[House Hearing, 115 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
OVERSIGHT OF THE ATF NATIONAL CANINE DIVISION
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
JULY 16, 2018
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Serial No. 115-63
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Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
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COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
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BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia, Chairman
F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., JERROLD NADLER, New York
Wisconsin ZOE LOFGREN, California
LAMAR SMITH, Texas SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
DARRELL E. ISSA, California HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
STEVE KING, Iowa Georgia
LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
JIM JORDAN, Ohio LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois
TED POE, Texas KAREN BASS, California
TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania CEDRIC L. RICHMOND, Louisiana
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina HAKEEM S. JEFFRIES, New York
RAUL LABRADOR, Idaho DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas ERIC SWALWELL, California
DOUG COLLINS, Georgia TED LIEU, California
KEN BUCK, Colorado JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland
JOHN RATCLIFFE, Texas PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
MARTHA ROBY, Alabama BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
MATT GAETZ, Florida VALDEZ VENITA ``VAL'' DEMINGS,
MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana Florida
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona
JOHN RUTHERFORD, Florida
KAREN HANDEL, Georgia
KEITH ROTHFUS, Pennsylvania
Shelley Husband, Chief of Staff and General Counsel
Perry Apelbaum, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
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JULY 16, 2018
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
The Honorable Bob Goodlatte, Virginia, Chairman, Committee on the
Judiciary...................................................... 1
WITNESSES
Thomas Brandon, Deputy Director, National Canine Division, Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives
Oral Statement................................................. 3
OVERSIGHT OF THE ATF NATIONAL CANINE DIVISION
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MONDAY, JULY 16, 2018
House of Representatives
Committee on the Judiciary
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:37 p.m., at the
Warren County Government Center, 220 N. Commerce Avenue, Front
Royal, Virginia, Hon. Bob Goodlatte [chairman of the committee]
presiding.
Present: Representative Goodlatte.
Also Present: Representative Comstock.
Staff Present: Jason Cervenak, Senior Counsel; Scott
Johnson, Professional Staff Member; and Joe Graupensperger,
Minority Counsel.
Chairman Goodlatte. Well, thank you, Tony. I know how
important this facility is to Warren County, both from an
economic development standpoint and for the great people who
work there.
So, with that, the Judiciary Committee will come to order.
And we welcome everyone this morning to the committee's
oversight of the ATF National Training Division. And I will
begin by giving an opening statement.
I want to welcome everyone to today's field hearing in
Front Royal, Virginia, located in the beautiful Shenandoah
Valley. I want to thank Congresswoman Comstock for joining me.
And I want to thank the Warren County Government Center for
hosting this very important hearing on oversight of the Bureau
of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives' Canine Training
Center, an integral part of the National Canine Division.
The ATF National Canine Division trains explosives- and
accelerant-detection canines for Federal, State, and local and
international law enforcement and fire investigation agencies.
Since 1990, the ATF has trained over 900 explosives-detection
canines, more than 200 accelerant-detection canines, and has
trained canine teams for 22 international countries. In
addition, the training center has imprinted approximately 3,800
Department of Defense military working dogs from March 2009
through December 2017.
Since 2012, the ATF canine center has been located in the
Sixth District of Virginia, which I have been proud to
represent for the past 26 years, although not all those 26
years here in Warren County in Front Royal. I have had the
opportunity to visit the training center and see firsthand the
amazing capabilities of our four-legged friends. I even hosted
the dogs at an event in the Rayburn House Office Building at
the Capitol in Washington, D.C., to showcase their talents. I
have been proud to represent this world-class training facility
during my tenure as chairman of the Judiciary Committee.
These canines are not just serving the ATF. Many of these
dogs trained by the ATF end up serving with our State and local
law enforcement partners, and, of course, they serve all of us
as citizens. They train alongside their handlers at a facility
a few miles down the road from here that we will have the
opportunity to visit immediately after this hearing.
It is not only our State and local partners that benefit
from the center but our international partners as well. It
truly is a world-renowned program, a program that has been very
productive and successful throughout the years. In fact, in
recent months, ATF-trained canine teams aided in a number of
high-profile investigations, including the Austin bombings and
in the aftermath of the Sante Fe, Texas, school shootings.
It is because of the success of this center that I am
troubled about the desire of some of my colleagues to transfer
the training facility from its home in Front Royal to
Huntsville, Alabama. I realize the cynics may claim that I am
being territorial, but I firmly believe that moving this center
would not only be a colossal waste of taxpayer money but also
put public safety at significant risk.
In 2016, the Senate Appropriations Committee directed ATF
to examine the feasibility of moving the canine training and
kennel facilities from Front Royal to Redstone Arsenal in
Huntsville, Alabama. ATF completed a preliminary feasibility
study in 2016. The study found that building a comparable
canine training and kennel facility at Redstone would cost
millions of taxpayer dollars, require intensive talent
recruitment for the new facility, and result in the loss of key
National Canine Division personnel due to the move. Altogether,
the study concluded that the move would substantially disrupt
continuity of operations and mission readiness.
Thereafter, ATF commissioned an independent environmental
evaluation of the proposed Huntsville site by AECOM Technical
Services, Incorporated. In November 2017, AECOM provided ATF
with an environmental evaluation of the proposed Huntsville
kennel site. The study focused on three categories: surface
soil assessments, noise evaluation, and air dispersion
modeling. After reviewing the findings of the study, the ATF
concluded that, quote, ``our experts strongly recommend that
the facility remain in its current location.''
ATF concluded that the levels of trace explosive
contaminants in the soil posed a significant problem for canine
performance and reliability. Specifically, the ATF stated that
the levels of explosive contaminants in the soil, quote,
``present obstacles that are likely insurmountable to the
initial imprinting of the canines to detect explosives and
accelerants,'' end quote.
ATF elaborated that, quote, ``initial imprinting is
absolutely essential to ATF's well-established and
internationally recognized training regimes.'' And the
contaminants at Redstone Arsenal raise concern that the canine
may begin to associate the environmental explosive contaminants
with the target odor. Put simply, you can't train a bomb-
sniffing dog at a place where everything smells like a bomb.
The study also contained a noise evaluation which focused
on the effect of the nearby active explosive range, finding
that blasting activities at Corkern Range have a clear
potential to affect dogs at the proposed kennel site,
especially if the dogs are outdoors at the time of the blasting
activity. Pointing out that ATF canines are outdoors for
approximately 6 hours of their 8-hour shift, ATF concluded that
keeping the canines indoors during blasting is impractical and,
therefore, the blasting activities could further affect canine
training.
Altogether, after reviewing the study, cost, and other
considerations, the ATF concluded moving the NCD from Front
Royal, Virginia, to Huntsville, Alabama, would significantly
diminish and perhaps irreparably damage the canine program and
its mission to protect the public and fight violent crime.
At this time, I would like to ask unanimous consent to
place the report by the ATF on the proposed move into the
record. And, without objection, it will be made a part of the
record.
Irreparable damage is a cost too high to pay when it comes
to the vital public safety duties these canines perform. This
facility must remain right here in Front Royal. The proposed
move could completely wreck ATF's ability to produce reliable
explosive-detecting dogs.
Thank you, Deputy Director Brandon, for joining us today to
discuss this vital issue, and I look forward to your testimony.
Next, as is the custom of this committee, we will swear in
the witness. So if you would please raise your right hand.
Do you swear that the testimony that you are about to give
shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Let the record note that the witness answered in the
affirmative.
Deputy Director Brandon has served as Deputy Director since
April 1, 2015. In this capacity, he oversees the Bureau and its
important jurisdiction enforcing firearms and explosive laws
and regulations that protect communities from violent criminals
and criminal organizations.
Director Brandon began his ATF career in 1989 as a special
agent in Detroit. Since then, he has served in numerous
leadership positions across the United States and abroad. His
distinguished career in public service not only includes his
tenure with the ATF but also with the United States Marine
Corps.
Thank you for your service.
Your written statement will be entered into the record in
its entirety, and we ask that you summarize your testimony in 5
minutes.
Welcome, Director.
TESTIMONY OF THOMAS BRANDON, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, NATIONAL CANINE
DIVISION, BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES
Mr. Brandon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And, Chairman Goodlatte and Congresswoman Comstock, thank
you for the opportunity to appear before you regarding ATF's
National Canine Division here in Front Royal, Virginia.
As mentioned, ATF has been training dogs here for Federal,
State, local, and international law enforcement and fire
investigation agencies since 1995. The center is located on 250
acres of pristine land on the edge of the Blue Ridge Mountains
near Front Royal in the northern Shenandoah Valley. We share
the Front Royal campus with our partners from the U.S. Customs
and Border Protection, which has allowed us to realize
efficiencies by combining our resources and expertise.
We frequently make reference to the environment here as
pristine, and, undoubtably, it is a beautiful location. But it
is also no coincidence that our facility is located in such a
clean place. This is because, in order to imprint our dogs to
detect minute amounts of ignitable liquids and explosives
materials, it is necessary to train dogs in an environment that
is entirely free of accelerant and explosive residue.
From start to finish, the trainers, handlers, and staff are
meticulous in their handling of these materials in order to
maintain full control of the imprinting process. ATF forensic
chemists and canine experts employ a strict regimen to ensure
canines are trained to detect target odor only and not
secondary scents in the soil or otherwise.
Contamination of any type has a significant impact on the
training, confidence, and reliability of the canine. Trace
contaminants found in the soil become problematic during
training when canines being to associate the environmental
explosives constituents with the target odor. If the
environmental odor and target odor become one, the canine will
no longer detect the target odor when transferred to another
environment, and the canine becomes unreliable.
I cannot overemphasize how important it is to prevent
cross-contamination when imprinting and training our canines.
ATF has trained approximately 1,200 canines for 102 U.S.
law enforcement agencies and 22 international partners at the
Front Royal campus. In 2017 alone, the National Canine Division
in Front Royal trained, recertified, and/or tested
approximately 751 explosive and accelerant actively deployed
detection canines.
In addition, ATF's Front Royal campus is one of the few
facilities with the capacity and expertise to train U.S.
military working dogs to combat the escalating threat of
homemade explosives and improvised explosive devices. Since
2009, we have trained approximately 3,840 military working dogs
for the U.S. military and NATO.
Bombing incidents, such as the tragic events in Austin, are
an excellent example of why the trace odor detection
capabilities of the canines are critical to law enforcement
operations. By their nature, bombing scenes are covered with
debris. Some of the debris is critical evidence, and some is
just the result of the blast. To a human eye, it all appears
all the same, but not to an ATF canine.
The ATF canines deployed in Austin were able to rapidly
differentiate between the two, ensuring the collection of only
those items of evidentiary value and allowing forensic lab
examiners to focus on critical evidence examination and not
waste valuable investigative time on extraneous debris.
Mr. Chairman and Congresswoman Comstock, we are very proud
of our facility here in Front Royal, and it is without
exaggeration that I can say it is one of the best canine
facilities in the world. ATF canine teams provide a critical
resource both in preventing and countering explosives and arson
incidents and investigating such incidents when they occur.
Their capabilities are unmatched.
And I welcome your questions about our canine program on
the Front Royal campus. Thank you.
Chairman Goodlatte. Thank you very much, Director Brandon.
I note that you have a couple of your employees here who I
got introduced to before we came in. I wonder if you might let
their handlers introduce them and tell everyone here a little
bit about them.
Mr. Dawkins. I'm Special Agent Randall Dawkins out of the
Dallas Field Division. This is ATF canine Abel. He just turned
6 in June. And his last big deployment was the Austin bombing,
which the Director just referenced.
Chairman Goodlatte. So he's a hero of the Austin bombings--
Mr. Dawkins. Yes.
Chairman Goodlatte [continuing]. Solving that and catching
that perpetrator.
Mr. Dawkins. He played a critical role, and we're glad to
be able to do so.
Chairman Goodlatte. Thank you.
Mr. Hodnett. Good morning. My name is Mike Hodnett. I am
the canine handler in Baltimore. This is my partner, Tara.
She's my second dog. She just graduated school about 2\1/2\
weeks ago, so she's fairly new out in the field. She's about 2
years old.
Chairman Goodlatte. She's brand-new, and she was trained
here in Front Royal?
Mr. Hodnett. Absolutely, sir. Yes.
Chairman Goodlatte. Very good. Very good.
Director Brandon, how long did it take to get the ATF
canine center here in Front Royal to the point where you are
right now?
Mr. Brandon. Mr. Chairman, Congressman Wolf, at the time,
gave ATF the funds to build about a 21,000-square-foot facility
to where we would do the training and house our personnel. And
then, around 2000, 2001, Congressman Wolf ensured we had the
money to build a state-of-the-art kennel that can house 100
canines.
Chairman Goodlatte. Excellent.
And what are the benefits of having the ATF facility here
in Front Royal?
Mr. Brandon. Well, it's in the national capital region, Mr.
Chairman. There's a lot of synergy that goes on with working
with other agencies. I mean, we have our other Federal partners
that rely on us--the Capitol Police, the Pentagon Police, the
Park Police, intelligence agencies, DOD, the military and their
civilian agencies. And so you're able to collaborate and be in
close proximity.
And the other thing, an international airport, Dulles,
between D.C. and being here, is an excellent resource to be
able to fly in and out, both domestic and international
flights.
And I would be remiss if--all the goodwill that the people
of Front Royal, Warren County, about 120 businesses that have
taken years. They welcome our staff and our trainers to come to
their businesses, parks, facilities. And that enables us to
have such great dogs, when they're out in the field doing the
real work, that I would say the people here of Front Royal and
Warren County, they equally should feel proud. And we're proud
of them, because when they see these dogs deployed, and our
dogs have come to their businesses, and they allowed them in so
graciously, it wouldn't happen if they weren't such loyal
Americans.
Chairman Goodlatte. Well, thank you. I think they are very
proud of this facility. And many of them know a good bit about
it, but probably very few of them know the extent of this
facility's reputation, not just in the United States but around
the world.
You mentioned the Dulles International Airport. That's
important because law enforcement organizations around the
world send people here to Front Royal to learn how to handle a
dog that they are getting this facility to train and to take
and help prevent terrorist attacks, fight crime in places
across the globe.
Can you elaborate on that a little bit?
Mr. Brandon. Yes, Mr. Chairman. And, to your point, yes,
whether countries in the Middle East that we have trained or
Southeast Asia, around the globe, this canine facility here in
Front Royal, ATF's National Canine Division, is world-renowned.
And it is because of the mission of--our dogs are trained
to detect minute amounts of explosives material, and here in
the United States for accelerant-detection canines, for arson
scenes as well. But for internationally it is the explosive-
detection canines. You just don't find that anywhere else. So
they wouldn't waste their time coming--and I know the State
Department sees the results. They hear about it. And, of
course, it creates even more demand for the excellent program
we have here. And Dulles Airport is critical for that.
Chairman Goodlatte. And you mentioned the great
partnerships that you have with the local businesses that help
support this facility and its employees. It takes a while to
establish those kinds of relationships, to find the right
people to provide the right services and products that you need
to make this facility run properly, does it not?
Mr. Brandon. Yes, sir. It's taken decades. And it's the old
trust, you know, that they trust us and we trust them. And
there's, I would say, I guess, just the joint appreciation,
that it's a win-win.
Chairman Goodlatte. And if this facility were moved
somewhere else, it would have to start all over again in terms
of that kind of relationship with important local vendors.
Mr. Brandon. That is true, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Goodlatte. All right.
You also mentioned the co-location with U.S. Customs and
Border Protection, which allows you to share resources and
achieve savings. Can you say a word about that?
Mr. Brandon. Yes, sir.
Like I said, it's 250 acres of pristine, gorgeous property.
And it's gorgeous out here. But we are able to share cost. We
have a contract that we reimburse them for a part of the
security and the maintenance of the roads, but that we own
those two buildings that I said Congressman Wolf got us the
money for. But we're able to be on that land which we don't
own, and CBP maintains and prorates the cost for our use of it.
Chairman Goodlatte. So we didn't invite Customs and Border
Patrol to come today, but they have another facility here as
well. I haven't been in it, but it's just down the road. And
they also train canines there, and they train them for the
purpose of customs enforcement so that, when goods and
sometimes individuals come into the country off of
international flights or at ports, those canines have a role to
fulfill there, too, as well.
Do you know a little bit about that?
Mr. Brandon. Sir, you summarized basically what I know, but
that they have a vibrant program, and they have--and it's my
understanding their facility suits them perfectly.
Chairman Goodlatte. Well, I have some more questions, but I
know Congresswoman Comstock does as well.
So let me just first say that I really appreciate
Congresswoman Comstock, who represents the adjoining area in
the 10th Congressional District, which includes Frederick
County and Winchester just to the north and Clarke County and
then on east in towards Fairfax County. And I know that some of
the people who work at this facility and probably some of the
businesses who support the facility are in her congressional
district.
So I'm very grateful that she came today. She's not a
member of the Judiciary Committee, but she is a very valued
Member of Congress. And I appreciate her being here today to
show her concern about this issue as well.
So I recognize her at this time.
Mrs. Comstock. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. And great to
be with you today.
Since I had worked with Congressman Wolf as a staffer back
in the '90s--I worked with him from '90 to '95, so I was able
to serve this area when he represented this area, and I know
about, you know, his interest and smart things that he did for
this area but also in the national interest.
And, you know, as we looked at this, and you're saying you
have interests who want to move it away, it reminded me of when
I worked for the Congressman at that time. And, actually, we
were in the minority at that time, as Republicans. But a very
powerful Senator, Senator Byrd in West Virginia, wanted to move
the CIA to West Virginia. And that was a project that I worked
on with Congressman Wolf, to keep the CIA in Virginia. It's
actually in my home precinct where I live now. I live right by
the CIA.
So a lot of similarities here, where there have been a lot
of investments made here and very important relationships and
expertise that you have here and, you know, support in the
community. And it really is, sort of, if it ain't broke, why we
would be trying to fix it. You know, this has really been
working well. You have the expertise and the leadership here.
You have the support, as was mentioned, just all of the
adjoining assets that you have, from Dulles Airport--which I'm
certainly very interested in maintaining that and continuing to
be able to support the many needs that we have there. So I
really do appreciate all that you've put together here.
So I did want to ask about, you know, sort of, the
relationships also with the surrounding counties and some of
that, just in terms of how those have built up also.
Mr. Brandon. Yes, ma'am. Thank you for the question.
You know, our relationships for the accelerant-detection
canines and the fire marshals in the surrounding area, in the
capital region, Maryland and West Virginia and Virginia, really
enables our staff to train the canines. Because of the great
relationships, there are numerous scenes that reduce cost
because you're not having to travel all around the country.
And when the dogs are going through training, it's through
those relationships that we've built with surrounding counties
and the surrounding--or the capital region that enables us to
deliver well-trained explosive-detection canines and
accelerant-detection canines.
Mrs. Comstock. And can you speak a little bit about why
this canine program is in such high demand and why we wouldn't
want to have disruption for this and build up, you know, and
having to rework all of this and interrupting this at all.
Mr. Brandon. Thank you, ma'am, for that question.
It is the uniqueness of ATF explosive-detection canines,
and I keep reiterating the minute level of explosives that they
can be found. So they're used for security sweeps, but they're
used--like, in the Austin bombing, when they had the FedEx
facility, which all of a sudden you have all these--one device
that detonated, another one that was not detected yet. Our
dogs--and I'm proud to say, you know, our handler and the dogs
here were able to clear a scene and restore public confidence,
in working with our law enforcement partners from the Austin
P.D. and the FBI and the Texas Rangers, is they realized the
expertise of these dogs. Some dogs are trained to detect gross
explosive weight, you know, and here they're able to go even
smaller. And that's what's unique about our program.
And I guess another story would be, November of 2017, in
New Jersey, there was a car stop. And it was a request, I
believe, of the State police. And our dog hit on the trunk of a
car. And within that trunk were two firearms that would've
never been detected because of such a low level. And you're
talking about a firearm that was just discharged. Those guns
turned out to be murder weapons.
And another incident I can tell you, in 2010, I was on
scene in Detroit. Officer Huff, God rest his soul, was shot and
killed. Three other officers were hit. And I remember calling
our explosive-detection canine to the scene at the request of
then the deputy chief of Detroit that was on scene with me. And
rounds weren't found in the high grass around the area, and our
dog within 2 minutes detected those casings.
And I'm proud to say that we were a participant with
Detroit P.D., and that perpetrator is doing three life
sentences. And we were proud to say that we used our explosive-
detection canine to discover those casings that were used in
the shooting, and also our laboratory in Ammendale, Maryland,
that provided those resources to the P.D.
Mrs. Comstock. And maybe since I am--I haven't been, you
know, on the committee, so I'm a little--well, I guess we know
why they want to move it. But, you know, as we looked at the
CIA and that move, you know, we realized all the disruption it
would have. So could you maybe speak to the kind of disruption
that would happen if it were moved to the entire program as
well as to the expertise that has been really stood up here in
this area and trying to replicate that?
Mr. Brandon. Thank you, ma'am, for the question.
Like the chairman said, I know that we would lose our
people. We have trainers that have decades of experience here.
Again, what we've established over two decades with the
community, you know, and the trust, it's working well. And
then, you know, the subject-matter experts that wrote the
executive summary for me and that's been shared feel that it
would take our program significantly back.
And that's why I gave you stories of real-life examples
of--this isn't a game. This is real life-and-death situations
and catching killers, from the bomber in Austin to the case I
just mentioned in Detroit. And I couldn't sit here in front of
you and lie to you and say, yeah, that there won't be a
disruption.
Things are going well here. I'm very proud of our National
Canine Division and the employees. And I'm also very proud to
read how the community engages us--because that's what I was
told, but it was nice to read in the papers.
So it would set us back, based on what I've been told by my
subject-matter experts.
Mrs. Comstock. No, I think it's pretty clear. And I think
the record does reflect that this would also be a cost to the
taxpayer. So we have something that is working well, and we
don't need to be changing this when we've developed this
expertise.
And having been privileged to work at the Justice
Department, also, after working for Congressman Wolf, I know
you appreciate how, when you build up this expertise and that
kind of trust, that is not something that's easily replicated.
And, you know, so I certainly want to work with the chairman on
making sure that we keep this here.
So I appreciate all you're doing to let the community know
about the importance of this. And I think the fact that
everyone's here today reflects their understanding of the
importance of this, too, to the region.
And I just thank you for all the good work that I know that
you have been doing here for years.
Mr. Brandon. Thank you, ma'am.
Mrs. Comstock. And I yield back.
Chairman Goodlatte. Thank you.
We'll do a second of round. I have a number of additional
questions I want to make sure we get on the record.
You mentioned the Customs and Border Patrol. How does the
center's current location benefit other Federal agencies in the
region?
Mr. Brandon. Well, sir, like I mentioned, we provide
services to the Marshals Service, to the Capitol Police, the
Pentagon Police, military intelligence agencies. So being here
allows for collaborative efforts on any--even research. And so
location matters when you're trying to get various agencies
together to address any public safety concerns.
Chairman Goodlatte. And the ATF recently conducted an
environmental study. Can you briefly share the outcome of that
study?
Mr. Brandon. Yes, sir. The environmental study came out of
the feasibility study where our subject-matter experts
recommended the environmental study. And AECOM did it, so it's
independent of ATF. We didn't want to have any bias in putting
our thumb on the scale.
And so, as you mentioned, the soil analysis. They took
eight samples, and all of them, every one of them, had
contaminants.
Chairman Goodlatte. And this is in Alabama.
Mr. Brandon. Correct, sir.
Chairman Goodlatte. Redstone in Huntsville.
Mr. Brandon. Yes, sir. And we were complying with what we
were ordered, you know, in 2016 to do.
The environmental study was done in September of 2017, and
we got the report November of 2017. And then our subject-matter
experts looked at that, and what the--AECOM, they deferred to
ATF subject-matter experts when it came to soil contaminants.
They said that it wasn't a risk to the health and safety of our
employees or the canines. However, our forensic chemists, who
helped establish this fabulous canine program from such minute
levels, that's where you say you have a target odor and an
environmental odor, and that they said it would be not a good
location, based on the results of an independent environmental
study, for training our dogs.
Chairman Goodlatte. And what is the role of these dogs
after some of the tragic mass shootings that we've had around
the Nation?
Mr. Brandon. Well, like, Mr. Chairman, in the Parkland
shooting, I'm recalling that our dogs were used to help sweep
the school, you know, and detect any IEDs and so forth.
So they're a readily welcomed asset to our State and local
partners because of the unique capability of trace amount of
explosives, minute amount of explosives material. And if you're
smelling a--if the dog is smelling a locker--I will give you a
recent example. I was told one of our dogs, even--there was a
dead body, not in the shooting incident. But what the dog
alerted to, because of its excellent training here in Front
Royal in a pristine environment without contaminants, the
casing was under the dead body, and the dog's training allowed
it to bypass the odor of a decayed body. And when the body was
removed, the casing was under the body.
So I just use that as another story to just sell--or state
why a pristine environment matters. It produces results. And
the environmental study on the soil analysis, their data
defaulted to us to make a determination, us being my subject-
matter experts, a forensic chemist and our long-term canine
trainers, and they said that would have a detrimental effect on
training. It would make the dogs incapable of performing.
Chairman Goodlatte. So a major part of their function is to
be able to distinguish various odors related to gun powder and
explosives from everything else around them. And if you're at a
facility that specializes in blowing things up and testing
explosives and so on, that's going to be everywhere. And if
you're trying to train the dog to look for one shell casing or
one IED or whatever the case may be, that's going to cause
major confusion in the training process before you ever get to
a point where the dog is reliable, like our dog here was down
in Austin, Texas.
Mr. Brandon. Yes, sir. The dogs are trained to recognize
six families of explosives. And, as I mentioned, the
environmental study took eight samples, and in those samples
were two of those six families. And to the point of it would be
an environmental odor versus a target odor, and the dogs
wouldn't be able to differentiate between the two, and it would
make them ineffective.
Chairman Goodlatte. We use the word ``imprinted'' when
we're referring to these dogs. How are ATF dogs imprinted?
Mr. Brandon. Mr. Chairman, before the dogs are even
introduced to their handler, our canine specialists spend 6
weeks imprinting them. And our forensic chemists work that
there is pristine examples of the explosives material to
imprint them. So that is a critical time of processing.
And, again, it's in the report, but the word ``pristine''
is appropriate. In order to properly imprint the dog, you need
a pristine environment. And we have been doing that here for
decades in Front Royal.
Chairman Goodlatte. Are there any savings to the taxpayer
if the ATF canine center is moved to Huntsville?
Mr. Brandon. Sir, the estimated cost for moving would be
$40 million. The estimated cost for staying would be we
wouldn't spend $40 million for moving.
Chairman Goodlatte. That's a--that's a lot of money, even
for the Federal Government.
Mr. Brandon. Yes, sir.
Chairman Goodlatte. If forced to move to Huntsville, can
you guarantee that the canines would have the same reliability?
Mr. Brandon. No, sir.
Chairman Goodlatte. And, in your mind, can you think of any
good reason to move the canine center to Huntsville?
Mr. Brandon. You know, Mr. Chairman, when I came in in
2011, former U.S. attorney and Acting Director, Mike Sullivan,
a Republican, called me to say congratulations, and I asked
him, you know, ``Do you have any advice?'' and he said,
``Listen well and ask good questions.''
So, when this originally came as a proposed moved, I kept
an open mind and, I think, asked good questions. I wasn't
prejudged to say no. But based on the information that has been
presented to me by subject-matter experts at ATF that have been
doing this with a passion for decades and an independent
environmental study, I cannot see a reason.
Chairman Goodlatte. We'll have the opportunity later to ask
them personally, but what do you think your employees would say
when asked if they like being here in Front Royal, Virginia?
Mr. Brandon. Oh, hey, Mr. Chairman, they love being out
here. I would love being out here, you know? I mean, so--I've
never heard a complaint when saying, ``You're going to Front
Royal, Virginia.''
Chairman Goodlatte. Excellent.
And the report I mentioned earlier indicates that there
would be training difficulties associated with a move to
Huntsville. Namely, there are explosive contaminants in the
soil--I think we've covered that already.
What about employees not wanting to move from Virginia to
Huntsville, Alabama? If that were the case, you'd have to hire
and train new employees, would you not?
Mr. Brandon. Yes, sir. And like everywhere you have to
recruit that subject-matter expertise, it's not easy to find.
And so that would be another challenge that was documented by
the subject-matter experts in the report.
Chairman Goodlatte. Do you know of any canine training
facilities anywhere where the canines are imprinted that are
close to Superfund sites with soil contaminated with explosive
materials?
Mr. Brandon. No, sir.
Chairman Goodlatte. It wouldn't work, would it?
Mr. Brandon. That's what was included by the subject-matter
experts. They detailed that, yes, sir, that you're correct.
They said that would be problematic.
Chairman Goodlatte. And I will yield to Mrs. Comstock again
if she has any additional questions or comments.
Mrs. Comstock. Sure. I would be happy to.
You know, I do think, in terms of the move, I think it's--I
imagine you have a fair amount of your employees with their
expertise who are in two-earner families?
Mr. Brandon. Ma'am, I believe so, but I don't have a
specific----
Mrs. Comstock. Yeah. I know that's something, when we were
looking--and I think that's something common in corporate
America now, where it is very difficult to often move families.
And I moved--my dad worked for a company where they moved him
around all the time. My mom was a teacher, and, you know, she
just had to go wherever he was, and she would get a teaching
job. But that's not the modern-day reality anymore. You can't
just tell whoever the expert is to pick up and go. If, you
know, they're married to a surgeon here who's at a hospital,
chances are they're going to want to stay at the hospital. If
they're married to--you know, if they have kids, like I was,
who was a senior in high school, and my dad had to move, you
want to stay. Dad traveled that year, so that was nice.
But I do think that family disruption, I know that's
something we looked at even, you know, from the CIA going from
Virginia to West Virginia, but I think this is very--it would
be very different. And because of the unique expertise here,
that takes years to establish. And because you would lose a lot
of that expertise moving, I do think--I think we've already
established it, so I'm not really asking a question, but I'm
just observing that that modern-day reality of two-earner
families is probably something we should emphasize more to
those who are trying to move. Because I think that makes it--I
see nodding heads out there too.
You know, right? Because that is the reality of families
today. And to try and move and have that disruption, that's a
loss of income for the families. You know, are the houses going
to sell well or not? You know, I don't think the government has
a--you know, my dad's company, if his house didn't sell right,
they gave him a bonus, but I don't think we do that in the
government, do we?
So if you lose money on your house or you're selling your
house at a bad time or something like that, that's not good
either. So I think there's a lot of factors to the families and
the workers involved that would be a loss to them, long term,
and their employment.
I think Congressman Wolf did a very good job here of
finding a unique place to put this, develop that expertise for
years. And to disrupt that at this point really does not--I
haven't heard of any case--well, I know there may be others who
want to make the case, but I can't see where that would make
any sense.
So I appreciate the details you've brought forward. And if
there's maybe more on that front of how it would impact the
families and how it would--I mean, the $40 million cost, it
would cost us 40 million and wouldn't--I mean, that's a
pretty--I can think of a lot of other things that we're looking
to spend $40 million on in the Federal Government, not to
mention the personal cost it would be to the families and the
disruption there.
So I think it is pretty clear here that we need to keep
this expertise here and this great facility here. And I'm happy
to be here today and work with the chairman in any way we can
to do so.
But if you have any comments on any of that----
Mr. Brandon. Ma'am, I totally agree with you. My executive
team and I deal with that all the time, the two--when I grew
up, my dad was a World War II veteran and my mom was a
bookkeeper, and it's different today. We have stories where an
employee's wife is a surgeon, and so it limited his mobility.
And he was saying, ``Hey, my wife is a surgeon, makes a lot
more money than I do.''
And I also know, prior to my coming up, there was a time
where we lost an employee because his wife was a doctor, and he
went to another agency because he said, ``Hey, I'm not going to
leave where I'm at because of my wife's practice'' and so
forth.
So that is today's climate that we operate in, and we try
to be very sensitive to that and try to make win-win situation
for our employees.
Mrs. Comstock. And anywhere where we might be able to
detail that in more detail, I would imagine that may be a cost
that really hasn't been accounted for. So there may be
additional costs on that 40 million. I mean, because the cost
of training somebody when you lose them has to be really bigger
than where--than it's been evaluated at.
Mr. Brandon. I think, ma'am, and the cost came out to,
like, 37 million and change and then another 3 million between
training and everything else that would be involved, up to, you
know, the $40 million.
Mrs. Comstock. Well, thank you.
And I yield back.
Chairman Goodlatte. Thank you.
I have one more question. We've talked a lot about the use
of these dogs to solve crimes. I would say that perhaps an even
greater role for them is public safety, preventing explosive
devices from going off and killing people at different types of
events or locations. And so, when they are called upon to come
to search for explosive devices that may not have been
otherwise detected, they're doing a tremendous service to
public safety.
If they're not properly trained because they're in an
environment where they can't be effectively trained, is it safe
to say that that could heavily impact the public safety of the
people of this country? And to the extent that they're also
trained to work in scores of other countries around the world,
this is a major liability for public safety if we were to
change this. Is that a safe statement?
Mr. Brandon. Yes, Mr. Chairman. And I gave examples of
after the crime's been committed and finding evidence. And, to
your point, we informally refer to it as being on the left side
of boom, which is a priority.
Recently, we had dogs up at the Boston Marathon, and I
think we had five canines there. We always have them at the
Super Bowl and at the request of the Secret Service during the
inauguration and so forth. And they're vital. They're
recognized. Our law enforcement partners wouldn't ask for our
folks to come along with their canines if they weren't seen as
a valuable deterrent towards preventing anything catastrophic
from happening.
Chairman Goodlatte. Thank you very much.
Deputy Director Brandon, is there anything else you'd like
to add before we close?
Mr. Brandon. No, Mr. Chairman and Congresswoman Comstock.
I'd just thank you for giving me the opportunity on the great
men and women of ATF. And I refer to my job as the ATF
cheerleader, but it's legitimate. It's great men and women out
in the street every day risking their lives. I've had a couple
shot within the last few months. And we take our job very
seriously. We're public servants. But our role is to protect
the public and serve the Nation and be no better partner to our
State, Federal, and law enforcement partners. And I thank you
for the opportunity to speak to you today.
Chairman Goodlatte. Well, thank you. And I have known you
for several years. And while you do speak up well for the ATF,
I just want to thank you personally for your own service and
for helping to lead an organization that does do a great deal
to create safety for our public.
Mr. Brandon. Thank you, sir.
Chairman Goodlatte. This concludes today's hearing. Thank
you to our distinguished witness for attending.
And, without objection, all members will have 5 legislative
days to submit additional written questions for the witness or
additional materials for the record.
And, with that--I now have a gavel--this hearing is
adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 10:23 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
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