[House Hearing, 115 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] SIXTY YEARS OF NASA LEADERSHIP IN HUMAN SPACE EXPLORATION: PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON SPACE COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION __________ SEPTEMBER 26, 2018 __________ Serial No. 115-74 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Available via the World Wide Web: http://science.house.gov __________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 32-515 PDF WASHINGTON : 2019 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office, http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center, U.S. Government Publishing Office. Phone 202-512-1800, or 866-512-1800 (toll-free). E-mail, [email protected]. COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY HON. LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas, Chair FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas DANA ROHRABACHER, California ZOE LOFGREN, California MO BROOKS, Alabama DANIEL LIPINSKI, Illinois RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon BILL POSEY, Florida AMI BERA, California THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky ELIZABETH H. ESTY, Connecticut RANDY K. WEBER, Texas MARC A. VEASEY, Texas STEPHEN KNIGHT, California DONALD S. BEYER, JR., Virginia BRIAN BABIN, Texas JACKY ROSEN, Nevada BARBARA COMSTOCK, Virginia CONOR LAMB, Pennsylvania BARRY LOUDERMILK, Georgia JERRY McNERNEY, California RALPH LEE ABRAHAM, Louisiana ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado GARY PALMER, Alabama PAUL TONKO, New York DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida BILL FOSTER, Illinois JIM BANKS, Indiana MARK TAKANO, California ANDY BIGGS, Arizona COLLEEN HANABUSA, Hawaii ROGER W. MARSHALL, Kansas CHARLIE CRIST, Florida NEAL P. DUNN, Florida CLAY HIGGINS, Louisiana RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina DEBBIE LESKO, Arizona ------ Subcommittee on Space HON. BRIAN BABIN, Texas, Chair DANA ROHRABACHER, California AMI BERA, California, Ranking FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma Member MO BROOKS, Alabama ZOE LOFGREN, California RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois DONALD S. BEYER, JR., Virginia BILL POSEY, Florida MARC A. VEASEY, Texas STEPHEN KNIGHT, California DANIEL LIPINSKI, Illinois BARBARA COMSTOCK, Virginia ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado RALPH LEE ABRAHAM, Louisiana CHARLIE CRIST, Florida DANIEL WEBSTER, Florida BILL FOSTER, Illinois ANDY BIGGS, Arizona EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas NEAL P. DUNN, Florida CLAY HIGGINS, Louisiana LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas C O N T E N T S September 26, 2018 Page Witness List..................................................... 2 Hearing Charter.................................................. 3 Opening Statements Statement by Representative Brian Babin, Chairman, Subcommittee on Space, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives....................................... 4 Written Statement............................................ 6 Statement by Representative Ami Bera, Minority Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Space, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives...................... 8 Written Statement............................................ 10 Statement by Representative Eddie Bernice Johnson, Ranking Member, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives............................................. 12 Written Statement............................................ 13 Statement by Representative Lamar Smith, Chairman, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives.. 14 Written Statement............................................ 16 Witnesses: Mr. William Gerstenmaier, Associate Administrator, Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate, NASA Oral Statement............................................... 19 Written Statement............................................ 22 Mr. Mark Geyer, Director, Johnson Space Center, NASA Oral Statement............................................... 31 Written Statement............................................ 34 Ms. Jody Singer, Director, Marshall Space Flight Center, NASA Oral Statement............................................... 35 Written Statement............................................ 37 Mr. Robert Cabana, Director, John F. Kennedy Space Center, NASA Oral Statement............................................... 39 Written Statement............................................ 41 Discussion....................................................... 42 Appendix I: Answers to Post-Hearing Questions Mr. William Gerstenmaier, Associate Administrator, Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate, NASA........... 58 Mr. Mark Geyer, Director, Johnson Space Center, NASA............. 73 Ms. Jody Singer, Director, Marshall Space Flight Center, NASA.... 77 Mr. Robert Cabana, Director, John F. Kennedy Space Center, NASA.. 84 Appendix II: Additional Material for the Record Document submitted by NASA....................................... 92 SIXTY YEARS OF NASA LEADERSHIP IN HUMAN SPACE EXPLORATION: PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE ---------- WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 26, 2018 House of Representatives, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, Washington, D.C. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:11 p.m., in Room 2318 of the Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Brian Babin [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Babin. Good afternoon. The Subcommittee on Space will now come to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare recesses of the Subcommittee at any time. Welcome to today's hearing titled, ``60 Years of NASA Leadership in Human Space Exploration: Past, Present, and Future.'' I'll recognize myself for 5 minutes for an opening statement. The 36th Congressional District of Texas is home to the Johnson Space Center, a source of pride for all Texans. Representing my constituents and JSC has been one of the proudest and most exciting experiences during my Congressional tenure. I am honored to have the privilege of serving as the Chairman of the Space House Subcommittee as well. This role has shown me just how vital NASA is to our Nation. Sixty years of outstanding achievements by NASA have served to lay the foundation for even more incredible feats over the next 60 years. Every single one of these remarkable accomplishments would not have occurred had it not been for the amazing individuals who have made up the NASA team over the years. The unique capabilities and experience of the workforce at each of NASA's centers, three of which are represented here today, were very critical in helping NASA accomplish such audacious goals. To accomplish remarkable feats in the future, our NASA centers, workforce, and industry must be healthy and vibrant. One of the first bills signed into law this Congressional session was the 2017 NASA Transition Authorization Act, which directed NASA to provide a Human Exploration Roadmap. Although that report arrived a little later than originally planned, it is finally here. The new National Space Exploration Campaign laid out in the report not only charts a bold course for American human space exploration in the years and decades to come, it also provides an opportunity for JSC to continue serving a central role in exploration, as the expertise in Houston is critical to taking our astronauts beyond low-Earth orbit. As I said in my July 25 column in the Houston Chronicle, the next time any American sets foot on the Moon or Mars, I want to again ensure that the first word from the surface is ``Houston.'' To meet these new goals, we need to build upon and cultivate the invaluable and unique capabilities of each center and to utilize their irreplaceable workforce, which is a competitive asset for our Nation. Following the passage of the 2017 NASA authorization, I introduced H.R. 5503, the 2018 NASA Authorization Act. This bill reaffirms JSC's leadership role in human spaceflight operations and consolidates NASA's systems and integration work on space suits, providing greater efficiencies, preserving the industrial base, and keeping JSC's engineering and space operations capabilities ``front and center.'' Just this morning, I introduced the Leading Human Spaceflight Act to provide further Congressional direction to NASA. This bill reaffirms JSC's leadership role as the home of American human spaceflight, and this legislation also recognizes that, based on their historical role and extensive expertise and capabilities, Johnson Space Center is the logical center to serve a lead role in program management, systems engineering, program integration, and operations for NASA's human space exploration program, particularly those outlined in the Human Space Exploration Campaign. As I've said before, the ISS is the crown jewel of America's human spaceflight program. Leadership in LEO returns tremendous economic benefits of space exploration to Earth. My bill promotes policy that will lead to a permanent and continuous U.S. human presence in LEO and authorizes NASA to operate the ISS until 2030, or until we have demonstrated a sustainable lower-cost alternative. At the same time, NASA is directed to start work with the private sector in developing the commercial capabilities to meet America's future needs in low-Earth orbit. And while I've talked at length about JSC this afternoon, space exploration is a team effort, and I am very, very proud of the work done at all of our NASA centers. We must ensure that we learn from the past to prevent the detrimental gaps in prior transitions and protect our most important asset--the people--the irreplaceable workforce that have brought us this far and will take us into the next 60 years of space exploration. [The prepared statement of Chairman Babin follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Babin. And speaking of the invaluable workforce, I understand that NASA's Flight Director class of 2018 is in the audience today. I just shook hands with all of them, I believe. These new Flight Directors have begun their training on flight control and vehicle systems, operational leadership, and training and risk management, and they aim to complete their training in 2019 and join an elite group of less than 100 Flight Directors who will lead America in our future human spaceflight missions. We welcome you today and thank you for your service. I want to thank the witnesses. I'm sorry I was running late. I didn't get a chance to come in the room in there and get to shake your hands. We had to vote, and I rushed in as quickly as I could, but I want to thank you for--each and every one of you for being here, and I look forward to your testimony. Let me introduce--what do we have? Oh, I now recognize the Ranking Member. I don't have that page. I'm sorry. Sorry about that---- Mr. Bera. Don't worry. Chairman Babin. --Ranking Member. I now recognize the Ranking Member, the gentleman from California, a good friend, for an opening statement. Mr. Bera. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for calling this hearing on 60 years of NASA leadership in human space exploration, past, present, and future. I've said this often in this Committee when I think about the past, having grown up in Downey, California, which was the home of Rockwell International at that time and in the midst of the Apollo program, just the excitement of the late '60s and early '70s. In many ways that led to my interest in science. And while I didn't become a NASA astronaut, I did go to medical school and become a doctor. And I think for a generation of kids, it led to kids going into engineering, kids going into the sciences and really captured our imagination. So, you know, the past and when we think about NASA, it is one of the iconic brands that has accomplished a lot, but it also in a sense of patriotism, it's one of the things that we're most proud about in the last 50 years. It's also--when I--we think about the present, it's not that often we get four senior-level NASA Administrators and the folks that are really on the forefront here, so thank you to the witnesses for being here and the work that you do and the pride that you give us as Americans. When we think about the future and we think about our NASA centers--and I think that's something that the Chairman and I and the full committee have thought about. We really have to start giving NASA and our whole space program a roadmap, a strategic plan. We can't change that strategic plan from Administration to Administration, particularly if we're setting a goal--and my colleague Mr. Perlmutter from Colorado is not here, but he'd say well, the goal is to get to Mars by 2033. Well, if we are setting that goal, again, we've got to give NASA that roadmap and give the men and women and our commercial industries that roadmap so we can move forward with that. That was one of the things that made us very successful in the lunar mission was it didn't matter if it was a Democratic Administration or Republican Administration. We set a goal, we set our minds to it, we put our ingenuity into it, and we got there. And I think that's certainly my hope is Congress working with the Administration does start to lay out what that roadmap looks like. With that I'd be interested as we start hearing from the witnesses within our centers, how can the centers be a cornerstone of that sustainability and how we move forward? In addition, what are the challenges that we might face as we look at those future missions, whether those are an aging workforce, if there's a skills gap, et cetera, and what are some things that we should be focusing in on as we look at the question of the future, and where should we focus as Congress? And then what are some of the barriers in terms of funding and predictability, et cetera, because, again, if the goal is to go to Mars by 2033, we don't know how we're going to get there. We didn't know how we were going to get to the Moon, but let's set that challenge and then let's put our shoulders into it and our ingenuity into it and then let's go meet that challenge. So, again, thank all of you for your service and, you know, making this country proud. And again, I look forward to the testimony. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Bera follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Babin. Thank you. I now recognize the Ranking Member of the full Committee for a statement, the gentlewoman from Texas. Ms. Johnson. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon and welcome to all of our NASA witnesses. It's really good to see all of you here from NASA. In concert with our international, academic, and commercial partners, NASA and the Nation are closer than we have been in decades to launching the world's largest heavy-lift rocket, sending crew beyond the Earth's neighborhood, launching humans to the International Space Station from domestic soil, and developing a shared vision on how to get humans to the surface of Mars. This is an exciting time in our nation's space history, and NASA and its workforce are planning an important role in bringing these dreams to reality. So I'd like to take a moment to thank all of you from the NASA Centers and the Directors of the workforce that you represent, and the work that you do every day to achieve America's goal. Last Friday, NASA transmitted the National Space Exploration Campaign report in response to direction in the NASA Transition Authorization Act of 2017. I'm pleased that we have finally received this report, and I look forward, Mr. Chairman, to a vigorous discussion of the report's contents. The report was to provide the necessary plans to enable a human mission to Mars, a national goal enshrined in law. I also look forward to continuing our discussion of the proposed International Space Station transition. If Congress decides to end direct financial support for the Space Station at some point during the next decade, we will need a well- thought-out transition in place. A repeat of the negative experience that followed the end of the Shuttle program would not be in the best interest, and nor would it be consistent with the goal of a sustainable exploration program. And, Mr. Chairman, before closing, I want to say that it is important to recognize that today's space program is not the government program that existed 60 years ago. The expanding number of space actors, both government and non-government, provide increased capabilities that NASA can leverage in meeting our space exploration goals. But it is equally important to recognize that, as NASA is doing with the International Space Station, we need NASA to provide the leadership required for a successful long-term collaborative partnership to send humans to Mars. I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for having this hearing, and I hope that we'll follow a sensible course. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Ms. Johnson follows:] [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Babin. Yes, ma'am. Thank you. I now recognize the Chairman of the full Committee, the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Smith. Chairman Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The recently released National Space Exploration Campaign report shows we are truly in an exciting time for our Nation and NASA. Our witnesses today include the head of NASA's human spaceflight programs and the Directors of three NASA centers who carry out major human spaceflight responsibilities. Together, they are responsible for implementing and carrying out much of this campaign, and we are fortunate to have them with us. With clear Congressional direction, strong White House leadership, and NASA's tremendous expertise, we have all the resources available to make significant progress in human space exploration. I'm pleased that NASA has delivered a Human Exploration Roadmap, as required by the 2017 NASA Transition Authorization Act. The National Space Exploration Campaign lays out a bold and achievable plan for human exploration that includes low-Earth orbit, the Moon, Mars, and beyond. The report also specifies key critical decision points for future human space exploration. By laying out an open architecture with key decision points, off ramps, and deadlines, the campaign demonstrates resilience, constancy, and sustainability. We cannot always predict which ambitious projects will succeed or what future missions may discover, but this campaign builds in opportunities to capitalize on successes while mitigating misfortunes. I believe this report also clarifies the Administration's policy on the International Space Station and its future. Clearly, NASA and the Administration do not intend to abandon America's presence in low-Earth orbit. This campaign lays out some of the first details about how the United States can preserve its leadership in low-Earth orbit, while extending its reach outward to the Moon, Mars, and beyond. At the same time, I note that Subcommittee Chairman Babin has introduced the Leading Human Spaceflight Act, which builds on the ISS Transition Report and the ISS policy laid out in the National Space Exploration Campaign report and provides forward-leaning Congressional leadership as we move into the next phase of low-Earth orbit utilization, and I want to thank the Chairman of the Subcommittee for introducing that legislation. I am sure that Mr. Gerstenmaier will agree that all of NASA's centers play an important and vital role in our Nation's space program. Each center is an incredible technological asset and engine of economic development. The goals and tasks laid out in the National Space Exploration Campaign will provide many opportunities for each center to bring their unique capabilities to bear. Three of those centers will be represented here today to tell us how they intend to contribute to this campaign and what it means for their workforces and their communities. As we near the end of this Congress, I cannot tell you how pleased I am with our progress in space over the last six years. We are on the verge of one of the most ambitious eras in space that this country has ever seen. I hope the testimony we hear today will shed additional light on these exciting times. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I'll yield back. [The prepared statement of Chairman Smith follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Babin. Thank you. I appreciate you, Mr. Chairman. Now, I'd like to recognize the gentleman from Florida for an opening statement, Mr. Posey. Mr. Posey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for holding this hearing. This year, we celebrate the 60th anniversary of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration, the world's premier and most respected space exploration agency and the only federal agency tasked with space exploration. We've come a long way since the inspiring words of President Kennedy, who motivated this country to make and keep a promise to put a man on the Moon and return him safely to Earth by the end of the 1960s, not because it was easy but because it was hard. If I were to say, ``Kitty Hawk,'' everyone would immediately think of the Wright brothers and the first flight of man. If you say, ``Cape Canaveral'' or ``Kennedy Space Center,'' most people, in my generation certainly, would say in return, ``Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Space Shuttle.'' Our nation is so very proud of the men and women at our space center who continue the noble work of our space program. They know and we know that space exploration is demanding work and that they will meet any of the challenges, however bold that they may be in the future. As other members have mentioned earlier today, Members of Congress have been asking NASA for a detailed roadmap to Mars for several years now, and I've advanced a bipartisan legislative proposal to return to the Moon and to go onward to Mars from there. Today, we have bold leadership. The President's directive, NASA, and the National Space Council are all preparing the way. America must not fall behind. I look forward to hearing our witnesses and learning more about the national space exploration strategy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Babin. Yes, sir. Thank you. And now, I'd like to introduce our witnesses today. Mr. Bill Gerstenmaier, our first witness today, is the Associate Administrator of the Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate at NASA. He develops the strategic direction for all aspects of NASA's human exploration of space and provides programmatic direction for the continued operation and the utilization of our International Space Station. Mr. Gerstenmaier began his NASA career in 1977, performing aeronautical research, and he's managed NASA's human spaceflight portfolio since 2011. He received a Bachelor of Science in aeronautical engineering from Purdue University and a Master of Science in mechanical engineering from the University of Toledo. Thank you for being here, Mr. Gerstenmaier. Our second witness today is Mr. Mark Geyer, Director of NASA's Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas, located in my district. In his role, Mr. Geyer leads a workforce of about 10,000 civil servants and contractor employees. He began his NASA career in 1990 and later joined the International Space Station program in 1994. He has served in a variety of roles there, including Chair of the Space Station Mission Management Team. Mr. Geyer earned both his Bachelor of Science and Master of Science degrees in aeronautical and astronautical engineering from Purdue University in Indiana. Thank you for being here. Ms. Jody Singer, our third witness today, Director of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. Appointed in September of 2018 as the first woman to ever run Marshall. Ms. Singer manages one of NASA's largest field installations with nearly 6,000 civil service and contractor employees and an annual budget of $2.8 billion. During her 32- year career at NASA, Ms. Singer has held leadership roles in human spaceflight, technology, and science programs and projects. Ms. Singer earned a bachelor's degree in industrial engineering from the University of Alabama. Welcome. Your football team is just doing fantastic this year. And last but not least is Mr. Bob Cabana, our final witness today, Director of NASA's John F. Kennedy Space Center, or KSC, in Florida. Mr. Cabana manages all NASA facilities and activities at the spaceport, including the team of civil service and contractor employees who operate and support numerous space programs and projects. Mr. Cabana was selected as an astronaut candidate in 1985, and he served in a number of leadership positions at the Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center Astronaut Office. He has logged 38 days in space. Mr. Cabana graduated from the U.S. Naval Academy in 1971 with a bachelor's degree in mathematics. I welcome you as well, Mr. Cabana. I now recognize Mr. Gerstenmaier for 5 minutes to present his testimony. TESTIMONY OF MR. WILLIAM GERSTENMAIER, ASSOCIATE ADMINISTRATOR, HUMAN EXPLORATION AND OPERATIONS MISSION DIRECTORATE, NASA Mr. Gerstenmaier. Thank you very much. It's an honor to be here with this panel and also to represent the men and women of NASA. Stopping to reflect on the past, present, and future of human exploration at NASA on this 60th anniversary is important and worthy of serious discussion. As we look back on the past, we must be extremely careful. As we look back, we carry a bias in the way we--as we know the outcome of the events that transpired. We also tend to link decisions and outcomes in ways that may not be correct. We have a natural hindsight bias and have a tendency to remember only the good things or the tragedies, and we miss the subtle things that were critical to success. We miss understanding the difficult decisions that were made with little data and appear perfect--and appear as perfect decisions in hindsight. We also discount the role of luck in some of our outcomes. I can tell you from my own experience of having written many design requirements and flight rules in the past and now hearing the new generation of engineers and designers discuss the logic for these flight rules and design criteria, their perception today for the requirements and flight rules does not match the logic or the environment in which these requirements were written. We should learn from the past but recognize that our view of the past is flawed and try not to develop a strategy based solely on our perception of the past. There are also new processes and techniques that did not exist in the past. We need to look for new approaches and develop new ways of designing systems and building hardware. The capabilities of others outside of NASA is radically different than in the past. Both private industry and countries have the ability to contribute in huge ways that were not possible in the past. And looking forward to the future, it's difficult to predict the exact plan or capability that we need. Space Policy Directive-1 provides an appropriate solid base for the future. I'll read from the policy. It says, ``to lead an innovative and sustainable program of exploration with commercial and international partners, to enable human expansion across the solar system, and to bring back to Earth new knowledge and opportunities. Beginning with missions beyond low-Earth orbit, the United States will lead the return of humans to the Moon for long-term exploration and utilization, followed by human missions to Mars and other destinations.'' This policy is great in that it does not over-specify the how but describes key considerations, that is, an innovative and sustainable program with commercial and international partners and to enable human expansion across the solar system. The policy even covers the why, to bring back to Earth new knowledge and opportunities. This is a good policy to build off of for the future. Rather than speculate on the future, let's spend a few moments reflecting on the present. Today, we sit with more hardware in development for human spaceflight than at any time in our past. We have two commercial crew transportation systems nearing completion and ready for--ready to fly crew to the ISS in the next year: Boeing CST-100 and SpaceX Dragon. We have an Orion capsule ready for Exploration Mission 1 and the European Service Module for Orion that has completed assembly in Germany. The service module will shift to the Kennedy Space Center for integration with Orion in late October and will undergo 400 days of integrated testing at KSC in Plum Brook in Ohio prior to flight. The flight engines and solid rocket motors and liquid engines are ready for flight. The Space Launch System flight hardware is undergoing manufacturing and is planned to ship to Stennis next June for testing. In the next nine months, there will be two un-crewed flight tests to the ISS, a pad abort test for Boeing, a high-altitude abort test for SpaceX, a pad abort test for the Orion vehicle. Further, the Orion capsule pressure shell for the first human crewed mission around the Moon, EM-2, is at KSC beginning integration. This is an amazing time. Outside of NASA, we should also see the private sector suborbital flights with Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin next year. Lastly, we've had crews in space continuously for 18 years. The research being done by the crews on ISS is amazing, and the technology development will allow divisions of Space Policy Directive-1 to be accomplished. We are likely never to see another space facility as amazing as the International Space Station in our lifetimes. These may be the good old days for the future generation. We in human spaceflight are often accused of being too optimistic by review teams and inspectors. I like to think that we are appropriately optimistic. We must dream big to lead. The challenge of the lunar landing was huge and required appropriate optimism. We can do these big things, but there will always be risks, risks to the lives of our astronauts, risks to our careers and legacies, risks to schedules and budgets. We can mitigate some of these obvious risks, but these risks cannot be truly managed or eliminated. We need to openly discuss these risks and make sure that they are understood. These risks are part of enabling human expansion across the solar system. Appropriate optimism is required to be a leader and to create the next 60 years of amazing accomplishments. I look forward to a good hearing. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Gerstenmaier follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Babin. Thank you very much for that testimony. Now, I recognize Mr. Geyer for 5 minutes to present his testimony. TESTIMONY OF MR. MARK GEYER, DIRECTOR, JOHNSON SPACE CENTER, NASA Mr. Geyer. Chairman Babin, Ranking Member Bera, thank you, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to be here today to discuss the ISS and human exploration. So NASA has an exciting and challenging future, and the Johnson Space Center stands ready to support the Human Exploration and Operations Mission Directorate and work in partnerships with our other NASA human spaceflight centers to enable that future. NASA's JSC was established in 1961, and from the Gemini, Apollo, and Space Shuttle missions to today's International Space Station and Orion programs, the center has led the development and operation of historic human spaceflight programs. JSC's famed mission control center or MCC has been the operational hub of every American human space mission since Gemini IV. The MCC manages all activity on board the space station and will play a pivotal role in commercial crew vehicle flights flying astronauts to and from the ISS in the near future. The MCC will direct the flights of Orion when it launches on top of the Space Launch System that takes humans beyond low-Earth orbit for the first time since 1972. JSC is also home to the NASA's Astronaut Corps and is responsible for training space explorers from the United States and our space station partner nations. As such, it is the principal training site for the ISS expedition crews. JSC also leads NASA's flight-related scientific and medical research efforts and strives to make revolutionary discoveries and advances to benefit not only our ability to live and work in space but all of humankind. Technologies developed originally for spaceflight have already found a wide range of applications in medicine, energy, transportation, agriculture, communications, and electronics. JSC leads the development of the Orion spacecraft and provides space craft expertise in support of KSC's Commercial Crew Program. JSC will lead a high-altitude test flight of Orion abort system in April of 2019, which will showcase the power and complexity of this critical system used to enhance crew safety during ascent. These efforts continue JSC's legacy as human spacecraft development experts. The Johnson Space Center also has unique expertise in extravehicular activity, suit development, and operations. At JSC we manage EVA execution training integration, as well as development for the suits, systems, and support equipment. The United States has performed a total of 252 EVAs, totaling over 1,500 hours, including over 1,000 hours of EVAs during the assembly and operation of the ISS program. The Johnson Space Center is a world leader in complex programmatic and system integration. For example, for more than 20 years we have--JSC has managed the integration, assembly, and operation of the ISS. The space station is a multinational microgravity laboratory, continuously occupied since November of 2000. The ISS has hosted 232 individuals from 18 countries. An international crew of six people live and work while traveling at a speed of five miles per second orbiting the Earth every 90 minutes. Microgravity, along with many other beneficial environmental conditions, provide a unique research environment to support bioscience, physical science, remote- sensing, and technology development projects. Over 2,400 investigations by over 100 countries have been performed in space station history, and this number increases every week. JSC has also developed and implemented cutting-edge partnering strategies. The Commercial Orbital Transportation Services program, COTS, and the cargo resupply contract strategy enabled two companies to develop launch vehicles and spacecraft through public-private partnerships, which now resupply critical cargo to the ISS. This initiative has shown the power and the challenges of the strategy which will be important--an important part of any future sustainable exploration plan. Looking forward, the White House Space Policy Directive-1 calls for the NASA Administrator to lead and innovative and sustainable program of exploration and commercial with--with commercial and international partners to enable human expansion across the solar system and bring back to Earth new knowledge and opportunities. JSC has demonstrated the capability to unite commercial and international partners to complete bold missions. By continuing the use of the ISS as a low-Earth orbit laboratory to buy down human risk factors presented by space travel and to develop the technologies that will enable humans to journey to the Moon and beyond, NASA has already established the foundation necessary to expand the frontier of human space exploration. Partnerships with commercial international partners have already been established to build, operate, and maintain the ISS and have established a template to follow for human expansion across the solar system. Knowledge gained on the space station has already benefited humans on Earth and points to the future promise of new knowledge and opportunities from human space exploration. NASA and JSC look forward to the future of human space exploration. Commercial companies are currently launching cargo to the space station from Virginia and Florida. In the very near future, the tempo of Americans spaceflight will increase exponentially as commercial companies prepare to launch American astronauts to the ISS from the United States. On August 3, 2018, at a ceremony at JSC we named the astronaut crew of brave men and women who will fly on our first commercial missions. This milestone was another reminder of JSC's central role in human space exploration. As I mentioned before, the Orion and SLS will soon be flying humans beyond low-Earth orbit. These systems enable access to the lunar region and will be used in the near term to assemble and utilize elements of a human outpost around the Moon. JSC stands ready to apply its unique capabilities and complex program management, partnerships, system integration, operations, spacecraft design, and human health and performance in partnership with our fellow NASA centers, commercial partners, international partners as NASA fulfills the initiatives set forward by the National Space Council and the White House. Thank you very much. [The prepared statement of Mr. Geyer follows:] [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Babin. Yes, sir. Thank you for your testimony. I now recognize Ms. Singer for 5 minutes to present her testimony. TESTIMONY OF MS. JODY SINGER, DIRECTOR, MARSHALL SPACE FLIGHT CENTER, NASA Ms. Singer. Thank you, Chairman Babin and Members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for this opportunity to address this Committee and represent Marshall Space Flight Center where I began my 32-year NASA career. I was recently honored to be named Center Director by the Administrator Jim Bridenstine. It is a privilege to testify before you with my colleagues here today. At Marshall we make human deep space exploration possible. As you know, one of our flagship programs is the Space Launch System. The Space Launch System is unmatched in its capabilities and will deliver human-rated spacecraft, habitats, along with unprecedented science missions to the Moon, to Mars, and beyond. Our work on SLS builds on nearly 60 years of leadership in human space exploration. At Marshall, we have a storied history of expertise in developing and integrating large, complex, human-rated systems on behalf of the agency and our country. It started with Apollo, then expanded to include Skylab, Hubble, Spacelab, Shuttle, Chandra, and eventually the International Space Station, or ISS. Marshall has been essential to the creation and utilization of the International Space Station, beginning with the integration of the modules. Node 1 was built in Huntsville with Marshall supporting the build and delivery of nodes 2 and 3. The U.S. laboratory was built in the Saturn V test facility in Huntsville, Alabama. The Marshall team designed and developed the Environmental Control and Life-Support System called the ECLSS, which provides water and oxygen for the crew. We're using what we know about these essential and complex systems so that we can better enable long-term human exploration into deep space. For more than 17 years we have supported the ISS with our 24/7 operations, 365-days-a-year management of science operations. We have hosted more than 2,300 research investigations from researchers in 103 countries to date. We also support the Commercial Crew Program, which will allow us to launch American astronauts from American soil to the ISS for the first time since the Shuttle program ended in 2011. In addition to SLS, ISS, and other technology development activities, we are excited to be working with commercial partners and other NASA centers on a number of robotic and human lander development programs, which will return our nation to the Moon. We have a long and storied role in our Nation's human spaceflight program, and we couldn't do it alone. At NASA, we are driven by partnerships and constantly reminded of the old saying, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, we go together. Our partnerships with industry, with academia, and with other government entities are instrumental to our success. As we look ahead to what it will take to expand human presence in our solar system, we look forward to continue to provide our expertise in large integrated human exploration systems as we partner to develop landers, habitats, transit systems, and integrated exploration systems as we partner to develop as we go forward. All of these will be essential elements for deep space human exploration. We are preparing for our return to the Moon and to travel on to Mars as we continue to help the United States lead the world in exploration and discovery of the unknown. I am excited to be a part of our Nation's space program, and I'm honored to be part of a team of experienced and passionate professionals who are ready to take on any and all challenges that arise as we aim to push human presence deeper into space than we ever have before. Thank you, and I look forward to answering your questions. [The prepared statement of Ms. Singer follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Babin. Thank you, Ms. Singer. I now recognize Mr. Cabana for his 5 minutes of testimony. TESTIMONY OF MR. ROBERT CABANA, DIRECTOR, JOHN F. KENNEDY SPACE CENTER, NASA Mr. Cabana. Thank you for the opportunity to appear today to discuss KSC's contributions to 60 years of NASA leadership in human space exploration, past, present, and future. NASA's John F. Kennedy Space Center is the United States' preeminent multiuser spaceport for government and commercial access to space. KSC's rich history dates back to 1962 when it was first established as a NASA launch operations center, and from those first steps on the Moon through 30 years of the Space Shuttle, culminating in the completion of the International Space Station to the myriad of NASA science missions, expanding our knowledge of the universe and home planet, KSC has led the way in innovative, efficient, and cost- effective spacecraft processing, launch, and recovery. Today, we continue to lead. Since the last Shuttle mission in July of 2011, the center has transformed to enable commercial operations, better utilizing our assets and strengthening America's space program. By early next year it is our goal to once again be flying U.S. astronauts to space on an American rocket from U.S. soil, a direct result of establishing KSC as a multiuser spaceport. In 2017, the United States led the world in launches for the first time since 2003. Of the 29 U.S. launches last year, 12 were from the Kennedy Space Center. I'd like to recognize the great partnership we have with the 45th Space Wing and the FAA that helped to enable that. In addition to the many ground operations going on at KSC, commercial operations going on at KSC, the Exploration Ground Systems program is preparing the center to once again enable us to explore beyond low-Earth orbit with NASA's Space Launch System and the Orion spacecraft. Recently, the mobile launcher rolled from the park site out to pad 39B for a fit check and is now in high bay 3 of the vehicle assembly building, undergoing verification and validation testing. With this move, we are essentially complete with the construction of all the facilities necessary to process and launch the vehicle for Exploration Mission 1. To support future exploration missions, we're in the process of procuring a second mobile launcher that accommodates the exploration upper stage Block 1B version of the SLS and eliminates a three-year gap between missions. As we prepare for the launch of SLS and Orion and a return to the Moon, NASA will soon begin work on the Gateway, a flexible outpost in cislunar space that will provide access to anywhere on the Moon and enable sustained exploration of the lunar surface, expanding our knowledge and proving technologies needed for eventual trips to Mars and beyond. The Gateway, a logistics effort, will involve procuring commercial services via fixed-price contracts for the delivery of cargo to support science and exploration missions staged from the Gateway, including human exploration. KSC is positioned to provide its core area of expertise: commercial acquisition, contract management, payload processing, ground processing, and launch integration to support Gateway and ensure its success. Five years ago, the KSC team set out to restore our prominence as the place where astronauts launch to space. With NASA's desire to stimulate commercial markets, coupled with the availability of historic space processing and launch assets, we set an ambitious goal to be the home of five human spaceflight providers. Today, through commercial crew, exploration ground systems, and our commercial partners, we're supporting the development of four human spaceflight providers, and we haven't given up on the fifth. We're also launching the agency's science missions through the Launch Services Program. With five of six planned missions already successfully completed this year, our multiuser spaceport is prospering like never before. Truly, the sky is not the limit at KSC. Finally, I'd like to recognize the upcoming 20th anniversary of the first assembly mission of the ISS. On December 4, 1998, I had the privilege of commanding Endeavour on that first mission and activating the space station for the first time and entering it. As we noted in the first log entry of the ISS, ``From small beginnings, great things come,'' and the ISS has more than exceeded its expectation as a world-class microgravity lab, a superb engineering testbed, as a partnership--international partnership model for the future and as a destination that made commercial crew and cargo programs a reality. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, I'd like to thank you for your time and attention this afternoon, but more importantly, I'd like to thank you for your support of America's space program, and I look forward to your questions. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Cabana follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Babin. Thank you very much, Mr. Cabana. Now, the Chair recognizes himself for 5 minutes for questions. This is going to be for everyone. Considering the current discussion about ISS transition, what is NASA doing to prevent another detrimental capability gap as we have experienced in the past, most recently with the retirement of the Space Shuttle? And I'll start with you, Mr. Gerstenmaier. Mr. Gerstenmaier. You've seen our transition plan for ISS, and we treat that very seriously. And we're not just doing a plan, but we issued some study contracts to 12 companies, and those companies are going to give us business plans and market analysis for how they could potentially use the space station or they could use low-Earth orbit to provide some capability for us in the future. So we're going to see what industry is interested in, what they can provide, and therefore, we'll build a smooth transition so we don't have an abrupt end of one program and then start another program. We need to make sure there's a continuity of human spaceflight where there--we continue this human presence in low-Earth orbit, and NASA becomes one of many users of low-Earth orbit. Chairman Babin. Thank you very much. Mr. Geyer? Mr. Geyer. Yes, I think if we described the incredible things the space station is providing today and I think a great conversation about we really don't want the gap in low-Earth orbit, so as Bill described where we're putting together a plan that looks logically at how we might build other capabilities so NASA is one of many users and put together a well-thought- through plan. I think also the key is, as we go into exploration further into the solar system, how do we take the lessons from ISS into those other endeavors like the Gateway and so forth and keep those partnerships strong. All those are very important parts to consider. Chairman Babin. All right. Thank you. And, Ms. Singer? Ms. Singer. Yes, sir. I looked as far as the exploration program and how we're going, that that is setting out a roadmap that will help us. I went through the Shuttle, and I went through the--after flying out the Shuttle in 2011 and saw the gap. I think one of the things that we are looking forward to is learning off of lessons learned, and also going forward, one of the things that we're doing is there's a lot on our plate. The future is very bright. We have to deliver on our missions today and make sure that we invest in our people and making sure that we form partnerships that will make us a sustainable program. So I think all of that focus will keep us strong and going. Chairman Babin. Excellent. Mr. Cabana? Mr. Cabana. Thank you. Mr. Gerstenmaier laid out the plan well, and I think it's critical that we have a follow-on for the International Space Station, that we do have a plan for low-Earth orbit. Even as we explore beyond our home planet, I believe that there is a place for operations in Earth orbit, and it's critical that we have a destination for our commercial partners, both crew and cargo, to have a viable commercial base there, so we're working hard to ensure through our partnerships that we can commercialize the ISS and that we have a future beyond it in low-Earth orbit. Chairman Babin. Thank you very much. And then for Mr. Gerstenmaier, during the early development phases of a program, program management from headquarters is understandable. However, once acquisitions begin, do you believe that program management should be done from the centers where the workforce and expertise exist to perform these roles for NASA? Mr. Gerstenmaier. Yes, definitely. And we're in the process of laying that out and figuring out the right time to transition activities from kind of putting together the strategy at headquarters and then passing it down to the centers for actual implementation and doing the day-to-day management of the project. Chairman Babin. Right. Mr. Gerstenmaier. But I think it's important in the beginning headquarters kind of sets those bigger-picture goals of where the partnerships ought to be, new ways of doing business, et cetera. Then we could hand that off, and the execution is much better done at the centers. Chairman Babin. Absolutely. Thank you. And then for Mr. Geyer, in your new role as JSC Center Director, how are you leveraging the decades of experience your team has serving as the lead center for human spaceflight program management, systems engineering, program integration, and operations? Mr. Geyer. So what we do, first of all, is we participate with the studies that are done on the future and the exploration campaign is a good example of that. We provide inputs and expertise as the strategy is being put together, again, bringing what we've seen and what we've learned in the past, and then we support the conversations of--as we decide to roll those programs out, making sure that JSC is poised and has the folks ready to do those jobs. Chairman Babin. Thank you. And what is JSC doing to encourage commercial partnerships with the center? Mr. Geyer. So a couple things, of course, we have the big contracts that are obvious, the commercial cargo is a great example of a technique we've used to buy services, and we've seen what that's done to actually create the capability. We participate with Kennedy on the Commercial Crew Program, which now has taken the next step in actually flying our crews, so it's a bigger, more challenging task. And then we also have-- even within the center on tasks that are infrastructure things like training crews, we put into our contracts the capability for those contractors to actually bring in other customers to reduce our fixed cost and help us do our job for less money. Chairman Babin. I know I'm out of time, but I just want to get something in. What is the current workforce level, both civil servant and contractor, directly supporting ISS at your center? Mr. Geyer. I'll--we'll get back to you on that exact number. Chairman Babin. Okay. And then do you have a rough estimate on the numbers at the other centers supporting ISS, or maybe I should ask the other two real quick, Ms. Singer and Mr. Cabana? Ms. Singer. I don't have the exact number in front of me. I'll have to take that for the record---- Chairman Babin. Okay. Ms. Singer. --and get back to you. Chairman Babin. Okay. Mr. Cabana. I'll take it for the record also, Mr. Chairman---- Chairman Babin. All right, great. Mr. Cabana. --and get you the exact number. Chairman Babin. Okay. Well, I'll yield back. Thank you very much. Now, the gentlewoman from Texas, Ms. Johnson. Ms. Johnson. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Well, Ms. Singer and Mr. Cabana and Mr. Geyer, the Space Exploration Campaign is anticipated to involve partnerships with industry, academia, and international entities. What is the most important role of NASA and the centers in a multi- partner Space Exploration Campaign? Mr. Geyer. Well, I think, first of all, it's NASA's job to provide the vision and the strategy and then to set the acquisition plan, exactly how are we going to accomplish these goals and how do we decide how to partner, who's going to do what jobs. That's a big part that NASA provides. Mr. Cabana. Yes, I think I'd say it even more simply than that. NASA leads. We provide the direction, we coordinate, we ensure that we work together as one team, and we set the course with our requirements and how we go about doing it. Ms. Singer. And I would add to both of their statements and say a critical part of it is NASA working together. We work together, centers to centers, working with the agency, as well as with our partners, to make sure we deliver on what the Nation needs, and that includes delivering on our commitments, executing our missions, making sure that we have the right infrastructure and people in place with the right training, as well as forward thinking to make sure we have a readiness. We're ready to be able to execute the missions put in front of us. And then obviously cultivating partnerships, having partners, and the ability to be more flexible, agile, and having the ability to execute is critical. Ms. Johnson. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman Babin. Yes, ma'am. Thank you very much. I now recognize the gentleman from Oklahoma, Mr. Lucas. Mr. Lucas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, Mr. Gerstenmaier, my colleagues have commented on the early space program, the Apollo program, that went on in my youth of course that instilled in a whole generation of Americans a different perspective for looking at the stars and drove people into the field of math and science. And of course we have a renewed interest now with all the spectacular things going on in space exploration in this country. Could you expand for a moment on how the National Space Exploration Campaign could potentially have a similar effect on our culture as a society regarding an interest in and fascination with space and science in general? Mr. Gerstenmaier. I think what's interesting is there's a couple pieces. First of all, we shouldn't discount the space station and what it can do today to inspire the next generation. I'm often amazed when I go talk to college students how much they're impressed by Station, and they relate to me things that I would think would only be attributable back to Apollo in the other days. So I think we need to celebrate what's going on with Station and what our crews are doing there every day. You know, continually operating a station is not easy and moving forward. As we talk about things like the Gateway around the Moon, what's intriguing about that is we're building a piece of infrastructure in space that can be used as a reusable piece by multiple folks, so what's exciting about the new vision is it's not a single mission. It's not a single ``achieve this.'' It has actually put in place an open architecture that can be used by the private sector, used by international partners. It can enable reusable spacecraft. So on the--in the Apollo program, we had a service module, a command module that was used once and thrown away. The Gateway can be that reusable service command module that's sits in space to be a destination for any spacecraft going to space with open standards. They can dock there. The lunar landing module will be reusable. And the neat thing is all this orbital mechanics, electric propulsion are all new technologies, new analysis, and we need the students today to start looking at new, creative ways to utilize space. So I think if we can put the challenge out there in a way every person in the United States, every person in the world can figure out a way that they can contribute to this space program that is now open, and it's the right role for government to put that piece of first infrastructure in place that just enables the world to innovate and be creative in utilizing space. Mr. Lucas. Oh, absolutely. And speaking of Gateway, could you visit with us for just a moment in whatever regard you can about the--and I know it's early in the process--the conversations that are going on with the potential commercial partners? I assume there is interest out there. I assume they are warming up and cranking up the designs to utilize the opportunities. You're getting that kind of feedback, correct? Mr. Gerstenmaier. Yes, definitely. With domestic providers we have several companies working on next-step broad-agency- announcement activities where there's actually modules available at some of the centers that you can go see where we're starting to look at what the U.S. habitation module will look like on Gateway. So that activity is moving forward. We're soliciting input from many of the companies, and we're also receiving a lot of interest from the science community. We've done one workshop in Colorado. The interest in doing science around the Moon and using the unique orbit of the Gateway was really amazing. We've also--there was a European activity also looking at science on Gateway, so, so far, there's been very strong support from industry. We're involving them in many ways to see how they can contribute in ways that help build this piece of infrastructure that is multiuse and multi-decades that can be used. Mr. Lucas. Absolutely. And speaking of that, I think I'd like to turn now to all three of the Center Directors. Can you visit for just a moment about the unique capacities that each of your particular centers have in regards to NASA's future and for that matter the National Space Exploration Campaign, the unique qualities that each center brings, just a little bit if you wouldn't mind? That's not a trick question, I promise. Mr. Cabana. So, absolutely, sir. I think, you know, you look at the Kennedy Space Center, this is where we process the vehicles. This is where we do the launch integration. This is where we launch to space. And there's no other place like it in the United States or in the world in my opinion. I think we do it right, and I look forward to processing and launching the vehicles that are going to be supporting Gateway. Mr. Lucas. Thank you. Ms. Singer. From a Marshall Space Flight Center standpoint, I look at Marshall's heritage and expertise that we have. We have development and integration experience in large and complex human systems, have been demonstrated in Apollo, Shuttle, and SLS. We have--deep space transportation systems will be critical for ascent and descent. We look to advanced manufacturing and additive manufacturing not only to be able to build our components but to build in space. Also the lifesupport systems that we see, we partner with other centers to make sure that we have the life-support system for survival, and also when I look about large science instruments, being able to understand the science and the world around us. So I see as our participation from a center perspective and as a group we all have a lot to offer in robotic and human exploration, and I think spaceflight in our future is very bright. And I think we'll be looking as to whether we'll be traveling to and through or living and working in space or understanding our world. I think we all can be significant contributors. Mr. Geyer. Yes, great. And so, yes, we're excited about the exploration campaign, and I think there's parts of that that we've mentioned. Certainly the astronauts are at JSC. We do operations, flight operations. We do human health and performance, learning how the body behaves in space, spacecraft design, and then really integrating complex not just engineering but also programmatic relationships like space station has both commercial--and ISS will be a big part I think about the sustainability of the new plan. So we're excited to work with our partners and get started on this new endeavor. Mr. Lucas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I just note to our panelists that those of us on this side of the table are constantly reminded we have to deliver our message, what, 17 times to get it to stick, so repetitiveness is the nature of bringing the general population along with us. I yield back, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Babin. Well said. Mr. Perlmutter. It takes us 21. Chairman Babin. Thank you, Mr. Perlmutter. I now recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Lamb. Mr. Lamb. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Gerstenmaier, what is the basis for the statement in the report that this strategy does not require significant funding increases or does not assume them? Could you talk a little bit about that? Mr. Gerstenmaier. Sure. What we're doing is we're trying to leverage the capability that already exists in the commercial industry. So, for example, the first element of Gateway is the power propulsion element. It will provide communications and electric propulsion for the Gateway spacecraft around the Moon. We noticed that the commercial satellite buses that are in existence today flying around with commercial satellites are very similar to what we need for this application, so we're going to leverage off of what's available in the commercial satellite industry, offer them the chance to add high-powered solar rays and high-powered electric propulsion to their spacecraft, and we think they'll be very interested in that activity. So therefore, we don't need to do a complete new redesign from the beginning. We can take advantage of the spacecraft that's flying on orbit today with 15 years of reliability and demonstrated performance, and that allows us to keep the cost fairly low, at least for that first acquisition. We're looking at the same thing for all the elements. We're looking to see what's available from the private sector, what we can do ourselves, where we can contribute to--and we spread the development out across several years such that we don't need a huge influx of funding on an annual basis to make this activity happen. Mr. Lamb. Okay. And are these mostly American commercial partners that you're talking about? Mr. Gerstenmaier. Yes. Mr. Lamb. Okay. Mr. Gerstenmaier. And again, you can see--I think in the report it talks about conceptually what we think it's international as well. If we want to be a leader, we're bringing in some international partners into the Gateway as well, and we've distributed some of the components. We chose areas that we think are uniquely important to us that we want to have in the United States where we want to continue to keep U.S. leadership, so that was kind of strategically defined how we picked our partners and put our partnerships together. Mr. Lamb. And does the lack of a need for significant funding increases, does that hold true only up to the landing of humans on the Moon or would it include, you know, further missions like the mission to Mars or do you know? Mr. Gerstenmaier. Again, I think we've kind of laid out the first framework to that point. We also assume reusability, so, for example, the--like I described earlier, the lunar landing module, we see that the--there's an ascent module that would be reusable and would not have to be replaced. The Gateway, as I described earlier, is a reusable piece. We think that helps keep costs down. It depends how many unique pieces we need going forward. It also depends how much interest there is in low-Earth orbit. We think we need to keep some presence in low- Earth orbit and will the commercial sector be able to generate revenues so NASA is one of many customers. So there's lots of what-ifs as we go out there. I think we do need more than a flatline budget. We need some increase each year at least consistent with inflation, maybe slightly above, but it's that moderate increase, and that's what that statement tries to capture in the report. Mr. Lamb. Thank you. Can we talk a little bit about the use of private lunar landers specifically? And this could be for Mr. Gerstenmaier or anyone on the panel who's familiar with it. But there's a company, for example, in Pittsburgh near where I'm from called Astrobotic that's planning on launching its first mission in 2020. This to me seems like a success story along the lines of what you're talking about where we are having private commercial companies do Moon missions for the first time really in history. Is that--on that specific point of having them do lunar landers, is that a place where you've seen a lot of success, and what opportunities does that create I guess is my question. Mr. Gerstenmaier. It--I think as the other Center Directors talked a little bit about, one of the unique roles of NASA is we have a lot of internal expertise, so we supported a lot of these smaller companies transferring some of our knowledge to them, so we helped many of the providers that you've described and talked about. And we're going to do a services contract through the Science Mission Directorate that's a sister directorate to mine that will look at commercial landed services on the Moon, and these will be small landers, less than 100 kilograms or so kind of landed mass, and the company that you described is one of the participants potentially in that activity. So we're off doing that solicitation now. That will let us see what the commercial sector can provide. Then once we understand that, when we do the more highly reliable, more complex human class landers which are, you know, up to 1,000 kilograms landed or 2,000, 3,000 kilograms landed on the Moon, we can learn from those early activities to see where we need to do extra analysis, extra research to move forward. So we have kind of a phased program of small-class landers, mid-class landers, and then human-class landers, so those are three integrated programs that allow us to explore and see what commercial industry can provide, what their skills are, and then we only dial-in what we uniquely need to add to what the commercial sector can do to give us a highly reliable human transportation landing capability in the future. Mr. Lamb. Thank you very much, sir. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman Babin. Yes, sir, thank you. I now recognize the gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Abraham. Mr. Abraham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I get to my questions, I certainly want to recognize the role that Louisiana plays in our space missions. New Orleans is home to the Michoud Assembly Facility where NASA is building the Space Launch System that Ms. Singer referenced and the Orion spacecraft. And I know everyone here realizes how critical this facility and the entire federal campus, including the NASA Business Development Center and the USDA National Finance Center, are to the federal government and to our mission to explore space. And for us in Louisiana it's a source of pride. It's a major job provider, so we certainly just appreciate Michoud being there. And I want to acknowledge the fine work being done there to our country and to our space exploration. I was looking at the bios of you on the panel. It amazes me on the Space Committee, either the full committee or the subcommittee, the intellect and the knowledge base. And you guys and ladies on that panel, you give us mere mortals a bad rep. I mean, it's like, you know, it doesn't take a rocket scientist--well you guys are the rocket scientists that we are compared to. So, you know, I do have a little bit of chip on my shoulder when my wife says, ``it doesn't take a rocket scientist to change a lightbulb.'' Mr. Cabana, is there anything you haven't done, sir? I mean, I'm looking at your resume and I'm just blown away at the accomplishments, as anyone on the table. So just thanks for being here and, you know, thanks for taking care of us on the space and exploration frontier. We certainly want to continue to lead as a country, as a nation, globally. We want to certainly command space in every form and fashion. And the only question I have--and I guess it'll be to all of you and if you can just go down the line--I want to kind of pony on my good friend Mr. Lucas where we left off. What Congressional action do we need to mitigate the feast or famine that we've had in the past, better leverage the resources that you have available, the workforces? What do we need to do as a Congress to make those centers even better than you guys are? Mr. Gerstenmaier, I'll start with you and just go down the line. Mr. Gerstenmaier. Sure. I think it's important that we have consistency of purpose, right, where we kind of keep our goals and objectives at a higher level, and then that allows us to continue to keep moving progress and move forward. It's hard when we start a program and then we have to stop a program and then start another program. So if we get too specific a direction, it's difficult for us to implement under that. But I think good steady guidance, good financial support, other pieces are there---- Mr. Abraham. So no C.R.'s if we can help it. Mr. Gerstenmaier. Yes, that would be nice if that happens. But we are prepared for those. But we can--but again, I think just consistency would be very important. I think we also see this as really the ultimate team sport. You know, all of us can contribute in our own way, and each one of us has our own unique strengths. And by pulling all of us together with our diverse backgrounds, we can do amazing things. And I think we need Congressional support, we need Administration support as well, and--but we call you part of the spaceflight team. Mr. Abraham. Well, we appreciate that. Mr. Geyer? Mr. Geyer. Yes, thank you. And--so I think it's great and appropriate to be held accountable for the work that we do, and I appreciate the opportunity to respond to that and talk about the work that we are doing and on the transition report especially about putting together a well-thought-out and logical plan, giving--having the opportunity to do that and show the rationale for the future I would say is really, really important. And as Bill said, it's working together to make these come together. I would say I just want to echo what you said about Orion. You know, we found that the welding expertise in that location was world-class, and they did a terrific job on Orion and will continue to do so. Mr. Abraham. Right. Mr. Geyer. Thanks. Mr. Abraham. Ms. Singer, any comments on that? Ms. Singer. Yes, I would second that from--Michoud Assembly Facility is very near and dear to my heart. I've worked external tank for over ten years, and it is the---- Mr. Abraham. You're welcome to come over to the LSU side-- you understand that--from the Alabama side. Ms. Singer. And I would tell you, too, thank you so much for you all's bipartisan support. It makes a difference. When we have continuity of funding and continuous pressure, as Mark said, it's great for us to be held accountable, but it does make a difference in how we recruit and be able to get the next generation of folks that want to work on space and space program and exploration. Having that inspiration makes a big difference, too. Mr. Abraham. Mr. Cabana? Mr. Cabana. I think, as Mr. Gerstenmaier said, consistency in our direction, and we have that consistency in our funding. One of the things that--the program that we played out, it's sustainable and it's evolvable. It's something that doesn't need to be started over. It is the right path forward to allow us to get back in cislunar space, to get to the Moon and eventually on to Mars as we evolve, and having that continuity is going to be really important. I think continuing with the authorities that we have, especially looking at the Kennedy Space Center, what we've been able to do to commercialize the assets that we have through the Space Act Agreements, enhanced use lease, and so on is extremely important. And I know that our human resources folks are also looking at human resources initiatives that can help us better recruit and retain the workforce that we have, items such as direct hiring authority, so there are a number of things that can help us and we're looking at that. And I would also say, sir, that Senator Glenn was 77 when he flew his last flight, and I'm still holding out hope. Mr. Abraham. I think you could qualify for the physical right now. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Babin. You're welcome. Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman from Colorado, Mr. Perlmutter. Mr. Perlmutter. Thank you. I know I'm a broken record. I know you've seen this before, but I will put it up there one more time because this is a goal I think we all want to achieve, which is to get our astronauts to Mars at a time when it's relatively safer for them because of a shorter trip, less radiation, those kinds of things. And so, Mr. Gerstenmaier, you and I have had this conversation on occasion, and so I'd just like to kind of talk about where we are because I think in one of the bills that we passed last year we asked for report about a roadmap to Mars, and we have yet to see that. So I know you're not surprised by my question, and I'd just like to see where you think we are and when we're going to see the report. And I guess there's a third piece based on what I've just read. Have you all decided to make it a backseat to the Moon? Mr. Gerstenmaier. Okay. So I think, again, the report's coming. The first report we needed to get done was the Exploration Campaign, which we were late on but you got it last Friday. And I--and Mars is not a backseat to the Moon. What we see is we need to do the activities around the Moon to really prepare us to go to Mars. So this Gateway spacecraft we talk about around the Moon, it can be moved in different orbits around the Moon. It also could be the basis for a Mars spacecraft. The ascent vehicle that we will use for the lunar activity, we're going to try to size that ascent vehicle that comes off the Moon that takes the crews from the surface of the Moon to Gateway. That vehicle will be sized towards a Mars- class lander. So we're using the region around the Moon to build the skills to build the understanding, the technology that allows us to go to Mars. I don't think we're ready to go to Mars directly today. We need someplace--we need to use the space station first to build long-duration life-support systems. Those will start flying as early as this fall. There are some scheduled to fly in November, and that'll be really good on Station to see those systems come online. Then we go to the Moon, press the skills a little bit harder, and then we're ready to go to Mars. So I see the Moon---- Mr. Perlmutter. So---- Mr. Gerstenmaier. --as an enabler for Mars. Mr. Perlmutter. Good. And that--I--really was what I wanted to hear. I guess what I'd like to see in the report on the roadmap to Mars is more of a connection between what this steppingstone is in my opinion in going to the Moon and then how it relates and supports and--because I told you I'm agnostic on how you get to the--to Mars, just get there by 2033. So I felt like there needs to be more of a connection between your activities and efforts returning to the Moon and developing things there. To change the subject just a little bit, this Gateway thing, I did have a constituent of mine who is very involved in sort of space exploration, a guy named Dr. Zubrin, who you know, who had some reservations about the Gateway sort of approach. Does that give somebody in the private arena, you know, a monopoly on leases or something like that? He was much more erudite in how he expressed his concern than I just have, but are you familiar with that kind of a critique? Mr. Gerstenmaier. We've heard some of that. One key thing is we're trying to develop--we call them interoperable standards. And what those are is we have an international docking standard now, which we've said--it doesn't tell you how to build a docking device, but if you can build to the standard, you can dock any spacecraft to another spacecraft. And we're using that now on our new vehicles. We're also going to set seven other standards, atmospheric standards, power standards, data standards, rendezvous proximity operations system standards, and those will allow any spacecraft to operate with other spacecraft, so then that prevents this monopoly that you described or one of the concerns. Mr. Perlmutter. Okay. Mr. Gerstenmaier. So by having an open architecture that anyone could build to, they build to these standards, it doesn't tell them how to build the hardware, they can be interoperable with our spacecraft moving forward. And we think that's a very powerful tool that lets us now keep everyone participating in these activities so there's not a one unique spacecraft, one unique design owned by one company. It's effectively built to an open standard. Mr. Perlmutter. Thank you. And, Ms. Singer, I'll end with you. So SLS, Orion, Marshall obviously plays a very big role there. Are you comfortable that NASA is paying attention to getting to Mars? Ms. Singer. Yes, sir. I see that as a top focus of--part of our ability to be sustainable and operating in deep space. The Space Launch System is the enabling workhorse that has to be there to be able not only to support Gateway but beyond Gateway and above. So, yes, we are getting the attention. Mr. Perlmutter. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman Babin. Yes, sir. Thank you. I now recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Dunn. Mr. Dunn. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Gerstenmaier, as we ramp up the number of launches to Gateway, can you share with us your best estimate of the cost per launch? And if you need to stratify that by payload size or launch vehicle, please feel free. Mr. Gerstenmaier. Yes, if you want exact numbers---- Mr. Dunn. No, no, just a--you know, back-of-an-envelope type thing. Mr. Gerstenmaier. Yes, if you take a look at our budget, we're looking at probably, I don't know, $3 billion or so per year, but then it's balanced across with SLS being launched about once per year roughly as you see in the report, but then that's augmented by commercial launches for other things like supply, fuels, other pieces, so there are several commercial launches there. So the SLS Orion system, when crew needs to be there or large components need to be there, you uniquely use the heavy- lift government system. When the smaller things can come, they can come on other pieces. So, for example, the power propulsion element, it'll be launched on a commercial launch vehicle. So we spread that across all of them so we can get the most efficient launch system to take whatever unique cargo is needed. Mr. Dunn. So I was under the impression some of the commercial systems also are heavy launch now. My---- Mr. Gerstenmaier. They're still on the books in terms of redesign. There is no system that is as far along in manufacture and development as the SLS. It's---- Mr. Dunn. It might very well happen, though, over the course of the next four, five years---- Mr. Gerstenmaier. Sure, and if it does, then we'll figure out a way we can accommodate those in our architecture so our architecture isn't dependent upon one launch system. Mr. Dunn. So Mr. Lucas asked earlier a question that really piqued my interest, which is how do you leverage the commercial--all the interested parties of the commercial side to get them really involved in the Gateway and the lunar explorations, which are in preparation for deep space exploration? Mr. Gerstenmaier. You know, I think, again, if we can show what we need from a NASA perspective to do this and show the vision, then I think industry can start figuring out ways to contribute and move forward in that vision. We're trying to do that very much in low-Earth orbit. We're starting to see now some companies that have not done research in space, now have interest in space, which is encouraging. So I think the key thing is we can show the vision, we can show the open architecture, then it's up to the companies to figure out how they can contribute and work with us in that area. We can also share our expertise with them. You know, where we have some unique manufacturing or processing techniques and things, we can share those with industry as well to help them. Mr. Dunn. I certainly have been approached by some industries like that, and I know we had here during testimony one day a gentleman was talking about how to do the fuel resupply on the Moon based on commodities he could get from the Moon, hydrogen and whatnot, so that--I think that's possible. Also for Mr. Gerstenmaier, can you confirm that NASA does not have plans to abandon American human presence in low-Earth orbit even if the details are still unclear how that--how you-- what you're going to do? Mr. Gerstenmaier. No, our intent is to have a continuous presence in low-Earth orbit, and we're working--and our transition plan lays out the principles for that activity and we're moving forward to try to implement that. Mr. Dunn. I thank you very much. Thank you, gentlemen, and also your flight controllers for joining us today. It's always fascinating to see NASA come in and talk to us. Thank you. Chairman Babin. Thank you very much. I now recognize the gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Higgins. Mr. Higgins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, madam, thank you for appearing before us today. I'm the seventh of eight children. I have six sisters, and they join many ladies across the country for the last several decades--I would hear them occasionally say, ``If we can send one man to the Moon, why can't we send them all?'' And I join my colleagues in the goal to reach Mars by 2033. The problem could perhaps be that much of America would like to send Congress to Mars right now. Human space exploration of course is incredibly important for the future of our world. I support it; this Committee supports it. The policies have remained relatively consistent across current and prior Administrations but minute differences concerning the planned level of lunar activity prior to going to Mars has hindered term planning as we sit right now. Before I ask my question, I'd like to thank Ms. Singer specifically for being here today. The Michoud Assembly Facility managed by the Marshall Space Flight Center has consistently been an impressive and vitally important facility for the entire State of Louisiana. I've visited the facility, it's an incredible experience with some of the most professional men and women that I've ever met in my life. So we certainly support the mission that we are joined here on this Committee. My question lends to the bipartisan nature of planning. I certainly understand that different Administrations at the executive level, and as the balance of power shifts in Congress, will enact certain policy changes, but do you feel that--my directors present--do you feel that if we're able to establish a bipartisan agreement on long-term planning for human space exploration, would that not be beneficial to the space centers you operate, the mission, and potentially reduce the long-run cost and just increase overall efficiency from a planning perspective? I'd like for my directors to respond to that question, please. Mr. Geyer. Yes, I'll start. I think you said it very well. A long--having a long-term plan allows us to plan, right? It allows us to, as Jody said, look forward to the workforce that we're going to need and make those choices so that when those different milestones happen, we have the folks we need to do the job. And so I think that's a really important part of the future. Ms. Singer. And yes, I would say that sustained and continuity in human spaceflight and exploration, which includes the bipartisan support, does help us because it gives us the ability to have a vision not only for the near term but for the future to come. It also helps us to be able to inspire folks. It helps us, economic base, as well as to inspire the next generation of folks that want to work on it. So yes, definitely having that gives us a lot of vision and excitement to be able to execute. Mr. Higgins. Yes, ma'am. Mr. Cabana. And I'll agree, sir. Having the consistency of a clearly laid out vision for the future and our implementation of it, the path that we're on being--having that sustainable and consistent is critical to our success. Mr. Gerstenmaier. And I would add also that it's a really good thing. You've just got to be careful we don't get too specific in the plan because then that causes us to stop and start. So the trick is to get it at the right level that is sustainable for a long duration and it doesn't get too specific because then that drives us to make short-term decisions, which I think are problematic to us. Mr. Higgins. Yes, sir. And of course it's important that we communicate the crucial nature of the job that we do together from this Committee through Congress and through the Administration so that we can have a truly bipartisan plan that looks into the future that can transcend politics and shifts of power and changes of political affiliation at the executive branch. And if there's a committee that can make that happen, Mr. Chairman, I believe this is the one. I thank you all for being here. I yield back. Chairman Babin. Thank you very much. And now, I'd like to recognize the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Brooks. Mr. Brooks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Gerstenmaier, the controversial load-and-go procedure appears to expose NASA astronauts to unnecessary additional risk. In that vein I've got three questions. Is load-and-go an additional launch risk, question number one. Question number two: is load-and-go necessary because of performance challenges in getting to the International Space Station? And then question number three, if it's a cost-saving measure, is the added risk to astronauts appropriate to help save money? Mr. Gerstenmaier. So, again, what I think we need to do-- and we're still in the process of reviewing the exact procedure of where we put the propellant on versus when we have crew get in the vehicle, it's a function of the spacecraft design because you need to get the propellant in at the right time. The propellant needs to be at the right temperatures and pressures at the time of ignition of the engines, et cetera, so there's a balance of when that occurs. We're going to find the right time to put the crew on these vehicles that puts them in at the most--or the safest opportune time for the particular spacecraft that we're designing, and so we're going through that process right now. And I think we need to be careful how we do that and when we pick the time. In the case of SpaceX, it's interesting. If we go with the standard procedure they've laid out for us today, then we'll get to see--they're roughly flying sometimes 10 to 16 launches per year. We'll get to see the actual loading of that vehicle exactly like it's going to be when the crew is on board 16 times per year. We think that's a significant safety advantage to see that operation occur repetitively 16 times per year. If we required a unique loading operation just for our crew when they're there, then you get a one-time shot per year of how you load the vehicle with crew there, and that may actually be more risky for you than it is taking the more standard procedure. So that's kind of what our logic is behind this. We get a chance to see it multiple times to make sure that it is really reliable. The folks that are doing the loading, the software that does the loading, it gets exercised multiple times per year, and that gives us experience with that software, it's up- to-date, it's not a unique, one-of-a-kind thing. So we need to be careful we don't drive the particular loading sequence for this particular design to unique aspect that actually exposes us to more risk. And that's what the teams are doing now. They're going through that detailed discussion to figure out the right way to move forward with this with SpaceX. Mr. Brooks. Thank you, Mr. Gerstenmaier. Director Singer, the Chairman couldn't say it but I will. Roll Tide. Welcome to the Hill as Marshall Space Flight Center's Director, and congratulations. Being from the Tennessee Valley, you've made us all proud. Now, the Marshall Space Flight Center's first Director, Dr. Wernher von Braun, began his tenure in 1960 with a vision of taking humanity to the Moon. This year, as we celebrate NASA's 60th anniversary, we are once again embarking on a mission to the Moon with the intent of proving the technologies that are needed for our next celestial achievement, taking humanity to Mars. As the Marshall Space Flight Center's 14th Center Director, what is your vision for Marshall, and what technical roles do you foresee as Marshall writes its future history? Ms. Singer. Thank you so much for that question, and thank you for the nice recognition. I would say that from my vision as the Center Director of Marshall Space Flight Center, it's probably very similar to the vision that many Center Directors have. It's to--definitely to deliver on our commitments and our missions and making sure that the assignments that we do have, we're able to execute them and making sure that our infrastructure is in place to do that. I think also a key part of that is strengthening our workforce. We have a very strong workforce that I'm very proud of, but investment in our workforce and making sure they remain strong and making sure they have the adequate training and resources and our ability to hire a diverse workforce is going to be critical and--as we execute the new missions. Also, a third part of that is the criticality of our partners. I know that many of the things that we do today gives us increased flexibility, agility, and effectiveness, and I think the education of our workforce and working with our partners to make sure that we continue that partnership and our partnerships with other centers are very critical. So I see that as my top three themes. I've talked about our expertise that we have at Marshall Space Flight Center, our ability to develop and integrate large systems, our deep space transportation activities, ascent and descent, the significant adventures that we're having in advanced manufacturing not only on SLS today but on engine parts that we're seeing that we're flying, and the ability to build in space, our ECLSS that we work on to help with life that not only has to happen on International Space Station but going forward in deep space, a lot of that is what will be key contributors. So to me that is what makes our future so bright and why I'm so excited about being at Marshall Space Flight Center because I think we have an opportunity to not only work on traveling to and through space. I think we have an ability to work on living and working in space, as well as understanding our world with our science. So I look forward to a bright future, and I think it's a wonderful opportunity to be at NASA. Mr. Brooks. Thank you, Ms. Singer. And, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman Babin. Yes, sir. Thank you very much for those great questions. I just want to--I think this wraps us up. I don't see any more Democrats here, and he was the last Republican, but I just want to thank each and every one of you. I'm proud of each one of your centers and the leadership that you've given us and also, Mr. Gerstenmaier, your leadership at where you are and very proud to have you folks here telling us about our space program because I've never felt more optimistic and more excited about what's happening. And so I want to thank each one of you. The record will remain open for two weeks for additional comments and written questions from Members. And with that, if I get my gavel out here, we will adjourn. Thank you. [Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] Appendix I ---------- Answers to Post-Hearing Questions [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Appendix II ---------- Additional Material for the Record [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [all]