[House Hearing, 114 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
EXAMINING FEDERAL ADMINISTRATION OF THE SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT IN
FLINT, MICHIGAN, PART III
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED FOURTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
MARCH 17, 2016
__________
Serial No. 114-142
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
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COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah, Chairman
JOHN L. MICA, Florida ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland,
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio Ranking Minority Member
JOHN J. DUNCAN, Jr., Tennessee CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
JIM JORDAN, Ohio ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
TIM WALBERG, Michigan Columbia
JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee JIM COOPER, Tennessee
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas MATT CARTWRIGHT, Pennsylvania
CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina BRENDA L. LAWRENCE, Michigan
RON DeSANTIS, Florida TED LIEU, California
MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina BONNIE WATSON COLEMAN, New Jersey
KEN BUCK, Colorado STACEY E. PLASKETT, Virgin Islands
MARK WALKER, North Carolina MARK DeSAULNIER, California
ROD BLUM, Iowa BRENDAN F. BOYLE, Pennsylvania
JODY B. HICE, Georgia PETER WELCH, Vermont
STEVE RUSSELL, Oklahoma MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico
EARL L. ``BUDDY'' CARTER, Georgia
GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin
WILL HURD, Texas
GARY J. PALMER, Alabama
Jennifer Hemingway, Staff Director
Andrew Dockham, General Counsel
William McGrath, Interior Subcommittee Staff Director
Sharon Casey, Deputy Chief Clerk
David Rapallo, Minority Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on March 17, 2016................................... 1
WITNESSES
The Hon. Rick Snyder, Governor, State of Michigan
Oral Statement............................................... 5
Written Statement............................................ 8
The Hon. Gina McCarthy, Administrator, U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency
Oral Statement............................................... 11
Written Statement............................................ 14
APPENDIX
1. Representative Dan Kildee Statement (D-MI).................... 80
2. Genessee County Legionella 2014-2015 Chart submitted by Mr.
Walberg........................................................ 82
3. 2015-01-18 Mayor Walling to Governor Snyder re Flint submitted
by Mr. Cartwright.............................................. 83
4 .2015-06-24 Miguel A. Del Toral EPA Report submitted by Mr.
Mica........................................................... 85
5. 2015-09-09 Representative Kildee to Administrator McCarthy-EPA
and Director Wyant-MDEQ re Flint submitted by Mr. Hice......... 93
6. 2015-09-15 Hedman-EPA to Representative Kildee-Flint re 9-9
submitted by Mr. Hice.......................................... 95
7. RESPONSE from Governor Snyder MI to Questions for the Record.. 96
8. RESPONSE from Administrator McCarthy EPA to Question for the
Record......................................................... 100
EXAMINING FEDERAL ADMINISTRATION OF THE SAFE DRINKING WATER ACT IN
FLINT, MICHIGAN, PART III
----------
Thursday, March 17, 2016
House of Representatives
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Washington, D.C.
The committee met, pursuant to call, at 9:00 a.m., in Room
2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jason Chaffetz
[chairman of the committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Chaffetz, Mica, Duncan, Walberg,
Amash, Gosar, Desjarlais, Massie, Meadows, DeSantis, Buck,
Walker, Hice, Grothman, Palmer, Cummings, Maloney, Norton,
Clay, Connolly, Cartwright, Duckworth, Kelly, Lawrence, Watson
Coleman, DeSaulnier, Boyle, Welch, and Lujan Grisham.
Also Present: Representative Conyers.
Chairman Chaffetz. The Committee on Oversight and
Government Reform will come to order.
Without objection, the chair is authorized to declare a
recess at any time.
We have the third in a series of hearings that we are doing
examining the Federal administration of the Safe Drinking Water
Act, dealing with the crisis in Flint, Michigan.
Appreciate the witnesses here today. I also appreciate the
strong public participation and interest in this hearing. I
would remind those that are participating that this is a
congressional hearing. We would appreciate your proper--the
proper decorum in this room. There are to be no shows of
expression, positive or negative, and we would appreciate your
help in that way.
Let me make just a few observations, and then we will turn
it over to the ranking member and get right to the questioning
here.
There are people still today in Flint, Michigan, who are
waking up this morning, they can't drink the water. And they
can't take a shower. They are using a bottle of water to drink
and using a bottle of water to take a shower. And I can't even
imagine my family having to go through that here in the United
States of America.
I was able to visit Flint with a number of members here on
this past Saturday, and this is a crisis, and it affects a lot
of people. And I think these hearings have been very
productive.
There are people that have been exposed to drinking lead-
laced water for more than a year, and this is, I believe, a
failure at every level. And I think most everybody has
acknowledged that.
Let us remember that Flint City was a city in crisis.
Financial situation was dire at best. The people of Michigan
made a decision, and emergency managers were put into place,
save dollars. And I think the idea, desire to reduce the rate
of the cost of water, as well as improve the quality of water,
was where this started, but it is not where it ended up.
At every level in Michigan, from the city to the Department
of Public Works, to the emergency manager, to the Michigan
Department of Environmental Quality, there were failures. And
there are questions about the accuracy of the data that was
provided.
Some of those people were responsible and reported to the
Governor of Michigan, and I appreciate the Governor
volunteering and suggesting that coming here and testifying
before Congress to tell his version of the story was an
appropriate thing. And Governor, I appreciate your willingness
to come talk to this body because there are some serious
questions, and we do want to get to the bottom of it.
The Congress also has responsibility and jurisdiction over
the EPA. The funding of the EPA, obviously, being a Federal
organization, we have jurisdiction, and it is proper and
important that we look at things from that perspective as well.
In February, LeeAnne Walters, who is here in the audience
with us today, finally got fed up with what was going on, where
she managed to get a hold of the EPA, and Miguel Del Toral from
the EPA showed up on the scene and started to test the water.
He should be highly commended for his actions and the things
that he did, and I appreciate LeeAnne Walters and her family
for stepping forward and can't even express--I just can't even
imagine what her and her family and her son, who I met, got a
picture with, what they have been through.
By June, the EPA clearly knew that this was a crisis. They
absolutely knew that this was a problem. And Susan Hedman is
the administrator for the Region 5. She definitively knew that
there was a problem.
The Mayor at the time in Flint asked what had happened. Is
the water safe to drink? He was told don't pay no attention to
the report that was written by the EPA and actually went on
local television and told people it was safe to drink the
water.
Move forward, it is September 24th. One of the more
troubling things--I want to put up this graphic. This is an
internal email within the EPA talking about Susan Hedman.
``Perhaps she''--Susan Hedman--``already knows this, but I am
not so sure Flint is the community we want to go out on a limb
for.''
You can take that down. It is one of the more offensive,
concerning things I have seen. That there were people, more
than one, that were making decisions and thinking that, well,
maybe Flint isn't who we should go out on a limb for. Are you
kidding me?
Of all the communities out there, Flint is the number-one
place that they should have been going out on a limb for. It is
depressed economically. They are going through their own
economic crisis, and there is internal discussion at the EPA
deciding whether or not we should go out on a limb for.
Days later, the EPA Administrator said Ms. Hedman's work
was ``very encouraging.'' Gina McCarthy said, ``They are making
great progress.'' But it wasn't until January of 2016 that the
EPA actually took definitive action. The day after that, Susan
Hedman, the Region 5 administrator, resigns.
Later asked about that action, Gina McCarthy, the EPA
Administrator, said that that resignation was courageous,
courageous. That is something we are going to talk about here
today.
I have seen a lot of things before this committee, but I
have got to tell you, this--the lack of action here, the lack
of letting people know so they can make an informed decision,
is very concerning. It is very concerning.
Let us now recognize the ranking member, Mr. Cummings.
Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
And I, too, agree that this is a tragic situation. But let
us be clear, this is not just on the EPA. It is much bigger
than that. And so I take a moment, first of all, to thank
LeeAnne Walters, Professor Edwards, and to the people of Flint,
many of whom have come here today. They are lined all outside
these walls, unable to get in and probably feeling left out.
But they probably felt left out for a long time. And so,
Mr. Chairman, I take this moment to thank you. You didn't have
to do this. I asked you for a hearing, and you granted us three
hearings, and I really appreciate that.
You see, because I lived in a neighborhood where lead is a
problem, I am very sensitive to this issue.
Governor Snyder has been described as running the State of
Michigan like a business. Well, what if this was a business?
What if a CEO ran a company that sold toys laced with lead that
children put in their mouths? What if those children were
poisoned as a result? And what if that CEO ignored warnings for
more than a year as those kids got sicker and sicker and
sicker?
There is no doubt in my mind that if a corporate CEO did
what Governor Snyder's administration has done, he would be
hauled up on criminal charges. The board of directors would
throw him out, and the shareholders would revolt.
This is similar to what is happening now to Governor
Snyder. The special counsel for the State attorney general's
office has launched an investigation, and he says--I didn't say
this--he says that State officials could face charges including
breach of duty, gross negligence, or even manslaughter, charges
he says are, and I quote, ``not far-fetched.''
On our committee, we have obtained documents showing that
people all around the Governor, including his chief of staff,
were sounding the alarms, but he either ignored them or didn't
hear them. So we are talking about quotes. Let us talk about
them.
In October 2014, the Governor's top legal adviser had
warned that Flint should, and I quote, ``get back on the
Detroit system as a stopgap as soon as possible before this
thing is too far out of control.'' That is the chief of staff.
In March of 2015, the Governor's own chief of staff--no,
that was his legal adviser. But his chief of staff said in
March of 2015, ``If we procrastinate any longer in doing
something direct, we will have real trouble.'' That is from the
chief of staff.
And in July, his chief of staff again warned that Flint
residents, and I quote, ``are concerned, and rightfully so,
about the lead level studies they are receiving. They are
basically getting blown off by us.''
The documents reveal failures at every level, led by
Governor Snyder's handpicked appointees, and the Governor's
fingerprints are all over this. His Department of Environmental
Quality, his Department of Health and Human Services, his inner
circle of top aides, his press staff, and his chief of staff.
And of course, the emergency managers the Governor put in
charge of Flint.
There will now be an entire generation, an entire
generation of children who suffer from brain damage, learning
disabilities, and many other horrible effects of lead poisoning
that were inflicted on them by Governor Snyder's
administration. There will be many children, Mr. Chairman, who
will sit in the second and third grade and will not be able to
read the words ``See Spot run'' and won't know why. But the
reason why is because there is lead in their veins.
Now Republicans are desperately trying to blame everything
on the EPA. So let me say this. I agree that the EPA should
have done more. They should have rushed in sooner to rescue the
people of Michigan from Governor Snyder's vindictive
administration and its utter incompetence at every level.
Governor Snyder's administration had primary responsibility
for enforcement under the Safe Drinking Water Act, not the EPA.
Governor Snyder's administration chose to switch to the Flint
River for the source of water, not the EPA. Governor Snyder's
administration ignored warnings from the Flint water treatment
plant supervisor not to go forward with the switch, not the
EPA.
Governor Snyder's administration falsely told the City of
Flint that corrosion control was unnecessary, not the EPA.
Governor Snyder's administration delayed corrosion control for
months and harmed thousands of additional people in the
process, not the EPA. Governor Snyder's administration
overruled the Flint city council's vote to return to clean
Detroit water, not the EPA, as I close.
So, yes, I agree the EPA should have snatched control out
of Governor Snyder's hands even sooner than they did. But
Governor Snyder's administration caused this horrific disaster
and poisoned the children of Flint. On the Governor's Web site,
his motto is, and I quote, ``Reinventing Michigan: Getting it
right. Getting it done.''
It is hard to imagine a more misleading slogan. It also
says this, and I quote, ``We will learn from this experience.''
And so, as I said earlier in the other hearing, these
children, when we are dead--when we are dead and gone, these
children will suffer for what we failed to do. And so, Mr.
Chairman, as I have said to you before, we have to be the last
line of defense. We have to be it. Because generations yet
unborn will suffer, but we have got to do everything in our
power to mitigate that.
I look forward to the hearing, and I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
We will hold the record open for 5 legislative days for any
Members who would like to submit a written statement.
Chairman Chaffetz. We will now recognize the first and only
panel. Pleased to welcome the Honorable Rick Snyder, who is the
Governor of the State of Michigan. We also have the Honorable
Gina McCarthy, Administrator for the Environmental Protection
Agency.
Pursuant to committee rules, if you will both rise and
raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are
about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth?
Ms. McCarthy. I do.
Governor Snyder. I do.
Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you.
Let the record reflect that both witnesses answered in the
affirmative. We normally have a 5-minute rule, but you are
welcome to take the time that you need for your verbal
comments, and your entire written statement will be made part
of the record.
Governor Snyder, you are now recognized.
WITNESS STATEMENTS
STATEMENT OF HON. RICK SNYDER
Governor Snyder. Chairman Chaffetz, Ranking Member
Cummings, and members of the committee, thank you for the
opportunity to speak with you today about the crisis in Flint
and the actions we are taking to ensure that nothing like this
ever happens again.
Let me be blunt. This was a failure of government at all
levels. Local, State, and Federal officials, we all failed the
families of Flint.
This isn't about politics, nor partisanship. I'm not going
to point fingers or shift blame. There's plenty of that to
share, and neither will help the people of Flint.
Not a day or night goes by that this tragedy doesn't weigh
on my mind--the questions I should have asked, the answers I
should have demanded, how I could have prevented this. That's
why I'm so committed to delivering permanent, long-term
solutions and clean, safe drinking water that every Michigan
citizen deserves.
Today, I'll report what we've done, what we're doing, and
what we will do to deliver real results and real relief to the
families of Flint. But before going through the facts, I want
to express my profound gratitude for the help and heroism of
Professor Marc Edwards, Dr. Mona Hanna-Attisha, and Flint
resident LeeAnne Walters.
They were among the first to sound the alarm about the
failures of government in the crisis afflicting the Flint
community. Here are the facts. From the day the City of Flint
began using the Flint River as an interim water supply on April
25, 2014, and repeatedly after that, the Department of
Environmental Quality assured us that Flint's water was safe.
It wasn't. A water expert at the Federal EPA tried to raise
the alarm in February 2015, and he was silenced. It was on
October 1, 2015, that I learned that our State experts were
wrong. Flint's water had dangerous levels of lead. On that day,
I took immediately action.
First, we quickly reconnected to the Detroit water supply
to begin sealing the damaged pipes. Second, I ordered the
immediate distribution of water filters and extensive blood
level testing in schools and homes to identify those at highest
risk so they could receive healthcare, nutrition, and
additional support.
Third, we deployed $67 million to address both short-term
needs and long-term solutions. Our focus and our priority is on
both short-term health and long-term safety. This includes
diagnostic testing, nurse visits, and environmental assessments
in the home to treat any child with high lead levels.
This is only the beginning. Right now, we're in the
appropriations process for an additional $165 million to
deliver permanent, long-term solutions. I urge Congress to pass
the bipartisan bill for aiding Flint immediately so we can
further protect the health and safety of Flint residents and
families.
From identifying every pipe that must be replaced to
providing long-term medical support, we're working with local
leaders, like Mayor Karen Weaver, and our representatives here
in Washington to deliver the assistance our citizens deserve.
We are holding those who failed accountable, and we're
being open with the public about how these failures came about,
including releasing my emails and my staff emails relating to
this water crisis. We are in the process of publicly releasing
relevant documents from the State agencies involved so the
people will have an open, honest assessment of what happened
and what we're doing to fix it.
We also began a thorough investigation of what went wrong.
We've uncovered systematic failures at the Michigan Department
of Environmental Quality. The fact is bureaucrats created a
culture that valued technical competence over common sense, and
the result was the lead was leaching into the residents' water.
That's why I'm committed to a complete and comprehensive
change in State government that puts public health and safety
first and why I've called for a thorough investigation of the
Michigan Department of Health and Human Services by the auditor
general and inspector general. We're taking responsibility in
Michigan, and we're taking action. And that's absolutely
essential here in Washington, too.
Inefficient, ineffective, and unaccountable bureaucrats at
the EPA allowed this disaster to continue unnecessarily. I'm
glad to be sitting next to the Administrator from the EPA
because all of us must acknowledge our responsibility and be
held accountable.
I do want to thank Miguel Del Toral, a water specialist at
the EPA who spoke up early about the crisis. Tragically, his
superiors at the EPA told local leaders in Flint to ignore his
call for action.
The truth is there are many communities with potentially
dangerous lead problems, and if the EPA and the DEQ do not
change and if the dumb and dangerous Federal lead and copper
rule is not changed, then this tragedy will befall other
American cities. Professor Edwards has been sounding this alarm
for years, and I look forward to joining with him to address
this failure of government.
I'm grateful to have been elected to serve the people of
Michigan. I understand their anger. I've been humbled by this
experience, and I'm going to make Flint and every community in
Michigan a better place to live. We have a lot to learn, and we
have a lot to do.
I close with a simple plea. Partner with me in fixing this,
not just for the people of Flint, but for the people all over
the country. Ranking Member Cummings is right. The American
people--this is America, and this should never have happened.
The American people deserve rules that make sense and
professionals to enforce them who know that health and safety
are urgent matters.
I can make sure that happens in Michigan. You can make sure
it happens for every American.
Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.
[Prepared statement of Governor Snyder follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you, Governor.
I recognize the Administrator of the EPA, Ms. McCarthy. You
are now recognized.
STATEMENT OF HON. GINA MCCARTHY
Ms. McCarthy. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member
Cummings, distinguished members of the committee. I want to
thank you for the opportunity to testify about EPA's response
to the drinking water crisis in Flint, Michigan.
I want to start by saying that what happened in Flint
should never have happened and can never be allowed to happen
again. The crisis that we are seeing is a result of a State-
appointed emergency manager deciding that that city would stop
purchasing treated water that it had been successfully relying
on for 50 years and instead switched to an untreated source for
the simple reason that they wanted to save money.
The State of Michigan approved that decision without
requiring corrosion control treatment. Without corrosion
control, lead leached from the pipes and fittings and fixtures
in homes and businesses and industries, and it leached into the
drinking water. These decisions are what resulted in Flint
residents being exposed to dangerously high levels of lead.
Now under the Safe Water--the Safe Drinking Water Act,
Congress gives States the primary responsibility to enforce
drinking water rules for the Nation's approximately 152,000
water systems. But EPA has oversight authority. Typically, EPA
has strong relationships with our States, and we work with them
under this act.
But looking back on Flint from day one, the State provided
our regional office with confusing, incomplete, and absolutely
incorrect information. Their interactions with us were
intransigent, misleading, and contentious. And as a result, EPA
staff had insufficient information to understand the potential
scope of the lead problem until more than a year after that
water supply was switched.
While EPA did not cause the lead problem, in hindsight, we
should not have been so trusting of the State for so long when
they provided us with overly simplistic assurances of technical
compliance rather than substantive responses to our
increasingly growing concerns.
Although EPA regional staff repeatedly asked the Michigan
Department of Environmental Quality to address the lack of
corrosion control, we missed the opportunity late summer to
quickly get EPA's concerns on the radar screen. That, I regret.
Since October, EPA has been providing technical advice to
the city. Additionally, as part of the Federal response led by
the Department of Health and Human Services, an EPA response
team of scientists, water quality experts, community
involvement coordinators, and support staff have been on the
ground every day since late July.
The EPA team has visited hundreds of homes and collected
thousands of samples to assess the city's water system. And
we're encouraged by these test results, but our enhanced
efforts with Flint will not cease until the system is fully
back on track.
Now we've also been engaging Flint residents, visiting
places of worship, schools, libraries, community centers, and
senior living facilities to hear their concerns and share
information. I have also taken several concrete steps at the
agency to address some of the systemic issues raised during the
crisis.
I directed a review of MDEQ and its ability to implement
the Safe Drinking Water Act for the very reasons that the
Governor has also so clearly articulated. I called on EPA's
inspector general to investigate EPA's response to the Flint
crisis. No, we didn't cause it, but could we have acted sooner
to correct the situation?
I issued an EPA-wide elevation memo, encouraging staff to
raise issues of concern to managers and for managers to be
welcoming of staff concerns and questions. Too much back and
forth went between EPA and the State when it should have gone
up so that we could have raised the red flag earlier.
I also recently sent letters to every Governor and every
State environmental and health commissioner in the country,
asking them to join EPA in taking action to strengthen our safe
drinking water programs, to ensure that they're looking and
working with their own communities.
Additionally, we're actively working on revisions to the
lead and copper rule. The lead and copper rule was revised
under the prior administration to streamline the monitoring and
reporting requirements. We know that it needs to be
strengthened.
While the contours of this situation are unique, the
underlying circumstances that allowed it to happen are really
not. As a country, we have a systemic problem of underinvesting
in environmental justice communities, and make no mistake about
it, this is an environmental justice community. Not only are
these underserved populations more vulnerable to impacts of
pollution, but they often lack the tools and the resources and
the voice to do something about it.
That's what stacks the deck against a city like Flint.
That's what creates an environment where a crisis like this can
happen. In many areas across our country, water infrastructure
is aging, antiquated, and several communities are severely
underfunded, particularly low-income communities, which may
have the most difficulty securing funds through rate increases
or municipal bonds.
This threatens citizens' access to safe drinking water, and
we need to start having a serious conversation with Congress
and others about how we advance the technologies and
investments necessary to keep delivering clean water to
American families.
I'm personally committed to doing everything possible to
make sure a crisis like this never happens. Going to--having
been to Flint, having met with the families, having met with
faith leaders, having looked at where we're distributing
waters, having worked hard to make sure that communities have
the information that they need to stay safe, you cannot do
anything but be personally committed.
But we know that no one portion of government can do it
alone. None of us can do it alone. We need the cooperation of
all of our colleagues at every level of government and every
branch of government and beyond.
Thank you. I look forward to answering your questions.
[Prepared statement of Ms. McCarthy follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you.
We will now recognize the gentleman from Michigan, Mr.
Walberg, for 5 minutes.
And as we start this, I remind Members, we have votes that
will happen earlier today. I really do need everybody to stick
to the 5 minutes so that we can get the maximum number of
people to participate here. Both of these people have pressing
schedules as well. So if we can adhere to the 5 minutes, I will
start to gavel you down right then.
But we will start by recognizing Mr. Walberg for 5 minutes.
Mr. Walberg. Mr. Chairman, thank you, and I will take that
certainly to heart. But I do want to thank you for the
intentional method by which you have carried on these
investigations and these hearings.
Mr. Chairman, you didn't have to do it, but you have done
it well. I am a proud Michigander, and I am proud of my State.
I am proud of the things that are taking place. This is a
problem, but I am proud of Michigan.
And for you to take serious attention to this, I thank you.
And Governor Snyder, we appreciate you voluntarily coming
today. We appreciate you voluntarily releasing all your emails
so they could be part of the record. We appreciate the fact
that you are willing to answer tough questions that this
committee will offer today and outline the steps you are taking
to solve the crisis and help Flint recover. Because we want
Flint to recover.
It is a great city. It has great workers. I have driven
great cars made in Flint, and to now have the opportunity to
look in the eyes of Flint citizens who have experienced this
tragedy, a human-made tragedy.
Governor, let me ask you, when did you first learn of the
instances of--a question here that was brought up just the
other day as well, and there is a concern--instances of
Legionnaire's disease in Flint?
Governor Snyder. Yes, in terms of Legionnaire's, I didn't
learn of that until 2016. And as soon as I became aware of it,
we held a press conference the next day. That was clearly a
case where the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services
should have done more to escalate the issue, to get it visible
to the public and to me.
Mr. Walberg. I have documents here today that show your
staff was receiving information about Legionnaire's in March of
2015. In an email on March 13th of 2015, a senior DEQ staff
member, Brad Wurfel, emailed another member of your staff,
Harvey Hollins, stating that there was a, and I quote,
``significant uptick in cases of Legionnaire's disease in
Flint.''
There is also an email to your spokesperson, Sara Wurfel,
showing that she was aware of the issue. And in another email,
Brad Wurfel indicated that he wanted to raise the issue with
your chief of staff, Dennis Muchmore.
The information was in the highest levels of your executive
office 10 months before you knew. Did you speak with them about
it?
Governor Snyder. No. I don't recall any mention of that to
me. And I don't recall seeing those emails or being part of any
of those discussions.
Mr. Walberg. If that is the case, what can you tell us
about whether there is a connection between an outbreak of
Legionnaire's and the Flint River?
Governor Snyder. Well, obviously, given the change in water
source, it's a concern, and we're going through the
investigation at this point, and all parties are cooperating.
The Federal Government, State government, outside experts are
all working this issue.
We actually brought in expertise from Wayne State
University that I know you're familiar with, Congressman
Walberg--an outstanding institution--in terms of an additional
researcher to look at the causation connection.
I'm happy to share some information with you that will give
some perspective on the number of cases and what we have
information on so far. I actually have a chart. I don't know if
it's available to people, but I'd be happy to share that in
terms of seeing some of the numbers themselves.
Mr. Walberg. I would ask the chairman if we could have that
submitted for the record.
Chairman Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered.
Chairman Chaffetz. We'll get a copy and distribute it to
Members as soon as we can photocopy it. If staff could come
down and get that piece of paper, that would be great.
Mr. Walberg. Okay.
Governor Snyder. What I would also say is I've also asked
for an investigation by the inspector general and the auditor
general of the State of Michigan, which is an independent
organization, to go look at the Department of Health and Human
Services with respect to this whole discussion of what was
disclosed, the processing of this, because this should have
been handled better.
Mr. Walberg. Yes. Administrator McCarthy, does the Safe
Drinking Water Act provide you with the authority to act in a
situation like Flint?
Ms. McCarthy. It does when we have the appropriate
information, sir. Yes.
Mr. Walberg. Upon receipt--it says, ``Upon receipt of
information, the EPA Administrator may take any action she
deems necessary to protect human health.'' On September26,
2015, you wrote an email to an EPA official that appeared in
the AP last night, in fact, a report. You said the situation in
Flint could, and I quote, ``get very big quickly.''
You didn't act until January 21, 2016. Why?
Ms. McCarthy. Well, sir, the action that we were
recommending or would have taken was action that was already
happening. It was only until January did I realize that the
State wasn't continuing and the city wasn't moving forward
quickly enough to address the issue. But that was very late in
the game, sir.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman's time has expired.
Members are advised that the piece of paper the Governor was
referring to is evidently already in all of the packets. I
believe it is the last page.
Thank you.
I will now recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr.
Cartwright, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Cartwright. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Governor Snyder, I would like to ask you some simple
questions, and I remind you that you are under oath today.
First, I think you said this in your testimony, but you do
admit here today before this committee that you and your
administration failed the people of Flint?
Governor Snyder. I've made that clear in terms of my
``state of the State'' address, where I said ----
Mr. Cartwright. And your own task force found that your
Department of Environmental Quality was ``primarily responsible
for the crisis in Flint.'' Do you also admit that here today?
Governor Snyder. Yes, and I took actions immediately based
on their recommendations.
Mr. Cartwright. Your task force found that your officials
at MDEQ did not implement corrosion control, which ``led
directly to the contamination of the Flint water system.'' Do
you admit that here today?
Governor Snyder. The lack of corrosion controls led to this
issue.
Mr. Cartwright. And you admit that it was your officials at
MDEQ that did not implement corrosion control, which led to
that, right?
Governor Snyder. They did not instruct the City of Flint to
do corrosion controls.
Mr. Cartwright. Is that a yes?
Governor Snyder. Again, they wouldn't be doing the
corrosion controls. That's a city responsibility. But they
failed in what I deem would have been common sense to say they
should have.
Mr. Cartwright. Governor Snyder, do you admit that you
personally received a letter on January 18, 2015, from Flint's
Mayor, begging you to take action and warning, ``There is
nothing more important in Flint right now than fixing the water
problems.'' On January 18, 2015, do you admit receiving that
letter?
Governor Snyder. I received a letter from the Mayor dated
that, and I took action on items within that letter.
Mr. Cartwright. I am asking you about January 18, 2015.
This is Exhibit D that we have marked for you.
Governor Snyder. Yes. Could you share the letter with me so
I could confirm that?
Mr. Cartwright. Would you hand him the letter, please? It
is marked as Exhibit D. We will ask that this be made part of
the record, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Cartwright. January 18, 2015, from Dayne Walling, the
Mayor, last paragraph on the second page, it is directed to you
specifically, and he says, ``There is nothing more important in
Flint right now than fixing the water problems.'' Do you see
that?
Governor Snyder. I do.
Mr. Cartwright. Do you admit getting that letter?
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Mr. Cartwright. All right. The Mayor asked you repeatedly
to come to Flint during the crisis. Do you admit today you
didn't show up for more than 7 months after he asked you?
Governor Snyder. Actually, I'm not familiar. I'd have to
check my schedule.
Mr. Cartwright. Well, that is what he says. You didn't go
to Flint until October 2015. Is that right?
Governor Snyder. I don't know if that's correct or not.
Mr. Cartwright. You don't know. You admit here today to
seeing headline after headline about health problems, hair
loss, rashes, ecoli, bacteria, sewage, Legionnaire's disease.
Did you read any of those stories, Governor Snyder?
Governor Snyder. Congressman, I read a number of those
stories. What I would tell you is those stories, we would
follow up on them and continue to get reaffirmation from career
bureaucrats that the water was safe. That was wrong. That was
not correct information.
Mr. Cartwright. Do you admit here today that more cases of
Legionnaire's disease were reported since the switch to the
Flint River than ``all the cases in the last 5 years or more
combined?'' Do you admit that?
Governor Snyder. Yes. And that's why I provided a table
that shows a number of these cases ----
Mr. Cartwright. You do?
Governor Snyder.--were at healthcare facilities. In terms
of the numbers, there were 87 cases in a 2-year period.
Mr. Cartwright. You admit here today that even after the
whole world knew that Flint residents were exposed ----
Governor Snyder. Congressman, I ----
Mr. Cartwright.--to unimaginable levels of lead, you did
not declare a state of emergency until January 2016. Isn't that
true?
Governor Snyder. I took immediate action as soon as I
learned there was a lead issue. We started issuing filters to
people, doing water testing, doing blood testing, and to be
honest with you, I wish more would have been done.
Mr. Cartwright. Governor Snyder, plausible deniability only
works when it is plausible, and I am not buying that you didn't
know about any of this until October 2015. You were not in a
medically induced coma for a year.
And I have had about enough of your false contrition and
your phony apologies. Susan Hedman, from the EPA, bears not
one-tenth of the responsibility of the State of Michigan and
your administration, and she resigned. And there you are,
dripping with guilt, but drawing your paycheck, hiring lawyers
at the expense of the people, and doing your dead-level best to
spread accountability to others and not being accountable.
It is not appropriate. Pretty soon, we will have men who
strike their wives, saying ``I am sorry, dear, but there were
failures at all levels.''
People who put dollars over the fundamental safety of the
people do not belong in government, and you need to resign,
too, Governor Snyder.
I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman yields back.
We will now recognize the gentleman from Michigan, Mr.
Amash, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Amash. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Administrator McCarthy. And I would like to
welcome you, Governor Snyder, and thank you for your
willingness to appear before this committee.
Governor, you spoke about the broken culture at many of the
agencies in State government. How are you working to change the
culture within the agencies, specifically the Michigan
Department of Environmental Quality, that were negligent or
reckless and failed the citizens of Flint?
Governor Snyder. I began by changing leadership. I accepted
the resignation of the department director, and to put it in
perspective, this was a department director that had served
under two prior Governors with distinction.
But we had this issue. It was time to accept his
resignation. Essentially, under civil service rules, we've
terminated the head of the water division. That was the one
that made the terrible decisions with her team to say it should
be two 6-month studies instead of doing corrosion control. She
was a 28-year veteran of the department.
We're going to spend time. We are going to change this
culture. A bureaucratic culture that focuses on technical
compliance and doesn't have a sense of urgency should not be
serving our citizens. There are many good, hard-working people
that do work for the State of Michigan. There are 47,000.
But I am committed to finding the instances where these
people who haven't gotten the idea that we work for the
citizens, and I am going to be relentless in following up to
make sure we make the changes necessary that this never happens
again, whether it's in a water area or any area of our State.
Mr. Amash. Governor, did State employees intentionally
withhold information from you?
Governor Snyder. I don't believe that was the case. What I
would also say is we had a report from the Office of Auditor
General that responded to Senator Ananich, and I know you're
familiar with Senator Ananich, that one of their conclusions
was is I don't believe they found any willful
misrepresentation.
Mr. Amash. And what are you doing to make sure that State
employees communicate with you, especially regarding issues of
great importance like the people of Flint?
Governor Snyder. I stood up in front of the entire State of
Michigan in my ``state of the State'' address and said these
people that made these terrible decisions that showed a clear
lack of common sense failed us. But since they work for me, I
am responsible for their actions, and I take that
responsibility. And I kick myself every single day about what I
could have done to do more.
But I told the people of Michigan that there's a
commitment, a passionate commitment to say we are going to
change the culture in these places. I apologized to the people
of Flint. They deserve that. I understand why they are angry.
It's terrible what they're having to go through.
But I made a commitment to fix the problem. I can't take
some damage that's been done, as Ranking Member Cummings said,
but there's a lot we can do to help the people of Flint address
so many issues. And I am absolutely committed to do that, and
we are following through and getting that done.
And I'm going back to Flint tomorrow to roll up my sleeves
and keep working that issue.
Mr. Amash. Governor, what is the State's expected budget
surplus, and how much of that money will be spent on helping
the people of Flint?
Governor Snyder. In terms of--I presented the budget in
February for the State. In terms of surplus, we're actually
going through two or three steps. I've asked for a total,
including two supplementals or three supplementals have already
been passed. But a total of $232 million to help address issues
in Flint, covering all areas from the water system and
infrastructure to nutrition, to health, to well-being, to
economic development.
All these fields, to do whatever we can possible in terms
of improving things in Flint. Several of these have already
passed our legislature. In addition, I asked for $165 million
that would have been a rainy day fund deposit to go into a
State infrastructure fund to say this is not an issue just for
Flint, but let's start putting aside the long-term resources to
say we have an infrastructure problem in the State of Michigan
that's a national problem.
Let's get these lead pipes out of the ground. Let's look at
setting the right standards. That's why I called the Federal
lead and copper rule dumb and dangerous. It is.
And in Michigan, I'm making a commitment. I will be
proposing legislation. I will be pushing to do everything to
put a much more stringent standard in because the people of our
State and our country deserve better than they're getting
today.
Mr. Amash. I have a question for Administrator McCarthy. If
Susan Hedman had not resigned, would you have fired her?
Ms. McCarthy. That was an issue I didn't need to face, sir.
As you know, Susan took the choice to submit her resignation,
knowing that people would question whether that meant she
accepted some type of guilt or responsibility for this.
She fully accepted responsibility for the situation, and
she resigned, and I accepted that resignation. I thought it was
the right step for her to take.
Mr. Amash. So the question remains, though. Would you have
fired her?
Ms. McCarthy. I--I--I didn't have to face that decision,
sir.
Mr. Amash. I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman's ----
Mr. Amash. Yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman's time has expired.
I now recognize the gentlewoman from the District of
Columbia, Ms. Norton, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I very much appreciate this hearing, and I appreciate both
of you coming.
I went to Flint, Michigan, especially since the District of
Columbia had its own corrosion, lead corrosion crisis about 15
years ago. I was impressed with the many Federal agencies that
were there.
But I see responsibility on the part of the Federal and the
State levels, and I think this House has found this, and I
commend the House for passing a bill from the Energy and
Commerce Committee that says that--and is pending in the
Senate--that the EPA must notify residents when water samples
show lead levels for the highest 10 percent of homes at above
15 parts per billion, if State and local agencies don't do it.
So this protocol, this banter between the State and the
Federal agencies is very distressing when you're talking about
irreversible lead in the water. But Governor Snyder, you
appointed your own task force. It appears not to have minced
any words. It is a task force that, to your credit, you
appointed in December 2015.
And it says that the State of Michigan bears, and here I am
quoting their words, ``primary responsibility,'' for the water
crisis in Flint. Do you accept this conclusion from your own
task force, the people you, I take it, appointed?
Governor Snyder. Congresswoman, I appreciate you
referencing that group. Actually, I appointed them in October
within 2 weeks of learning of this crisis because I believe we
needed outside ----
Ms. Norton. Well, this--I have to give you credit because
this task force, this task force seems to have operated very
independently. And here I am quoting them again.
I believe--``We believe the primary responsibility for what
happened in Flint rests with the Michigan Department of
Environmental Quality. Although many individuals and entities
at State and local levels contributed to creating and
prolonging the problem, the MDEQ is the government agency that
has responsibility to ensure safe drinking water in Michigan.
It failed that responsibility.''
Governor Snyder. And I accepted the report, and I took
immediate action ----
Ms. Norton. Thank you very much. I am just trying to make
clear, and to your credit, you ought to want to spread this on
the record because this task force--and here is what is really
interesting to hear them say, and here I am quoting them, found
that there was ``aggressive dismissal, belittlement, and
attempts to discredit those efforts and the individuals
involved.''
Do you agree with this finding of your own task force?
Governor Snyder. I do. And those things never should have
happened, and those folks are no longer with us.
Ms. Norton. Thank you, Governor.
This quote seems to--this quote seems to indicate that
there was an attempt to discredit the work of others who
apparently ultimately proved to be right. And again, I am
giving you credit for this task force, but I think this task
force shows that the State has accepted the responsibility.
The most serious finding was that the task force found that
Michigan actually caused this poisoning. It said officials, and
I quote, ``did not require'' switch--require--the task force
found that ``the lead and copper rule required corrosion
control treatment.'' That is to keep lead from leaching into
the water, which your officials, and I quote them, said it was
``not required'' when the switch to the Flint River.
They are saying that they found it was ``not necessary,''
according to the task force report, and that this failure ``led
directly to the contamination of the Flint River water
system.''
It seems to me, Governor, that your administration has
already taken responsibility for what happened and that your
own task force takes that responsibility. It seems to me here
today, each and every response should be to echo your own task
force, that the responsibility lay with the State of Michigan.
It knew what--the State knew what to do in time, and it did not
know--and it did not do what it knew had to be done.
And I thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman yields back.
I now recognize the gentleman from Florida, Mr. Mica, for 5
minutes.
Mr. Mica. Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, I think a
lot more failed in Flint than the water. It is a failed city.
We have many of them not only in Michigan, but across the
country.
Since we started these hearings, it is amazing. I have
talked to staff, and we have gotten information that probably
dozens of communities are facing the same thing. And they are
coming forward and saying that they have unsafe drinking water
and high levels of lead, and their kids are being poisoned.
Governor, you did take some action, and some people have
been fired. Is that correct?
Governor Snyder. Correct.
Mr. Mica. I guess the Flint water head, several others, and
you suspended other people. Is that correct?
Governor Snyder. Correct.
Mr. Mica. And you said everyone shares some blame,
including yourself, right?
Governor Snyder. Correct.
Mr. Mica. What disturbs me is--well, first of all,
Administrator McCarthy, you had the ability to act when you
find out that things aren't going right in these systems. You
have the compliance authority under law, don't you?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes, sir. Yes, sir.
Mr. Mica. And who was fired or held accountable in EPA?
Ms. McCarthy. Well, sir, you have to look at whether or not
----
Mr. Mica. Was anyone fired?
Ms. McCarthy. No, sir.
Mr. Mica. In fact, what disturbs me, I checked to see like
Hedman, who was in charge. She was underneath you as a regional
administrator.
Ms. McCarthy. Regional Administrator Hedman, yes.
Mr. Mica. She was getting vacation time bonuses, got the
last one May 28th while--the regional administrator is getting
vacation time bonuses while the kids are getting poisoned. She
finally resigned herself. You never fired anyone.
You have great people working at EPA.
Ms. McCarthy. Thank you.
Mr. Mica. This Mr. Del Toral should get a Congressional
Gold Medal. Mrs. Walters blew the whistle. She came to the
local authorities. We had the Mayor in here. She told me in
March of 2015, she met the Mayor at the library, and he
promised to do everything.
She went to City Hall April 3rd or at the beginning of
April, and no one would see her. She was put off. And to the
day of the hearing the other day, the Mayor had never talked to
her after that.
This--and I said this, now you are pretty experienced. You
head the EPA. You can read Del Toral's report. It is incredibly
accurate.
Ms. McCarthy. Which one, sir?
Mr. Mica. This is dated in June, and not a damned thing was
done until--really until January of this year.
Ms. McCarthy. I think ----
Mr. Mica. And I went back and asked Mrs. Walters, I said,
well, when did they finally come in? Because the Mayor and
others and your EPA administrator from the district said that,
``Oh, we acted immediately.'' They didn't act. They gagged Mr.
Del Toral.
Did you ever see this report, Administrator?
Ms. McCarthy. I did see that report, sir, yes.
Mr. Mica. When did you see the report?
Ms. McCarthy. I don't recall the exact day.
Mr. Mica. Well, in the June, last summer?
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, I would suggest ----
Mr. Mica. Did you see this report?
Ms. McCarthy. Of course ----
Mr. Mica. Again, a high school student could take this
report and determine that kids were getting poisoned. He
confirmed it. He went in and tested everything, the pipes in
the building. He looked at the lead lines. He did a thorough
examination. Then he detailed all the things we have heard
about, this calendar of failure of Flint--the Legionella, et
cetera, violations going back.
And you told me you had the authority. You have the
compliance authority. Did you ever shut these programs down or
go after them?
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, we went ----
Mr. Mica. You did not.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay.
Mr. Mica. You did not. No one acted. Now I heard calls for
resignation. I think you should be at the top of the list.
Ms. McCarthy. Mm-hmm.
Mr. Mica. Again ----
Ms. McCarthy. Well, sir, if you'd let me answer, I might be
able to answer ----
Mr. Mica.--our job, the local job that they failed at the
local level, they failed at the State level, and we failed at
the Federal level, and who is in charge? The district head gets
a vacation bonus. The kids get lead poison. And you are still
in office.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman yields back.
Ms. McCarthy. Thanks for opportunity to answer.
Mr. Mica. You are welcome.
Chairman Chaffetz. Did you have something you wanted to
say?
Ms. McCarthy. It would be good if I could, sir. If you
wouldn't mind?
Chairman Chaffetz. Sure.
Ms. McCarthy. Well, I think it's important to know that
when we found out finally because the MDEQ told us on April
24th prior to that, that there was no corrosion control
treatment, reversing what they had earlier told us that they
did corrosion control in this system, that we had already told
MDEQ that they actually had to require the City of Flint to
move ahead with corrosion control treatment well in advance of
that memo.
Mr. Mica. This is ----
Chairman Chaffetz. Let her finish.
Ms. McCarthy. Thank you.
And we consistently said the same thing. That is a report
on three homes in the same area. Because of the complexity of
lead, we did not and could not have made a concerted judgment
about whether it was a systemic problem.
When we had the information, when we received it from MDEQ,
which wasn't until July 21st, we told them we're done talking.
We now know it's a systemic problem. You do it, or we'll do it.
They said, ``We'll do it.''
And since that point in time, MDEQ slow-walked everything
they needed to do. That precluded us from being able to jump in
to the rescue. That is what--that is what happened.
And if people are worried about whether we silenced Miguel
Del Toral, Miguel is a hero in this. He remains a central part
of our decision-making. He is one of our experts we rely on.
The simple fact is that MDEQ was the one who told everybody
outside that he was a rogue employee to discredit him, just as
the MDEQ was doing, as the Governor's task force said, in
trying to discredit anybody who said there was a problem with
that drinking water system.
We were strong-armed. We were misled. We were kept on arm's
length. We couldn't do our jobs effectively.
Mr. Mica. Mr. Chairman, I just ask that Mr. Del Toral's
report of June be included in the record at this point.
Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered.
Chairman Chaffetz. Wow, you just don't get it. You just
don't get it. You still don't get it.
I will now recognize the gentleman from Virginia, Mr.
Connolly.
Mr. Connolly. Well, Mr. Chairman, thank you.
I get it. We are trying to make sure that blame is shifted
here. It is interesting, for a committee that has practiced
Alice in Wonderland techniques with management, ``Off with your
head.'' So when there is a problem at OPM, off with the head of
the head of OPM. Off with the head of the CIO at OPM. Off with
the head of John Koskinen, the head of IRS. Off with the head
of Lois Lerner.
But Governor Snyder, apparently my friends on the other
side of the aisle want to make sure your head is securely on
your shoulders.
Governor Snyder, do you believe in the philosophy of
government that says we ought to push responsibility and power
to the lowest level we can, as close to the people as we can?
Governor Snyder. As a general rule, yes.
Mr. Connolly. So in November 2012, the citizens of your
State rejected the emergency manager law you had advocated in a
referendum. Is that correct?
Governor Snyder. Correct.
Mr. Connolly. And yet, 6 weeks later, you reintroduced
legislation that was approved by the Republican-controlled
legislature for a new emergency manager law, PA-436. Is that
correct?
Governor Snyder. There was a law that took into account the
concerns of the citizens, and it was passed by a duly elected
legislature that represents the people of the State of
Michigan.
Mr. Connolly. So that law then allowed you to bypass the
local governance of the City of Flint and to appoint an
emergency manager to act for and in the place and stead of the
government--of the governing body and the Office of Chief
Administrative Officer of the local government ``from the
law.'' Is that correct?
Governor Snyder. Going back to your original question, you
said ``generally.'' This is a case where there was failure in
terms of city management ----
Mr. Connolly. I appreciate it, but I am just asking a yes/
no here. Did you appoint an emergency manager, pursuant to that
law?
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Mr. Connolly. Yes. And that meant the Mayor and city
council could not exercise any powers unless your handpicked
emergency manager let them. Is that correct?
Governor Snyder. Initially, yes.
Mr. Connolly. Last week, our committee staff traveled to
Flint, and they conducted a transcribed interview of the last
emergency manager appointed--you appointed, Gerald Ambrose. By
the way, you appointed, not Ms. McCarthy. We asked him if he
considered the city council impotent during his tenure. His
answer on the record was ``absolutely.''
Do you know how many pages of edicts were issued by your
appointed emergency managers in this tragic time period,
Governor?
Governor Snyder. No, but also let me respond to your
comment about Ambrose.
Mr. Connolly. Well, hold on. Let me just show you because I
only got 5 minutes. Ladies and gentlemen--hold them up, please.
These are the stacks of edicts issued by your emergency
managers, not by the city council of Flint. Now do you how many
of those 8,000 pages dealt with meaningful steps to protect the
citizens of Flint from lead flowing through their pipes,
Governor? Your appointees?
Governor Snyder. No.
Mr. Connolly. Not one. Not one.
Governor Snyder. Congressman, I encourage you to look at --
--
Mr. Connolly. Now wait a minute. Wait a minute, Governor.
It is my 5 minutes. I am sorry. I wish I had 10. Then I could
give you all the time in the world.
This is a failure of a philosophy of governance you
advocated. There is no evidence--even after you were warned by
the Mayor of Flint they had problems and he begged you to come
to Flint, you ignored him. We have no evidence of you traveling
to Flint for 7 months, Governor. Seven months.
I am glad you are sorry now. I am glad you are taking
action now. But it is a little bit late for the kids in Flint
whose health has been compromised, for people whose health and
immunity systems were already compromised, for a city in
America that is on its knees because of your emergency
manager's decision to save $4 million.
And now it is going to cost a lot more to clean up, and the
taint and the stain that State government has put on this
country in the form of Flint will be a long time being erased.
You know, at some point, the buck stops at your office,
Governor, with your Department of Environmental Quality that
collapsed, with your emergency managers who were guilty of
hubris. They knew better than the local elected officials of
Flint, and they ignored all the warning signs.
That is the record, Governor. That is your record. And at
some point, the buck has to stop at your desk.
I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman's time has expired.
We will now recognize the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr.
Desjarlais, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Desjarlais. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And before I yield my time to my good friend from Michigan,
Mr. Walberg, I would respectfully ask Administrator McCarthy to
consider scrapping the waters of the U.S. rule, as it is clear
that EPA cannot currently handle the issues on its plate.
And I now yield my time to the gentleman from Michigan.
Mr. Walberg. I thank the gentleman from Tennessee.
On September 26, 2015, Ms. McCarthy, you received an email
from Peter Grevatt, Director of the EPA's Office of Groundwater
and Drinking Water. The whole point of the email was actually
to share Marc Edwards' documentation of the Flint drinking
water problems.
Mr. Edwards ends the email asking the EPA to, and I quote,
``immediately take decisive action on this issue to protect the
public.'' Did you read the September 25th email that included
Marc Edwards' request for action?
Ms. McCarthy. I did.
Mr. Walberg. Dr. Edwards is very familiar to this committee
and the people of Flint. Do you know who Marc Edwards is?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes. Yes, we've met.
Mr. Walberg. You have met?
Ms. McCarthy. We had a meeting, yes.
Mr. Walberg. How long have you known of Dr. Edwards and his
work on the water quality?
Ms. McCarthy. It's just related to Flint, sir. We actually
have a contract with him to do work with us right now.
Mr. Walberg. Do you believe Marc Edwards is an expert on
water treatment and corrosion?
Ms. McCarthy. I think he is one expert, yes. I would also
acknowledge that EPA has a number of others.
Mr. Walberg. The Edwards email gives--including Mr. Del
Toral. The Edwards email gives key points, summary at the end
documenting that there is no corrosion control treatment. The
people can't afford bottled water. MDEQ is continuing to insist
the water is safe and that they know of a child with elevated
blood levels already.
If you received an email documenting all these problems on
September 25th, including the fact that children have elevated
blood lead levels, why didn't you act until January 21, 2016?
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, you're incorrect in saying ----
Mr. Walberg. I am not incorrect.
Ms. McCarthy. You are incorrect in saying that we did not
act.
Mr. Walberg. We have emails to do this. We have records as
well.
Ms. McCarthy. Can I point out ----
Mr. Walberg. You continue to not take responsibility,
including writing articles about it. Dr. Edwards is an expert
on this issue.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Walberg. The people of Flint understand that. He has
been there. You didn't even show up until February of this
year, and I remind the Members on the other of the aisle the
Governor has been there many days. This Administrator of EPA
didn't show up until February.
Dr. Edwards said in testimony before this committee that
Susan Hedman, who you won't fire, you wouldn't fire. You
wouldn't even give an answer if you would. That Hedman's
response was completely unacceptable and criminal. That is what
Mr. Edwards said.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Walberg. Please tell the people of Flint sitting behind
you and this committee why Marc Edwards is wrong.
Ms. McCarthy. Well, Marc Edwards is a good scientist, and I
respect him. If you look at the timeline of when we received
that email, you will find that the city and county health
advisory about the Flint water went out on the same day. You
will find that October 1, they were noticed to have no drinking
of that water without protection.
You will find that on October 2nd, the Governor put out a
10-point plan. On October 3rd, the filters were being
distributed. I cannot--there is no switch that I can turn on
that would have ----
Mr. Walberg. And I am hearing nothing of your action on
that, and you have the law on your side that says in any, any
event of imminent danger or health risk, you have the
responsibility to act. You wrote ----
Ms. McCarthy. At that point in time, the damage had been
done ----
Mr. Walberg. You wrote an op-ed. Excuse me.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay. Okay.
Mr. Walberg. I will give you a chance.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Walberg. You wrote an op-ed in the Washington Post ----
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Walberg.--which stated the EPA's regional office was
also provided with confusing, incomplete, and incorrect
information.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Walberg. As a result, EPA staff members were unable to
understand the scope of the lead problem until more than a year
after the switch to untreated water. Did the EPA confirm in
early 2015 that Flint's water pipes lacked corrosion control?
Ms. McCarthy. In early--no, sir. I did not know that. The
staff were unaware of that.
Mr. Walberg. They were unaware of that?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes. In fact, they were told directly by MDEQ
on February ----
Mr. Walberg. What about Mr. Del Toral?
Ms. McCarthy.--that Flint has optimized corrosion ----
Mr. Walberg. He was disciplined.
Ms. McCarthy. He was not disciplined.
Mr. Walberg. Oh, yes, he was.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay. Well, he was not.
Mr. Walberg. That is a matter of record as well.
Ms. McCarthy. No, I'm sorry, sir. It isn't. It's a matter
of record that he was not.
Mr. Walberg. At Tuesday's hearing, Dr. Edwards said some of
the documents he received from EPA through FOIA requests are
nearing 90 percent redacted. Dr. Edwards waited 10 years in
some cases to receive a response to EPA FOIA requests. How is
this acceptable from an expert?
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman's time has expired, but
the Administrator may answer.
Ms. McCarthy. Well, I wanted you to be all clear that the
emergency order that I issued in January was because of
continued failure to address the issue. If there was anything
that I could have done, any switch that I could turn on that
would have precluded us or allowed us to go further than what
was already happening at that time, I would have pulled that
switch.
What we needed was exactly starting. Were we late in
getting it done? Yes. Are there consequences to that?
Absolutely. We have--actually, our regional administrator
worked very hard to get MDEQ to do their job to get these
actions in place. So when you're asking did I receive an email
on a given date, I did. The actions were moving. There was
nothing else I could have ordered that would have made that
move faster.
But I did issue an order in January because even after all
of this, the order that I issued was questioned by this State,
by MDEQ, by this State as was that really legally solid. Up
until today, they continue to drag their feet.
Chairman Chaffetz. The--go ahead, Governor. Go ahead, if
you want to.
Governor Snyder. Yes, I'm sorry, Mr. Chairman. But you can
only take so much at some point, and all I would do is go to
the record. And what I would suggest is people look at three
emails.
There's an email going back to June 8th '15 from Jennifer
Crooks from the EPA. It's an agenda for Michigan's semi-annual
call. There's an email on July 21st '15 from Tinka Hyde. A
briefing paper with the MDEQ talking about the Federal lead and
copper rule, including Flint water. On 9/10/15, there is an EPA
email talking about coming up with a joint strategic action
plan about the EPA and the MDEQ working together.
They were in regular dialogue. They're talking about how to
do things together. And when I read these things, I'm ready to
get sick. We need urgency. We needed action, and they keep on
talking.
And it's not about fighting. They're just not getting the
job done. We messed up in Michigan to begin with by doing two
studies instead of corrosion controls. That fundamentally
caused this problem. I have accepted responsibility because
those people work for me.
But it's something different to have this continuing
dialogue to say it was solely us. This could have been stopped
sooner if other people could have also spoken up. I'm always
going to kick myself that our people should have spoken up. I
should have asked tougher questions. I should have done more.
But to also say the EPA just didn't get information, I just
ask you to take the time to go look at those three emails, and
that will clear the record up.
Chairman Chaffetz. Thank you. Appreciate it.
We now recognize the ranking member, Mr. Cummings, for 5
minutes.
Mr. Cummings. Let us talk about emails, Governor Snyder.
You have represented to the public that you were unaware of the
disaster building in Flint until September 2015. I find it hard
to believe that a crisis of this magnitude completely escaped
your attention for so long.
It is clear that your senior staff, people who report
directly to you daily, were very aware of what was taking place
in Flint. October 12, 2014, one of your top advisers wrote an
email to your chief of staff Dennis Muchmore, saying this, and
I quote.
``As you know, there have been problems with the Flint
water quality since they left the DWSD system, which was a
decision by the emergency manager there. I think that we should
ask the emergency manager to consider coming back to the
Detroit system in full or in part as an interim solution to
both the quality and now the financial problems that the
current solution is causing. I see this as an urgent matter to
fix.''
Governor, did your chief of staff, who I assume reports
directly to you, your right-hand man, did he tell you these
concerns urgently needed to be fixed in October 2014? Did he
tell you that?
Governor Snyder. I don't recall. I recall during that time
period we had issues, and I got briefings, and we discussed
issues about color and odor of the water.
Mr. Cummings. Okay.
Governor Snyder. There was also a concern about E. coli.
Mr. Cummings. Okay. You said ----
Governor Snyder. So there were several issues, but none of
them related to lead because these ----
Mr. Cummings. But you knew--you know there was a problem
with the water?
Governor Snyder. Again, I ----
Mr. Cummings. You didn't get the email, did you?
Governor Snyder. I did not get that email.
Mr. Cummings. Okay.
Governor Snyder. Right now.
Mr. Cummings. I remind you you are under oath.
Governor Snyder. To my knowledge, I did not receive that
email.
Mr. Cummings. Okay, I hear you. In February 2015, your
chief of staff made the following statement, and I quote,
``After all, if the GM refuses to use --'' GM, GM as in General
Motors--``refuses to use the water in their plant and our own
agencies are warning people not to drink it, the differential
between what we now collect and what we would pay DWSD is not
significant. We look pretty stupid hiding behind some financial
statement.''
Did you talk to him about the concerns in February 2015?
Governor Snyder. I can't recall specific discussions, but
we had continuing dialogue about color, odor issues in the
water. We were tracking issues that were resolved on E. coli,
on TTHM. The GM issue was a matter of chloride in the water. It
was acceptable, according to our experts, for human
consumption. It did create issues ----
Mr. Cummings. Although it was rusting away brand new--the
water was rusting away brand new parts at GM, it was okay for
human consumption? Is that your--and I don't think that was Mr.
Earley's testimony, by the way.
Governor Snyder. To put it in perspective, Ranking Member
Cummings, these are the kind of red flags, though, that I kick
myself.
Mr. Cummings. Okay.
Governor Snyder. Where you wish you would have asked more
questions.
Mr. Cummings. Well, let me--you got some more kicking to
do.
Governor Snyder. I was getting advice that the ----
Mr. Cummings. Oh, no, no, no. I want you to finish your
kicks. On March 2, 2015, your chief of staff offered the
following assessment about Flint. ``It is tough for everyday
people to listen to financial issues and water mumbo-jumbo when
all they see is problems. If we procrastinate much longer in
doing something direct, we will have real trouble.''
Governor, did your chief of staff, your right-hand man,
talk to you back in March?
Governor Snyder. My chief of staff, we had ongoing
discussions. I can't recall a specific discussion in March. We
had ongoing discussions, and he was right to raise concerns.
Mr. Cummings. All right.
Governor Snyder. We took actions, including the maximum
grant we are allowed to do is a $2 million we did earlier in
the year to help Flint with water infrastructure. We also were
working on getting filters. Concerned pastors came to us, and
we got ----
Mr. Cummings. All right. I am running out of time, and I
want to be obedient to the time restraints.
The next day, Mr. Muchmore complained of the lack of--
``lack of empathy for the residents.'' Again, this is your
right-hand man, and he subsequently said this on your DEQ
director, Dan Wyant, and I quote, ``I really don't think people
are getting the benefit of the doubt. Now they are concerned,
rightfully so, about the lead level studies they are receiving
from the DEQ samples. These folks are scared and worried about
the health impact, and they are basically getting blown off by
us.''
Governor, did you talk to your chief of staff about those
concerns?
Governor Snyder. I had continuing dialogues with my chief
of staff, and he went out and sought advice or expertise from
the career bureaucrats not just in one department, but in the
Department of Environmental Quality.
Mr. Cummings. All right.
Governor Snyder. Our experts continued to reaffirm the
water was safe. The people in the Department of Health and
Human Services kept on saying they didn't see an elevation in
blood lead levels, and they were wrong. That was the problem.
Mr. Cummings. Governor, it seems like there are two basic
possibilities. Either your chief of staff told you about these
concerns and you did nothing, or he didn't tell you and you are
an absentee Governor.
I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the ranking member.
I will now recognize myself for 5 minutes.
Governor, you have apologized. Correct?
Governor Snyder. Correct.
Chairman Chaffetz. There have been people that have been
fired?
Governor Snyder. Correct.
Chairman Chaffetz. Anybody also dismissed or otherwise
retired?
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Chairman Chaffetz. Did the State of Michigan do something
wrong?
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Chairman Chaffetz. Administrator McCarthy, did the EPA do--
in your mind, did the EPA do anything wrong?
Ms. McCarthy. I don't know whether we did everything right.
That's the challenge that I'm facing.
Chairman Chaffetz. The challenge you are facing right now
is my question. And my question is did the EPA do anything
wrong?
Ms. McCarthy. I think we could have been--I would hope that
we would have been more aggressive. I would hope that we would
have escalated this issue. If we could have done absolutely
anything to stand on a rooftop and scream about the challenges
we're having ----
Chairman Chaffetz. Okay. So you are just not--here is the
fundamental difference. First of all, we have jurisdiction here
in Congress on the EPA. I don't have jurisdiction on the
Governor. I don't have jurisdiction. I have jurisdiction to
call him up here, and Republicans did call him up here. He
volunteered to be here.
And we are investigating. This is our third hearing on this
topic. But here is the fundamental difference, and I hope you
and I hope everybody understands this. I see responsibility. I
see people that are getting fired. I see changes. I see
admission that there was fundamental wrongs that happened in
the organization.
But then when I turn to the EPA, has anybody been fired?
That is a question.
Ms. McCarthy. No, sir.
Chairman Chaffetz. Has anybody been dismissed?
Ms. McCarthy. No, sir.
Chairman Chaffetz. When the EPA Region 5 administrator
there, Susan Hedman, the day you finally did take decisive
action, when you were questioned about that, you said that her
act of stepping down was courageous.
Ms. McCarthy. I did.
Chairman Chaffetz. I am going to ask you again. Did the EPA
do anything wrong?
Ms. McCarthy. The EPA worked very hard. Let me make one
statement ----
Chairman Chaffetz. Okay. No.
Ms. McCarthy. Let me make one statement.
Chairman Chaffetz. No, no, no. Because I have another
question for you. No, hold on.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay.
Chairman Chaffetz. Did the--Marc Edwards has testified here
twice. He doesn't have a dog in this fight other than he wants
good quality health for people, and he wants good, clean water.
And he happens to know the science behind the water.
On those two hearings, did Mr. Edwards say anything that
you think was wrong or maybe, you know--or inaccurate? Do you
think Mr. Edwards said anything that was inaccurate or wrong in
those two testimonies?
Ms. McCarthy. I think he was not at all informed about what
EPA did. I think he knows nothing about the law, which he
readily admits.
Chairman Chaffetz. He knows ----
Ms. McCarthy. He doesn't know how we're supposed to work in
the system. He doesn't understand that the problem itself was
the responsibility of the States. Oversight was our
responsibility. We took that seriously, and we conducted it.
Does that mean I don't have regrets? Because I'd really
like to ----
Chairman Chaffetz. Well, that is a whole different
standard. Everybody--that is a cheat. Oh, yeah, we just got
regrets. That is a cheat. That is cheap.
Ms. McCarthy. Well, sir, you have to look at how the law
works, and we did ----
Chairman Chaffetz. You know what? And it failed. You
failed. You said, ``If there is any--anything I could do, if
there was any switch I could pull,'' you had that under the
law, and you didn't do it.
Ms. McCarthy. No, sir. I did not have that under the law.
Chairman Chaffetz. Yes, you did. If there is an imminent
threat ----
Ms. McCarthy. I was given authority ----
Chairman Chaffetz. If there is an imminent threat, you can
pull that switch.
Ms. McCarthy. Only if we are ----
Chairman Chaffetz. Administrator, you are wrong.
Ms. McCarthy. There's two parts to that, sir. You skipped
the second.
Chairman Chaffetz. What is the second part?
Ms. McCarthy. You need to have the information to determine
an imminent substantial threat ----
Chairman Chaffetz. So why do we even need an EPA? If you
can't do that ----
Ms. McCarthy. I'm sorry.
Chairman Chaffetz.--you are in those homes. No, I am asking
the questions.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay.
Chairman Chaffetz. Yes, okay. In February is when you first
arrived on the scene, and it wasn't until January of the next
year that you actually did something. That is the fundamental
problem.
Don't look around like you are mystified. That is what
happened. Miguel Del Toral showed up in February. You didn't
take action. You didn't. And you could have pulled that switch.
Ms. McCarthy. We consistently took action from that point
forward. Consistently.
Chairman Chaffetz. There are a lot of people in this
audience from Flint.
Ms. McCarthy. Sir ----
Chairman Chaffetz. Nobody believes that you took action.
You had those levers there. Marc Edwards from Virginia Tech,
bless his heart ----
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, we ----
Chairman Chaffetz. No, just listen for a second. Had the
opportunity. They have said things like we failed to get EPA to
take lead in the water risk seriously. It is possible--another
quote of his, and this is possible because the EPA has
effectively condoned cheating on the lead and copper rule
monitoring since 2006.
He read your op-ed that you put out that was one of the
most offensive things I could possibly imagine, and he says
about you, EPA Administrator Gina McCarthy, that effectively
absolved EPA of any wrongdoing or any role incurring the Flint
disaster.
If you want to do the courageous thing, like you said that
Susan Hedman did, then you, too, should resign. Nobody is going
to believe that you have the opportunity, you had the presence,
you have the authority, you had the backing of the Federal
Government, and you did not act when you had the chance. And if
you are going to do the courageous thing, you, too, should step
down.
My time is expired.
We will now recognize the gentlewoman from Illinois, Ms.
Duckworth.
Ms. Duckworth. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I think that if the EPA Administrator should do the
courageous thing and resign, then so should the Governor.
You know, as a mom, I have been deeply troubled by the
testimony and revelations that have been raised in this series
of hearings on the water crisis. It is a kind of human
suffering that should not happen anywhere, let alone the
greatest nation on the face of the earth.
The failures at every level of government in this disaster
are alarming. I don't think there is any debate at this point
or any question that it is the Snyder administration's
Department of Environmental Quality that created this crisis in
the first place.
However, as a Member from Illinois and one of the States
that falls under the EPA's Region 5 alongside Michigan, I am
also extremely troubled by how the EPA also failed in its duty
to serve as the last line of defense for the children of Flint.
And while the Flint crisis has rightfully garnered the most
attention lately, I am deeply concerned that communities all
around this country are at similar risk.
In Chicago, we have one of the greatest--we have one of the
better quality water systems in the Nation, but we are also
learning that under the deficiencies in the lead and copper
rules testing protocols, our Department of Water Management is
conducting testing that in high-risk instances, and I quote,
``systematically misses the high lead levels and potential
human exposure.''
Furthermore, a report from the Chicago Tribune found that
since 2003, more than half of the sampling sites tested by the
Chicago Department of Water Management were in homes owned by
department employees and might not be located in high-risk
areas.
So, Administrator McCarthy, when water systems, such as in
Flint or Chicago, elect to use their own employees' homes as
sampling test sites with the employees themselves administering
the test, what safeguards are in place to ensure that the
results are not corrupted or skewed?
Ms. McCarthy. Well, there are protocols for this, and one
of the things that--things that I have done is to send a letter
to every Governor and every agency that has primacy on this
across the U.S. to have them post their protocols to explain
what they should do again and to make sure that they're
following that.
We're also looking at how we can strengthen the lead and
copper rule. It clearly needs to be strengthened. And I have
never suggested that the system didn't feel or that EPA isn't
looking at its own place in this.
The Office of the Inspector General is looking and
investigating at my request to make sure that we did everything
we could with the information available to us. But the one
thing I'm just trying to make very clear is we did not create
this problem. The question is did we run in and try to solve it
and work it as quickly as we possibly could, and what else
could we possibly have done?
And I've been trying to look and answer that question. And
anybody who can tell me what else we could have done under the
law, I want to hear it, or even under common sense. Because
this is an area in which I agree with the Governor ----
Ms. Duckworth. Well, let me answer that for you because I
am not on your side in this.
Ms. McCarthy. I realize that.
Ms. Duckworth. I am certainly not on the Governor's side. I
am not on your side. The answer to you is would you not rather
have jumped in too soon, despite the law, to protect the
children of Flint and be hauled into Congress or testify and
explain why you stepped in too quickly to safeguard health, as
opposed to why you didn't act soon enough?
Ms. McCarthy. Congresswoman, we actually didn't understand
or know the full extent of the problem until July, July of last
year.
Ms. Duckworth. But you still did nothing.
Ms. McCarthy. No, that is ----
Ms. Duckworth. Let me make--let us go back to ----
Ms. McCarthy. Congresswoman ----
Ms. Duckworth. No, no, no. I am talking here.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay.
Ms. Duckworth. Let us go back to the law. You said--
earlier, you said that MDEQ was telling you that they were
taking action.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Ms. Duckworth. So you waited for them to take action, and
they slow-rowed everything.
Ms. McCarthy. No. No, Congresswoman, just let me explain.
There's two tests that Congress has given us because Congress
was very clear in the law and also in the Congressional Record
that they wanted us to keep in our lane, and they didn't want
us to step on States' rights.
Ms. Duckworth. Okay.
Ms. McCarthy. Two things. I had to have the data, which I
told you I didn't have until July 21st, and I had to show that
the State wasn't taking appropriate action. On the 21st, they
said they would. I had no justification legally.
So what we tried to do was to get information into the
community's hands. We tried to tell the public there is a
problem here.
Ms. Duckworth. Okay. I only have 30 seconds left. So I am
going to take my 30 seconds. Do we need to change the law? Do
we need to change the statute so that you will step forward
sooner when you have an epic failure on the part of the
Governor of a State, as is in the case of Governor Snyder's
absolute failure in protecting his citizens in Michigan?
Do we need to change the law?
Ms. McCarthy. Well, it's a very--a very high hurdle.
Ms. Duckworth. Because we asked this question of the EPA as
recently as yesterday, and you didn't answer it. And so, tell
me, do you need to change--do we need to change the law so that
you step in sooner?
Ms. McCarthy. It is a very high hurdle, but I will say in
35 or 36 years almost of working in this business, this is the
first time that I have seen a State fail to abide by the
recommendations we're giving them.
Ms. Duckworth. You are not answering my question.
Ms. McCarthy. But most States work collaboratively with us.
We have to strengthen the lead and copper rule for sure.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman's time--the
gentlewoman's time has expired.
Members are advised that there is a vote on the floor. It
is the first of probably two votes. We are going to stand in
recess and reconvene no sooner than 10:45 a.m.
The committee stands in recess.
[Recess.]
Chairman Chaffetz. The committee will come to order. We
will now recognize the gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Hice, for 5
minutes.
Mr. Hice. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Administrator McCarthy, I am sure I am assuming that you
either saw or you were briefed on the hearing that was held by
this committee this past Tuesday. Is that correct?
Ms. McCarthy. I was brief on it, yes, sir.
Mr. Hice. Okay. Then I am sure you are aware that Susan
Hedman, of course, former head of Region 5, testified under
oath that she acted immediately upon the findings regarding the
present high level of lead in the water.
However, in the same hearing, Dr. Edwards, whom you just
referred to moments ago as both an expert and a hero in this
whole matter, he repeatedly, time and again, refuted her
testimony and thereby, obviously, the entire region's actions
to this thing. And so let me start right here.
Do you believe that Susan Hedman provided this committee
with false testimony on Tuesday?
Ms. McCarthy. To the best of my knowledge, no, she did not.
Mr. Hice. Okay. Governor, let me ask you the same question.
How do you feel about the testimony from Ms. Hedman?
Governor Snyder. Um ----
Mr. Hice. In regard to the EPA acting immediately upon
getting information?
Governor Snyder. Congressman, I appreciate--oh, I'm sorry.
Congressman, I appreciate your question. That's why I had that
moment where I cited three emails in particular that were EPA
emails to the DEQ, and it was talking about their partnership
to work these issues, and no flag was going up.
And I heard this. I'm sorry. For a moment, I heard this
entire discussion about the law and this issue about saying you
couldn't do things or couldn't do this or that because of the
law. I have a really simple question. Why didn't Susan Hedman
just call Dan Wyant?
Why didn't Administrator McCarthy just get on the phone and
call me? This is now technical compliance again. This is that
culture that got us in this mess to start with. Where is common
sense?
Mr. Hice. All right. Let me continue on. Thank you for your
answer.
Ms. McCarthy, so is it your testimony then today under oath
that you believe that Susan Hedman and Region 5 did act
immediately and do everything they could upon hearing the
information?
Ms. McCarthy. They did, and they sought additional
information. They did reach out. They consistently, from April
on, when they found out there was no corrosion control, they
consistently ----
Mr. Hice. All right. We have conflicting info on that. But
that is your testimony under oath. Let me ask you this.
Ms. McCarthy. Mr. Hice, I'd just like everybody to look at
the entire email record and not just a few.
Mr. Hice. We are. Speaking of emails, in September of last
year, you were praising Susan Hedman and other EPA officials
for their work on the Flint water crisis. Do you believe that
that praise of Ms. Hedman was warranted?
Ms. McCarthy. I do.
Mr. Hice. Okay. I have here two letters, one written to--
well, written from, in fact, Mr. Kildee, written to you in
September, and it was asking you, begging you, please get
involved in this situation. Are you familiar with that letter?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes, sir.
Mr. Hice. Okay. You did not respond to that letter. Susan
Hedman responded, I am assuming on your behalf.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Hice. Did you authorize her to do so?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes, I did.
Mr. Hice. Okay. Her response basically just fluffed off the
entire thing, and by the way, Mr. Chairman, I would like both
of these letters to be submitted for the record.
Chairman Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Hice. And all of this is taking place in September at a
time when you praising--did you at the same time praise Del
Toral?
Ms. McCarthy. I actually did not know Miguel Del Toral at
that point in time.
Mr. Hice. So you were not aware of the report or any--in
September?
Ms. McCarthy. I was aware of the report. I did not know him
in particular.
Mr. Hice. Okay. But you were aware of what he had brought
forth, and you have referred to him as a hero ----
Ms. McCarthy. And my email to Susan was her whole team.
Mr. Hice.--but you were not praising him, but you were
praising Susan Hedman at the time?
Ms. McCarthy. Well, if you read it, it's to her and her
team, and he was a vital member of that team.
Mr. Hice. So are you aware of any retaliation against Del
Toral?
Ms. McCarthy. No, I'm not, sir.
Mr. Hice. So, and yet we have testimony or we have records
that reflect that he certainly was retaliated against and was
fearful of greater retaliation. But you are saying you have no
knowledge of that whatsoever?
Ms. McCarthy. I do not believe that he was retaliated
against. I have no information that indicates that he was.
Mr. Hice. Okay. Mr. Chairman, I will cede with further
questioning. My time has expired. But thank you, and I will
submit these.
Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
We will now recognize the gentlewoman from Illinois, Ms.
Kelly, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank the witnesses for being here.
Governor, I just had a question. Are there any arrangements
being made for the people of Flint to get their money back for
paying for water that obviously is damaging?
Governor Snyder. Yes, Congresswoman. That process has
already been set up. The appropriation has been made.
Ms. Kelly. Okay.
Governor Snyder. We made a calculation. And again, people
shouldn't have to pay for that water in terms of ----
Ms. Kelly. I agree.
Governor Snyder. So what we did is we did an analysis to
show--there is a water and sewer bill. The sewer piece is a
separate issue, but with respect to the water bill, we tried to
do a calculation and we roughly said about half the water was
for drinking, cooking, those kind of activities. The rest is
for flushing your toilet, doing your laundry.
We rounded up to 65 percent. We went back in the records to
April of 2014 through the period, and again, we--for our math,
we used the end of April 2016. I'm not saying it will be done
by then, and we'll add months if we need to. We did a
calculation, and 65 percent of the water portion of the water
and sewer bill amounted to $30 million, roughly.
I went and asked for a supplemental appropriation. The
legislators were very supportive. We've got that in place. Now
we're working with the city, which actually runs the utility,
to have some software programming done so we can apply it as a
credit on their bill.
And the way it should work is as we get this set up ----
Ms. Kelly. Okay. I just wanted to know that.
Governor Snyder. I'm sorry. Just we are working hard to get
this taken care of.
Ms. Kelly. As the chair of the Health Braintrust for the
Congressional Black Caucus, you know, part of my mission is to
look out for healthcare for underserved communities, low-income
communities, and communities of color. And I have to tell you
this really reeks of environmental discrimination, in my
opinion.
Administrator McCarthy ----
Governor Snyder. Could I ----
Ms. Kelly.--I want to ask about the State's repeated
refusal to implement corrosion control, which the Governor's
own task force concluded led to the mass poisoning of Flint
residents. Let us walk through this quickly.
Governor Snyder's administration made the switch to the
Flint River in April 2014. They initially told the EPA they had
corrosion control in place. Is that right?
Ms. McCarthy. That's correct.
Ms. Kelly. Okay. But that was wrong. They didn't have it.
According to the Governor's own task force, they told the city
it was ``not necessary.'' EPA discovered this, and on April 24,
2015, EPA official Miguel Del Toral sent an email to Governor
Snyder's administration expressing concern that they had not
started implementing corrosion control.
He wrote, and I quote, ``As far as treatment determination,
there are only two scenarios for a large system to be deemed to
have optimized corrosion control without treatment, and Flint
does not appear to meet either.'' Is that correct?
Ms. McCarthy. That is correct.
Ms. Kelly. Okay. Here is where I get really concerned. Even
though the EPA told Governor Snyder's administration to
implement corrosion control, they didn't do it. Months went by
with no action by the State.
Finally, on August 17, 2015, the Michigan Department of
Environmental Quality told Flint, and I quote, ``The city must
now recommend a treatment to fully optimize corrosion control
treatment within 6 months.''
So the State's response didn't happen until August. That
was 4 months after the EPA warned Governor Snyder's
administration that they had to do something. Is that right?
Ms. McCarthy. That's correct.
Ms. Kelly. Also, to me, 6 months seems ridiculously long
time to wait when lead has been leaching from the pipes for
over a year, and people throughout Flint were getting poisoned.
Do you agree?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes, I do.
Ms. Kelly. That 6 months is way too long to wait. As it
turns out, the State never implemented corrosion control prior
to the switch back to the Detroit River in October. And in
December, the Governor's own task force, as we have heard,
concluded that the actions of Governor Snyder's administration,
and I quote, ``led directly to the contamination of the Flint
water system.''
Do you agree with that finding?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Ms. Kelly. I know people have asked you if you have any
regrets or if you wish EPA had done anything differently. In
this case, it seems like Governor Snyder and his administration
were fighting you at every turn. They were completely unable to
handle the crisis.
Looking back, do you regret that you didn't recognize the
utter dysfunction in the State sooner so you could step in and
take away control from Governor Snyder and his administration?
Ms. McCarthy. I think there were dots that we could have
connected. I think we spent way too long trusting the State
that they were doing the right thing. We begged to provide them
technical assistance beginning in March. We begged them
beginning in April to do corrosion control.
We begged them at the city level and the State level with
personal communications, as well as professional.
Ms. Kelly. Because you are hearing it today and I have
heard that, you know, accusations that EPA was too slow in
responding to the Flint crisis. I agree that EPA should have
acted more quickly to rescue the people of Flint from this
mismanagement of the Governor and his administration, but it is
the State that has the primary authority to enforce the Safe
Drinking Water Act. Correct?
Ms. McCarthy. That's correct. And the hurdle to have done
that, we didn't have the data until July 21st to tell us the
scope of the problem, and we didn't have an ability then
because they kept saying they were going to fix it. That's the
way the law requires us to act.
Ms. Kelly. Thank you. And I also feel it is very ironic
that Michigan's slogan was ``Pure Michigan'' because that was
not the case.
Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman yields back.
Now recognize the gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Palmer, for 5
minutes. Mr. Palmer is over here.
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I need my notebook.
Ms. McCarthy. Oh, I'm sorry. Thank you. Couldn't find him.
Mr. Palmer. Mr. Chairman, I just got my notebook back. May
I yield and come back later?
Chairman Chaffetz. Yes. Let us actually recognize the
gentleman from Arizona.
Mr. Gosar. Thank you, Chairman.
I think Mr. Meadows is first. Okay. Well, Ms. McCarthy, how
serious do you consider lead poisoning of humans, especially
children?
Ms. McCarthy. It's one of the most serious things that we
face, sir.
Mr. Gosar. Wow. Okay. So let us go back because in July of
2015, Flint Mayor Dayne Walling emailed EPA Region 5
administrator Susan Hedman about a leaked internal memo that
was sent by EPA employee Miguel Del Toral to a Flint resident.
The memo revealed that Flint's water tested high for lead, and
Del Toral recommended that the EPA intervene.
Administrator Hedman replied that the memo should not have
been leaked, called it a ``preliminary draft report,'' and did
nothing to address the serious threat that lead had created for
the citizens of Flint.
When you were made aware of these communications between
Ms. Hedman and Mayor Walling, did you ask Ms. Hedman to resign?
Ms. McCarthy. I do not believe that she indicated that any
memo was leaked. It was actually sent out ----
Mr. Gosar. No, no. This is factual. So I mean ----
Ms. McCarthy. I'm trying to just get the facts ----
Mr. Gosar. The facts are here. So, I mean, knowing this,
did you ask her to resign?
Ms. McCarthy. No, sir ----
Mr. Gosar. I mean, so why not fire her?
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, her concern ----
Mr. Gosar. I mean, you know the seriousness of this issue,
and yet you still don't do that. In fact, I am going to quote
you. You praised her when she resigned.
Ms. McCarthy. She was not criticizing ----
Mr. Gosar. I mean, that is ----
Ms. McCarthy. She was not criticizing Miguel's report. She
was indicating that it was interim. There was more data to be
done, and she was giving a heads-up because she knew that it
had gone public because Miguel actually ----
Mr. Gosar. Oh, okay. So you know about the seriousness of
the lead poisoning, and yet this is the action you take?
Ms. McCarthy. This ----
Mr. Gosar. Once again, I want to step you back. You made
another comment here earlier that is insulting to us. Congress
is specific on this about States' rights and not stepping on
them. I want you to go back and start looking at your edit in
regards to waters of the U.S. Let us keep going.
Is that a serious response really in regards to ----
Ms. McCarthy. What?
Mr. Gosar.--your response to Ms. Hedman. Is that seriously
a response for somebody who understands the complexity and
seriousness of lead poisoning? That is an appropriate response?
Ms. McCarthy. She did nothing to discredit ----
Mr. Gosar. That is my point. She did nothing. The point is
you know better. She knows better. All we--this is not my first
rodeo with you. Over and over again we have gone it. Remember
Southwest Colorado and an ineptitude that you actually had
there, too. There is a responsibility.
I look at the gentleman next to you as taking
responsibility. I am looking at somebody else. I want to see
responsibility, too, and the American people demand it. I mean,
all I seen it, I have seen the chairman--over and over again,
you still don't get it. Member after Member, you still don't
get it.
You have bred a culture at EPA that is built of fraud,
denial, incompetence, and bureaucratic nepotism. That is what
you have done.
Ms. McCarthy. Well, sir, I'm not trying to shift
responsibility or blame. I'm just trying to get facts on the
table.
Mr. Gosar. Yes, you are. This whole hearing that is all you
have done is you have never taken accountability for any of the
problems at the EPA. It is could we have done something better?
Do you admit wrong? Maybe we could have done something a little
bit faster. The timelines are very full and very factual.
So let me ask you another question. I want to go back to
another thing. The committee has made multiple requests for
EPA's documents relating to Flint. When do you expect those
requests to be fully complied with?
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, we're working on all of the requests as
fast ----
Mr. Gosar. Give me a date. I mean, you are a professional
at slow-walking and delaying information that is pertinent to
this investigation over and over again. Some of the document
productions have been redacted. Will you provide this committee
with the full, unredacted copies of those documents?
Ms. McCarthy. Well, we released just 30,000 documents, sir.
We'll keep releasing those, and I'm happy to give you a
schedule on that when I can ----
Mr. Gosar. I asked you a--no, no, no. I asked you a
question, specific terms. Are you going to release unredacted
forms of these emails?
Ms. McCarthy. Of course, we'll respond to Congress and
allow you to do your jobs as well.
Mr. Gosar. Well, yes.
Ms. McCarthy. I just can't give you a schedule, sir.
Mr. Gosar. That is the same old--same old crap that we hear
over and over again. And that is not what the President
promised us. He said the most transparent administration,
period. And that includes you.
I mean, I am sick of this. And America should be sick of
this bureaucratic nepotism, and you are the culture of the
problem. I see somebody who is addressing it right here, as
Governor of Michigan. But I don't see anything coming from your
part of this problem. It doesn't condone that.
Not only am I asking you to be fired, if you are not going
to resign, you should be impeached.
I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman yields back.
We now recognize the gentlewoman from Michigan, Mrs.
Lawrence, for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Lawrence. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to say, as a Member of Congress representing a part
of Michigan, this is very personal. It is a sad day for me.
Governor Snyder, you have stated that State officials did
not tell you about these problems. As a matter of fact, in your
statement--you swore an oath--you said it wasn't until October
that you were aware of the problems.
But Governor, despite the huge numbers of news stories that
were reported far and wide, let me show you some of those
headlines. On June 2, 2014, only months after switching to the
Flint water, NBC 25 stated, ``Flint residents avoiding the tap,
drinking bottled water instead.'' On June 30, 2014, NBC 25 read
the headline story, ``Sewage released into the Flint River due
to pump failure.''
It continues. In a little over a month, Detroit Metro Times
ran ``Flint residents concerned over discolored water.'' And it
continues. On September 7, 2014, Michigan Live ran ``Flint
expands boiled water advisory after more positive tests for
total bacteria.''
And then it continues, on January 2, 2015, Michigan Live
reported, ``City warns of potential health risks after Flint
water tests reveal too much bacteria.'' It continues. March
2015, the Detroit News said, ``Flint council votes for Detroit
water, Mayor and EM are opposed.''
Did any of these reports and stories ever get reported to
you? Did you ever observe them? Because according to your
statement under oath, it was not until October that you became
aware.
Governor Snyder. There's a difference in terms of what I
became aware of. I was aware of water problems, and I was
involved in having discussions to address those in terms of the
resources we had currently available to us.
In terms of going back to your list, the color and odor of
this water was not good, and you don't want to see people drink
that if you can help that. But we didn't have all the resources
we needed to do then, and they were working on these issues.
In terms of E. coli, in terms of other issues, we would
continually go through in terms of ----
Mrs. Lawrence. Mr. Snyder?
Governor Snyder.--my administration and actually ask the
experts ----
Mrs. Lawrence. I want to add another, add another article.
The National Journal, which I hold up here.
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Mrs. Lawrence. It says, ``Michigan Governor Snyder conceded
Monday that his administration's handling of the Flint water
crisis is a stain on his legacy,'' and I quote, ``I'm not sure
of the specific dates in terms of saying there are--there is
any lead in the water sometime during 2015.'' Again, they
presented some of the information about having to do with a
second set of tests.
Governor Snyder, we all know that when we are elected to an
office, we take an oath, and we are empowered by the electorate
to hire staff. Do you have regular staff meetings with those
who report to you?
Governor Snyder. I have regular discussions, and I get
briefings from staff meetings.
Mrs. Lawrence. During these briefings, are you saying that
the people you entrusted and you pay a salary with the
taxpayers' money, that they failed to inform you of a health
crisis in your State?
Governor Snyder. I will actually share the document with
you, Congresswoman. This is my briefing of September 28th, '15.
This was after ----
Mrs. Lawrence. Before that time. Before that time.
Governor Snyder. This is the briefing ----
Mrs. Lawrence. All the time these headlines are going, you
did not ----
Governor Snyder. This briefing is still saying ----
Mrs. Lawrence. You did not have any member--when you have
Mr. Muchmore, who is your chief of staff, sir--this is dated
July 22nd--telling other members of your circle, sir, that ``I
really don't think people are getting the benefit of the doubt.
Now they are concerned, and rightfully so, about the lead
studies.''
Sir, this was January the 22nd. The 22nd. And you are
saying under oath that it wasn't until October. It was not
until October.
Governor, you are my Governor. This could have been my
city. And Governor, I just--for the life of me, I cannot
understand that you, as a Governor, who led on the premise of
operating as a business, you are going to operate as a
government, that you met with your staff and they refused to
bring you up to date, refused to bring you in, or you refused
to engage.
This is a sad day in this country, and I am just sad about
this, Governor. I am very sad about this. And accountability,
accountability for those that you held accountable. You said
you fired or they resigned. What does accountability look like
for you?
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman's time has expired, but
the Governor may answer.
Governor Snyder. Congresswoman, this is a sad event.
Mrs. Lawrence. It is so sad.
Governor Snyder. This is a tragedy that never should have
happened, and I understand why the people of Flint, they should
be angry. In terms of looking at this, I kick myself every day,
asking what more questions could I ask, what we could have
done. We had a lot of discussions about water during that
entire period, in line with the headlines you said.
But as we go back, the experts over and over again, we were
told the water was safe. That was wrong, and I didn't--it
wasn't just one department. As it continued on, we got
information not only from the DEQ, but the Department of Health
and Human Services that they didn't see elevated levels in
blood. That was wrong.
Dr. Mona spoke up. So we had cases where it took outside
experts. That's tragic. We failed at doing what should have
happened in terms of career bureaucrats that were experts,
``experts,'' that to be open with you, I get so mad that I
never should have believed them.
And it ultimately came down to finally saying after those
reports came out in September from Dr. Mona Attisha Hanna and
from Professor Edwards, I said we have to have a call. That
call was on September 28th. I'm happy to have this in the
record. It's tragic to have it in the record.
It's to say here's my briefing from the night before, and
it's information from both those departments dismissing people,
not talking about the real issue. And when we got on that call,
no, that was enough. But it was later than it should have been.
I wish it would have been far earlier.
So the issue was, is I took immediate action. DEQ started
talking about there could really be a lead problem. We had to
confirm the data on the blood level test. They came back and
said Dr. Mona's work was correct.
And then we ramped into action in terms of filters,
opportunities to do things, and that still wasn't enough. Every
day I get up, and I say what we can do ----
Mrs. Lawrence. There is a culture ----
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman's--the gentlewoman's --
--
Mrs. Lawrence.--in the State government that refused to
give you information.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman will suspend.
Mrs. Lawrence. And we have to stop that.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman will suspend. We have
been going--I appreciate the emotion and the connection to
Michigan, but the gentlewoman's time has expired.
We have dealt with this ----
Mrs. Lawrence. And I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman yields back.
Governor, did you finish that question, or can we go to--
yes, okay. We will go now to Mr. Palmer of Alabama for 5
minutes.
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to follow up on some questions that have been asked
and a point that was made. And you were asked, Governor Snyder,
how did this escape your attention? And I just want to point
out that your executive responsibilities include fiscal
management and administrative oversight over multiple agencies.
I think there are 18 agencies in Michigan.
Among those are education, Medicaid, public safety, health
and human services, that sort of thing. This is in no way
excusing you from the failure to protect the people of Flint,
Michigan. But what I want to ask and I want to know, Ms.
McCarthy, you have one agency, one agency, tasked with
protecting the public in terms of environmental issues. How did
this escape your attention?
Ms. McCarthy. The issue was called to my attention on
September 3rd. Prior to that, it was called to Susan Hedman's
attention, let's see, in late June. And Susan took action.
Prior to that, the agency was directly involved.
I don't want anyone to think that January of this year was
the beginning of our involvement. We actually heard from people
back when the switch was made, and we relied too heavily ----
Mr. Palmer. Ma'am? Ma'am?
Ms. McCarthy.--on the judgment of MDEQ and the fact that
they were acting as a partner with other States, and we
shouldn't ----
Mr. Palmer. Ma'am, I just want to point out, though, that
you were--you sent an email February 26th. Actually, it is 2
days before Mr. Snyder made his call to take immediate action.
And it appears he took immediate action. And you wrote to--and
said this, that these Hedman and Grevatt emails ``raised my
level of concern,'' and then you suggested that they take
options to intervene. But it wasn't until January 21st that you
issued an order demanding action.
Ms. McCarthy. There is different levels of engagement and
intervention. This agency aggressively intervened from day one.
Mr. Palmer. That is not--that is not the information that
we have gotten. That is not what we are hearing from other
folks.
Ms. McCarthy. I appreciate, sir, that. But that is a feel-
safe that is a very high hurdle for the agency to take. We did
take that when we thought that all of the other steps weren't
working, and we took the step that was available to us in
January. But it wasn't as if we didn't offer or intervene or
provide advice in a way that the statute directs us to do.
Mr. Palmer. But there wasn't a sense of urgency here.
Ms. McCarthy. Oh, there was a sense of greater ----
Mr. Palmer. You had--you had a paper. Mr. Mica brought that
up. You had a research document.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Palmer. A report from Mr. Del Toral.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Palmer. And you deny that he was treated like a
whistleblower, and we believe that happened. We have also seen
emails from EPA officials to EPA officials on their personal
email, by the way, which apparently that is okay at the EPA.
You use your personal email and texting.
And it also went to DEQ, Governor Snyder, saying that the
EPA was going to provide cover so that they could literally say
they didn't get the report. We have got the email. So it
appears to me that not only did you not take action, there was
a cover-up going on that involved both the State of Michigan
and the EPA.
But I think, fundamentally, the problem is with the EPA and
not taking adequate action on revising the lead and copper
rule. You guys have a history of covering up. You covered up
the toxic release in Georgia. You tried to cover up the toxic
release, your responsibility of the toxic release in Colorado.
There is a pattern here.
And I just, for the life of me, cannot understand why the
Federal Government has the public trust to protect the people
of this country and we fail time and time and time again. And
again, the State of Michigan is culpable in this, and I
appreciate the fact that you have taken responsibility. But
there is a whole lot more here, and I am going to ask one
question. This is a yes or no. So don't filibuster the answer.
If Susan Hedman had not resigned, would you have fired her?
That is a yes or no, Ms. McCarthy.
Ms. McCarthy. I didn't need to face that answer.
Mr. Palmer. No, no. It is a yes or no.
Ms. McCarthy. That is the best answer I can give you.
Mr. Palmer. That is not a good answer.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay.
Mr. Palmer. Would you have fired her? Can you not hold
anyone responsible for these actions? Are you incapable of
that?
Ms. McCarthy. I actually will, but the failures that have
been identified ----
Mr. Palmer. When?
Ms. McCarthy. The failures so far that I understand were a
failure on our part because the region actually trusted the
State.
Mr. Palmer. You are filibustering.
Ms. McCarthy. Instead, we talked too long.
Mr. Palmer. Governor Snyder, I have got one last question
for you. Michigan has a $600 million surplus and over $380
million emergency fund. Do you have the resources to fix this
problem?
Governor Snyder. We're devoting $232 million is the
appropriation I'm asking for for Flint. There is a huge number
of actions. We've already gotten $67 million of that approved
through our legislature. I'm putting for--I'm asking for $165
million to go in a statewide infrastructure fund to deal with
not only Flint, but other communities as a catalyst to start
this discussion.
So we've made a huge commitment, and I'm on the ground
there, taking actions with a great team of people because they
deserve a fix. And I appreciate this committee doing hearings
on why. Be open with you. My heart and focus is what can I do
every day to make Flint a better place to help make up for this
tragedy?
Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman's time has expired.
We will now recognize the gentlewoman from New Jersey, Mrs.
Watson Coleman, for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
One quick statement to Ms. McCarthy. We are finding out
that even in the State of New Jersey, we have issues where high
lead content exists, and children are being exposed. I don't
know what you are doing, but I hope that when I call back to
New Jersey, you all are doing something there.
Ms. McCarthy. We sure are.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. Thank you.
Governor, how long have you worked with your chief of
staff? How long has he been your chief of staff?
Governor Snyder. I have a relatively new chief of staff.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. Well, the chief of staff that was in
the position when all of this occurred, how long had you worked
with that chief of staff?
Governor Snyder. He had joined me when I took office in
January of 2011.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. 2011. And before that, did you have
any relationship with this chief of staff?
Governor Snyder. No.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. And do you know the first time this
chief of staff had any knowledge of serious water problems in
Flint, Michigan? The first time he knew?
Governor Snyder. I can't answer that question. I don't know
a specific date.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. Do you rely upon your chiefs of staff
like most of us rely upon ours, almost with our lives, to give
us heads-up and to make sure that nothing confronts us that
would embarrass us or put us in a bad position? Did you have
that kind of relationship with your chief of staff?
Governor Snyder. I view chiefs of staff as critical people
that are part of the team for good, bad, whatever. But they're
a key part of the team.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. So would you really have us believe
that your chief of staff never pulled your coattail in
conversation in your office, on the phone, or whatever about
what was happening in Flint, Michigan, and the complaints that
were arising from both the residents, from other officials, as
well as what was being reported in the media?
Governor Snyder. Yes, Congresswoman, as I said before, we
actually had discussions on water issues in Flint. In terms of
going through issues on topics, none of these issues dealt with
the lead issue until much later in the process because our
experts continually said there was not a problem.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. But even if you weren't dealing with
the lead issue, did you really deal with any other issue that
presented a health condition to the people who were drinking
that nasty water?
Governor Snyder. Yes. There was one concern--and there was
multiple concerns. The one that rose that actually was a major
issue was TTHM, trihalomethanes, in particular.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. I know what it is.
Governor Snyder. So we had to address that issue, and we
tried--we worked to get relief to the City of Flint.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. I see that there is a lot of
discussion to take place, but I don't see that a lot of work
was done because I don't see that a lot of accomplishment took
place.
Let me go to something else. You campaigned on reinventing
government, and you said the government should be run like a
business. Your administration and the emergency managers you
appointed to control the City of Flint gambled with the health
and welfare of the people in your city in order to save money.
And those people, through no fault of their own, are now paying
that price.
Governor, I want to know, I want to know, did that
emergency management system fail under your leadership in this
instance?
Governor Snyder. In this instance, it would be much to the
case that I have is you wish they would have asked more
questions. They would have pushed harder ----
Mrs. Watson Coleman. So is that a yes or a no?
Governor Snyder. In this particular case with respect to
the water issue, that would be a fair conclusion.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. It would seem to me that is a very
important issue, since it negatively impacts the health and
well-being of children perhaps even into their adult lives,
impacting their ability to learn and to be successful in life.
Your own former adviser, Dennis Schornack, learned the
lesson because he said, ``Government is not a business, and it
cannot run like one. The people of Flint got stuck on the
losing end of decisions driven by spreadsheets of water quality
and public health.''
Were you wrong to run that government like a business?
Governor Snyder. In terms of running it like a business, a
government is not a business.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. It isn't. So why would you say it
should be run like one?
Governor Snyder. In terms of accountability and
measurements and delivering real results to people and in terms
of not just Flint, but the State of Michigan, I'm very proud.
We did things as Healthy Michigan, bringing Medicaid expansion
to citizens, bringing Healthy Kids Dental to help kids with
dental care.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. You know what? You know, you can just
go right on and just talk about all the things you want to talk
about. I am going to ask the questions I want to ask.
When the elected leaders of Flint wanted to switch back to
safe water drinking from the Detroit system, your handpicked
emergency manager overruled them, saying, ``It would be
incomprehensible.'' Do you agree that it would have been
incomprehensible, or do you agree that that was a mistake?
Governor Snyder. In retrospect, you wish it would have been
a change back. The challenge would have been funding the cost.
It would have resulted in a water ----
Mrs. Watson Coleman. Well, let us talk about ----
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. Let us talk about the cost. You had
the money. You amassed a budget surplus. So why wouldn't you
think that it was worthy to apply those resources in this
situation?
Governor Snyder. I'm sure you're quite familiar, being in
Congress, that the chief executive, the Governor or the
President, doesn't simply spend money. We need authorization
from the legislature. I had no authority to do that.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. Did you go to the legislature and ask
for the authority at that time?
Governor Snyder. We went--we went and got $2 million, the
maximum grant we could, in terms of helping with water
infrastructure in Flint.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentle--the gentle ----
Mrs. Watson Coleman. You know--you know ----
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Because
the only question, the only statement I would like to make is
that ----
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman's time ----
Mrs. Watson Coleman.--it seems to me that the buck stops --
--
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman will suspend.
Mrs. Watson Coleman.--there, and Mr. Snyder ----
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman will suspend.
Mrs. Watson Coleman. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
We will now recognize the gentleman from North Carolina,
Mr. Meadows, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Meadows. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
To both of you, I am troubled today because of the
testimony we had just a couple of days ago, which would
indicate that even though there is enough blame to go around,
there were a number of times where people acted like it wasn't
their fault.
Governor, your emergency management testimony from the
witness here was troubling because he acted like, ``Well, I
didn't know.'' And so, Governor, do you believe that there were
people who made mistakes within your agency at multiple levels
in terms of addressing the health and welfare of the people of
Flint?
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Mr. Meadows. Okay. Thank you.
Ms. McCarthy, I am going to ask you the same question
because the witness that resigned indicated that there was
nothing that they could have done differently, and there was no
fault on her part or the part of the EPA as it related to this
unbelievable, horrific event.
So do you believe that the EPA is partially at fault?
Ms. McCarthy. I believe that we could have taken different
action and been more aggressive, yes.
Mr. Meadows. That is not the question. Are you partially at
fault, yes or no?
Ms. McCarthy. I'm not playing a blame-shifting game, sir.
It would be very easy for me ----
Mr. Meadows. So you do agree that you are partially at
fault.
Ms. McCarthy.--to do that, but I won't. We--the system
failed. We were part of that system.
Mr. Meadows. All right. Let me go--both of them indicated
that the rules with regards to copper and lead are somewhat
ambiguous, that they needed a little bit more clarity. We have
heard that. Would you agree with that, Governor?
Governor Snyder. I would go much farther than that. It's a
dumb and dangerous rule.
Mr. Meadows. Okay. All right. Ms. McCarthy, would you agree
that the rules, the current rules as they are, are ambiguous,
need more clarification?
Ms. McCarthy. They definitely need clarification. They need
to be strengthened, and we're taking a look at that. But
they're fairly clear about what should be done in this
situation.
Mr. Meadows. Okay. So let me stop you there because if you
are taking a look at it, here is my concern. Because when
anybody says there is nothing at fault, we started doing some
research. Clean water safety, Clean Water Drinking Safety Act
of 1991 required rules to be updated every 6 years.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Meadows. Do you know how many times it has been updated
fully since 1991?
Ms. McCarthy. I don't know how many ----
Mr. Meadows. I do. The answer is zero. Zero. In terms of
fully updated, it is zero. It was modified slightly in 2007.
And so here we have the safe drinking water standards that
needed to be updated, and yet the EPA did nothing about it.
Now I could go further to say, well, maybe the EPA didn't
know. But we did a little research on that, too, and to quote,
the GAO in 2006 said, indeed, that you needed to update your
rules. Are you aware that the GAO has a problem with the copper
and lead rules?
Ms. McCarthy. I am aware that they were last updated in
2007 under the prior administration.
Mr. Meadows. Okay.
Ms. McCarthy. That's what I'm aware of.
Mr. Meadows. All right. So let me ask you even further
because I went to your documents, which were actually
regulation documents saying when you were going to update the
rules. And so, in 2010, you said that you were going to have a
proposed rule in 2012 and a final rule in 2013, long before
this problem would have happened if you just had stuck with
your original timeframe. The problem is, is I can go through
multiple papers here, and I can find that you never--you just
kept changing the goalpost in terms of the rules.
And in fact, even as recent as this last fall, you changed
it again to say that not only are you going to do a rule
sometime in the future in 2018, you don't even talk about a
final rule.
Now do you not see a problem with the fact that the law
requires you to do a new rule every 6 years, at least revisit
it, and that you haven't revisited it in 10 years and that you
keep changing the goalpost? Do you not see some fault there?
Ms. McCarthy. Well, the revisions actually started in
earnest in 2012 or 2013 ----
Mr. Meadows. But you said--according to your own document,
you said you were going to have them done in 2013.
Ms. McCarthy. We have--we have a stakeholder group that's
very actively told us that we cannot make tweaks to this. We
have to make some substantive changes, issues that would have
been helpful in this case.
That does take more time than making small tweaks, and that
is what we're working on now, and I'm glad we know even more
today than we did before. We're going to take a look at it and
get it done.
Mr. Meadows. Okay. Well, let me tell you why I am concerned
with that. In the same time about the small tweaks ----
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Meadows.--the EPA has passed 3,571 rules in that
timeframe while the people of Flint and maybe Washington, D.C.,
are waiting on a final rule. You have the wrong priorities, Ms.
McCarthy.
I yield back.
Ms. McCarthy. If they had--if they had properly implemented
the law as it currently exists, we wouldn't be sitting here
today. As it currently exists, we wouldn't be sitting here
today.
Chairman Chaffetz. But you are in charge. You are the
Administrator.
Ms. McCarthy. Actually, the State is in charge ----
Chairman Chaffetz. But you are in charge of the lead and
copper rule.
Ms. McCarthy.--to fully implement or enforce the rule. Sir?
Chairman Chaffetz. You are in charge of the lead--you think
the Governor is in charge of the lead and copper rule? You are
in charge of the lead and copper rule, writing the rule.
Ms. McCarthy. I'm telling you that we didn't need any
change to the rule in order to have prevented this problem from
happening. It was the way in which MDEQ actually interpreted it
and implemented it that was the problem.
MDEQ has said it. The Governor's task force has said it.
Chairman Chaffetz. You are wrong. We are going to come
back.
Ms. McCarthy. The State auditor ----
Chairman Chaffetz. We are going to come back to this. Let
us recognize the gentleman from Pennsylvania, Mr. Boyle, for 5
minutes.
Mr. Boyle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Governor Snyder, over the past 2 years, you and the
individuals you handpicked to carry out your administration's
actions missed so many opportunities along the way to protect
the people of Flint. When the water changed color to brown and
orange, your administration said the water was safe.
When people reported rashes, hair loss, odor, and even
sewage, your administration said the water was safe. When E.
coli and fecal bacteria were found in the water and boil water
alerts were distributed, your administration said the water was
safe.
When a harmful byproduct of disinfection in the water began
to spike after the switch, your administration said the water
was safe. When Legionnaire's disease began to infect and later
kill numerous citizens, your administration said the water was
safe.
Governor, don't you have a moral responsibility to resign?
Governor Snyder. My commitment is to fix the problem. This
is a case where we should have demanded more answers. I said
that in my opening statement. And again ----
Mr. Boyle. And don't you have a moral responsibility, as
the Governor of an administration that failed and poisoned its
own people, don't you have the moral responsibility to resign?
Governor Snyder. What I would say is, is when you have
experts that you relied on, they failed. They worked for me. So
you have a responsibility for that. I kick myself every day,
wishing I would have demanded more answers and asked more
questions.
But put it in context, when something bad happens--and this
is a terrible tragedy, this has been the humbling experience of
my life, is ----
Mr. Boyle. I believe for the citizens of Flint, it has been
far worse than just a humbling experience.
Governor Snyder. I believe the right answer is to--to walk
away from it, I want a commitment--I'm making a commitment to
solve this problem because ----
Mr. Boyle. Let me ----
Governor Snyder.--the Flint people deserve better.
Mr. Boyle. Let me--I think that answer speaks for itself. I
think that, ultimately, when people are at the head of a
government, they have to take responsibility for their
administration's failures.
But, Ms. McCarthy, I want to switch to you because while
this has been possibly the largest and most glaring failure of
government since Hurricane Katrina, I am concerned about the
extent to which this could be a canary in a coal mine. So let
me ask you specifically about my own home State of
Pennsylvania.
In 2014, the Pennsylvania Department of Health identified
18 cities in my State that have higher lead exposure than Flint
does. So what is the EPA doing now, outside of Flint, to ensure
that other localities don't end up in exactly the same
situation?
Ms. McCarthy. Well, thank you for raising that because
that's one of the issues that has a spotlight on it. We should
try to make something good happen of this.
We--actually, I have written to every Governor and to every
primacy agency, the ones that are responsible for implementing
and enforcing the Safe Drinking Water Act, to ask them to look
at all their protocols, to look at what their guidance is, to
explain to them what we know they should be doing, to actually
post their protocols, to relook and confirm to us that they're
implementing the law as it has been intended.
We even went further to suggest that every test they take
should be posted on the Web. They should post every lead line
on the Web.
I know that people have lost faith in government as a
result of this. The best way we can help them--in us--is to
have everything be so transparent that individuals can hold us
accountable.
One of the challenges we faced here, Congressman, is we
just couldn't get a straight answer anywhere. People don't
deserve that out of their government. I will take
responsibility for not pushing hard enough, but I will not take
responsibility for causing this problem. It was not EPA at the
helm when this happened.
Mr. Boyle. Thank you, and I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
We will now recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin, Mr.
Grothman, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Grothman. Great. I know it is difficult to get
government to work for a variety of reasons. That is why some
of us like less government because it is very hard to get it to
work.
I guess my first question is for Governor Snyder. Like
every Governor, you inherit, in your case, you said, what, over
40,000 employees. You didn't pick those employees. Frequently,
because of the political clout, even if you have an employee
over a period of time who is lazy or not doing their job, it is
difficult to get rid of those employees.
You have gotten rid of several of them. I maybe missed a
couple of the comments here. But in general, as you go through
the five or six employees who you feel were most callous and
uncaring, were they your political appointees, or were they
civil servants who you inherited?
Governor Snyder. Now with respect to, again, I use the
words in quotes, Congressman, the ``experts'' that were in the
water safety division, I believe on average, you'll find their
experience was somewhere between 20, 20-some years to 30 years
of government experience.
Mr. Grothman. So, you know, you can be an expert, but if
you don't care, doesn't matter how expert you are or how many
classes you have taken in school. So in other words, largely,
the people that you got rid of were people that had been around
there for 20 years, civil service protection, that sort of
thing?
Governor Snyder. Yes, the head of the water division that
was terminated had 28 years' experience.
Mr. Grothman. I know it is very difficult for a Governor to
come in there and clean house with civil servants, and I am
sorry it had to be such a tragedy to bring their incompetence
to light.
Question for Gina McCarthy. It seems to me, before this
hearing, the most callous Government employee we have had
before is Susan Hedman. We found out yesterday that she
actually had been reached out and grabbed by your predecessor,
Secretary Jackson. I wish Secretary Jackson would be here to
explain what in the world she was doing hiring Susan Hedman.
But as you go through the people in your agency that have
made huge mistakes--I don't see how you can deny they have made
huge mistakes--could you rattle off the people who you feel are
most responsible for this mess?
Del Toral, he wasn't a political appointee. He was an
example of a good civil servant, who was around there, you
know, fighting to get the answers out here, as far as I can
see, when Susan Hedman was trying to keep them in the dark. But
would you rattle off the people you feel are most at fault in
EPA?
Ms. McCarthy. No, sir. I think that that would be one of
the easiest things I could do is to find a couple of career
bureaucrats to pin the problem on.
Mr. Grothman. I don't think it is career bureaucrats.
Ms. McCarthy. That's not my job, and I'm not going to do
that.
Mr. Grothman. I think it is Susan Hedman. Well, I don't
think it was career bureaucrats. I think it is Susan Hedman.
But go ahead.
Ms. McCarthy. Well, Susan Hedman didn't know about this
issue until late in June. She took immediate action. She
actually worked--was it June or July? I forget. I apologize.
She took immediate action to reach out. She even put a desk
statement out that got picked up in local newspapers about the
lead concerns. We did everything according to the numbers.
And the reason why I am so impressed with Susan is that she
immediately came and resigned because she could have waited to
try to find somebody to blame it on, but instead she wanted
full attention on Flint and the ability for EPA to help resolve
that situation, and she resigned.
Mr. Grothman. Wait, maybe I missed something. When did she
resign?
Ms. McCarthy. She resigned in late January.
Mr. Grothman. That is not immediate.
Ms. McCarthy. Because she was working the issue.
Mr. Grothman. That is like after 6 months.
Ms. McCarthy. I'm sorry, sir. She was working the issue
every day. The question was did we have too much interaction
with the State, trusting individuals who were not giving us the
right information?
Mr. Grothman. Wait a minute.
Ms. McCarthy. But she worked really hard. In fact, it was
Susan who forced our way onto the task force so we could be
helpful in designing a strategy moving forward.
Mr. Grothman. It was ----
Ms. McCarthy. It was Susan who suggested not--to go back to
the Detroit water. It was Susan who suggested that bottled
water would be necessary. So she was taking the steps she
needed to try to resolve the problem.
Mr. Grothman. It would seem to me that if the Del Toral
memo was made public, that would have raised the sense of
crisis, that ----
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, it was made public. It was public the
day he sent it out. The only thing she was reacting to ----
Mr. Grothman. Well, okay ----
Ms. McCarthy.--was the fact that it was ----
Mr. Grothman. Stood with the memo and rather than saying
that the memo was, oh, rather than downplaying the memo,
highlight it.
Ms. McCarthy. Well, sir, if you look at the entire chain of
our emails, you will see that Miguel was the person that
everybody in that region turned to for advice on how to handle
this. He was part of our task force. He was part of the
decisions every step of the way.
We in no way sidelined him. It is actually something that
MDEQ started by saying he was some kind of a rogue employee. It
was Susan Hedman that called MDEQ and said to stop doing that.
That is not the case. He's part of our team and a valuable
member.
Mr. Grothman. I just think it is incredible that after all
these people went through, you can't still identify any people
who did a bad job. I mean, it just is amazing to me.
But, okay, I am done with my time.
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, I have asked the Office of the Inspector
General to give their eyes on it. I can't possibly know
everything that happened.
Do I think the system failed? Yes. Do I think EPA could
have been more aggressive if we knew we weren't getting the
right information? Absolutely.
Even when we figured that out, we talked to the State for
too long. It should have been elevated. I would have loved to
have an opportunity to intervene in a more aggressive way.
Chairman Chaffetz. Well, all right. Mrs. Maloney of New
York is now recognized for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Maloney. Administrator McCarthy, would you please
check on the level of lead in New York City's water and get
back to me? And I am grateful that there are professional
employees working for the health and to protect the health of
the American people, and I want to thank you for the job that
you are doing.
Ms. McCarthy. Thank you.
Mrs. Maloney. The people, people in Flint were drinking
high levels of lead in their water, and Governor Snyder, you
utterly failed in your responsibility to protect them. Earlier,
you testified that we needed action. We needed action by the
EPA. We needed action by the city council.
But even after you found out that there were problems, that
it was on paper in front of you, with your staff, once you
knew, even when you knew, you delayed, and you put people's
lives in danger.
On April 25, 2015, EPA official Miguel Del Toral sent an
email to Pat Cook at MDEQ on the State level, expressing
concerns that no corrosion control was being used in Flint, and
he wrote, and I quote, ``I'm worried. I'm worried that the
whole town may have much higher lead levels than the compliance
results indicated.''
And I'd like his note put in the record, please.
Mrs. Maloney. But Governor Snyder, you didn't add corrosion
control in April. You didn't add it in May. You didn't add it
all summer long, and you didn't add it in October. And even
when you switched back to the Detroit water, you didn't add it
then.
So you never added corrosion control the entire time that
your citizens were drinking out of the Flint River. And isn't
that true, yes or no? Yes or no?
Governor Snyder. In terms of your ----
Mrs. Maloney. Yes or no? Get back to me in writing if you
can't answer a yes or no right now.
Governor Snyder. There should have been corrosion controls
and common sense from day one. They were not there.
Mrs. Maloney. Okay. They were not there, but ----
Governor Snyder. They were there when ----
Mrs. Maloney. Excuse me. Excuse me. I am asking the
questions. I asked for a yes or no. Get back to me in writing,
and I can give you a paper trail that for 6 months, you knew,
and you didn't do anything about it.
And EPA, it was EPA that warned you. It was EPA that warned
the State, and I find that unconscionable. And I am asking you
to warn me if there is any problem in the State of New York.
Please. And I am grateful we have professionals who can do
this, who can act, and they did act.
Now let me turn to another delay. The October 2, 2015, you
unveiled your so-called ``comprehensive action plan'' to
address Flint's water crisis. But you didn't declare a state of
emergency until January 5, 2016. Isn't that right?
When did you--it was January 16th, and that was 3 months
later, and I find that unconscionable. And you absolutely
didn't call the National Guard in until even later, until
January 12th.
And Governor Snyder, on November 13, 2015, the Deputy State
Director of Michigan State Police sent an email to one of your
legal counsels with the subject line, ``Declaration
Questions.'' He wrote, and I quote, ``As you know, the Governor
can declare at any time for any reason a state of emergency.''
That email was sent in November, yet you still waited 2
more months before you declared the emergency. And how can you
explain that to the people of Flint, who are now incredibly
sick?
The truth is, is that you dragged your feet because you
didn't want to take responsibility. In fact, that very same
email from that last November lays out clearly, it states, and
I quote, ``The State will formally own the event if we put a
Governor's declaration in place. This could be viewed as the
State having owned up to how the water issue was caused.''
And Governor Snyder, your people knew in April that you
should be using corrosion control, but you did nothing for 6
months. You dragged your feet in declaring an emergency, based
on political and financial concerns. And say whatever you want,
say whatever you want about being in the dark, about the
warning signs, but even when you did know, even when you did
know, you did nothing.
So your delay sickened an untold number of additional
people. I believe this is a national disgrace and a national
scandal. And I think we all should learn from it.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman yields back. The
gentlewoman's time has expired.
We will now recognize the gentleman from Georgia, Mr.
Carter, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Carter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Ms. McCarthy, I am a freshman. I have been here for 16
months now, and I struggle sometimes with acronyms. Can you
help me out? EPA, what does that P stand for?
Ms. McCarthy. Protection.
Mr. Carter. Protection. Protection?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Carter. I thought that was the case. So just a second
ago, I looked up the definition of ``protection.'' It says, ``A
person or thing that prevents someone or something from
suffering, harm, or injury.'' You would agree with that?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes. Sounds right.
Mr. Carter. Sounds right. So Environmental Protection
Agency.
Ms. McCarthy. Correct.
Mr. Carter. Ms. McCarthy, I am correct when I say that EPA
has the authority to warn the public when there is
contamination in the drinking water that poses immediate threat
to human health. Is that correct?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Carter. Yes. So you are aware of the June 2015 memo
from Miguel Del Toral. You are aware of that, correct, of that
memo?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Carter. Yes. Okay. So Mr. Del Toral, who we have
established, and we established it 2 days ago when Ms. Hedman
was here, he is a drinking water specialist. In fact, he was a
member, a key member of the Region 5 safe drinking water task
force.
Yet when Mr. Del Toral reported the high levels of lead in
Flint's drinking water, the EPA, the Environmental Protection
Agency, they didn't do that. They didn't protect the public.
They didn't warn the public.
Instead, Ms. Hedman, she had a bunch of excuses, none of
them which I believe. But she had a lot of excuses as to why
the EPA, the Environmental Protection Agency, didn't take any
action.
None of them would have prevented, none of them would have
prevented EPA from standing up and saying, ``Hey, don't drink
that water. It has got lead in it. Stop. Don't drink it.''
None of the excuses she had would have prevented EPA from
doing that. But EPA did not do that. They did not protect. They
did not--they did not prevent someone or something from
suffering, harm, or injury.
Mrs. Maloney. Will the gentleman yield?
Mr. Carter. I do not yield. Ms. McCarthy, you had an op-ed
in the Washington Post.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Carter. And you stated that EPA repeatedly and urgently
told the State of Michigan to act with a sense of urgency and
inform the public. Is that correct?
Ms. McCarthy. That's correct.
Mr. Carter. Yet as I understand it, you mean to say that
you repeatedly told the State of Michigan to warn the public
about the toxic levels of lead in Flint's public water, in
their water. Is that correct?
Ms. McCarthy. We repeatedly told them that they had to
begin corrosion control ----
Mr. Carter. You know, a little while ago, you asked--you
said, you know, I wished we could have done something
different.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Carter. Whether it would have been by the law or
through common sense. Would common sense not have told you,
hey, hey, stop drinking the water?
Ms. McCarthy. Not at that point in time.
Mr. Carter. Not at that point in time?
Ms. McCarthy. No. No.
Mr. Carter. At what point in time?
Ms. McCarthy. The challenge was that you're referencing a
report that if you look at the final clearly indicates that it
was most likely a localized issue. I cannot make ----
Mr. Carter. So what Ms. Hedman did, she sought a legal
opinion. She--well, that makes us all feel better. My goodness,
I mean ----
Ms. McCarthy. That's not what she did, sir.
Mr. Carter. She did. She sought a legal opinion on this.
Ms. McCarthy. No, it ----
Mr. Carter. And I know everybody here feels much better
about that because the Environmental Protection Agency, we are
going to make sure we got a legal opinion first before we tell
these people stop drinking that water.
Ms. McCarthy. This report was done after we had been
working with the State to tell them consistently that they had
to start corrosion control. But I cannot, nor could the region,
base the decision ----
Mr. Carter. But corrosion, Ms. McCarthy ----
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Carter. Corrosion control.
Ms. McCarthy. Did I say corrosion control, right?
Mr. Carter. You did.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay.
Mr. Carter. Okay, but that is not what we are concerned
about. Because at this point, we know there is lead in the
water.
Ms. McCarthy. Well, we knew that it was ----
Mr. Carter. But you have got to stop it.
Ms. McCarthy.--a localized area, and we were concerned
about it being ----
Mr. Carter. This didn't come from just some member. This
came from a drinking water specialist.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes, and his advice was heeded.
Mr. Carter. His advice was heeded immediately?
Ms. McCarthy. His--we did everything we have available to
us.
Mr. Carter. Was it heeded immediately? Everything that you
had available to you?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Carter. So you are telling me you got on TV and you
said, ``Don't drink the water. There is lead in the water.
Don't drink it.''
Ms. McCarthy. No. Because the only thing we knew, there was
lead in three in a very localized area. Had I made the
assumption, using a presumption like a precautionary principle
----
Mr. Carter. Ms. McCarthy, I am sorry. I am not with you on
this because, again, Environmental Protection Agency. You are
trying to prevent someone or something from suffering harm or
injury ----
Ms. McCarthy. So we will --- we will look ----
Mr. Carter. The EPA. Why don't we change the acronym? I
mean, come on. Let us just change it to something else. Let us
take prevention out of there.
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, the State did give the State--the law
did give the State primary authority.
Mr. Carter. The law. The law.
Ms. McCarthy. We provided advice and assistance.
Mr. Carter. Now I don't think anybody here cares about the
law.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman's--the gentleman's time
has expired. The gentleman yields back.
Mr. Carter. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Chaffetz. We will now recognize the gentlewoman
from New Mexico, Ms. Lujan Grisham, who is to your far left.
Ms. McCarthy. Thank you.
Ms. Lujan Grisham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And this is a really tough hearing for all of us, right?
And as both sides try to tackle this problem, because our real
issue here is to figure out how we prevent it from happening
ever again and, secondly, what we can do about restoring faith
to the--our constituents who don't believe either of you.
Right? And there is plenty of reason for them not to believe
either of you.
Now, Governor, I worked for three Governors. I was--those
Governors were just as lucky as I was as their appointee. Two
different parties, 17 years, and I will tell you what. I got
plenty of emails and calls from Governors who told me to light
a fire in my department and move quickly to address problems.
So I am having trouble with ``I wasn't really sure.''
And I will tell you, as a Member of Congress, when there
was a veterans wait list, my hospital said, ``We don't have
that.'' I didn't believe them. I was right. I went down there
and got it myself.
When our Social Security office, I was having millions of
complaints--that might be a bit of exaggeration--but thousands.
The Social Security office told me everything was fine. So I
went down there and got in line. It wasn't fine. They were
harming people. All right?
You have an obligation, the both of you. But Governor,
particularly you, because these are constituents in your
control with your cabinet. I was the health secretary. When we
had any alert, we got on it.
You said you were the common sense Governor in your
campaign. When you knew in the fall of 2014 that you had fecal
coliform was detected in the Flint water, there were boiled
water alerts, what caused you with everything else that you saw
in the press, in addition to your own staff, not to have a
common sense approach and just fix it? Because I don't
understand.
Governor Snyder. That issue did get resolved in terms of
the E. coli issue. Again, this is where you look back in
hindsight. Again, I wish we would have asked a lot harder
questions.
Dan Wyant, the head of the department ----
Ms. Lujan Grisham. So what are we going to do with
Governors in your situation? Because if they say later, ``I
wish I had done more. You know what? There were warning signs.
We did a little, but not enough.''
And the same, the same with the Federal Government. What do
we do so that everybody sitting here today is clear that when
there is a warning signal, no matter how small--and here, they
weren't small. They were not small. They were huge.
Then what do we do as policymakers to make sure that my
constituents in my State and all over the country who have
similar issues that are ready to have the same consequences,
that they are going to believe their State officials and their
elected officials and their appointees? Because that is really
what I want to do going forward. How do I do that, sir?
Governor Snyder. In my ``state of the State'' address, I
stood up and said these were failures. We need that urgency. I
demand that people bring me these issues. And in terms of
issues like Flint, getting daily updates ----
Ms. Lujan Grisham. How many staff have been held
accountable? How many retrainings have you had? How many water
tests are you doing? Look, I got a jet fuel problem in my
district. Everybody was working on it.
Well, that isn't enough. I went to the Pentagon. Now they
are actually pulling it out of the water and treating it. I
mean out of the aquifer. Because I am not a jet fuel expert,
but I am pretty sure it shouldn't be in my drinking supply.
So for 15 years, bureaucrats and other leaders just let it
sit there while they studied it. So what exactly, give me a
list of the things that you are doing right now to address
these constituents who have been actually harmed, who could be
harmed, every water system in your State. How much money have
you identified and appropriated to make sure that you are
dealing with it productively?
Governor Snyder. One of the things included in your
exhibits is actually an excerpt from a report that I helped
create, and we track information on Flint on a daily basis that
gets aggregated. It talks about every active water customer. It
talks about how many ----
Ms. Lujan Grisham. So tell me the constituents that you
responded to based on that report.
Governor Snyder. The constituents? We're out to talk to
every person in Flint in terms of getting their water.
Ms. Lujan Grisham. You are talking to them?
Governor Snyder. In terms of a visit to their home ----
Ms. Lujan Grisham. So that is your response to date is to
know who is affected maybe by your report ----
Governor Snyder. No.
Ms. Lujan Grisham.--and then to talk to them?
Governor Snyder. Not maybe. It's to go to their homes to
actually have an opportunity to ask would you like a filter?
Would you like a water test? How can we help support you in
terms of getting water? Again, we haven't hit every home, but
we're actually tracking people in terms of detail.
Ms. Lujan Grisham. So let me ask you this question. I think
that is not--and this is my opinion as someone who does this
kind of work for my whole career, we would just fix the water
system so that it is all safe. But what do you do with someone
like my mom, who has got a cognitive impairment, and you go to
her house, and you ask her? What about that constituent?
Governor Snyder. We ask them to dial 211 or get in contact
so we can help bring water to them.
Ms. Lujan Grisham. I think I have my answer, sir. I don't.
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentlewoman's time has expired.
We will now recognize the gentleman from Tennessee, Mr.
Duncan, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Duncan. Governor Snyder, I think everyone should
respect the apology that you have offered because I believe
that everyone realizes there were mistakes made at every level
here, local--the local level, the State level, the Federal
level. I think, sir, you have accepted far more blame for this
problem than you deserve.
I can tell you that several years ago in another committee,
I chaired the Water Resources and Environment Subcommittee for
6 years, and I traveled all over this country. And I can assure
you that this is a problem with our clean water and waste water
infrastructure that has been building up for many, many years.
Many of the systems in the Northeast and Midwest are 75 or
100 years old, and this is--and where it is especially acute is
in the people have been moving for many years from the high-
tech States to the low-tech States, and they have been moving,
I understand that Flint's population was 193,000 in 1970, and
now it is 99,000. And what has, unfortunately, happened, not
just in Flint, but in many cities, the higher-income people
have been the first ones to move, and it has left these cities
with not enough money to do all the things that they need to
do.
And then I personally have hated to see and have spoken out
for years against the fact that we have spent trillions over
the last 15 years in a failed effort to rebuild the Middle
East, and we haven't done enough for our own country.
But do you realize, sir, that this is a problem, very
longstanding, that was there long before you took office?
Governor Snyder. In terms of we have a number of urban and
actually rural areas that have major challenges, and that's why
I've tried to work hard to improve those places. And again,
that's in short of things getting such as Healthy Michigan to
get healthcare to people, in terms of Healthy Kids Dental, a
program to bring dental care, in terms of Pathways to
Potential, a program where we put caseworkers in the local
schools.
Great Start is a program we have to complement Head Start,
where we're bringing opportunities for preschool to kids all
over Michigan. We created Community Ventures, a program where
we've put over 400 and some people in permanent jobs in Flint
in terms of people that were structurally unemployed because
the Federal programs weren't doing enough.
We're going to add to that, to go to supplement that is we
need programs like Early On to help kids when they're born to
get an assessment of where they're at, to do developmental
childhood. These are all the kind of programs. I appreciate
your comment. Some of these are in response to lead. Many of
these we were doing.
But the thing is, is let's do things here that not only can
help mitigate the lead. We can't take that back, but we can do
every mitigation we can. But it can also help with other issues
so we can create an environment for success in these
communities.
Mr. Duncan. Let me mention one other thing.
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Mr. Duncan. You mentioned the, what was it, $267 million or
some figure?
Governor Snyder. Two hundred thirty-two.
Mr. Duncan. Two hundred thirty-two million. My guess is, is
that there is very few cities anywhere around the size of Flint
that are getting that kind of money or that kind of attention
to their systems, and I am glad that it is happening.
But before my time runs out, I do want to say that I chair
now in this Congress the Clean Water Caucus, and we have been--
everybody has been trying to bend over backwards to place blame
someplace or another. And as I said, there are many people who
should be accepting responsibility for this other than you.
But there are two bills that I have, H.R. 499, which is the
Sustainable Water Infrastructure Investment Act, and H.R. 4468,
the Water Infrastructure Trust Fund Act, to set up a trust fund
for waste water and clean water systems. If people want to do
more than just place blame, but if they want to actually try to
do something to help not just Flint, but cities all over this
country, then I would appreciate if they would talk to me about
these bills.
I yield the balance of my time to the chairman.
Chairman Chaffetz. I think we will go to the next speaker
unless you have something else?
Mr. Duncan. That is all right.
Chairman Chaffetz. Given the time, the gentleman yields
back.
We will recognize the gentleman from Vermont, Mr. Welch.
Mr. Welch. Thank you very much.
I thank the Administrator for being here. I thank you,
Governor, for being here.
You are witnessing the kind of usual scene here in
Washington, where we are trying to figure out who to blame the
most. But we have got a real problem. We have got a real
problem, and Governor, obviously, you have got major
responsibility. And I want to focus on the solution.
I mean, a lot of Governors, I think if they had this
problem, they would be out there digging trenches and replacing
pipes. You have requested from the Michigan legislature a
little over $200 million. Is that correct?
Governor Snyder. Yes, $232 million, $67 million of which
has already been appropriated.
Mr. Welch. All right. So you have got $67 million. Now is
it the intention in using this money, in addition to dealing
with infrastructure issues, to address the health needs of
these children who have been permanently injured as a result of
ingesting lead in the water?
Governor Snyder. Absolutely.
Mr. Welch. Explain to me what the plan is for mental
health. Explain to me what the plan is for cognitive
disabilities. Explain to me what the plan is for daycare.
Explain to me what the plan is to assist these parents whose
kids are in their arms, are not whole like they would be, whose
future is compromised, and these parents, in the midst of
contending with this, have to figure out how to go work when
their kids need them at home.
So my question is if you acknowledge that those are real
issues as a result of ingesting the lead, what in the $238
million is going to address those ongoing needs?
Governor Snyder. Yeah. And Congressman, what I'd say is
it's worse than you stated it, in my view. I appreciate all the
things, but ----
Mr. Welch. Yes, I didn't ask ----
Governor Snyder.--in terms of what we're doing, in terms of
physical, social, and educational well-being, of the $232
million, $63 million is identified that, and the programs break
down as follows. And I apologize, the time limits. Early On is
a program to help kids from birth, essentially, to have
assessments a couple times a year and then have intensive
follow-on services to the degree the assessments identify
issues. We're talking about adding developmental childcare to
help kids beyond that point.
Mr. Welch. I am going to interrupt. I appreciate it. I only
have 5 minutes.
Governor Snyder. I'm sorry. I thought you asked me to
answer ----
Mr. Welch. No, I did. And I am going to let--you can submit
that in writing.
Governor Snyder. Okay.
Mr. Welch. But here is the apprehension I have. I am a
parent, and you have got these programs you just announced. I
am trying to figure out today what I do tomorrow. And who does
the parent call when things aren't working out? Who does the
parent call when they are late for work because their child is
having an episode? You know, will there be somebody answering
the phone?
Governor Snyder. My commitment is to get a long-term
solution to this.
Mr. Welch. All right. So let me ask you this. You have got
about $1 billion in Michigan from--partly from a rainy day
fund, right, and partly ----
Governor Snyder. No, it's about $600 million, but it is a
significant amount of money.
Mr. Welch. In the rainy day fund?
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Mr. Welch. And then you have some money from your surplus?
Governor Snyder. That money is also being identified for
the State water infrastructure fund.
Mr. Welch. All right. Let me ask you this. Let us say that
when your own assessment reaches the conclusion that to meet
those needs that you have acknowledged--I described them, and
you said my description didn't actually fully state how bad it
really is. If new revenue is required to meet the obligations
to these young children years from now that your assessment
shows today that money will be needed, and it requires you to
promote revenue-raising measures in order to get it, would you
do that?
Governor Snyder. What we're doing already is we've
identified ongoing dollars that we think are appropriate to
cover the cost of those programs. But to go to your point, one
of the things in particular I have in that appropriation is a
$50 million reserve. Because it's too soon to tell all these
things.
Mr. Welch. Yes, but you have asked for $238 million. We
don't know what it is going to cost. We just don't know. We are
in the wild blue yonder here. You don't know. We don't know.
Let us be fair. None of us really know.
And you wish, and I am sure as we all wish, this didn't
happen. But there is an open-ended problem where we are going
to be hemorrhaging lives and futures unless we really double
down now. And what assurance would I have as a parent that
those future and even unknown needs are going to be met if I
don't have a State through its Governor saying whatever it
takes, we are going to be there?
Governor Snyder. Well, that's why I've made a commitment to
get these resources to start these programs with significant
reserves to say we will learn more. I appreciate your comment.
Mr. Welch. All right. One other--one other question. You
know, I actually buy into the argument that a lot of my
Republican colleagues make about local control. I think the
more things are done at the local level, the better.
But the request now and your request is the $750 million
from the Federal Government ----
Chairman Chaffetz. The gentleman's time has ----
Mr. Welch. Okay. I appreciate the indulgence.
Chairman Chaffetz. Okay. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Welch. Yield back. Thank you.
Chairman Chaffetz. Members are advised that there is a vote
on the floor, but it is in the intention of the chair to
continue the hearing until its conclusion. Both of these people
have a lot of things to do rather than wait around for us to
continue to vote.
So Members will have to make a choice, and we will continue
until we have run through the questioning.
We will now recognize the gentleman from California, Mr.
DeSaulnier, for 5 minutes.
Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And Governor, one of my favorite quotes from Justice
Brandeis is a familiar one that he said that the cure for what
ails government is frequently sunshine. So my comments are
consistent with that. And if you could be brief so that I won't
have to interrupt you, I would appreciate that.
So, as you know, the committee has requested copies of all
your records relating to the Flint water crisis. And this week,
your attorney told our committee staff that you deleted
personally many of your emails. He also said you only started
preserving emails in April of 2013 when a litigation hold was
placed on your account. Is that true, and have you ever
acknowledged that previously in public?
Governor Snyder. I hope that would have been corrected
because that's not accurate.
Mr. DeSaulnier. All right. In your ``state of the State''
address, you committed only to releasing emails from 2014 and
'15. Have you committed since then to release the emails from
2013?
Governor Snyder. I'm releasing my personal emails related
to this going back to 2011. We're releasing executive office
emails, and we're going through the process of departmental
emails. So far, we've got 43,120 pages up on the Web of
documents.
Mr. DeSaulnier. Okay. And in terms of the timeline, the
switch to the Flint River, of course, was in March of 2013.
That was a month before you stopped deleting your emails. So
the question is have you directed any of your staff, given what
you just said, to search backup files for any Flint-related
emails prior to April of 2013?
Governor Snyder. Again, Congressman, I thought I mentioned
and I thought I communicated that that belief you had about the
deletion was inaccurate.
Mr. DeSaulnier. All right. Just want to see if we are being
consistent. I am not an attorney. So you don't have to worry
about that.
Last week, your lawyer sent us a letter with the first set
of documents. He explained that these documents were blacked
out or redacted for a variety of reasons, and there are a lot
of redactions.
For example, and I think we have a copy of what you sent us
or your attorney sent us. There is a document entitled
``Governor Rick Snyder, November 6, 2015,'' your weekend
briefing. It includes a line about Flint water, and then 49
pages of redactions. Is there a reason, as far as you can
remember, why there were 49 pages of redactions?
Governor Snyder. Again, I didn't review this specific one.
Those would have been issues other than Flint.
Mr. DeSaulnier. Okay. Would you--would you release that
information, the redactions then to the committee staff, as we
often ask for people to release their information?
Governor Snyder. To the degree you have that request, I'm
happy to go through the process of reviewing it. One of the
challenges in particular with much of this information, there
is personal, confidential information that if we were release,
it would create liability for the State.
Mr. DeSaulnier. Mm-hmm. So you make a commitment to release
those things that aren't personally liable ----
Governor Snyder. Again, there is a series of those issues,
in addition to legal matters, that we need to be careful about.
I'm happy to have the discussion.
Mr. DeSaulnier. Okay. Have you--and there is also an issue
from our committee staff about campaign-related emails. Are you
also willing to share those emails with us? Because some of
them were concerned also overlapped in terms of information
about what you were doing on Flint.
So you have your email in your Governor's office that you
personally manage and then campaign related.
Governor Snyder. It wasn't anything related, per se. It was
an account originally created for my campaign, and I do some
personal emails in. And I believe we've already posted much of
that information on the Web.
Mr. DeSaulnier. Okay. As long as you are willing to share
what the committee has asked you for, and if you could explain
to us why you could not specifically on both accounts, that
would be helpful.
And then we have asked your current and former staff to
search their personal emails. Are you willing to--in terms of
their relationship to this issue. Are you willing to share that
with our staff?
Governor Snyder. Again, I believe we've already done a lot
of work on their government emails. I would have to look into
the issue with respect to their personal emails.
Mr. DeSaulnier. Okay. And regards to, the last question,
texting. Texting, are you equally willing to share that with
the staff?
Governor Snyder. I believe people are already making those
reviews.
Mr. DeSaulnier. And just a comment, and this is all due
respect to EPA, but in California, with all due respect and we
have great regional administrators in Region 9, and I have had
the pleasure to work with them. It is sort of hard to--I mean,
we look at EPA in California as a threshold.
We are proud of the fact that we go beyond that. And this
is decades of both Republican and Democratic administrations.
So forgive me politically, but it seems as if, for people who,
as Mr. Welch said, believe in States' rights and local control,
you would be more willing to accept both responsibility when
you slipped up.
And it just seems in terms of this finger pointing, I know
in California, we would be very embarrassed, of course, in any
of these kind of situation, and you have acknowledged that. But
our threshold would be the California threshold, not the EPA
threshold.
Do you have any comment on that? Governor Snyder?
Governor Snyder. Oh, again ----
Mr. DeSaulnier. I mean, it seems as if we are working for
State rights, but when--when you fail, from my perspective,
then the responsibility is the Federal Government. But when you
do well, it is because the State has done well.
So there seems to be a disconnect here from my perspective.
Governor Snyder. Congressman, if you'd like, I'd be happy
to provide a copy of my ``state of the State'' address, where I
stood in front of the entire State of Michigan and talked about
this failure and how I apologized. I was sorry, and I'm going
to fix it.
Mr. DeSaulnier. I understand. Sir, I appreciate that.
Governor Snyder. So I've been very clear about accepting
responsibility for the people that work for me, for the so-
called experts that created this crisis that is a terrible
tragedy that never should have happened.
Mr. DeSaulnier. Agreed.
Governor Snyder. And I want to make sure it never happens
again, and I want to take care of the people of Flint.
Mr. DeSaulnier. Agreed. And we also have to accept
accountability.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
I will now recognize myself, and I will not close this
hearing until Mr. Cummings has equal time as well.
But let me go to Administrator McCarthy. The lead and
copper rule requires you by law to update it every 6 years, but
you did not do that. Correct?
Ms. McCarthy. It actually requires us to review it every 6
years to see if it needs to be updated.
Chairman Chaffetz. You don't believe that it is required
under law to actually update it?
Ms. McCarthy. There are many laws that ----
Chairman Chaffetz. You are just supposed to look at it?
Ms. McCarthy. No, sir. We were actively looking at this. We
are actively looking at this rule. It is very challenging ----
Chairman Chaffetz. But you said it is ----
Ms. McCarthy.--if you want to do a substantive revision to
it.
Chairman Chaffetz. Well ----
Ms. McCarthy. If you want to do what the last
administration did, just tweak it a bit, it doesn't take that
long.
Chairman Chaffetz. Don't blame the Bush administration. You
have been in office for more than 7 years now. So you said, in
your own words, that you were going to have this new rule out
in 2013. Correct?
Ms. McCarthy. I'm really not aware of that, sir. I know
that the schedule that I'm aware of is a 2017 schedule.
Chairman Chaffetz. You mean the 2018 is what we heard
testimony on.
Ms. McCarthy. Well, the draft would be out in 2017. That's
what I'm aware of, my timeline.
Chairman Chaffetz. See, this is--this is what is so
frustrating. You have somebody like an expert like Marc Edwards
come and tell us there are so many ways around this and there
is so much confusion. Do you believe there is any confusion
about the lead and copper rule?
Ms. McCarthy. I do believe that it can be strengthened, and
I do believe there were weaknesses ----
Chairman Chaffetz. No, no, no. That is not what I asked,
strengthened. I am asking if you think there is any confusion.
Ms. McCarthy. Well, I believe there probably is confusion.
I'm not the one on the receiving end of it, but we work to
clarify that whenever anyone has ----
Chairman Chaffetz. You are the Administrator. What do you
mean, you are not on the receiving end of it?
Ms. McCarthy. Well, I meant because we manage the program.
The States do the implementation, and they do the enforcement.
And in this case, we were very clear to them what their
responsibility was under the existing law. So while I
understand we should strengthen the law, I agree ----
Chairman Chaffetz. So when--when ----
Ms. McCarthy. We had what we needed in place to prevent
this from happening.
Chairman Chaffetz. Really? But then why did it happen?
Ms. McCarthy. Because the State didn't implement and
enforce appropriately.
Chairman Chaffetz. So you sent Miguel Del Toral in February
2015 out to go do the testing.
Ms. McCarthy. That wasn't for a lead and copper rule
testing. That was a testing for an individual in their home,
which ended up being three houses where there was a localized
problem. I did not have information until July 21st that there
was a systemic problem with that system. Yet as soon as we knew
there was any problem in three houses, we told them to start
doing ----
Chairman Chaffetz. No, you didn't. No, you didn't.
Ms. McCarthy.--the proper treatment.
Chairman Chaffetz. No, because ----
Ms. McCarthy. I'm sorry. We did.
Chairman Chaffetz. But the timeline is such that Miguel Del
Toral goes, does the testing.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Chairman Chaffetz. The report gets leaked, which he feels
he was reprimanded for. It gets released. The Mayor calls the
EPA, Susan Hedman, and says is this report true? Should I be
worried? The answer is, no, you have nothing to worry about.
And the Mayor went on television--we played it before this
committee--and says it is safe to drink the water.
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, I think I tried to explain that Susan
did not dismiss the substance of the report. She indicated that
it was interim, the data hadn't been quality controlled, and it
wasn't leaked. It was actually sent out. It was in the
newspapers.
Chairman Chaffetz. That is not ----
Ms. McCarthy. I mean, so the information was available.
Chairman Chaffetz. I know it was in the newspapers, and the
ACLU was pushing on it, and the person's home that you came to,
it was out there.
Ms. McCarthy. And when in April ----
Chairman Chaffetz. So why--why--why do the testing if you
are just going to simply blame the State? I mean, there is no
doubt and the Governor has admitted that the people and the
information that were happening from the career bureaucrats at
the Department of Environmental Quality got it wrong.
But let me read to you this. This is you said they did
everything, that you immediately wanted to have everything done
on the corrosion control. Correct?
Ms. McCarthy. I said by starting April 24th, when we
realized that they were not doing corrosion control, we told
them under the current law they should do it.
Chairman Chaffetz. Okay. Well, I am going to enter into the
record an email. Who is Jennifer Crooks?
Ms. McCarthy. She is one of our staff people, our managers
in the water program in the region.
Chairman Chaffetz. Is she competent?
Ms. McCarthy. As far as I know. I don't know her
personally.
Chairman Chaffetz. Okay. Well, on July 1st, she sends, and
there are a lot of DEQ personnel on here, and I am going to
read part of what she says. You just said that you told them to
introduce the corrosion control in April.
This is what she wrote to the Department of Environmental
Quality. ``The idea to ask Flint to simply add phosphate may be
premature. There are many other issues and factors that must be
taken into account, which would require a comprehensive look at
the water quality and the system before any treatment
recommendations can and should be made.''
Ms. McCarthy. Then let me explain that, if you wouldn't
mind?
Chairman Chaffetz. Sure.
Ms. McCarthy. Because that actual advice came from Miguel.
Because when I say you need to do treatment, it does not mean
that I have a switch to turn on. He indicated that the agency
didn't have the full water quality data. That's when we
demanded and offered and begged to be on their technical
advisory ----
Chairman Chaffetz. You were. This was a conference--it was
a summary of the conference call between DEQ and the EPA.
Ms. McCarthy. No, there was a Flint technical advisory
committee ----
Chairman Chaffetz. What do you mean, no?
Ms. McCarthy. I'm sorry.
Chairman Chaffetz. Look, the public can look at this for
themselves.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay. But it was not as easy as flipping a
switch. It did not mean that they didn't need to require to do
it. The question was whether we were going to be premature and
how best to get that done ----
Chairman Chaffetz. No, what you did is you came here and
you blamed solely the State. And I am here to tell you the
State has a big part of this blame. I am not trying to excuse
them whatsoever. But you are trying to excuse everything from
the EPA saying you told them to put phosphates in the water,
and they didn't.
Ms. McCarthy. Sir, I'm not trying to shift blame ----
Chairman Chaffetz. The documents--no.
Ms. McCarthy.--I'm trying to get facts on the record.
Chairman Chaffetz. Wait until I am done asking you the
question. The documentation says that you actually had a
conference call from the EPA telling DEQ to not do it yet.
Ms. McCarthy. No, we were telling them that they had to do
corrosion control. The method and treatment depended on experts
to tell them how to do it. We offered that consistently from
March on ----
Chairman Chaffetz. What did you tell them?
Ms. McCarthy.--and they actually never even took us up on
it until September.
Chairman Chaffetz. That is not true. I am going to enter
into the record, we entered this before, November 3rd. Who is
Peter Grevatt?
Ms. McCarthy. He is the manager, our drinking water office
in headquarters.
Chairman Chaffetz. Yes, he is the Washington, D.C., expert.
Here is what he wrote, okay? This is November 3rd. ``It
appears--it appears there are different possible
interpretations of the lead and copper rule with respect to how
the rule's optimal corrosion control treatment procedures apply
to this situation, which may have led to some uncertainty with
respect to the Flint water system.''
So here you have a city who is begging for help. They know
they are in trouble, okay? They are asking for that help, and I
have got email after email from the Environmental Protection
Agency saying, you know what, maybe you should hold off because
we are not sure. Maybe there is confusion under the lead and
copper rule. Maybe we are supposed to do 6 months of testing.
I am not excusing them at all, but you need to take some
responsibility because you screwed up and messed up 100,000
people's lives, 100,000 of them. Ten thousand of those people
are 6 years old and younger.
And you take no responsibility. You don't think you did
anything wrong, right? You don't think there is anybody did
anything wrong.
Ms. McCarthy. I already indicated that we could have worked
more aggressively. I wish we had.
Chairman Chaffetz. Yes.
Ms. McCarthy. Can I explain the memo? Would you like me to?
Chairman Chaffetz. I want you to have an appreciation and
an understanding of why the DEQ people are confused by the
direction from the Department of Environmental--from the EPA.
Ms. McCarthy. There was no confusing signal sent from the
agency during this period of time.
Chairman Chaffetz. What were they supposed to do? Should
they have put the phosphates in the water, yes or no?
Ms. McCarthy. Not dumping it in without connecting with the
experts, and they did not have the expert voice at the table
because they refused to let us to the table.
Chairman Chaffetz. They were at the table. This comes from
the EPA.
Ms. McCarthy. That is not--sir, I'm sorry.
Chairman Chaffetz. She starts the email ----
Ms. McCarthy. That is not the task force we're talking
about to provide technical expert.
Chairman Chaffetz. Okay. Okay, let us go through the list.
Liane Smith, Richard Benzie, Kris Phillip, Carrie Monosmith,
Dana--I am going to mispronounce their last name ----
Ms. McCarthy. It's okay. I don't ----
Chairman Chaffetz. Going through this. Hold on.
Ms. McCarthy. I don't know those individuals. So ----
Chairman Chaffetz. Yes, they all work for you. And the EPA
----
Governor Snyder. Some of them work for the State.
Chairman Chaffetz.--here is what it says. Here is what it
says. I am sorry, DEQ. But from the EPA--thank you, Governor.
The Governor knows who works for him.
``Below are my draft notes from our call last week. Thank
you all for participating. I apologize --'' first apology I
have seen--``for the delay in getting out this draft for you to
all review.''
And it says don't simply add the phosphates. Can you--I
only want you to acknowledge is that there should be some ----
Ms. McCarthy. Because it could have created more damage
than it cured.
Chairman Chaffetz. Exactly. Exactly.
Ms. McCarthy. Water systems are difficult and deserve
technical experts, which they did not have available. We did.
They wouldn't let them at the table.
Chairman Chaffetz. They were at the table. They were in the
same conversation.
Ms. McCarthy. That is not the table. That is a semi-annual
call we have with the department where we share information. If
you look through the record, we consistently said we have
national experts. We want to help. We had worked behind the
scenes to figure out how we could do that. We just never got
invited, nor were we accepted at the table at this point.
Chairman Chaffetz. Okay, I am going to go through my last
point, and then we will get to Mr. Clay here.
You said you didn't have the authority to do. I want to
read to you part of the law here, okay? This is Section 1431,
Part (d). Part (d), Section 1431 of the emergency powers within
the Safe Drinking Water Act. It says, ``The Administrator --''
That would be you.
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Chairman Chaffetz. ``-- upon receipt of information that a
contaminant, which is present in or likely to enter a public
water system,'' and I am skipping ahead because it qualifies
for terrorist attacks and all those types of things, ``which
may present an imminent and substantial endangerment to the
health of persons and that appropriate State and local
authorities have not acted to protect the health of such
persons, may take such actions as he may deem necessary in
order to protect the health of such persons.''
So if they weren't doing what you wanted them to do, why
didn't you take action earlier?
Ms. McCarthy. You know, I'm surprised, Mr. Chairman, the
second part is about States' rights, and what we have to do --
--
Chairman Chaffetz. What do you mean, the second part?
Ms. McCarthy. There is a two-part process to us actually
issuing a 1431. The second is we need to make sure that the
States aren't already taking appropriate action. That's what's
so infuriating about ----
Chairman Chaffetz. So when did you know that they didn't do
it?
Ms. McCarthy. We knew July 21st that there was a systemic
problem. The State agreed the next day, and then all they did
was slow-walk it. That's why we had to do it the way we did. I
wished we had gone further. I wish we had gone farther. I wish
we had yelled from the treetops.
But there is no way that my agency created this problem or
there was ambiguity in the existing law that wouldn't have done
the same thing that the Governor said, which was let them know,
use your common sense, don't put people at risk, just because
we couldn't figure out that in the life of us, in our guidance,
we never thought that anybody would go from a treated system to
an untreated system and not treat it.
I didn't think we ever had to say that because I never
thought anyone would. That's where we are today.
Chairman Chaffetz. You can't have it both ways. You can't
have people on the ground testing it, people like Miguel Del
Toral doing the types of tests ----
Ms. McCarthy. That wasn't ----
Chairman Chaffetz.--sending up the warning flags. No,
sending up the warning flags, and then not acting.
Ms. McCarthy. Okay, sir.
Chairman Chaffetz. I have gone way past my time. We will
recognize the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Clay.
Mr. Clay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
You know, I have to hand it to my Republican colleagues.
They are actually making their argument with a straight face.
You know, just to be clear, Republicans here today are claiming
that the EPA, the Obama EPA should have been more aggressive in
stepping in, seizing control, and overruling the Republican-
controlled State of Michigan.
They are just outraged that EPA wasn't more assertive with
Michigan and didn't immediately go public with their complaints
about the State's failure to follow the law. Ms. McCarthy, the
irony is almost overwhelming, isn't it?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Clay. And Republicans have been absolutely slamming the
EPA for overreaching at every possible turn. Now they criticize
the EPA for not doing more when Governor Snyder fell down on
the job. You know, let us go through some of these ridiculous
Republican statements.
Donald Trump has called for entirely eliminating the EPA
and handing power over to the State. He said this, and I quote,
``Environmental protection, we waste all of this money. We are
going to bring that back to the States. We are going to cut
many of the agencies. We will balance our budget, and we will
be dynamic again.''
Ms. McCarthy, the EPA did ultimately step in here because
Michigan was not doing their job, and if you have been
criticized for not stepping in sooner--and you have been
criticized for not stepping in sooner, right?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Clay. Another Republican candidate, Senator Ted Cruz,
agrees with Donald Trump. He said this, and I quote, ``I think
States should press back using every tool they have
available.''
Were you aware of this statement?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Clay. Marco Rubio, now former Republican candidate, has
vowed to scale back the Clean Water Act. He said this,
``Regulations in this country are out of control, especially
the employment prevention agency, the EPA.''
Ms. McCarthy, that was a dig at you, right?
Ms. McCarthy. Yes.
Mr. Clay. Saying that ensuring clean water costs too many
jobs. Is that right?
Ms. McCarthy. That's how I would read it, sir.
Mr. Clay. You know, there are many more Republican
statements like this. Republican Governor Scott Walker,
Wisconsin, has proposed converting the EPA into, and I quote,
``an umbrella organization that really is limited to mediating
interstate conflicts.''
Senator Joni Ernst of Iowa said this, ``Let us shut down
the Federal EPA and focus on those issues where here in the
State, where the State knows best how to protect resources.''
What about the State protecting people?
Ms. McCarthy, obviously, the State of Michigan did not know
best in this case. They poisoned thousands of their own people.
Is that correct?
Ms. McCarthy. They did not do their job, yes.
Mr. Clay. You know, House Republicans, including those in
this committee, have voted at every turn to gut the EPA's
authority to enforce the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act,
the National Environmental Policy Act, and the list goes on.
You know, despite all these Republican statements that EPA
should be eliminated and that it overreaches, the main
criticism of Republicans here today is that the EPA was not
more aggressive in swooping into the State of Michigan.
What do you think, Governor Snyder? Was the EPA aggressive
enough?
Governor Snyder. Congressman, the way I view it is I don't
want to get into finger pointing and blame. The State of
Michigan, people that worked for me that were the experts made
a mistake. They made a huge, tragic mistake in terms of going
over to the Flint River.
They called for two 6-month studies to determine optimizing
corrosion controls. That was not a good answer. Technically,
they believe--I believe they believed they were doing the right
thing. To put it in context, where is the common sense? Where
is the urgency?
Because we were on Detroit water before, which had
corrosion controls in it. Isn't it common sense you should also
have them in the water you have coming in?
Mr. Clay. Before my time runs out, what do we do now? What
about--yes, I know they are talking about changing the pipes
and the lead and all of that, getting that out of there. What
do we do for the people who have been impacted negatively? Do
we have a plan? Do you have a plan, as the State of Michigan?
Governor Snyder. Yes, sir.
Mr. Clay. What is it?
Governor Snyder. And we're implementing it.
Mr. Clay. What is it?
Governor Snyder. It begins by we've had $67 million in
appropriations so far, and we're requesting $232 million in
total, and it's involving water, water infrastructure, food and
nutrition because that's one of the critical elements needed,
physical and social well-being and educational programs.
Mr. Clay. Does it include early childhood development ----
Governor Snyder. Absolutely ----
Mr. Clay.--because those are the ones that are impacted the
most?
Governor Snyder. Under 6, critically important.
Mr. Clay. Okay.
Governor Snyder. Going on, water bill credit relief because
they shouldn't have to pay for that water during that time
period that they were using.
Mr. Clay. Okay.
Governor Snyder. And then a significant reserve fund
because, as we go through this, we're going to find new needs,
and we need to be ready to act.
Mr. Clay. All right. And then that includes the adults,
too? They probably need special attention also.
Governor Snyder. Particularly people with suppressed immune
systems, foster care situations, or elderly. Again, one of the
things we took immediate action on that is mind-boggling about
this whole process that I never understood is there is no
requirement to test the school.
So not only have we gone into the schools to test them, we
found they didn't have lead service lines going into them, but
they had problems with fixtures. So we simply said enough of
the testing. Let's just start replacing fixtures in schools to
address this issue.
Mr. Clay. I see. Thank you for your response.
I yield back.
Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
And I will recognize the ranking member.
Mr. Cummings. Thank you very much, and I want to thank our
witnesses for being with us and staying through all of this.
Governor Snyder, based on the record before the committee,
many of your top advisers and key State officials knew there
was a problem with Flint's drinking water, but you say you were
not aware. Now I would like to run through what these people
knew.
First, let me ask you about one of your top legal advisers
in your office, Michael Gadola. He wrote an email on October
14, 2014, stating, and I quote, ``The notion that I would be
getting my drinking water from the Flint River is downright
scary. Too bad the emergency manager didn't ask me what I
thought, but I am sure he heard it from plenty of others. My
mom is a city resident. Nice to know she is drinking water with
elevated chlorine levels and fecal coliform. They should try to
get back on the Detroit system as a stopgap as soon as possible
before this thing gets too far out of control.''
That was written in America by one of your top legal
advisers. Would you--would you consider him a top legal
adviser?
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Mr. Cummings. Okay. Do you take your legal advisers'
advice?
Governor Snyder. On legal matters.
Mr. Cummings. Yes, all right. Do you remember hearing any
of this, getting this?
Governor Snyder. I don't recall discussing it with him, and
I don't believe I was on that email.
Mr. Cummings. Okay. You didn't receive this email in 2014,
and so did you know that your top legal adviser even raised
these kind of concerns?
Governor Snyder. I don't recall. I recall we were concerned
about water in Flint, though. Again, the issue was not a lead
issue at that time. There was issues with E. coli and the odor
and color of the water.
Mr. Cummings. You know, Governor, I keep hearing that,
hearing you say things like that. But I swear to God, if
somebody gave me water that looked like urine and had a smell
to it, I am sorry, you know, maybe--maybe your standards are
different. I wouldn't want my family drinking it, and I
wouldn't want to be drinking it.
And my standard is I want for my constituents what I want
for my own, my own family. And, but let us go on.
Let me turn to your top officials at the MDEQ. On April 17,
2014, about a week before they switched to the Flint River, the
water quality supervisor at the Flint plant sent an email to
three top MDEQ officials, Adam Rosenthal, Mike Prysby, and
Stephen Busch.
Now let me tell you what he wrote, and I quote, ``If water
is distributed from this plant in the next couple of weeks, it
will be against my direction. I need time to adequately train
additional staff and to update our monitoring plans before I
will feel we are ready. I will reiterate this to management
above me, but they seem to have their own agenda.''
Did you know that the water quality supervisor warned your
top officials at MDEQ not to go forward one week earlier?
Governor Snyder. To my knowledge, I had no awareness of
that email.
Mr. Cummings. That is not what I asked you. I said were you
aware that they had the concerns?
Governor Snyder. No.
Mr. Cummings. Okay.
Governor Snyder. I don't recall any.
Mr. Cummings. All right. Let me turn to the Director of
Urban Initiatives in your office, Harvey Hollins. In mid March
2015, Mr. Hollins received an email warning him that there had
been a ``significant uptick'' in the number of reported
Legionnaire's disease cases. Were you aware of that last March?
Were you aware of that?
Governor Snyder. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cummings. Okay. Let me turn to your former chief of
staff, Mr. Muchmore. Now I want to make sure, you know,
somebody--I think I don't know whether it was Mrs. Lawrence,
somebody was asking you about the structure of the way things
are situated in your office.
But in congressional offices, for the most part, your chief
of staff answers to no one but the congressman. Now is there
anybody in between you and the chief of staff?
Governor Snyder. No.
Mr. Cummings. All right. So the chief of staff would answer
directly to you?
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Mr. Cummings. All right. And if it is logical that if the
chief of staff has some concerns and was saying we ought to do
certain things, doesn't it seem logical that that would come to
you?
Governor Snyder. I don't recall specific conversations. We
had discussions about water quality in Flint, and we were
working a number of issues. You mentioned Harvey Hollins, I was
working with the chief of staff and Harvey Hollins to get a
donation of filters to deal with the odor and color issues for
a pastor's group in Flint.
Mr. Cummings. Well, in July, Mr. Muchmore, your chief of
staff, he sent an email warning that residents ``are concerned,
and rightfully so, about the lead level studies they are
receiving'' and that they--``they are basically getting blown
off by us.''
You were not on that email either, were you?
Governor Snyder. No. I don't believe so.
Mr. Cummings. Did--so he didn't forward it to you?
Governor Snyder. I don't recall ever receiving it.
Mr. Cummings. Does it alarm you that he is saying that they
were blown off? In other words, your constituents, the ones
that you asked to vote for you, the ones that you are
supposedly about the business of improving their lives, were
saying that they were being blown off. Does that bother you?
I mean, when you look back at it? I am not saying you knew
about it, I am just asking you would it bother you?
Governor Snyder. In terms of looking at the record, as I
recall, he went out to both DEQ and DHHS and asked the experts
the question in terms of the water being safe or not, and they
told him it was. And that was wrong in retrospect.
Mr. Cummings. Now, okay, it looks like almost everyone knew
about these problems except you. You were completely missing in
action. That is not leadership, do you think, Mr. Governor?
Governor Snyder. I was not missing in action, Congressman.
I had ongoing discussions about a number of water issues in
Flint. I received several briefings on it, had a number of
discussions. And the continuing response from the experts,
whether to Dennis Muchmore or other people, when you look at
the record is they would tell you it was safe.
Mr. Cummings. Now you can understand why the residents of
Flint would be skeptical about what you are saying, right? I
mean, they are not like us. I mean, they just know somebody--
they say, chief of staff, that sounds like somebody very
important, sounds like somebody that would answer directly to
the Governor.
I mean, you can kind of understand that concern, couldn't
you?
Governor Snyder. I absolutely do, sir, and I'm going to
have to live with this my entire life.
Mr. Cummings. On your Web site--but Governor, you know
what? You know, I have heard you say that, but I got to tell
you. There are children that got to live with it, the damage
that has been done for the rest of their lives. And it is
painfully painful to think that a child could be damaged until
the day they die and that their destiny has been cut off and
messed up.
So, yes, you have to live with it, but they, many of these
children, will never be what God intended them to be when they
were born and conceived.
I just have a few more questions. On your Web site, you say
to the people of Michigan, ``We will learn from this
experience.'' But an entire generation has been poisoned.
Governor, what are those children supposed to learn from
your utter lack of--let us say from this incident, what are
they supposed to learn?
Governor Snyder. One of the terrible parts of all this is
there is a huge issue, in addition to all their medical issues
and educational issues, as you mentioned, sir. But there is a
question of trust in government.
Mr. Cummings. Yes.
Governor Snyder. And there is good reason for them to ask
that question. And that is going to take a huge amount of time
to earn back, if it can be earned back, and it involves getting
third-party experts, such as Professor Edwards and Dr. Mona to
be part of the process so people can have confidence and people
they trust that were the heroes that helped bring this issue
up.
Mr. Cummings. Governor Snyder, I would like to talk to you
about your priorities for a minute. In your administration, you
have shown over and over again that money is a high priority.
Despite the fact that Michigan had a budget surplus, you did
not even bother asking the legislature to provide the money
necessary to move Flint back to the Detroit water. The truth,
Governor Snyder, is that Flint was not--did not seem to be a
priority because on January 24, 2015, you sent an email to your
staff with a list of priorities for 2015.
Most of the document is redacted, but we can see that
number 36 on the list, number 36 on the list was the Flint
water system. So, Governor, Flint water was not your first
priority. It was not in the top 10, wasn't even in the top 20,
not even in the top 30. Flint was number 36.
Shouldn't the children and the residents of Flint have been
higher on your priority list, Mr. Governor?
Governor Snyder. In retrospect, with it becoming a true
safety issue with the lead issue, it should have been higher.
That was not the issue at the time.
Mr. Cummings. Now, Mr. Governor, we also know what you do
prioritize. When things got rough for you and your
administration started being investigated by law enforcement,
you got the people of Michigan to pay your legal fees.
Governor, do you admit here today that you have asked the
people of Michigan for more than $1 million to pay for your
criminal and civil defense fees?
Governor Snyder. Yes.
Mr. Cummings. And it makes me sick to think you found a way
to have the State of Michigan pay over $1 million in legal
fees, yet you thought so little of the people in Flint that you
could not be bothered to ask the legitimate--the legislature
for money to switch them over to clean water. You cannot be
trusted, and I got to tell you, you need to resign.
[Applause.]
Mr. Cummings. Mr. Governor, I know we are at the end of the
hearing. I want to--and we are at the end, right? Are we?
I just want to thank both of you for being here. And we
have got to do better than this. We all deserve better. And I
told the chairman from the very beginning, no matter who is
responsible, we wanted to address this issue.
And one of the things, Mr. Governor, 15 of your people, you
talk about transparency, but 15 of your people refused to talk
to us, refused. So I hope that you will urge them. I saw, read
something yesterday where you said you urged them to talk. We
need to hear from them. All right?
Thank you, sir.
Chairman Chaffetz. I thank the gentleman.
I want to thank all those that have participated in the
three sets of hearings that we have had. There is no doubt,
after having gone through this, that there were a lot of
mistakes is just a total understatement. I want to thank those
who have stepped up to be part of the solution, have recognized
where wrong has been done because they really do need to take
care of these children and take care of the people of the City
of Flint.
And I know that is where everybody's heart is. Our daughter
is getting married soon and moving to Michigan. So it--it is
important, and it reaches real people's lives.
We get pretty heated. We get pretty animated. We get
pretty--you know, we want accountability. But if you don't step
up and understand the problem, if you don't step up and
understand where the mistakes were made, if you don't take some
accountability, then you don't solve it going forward.
That is my problem with the approach that the Administrator
has taken. With all due respect, I know you love this country.
I know you are working hard. I know you take a lot--a lot for
it. But I also believe in my heart that it is just offensive to
suggest that there was nothing wrong done, and to not
apologize, it is just wrong.
So that is just my own personal opinion. We have all got
our own personal opinions. I appreciate working with Mr.
Cummings. We will continue to work together.
Yes, go ahead.
Mr. Cummings. Yes, Mr. Chairman, again, I want to be clear.
I thank you, I really do, for holding these hearings. Because I
can tell you, a lot of chairmen would have never done it, and I
really appreciate it. And on behalf of all of us, you have set
a shining example of what leadership is all about.
Thank you.
Chairman Chaffetz. Well, thank you. Very kind to me.
I also want to thank Congressman Kildee. This is his
district. He pours his heart and soul into this, and he cares
deeply, and we thank him, too, as well.
[Applause.]
Chairman Chaffetz. I think that is appropriate, and with
that, the committee stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:53 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
APPENDIX
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Material Submitted for the Hearing Record
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