[House Hearing, 114 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] FINANCIAL SERVICES AND GENERAL GOVERNMENT APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2016 _______________________________________________________________________ HEARINGS BEFORE A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION ________________________ SUBCOMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES AND GENERAL GOVERNMENT APPROPRIATIONS ANDER CRENSHAW, Florida, Chairman TOM GRAVES, Georgia JOSE E. SERRANO, New York KEVIN YODER, Kansas MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois STEVE WOMACK, Arkansas CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania JAIME HERRERA BEUTLER, Washington SANFORD D. BISHOP, Jr., Georgia MARK E. AMODEI, Nevada E. SCOTT RIGELL, Virginia NOTE: Under Committee Rules, Mr. Rogers, as Chairman of the Full Committee, and Mrs. Lowey, as Ranking Minority Member of the Full Committee, are authorized to sit as Members of all Subcommittees. Winnie Chang, Kelly Hitchcock, Ariana Sarar, and Amy Cushing, Subcommittee Staff ______________________ PART 7 Page Consumer Product Safety Commission.... 1 Federal Communications Commission..... 81 Securities and Exchange Commission.... 183 Statements for the Record............. 271 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] ___________________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Appropriations PART 7--FINANCIAL SERVICES AND GENERAL GOVERNMENT APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2016 FINANCIAL SERVICES AND GENERAL GOVERNMENT APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2016 _______________________________________________________________________ HEARINGS BEFORE A SUBCOMMITTEE OF THE COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION ____________ SUBCOMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES AND GENERAL GOVERNMENT APPROPRIATIONS ANDER CRENSHAW, Florida, Chairman TOM GRAVES, Georgia JOSE E. SERRANO, New York KEVIN YODER, Kansas MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois STEVE WOMACK, Arkansas CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania JAIME HERRERA BEUTLER, Washington SANFORD D. BISHOP, Jr., Georgia MARK E. AMODEI, Nevada E. SCOTT RIGELL, Virginia NOTE: Under Committee Rules, Mr. Rogers, as Chairman of the Full Committee, and Mrs. Lowey, as Ranking Minority Member of the Full Committee, are authorized to sit as Members of all Subcommittees. Winnie Chang, Kelly Hitchcock, Ariana Sarar, and Amy Cushing, Subcommittee Staff _____________________ PART 7 Page Consumer Product Safety Commission... 1 Federal Communications Commission..... 81 Securities and Exchange Commission.... 183 Statements for the Record............. 271 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] ______________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 97-181 WASHINGTON : 2015 COMMITTEE ON APPROPRIATIONS ---------- HAROLD ROGERS, Kentucky, Chairman RODNEY P. FRELINGHUYSEN, New Jersey NITA M. LOWEY, New York ROBERT B. ADERHOLT, Alabama MARCY KAPTUR, Ohio KAY GRANGER, Texas PETER J. VISCLOSKY, Indiana MICHAEL K. SIMPSON, Idaho JOSE E. SERRANO, New York JOHN ABNEY CULBERSON, Texas ROSA L. DeLAURO, Connecticut ANDER CRENSHAW, Florida DAVID E. PRICE, North Carolina JOHN R. CARTER, Texas LUCILLE ROYBAL-ALLARD, California KEN CALVERT, California SAM FARR, California TOM COLE, Oklahoma CHAKA FATTAH, Pennsylvania MARIO DIAZ-BALART, Florida SANFORD D. BISHOP, Jr., Georgia CHARLES W. DENT, Pennsylvania BARBARA LEE, California TOM GRAVES, Georgia MICHAEL M. HONDA, California KEVIN YODER, Kansas BETTY McCOLLUM, Minnesota STEVE WOMACK, Arkansas STEVE ISRAEL, New York JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska TIM RYAN, Ohio THOMAS J. ROONEY, Florida C. A. DUTCH RUPPERSBERGER, Maryland CHARLES J. FLEISCHMANN, Tennessee DEBBIE WASSERMAN SCHULTZ, Florida JAIME HERRERA BEUTLER, Washington HENRY CUELLAR, Texas DAVID P. JOYCE, Ohio CHELLIE PINGREE, Maine DAVID G. VALADAO, California MIKE QUIGLEY, Illinois ANDY HARRIS, Maryland DEREK KILMER, Washington MARTHA ROBY, Alabama MARK E. AMODEI, Nevada CHRIS STEWART, Utah E. SCOTT RIGELL, Virginia DAVID W. JOLLY, Florida DAVID YOUNG, Iowa EVAN H. JENKINS, West Virginia STEVEN M. PALAZZO, Mississippi William E. Smith, Clerk and Staff Director (ii) FINANCIAL SERVICES AND GENERAL GOVERNMENT APPROPRIATIONS FOR 2016 ---------- Thursday, March 19, 2015. CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION WITNESSES HON. ELLIOT F. KAYE, CHAIRMAN, CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION HON. ANN MARIE BUERKLE, COMMISSIONER, CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION Mr. Crenshaw. This hearing will come to order. Just to let everyone know, we are probably going to have a vote sometime between 11:30 and a quarter to 12:00. Let's get started on time. We will have time for the testimony and a few questions. We will see what happens. But just let me say that I want to welcome our witnesses, Chairman Kaye and Commissioner Buerkle. Chairman Kaye, you were only sworn in, I guess, late last summer. However, you have been with the Commission for some time now, and we appreciate your institutional knowledge as chairman. And, Commissioner Buerkle, we welcome you back to Capitol Hill. Ms. Buerkle. Thank you. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you both for being here today and testifying on the Consumer Product Safety Commission's fiscal year 2016 budget request. The Commission has the daunting task of overseeing tens of thousands of consumer products. These products are used daily by all of us, and it is important that the Commission lives up to its mission of protecting consumers from unsafe products, while at the same time ensuring that American businesses and manufacturers are not adversely impacted by unnecessary, onerous rules and regulations. The President's fiscal year 2016 budget request for the Consumer Product Safety Commission totals $129 million. That is a $6 million increase over 2015. The request includes $5 million for a nanotechnology research center. I am very interested to learn more about this initiative. Additionally, the request includes $17 million in funding for the Import Surveillance pilot program that has had some good success. However, I am concerned with the Commission's request to collect a fee from importers in an effort to expand the program. So I look forward to your testimony here today justifying the fee, but as well as for the outreach the Commission has done with those involved in the global trade. In the fiscal year 2015 omnibus this subcommittee included $1 million for third-party test burden reductions, as we are concerned that the Commission is not dedicating the appropriate resources to this congressionally-mandated priority. I look forward to hearing your testimony today on how the Commission is implementing this mandate, and work you have done to reduce the significant third-party testing burdens. And finally, I am interested in learning more about how the Commission works with all the stakeholders. The success of the U.S. regulatory system for protecting consumers and minimizing product hazards relies heavily on a cooperative relationship between the Commission and all of the affected stakeholders. Chairman Kaye, you have said one of your top priorities when it comes to rulemaking will be addressing public safety hazards. So I am interested to hear your testimony on outreach to stakeholders so that the Commission can get the rules done right instead of wasting your time and our time and resources in litigation and lawsuits. So once again, welcome to both of you. I look forward to your testimony. I would like now to recognize my distinguished ranking member and friend, Mr. Serrano. Mr. Serrano. I noticed the hesitation after distinguished. Mr. Crenshaw. I didn't know if you are a distinguished friend or a distinguished ranking member. I think you are both. Mr. Serrano. Friend. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would also like to welcome Consumer Product Safety Commission Chairman Elliot F. Kaye and Commissioner Ann Marie Buerkle, who also happens to be my former colleague from the New York State delegation. I thank you both for making the time to be here today. It has been several years since the CPSC has had a hearing before the committee, and I am glad to have the opportunity to discuss with you all of the fiscal year 2016 budget requests and other issues of great importance to consumers. The CPSC has an important role to play in protecting consumers. It is responsible for ensuring that products for sale on the domestic market pose no safety hazards or threats to American consumers. Without CPSC's supervision the American market would be overrun by products that could cause significant deaths, injuries, and safety threats to consumers. Providing adequate funding to this agency should be a high priority for this Congress or any other Congress. The agency has made significant advances over the past several decades. Families and individuals have been spared great harm as a result of the agency's work to recall household products, such as toys, baby products, and household cleaners, which are found to be defective and dangerous. This work cannot be accomplished without the staff that the agency employs. Unfortunately, employment within the agency has steadily declined over the past 30 years. It seems that budget constraints have impacted employment rates. The decrease in employment is particularly troubling to me as more and more products enter the market each year. I am especially concerned with the agency's ability to continue to provide consumers with necessary safety information and regulate new products in the growing market. The agency seeks to expand its research and development in the area of nanotechnology in this year's budget. Nanotechnology is being used to develop products from backpacks to toothbrushes. The government spends more than $1.5 billion per year on nanotechnology research and development, including such things as military and material applications at agencies such as DOD, Energy, and EPA, but spends about one-tenth of 1 percent or $2 million annually at the CPSC to understand the safety implications of consumer products, including children's products that utilize this technology. In the interest of getting the agency ahead of the curve rather than behind it, I believe Congress should consider supporting more funding for this area. I would also like to express my concern for the need to increase the agency's presence at our borders. In the past few years alone we have seen Chinese products come onto the U.S. market that have been defective and dangerous for American consumers. It is imperative that taxpayer dollars are used to hire and train personnel who can work in conjunction with the U.S. Customs and Border Protection to make certain that defective products do not make it into our homes. As a parent, a grandfather, and a consumer, I wholly support the work of the Consumer Product Safety Commission. I look forward to discussing these and other issues with you. And I must say, Mr. Chairman, that this agency doesn't get the attention from Congress that it should, and I don't mean just in funding. A lot of people don't pay attention to it. And yet it is probably one of those agencies that sets us apart from the rest of the world, that we actually care about the quality of our products and how they affect our children and affect ourselves and affect the whole country. Thank you. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. And that is why we are having this hearing today. So, Chairman Kaye, we would like to recognize you for an opening statement. If you could keep that within the 5-minute framework we will have more time for questions. The floor is yours. Mr. Kaye. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good morning, Chairman Crenshaw, Ranking Member Serrano, and the members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the invitation to come speak about the work of the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission and our budget for fiscal year 2016. I am also pleased to appear alongside my friend and colleague Commissioner Ann Marie Buerkle, who brings great leadership to many issues, especially our efforts to reduce testing costs while assuring compliance with the law. CPSC's vital health and safety mission touches everyone in some way, each and every day. From the parent of the baby who gently moves his or her child throughout the day from crib, to baby bouncer, to stroller, and back to crib; or the self- employed millennial who on a cold winter day relies on a space heater to stay warm and an extension cord to power a computer; to the baby boomer who purchased adult bed rails to help care for an aging parent moving in, the products in the CPSC's jurisdiction are inseparable from our daily lives. We believe we provide an excellent return on investment for the American people. We run a lean operation, especially considering the thousands of different products in our jurisdiction, and we cover them all with a budget in the millions, not the billions. We are very appreciative of the continued bipartisan support for the Commission and our work. We saw the support in the overwhelming, nearly unanimous passage of the Consumer Product Safety Improvement Act of 2008, and we see it here in the appropriation levels the Congress has provided. These levels have allowed our dedicated staff to drive standards development to make children's products safer, to increase our enforcement effectiveness, and to better educate consumers about product-related hazards. Our proposed budget reflects our continuing efforts to carry out and enforce CPSIA-driven enhancements to consumer product safety. Unfortunately, not all of those priorities and requirements are achievable at our current levels. For that reason, we were pleased to see the President include in his budget two important consumer product safety initiatives. Both initiatives, if funded, will advance consumer safety and at the same time provide real value to those in industry making or importing safe products. First, we are seeking a permanent funding mechanism to fully achieve the intent of and direction in CPSIA Section 222. Section 222 calls upon the Commission to develop a Risk Assessment Methodology to identify likely violative imported consumer products. In 2011, we created a small-scale pilot that has been a success. However, the pilot alone does not fulfill the mission and direction and vision of Congress and without full implementation we will not be able to sufficiently integrate CPSC into the much larger United States Government- wide effort to create a single window for import and export filing of all products. If the CPSC can be fully integrated into the single window, we can transform Congress' vision of a national scope, risk- based, data-driven screening at the ports into a reality, a reality that will mean safer products in the hands of American consumers and faster entry for importers of compliant products. Our proposed budget also includes increased funding to address critical emerging health and safety questions associated with the exploding use in consumer products of nanomaterials. These materials offer many benefits. However, there has been a significant lag in assessing possible health effects of human exposure to nanomaterials in consumer products, especially to vulnerable populations, such as our children. In light of the questions raised in the scientific community about the effect that certain nanoparticles might have on human lungs, concerns that center on identified similarities to asbestos exposure, we are seeking to significantly advance the state of the science as it relates to human exposure from consumer products with nano. In the absence of CPSC driving this work, it will not be done by any other federal agency. All involved, companies already using the nanomaterials in the products they make and parents whose children are already using these products, deserve to know sooner rather than later the answers to the health questions posed. Finally, I would like to discuss an additional priority of mine, one that is not reflected in dollars but to me at least makes a lot of sense. How we at the CPSC do what we do is often as important as what we do. Since day one in this position I have worked daily to try to establish a certain culture among the five of us at the Commission level. The Commission, and more importantly, the American public, are far better served by an agency where we operate in a culture of civility, collaboration, and constructive dialogue. Of course for this to happen it requires a commitment by all five of us. I am pleased to say that any observer of our public meetings would agree that such a positive and productive culture exists at the CPSC. There is no doubt we have policy differences, but we discuss them with respect and stay focused on merit-based policymaking. Thank you again for the invitation to speak to you about the CPSC and the lifesaving work undertaken by our staff, and I look forward to answering any questions you may have. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you very much. [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Crenshaw. Now, Commissioner Buerkle, you are recognized. Ms. Buerkle. Thank you very much. Chairman Crenshaw, Ranking Member Serrano, thank you for holding today's hearing on the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission's fiscal year 2016 budget and for giving me the opportunity to provide testimony to the subcommittee. I had the honor of serving alongside the subcommittee's distinguished members in the 112th Congress, and it is good to be back on Capitol Hill in my capacity as a Commissioner at the Consumer Product Safety Commission. I hope that today's hearing will renew our relationship of working together to keep America's consumers safe from unreasonable risk of injury or harm. I want to take a moment to acknowledge CPSC Chair Elliot Kaye. While we may differ significantly on the policy issues, the tone he has set at the agency is one of collegiality and mutual respect. I believe that such an environment really allows for real debate and discussion of the issues rather than partisan arguments. I have been a Commissioner at the agency since July of 2013, and what continues to impress me is the dedication of the CPSC staff. They take our mission of safety very seriously. Equally, I have been impressed by the cooperation and the efforts made by the regulated community to advance safety initiatives, as well as to comply with our regulations. As a federal agency we are stewards of the American taxpayer's dollars and we must ensure that the regulations we promulgate are reasonable, balanced, and truly address a safety issue. CPSC accounts for only a relatively small amount of our Nation's spending, but we have a very significant regulatory impact on the economy. Today our national debt exceeds $18 trillion. Yet, the President is proposing a $4 trillion spending plan for 2016 on top of our debt, and I think that this number is equally as staggering, the federal regulatory state in the United States costs our economy an estimated $1.86 trillion annually, which is more than the GDP of Canada. Regulations are a necessary part of government, but I believe that the CPSIA has forced too much regulation without regard to risk, let alone cost-benefit. As a result, we are unnecessarily burdening businesses, especially our small businesses. I did not support the Commission's 2016 overall budget request of $129 million, in part because it calls for a $6 million increase over current funding levels and an $11 million increase over what this subcommittee appropriated in 2015. The intended use of the funds is also of concern to me. In 2011 Congress directed the CPSC to explore ways to reduce costs associated with third-party testing. To date, the Commission has done very little to approve actual burden-reduction ideas. I am grateful to this committee and to the House for including the $1 million for burden reduction in our 2015 appropriation, and I hope that our agency will spend the money wisely. I am disappointed that the President's budget request did not follow your lead in funding burden reduction. Test burden reduction and safety are not mutually exclusive, and I think that burden reduction must be a part of our operations at CPSC. One of the most challenging things for anyone to do is prioritize scarce resources, whether it is a hard-working family sitting around their kitchen table or the leadership of a regulatory agency. However, in this climate of a weak economic recovery, we all must make tough choices to be fiscal responsible while remaining true to our mission. With that in mind, I am also concerned that CPSC may be spreading itself too thin. The agency has clearly identified import safety as a major priority. We got a significant boost for that program in our 2015 appropriation, and I would like to see our agency focus on that issue before we expand efforts elsewhere. CPSC should become more collaborative, not only with consumers and consumer groups, but also with manufacturers and the regulated community. The agency should spend more of its resources on education and outreach, educating consumers about potential hazards, as well as informing the industry about how to comply with our law and regulations. I urge greater collaboration with the regulated community by placing greater emphasis on voluntary standards rather than mandatory standards. We should seek out where we can build public-private partnerships to achieve our common goal of safety. Rule review must be a greater priority for CPSC so we can better understand what regulations are effective and which ones are not. Doing this will allow us to ensure that the rules we have promulgated are meaningful, and more importantly, actually improve safety. Rules that are not working or are no longer necessary must be amended or should be repealed. The common goal for all of us, Congress, CPSC, industry, and consumers, is safety. We are all people who have families for whom we want safe products. I have 6 children and 16 grandchildren, and I do not want dangerous products hurting them or any American. But the United States Government cannot and should not try to establish a zero-risk society. We must find a balance that keeps people safe from unreasonable harms and risks, with solutions that actually address a problem so that the regulated community is not unnecessarily burdened. We must do so in a way that spends the American people's tax dollars efficiently and effectively. Thank you very much for the time to be here today, and I look forward to answering any questions you might have. Mr. Crenshaw. Well, thank you very much. [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Crenshaw. Let me just start. And, again, we are probably going to be voting before too long, but I think we will have a chance to get a few questions in. And I want to start with this import surveillance. As I understand it, you are proposing to expand the program that you have now through I guess a fee, and there is some concern that that has an impact on international trade, things like that. Now, can you tell us what you are doing to make sure you are not going to duplicate any other efforts? Are you talking to the stakeholders involved? Are you going to form an advisory committee? How do you propose to put that in place and make sure you are not doing something that is already being done? Mr. Kaye. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the question. Yes, absolutely. We have gone through all of those steps, one, to make sure we are not duplicating any other effort by any other Federal agency. And from our perspective, we look at the post-9/11 era when Congress looked to the border agencies, there are 47 agencies that have a presence at the border, and to seek a way for those agencies not only to be better at what they do to screen items that are coming in, but to coordinate and collaborate better to make sure that the United States Government is talking and then talking back to the trade. And it is something the trade has been seeking. And so in the SAFE Port Act of 2006 the Congress required the agencies to go online and require e-filings through the International Trade Data System, ITDS, which is a Customs- related entity, as well as with Treasury, and also to do it through the Automated Commercial Environment, the ACE system that Customs runs. What changed everything was the President's executive order from a year ago February where it significantly accelerated the timeline to get all of these agencies into the single-window system that I referenced in my testimony. And so what the CPSC is trying to do is to play its part. We have been identified as one of the 14 key border agencies by the Department of Homeland Security and Customs and Border Protection as being a necessary entity to have the capability to participate in that single- window effort. And the vision of that single window is that if a trade entity is bringing in compliant products, they will move through much more quickly and the government will be able to focus its efforts on those parties that are not following the rules. And so everything we have done to try to implement our RAM system, both our pilot that you and I referenced in both of our testimonies, as well as the full-scale version that we are seeking, is consistent with that effort. And we also, to your question about advisory groups, we did set up through the Department of Commerce and Customs, they have a Commercial Operations Advisory Committee, we set up a special subcommittee on consumer products where we are engaging all the key, relevant members of the trade to make sure we get this right. All of the agencies that are participating in the single window are creating pilots to try to test the system so that when it goes live at the end of the year, at least the initial part of it, it has been stress tested and we can see that it works. And we are doing one of the pilots, and we had a webinar last week. Every 2 weeks we are having these sessions with this Advisory Committee to make sure that as we do our pilot and as we take other steps to try to get online with the single window that we will have gotten it right. But the key to that is we do not currently have the funding mechanism to be able to join that single window and to deliver our part of moving compliant trade more quickly through the ports and stopping those that we should be focusing on. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Commissioner Buerkle, do you see it that way? Ms. Buerkle. Not exactly, Mr. Chair. First of all, I kind of want to separate it out. It becomes very complicated when you put them all together because I think there are separate initiatives we should talk about. And I will just say for the record that I am not a proponent of user fees. I think constitutionally they are questionable. You cannot charge an individual for a service they haven't received. And the money would be used to build the system. So I think there is a constitutional issue and a fairness issue. Some will not even avail themselves of the service. But, primarily, the Constitution is my concern with the user fee. Beyond that, I think we have to look at this in three steps. The initiative, and the chairman referred to, I am so pleased that he has opened this up to the public in discussion, is the 1110 rule for the agency, which is electronic filing of a certificate of compliance if someone wants to bring product into the country. Until we get that piece in place, we have no mechanism to comply with the next piece of this, which is the executive order, which is allowing it to come through a single window. So first we need the 1110. Now, gratefully, the agency is doing a pilot, which will start January 2016, which I think is a very wise thing to do because when you are involving so many players and so many parties and you are talking about bringing trade to its knees if we don't get this right. So the pilot is a good idea. So that is the 1110. That final 1110 rule in the e-filing probably won't come to fruition for a couple of years. The next part of the money we were given in 2015 is being used to--it is a need survey that is being done, a requirements survey. We are spending $1 million on it to put it out for bid and to have it contracted to look at how and what the RAM system, as we expand it, should be and how it should work. That makes sense. And before we do that and complete that and identify the needs of CPSC, I think we should do that first, and then spend the money on expanding the RAM. But I think it is important when we talk about this Risk Assessment Methodology, that is RAM, is that we right now have the capability to look at every line for every article that is coming into the United States. We don't have the people. We are not collocated at many of our ports with CBP. And that is where the money, the additional of the $4 million from last year, part of that will be used to ramp up our presence at the borders, and so that is a good thing. But my thought is in all of this, we are affecting so many stakeholders. This is a difficult, complicated issue. We can take it step by step. Let's get the e-filing done, then let's look at what our requirements survey showed, build out the RAM, and make sure that we can communicate electronically with CBP so as those certificates come in we are not stopping trade or bringing it to its knees. Mr. Crenshaw. Well, thank you. And my time has expired, and I hope somebody will ask about the $1 million that we appropriated to reduce some of the test burden. But right now let's go to Mr. Serrano. Mr. Serrano. Thank you. I had a budget question to ask both of you, but I was inspired by something you said, Ms. Buerkle, that I would like both of you to comment on. I am not interested in wrecking American business. But we got to be the country we are because we said early on, before many countries said it, the air you breathe should be cleaner than it is, the water you drink should be cleaner than it is, you shouldn't be poisoned, the clothing you wear should not by simply going near a stove light up and burn you. Those are regulations, and that is a bad word in some cases. So where do you find the balance between protecting the American consumer and not hurting American business? Some people would say, well, he is a classical liberal Democrat, he is against business. No, I want business to survive. I am a capitalist. I want it to survive. But I also want my children and grandchildren to be safe. I want to be safe. So, again, remembering that we, by setting up certain regulations, went ahead of other countries in how we behave. I mean, I remember, and I will close with this, growing up in New York City when I was 15, 16--you may know this--by 6 o'clock in the evening your eyes, your ears, your nose were dirty with just the pollution that was coming off the chimneys. It took a regulation to stop that and people don't breathe that way in New York City any longer. So where is the balance? To both of you. Ms. Buerkle. Well, I will start. Mr. Serrano. Sure. Ms. Buerkle. I think you have identified what the problem is and what the difficulty is when you are making a decision as a regulator. We will go back to the import surveillance and the need to make sure that the product brought into this country is safe. Currently in place we have this Risk Assessment Methodology that will look at the lines of product coming in. The system that is set up assesses a priority or a risk, so if it is a manufacturer who has had difficulties before that will be highlighted and that product will be looked at. So there is a system in place. It does need to be made so it can communicate with CBP and the whole single-window initiative, and that is a very important piece of this. But it is not to say something isn't in place right now. The RAM pilot can be a little bit misleading because it is not that it is not at every port. It is. But I would say personnel and having people collocated at the ports and being able to investigate and look at that product is a piece that is missing, but thankfully we got some additional money for new staff not only to be collocated, but also to work on our compliance. I think when we look at any regulation we have to find the balance. And as I said in my comment, I have children and grandchildren and we want safe products. But I think we have to begin to have an appreciation that industry wants safe products. They are people with families who want safe products. They are people who want to have a good brand. No manufacturer, no importer, no retailer wants to have a product that injures, or worse, hurts or kills someone. That is not what they are about. And so if we can partner with them, I think that is going to be very important so that when we promulgate regulations they make sense, they are balanced, and they do protect just what you are talking about. Mr. Kaye. Thanks, Congressman. It is certainly something we spend a lot of time thinking about. I can promise you that. We recently, the Commission approved a rule to require a performance standard for the first time for small high-powered magnets. You may have seen this in the news. These are tiny little spherical-sized or shaped magnets that are basically adult desk toys. Kids were getting a hold of them. They were swallowing them. They were ending up on opposite sides of kids' intestines. They were boring their way through because they are so high powered. And they were creating awful, life-altering injuries, and in one case of an Ohio child, unfortunately, it took her life. This was a very challenging rulemaking for us because you had on one side some phenomenally interesting, entrepreneurial companies that were doing great things with these magnets, and on the other side you had this rampant spate of injuries that, unfortunately, continues while there is still product out there. And you had doctors coming in and surgeons saying, you have to do something about it, you have to save these kids. And parents were up in arms over that. They couldn't control them in their household. They didn't even know they were in their household. They were coming in attached to backpacks and belt buckles, and the parents didn't know that the kids had picked them up at school. And so we weighed that very heavily. That was a very, very difficult choice, and it was actually the first time that I was the chairman of the agency when the magnets rule was finalized, and during my statement, I spoke to the owner of the company who is going to primarily be affected by that. And I weigh those all the time. It is constantly on my mind. And we try to do the best we can. The law, the Regulatory Flexibility Act, requires us, and we follow it, to focus on small businesses and the impact on small businesses. So that is always at the front of our mind. But this idea that there are these faceless bureaucrats in Washington who don't think about it is totally false. And I know that the time has expired. The last thing I want to mention, though, is we had the longest hearing in the history of the agency back on January 7 and it had to do with recreational off-highway vehicles. And we spent, we started in the morning, Commissioner Buerkle remembers it well, and we finished it and it was dark out at night. And we had panel after panel of all different types of folks coming in and talking to us about our rulemaking. And the point of that was to try to get it right. So we do think about these issues. It is certainly at the top of our minds and it will continue to be. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Serrano. In closing, Mr. Chairman, we spend a lot of time, as we should, worrying, being concerned about the working conditions of people who make products overseas and so on, and I think we spend less time concerning ourselves with the products they are producing. And my concern goes back to the fact that I am one who believes we do live in the greatest country on Earth, but we didn't get here without a certain behavior. And if that behavior is overburden, people are overburdened, we should look at it. But we should not just discard it as just more government oversight or whatever that is bad. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Ms. Buerkle. If I could just answer---- Mr. Crenshaw. No, we are going to try to give everybody a chance. Ms. Buerkle. I am sorry. Mr. Crenshaw. Mr. Rigell. Mr. Rigell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, Chairman Kaye and Commissioner Buerkle, thank you very much for being here. And I noted with appreciation, Mr. Chairman, your emphasis on civility and collaboration and constructive dialogue, and that was affirmed in the Commissioner's written testimony as well, and I appreciate that. I would like to draw your attention, Chairman Kaye, to the disposition of the interpretive rule. I am not an expert on this, but we are going to pursue this line of questioning because I think it would be helpful here, and the process by which firms work through the Commission to implement voluntary recalls. The budgetary pressure that you are under is going to continue, essentially into perpetuity. That is just the nature of where we are as a country and the sharp increase in the number of seniors and just some other things that are taking place. We are seeing it on every single line item of our federal budget. So within that framework, and with the shared goal of ensuring that American people can buy products with confidence, that these products are not going to hurt them or their family members, we need to look for efficiency and to be very creative in how we approach the governance side here. And it seems to me, based on the information that I have, that we are going in the wrong direction when we make it more difficult or we put in roadblocks and disincentives to voluntary recalls. I would like for you to respond to that, please. And if there is a difference in view with yours and the Commissioner's, Commissioner Buerkle, I would like to give her an opportunity to respond as well. Mr. Kaye. Absolutely. Thank you, Congressman. And before I address that, I do want to thank you for the Drywall Safety Act. We have discharged all of our obligations under that act. Mr. Rigell. Thank you so much. So many have hurt so badly financially, and I wish we could do more. But thank you for what you have done very much. Mr. Kaye. Yes, and thank you for that law. So the voluntary recall notice rule that you referenced began under a prior chairman, and at that time I did not work on that rule. And everything I am saying I have said already in the public, so I am not giving anything away here. It was not something that was part of my portfolio. By the time I became Chairman, I was interviewed in my office by our three leading trade papers and media that came in to talk to me about my priorities. And what I have said then, and I will say it again now, is my priority is that the Commission work on safety rules, rules that have a clear, justifiable impact on safety. And so I think my track record since I have been chairman is to focus on those kind of rules. Now, there are folks behind me right now who have been impacted by that work, who may not like that we are doing it, but it has to do with products that have a demonstrated history, unfortunately, of what I would consider to be an unreasonable risk of injury. So this is a way of saying I have a higher priority, or a series of higher priorities than the voluntary recall notice rule. I have not spent time on it since I have been chairman. Mr. Rigell. So it is essentially static then? I mean, it is set aside and you haven't picked it up and pursued it. I am just trying to understand your position on it. Mr. Kaye. Yeah, I have not. That is not to say that it is meritless. I just have never studied it closely enough because I didn't work on it. I have not yet read the comments. I think that there is value to having some type of template for these voluntary recalls so that they can move through the process more quickly. But, again, I have higher priorities than that rule. Mr. Rigell. Okay. Thank you. Commissioner. Ms. Buerkle. Yes. With regards to the voluntary recall, my concern with that is, and we have heard from both sides of the aisle on this issue, we have a very successful fast track recall program at the CPSC and this will impede the process and the speed at which products with be taken out of the market if, indeed, they are dangerous. Mr. Rigell. To be precise, Commissioner, when you refer to this, this would be the proposed rulemaking if implemented. Ms. Buerkle. The proposed rule for, yes, voluntary recall. Mr. Rigell. Yes. Ms. Buerkle. Now, to the Chairman's comment, and it is true, we have not taken any steps to further these two issues. And I say two because there is a second one, information disclosure, which we call 6(b), two very controversial proposed rules. And what I would like to see is, because they are both set in our operating plan for final rules in 2015, what happens is, is there a lot of angst and uncertainty out with those stakeholders who will be involved with this. And that is a problem because there is uncertainty as to whether or not we are going to move forward with these proposed rules. And I would like to see some resolution on that. If we are not going to take action on them, we really should get them out of the operating plan so we can create certainty for the stakeholders. Mr. Rigell. That sounds like compelling logic. And I thank you both for your testimony today, and out of respect for my colleagues I am going to yield back. Perhaps we can get another line of questioning in before they have to go vote. Thank you. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you very much. They just called the vote, but I think we have two members that would like to ask questions, and if we could all pay attention to the clock I think we can have those questions, and then we will probably have to go vote. So Ms. Herrera Beutler. Ms. Herrera Beutler. Thank you. And you referenced, Chairman, the ROV rulemaking. As someone who grew up in southwest Washington State I remember riding different off-road vehicles as early as 6 years old. My family would go out. We would go camping, go with other families. It was one of the ways my mother kept my brother focused because he was passionate about it. And in southwest Washington we have a community that is just as passionate. And, quite frankly, this is going to sound a little funny, but we weren't wealthy. You can pick a hobby as a family and you can find a way to do it that is reasonably affordable. So when I am thinking about this community we are not talking about millionaires and billionaires. We are talking about average middle-income families who as a family have chosen to do these type of activities together. And so the affordability piece is incredibly important to me. Two thoughts. You referenced the long meeting, and what concerns me the most is that you made the decision, and anybody who is going to use an off-road vehicle assumes a certain amount of risk, whether it is a bicycle or a motorized vehicle or whether you are going to go hiking. I mean, there is a certain amount of personal risk that you have to take into account. Parents, families have to make these decisions. And I know over the years, things have, based on data, scientific data, information that we have about incidents, there have been appropriate adjustments and changes. Right? There have been appropriate standards put in place. I am not talking about that. What concerns me is it seems or it appears that the requirements were made, but we don't--I mean, actually, I have one of your quotes here. ``Thus, we cannot estimate the potential effectiveness of the dynamic lateral stability and the vehicle handling requirements in preventing injuries.'' So I don't know how you can say that and then make the rule about it. Perhaps you could speak to that. Mr. Kaye. Sure, I would be happy to. And all I would ask from anybody who is going to look at this issue, and I don't think that this is an unfair thing to ask, is that you not only look at the materials that have been provided to you by folks who have a specific interest in it, but you actually take the time to please read the entire rulemaking package. I know that is a lot to ask, and I appreciate from having spent 8 years as a staffer on the Hill how limited your time is, but the rulemaking is that serious and that big a deal, especially if you have a personal history in these vehicles. Ms. Herrera Beutler. So I guess I understand that. I guess, specifically, though, I would like you to speak to that quote. Mr. Kaye. Sure. Ms. Herrera Beutler. That you are making a rule for which you don't know and do not have the data to say it is going to be effective. Mr. Kaye. So I understand why the groups that are opposed to that rule have latched onto that quote by our staff in the draft package. Ms. Herrera Beutler. I got it off Google as I am sitting here. Mr. Kaye. Right. And that quote has been used a number of times. That quote was pulled from the economic analysis portion of the rulemaking package, and it has been taken out of context because what the staff was saying is we are not able to at this point, based on the limited economic data that is available, quantify the specific dollar amount of the benefits associated with the rulemaking package. That is a very different concept from saying we can't figure out whether or not what we have proposed works, and I think that is an important distinction to state in this hearing. Ms. Herrera Beutler. So just a quick follow-up on that. So you are saying you actually do have the ability to estimate the effectiveness of the dynamic lateral stability and vehicle handling requirements in preventing injuries. Mr. Kaye. Absolutely. Ms. Herrera Beutler. I didn't read anything in there about--I wasn't talking about dollars. We are talking about injuries. Obviously, that is the most important thing. Mr. Kaye. Correct. And that is the frustration from our point, is that that quote has been lifted out of a section that had to do with economic analysis and figuring out specific dollar amounts of benefits as opposed to injury reduction. The staff figured out, based on an analysis of vehicles that had been subject to a recall, the line, from their perspective--and I am not a vehicle dynamicist, so I am telling you what our technical experts--we all rely on technical experts and scientific experts--they figured out that if these vehicles were designed in such a way as to lower their rollover resistance, there would be a line between the current ones on the market that don't meet the standard, that have a propensity to roll over all too frequently and kill people, and those that wouldn't. And they can definitively state from their technical analysis that they believe that will make a tremendous difference in the number of deaths and injuries associated with these vehicles. I also want to speak to your point about assumption of risk, and I completely agree with you. But what is lost in that discussion often is that the consumer is informed. I think we all believe and agree that a consumer has to be informed before a consumer can properly make an assessment about risk. What has been difficult for us with these products is many of them are designed in such a way that when the consumer goes to turn the vehicle, and maybe you experienced this when you were riding on them with your family---- Ms. Herrera Beutler. I rode a three-wheeler. Mr. Kaye. Okay. Well, thankfully those---- Ms. Herrera Beutler. So if you really want to talk about it. Mr. Kaye. Yeah, exactly. Well, those don't exist anymore, or shouldn't. The vehicles turn, when they start to turn, unlike a car, they turn in a much more sharp fashion than the driver may intend. From our experience, we are not so sure that drivers fully appreciate that, especially new-time drivers to recreational off-highway vehicles. And as I mentioned, since that is the opposite experience that we have in automobiles, that goes to being informed. We don't think consumers are informed. Ms. Herrera Beutler. And I agree with that. And I will yield back. I guess, I mean, you are not going to put a 12- year-old for the first time ever on a high-powered quad. I mean, there is some---- Mr. Kaye. People do, though, all the time. Ms. Herrera Beutler. So if I understand you correctly, then you are taking it a step beyond that and telling parents when and how. So there is a difference between information and assuming that you have the right to parent everybody's children. Mr. Kaye. Absolutely. I totally understand that. Ms. Herrera Beutler. And I do need to yield back, although I do want--can she---- Mr. Crenshaw. Just very briefly. Ms. Buerkle. Very briefly. Mr. Crenshaw. We have got some time. There are 350 Members haven't voted yet. But they all started voting. Ms. Buerkle. I think the biggest issue with ROVs is that there is this pursuit by the majority in the Commission to get to a mandatory standard. In 2014 there was a new voluntary standard that was passed and the Commission never looked at that 2014 standard before it got to this proposed mandatory standard. The industry is very engaged. They want to work with us. And we have been directed by, bipartisan, two letters from the Senate saying work hard to get to a voluntary standard, do not push this to a mandatory standard. And that has been my frustration, because I continue to say there is so much uncertainty, there are so many questions we all have to ask about this. We had a successful tech-to-tech meeting in October. Let's do that again and again until we can reach a consensus about what we agree on, what changes we can make, so that we end up with a voluntary standard, which I think is the intent of Congress. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you very much. Thank you. Mr. Amodei. Mr. Amodei. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I am a process guy. And so I am looking at the rulemaking stuff and I see that there have been some FOIA issues where your own counsel says, hey, we have got a problem and blah, blah, blah, we need you to disclose. So I am assuming that, because you have indicated you are a process person too, that there will be an extension in that comment period for those folks to fully digest when they get FOIA compliance, so that everybody has the amount of time that is anticipated by the reg to do whatever they are going to do to have their best shot, correct? Mr. Kaye. So we have already had one extension of the comment period, and as of I think 2 days ago now everything has been turned over, that under the FOIA laws, that we should have already turned over. And I agree completely with you. It is unfortunate that we didn't get it right the first time. But there is a process in place under FOIA, there was an appeal, and the process worked. And so we did end up turning over all that data. We do have a pending request that you referenced in front of us for further extension of the comment period. My understanding is that we might be getting an additional request from a different part of the industry community. We are waiting to see if that one comes in. And then I can't unilaterally do that. That is a Commission requirement. And so when the staff sends up their recommendation to us, we will take that into consideration. We don't always go with what the staff said. We had a recommendation on a different rulemaking last week where the staff recommended we do not extend the comment period. We overruled that recommendation and went ahead and extended that comment period. I can give you this commitment, and I am going to slightly disagree with my colleague. There is a pursuit. But the pursuit is not to do a mandatory rule. The pursuit is to get to an effective rule. So I am going to continue to be committed. And when I say effective standard, that could be a voluntary standard. During that 7-hour hearing that I referenced, I begged, and there are some of the individuals in the room behind me right now, I begged those with the power in the voluntary standards community to reopen the standards process. That is the mechanism for us to join them at the table and create an effective voluntary standard. To date, they have declined to do that. I can't make them do that. You probably could. Mr. Amodei. And I appreciate that. But the question is not what are you going to do on the substance. The question started with, I am a process guy. And so when I have your own counsel telling me that you didn't meet the law, and I have got single digits of days from when that is complied with to when the thing is at the end of it, and then you come tell me, and I know you can't do it yourself, but in a general sense, it is like if they have got 48 hours after you finally comply, after your own counsel says we didn't meet the standards, I would think that would be a strong case for giving these people, whoever they may be, the benefit of the process. Mr. Kaye. I agree. I agree. And my track record has been fairness. Mr. Amodei. I am not attacking your track record. Mr. Kaye. No, and I appreciate that. Mr. Amodei. I want to make sure that you are a process person. Mr. Kaye. I am definitely a process person, and I would imagine that Commissioner Buerkle would agree. Mr. Amodei. Thank you very much. Ms. Buerkle. Mr. Chairman, could I just add one quick comment to that? Mr. Crenshaw. Certainly. Ms. Buerkle. And that is the suggestion of opening up the standard, the voluntary standard. The general way a voluntary standard and the ANSI standards are done is not public. And if CPSC opens up this voluntary standards hearing, it then becomes public because of our limitations. So it is better to let the ANSI process work the way it always works and not try to change the ANSI process into getting a voluntary standard. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you very much. Let me just finally say, this whole question about balancing safety with the impact it has on commerce, I didn't get a chance, but I want you to just be aware that Congress said that we have got to relieve some of that test burden that we are having. That is why we gave you an extra million dollars, because we thought that whole concept was languishing somewhere. I think your report was due on March 16. It has just come in. We will look at that. But I hope you will continue to make that a priority. So with that, this hearing is adjourned. Thank you so much. [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Tuesday, March 24, 2015. FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION WITNESSES HON. TOM WHEELER, CHAIRMAN, FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION HON. AJIT PAI, COMMISSIONER, FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION Mr. Crenshaw. The meeting will come to order. I want to welcome our witnesses Chairman Tom Wheeler, and Commissioner Ajit Pai, from the Federal Communications Commission. This will be the second time, exactly 364 days, since you were both here before, but who is counting? Welcome, and thank you for being here today. The focus of the day's hearing is the FCC's fiscal year 2016 budget request. The Commission has requested a total of $413 million, or a $73 million or 21 percent increase over the current level of funding. Within your fiscal year 2016 request is a $25 million transfer from the Universal Service Fund to augment the commission's funding. A large part of your requested increase is for a potential move from your current location, and I have some questions for you regarding the cost of this move. But a 21 percent increase is far more than most agencies have seen in recent years. While the FCC is fee-funded, these fees are directly passed on to consumers, as is the funding for the Universal Service Fund. Because of this, I believe the committee's oversight over the FCC activities is especially important and I take this very seriously. This committee has held the FCC's funding at a flat level since 2012, because we believe that the commission can and should do less with less. We believe you all should do a better job of managing your resources and focusing on your core operations. Unfortunately, the commission seems to be pursuing politically charged issues, rather than the mission-critical work of the FCC. I heard Angela Merkel talk about the difference between Europe and the U.S. in terms of Internet regulation, and one of the things that she said was, in Europe, we tell them what they can do; and in the U.S., you tell them what they cannot do. And I think that is interesting, because when there is a lot of competition there is not as much need for regulation. The Internet has been an unparalleled catalyst for innovation, yet the FCC, just a month ago, voted to constrain and control something that has brought about innumerable technological advances and American jobs. The recent rule-making puts both broadband Internet and wireless Internet under a 1930s-era, utility-style regulation regime, which I believe is outdated, backwards, and most importantly, stifles job creation and innovation. These rules will slow down critical broadband investment at a time where our economy is still rebounding. Today's U.S. Internet market exceeds Europe's in both competition and investment. American Internet users have more choices than our European counterparts, and yet we are moving toward more onerous and restrictive regulation. I do not think anyone could imagine where the Internet would be just five years ago. The idea that the FCC is capable of anticipating all possible future innovations, to me, is implausible, and I believe this rule will result in damaging, unintended consequences. Aside from the recent rule-making, we have a number of other significant topics to cover with you all today. Commissioner Wheeler, you are asking for $117 million auction administration cap to implement the largest incentive auction of our lifetime. Just last year the AWS-3 Spectrum auction closed after 341 rounds of bidding with a record $41.3 billion in revenue raised. The upcoming 2016 incentive auction will match broadcasters who have underused commercial spectrum with wireless companies, who need more spectrum due to the so-called ``spectrum crunch''. This kind of auction has never been done before at this level of either complexity or size. The committee fully supports this auction, as it is expected to generate billions of dollars of revenue for deficit reduction. However, we are concerned with transparency within the auction administration funds. We also expect this to be a fair and open auction so all interested parties can fully participate, and to generate the biggest bang for our buck. While I understand net neutrality rules and the incentive auction have dominated the headlines recently, I am eager to hear from you about the cost of your headquarters move, the Universal Service Fund oversight, and structural reforms of the commission. The FCC has significant work to do, and I hope that today we can talk about how this agency can be run in an effective and efficient manner. So I thank you both for the work that you do. Thank you to your staffs. I look forward to your testimony. And now I would like to turn to my distinguished ranking member, Mr. Serrano, for any opening statement he might make. Mr. Serrano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before I start, you were quoting a European nation telling us how to behave? Mr. Crenshaw. I was telling you what a foreign nation said about regulation. Mr. Serrano. Okay. Just checking. Mr. Crenshaw. And evidently, we are doing better than they are. Mr. Serrano. Yeah, just wanted the record straight. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I would like to join you in welcoming Chairman Wheeler and Commissioner Pai back before the subcommittee. We had an interesting hearing last year, and I expect this year's will be as lively as well. The Federal Communications Commission plays an increasingly important role in our society and in our economy. As new technologies have developed, entire new industries and methods of communications have emerged for television, radio, satellite, and the Internet, the FCC is the vital link in ensuring fair competition, media diversity, and expanded access to these vital parts of our economy. Unfortunately, the subcommittee has hampered the ability to meet these challenges by forcing the FCC to operate with the same level of funding for the last two years. This is having serious negative effects on the FCC's enforcement capacity, as well as its abilities to meet the demands of a rapidly changing environment. The agency is now operating at its lowest level of personnel in more than 30 years. That is incredible. If you think about it, over the past 30 years the FCC has had to regulate entire new industries, but we are only providing enough resources to regulate those that existed 30 years ago. The FCC has had to do much more with much less than is needed, and if we make matters even worse and go back to sequester levels, then we are only courting disaster. In this context, I believe that your budget request is reasonable and necessary. It should be obvious over the past few months, there are numerous important and pressing issues that the FCC is dealing with beyond struggling with artificially low funding. I, for one, strongly applaud the commission's actions last month to ensure net neutrality and an open Internet. I firmly believe that it is of the utmost importance for consumers and businesses that they have assurances that their Internet content and access will be treated the same way as everyone else's. This principle is of crucial importance to innovation in our country, and to consumers as well. In particular I wanted to compliment your efforts to ensure that mobile devices are treated in the same manner as wired devices. A large number of Latinos and African Americans only have access to the Internet via their smartphones, and rules without these protections could have negatively affected their access to the Internet. Additionally, I hope we have a chance to discuss smartphone theft and kill-switch technology. Since last year's hearing there has been some important progress on this issue, both at the FCC and within private industry. While I am pleased with these important steps forward, I believe having a clear, enforceable standard is the best way to ensure that smartphone theft continues to decline, and along with Senator Klobuchar, I plan to reintroduce a smartphone theft prevention act in the near future. I understand that you both have testified for Congress several times in the past few weeks. I can tell by the looks on your faces. Thank you for the laughs. So some of these issues may be very familiar ground; however, I welcome you to this hearing, I look forward to this testimony, and before I close, let me tell you that I clogged the airwaves this morning, because on my iPad, I just said that we were at this hearing both on Facebook and Twitter. So, we are working together. Thank you so much, and thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Quigley. Were you neutral about it? Mr. Serrano. I was very neutral about it. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you, Mr. Serrano. And I know that our witnesses have been busy for the last couple of weeks, but they have had a weekend to rest up, so they are here today. So, Chairman Wheeler, I would like to recognize you for any opening statement you might make. If you could keep your remarks within the five-minute limit that will give us more time for questions. The floor is yours. Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw, Mr. Serrano, members of the committee, thank you very much for the opportunity to be here 364 days later, sir. You know, I am a businessman and you are my board of directors, and I would like to present this in kind of the way that I would present to boards of directors when I was in my previous life. So, there are hopefully slides in front of you that I would like to walk through. [Slide] The first chart labeled Executive Summary, on the left shows the current state of affairs for the agency. Our headquarters space is too large and too expensive, our field footprint is too large and inefficient, and we have major opportunities to reduce our operating expenses through the use of technology. We also have inappropriate allocations of costs that are burdening those that do not benefit from those expenses. So what we are proposing over on the right side, our response, is a budget with the lowest number of full-time employees in 20 years, the first full-time employee reduction in 10 years, the first review of field operations in 20 years, and a reduction of the big ticket items associated with the headquarters and contractors. Yes, it is up $84 million dollars; 70 percent of that is unavoidable kinds of expenses that we will talk about in detail, I am sure; 20 percent of that is for investment that will reduce costs; 10 percent are things you told us to do, but did not fund. And as I said, we tie our expenditures to our activities. [Slide] Quickly, the next two slides show how the agency funding has been flat while the FTEs have been declining. [Slide] The next one shows the volume growth in activities while FTEs have been declining. [Slide] But the important slides then are five and six, because on five we talk about the cost savings that are underway; that the FTEs are the lowest because we are not filling vacancies; that the field office update is crucial. Nobody has looked at it for 20 years. We can cover 80 percent of the U.S. with eight offices, and pre-positioned equipment, rather than the current 24 offices. We are eliminating in the process very high per capita operating expenses. We are cutting the number of contractors through the use of technology. Contractors, as you know, are significantly more expensive than FTEs. And we are going to continue this kind of approach going forward. [Slide] So, if you look at slide six and how we build the budget, the columns are the three sources of revenue, if you will: that which we generate from fees on those we regulate; then revenue generated from the auction; and from the Universal Service Fund. The first three items, office move, inflation, and inspector general request, which are what I have categorized as unavoidable; actually, if you take those unavoidable expenses out of the bottom line you will see that we actually would be requesting a decrease. [Slide] Slide seven is what those expenses look like on a proportional basis, and as you can see, 71 percent of them are associated with things that we have to do. The next largest is IT, which is how you save money going forward: 5 percent for the broadband map and a Do Not Call Registry for 9-1-1 providers, which we were mandated to do but were not funded to do; 4 percent to begin the broadcast relocation work for the incentive auction; and 2 percent for cyber security. [Slide] Since IT is the next biggest expense after the move, take a quick look if you would, please, at page eight, which is what the IT expenditure allows us to do, in terms of infrastructure, to move to the Cloud, which will save us between $1 million and $2 million a year; allow us to have a single architecture for our data, which also will increase productivity and reduce operating costs; and allow us to move to a core platform, which again, will save another $1 million to $2 million a year. But the big-ticket item, the big enchilada, is the move and the impact of that is discussed in slide nine. [Slide] Here is why it needs to happen. We need to move to a smaller space, and we need to pay less per square foot. We are currently in about 650,000 square feet. We should be in about 475,000 square feet. We are currently paying about $60 a square foot. We should be paying about $55 a square foot. This requires an up-front investment to save $190 million, $119 million net, but you can see the impact over time of what this investment would get us. And then lastly, the last chart, is we looked at, what if we did not move, what if we downsized in place, and what would that cost? And it actually ends up costing us more because the rent goes up even higher, the relocation expenses associated with it, details of the cost associated with shrinking offices, office sizes, et cetera. So, I look forward to discussing this and any other issues with you. Thank you very much. [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. I would like to recognize Commissioner Pai. Mr. Pai. Thank you. Chairman Crenshaw, Ranking Member Serrano, and members of the subcommittee. It is privilege to appear before you today. Thank you for inviting me to testify on the FCC's budget request. Although all commissioners are asked to vote on a budget proposed by the chairman that is delivered to the Office of Management and Budget, I have not been asked to participate in the development of the agency's budget request. Unfortunately, after reviewing this proposal, I am unable to support it. To be clear, this subcommittee should give the FCC the resources necessary to carry out its core responsibilities. The FCC staff is filled with talented individuals who are dedicated to serving the American people, and we tackle a wide variety of tasks assigned by Congress, from freeing up more spectrum for mobile broadband to protecting public safety. But the Commission is requesting a baseline budget of $413 million, a 17 percent increase over last year. That is dramatically higher than it has been at watershed moments in the FCC's history. For instance, the agency's baseline budget after adjusting for inflation was only $277 million when it faced the monumental task of implementing the Telecommunications Act of 1996. In that light, the current request is not fiscally responsible, and so I would like to offer three specific suggestions for improving it. First, I do not favor transferring $25 million from the Universal Service Fund to the Commission. Put simply, this is a stealth tax increase on the American consumer. The money that goes into the Fund comes out of the pockets of consumers when they pay their telephone bills each month, and this proposal would require those consumers to pay an additional $25 million this year. That amount would be on top of the $1.5 billion annual tax increase that the FCC adopted last December to fund additional E-Rate spending, which will go into effect later this year. Since the beginning of 2009, the Universal Service contribution rate, that is the FCC-imposed consumer tax rate, has already jumped over 83 percent. Congress should not take action to push it even higher. Second, funds for moving the FCC's headquarters or reorganizing how we use our existing facilities should not be included within the FCC's general budget authority. Over the long term, moving or reorganizing is likely to save money, but the funds that we spend on that effort will be a substantial one-time expense. I therefore believe that it makes sense for Congress to give us specific budget authority for this purpose. If these funds are included within our general appropriation amount, it may paint a misleading picture of our baseline budget and make it harder to reduce that budget when there is no longer the need to spend money on moving expenses. Third, Congress should forbid the FCC from using any funds to implement or enforce the plan it just adopted to regulate the Internet. Not only is this plan bad policy, absent outside intervention, the Commission will expend substantial resources implementing and enforcing rules that are wasteful, unnecessary, and affirmatively detrimental to the American public. Heavy-handed regulation does not come cheap. The FCC has already wasted millions of dollars on this unprecedented action, and we are on course to waste millions more. The implementation and enforcement of these new rules will not only impose significant burdens on the nation's thousands of Internet service providers and harms on consumers; they will also consume substantial FCC resources. In my limited time I will offer just one example. The order allows parties to seek advisory opinions from the FCC's Enforcement Bureau. Given the breadth and vagueness of many of the new regulations, especially the new Internet conduct standard, I expect that many parties will seek clarification. Drafting advisory opinions will require careful consideration of the circumstances involved in each and every request. This inevitably will be resource-intensive. The Bureau must process each request, review the facts behind each filing, make a decision, and then draft an opinion, which will undergo layers of review. And since the Bureau lacks specialized expertise in this particular area, it will likely rely heavily on the expertise of other Bureaus especially those that helped craft the order. At a time when the FCC is struggling to fulfill some of its core responsibilities under the Communications Act, it should not spend millions of dollars to regulate the Internet. This subcommittee is well aware that budgets are finite. Funds spent on regulating the Internet are by definition funds that cannot be spent on critical priorities. So instead of trying to fix something that is not broken, let us use our limited budget to fix something that is broken, such as the FCC's information technology systems or its widely-panned, user-unfriendly website. Chairman Crenshaw, Ranking Member Serrano, members of the subcommittee, thank you once again for inviting me to testify. I look forward to answering your questions and to working with you and your staffs in the time to come. [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Crenshaw. Well, thank you very much. And let us begin the questions. We have got a full house, and I know there are a lot of questions, so let us try to observe the five minute rule both from the questioner's standpoint, as well as the responder's standpoint. Let me talk a little bit about net neutrality, and ask first of all, Chairman Wheeler, this question. It has been pointed out that you have been here on Capitol Hill testifying quite a bit recently, and you know that Chairman Upton and Chairman Thune are working on legislation in this area. But ultimately, the funding that allows the FCC to work on any rules, like net neutrality, comes from this committee. That is where the money comes from. And we have kept your funding purposefully low for a few years in hopes that the limited funding would push you all toward prioritizing the most important work of the agency. But instead, it seems that this agency has prioritized politically polarizing rule makings at the expense of some of the statutorily mandated and other important work that this agency has to do. Let me give you a couple examples of statutorily mandated work that seems to be taking a second seat. There is a mandate that requires the commission to annually report to Congress on the status of competition in the market for the delivery of video programming, and the Commission did not issue such report last year, even though the statute mandates that. There is another section of the Telecommunications Act that says that you have to annually initiate a notice of inquiry concerning the availability of advanced telecommunications capable to all Americans. Now that notice was initiated in August of 2012, but the report was not finalized for another two years. And then lastly, there is a mandate that requires the commission to report every three years on statutory and regulatory barriers to small businesses, and the last report was back in 2011. And so it seems to me that this net neutrality rule may have bumped into a lot of the statutory requirements that are there on the books. So I have to ask you, Chairman Wheeler, can you figure out how much time, how much energy, how much money was spent on working on these net neutrality rules, and then the question is, do you believe that you have spent some of the resources on this rule at the expense of some of the other work that this commission is supposed to do? Chairman Wheeler. Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, you mentioned, for instance, the video competition report, which was a reality that I walked into where there were not votes on the commission. The report got done, but there were not the votes on the commission to adopt it. So what I said was, okay, let us stop the process and let us go to the next iteration, meaning we have to start again as to how do we find consensus inside the commission on this report; and that I promised to the Congress that this would be done in less than the requisite time for a new report. And so we will have the new iteration of that to the Congress in June of 2016. But you know, one of the challenges we have, is we do need to get the requisite number of votes. As I said at another hearing that Commissioner Pai and I were at, five type A individuals, but just to discuss specifically open Internet order. I mean, the fact of the matter is that the Internet is the most powerful and pervasive platform in the history of society and there becomes a basic question of do you have rules and do you have a referee? In reviewing the transcript it appears that Representative Crenshaw asked a question regarding the status of the Video Competition Report. Chairman Wheeler's response was related to the Media Ownership Quadrennial Review item. With respect to the Video Competition Report, the Commission recently released that item on April 2, 2015. Mr. Crenshaw. Let me encourage you all to be concise because the question is, I mean, I assume you do not think that you have spent any time, and money, and energy on the rule that would have been better spent on other priorities. Mr. Wheeler. I think we have prioritized correctly, sir, if that is your question. Mr. Crenshaw. Okay, thank you. So and then let me just ask Commissioner Pai to respond to that, not only the overall rulemaking, how it is going to impact consumers, but also do you think there are some other things that might have been prioritized instead of the time and energy spent on this rule? Mr. Pai. I do, Mr. Chairman. I would respectfully disagree with our chairman in terms of the priority that net neutrality received. I think that by definition net neutrality took our eye off the ball of some of the other critical priorities, from removing barriers from infrastructure investment, embracing the IP transition, getting more spectrum into the commercial marketplace, both licensed and unlicensed. I think the staff that spent an inordinate amount of time and effort on net neutrality could have been focusing on those priorities. And ironically enough, the Title II net neutrality order takes us in the opposite direction. It adds barriers to innovation and investment, and it will actually reduce competition in the marketplace. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Serrano. Mr. Serrano. Thank you. I was not going to speak about net neutrality at this point, because I did not think it would come up this early. Silly me. First of all, I have been in Congress 25 years and, most of the time, I would say, high amounts of time, when the other party does not agree on an issue, I may not agree with them, but I understand what the issue is and what their complaint is. I really do not understand the opposition to net neutrality. To make it open, to make it better, to diversify it, to give people at the bottom a shot at having the same protections and the same freedoms as people who are more powerful in this society. I do not understand what the argument is. And in addition, I do not understand the argument or the conspiracy theory that in some way the President had inappropriate influence on the net neutrality rules that were just released to give Internet users the strongest protections possible. So I would like, Chairman Wheeler, for you to please talk a little about the public input and how it influenced the Commission's decision. And just let me tell you that in front of me, and for the record, Mr. Chairman, although they were addressed to us, I have letters from the Alliance for a Just Society, Black Alliance for Just Immigration, Black Lives Matter, Center for Community Change, Center for Media Justice, National Rule Assembly, and they all were in favor. So what role did the public play, and is it the way I think, that the public played the major role in the input for the final decision? Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Mr. Serrano. I mean, I think it is fair to say that this is the most open and transparent proceeding in the history of the Commission. We had 4 million comments from Americans, and never had any of that kind of outpouring before. Basically, it seems as though things have boiled down to a situation where you have three major companies, Comcast, AT&T, and Verizon, differing with other Internet service providers, such as Sprint, T-Mobile, Cablevision, Frontier, small rural carriers, the competitive carrier association, and the small wireless carriers. And differing from what we heard from thousands of entrepreneurs who said they needed to have an open Internet, and investors saying that they could not invest if there was not an open Internet, and those millions of inputs. So there was a full discussion of the issues involved, and I think the American people fully expressed themselves as to the importance of this, the most important network we have ever seen. Mr. Serrano. Thank you. Mr. Pai, I will give you an opportunity to disagree with everything he said. Mr. Pai. Thank you, Congressman, for the question. I begin from the proposition that everybody believes in a free and open Internet. And the good news is the Internet has been free and open for some time. One of our Democratic colleagues put it well in hearing last week: Our Internet economy is the envy of the world. And I would argue that we have reached this stage precisely because of the bipartisan consensus that started in the Clinton administration that the Internet would thrive free from government regulation. And I think that's what part of the problem is that the FCC in this case is regulating to solve a problem that simply does not exist. Now, the question is: How do we incentivize more broadband competition? That is a topic on which I think there are critical policies that we should be adopting. That goes to some of the policies that I mentioned in my response to the Chairman. Those are things that could give people more choices, better speeds, lower prices. Unfortunately, Title II, the FCC's order, takes us in the opposite direction. It saddles some of the smaller providers with the regulatory burdens that they are going to be unable to comply with, and it disincentivizes some of the bigger ones, the ones who are responsible for the majority of our capital expenditures, from taking those risks. And we see the example in the comparison with Europe, which I know you referenced in your colloquy with the Chairman. Over the last three years, United States capital expenditures have been 73 percent higher than Europe's in terms of broadband investment. And I would argue that is precisely because we have historically had a more free-market approach, whereas Europe has embraced the utility- style approach which, ironically, the FCC just adopted. Mr. Wheeler. Could I just do one clarification on that, because the difference between us and Europe comes down to the concept of unbundling. What Europe does, wrongly, I believe, is to say that somebody goes out and builds the infrastructure, and then they have to turn around and unbundle it. We specifically say that we do not do that in this order, and specifically remove from the order that part of Title II which authorizes a future Commission to be able to do that. Mr. Serrano. Right. Mr. Chairman, I know my time is running out here, but let me give you my personal view on something. You know, there is a big statement that is always made. If it is not broke, do not fix it. But some things are so important to us that even if we think they are not broke, they need tweaking, they need adjustments, they need oversight, they need support, and they need growth. And I give you as an example the New York subway system. For years, it ran so well that everybody said, Leave it alone. And then it got into crises. Why? Because it got old, the infrastructure got old, and no one had paid attention to it because it ran so well. And now it is running much better, but so I think that even if the Internet is the greatest in the world, to make it better and more available and safer for use is only to our advantage. And that is why I believe that what was done by the Commission is the right thing to do and we should all embrace it. I thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Yoder. Mr. Yoder. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I do not know how expanding government's reach and control over this great economic boom we have had with the Internet will somehow make it better. And I cannot imagine that turning the Internet into a regulated utility somehow will unleash investment and job growth in a way that has not already occurred. In fact, I think it will precisely do the opposite. Commissioner Wheeler, I would like to continue to your budget proposal, and I thought Chairman Crenshaw asked a very important question regarding what the priorities of the FCC are, and where our dollars are being spent. And his question related to all the resources that were expended and an estimate, maybe you could give, regarding the resources expended to regulate the Internet like a common carrier over these past few years that result in the rulemaking. But I would like to know, as we go forward, I think your statement was you expect lots of litigation, ``the big dogs to sue'', I think was your quote at one point. Knowing of that litigation risk, do we know what that will cost the FCC, will cost the government? What are the future expenditures? Chairman Crenshaw asked about the past expenditures, I am interested in the future expenditures, and will that fall under your pie chart here, under unavoidable costs? What are those unavoidable costs to taxpayers? Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Mr. Yoder. We maintain a litigation staff at the agency because no matter what we decide on whatever issue, people turn around, as they have a right to, and ask the court to review it. That litigation staff is in place and that is the same litigation staff that would be used to handle things. Mr. Yoder. Mr. Pai. Mr. Pai. I do think that the litigation component is one part of the costs that will be involved, but I think there are also other important elements as well. The subsequent rulemakings, the FCC order tees up a number of other regulations that are going to have to be adopted, the adjudication of any complaints that are filed with the Commission, as well as any advisory opinions the Enforcement Bureau is called upon to render. Mr. Yoder. So if the FCC could at some point estimate what they think, and we might have different estimates of what this will cost, but we would appreciate to know because we will have to figure out a way to pay for the expense of implementing these rules and litigation. One of the other concerns I have heard from many relates to taxes that may go up related to the government's designation of the Internet as a regulated utility, therefore making it eligible to be taxed under the Universal Service Fund. And I would be interested to know, does the Commission intended to use its new powers to impose these USF fees on the Internet? Mr. Wheeler. Well, as you know, Congressman, there is an exemption from making that decision. We did not make that decision in this order. There is underway a review of the contribution schedule for Universal Service Fund that is being done by a committee of both state regulators and federal regulators. They will be giving us a recommendation. I think it is incorrect, however, to say that anything in what we have done will lead to an increase in universal fee contributions because the amount of the fund is set by the agency. It is not set by what happens in terms of a Title II determination. And that is the important thing to bear in mind, that that number remains fixed, that that number does not increase because of the fact that we have done a Title II reclassification. Mr. Yoder. So just so I understand your answer, the Commission has not decided whether to apply the USF taxes to the Internet? Mr. Wheeler. And if it did, based on the federal state board recommendation, it would be not changing the numerator but changing the denominator. Mr. Yoder. It would change who pays? Mr. Wheeler. Which would have a negligible effect on consumers, if at all. Mr. Yoder. Well, at this point, those fees are not being charged on Internet services and they would be. Do you know what that total would be? Mr. Wheeler. You would have a reduction in one area that may be accompanied by an increase in the other that should end up washing out because the gross number is the same. Mr. Yoder. Mr. Pai. Mr. Pai. I do think that the order explicitly opens the door to the imposition of Universal Service Fund taxes, and the only thing the order assures the public is that those taxes will not increase on the effective date of the order itself. But I do think the writing is on the wall with respect to the Universal Service Fund, given some of the promises the agency has made with respect to the programs that are administered under the Universal Service Fund, you know, E-rate, for example. Secondly, also it is important to remember that the reclassification of broadband as a telecommunications service itself triggers a number of other taxes: state and local property taxes, for example. Heretofore unclassified broadband providers are now going to see a boost in their property taxes, which will have to be borne by the consumer. Additionally, there are a number of other fees that are going to have to increase, pole attachment rates, for example. Those, too, will be passed on, and so reclassification is the first step down the hill, if you will, in terms of the tax rates that Americans pay for broadband. Mr. Yoder. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I would just ask if the FCC could somehow calculate the increase in costs and fees, local, state, and federal, that will be passed on to taxpayers and users and to be able to pass it on to the Committee. Mr. Pai. If I may, one independent study from the Progressive Policy Institute has put that figure at $11 billion per year. Mr. Yoder. Thank you. Mr. Wheeler. And if I may, that specific study was given three Pinocchios by The Washington Post. Mr. Yoder. Sounds like we will have time to continue to discuss this. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you, Mr. Yoder. And let me recognize the Chairman of the Communications and Technology Subcommittee of Energy and Commerce, Mr. Walden, who is joining us today. Appreciate your interest. Now let us recognize Mr. Quigley. Mr. Serrano. I would also like to welcome him. Mr. Quigley. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It is good to see the Pinocchio caucus is in session. Gentlemen, thanks for being here. A couple quick points: Mr. Chairman, the auction that needs to take place. The allocation to handle this is about $1.75 billion to the television broadcaster relocation fund. Estimates we are hearing now it is about $1 billion short. Our concern is who is going to have to make this up. Your thoughts on that? Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Mr. Quigley. Congress said that the max that we can spend is a $1,750,000,000 and we will adhere to those rules. Some broadcasters have estimated that it could be more, you know, everybody has their own set of figures, if you will. It is possible that Congress could adjust that number, but our challenge is we have to live within the number we were given in the legislation. Mr. Quigley. If it fails to be enough, are the broadcasters the ones that would have to make this up, on your thoughts? Mr. Wheeler. Well, the fascinating thing is that it really is going to depend on how many broadcasters sell and how many broadcasters stay, and it is something where the variables that go into the equation determine what the outcome of the equation is. And so anybody picks any set of variables and then come out with a number that they want. Mr. Quigley. Well, what would you recommend if there is this kind of shortfall? Congress come out with more? Mr. Wheeler. There have been efforts that we have been engaged in to see if the wireless industry could create some kind of an insurance fund, if you will, because after all they are the ones who are going to be ending up getting this spectrum. And they have, thus far, been unwilling to do that. But I think that clearly, if we end up in that kind of a situation, then we have to look at what those solutions might be. That is one, the Congressional approach that you suggested is another, but I understand the reality that you are saying, and again, it is the variables in the equation that end up determining the answer. Mr. Quigley. And given the short period of time, can you give me a couple minutes on how we have done improving different topic positive train control issues that you have play a role in implementing that? Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Congressman. You know, when I was before you last year, we had our hands full so far as how we were dealing with the necessity for the railroads to get approval to have towers for positive train control along their tracks. We had made spectrum available, we had facilitated spectrum license changes, but the problem of the poles was a big one. And this is because there were requirements that Native Americans have the ability to approve the placement of those poles. The FCC, working with the tribal communities and others, developed an expedited process and I am really proud to say we are now in a situation where we have the capacity to handle more applications for those clearances required by law than the railroad industry has been able to fill the pipeline with. So I think that we are over the hurdle. It was a serious challenge that I do not want to make light of. Mr. Quigley. No, and it is very important to my passenger and the freight industry across the country. Mr. Pai, if you want to add to this your thoughts? Mr. Pai. No, I commend the Chairman for the steps he has taken and I agree that it is a critical matter that requires a lot of disparate parties to work together. And the good news is that we do seem to be working toward a common end. Mr. Quigley. Yeah, and at some point we have got to come to the realization that people are not going to meet the deadline at the end of the year. We are extraordinarily concerned about the safety issues. We are going to have to find a way to move forward that does not blindside the industry and hurt our passenger rail as it moves forward. And just briefly, for both of you, I appreciate your thoughts on net neutrality. I know the passion that is out there is extraordinary, and as Chairman, I tend to agree with where you are on net neutrality. But I am listening to everyone, even those emailing me from their parents basement with a Star Wars figurine staring back at them. I have never seen such intensity about this issue, but we have got to get it right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Graves is recognized. Mr. Graves. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Gentlemen, good to see you today. And I appreciate Mr. Quigley's comments there, and certainly this issue will talk about today. And you guys have made your tour, I know that, around Capitol Hill. And I want to just drill down a little deeper, if I could today. So Mr. Chairman, forgive me for directing my comments or questions to Mr. Pai, but I would like to do that because Mr. Pai, you have been on the record, very vocal recently, and a lot of different statements in opposition to net neutrality. And I think you will find there are many members of this panel that agree with your position there as well. But I wanted to see if you could help us a little bit more with more detail and more specifics because your quotes are very bold. In fact, you said the Commission's decision to adopt President Obama's plan marks a monumental shift toward government control of the Internet. It gives the FCC the power to micromanage virtually every aspect of how the Internet works. You also said the claim that President Obama's plan to regulate the Internet does not include rate regulation is flat out false. You have also said it is detrimental to the American people, that was in your statement. But then, on the other hand, we have the Chairman and Mr. Serrano and others, and I mean Chairman Wheeler and Mr. Serrano and others, who disagree with your statements. And they say this not the case, that the FCC will not be able to rate, regulate, control the speeds and services, and the Chairman briefly mentioned that there are only three major companies in opposition that have been outspoken. So if you could just help this panel hear more from your perspective and drill deeper with the specifics as to your statements and away from the platitudes but a little bit deeper: how will this impact the American people, and business, and the economy negatively in your viewpoint here? Mr. Pai. Thank you for the question, Congressman. I will tackle each of them as I understood them. First, in terms of the breadth of the FCC's Internet regulations, it does in fact regulate every part of the Internet. Now, traditionally, net neutrality was meant to encompass the relationship between Internet service provider and a customer, the so-called last mile of connectivity. But this plan goes far beyond that. For example, it sweeps into its regulatory ambit interconnection: the relationship between Internet service providers and edge providers, going into the very core of the network. It applies to that relationship, Section 201 of the Communications Act, which allows the FCC not just to regulate rates, which I will get to in a second, but also to even specify the physical connections that have to be made and the through routes as they are called over which traffic has to ride. And that is in the text of Section 201 itself. That is something that the FCC, no government agency, has ever done. Similarly, with respect to service plans, forget about the infrastructure itself, the agency is now arrogating to itself an incredible amount of power that is going to be wielded in uncertain ways. And so, for example, under the Internet conduct standard, the FCC now puts on the chopping block various service plans that have generally been beneficial to the American consumer, things like T-Mobile's Music Freedom, for example, which allows customers to stream music under their smart phones exempt from any data caps. The FCC explicitly says that this is a practice that may or may not violate net neutrality. And so if you are a wireless entrepreneur going forward, especially one trying to make a splash in the marketplace against the big guys, your ability to compete is going to be restrained because you do not know whether or not that service innovation may be proscribed. And I think it is telling that after the FCC adopted the order, the agency admitted itself, ``We do not really know how this particular standard is going to play out.'' The second thing you mentioned was in terms of rate regulation. Now the order goes to great pains to say that we do not engage in ex-ante regulation, regulation before the fact, tariffing, the adoption of a cost methodology, and so forth. But it explicitly leaves on the table ex-post rate regulation. It invites complaints, for example, both to the Commission and to federal court, about the justness and reasonableness of rates. And I think what you saw last week before the Senate Commerce Committee was an acknowledgment that, yes, the FCC determining whether or not rates were just and reasonable is essentially rate regulation. That is ultimately going to be to the detriment of the American consumers. Additionally to the point with respect to who is opposing this, we have not just heard from the big boys, as has been said, we have heard from a great many small providers. Twenty- four small ISPs, for example, each with less than 1,000 customers, wrote to us and told us that Title II would be the wrong solution, including Main Street Broadband in Cannon Falls, Minnesota, which has four customers. We heard from a great variety of municipal broadband providers, government-owned projects, including some that the president himself endorsed, who said that Title II would be a ``tremendous mistake.'' We heard from countless wireless ISPs, who, without a dollar of federal subsidies, give people in my home state of Kansas and the state of Missouri all kinds of options they would not have otherwise. And so I think from the standpoint of competition, ironically enough, Title II takes us in the opposite direction from where we want to go. I hope I answered the questions that you teed up to your satisfaction. Mr. Graves. No, it is very helpful, and I appreciate your explanation there. And then as we go through this proceeding I would hope that both of you would really help us with the specifics as to how this impacts the American consumer, take it from the political partisan side and move it into the details, and I appreciate your specific answer. Thank you very much. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Bishop. Mr. Bishop. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I, again, welcome our witnesses. I would like to explore something: minority participation in the spectrum auctions. According to your budget requests, the FCC has conducted 85 spectrum auctions, which landed 39,780 licenses for a total of over $53 billion between Fiscal Year 1994 and Fiscal Year 2014. I am concerned that small businesses, in particular minority owned businesses, may not have the same access to take advantage of these high-capital public auctions to the extent that large corporations do. Do you have a plan to encourage the participation of minority-owned businesses and what is this plan? What information do you have on the participation of minority-owned businesses in past auctions and what are you doing with this information when planning future auctions? And I will just go ahead and add a second question on a somewhat different topic, and you can address both of them in the interest of time. It is recently come to my attention that the reclassification of the ISPs under the new open Internet rules may lead to an increase in the fee that cable companies pay for attaching their lines to utility poles. What is your take on this, and how do you think that this will impact consumers? Mr. Wheeler. Is that to either one of us? Mr. Bishop. It is to both of you. Mr. Wheeler. Okay. So let me see. I will handle the first one. I know you have spoken on the second one, so you can handle the second one, okay? The Congress has said to us, insofar as unique so-called designated entity groups are concerned, that we need to make sure that there are opportunities in the auction. This was a decision that Congress made in 1993. There have been significant changes in the market since then. You know, in 1993, anybody could create a wireless company, and go out and compete. Today, the chances of, you know, the Bishop Wireless Company being successful against the behemoths is pretty slim and nonexistent. So, we have to ask ourselves the question: how do we maintain the mandate of Congress, or the instructions of Congress, to create these opportunities in a changing environment? And so, last November, I think it was, I moved a proposed rulemaking to address this, specifically with the upcoming incentive auction in mind. Yesterday, I issued, or sent around to my colleagues for their vote, a public notice making sure that, in that inquiry, we are addressing key questions that have been raised, as to the operation of the designated entity process in the most recent AWS-3 auction. We need to get through those processes before we begin the spectrum auction next year. We will get through those processes, and I think that the Commission--I will not speak for my colleague--but I think the Commission is united in its belief that we do need to make sure that our rules are updated for designated entities. Mr. Pai. Congressman, I would agree with the Chairman. I would add that the AWS-3 auction, in particular, highlights the danger of not implementing serious reforms of our designated entity rules. In that auction, as you may know, a Fortune 500 corporation gamed the system and used two shell corporations, essentially, to claim $3.3 billion in taxpayer subsidies. That is a bad deal for the taxpayers. But, critically, going to your question, it also squeezed out a number of small businesses, many of whom might have been minority-owned, we are not sure, who either did not get a license altogether or had to just relegate itself to other areas of the country where it could compete. And I have listed in a public statement a number of those companies who were seeking a license but got outbid, essentially, by this Fortune 500 corporation. And so I think it is critical for us to implement some strict controls to make sure that this program, so long as it remains on the books, really benefits small businesses, in particular, the disadvantaged businesses you identified. The second part of your question was a very important one that regards the rates that cable companies and others pay to attach broadband equipment to utility poles. One of the unfortunate things about the FCC's order is that, instead of those companies having to pay what is called the 224(d) rate, which is a cable-broadband rate, they are now considered to be telecommunications providers, and so, they are going to pay the higher 224(e) rate that applies to pole attachments by telecom providers. And there is one estimate that small cable providers in particular, as mentioned by the American Cable Association, will have to pay $150-200 million each and every year for those higher pole attachment rates. That rate is going to have to be passed on to the consumer, and a lot of these companies serve underserved communities that already lack broadband options as it is. Mr. Bishop. Mr. Wheeler, you got 30 seconds. Mr. Wheeler. Thank you. The interesting thing is that I was involved, when I was president of the National Cable Television Association, in passage of the pole attachment law, because the cable operators were not being allowed on. Now, what we are finding is that cable operators are saying to new competitors, and others are saying to new competitors, You cannot get on, because you are not a telecommunications provider. And so, the fascinating thing is what we are doing is opening up access to poles. That the current incumbents have been behaving exactly how the anti-cable people were behaving 20, 30 years ago. And what we have done is open it up, so that competitors do have a chance to get on the poles. Mr. Bishop. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Rigell. Mr. Rigell. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, both, for being here. I had the opportunity to meet with Chairman Wheeler privately, and I appreciate the time that you spent with me. It was helpful to me. So, I wanted to direct my questions to Commissioner Pai, and thank you for being here today, and your service on the Commission. And I do so, these questions are designed really to test my understanding and to improve my knowledge about this topic. It is not to make a point. But I got a call a couple days ago from a good friend of mine. He is in this industry. I respect him greatly; he is well-read. And he was really livid; I had to kind of hold the phone away from my ear because he was just livid about this decision. And he was really focusing on the process by which the rule was advanced. And, you know, he was saying this was basically unprecedented. And especially, the final rule, how it was actually rolled out without a comment period. Yet, I also know, I heard from Mr. Chairman Wheeler, we went into this extensively, you know, 3 million people provided their input here. So, help me to understand what, if anything, was unprecedented. Let us set aside the allegations about the administration. I want to set that aside for a moment. Just look at the rest of the process. Was there anything in it that you were very troubled by? And if so, what? I noted that it was not in your written testimony today. Mr. Pai. Thank you for the question, Congressman. And I would be happy to include it in the record, my dissent, which includes a full list of some of the procedural problems that I see. Mr. Rigell. Just one or two substantive ones, because I do not have a lot of time. Mr. Pai. Sure, absolutely. First and foremost, the FCC never proposed Title II as a solution to this alleged problem. The original proposal in May 2014 was based on Section 706 of the Telecommunications Act, which is a somewhat lighter solution. Moreover, after the President made his announcement on November 10th, even then, the FCC was considering a so- called hybrid proposal. Only on February 5th did it become clear that Title II was going to be the course the agency pursued. Mr. Rigell. Is this a substantive difference? I mean, I am not a lawyer, but I mean, when people were commenting, I guess this would be somewhat directed to Chairman Wheeler, I can roll back around here, but were they commenting on the rule that is now before us? And that we are commenting on? Or were they commenting on something that was not relevant to the final rule? Mr. Pai. By and large, they were commenting, over the spring and summer of last year, on what they thought the proposal was or should be. No one in the public was able to see the proposal. Mr. Rigell. The full scope? Mr. Pai. I am sorry? Mr. Rigell. The full scope was not out there. Mr. Pai. The FCC never made the plan public until a couple of weeks after it voted on it. Mr. Rigell. Well, I am on a relentless pursuit of the facts around here. And I think other members are as well, so I do not, believe that I am the only one, but it is really tough to get to the bottom of some of these things. Because 3 million is very compelling if you do not hear it in context. But you make a good point. I want to move over to this substantive side of this thing for a moment. You know, regulation of the Internet is unprecedented, but so is this notion of providers throttling and blocking. Now, let us just give you a hypothetical scenario rule setting, where the capacities is run at maybe 60 percent. People are watching Netflix, everything else. Everything is just running smoothly. Now, do you believe that that single source provider, they do not have any other options, that provider should be able to throttle or block, because they got a good deal with Netflix, and to be able to charge more because of that. Is that your view? Mr. Pai. Congressman, that is an important question. First, there is no evidence in the record that that actually occurs. So that is from a standpoint of regulatory rulemaking. Mr. Rigell. But the notion that some providers would throttle or block, this is not just a hypothetical. I mean, it has been talked about by major providers, has it not? Mr. Pai. It has not been. Mr. Rigell. I mean, is throttling and blocking just something I imagined? Mr. Pai. It is nowhere in the order, Congressman. Mr. Rigell. Not in the order, but, I mean, I am talking about the marketplace. I am a proponent of a marketplace environment, but that is not often the case with broadband providers, especially in rural markets. This is why I am really trying to get this right and work through it. In fairness to the Chairman, I think I owe him at least 30 seconds. Chairman, if you would address this idea that the comments were not really about, you know, the substance of the rule. That would be troubling to me, because you are quoting it as if it is. Mr. Wheeler. Thank you very much, Congressman. During my tenure, what I have tried to do is to put forward a rebuttable presumption, the key thing being rebuttable. And then, to raise all kinds of other issues in the notice, and say, ``We want your comment on this''. Because what a rulemaking should be is an evolutionary process; as you say, that gets everybody's input into it, not that which comes down and says, ``This is what it is going to be''. And so, what we wanted and had was a very evolutionary process, and the question of Title II was asked repeatedly in the notice of proposed rulemaking, number one, and commented upon, repeatedly, by members of Congress and all of those who filed in the proceedings. So there were no surprises in that regard. And let me, if I can go to the blocking and throttling question really quickly. Congressman Walden, I guess, has left, but in his bill, he says no blocking, no throttling, and no paid prioritization. A Republican Commission, in 2002, started this whole thing by saying to Comcast, ``You are blocking, and you should not''. Last August, Verizon moved to throttle wireless speeds, and I had to go to them and say, ``Wait a minute, this is not right''. And they, to their credit, backed off. But they were starting to say, If you buy unlimited service, I am going to throttle you''. And on the question of paid prioritization, there are two things that are worthy of note. One is that Verizon's lawyer, in court, said specifically, I have been instructed by my client that I may say that one of the reasons we are appealing the earlier rules is we want to do that. And secondly, in response to a specific request from Senator Leahy, the major ISPs refused to say they would not prioritize for pay. Mr. Rigell. I thank you, both. I am well over my time. The Chairman's been very gracious. I yield back. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Fattah. Mr. Fattah. Thank you, Chairman. Chairman Wheeler, let me start at a different place. ConnectED, which is an effort that, I think, should be applauded throughout the land, in terms of connecting up our young people in their schools with access. And you got a lot of private sector partners, and it seems to be well on track. If you could take about 60 seconds and tell me anything that is important for us to know about where you are in this. Mr. Wheeler. Well, we have finished a rulemaking in the last three or four months that expanded the E-Rate program to connect schools. About two-thirds of the schools in America did not have high-speed connections. And so, we are facilitating those connections down to the students desk, because it is not just the fiber to the school, it is the Wi-Fi to the desk. Mr. Fattah. The administration just announced a broadband summit. I was with the President yesterday at Select USA, and some 2,700 people, guests from around the world, were interested in direct investment in our country. And one of the selling points that the President made was the tremendous expansion of broadband in our country, in rural and areas that heretofore have not been served. And it was a major selling point. Some $13 billion was invested by these friends, these guests, in companies here. And in part, your work is laying the foundation for that. How will your role, the FCC's role, be in this effort to further expand broadband? Mr. Wheeler. So, our goal, Congressman, in the whole Open Internet proceeding was not only to make sure that the Internet stays open, but also to make sure that there are incentives for business people to want to invest in competitive, ever-faster broadband. And that is why we specifically did not rate regulate and patterned what we did after what has been so wildly successfully, insofar as wireless voice services were concerned, where the wireless voice industry asked to have Title II in forbearance and were wildly successful thereafter. Mr. Fattah. And the last point is that I represent Philadelphia, I represent Comcast. It is the largest employer in my district, so I understand that they have a viewpoint on these matters. But Americans have expressed some viewpoint on net neutrality. You took in public comment, and was it 3 million? Or how many people commented on both sides? Mr. Wheeler. It was roughly 4 million total. And the comments ran basically 3 to 1 in favor of Open Internet. Mr. Fattah. So, you know, I would just stop here, Mr. Chairman, and ask your counterpart, who I understand represents the different point of view in this. Do you think that these 3 million Americans, that their voices should be heard on this matter? Mr. Pai. Absolutely, Congressman. I think all of them should be heard. Mr. Fattah. Even someone in my position, I represent a city in which one of the largest business concerns does not think this is a great idea, but 3 million Americans is pretty substantial. Mr. Pai. I agree, Congressman, but I think, what is critical is providing more competition in the marketplace, rather than heavy-handed regulation, which counterintuitively would disadvantage many of those 3 million consumers. Mr. Fattah. Are you saying that you want to think on their behalf, in this matter? You think they are wrong? Mr. Pai. Well, what I think is the Title II takes us in the opposite direction from the goals that they espouse. Mr. Fattah. You think that their views should be honored by the Congress? They have a position that is contrary to yours and on a 3 to 1 basis. I am saying, do you think we should take into consideration in the United States of America? Mr. Pai. Congressman, as you and your colleagues know, might does not make right in Congress, and same with a regulatory commission. Mr. Fattah. You think we should overrule, them? Mr. Pai. I do. I think that the agency should focus on broadband priorities. Mr. Fattah. Thank you. I appreciate you, and I appreciate you standing up for what you believe. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Pai. Thank you, sir. Mr. Crenshaw. Also, I will just point out, we did not hear from 307 million Americans, so we do not know what they said either. Mr. Fattah. Mr. Chairman, you are absolutely right. And I remember when the President said in the last election, two- thirds of the people did not vote. But the ones who did said you are going to chair this committee. Mr. Crenshaw. I believe in democracy. Mr. Serrano. I also remember an election that was decided in Florida by 500 votes, even though the other guy had gotten half a million more votes. Mr. Crenshaw. Ms. Herrera Beutler, you are recognized. Ms. Herrera Beutler. On that, one thing, you know, we had this whole argument about who spoke up and who did not speak up. Unfortunately, because of the Commission's actions, it seems to have been rendered moot. Because what I understood from the timeline, and this was one of my questions for Commissioner Pai, is that the commenters and the people who spoke up did not even get to see what they were talking about. I mean, what I was just told was that we, Members of Congress, weighed on this, but we were not even really released the rule until after you voted. So, to argue that you are somehow coming against 3 million Americans, they did not get to talk about this. It was hidden. It was withheld. It was not disclosed. Is that accurate? Mr. Pai. Congresswoman, I believe it is accurate. I think that many of the emails and letters we got, they had no idea of the full range of this Title II plan because it was not disclosed to the public. They had no idea exactly how we would cover interconnection; that it would tee up service plans for net neutrality violations; that it would include ex-post rate regulation; that it would include a lot of these different rules, which, now, we are seeing now the plan is public, some of the very same people, such as Netflix's CFO, Google's Chairman, just last week have said, I am a little antsy now about the government injecting itself into the Internet. And unfortunately, we had to pass it for the American people to see it. Ms. Herrera Beutler. I have heard this before: We have to pass it to see what is in it. And the last time I heard that, I shook my head, because I thought, this is not a good idea. And now, we are finding out what is in it. You know, along that same line, you know, aside from the President's declaration, I want to know, specifically, if there are any events that led to the policy, I would say, policy shift at the Commission. And we heard a timeline, May, November, and then February, and then the vote. And then we see it. In the spirit of transparency, is there a specific Commission meeting that I can point my constituents to and say, ``This is where it happened.'' This information was unearthed, and we had to evolve from point A to point B behind closed doors. Is there something I can point to them, and show them? Mr. Pai. Unfortunately, and I say this as somebody who both, as a commissioner and a staffer, cherishes the agency's independence, the seminal moment was the President's announcement on November 10th. That he had to plan for net neutrality, and he was asking the FCC to implement it. And that was the defining feature, I think, of this entire proceeding. Ms. Herrera Beutler. That is so disappointing. I have heard a very good discussion on, and I heard you mention, there are ways to make sure that consumers have choices, that they have better speeds, that they have better prices. We want to see that. We want to empower the consumers. And that is what actually has made the Internet great, is that it empowers consumers. It is not the government empowering them. It is not us choosing, picking, in choosing winners and losers. It is a free market tool that allows someone in their parents' basement, as was quoted over here, to compete, because of their idea and their innovation, with a well-established company. That is an amazing tool. And the reason you see such vigor defending it is because we do not want to screw it up. I mean, the reason I believe this country is where it is, is because of the free market opportunity. It levels the playing field, right? Mr. Pai. Right. Ms. Herrera Beutler. One of the things I am concerned about and, you know, we have talked about, I kind of want to put a different spin is everybody uses the Internet for different reasons. A grandmother in Castle Rock, in my district, small, rural area, may get online a couple times a week to check Facebook, to see pictures of her grandbabies. When I think about my mom, that is one of her uses, is to check up on her grandbabies. While a student at W.C. Vancouver may get online and want to download HD movies. Maybe they have 10 hours until their paper is due, and they need to do some serious research. Right? They need to spend some quality time on the Internet. What could the Open Internet Order's general conduct standard mean for service providers who want to offer varying pro- consumer plans to meet each individual's meets? I mean, are we raising the rates on grandma? Mr. Pai. I think, ultimately, Congresswoman, that is a key question. The Internet conduct standard is so vague that nobody knows exactly what it will proscribe and what it will permit. And I think, essentially, every Internet service provider in America is now going to have to funnel whatever creativity they have through the regulatory bottleneck of the FCC to figure out whether or not it is going to be allowed or not. The order itself tees up seven vaguely worded factors, such as the impact on free expression that any service plan might have. But if you are a small ISP in a rural area, first of all, you do not have the cash to hire lawyers and accountants to comply with these regulations. But second of all, even if you did, the time it would take for you to get an answer back from the FCC could be prohibitive. And ultimately, it is going to be to the detriment of those consumers who lack broadband options as it is. Ms. Herrera Beutler. Totally switching thoughts, question for Chairman Wheeler, you talked about reducing the number of field director positions from 21 to five, and the number of field offices from 24 to eight. I am very concerned, living on the West Coast, because it said you are going to have the tiger team in Maryland. They can get on a plane, but if you ever had to catch a plane last minute, or in inclement weather here, you are lucky if you get out and get to the West Coast, which is on a completely different time schedule. And as you can imagine, that is a major concern for me. I understand the field offices played significant role when we are talking about FAA administration, experiencing interference when it comes to our Doppler weather systems. How will the Commission continue to perform these important functions with this new plan? Particularly, in the Pacific Northwest, where, now we are going to have zero offices. Mr. Wheeler. Great. Thank you very much, Congresswoman. That is an excellent question. As you know, we have a field office in Seattle, today, staffed by one person. And that person costs $190,000 a year to maintain there, and has the second fewest cases of any field office in the country. Ms. Herrera Beutler. How many? How many? Mr. Wheeler. One R.F. case per week. We have one person. Ms. Herrera Beutler. So, about 52 cases in a year. And they serve all of Washington, or the whole Pacific Northwest? Mr. Wheeler. Pacific Northwest. Ms. Herrera Beutler. Okay. Mr. Wheeler. But, as I say, it is the second fewest of any. So, the question is, if we pre-position equipment there, and we can fly people in, what we are trying to do is to say, how do we evolve? Because 20 years ago, when this plan was put together, what the offices did was they went out, and they inspected broadcast records. Well, those are online now, so you do not have to do it. They went out and they made sure that the lights were on, and antennas. Well, there is now automated monitoring of that. And from those old style kinds of activities, the new responsibility has increasingly become spectrum. Ms. Herrera Beutler. So, those cases you are talking about, they are primarily spectrum cases? Mr. Wheeler. Spectrum cases. And those can get dealt with. There is a concern, you go in, and you deal with it, and then you move on to the next concern. Because they are not all in Seattle, as you know. They are all over the place. And so, today, we are flying people, or driving people, to deal with those cases. And we can do it from California, you know, as efficiently as we can, more efficiently, than we can from the other 24 offices. Ms. Herrera Beutler. I am going to watch this issue, because I have never wanted to be lumped in with California when it comes to dealing with any major concerns. They tend to really house their own challenges, and they need all their people to take care of their challenges. So, we like to maintain our autonomy. This is an issue I am going to be following closely. Thank you. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. And I think we have time for another round of questions, if people have questions. I mentioned in my opening remarks that our Internet market exceeds Europe's, both in competition and in investment. And Americans have more choices than their European counterparts. So that is a good point of comparison, I think in terms of global competition. But they have restrictive rules just like the ones that we are adopting, and yet, when you look, I think we have had four times as more capital investment, and twice as much investment in mobile. In Europe, there is less competition, less access. So, let me ask a question, Chairman Wheeler: you used to be president of, I think it is called the Cellular Telecommunications Internet Association, the CTIA. Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir. Mr. Crenshaw. And that is the trade association for the wireless industry. Mr. Wheeler. Yes, sir. Mr. Crenshaw. And a lot of people are surprised that, as that was your former job, that you would support not only classifying broadband Internet under Title II, but also wireless Internet. So, I am just curious, if you were still the CEO of CTIA, what would you be telling your membership about these rules? Mr. Wheeler. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me just clarify one thing. You said, I think, that Europe has rules just like the ones we are adopting. Mr. Crenshaw. Not just like. But I would say they have more restrictive rules than we do. Mr. Wheeler. Yes, and these rules do not move us towards that. We do not have rate regulation. We do not have Terrafin. We do not have unbundling. We do not have all those kinds of intrusive things. We do propose here is the same kind of concepts that Mr. Walden and Mr. Upton and others are saying, which is the no blocking, no throttling. Mr. Crenshaw. But more restrictive, you would admit to that, than we have now. Mr. Wheeler. And I hope that we are not going to have blocking and throttling, and that it is nothing like Europe. Two weeks ago, I met with all the European regulators, and I can assure you, it is nothing like what they have. But, let me answer your question. One of my ``Ah ha'' moments in this whole evolutionary process was my realization that Section 332, which while I was the president of CTIA I was advocating in behalf of the wireless industry for in this body, had done exactly what we ended up doing here, which was to declare wireless voice a Title II Common Carrier, and to forbear from unnecessary regulation from the old style of Title II. And that was a huge success. And so what we are doing is building on that model, and the success of that model, and saying that we think that will work for the Internet as well. Now, you ask the question, Why cover mobile? Because 55 percent of the access to the Internet is now from mobile. And if mobile is going to be the Internet's future, which we all believe it is, then we need to make sure that there is one set of rules, and that there is openness. I know from personal experience that in the early days of the mobile industry, in mobile data, that the carriers tried to build walled gardens, and that you could only get on the network if you agreed to pay some kind of tribute, in terms of revenue sharing. We cannot have that imposed on the Internet. And so the openness that all consumers have a right to, I believe, on the Internet, is not constrained by whether you get it by wire or over the air. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Let me just ask, Commissioner Pai to comment on that. In your view, do these rules seem to restrict competition? Are they more restrictive? I mean, in terms of competition, do you see them as a step back? And, I do not mean to say we are looking just like Europe, but comment on where you think that leads us in terms of competition and in terms of restrictions. Mr. Pai. That is a great question, Mr. Chairman. I think, with respect to the comparison, the mobile aspect is highly telling. In the United States, 86 percent of Americans have access to 4G/LTE. In Europe, that is only 63 percent, despite the fact that they have significantly higher population density. That 63 percent is up from where it was just a couple of years ago. Secondly, in America, we have 30 percent faster speeds than you do in Europe. Now also, with respect to the regulatory framework as applied to Europe, Europe does not have any mobile unbundling, all that kind of thing. So I think the regulatory comparison there is pretty apt. Secondly, in terms of competition, the American wireless marketplace is highly competitive. You see a great deal of competition on price. You see carriers spending billions of dollars upgrading their networks. You see spectrum auctions raising a lot of money, and the reason is, not because mobile voice was classified as a Title II service, I mean, voice is the least important driver of the mobile revolution. It is mobile data. And mobile data has been historically unregulated. It has not been a Title II service. And especially with the inception of the smart phone in 2007, what you saw was consumers realizing, ``Ah ha'' This device that I can take with me is suddenly a substitute for all kinds of other wired Internet connectivity. So now you see people streaming video on their iPads and the like. It is the mobile data revolution, driven by a light regulatory touch, that has really spurred all this investment in innovation. And that is what we are putting at risk when we say, Lump it in with the wired Internet access providers. We are essentially saying mobile is just another, you know, pipe, so to speak. It should be treated like the water company or the electric company. I do not know about you, but I certainly do not think of those companies as innovative as some of the wireless companies that have delivered us the ability to do all kinds of things on the smart phone. That they were unthinkable just a decade ago. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you very much. Mr. Serrano, do you have any further questions? Mr. Serrano. Chairman Wheeler, my Republican colleagues, and I say this with all due respect, gave Commissioner Pai a lot of time to speak about his opposition to net neutrality. I would like to give you a chance to respond to his comments. Also, can you comment on the public round tables you had? I understand there were six, and the reports and other information that was released by the FCC, regarding Title II, even before the President's announcement. Mr. Wheeler. Thank you very much, Mr. Serrano. A couple of things that I was lifting my finger for a moment ago. You know, I was an entrepreneur in my earlier life. I spent the decade before taking this job as a venture capitalist backing early stage Internet protocol-based companies. Through this process, I met with hundreds of innovative start-up companies and their financiers. And they were all uniform in the comment that permissionless innovation is what is key. That I do not have to go to the gatekeeper and say, Well, is this the kind of service that you will let through? Or is there a potential that you are going to charge my competitor something that will give him a leg up on me? And so, on the question that Commissioner Pai was asked earlier about the impact on innovation, the key to innovation is open access. And that is what we provide here. Secondly, there was a question about rates for Grandma. We are not going to regulate rates. Carriers are free to provide whatever packages they want. If they want to have an email only package, and all the way up to some kind of super-duper online real-time game playing package, I mean, that is fine. That is terrific. We hope to encourage that. And then, insofar as the other comments you made about round tables, we had half a dozen round tables. I was the only commissioner that was at every single one of them for every single minute. We brought in advocates on all sides, and had many hearings, if you will, to sit down and talk about technical issues, talk about legal issues, and talk about marketplace impact issues. And those were very helpful in informing the process. Mr. Serrano. Let me do something a little different, Mr. Chairman. For me to say that I did not know that this was going to turn into a net neutrality hearing would have been foolish, because I know that that is the issue of the day. It did turn into that. But let me end on perhaps an interesting note: what is next? To both of you, what new gadgets, what new toys? We know there is a watch coming. We know there is a car that is going to park itself, wash itself, run itself, and the whole thing. What is next, that the FCC will have to be looking at, and be ready for? Mr. Wheeler. You want to go first, or you want me to go first? Let us flip a coin. Go ahead. Mr. Crenshaw. Mr. Serrano, you better be careful. This is going to be some inside information. Mr. Wheeler. This is, you know, we got a couple. Mr. Serrano. But I am not investing in this, so. Mr. Crenshaw. Neither are we, just for the record. Mr. Wheeler. We got a couple of tech freaks up here. Mr. Pai. One of the things I am most excited about, Ranking Member Serrano, is unlicensed spectrum. I think the five gigahertz band in particular holds special promise for delivering some of these high bandwidth applications. Right now, we have some very complex issues related to the so-called U-NII-2B, and U-NII-4 bands, that if we can resolve them, will deliver a 195 megahertz of high delivery rate spectrum that could really revitalize Wi-Fi across the country. That is the thing that I am most excited about, in terms of the tech sector. Mr. Wheeler. I think it is the marriage of two things. One, the power of Moore's Law, and how computer chips are doubling in processing capacity every two years. Which means that, 15 years from now, they will be a thousand times more powerful than today, which is an amazing kind of thought. And secondly, wireless. And that those two coming together are the greatest transformational force that the planet has ever seen. And that it will enable the kinds of things that use the kind of spectrum that Commissioner Pai was talking about. That it will enable the things you and I have never even begun to contemplate. And everything will be connected. And everything will talk to everything else. And the most interesting things that flow out of that, then, are that creates new information. And so this becomes a network that by the provision of services creates a new asset, and that is the first time in history that has ever happened. And secondly, it creates great privacy issues that we collectively, in the Congress and in the Commission, are going to have to deal with. Mr. Serrano. And then, closing, Mr. Chairman, I know my time is up. We have questions for the record which we never go to, and I was part of it by asking the last question. I just hope that you do two things: that you continue to do the work you are doing, but that you also, both, the whole Commission, pays attention to our schools, pays attention to those who do not still have in this country access to the Internet, to provide it for them. And remember not to set the Territories apart from the United States. They get left behind on many occasions. You knew I had to get that in. So thank you so much. And I must tell you that my Twitter stream has a lot of people watching because they have called us a lot of names, and they are mostly positive. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you, Mr. Serrano. Now, Mr. Yoder has another question. Mr. Yoder. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to commend both of you on, I think, doing a very nice job today of laying out opposing viewpoints on an issue that is of critical importance to our country, and I think it is been nice to watch the interchange and debate, and I appreciate your testimony, both of you today. You articulated issues that, I think, have given both parties in this Congress things to think about, on the other side. I will say that what continues to give me pause, and I think the net neutrality debate is a very interesting one, is the potential camel's nose under the tent regarding future regulation. And I think even Chairman Wheeler, you would be wary of the FCC expanding these powers, I hope. And so whatever the FCC can do, you know, obviously, I have raised the issues of taxes and the USF fund. I have raised the issue of the cost to implement, but the potential to expand and control rates, and all these things, I think, would make many of the proponents of this net neutrality proposal regret that the FCC took those actions to get there, because it could ultimately be a net loss in terms of freedom and opportunity here. So it is not just net neutrality, I think that debate has been very interesting, it is what else could happen. And we have seen agency after agency in this government take very limited powers and figure out ways to expand them. It happens at the EPA. It happens at every federal agency. And we wonder how the regulatory agencies end up getting away with all this power, and they usually justify it by saying, well, someone gave us a broad power long ago, and we have the power to expand that within our own rules. And so I think Congress will really have to look at making sure that this expansion of power does not occur to some of these other potential problems that even proponents of net neutrality would be opposed to. That being said, I want to change the subject a little bit to the repacking spectrum issue. And Mr. Chairman, I think we can all agree that the broadcast incentive auctions are a very important process for spectrum allocation, public safety funding, and debt reduction. However, when Congress authorized the incentive auction we intended that local television stations that continue to serve their viewers and communities would be held harmless. Accordingly, Congress allocated $1.75 billion to the Television Broadcaster Relocation Fund, to cover the reasonable costs that stations will incur as a result of changing channels. Some have estimated though, using the FCC's own expert report as a basis, that repacking more than 13,000 stations to clear 84 megahertz of spectrum may cost more than $2.6 billion, leaving a shortfall of over a billion from the relocation fund, or more than $600,000 per station. If that is the case the auction was intended to be voluntary, but if stations are forced to cover the repacking costs, it does not seem very voluntary. So I guess my questions are, is there anything the FCC can do to limit the television station repacking to $1.75 billion, and if the incentive auction clears 84 megahertz of spectrum, will the relocation fund be sufficient to prevent broadcasters from being forced to go out of pocket? Mr. Wheeler. Do you want to try that? Mr. Yoder. Either way. Mr. Wheeler. In short the answer is that, as you point out, $1.75 billion is a statutory number that we have to live with. Many broadcasters have said to us that it is insufficient. We have worked with broadcasters and with the wireless industry to say, Is there a way we can have an insurance fund? We cannot redirect auction revenues to do that. So we said to the wireless industry, You guys are going to be the beneficiaries here. You are buying it, okay? Understanding that it is going to result in a decrease probably in what you would pay overall, but why don't you guys create some kind of an insurance fund? They have not been interested in doing that. This is an issue that we are going to have deal with. We have a whole set of rule-makings that will percolate over the next half a dozen months leading to an auction this time next year. And the other part about it is if Congress can help us with this, raise your hand and say, ``We would love to work with you on it''. Mr. Crenshaw. Commissioner. Mr. Pai. I would add that this simply accentuates the importance of structuring the auction in a way that tailors the repacking to that $1.75 billion budget because for every dollar above $1.75 billion that comes out of the broadcasters' pocket will get taken out on the viewers of the stations, who have to see less local news, et cetera, and so I think it is important for us $1.75 billion as a marker, unless and until there are other initiatives that Congress sees fit to adopt. Mr. Yoder. Thank you. Thank you, both. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw. Mr. Graves. Mr. Graves. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I would like to agree with Mr. Yoder on your discussion today. Each of you have done a wonderful job of explaining your positions eloquently. And you clearly know the other person's opposing views very well, too. Mr. Wheeler. Mr. Graves, we are getting a lot of practice. Mr. Graves. You are getting a lot of time together. But you have been very respectful. I know each of you have to one another. And this is a very passionate issue for a lot of different reasons. And in my case, I mean clearly, I appreciate Mr. Pai's position, your advocacy, and side with you on that, and the reason primarily is I believe whenever you have very difficult, challenging decisions, such as the Commission was faced with in this, it is better to err on the side of less government intrusion in the marketplace. I just do not think you can go wrong when you lean in that direction, you err in that direction, when there is clearly a lot of questions out there. But, if I could just follow up with one other item, and then make a statement, Mr. Chairman, because I think it is about transparency. A lot of this debate has been about transparency and, you know, in our district, my constituents want to know things are transparent, and they feel the overbearing federal government and particularly here, as an appropriator, transparency is going to be extremely important to us as a committee. And so Commissioner Pai, you have said in the past orders issued by bureau of the FCC could always go to the full Commission for a vote. Is that still the case today? Mr. Pai. It can, yes, if there is an application for review that is filed, the agency can address the bureau's decision. Mr. Graves. And so transparencies will exist in that case? Mr. Pai. I certainly hope so, and I think in addition to transparency, dispatch is a critical part of it. We cannot just let that application sit there forever. And so that is something that, working together, we have been able to accomplish. Mr. Graves. Well, I believe Ms. Herrera Beutler brought up a great point about how there was a lack of transparency. It is the appearance and perception and probably likelihood that the Commission votes on something that is not released until a few weeks later, and that causes a lot of questions. And so, Chairman Wheeler, just know that the sentiment among my constituents is distrust. It really is. It is with the President, it is with the administration, and I know Mr. Serrano had a point earlier. I mean, Mr. Pai had a point earlier about, it was three to one supported this process. Well, if I remember right, it was entitled Open Internet Order. Who is not for an open Internet? And so that is where transparency and distrust sort of collide. Because you feel like, yeah, I am for an open Internet, and now, there is this collision of ideas out there that say, ``No, it is not that''. It is going to destroy the Internet, or it is going to create these burdens or barriers out there. So in this case with the FCC, I do not believe technology should be partisan whatsoever. This should be a bi- partisan effort. And it is my belief that if there were changes made to the process, if there were perimeters in place to ensure transparency, then it would be much easier for myself, and I know my colleagues here on this panel, and the Chairman of the Committee here, to embrace the budget request as you have presented. But lacking that I imagine there are going to be some changes made, or suggestions, and we are going to continue this debate in the future. So, Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the time today. Mr. Wheeler. Do you want me to respond? Mr. Crenshaw. Feel free. Mr. Wheeler. I thank you for very valid point, Mr. Graves. I think there is a misunderstanding about the process that we followed. The process we followed insofar as the release of the item is the process that has been followed for every other preceding at the FCC, large and small, you know, whatever it is. And the information leading up to it was the most open and transparent debate that we have had. I mean, we had full involvement from members of Congress. I mean, I was constantly up here, being told what to do. And I appreciate entirely your point about openness because it is the key to credibility. Mr. Crenshaw. Commissioner Pai. Mr. Pai. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think transparency is a critical issue because it goes to the basic question of can citizens trust their government. And in this case, part of the reason why I said that the plan should be made public so that the American public can weigh in on it, on its particulars, not just the concept, was because it affects something so critical to American life. And that is why I think it is significant that, for example, Peter Hart, a respected Democratic pollster, found that 79 percent of Americans, regardless of what they thought of the actual rules, thought that the net neutrality plan should be made public. And tellingly by a 23 percent margin, they believed that they order itself was inappropriate, that we should have gone a different way. Now moving forward, the question is, how do we change our processes if at all? And one of the things I have heard a lot about, and I agree with, is that going forward the FCC should do something similar to what Congress does. When you drop a piece of legislation you put it on the website. People can comment on it. Then you have a markup for everything. All the language is out there for people to see. Well, what if the FCC did something similar? Three weeks before a scheduled FCC vote, we say, Here is the proposal we are going to be voting on. The actual document. America, tell us what you think, and we would be happy to get your input. And then by the time we vote no one can say that they were not apprised fully of all the particulars. That is something where, even if people do not agree with what the FCC ultimately does, nonetheless, they would have the ability to say that they were informed about what was about to happen, and that can go a long way to restoring trust. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. And, I have one last question about direct appropriations. I think, as Mr. Serrano pointed out, we have talked a lot about net neutrality, which is a rule. But as we said early on this is the committee that decides where the money comes from to go to do things, like proposing rules. So let me get back to just one last specific, appropriations aspect. And that is the move, the restacking, or the move. There is a $44 million request there, and I think it points out that it will cost $71 million over a two year period to move, and ultimately, that will save $119 million over a 15 year period. So just for the record, tell us a little bit about how you come up with those numbers? Does GSA? Where do those numbers come from, and where are we? I think OMB is reviewing that now. Mr. Wheeler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is a process that we are working through with GSA. I mean, we are not the landlord experts here. Mr. Crenshaw. Not the real estate people. Mr. Wheeler. We are not the real estate people. But our Office of the Managing Director, working together with GSA, has developed these numbers. And we are following the processes of GSA in terms of what you do about location/relocation, or whatever. Mr. Crenshaw. Got you. Well, if there are no further questions, let me just add my words. Mr. Serrano. Mr. Serrano. Can I just say, very briefly, because I do not want to take advantage of the Chairman. Are we getting any closer to the kill switch on smart phones? For those who may not remember, the kill switch is an issue where phones are stolen here, are sent overseas in many cases, they restart it over there. And the kill switch would not allow that to happen. I know some manufactures are doing it on their own. Are we getting any closer? I know you guys have been talking about it. Mr. Wheeler. So Mr. Serrano, July of this year, carriers have told us that all phones going forward will have remote lock, wipe, and restore capabilities. Beyond that, however, there is a standards group in the wireless industry called 3GPP, which has said that they will come back by the end of this year with an identification system that is even better than that, and becomes like the non-wipeable vehicle identification number that we now have on automobiles, that were so successful on automobile thefts. So we are making progress. Mr. Serrano. Yeah, what we are hoping for is, you know, close to this, that it is the kind of technology that does not allow someone to just wipe it and locks it, and does not allow anyone anywhere else to restart it. Mr. Chairman, Commissioner Bratton from New York at a press conference we had with the Attorney General of many states, says that 30 percent of all robberies in New York City were with smart phones. Mr. Crenshaw. Well, again, thank you for your testimony today. Thank you for the important work that you do. And we appreciate you being here to share that with us today. This hearing is adjourned. [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Wednesday, April 15, 2015. SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION WITNESS HON. MARY JO WHITE, CHAIR, SECURITIES AND EXCHANGE COMMISSION Mr. Crenshaw. The meeting will come to order. I want to welcome today our witness, SEC Chair Mary Jo White. We thank you for being here today. The committee always likes to see you, and I am sure there will be a lot of things that we will want to discuss. The Securities and Exchange Commission plays a particularly important role of encouraging capital formation, maintaining fair markets, and protecting investors. A well-functioning SEC is critical to keeping U.S. markets sound and operating efficiently. For the fiscal year 2016 the SEC is requesting a $222 million increase, or a 15 percent increase over 2015. And while the SEC is fee funded, I take our oversight responsibilities seriously, and as we have seen with other agencies, including the SEC, it is not always just how much money that you receive, but it is how you spend that money that you receive. And as you recall, in 2015 this subcommittee was fairly generous. There was a $150 million increase, or about 11 percent, and I think since 2001 the agency has received an increase of about 255 percent, which is probably more than most other agencies in the Federal Government. So as we discuss your fiscal year 2016 request, we want to hear from you exactly how you are going to spend that money, and why last year's increase didn't carry you through. On a positive note, for the last 2 years this committee has set aside funding to fully fund the Division of Economic and Risk Analysis. We think that cost-benefit analysis of SEC rulemakings is very important, and I am glad to hear these funds have been used to do more analysis of the Commission's activities. While we have a lot to talk about today, I am especially interested in hearing your thoughts on market liquidity or illiquidity, and what the SEC is doing to address this issue. I have heard that burdensome and overlapping regulations are creating a lack of liquidity in the U.S. markets and on our job creators, and if we don't address that in a timely and consistent manner, then illiquidity could introduce potentially damaging volatility to our markets that could have far-reaching impacts on our ability to grow the economy, and, quite frankly, would be contrary to the SEC's mission of fostering access to capital. I am also concerned a little bit by certain decisions made by the Financial Stability Oversight Council, the so-called FSOC. You are a member of that. FSOC's regulations affect entities under the SEC's supervision. And I am not sure that all of the FSOC's actions are matching its mission. Because the process of designating systematically important financial institutions is important, and it has some troubling implications. Entities should be given the opportunity to address the systemic risk before they are designated. I don't think you should just be in the business of only designating more SIFIs. You should be looking for ways to mitigate systemic risk for the good of our economy as a whole. I want to bring one more thing to your attention, two letters that I sent, along with my counterpart in the Senate, Senator Boozman. We wrote a letter that talked about believing the SEC should take the lead on addressing the Department of Labor's proposed rule to amend the definition of fiduciary. I would argue that Dodd-Frank gave the SEC the responsibility of studying and potentially developing a uniform fiduciary standard of care for broker-dealers and investment advisers, not the Department of Labor. But I have read that you believe that broker-dealers and investment advisers should be held to a similar fiduciary standard and maybe are working on crafting a rule on this important issue. So I hope we can discuss that as we move forward. I also sent a letter to Chairman Ketchum of the Financial Industry Regulatory Authority, the so-called FINRA, on their proposed central database rule. Now, they are a self-regulatory organization, a so-called SRO, and I am concerned that the SEC sometimes addresses critical market structure issues by delegating the responsibility to SROs. I am sure that part of the reason may be that you want to protect your resources. But, again, just more money is not the only way to solve problems. I think you could have reforms as simple as allowing affected market participants to provide meaningful input. That could improve the governance structure, and I hope to learn more about that. You are the securities regulator and expert. I expect the SEC to be leading the charge to help further grow our economy. You have a central role in helping businesses and investors gain access to capital and participate in securities markets, as well as protecting U.S. investors from the bad guys. That is an important responsibility, and I know you take it very seriously. So we appreciate what your staff does, and appreciate you being here today. I look forward to your testimony. Now I would like to turn to my good friend and ranking member, Mr. Serrano, for any open statement that he might like to make. Mr. Serrano. Thank you, Chairman Crenshaw. I join you in welcoming Chair White back before the subcommittee to testify on the fiscal year 2016 budget request for the Securities and Exchange Commission. Usually we have the IRS visit us on tax day, but we have changed it up a bit this year. Besides, they scare everybody in the room regardless. The SEC plays a pivotal role in ensuring fairness, openness, and truth in our financial markets. As the markets have grown more complex, and as new technologies have taken root, the needs of the agency have grown as well. I am pleased that last year this committee was able to come together and provide a substantial increase in funding for the agency, with a total of $1.58 billion in fiscal year 2015, an increase of $150 million over fiscal year 2014. Although the funding increases were helpful in enabling the SEC to rigorously enforce the law, last year's appropriations process was a source of much concern as well. In fiscal year 2015, a series of controversial riders were added to this portion of the bill, which limited SEC activities in a whole host of areas. Additionally, one amendment made in committee, which I oppose, was simply the legislative text of authorizing legislation. Although most of the riders were removed, the authorizing language remained in the final text of the bill. That language opened up loopholes in Dodd-Frank and once again allowed certain types of risky financial transactions to be made by financial institutions without sufficient protections from the Federal Government. Many House Democrats opposed the omnibus bill last year because of this provision, including myself. And I must say that we were on our way to having a bill which probably was going to be as bipartisan as we have had an appropriation bill in years, and this one provision stopped us from doing that, which is so important. It was the single biggest impediment to bipartisan agreement in the House. I believe that further attempts to limit the SEC's ability to protect financial markets and the economy would greatly harm the prospects for a Financial Services appropriations bill. This year's request asks for further targeted investments that will help the SEC protect consumers and investors. I always like to say that the SEC is the cop on the beat for Wall Street. If I may extend the analogy, the amount of territory the SEC is required to cover grows each year, and the agency needs more cops to enforce the law properly. Chair White, I fully support your request to increase the number of personnel in enforcement and compliance, as well as in other key areas. Your proposed budget is key to ensuring the safety and security of America's financial markets and the economy as a whole, and I hope that this subcommittee takes your request seriously. Lastly, before I finish, I think everyone here needs a reminder about the problems that sequestration caused the SEC. The agency was severely hampered by these mandatory budget cuts, and that put our economy needlessly at risk. We cannot allow another sequester to return. Otherwise we simply increase the risk of another financial meltdown. The SEC is a vital piece of our efforts to ensure the safety, security, and fairness of our financial system. We have given the agency significant new responsibilities over the past few years, but without the proper resources they cannot adequately enforce the law. Chair White, once again welcome, and I look forward to your testimony. And thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. We now turn to Chair White for your opening statement. The floor is yours. Ms. White. Thank you very much, Chairman Crenshaw, Ranking Member Serrano, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for inviting me to testify today in support of the President's fiscal year 2016 budget request for the Securities and Exchange Commission. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss both what I believe is the compelling basis for funding the agency at a level of $1.72 billion and how the SEC would effectively use the requested funds in the coming fiscal year. The U.S. securities markets are complex and constantly evolving, and the activities within our jurisdiction are not static. Understanding the growth in the size and complexity of the SEC's responsibilities and in our markets, market participants, and investment products is critical to assessing the agency's funding needs. From fiscal year 2001 to the start of this fiscal year, for example, assets under management of SEC-registered investment advisers increased approximately 254 percent, from $17.5 trillion to approximately $62 trillion. Assets under management of mutual funds grew by 143 percent, from $6.4 trillion to $15.6 trillion. And annual trading volume in the equity markets more than doubled, in excess of $67 trillion. During this same time the scope of the SEC's responsibilities also dramatically increased. The agency now currently oversees more than 25,000 market participants and has new or expanded jurisdiction over securities-based swaps, private fund advisers, credit rating agencies, municipal advisors, and clearing agencies, among others. There are also longstanding agency needs, including having sufficient resources to examine the 11,600 investment advisers regulated by the SEC. Improvements to technology and operations have made the agency more efficient and effective, but to continue to fulfill our mission we must be able to keep pace with the size and complexity of our markets and the entities participating in them. The SEC's fiscal year 2016 budget request would allow us to build on our recent progress and advance several key priority areas, including increasing examination coverage of investment advisers and other key entities who serve retail and institutional investors. A decade ago the SEC had approximately 20 examiners per trillion dollars of assets under management, while today we have only 7. We would also be able to further leverage technology to increase the efficiency and effectiveness of our programs, increase the protection of investors by expanding our enforcement programs investigative capabilities and strengthening our ability to hold wrongdoers accountable, strengthen the SEC's economic and risk analysis functions, critical functions for the agency, and hire the experts necessary to enhance the agency's ability to meet its expanded and increasingly complex responsibilities. Since I testified before this committee last April, the SEC has accomplished a great deal. Over the last year, the Commission has adopted a series of very important rulemakings, including a number mandated by the Dodd-Frank Act and the JOBS Act. Completing critical reforms to money market funds, credit rating agencies, and asset-backed securities, and significant enhancements to market resiliency and Regulation A were among the agency's accomplishments this past year. In other core areas, we advanced our assessment of U.S. equity market structure to ensure that our markets remain the deepest and fairest in the world, and intensified our efforts to improve the market structure for trading fixed income securities. SEC staff also significantly progressed in developing measures for enhancing risk monitoring and regulatory safeguards for the asset management industry, advanced our initiative to improve the effectiveness of the public company disclosure regime, and neared completion of its comprehensive review of the accredited investor definition. Our Division of Enforcement also achieved very significant results, bringing 755 enforcement actions and obtaining orders for more than $4.16 billion in disgorgement and penalties in fiscal year 2014, both at record levels. These accomplishments represent substantial achievements for the agency, but more remains, and there are significant funding challenges as we strive to maintain and intensify this momentum. As I have outlined in detail in my written testimony, the SEC's 2016 budget request seeks to address those challenges really head-on by providing the resources that will allow the SEC to hire an additional 431 staff in core areas, including 180 for investment adviser exams and to further advance our information technology. The SEC's funding mechanism is deficit neutral, which means that the amount Congress appropriates to the SEC will not have an impact on the Nation's budget deficit, will not impact the amount of funding available for other agencies, and does not count against the caps set in the bipartisan congressional budget framework for 2015 and 2016. Nonetheless, and responsive to the chairman's comment, I fully understand that we have an important responsibility to be effective and prudent stewards of the funds the agency is appropriated, and I believe we have demonstrated that we take that responsibility quite seriously. I want to thank this subcommittee's support for the agency's vital mission, and I would be happy to answer your questions. [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Crenshaw. Well, thank you very much. Mr. Serrano, do you have a thought? Mr. Serrano. Mr. Chairman, I apologize for interrupting you and I thank you. I think one of the things that makes this country great is that we deal with our past and we try to correct mistakes we have made in the past. I would just like, as a baseball fan and as an American, to remind people that on April 15, 1947, Jackie Robinson took the field for the first time. Some would say he integrated baseball. I think he played a major role in integrating America, and I think all of us owe him and his memory and his legacy a great debt of gratitude. So I know at a hearing for the SEC the farthest thing from our mind is baseball, but I think April 15 is not just tax day. It is the day that Jackie Robinson changed America forever. Thank you. Mr. Crenshaw. Well, thank you. And I can assure you that Chair White appreciates that as a big baseball fan. Unfortunately, she is a Yankees fan, so she is struggling this year. Ms. White. Already. Mr. Serrano. So am I. Mr. Crenshaw. So am I. Well, thank you for that. Let's start with some questions. I mentioned in my opening statement about the fiduciary standard, that I wrote a letter to OMB Director Donovan. I am concerned about the Department of Labor deciding they are going to amend the definition of fiduciary. In my view, Dodd-Frank gave the SEC the responsibility to do that, to study it, to potentially develop a uniform definition, and DOL seems to be moving on their own. In my view, the SEC ought to move first because my concern is that you end up with, like we have on occasion, regulatory conflict; two different rules. And I don't know what the impacts are going to be on ordinary investors. So what I want to know is, is this something that you all are aware of, that you are making a priority, that you are doing the necessary work on, and are you coordinating with DOL as they move along ahead of you. Because here is the thing: it seems like everybody wants to protect investors from market risk, and inherently markets are risky. So I am not sure that you can protect investors against all losses just because you have a different standard in terms of fiduciary relationship. So we want to be reasonable. Tell us a little bit about how closely you are looking at the existing regulations, why they are not sufficient, why we need to amend that definition, and primarily what kind of impact might it have on low- to moderate-income investors if all of a sudden they get priced out of the brokerage services. Ms. White. And I think, Mr. Chairman, that it is an extraordinarily important area and potential rulemaking for the benefit of investors, fairness of our marketplace, and particularly as our investors, our retail investors in particular, have their retirement savings much more invested in the market than ever before. This is an issue the SEC has been looking at for actually many, many years and has sought and received a lot of very useful data. I think I said at the time of my confirmation hearing, when I was introduced to this issue, that I thought that, knowing that we had the authority, not a mandate--under Section 913 of Dodd-Frank to impose that uniform fiduciary duty on broker-dealers and investment advisers, really to act in the best interests of the investor, putting the professional's interest secondary to that, that I thought as a regulator you had to think long and hard when you are really talking about essentially identical activity, providing advice, securities advice, personalized advice to investors, particularly in the retail space. You had to think long and hard about not having identically high standards. So that is sort of where I come from on that. Now, having said that, we have continued to study it. I have intensively studied this really throughout my tenure with the staff. It is a hard, complex issue. And I do think, my own view, and I am speaking for myself now, because this is something to be advanced within the Commission, and Commissioners have different views on a number of topics, but I think we should proceed with it. I think we should proceed under Section 913, which itself contains a number of parameters that really are addressed to the existing marketplace, and particularly the existing broker-dealer model. For example, it is not to be considered a per se violation of any fiduciary standard that you charge a commission. Achieving the right balance is very, very difficult to do. And obviously if at the end of the day what we succeeded in doing was applying a new standard, but we essentially deprived investors, particularly the smaller investors, the mid-size investors, of reliable, reasonably priced advice, we would have failed in that effort. So those are issues that we have been focused on and we will be focused on as we go forward. The other part of this, and I have said this publicly, is that I think what we need to be sure of is that we are sufficiently examining those investment advisers that I spoke about earlier. And so I have asked the staff to actually provide a recommendation on some kind of program of third party exams to supplement what we can do there, because if you have a uniform fiduciary duty, you have to ensure compliance and enforcement with that. The Department of Labor, what we have done on that front is we provided pretty extensive, at the staff level, technical assistance as they have gone through their process. They had a proposal, as you know, in 2010. I think yesterday the reproposal was published. So we provided extensive technical assistance to them on that, bringing our expertise of the broker-dealer space to bear on that. But they are a separate agency, and so they have to decide under their own statutory mandate, which is an important one, over the ERISA retirement accounts, how and when to proceed. I agree with you, though, that it is very important for the agencies to continue to consult and coordinate. Mr. Crenshaw. So you are working to coordinate that, you are giving them assistance, but they are proceeding. You are proceeding a little more cautiously and more, I would hope, in depth. They just decided they are going to run out and pass a rule. Ms. White. Well, I would say this. I mean, the staff provided the technical assistance. The staff reported to me that the Department of Labor was responsive to receiving that assistance. We really are at the beginning of this process with my decision to advance it within the Commission. I am one of five votes, obviously. But we will proceed if we are proceeding, and that is my intent, to proceed very carefully, balancing all of the considerations. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Let me ask you a question about the budget. I mentioned a $222 million, 15 percent increase. That is 431 new staff positions. Now, last year you got a pretty generous increase, and this subcommittee was happy to help in that regard. I looked at the last quarter report and the SEC has $69 million in carryover funding left over from fiscal year 2015. I am going to ask if that is still the case. Then you have got this reserve fund that you can tap into, $100 million, anytime you want to that is outside the appropriations process, that is there for you. So the point is you have a lot of resources, and as I pointed out earlier your budget has increased even long before you got there, but over a 13-, 14-year period it has gone up 255 percent. So maybe tell us a little bit how you go about, when you put your budget together, what do you look at in terms of your ability to be more efficient, more effective, cut costs, and things like that. Ms. White. We go through a very thorough budget process, and since I arrived at the Commission have looked really across the agency for both what are our most compelling needs, as well as for cost savings. And so we are doing that across the agency. We have achieved a number of savings by our investment in technology, other changes to our business practices, and I think that is very important to do. And again I very much appreciate the subcommittee's support on last year's budget. What we had requested was, I think, 639 positions. I think we got 208. But, again, very appreciative of what we did get. But I just want to assure the subcommittee that before we put that budget or this budget together, I went over it in great detail and tried--I use the word surgical, and that is the word I mean--to really try to pinpoint what we are asking for. One of the reasons I went through, and I think it is in my written testimony as well, some of the metrics about our responsibilities and how our markets have evolved and our added responsibilities is to try to show the case, the compelling case, for precisely what we have asked for. I mean, the one subject we talk about, and I think we did last year as well, that kind of has sort of jumped out at you, is our ability, even with those increases, to cover or not be able to sufficiently cover examinations of investment advisers. Our current budget request, and I think I mentioned this, I did mention this in my oral testimony, 180 of those positions that we asked for would go precisely to that clear stark need. Our other needs are also ones where I think we have shown the value add from what we are seeking to further invest in and really further to continue, for example, the requests for additional resources for our Division of Economic and Risk Analysis. Our DERA group is a huge success story at the SEC. It is our fastest growing division. It not only helps us on our rulemakings, which I think everyone talks about and knows about, makes us a better rulemaker, but they are also managing a large amount of data risk metric tools for all of the divisions. And so that is another area that we are very focused on. We do have new responsibilities to implement, as I indicated in my oral testimony. So we have tried to make it a conservative statement of what our real compelling needs are. Mr. Crenshaw. Do you ever have a problem, like with 431 new positions, is that hard to fill in a short period of time? Ms. White. It certainly can be a challenge. And, again, one of the things that I spend a lot of personal time on when we do our request is assessing if we are given the funding for this, which we think we so badly need, can we hire them. We are an agency unlike many of the other Federal agencies that have no- year funds. So one of your points, about balances, and I can talk to that as well, if we get to the end of the year, and to some degree it depends on when we get our appropriations, as to when we are able to spend money, but if we get to the end of the year where we haven't spent all the money we have been appropriated, we can actually have it carry over. So we are doing smarter hiring, frankly. The last thing we want to do is just fill those positions and not with the right experts and the right people. And so we attend to the balances that we have, they have been going down over time. I think about $21 million of the balances for this year are actually from great financial planning, from de-obligating moneys on completed contracts. So that is $21 million of it. But we do take into account those balances in planning the budget request and planning the next budget year. One of our requests in this budget year, as it has been in at least a prior year since I have been here, is to add the necessary HR resources so we really could hire that many people smartly. It depends to some extent on when we would get our appropriation. Mr. Crenshaw. Do you ever--and I know you don't have a crystal ball because you would invest in the market if you did--but do you ever see, when you look down the road, do you see a time when there won't be as great a need for increased funding, is that something you think about, or do you just take it year by year? Will there be a time when the budget stops growing, or is that hard to tell? Ms. White. I mean, we certainly don't have a number that we say once we are at that additional resources aren't needed. And, again, that kind of goes back to the fact that we have got evolving, increasingly large, complex markets to deal with. If that changes, we may get new additional responsibilities. We certainly aren't asking for resources in order to grow for growth's sake. I mean, for example, on the investment adviser front, clearly our planning is a multiyear plan. It is not as if we won't be here next year trying to further close that gap. I think if we got the funding we are seeking this year, we think we could increase our exam coverage from 10 percent to 14 percent. But if you look on the broker-dealer side, with our resources and FINRA's, we are about 50 percent a year in terms of who we examine. I can't tell you that isn't an area, as well as a number of the others, where we are going to need for at least some years to come additional funding, but we look at that very, very closely because we are not in the business of just saying let's grow to grow. Mr. Crenshaw. Got you. Thank you so much. Mr. Serrano. Mr. Serrano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chair White, you have been at the SEC in very uncertain budgetary times. Can you remind us the effects that sequestration had on the SEC and what cuts would you have to make to get to sequestration levels? What would you not be able to do if the SEC budget was reduced back down to that level? And let me just say that I am still one of the perhaps few believers that it was a lack of oversight by the SEC that helped cause part of the problem on Wall Street that has led us into the situation that we still find ourselves in. In fact, I tell a story which changes a little bit every year, but is still sticking pretty much to the truth. The SEC is the first agency I have ever seen in my 41 years of public office, both in the state assembly and here, to come before us one year and basically tell us they didn't need any more money. And later we found out it was because they weren't using any money for oversight. And so on the long term, what do you see? And on the short term, what do you have to deal with? Ms. White. Let me be clear that wasn't me that came and said we don't need any more money. Mr. Serrano. Oh, no, no. That was quite a while ago. Ms. White. Because, again, I am obviously trying to carry out the responsibilities, and they are critical ones, to the investing public and our markets with sufficient fundings, and the resources are a significant challenge. Sequestration clearly had a significant negative effect on the SEC, and it would again. I think everything you see us prioritizing in this budget request and the last one either were compromised or would be compromised if sequestration were to occur again. It means there is not staff to do those exams where something, some huge fraud may be occurring, and because we are not there, we don't have the resources to be there, we don't catch it as soon as we would otherwise. And that is true of enforcement, as well as our exam program. Our technology projects, which are so critical to getting the SEC to where it needs to be to keep pace with the market and the market participants, a number of those projects had to be what I would call underfunded and clearly retarded and slowed that progress. I think everybody--maybe not everybody-- but most people agree that having the SEC raise our own technology bar is necessary to keep up with the markets. I think I read something recently where four of the largest investment banks spend $7 billion to $10 billion a year on IT alone. Our whole budget request is $1.7 billion. And, obviously, those are our registrants, those are the people that we are proceeding against. So really every priority area that you see we had to cut back and slow down our spending and therefore our progress on those. Obviously, we always try to do the least damage to our core mission priorities when we are faced with a situation like that. Mr. Serrano. Notwithstanding all these problems, do you think we are in better shape now? And maybe this is just a question, a softball. Are we in better shape now than we were before meltdown? Are we more vigilant? Or is this something like a street situation where every day I am amazed at how people on the street find a new way to come up with something outside the law. Is Wall Street the same way? As we speak now, are some folks trying to figure out a way to get around the system? Ms. White. Well, as a cop on the beat, and also as a person who has been around the securities industry either on the public side or the private side for about 40 years, I mean, you always have to keep up. There is always innovation. Some of that innovation is very good for capital formation and otherwise, but some of it is a new form of very complex wrongdoing, that you have to be able to be there with the right tools, the right personnel to be able to address that. Are we better off? I think we are better off. I mean, to go back to your initial question, certainly in terms of some of the systemic risks we have talked about, that is something that all the regulators are very, very focused on. I think in terms of enforcement, in sort of catching the next big fraud that may contribute to a crisis or certainly investor harm, at the SEC we certainly are in a better position. We have our TCR automized system to deal with tips and complaints and referrals in a way that we were not able to do before the crisis, or at least were not doing before the crisis. That has been enormously successful. Our whistleblower program I think has been enormously successful. So we are stronger than we were, but one does not rest easy on that. Mr. Serrano. Right. Let me ask you something very quickly. You are requesting 93 new positions in enforcement, 225 in compliance, 7 in corporate finance, and 12 each in trading and markets and investment. Could you please explain briefly what function these will serve and why they are needed? Ms. White. And, again, these are all core areas. I have talked a bit about already in terms of the inspections and examinations. We seek a total, I think, 225 positions there, and we examine, besides investment advisers that we have talked so much about, the 11,600, broker-dealers, SROs, exchanges, clearing agencies. So that is really just to be able to carry out those critical examination functions that are rightly assigned to the SEC, and mean so much to investor protection, both retail and institutional. So that is a critical need and it is the largest number you see in our budget request. Enforcement. There are three areas that we consider to be critical to enhance. One is in our intelligence analysis that we do in enforcement. That relates to how much more complex the products are becoming, the strategies are becoming, in order to keep up with those in, if not real-time, near real-time, to be able to detect them, prevent them, prevent them more quickly. It is the same for the request within that 93 for additional investigative personnel. And then we are going to trial more than we have in the past. I think last year we had 30 trials compared to 17 the year before. Why is that? Hard to say. But it is something that I think may be a function of the fact that we have targeted individuals more. Individuals tend to go to trial more than institutions do. I think we have sought more aggressive remedies, including admissions, as you know. You must have a credible, strong litigation arm in order to be able to do everything else you do in that space. Mr. Serrano. Right. Mr. Chairman, I just going to ask one more question very quickly. It is part of my mantra, which is the territories. Whenever we think about what Congress does, it is the 50 States, and then the territories are left out. When it comes to the SEC, is the vigilance the same as it is for the 50 States, both in help and in watching out for wrongdoing? Ms. White. We have tried to prioritize that, to be sure that is the case. And certainly we are very focused on Puerto Rico now and the bondholders there in terms of the crisis that has occurred there. We do a lot of outreach to the territories. Maybe not enough, but we certainly try to focus as many resources on it as we can. Mr. Serrano. Now, when you say maybe not enough, is that just part of the usual behavior that Congress and the Federal Government has had towards the territories or was there something unique to the SEC? Ms. White. No. When I say that, it is really kind of my same theme of we have to use our resources wisely. They are scare resources. I do think we are underresourced, and we try to deploy them as effectively as we can. So if I were to say are we spending enough time with investors in a particular State, I would say the same thing, we do as much as we can with the resources we have. Mr. Serrano. All right. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Womack, and then Mr. Bishop. Mr. Womack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, Madam Chair, it is always great to have you here. Always look forward to your testimony. Thanks for the work that you do. Just a couple of questions here up front that are totally separate. One: As you know, a few years ago we had several trading glitches that occurred because of different types of mistakes. Whether it was the ``flash crash,'' as we know it, the night trading mistake, or problems caused by what a lot of people refer to as ``fat fingers,'' errors highlighted gaps that existed in the SEC's regulatory regime. As a result of these treading errors, two separate industry groups were formed to examine what could be done to address them--one by the DTCC, the other by the New York Stock Exchange. These two industry groups developed a number of suggestions for addressing the problems. Would it be a good alternative to have the SEC establish a uniform core set of detailed policies across the trading venues? Ms. White. There could not be a higher personal priority that I have in terms of increasing the resiliency of our critical market infrastructures. One of the--and I think I mentioned it in my oral testimony--one of the rulemakings that I was very pleased to have done in this past year is our Regulation SCI, which basically for the first time makes the SEC rules mandatory across those critical market infrastructures to increase the resiliency if something occurs, including how to respond and where to respond. It increases our oversight as well. I would also say that when we had the incident with the NASDAQ SIP in, I think, August of 2013, I called in the CEOs of the various exchanges and really quite collaboratively urged them to review not only the SIPs for greater resiliency, to audit them and assess what changes should be made, but also to review all other critical market infrastructures. What do you do at the close? What do you do on IPOs? And a longer list. And we got back, I think in November of that year, a number of short-term, and long-term initiatives, that they either have carried out, in consultation with the SEC, or are in the process of carrying out. I mean, that again is something that we can't be complacent about because the marketplace changes all the time, as well. And I think the input from the New York Stock Exchange and DTCC has been enormously helpful. Mr. Womack. So has the SEC implemented all of the recommended changes? I assume not. Ms. White. I think not all of the changes. I mean, I have to go back and sort of see which ones of ours we have encompassed in the various undertakings, what we have done. So I can't detail those as I sit here today. But we are really in constant dialogue with them and other market participants, I think, in a very constructive way. It is a market confidence issue as well, and one of the things that you find is, I think, folks will jump to conclusions as to what is causing a particular systems issue. Is it high-frequency trading? Is it something else? It may well have nothing to do with that. But whatever it is, it decreases confidence. Mr. Womack. Honestly, I would like to have just a list, kind of checklist of the things that have been recommended and those that have been implemented just for my own personal information. [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Womack. I want to move over to what is referred to as market fragmentation in the trading of equities. Are you at all concerned that access fees and rebates are contributing to the fragmentation of the market? Ms. White. Those, among other issues. One of the things that I spoke about it at length last year, but probably since then as well, one of the things our Trading and Markets Division is doing for the equity markets is really, some call it a holistic review, I call it a comprehensive review of the entire market structure. Fragmentation is an issue. Conflicts of interest based on compensation is an issue. We have some short-term initiatives that I expect us actually to carry forward this year, as well, that will increase, for example, transparency of ATS's, dark pools. We have taken a number of enforcement actions in the last 18 months where in fact the rules that we have in place now are not followed in those very same spaces. So all of those issues are not only of interest, but of concern in the sense that what we want to do is optimize our markets for investors and for the companies seeking to raise capital. But it is something that you want to be data driven about, and we are being data driven and thoughtful about that as well, because you have some interrelationships of some of those issues, and the last thing you want to do is sort of decide precipitously to make one change that may seem superficially to make sense but which doesn't, given how it is integrated. But those are issues we are very much focused on. Mr. Womack. Well, specifically have you looked at whether or not access fees or rebates actually serve to distort the price discovery process, and if they do, whether those fees should be reduced, whether those fees should go to zero, and if that would serve to increase transparency across the board? Ms. White. Yes. We are looking at that. And as you know, the industry is as well. Mr. Womack. Yes. Thank you. I am out of time, and I yield back. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Bishop. Mr. Bishop. Thank you very much. And welcome, Chair White. I was interested in Mr. Serrano's reference to Jackie Robinson. And I have to say that in your industry, in your career, you are a superstar also. Incidentally, Jackie Robinson was born in my district in Cairo, Grady County, Georgia. Let me ask you a question about virtual currencies. With the expanding prevalence of virtual currencies, including the popular bitcoin, the SEC has encountered an increasing number of securities issues from companies that either facilitate the sale or trade of the currencies or from companies that use these currencies to purchase securities. What is the Commission's position on virtual currencies? And what major issues, if any, do you think stem from the use of these currencies? Ms. White. It is in several spaces. I mean, we have brought enforcement actions, as you may know, involving bitcoin and other virtual currencies when they are used as a part of an investment fraud. We have done, I think, two separate investor alerts on this subject matter, virtual currencies, because it is obviously one of those kind of hot fire issues that investors are intrigued by, kind of the excitement and the novelty benefits of it. So we want to just make sure they are very focused on what it is that is being claimed in terms of some of those benefits if they are wrapped into investments or offerings. So we have done that. We also continue to look at whether bitcoin currency is an investment contract. If it were an investment contract, then it would be a security, and various regulatory measures on our part, oversight on our part, would flow. We have not made that conclusion, but it is something that we have, what I could call at least, if it is not a formal working group, I certainly meet with them often from our New York office, as well as our Washington office and across the divisions to see how that is developing. And one really must keep your eye on how it is developing, and what more, if more, the SEC should be doing. Mr. Bishop. Thank you. The SEC and the Commodity Futures Trading Commission are both required under Dodd-Frank to complete rules to increase transparency in the swaps market by having trades conducted on exchanges or other swap execution facilities. It is our understanding, however, that the CFTC has faced some concerns with respect to the international reach of this rule, particularly from counterparts in Europe and Asia, with respect to the CFTC's cross-border guidelines. What is the SEC's experience with foreign regulatory agencies, and are there any specific examples of potential conflicts between our laws and regulations, including Dodd- Frank, with the laws and rules of foreign governments? And if so, has any government officially expressed concern or has this been primarily driven by the U.S. investment banking community? Ms. White. One of the, I think, more significant sets of provisions in the Dodd-Frank Act was really to bring in that over-the-counter derivatives market. Our piece of it at the SEC is, I think, about 5 percent of it, but nevertheless it is a market that was not regulated before. It is good that it is now. We have, I think, 29 separate congressional mandates where we have adopted about 17 of those or in the process of completing those. It is a high priority for this year. We coordinate very closely as you must in this marketplace. It is uniquely global with both our international regulators and the CFTC. And those discussions are still going on, as you know. There are particular issues that the CFTC, but also the SEC is dealing with, with our international counterparts on recognition, and substituted compliance, so that you don't have regulatory arbitrage in one place. The market will flow there, could flow out of the U.S. if the standards abroad are not high enough. But it is still a work in progress, a very important work in progress. Mr. Bishop. Have any governments expressed concerns? Ms. White. Certainly the regulators have expressed concerns. Mr. Bishop. From Europe, Asia? From where? Ms. White. I think all over, that consistency really is essential. I think from our point of view we want to make sure that we are carrying out the strength of the mandates that Dodd-Frank gave us and gave to the CFTC and that we don't lower that bar. And even if our international counterparts have provisions that may not comply with Dodd-Frank, we don't want to lower those standards that are intended to protect us from all that risk within or flowing back to the United States. Mr. Bishop. Thank you very much. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Yoder. Mr. Yoder. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I was listening intently to your discussion about the New York Yankees and other baseball teams. And I just thought, for the record, Mr. Chairman, it ought to reflect that the Kansas City Royals are undefeated and 7-0 in this season, and hope everyone will cheer for American's team going forward. Chair White, welcome back to the committee. Ms. White. Thank you. Mr. Yoder. As you are aware, there is a bill moving through Congress that would deal with the issue of email privacy. We have had this discussion before this committee before. And for the sake of background, we know there is a 1986 law that essentially says when digital correspondence is stored for more than 180 days, or once it is opened, if it is an email, that it is considered essentially abandoned and searchable and seizable by the government without due process, without probable cause. And many agencies, not just your own, have utilized that provision in the past. Most, if not all of these agencies have determined that after State v. Warshak and other court hearings, and just the modern use of email, that it is an inappropriate use of governmental power to read Americans' emails without due process, without probable cause, using the power of a civil subpoena that doesn't have any protections for the account holder. There is legislation going through Congress that has over 250 cosponsors, including every member of this committee that is here present today. There are a variety of organizations, entities, ideological groups, from the far left to the far right. This is probably one of the issues that unifies Congress and the country more than anything. And then there is the SEC against the whole world. And so I guess I would ask you, Chair White, if the SEC is continuing the practice of using an administrative subpoena to subpoena third party Internet service providers to review the digital correspondence of Americans. Ms. White. Let me start on a positive note. I am from Kansas City. So I like the Royals as well. Mr. Yoder. All right. Check that box. Ms. White. Okay. Okay. They used to be the Yankees' farm team, though. I had to add that. Sorry. And did great last year. Almost got there, right? Mr. Yoder. Right. Ms. White. We have discussed this issue, I think, several times. I don't think it is actually just the SEC. The concern is what it does to civil law enforcement, not a quarrel with making certain that the privacy protections are sufficient. And, again, we have civil law enforcement powers. We do not have the warrant power. So if a bill were to pass that required a warrant to actually obtain emails that have been deleted by the subscriber from the ISP, we could not get them. Mr. Yoder. And I just if I could clarify, that is not what the legislation does. Ms. White. Okay. All right. I know it has taken various iterations, but it does at least as I have seen it. We do have it. Again, I know we discussed it. I am sorry. Mr. Yoder. Madam Chair, because I am short on time, the legislation essentially says for criminal proceedings you have to use a warrant, and for civil proceedings, when you use the subpoena process, the subpoena is served on the individual, not on the Internet service provider. It is served on the person who holds the documents. And I guess the question that a lot of Americans are asking is, why does the SEC or any other Federal agency somehow decide that they want to treat email differently than paper mail when it comes to that civil subpoena? Why can't the SEC use the same process? Why can't they use what they have in law that allows their powers to go to the Internet service providers and to put a protection to make sure no emails are deleted? They can use that power today. There is no deletion of information. Why can't the SEC serve a subpoena like they serve on individuals for paper documents the same way as email documents? And I know what many of us believe to be the answer is that civil agencies like the SEC have used this as a shortcut to get around the traditional notions of civil subpoena process. And so my questions are twofold. One, why does the SEC believe that they can shortcut the traditional notions of the civil subpoena process when it comes to email and not treat it like paper mail or paper documents? And, two, is the SEC still currently engaging in this practice, and can you give me examples of where this is occurring and how you have utilized it after State v. Warshak? Ms. White. Two responses to that. First, I think we don't and haven't used the civil subpoena authority in that way. I think, as we discussed last year, what the SEC does, I can't speak for every other agency, obviously, but when the SEC would subpoena an ISP for emails, the typical course is to go first to the subscriber. The subscriber may tell you, I have deleted my emails or otherwise can't produce them. And so then typically the pattern would be to subpoena the ISP for those. They may be there or may not be there, obviously, in compliance with the existing ECPA law. And the SEC gives notice to the subscriber that we have done that so they can object. In fact--you get notice and the ability to come in--to object to that. So I don't think there is any due process issue with respect to that. I think the SEC has been very, very careful about that. When I arrived at the agency, these discussions we are talking about now, Warshak had occurred, and while the discussions have been going on--I don't think, by the way, Warshak does invalidate the procedure the SEC has used, the civil subpoena authority, certainly as we have used it. But while these discussions have been going on to try to sufficiently balance the privacy and the law enforcement interests, we have not to date, to my knowledge, proceeded to subpoena the ISPs. But that is something that I think is critical authority to be able to maintain, done in the right way and with sufficient solicitousness, and it is very important to the privacy interests, which I do think can be balanced. But what I think would harm civil law enforcement, particularly securities fraud law enforcement, is if we in effect were unable--and I would again say we would need longer to debate the legal issues, but I don't think we do anything differently with respect to mail and ISP. We follow that lawful, Supreme Court-endorsed civil subpoena authority. But, again, we have been and remain very interested in working with you and others to balance those interests so that we are not disabled from getting evidence that may not exist elsewhere with regard to securities fraud. Mr. Yoder. Mr. Chairman, I will utilize the next segment to maybe continue this conversation. But what I will say just in closing on this thought, you do treat it, the SEC does treat email and paper mail different. You are following the law, the 1986 law, but the majority of this Congress, including everyone sitting here in this committee, has cosponsored a bill to say that that 1986 law that doesn't protect email the same way we treat paper mail is inappropriate and is in effect a violation of the Fourth Amendment. We think that an email ought to be secure. And so just when your testimony is that you treat them the same way, that is incorrect. If I have a paper document sitting in my possession, you subpoena me, and if I don't produce it, you have a whole sort of process in order to be able to go forward and have me produce that document. There are many rights that you would use to get paper documents. All this legislation is saying is you have to use that same process for email. If I don't produce the email, then you can compel me to produce it. If I have deleted it, I can permit the SEC to go forward and go to the Internet service provider. But the entirety of this issue is the service of a subpoena on an Internet service provider and not on the individual is a violation of Americans' privacy rights. It is certainly a violation of what many believe the Fourth Amendment stands for. And it is inconsistent--at least I want to clarify this--with how we treat paper mail. You can't serve an Internet service provider for paper documents. You can't serve a third party. You serve the person who holds the documents. Ms. White. We can serve a third party with a subpoena, if it is paper or physical. Mr. Yoder. But not if I hold the documents, ma'am. If I am holding a document right here, there is no such thing--if I hold the only copy of it, and I am the one who holds the document, you serve the subpoena on me. Ms. White. We should have a longer conversation on that because I think we do differ on that legal point. What we don't differ on is making certain we are protecting those privacy interests that you and others and all of us care about. Mr. Yoder. And I will just conclude by saying, reading Americans' emails by serving a subpoena on an Internet service provider is violating their privacy rights. And I will yield back, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw. We will have a little more time on the next round, but let's go now to Ms. Herrera Beutler. Ms. Herrera Beutler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So when I came in, I apologize, I was actually at another subcommittee markup, 'tis the season, so I came in on the tail end of your responses to the chairman about a question that I am going to be asking, was hoping to get your thoughts on it. So I apologize if you have already heard it. I didn't get to hear the whole thing. In discussing your belief that the SEC should propose the fiduciary standard for broker-dealers, you have indicated the need to harmonize the standards that govern how the retail brokers offer advice to investors. And more clarity could be used to ensure that the individual investors are understanding the differences between registered investment advisers and broker-dealers. I think that makes sense. It is worth noting that the separate regulatory infrastructure has worked really well for the past 70-plus years. So my question is, do you see the SEC's involvement in the fiduciary standard as a first step in a broader effort to harmonize the RIA and broker-dealer industries or is it more of a kind of a one-off, for lack of a better term, to rectify the individual issue of investor confusion? And if it is only a first step, do you see other actions or other efforts affecting each industry separately? Ms. White. The SEC staff did a very comprehensive report, actually, to Congress with staff recommendations on really kind of both sets of issues. And they are big issues and complex issues, all of them. One of them being should there be a uniform fiduciary duty standard, which basically says broker- dealers and investment advisers, at least when they are acting essentially in identical spaces with retail investors, should be subject to a best interests of the client standard. Then also, because you do have separate regulatory regimes, based on the historic development for broker-dealers and investment advisers, should there be harmonization? If so, how much? In terms of what I am talking about now, I am very sharply focused on the first set of issues. That doesn't suggest that there aren't more sets of issues that need to be addressed. I think there are. But in terms of what I am talking about now, it is really the uniform fiduciary duty standard. But, again, among the issues, if we are to proceed with imposing a uniform fiduciary duty on broker-dealers and investment advisers is, what is the standard? What does the standard require? What are the existing practices of both investment advisers and broker-dealers which can continue? Which have to be altered? And, again, we also have the parameters set by 913 of Dodd- Frank that tell us it is not a per se violation of any duty we might impose, that the financial professional charges a commission or engages in principal transactions. So there is an awful lot of issues in that, an awful lot to balance. And as I said, it is complex, getting the right balance is absolutely critical, and it is not going to be quick. Ms. Herrera Beutler. So it sounds like, yes, in part, that you are going to be spending much more time and attention on it. Ms. White. Yes. Ms. Herrera Beutler. Skipping over to a totally different issue, I think you have recently talked--recently, probably in the last year--my recent history is last 5 years anymore--about the lack of liquidity in financial markets. And is this a concern and potentially a major risk? And if so, do you believe we should be examining our regulatory framework to address the risk, like what I believe most of the world is currently doing? Ms. White. Well, I think all of the regulators, certainly including the SEC, are very focused on that. I mean, clearly with the anticipation of the rising interest rates has obviously focused everyone's attention on that. One of the reports that actually the members of FSOC make to the House Financial Services Committee quarterly is whether the Volcker rule may be adding to or having an impact on liquidity. Thus far the conclusion of those reports is that you can't say that it does, but clearly you have got a whole regime of regulations, capital requirements, et cetera. What we have done at the SEC, I think it was January 2014 that our Investment Management Division put out guidance to firms to alert them to the possible risks, particularly if interest rates rise. We had the experience of I guess it is called the taper tantrum when it looked as if interest rates were going to be raised and what impacts that seemed to be having--so that they are looking very closely at their own risk management of their portfolios. But it is something that everybody, and rightly so, is very focused on. Ms. Herrera Beutler. With that, I yield back. Mr. Crenshaw. Mr. Graves. Mr. Graves. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good to see you again. And I appreciate your time today, your explanation of some very complex issues. And I would sort of like to follow up a little bit on Ms. Herrera Beutler's comments on liquidity, and I know the chairman addressed that as well. And it does seem since the implementation of the Volcker rule, so it was 2013, the markets have certainly seen the effects of that. And it was once theoretical, and maybe had great intentions, but now it is very practical. And this interaction between all the rules, and I think you suggested that, there is just a complexity of new rules and regulations that are putting a lot of pressure on the markets. Maybe you could just sort of follow up a little bit more on the liquidity in the bond market. With the implementation of Dodd-Frank and application of capital standards, we are certainly seeing the effects of overregulation in the markets. And as you may recall, last fall the U.S. treasury market experienced what was called a flash crash that alarmed a lot of the major market players and investors. And last week Larry Summers, former Treasury Secretary under President Clinton, echoed these sentiments, and he made a good point, and that is that regulators seem to be more interested in strictly keeping each individual institution safe rather than taking a holistic approach and making sure that the markets are open and liquid. So maybe as a member of FSOC, and you referenced that organization as well, can you just comment on some of those concerns that are being widely commented on now? Ms. White. And, again, there are lots of moving pieces that may have potential impacts, and I think, as I said before, the last report that the regulators did really did not conclude-- actually Volcker is not effective yet. Obviously firms have adjusted practices in advance of that, but it actually doesn't take effect until, I think, July of this year, and so there is no cause and effect that can be ascertained from the work that we have done. But the financial regulators are all very focused on this, and particularly as we anticipate the interest rates rising. From my point of view, I think it is something that we have to continue to comprehensively, continuously look at to see the phenomenon. The last report we did suggested that liquidity in the primary market, bond market, was solid, had tightened some in the secondary market, but that tends to happen at year end, and I think this report was based on year end. But we have to look at everything we do for the impacts that are occurring, positive or negative, and be prepared to make adjustments if need be. Mr. Graves. Okay. Thank you. And I will make a simple point. I know maybe Volcker hasn't gone into effect until July, as you say, but I do think it does have an impact. I mean, you somewhat referenced that with the hint of interest rates rising, and it has an impact on markets because there is an anticipated change that is occurring. So I can imagine that it has rippled through a lot of the markets in some way in anticipation of what may come ahead. So in your perspective, do you wait until after it is implemented and then analyze what impacts have occurred or haven't occurred? And if so, how do you measure that? Do you measure that prior to Volcker being not adopted, but anticipated to be adopted? And what metric do you measure that against? Because if the markets have already made somewhat of an adjustment, some would argue that it has been negative, do you use that as the metric you measure the future against, or do you go prior to that when the markets were normalized? Ms. White. At least at the SEC, as we do our economic analysis, you always look for the baseline before you do something or are anticipating doing something, what did it look like and then what might be the impact. And certainly we studied that and analyzed that before the rule was adopted, and certainly we are not not studying it before it becomes effective in July, and I think that is the right way to proceed. I think among the issues, though, is what is the state now. That may change when interest rates rise, for example. And then the other is what may be causing an effect that at least some may consider to be negative. Obviously, you are balancing cost and benefits as you go. I mean, it is not as if the only thing you look at is higher liquidity or deeper liquidity. You are looking at what are the benefits of whatever may be causing lowered liquidity as well. It is a very comprehensive, but it really needs to be real-time and continuous. Mr. Graves. Right. And I would be interested maybe in the future you could share this with me. You speak of the baseline. I think it is very important. Choosing that baseline is equally as important. Is it a baseline of today? Is it a baseline pre- 2013? Or is it a baseline pre-2007 when the markets really were impacted in a lot of different ways? And so maybe as you formalize that through your own analysis and FSOC you could share that with us. SEC Chair White's Responses to Questions Posed During the House Appropriations Subcommittee on Financial Services and General Government Hearing--April 15, 2015 Response to Representative Graves As a general matter, the SEC's approach to examining the impacts of a new regulation is to look at the current state of the market immediately before a rule is proposed or adopted and compare that to potential or actual effects after the implementation of the rule. Because the Volcker Rule is being phased in over time, generally with an initial conformance date of July 21, 2015, an analysis of the Volcker Rule's impact would involve a comparison to the state of the market prior to the time that banking entities were required to conform to the Volcker Rule. Importantly, however, we understatnd that market behavior had been changing both in anticipation of the implementation of the Volcker Rule and in response to the financial crisis. Specifically, covered banking entities may have altered their business modesl both in response to regulatory changes and as a rational reaciton to changing financial market conditions. For example, covered banking entities with proprietary trading and prviate fund operations began closing their proprietary trading desks and private funds in response to the passage of Section 619 of the Dodd-Frank Act, prior to adoption of the final Volcker Rule. Additionally, covered banking entities with market-making and dealing operationsmay have been reassessing the profitability and riskiness of these operations in response to the financial crisis. Any such analysis that may be undertaken would take all of this into consideration. Mr. Graves. And then, Mr. Chairman, I will just sort of close on this. It sounds like, and I don't want to put words in your mouth and you can feel free to follow up, that you agree that it needs to be a balanced, holistic approach as you analyze a lot of the various measures that are being taken right now and not be narrowly focused solely on derisking certain institutions or banks, but it needs to be balanced and considered in a broad manner to alleviate some of the liquidity issues. Is that sort of what I took from your comments there? Ms. White. I mean, I think that anytime you regulate or take any other action you need to be assessing the benefits, the unintended consequences that may be positive or negative. I can't say where that sorts out as we do that review. Mr. Graves. Great. Thank you. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. And I think we have time for another round of questions if people have them. Let me start by asking you about what I mentioned in my opening statement about FSOC and the SIFI designations. As chairman of the SEC, you sit on the Financial Stability Oversight Council. I think there are eight other government regulators on the Council. And your job as the FSOC is to mitigate risks to U.S. financial systems. You are supposed to identify and respond to emerging threats to overall financial stability. There has been a lot of interest in this designation of SIFIs, and specifically people have talked about how you select someone to be a SIFI, how you inform someone if they are a SIFI, how you designate them as a SIFI. There are some ideas floating around that might be commonsense improvements, like more engagement with the primary regulator before the designation, the ability of a company to derisk before their designation, and an overall increase in transparency with the whole designation process. So I want to ask you, what are your thoughts on allowing a company, say, to derisk, offload some of the risky parts of their operations, as identified by FSOC, before the designation? As I mentioned earlier, in one sense you ought not to be simply in the business of trying to go out and designate folks, which subjects them to an additional set of regulations, but just say, look, it would be better if we help you not become a SIFI because that is part of our responsibility. What are your thoughts about some of those proposed commonsense improvements? Ms. White. First, at the outset, I think it is clear that FSOC is a relatively new organization. I think it is enormously important to safeguarding the financial stability of the country. It is a good thing that it brings together all those regulators at the same--I think it is about once a month and more often when there is a need to say what are you seeing in terms of risks that may impact negatively on the wider economy. So FSOC is assigned to identify those risks and then address them if found with the authorities that FSOC is given. A primary authority is obviously the designation authority. Certainly a number of parties, and I think you are citing some of the suggestions that a number of parties have made that FSOC should move to increase transparency on a number of scores. FSOC has engaged in that process recently, actually put out some new procedures in that direction. Again, I think the statute does basically assign to FSOC, if there is a finding that a particular entity's material financial distress would have impact on the broader financial system, significant impact on the broader financial system, then it can be designated. Now, one of the other sets of issues, of course, is once you are designated there is also a process to be dedesignated. And as it has developed so far, although I think that will continue to evolve with more clarity and more transparency, what are the specific things that a firm might do so they are not creating a systemic risk. And clearly not creating a systemic risk is a good thing. But I think what Dodd-Frank and FSOC wanted to be sure of is you are not erring on the side of not catching that risk that may have really very broad and negative consequences. So I really see it as it is evolving in terms of greater transparency. I think that is a good thing that it is, and I think it will continue to evolve. Mr. Crenshaw. Well, on that point, let me ask you, the SEC is the primary regulator of the securities markets. You have the expertise in this area. And so it puzzles me to see now that FSOC is looking into designating registered funds, like mutual funds, that they might be designated as a SIFI. But they are not leveraged, their losses are absorbed by the fund investors, and they already have liquidity requirements. And I don't know that there have been any runs on the funds even in difficult times. So it seems to me that is an area that you have got to think hard about before you put them under the style of regulation that might not be applicable to them. So what is your view of registered funds? Are they all that risky? And if so, how? As the SEC is the primary regulator, do you have more say if FSOC is trying to make a decision like that? And you touched on some of the areas that might be places that you could reform and improve, again, understanding the overall importance of making sure you deal with that risk. Talk about that, just going beyond what you might think ordinarily would be a systemically important financial institution and moving into some other areas. Ms. White. I think first the way it is structured now, clearly the primary regulator is present. There is an insurance representative, obviously the SEC is there, the CFTC is an FSOC member, and the primary regulator is both consulted and also a very active participant. One of our jobs, the job of the staff and me, I mean, I am the member, that is another one of the issues when you are on a commission, but I am the member, and our staff brings to bear knowledge in spaces where we are expert. Asset management obviously comes immediately to mind. We provide extensive support to the working groups within FSOC as they are analyzing these issues. And I think that is very, very important to do. It is important, in my view, and I have said this before, that with respect to all of us on FSOC, we have certain expertises that are deeper than others. Banking regulators have banking regulation expertise. We have capital markets expertise. The insurance member has insurance expertise. That is extremely important, that it be at the table, be listened to, its staff be listened to, and then if there is a need for further expertise to understand a particular set of companies, an industry, that FSOC brings in additional expertise. So I think it is very important to get it right. I mean, asset managers are basically, structured on an agency basis. It is the client's money. It is not a balance sheet issue typically. FSOC, as you know, at the end of December put out a request for further information from the public and the industry, as to whether there are activities that are being engaged in by the asset management industry that may create systemic risks of one kind or another, and if so, what should the response to that be. If it is a regulatory response, and maybe it will be that, maybe the suggestion will be there doesn't need to be a further response, that would fall to the primary regulatory, the SEC. We have regulated asset managers for 80 years. I mean, we are, we think, expert in that. And we evolve with how the industry changes. There clearly have been changes in the asset manager space. I think I did a speech the end of December talking about kind of our next phase of enhancing regulatory oversight of the assessment management industry, including getting more data in areas where we don't, for example, you don't have today standardized reporting on derivatives. Separately managed accounts, you don't have that information in a way that you can analyze it as deeply as you would like to. So we are proceeding on several regulatory fronts, as we have for decades, where we think it needs to happen. So that is occurring at the same time. I see what FSOC is doing is, clearly, if you have a systemic risk, there are other market participants we don't regulate that may be part of that risk. So I think what they are doing in terms of getting further information on this complements what we are doing at this point. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you very much. Mr. Serrano. Mr. Serrano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dodd-Frank implementation created a whole new set of issues for you to deal with. There were 90 new rules, created five new offices, and produced more than 20 studies and reports. Our understanding is that most of it has been either proposed or completed. What still remains to be done and what has hindered progress on these remaining issues? Ms. White. I will start at the end of your question. I think between the Dodd-Frank and the JOBS Act, the SEC was given almost 100 mandated rulemakings, of great complexity in many cases. When I arrived, there were some, I think, very important ones, frankly, both Dodd-Frank, JOBS Act, and other areas of rulemaking at the agency that had been delayed or for one reason or another needed to be advanced. One of the things that I tried to do was to do parallel workstreams on these rulemakings so that you didn't have the same people working on four or five different rules. I think we have made very, very good progress on the Dodd-Frank-mandated rulemakings. I look at those in kind of eight separate buckets, including the Volcker rule, the municipal advisors registration regime that has been set up. Clearing agencies. Securitizations. Credit rating agencies. The two in that group where we have work to complete are really Title VII, as we talked about earlier. I think 17 or 19 of those have been adopted, but we still have to build that out. It is a high priority for 2015. And some of the remaining executive compensation rules under Dodd-Frank, including Section 956 of Dodd-Frank, which is a joint rulemaking with other financial regulators. So the challenge is really just the volume, the complexity, and not to have the mandated rulemakings crowd out other core things that we need to be doing that are not mandated by either Dodd-Frank or the JOBS Act. Mr. Serrano. Next question. You mentioned, both privately when we met and publicly here, the imbalance with some of the banks, for instance, that have so much of a budget for IT compared to what you have. And so has that hindered enforcement for you? And how will the new positions that you are asking for, should we be able to get you some extra dollars, how can you begin to work on balancing that act a little bit more? Ms. White. First, I am extraordinarily proud of our entire agency, including the enforcement function, including when they go to trial. I think our success rate is very impressive given the difficulty of our cases, and we often meet an army of lawyers. IT is very important. Mr. Serrano. I understand it is 80 percent. Ms. White. Yes, that is correct, in most years. Sometimes it is higher, sometimes it is lower. And they are hard cases. They are very, very hard cases. And part of what we are seeking in this current budget request is to be able to bolster enforcement, including at trial, including with IT to assist what they do, hire more experts in order to be able to really match what we are put up against. I think we do very well at it, but we would clearly do better at it with those resources. Mr. Serrano. Now, do you foresee this to be an ongoing issue? One of the problems that we have here in Congress is that we are always talking to all the agencies about their IT situation, and then at home we find out that the iPad we bought last year is outdated by next year. And now it is the iWatch and everything else. And so speaking from your agency alone, are we ever going to catch up, or will Congress always, is the government going to be behind in trying to bring all the agencies up to date? Ms. White. Very good question. We have already talked about the difference in numbers in the private sector and on the government side, certainly with respect to the SEC, which is why, by the way the reserve fund is so important to us, because we use that for those long-term, mission-critical projects, that you have to be sure you have got that funding. And one of the issues we had last year was $25 million of that was actually rescinded. So that can really set you back. But our strategy on the IT front is all the enhancements we are doing, all the restructuring and redesign that we are doing is intended to both break down the silos, making sure all our data, big data and other not-so-big data is accessible, more easily useable, but also to build our IT network, if you will, so that we can adapt quickly to new applications that we are going to need in order to be able to assess what the latest practice is. So, I mean, I think you want to build it as smartly as you can, but I can't sit here and tell you that you are not going to be playing a bit of catch-up as we go forward. Mr. Serrano. I suspect. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. Mr. Yoder. Mr. Yoder. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw. Continue his conversation. Mr. Yoder. Chair White, I want to briefly return to the topic aforementioned, and then I have a couple other items I wanted to visit about as well. What I would just maybe say in summary is that I gleaned from your testimony that after Warshak, I think you stated that the SEC is actually not serving Internet service providers directly for emails. Is that a correct statement? Ms. White. I think what I have said is when I arrived they had not recently served it. I don't think Warshak actually speaks to our practices, frankly. But while these discussions were going on to enhance the privacy interests we---- Mr. Yoder. And that is appreciated. Ms. White. Yes. Mr. Yoder. So since you have been chair---- Ms. White. Yes. But I am very worried about that, I can tell you that. I am very worried about what we don't know we are not getting. Mr. Yoder. And, Madam Chair, this is what I wanted to get to maybe to conclude our conversation here, is that in no way is the effort to protect the privacy rights of Americans' emails also an effort to try to stifle your effort to do your job. And there has got to be a point there in which you can access the information you need, and I believe that is in a traditional way consistent with paper mail. And it sounds like you believe it as well. We just need some interpretation and understanding of how we make those things similar. I would think the SEC, under your chairmanship and after Warshak and you giving deference to, okay, this is an issue that Congress is going to address so let's not go forward and serve Internet service providers until maybe we get some clarity, I would think the SEC would actually be banging on our door saying what you just said: We don't know what we don't know, and we need Congress to resolve this issue. So I guess I would ask that maybe under your leadership, if you could direct your staff or you take this issue on personally to make suggestions and amendments that might achieve my mission, which is what I believe to have the service go directly to the individual, that it be treated just like paper mail, and your mission, which is to make that you don't somehow lose these emails in the process and that you have the ability to use your traditional subpoena powers. I think there is an answer there. I think it is the bill that we have introduced. But if you have suggestions and ways in which we could resolve this, and amendments, I would be happy to entertain those. I would be happy to come to a resolution with the SEC on this. Ms. White. I would be very happy to engage in that dialogue. We don't have to take the time of the whole subcommittee now. Mr. Yoder. Sure. Ms. White. But there are a couple of things in our exchanges where I think we may differ in either how we have done things or what the law allows us to do, et cetera, and, again I am concerned about. But I didn't think it was the right thing to do as we are discussing trying to balance privacy and law enforcement---- Mr. Yoder. I appreciate that. Ms. White [continuing]. To go ahead and serve that subpoena on the ISP. Mr. Yoder. To not do that, right, and I appreciate that. Ms. White. But I worry about it. Mr. Yoder. Right. And I worry about it. So are you serving the subpoenas directly on the individuals right now or are you just not getting the emails? Ms. White. No. We always have served subpoenas directly on the individuals. Mr. Yoder. Okay. Ms. White. And sometimes you get documents and sometimes you don't. Mr. Yoder. Okay. Ms. White. And sometimes you are told, ``We have deleted them all.'' Mr. Yoder. Right. Ms. White. Or you have an entire missing month, like the critical month, and if it is still on the ISP, that is critical evidence. While we discuss this, I worry about what we are missing. Mr. Yoder. Right. And certainly we are trying to receive emails, Congress is, on a variety of issues too, and not every American can have their own service provider at home, their own in-home server. So that being said, let's move on to a couple more issues here. I am interested in the SEC's efforts related to universal proxy ballots. And I noticed the SEC recently held a roundtable to discuss universal proxy ballots. And this is a mechanism favored by some special interest groups to increase their ability to get board seats on public companies. It would fundamentally change the way in which directors are elected, likely lead to endless proxy fights, creating a huge ongoing distraction for companies and their performance and the ability of the, I think, really, the economy to grow and create jobs. So the SEC has yet to adopt any universal proxy rules, but the fact that you held a roundtable has raised some eyebrows, made folks interested to know which direction the SECis going, does the SEC plan to engage in rulemaking on universal proxy ballots. Is this something that the SECis moving forward on? Ms. White. There are a number of proxy issues that the SEC has been talking about, been concerned about, and interested in, for really a number of years. A concept released was published a number of years ago. This was among those issues, I think. Our Investor Advisory Committee was very interested in this issue, and made a recommendation. Since the roundtable we have gotten actually a rulemaking petition from, I think, the Council of Institutional Investors. So it is all under study and review, I mean, that is the status, as are other proxy issues, under study and review with the staff and at the Commission. So there is interest in the issue, therefore we had the roundtable basically. One commissioner requested it, but there was broader interest than that. And I think what I at least took away from the roundtable is the concern that if you are physically present at the meeting you in effect get a ballot that has everybody on it and you can kind of see who is where. Management slate or the proponent, shareholder proponent slate. When you do that, by virtue of the current rules, by proxy, you are not able to do that. So what the proponents are trying to do is replicate what it would be like and what you could do if you were actually at the meeting. I think there are number of issues, a number of issues were discussed about the complexities of that. There was a lot of devil is in the details about, at least as I took in the particular roundtable, a real difference of opinion on the concept, but the devil is in the details. Do you do it alphabetically? Who does the supporting statement for each candidate? So there is a lot in that to study. And so where that stands right now is it is basically being further studied by the staff and discussed at the Commission, but there is not anything on the slate as we speak now. Mr. Yoder. So there is no intended rulemaking that SEC intends to do at this point? Ms. White. Well, it is under discussion, but it is not on our Reg flex agenda to go forward. Mr. Yoder. In the discussions, did the SEC identify a market failure that would warrant the SEC consuming additional resources and making this a priority? Ms. White. Well, I think that the range of proxy issues, and, again, there are different proponents on different sides of the different issues, are really quite important to companies, investors, management. This is one of them. And I certainly thought, or I wouldn't have held it, I thought the roundtable discussed other issues too. How you enhance retail investor participation in the proxy process, which is an issue of concern to a lot of people. I certainly thought that consumption of resources and studying the issue was a wise one. It is not an extensive consumption of resources. Mr. Yoder. Then lastly, just quickly, you made remarks about the priority to initiate crowdfunding rules for the SEC, and I have got a big startup community in Kansas City, in my district, and they are certainly interested in that process and hopeful that it moves forward. And I just thought maybe you could give us a sense of where this ranks on the priorities of the SEC and the timeline regarding crowdfunding rules. Ms. White. I always get kicked from behind when I do timelines, but this is one that I think is enormously important. I think it is our last major, significant rulemaking under the JOBS Act. It is one that I have actually in the last 6 weeks or so had really extensive meetings with the staff. They are progressing on this. I mean, essentially the lay of the land on this is we knew it was going to be a complicated rulemaking. We basically need to be true to the statutory requirements, but also make it workable and cost effective. That has proven to be even more complicated, to get that right balance, than we thought. But it is one where I am certainly prioritizing it for this year. Mr. Yoder. Thank you, Chair White. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Crenshaw. Ms. Herrera Beutler. Ms. Herrera Beutler. Thank you. That was one of my questions actually. So I appreciate that. Your written testimony, Madam Chair, it began with an outline of how much the SEC's workload has increased over the last 15 years. Certainly we have talked about increases for salaries and FTEs--not salaries--but the FTE pay and the ability to take on and do more. Essentially the need for more funding. And our job here is not just to appropriate money, but also to find savings and help agencies operate efficiently. The SEC is expected to finalize its pay ratio rulemaking sometime this year. This rule requires that public companies publicly disclose the pay ratio between their CEO and their median income employee. And no one is going to argue that CEOs don't get great salaries, they certainly don't need my sympathy. But I had some concern as we are being asked for more funding, and when I think about what could be argued a rule that may or may not directly relate to the role of the SEC, it is my understanding this rule doesn't do anything other than make public certain people's high salaries in private companies or nongovernment companies. Further, the courts do have a history of throwing out SEC rules that are specifically designed to shame people, as you well know. So there is a good chance that this finalized rule won't last long. Now, I know in a letter you sent to the chairman of the House Financial Services Committee in December that the SEC has spent over 7,000 man-hours and a million bucks to just draft the pay ratio rule. Do you have an estimate of what the final taxpayer cost is for drafting this rule? Ms. White. I don't have a final estimate, although I think the costs estimated, and it really is an estimate, reflected in that letter are now certainly most of the costs that is involved. This is a little bit like the crowdfunding discussion I was just having with Congressman Yoder. I mean, it is a mandated rulemaking by Congress. I do regard congressional mandates as something we are obligated to proceed with. Pay ratio is one of those. Reg A-Plus that we just did, under the JOBS Act, is another one. I think they both didn't have deadlines, actually, as it turns out. Again, what we are doing there is we have to be faithful to the mandate and faithful to the statutory requirement. Ms. Herrera Beutler. So in your opinion, I wasn't here when that was passed---- Ms. White. I wasn't either. Ms. Herrera Beutler [continuing]. So is this something that you would like help with not having to do? You are talking about needing new resources to do real work, important work in protecting investors, in protecting individuals. Do you feel like this really supports that mission? Ms. White. I think that is for Congress to judge, frankly. There is no question that those 100 mandates I mentioned, in answer to Ranking Member Serrano's question, that the SEC was mandated to carry out under the JOBS Act and the Dodd-Frank Act are challenges for the agency. It is probably the most challenging period of rulemaking and most complex in its history. And so one of my jobs has been to make certain that we are able to do other things as well that are very important to our core mission. But at the end of the day, I think that is up to Congress. What we do is we try to carry out those mandates, whichever ones we are talking about, in as cost-effective a way, as consistent with our mission as we can, with the mandates we are given. Ms. Herrera Beutler. Can I ask then, so then all the mandates that you have been given you are putting time and effort into every single one of them, or have you prioritized those mandates? Ms. White. Well, you do some prioritizing. I mean, when I first arrived, though, again, I mentioned that---- Ms. Herrera Beutler. So none are sitting on the shelf? Ms. White. We haven't completely finished all of them, but---- Ms. Herrera Beutler. Have you started all of them? Ms. White. Oh, yes. No question about that. No question about that. Ms. Herrera Beutler. Okay. Okay. Again, had I been here, I would not have supported requiring you to spend time on what could be superfluous efforts. Like you said, you have got a lot of important work to do. We have already talked about some other rules that are a lot more complex and directly related to consumers. And some of us here would like to relieve some of those mandates to allow you to focus on what you need to do. We welcome your feedback in moving forward on that issue. So with that, I yield back. Thank you. Mr. Crenshaw. Thank you. I think there might be some additional questions that will be submitted for the record. Mr. Crenshaw. But let me first say, speaking of historic days, 150 years ago on this day Abraham Lincoln died. And, interestingly I am told that the day before, before he went to the theater that night, he signed the bill that created the Secret Service. So whether that is true or not, I am told that, but it is kind of interesting. And of course Jackie Robinson played his first baseball game. And of course we have all have to file our taxes today. So it is a significant day. And Mary Jo White. Ms. White. I think that fell to the bottom, but I appreciate it. Mr. Crenshaw. Let me just say thank you. You have an important responsibility and you carry it out well, and we appreciate all that you do. And thank you for being here today. Ms. White. Thank you very much. Mr. Crenshaw. This meeting is adjourned. [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] W I T N E S S E S ---------- Page Buerkle, Hon. Ann Marie.......................................... 1 Kaye, Hon. Elliot F.............................................. 1 Pai, Hon. Ajit................................................... 81 Wheeler, Hon. Tom................................................ 81 White, Hon. Mary Jo.............................................. 183