[House Hearing, 114 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]

COUNTERING EXTREMISM AND THE THREAT OF ISIS IN SOUTHEAST ASIA

=======================================================================

HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON ASIA AND THE PACIFIC

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS

SECOND SESSION

__________

APRIL 13, 2016

__________

Serial No. 114-160

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Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs

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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS

EDWARD R. ROYCE, California, Chairman
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida BRAD SHERMAN, California
DANA ROHRABACHER, California GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey
JOE WILSON, South Carolina GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida
TED POE, Texas BRIAN HIGGINS, New York
MATT SALMON, Arizona KAREN BASS, California
DARRELL E. ISSA, California WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina ALAN GRAYSON, Florida
MO BROOKS, Alabama AMI BERA, California
PAUL COOK, California ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California
RANDY K. WEBER SR., Texas GRACE MENG, New York
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania LOIS FRANKEL, Florida
RON DeSANTIS, Florida TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii
MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
TED S. YOHO, Florida ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
CURT CLAWSON, Florida BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania
SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee
REID J. RIBBLE, Wisconsin
DAVID A. TROTT, Michigan
LEE M. ZELDIN, New York
DANIEL DONOVAN, New York

Amy Porter, Chief of Staff Thomas Sheehy, Staff Director

Jason Steinbaum, Democratic Staff Director

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Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific

MATT SALMON, Arizona Chairman
DANA ROHRABACHER, California BRAD SHERMAN, California
STEVE CHABOT, Ohio AMI BERA, California
TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania TULSI GABBARD, Hawaii
JEFF DUNCAN, South Carolina ALAN S. LOWENTHAL, California
MO BROOKS, Alabama GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania GRACE MENG, New York
SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee

C O N T E N T S

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Page

WITNESSES

Mr. W. Patrick Murphy, Deputy Assistant Secretary, Bureau of East
Asia and the Pacific, U.S. Department of State................. 4
Marie Richards, Ph.D., Deputy Counterterrorism Coordinator for
Regional and Multilateral Affairs, Bureau of Counterterrorism,
U.S. Department of State....................................... 5
Ms. Gloria Steele, Senior Deputy Assistant Administrator, Bureau
for Asia, U.S. Agency for International Development............ 16

LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING

Mr. W. Patrick Murphy and Marie Richards, Ph.D.: Prepared
statement...................................................... 8
Ms. Gloria Steele: Prepared statement............................ 18

APPENDIX

Hearing notice................................................... 32
Hearing minutes.................................................. 33
Written responses to questions submitted for the record by
members of the subcommittee.................................... 34

COUNTERING EXTREMISM AND THE THREAT OF ISIS IN SOUTHEAST ASIA

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WEDNESDAY, APRIL 13, 2016

House of Representatives,

Subcommittee on Asia and the Pacific,

Committee on Foreign Affairs,

Washington, DC.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2 o'clock
p.m., in room 2172 Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Matt
Salmon (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. Salmon. This subcommittee will come to order. Members
present will be permitted to submit written statements to be
included in the official hearing record. Without objection, the
hearing record will remain open for 5 calendar days to allow
statements, questions, and extraneous materials for the record,
subject to the length limitation in the rules.
In recent months, violent attacks in Europe and expanding
jihadist networks in Northern Africa have provided tragic and
senseless reminders of the threat that terrorism and extremism
pose to the world. As we discuss the global fight against the
threat of terrorism, we don't first think of Southeast Asia.
But this vibrant region, home to nearly 40 percent of the
world's Muslim population, is also a crucial part of the global
war on terror. Southeast Asia captures less U.S. media
attention than other headline-grabbing flash points, but the
region's efforts to combat extremism are vital to maintaining
stability in some of the world's most successful Muslim
majority states and ultimately to protecting the security of
our homeland.
Today, we will discuss Southeast Asia's efforts to counter
the threat of violent extremism, many of them successful, as
well as possible opportunities for improvement. In this
hearing, we will focus on the Philippines, Indonesia, and
Malaysia, but Southeast Asia as a whole is at particular risk
for extremist activity.
This area is home to a large Muslim population, very porous
borders, and persistent governance challenges and development
needs. Militant Islamic separatists and terrorists have
operated in the region for decades, but the fight against such
groups has yielded some successes for the United States and our
partners.
The Southern Philippine Islands have long been home to
active Islamist separatist and terrorist organizations.
President Bush included the Philippines as part of the front
lines of the global war on terror following 9/11 and launched
an effort that helped the Filipinos significantly degrade these
groups. These are due, in large part, to joint counterterror
operations between Philippine and U.S. Armed Forces as well as
close integration between our counterterrorism and development
assistance.
The Aquino administration has also made significant
progress toward settling Islamic separatist violence in
Mindanao with the signing of the comprehensive agreement on the
Bangsamoro despite the Philippine Congress' slow progress
toward implementing the terms of the agreement.
Although the Philippines has enjoyed some success, it
continues to feel the pain of extremist activities. Eighteen
Filipino soldiers were killed earlier this week in a clash with
the Abu Sayyaf Group.
Islamist militancy has similarly been a decades-long
challenge for Indonesia. Indonesia has seen more than its share
of domestic terrorist attacks, including the horrific Bali
bombings in 2002 and several other attacks in the following
years. In response, the Government of Indonesia has built up
formidable counterterror capabilities in its military and its
police force thanks, in part, to the considerable U.S. capacity
building. It has taken great strides in countering military
recruitment by marginalizing those who advocate violence and
convincing the vast majority of Indonesians that such acts run
counter to the teachings of Islam.
However, the Muslim majority nation of 253 million people
continues to suffer tragic terrorist attacks, most recently the
bomb and gunfire attack in Jakarta in January of this year.
Observers credit the Indonesian Government, including the gift
leadership of President Jokowi for the comparatively minor
damage that the attack caused.
While Malaysia doesn't have a history of indigenous
separatists or insurgencies carrying out terrorist attacks, its
government has recognized the rising threat posed by global
Islamic radicalism and has taken significant measures to
counteract this threat. Malaysia continues to promote the
moderate practice of Islam and has shifted resources to
preventing militancy from taking root in its outlying
provinces. Malaysia also continues to step up its
counterterrorism cooperation multilaterally and bilaterally
including support from ASEAN and participation in the Global
Coalition to Counter ISIL.
We have got to ensure that the positive momentum in the
fight against extremism in Southeast Asia is not lost.
Unfortunately, these successes have been put at risk by changes
in the landscape of extremism. Most concerning is the influence
of Islamic State, its malicious and viral technology and the
internationalization of violence that it promotes. Hundreds of
Southeast Asians have joined the Islamic State's ranks in Syria
and Iraq to forge new transnational links between the Islamic
State and indigenous Southeast Asian extremists. The Islamic
State has reached out to Southeast Asians through social media
encouraging acts of violence. There is no formal Islamic State
affiliate in Southeast Asia today, but there is a threat. The
linkage of the Islamic State could empower militants and
rekindle a broader terrorist threat in the region.
As global terror and extremism evolves, our strategy must
do the same. Today, we are going to discuss how these new
challenges will affect counterterror and counter violent
extremism in the region.
I was just recently in Indonesia within the last couple of
weeks and I met with the newly-appointed Minister of
Counterterrorism, an upgrade, I guess, from being the Chief of
Police. And I can tell you that this is front and center on
their minds and they are very, very concerned about potential
calamities in addition to the ones they have already had. But I
was able to go to one of the madrasas and meet with some of the
student leaders and I was really impressed with the caliber of
these young people that I met and the fact that they stand with
us against extreme factions with Islam.
I look forward to hearing from our distinguished panel to
develop a better understanding of the administration's strategy
for this crucial aspect of U.S. foreign policy and to identify
further concerns that may need attention from the committee.
And I would like to recognize the ranking member today, Ms.
Gabbard.
Ms. Gabbard. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I
appreciate you and Ranking Member Sherman for putting together
this important hearing today and for our panelists for coming
to share their insights and their thoughts.
While the world focuses on Islamic extremist threats that
are facing countries in the Middle East and North Africa, it is
critical that we not ignore this growing threat that we are
seeing in other countries, in particular, in Southeast Asia
which speaks to why this hearing is important.
The chairman talked about Indonesia where we saw an ISIS-
linked attack in the capital of Jakarta with eight people being
killed last January. Other countries in the region, also being
very densely populated, where the concern is that continued
attacks could lead to extensive casualties as well as great
damage to those communities.
I look forward to hearing from our witnesses about what the
U.S. is doing to help stop the spread of extremism in these
countries. While it is not directly within this region, I do
also want to mention Bangladesh, a country that continues to
face growing violent jihadist problem. Last week, Nazimuddin
Samad, a secular activist, was hacked to death in Dhaka
following a horrific pattern that we have seen there now for
the last year.
A few months ago, I introduced a resolution calling on the
Government of Bangladesh to protect the rights of all of its
religious minorities including Christians, Hindus, atheists,
and others from these kinds of attacks. We must take action in
these countries while there still is a chance to prevent groups
like ISIS and their extremist ideology from growing.
Thank you very much again for being here. I look forward to
hearing from you. I yield back.
Mr. Salmon. Thank you. We are joined today by Mr. W.
Patrick Murphy, Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for
Southeast Asia in the Department of State's Bureau of East Asia
and the Pacific; Dr. Marie Richards, Deputy Counterterrorism
Coordinator for Regional and Multilateral Affairs in the
Department's Bureau of Counterterrorism; and Ms. Gloria Steele,
Senior Deputy Assistant Administrator in the U.S. Agency for
International Development's Bureau for Asia.
And we are really grateful to have all of these witnesses
today, and we look forward to learning more about what is going
on within the administration to deal with these issues and we
will first turn to Mr. Murphy.

STATEMENT OF MR. W. PATRICK MURPHY, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY,
BUREAU OF EAST ASIA AND THE PACIFIC, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

Mr. Murphy. Chairman Salmon, Ranking Member Gabbard,
distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you very much
for the opportunity to testify today on the very important and
timely issue of countering violent extremism in Southeast Asia.
I also thank the committee for its sustained support of our
broad engagement across the East Asia-Pacific region
exemplified by the chairman's recent travel. Thank you very
much for visiting us.
The United States and our partners across Southeast Asia
work together to address challenges that transcend borders,
including infectious disease, trafficking in persons, wildlife,
illicit narcotics, organized crime, and of course, terrorism.
As President Obama told his ASEAN counterparts at the
Sunnylands Summit just this February, our global
counterterrorism strategy is informed in no small part by the
successes over many years of Southeast Asian nations in
disrupting terrorist plots, arresting sympathizers of terrorist
organizations, and establishing mechanisms to counter extremist
narratives.
The January attack in Jakarta referred to by the chairman
and the ranking member and other recent attacks around the
world, however, demonstrate that terrorist organizations,
including ISIL, can support and inspire violence almost
anywhere. That is why we are building partnerships with the
countries in Southeast Asia facing the most active terrorist
threats including Indonesia, Malaysia, the Philippines and
others as well as regional organizations like ASEAN.
Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim majority
democracy, has seen success using a rule of law based approach
to counterterrorism. Government and civil society leaders have
forcibly denounced ISIL. Still, according to Indonesian
officials, there are about 300 Indonesians actively fighting in
Iraq and in Syria. While this is a small fraction of
Indonesia's 250 million plus population, the existence of such
fighters and the January 14th attack in Jakarta underscore
ISIL's ability to attract recruits and inspire violence in that
country. In response, the Indonesian Government recently
introduced legislation that would give it better tools to
counterterrorism.
Indonesia is an active member of the Global
Counterterrorism Forum. The country's active civil society
promotes the local practice of Islam as a positive and tolerant
alternative to violent extremist ideologies.
To support these efforts, we are working with Indonesia
across a range of activities including training law enforcement
and judicial sector officials, sharing information to prevent
terrorist travel, providing technical advice on prisoner
management, and supporting local counter-messaging efforts.
In Malaysia, we are also concerned about ISIL's influence,
particularly through online messaging. Since 2013, Malaysian
authorities have arrested over 175 terrorist suspects,
primarily ISIL supporters under the country's national security
legislation. Malaysia joined the Global Coalition to Counter
ISIL last September and announced that it will establish a
regional center to counter ISIL messaging. We support these
efforts and we look forward to attending the Center's opening
in the coming months.
We have also strengthened technical assistance since
Malaysian Deputy Prime Minister Zahid and Secretary of State
John Kerry signed a terrorist watch list sharing arrangement
this past October.
In the Philippines, terrorist and criminal elements such as
the Abu Sayyaf group, exploit the security environment in the
Southern Mindanao region. Although some terrorist groups have
pledged allegiance to ISIL, most are focused on criminality and
lack strong ideological motivations. We provide, train, and
equip programs to support law enforcement and military forces
in the Southern Philippines which have strengthened local
capabilities. We are also watching the stalled Mindanao peace
process which will be important for achieving a sustainable
political solution and improving the security environment for
local populations.
Finally, I highlight the excellent work that ASEAN has done
to strengthen collaboration in meeting these challenges,
including its leading role in achieving East Asia Summit
statements on ISIL in 2014 and on countering violent extremism
in 2015. We are committed to working into the future with ASEAN
on information sharing, border security and law enforcement
cooperation.
Mr. Chairman, these partnerships demonstrate the strong and
growing commitment in Southeast Asia to push back against
ISIL's hateful ideology in all forms of violent extremism. With
continued U.S. engagement, backed by congressional support, we
are confident the countries in the region will maintain a
commitment to tackling terrorism and extremism.
Thank you, and I will be happy to answer your questions.
Mr. Salmon. Thank you. Dr. Richards.

STATEMENT OF MARIE RICHARDS, PH.D., DEPUTY COUNTERTERRORISM
COORDINATOR FOR REGIONAL AND MULTILATERAL AFFAIRS, BUREAU OF
COUNTERTERRORISM, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE

Ms. Richards. Chairman Salmon, Ranking Member Gabbard,
distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you for the
opportunity to appear here today.
As you know, in the world today, we face an increasingly
dynamic, diffused, and geographically decentralized set of
terrorist threats. While the United States and our partners
have made significant progress in reducing and denying
terrorist safe havens, terrorist groups are still able to
exploit local conditions and 21st century technology to
attract, recruit, and conduct attacks. This is also true for
Southeast Asia.
Globally, since 2012, we estimate that at least 36,000
foreign terrorist fighters from more than 120 countries have
traveled to Syria and Iraq, including countries in Southeast
Asia, particularly Indonesia and Malaysia. Some of these
fighters have returned home, some are arrested, but as the
trends continue, they are a danger to their own countries. It
is clear that ISIL is inspiring terrorist activity in Southeast
Asia. As the ranking member has mentioned, ISIL claimed
responsibility via its English language online magazine Dabiq
for the tragic attack in Jakarta this past January which was
carried out by local pro-ISIS supporters.
And as the chairman has noted, our Southeast Asia partners
take this threat very seriously. The law enforcement agencies
have performed remarkably well in their efforts to arrest and
disrupt terrorist activity. As the chairman said, the Jakarta
attack could have been much deadlier if not for the
effectiveness of Indonesian authorities.
That said, as President Obama has noted, we must develop
more effective partnerships and tools to holistically address
the evolving terrorist threat environment. We use the framework
established by the U.N. Security Council Resolution 2174 which
was passed in the U.N. General Assembly in 2014, sponsored by
the United States. We use this as a framework for working with
our partners including in Southeast Asia to put in place the
fundamental reforms that will stem the flow of foreign fighters
and counter violent extremism over the longer term. These
points include: Increasing information sharing among countries;
strengthening aviation and border security; implementing or
enhancing counterterrorism legislation and supporting
prosecutions and investigations; and increasing efforts to
counter violent extremism particularly through strengthening
community partnerships.
I will give you a few examples of how we are implementing
this approach. To counter the flow of foreign terrorist
fighters to conflict zones and returning from them, we are
helping our partners strengthen their connectivity with
Interpol. Malaysia just very recently began systematically
reporting to Interpol lost and stolen travel document data. And
they recently submitted 12,000 names for lost and stolen
passports.
We are working with our Southeast Asia partners to build
justice sector capacity. So as you know, Chairman, from your
recent visit, Indonesia's improved capacity led to the
conviction of Jemaah Islamiah, founder of Abu Bakar Bashir as
well as the Bali bomb maker, Umar Patek, and they are both now
in prison.
In the Philippines, the State Department is supporting the
FBI which is assisting the Philippine Government in building
terrorist financed investigations capacity. And we have had
some success there as well. But even as we work to enhance
security capacity, we must also work to prevent support for
countering violent extremism and recruitment to violence.
So throughout Southeast Asia, we are focused on building
the capacity of locally based, civil society actors in order to
counteract terrorist recruitment. We are particularly looking
at radicalization to violence in prisons and we are just at the
beginning of this process, but we believe it is important
because many people are radicalized in prison, so we are
beginning to implement coming up with some pilot projects to
identify terrorist prisoners, to track them through and to
figure out how to remove the threat. Also, when they are
brought back into the community, how do we handle that.
I will also say in closing that overall, we strongly
believe that a whole of government, integrated, and coordinated
approach is the only way to effectively address these threats
over the longer term and our partnerships in Southeast Asia are
vitally important as you have mentioned to our collective
effort to counterterrorism globally as well as in the region.
I look forward to discussing these important issues with
you today and thank you for holding this hearing.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Murphy and Ms. Richards
follows:]
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Mr. Salmon. Thanks, Dr. Richards. Ms. Steele.

STATEMENT OF MS. GLORIA STEELE, SENIOR DEPUTY ASSISTANT
ADMINISTRATOR, BUREAU FOR ASIA, U.S. AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL
DEVELOPMENT

Ms. Steele. Chairman Salmon, Ranking Member Gabbard,
distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you very much
for the opportunity to testify on USAID's role in addressing
the drivers of violent extremism in Southeast Asia.
Around the world, violent conflict, fragility and violent
extremism pose significant threats to regional and global
security. The costs of conflict in a developmental, economic
and human sense are extraordinary. By neglecting the factors
that drive conflict, we ignore the plight of 1\1/2\ billion
people living in conflict and fragility around the world.
Knowing that violent extremists can exploit conditions of
conflict and fragility, the United States Government has
integrated the prevention and mitigation of conflict and the
promotion of resilient, democratic societies as a key part of
its defense, diplomacy and development efforts. Through this
approach, and in coordination with our host countries and other
donors, we help ensure progress in a broad range of priorities,
including eradicating extreme poverty, while advancing the
U.S.'s own security and prosperity.
At USAID, we focus on addressing the underlying socio-
economic drivers of violent conflict, fragility, and violent
extremism. Our multi-faceted approach considers host country
commitment and capacity, builds local systems and local
capacity to address the causes of violent extremism and
conflict and includes women as partners in preventing conflict
and building peace. Through analysis and monitoring, we ensure
that our programs are effectively addressing the drivers of
conflict in each unique country setting.
In the Asia-Pacific, we continue to see rapid economic
growth lifting millions of people out of poverty. At the same
time, growing inequality, weak governance--including
corruption, social marginalization and violations of human
rights are resulting in unequal access to justice and social
services, particularly for members of marginalized populations.
All of these issues can be drivers of instability and
contribute to radicalization to violence.
USAID's work to advance democracy and promote human rights
and good governance, helps to address these destabilizing
factors. We encourage governments to provide all of their
citizens with the space to engage in political processes, and
we support civil society in voicing citizens' concerns. We work
to strengthen the rule of law and government accountability in
order to reduce corruption and impunity. We also build capacity
for local governments to deliver health and education services.
The lack of such services can create opportunities for service
provision by extremist groups.
We also know that violent extremism respects no boundaries
nor is it limited to any specific ideology. In countries like
Burma and Sri Lanka, Muslims are also victims of violent
extremism. In both countries, we are promoting tolerance and
countering violence against minority, ethnic, and religious
groups by encouraging the development of a balanced media and
building civil society support for tolerant and inclusive
speech.
Next, I will provide overviews of the three Southeast Asian
countries where USAID is addressing drivers of conflict and
violent extremism.
In Indonesia, impressive democratic and economic progress
remains challenged by fragile institutions, corruption, and--as
we saw with Jakarta's January terrorist attack--the threat of
terrorism. Informed by our assessment of the drivers of violent
extremism, USAID is providing access to justice and social
services for the poor and most vulnerable, helping combat
corruption and developing the capacity of civil society and the
government to address the grievances of members of marginalized
populations. We are, in addition, fostering pluralism and
tolerance in Indonesia.
In the Philippines, despite significant economic and
development gains, a resilient democracy and a strong civil
society, the country continues to grapple with recurring
insurgencies, politically motivated violence and some remaining
terrorist organizations. Weak governance, including corruption,
and high levels of marginalization and fragmentation have made
the Autonomous Region of Muslim Mindanao particularly
vulnerable.
In line with recent assessments, USAID focuses on improving
local governments' ability to deliver social services in order
to improve their legitimacy. We also focus on fostering greater
transparency and accountability in government operations, and
on fostering stronger civic engagement among local communities.
We are helping 20,000 out-of-school youth to engage
productively in civic and economic activities.
And finally, in southern Thailand, home to one of the most
violent conflicts in the Asia-Pacific region, USAID is working
to increase trust and common understanding among conflicting
communities and in fostering religious tolerance.
Mr. Chairman, by addressing these destabilizing factors,
our development assistance is helping to lay the foundation for
security and peace for all populations in the Asia-Pacific and
also the United States.
I appreciate the opportunity to testify today and look
forward to your counsel and your questions. Thank you very
much.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Steele follows:]
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Mr. Salmon. Thank you very much. We will begin with some
questions. Southeast Asian nations have very porous borders,
making it difficult to track terrorists and challenging to
prevent the movement of terror groups. What capabilities do the
governments in Southeast Asian countries have to track foreign
terrorists who are entering their borders, domestic terrorists
moving within a country, and domestic terrorists going abroad
for training? What is the current level of information also
that is being shared between the United States and Southeast
Asia nations?
Can I start with you, Mr. Murphy?
Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is a great
question. As you experienced in Indonesia, this is an
archipelago. The same could be said for the Philippines, and
parts of Malaysia. Borders throughout the region are described
as porous, lacking in the infrastructure. So the key task from
our perspective is information sharing, both with established
international organizations among ASEAN members and across
borders.
And as we heard earlier, the President announced an
initiative on our part in February to increase information
sharing through a $2-million program working with Interpol. And
we are already seeing results, particularly in Malaysia. I
can't underestimate the success of a program that automatically
updates data on a daily basis to capture those last passports
and identification materials.
We are also collaborating on a bilateral basis with these
countries to improve information sharing and through our
training programs, whether it is through my colleague's Bureau
of Counterterrorism, through our anti-terrorism assistance
programs, how can we improve local law enforcement
capabilities, border controls, immigration standards, etcetera.
And we are starting to see success. There is room for
improvement and you have identified, in particular, the
challenge with the geography of this region.
Mr. Salmon. Dr. Richards, did you want to comment also?
Ms. Richards. Yes, thank you. Thank you for the question
which is absolutely essential to what we are trying to do,
particularly on stopping the flow of foreign fighters, but also
in preventing safe havens that could protect all sorts of
terrorists.
We have sponsored a number of regional training
opportunities so that countries can come together and talk
about their problems and how to work together. But I would like
to highlight that we recently sent our special advisor for
foreign terrorist fighters, Ambassador Jake Wallace, out to
Indonesia and Malaysia to talk about the full range of
improvements they might make to their own homeland security
system, how we can work together, how we can implement things
like this Interpol initiative. So we are working very closely
with the governments, talking to them frequently to identify
their gaps. This is in coordination with the DHS, Department of
Homeland Security, here, and with the NCTC which, of course,
looks at the threat information and can focus for where the
threat is.
Mr. Salmon. That kind of segues to my next question because
the United States and Australia have contributed extensive
assistance to the development of Indonesia's elite counter
terrorism unit, Detachment 88. How do you assess the track
record of Detachment 88? And how can the United States further
assist this unit? Is it successful enough that we could try to
duplicate it in other countries? And do you believe that
Indonesia's counterterrorism efforts and particularly
Detachment 88 have demonstrated sufficient regard for human
rights and legal processes. Mr. Murphy?
Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The success of
Detachment 88 is quite symbolic of the approach that Indonesia
is taking to tackle the terrorism challenge. This is a civilian
led, rule of law based approach. And this reflects a real
transition in the way countries are tackling the challenge. And
with our help and contributions, Detachment 88 is a
specialized, effective, police entity to tackle
counterterrorism and it has produced many arrests, successful
prosecutions; I think even more importantly the thwarting of
attacks and threats before they materialize. And so it is
something for others to take note of and we are very pleased
with the success and want to encourage more like it.
Mr. Salmon. So what can we do to maybe--maybe not exact
duplicates, but similar approaches in other countries or would
that be productive?
Mr. Murphy. Well, to some degree, I think, Mr. Chairman, we
are seeing similar approaches in other countries, particularly
this model of emphasizing a rule of law based approach to
counterterrorism, empowering civilian-led agencies to have the
lead to coordinate across agencies, much like we do here in the
United States. This is proving to be more effective. And
Detachment 88, as I noted before having succeeded with numerous
arrests, and in the case of the January attack that several of
you cited, it could have been much worse. Deeply tragic, the
loss of life, in particular, the four civilians, but I think
many analysts see that it could have been much worse. This is
the success of this rule of law based approach that Indonesia
has been taking.
Mr. Salmon. Well, my time has expired. So I will turn to
Representative Gabbard.
Ms. Gabbard. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, we have
heard numbers, estimated numbers, in particular, coming from
Europe with regards to the numbers of foreign fighters who
leave that region and go to places like Syria and Iraq to
fight. Do you have similar estimates for Southeast Asia along
those same lines?
Ms. Richards. We have a few numbers in there, included in
the written testimony. Essentially, we have seen about 300
foreign fighters going to Indonesia. They bring their families
so the actual number is higher, and a smaller number from
Malaysia, about 75. This is, of course, Indonesia is an
enormous country, so per capita it is a relatively small number
and much smaller than some European countries and particularly
some North African countries. But one person or one small group
of people can cause a lot of damage. So although the numbers
are relatively small, we take them very seriously.
Ms. Gabbard. Dr. Richards, you talked about radicalization
in prisons which I think is an important area that hasn't often
been addressed when looking at this issue. And I wonder if you
can speak in a little bit more detail about the pilot projects
that you are looking at, if you have seen places where you have
gotten best practices or lessons learned and I am interested to
hear a little bit more about what you are looking at and what
these different countries are looking at.
Ms. Richards. Yes, I would be happy to. I will mention that
I was in Australia last--about 6 months ago, I think, for a
working group meeting of the Global Counterterrorism Forum
which was mentioned here which Australia leads this working
group, together with Indonesia, specifically on the question of
deradicalization and reintegration. So we had representatives
from a number of Southeast Asian countries. I happened to sit
at a table with a Filipino prison official, but also from
African countries and some other countries which face this
threat. It is very dependent on the capacity of these
countries, frankly.
In many of these countries, the prisons are overcrowded.
There have traditionally not been ways of separating out
prisoners. They don't have the capacity to provide real
training, job employment prospects. They don't traditionally
follow people after their release from prison and reintegrate
into the society.
So the countries are working together and we are working
very closely with them. We have identified best practices that
would work within their societies, given their means. And this
is has not being proposed as an action plan. We are doing
trainings, the GCTF is doing trainings.
In addition, the United States sponsors a Department of
Justice specialist, prison specialist in Indonesia, who has
been working intensively with the Indonesian prison officials,
as I said, starting with a fairly small population, but to
provide a model for how we can--they can identify these
prisoners and gradually, ideally deradicalize them, but at
least keep them from radicalizing within the prison community.
Ms. Gabbard. You mentioned some of the lack of resources in
tracking or following people when they leave. With the
relatively small number of foreign fighters who leave and then
come back to whether it is Indonesia or Malaysia, are they--do
they have the resources and are they tracking and identifying
who these individuals are?
Ms. Richards. In the case of foreign fighters, I am not
sure there is a problem. In the case of Malaysia, for example,
they have arrested all the foreign fighters they have
identified who came back. It is eight of them. And they are all
in prison.
We are more concerned about some of the terrorists who have
been in prison for a while, particularly the Bali bomber
terrorists who are due to be released. In fact, their on-going
release is now. So we, as the United States, and also the
Indonesian Government, the Australian Government, throughout
the region, they are very concerned about what these people
could do when they are on the outside.
Ms. Gabbard. You mentioned the 300 though from Indonesia,
for example.
Ms. Richards. Yes, the 300 went. Sixty have been stopped.
They have been stopped through this kind of information
sharing. Obviously, these are rough numbers and there may be
some out there that we are not aware of. But the problem is
more a long-term problem that we see as with many of these
issues.
Ms. Gabbard. Thank you. And Mr. Murphy, I think you spoke
about the online messaging issue and a counter online messaging
initiative that is being implemented. Can you speak about this
and how they have seen where it has worked and what they are
modeling this after?
Mr. Murphy. Yes, thank you, Congresswoman. Online messaging
is one of those tools that ISIL has used to some effect in
Southeast Asia with its messages of falsehoods, of
mischaracterizing Islam and supposed threats against Islam.
Ms. Gabbard. This is something that we see here, as well.
Mr. Murphy. That is correct. It is a global challenge. So
Southeast Asia is not immune from it. The countries that we
partner with in this region understand that very, very well.
Malaysia, with its stepped-up cooperation with the
international community initiated on its own a messaging center
that will have regional reach. They plan to stand that up in
the coming months in Kuala Lumpur and we look forward to being
there, being there and supporting this process. It takes a lot
of work to counter the messaging and it has to be from our
perspective a local effort. That can't be done from the United
States or elsewhere. We have good partners, not just in
government, but in civil society. I will give you an example,
Congresswoman. In Indonesia, two of the largest Islamic civil
society organizations in the world are located there and are
some of the most vocal voices when it comes to condemning ISIL
and the message of hatred. Those are the kind of partners we
are looking at empowering, working with to help with this
counter messaging kind of effort.
Ms. Gabbard. Yes, Dr. Richards.
Ms. Richards. Congresswoman, I just want to take a very
short moment to address your comment on Bangladesh because we
completely agree with you. The State Department will be sending
a high-level team out to Bangladesh next month to consult with
them on what their problem is and how we can help them and we
are doing quite a lot in Bangladesh. We can discuss separately.
Ms. Gabbard. Thank you. I appreciate you mentioning that.
Thanks.
Mr. Salmon. Thank you. Mr. Rohrabacher.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I
appreciate you taking the time and effort to make sure that
this hearing happened today on a very significant issue. I
remember that back in 2001, the first real attack that I heard
of after 9/11 happened in Bali where--and I happen to represent
Surf City USA, Huntington Beach, and we took that very
seriously, where just a group of surfers who were frankly
enjoying themselves in the evening at one of their local bars,
it was blown up and these are people who were no threat to
anyone which indicated that we were, the world, when you
combine that with what happened on 9/11, that the world was
into a new challenge that we have faced and the good people of
the world.
I will have to say that there is some skepticism on the
part of some of us as to the way the administration is handling
this unique challenge that we face. And I will say there are
hints of that today, although let me just say that I have no
doubt that each one of you are doing the very best job you can
and I am grateful for it. I have three children who I want to
live in a safer world. But I think that quite often this
administration is mistaking the fight against radical Islamic
terrorists, by the way a phrase which I have to note doesn't
seem to be able to be spoken not only by our President, but
even by the witnesses who come to Congress. I never heard that
radical Islamic terrorism or just even Islamic terrorism.
Instead, I hear about violent extremists as if we are not
talking about Islamic terrorists at all. We are talking about
extremists, whoever they are. No, what has happened is radical
Islamic terrorists have declared war on the United States and
on Western civilization, meaning our allies in this world. And
I am sorry that you can't use those words because it takes away
from the confidence that we could have in your efforts.
And in the fact that that seems to be something that
indicates something, that it would be in my mind that you are
taking a law-enforcement approach versus a counterterrorism
approach. And law enforcement is a great deal different than
counterterrorism. Law enforcement is that you basically will
try to find out who has committed a crime and punish them for
it and maybe to go out and to find out who is in a gang and try
to get a message as you have described, and messages from
people in Indonesia who are speaking out, Muslims are speaking
out against this terrorism. But counterterrorism is you are
dealing with monsters who kill innocent women and children,
target them in order to terrorize a population. It is different
than law enforcement. Totally different--not totally, but major
differences in those approaches.
Let me ask you specifically, and again, I am afraid this
administration and what I have heard today does not sway me
from my apprehension that there is a problem there in the
definition of what we are trying to do and the definition of
who we are trying to get to or who we are trying to eliminate.
Because we are not trying to eliminate violent extremists. That
is not what is attacking our families and people throughout the
world. It is radical Islamic terrorists.
Let me ask you about the Philippines, which I have spent a
great deal of time in over the years. I understand there was
recently an Abu Sayyaf terrorist attack in the Philippines. Is
that correct? Can you give me some details on that?
Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Congressman. Indeed, a subunit, a
splinter group of the ASG was involved in a conflict with
Filipino security forces over the weekend. We understand this
cost the lives of several dozen Filipino security force members
and we express our deepest condolences. This kind of violence,
kind of conflict, costs real in terms of human lives and local
security.
However, it does not diminish the fact that the Philippines
has had success in recent years in degrading the capabilities
of this particular group. Small numbers are left. They are a
threat. The Philippines is taking it very seriously, but
achieving success.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Yes, we had a special forces team there
for a number of years and they did a great job. And let me also
note the State Department is focused on that part of the
Philippines and has done a good job as well. And we should
remember that Ramzi Yousef, after planning the first terrorist
attack on the World Trade Center, where he ended up. He ended
up in the Philippines and he was there--I am still trying to
find evidence that was in some way associated with the Abu
Sayyaf terrorist network and other people who are affiliated
with that.
This is a major threat in the world today. This region is
not immune. It could get a lot worse. I have reports that the
situation in Mindanao is a lot worse than those of us who have
been watching and believed it to be. So I look forward to
working with you, as well as with our chairman, to make sure we
all do our best to defeat the radical Islamic terrorists who
want to murder us. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Salmon. If you don't mind, I would like to ask one more
question. I mentioned that when I was over there I visited one
of the madrasas. I think when a lot of my constituents hear the
term madrasa, they conjure up something in their mind because
some of these madrasas in the Middle East have been used for
recruiting purposes and indoctrinating purposes. But I learned
while I was there that the term madrasa just means boarding
school. That is the term that they use and it is a very typical
way of educating the children.
You mentioned, Mr. Murphy, that you are very concerned
about the radicalization, the recruiting that happens in
prison. Are you concerned about that possibly happening in some
of the schools? And how well do you think these governments are
doing at dealing with those threats as well?
Mr. Murphy. Mr. Chairman, I will again thank you for
leading a delegation out to Indonesia and would encourage all
members of the committee to visit Southeast Asia. Our embassies
and consulates will take good care of you and you can see first
hand our engagement across the board in Southeast Asia which is
really----
Mr. Salmon. If I could just say, the folks in our embassy
there were second to none. They were amazing, really, really
talented, wonderful individuals and I couldn't be prouder. But
every time I go across the world and I visit an embassy, I
always feel the same. I think that they are the brightest and
the best that we have to offer in our society and I really
appreciate the great work that they do.
Mr. Murphy. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will carry that
message directly to Jakarta in a week and a half when I will be
with our Ambassador Blake and his team. Thank you very much for
that.
You know, you have identified one of the issues that we
watch very closely and that is what are the vulnerabilities to
extremism? And what are the drivers? And there are a whole host
and my colleagues can speak to that as well in terms of social
inequities, economic opportunities. For some, it might be
religious related. I think the important thing to look at from
the U.S. perspective is our whole of government broad approach
to Southeast Asia, our rebalance to Asia under this
administration, but our engagement in so many different areas.
Youth is one of them, youth and education. We have a young,
Southeast Asia leadership initiative, YSEALI, that has been
enormously successful in drawing over 50,000 Southeast Asian
youth to partner with our missions, with our President, to
engage in a whole host of opportunities, innovation,
technology, education exchanges. These are the future leaders
of the region and the youth hold a lot of promise.
I don't think we see any particular vulnerabilities in
religious faith-based schools and education institutions, but
we do see a very broad need for local governments, local
entities to message very carefully to counter the false
messaging that is coming from ISIL. And schools and youth would
be no exception.
Mr. Salmon. Thank you. Representative Gabbard, did you have
another question? No. Well, thank you very, very much. This has
been very, very helpful. We appreciate you coming and sharing
what the administration is doing in Southeast Asia about global
terrorism. So thank you very much. We appreciate it and without
further ado, this meeting is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:08 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]

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