[House Hearing, 115 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] DETERMINING ELIGIBILITY FOR DISABILITY BENEFITS: CHALLENGES FACING THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SECURITY OF THE COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ SEPTEMBER 6, 2017 __________ Serial No. 115-SS06 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Ways and Means [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 33-616 WASHINGTON : 2019 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS KEVIN BRADY, Texas, Chairman SAM JOHNSON, Texas RICHARD E. NEAL, Massachusetts DEVIN NUNES, California SANDER M. LEVIN, Michigan PATRICK J. TIBERI, Ohio JOHN LEWIS, Georgia DAVID G. REICHERT, Washington LLOYD DOGGETT, Texas PETER J. ROSKAM, Illinois MIKE THOMPSON, California VERN BUCHANAN, Florida JOHN B. LARSON, Connecticut ADRIAN SMITH, Nebraska EARL BLUMENAUER, Oregon LYNN JENKINS, Kansas RON KIND, Wisconsin ERIK PAULSEN, Minnesota BILL PASCRELL, JR., New Jersey KENNY MARCHANT, Texas JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York DIANE BLACK, Tennessee DANNY DAVIS, Illinois TOM REED, New York LINDA SANCHEZ, California MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania BRIAN HIGGINS, New York JIM RENACCI, Ohio TERRI SEWELL, Alabama PAT MEEHAN, Pennsylvania SUZAN DELBENE, Washington KRISTI NOEM, South Dakota JUDY CHU, California GEORGE HOLDING, North Carolina JASON SMITH, Missouri TOM RICE, South Carolina DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona JACKIE WALORSKI, Indiana CARLOS CURBELO, Florida MIKE BISHOP, Michigan David Stewart, Staff Director Brandon Casey, Minority Chief Counsel ______ SUBCOMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SECURITY SAM JOHNSON, Texas, Chairman TOM RICE, South Carolina JOHN B. LARSON, Connecticut DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona BILL PASCRELL, JR., New Jersey VERN BUCHANAN, Florida JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York MIKE KELLY, Pennsylvania LINDA SANCHEZ, California JIM RENACCI, Ohio JASON SMITH, Missouri C O N T E N T S __________ Page Advisory of September 6, 2017, announcing the hearing............ 2 WITNESSES Bea Disman, Acting Chief of Staff, Social Security Administration 6 Kathryn Larin, Director of Education, Workforce, and Income Security Issues, Government Accountability Office.............. 22 Elizabeth McLaren, Bureau Chief, Iowa Disability Determination Services, on behalf of National Council of Disability Determination Directors........................................ 39 Marilyn Zahm, President, Association of Administrative Law Judges 50 Lisa Ekman, Director of Government Affairs, National Organization of Social Security Claimants' Representatives, on behalf of the Social Security Task Force Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities................................................... 62 QUESTIONS FOR THE RECORD Questions submitted by The Honorable Sam Johnson, Chairman, Subcommittee on Social Security, Committee on Ways and Means, to Kathryn Larin, Director of Education, Workforce, and Income Security Issues, Government Accountability Office.............. 97 Questions submitted by Amy Shuart, Staff Director, Subcommittee on Social Security, Committee on Ways and Means, to Elizabeth McLaren, President-Elect, National Council of Disability Determination Directors........................................ 100 Questions submitted by The Honorable Sam Johnson, Chairman, Subcommittee on Social Security, Committee on Ways and Means, to Bea Disman, Acting Chief of Staff, Social Security Administration................................................. 103 Questions submitted by The Honorable Sam Johnson, Chairman, Subcommittee on Social Security, Committee on Ways and Means, to Marilyn Zahm, President, Association of Administrative Law Judges......................................................... 118 SUBMISSIONS FOR THE RECORD Peter J. Martinelli, U.S. Administrative Law Judge, Office of Hearings and Appeals, Social Security Administration (SSA)..... 119 National Association of Disability Examiners (NADE).............. 128 Philip B. Litteral, President, National Association of Disability Representatives (NADR)......................................... 138 Anthony M. Reardon, National President, National Treasury Employees Union (NTEU)......................................... 142 DETERMINING ELIGIBILITY FOR DISABILITY BENEFITS: CHALLENGES FACING THE SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION ---------- WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 6, 2017 U.S. House of Representatives, Committee on Ways and Means, Subcommittee on Social Security, Washington, DC. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in Room 2020, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Sam Johnson [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. [The advisory announcing the hearing follows:] ADVISORY FROM THE COMMITTEE ON WAYS AND MEANS SUBCOMMITTEE ON SOCIAL SECURITY CONTACT: (202) 225-1721 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Wednesday, September 6, 2017 SS-06 Chairman Johnson Announces Hearing on Determining Eligibility for Disability Benefits: Challenges Facing the Social Security Administration House Ways and Means Social Security Subcommittee Chairman Sam Johnson (R-TX), announced today that the Subcommittee will hold a hearing entitled ``Determining Eligibility for Disability Benefits: Challenges Facing the Social Security Administration.'' The hearing will focus on the Social Security Administration's plan to reduce the hearing backlog and claimant wait times, other efforts to modernize and improve the disability determination process, and tools available to expedite decisions for those with certain severe conditions. The hearing will take place on Wednesday, September 6, 2017 in room 2020 of the Rayburn House Office Building, beginning at 10:00 a.m. In view of the limited time to hear witnesses, oral testimony at this hearing will be from invited witnesses only. However, any individual or organization may submit a written statement for consideration by the Committee and for inclusion in the printed record of the hearing. DETAILS FOR SUBMISSION OF WRITTEN COMMENTS: Please Note: Any person(s) and/or organization(s) wishing to submit written comments for the hearing record must follow the appropriate link on the hearing page of the Committee website and complete the informational forms. From the Committee homepage, http:// waysandmeans.house.gov, select ``Hearings.'' Select the hearing for which you would like to make a submission, and click on the link entitled, ``Click here to provide a submission for the record.'' Once you have followed the online instructions, submit all requested information. ATTACH your submission as a Word document, in compliance with the formatting requirements listed below, by the close of business on Wednesday, September 20, 2017. For questions, or if you encounter technical problems, please call (202) 225-3625. FORMATTING REQUIREMENTS: The Committee relies on electronic submissions for printing the official hearing record. As always, submissions will be included in the record according to the discretion of the Committee. The Committee will not alter the content of your submission, but we reserve the right to format it according to our guidelines. Any submission provided to the Committee by a witness, any materials submitted for the printed record, and any written comments in response to a request for written comments must conform to the guidelines listed below. Any submission not in compliance with these guidelines will not be printed, but will be maintained in the Committee files for review and use by the Committee. All submissions and supplementary materials must be submitted in a single document via email, provided in Word format and must not exceed a total of 10 pages. Witnesses and submitters are advised that the Committee relies on electronic submissions for printing the official hearing record. All submissions must include a list of all clients, persons and/or organizations on whose behalf the witness appears. The name, company, address, telephone, and fax numbers of each witness must be included in the body of the email. Please exclude any personal identifiable information in the attached submission. Failure to follow the formatting requirements may result in the exclusion of a submission. All submissions for the record are final. The Committee seeks to make its facilities accessible to persons with disabilities. If you are in need of special accommodations, please call 202-225-1721 or 202-226-3411 TDD/TTY in advance of the event (four business days notice is requested). Questions with regard to special accommodation needs in general (including availability of Committee materials in alternative formats) may be directed to the Committee as noted above. Note: All Committee advisories and news releases are available at http://www.waysandmeans.house.gov/ Chairman JOHNSON. Good morning to all of you, and welcome to today's hearing on the challenges Social Security faces when deciding if a person should receive disability benefits. Since I have been Chairman, we have held 18 hearings, including today, on the disability insurance program, on one topic or another. Now, that is a lot of hearings, but the disability insurance program is too important for Social Security not to get it right. Americans pay taxes on their hard-earned wages for the promise of future Social Security benefits when the worker retires, is unable to work due to a disability, or dies. These benefits are an important part of a family's financial security, and Americans rightfully expect that when they apply for benefits, if they are eligible, that they will receive them quickly. But for those applying for disability benefits, that isn't the case. Today, over 1 million people are waiting for a hearing with Social Security administrative law judges, and on the average these folks will wait around 600 days to get that hearing. That is nearly 2 years. And that is after waiting almost 4 months, on the average, for an initial decision, and more than 3 months for a second look, known as reconsideration. While not all of them will qualify for benefits, all of these people deserve an answer in a timely fashion. And for those who don't qualify for benefits, these long wait times make getting back to work even harder. With backlogs at record highs, it is more important than ever for Social Security to ensure that the Compassionate Allowances program is working as intended. The Compassionate Allowances program was created in 2008 as a way to help those with the most severe impairments jump to the front of the line. But as we will hear today, this program doesn't always work the way it should. It is clear Social Security has serious problems when it comes to making sure people get the disability decisions as quickly as possible. But Social Security problems and the disability insurance program are more than just long wait times. Since 2003, Social Security's disability programs have been on the GAO's high risk list, in large part because of outdated criteria to determine eligibility for disability benefits. While some progress has been made, there is more work to be done to modernize Social Security's disability program. As we know, more money isn't always the answer. This year, the Social Security Administration received $90 million in dedicated funding to address a disability backlog. Yet, wait times continue to grow. Social Security used some of this funding in much-needed information technology improvements that should pay dividends in the long run. The Social Security Administration must find ways to be more efficient and modernize the disability insurance program. And today, we are going to hear about how Social Security plans to do just that. This won't be easy work and there is plenty to do. Social Security needs more than just a plan to fix this; it needs real leadership, and that is a large part of management's problem. Since 2013, Social Security has had an Acting Commissioner. In February, Ranking Member Larson and I, along with our colleagues from the Human Resources Subcommittee, sent a letter to President Trump, asking that he nominate a Commissioner without delay. Social Security needs a Senate-confirmed Commissioner who can lead the agency and focus on providing the service Americans expect and deserve. Social Security provides important benefits that many Americans rely on. With the right leadership and a good plan, Social Security can get back on the right track, but until then, this Subcommittee will keep asking tough questions about how to get this done. The American people deserve nothing less. And I am sure that my compatriot next to me agrees with that. With that, I will recognize Mr. Larson. Mr. LARSON. Well, I thank our distinguished Chairman, and I certainly concur with that. And, most importantly, concur in saying your continued leadership to your country in every capacity is greatly respected. And I would say that we are in agreement on a number of the problems that Social Security is set with. As you know, Mr. Chairman, millions of Americans rely on Social Security for basic income when they retire, or if they are severely disabled or can no longer work. Social Security is also there to help widows and children who have lost a parent. There is no private plan on the market, simply put, that can compare to Social Security. That is just a fact. And we are living that fact currently. And the people at Social Security deserve a lot of credit. In the midst of Harvey, and what is going on and the devastation and the people of Texas in the greater Houston area, and with Irma bearing down upon Florida now, I think it is heartening to know that Social Security hasn't missed a payment. And that on the ground, Social Security has people working with the Red Cross and other volunteer agencies. And even in the case where people do not have electronic transfers, that they are there to help and make sure that America gets what is America's number one program, the Social Security program. Natural disasters remind us of how important it is to fight back against calls to cut Social Security, and instead, come together in a bipartisan way to make commonsense adjustments to strengthen Americans insurance plan and protect the benefits Americans have earned and rely on. Both the Chairman and I have offered comprehensive plans to address the long-term shortfall in the Social Security system so Americans can continue to count on these benefits, whether they become disabled or retired or they should die prematurely, leaving their young children behind. By offering--while differing in our approaches, I hope we will be able to have a hearing. I keep on plugging for a hearing in Plano, Texas, with our distinguished Chairman, but anywhere in the country where we will have an opportunity to let the Congress work its will. Let the vitality of ideas come forward. We both share the same goals, we just have a different path of getting there. But today's hearing is focused on a problem of record-high delays in processing disability applications. This is just simply unacceptable, and deplorable, at its very core, of what everyday average citizens in this country have to endure. As the Chairman pointed out, more than 600 days? It is unconscionable. Since 2010, the number of beneficiaries, though, has grown by 13 percent as baby boomers reach retirement age, and especially as we saw after the Great Recession, a number of people who lost jobs and are scrambling for their positions. Social Security operating budget in this same period of time has fallen by more than 10 percent, after accounting for inflation. This has made it difficult, if not impossible, for Social Security to serve our constituents promptly when they need help the most. And that is where I think that money does matter, and that money in these budgets, so that we can get the front-line people who can handle these. We have had many discussions about technology and there has been technological advances, but not on the grand scale that we need to address this, and nothing on a scale that will assist us in a way that that caseworker can--who can deal with an individual personally, like what these people are currently enduring and suffering through in Houston. There are delays throughout the Social Security Administration. Today's hearing is focused on the lengthy waits, and the Chairman went over this, the administrative law judge who can decide on disability benefits appeal. These hearings are important. And for the first time, an applicant can get to meet face to face with an examiner, in many instances, these hearings are the first time the Social Security administrator has an applicant's complete medical evidence in hand, and the applicant can seek help from an attorney or a professional, which is important, given how complex the law is in this area. But so far this year, the wait, as the Chairman underscored, is 600 days. I have several constituents in my district, and I am so glad that Ms. Ekman is here today, and we are going to get to hear from her. But when you find that people are committing suicide; when you find that, in many cases, they lose their homes; when you look at what happens to them mentally, and I am talking about people that have served in our armed services who have post-traumatic stress, who then find that their greatest post traumatic stress becomes dealing with the Social Security system that is there to help them. And so, it is unconscionable that this goes on, and we have to solve this problem on behalf of the citizens we are sworn to serve, by correcting and making sure that America's primary insurance program for its citizens is there to provide them relief on a timely basis. I say ``insurance program'' because that is what it is. Citizens have contributed to this program. They deserve the best, as the Chairman underscored in his remarks, from this Committee. I am looking forward to the testimony today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you. As is customary, any Member is welcome to submit a statement for the hearing record. And before we move on to our testimony today, I want to remind our witnesses to please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes. However, without objection, all of the written testimony will be made part of the hearing record. We have 5 witnesses today, and seated at the table are: Bea Disman, Acting Chief of Staff, Social Security Administration; Kathryn Larin, Director of Education, Workforce, and Income Security Issues, Government Accountability Office; Elizabeth McLaren, Bureau Chief, Iowa Disability Determination Services, on behalf of the National Council of Disability Determination Directors; Marilyn Zahm, President, Association of Administrative Law Judges; and Lisa Ekman, Director of Government Affairs, National Organization of Social Security Claimants' Representatives, on behalf of the Social Security Task Force Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities. Ms. Disman, welcome. Thank you for being here, and please proceed. STATEMENT OF BEA DISMAN, ACTING CHIEF OF STAFF, SOCIAL SECURITY ADMINISTRATION Ms. DISMAN. Thank you, Chairman. Chairman Johnson and Ranking Member Larson, and Members of the Subcommittee, I am Bea Disman, Acting Chief of Staff for the Social Security Administration. Before I begin, on behalf of the Social Security---- Mr. LARSON. Is your mic on, ma'am? Ms. DISMAN. Yes. Before I begin, on behalf of the Social Security Administration, our thoughts are with those affected by the devastation in Texas and parts of Louisiana by Hurricane Harvey. We know Chairman Brady's district in Houston is especially affected by the storm, and that districts across Texas, like Chairman Johnson's, are providing disaster relief services. Even though some of our field offices were closed, as Mr. Larson said, we were on-site with FEMA over the weekend at three sites in Texas, and two in Louisiana, where Social Security and Supplemental Security Income beneficiaries could request immediate payment in person if they did not receive their regular payment. We will continue to be on-site in three locations in Texas this whole week. And all but two of our field offices in Texas have opened again. Thank you for inviting me to discuss how we are taking a systematic approach to modernize our disability policies and processes. We appreciate the Subcommittee for its ongoing oversight of the disability programs and your recommendations. With over 50 years of experience at Social Security, I can assure you that we are committed to serving the public effectively and compassionately, and to preserving the integrity of the Social Security programs. We are mission- focused, mission-driven, in developing disability policy and processes. The Social Security Act defines disability as the inability to engage in any substantial gainful activity due to a medically determinable physical or mental impairment that is expected to last at least 1 year or result in death. While this definition provides the statutory foundation of our Social Security disability insurance, and SSI income processes, our management of the program is also informed by both technology and policy advances. Changes in healthcare delivery require us to rethink our use of medical source information and its supportability and consistency. With that in mind, the policy updates and revisions we have recently made establish the foundation for an integrated systematic approach to disability decisionmaking. For example, we have revised most of our listings of impairment criteria. After we finish the updates in fiscal year 2018, we will then update the listings on a flow basis using a 3- to 5- year update cycle. We have the expertise in place to meet this objective. We are developing an occupational information system that will be the primary source of occupational information used in disability adjudication. We are committed to providing accurate, high-quality policy research in support of this initiative. And we have been working with the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which has been collecting data for us since 2015. We plan to implement this occupational information system in 2020, with the introduction of a vocational income tool that adjudicators will use to decide claims. In January 2016, we developed our plan to improve hearing workloads and service delivery. We updated this plan in August of 2017 to meet our changing needs. We greatly appreciate the $90 million anomaly funding that Congress has provided. The plan will permit us to enhance our business efficiencies, such as expanding our prehearing conferences. It will also allow us to increase our adjudicator capacity by hiring additional ALJs, decision writers, and other support staff. The plan also supports technological investments in our hearings process, such as using natural language processing to improve the quality of our decisions. The quality of our decisions has always been a paramount concern to us. To this end, we are establishing the Office of Analytics, Review, and Oversight, which will improve coordination on the oversight of the disability adjudication process. This new office centralizes all agency offices that analyze data in our disability programs and conduct quality reviews of our DDS and hearings process. We appreciate GAO's work in assessing our Compassionate Allowances, or CAL program. CAL delivers faster services by making policy compliant benefit decisions quickly to eligible individuals with the most serious disabilities. We are working to incorporate their recommendation to strengthen the CAL program. For example, we have updated our CAL website to be more transparent, and to include useful information for advocates to submit CAL conditions. CAL will be the focus of our November National Disability Forum. We are looking forward to holding our outreach meetings again, with an eye to improving how we communicate about our CAL policies and updates. We are enhancing our internal processes as well as developing and updating CAL conditions, including the development of enhancements that would give us more flexibility to the program. Thank you for your interest in discussing disability with us. SSA disability programs serve the most vulnerable segments of our society. Moving forward, we are and will continue to be mission-driven, mission-focused, as we serve the millions of individuals who need our help. We look forward to continuing to work with you and the Subcommittee. [The prepared statement of Ms. Disman follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, ma'am. Ms. Larin, you are recognized. STATEMENT OF KATHRYN LARIN, DIRECTOR OF EDUCATION, WORKFORCE, AND INCOME SECURITY ISSUES, GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE Ms. LARIN. Chairman Johnson, Ranking Member Larson, and Members of the Committee, I am pleased to be here today to discuss GAO's report on the Social Security Administration's Compassionate Allowance initiative. This initiative, known as CAL, expedites the processing of disability claims for those with certain conditions, a process that could otherwise take months. While CAL has been effective in fast-tracking eligibility determinations for some applicants, questions have been raised about how the initiative has been implemented. Specifically, my remarks today will focus on three issues: how SSA identifies conditions for inclusion on the CAL list; how claims are designated for expedited processing under CAL; and how SSA ensures the accuracy and consistency of CAL decisions. First, on identifying conditions for inclusion on the CAL list. We found that SSA lacks a formal and systematic approach for identifying CAL conditions. Since the CAL initiative began in 2008, the number of conditions included has grown from 50 to 228. Some conditions were added to the original list following a series of public hearings. But since 2011, SSA has relied primarily on advocates for certain diseases and disorders to bring conditions to its attention. However, SSA has not provided guidance on its web page on how to make suggestions. It has not consistently communicated with those who suggested additions about the status of their recommendations. And has not conducted outreach efforts to help ensure that all advocates are aware of the initiative. Relatedly, SSA does not have clear or consistent criteria that it uses to determine whether to designate a condition as CAL. As a result, SSA may be overlooking conditions that may be appropriate for inclusion. Turning now to how claims are designated as CAL. We found that SSA's procedures do not ensure that all claims are accurately identified for CAL processing. SSA relies primarily on selection software that uses a word search of the impairment description to determine whether the claim refers to a CAL condition. But when the text provided by claimants is ambiguous, incomplete, or inaccurate, the software won't catch the condition as a CAL condition. For example, we found that the software accurately flagged stage 4 lung cancer as advanced staged lung cancer, a CAL condition, but it did not flag a claim where the claimant described their condition as lung cancer terminal. Disability examiners have the opportunity to ensure that claims are correctly designated as CAL, even when the software makes errors, by manually changing a flag. But we found that staff vary in when or whether they add or remove CAL status from disability claims. SSA does not have clear guidance on when to change CAL designations. And we found that some examiners didn't understand the importance of making such changes. For example, we found that in 2016, over half of all disability offices did not manually add more than a single CAL designation to a claim. Finally, on the accuracy and consistency of CAL decisions. We found that SSA uses detailed condition descriptions known as impairment summaries as a key tool to ensure accurate claims decisions. However, these summaries are not regularly updated. We found that a third of CAL impairment summaries are more than 5 years old. Even though medical experts we consulted suggested that given advances in medical research, summaries should be updated every 1 to 3 years. In addition, while SSA collects data on things like denial rates for specific conditions and claims processing times, they don't leverage this data to inform improvements in the accuracy and consistency of CAL claims decisions. In conclusion, CAL is viewed positively by SSA and many stakeholders, and appears to be effectively expediting the processing of disability claims with this designation. However, weaknesses in CAL have led to unintended consequences. Absent improvements in how they identify CAL conditions, designate CAL claims, and ensure the accuracy and consistency of CAL decisions, SSA is missing an opportunity to make needed improvements to this important initiative. This concludes my prepared statement. I am happy to answer any questions you may have. [The prepared statement of Ms. Larin follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you very much. Ms. McLaren, welcome. Thank you for being here. You may proceed. STATEMENT OF ELIZABETH MCLAREN, BUREAU CHIEF, IOWA DISABILITY DETERMINATION SERVICES, ON BEHALF OF NATIONAL COUNCIL OF DISABILITY DETERMINATION DIRECTORS Ms. MCLAREN. Chairman Johnson, Ranking Member Larson, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to testify on behalf of members of the National Council of Disability Determination Directors, or NCDDD, and the State administrators of the Disability Determination Services, or DDS, across the Nation. Currently, we direct the work of over 16,000 employees, processing nearly 4.7 million disability cases a year. Today, I am here to provide you with the on-the-ground perspectives of the DDS community regarding the disability process. NCDDD recommends consistent policy application across the Nation. Therefore, we support the reinstatement of the reconsideration step, or the first appeal of the initial DDS denial to all States. Introduced in 1999 in 10 States, the prototype pilot removes the reconsideration appeal level in State DDS's. In these 10 States, the first level of appeal is a hearing with an administrative law judge at the Office of Disability Adjudication and Review. The President's 2018 budget request includes a proposal to reinstate reconsideration in those 10 States. We believe the reinstatement would help alleviate the ODAR backlog. Initially, this change would give those State citizens the same opportunity to get benefits sooner at less cost. NCDDD has previously supported this recommendation during testimony to this Committee in 2012. Then and today, we make this recommendation with the caveat that sufficient funding and additional resources must be included for DDS operations, chiefly related to staffing, funding, and infrastructure. NCDDD is in favor of continuing refinement of the Compassionate Allowance, or CAL initiative, and the associated fast-track processes. In fiscal year 2016, the DDS has processed over 16,000 CAL-only cases, and nearly 62,000 CAL- and QDD-designated cases. While these numbers represent a small percentage of the millions of initial claims the DDS's will process in a year, NCDDD believes in the CAL process, and we believe it should continue to be supported, but with some improvement. DDS's find that CAL is useful in identifying impairments and prioritizing cases that have a high potential for favorable determination. However, SSA's software has room for improvement, as it sometimes misidentifies cases as CAL, and at other times, fails to identify a CAL condition. We suggest refinements to the software to correct this issue. We also propose that SSA continuously update both the condition list and the impairment summaries for CAL. NCDDD is concerned about eliminating the use of the disability examiner authority for QDD in CAL cases at the end of fiscal year 2018, as required by the bipartisan Budget Act of 2015. This authority currently allows a disability examiner to make fully favorable determinations in certain QDD or CAL cases without the approval of a medical consultant. The DDS's give this authority to well-trained, seasoned adjudicators who can work independently without medical consultation. We believe the loss of this disability examiner authority will have detrimental impact on DDS operations and our service to those applicants who are most in need. NCDDD supports and recommends the development of a new occupational information system to replace the outdated Dictionary of Occupational Titles, or DOT, and its companion volumes. In a large percentage of cases, disability determinations require assessment of an applicant's ability to perform their tasked work. The 1991 edition of the DOT is a tool provided to the DDS's by SSA. This aged resource is a foundational piece of the disability determination process. We understand that SSA has been working with the Bureau of Labor Statistics on a solution, but the completion date is still years away. The lengthy timeline for this change is discouraging to the DDS community, as we now have to work through complex issues with outdated information and antiquated systems that are not aligned with the framework of determining disability. We advocate for haste in the development of a new tool. In conclusion, NCDDD advocates that we retain and/or implement tools and policies that enable the DDS's to continue to provide compassionate service to the public with timely, cost effective, high-quality disability determinations. On behalf of the NCDDD, thank you again for an opportunity to testify. I would like to thank our SSA partners for their collaboration, and commend the DDS staff across the Nation for their exemplary work for the American public. I would be glad to answer any questions you have. [The prepared statement of Ms. McLaren follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you. Ms. Zahm, welcome. Thanks for being here. You may proceed. STATEMENT OF MARILYN ZAHM, PRESIDENT, ASSOCIATION OF ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGES Judge ZAHM. Thank you. Chairman Johnson, Ranking Member Larson and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity to address you who have the stewardship of this program in your hands. I am Marilyn Zahm, a United States Administrative Law Judge for 23 years and elected President of the Association of Administrative Law Judges. The AALJ represents 1400 Federal administrative law judges located in 166 hearing offices across the country. I am speaking today on behalf of my judicial colleagues. SSA judges have been doing triage work in hearing rooms across the country without adequate time, resources, or staff. We urge Congress to draft legislation to revitalize the adjudicatory system. Each of you has heard stories from your constituents, just as we judges hear stories in our courtrooms, of the hardship that waiting 2 years for a hearing and decision takes on those who appear before us. However, there are some practical solutions to the problems that we face in the adjudicatory system. I will focus on four issues and our solutions: adopt an AALJ's recommended efficient adjudication procedures; protect and preserve the independent judiciary; provide judges with adequate support staff; and provide judges sufficient time to perform their work. I will briefly discuss each of these. Since 2011, the agency has imposed an estimated 1,000 changes to its policies and procedures manual, most of which are unnecessary, and simply add to the time it takes to hear and decide cases. We have proposed a number of solutions to make the adjudicatory process more efficient and more effective. Streamlined fully favorable templates, which, if implemented, could save half a million work hours per year. An expedited dismissal process that has the potential to conserve 400,000 hours annually. Rules of procedure for those who appear before us: properly drafted regulations; elimination of the 10 regional offices for ODAR; and redeployment of their 400 staff to the hearings operation. The American people are entitled to an impartial decisionmaker. The agency, however, continues to push an initiative that would disable all statutory protections to ensure that Federal agencies cannot improperly influence their adjudicators. It seeks to use in-house attorneys over whom it exercises control, instead of independent judges to hear and decide cases. This is not a new initiative. The agency proposed this last year, but under pressure from Congress, backed away from the proposal. Nevertheless, the agency has again announced this plan. There should be a chart appearing on your TV screens, which highlights the differences between ALJs and the agencies attorney examiners. As you can see, ALJs have decisional independence; in-house attorneys do not. They are controlled by the agency. If you control the people who make the decisions, you can control their decisions. The agency's probationary period proposal for newly hired ALJs with its argument for a judicial performance plan is also a well-worn attempt to eliminate statutory protections for the American people. This idea should be unequivocally rejected. We Americans deserve an independent judiciary. Judges are hamstrung without adequate support staff. Hiring freezes and attrition have eroded our clerical and attorney writing staffs. In many hearing offices, agency management has stripped judges of their assigned clerical support. In order to be efficient, judges need to work with the same staff. Each judge needs to have one clerical staff member and two attorneys assigned to us to work directly with us. Each disability case involves a person who is likely to desperately need income. Each claim paid has an approximate value of $300,000. Judges need to carefully and thoroughly evaluate each case, and we need sufficient time to do this job. The agency's quota, demanding judges dispose of 500 to 700 cases annually, was created by dividing the number of pending cases by the number of judges several years ago. This means that judges have an average of 2.5 hours to fully adjudicate a case. That means reviewing the entire file of hundreds of medical documents, sometimes thousands; holding a hearing at which the claimant and expert witnesses are questioned; drafting instructions for a decision and editing that decision; 2\1/2\ hours. Judges who take the time to follow the rules, regulations, and policies---- Chairman JOHNSON. Can you finish pretty quickly because your time is up. Judge ZAHM. Oh, I am sorry. Thank you for your attention. [The prepared statement of Judge Zahm follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you. Thank you. You know, it is hard to quiz a judge. Ms. Ekman, you are recognized. STATEMENT OF LISA EKMAN, DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, NATIONAL ORGANIZATION OF SOCIAL SECURITY CLAIMANTS' REPRESENTATIVES, ON BEHALF OF THE SOCIAL SECURITY TASK FORCE CONSORTIUM FOR CITIZENS WITH DISABILITIES Ms. EKMAN. Good morning, Chairman Johnson, Ranking Member Larson, Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for the opportunity to testify at this hearing. My name is Lisa Ekman, and I am the Director of Government Affairs for the National Organization of Social Security Claimants' Representatives, or NOSSCR. I am testifying today on behalf of the co-chairs of the Social Security task force of the Consortium for Citizens with Disabilities, or CCD. The Social Security disability programs provide the modest but vital benefits to millions of people with disabilities so severe they are unable to perform substantial work, many of whom would live in abject poverty or be homeless without them. Unfortunately, it took an average of 628 days for people who received an eligibility determination from an ALJ during the month of July to get access to these vital benefits. That wait time, which is far too long, is due, in large part, to chronic underfunding of the Social Security Administration's administrative budget since 2010. Prior to 2010, Congress invested resources in SSA, and SSA had been bringing the wait time down. SSA has shown what it can do when it is given adequate resources. Having to wait that long for a hearing can have devastating consequences for an individual and his or her family. Some people lose their homes, some declare bankruptcy and some even die. Here is one such story. Ms. S was a resident of McKinney, Texas, Mr. Chairman. She led a comfortable life, a middle-class life while working as a property manager and inspector. However, she developed a number of conditions, including chronic pain syndrome, fibromyalgia, cervical spondylosis, thoracic and lumbar spine pain, migraine headaches, intracranial hypotension, and fibromuscular dysplasia. This was followed by ever-increasing depression and anxiety, especially after she could no longer work. She tried every treatment doctors offered to reduce her pain and allow her to continue working, but by 2009, she just could not work anymore. She waited a long time for her hearing, which was finally scheduled in January of 2016, but she faced a terrible choice: miss an appointment for a test that might identify treatment to alleviate her pain that took months to schedule or postpone her hearing. The hearing was postponed and rescheduled for April 2016, but unfortunately, Ms. S committed suicide several weeks before her hearing. She was 45 years old. She received a posthumous fully favorable decision, and her 15-year-old son now receives survivor's benefits. My written testimony contains many other stories from-- collected from claimants' representatives from all over the United States which highlight the hardship and debt pain inflicted on individuals with disabilities when they are forced to wait months, or even years, for a hearing on their claim. And these heartbreaking stories are, unfortunately, becoming more commonplace. During fiscal year 2016, 8700 people died waiting for a hearing for an ALJ. That is nearly one every hour. The hearing backlog must be addressed. The Social Security task force respectfully recommends the following actions for Congress and SSA to consider: Congress should provide SSA with adequate funding to administer the Social Security Old Age Survivors and Disability programs. Only sustained, adequate funding, will allow SSA to reduce the time it takes to get a disability determination from an ALJ without negatively impacting customer service in its other core functions. The task force appreciates the backlog reduction efforts that SSA is making within the inadequate budget it receives. And the CARES Plan obtained some promising initiatives, but more should be done to assist the nearly 1.1 million people facing this daunting wait. SSA should work to ensure that a hearing is only held when necessary. And so first, SSA should do a better job of collecting full medical evidence at the initial application and reconsideration levels to ensure the decision is made on as complete and evidentiary record as possible. Second, SSA should resume a robust program of reviewing claims for on-the-record decisions, cases where recent evidence clearly shows eligibility without requiring a hearing. I understand that this is part of the CARES Plan, but the attorneys who would conduct these reviews are not doing them because they have been pulled into addressing another horrible backlog, and that is, the writing of decisions after a hearing is held. This is yet another example of the consequences of inadequate funding and trying to shift things around to make it work within the budget that they have. Third, Congress can assist to get the decision right the first time by facilitating reviews of more DDS denials, to ensure that these decisions are correct and prevent the need for an appeal. SSA should be permitted to use its dedicated program integrity funds to conduct these reviews, and they should increase the number of reviews. Finally, SSA should consider revising some recently or finalized regulations the task force believes will harm applicants who are otherwise eligible for benefits and leads to increased appeals, including the Federal court. One controversial rule regards the evaluation of medical evidence. The relationship between a person and their treating provider is unique, and opinions of treating providers deserve more weight than the opinion of someone who examines an individual once or reviews the claims file. The elimination of the treating physician rule is likely to lead to more appeals, more remands, and more delays as a result. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today, and I am happy to answer any questions you might have. [The prepared statement of Ms. Ekman follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman JOHNSON. I thank all of you. As is customary, for each round of questions, I will limit my time to 5 minutes, and ask my colleagues to also limit their questioning time to 5 minutes as well. Ms. Disman, as I said in my opening remarks, waiting almost 2 years to get a hearing decision is too long. Today, you have shown us Social Security's plan to get people hearings on time. But under that plan, people still aren't going to get a timely decision until at least 2022. Why is this plan taking so long? Ms. DISMAN. Thank you. Chairman JOHNSON. Turn your mic on. Ms. DISMAN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me first say, in being with the Social Security Administration for over 50 years, and starting as an interviewer of disability applications, I share the concern, as do my colleagues, with the long wait for hearings as well as other issues that have been identified by the witnesses here. To listen and read the stories that were presented about people being deceased before a hearing took place is unacceptable to all of us. However, we have to put everything on the table when we look at the hearings process. We have to look at all aspects of it. It is not just the hiring of human resources, it is being strategic; otherwise, you will have what happened before. We had an aggressive plan before. We reduced the hearings backlog. What happened was, baby boomers came of age, and they became disability-prone; the recession hit; the increased receipts of applicants were upon us. And, basically, we had not updated our business processes, or had the IT technology to really modernize where we are going. So why does the plan take so long? We have to look at all aspects of it, in addition to making sure that we have sufficient staffing. I am pleased to say that this year, we are hiring 130 ALJs in addition to the 200-and-some-odd that we hired last year. We are also hiring over 600 support staff. Unfortunately, we hired more ALJs and didn't have the comparable support staff, because the agency had a self-imposed freeze. So we were able to hire one aspect, but it makes sense if you are hiring more judges, you need the decision writers, and you need the support staff to work with them. So our commitment is to bring over 600 on before the end of the year, and that is with the help of the anomaly money. So it does take a long time to deal with systemic problems, but I want to assure you, for the Acting Commissioner and myself, all options are on the table. We are looking at all recommendations. As a matter of fact, Judge Zahm and I have met a couple of times, and I have actually looked at the 45 recommendations that she has made. One of them, which is a short form or template for the fully favorable, is something that the agency is looking at right now to move forward and to get agreement on a direction. So, we ask you to work with us. Your Committee has come up with great ideas, and we appreciate your support for Social Security all these years. Chairman JOHNSON. You have been working with us, and we have been working with you for the whole time I have been in the Congress, and I haven't seen much improvement. It wasn't that long ago that Social Security was facing a different disability backlog, and telling our Subcommittee how that backlog was going to be tackled. Yet, less than 10 years later, here we are again with another disability backlog, and I don't know that your new plan is going to stop that cycle. How can you assure us that in 10 years, we are not still talking about another disability backlog? Ms. DISMAN. Well, my hope, Mr. Chairman, is that being strategic and looking at all aspects of the backlog will enable us to minimize the cycle. Now, we can't help what happens externally, whether there is another recession and more filings, or whether you have the issue--for example, there was a period of time where we couldn't hire administrative law judges because of the Office of Personnel Management, and thankfully, Congress helped us correct that situation. But if we don't have a plan that is strategic and deals with the core of our problems, just giving us the budget won't stem the cycle that you have just referenced. For example, when I looked at the actuary projections of receipts for disability, they are going down now. Well, that is good news for us because that allows us to work on the backlog. By the way, the cases are averaging over 600 days, because we are working on the most aged cases now, and that means the processing time goes up. But having said that, and working on the cycle that we are doing, we need to make sure we have fixes that prevent or minimize these swings in the workloads. And that is where we are all working very hard together. Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Larson, you are recognized. Mr. LARSON. Well, I share the Chairman's concern, and 600 days is just flat out unacceptable. And we are the United States of America, these are our fellow citizens, this is a program that they have paid for. So I have heard a lot of discussion today, so what I am going to ask everybody is, you know--we cite the figure that there has been a 13 percent increase of baby boomers coming through the thing, but a 10 percent decrease. If you have a 10 percent increase, could you turn this around? And what would that timeframe then be? Ms. DISMAN. I would have to look at the particular statistics. Mr. LARSON. Okay. That is not an answer. Ms. DISMAN. But I want to give you an answer: Let me just say, for every $100 million that is given in our budget--first of all, we want the President's budget because the President's budget commits a plan for us to balance the workload. But for every extra $100 million, I will give you two examples: We can do another 100,000 of disability applications, or another 50,000 of hearing decisions. So I will take your question back---- Mr. LARSON. Why does that take so long, Ms. Larin? You have said there is a number of recommendations that don't seem to be followed. What would you say in this case? Would the additional money help or not help? Ms. LARIN. I think where GAO's work--what GAO's work speaks to is, is SSA using the resources that they currently have as efficiently and effectively as they can? Mr. LARSON. Are they? Ms. LARIN. We found several instances where we don't believe that they are. Where they could be more effective and more efficient. Mr. LARSON. So in a case where they are not, what is--what can the government then do? What does GAO then recommend? Ms. LARIN. Well, we have several recommendations on how they can better use the information that they have, the administrative data that they are collecting, to inform how they can make quicker decisions, more accurate decisions, and more consistent decisions. Mr. LARSON. Will that result in a savings of money and time and effort? Ms. LARIN. Well, it certainly would save in the time and effort if they were more efficient and more effective in making their decision. Mr. LARSON. Ms. McLaren, what would you say about additional resources, you very definitely indicated that in your remarks? Ms. MCLAREN. Certainly. You know, the DDSs are always in need of more resources as well. You know, the work we do in the DDSs is similar to what they face in the ALJ courts. The disability examiners are stretched thin because we have a hiring issue as well there. If we had more adequate resources to take the time that is necessary to perform the reviews, there might be an impact. And we also, back to the statements that---- Mr. LARSON. That is a very troubling thing. We say, and my colleagues over here will say, look, more money isn't the answer. We just say to you, look, we recognize that you are down, if we give you more money and--you can't give us an answer. And so it is very disturbing to people that want to help and see the citizens get help. We hear Ms. Ekman talking about--putting a real face on this, and then we go round and round and round without the ability seemingly to help. Judge, you---- Judge ZAHM. Give me a clerk and two attorneys. Give my judges a clerk and two attorneys and we can go to town. We will be able to turn out a lot more decisions. And---- Mr. LARSON. What does that mean, ``a lot more decisions''? We have a 600, you know, this backlog. What does that exactly mean? Judge ZAHM. I would say that judges, if given proper staffing, could probably add another 50 to 100 hearings per judge, and we have 1600 judges, per year, if you gave us staffing, and if you change the procedures that are roadblocks. Mr. LARSON. If we change the procedures, what is the number? Do you reduce it or do we just add more judges, more staff, more---- Judge ZAHM. No, no, no. We definitely can reduce the backlog. Mr. LARSON. To what? Judge ZAHM. Give me a minute and let me figure it out. Mr. LARSON. Ms. Ekman, explain again what people are actually going through and how incompetent, in the face of that, we all seem. Ms. EKMAN. Thank you, Mr. Larson. People are losing their homes, they are dying, and they are becoming bankrupt while they wait for a decision. I think, Mr. Larson, when you chronically underfund an agency, you can't expect a small increase in funding in the short term to fix those problems. You need adequate funding sustained over a long period in order for SSA to get itself out of the hole that Congress has dug for them by giving them inadequate resources. You can't fix your problems by shifting money from one place to another without expecting all of the service that SSA provides to America to suffer. And, unfortunately, it is going to take a number of years even if you were to give significantly increased funding for SSA to be able to dig itself out of the hole they have been put in by inadequate funding over the last 7 years. Mr. LARSON. Well, it sounds like they could also make some changes that are being recommended by the GAO as well. I would be interested in finding out why it is that GAO can't get together with your group and come up with a comprehensive solution to this, that Congress can get its hands around, instead of these endless tastes-great/less-filling debates that we seem to have and nothing gets done. Chairman JOHNSON. I appreciate your questions. I appreciate your questions, and I totally agree with what the Ranking Member said. I hope you all are listening to his questions. And some of the answers that we are getting are, you know, nebulous, fruitless, something. Mr. Rice, you are recognized. Mr. RICE. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am looking at this chart of disability by wait times. It starts in 1986 and goes to 2016, 30 years, and the trend doesn't look very favorable. It is apparent that it is not a new problem. This is something that has been evolving over 30 years. But I also see that there are peaks and then there are valleys. And what I want to know is, what is the trend? Is this getting better or is it worse? Ms. Disman. Ms. DISMAN. The trend is getting better. Over the last 7 months, we have reduced the pending. We are working on the aged cases. We have a number of initiatives that we started, but unfortunately, because of the decision writing backlog we had to stop. But with the hiring that we are going to do, there is some incredibly promising initiatives. We have to deal with---- Mr. RICE. Okay. Thank you. I want to ask, what is the trend, in your opinion, Ms. Larin? Ms. LARIN. Federal disability programs have been on GAO's high risk list for many, many years. And---- Mr. RICE. Is the trend favorable today or not? Ms. LARIN. We have not---- Mr. RICE. Is it going to get worse or get better? Ms. LARIN. Well, we haven't seen much of an improvement. Mr. RICE. Okay. Ms. McLaren. Ms. MCLAREN. Initial disability applications are down, so are the appeals at the reconsideration level. So from a DDS perspective, we would see decreasing numbers in the front---- Mr. RICE. So you think the trend is good and we are going to start to see decreasing numbers? Ms. MCLAREN. Some of those issues I couldn't speak to, those are SSA's issues. Mr. RICE. Thank you. Ms. Zahm--Judge Zahm. Judge ZAHM. The trend is down because applications are down. Mr. RICE. So you see it getting better, Ms. Ekman? Ms. EKMAN. Thank you, Congressman. We have not seen an improvement yet. I think--and the---- Mr. RICE. What would be your opinion? Do you see one on the horizon or not? Ms. EKMAN. We see promising initiatives. It is going to take some time for them to---- Mr. RICE. Thank you. I want to know about the trend in claims. I know we had a huge upswing in claims as people talk about the baby boomers aging and the recession, which force people to look for alternative sources of income. You say that the claims are down 600,000 in the last year. Is that right? Ms. DISMAN. What we were talking about--I can give you a figure of what they are down. The actuary shows they are down by about 100,000 from the prior year and 100,000 before that. Mr. RICE. What are the total numbers of claims per year? Someone said 4 million. Is that right? Ms. DISMAN. Well, the total number of claims per year that we are dealing with, I need to get back to you on that figure. Mr. RICE. Roughly. Judge Zahm, do you know the total number of claims per year? Judge ZAHM. No. Mr. RICE. Okay. Do you know, Ms. McLaren? Ms. MCLAREN. Yes, it is 4.7 million, but that includes all initial recon and CDR claims---- Mr. RICE. So we have a 100,000 drop out of 4 million? Ms. MCLAREN. Right. Mr. RICE. All right. What percentage of claims--you know, the whole reason we have to have hearings is to make sure people are eligible. Right? If we knew--if they came into the office and said, I am disabled, and we could just believe that they met all the qualifications, we wouldn't have to have the hearings, right? What percentage of hearing applicants, Judge Zahm, are approved versus rejected? Do you know that? Judge ZAHM. At the hearings level it is approximately 45 percent of applicants are approved. Mr. RICE. And ultimately, on appeals and on through, do you know the answer to that? Judge ZAHM. No, probably not a whole heck of a lot different. Mr. RICE. Ms. Ekman. Ms. EKMAN. Overall, after all levels of appeal, it is about 4 in 10 that get approved. Initial claims, there is about 1 in 3 that are approved. So 2 out of 3 are denied at the initial level. Mr. RICE. Wait a minute. She said 45 percent and you are saying 1 in 3. Ms. EKMAN. Well, at the initial level. And it is 45 percent at the hearings level. And so once you go through all the levels of appeal, you have to remember, too, a lot of people drop out, so the number of initial claims, only a percentage of those go forward to request hearings. Mr. RICE. The CAL program--I will go to you, Ms. Disman. I know it is expedited, so how much quicker is it than the regular program? How many more--what is the difference in wait times? Ms. DISMAN. It is substantial. If you take a look at the CAL conditions. Mr. RICE. Is it 200 days? Ms. DISMAN. The average is about 39 days for a CAL condition. Mr. RICE. Wow. Ms. DISMAN. As opposed to the average processing time for initial applications which is somewhere between 110 to 114 days. Mr. RICE. Wow. What percentage of people get approved in the CAL program? Ms. DISMAN. Around 3 percent. Mr. RICE. Three? So 97 percent are in the other? Ms. DISMAN. Right. That is correct. Mr. RICE. Okay. And then, finally, is there any mechanism even quicker than CAL? I mean, when you--when they meet with somebody, and there is no question they are clearly disabled, is there anybody that just gets an instantaneous approval? Ms. DISMAN. Well, there is not instantaneous, but there are two other processes. One is TERI cases, where an individual has a disability which is likely to end in death and very seriously indicated as a TERI. The other is quick disability decisions. These were all implemented in the beginning of the rise of disability pendings over the years. So if it is not a CAL, it can be picked up as a quick decision case, it can be picked up as a TERI. They all work with each other. Mr. RICE. Thank you, ma'am. Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you for your questions. Mr. Pascrell, you are recognized. Mr. PASCRELL. Mr. Chairman, thank you. And I am interested in all the questions from all of our comrades here. Excellent. Maybe we should do this with Social Security, same approach, questions and answers. I have a question for you, Ms. Disman, and thank you for all your service. I mean that sincerely. We know that many initial SSDI applications are denied. Ms. Disman, let me ask you this, can you explain to me why that is? And is there anything we can do to try to reduce the inappropriate denials? Ms. DISMAN. Well, thank you, first of all. And I just want to reminisce about you and I appearing together in New Jersey on radio when I was regional---- Mr. PASCRELL. We have the worst record in New Jersey. Did you know that? Ms. DISMAN. I won't even talk about that. Those were my years as Regional Commissioner. Mr. PASCRELL. I don't mean any inference to you. But I am saying New Jersey is way behind everybody else, it looks like, even though no State really stands out as getting a gold star. But go ahead, I am interrupting you. Ms. DISMAN. But in any event, if you look at the initial disability application--I used to head the quality function of Social Security where we actually looked at these initial disability applications. They are, if you look at their accuracy, their net accuracy is at 97 percent. Their decisional accuracy is at about 95 percent. What happens between the time of the initial denial? Time passes. The condition worsens. There is also new medical evidence that is introduced that wasn't introduced at the beginning. So where the DDSs on average have about a 35 percent allowance rate, you will see as it goes through its various stages, for example at the reconsideration stage when new evidence is submitted and the condition may change a little, another 12 percent get approved. And then you had, as Judge Zahm mentioned, you know, at the hearing level about 45 percent. So it doesn't mean that the DDS's initial decision was incorrect, because they do look at 50 percent of the allowances, and there is a sample of denials as well, to see what is the quality of the decision. Mr. PASCRELL. Now, let's compare that to other agencies in other departments when we see problems of responding to our taxpayers and constituents and our family. I have seen the tendency in some of those other departments and agencies that remain nameless right now, if they are cutting my budget so I cannot spend X amount of dollars on page 38 of the budget you refer to--I didn't refer to it, you referred to it--there is a $64 billion cut in Social Security disability funds over the next 10 years. Now, if I am the bureaucrat and the administrator, call us whatever you wish, making decisions about, well, if I have less benefit money to provide, I need to find a way to get rid of a lot of these applicants, because there may be less applicants this year, but there is a steady pace of increasing if you look back at it over the next--the last 15 years. And by the way, if we continue with the last 6 months, we will have the same amount as last year. I will tell you the numbers, and you know the numbers better than I do. So I am saying, is there anything like that happening within the disability network of denying early on, let them appeal down the road? Ms. DISMAN. I would say absolutely---- Mr. PASCRELL. Is that familiar to you, Ms. Disman? Ms. DISMAN. I would say absolutely not. I will tell you that our employees--and I do want to talk about what is in the budget, but absolutely not. Mr. PASCRELL. Yeah. Ms. DISMAN. Our employees believe in the mission. That is to get the right decision to the right person on time. I was trained that way when I came in over 50 years ago. Mr. PASCRELL. So we have less money over the next 10 years, according to the President's budget, which you talked about. We will find a way, if those people are eligible, to get them the assistance that they need? Ms. DISMAN. Absolutely. Mr. PASCRELL. Okay. Let me continue, please. So there are no easy fixes. We know that. Making a proper SSDI eligibility determination is extremely complex. I feel like I am starting to sound like a broken record, though, lately, because I keep coming back to the same point that virtually all of the Social Security Subcommittee hearings we have had since I joined the Subcommittee, but many of the problems that this Subcommittee has been examining with the Social Security Administration are firmly rooted, I will contend, in the lack of resources the agency has been given. Look, we don't want anybody to get Social Security disability that doesn't deserve it. You have changed the rules. And some of them I think are excellent so that we don't have to face that issue later on. So we are going to find a way to find the rules to have less people who are eligible because you have less funds to provide. I mean, the numbers are the numbers. I didn't make them up. And I don't think you made them up, Ms. Disman. I know your background. So you can defend it all you want, but we are trying to get to some kind of agreement here so that we can move forward. And not everything is in, you know, stark white and black. We know that. And there is no easy answers. None. This is complex stuff. But I am looking at the history. I am looking at what is going to happen by the end of this year. And I don't see any improvement whatsoever, to go back to the gentleman's question before. So, you know, no wonder why some of us are a little puzzled. I mean, I am always a little puzzled, but this is something that we need to take a much more serious look at, and I thank the Chairman for putting us together today. Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you, sir. The gentleman's time has expired. Mr. Renacci, you are recognized. Mr. RENACCI. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I also want to thank Ranking Member Larson for both of you putting this together, and I want to thank the witnesses. And this won't be a pile-on, although it does seem like it is. And I am going to go back to what my friend Mr. Larson said, because it is always easy to talk about money. And he said over here we are going to talk about money, and you are right because I was in business. And in my 30 years in business, when we were having troubles, people would walk up and say, well, we just need more money. And it is always easy to say, yup, we just need more money, and just give me more money, and if you keep giving me more money--the problem is here we don't have any more money. In Washington, every day we are borrowing from China. We have enough issues already, and we just don't have the money, so we have to be more efficient. And that is what we used to do in the business world. That is what families are asked to do. We have to become more efficient. So I want to talk about efficiency more than money. And we have to figure out how do we become more efficient, because there is just no more money. We can talk about it all day, but the American people are tired of talking about money when we have a $20 trillion deficit, and it continues to grow. So I want to talk about one example, because the trend line--I do like my friend's example of the trend. The trend is not good. I put the black line as the trend line. We can go up and down and up and down, but the trend is continually going up, so that is an issue. What is troubling is that a constituent of mine--and I will just use one example. We have a constituent, John, from Parma, Ohio, who applied for disability in February of 2015, and who my office is still working on to get him a final decision. For John, this has really been a frustrating process for him and his family. This is simply unacceptable. Unfortunately, I have many other constituents who are facing the same circumstances. That is February of 2015. So what we did was we went out and we started to talk to some of the judges in our area to try to figure out what was going on. And our Social Security--when we talked to our judges, and my staff talked to them in northeast Ohio, they have told us that the rules--and I want to go back. Social Security recently finalized regulations that generally require all evidence to be submitted to the ALJ no later than 5 days before a hearing. The judges are stating, they told us that the rule fails to fully address the issue of ensuring that they as judges have all the information they need prior to the hearing. So that is important in a timeline. That is important in a decision. And I think it is important that we look at at least that. So, basically, the rule is not working. But I want to ask Judge Zahm, what are your thoughts on that? The judges are saying they need the information. Judge ZAHM. Yes. The judges who spoke with you and your staff are 100 percent correct. This is the situation. Judges are most efficient when we have evidence submitted to us before the hearing so that the judge and the medical experts can review that evidence and be prepared for the questioning of the claimant at the hearing and for the questioning of the experts. Then when the testimony is over, we can make a decision right away right there. It is fast. It is efficient. But what has happened is that the agency had a 10-year pilot program in New England that required evidence to be submitted 5 days in advance. By all accounts it worked well, so the agency decided to extend it nationwide. So far so good. Then the rule was drafted, and the rule didn't require just the submission of evidence, it also said, and if you don't have the evidence you can just tell us what evidence is missing and your attempts to get it. So now, 5 days before the hearing I still don't have the evidence. What is worse is they have told me what evidence I don't have and it is too late to get it. So the intent of the rule was undermined by poorly being drafted. We need a rule that says 5 days before the hearing get your evidence in. People get 75 days' notice before the hearing, so they have plenty of time. And if they can't get it, because sometimes providers are recalcitrant, let me know. I will subpoena it. I need the evidence the day of the hearing so I can be efficient. Mr. RENACCI. I appreciate that. And again, that doesn't take more money, that just takes more efficiency. Judge ZAHM. Exactly. Mr. RENACCI. Ms. Disman, do you want to---- Ms. DISMAN. Yes. And certainly, we--the national uniformity rule was intended to do as you articulated. It was taking 73 days on average for the scheduling of a hearing, so this was giving 75 days for the reps to present the evidence. Unfortunately, we have had a few reps informing us before 5 days. These sources are medical. So what we are in the midst of doing now is using a clarifying ruling to deal with those situations. We will also have our new Office of Quality and Review and Oversight do a study of these cases. The rule went into effect the beginning of May. We wanted to do some data analysis to see where it is. At the same time, the ruling that we will have will lay out factors of what does it mean when you are coming in front of us, what do you need to provide? The one thing we don't want to do is prevent due process on behalf of our claimants. We want to make sure they are afforded the best while we are more efficient in what we do. Mr. RENACCI. Well, I thank you. And I know I have run out of time, but again, this isn't more money, this is just a procedure and time and getting things done and getting things to the judges. I yield back. Chairman JOHNSON. Mr. Kelly, you are recognized. Mr. KELLY. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you all for being here. As we listen to this, and again, it does come down, as Mr. Renacci was talking about, to the amount of money we have to work with and then the size of the Social Security Administration. So when we talk about not having enough people, and hearing you talk, Judge, what I don't understand is how did we figure out that we needed to hire more judges but didn't figure out that they needed to have support staff? How do those decisions come about? Now, as a person who has always been in the private sector, it is hard for me to understand that money is the answer to this. As Mr. Renacci just said, it is efficiency that really drives us most of the time because we just don't have, in the private sector, large sums of money to work with. So I was really--I was puzzled. So we said, yeah, we need more judges, but nobody thinks that they need more support staff. That is almost incomprehensible, but that is the issue that you talked about. Judge ZAHM. Yes. And to the extent that you give me no support staff, I cannot be efficient. Mr. KELLY. Okay. And so I have to tell you what we face as Members of Congress in our offices. We have people coming to us with this problem. It is a very difficult system to navigate. Let me just read something to you, because we are talking about efficiency and effectiveness, and we are talking about making sure that we don't have unapplied time, because that is what drives everybody's model off the charts. In looking over disability insurance statistics for my congressional district in western Pennsylvania, I noticed that the average processing time is much higher than the national average. In our Pittsburgh office, my understanding is the average processing time is 698 days. The national average is 599 days. Both are lengthy, but it takes almost 2 years for a claim to be processed with almost 8,200 cases pending in Pittsburgh alone. This is an incredible mountain we have to climb. That is thousands of western Pennsylvanians with their lives on hold for almost 2 years while their claim is being processed. Now, a constituent brought this up to me. Meanwhile, I just read a report by the Social Security Commissioner's Office that last year, 2016, the agency spent over $16 million on union representational activities. In fact, 16 employees spent 100 percent of their time solely on union activities. In addition to these 16 employees, almost another 1,500 used official time on a part-time basis for a total of 255,000 official hours spent on union activities. I have an extremely hard time explaining to my constituents that call our office seeking help with their disability claims that taxpayer dollars are being spent to the tune of $16 million on union activities while they are waiting for a decision from a Federal agency. Of course, this is not just an issue at the Social Security Administration. In 2014, government employees spent nearly 3\1/ 2\ million hours conducting union business, costing taxpayers, hardworking American taxpayers, $162.5 million. That is not my number, that is OPM. So when we are saying we don't have enough people and they don't have enough time, how do we find 255,000 hours to spend on union activity when we have people waiting to hear their claim being processed? Now, I know people say, well, you don't want to go down that road. I do want to go down that road because do you know who picks up the tab on this? Hardworking American taxpayers. They are asking us, how can you look the other way when this is going on, when we have people waiting over 2 years for a claim to be processed? This is not your problem. This is the problem with government. Now, Ms. Disman, what is the average time it takes a Federal employee to process a disability claim nationally, just a ballpark average? Ms. DISMAN. Well, I was going to give you an example of a decision writer. Mr. KELLY. Just give me a ballpark, how much time does it take? Ms. DISMAN. So one decision writer can write in a year 220 decisions. Mr. KELLY. They can write 220 decisions. Okay. Ms. DISMAN. So if you multiply that by the work years that you are talking about, you will have a sense of what can be done in writing decisions. Mr. KELLY. Okay. Let me ask you then, if these 16 employees that spend 100 percent of their time dedicated to union activities could instead have been working on processing disability claims, do you think that would have helped reduce the backlog? Ms. DISMAN. That would have contributed to more decisions being written. Mr. KELLY. Okay. And if the 255,000 official hours spent on union activities funded by American taxpayers, by the way, were spent on processing disability claims, do you think this would further help reduce the backlog? Ms. DISMAN. Well, I think you have to look at the whole program. Mr. KELLY. No, I just want an answer. Would it reduce the backlog? I don't want to hear about things in totality, because that is how we always get lost in this government. We get so lost in the fact that we forget that every single penny came out of the pocket of a hardworking American taxpayer. I know how Social Security works because I am from the private sector, and I know it is all based on wage taxes. But when I look at this and I keep hearing all we need is more money, all we need is more people, and then I say to these people, ``Well, what is everybody doing now?'' I don't know, Judge, how you could look at more judges coming onboard but nobody being hired to the support staff. Maybe asking some of those other folks that spent 255,000 hours, do you want to really help out with claims and backlogs? Maybe that would be the answer. Now, I get spun up about this because we keep chasing a rabbit we can't catch. And we keep talking about we need more money, we need more people, and I keep seeing the backlog keeps rising. And all we say to those people back home is just stay tuned, we are going to get to you eventually. So I know my time is up. Mr. Chairman, I thank you. I yield back. Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you. Thank you for your questioning. And, Ms. Sanchez, you are recognized. Ms. SANCHEZ. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, time and time we hold hearings criticizing the Social Security Administration for backlogs, technology issues, or fraud, and as Members of Congress we never end up doing anything about it. And there tends to be one common thing among all the concerns that we keep raising, and I think the line of question- ing that just went down is sort of a red herring, but it all boils down basically to lack of funding. And I know people don't want to spend funding, but the Social Security Administration has been flat funded since 2011. Okay? In 6 years, you cannot buy the same amount of paper that you could 6 years earlier with the same amount of money. There is this thing called inflation that contributes to the cost of doing business. In addition, we have an aging baby boomer population and an increased demand on limited resources. And I am just going to take a guess, and you all can correct me if I am wrong, but I am guessing that probably disability claims have been on the rise over the course of the 30-year history. I doubt that the number of claims has stayed flat. So we can't expect Social Security, or any other Federal Government agency for that matter, to do more with less and less. As the increase in demand goes up, you need an increase in resources to deal with the issue. And there is no substitute for resources. No amount of congressional hearings and waving our arms and screaming into a microphone is going to make up for the fact that you guys are not receiving the funding that you should receive, that it is not keeping pace with the demand. So here we are again one more time talking about the disability backlog, reprimanding Social Security, but not considering actual ways to fix it. And there is no doubt the backlog is unacceptable. Six hundred days is too long for people in need to wait for a decision. And as Ms. McLaren testified, the longer people wait, the greater the hardships that they face. So it is imperative that Social Security has the number of ALJs it needs, the attorneys and support staff to process those reviews in a timely manner. Social Security is meant to be there when beneficiaries need it the most. Now, I happen to have worked for a Federal district court judge, and I know what a lack of resources can mean for getting through case work. You know, we all want the Social Security Administration magically to be able to process these claims in a very quick turnaround, but heaven forbid, we don't want you guys to make a mistake. We want the decisions to be correct ones. Well, correct decisions mean that you need all of the information, and it takes time to get that information sometimes from the recipients themselves, from the petitioners themselves. You know, we all want everything to work perfectly, and we live in an imperfect world. And certainly, if we don't allocate the resources needed, we are not going to see any trend reversal. So I want to go to Ms. Zahm, because you were kind of interrupted by Mr. Larson. You were trying to do a back of the envelope calculation about how many cases could be taken out of that backlog if you had just one ALJ hired, one law clerk, and an attorney to help them. Can you give me a back of the envelope calculation? Judge ZAHM. Yes. But let me just correct: one clerical employee, two attorneys. Ms. SANCHEZ. My apologies. Judge ZAHM. Because then if somebody implements it, and I don't get the other attorney---- Ms. SANCHEZ. Roughly how many cases? Judge ZAHM. I think between 150- and 200,000 extra decisions a year. Now, we already put out 700,000 decisions a year. That will make a dent in the backlog. Ms. SANCHEZ. Yeah. Nobody talks about what you are getting right, you know? Judge ZAHM. Yes. Ms. SANCHEZ. Everybody wants to focus on everything that is falling apart. Well, I happen to be a believer in government. I believe that government can do things competently, if they are given the right people for the right job and the right resources. Ms. Disman, how big of an impact has level funding had on Social Security Administration's ability to process claims? Ms. DISMAN. Well, I think if you look at what we have achieved, Social Security has managed to identify priorities and to establish the processing of claims for our constituents, and also has used technology to enhance services and to provide different ways of providing the same service. Ms. SANCHEZ. But the question was how has level funding impacted the ability to write more decisions in a year? Has it positively impacted that or has it negatively impacted that? Ms. DISMAN. Well, I think we can certainly say that with more funds we can do more. Ms. SANCHEZ. Excellent. And how much funding would SSA need to bring the wait time down to the goal of 270 days, do you have an idea? Ms. DISMAN. Well, I would actually like to come back with that for the record, because it makes a number of assumptions. I think you heard from our DDS community about the reintroduction of the reconsideration process. If we introduce that process, it means less cases will go to the administrative law judge. So let me send that back to you with a number of assumptions behind it. Ms. SANCHEZ. I appreciate that. And do you think that with demand growing, you can keep level funding SSA and expect that somehow we are going to reverse the trend of this backlog? Ms. DISMAN. I think that we have enough in the President's budget to be able to start the downward trend. It is taking longer than---- Ms. SANCHEZ. But could you get it to the recommended 270 days if you stay at a flat level funded? And that is not to say that there is no cuts, because we have even heard about cuts potentially. Ms. DISMAN. Well, if the President's budget and the budget that we are going to be submitting to Congress for 2019 all assume that we will continue to get a specific funding level to allow us to reduce the backlog. Ms. SANCHEZ. But would you get the---- Chairman JOHNSON. The time of the lady has expired. Ms. SANCHEZ. Excuse me, but my last colleague was granted additional time, and I have one last question I would like to submit for the record and allow the witnesses to respond to in writing, not verbally. Chairman JOHNSON. Sure. Ms. SANCHEZ. My question is, with level funding, you said that you can start the downward trend in the backlog. How many years would it take you to catch up the backlog and get it down to the recommended 270 days? And I will allow you to submit that answer in writing. And I thank the Chairman, and I yield back. Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you. Mr. Smith, you are recognized. Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for having this hearing. Ms. Disman, could you tell me how many administrative law judges there were in 2011? Ms. DISMAN. If my memory serves me correct, and I will change that for the record if it was wrong, there were about 1,100. Mr. SMITH. Okay. And currently there is how many? Ms. DISMAN. Over 1,600. Mr. SMITH. So the lowest backlog we had was in 2011 in recent history. And it showed that it was like 350, around there somewhere, and now we are at 600. In fact, in Missouri, we are at 672, which is worse than the national average. Why have we almost doubled when we have almost doubled how many administrative law judges we have, according to those numbers? Ms. DISMAN. Well, I think if you look at the issues, it is the composition of staff that we were able to hire over the years. It is the length of time it takes to hire staff. It takes time to train staff and have them be proficient. And the backlog was the increase in receipts that came in at the initial disability level and made its way through the ALJ level. So this didn't happen overnight. If you look at a curve you will see each year it being incremental, and then we had problems over the years on actually hiring judges. Mr. SMITH. I am just really confused. If in 2011 we had 11- or 1,200 people, whatever that is, administrative law judges, and today we have 1,600, that is a sizeable increase. And I mean, does it take 5 years to train people so that they can go through the cases, or I just don't--I can't get--I can't comprehend that. Ms. DISMAN. We had a period of time where we couldn't hire administrative judges, so if you look at it, about 245 were hired last year with another 130 this year. And we lose about 100 ALJs a year. Mr. SMITH. So you hired about 350 new ones in the last year and a half. Okay. That is helpful. That is the kind of stuff you need to tell me. Mrs. Zahm, in your testimony, you made the comment that there has been more than 1,000 new regulations. What were those regulations implemented from? Was it legislation or just that the Social Security Administration decided to come up with something different? Judge ZAHM. It was the latter. The agency made changes to the Hearings and Appeals Manual that we use to adjudicate cases. Approximately 1,000 since 2011. They have complicated and made more time consuming our jobs, but also in that same period of time, since 2011, the size of our files have increased 55 percent, and that doesn't even count the increase from fiscal year 2017. So we have files increasing, numbers of applications going up since 2011 and---- Mr. SMITH. How much? What percent have they gone up since 2011? Do you have that number? Judge ZAHM. That Ms. Disman would know. Mr. SMITH. Okay. I will get to her again. You said that out of those thousand rules, there is several that are not necessary. Could you give me a couple examples of not necessary rules that are costing the judiciary time? Judge ZAHM. Yes. Okay. For instance, when a claimant tells us that they have new medical evidence, they send in documents saying Dr. Jones, Dr. Smith, whatever, I have been to the hospital, the clerk has to contact the claimant and say you need to get these documents. They have to wait 30 days. The documents won't come in. If it is an unrepresented claimant, they are not coming in. They have to recontact the claimant and say why aren't they submitted and then hear a story. They then have to go and say to the judge, what do you want us to do? And, of course, the judge will always say, I want you to get those documents. With unrepresented people, why are we doing this? They are not going to get the documents. If they get them, they won't be complete. The clerk should simply, once they are notified that there is another medical provider, send for the documents. That would be less time consuming than this dance between us, the claimant, the judge, whatever. It takes time, it takes staff time, and at the end of the day, we are going to ask for those documents anyway, so why don't we just do it to begin with? Mr. SMITH. Okay. Good point. You said that last year 750,000 claims were processed? Judge ZAHM. About 700,000 claims, I believe, where dispositions were issued at the--that might be 690, whatever. About 700,000. Mr. SMITH. And I just wanted to clarify Mrs. Sanchez' question and Mr. Larson's, I think. You said that by one new administrative law judge and the appropriate personnel for their office would create a reduction in backlog by what amount a year? Judge ZAHM. I estimate between 150- and 200,000 extra dispositions if you gave us staff. Mr. SMITH. For each one administrative law judge or---- Judge ZAHM. No. Overall based upon--we already put out about 700,000. I think we could do an extra 150- to 200,000 if I had a clerk and two attorneys. Mr. SMITH. With how many lawyers hired, though? Judge ZAHM. I don't know exactly how many the agency has. Mr. SMITH. Okay. All right. Judge ZAHM. I don't know how many more. Ms. SANCHEZ. If the gentleman would yield. It sounds like you are saying not with additional judges but just getting the staffing for the current judges that exist. Judge ZAHM. Right. Exactly. Mr. SMITH. Oh, under the current administrative law judges to make sure that they are fully staffed? Judge ZAHM. Exactly. Mr. SMITH. Okay. Thank you. Chairman JOHNSON. The time of the gentleman has expired. I ask for unanimous consent to insert in the report Mr. Kelly's reference to the record. Without objection, so ordered. [The submission of The Honorable Sam Johnson follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman JOHNSON. As we have heard today, Social Security has a lot of work to do, and people are waiting too long to get a hearing, and that is simply unacceptable. The good news is that Social Security has a plan, but the bad news is it is going to take, according to them, until 2022 to get it done. Social Security needs to get their wait times under control and the American people deserve no less. I want to thank our witnesses for your testimony and thank you for your patience out there. Thank you also to our Members for being here. Mr. LARSON. Could I have just---- Chairman JOHNSON. Mr. Larson, you are recognized for a comment. Mr. LARSON. Yes. I just also wanted to thank the panelists and the Chairman here. I would like to have Ms. Ekman--because you didn't get the opportunity to follow up on a number of the things that you heard from the only person here who is carrying the perspective of the individuals who are impacted by these excessive wait times. I think there is the desire from everybody here to get after this issue. And, Mr. Chairman, I thank you because we unearthed a lot of things. What would you recommend, Ms. Ekman, that we do to take a number of the positive and constructive things that we have heard and turn it into a plan of action? Ms. EKMAN. Thank you, Ranking Member Larson. I think everyone sitting at this table would agree that the earlier we can get a complete evidentiary record in the application process, the better and quicker decisions we can make. We would recommend that SSA maybe take a little bit longer at the initial decision to more fully develop the record. Many claimants are unrepresented, and as Judge Zahm said, unrepresented claimants can often not be very helpful because they are in dire medical straits often when they are going through their initial application in assisting in that process. Doing more reviews of denials, which less than 3 percent of denials are currently reviewed, to ensure that the decision is correct could assist in that. I think one thing that does not help is creating arbitrary deadlines prior to a hearing for the submission of evidence. We all agree we want the evidence in, and if there are a few bad actors who are not getting the evidence in, Social Security has a lot of tools at their disposal to take care of those particular representatives. What we should not be doing is passing rules that arbitrarily exclude evidence based on a timeline that hits the claimant over the head instead of addressing any bad actions by representatives. So I think what we need to do is figure out how to get the evidence in early in the process and have SSA assist claimants to do that so that we can avoid having to go through further stages of appeal. Mr. LARSON. I want to thank you again. I want to thank all the witnesses and the Chairman. I would just make one final comment about what we were discussing earlier, but we don't believe on either side that money in and of itself is the solution, but we cannot overlook the fact that we have had a large increase of baby boomers coming through this process at this time either. So it is very helpful to find out how we can combine both what we like to think is technology's assistance but also then, with some of the very commonsense recommendations that the judge has made and with some of the recommendations of GAO, that perhaps we are well on our way to do a combination of both, and finding where it is where actual money in the system could best benefit and whether it is additional clerks or it is the streamlining of information, lesser regulations, or actually getting to some of these commonsense recommendations that we could actually make progress instead of just having hearings. But, again, Mr. Chairman, thank you. This is a tremendous hearing. Chairman JOHNSON. Thank you all for being here, and thank you for your testimony. Thanks also to our Members that are here. With that, the Subcommittee stands adjourned. [Whereupon, at 11:38 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] [Questions for the Record follow:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]