, Lt Gen Jeffrey A................................... 132 Speier, Hon. Jackie.......................................... 47 Documents Submitted for the Record: Senator McSally Letter to the Acting Secretary of Defense.... 161 Witness Responses to Questions Asked During the Hearing: [There were no Questions submitted during the hearing.] Questions Submitted by Members Post Hearing: Mrs. Luria................................................... 173 Ms. Speier................................................... 165 EXAMINING THE ROLE OF THE COMMANDER IN SEXUAL ASSAULT PROSECUTIONS ---------- House of Representatives, Committee on Armed Services, Subcommittee on Military Personnel, Washington, DC, Tuesday, April 2, 2019. The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:00 p.m., in room 2118, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jackie Speier (chairwoman of the subcommittee) presiding. OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JACKIE SPEIER, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM CALIFORNIA, CHAIRWOMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY PERSONNEL Ms. Speier. Welcome to the Military Personnel Subcommittee of the Armed Services Committee. This is a very important issue that we are going to discuss today. I have been fighting this epidemic of sexual assault in the military since 2011. We have made meaningful, if fitful, progress addressing the scourge. Survivors have more resources, and there is more accountability for some commanders who would prefer to sweep assaults under the rug. We have also made important changes to the legal process so that it more closely resembles the civilian justice system. Commanders can no longer unilaterally throw out convictions. The ``good soldier'' defense is gone, though one of our witnesses suggests not all commanders are following the law. And survivors don't have to suffer through excruciating Article 32 processes that require them to endure up to 48 to 72 hours of cruel cross-examination, absent normal legal checks. These reforms have undoubtedly made the system better for survivors and more credible overall. Yet, assault rates remain far too high, nearly 15,000 in fiscal year 2016; and reporting rates perilously low, only 32 percent that year. The experience of some survivors is better, but it is not good. More service members trust female and male survivors when they report assaults or harassment. But a culture of endemic retaliation and doubt persists. Forty-five percent of all students who reported assault at the military service academies suffered from ostracism. Too many of our service members live and work in toxic cultures, characterized by pervasive, unrelenting harassment and assault. Victims of sexual assault spend the rest of their lives coping with the mental and physical after-effects of their attack. Perpetrators often get off scot-free, get promoted, and collect accolades. Many survivors resign from service, humiliated and dejected. I believe the Department and services care about fixing this problem. I just think they have tied their own hands by refusing to admit current efforts aren't working. Incremental solutions are not good enough. Something here is fundamentally broken, and we need to act, and act urgently. Reforming the system requires balancing justice for survivors, the rights of the accused, and commanders' abilities to build effective units with diverse and inclusive cultures and minimal sexual assault. I am convinced finding this balance must involve keeping decision-making in the military but transferring the decision to try special victims cases from commanders to an independent prosecution authority. Our allies in the United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, and Israel already exclude commanders from sexual assault prosecutions, and it works. Giving a special prosecutor this responsibility would make it easier for survivors to receive just outcomes, reduce aimless prosecutions, and allow commanders to better focus on addressing and improving their units' cultures. A special prosecutor would be better for survivors. Survivors would know that an authority not influenced by conflicts of interest, readiness concerns, or outside perceptions, would decide whether to prosecute their cases. Too often those factors, not legal concerns, drive the military criminal justice process. There are countless cases of commanders abusing their power to issue favorite subordinates wrist slaps, ignore victims' preferences for trial jurisdiction, or who are culpable themselves. Senator McSally's commander raped her. No one in her chain of command should have decided whether her case was prosecuted. Limiting the commanders' legal role would encourage more survivors to report, to trust the system, and to believe that, no matter the outcome of their case, they had been given a fair shake. A special prosecutor would also be better for the accused. Over the last few years, I have heard the commanders never countermand their lawyers when the recommendation is to try a case, that the commander brings charges in every case in which a survivor wants to proceed. I have heard the commanders are trying cases that district attorneys would never touch. Those are not signs of a healthy system. They are signs of a system that has overcorrected, in which the pendulum has swung wildly to an opposite extreme. Most years, less than 5 percent of sexual assault cases are referred to court-martial, and of those cases, only 20 percent result in successful convictions. Clearly, many commanders are far better at trying cases to dodge political pressure than they are to doing the hard work of referring charges when it is most appropriate. That approach wastes time and money, and makes the system less credible. I don't want the military to try a case every time a survivor names a perpetrator. I want the military to believe the survivor, provide them the resources they need, and investigate the offense. If there is sufficient evidence to prefer charges, then charges should be preferred. I trust military lawyers to make that determination far more than I trust commanders. Commanders would also be freer to fight sexual assault if they didn't also serve as convening authorities. In a string of recent decisions, the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces has raised the specter of unlawful command influence in a shocking number of sexual assault cases. They have thrown out convictions because the court believed the commander compromised proceedings by preferring charges or choosing jury members in response to political pressure. Having commanders make prosecution decisions jeopardizes convictions. And commanders' awareness of this legal risk limits their ability to vocally and actively stamp out sexual assault in their units. Loudly opposing assault today can get a conviction thrown out tomorrow. If a special prosecutor instead determines whether to try cases, it would remove those risks. Commanders could trade something they are not experts in, making legal decisions, for what they do very well, setting tone and expectations. Commanders could more freely build and enforce their unit cultures, while still being held accountable for fixing the problem. Senior commanders could mentor their subordinates on the front line to help them fight the problem without worrying about legal ramifications. This isn't a slippery slope. It is the way to strengthen the foundation of military criminal justice. Today, we will be joined by two panels, including three brave women who will tell us about their experiences reporting their sexual assaults, and the way their chain of command responded when they did. I encourage my colleagues to learn about their experiences and how the commander's role in the justice system complicated the legal response. These survivors will be joined by outside military legal experts. I am interested to hear what they view as the military justice system's strengths and weaknesses, responding to sexual assault, and changes they would propose. After a quick break, we will be joined by the top judge advocates from each service. I will be eager to hear how they think commanders can participate more effectively in the military justice process, especially given recent rulings about unlawful command influence. Before I introduce our first panel, let me offer Ranking Member Kelly an opportunity to make his opening remarks. [The prepared statement of Ms. Speier can be found in the Appendix on page 47.] STATEMENT OF HON. TRENT KELLY, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM MISSISSIPPI, RANKING MEMBER, SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY PERSONNEL Mr. Kelly. Thank you, Chairwoman Speier. And I have been blessed beyond belief. I have commanded at the brigade and higher levels. I have also been a district attorney elected duly by the people. So I have prosecuted. I have sent sexual predators to jail for consecutive life sentences without parole. One sexual assault is too many. One that goes unaccounted for is too many. That being said, we don't need to throw out the baby with the bath water. People, commanders, can make an impact at the level. We need to ensure that we give that. There are bad commanders and there are good commanders; there are more good than bad, but when there is a bad commander, there are actions that can be taken against that commander for the things that happen. Each of our witnesses today, thank you so much for being here. I want you to know, you are brave, brave women. Thank you so much for your service to this great Nation, and for you coming here today to testify before this panel. I especially want to thank all the survivors of sexual assault for their bravery. The UCMJ [Uniform Code of Military Justice] has evolved significantly over a 75-year history, but the past 10 years have seen particularly significant changes. From dramatically improving victim rights to establishing new sexual assault offenses, the UCMJ has experienced substantial improvement. Notably, the 2007 NDAA [National Defense Authorization Act] contained the most comprehensive overhaul of the UCMJ in over 50 years, the result of a multiyear study by the military justice working group. In fact, these extensive reforms were just implemented on January 1 of this year. Clearly, much work remains to ensure every sexual assault perpetrator is held accountable. However, I would caution against additional major changes to the commander-centric justice system, when we have not even seen the results of the reform instituted just 90 days ago. There can be no doubt that the problem of sexual assault remains one of the most challenging and persistent issues in society. As a former district attorney who has prosecuted sexual offenses, I can attest that these horrific crimes have a long-lasting impact on both the victims and the community. But I can also tell you from personal experience, that the answer to solving this problem in the military does not lie in attempting to replicate the civilian prosecution system, where less than 0.5 percent of sexual assaults will ever result in a conviction. I have been inside a grand jury. I have seen grand juries not indict on one person's word against another, when they should have. I have seen lawyers, district attorneys, who would not take a case to trial for fear that they might lose because they are worried about being re-elected, and they are worried about losing. Congress has established multiple independent commissions to study sexual assault in the military, and specifically, the role of the commander in prosecution. And I want to thank the chairwoman and others on this committee for their role in establishing them. Not one of these independent panels, however, has recommended removing the commander. In fact, one of those panels, the response systems panel, included former Democratic Congresswoman Elizabeth Holtzman and Ms. Mai Fernandez, a civilian prosecutor and executive director of National Center for Victims of Crimes. Both Representative Holtzman and Ms. Fernandez came to the panel believing that removing the commander sounded right. But after hearing from hundreds of expert witnesses and reviewing the data, both changed their mind. Representative Holtzman said that ``if removing the commander and putting the power in the hands of prosecutorial bureaucracy would make a difference, I would be saying junk it.'' We can't have the present system, but we haven't seen any evidence of that. Three weeks ago, one of our former Military Personnel Subcommittee colleagues spoke on this subject. Senator Martha McSally bravely came forward to tell about her experience of sexual assault in the military. In a subsequent letter to the Acting Secretary of Defense, she stated, ``I strongly believe we cannot take responsibility away from the commanders due to the unique roles commanders play in culture, readiness, good order and discipline, and mission.'' Senator McSally went on to call for the Defense Department to establish a task force to look for meaningful and immediate changes to improve sexual assault prevention and response. Madam Chair, I fully support this task force and ask that Senator McSally's letter to the Acting Secretary of Defense be made part of today's record. Ms. Speier. Without objection, so ordered. [The information referred to can be found in the Appendix on page 161.] Mr. Kelly. As a former commander and district attorney, I know that sexual assault is a scourge on both the military and society as a whole. But from both a military and legal perspective, I am convinced that removing the commander from the process will not help the root issue and will likely undermine the process. I am committed to working to find meaningful, effective solutions to this problem. I look forward to hearing from today's witnesses about how to do that. Thank you, and, Madam Chair, I yield back. Ms. Speier. Thank you, Mr. Kelly. Each witness will have the opportunity to present his or her testimony, and each member will have an opportunity to question the witnesses for 5 minutes. We respectfully ask the witness to summarize their testimony in 5 minutes. Your written comments and statements will be made part of the hearing record. We will begin by welcoming our first panel: Colonel Don Christensen, United States Air Force, retired, president of Protect Our Defenders; Colonel Ellen Haring, U.S. Army, retired, chief executive officer of Service Women's Action Network; Lieutenant Commander Erin Elliott, U.S. Navy; Ms. Nelli Hanson; Ms. Angela Bapp; Lieutenant General Flora Darpino, U.S. Army, retired. With that, Mr. Christensen, the floor is yours. STATEMENT OF COL DON CHRISTENSEN, USAF (RET.), PRESIDENT, PROTECT OUR DEFENDERS Colonel Christensen. Chairwoman Speier, Ranking Member Kelly, distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you to examine the role of the commander in sexual assault prosecutions. I am glad you are holding this hearing on this topic, as the role of the commander is greatly misunderstood. I believe the common misconception is that all commanders have prosecution authority, which is entirely not true. Prosecution authority vests in a tiny subset of commanders called convening authorities. Convening authorities are the only commanders who have the traditional prosecutorial authority to send a case to a court- martial, to add or dismiss charges, or to approve a pretrial agreement or a plea bargain. Based on recent changes to law, convening authorities are the only ones who can dispose of a sex assault or rape case. To put this in perspective, the DOD [Department of Defense] has around 14,500 commanders. But only 393 commanders have general court-martial convening authority, and only 139 actually use this authority to convene a court, according to most recent DOD data. In other words, less than 1 percent of all commanders exercise prosecution authority for the most serious level of court. Approximately 600 special court-martial convening authorities referred a special court, or about 4 percent of all commanders. I bring these numbers to your attention because it is important to understand that despite what you may hear today, prosecution authority is not integral to being a commander. Ninety-five percent of the commanders do their job every day without the ability to send anyone to a court-martial. These commanders have a wide range of tools to allow them to set and enforce discipline. They can do this through nonjudicial punishment, administrative counseling, discharges, ordering pretrial restraint and confinement, and issuing protective orders. The commanders without convening authority have the greatest impact on a disciplined force, because they are the commanders the rank and file work directly for and know. Convening authorities are many layers removed from the rank and file and may be geographically separated by thousands of miles. Moreover, the reality is, courts-martial are almost never used for purely discipline issues, such as disobedience and AWOL [absent without leave]. Instead, over the last 230 years, courts-martial have transitioned to an almost exclusive process for prosecuting common crimes. By this, I mean conduct that would be both a crime in the military and a crime in civilian society. Additionally, the use of courts-martial has and is plummeting. According to the most recent data from the Department of Defense, in fiscal year 2015, the entire military convened less than 2,000 general and special courts. That is for all crimes, not just sex assault. This is a dramatic drop from fiscal year 2000, when the military prosecuted almost 5,000 special and general courts. Despite the military only being 4.65 percent smaller, general courts fell 31 percent, and special courts plummeted 73 percent. If we look back to fiscal year 1990, the drops are even more dramatic. That year, the military prosecuted almost 10,000 special and general courts. In the late 1950s, the Army alone did almost 50,000 courts a year despite being the same relative size as it is today. It is clear that the military has transitioned away from the court-martial as a discipline tool to a criminal justice process. Yet, the military has demanded that nonlawyer convening authorities retain control of a process they are simply not qualified to administer. The ABA [American Bar Association] has set out a clear standard that the prosecution decision should be made by lawyers admitted to a bar and subject to ethics standards. The reason for this standard is obvious: Only lawyers are qualified to act as prosecutors and make prosecution decisions. The military's insistence that convening authorities are more qualified is indefensible. There is nothing inherent to command that qualifies someone to make prosecution decisions. Someone does not become qualified to make prosecution decisions from PowerPoint briefing and talking to their staff judge advocate any more than they are qualified to perform surgery because they have taken a Red Cross course. It is time to accept that the practice of law is a profession [in] which commanders should not be engaged. And in my remaining time, I would just point out, Ranking Member Kelly, only one of the three panels has actually looked at the role of commander. The Judicial Proceedings Panel refused to look at that issue. And the current DAC-IPAD [Defense Advisory Committee on Investigation, Prosecution, and Defense of Sexual Assault in the Armed Forces] has not yet addressed the issue. And with that, I look forward to answering any questions you may have. [The prepared statement of Colonel Christensen can be found in the Appendix on page 50.] Ms. Speier. Thank you, Mr. Christensen. Ms. Haring. STATEMENT OF COL ELLEN HARING, USA (RET.), CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, SERVICE WOMEN'S ACTION NETWORK Colonel Haring. Thank you for allowing me to make remarks today on this important topic. I am the CEO [chief executive officer] of the Service Women's Action Network. I retired from the Army in 2014 after 30 years of military service. I am a West Point graduate, and I have degrees--I have a master's degree in public policy and a Ph.D. in conflict analysis and resolution. I have taught at the Army's Command and General Staff College, the Army War College, and Georgetown University. My research and work focuses on women and gender in the military. I commanded two Army units, the last at the brigade level, during my military career. During my very first Army assignment, one of my soldiers was murdered, and I closely watched as the criminal investigation and subsequent conviction unfolded. But at the unit level, we had no involvement in the investigation. Later, one of my soldiers was charged with selling drugs in the barracks. He was immediately locked up in pretrial confinement, and the only thing that we did was make health and welfare visits to ensure that he was being properly treated. Years later in 1997, when I was a major stationed in Hawaii, I was assigned as the investigating officer in three rape cases. I am not an MP [military police officer], a CID [U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Command], or JAG [Judge Advocate General], and I have no training in how to investigate a sex crime. Although I found the three soldiers who had been raped to be credible victims, the perpetrator, an NCO [noncommissioned officer], was eventually reassigned to another unit. I juxtapose these experiences to illustrate the very different ways the military has approached how felony crimes have been handled over the years. Sex crimes against women have never been treated with the same level of outrage or professionalism as other serious crimes. Fortunately, and to the credit of Members of Congress, the Army no longer allows an untrained officer to investigate cases of rape. But other problems persist. First, while military officers and those selected to command receive a great deal of training, they have little legal training. Having taught at the two Army's premier service colleges, I can tell you that their legal training is superficial at best, and only senior-level commanders have JAG officers assigned to their staffs to advise them. And these JAG officers are generalists, they are not prosecutors, and they don't have expertise in sex crimes. Furthermore, the JAG officers assigned to senior leaders are always junior and subordinate to the commanders that they advise. This means that they are evaluated and rated by their bosses and are therefore subject to command influence. They are not independent, nor are they experts in sex crimes. Second, at SWAN [Service Women's Action Network], we hear from and work with survivors on a daily basis. Their stories are always similar. If they decide to come forward and report, they are generally not believed. They are seen as creating a problem where none existed before. And they almost always suffer retaliation. They consistently tell us that their commanders failed them in profound ways. As a former commander, I can tell you that I would not want to have to decide if or when to move forward with the investigation of a sex crime because I know that my knowledge and expertise is limited in this area. In fact, in any criminal area. Furthermore, there are simply too many possible conflicts of interest for commanders to be the best decision-makers in sex crimes--in sex crime cases, not to mention the fact that there are commanders themselves who have been perpetrators. Finally, the next panel is going to sit here and say that commanders must stay in the decision-making process in order to maintain good order and discipline, a nebulous concept that they won't first define. However, all of our European allies, as it has been pointed out, have removed their commanders from the decision-making process, but good order and discipline has not melted away in their military organizations. The panel will likely tell you that the U.S. military is exceptional and cannot be compared to our allies. If we are so exceptional, then why must our commanders have a degree of authority over their subordinates that our allies don't need, in order to maintain the same level of good order and discipline? At SWAN we support removing commanders from the decision- making process, because doing so will send a signal that there are certain crimes for which they are not qualified to make decisions on. Culture is ultimately at the root of our sexual assault problem in the military. Sexual assault is simply not seen as a serious crime. Until it is viewed as a serious crime and treated as a felony, it will continue to pervade our culture. Removing commanders from the decision-making process sends the signal that there are some crimes that are so severe, that commanders have no place in deciding if, when, or how they are prosecuted. I believe that will fundamentally shift how we view sexual assault and ultimately impact our culture in a way that says this behavior is absolutely unacceptable. Thank you. I look forward to your questions. [The prepared statement of Colonel Haring can be found in the Appendix on page 59.] Ms. Speier. Thank you, Ms. Haring. Lieutenant Commander Elliott. STATEMENT OF LCDR ERIN ELLIOTT, U.S. NAVY Commander Elliott. Good afternoon, Congresswomen and Congressmen. Thank you for inviting me here today. I appreciate the opportunity to speak about my experiences and share my thoughts. I have been in the Navy for little more than 14 years now, and have served on six different ships and lived around the country and the world. In August of 2014, someone who I considered a close friend raped me. It was an extremely traumatic experience, one that nearly destroyed me. Initially, I made a restricted report. I did not want my commanding officer to know, nor did I want law enforcement involved. I spent months in shock, and the only way I made it through was with the support of my good friends in the SAPR [Sexual Assault Prevention and Response] team. As I progressed in my healing, working through the PTSD [post-traumatic stress disorder], anxiety, and depression I was diagnosed with because of the assault, I moved to a new command with a new commanding officer, and I began to consider changing my report from restricted to unrestricted. I was very lucky at my new command. I had a wonderful commanding officer and a great work environment. When I decided to change my report to unrestricted, I had the amazing support from my commanding officer, someone I consider the best leader I have ever known. He went above and beyond what was required of him in the situation. Unfortunately, I would learn through my experience and through listening to other victims' experiences, that this support is not the norm. While I did not expect everyone to be the great leader he was--or he is, I did expect to be treated with the same dignity and respect he showed me, and I was not. When I moved to a new duty station overseas, to become a commanding officer of a warship myself, it was made immediately apparent to me that the fact I was a sexual assault survivor was a burden and inconvenience to my bosses, and the upcoming court-martial for the person who raped me was a hindrance to them. Due to appeals regarding a decision the presiding judge in the case made, when I reported to my new command, it was unknown when the court-martial would happen. One of the first things my new boss said to me regarding the court-martial was, ``Well, I hope it is not during an important part of the ship's life,'' which all I could think is, ``Well, next time I get raped, I will try to plan it better.'' This is the first of multiple comments that my boss has said to me, that not only revictimized me and were extremely insensitive, but made me seriously question continuing to move forward with the case. One of the most degrading and humiliating occurrences was when my boss was forwarded a copy of the NCIS [Naval Criminal Investigative Service] report that discussed intimate details of the assault. I was called into his office, where he told me he had received and just read the report. After he handed it to me and I read it, I very seriously considered dropping the case, as I did not want my boss reading about my vagina. And when I left my ship for a few weeks to be at the court- martial, my boss told me how he had to temporarily relieve someone in command for several months because they had had cancer and needed to get treatment. He told me he would much rather go through what I am going through than have cancer. I can tell you, after being diagnosed and treated for breast cancer last year, I would much rather go through that than through an assault. Upon returning from the court-martial, nothing within the command environment got better. I was humiliated, ostracized, outcast, and ridiculed from people of every rank. There were multiple events for commanding officers that I was not invited to attend. My ship was given unfair scrutiny magnitudes greater than what any other ship was. What nearly broke me, what was almost as bad as the assault itself, my personal information regarding the assault was divulged to my peers, including counseling information I had only discussed with my bosses, who would then use it to humiliate and demoralize me. If I could have gotten out of the Navy at that point, I would have, but I was in a contract and could not. As commanding officers in the Navy, we are given a 3-day legal course in preparation for our tours. I was by no means a legal expert, but was equipped to deal with the minor infractions that affect good order and discipline. It is my belief, not just as a military sexual assault survivor, but as a former commanding officer myself, that some infractions are so grievous, so heinous, that they must be elevated to a higher level than just command level. Sending sexual assault cases to trained military judges shows just how seriously this crime is taken, that we will not allow perpetrators to get away with this crime, and it reinforces to countless victims that they will be taken seriously. Additionally, victims will feel more comfortable coming forward, knowing their bosses will not be reading the intimate details of the assault. Thank you for your time, Congresswomen and Congressmen, for allowing me to share a small piece of my story with you today. [The prepared statement of Commander Elliott can be found in the Appendix on page 71.] Ms. Speier. Thank you, Lieutenant Commander Elliott. Ms. Hanson. STATEMENT OF NELLI HANSON, PRODUCT SUPPORT MANAGER, U.S. AIR FORCE Ms. Hanson. Thank you, Chairwoman Speier, Ranking Member Kelly, and distinguished members of a subcommittee, for the opportunity to speak to you before today as a victim of military sexual assault and harassment. I am Nelli Hanson, product support manager for the Air Force. I have dedicated my career to serving our country, first as a United States Marine, and then as a civil service Air Force employee. I have always believed in my work and dedication to our United States military. And I still do. But when I followed the military procedures for reporting my sexual assault, the system failed to protect me and provide me with the justice that I and all Active Duty and DOD employees deserve. I have been stationed all over the world, to include Japan, the Pentagon, and Gunter Annex in Montgomery, Alabama. I arrived at Gunter in 2014 as the director of logistics. I developed a close working relationship with the colonel, who would eventually become my assailant. The working relationship started out as professional, but by the following spring, the colonel had started to relentlessly sexually harass me. I did my best to keep things professional by ignoring his lewd texts, inappropriate behavior, and ensuring I was never alone with him and telling him multiple times to stop. Eventually, he physically assaulted me, and I reported it to my civilian Senior Executive Service supervisor. My supervisor instructed me to file a report with the Air Force's Sexual Assault Response Coordinator. A day after I filed the sexual assault complaint against the colonel, I received a text message from him, admitting to his misconduct, and conceding that he abused his position of power over me. I followed the procedures, but it only made the workplace hostile. I noticed that I was treated differently by my colleagues and my supervisor. I was left off of important meetings and emails, further straining my career. Once the Air Force investigation was underway, I was told by my general that several media inquiries had been made. I was informed that he planned to give the media a watered-down version to make them lose interest. I protested. If anything should be released to the media, I said, it should be my assailant's official charge sheet. I wanted the assailant to be held accountable for his actions and not have his inappropriate behavior downplayed. But the general ignored my wishes. Even worse, the general gave his same watered-down statement to my fellow colleagues and Air Force staff at Gunter, further discrediting my report. I requested that the general transfer the colonel to a neighboring base so that I could continue to do my job, but he refused. Instead, the colonel was moved only two buildings away, to the logistics division, where I performed portions of my daily workload. Based on these series of events, I realized the general's interest was to protect his colonel, with complete disregard to me. The general offered to transfer me to a new location. This meant I would have to transfer my children out of a community they loved, a strong church family, a great school, and a community they loved. At the time of the report, I was on the cusp of being promoted to GS-15. But because keeping my current job had become unbearable for myself and my family, I was forced to relinquish the promotion and transfer to Eglin Air Force Base in Florida to start the healing and rebuilding process. As for the colonel, the investigation showed that he self- admitted to sending over 400 text messages, sexually graphic voicemails and photos, and using his position of power as intimidation. Unlike, perhaps, many sexual assault cases, the evidence here was overwhelming. To my special victims' legal counsel, I made it clear that any action taken against the colonel should include a finding that he sexually assaulted me. The general ignored my wishes and allowed my assailant to retire honorably from the Air Force. At every turn, the Air Force went out of its way to shield him from the consequences of his misconduct and let me endure his punishment. After my assailant was allowed to walk away scot-free, I was informed that the Air Force considered the colonel's character and record of military service in making his disposition determination, which I understood is a violation of the law. I am rebuilding my career and making a home for my family in Florida, but I have lost faith in the system that I have devoted my life to. I followed protocol and expected to be treated fairly. Instead, I was humiliated and ostracized for being a victim of a predatory supervisor. And ultimately, my assailant was allowed to retire with honor, against my express wishes. I will hope that you will reconsider the inherent conflicts of interest in allowing my chain of command to make legal decisions, and I urge you to critically examine the role of the commander in sexual assault prosecutions. Thank you for the opportunity to speak to you today, and I look forward to answering any questions you have. [The prepared statement of Ms. Hanson can be found in the Appendix on page 80.] Ms. Speier. Thank you, Ms. Hanson. Now, Ms. Bapp. STATEMENT OF ANGELA BAPP Ms. Bapp. Chairwoman Speier, Ranking Member Kelly, distinguished guests, thank you for the opportunity to speak before you today as a survivor of military sexual assault. I am here to share my story and to shine light on the systemic failures that made justice impossible in my case. I graduated from the top 3 percent of my class at West Point and soon after arrived at Ft. Rucker, Alabama, to begin my career as an aviation officer. Throughout my flight training, I became close friends with a mentor and fellow flight school classmate of mine who was going through a divorce. He arrived at flight school married to an officer who was given a leadership role in our battalion. After some time, his wife became my company commander. In a completely unrelated situation, a different flight school classmate of mine sexually assaulted me. When it occurred, my classmate was the only one who I trusted enough to tell what had happened to me, to discuss filing a report, and to care for my well-being. I knew that making an unrestricted report in order to hold my assailant accountable would mean that my commander would be notified and automatically involved in matters of my sexual assault. That was enough for me to delay reporting by several days. Despite the potential personal conflict, I trusted in her professionalism and in the system's ability to treat an issue such as sexual assault with pure objectivity. My trust was misplaced. The sexual assault occurred on a Sunday, and I reported it the following Tuesday. On Friday, I was informed that Ft. Rucker's criminal investigative division was investigating me for adultery, with my commander's husband, not even 3 days after I reported my sexual assault. My commander's position of authority gave her immediate access to the higher levels of my command, my prosecutor, the investigators, and my cadre members. Prior to my report, my commander contacted the prosecutor who would eventually be assigned to my case about her personal business, seeking advice for a private investigator to investigate her husband. When her husband came forth as a witness in my sexual assault case, the prosecutor linked my case to my commander's personal situation. My commander also had a preexisting relationship with the installation commanding general, the two-star convening authority responsible for deciding if my sexual assault case would go to trial. She requested his audience about matters of her divorce prior to my sexual assault investigation concluding. This, too, I believe, hurt my case's ability to move forward to trial. Unfortunately, I did not have a unit commander who was able to serve in the best interest of a sexual assault victim, due to these and several other personal conflicts. The inherent conflict of interest in my chain of command made it impossible for me to have a truly objective case. Ultimately, my case did not move forward because the system failed to provide me with a conflict-free process I deserve. As for me, I was given a general officer memorandum of record, which was filed in my permanent record and effectively ended my career. A subsequent Army internal investigation into Ft. Rucker found that the command subordinate relationship in my case showed an obvious conflict of interest, which led to a lack of lower-level command support for me, and confirmed my complaint of feeling isolated. While the finding confirmed what I already knew, it does nothing to give me my career or life back. I am sometimes asked what we can do together to address military sexual assault within our ranks. First, we need to believe victims. Believing a victim does not mean charging or convicting the innocent. But the systemic fallacy of victims making false reports and accusations needs to stop. As a survivor, I was plagued by this false belief, based on my personal circumstances with my commander's husband. It is absolutely disgusting and absurd that this belief is so common. Commanders absolutely have a role in addressing sexual assault within their unit. They are still responsible for the good order and discipline, along with decency and respect that comes from their soldiers. We need to encourage our commanders to act more when they can, and not expect them to be professional law authorities and experts on the psychological complexities of sexual abuse. We need to raise our commanders to speak up and to take action when insensitive or misogynistic comments are made, and reward them when they do. In my experience, those who utter sexually inappropriate remarks are more likely to commit acts of sexual violence. If my assailant had been reported on the spot for every misogynistic or sexual comment, he would have been out of the Army long before he had the opportunity and access to rape me. All I ever wanted to do is to serve my country, lead American soldiers, and fly the Apache helicopter. The loss of my military career and my inability to trust larger organizations, such as our military, has deeply impacted who I am today. I struggle with accomplishing even minor daily tasks, and my quality of mental and emotional health has greatly deteriorated. I deserve better, and the Army lost a warrior. I am hopeful that my testimony here today will aid this committee in continuing to fight the scourge of sexual assault within our ranks. Thank you again for your time, and I will be happy to answer any questions you may have for me. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Ms. Bapp can be found in the Appendix on page 89.] Ms. Speier. Thank you, Ms. Bapp. Ms. Darpino. STATEMENT OF LTG FLORA DARPINO, U.S. ARMY (RET.) General Darpino. Thank you, Chairwoman Speier, Ranking Member Kelly, other members of the committee. I am Flora Darpino, and I support---- Ms. Speier. Have you turned on your microphone? General Darpino. I am on? Ms. Speier. You are on. General Darpino. I did the gratuitous ``thank you all'' for inviting me here today, and I just wanted to let you know that I am Lieutenant General, retired, Flora Darpino. I served over 30 years in the Army. I had important military justice positions. I also was a staff judge advocate at the two-star, three-star, and four-star level, and twice in a combat zone. Prior to my retirement in 2017, I had the honor of serving as the 39th Judge Advocate General of the Army. The military often has problems translating our concepts into plain English, and so I want to just take a minute to explain what it means by good order and discipline, command authority, and accountability. A commander is often equated with a parent. A commander, like a parent, is responsible for everything regarding their soldiers. Commanders must ensure that their soldiers are fed, clothed, and housed, just like a parent. They are responsible for their soldiers 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, just like a parent. And like a parent, they are responsible to hold their soldiers accountable, when they do not follow the rules. So as a parent, when you set curfew at midnight, and your son comes home at 1:00, you meet him at the door and you inform him that he is grounded for the weekend. You ensure good order and discipline in your home, and you do that by having disciplined that individual and hold them accountable. Now, imagine if you as a parent had the authority to--did not have the authority to ground your child. You would meet him at the door and you would state, Son, you broke curfew, tomorrow morning I am going to go next door and ask the lawyer if I can ground you. That is what happens when you set the responsibility for good order and discipline from the ability to hold someone accountable. Now, that is not a perfect example, but it is just to give you an idea what we mean when we say good order and discipline, and the ability to hold someone accountable, and how they are inextricably intertwined. Pulling authority for court-martials away from commanders does not just affect a small number of commanders as previously stated. First, Congress has withheld the authority to convene general courts for very serious crimes, to a level where we have commanders that have extraordinary experience, and they are advised at every step of the way, by extraordinarily experienced staff judge advocates. That is a good thing. But, commanders at each level exercise court-martial authority. At the lowest level, that authority may be exercised through the preferral of charges that are forwarded up the chain of command to the appropriate level to convene a court. Even with nonjudicial punishment, a commander seeking to impose it does so with a commitment that they will try the offenses at a court-martial, should the soldier decline the Article 15 nonjudicial punishment. So pulling court-martial authority from commanders affects every level of command. Additionally, proposed legislation that I have looked at includes broad swaths of crimes, classic indiscipline offenses such as barracks larcenies, serious fights between soldiers, drug offenses. And, again, while some would argue a commander could still impose nonjudicial punishment in those cases, she only has the authority when she asks the lawyer's permission and the lawyer commits to try that case, should the soldier turn it down. Truthfully, when you walk into a unit, the first thing you see is a line of pictures, and the soldiers know that that represents the chain of command and the chain of authority. Orders run down that chain, and enforcement of discipline comes from that chain. No commander should have to go next door to ask a staff officer if they may discipline their soldier. I look forward to discussing this issue with you. [The prepared statement of General Darpino can be found in the Appendix on page 99.] Ms. Speier. Thank you. Let me start off by asking the three very courageous women here a very simple question. Was the response of the military in your reporting your sexual assaults, worse than the rapes itself? Just raise your hand. So all three of you basically saying that while as horrendous as the sexual assault was, the process that the military used to provide justice was worse? [Nonverbal response.] Ms. Speier. Lieutenant Commander Elliott, you had indicated to me that you had been recently providing training at various locations. Could you tell us a little bit about that and what has happened since? Commander Elliott. Yes, ma'am. For the past couple of years, I have been invited to speak by different groups, down in Norfolk, at U.S. Strategic Command, just to share my experiences, and what I went through as a military sexual assault survivor. And I have always worked through the unit COs [commanding officers] and their respective SARCs [Sexual Assault Response Coordinators] to give this training, and I have received lots of positive feedback, from the most junior enlisted up to vice admirals. Last week, I received an email telling me that I am no longer allowed to do this for any type of SAPR event or training and that my talking points were inconsistent with the current Navy SAPR program. And when I called to speak to this person who sent me this email, I was told basically that I was too raw, it was too real, and that--there was a lot of negative, because there is a lot of negative in my story, but that I could work on this, and if I wanted to talk about the positives, that would be okay. And I think that is sugar-coating the issue. I mean, the reason, you know, we don't address it seriously with training right now, and this is part of the problem, is we don't want to address what it really is. Ms. Speier. Ms. Bapp, do you think that your case would have been handled differently if it was given to a different commander who didn't have a conflict of interest? Ms. Bapp. Entirely, wholly, yes, I do. And you know, it doesn't go down to there are good commanders and there are bad commanders. It goes down to the fact that commanders are people. We are fallible. We are humans. And it is not that my commander was a bad commander. I am sure she wouldn't want that on her plate either, but it is just there is an inherent conflict of interest. And it is one thing for me to trust someone who eventually was my assailant, but for me to trust the command and the system that I signed to risk my life for, in order to serve my country; when that fails me, and my trust was misplaced, that has a huge impact on just the outcome of everything and our psychological well-being. And I--even if my assailant wasn't prosecuted, I just think believing and trusting in the system would have just been a wholly more adequate response, yes. Ms. Speier. Ms. Hanson, you indicated that you received over 400 text messages that were sexual in nature. Were there also videos or photographs that were sent to you? Ms. Hanson. Yes, ma'am. He sent explicit voicemails, and also on a government computer, sent inappropriate emails. He would also set up meetings, and so when I would inquire what the purpose of the meeting was, he would be like, oh, just to get you alone. And then I would make sure that I had another overlapping meeting so that way I couldn't attend his meetings. And any time I did have to attend a meeting with him, I would make sure other people were in the room, and I was never alone with him. But he self-admitted to every bit of it. He self-admitted to physically attacking me, to sending voicemails, to sending-- to sending text messages, every bit of it. Ms. Speier. Did you ask that the case be sent to court- martial? Ms. Hanson. Yes, ma'am, I did. Ms. Speier. And what happened? Ms. Hanson. It was not sent to court-martial. He received an Article 15 and was allowed to retire from the Air Force. Ms. Speier. And he gets full benefits, I trust? Ms. Hanson. Yes, ma'am. Ms. Speier. Colonel Christensen, you had, in your testimony, indicated that when all is said and done, less than 1 percent of the convening authorities actually used their prosecutorial authority for purposes of a court-martial. Is that correct? Colonel Christensen. One percent of commanders, yes. So---- Ms. Speier. Of commanders? Colonel Christensen. Right. And so I disagree with the lieutenant general. I do not agree that the prosec--or, excuse me, a commander can punish without the permission of a JAG. It absolutely is not true. Every action that a commander takes to punish a JAG--or punish a member has to be reviewed by--for legal sufficiency by the JAG. A commander convening authority cannot send a case to trial without--to a general court-martial without their staff judge advocate giving them legal advice that meets the requirements of Article 34. So they have to get the advice, and I think it is dismissive to call them staff officers--to get the advice of JAGs when to do this, and they have to have permission of JAGs to do certain things. What they do not have to have permission of is to not do anything. So the commander wants to do nothing, there is nothing a JAG can do to force him to do it. So that is where the disconnect is. Commanders, because of the inherent abuse of authority that has existed over the last 230 years, many restraints have been placed on the commanders' ability to punish, but there is not the same kind of restraints on their ability to ignore, as in Ms. Hanson's case, where the evidence was overwhelming, the accused had confessed, and the victim is asking, demanding, sent a very personal email to the convening authority, please, begging him to send it to court, and instead, because he liked that colonel and thought he was a good person, allowed him to retire. That is what the issue is. And I think it is also offensive to consider this the equivalent of a parent and child relationship. A parent is not qualified, just like a commander isn't, to criminally prosecute their children, and no parent ever would criminally prosecute their children. That is the problem. The inherent bias of command is the problem. Ms. Speier. The recent DOD IG [Inspector General] report audited 82 sexual assault cases, and found that in 77 of them, victims were either not asked their preference on where their case would be tried, or that the preference wasn't recorded. Are you concerned by this failure to comply with the Federal law, and what does it mean to you that there is no system of recording victims' preference? Colonel Christensen. Yeah, I am very concerned. Protect Our Defenders FOIA'd [Freedom of Information Act] this information in July of 2017. Every branch responded and said they didn't track the numbers, they had no idea how many people had been informed, or whether they were even informing them. Our experience at Protect Our Defenders is, survivors were not told, or if they were told, they were talked out of going to the civilians. Congress made this very important change to law to give survivors greater choices. There are times when a victim would be much better off having their case adjudicated by the civilian authorities than the military. There are times when it would be better off having the military do it. That is a choice that a victim has been given by you. It is not up to the government, not up to the military, to ignore that choice. I am very concerned. We put them on notice a year--almost 2 years ago, that this was an issue. And it wasn't until this DOD IG report came out last week that they suddenly seemed to care. And this isn't the only time that Congress has imposed new laws and imposed new requirements on the DOD, and they have ignored them. For example, the DOD was told specifically by Congress, you will no longer send penetrative sex cases to specials or summary courts. They will only go to general courts. But the DAC-IPAD report that came out last week showed that there are a number of occasions where penetrative sex assault cases are going to special courts, and summary courts, what aren't even a real court, and that is done in direction violation of law that was passed by this Congress. Ms. Speier. Colonel Haring, do you have any comments? Colonel Haring. No, not at this time. Ms. Speier. All right. I guess my last question would be for each of you, what changes should we make in the UCMJ, or what provisions should we put in the NDAA to rectify some of these circumstances, short of taking these cases out of the chain of command? Colonel Christensen. Well, I can go first. Another issue that Congress has addressed is to increase the quality of the prosecutors; you have mandated that the services create litigation tracks for prosecutors. I, against--going, swimming upstream, was able to prosecute and defend cases in my entire career. I was an extreme rarity. The average Air Force JAG quits after its 2- or 3-year point, and we have a few that might go on to a second or third assignment. There are very, very, very few really experienced prosecutors. So that is one thing. Push these gentlemen behind me for answers why they have not created senior litigators. The Air Force has not had a colonel going to a court-martial since I left. Why is that the case? The second thing--and I think, Mr. Kelly, you would agree with me--that the investigative stage is the most critical part of the criminal-justice process. No matter how good a lawyer is, if there is a bad investigation, it is hard to overcome. Our investigators, like our lawyers, are often experienced, they are very eager, they try hard, but these are complex cases, and you need good investigators. I would say to the Congress, you need to ask the tough questions of the Chiefs of Staff, why have you not prioritized real experience with your investigators, and a 3-year-and-out tour is not enough. It needs to be something that is a career track for investigators as well. Ms. Speier. Are you suggesting that they should be civilian, then? Colonel Christensen. Well, there are civilian investigators in every one of the investigative services. I think what you need to do is to give those who are in the military great opportunity to continue in that track. I know it goes against their career model. But it is 2019. Using a career model from 1940 is probably not the best thing to do. Let investigators be investigators for their entire career. Ms. Speier. Thank you. Colonel Haring. Colonel Haring. Thank you. This is a hard question, because I don't think that a solution here is in the justice system at all. Once it gets to the justice system, we have already had an assault. I think the problems lie within our culture, and we have not, one, acknowledged that we have got a cultural problem; or two, how do we address a cultural problem that allows for harassment and assault to exist in the first place? One of the things that our organization has long worked toward is systemic military culture change, and one of the places that we have called attention to is that when soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines first join the military services, they are indoctrinated early, when they are very young, at basic training. And we continue to see the highest rates of harassment assault exist in the one service that continues to segregate men and women during basic training, and that is the Marine Corps. I think that this needs to begin at the entry level and go all the way through in our training and education systems. I don't think that incremental changes to the justice system are the answer to, or a solution to this problem. Ms. Speier. Lieutenant Commander. Commander Elliott. Yes, ma'am. Two things I really recommend is, first one being training. You know, we talk about training, we all have training every year. And it is depending on the trainer who gives it, but we still don't take things seriously that we need to be. For example, whenever we do the training in the Navy, we have, you know, women are raped and men are groped. We never talk about men being raped by women or men. And I feel like we are not addressing, again, the nitty, the uncomfortable issues. We just gloss over them. Also, a discussion I had after one of the presentations I did with the--with the vice admiral is, I feel part of the problem, when we are doing this training, is, we do a lot of consequences-based training, like, don't do this because if you do this, your career is over, or you could get in trouble, or you could do this; whereas it is supposed to be, it should be, we don't do this because we are good people, and we are good sailors, and we take care of each other. And I think we need to focus on that more, saying, Hey, this is why we don't do it, because this is wrong. Additionally, I feel like, I know there has been some changes, you know, adding retaliation to the UCMJ and that sort of thing. I believe retaliation and reports of retaliation need to be looked at completely outside the chain of command. Because when you have people inside the chain of command looking at the retaliation within their command, I mean, that sort of defeats the purpose because they don't want a bad climate, they don't want a--you know, they might not necessarily see that. And I feel like--and I am not saying it needs to be a huge organization, but it needs to be someone who is not in there at all. You know, they don't know these people, and they are coming to truly look if there is some type of retaliation going on. Ms. Speier. Ms. Hanson. Ms. Hanson. I also agree with your comments. I believe that retaliation is prevalent, and it is relevant in all of our cases. But when I go to the chain of command to report it, I am reporting it to the same people that retaliated against me. That is really basically ineffective. Our training, we are required to sit through training every year, and it is basically ``here we go again.'' We have to go back through these slides, and it is just--they call it death by PowerPoint, and click through them where they go through the slides, and jokes are made about it. I believe that the training needs to be revamped. I am not saying that more training needs to have--happen, but it needs to be realistic and up to date. It is not just throw a couple of things up on the slides and we just talk to those and then we are done, and then we walk out the door and forget everything that everybody said. Ms. Speier. Thank you. Ms. Bapp. Ms. Bapp. Yes, ma'am. My biggest piece of advice would be zero tolerance. And I know that word has been thrown around. I am not talking about zero tolerance with sexual assault. That is clearly--I think everybody in this room can agree zero tolerance for sexual assault, but how can we actually breed in the culture and get everybody on the same page? It starts with zero tolerance of the smallest level. And as I mentioned how crude and lewd comments were made and just how they are so easily thrown around of a sexual nature, demeaning, misogynistic, that is what needs to stop. And I am not saying we need to negatively--we need to punish the soldiers, necessarily, who do that. We need our commanders--we need to positively reinforce the commanders to step up and stand up and say, hey, cut that out. That is not right. Because in a similar situation, you know, with gay comments, for me, personally, I don't hear that as much. There is a commercial on it, and kids were shopping, and they saw a sweater they didn't like, and he was, like, oh, that is so gay. But the commercial was stepping up and saying at the smallest instance, hey, by gay, do you mean lame? Like, no. Let's change that word. Let's change that culture. So we need to--that is how we can empower our commanders. I don't know what the system would be in place, but to truly believe in that, because I do believe that most people who join the military are good people at heart, and they mean well, and they want to have effective combat missions. And in order to do that, we need to have this positive culture, so we need to stamp out all of the comments. That doesn't make you a better soldier. That doesn't make you more of a man or a woman if you, you know, made those crude comments. We are professionals, and that needs to be constantly reminded. So maybe integrating that within our training and think of ways to incentivize our commanders to lead in that capacity, rather than just laying on the hammer. Ms. Speier. Lieutenant General. General Darpino. Thank you. And the culture discussions that we were talking about and how commanders are responsible in solving that culture are well taken, and thank you, ladies, for sharing that and also with the training that you have done when it comes to educating the force. You know, I think part of it is that the DAC-IPAD that just came out last week that had looked at multiple, multiple cases of sexual assault, and these are done by Federal judges and civilian prosecutors. And they reviewed them down to the nitty gritty, and they found that commanders are making both appropriate decisions when it came to preferral, sending them to trial, and in not sending them to trial. And with that in mind, you know, what--really to get after this, I think we often have to look at the other recommendations that the DAC-IPAD had which have to do with expedited transfers and how we can ensure that we are having expedited transfers. We are moving the accused in a case where you had a great commander, and you didn't want to leave, or a great job, and you didn't want to leave. So we have to look at ways to assist victims still. We are not done there. And then we also have to help ourselves find offenders. And when we have restricted cases, we often don't know who that offender is because it is in a database that we can't touch, that commanders can't see. And so if we are able to link the different offenders together and then go back to our victims and say, you know, it has happened to someone else, would you like us to prosecute that? And so I think there are places that we can improve our system. Something has to be done, other than the DAC-IPAD had some great recommendations, even though they did, in fact, support the commander in the system. Ms. Speier. Thank you. Mr. Kelly. Mr. Kelly. I thank each of you victims again for sharing your story. I don't know how difficult that is, but I appreciate how difficult that is. Maybe that is a better way to say that. Lieutenant Commander Elliott, offline, if you would provide me with information, the name of the person who told you it is too raw, I would love that to have follow up with, if you will provide that offline. Commander Elliott. Yes, sir, I will. Mr. Kelly. That is inappropriate, and I am sorry that that happened. Provide it, and we will see if I can get a different response. The realistic training, Ms. Hanson, trust me, I have gone through those briefings, and we have got to work on that. I mean, we have got to get it so that it is right, so that people aren't making jokes and doing that. So thank you all. That is a very, very valid point. Mr.--Colonel Christensen, thank you. I think a professional CID and law enforcement at the level who knows what they are doing at that early stage is--that is critical to every case that I have ever prosecuted anywhere. So thank you. Very valid comment. And the only comment I have is going back to you, Lieutenant Colonel--Lieutenant Commander. I am sorry. I am an Army guy--Lieutenant Commander Elliott, is retaliation. We just need to make sure folks understand there is an IG out there that gets you outside the chain of command. And I think that we already have an organization in place. We just have to make sure that folks know how to use it. General Darpino, I think there is a perception that commanders make UCMJ decisions in a vacuum. What roles do lawyers play in advising the commander on whether a case should go forward or not, and what happens if a lawyer and a commander disagree? General Darpino. Well, I think that an earlier speaker actually mentioned this, and I think it was Colonel Christensen. And Colonel Christensen stated that lawyers are involved in these processes at every level, and they are advising commanders at every level. Just like a lawyer presents to a grand jury, which is a group of civilians, and they present all the evidence of the case and they lay it out for them, that is what lawyers do for our commanders, and they lay out the case and give them advice on what is the appropriate disposition. The commander, however, who is the one who is responsible for discipline, can make that decision. Now, in a sexual assault case, should a commander decide against the advice of their staff judge advocate not to send that into trial? That goes to the next level commander to review, to an even higher level commander to review. Should in a sexual assault case a staff judge advocate say yes, this, in fact, should go to trial, and--or I am sorry, should not go to trial, and the commander agrees this should not go to trial, that case goes up also for further review. In fact, if they don't follow your advice of your attorney, it goes all the way up to the Secretary of the military department concerned. And if we are concerned that prosecutors are somehow being sidelined in these cases, if a prosecutor out there believes a case is being brushed under the rug and should, in fact, be tried, they can refer that to the chief prosecutor of their military service, and that can be acted on by the Secretary. And so these cases are now controlled and pulled up to the highest level, reviewed by the best lawyers, and commanders cannot brush them under the rug. Mr. Kelly. Some have said that removing the commander from sexual assault prosecutions would solve the problem of unlawful command influence. Could you explain what unlawful command influence is and whether it would be eliminated if we removed commanders from sexual assault cases, Lieutenant General Darpino? General Darpino. Okay. So unlawful command influence has the word ``command'' in it. And so a lot of people think that unlawful command influence can only be accomplished by a commander, and case law is very, very clear that that is not the case. And while Colonel Christensen mentioned that there are a number of recent cases where the court found unlawful command influence, 50 percent of those cases had to do with a lawyer being the one who unlawfully influenced that court. A commander was not involved. The third case actually had to do with a deliberation where it was a panel member who brought politics into a deliberation room. So it is really only one of those recent cases that had to do with a commander that had committed unlawful command influence. So forget the word ``command'' in our system. It means when somebody unlawfully influences a case that has a position of authority, and lawyers can do it too. Mr. Kelly. Thank you. And what is the lowest level of command that can make a decision regarding whether a sexual assault offense should go to trial and the rank or rank equivalent of that, Lieutenant General Darpino? General Darpino. So that is withheld by Congress and rightfully so. The services have already withheld it to this level because they thought it was the right answer, and that is at the O-6 level, which would be a brigade commander, someone who--in the other services, it would be a commander. Is that right? Mr. Kelly. A captain. General Darpino. A captain. I am sorry. Thank you. I looked at her. A captain. And so it is already withheld to the very, very highest level, and they have lawyers who advise them at that level. They are not doing it blind. Mr. Kelly. And just--I am kind of a glass half full kind of guy. And so lots went wrong in each one of yours--each one of you survivors. It went wrong. So--but let's learn from the things that went right too. So for you--you survivors. I don't like victims. You all aren't victims, you are survivors, and you are much better than that. But what part of the process worked good for you? What part--if none, that is fine, but what part worked well for you? Commander Elliott. I will say, you know, when I did first go unrestricted in my first command, I did have a very supportive commanding officer, and he went way above and beyond anything that he should have ever been required to do, and that made--that helped me a lot. And then we won't talk about the bad part that happened afterwards, but also, I will say we have the Victims' Legal Counsel program that was started several years ago, and I know Ms. Bapp had a different experience with that, but I had a very positive experience, and she was able to--she was my lawyer. She represented my interests as opposed to the prosecutor who represents the government's interest, and she was able--she walked me through every step. Everything we did, she was always there with me, and that was a very good part of the program which--a very positive change that I think--you know, I know they are very overworked, most VLCs [victims' legal counsel]. And if that is something we could expand upon, I think that would help a lot of people. Mr. Kelly. Ms. Hanson. Ms. Hanson. I was also assigned a special victims' counsel by the Air Force. She assisted me. She was there with me every step of the way. One part that they could kind of tweak a little bit on that one is that she was assigned to me as a captain, and she was going up against a full-bird colonel, a three-star general, an SES [Senior Executive Service]. She was great. She was absolutely phenomenal and amazing, but she also ran into rank issues and admitted it along the way as well. Mr. Kelly. Ms. Bapp. Ms. Bapp. I had a different experience with getting to my SVC [special victims' counsel] that I had outdated paperwork, and the SVC collateral misconduct was never mentioned on mine. However, once I found my way through the advice of a family member, I had a phenomenal experience with him. He was supportive. So basically, everything outside of my chain of command, the resources that were made available to me. My therapist, she was a saving grace, just an absolutely phenomenal woman. My SVC, up until the point where there appeared to be a conflict of interest because it is a very small installation, and he represented my commander in a completely unrelated instance, so he had to remove himself from being my SVC, so I lost an integral support structure. But then I got another one, and he was also fabulous, so those two were really positive. But I also had a chain of command. No one believed me. So, you know, but they believed me and they wanted to help, and that was the most important experience that I had in a positive manner. Mr. Kelly. Thank you each for your amazing service to this Nation and for your warrior spirit. And with that, Madam Chairwoman, I yield back. Ms. Speier. Lieutenant General Darpino, I can't get around the decision made in Ms. Hanson's case. There was cold evidence. She wanted a court-martial. It never went to court- martial, and he got to retire with full benefits. How do you explain that, and how is that sound command control influence? General Darpino. Well, I don't know enough about Ms. Hanson's case except for what she said here today, and I don't know who made the decisions in those cases, so I really can't say. But I can go back to what I saw and what the DAC-IPAD found where they reviewed actual cases, not theoretical cases but actual cases, and they found that the decision of the commander to prefer or not prefer those cases was sound. Ms. Speier. Well, I---- General Darpino. And so I think that there are a number of cases where we don't get it right and that people don't get it right because it is a human system, and lawyers make mistakes too. And so it isn't a cure-all to just replace one person with another. You are still going to have human error. Ms. Speier. So I have a lot of high regard for the DAC- IPAD, but I think what you are referring to is a situation where the standard that they used was ``reasonable,'' and they didn't define reasonable. So in reviewing the cases, they had two people that would review each case, and the likelihood was that they would make the finding that it was reasonable, but it wasn't based on some standard. It was a very subjective review. All right. Mrs. Davis, you are next. Mrs. Davis. Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all of you for being here. And it is really the testimony and the women, and some men, like you that came forward a number of years ago that some of the changes were created. It is a result of that, so I think we have to continue, you know, to go beyond that. And the special victims' counsel particularly was one that came out of those discussions. And the thing that I think I found so disgusting was that the few individuals who have been assigned to help out victims were treated so poorly, and part of what I think we discovered was that we need to have people who are given the benefit of good, solid training in order to play a significant role. And what I would like to know, because a lot of you have mentioned, whether there has been any erosion of that, to your knowledge. And maybe you don't know. Colonel Christensen, maybe you have a sense of this, whether they are playing that vital role or, in fact, in some cases, they are not seen as, I don't know the word, professional, whatever that might be in order to play it. Do you think that--and you have all--most of you have testified that actually you think that was helpful. And we want to be sure that it continues to be helpful and that the person has the tools to be able to advocate so strongly. Colonel Christensen. Congresswoman Davis, again, thank you so much because you and Congresswoman Speier, Chairwoman Speier, have been two of the most leading--I think the earliest voices on this, and your leadership has meant so much to the survivor community. So thank you. But, yes. The SVC and the Victims' Legal Counsel program I think have been one of the most significant, if not the most significant change that has been made to the military justice process. I want to make it perfectly clear. The military was not happy about it. I was there when it happened. Some of the people that are going to testify to you today about how great it was specifically called it stupid and unneeded, but now they have changed their tunes. It is an amazing program. The biggest, I think, weakness comes from a lack of experience, because too many of the SVCs, the first survivor they ever talked to in their life is their first client. That is not good. Again, there are people that think having inexperienced lawyers is great. I don't think so. I think you get better with experience, just like you get better practicing medicine with experience. And then I also think, as was pointed out, the huge rank disparity that Ms. Hanson pointed out. We have--and this is one of the problems also with the prosecutors. There are captains or majors going up against a lieutenant general. It is a huge rank disparity, and it tamps down dissent. Mrs. Davis. Yeah. Thank you very much. I am going to move on quickly because of time constraints. But certainly, I mean, that is--in terms of rank, I think that is important. But talk to me a little bit more about--you know, the retaliation is such an important concern here, and we have some, I think, training to try and help people, if they see a problem, you know, to intervene. You know, it is almost like, you know, don't let your friend drive drunk. I mean, don't watch somebody doing something stupid and just let them continue to do it. I mean, intervene. But this retaliation piece. I mean, where would it change if we were making a difference in terms of who--without going up the chain of command, and you are going to judges. Because I think one of the things that I kept hearing during the last number of years and certainly as we started these discussions, is that in many cases, it is the commander that wants to bring the case to trial, because the judges--well, if we had those judges, there are very few, as you mentioned, but the JAGs were looking at it more like they would if they were, you know, a prosecutor in the community. They wanted cases that they could actually deliver on. So where do you see that coming down that, actually--and in some cases, the commanders are actually more aggressive about wanting to make sure that this case goes to a court-martial. Lieutenant Commander. Commander Elliott. Well, in my personal opinion, I mean, that is another reason that they should go to trained military judges, because the system's broken on both sides, right. As survivors, we feel--we have, we have been mistreated a lot, but when you look on the other side of it, they are saying the same thing. They are like, you know, commanding officers are being too aggressive, you know. We need to go to someone who is actually trained. Mrs. Davis. How would that affect the retaliation? Commander Elliott. I feel like with retaliation--and retaliation is at every level. It can be from your peers. It can be from anybody. But with retaliation, when you remove it outside the chain of command, it is no longer, oh, well, we don't like this person because, you know, she put this boss in this bad situation where she--he had to choose between this sailor and that sailor or whatever. It is no longer--it is completely removed. Mrs. Davis. Yeah. I guess part of the concern, and I certainly yield, is that there are many of these cases that go on, probably most of the time. I mean, I think that what we have to be focused on is command climate and being very clear that people are accountable for what goes on in their unit. And any--you know, that kind of discussion, that kind of activity is just not acceptable and will be punished. Because I am not sure we have the judges to be able to deal with all of those individual accounts that occur, and we have to kind of deal with them on the ground. The extent to which we can do that, give us the tools. We are happy to respond to those questions. That is really important to all of us. Thank you. Ms. Speier. Mrs. Luria. Mrs. Luria. Well, thank you all for being here today. And especially, thank you to the three of you for sharing these stories, because I know that they are very difficult situations and this is very difficult to do in a very public context. And you know, having been a commanding officer myself, and I know that several other people who may not be present right at this moment on the committee as well have been in command in the military, you know, I value the tools that the UCMJ gave to me as a commanding officer and as an O-5, so any case relative to sexual assault, I would have had to refer to the O-6, the next in my chain of command. But, you know, as the lieutenant general stated, that was a recommendation that I made reviewing the full facts of the case to the next level in the chain of command. And, you know, I really appreciate the remarks that Lieutenant General Darpino made, and I know that she didn't read her statement in full, but, you know, as she says in her written statement, and, you know, as I was thinking about this leading up to the hearing, we trust our commanders to take our sons and daughters into war. We trust them to make decisions when people are risking their lives. But yet we are sitting here questioning whether we trust them to make decisions such as this about the well-being of the people who they command and to apply the UCMJ fairly. So I believe that there is a disconnect there, and as the lieutenant general mentioned in her comments, that those duties of responsibility and accountability are inextricably tied to command. So, Colonel Christensen, can you just elaborate on the statement that you said, that I trust military lawyers to make that decision, meaning the decision about these cases, more than I trust commanders? Colonel Christensen. Yeah. Sure. We trust commanders to make decisions, life and death, when it comes to combat because that is their profession. That is what they are trained in. You are a fighter pilot. You have trained your entire career as a fighter pilot to lead that fighter pilot squadron, and that is what you have done. You have gone to Red Flag. You have done all these other things. You have not---- Mrs. Luria. Throughout that leadership and that time that you took to get to that position of command, and especially when we are talking about the level of a general court-martial convening authority, the 30-plus years that that commander has had to get to that position, do you not acknowledge that they have had to go through numerous decisions where they had to take into account the good order and discipline of their command and the UCMJ and the use of that? My biggest concern, and Lieutenant General Darpino, if you can comment on this in the last couple of minutes, is that there is many tools in the commander's toolkit outside of convening a court-martial. And, you know, reviewing the background material that we were given by the staff before this case, which included the subcommittee of the Judicial Proceedings Panel, a report on Barriers to the Fair Administration of Sexual Military Justice in Sexual Assault Cases, sorry, long title, the 2017 study that was done by the DOD is basically that when these--I am sorry. I lost my train of thought. But that there is numerous things within these cases that we have changed in our policies and procedures, such as the nature of an Article 32 hearing, such as, you know, when it is not referred to a court-martial, the commander--because there is not enough evidence, because there is not enough evidence like others referred to for it actually to reach a conviction, that there are other tools that a commander has. And other than on a ship, you know, a sailor or a soldier or an airman can refuse NJP [non-judicial punishment] or Article 15, and therefore, you find yourself in a position where people sort of sea lawyer the situation as an accused to find themselves where it is on the track to a court-martial. But a commander has a lot of other tools that they can use, especially in the case where there is not enough evidence, but the case is still on track for a court-martial and someone can plea bargain. And therefore, the commander can use tools such as, you know, non-judicial punishment, administrative action, separation from service, reduction in rank, all of these things that are way more punishment than can ever happen in the civilian system because in the civilian system or outside of the chain of the command, those tools don't exist. So in time remaining, could you please comment on that? General Darpino. And thank you for those comments, because it is--these are extraordinarily difficult cases to try, and I am not speaking about the three victims' cases here today. But when you look at what these cases and the majority are, they are--the victims are junior enlisted women. The offenders are either junior enlisted soldiers or junior NCOs. They occur in barracks on Fridays and Saturday nights, alcohol is involved, and there is no one else present. And those are extraordinarily difficult cases to try, and that is why the prosecution rates are lower in the civilian sector. And because, as we heard from a DA [district attorney] previously, a grand jury is typically not going to. A commander, however, because it affects good order and discipline, with the advice of counsel, the Army is currently trying 50 percent of their cases. Fifty percent of their trials are sexual assault cases. Conviction rates aren't relevant to this discussion because it is lawyers who try cases, not commanders, so conviction rates aren't relevant, but 50 percent go to trial. And those that they are not able to, we track every single case, and we send a spreadsheet to the Hill every year of every single case, and we tell you exactly what we did with them. And we use those other tools, non-judicial punishment, kicking someone out of the military. It isn't a perfect system. It isn't a perfect system, but you don't throw away an entire system, the baby out with the bath water, when you already have made so many changes and rewrote the whole thing that just went in effect 3 months ago. Ms. Speier. Thank you. Mrs. Trahan. Mrs. Trahan. Thank you. Thank you, Chairwoman, for holding this hearing. And thank you for coming in and sharing your stories. It is our obligation now to make it better, so I appreciate you coming in. So how do we actually monitor variation in how commanders deal with these offenses? And I will just elaborate. I believe when Lieutenant Commander Elliott says that when she started her case, her--I believe it was your first commander, you had a lot of confidence that you were going to be taken care of, but then that changed, right? And provided we are giving tools, I am sure we are, I am sure there is different acceptance rates of those tools, there is ways to fix that variability. So I am just wondering, what are we doing today to take the variation out of the problem? General Darpino. And so, you know, that is why we have all these surveys that we have, that we conduct in the military, and that is why, you know, we are kind of often like the canary in the coal mine, you know. You see a lot of the issues and problems raised and seen with the mirror that the military is of society because we have all these surveys. One of the surveys that goes directly to that issue is that we have command climate surveys within all the services, and we ask a series of questions. And we ask them, you know, do they trust their command? Do they promote a climate of sexual-- against sexual assault? Do they walk the talk, you know, and act appropriately? And we poll soldiers on that and service members, and, you know, I can give you a number that sounds great out of four for all ages, but if we just focus on the victims and the offenders, which is our junior enlisted and our NCOs both, that number out of 4 is 3.4 or 3.3. And so we use these surveys, and then guess what? The next level commander who actually does the rating of that individual officer gets to see that survey, and if they see problems, that is how they know. Mrs. Trahan. So it is an anonymous survey. General Darpino. Anonymous surveys. Mrs. Trahan. And so do we take time to figure out, like, to really go into a deep dive on the 3.3, right? I mean---- General Darpino. Yes. A series of questions, Congresswoman. Mrs. Trahan. Okay. You know, the systemic military culture change, does anyone on this panel know, is this an internally run culture change that we are--or is this--are we bringing outside experts in to help with the culture change? Can someone speak to that? Colonel Haring. So in recent years, the military, DOD, has hired a number of external experts and brought them inside the military. At the last panel at the SASC [Senate Armed Services Committee], Dr. Van Winkle spoke. I don't know what degree of latitude they are able to exercise once they have been brought in. I don't know of any external monitoring organization. Now, RAND does do some of the research, but they are quasi- independent. So what I would love to see is for DOD to hire a truly expert, say a red team type of external organization to evaluate and analyze the work that they are doing. Mrs. Trahan. It would be great if we could have visibility into the culture change process just only because it is--I have never seen a stronger culture, and, you know, there is movies about how strong the culture is. I mean, the levers are so--are so clear to me in terms of changing the culture that I don't feel as though it is a 3-year process. It is likely more closer to an instant. My last question is on the Special Victims Counsel program. My predecessor played a key role, along with the chairwoman and Congresswoman Davis, in its creation. Like any program, I am sure it requires improvement, and I am sure we have learned a lot as it has been, you know--since its inception. Besides the rank disparity, or maybe you have suggestions on how we fix the rank disparity, but are there suggestions in terms of us making that process better? Colonel Christensen. Well, I think one thing is it has to be made clear to the special victims' counsels and the VLCs that their duty is entirely to their client. They are not there to make services look better or to avoid embarrassment. That is something we have heard from a number of VLCs and SVCs that that is what they are getting from the top down is that they are just to get the victim through the process. So, for example, it may be very beneficial for a victim to come to Congress or to go to the media, but I think most VLCs and SVCs feel like they cannot do that. Mrs. Trahan. Okay. Thank you. I am out of time. Ms. Speier. All right. Colonel Christensen, Colonel Haring, Lieutenant General Darpino, thank you for your participation. And to Lieutenant Commander Elliott and Ms. Hanson, Ms. Bapp, I hope everyone who is here, particularly the TJAGs [The Judge Advocates General] that are going to come afterwards, are going to have burnished in their minds your comments that the process that you endured after your rapes was worse than the rapes itself. So I want to thank you for the courage that you have shown. I apologize on behalf of the United States Government and our military that you have endured what you have endured, and I want to make sure that you have every level of support that you need as you move forward. And I hope you will always feel comfortable coming to me, in particular, if you have any problems in that regard. Before closing this down, Mr. Cisneros has returned, so he is going to have his 5 minutes of questioning. Mr. Cisneros. Thank you, Madam Chair. Sorry I had to stop and go to another--make an appearance at another committee hearing and ask my questions there. But I want to thank you all for being here today, and I want to thank the three of you especially for sharing your story here. I know it is very brave of you to do that. Lieutenant General Darpino, I was troubled by your analogy, the parents and the commanding officer of good order and discipline. I totally agree it is the job of the commanding officer to maintain good order and discipline, and he is given things like NJP in order to help him do that, just like a parent is able to discipline their child when they come home late and they miss curfew. And the commanding officer, through NJP, can do those certain things too if, you know, somebody misses a curfew. I was in the Navy, so on a ship or for whatever reason, they are allowed to do that. But, you know, if that child goes and commits a serious crime, the parent is not to say--allowed to say, well, you know what, I am just going to discipline him, and I will take care of it. So why would we do it any way different with a commanding officer? If there is a serious crime, why do we still allow the commanding officer to go and to make that determination as to how he is going to discipline and make the decision? General Darpino. Yes. Thank you. And as I said, it wasn't a perfect analogy, and it was really one to demonstrate how command authority is linked to the ability to hold someone accountable. And I do understand exactly what your point is, and I did not intend for it to be used as the perfect example. But I think an example that might help to illustrate it that has to do with what we do, a core element of what we do as warfighters, is that in the case of a law of war violation in combat, it is the commander that you would expect to be able to send that message to everyone else that to go out into the village and murder citizens is not acceptable. You would expect that a commander would be the one who would stand before the troops and send that message by sending that case to a court- martial. And so that analogy--that example is an example where the two are linked based upon exactly what it is that we do as an Army in our service to our Nation. Mr. Cisneros. You know, I hear your analogy, right, but a lot of these aren't situations that are--they are not happening in a wartime situation. And I can recall a situation where there was an officer who committed, we will call it a crime, was removed from the ship next day, and the CO had nothing to do with it. Lieutenant Commander Elliott, you were a commanding officer, so I have this question for you. In your view, are commanding officers adequately trained to handle sexual assault allegations in their units, in their commands? Commander Elliott. Absolutely not. We are trained as commanding officers to provide the response and provide the training of--you know, to prevent sexual assault, and we are trained how to take care of our victims if they are assaulted, but we are not judges. I mean, I had a 3-day legal course before I became a commanding officer, and that was the extent of my legal training. So I feel like we are given good tools to address the program. We could for sure improve, and like anything else, it depends on who is providing us the training and what our bosses find important. But I do not feel that we are trained as commanding officers to be able to make these decisions about, you know, felons by any means. Mr. Cisneros. Okay. And I just have one last question for all of you. And, Colonel Haring, you kind of mentioned this in your opening remarks, but I am just going to read it back. Where is it? Sex crimes against women have never been treated with the same level of outrage or professionalism as other serious crimes. Do you all agree with that? Colonel Christensen. Colonel Christensen. I think it generally true, yes, but there are some that are--some units are better, some legal offices are better, others aren't. So I think there is a general belief--a view of disbelief. Mr. Cisneros. Colonel, you made the statement, so I am going to assume you agree with it. Colonel Haring. Not only do I agree, but I think that history is replete with examples, not just within the military, but across our institutions where sex crimes against women are just not treated--perpetrators are not held to levels of--the same levels of accountability as other types of crimes. Mr. Cisneros. Lieutenant Commander Elliott. Commander Elliott. Yes, sir, I would agree with that. And as an example, it just happened less than 2 years ago. I witnessed a young lady I mentored, someone very hard-grabbed her rear end, which would be abusive sexual contact, and the person that did that got a slap on the wrist. He was an E-6 and who later that--2 months later found out he made chief, and they allowed him to go ahead and become a chief petty officer; where there were two E-5s that broke curfew, weren't doing anything wrong, they were just out past curfew, and they are now E-4s. So the joke in command is like it is okay to sexually assault somebody and still have a career, but it is not okay to break curfew. So, yes, I do not feel we treat these crimes seriously. Mr. Cisneros. I am out of my time, but if we could just real quick, a yes or no, Ms. Hanson and Ms. Bapp. Ms. Hanson. I agree as well. In my case, mine was my boss and my full-bird colonel. And then when a congressional was made about my case, Secretary Heather Wilson made the statement in an official written statement that his character in service and his record was taken into consideration in the disposition of his case. I believe that we have lost the bubble and control of where we need to be at. Mr. Cisneros. Ms. Bapp. Ms. Bapp. Real quick, I just think it is less about the prosecution and the understanding of the actual criminal act, but the psychological complexities around sexual abuse and the cycles of abuse of power. I think that is what is misunderstood and is at the core root. So I would say that is the bigger issue than sex crimes. Mr. Cisneros. Lieutenant General Darpino. General Darpino. I definitely think there is more work to be done, and violence against women is a problem in society, and, you know, high school, Hollywood, and the halls of Congress, and that we need to continue to focus on this issue and not take our eye off the ball. Mr. Cisneros. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Ms. Speier. Lieutenant Commander, you indicated that you had 3 days of legal training. How much of that was set aside for sexual assault? Commander Elliott. I believe it was about a 2-hour block. Ms. Speier. Two hours out of 72 or---- Commander Elliott. Two hours out of about 28, 29, so about maybe 10 percent--or less than 10 percent. Ms. Speier. Less than 10 percent. Commander Elliott. Yes, ma'am. Mr. Kelly. May I ask a question? At what level did you command, what level? Commander Elliott. I was a lieutenant commander when I was in command. Mr. Kelly. That is an O-4, correct? Commander Elliott. Yes, sir. Mr. Kelly. And the lowest level in which decisions on sexual assault are made is the O-6 level. Is that correct? Commander Elliott. Yes, sir. Mr. Kelly. And I don't mean--but there are different levels of command and different levels of training. I got a pre- command course before going to battalion command, so there are different levels, and you commanded at the O-4 level. Commander Elliott. That is correct, sir. And I am not exactly sure how the other services, but I know with the Navy, we had O-6s that were going to command in the same legal class. I don't know if they got anything additional. Mr. Kelly. Thank you. Commander Elliott. Yes, sir. Ms. Speier. Mr. Bacon. Mr. Bacon. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I appreciate all of you being here today. And I got to hear most of the testimony up front, but I am also on the Ag Committee, so I had to run out real fast. But it was heartbreaking stories and testimonies of what happened to you, and so I just--I feel the pain and the hurt from that, and I just thank you for sharing. I think it is important for our society and the folks watching to know this. I think Ms. Bapp made a very important statement, though, that speaks to me is that we have infallible people. Infallible commanders. I would also just say, though, we have infallible judges--or I should say fallible judges. I am sorry. We have fallible commanders, we have fallible judges, fallible district attorneys, and we see imperfection everywhere we go in this area, though it is never acceptable. I was a five-time commander with the Air Force, and I inherited one unit that had the highest sexual assault rates I think we had in the Air Force at Ramstein. And so I--my first week in command, it is, like, what are we going to do about this? We can't just sit idly by. I have to build a plan. So I studied it, and I just knew that education was vital, but also make it clear I would hold people accountable. And what we ended up doing is if we didn't have a verdict that was certain, we went to court-martial. The victim had her chance--typically her--to speak in front of a jury but also the accused, and our conviction rates went up, and we ended up having one of the lowest sexual assault rates in the Air Force after about a year. Another thing I did is every time I got a conviction, I put a picture of the guilty and how many years in jail they got, and I wanted every squadron to see it. I wanted deterrence out there as well. So I guess my whole point is I think there are examples of failures, but I think there is also thousands of examples of conscientious commanders who pour their hearts out to get this right every time. And so I just--I would like to ask one question of General Darpino. Do we have--would we have any more confidence that a judge in a local locality or a district attorney would have any more infallibility than what we see with our commanders who, for the most part, 99 percent of the time, love their service, love their units? Just your thoughts. General Darpino. I think you have hit on a key point, which is what I was saying earlier, is that this is--the violence against women is a societal problem, and society as a whole has to grapple with this. We are the canary in the coal mine, whatever it is that you want to say, and there are a lot of organizations out there that do a lot of work to track this kind of stuff. And what we find is, and I am just looking for my card where I write down numbers because I am--even though I am a lawyer, I am, in fact, a number person, you know, like the Rape, Abuse, Incest National Network, the RAINN, which considers themselves the largest anti-sexual violence organization, their numbers are horrifying. And when 50 percent of our cases--our court-martials are sexual assault cases, 995 of 1,000 women--accused walked free in the civilian sector. You know, one out of six women are attempted rapes outside. And so, if having lawyers in charge of this system would fix the system, we wouldn't see numbers like this in civilian society. And so, no, I don't believe that lawyers are any better. And when we send our folks for training that do these sexual assault cases to DA's office and sexual crimes units, that too is what they see, because prosecution rates matter to attorneys. Conviction rates matter to attorneys. Commanders care about good order and discipline, and it is not perfect. And there is a lot of discussion about commanders, and we are talking about company command and below. We are not talking about the O-6 and above who handles the sexual assault cases. And I don't mean to minimize in any way the other panel members' testimony. Mr. Bacon. Madam Chair, thank you for your time. I belong to two other subcommittees, but this is an important issue, and I appreciate you giving me a chance to join you. Ms. Speier. Okay. Thank you. Again, our gratitude to all of you for participating in the panel, and you are now free to go. And we will reorganize for the next panel. Thank you. Ms. Speier. All right. We are going to have votes shortly, so we are going to get started. Okay. Our second panel consists of Lieutenant General Charles Pede, if I am pronouncing that right. No? Pede. He is the Judge Advocate General for the U.S. Army; Vice Admiral John Hannink, the Judge Advocate General for the U.S. Navy; and Lieutenant General Jeffrey Rockwell, the Judge Advocate General for the Air Force; and then Major General Daniel Lecce? General Lecce. Lecce, ma'am. Ms. Speier. Lecce--Staff Judge Advocate to the Commandant of the Marine Corps. All right. General Pede, would you like to begin? STATEMENT OF LTG CHARLES N. PEDE, USA, JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL, U.S. ARMY General Pede. Chairwoman, Ranking Member Kelly, and members of the committee, thank you. We have the best Army in the world because of commanders, not in spite of them. Our Army is the most effective force on the battlefield because our commanders and our soldiers are the products of a justice system that for 243 years has rested in the hands of those who fight and win our wars, commanders. I have worked for over 15 years of my professional life, often directly with this committee, confronting sexual assault, especially with the tectonic changes to Article 120 in 2007. I was personally involved in Secretary Garin's efforts to resource this fight and had a direct hand in the establishment of our Special Victim Prosecution program, as well as the Special Victim Counsel program. I, therefore, thank this committee for its continued commitment and leadership on this issue. I appear before you recognizing there is still much work to do. While I disagree with the characterization of individual lapses as systemic failures, one omission or failure is too many. I recognize there is much the Army and the services can still do. As the Army Judge Advocate General, I tell you that we are relentless, relentless in getting after this problem, protecting victims, our communities, and of course, the rights of those accused. In short, the commander has always been and will always be the fulcrum to any solution in the Army at every level of command, and so it is and must be with sexual assault. All of us in this room recognize there is no easy solution. I have been fighting this crime hand in hand with commanders for 31 years, but certainly no solution excludes military commanders. And singling out the supposed 1 percent who convene general court suggesting these are the only ones affected by the proposed legislation fundamentally misses the point about command authority and the sublime relationship between the leader and the led. Look at our current housing crisis. We outsource responsibility for housing our soldiers. Who do our families look to for solutions? Who do you look to to drive change? Soldiers look to their commanders. Every townhall is hosted by a commander. This is because there is no set of leaders on this Earth better trained, better educated, resourced, and more consistently successful than the American commander. The notion that stripping commanders of authority over serious crimes will reduce crime, result in more or better prosecutions or higher conviction rates is simply not supported by any empirical evidence. Indeed, the proposition, in my view, is actually disapproved by the empirical evidence. We know this. In the multitude of congressionally mandated studies where diverse panels of experts have exhaustively examined the military justice system, hearing from hundreds of witnesses who gave thousands of hours of testimony, they reported back to you one critical, consistent conclusion: The commanders should not be removed from the justice system. In fact, the DAC-IPAD's third annual report issued just last week that has been referenced determined that in 95 percent of the cases reviewed, commanders acted correctly in charging decisions. They found, and I quote, no systemic problem with command decision-making regarding preferral of charges for penetrative sexual assaults. I am often told in response, General Pede, you haven't moved the needle, and it is getting worse. Ten years ago, sexual assault trials comprised 18 percent of trials in Army courtrooms. The needle--and my apologies. In 2018, that percentage is now 50 percent, 5-0. The needle has indeed moved, and this is because commanders at all levels have set priorities, established expectations, and have driven culture change. This is not a coincidence. The scope of sexual assault crisis in our society--in our Army is as big as the society from which we draw our soldiers. As you know, our Army is refreshed every year with 70,000 new soldiers from every city in America, and we draw from that society, and we face the common problems. A highly esteemed university recently released a study that showed 48 percent of their females experience sexual assault during their time at the university. Within that 12-month period, 18 to 22 percent had reported an assault. I share these statistics not to place blame elsewhere or to distract from the 4 percent--4.4 percent prevalence rate in the Army, but simply to reflect that it is a societal problem, and it is a demographic issue, in many respects, that we all own and have to address, because we do. The Army owns this problem. Discipline is the soul of the Army, as George Washington said, and it still is. It is in our DNA. In my professional view, taking away a commander's decision over discipline, including the decision to prosecute and court- martial, will fundamentally compromise--fundamentally compromise--the readiness and lethality of our Army today and on the next battlefield. And let's remember, you are trying to give this authority to those sitting before you. One hundred twenty years of legal experience on this panel is saying our Nation will regret it in the next battlefield. The Justice Act of 2016 you passed fundamentally altered our justice system starting just 12 weeks ago. We spent the last 18 months training those changes. The changes only began 12 weeks ago. I would appreciate--while I appreciate the desire to see change, with a criminal justice system, we must exercise some measure of strategic patience to ensure our changes have healthy consequences. Further, we cannot forget our obligations to those accused of crime. We each in this room have---- Ms. Speier. You have already exceeded your time by a minute, so could you wrap up, please? General Pede. Yes, ma'am. We have a sacred obligation to protect those accused of crime as well, ma'am. And I fully acknowledge we are not perfect, but we are truly an accountable system. I thank your committee for the time, ma'am. [The prepared statement of General Pede can be found in the Appendix on page 107.] Ms. Speier. Thank you. Vice Admiral Hannink. STATEMENT OF VADM JOHN G. HANNINK, USN, JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL, U.S. NAVY Admiral Hannink. Madam Chair, Ranking Member Kelly, and members of the subcommittee, thanks for the chance to appear before you today. The testimony of the first panel reminds everyone of the importance of our efforts to reduce sexual assault with the goal of eliminating this crime from our ranks. April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month, and it is worthwhile to keep in mind that we all share this goal, even when there are multiple views on the precise steps that will help us get there. In my written statement, I outline the role of the commander in the adjudication of sexual assault charges in the Navy. First, there is an independent investigation by the Naval Criminal Investigative Service and then an independent prosecution merits review by Navy prosecutors. This information, the investigation, the prosecution merits review, along with input from the victim or victim's legal counsel, then goes to an O-6 commander for disposition decision. And if the case proceeds in the military justice system, there are further reviews involving both lawyers and commanders. These commanders are known as the Sexual Assault Initial Disposition Authority and the General Court-Martial Convening Authority, and I support the role these commanders have in making the initial disposition decision on charges and in referring cases to court-martial. My written statement also noted what I think are some threshold questions in considering whether to remove the role of the commander. Question one, would removing commanders' convening authority decrease the prevalence of sexual assault? Question two, would it increase the reporting of sexual assault incidents? And, question three, would it improve case disposition decisions? Now, on the first two questions, whether a change would decrease the prevalence or increase the reporting of sexual assault, we have the benefit of the 2014 report of the congressionally directed Response Systems Panel. And after studying changes to the military justice system of our allies and hearing from many witnesses on both sides of the argument, this was the conclusion shared by seven of the nine panel members: that the evidence does not support the conclusion that removing convening authority from senior commanders will reduce the incidents of sexual assault or increase reporting of sexual assault. And today, when I speak with leadership of our Victims Legal Counsel program, their sense is similar. Based on their work, they don't think that the convening authority issue is a significant barrier to reporting. Now, on the third question, whether removal of convening authority would improve case disposition decisions, as mentioned before, we have the benefit of the recent report of the DAC-IPAD. In its review of 164 sample cases, DAC-IPAD concluded that the disposition decision of commanders were reasonable in 95 percent of them. As noted before, the committee concluded that its review revealed no signs of systemic problems with the reasonableness of commanders' decisions on whether to prefer charges in cases involving a penetrative sexual assault. And I look forward to the report that the DAC-IPAD will submit next year in March 2020, that will expand its work to include the 2,000 investigative cases it is reviewing. I am grateful for these studies that have been conducted. The military justice system might be the most studied criminal justice system over the past decade, and we welcome the scrutiny. That scrutiny benefits everyone who serves in the Armed Forces, those who are victims, those who are accused of crimes, and those who work within the system to achieve its objectives, to be a system of justice and a system that enables commanders to maintain good order and discipline. I am also grateful for the support of this subcommittee and the organizations represented by the first panel to ensure we continue to make improvements to our response systems and prevention efforts. Thank you, again, Madam Chair and Ranking Member Kelly. [The prepared statement of Admiral Hannink can be found in the Appendix on page 119.] Ms. Speier. Next--thank you--Lieutenant General Rockwell. STATEMENT OF LT GEN JEFFREY A. ROCKWELL, USAF, JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL, U.S. AIR FORCE General Rockwell. Chair Speier, Ranking Member Kelly, distinguished members of the panel, military commands, led by commanders, are responsible for executing our National Defense Strategy to defend the Nation and win America's wars. Throughout our history, we have accomplished this because of four simple yet key components: the best training, the best equipment, the best--excuse me--people, and, fourth, the most important element that binds together the other three, discipline. Discipline lies at the heart of command and control. Commanders command and control airmen, armed with the best training and equipment, to execute our national defense missions. Discipline is commanders' business, since they have the ultimate responsibility to build, maintain, and lead the disciplined force necessary to succeed in combat across multiple domains. Discipline makes us ready. Discipline makes us lethal. To build this disciplined force to execute these missions, the military justice system works to strike a careful constitutional balance between the competing equities and the justice process. That balance is best struck when, at every critical junction of the process, a commander is armed with the relevant facts, including victim input, and advised by a staff judge advocate before making a decision on the next critical step in the process. We also know that good order and discipline is best when command operates and executes discipline across the entire continuum of discipline. From prevention efforts and setting standards, duties, and command climate on the left side of that continuum, to the response of courts-martial, on the right side, when standards aren't met, and operating everywhere in between those two points. This disciplinary continuum embodies the concepts of unity of command, unity of effort, and command and control needed to build a ready, lethal, and disciplined force to execute the missions the Nation asks of us. This committee and Congress have been instrumental in our efforts to improve military justice with regard to sexual assault. You have focused a system to be more fair and timely, to appropriately address allegations of misconduct that fosters progressive discipline designed to deter and rehabilitate wrongdoing, to respect the dignities--the dignity of victims of crime, to protect the rights of the accused, and to maintain the trust of airmen and the American people. We have increased our commander training to ensure they are better prepared to exercise all of their authorities. Before taking command, all commanders receive extensive legal training so they fully understand their responsibilities under the code and the manual. Officers receive similar training at all levels of their professional military education, as do all enlisted members. Most importantly, as a matter of process, safeguards have been incorporated and gaps closed to maximize legal advice during every key phase or decision point of a case, through investigation, adjudication, and final disposition. The existing authority of the Judge Advocates General mandate that this critical legal advice be independent. Command decisions are informed and evidentiary standards are applied at each stage of the process with the advice of a staff judge advocate, along with input from a prosecutor, a victim, and the accused. A critical component to our fight against sexual assault in the military has been our obligation to build trust and confidence in victims. We know that victims must be empowered at every stage of the process. Survivors must believe that their privacy can be protected and that they can regain a sense of control in their lives. Sexual assault is a personal violation and victims must be heard without having the process itself further making them feel victimized. Victims must know that they have a say before any decision is made. Our special victims' counsel have become a vital teammate in our sexual assault prevention and response arsenal. Our work must continue to prevent and respond to criminal behavior within our ranks. Our next steps, I believe, should focus on addressing evolving issues of retaliation, collateral misconduct, timeliness, and education on the general deterrent effect generated by the cases tried. While there has been much progress, we as judge advocates remain committed to survivors of sexual assault. We remain committed to airmen, and we remain committed to providing sound, independent, legal advice to our commanders in a military justice system that has made us the most ready, lethal, and disciplined force in the world. Thank you for hearing us today. [The prepared statement of General Rockwell can be found in the Appendix on page 132.] Ms. Speier. Thank you. General Lecce. STATEMENT OF MAJGEN DANIEL J. LECCE, USMC, STAFF JUDGE ADVOCATE TO THE COMMANDANT OF THE MARINE CORPS, U.S. MARINE CORPS General Lecce. Madam Chair, Ranking Member Kelly, and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. As fit given the title of this hearing, I would like to focus on commanders. The ethos of the Marine Corps is every Marine a rifleman, and this ethos demands that every Marine officer be capable of leading Marines in combat, including judge advocates. I have been very privileged to have been selected for command, both as a lieutenant colonel, as the commanding officer of Marine Security Guard Company in the Middle East, and as a colonel, as a commanding officer of Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. For Marines, and I believe the other service, the pinnacle of a career is serving as a commander. But with the mantle of command comes great responsibilities. Commanders are both responsible and accountable for the morale, welfare, and discipline of the unit. These are not just words, but the foundational tenet of life in the military. At the end of the day, a commander is responsible for preparing and leading his or her Marines into combat, where the cohesion and discipline of the unit may literally be the difference between life and death. When mothers and fathers of this Nation send their sons and daughters to become Marines, we make a sacred promise: that we will train their sons and daughters to the utmost of our ability, that we will protect their welfare, and if we must go into harm's way, these young men and women will be ready mentally, physically, emotionally to fight and win this Nation's wars. As a commander, it is your obligation to be fully invested in the welfare of your Marines, to know each one of them, to employ them as a team, to treat them as the family that they are. You must be confident that if you are ordered into combat, your Marines go as a team, as a family. In the Marine Corps, you commit your adult life to preparing to becoming a commander, preparing so that you are ready to meet the highest of obligations and to ensure that you uphold the promise you made to the mothers and fathers of your Marines. As a commanding officer of Marine Corps Base Camp Lejeune, I was a general court-martial convening authority responsible for bringing charges in the most serious criminal cases, including sexual assault cases. Upon taking command, I trusted my staff judge advocate and my legal support teams to provide the advice I required to execute my duties, including my role as convening authority. But perhaps just as important to me was my equal opportunity advisor, because he helped me keep my finger on the pulse of the command. My equal opportunity advisor provided me invaluable counsel, keeping me connected to all echelons of the command, from assisting me in developing, administering, and interpreting, and debriefing required command climate surveys, to highlighting areas of concern, to identifying Marines who required individualized attention. My equal opportunity advisor helped me fulfill my obligation to know my Marines and look out for their welfare. My point is, highlighting these facts, is that although our judge advocates are highly trained and capable professionals, they are not commanders. They do not carry the responsibility and obligation to stay connected to the command, to build a team, to build a family. Commanders, and commanders alone, carry this responsibility. Judge advocates provide legal advice. To remove the commander from the military justice system robs the commander of a critical tool for ensuring discipline is enforced, welfare is ensured, and justice is served. As the most senior commander in our Marine Corps, the Commandant has been intensely focused on improving our culture. Unequivocally, he has stated on countless occasions that one sexual assault is too many, retaliation is unacceptable, and that ostracism is antithetical to our warrior culture. To combat these destructive behaviors, the Commandant issued a Marine Corps Order on prohibited activities and conduct. This order, published in June of 2018, criminalizes a wide spectrum of destructive behaviors, including sexual harassment, hazing, discrimination, retaliation, bullying, ostracism, as well as misconduct committed online or via social media. While the Commandant's efforts over the last years have positively reinforced a culture where sexual assault and retaliation are not tolerated, more remains to be done, and the Marine Corps is prepared to do it. In the Marine Corps, we never lose sight of the fact that our Marines are our greatest assets. We are obligated to ensure each Marine's welfare and to return our Marines to their loved ones and back to this great Nation better for having served. Thank you once again for allowing me to testify. I look forward to working with you and answering your questions. [The prepared statement of General Lecce can be found in the Appendix on page 145.] Ms. Speier. Thank you all. Let me first say how grateful we are for the service--for your long service in the military. You have each, on one level or another, expressed how you feel that one sexual assault is too many, but we have 15,000 of them a year. And as you know, only 5,000 of them report, and of those, maybe 500 go to a court-martial, and of those, only about 250 are convicted. You heard the testimony of these three victims. They were telling the truth, and yet they were treated so poorly that the process was worse than the rape. I would like to have each of you comment on what you heard from each of them. Lieutenant General Pede. General Pede. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. It is--it is a difficult thing to listen, and I respect the members of the first panel. I--it is an unfortunate, worse than that, experience, that they endured. And I think that is, frankly, ma'am, what motivates all of us. It has always motivated me as a professional, as an officer, as someone in law enforcement and the profession of law, to right the wrongs that we---- Ms. Speier. So what would you do differently, having heard their stories? General Pede. Ma'am, exactly. One, I would--and it is what we try and do every day, which is to, once reported, provide a level of care to them that provides a restorative process, that gets them back where they need to be, and then holds the right person accountable. So it is a robust, well-resourced, well- trained investigative process. And then from a prosecution and a defense standpoint, ma'am, as a very well-educated, resource-trained bar, that includes an extraordinary bar of special victim counsel now as well. So what we are trying to do is bring all of those resources to bear on the very cases that they bring to our attention. Ms. Speier. Vice Admiral, is there anything that you would recommend based on what you heard from those victims? Admiral Hannink. Madam Chair, from Lieutenant Commander Elliott, my takeaway was that, as is reflected in the last military survey on investigations and the justice process, discretion really matters. And I think we have to be sure that we have people fully trained. The one commander that she mentioned that didn't keep discretion, I could see how hurtful that was in this circumstance. What we owe Lieutenant Commander Elliott, and everybody like her, is her story about the previous commanding officer, though, the one that supported her, as she called it, beyond the call of duty. And as General Pede indicated, the Victims' Legal Counsel program that she also indicated was a great support. Ms. Speier. Lieutenant General Rockwell. General Rockwell. Madam Chair, as attorneys, we are process people, and when--because you are a process person, sometimes you lose empathy. And as you sit and listen to the victims, as they go through this process--and this process of reporting through investigation, through adjudication, that gets you ultimately to accountability--it is easy to focus on the process and lose the fact that the empathy that you need to have for somebody walking through that process. You ask what we can do better. I think it is an integration. It is an integration with regard to, as you walk through that process, we have a lot of people trying to help along the way. And as we look at how we integrate throughout that process, from what SARCs do, to what victim advocates do, to what investigators do, to what prosecutors, defenders, and special victims' counsel do, there is methodologies to look at to better integrate that. That better integration gives you more speed, and I think it gives you empathy for the victim in a case or, for that matter, a witness in any case, who is actually the one walking through it. Ms. Speier. All right. Major General Lecce, we are going to have to go and vote and then we will return. Do you have a quick comment you would like to make? General Lecce. Ma'am, I can't speak as to why this happened to the survivors that testified---- Ms. Speier. No, but I mean, based on what you heard, I want to know if you have gleaned anything from it that you would take back and want to do differently. General Lecce. Well, first of all, as I stated in my opening statement, commanders need to be held accountable. They are accountable for what happened here. Ms. Speier. What happened to that commander who was conflicted, who continued to handle the case, and now we have a West Point grad, who we invested a lot of money in, who is no longer serving? General Lecce. Ma'am, I can't speak to that specific case. But what I can say is, there are systems in place to deal with these things. As the ranking member said, the IG, the Inspector General, we have a very robust practice--I am not the IG, but I work very closely with him--for these retaliation and ostracism cases. By regulation, only the IG can handle a reprisal or retaliation case. And that is one step. Echoing what General Rockwell said, we have professionalized our victim advocates, our victims' legal counsel, our Victim Witness Assistance program to be more robust and more supportive of victims along the way in the process. Ms. Speier. All right. Thank you. We are going to return. [Whereupon, at 4:18 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] ======================================================================= A P P E N D I X April 2, 2019 ======================================================================= PREPARED STATEMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD April 2, 2019 ======================================================================= [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] ======================================================================= DOCUMENTS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD April 2, 2019 ======================================================================= [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] ======================================================================= QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING April 2, 2019 ======================================================================= QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MS. SPEIER Ms. Speier. How feasible is it for your service to develop an independent prosecution chain, along the lines of the Marines' reform? General Pede. An independent prosecution chain--as I understand the question--is not feasible--and I do not view the Marine Corps as having such a system. If the intent is to have an independent rating scheme, Army prosecutors are already rated by legal supervisors. While some of those supervisors are rated by commanders or a chief of staff, the prosecutors themselves are supervised by lawyers. In accordance with both Army regulations and The Judge Advocate General's Corps policy, all trial counsel have at least two, more senior, judge advocates in their rating chain; exceedingly few trial counsel rating chains also include a commander. Moreover, the Army's special victim prosecutors are always rated only by other judge advocates and not by the commanders they advise. In short, Army trial counsel are already almost wholly supervised by judge advocates, and not commanders. The Army organizes to best meet its unique combat responsibilities in support of the joint force. The Army is also unique among the services--it tries as many courts-martial as the other Services combined, and it tried more than 800 cases in a deployed setting from 2003 to 2011. Ensuring these requirements are met requires the flexible assignment of Army prosecutors. Finally, it is a requirement of law--both arising from statute and the code of professional responsibility--as well my own expectation, that every judge advocate, trial counsel or not, will offer the best legal advice possible in support of their client, whether that client be the U.S. government, a Soldier, or a Family member, independent of the interests of any specific commander or unit. Ms. Speier. What happens when a prosecutor's ethical and legal expertise contradict commanders' opinions? What happens when justice demands that case be brought forward, and the prosecutor is unable to because the commander refuses to act? General Pede. In 31 years of active duty service, I have yet to encounter this situation--and therefore counsel against any policy change that uses this basis as a cause for change. As judge advocates and commanders have repeatedly testified before congressional oversight committees, they cannot think of a case in which a Staff Judge Advocate recommended referral of charges to courts-martial and the commander refused, triggering statutorily required review by the service secretary required by Section 1744 of the Fiscal Year 2014 National Defense Authorization Act. A commander's decision whether to prosecute a case is informed by an ongoing dialogue with his or her judge advocate. When necessary, that dialogue can be extended up the chain of command and along the judge advocate technical chain. There is almost never a disagreement that cannot be resolved in this process. If there is, there is a process for that--Section 541 of the Fiscal Year 2015 National Defense Authorization Act permits a local prosecutor to send a case to the Army's chief prosecutor for review and, if necessary, referral to the Secretary of the Army for action. Ms. Speier. Two weeks ago, the Department of Defense Inspector General released a report revealing that in 77 of 82 cases reviewed, DOD officials either did not ask or did not document that they asked victims of sexual assault whether they want cases prosecuted in military or civilian courts. Why did this failure occur? Can you each commit to me that your services will rapidly put in place a system to ensure victims are asked whether they prefer their cases to be tried in civilian or military courts? General Pede. I disagreed with the findings in the Department of Defense Inspector General (DOD IG) report. The DOD IG equated a failure to document the victim's preference with the failure to ask about that preference. The law does not require documentation and therefore the report's conclusions are misleading. In all but a few cases reviewed, we demonstrated that we had, indeed, asked the victim their preferences and those cases were resolved in the forum the victim supported. Additionally, Special Victim Counsel represented all but a few of the victims. That said, the Army moved beyond the requirements of Section 534 of the Fiscal Year 2015 National Defense Authorization Act statute and beginning in 2018, required memorialization of the victim's preference. It is also worth noting, as the DOD IG report did, that the statute as drafted raises multiple practical concerns with its implementation. For instance, when a civilian prosecutor's office with jurisdiction declines to prosecute a case early in the investigation, it effectively means there is no option for a civilian prosecution. Yet, in that circumstance, the statute requires the victim to be asked to express a preference when there is no real choice. This is not practical and it is not helpful to a victim. Finally, when a victim exercises their right to decline to participate in any prosecution, there will likely be no documentation of the victim's expressed preference for venue (such was the case for three of the Army cases without documentation). Anecdotally, the Criminal Law Division of the Office of The Judge Advocate General conducted a data call in August of 2018 to get a sense of preferences expressed by victims. In that data call, 79% of victims expressed a preference for military prosecution, 3% of victims expressed a preference for civilian prosecution, and 18% of victims expressed no preference. This overwhelming support of our system is consistent with anonymous DOD-wide survey data in which servicemembers who have reported a sexual assault rated ``civilian law enforcement'' with the lowest satisfaction rates of all personnel involved, including commanders, military law enforcement, Victim Advocates, healthcare personnel, and Special Victim Counsel. Ms. Speier. Are you aware of penetrative offenses under your jurisdictions being sent to special and summary courts martial while statute requires them to be tried at general courts martial? What is the cause of these failures to comply with the law? Can you commit to more closely tracking these cases to ensure compliance and eliminating these instances? General Pede. I believe the Army is fully compliant with the law and I have no information to suggest we are not. I understand that the recent Defense Advisory Committee on Investigation, Prosecution, and Defense of Sexual Assault in the Armed Forces (DAC-IPAD) report may have implied that multiple penetrative offenses were referred to summary or special courts-martial in violation of the NDAA. It is my understanding, however, that the DAC-IPAD will be sending a letter to your committee to clarify that report on this specific issue. The Army will continue to monitor all referrals to ensure compliance with Section 534 of the Fiscal Year 2015 National Defense Authorization Act. Ms. Speier. Do you believe recent expansions of the concept of apparent unlawful command influence hampers commanders and compromises their ability to set the necessary cultures within their units? How would your recommend changing the definition of UCI? General Pede. The concern underlying the judicially created doctrine of apparent unlawful command influence--namely, that a well- informed member of the public would believe that the court-martial process is fair, to the accused, to the victim, and to the community-- is of vital consequence to our system. It is a bedrock principle of justice that justice must not only be fair, it must also appear to be fair. As the Supreme Court has recognized, all are entitled to a fair trial, not necessarily a perfect one. The harmless-error doctrine reflects this balance. On March 27, 2019, however, the Department of Defense submitted Legislative Proposal Number 337. Consistent with Judge Ryan's dissent in United States v. Barry, this proposal, if enacted, would re-institute the harmless-error analysis into the apparent unlawful command influence doctrine. It would also provide clearer guidelines for Commanders in how they can build a culture of dignity and respect without violating the necessary restrictions on unlawful command influence. I believe that the proposal merits serious consideration by the Congress. Ms. Speier. Are the recent decisions from CAAF jeopardizing convictions? General Pede. A conviction that is not consistent with the requirements of the law is not a conviction that should stand. The justice systems in the United States, both civilian and military, rest on the ability of our independent courts to make determinations of guilt, free from any consideration other than the parties' arguments, the evidence, and the law. Military justice is also a process, a case- by-case, appeal-by-appeal adjudication. Over time, that process may reveal that it is appropriate to amend the underlying law. Any evaluation to amend the underlying law must be holistic and thorough, as reform efforts' second- and third-order effects can be counterproductive or even harmful and those negative effects are not always identifiable in advance. Any reform must be consistent with the requirements of fundamental fairness; it must reflect our concern for the dignity and respect of all persons. Ms. Speier. One area I am concerned with regarding the SVC program is the ability of the special victims lawyer to operate independent of any command, similar to defense counsel. Do you agree that special victim's counsel should not serve in billets that challenge their duty to their client? From what I understand, many of the Army's SVC are also legal assistance attorneys. Does this present a conflict? General Pede. I agree, special victim's counsel (SVC) should not serve in billets that challenge their duty to their client. I also do not believe there is a conflict created by SVCs serving part of their time as legal assistance attorneys. Every judge advocate who is authorized to and does enter into an attorney-client relationship with an individual--whether that judge advocate be a defense counsel, SVC, or legal assistance attorney--owes that client a duty to zealously advocate for that client's interests--even when those interests conflict with the chain of command or the Government. This is a bedrock principle of the legal profession. While SVCs do provide legal- assistance services, when a judge advocate provides legal assistance services, they are working on behalf of their client and not the government. Legal assistance attorneys are evaluated on how well they advocate for their clients, not based on their support to the government, which is not part of their job in legal assistance billets. More importantly, the priority for a SVC serving in an authorized SVC position is representation of their special victim clients. In addition, the SVC program continues to refine its procedures to ensure that these standards are met. In June 2018, I directed the assignment of field grade officers to serve as dedicated SVC regional managers. These regional managers provide technical supervision and guidance to the SVCs in their region. The SVC program office, which oversees and sets policy for the SVC program, discusses the importance of SVC independence at all certification and staff judge advocate courses. I have also directed the SVC program office to conduct site visits to continually iterate the importance of SVC independence to all staff judge advocate offices in the Army. We will continue to assess these efforts to ensure the independence of our SVCs Ms. Speier. Would you agree that following the Air Force's model and providing the SVC program with additional resources like dedicated paralegals will help strengthen the program's role in the military justice process? Will you commit to expanding the use of paralegals? General Pede. I am committed to maximizing the use of paralegals for SVCs, though there are resource limitations affecting their availability. Since the SVC program's inception five years ago, we have trained 113 military and civilian paralegals in the same certification course we send all SVCs. In addition, in January 2017, we added a dedicated SVC paralegal-specific break-out training at each SVC certification course. SVC paralegals also participate fully in annual regional SVC training to familiarize themselves with key players in the local support systems, investigative offices, and military justice arenas. Army paralegals are a highly trained and motivated resource, and they are, consequently, a much-sought after asset. The Army will continue to assess the distribution of its paralegal assets to ensure that every attorney is effectively supported in his or her mission. Ms. Speier. How feasible is it for your service to develop an independent prosecution chain, along the lines of the Marines' reform? Admiral Hannink. The Navy's prosecution chain of command is set up similarly to the Marine Corps' prosecution chain of command. The Navy uses nine Region Legal Service Offices (RLSOs), with each managing the trial counsel for the particular region. Each RLSO has a Trial Department that is supervised by the Senior Trial Counsel (STC). All trial counsel receive Fitness Reports from the RLSO Commanding Officer, who is an O-6 judge advocate reporting to Commander, Naval Legal Service Command/Deputy Judge Advocate General of the Navy. Ms. Speier. What happens when a prosecutor's ethical and legal expertise contradict commanders' opinions? What happens when justice demands that case be brought forward, and the prosecutor is unable to because the commander refuses to act? Admiral Hannink. As described in my written testimony, prosecutors in the Navy provide Prosecution Merits Review to inform the decision of disposition authorities. Likewise, Preliminary Hearing Officers and Staff Judge Advocates inform and make recommendations to convening authorities. It is uncommon for a commander to deviate from a prosecutor's recommendation but that authority ultimately lies with the commander subject to a few constraints imposed by statute. For example, Article 34, UCMJ states that a convening authority may not refer a specification under a charge to a general court-martial unless the staff judge advocate (SJA) advises in writing that there is probable cause to believe that the accused committed an offense. And under the provisions of the FY14 National Defense Authorization Act, if the SJA recommends referral and the general court-martial convening authority declines to refer such a charge, the Secretary of the military department must review the case. Finally, all Judge Advocates are bound by the rules of professional responsibility within the Navy as well as the state where they are licensed to practice law. The Navy JAG Corps' professional responsibility rules require any judge advocate who knows that an official intends to act in a manner that is adverse to the Department of the Navy's legal obligations must take reasonably necessary measures to address the situation. These measures may include asking the official to reconsider, seeking an additional legal opinion, or raising the matter to higher authority in the chain of command. If there are further questions about this process and the prosecutor's role in it, the Chief Prosecutor of the Navy and the Head of the Navy Trial Counsel Assistance Program are available to provide further explanation. Ms. Speier. Two weeks ago, the Department of Defense Inspector General released a report revealing that in 77 of 82 cases reviewed, DOD officials either did not ask or did not document that they asked victims of sexual assault whether they want cases prosecuted in military or civilian courts. Why did this failure occur? Can you each commit to me that your services will rapidly put in place a system to ensure victims are asked whether they prefer their cases to be tried in civilian or military courts? Admiral Hannink. In most of the Navy cases reviewed by the DOD IG, the victim's preference was sought but not effectively documented. In some cases, preference was not sought because civilian authorities already turned down the cases. In those circumstances, the statute does still require the victim to be asked to express a preference, though there is no real choice involved. There were also instances where we could not establish whether we asked victims their preference at all, but it is worth noting that in all but one of the cases reviewed by the DOD IG, a Victim's Legal Counsel was assigned to assist victims in understanding and advocating for their rights in the process. The Navy is committed to ensuring victims are asked about their preference for civilian or military prosecution. Since the report was released, our Region Legal Service Offices have adjusted their practice to document victim preferences in each case, regardless of whether prosecution by civilian authorities is an option. Ms. Speier. Are you aware of penetrative offenses under your jurisdictions being sent to special and summary courts martial while statute requires them to be tried at general courts martial? What is the cause of these failures to comply with the law? Can you commit to more closely tracking these cases to ensure compliance and eliminating these instances? Admiral Hannink. There are no known penetrative offenses in the Navy that have been referred to a summary court-martial or a special court-martial. The DAC-IPAD identified a few cases in which an Article 120 penetrative offense was charged at the beginning of the process and the case was later referred to a special court-martial or a summary court-martial. We have confirmed that in each of the cases identified by the DAC-IPAD, the penetrative offense(s) was in fact dismissed prior to referral to a special court-martial or summary court-martial. Additionally, we conducted a review of all cases in which a penetrative offense was charged and confirmed there are no instances where a penetrative offense was referred to a special court-martial or a summary court-martial. Ms. Speier. Do you believe recent expansions of the concept of apparent unlawful command influence hampers commanders and compromises their ability to set the necessary cultures within their units? How would your recommend changing the definition of UCI? Admiral Hannink. Commanders are responsible for good order and discipline, and must be able to speak candidly about destructive behaviors while not interfering in individual cases. At a minimum, court rulings have forced commanders to examine how their actions, including candid discussions on culture, might adversely impact the due process of a service member. The issue of unlawful command influence was researched and discussed by the Joint Service Committee (JSC) on Military Justice and based upon that research, the DOD and the Administration submitted a legislative proposal to modify Article 37, UCMJ. The legislative proposal clarifies the ability of a commander to address cultural issues within their unit. I support this proposal. Ms. Speier. Are the recent decisions from CAAF jeopardizing convictions? Admiral Hannink. CAAF is an independent court responsible for performing an independent review of cases arising under the military justice system. CAAF must ensure that lower court decisions are legally correct and consistent with due process. It is within their authority to set aside convictions. Ms. Speier. One area I am concerned with regarding the SVC program is the ability of the special victims lawyer to operate independent of any command, similar to defense counsel. Do you agree that special victim's counsel should not serve in billets that challenge their duty to their client? Admiral Hannink. Navy Victims' Legal Counsel (VLC) are only assigned duties within the Victims' Legal Counsel Program (VLCP) and therefore are completely independent. The VLCP has operated as an entirely separate chain of command since its inception in 2013. The VLCP has a Chief of Staff who is independent of all Commanding Officers for the fleet, Region Legal Service Offices and the Defense Service Offices. The VLCP Chief of Staff reports directly to Commander, Naval Legal Service Command/Deputy Judge Advocate General of the Navy, and is directly responsible for and signs all Officer Fitness Reports and Enlisted Evaluations for the program. Based on the completely separate chain of command, the VLCP avoids any conflicts of interests with other interested parties. Ms. Speier. Would you agree that following the Air Force's model and providing the SVC program with additional resources like dedicated paralegals will help strengthen the program's role in the military justice process? Will you commit to expanding the use of paralegals? Admiral Hannink. The Navy is committed to properly resourcing the Victims' Legal Counsel Program (VLCP), including providing the right number and type of support personnel. The Navy provided administrative (Yeoman) support personnel to VLCP attorneys from the early phases of the VLC Program. The Navy JAG Corps commits to periodically reevaluating the support requirements of VLCP attorneys, including whether paralegals (Legalman) should replace or add to the Yeomen currently assigned. Ms. Speier. How feasible is it for your service to develop an independent prosecution chain, along the lines of the Marines' reform? General Rockwell. The Air Force has two separate reporting chains of lawyers involved in military justice--the functional chain attached as legal advisors to the command chain and the litigation support chain that reports to the commander of the Air Force Legal Operations Agency. Developing another ``prosecution chain'' would be an inadvisable triplication of effort. Furthermore, the Air Force organizes, trains, and equips to execute its mission sets. Legal support follows mission, which results in having individual legal offices at Air Force installations across the United States and around the world. Experienced Staff Judge Advocates with military justice experience provide candid legal advice on the ground to installation commanders, with reach back to expert trial counsel at our regional Circuit litigation offices, which fall under an independent chain of command. Ms. Speier. What happens when a prosecutor's ethical and legal expertise contradict commanders' opinions? What happens when justice demands that case be brought forward, and the prosecutor is unable to because the commander refuses to act? General Rockwell. In our experience, commanders value the sage advice of their Staff Judge Advocates (SJAs) and work in concert with them and the attorneys prosecuting their cases. Legal limitations and oversight measures built into the military justice system guard against potential abuses of commander authority. As a matter of law, a convening authority may not refer any case to a general court-martial (GCM) if the SJA determines that probable cause does not exist. Art. 18(a), UCMJ. Thus, if an SJA finds a lack of probable cause, the convening authority is prohibited from referring a case to a GCM. Conversely, if an SJA believes a penetrative sexual assault case should be referred to a court-martial, but the general court-martial convening authority (GCMCA) refuses to refer it, the case must be forwarded to the Secretary of the Air Force for review. The Secretary will conduct an independent review of the case file and make a decision on referral. FY14 NDAA, 1744(d). To date, no GCMCA has gone counter to their SJA and refused to refer a case. Additionally, the Chief of the Air Force's Government Trial and Appellate Counsel Division (AFLOA/JAJG) may request that the Secretary of the Air Force review any decision not to refer a penetrative sexual assault case to court-martial, regardless of whether the SJA and convening authority agree or disagree on referral. FY15 NDAA, 541. See also Air Force Instruction (AFI) 51-201, Administration of Military Justice, para 9.11. Moreover, per SECDEF policy, only special court-martial convening authorities in the grade of O-6 or above have initial disposition authority over penetrative sexual assault cases. Complementary Air Force policy further requires that a general officer serving as a general court-martial convening authority review all initial disposition decisions in penetrative sexual assault cases. These two policies in tandem ensure that sexual assault cases get the attention of at least two high-level commanders with significant command and military justice experience, and prevents a single commander from disposing of a case without review. It is critical to recognize that, although an SJA works for their commander, their obligation to provide independent legal advice is derived from The Judge Advocate General's statutory authority under 10 U.S.C. Sec. Sec. 806 and 9037 to provide independent legal advice to the Secretary of the Air Force and Chief of Staff of the Air Force and is consistent with their ethical obligations as licensed attorneys. A subordinate judge advocate who believes his or her commander is acting unethically has the right and the responsibility to raise that issue through legal channels to superior judge advocates who can work with senior commanders to promptly intervene. A subordinate judge advocate always has the right and responsibility to push critical issues up through the JA chain, if warranted. Ms. Speier. Two weeks ago, the Department of Defense Inspector General released a report revealing that in 77 of 82 cases reviewed, DOD officials either did not ask or did not document that they asked victims of sexual assault whether they want cases prosecuted in military or civilian courts. Why did this failure occur? Can you each commit to me that your services will rapidly put in place a system to ensure victims are asked whether they prefer their cases to be tried in civilian or military courts? General Rockwell. The FY15 NDAA established the requirement to solicit a victim's preference on jurisdiction for specific enumerated offenses alleged to have occurred within the United States. FY15 NDAA, Sec. 534. Air Force policy implemented this requirement on 30 July 2015 through Air Force Guidance Memorandum 2015-01 to Air Force Instruction (AFI 51-201), Administration of Military Justice. This guidance required Air Force authorities to solicit the input of a victim of sexual assault (or attempt thereof) as to preference on civilian or military prosecution; however the guidance did not require the solicitation or the victim's response be in writing or otherwise documented. Consultation with a victim is required in all cases alleged to have occurred in the United States. However, the Air Force legal offices audited by the DOD IG for purposes of the report erroneously believed that consultation was not required for cases which were under exclusive federal jurisdiction and victims were not consulted about their preference for prosecution in those cases. The Air Force has implemented additional safeguards to ensure that victim preference is requested. The 18 January 2019 update to AFI 51-201 amended this requirement to document a victim's preference as to prosecution by a court-martial or a civilian court in writing and to seek a victim's preference prior to requesting jurisdiction from a civilian entity. AFI 51-201, para 4.18.2.3 and 4.18.2.4. Additionally, as of June 2019, all wing legal offices will be inspected under Article 6, UCMJ, to ensure they are seeking, documenting, and maintaining victim preferences. Moreover, legal offices must follow case preparation checklists, all of which require soliciting a qualifying victim's preference. Finally, standards promulgated pursuant to Article 140a, UCMJ, will require the Services to collect data showing whether victim preference was solicited in qualifying cases. Ms. Speier. Are you aware of penetrative offenses under your jurisdictions being sent to special and summary courts martial while statute requires them to be tried at general courts martial? What is the cause of these failures to comply with the law? Can you commit to more closely tracking these cases to ensure compliance and eliminating these instances? General Rockwell. The Air Force is not aware of any penetrative offenses being sent to special or summary courts-martial in violation of the statutory requirement to refer qualifying offenses to a general court-martial. FY14 NDAA, Sec. 1705, limited jurisdiction over penetrative sexual assault and forcible sodomy offenses to general courts-martial. The provision went into effect on 24 June 2014 and applied to qualifying offenses committed on or after that date. Since 1 January 2013, the Air Force has referred 946 adult and child penetrative sexual assault offenses to courts-martial. None of those cases resulted in a penetrative offense being referred to a special or summary court-martial after Sec. 1705 went into effect. We note the Third Annual Report of the Defense Advisory Committee on Investigation, Prosecution, and Defense of Sexual Assault in the Armed Forces (DACIPAD) found two instances where penetrative offenses were referred to a special court-martial (one in FY15 and one in FY16). Closer review of these cases shows that neither instance violated Sec. 1705. One case was originally referred to a general court-martial, but was reduced to a special court-martial pursuant to a pretrial agreement (for other non-sexual offenses) after the victim withdrew her participation. The other case went to an Article 32 hearing with an eye towards referral to a general court-martial, but the victim withdrew her participation prior to referral. The remaining drug charges were subsequently referred to a special court-martial. This is consistent with the clarification letter provided by the DACIPAD to the House Armed Services Committee, dated 23 April 2019, which stated that in almost all instances across the Services, penetrative sex assault cases are only referred to a forum other than a general court-martial if the sexual assault allegation is dismissed or downgraded to a non- penetrative offense. Moreover, in both cases the sexual assault offenses occurred prior to 24 Jun 14, so they were not subject to Sec. 1705 despite the fact the convening authorities in both instances followed the spirit of the law. The military justice system contains multiple safeguards against referring penetrative cases to summary or special court-martial. For example, Article 34, UCMJ, requires the commander to consult with a judge advocate prior to referring charges to a special or general court-martial. Additionally, Air Force policy requires a general court-martial convening authority to review initial disposition decisions on all penetrative offenses. Referral is considered initial disposition. Thus, if a special court-martial convening authority referred a penetrative sex offense to a special court-martial, the special court-martial convening authority would be required to notify the general court-martial convening authority within thirty days of referral. At that point, the general court-martial convening authority and his/her staff judge advocate would have an opportunity to intervene. Ms. Speier. Do you believe recent expansions of the concept of apparent unlawful command influence hampers commanders and compromises their ability to set the necessary cultures within their units? How would your recommend changing the definition of UCI? General Rockwell. Recent cases finding apparent unlawful command influence (UCI) have not compromised a commander's ability to instill good order and discipline or ``set the necessary culture'' within their command by expressing their general philosophy on all levels of misconduct and establishing overall behavioral expectations nor have the rulings hampered a commander's ability to take appropriate action in response to an Airman's misconduct. Judge advocates ensure commanders are educated on UCI and recent rulings to ensure commanders understand what is and is not acceptable messaging. UCI is a complex military legal concept. The outcome of an appellate case, or a motion at the trial level, is determined by the factual findings unique to that case, application of a consistent test for UCI, and a weighing of the totality of circumstances. The underpinnings of the prohibition against apparent UCI are rooted in the constitutional rights of an accused to receive due process and a fundamentally fair trial without the political pressure for a predetermined outcome. Historically, these appellate decisions have clarified the lines between what is and is not acceptable messaging by a commander to the unit. It is important to point out that changing who convenes a Court, prefers charges or refers a case would not change the dynamics of unlawful command influence. Judge Advocates can commit unlawful command influence. The case law is to ensure that political pressure and Command influence does not interfere with an accused's right to receive due process and a fundamentally fair trial. We also note a Department of Defense legislative proposal on unlawful command influence, making amendments to Article 37, UCMJ, has been transmitted to House and Senate Armed Services Committees for FY20 NDAA consideration. This proposal would amend the statutory unlawful command influence provision of the UCMJ to expressly permit convening authorities and commanding officers to engage in communications with subordinates that do not endanger the fairness of any military justice proceeding, thereby facilitating senior leaders' messaging to their subordinates concerning activities that harm good order and discipline, enhancing senior leaders' ability to deter misconduct by personnel subject to their authority. This will eliminate confusion regarding a senior military leader's ability to properly communicate with subordinate commanders on military justice matters. Ms. Speier. Are the recent decisions from CAAF jeopardizing convictions? General Rockwell. CAAF has recently overturned convictions in several sexual assault cases. Some of the overturned cases were due to their interpretation of new legislation regarding sexual assault. As with previous legislation, it takes time for the courts to determine whether the litigants and trial judges are properly interpreting the changes to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Similarly, appellate courts also must review new legislation to determine whether it withstands constitutional scrutiny. Oftentimes, appellate courts render their decisions one, two, or sometimes three years after the trial occurs or takes place. Appellate courts are tasked with the responsibility of applying the law to the facts and circumstances of each individual case, and determining whether a verdict was improperly obtained due to error in the proceedings. With this responsibility comes the inherent potential to overturn convictions based on abuses of discretion by the trial court, changes in the interpretation of the law, or plain error committed during the court-martial. By ensuring the law is correct through transparent judicial review we ensure trust, confidence and reliability in the system. Ms. Speier. One area I am concerned with regarding the SVC program is the ability of the special victims lawyer to operate independent of any command, similar to defense counsel. Do you agree that special victim's counsel should not serve in billets that challenge their duty to their client? General Rockwell. Maintaining an attorney-client relationship that is free from any conflict of interest is a fundamental mandate of the Air Force Rules of Professional Conduct. To avoid potential conflicts, the Air Force has always had independent chain of command for special victims' counsel (SVCs) which runs through the Air Force Legal Operations Agency. SVCs do not report to any installation-level commander. Victims' feedback has been, consistently, that having their own independent attorney is something they value very much. Ms. Speier. Why did the Marine Corps reorganize their prosecution community in 2012? What objectives did it fulfill? What are the benefits of having prosecutors supervised by other prosecutors and not commanders? General Lecce. The Marine Corps reorganized its entire legal community--not just its prosecutors--to optimize the delivery of legal services. The reorganization consolidated resources and legal experience into mutually supporting legal centers within a geographic area. These changes improved the ability of our senior judge advocates to train and mentor junior counsel, which in turn brought improvements not just in military justice practice but also in civil and administrative law and legal assistance matters. Allowing all legal counsel to be supervised by a more experienced attorney permits focused professional mentorship and accountability in order to ensure a fair military justice system. Even prior to the 2012 reorganization, senior prosecutors supervised Marine Corps trial counsel. However, it is important to note that every judge advocate is a member of a chain of command, though not necessarily the chain of command of the convening authority in a particular case. Ms. Speier. What happens when a prosecutor's ethical and legal expertise contradict commanders' opinions? What happens when justice demands that case be brought forward, and the prosecutor is unable to because the commander refuses to act? General Lecce. The Marine Corps has recorded no case in which a Commander acted against the advice of a Staff Judge Advocate (SJA) to refer a charge to court-martial. The law places significant limits on a Commander's discretion in order to protect victims and those accused of offenses. For example, a Commander's discretion is limited by Article 34, which prohibits sending a charge to general court-martial unless the SJA advises a Commander there is probable cause to believe the accused committed the offense. Where a Commander decides not to send certain sexual offenses to a court-martial against the advice of the SJA, the law requires this decision to be reviewed by the Secretary of the Navy. Similarly, if a prosecutor believes strongly that certain sexual offenses should be sent to a court-martial, that officer may request the Chief Prosecutor of the Marine Corps review the Commander's decision not to send the case to trial. Finally, a senior Commander in the chain of command, with the advice of legal counsel, may assume jurisdiction of a case if it becomes clear that a junior Commander is not acting in the interests of justice. Ms. Speier. Two weeks ago, the Department of Defense Inspector General released a report revealing that in 77 of 82 cases reviewed, DOD officials either did not ask or did not document that they asked victims of sexual assault whether they want cases prosecuted in military or civilian courts. Why did this failure occur? Can you each commit to me that your services will rapidly put in place a system to ensure victims are asked whether they prefer their cases to be tried in civilian or military courts? General Lecce. The Marine Corps consults victims on their jurisdictional preference for case disposition in every case required by law. In 18 of the 21 cases reviewed by Department of Defense Inspector General (DOD IG), the Marine Corps consulted with the victim to determine their preferences concerning prosecution of the case. These preferences were recorded in the Case Analysis Memo (CAM), a detailed analysis of the prosecutorial merit of a case. In three of the 21 cases, victims were not specifically asked about their jurisdictional preference because the civilian authorities had already declined to prosecute their cases. The Marine Corps requires prosecutors to solicit and document victim preference. Prosecutors document that preference in a CAM to inform SJA advice to the Commander on whether to proceed with a case, accord proper weight to that preference, and to enable its analysis in the proper context. My staff is currently in the process of publishing a major modification to our regulation on legal services. That modification provides updated guidance to judge advocates on all aspects of military justice, including specific independent documentation of victim preference for military or civilian jurisdiction which may be released to auditors. Ms. Speier. Are you aware of penetrative offenses under your jurisdictions being sent to special and summary courts martial while statute requires them to be tried at general courts martial? What is the cause of these failures to comply with the law? Can you commit to more closely tracking these cases to ensure compliance and eliminating these instances? General Lecce. The Marine Corps has sent no cases involving a penetrative sexual assault charge to either a special or summary court- martial since the implementation of Section 1705 of the National Defense Authorization Act of Fiscal Year 2014 (NDAA FY 14). The Defense Advisory Committee on Investigation, Prosecution, and Defense of Sexual Assault in the Armed Forces (DAC-IPAD) identified several Marine Corps cases where penetrative offenses were initially charged but later went to trial at special or summary court-martial. In all but one of these cases, the penetrative offenses were dismissed prior to the court- martial as part of a pretrial agreement. The remaining case was tried at a special court-martial, but involved misconduct which occurred prior to the change in the law. That case also involved a pretrial agreement where the accused agreed to plead guilty to non-penetrative offenses. The Marine Corps is committed to closely tracking sexual assault cases to ensure our continued compliance with the law. To that end, the Marine Corps is currently evaluating several options to implement the standards recently approved by the Secretary of Defense pursuant to Article 140a. Ms. Speier. Do you believe recent expansions of the concept of apparent unlawful command influence hampers commanders and compromises their ability to set the necessary cultures within their units? How would your recommend changing the definition of UCI? General Lecce. A Commander's responsibility to maintain good order, discipline, and welfare includes the authority to set a healthy culture and address destructive behaviors in a meaningful way. While judicial decisions may cause Commanders to consider the impact of their actions on the fair adjudication of individual cases, that consideration is a valuable means of protecting the rights of accused service members. At the direction of the Secretary of Defense, the Joint Service Committee (JSC) recently drafted a legislative proposal to modify the definition of UCI contained in Article 37. The legislative proposal clarifies command authority to address destructive cultural issues and behaviors within their unit. I support that proposal. Ms. Speier. Are the recent decisions from CAAF jeopardizing convictions? General Lecce. The authority of CAAF to set aside convictions is an important legal safeguard. As with appellate courts in civilian jurisdictions, CAAF independently reviews the decisions of lower courts to ensure those decisions are legally correct. Ms. Speier. One area I am concerned with regarding the SVC program is the ability of the special victims lawyer to operate independent of any command, similar to defense counsel. Do you agree that special victim's counsel should not serve in billets that challenge their duty to their client? General Lecce. The Marine Corps Victims' Legal Counsel Organization (VLCO) has operated independently since its inception in 2013. Marine Corps Victims' Legal Counsel (VLC) report to a Regional VLC, who reports to the Officer in Charge of the VLCO. The Marine Colonel in charge of the VLCO reports directly to me. The supervisory VLC attorneys handle all matters related to performance evaluations and professional responsibility for Marine VLCs. Ms. Speier. Would you agree that following the Air Force's model and providing the SVC program with additional resources like dedicated paralegals will help strengthen the program's role in the military justice process? Will you commit to expanding the use of paralegals? General Lecce. The Marine Corps VLCO has long employed civilian paralegals. The nine civilian paralegals currently serving in the VLCO are instrumental to representation of VLCO clients. These paralegals work hand in hand with judge advocates to form a strong office team, and help provide continuity of operations. The VLCO recently added one civilian paralegal at Marine Corps Base Hawaii, and has plans to add another this year at Marine Corps Air Station Cherry Point. The Marine Corps fully supports the mission of the VLCO and will ensure it has adequate resources to support the program. ______ QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MRS. LURIA Mrs. Luria. 1. Can you elaborate on the statement, ``I trust military lawyers to make that decision, meaning that decision about the cases, more than I trust commanders''? 2. Do you acknowledge that a 30-plus-year commander has had to go through numerous decisions where they had to take into account the order and discipline of their command and the UCMJ, and the use of that? Colonel Christensen. [No answer was available at the time of printing.] Mrs. Luria. Do you agree that there are many remedies available for these cases within the military chain of command? Can you elaborate on them? General Darpino. [No answer was available at the time of printing.] [all]