[House Hearing, 113 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
AFGHANISTAN: HONORING THE HEROES OF EXTORTION 17
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HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON NATIONAL SECURITY
of the
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
FEBRUARY 27, 2014
__________
Serial No. 113-98
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
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Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov
http://www.house.gov/reform
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COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
DARRELL E. ISSA, California, Chairman
JOHN L. MICA, Florida ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland,
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio Ranking Minority Member
JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
JIM JORDAN, Ohio Columbia
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
TIM WALBERG, Michigan WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan JIM COOPER, Tennessee
PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
PATRICK MEEHAN, Pennsylvania JACKIE SPEIER, California
SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee MATTHEW A. CARTWRIGHT,
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina Pennsylvania
BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
DOC HASTINGS, Washington ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
ROB WOODALL, Georgia TONY CARDENAS, California
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky STEVEN A. HORSFORD, Nevada
DOUG COLLINS, Georgia MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico
MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina Vacancy
KERRY L. BENTIVOLIO, Michigan
RON DeSANTIS, Florida
Lawrence J. Brady, Staff Director
John D. Cuaderes, Deputy Staff Director
Stephen Castor, General Counsel
Linda A. Good, Chief Clerk
David Rapallo, Minority Staff Director
Subcommittee on National Security
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah, Chairman
JOHN L. MICA, Florida JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts,
JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee Ranking Minority Member
JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina JACKIE SPEIER, California
CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming PETER WELCH, Vermont
ROB WOODALL, Georgia MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico
KERRY L. BENTIVOLIO, Michigan
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on February 27, 2014................................ 1
WITNESSES
Mr. Garry Reid, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense,
Special Operations & Low Intensity Conflict, U.S. Department of
Defense
Oral Statement............................................... 6
Written Statement............................................ 8
Ms. Deborah Skillman, Director, Casualty & Mortuary Affairs, U.S.
Department of Defense
Oral Statement............................................... 20
Colonel John Devillier, USAF, Commander, Air Force Mortuary
Affairs Operations, U.S. Department of Defense
Oral Statement............................................... 21
Written Statement............................................ 23
Colonel Kerk Brown, USA, Director, Army Casualty & Mortuary
Affairs, U.S. Department of Defense
Oral Statement............................................... 29
Commander Aaron Brodsky, USN, Director, Navy Casualty Services,
U.S. Department of Defense
Oral Statement............................................... 29
APPENDIX
Joint Statement for OSD, Army & Navy Casualty & Mortuary Affairs. 52
Statements of Mary Strange, Terry Pittman, Ida Pittman, Charlie
Strange and Doug Hamburger, submitted by Rep. Chaffetz......... 64
DD Form 93 submitted by Rep. Chaffetz............................ 79
News Release Aug. 11, 2011: DOD Identifies Service members killed
in CH-47 crash................................................. 83
AFGHANISTAN: HONORING THE HEROES OF EXTORTION 17
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Thursday, February 27, 2014
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on National Security,
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:04 a.m., in
Room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Jason Chaffetz
[chairman of the subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Chaffetz, Lummis, Mica, Duncan,
Amash, Woodall, Tierney, Maloney, Lynch, Speier, Kelly, Welch,
and Grisham.
Also Present: Representatives Rigell and Fortenberry.
Staff Present: Brien A. Beattie, Professional Staff Member;
Adam P. Fromm, Director of Member Services and Committee
Operations; Linda Good, Chief Clerk; Frederick Hill, Director
of Communications and Senior Policy Advisor; Mitchell S.
Kominsky, Counsel; Jim Lewis, Senior Policy Advisor; John Ohly,
Professional Staff Member; Laura Rush, Deputy Chief Clerk;
Sarah Vance, Assistant Clerk; Sang H. Yi, Professional Staff
Member; Jaron Bourke, Minority Director of Administration;
Devon Hill, Minority Research Assistant; Jennifer Hoffman,
Minority Press Secretary; Peter Kenny, Minority Counsel; Chris
Knauer, Minority Senior Investigator; Julia Krieger, Minority
New Media Press Secretary; Elisa LaNier, Minority Deputy Clerk;
Juan McCullum, Minority Clerk; and Dave Rapallo, Minority Staff
Director.
Mr. Chaffetz. Committee will come to order. Thank you all
for being here. I--this hearing, Afghanistan, Honoring the
Heroes of Extortion 17, has been extraordinarily difficult to
organize this hearing, because it's proved nearly impossible to
effectively solicit and subsequently meet the needs and wishes
of every family member and loved one that was onboard Extortion
17.
I want to assure the families that this committee has
questioned the Department of Defense officials on the full
spectrum of the mission, to include extremely sensitive and
highly classified information, in an effort to fully understand
the events pertaining to the tragedy that unfolded that day. We
have tried our best to treat all the families' interests
equally, knowing that there's a wide range of spectrum and
perspectives, given the sheer number of people and families
that are engaged in this.
Two of these--two of our--America's best happen to be from
my congressional district in Utah. And a number of members
obviously care deeply about this issue. You're going to see
members coming and going in this hearing. We have lots of
different things happening here in Congress at the same time.
Some families may claim we have not done enough by not
allowing classified or highly graphic information to be
discussed today and others may claim that any discussion about
Extortion 17 is counterproductive and opens old wounds. If I
did not believe that the majority of the families wanted a
forum like this to exist, we would not be conducting this
hearing. It is extremely sensitive. There are things that we
cannot and will not be discussing in this hearing, given the
classified nature. I hope people will understand that. That's
the way the United States of America operates. And our first
and foremost concern is to make sure that we protect the
ongoing lives and operations of the United States military. But
I will say that the United States is different than the rest of
the world. We are open, we are transparent, we are self-
critical, and we do so in the spirit of making things better.
I'd also--so today as we start this, I'd like to welcome
Ranking Member Tierney of the subcommittee, particularly
Congressman Lynch, who's shown a great deal of interest in
this. I want to welcome Mr. Rigell, who's spent a lot of time
on this. Although not a member of this committee, I appreciate
his presence here today.
On August 6th of 2011, Taliban insurgents killed 30
American servicemen, including 17 Navy SEALs, making it the
largest single day loss of life in naval special warfare
history and the largest single day loss of life during the war
in Afghanistan. The events that unfolded that night are
commonly referred to as Extortion 17, which is the call sign
for the helicopter transporting the special operations
personnel.
We are here today at the request of many of the families of
the fallen heroes aboard Extortion 17 to obtain answers to
their questions where answers can be found. This hearing also
serves to honor the 30 American servicemen aboard Extortion 17
and their families. I've traveled to Afghanistan numerous
times, visited with the servicemen and women there, and have
nothing but the greatest respect and admiration that are
serving our country.
Over the course of many months, the committee has had an
open and ongoing dialogue with many of the families and
servicemen, families of the servicemen aboard Extortion 17. In
an effort to find answers to many of the outstanding questions
regarding Extortion 17, some concerning the operation, others
regarding postmortem events, we have welcomed the families to
communicate their thoughts and concerns with the committee.
In addition to attending a funeral of one of the servicemen
aboard Extortion 17, I personally met with some of the families
of the 30 servicemen to hear their concerns and listen
carefully to what questions they had about the tragic event.
I offer my deepest condolences to all the families who've
lost a loved one as a result of this incredibly tragic event.
My heart also goes out to the bigger, broader military family
and community, because I know how much they care about their
colleagues and friends and people that they serve with.
It is important as a Nation we not forget the service of
all the men and women who serve this country. They've served us
in the past, they're serving us now, and they will serve us in
the future.
In advance of this hearing, the committee staff has invited
and encouraged families to submit written testimony for the
record and to pass on some of their questions that may be
directed to the Department of Defense by Members of Congress.
There is an order and a process to this, which I'm proud to
help facilitate.
Because the committee takes the concerns of families with
great sincerity, for more than 8 months we have been reviewing
the facts surrounding Extortion 17. The committee has performed
an extensive review of almost 2,000 pages of unclassified
material related to Extortion 17, the committee has also met
with independent sources with direct and indirect knowledge of
the facts surrounding Extortion 17.
To address some of the unanswered questions, the committee
received briefings, classified and unclassified, on the
operational component leading up to the loss of the 30
servicemen and eight Afghan nationals, and on the postmortem
handling of the 30 American servicemen on Extortion 17.
I'd like to take a moment to thank the Department of
Defense for their cooperation with the subcommittee in
providing answers to many of the questions I have asked and
others have asked of the Department. The facts surrounding
Extortion 17 are terribly heartbreaking, and we appreciate the
candor and willingness to answer difficult questions from both
sides of the aisle. The committee has reviewed these facts in a
bipartisan way, we have had open, transparent dialogue with our
colleagues on both sides of the aisle.
Today the committee will be specifically looking into
whether the remains of U.S. personnel were treated with the
proper respect they deserve, and whether Department of Defense
procedures were followed and sufficient. I strongly believe
that every fallen hero deserves to be treated with the proper
amount of dignity and respect. If there are concerns calling
into question the Department policies, we are here today to
have productive discussion on how we can ensure the proper
treatment of the remains of servicemen.
I'd like to emphasize, it is the intent of the subcommittee
to obtain all the available information about the events
following the crash of Extortion 17, dispel potential myths,
and to learn from the event so we can assure that proper
reforms are implemented.
I want to take a moment to recognize the dedication of our
loyal servicemen to this country in maintaining the security
and bedrock of our principles. In this vein, I'm greatly
saddened that 1,795 U.S. military personnel have given their
lives to serve in Afghanistan since September 11th, 2001, and
19,665 have been wounded in action during that same time frame.
We must pay respect to those men and women and their families
and thank them for their service. I personally believe as a
community, as a Nation, we can do more to help and support and
recognize and honor them.
At that same time, I want to commend the witnesses, three
of which are dressed in uniform and two retired officers for
their service to this country and thank them for appearing
before this subcommittee on a very difficult topic. Their
heart's in the right place, having met with them and chatted
with them. They serve our Nation. We honor them and we thank
you for what it--in attending what is obviously a very
difficult topic, but we appreciate your service and we thank
you for being here today.
With that, I'd now like to recognize the distinguished
Ranking Member, the gentlemen from Massachusetts, Mr. Tierney,
for his opening statement.
Mr. Tierney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Before we begin
today, I think it's extremely important that we honor the lives
of all of our fallen heroes for the untold contributions that
they've made to the service of this country and to the families
who mourn their losses. We need to remember that not only did
we lose 30 great warriors that night in the Afghan battlefield,
but the burden is now carried by the families who lost sons and
fathers, brothers and husbands.
I'd also like to acknowledge that some of the families are
here with us today. For you and the other families who couldn't
attend today's proceedings, I want to express my profound
gratitude for your sons' service and also express my
condolences for your loss.
Mr. Chairman, I understand that there are some out there
who strongly believe this hearing is necessary, and there are
other families and their representatives who have contacted the
subcommittee and expressed great concern about today's hearing.
They've asked for privacy and they seek closure. So I realize
that some have more questions about what happened; we should
acknowledge that not all of the families affected with this
tragedy support these proceedings. And I have confidence, Mr.
Chairman, that you will make all efforts to conduct today's
discussion with both dignity and fairness.
I think it's also important to acknowledge that earlier
this week, senior officials from the Pentagon provided an
extensive briefing to members and staff, where many questions
were asked and answered about the topics that we may not be
able to discuss at today's hearing. We also received an
unclassified briefing last week on some of the post operations
concerns that you do intend to discuss today. Pentagon
officials provided answers to many questions, and I look
forward to their testimony today, which I hope may provide some
answers to those that are still seeking them.
Mr. Chairman, I would also like to acknowledge the
distinguished men and women on today's panel. These officials
also serve their country. Some have even served in harm's way
and others served as one of the final caretakers of our fallen
heroes. During the briefings last week, we heard from these
officials just how humbling their work truly is, and it is not
made it any easier by the fact that the fallen heroes are also
their comrades.
Finally, Mr. Chairman, I want to conclude by noting that to
date, we have lost 2,175 great Americans during the war in
Afghanistan and tens of thousands and others who have been
wounded and severely debilitated.
While we are here today to discuss the events surrounding
the tragic deaths of 30 brave Americans, let's also take the
opportunity to acknowledge the thousands of men and women who
have sacrificed and paid the ultimate price in their service to
this country. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Mica. Mr. Chairman, I have a unanimous consent request.
I would request, Mr. Chairman, that after your remarks and the
remarks of the ranking member, that we insert in the record of
this hearing at this point the names of those individuals,
servicemen who lost their life in the C-47 Chinook helicopter
disaster. And I would ask that that be printed immediately
after your remarks.
Mr. Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered.
I'd like to also thank again the members of our--of our
subcommittee for attending today. I'd also like to recognize
Mr. Fortenberry from Nebraska, who's been very active and
involved and engaged in this issue, and I appreciate his
presence here today.
I would also remind members that they may have 7 days to
submit opening statements for the record. That would be all
members, even those that do not serve here on our committee.
It's now, at this point, I'd like to recognize our panel.
And we have members representing the Pentagon, and we have Mr.
Garry P. Reid, who's the Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary
of the Defense For Special Operations and Low Intensity
Conflict at the United States Department of Defense; Ms.
Deborah Skillman, is the director of Casualty and Mortuary
Affairs at the United States Department of Defense; we have
Colonel John Devillier. Devillier? Devillier--my apologies--is
the Commander of Air Force Mortuary Affairs Operations at the
United States Department of Defense; Colonel Kerk Brown is the
director of Army Casualty and Mortuary Affairs--Mortuary
Affairs Operations Center at the United States Department of
Defense. And we have Commander Aaron Brodsky who is the
director of Navy Casualty Services at the United States
Department of Defense.
Pursuant to committee rules, all witnesses will be sworn
before they testify. If you'd please rise and raise your right
hands. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony
you're about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and
nothing but the truth? Thank you. You may be seated. Let the
record reflect that the witnesses all answered in the
affirmative.
As we have discussed with the Department of Defense, I want
our audience, and particularly the families, to know that there
are some limitations in things that we can discuss. As I've
mentioned, there are certain classified information, certain
things about the actual operation itself that we cannot and
will not in a non-classified setting discuss. This is for the
safety and security of the ongoing operations of our U.S.
military. It is imperative that we do this so that we do not
allow insurgents and other enemies of the United States of
America to gain an operational advantage. We will adhere to
that.
I will assure you that as representatives, we have had
classified briefings, and if we have to have additional
classified briefings, we will, so members can ask their
questions. The Department of Defense and the witnesses here
today understand this.
We are--while we have five witnesses here today, I believe
we're going to have three opening statements, so we're going to
give great liberty to the fact that some of these have been
combined. And I believe we're going to start first with Mr.
Reid. Please go ahead. Proceed.
WITNESS STATEMENTS
STATEMENT OF GARRY REID
Mr. Reid. Thank you, Chairman Chaffetz, Ranking Member
Tierney and distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank
you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I'm here in
the capacity as a senior defense official with oversight of our
special operations, but I'm also here, and I bring to that job
my background of 28 years of service in the U.S. Army in the
Special Operations Forces working very closely with the
organizations that we'll be talking about today. I'm joined by
a team of civilian and military subject matter experts to honor
the fallen of Extortion 17 and to answer your questions.
The downing of Extortion 17 was a catastrophic and
unprecedented tragedy for our Nation. As you indicated,
Chairman, sadly since 2001, there have been 1,795 U.S. military
personnel killed in action in Afghanistan. Any loss of our
warriors is a grim reminder of the tragedies of war, the
violence of combat action, and the perilous lives our forces
live each day in defense of our Nation and our values.
Our sadness for their loss, however, cannot be compared to
the pain and anguish of our Gold Star families, some of whom
are here today. Their sacrifices cannot be measured and their
losses can never be replaced. We are deeply humbled to be in
their presence, and hope our testimony can answer their
questions, and in some small measure, hope to bring them an
additional amount of comfort.
Above all, we are here to pay respect to our fallen heroes
and pay tribute to their ultimate sacrifice and honor their
service.
Again, chairman, as you indicated, on August 5th, 2011, the
brave men of Extortion 17 embarked on an important mission, as
they had done so many times before. They were part of a highly
capable task force that had conducted more than 2,800
operations in Afghanistan in the previous 12 months using
tactics and methods proven in over 10 years of combat against
the Taliban and Al Qaeda in Afghanistan.
Tragically, as Extortion 17 was nearing its landing zone,
Taliban fighters, hidden in a building, fired two or three
rocket-propelled grenades at close range, leaving the pilot no
chance to perform evasive maneuvers. One rocket struck a rotor
blade, causing the aircraft to crash almost instantly.
The recovery operation commenced immediately and lasted 4
days. All of the fallen were recovered within hours, and
ultimately nearly all of the wreckage was recovered. Contrary
to some unofficial statements, there was no flight data
recorder, no so-called black box. This equipment is not
standard on this aircraft.
All of the fallen were taken to Bagram Air Base. A solemn
memorial service marked the beginning of a dignified and
respectful journey home for the brave men of Extortion 17. A
U.S. military chaplain paid tribute to the fallen, as did both
the commander of the U.S. task force and the Afghan special
operations unit involved in the crash.
An investigation was launched immediately, completed within
30 days, and I'd just like to highlight some of the results and
conclusions of that investigation. We believe our forces
employed sound tactics in planning and executing their fateful
mission. Their high tempo operations paced over the previous
months was essential to maintaining pressure on the enemy, and
their success in past operations validated the effectiveness of
their tactics.
We believe the attachment of the Afghan soldiers enhances
the potential for mission success. This specially selected
group attached to our task force make invaluable additions to
their capabilities, having superior knowledge of the operating
environment, the cultural differences, and of course, the
native language capability.
We do not believe the special operations variant of the
Chinook and air crew would have fared any differently than
Extortion 17 on that night. There is no technology advantage
inherent in the special operations model that would have
protected it from the rocket that downed the aircraft.
We recognize, however, that these helicopters are
vulnerable to rocket-propelled grenades. Although there is
currently no proven system to counter that particular weapon
and that particular enemy tactic, in the 2\1/2\ years since
this tragic loss, we have fielded 24 different survivability
and safety equipment upgrades on over 2,000 of our military
aircraft, with the Chinook CH-47 receiving as many as four of
these individual upgrades, and we continue our efforts with the
support of Congress to fund the research and development to
develop the countermeasures that we would need to protect
against the RPG. But I have to say no advances in technology,
or any change in the way we operate will bring back our fallen
heroes or ease the pain of their loved ones. We honor their
sacrifices by continuing to dedicate ourselves to defending the
nation from attack, upholding our values as Americans and
remembering the families left behind. Through our enduring
commitment to these Gold Star families, we will cherish the
sacrifices of the fallen and keep them forever in our hearts.
Chairman, Ranking Member, I stand ready to address your
questions. Thank you very much.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you.
[Prepared statement of Mr. Reid follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Chaffetz. Ms. Skillman.
STATEMENT OF DEBORAH SKILLMAN
Ms. Skillman. Chairman Chaffetz, Ranking Member Tierney,
and distinguished members of the committee, I want to thank you
for the opportunity to appear before you today to answer your
questions regarding our assistance to surviving family members
of these 30 brave heroes who were killed in action on August
6th, 2011.
I am the program manager for Casualty and Mortuary Affairs
within the Office of the Secretary of Defense. In this
capacity, I am responsible for providing uniform policies and
procedures to the military departments for notifying and
assisting the next of kin of service members who have become a
casualty. My office is also the focal point for the
coordination of all matters related to our Mortuary Affairs
programs.
As a little background on myself, I am a retired army
colonel with over 12 years experience working in this
particular program.
The Department holds casualty and Mortuary Affairs program
among our most solemn responsibilities to our service members,
our surviving family members, and to our Nation. A fundamental
element of military culture and tradition is that we hold our
fallen in the highest esteem, treat their remains with highest
reverence and provide their surviving family members the
highest level of care and continued support. My office is
responsible for promulgating casualty and Mortuary Affairs
policies that reflect these core values, and we work in
coordination with the service members and the colleagues, my
colleagues that you see at the table here today, to ensure that
the intent of our policies is reflected throughout all casualty
and mortuary tasks and processes.
If I could just take a moment about some of the testimony
you will hear today and some common terminology that my
colleagues will be using. We will be discussing the DD Form 93.
This is the record of emergency data. And I want to note that
the DD Form 93 is the voice of the service member upon his or
her death. This form is completed by all service members at
regular intervals during their military service, and informs
the casualty offices of whom the service member wishes to be
notified in the event he or she becomes a casualty.
The form also indicates whom the service member wishes to
receive certain death benefits, and it allows the service
member to designate the Person Authorized to Direct
Disposition, or the PADD. It's worth noting that the service
member can select anyone as the PADD, not necessarily a family
member. And the PADD is the single person that the casualty
office may take direction from regarding the disposition of the
service member's remains.
Before I pass it over to my colleague, Colonel Devillier,
sir, my colleagues in the Army and the Navy Casualty Office
have also prepared a statement, and I request that they be
allowed to provide that for the record.
Ms. Skillman. Again, I want to thank you for the
opportunity to appear before you today, and it's my honor and
my privilege to serve in this capacity, and I hope today we'll
be able to address your concerns.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you. And thank you for your service and
your caring. And, of course, we will enter that into the
record. Colonel?
STATEMENT OF COLONEL JOHN DEVILLIER
Colonel Devillier. Chairman Chaffetz, Ranking Member
Tierney and distinguished members of the subcommittee, I
appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to
discuss the process of disposition of our fallen heroes from
Extortion 17.
Since March 2012, I have had the honor and privilege to
serve with some of the finest soldiers, sailors, airmen,
marines and civilians who work behind the scenes providing
dignity, honor and respect to our Nation's combat fallen as
well as care, service and support to their families.
While the port mortuary has been associated with Dover Air
Force Base, Delaware, since the 1950s, the organization I
command was activated in early 2009 in response to Department
of Defense directed changes surrounding authorized family
travel to Dover Air Force Base and media access to dignified
transfer. My organization has both Air Force specific rules,
along with being the lead service component for dignified
transfers and effecting final disposition of our fallen as
directed by the Person Authorized to Direct Disposition, the
PADD.
Since the implementation of policy changes in April 2009,
team Dover has welcomed home over 1,800 of our Nation's fallen
and supported over 8,700 of their families.
The events surrounding the return of the fallen from
Extortion 17 are seen as a watershed for our operation at Dover
in terms of mass fatalities. Team Dover has supported well over
800 family, friends and unit members, as well as more than 40
distinguished visitors desiring to pay their respects to these
brave heroes.
While I was not present for this event, it was a monumental
undertaking for the entire team in terms of support. As with
every fallen service member who arrives at Dover, the fallen
from this event were taken into the medical-legal custody of
the Armed Forces medical examiner system for scientific
identification, which may include fingerprinting, dental and/or
DNA testing followed by a medical autopsy. Upon the scientific
identification, the chain of custody for the fallen is then
passed to my organization to effect final disposition, as
directed by the PADD.
For this incident as a whole, my organization effected
these disposition instructions for our 30 heroes, eight of
which included written requests for cremation from the PADD.
For those eight cases, four were cremated at the port mortuary,
and four were cremated at their final resting place.
Again, we consider this incident a watershed moment and we
have made a number of changes in terms of our in place support
mechanisms. In January 2013, we opened a new command and
control facility to enhance communication between the branches
of service and my organization. Additionally in February 2013,
a new chapel was opened on Dover with one-third of the space
dedicated to our operation in terms of facilities to further
support families.
In my nearly 21 years of active military service, I have
never served in a more honorable or humbling mission. The men
and women who work tirelessly behind the scenes under my
command see the worst results of conflict. Not only do they
honor the fallen, they serve the families, who are often
experiencing the worst moments of their life, and these quiet
professionals ask for nothing in return. I'm proud to serve as
their commander.
Thank you for your time this morning and your strong
support for the men and women of the Department of the Air
Force.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you, Colonel.
[The statement of Colonel Devillier follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Chaffetz. Colonel Brown.
STATEMENT OF COLONEL KERK BROWN
Colonel Brown. Chairman Chaffetz, Ranking Member Tierney
and other distinguished members of the subcommittee, thank you
for the opportunity to represent the United States Army, and I
am humbled to provide testimony in honor of the service members
of Extortion 17.
I have served as the director of the Army Casualty &
Mortuary Affairs Operations Center since July 2012. The mission
of the Casualty & Mortuary Affairs Operations Center is to
execute the full spectrum of Army Casualty & Mortuary Affairs
for present and past conflicts. In this role, the Casualty &
Mortuary Affairs Operations Center provides policy and
direction to 33 casualty assistance centers around the world,
develops standardized casualty assistance and casualty
notification training, provides notification, casualty
assistance and casualty management for injured, ill, missing
and deceased personnel, and operates the joint personal effects
depot at Dover Air Force Base for all of the services.
On August 6th, 2011, five soldiers were killed in action in
support of the Extortion 17 mission. The notification and
assistance provided to the soldiers' next of kin were completed
in accordance with policy. The Army recognizes that people are
the Army, and our dedicated and talented force is the reason
the United States Army is second to none. The Army remains
committed to honor our Nation's commitment to its soldiers and
the family of deceased, injured, ill and unaccounted for
through compassionate and responsive support.
Thank you for your continued support to the United States
Army, and I look forward to answering your questions.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you, Colonel.
STATEMENT OF COMMANDER AARON BRODSKY
Commander Brodsky. Chairman Chaffetz, Ranking Member
Tierney, other distinguished members, good morning. I'm
Director of Navy Casualty & Mortuary Affairs at the Navy
Personnel Command in Millington, Tennessee. Thank you also for
this opportunity.
I've been director of Navy Casualty since August 2013. My
office is lead for the Navy Casualty's assistance program,
which includes next of kin verification, execution of proper
and timely notifications, and benefits and entitlements
authorizations. We do this across three command tiers: Navy
Personnel Command, consisting of program management,
entitlements execution and casualty aftercare; Commander Naval
Installations Command, which is 24/7 operations through
regional operations centers; and the Casualty Assistance Calls
Officer, or CACO, training and assignment, and, of course, our
network of more than 6,000 trained CACOs worldwide.
I'm here today to discuss navy protocol and procedures with
regards to casualty assistance, and I will also discuss the
manner in which casualty assistance was rendered to the
families of the 22 Navy personnel who perished on Extortion 17.
When the Navy first learned of the Extortion 17 incident on
August 6th, 2011, all established protocols and procedures were
initiated, next of kin were verified, and regional CACOs were
assigned. Within a few hours, the extent of this casualty
became fully known. At this point, Naval Special Warfare
Development Group and Special Operations Command teamed with
Navy Casualty, and together trained CACOs and command
representatives notified each next of kin and provided follow-
on assistance to all the families and their authorized
beneficiaries.
The special warfare community is unfortunately well versed
in casualty assistance, and within the first 24 hours, they
established a casualty assistance and call center and created
casualty teams for each family. This command and control
structure complemented our own and provided not only an
increase in capability and capacity, but also lent their
expertise and professional insight.
To echo my colleagues, at the end of the day, we all want
the same thing: timely and compassionate care for our grieving
Gold Star families. The assistance rendered to Navy families is
professionally and compassionately conducted, always
prioritizing their needs for the acute sensitivity for the
profound grief they experience.
On behalf of Navy leadership and the men and women in the
United States Navy and their families, I thank you as well for
your commitment to these heroes of Extortion 17, and I look
forward to your questions.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you, Commander. Appreciate it.
I now recognize--I have actually some unanimous consent
requests. The first request I have is to place into the record
the statements of Mary Strange, Terry Pittman, Ida Pittman,
Charlie Strange and Doug Hamburger.
Mr. Tierney. No objection.
Mr. Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered. I also ask
unanimous consent to enter into the record DD Form 33, that was
mentioned in part of the testimony. Or 93, sorry. Without--
without objection?
Mr. Tierney. No objection.
Mr. Chaffetz. So ordered. I'll now recognize myself for 5
minutes.
Mr. Reid, without touching into the--into the classified
information, what can you tell us about why this mission was
happening and what they were trying to do, why they were
engaged in this? And, again, I recognize the limitations you
have no classified setting, but if you could set the context, I
would appreciate it.
Mr. Reid. Thank you, chairman. The objective on this night
was to capture a senior Taliban commander operating in a valley
that cuts between two main highways south of Kabul, the capital
of Afghanistan. The strategic relevance of this valley is it
provides the Taliban with a sanctuary and a jumping-off point.
Their goal is to conduct spectacular attacks in Kabul, to
terrorize Afghans that support the government and support the
coalition, and to attack our--our bases there. That's the
strategic context of this particular mission, as a part of a
broader campaign, as you know, chairman, to dismantle and
defeat these Taliban organizations throughout Afghanistan, to
allow the government forces to establish a security foothold
and transition out of U.S. combat actions, as we will at the
end of this year, into Afghans providing security.
Mr. Chaffetz. Now, one of the more troubling and
sensational stories that we have seen along the way is the idea
that upon this--the crash of the helicopter after it was shot
is that the black box was supposedly washed away in a flash
flood, which defies--I mean, it's really hard to believe. We
have talked about this, but could you please respond to that
story, because it has been out there fairly--fairly
pervasively.
Mr. Reid. Yes, Chairman. Thank you. This valley, as I said,
in--situated in between these mountains is part of a drainage
system that feeds over into the central highlands of
Afghanistan over the Uruzgan Province. The elevation in this
particular valley is around 7,000 feet, but it is a drainage
area for high mountain showers and snow melt. It's actually a
very fertile valley with a large amount of agriculture.
On the night of August 6th, as we were one day into the
recovery effort, a flash flood swept through the valley. The
aircraft, upon crashing, landed in a dry creek bed. That creek
bed filled with up to 4 feet of water very quickly during the
recovery effort, and some of the material from the crash was
washed about 100 yards downstream.
We--we have a photograph board. If we could light like up--
--
Mr. Chaffetz. If you can like that up. Sure.
Mr. Reid. --to enter that, sir, we can show the before and
after.
Mr. Chaffetz. I think we're just going to show the flash
flood.
Mr. Reid. Yes.
Mr. Chaffetz. We're not going to show the actual wreckage
itself.
The idea that the black box washed away, was there a black
box?
Mr. Reid. No, sir, not--as I indicated, there is a device
attached to the engines that records engine performance. It's--
the engines are new, in fact, the same engines that are on the
other Chinooks, the modern engines, but the airframe itself is
an analog aircraft. There is no source of digital data.
Mr. Chaffetz. There is no traditional so-called black box?
Mr. Reid. That's correct, sir.
Mr. Chaffetz. Even though there was a flash flood, and
there are other photos as well that----
Mr. Reid. Yes, sir.
Mr. Chaffetz. Publicly, this is not something we're
revealing and showing for the very first time. This is
something that has been--is out there and widely available.
Can I--Ms. Skillman, I want to talk about the ramp
ceremony, because the other point--one of the other major
points of contention as I've talked to a lot of families is
that there is a video of the service that was done in
Afghanistan. My understanding is--I have two questions about
this, two concerns. One is why it was videotaped. My
understanding is that is not what current DOD policy is. My
question is, why did that happen? Did it happen? Why did it
happen? And who was the person who was making the--who
participated in that--in that service, because there were some
very concerning comments that were made by the person who was
representing the Afghans who were killed that night.
Ms. Skillman. Sir, thank you for the question. I--I cannot
address who was speaking at--at the memorial service at that
particular ceremony in Bagram.
As we understand, the commanders conducted a memorial
service, which is within policy. We expect our commanders to do
that. And their interpretation of our policy was that the
videotape was--was allowed. However, we have just learned that
they recently re-published their policy to reflect our
considerations for the next of kin and wanting them to consent
to any videotaping of their next of kin. So their regulation
was revised in February of 2013, which we have just recently
learned, to reflect that current policy.
Mr. Chaffetz. I have more questions. My time is expired.
I'll now recognize the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr.
Tierney.
Mr. Tierney. Thank you for that.
Mr. Reid, in your written remarks, you provide a
significant amount of detail about the operation of Extortion
17 and, for instance, you mention the Navy SEAL task force and
the U.S. Army aviation group, and I quote, ``spent weeks
conducting operations nearly every other night.''
You stated the Afghan soldiers deployed with the American
Special Forces, and I quote again, ``were an essential part of
the package. They are trained to move with our forces to the
target, and when tactical conditions allow, initiate operations
by calling out enemy forces. This tactic was highly successful
over a period of years. Hundreds of operations were conducted
without firing a shot.''
You then say the rocket-propelled grenade that brought down
Extortion 17, ``left the pilot with less than one second to
identify the threat, react and maneuver the 40,000-pound loaded
helicopter. Evasive action was not possible.''
And regarding the flight route and the landing zone for
Extortion 17, you wrote, ``This information was not provided to
anyone outside the SEAL and Army aviation task force commands.
Because the mission was developed and approved after the ranger
assault had begun, there was no coordination with Afghan
officials.''
And finally you state you believe, ``the SEAL task force
employed sound tactics in planning and executing their fateful
mission, and that you do not believe the rules of engagement
restricted our forces from engaging the enemy.''
So, Mr. Reid, with all--we all believe that the downing of
Extortion 17 was a tragic loss of life, there's no doubt about
that, but how would you characterize the operation that day?
Was it hastily or poorly planned as a mission? Were the
appropriate teams and equipment used? Was the mission
compromised?
Mr. Reid. Thank you, Congressman. The mission was planned.
This particular--the SEAL mission was planned in the course of
the ranger mission, and that planning process is deliberate.
And what I mean is their role in this operation was a standby
force should there be a necessity to deploy a second force.
The way this worked at that time, they have two forces.
They have the SEALs and the rangers. And typically, every other
night, every third night, we do an operation, one would be the
lead, one would be the standby, and that was the conditions
this night. So there was always the condition and the intent to
deploy this force based on the tactical circumstance.
And as I indicated, sir, the circumstances were such that
the enemy appeared to evade the initial attack and seek
sanctuary in the valley in another location. The SEAL mission
was constituted to come in from the other direction and
intercept that Taliban leader.
We do not believe the mission was compromised. There is a
coordination process with Afghan leaders for these missions
that was put in place years prior to mitigate against claims of
civilian casualties in special operations that were not
coordinated. But on this particular event, understanding the
SEAL piece was--was done during the operation, there was no
external coordination, so there was no possibility of
information going up the chain and somehow coming back out to
the Taliban.
We believe the enemy positioned himself in that building.
Whether or not he knew anyone was coming in, he was in a very
advantageous place tactically to strike the aircraft as it
approached.
Mr. Tierney. Thank you. Thanks, Mr. Reid.
So we just talked a little bit about the concern we had for
the treatment of the--of our fallen heroes. Before the bodies
were even to reach Dover, they had a transfer ceremony at the
Bagram Airfield. That ramp ceremony was conducted to honor
those dead servicemen.
Ms. Skillman, it's my understanding that the ramp
ceremonies are customary, and that they're solemn and
respectful events. Can you explain why the ramp ceremony--or
what it is and why it occurred?
Ms. Skillman. Thank you, sir. I--I can't address what
happened in theater, however, that we do--commanders routinely
conduct what we would consider a memorial service for their
fallen, which is exactly what happened on that day.
Mr. Tierney. And that's, as I say, customary?
Ms. Skillman. Yes, sir, it is.
Mr. Tierney. And it's not customary generally to videotape,
as you mentioned to Mr. Chaffetz's question?
Ms. Skillman. No, sir, it is not. It was our intent that
next of kin consent to any still photography or videography of
their loved ones. Primarily the PNOK is responsible for making
that consent, the Primary Next of Kin; however, there's a
misinterpretation of our policy, and we have clarified that,
and CENTCOM has recently revised their policies, as I stated
earlier.
Mr. Tierney. Good. Thank you. Yield back, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you. I now recognize the gentlewoman
from Wyoming, the vice-chair of our subcommittee, Ms. Lummis,
for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Lummis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to extend my
appreciation to the next of kin here present of our deceased
members of the military who participated in the mission that
brought down Extortion 17. We are grateful for your family's
service, for your sacrifice, and they will not be forgotten.
I--I also want to comment, Mr. Chairman, on an old 2009 HBO
movie called ``Taking Chance'' that was a documentary about a
fallen Iraq Veteran, a Marine by the name of Chance Phelps, and
it illustrated the treatment that the military provides to our
servicemen and women once they have been killed in action, and
they are--their remains are being returned to their homes.
Chance Phelps, who was the soldier who was killed and whose
return to my home State of Wyoming is illustrated in that film,
is someone whose parents I knew. My husband and Chance Phelps'
father were high school friends and I know his mother very
well, and how proud we are that the manner in which he was
treated was so well illustrated by the film and how it
accurately, we believe, depicted the manner in which and the
respect with which his remains were treated by the military. So
I want to commend the work of our military services with regard
to their very dignified and appropriately respectful treatment
of those who gave their last measure of human devotion.
I also would like to follow that up with a question. This
is for all witnesses. Did the Department follow protocol and
directions from the servicemen's Person Authorized to Direct
Disposition of human remains in the case of Extortion 17?
Colonel Devillier.
Colonel Devillier. Yes, ma'am. Thank you for that question.
In all 30 cases, the direction provided by the--the written
direction provided by the PADD was followed appropriately.
Mrs. Lummis. And are these records available to reflect
that for anyone who might wish to use the Freedom of
Information Act to obtain that information?
Colonel Devillier. Ma'am, family members can certainly
request that through FOIA, and they would be redacted according
to the FOIA rules.
Mrs. Lummis. Okay. Would anyone else care to offer
perspective on that question? Thank you.
What are some of the guidelines for reporting, recording,
notifying and assisting the next of kin whenever DOD casualties
are sustained? Once again, I would direct that question to
whoever wishes to answer. Ms. Skillman?
Ms. Skillman. Ma'am, thank you for that question. The
services are directed to provide standardized training for
their notification officers, their casualty assistance
officers, and to provide proactive support to family members.
They get--they will have a dialogue with the family members
that they are assisting and they will proactively provide them
with information regarding the circumstances surrounding the
death as soon as it becomes available and provide them regular
updates. They will also assist them with the benefits request
and reports of investigations and then continued follow on
care.
Mrs. Lummis. Did the Department follow its policies in the
case of the families of Extortion 17?
Ms. Skillman. Ma'am, from our records, there's all
indication that each of the services followed the policies and
procedures as prescribed by DOD.
Mrs. Lummis. Okay. Also for you, Ms. Skillman, how can we
improve the policies to ensure that families receive all the
casualty information to which they are legally entitled?
Ms. Skillman. Ma'am, thank you for that--that question. We
are constantly improving our program, and it's through forums
such as this, input from our family members, our veterans
service organizations, our partner agencies, such as the
Department of Veterans Affairs that we make continued
improvements.
Mrs. Lummis. Thank you. My time has expired.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank the gentlewoman. Now recognize the
gentlewoman from New York, Ms. Maloney, for 5 minutes.
Mrs. Maloney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Ranking
Member, and thank you to all the panelists. And before I ask my
question, I want to join with all of my colleagues and all the
members on this panel to acknowledge the sacrifice made by the
fallen heroes as well as the families, some of whom are here
today.
And I would like to go back, if I could, to the questioning
on the flight recorder, or the so-called black box, and I'd
like to ask Mr. Reid, and thank you for your public service. My
brother also served in the Special Forces with the Army, and
we're very proud of the work of that division for our country.
Did you--I believe you answered the question from the chairman
that there was no black box. That's correct, that there was no
black box?
Mr. Reid. Yes, ma'am, that's correct.
Mrs. Maloney. Well, I want to ask to clarify that. Do other
CH-47D's have a black box?
Mr. Reid. No, ma'am. The aircraft is not a digital--does
not have a suite of digital electronics. It has gauges, analog
gauges. Those gauges do not provide you with the ability to
withdraw, extract digital data that you could record.
Mrs. Maloney. Now, today there was a photograph of a flash
flood that we saw earlier, but I've received some
correspondence to my office that suggested that there was not a
flash flood, so I'd like to clarify that a little more. I
understand that--that the--that the plane, Extortion 17,
crashed into a creek bed. Is that correct?
Mr. Reid. Yes, ma'am, that's correct.
Mrs. Maloney. A dry creek bed. So can you explain for us
whether a flash flood occurred in that creek bed? Some people
allege that it did not occur, so could you clarify if that----
Mr. Reid. Ma'am, I can clarify, having read the report and
spoken to individuals involved and seeing the photographs and
studied the climate data, from my own assessment, I believe
it's perfectly logical and credible that a flood occurred. We
had up to 140 people at that site over the period of 4 days,
about 45 or 50 within an hour. We never left that site until
everything was recovered. Multiple accounts and, again,
photographs show the water in the creek that was not there on
the first day. It happened on the night of the 6th of August,
ma'am.
Mrs. Maloney. So did the flash flood complicate the
recovery?
Mr. Reid. It halted the efforts temporarily, because we had
to move people to higher ground. But as these occur, even in
our own desert southwest area, they--they come very quickly
without warning and they recede often just as quickly. As you
saw in the photo, though, there was still some residual water,
but the majority of the wreckage had been recovered at that
time.
Mrs. Maloney. So it did complicate it. Do you think that
going forward, we should have black boxes on CH-47D's? It's an
older plane, I understand, but should we get a black box on
them in the future?
Mr. Reid. I'm aware that the newer--I'm not an aviator, but
I'm aware of the newer platforms, as the digital platforms are
fielded, that that is a standard configuration. I've also told
that it's not technically possible for the analog aircraft to
replicate that.
Mrs. Maloney. Okay. Thank you very much.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you. I'll now recognize the gentleman
from Florida, Mr. Mica, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Mica. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Reid, this is one of the greatest losses of life that
we have had in any single incident. I guess that's correct?
Mr. Reid. This is the largest loss in Afghanistan, sir,
that's correct.
Mr. Mica. Okay. What was used? Was it an MH-47, or is there
a difference between a CH-47D or Chinook helicopter? What was
used?
Mr. Reid. The aircraft, Extortion 17, was a model of
Chinook, the D model, the delta model, CH-47.
Mr. Mica. And this was a high risk mission?
Mr. Reid. The risk assessment for the mission profile
overall as a commander's risk assessment was a high risk
mission, yes, sir.
Mr. Mica. And we put our--our men in equipment that
couldn't be protected. I chaired aviation. We developed--we
have equipment for commercial airliners that's available. We
have--I've been in Afghanistan. They only put me on certain
types of flight equipment that would protect me, particularly
from RPG's.
Why would we risk our--a high risk mission on--putting our
men on this kind of equipment? See, first I want to--I'm
already concerned you put our people at risk on equipment, and
we know we have equipment for a high risk mission where they
wouldn't be put at risk or killed. We do have that equipment,
don't we, sir?
Mr. Reid. Sir, specific to this, no.
Mr. Mica. We do not have equipment in Afghanistan that
would have allowed some protection against RPG fire, you're
telling me and this committee?
Mr. Reid. For this particular, yes, sir, that's correct.
Mr. Mica. Okay. And this was a high risk mission. Now, you
also testified that those guys, or whoever fired this, were in
some building. I'm very concerned about the people that were in
that building. Don't we assess the risk, and you just said it
was a high risk mission, that these guys are there?
I don't know if we can discuss the investigation, the post
investigation about the Afghans and how much information they
had about the mission, and if that mission placed those people
in a position where they can use those RPG's to take down a
piece of equipment that couldn't protect our people. Now, was
there a thorough investigation, in your opinion? In August 6th,
2011, were you there, were you in charge of this mission?
Mr. Reid. No, sir. I am a civilian----
Mr. Mica. Okay. Who was in charge of the mission?
Mr. Reid. U.S. Central Command, sir.
Mr. Mica. But who was the individual in charge? I think we
need to be hearing from that individual. I'd like to also find
out who made the decision. Also, I want to know about the
investigation and who was investigation--what Afghans had
information as to this mission.
Mr. Reid. Sir, no Afghans were provided information on the
mission. The eight Afghans onboard were part of our team.
Mr. Mica. And none of the Afghans were briefed in advance
as to where they were going?
Mr. Reid. Not outside that team, sir, no.
Mr. Mica. Again, I would like to see further reports and
I'd like it made part of a reference to--and if it is
classified information. But I'm very concerned, one, the right
equipment wasn't used, we put our people at risk, and also we
pass--I just do not trust the Afghanis. When I was there, I'm
telling you, they--they're--they're--everything they do I would
question, right from the president, who I think is corrupt, and
the money that we're pouring down that rat hole and then losing
lives on top of this is sinful.
But, Mr. Brown, Army Mortuary, is the mess at Arlington
cleaned up in the way we treat our--the remains of our fallen?
Are you satisfied with what has been done there? I've never
seen anything so disgusting as the mess, the misplacement, the
mistreatment, the use of human remains of our servicemen and
women as what I've learned took place at Arlington. Is that
mess cleaned up? Have you followed that?
Colonel Brown. Sir, that is outside my purview.
Mr. Mica. How long have you been there, and how long have
you been in this particular position?
Colonel Brown. Sir, I have served as a director of Army
Casualty since July of 2012.
Mr. Mica. Well, again, you are aware of the mess I am
talking about?
Colonel Brown. Yes, sir, I am.
Mr. Mica. Okay. And can you provide me the names of the
individuals and put it in the record of who was in charge of
the remains at that particular time. And then I would like a
statement from you or from someone in your office that you
believe that the situation has been cleared up, that the
remains that were misplaced or abused, that we have also taken
care of that situation. Can you provide that to the committee?
Colonel Brown. Sir, I will provide that for the record.
Mr. Mica. Thank you.
I yield back.
Mr. Chaffetz. I now recognize the gentleman from
Massachusetts, Mr. Lynch, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Lynch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Along with the other members, I want to offer my
condolences to all the families of our fallen heros. We are
deeply appreciative of all of their family service and
sacrifice.
I do, as a threshold matter, I want to acknowledge Mr.
Chairman and our ranking member, Mr. Tierney, the work that you
have done on this and both staffs, Democrat and Republican,
working together, the energy and thoroughness with which the
committee has taken great pains and sensitivity regarding the
families involved and the issues involved. This is the way
government is supposed to work, side by side.
Mr. Reid, I want to ask you about this CH-47D Chinook. You
know, I have been to Afghanistan nine times. I spent a lot of
time, you know, in contrast to the earlier gentleman's comments
that we never put, you know, people that we value on a CH-47, I
have spent a lot of time on that aircraft. So maybe they just
don't value me so much. I don't know, but I have spent a fair
amount of time. And I have also talked to the pilots and crew,
mechanics about--and they love this aircraft, the CH-47D. They
say they can perform simple maintenance. It is a very reliable
aircraft, but there have been a lot of questions in the general
press about the appropriateness of using the CH-47D, the
Chinook, in this instance, knowing the topography of the Tangi
Valley, very tight, mountains on the northern end there. It
widens out in the south.
But given the aggregate circumstances here, was this an
appropriate aircraft to use, or was this something that was
thrown together at the last minute, because that allegation has
been out there as well?
Mr. Reid. Thank you, sir. This was the appropriate aircraft
for this mission. The choice of this aircraft was tactically
sound. Other aircraft may have been used, but what could not
have been used and has been questioned was the Black Hawk. One
of the issues with the war in Afghanistan is the elevation in
the mountains, and the Chinook helicopter, which, frankly, in
my career, we did not use extensively in other conflicts, and
even in Iraq, the first time or the second time, you see mostly
Black Hawks. That is a function of the elevation.
The Chinook--D Model Chinook is the same engines as the
Special Operations model. The distinction of the Special
Operations models is the high technology, terrain-following
navigation system, and the in-flight refueling capability and
the larger fuel tanks. Beyond that, they are essentially the
same aircraft. What that means is, for certain mission
profiles, you must use the MH47. This particular tactical
mission was about a 15-mile flight on known terrain in clear
weather. The avionics capabilities of the MH47 were not
necessary to conduct this mission.
Both aircraft have the identical survivability. And if I
may clarify, sir, there is no active technology countermeasure
to defeat the RPG. The RPG is a rocket-propelled grenade. I
believe what the gentleman was referring to were for surface-
to-air missiles that have a radar signature or an active
seeker. We have countermeasures for those. We do not have
countermeasures for a ballistic rocket-propelled grenade right
now active. We are researching and trying to do that, and none
currently exists.
Mr. Lynch. I appreciate that. Let me ask you, the other
criticism that has been out there in the press is that the way
this went down, that there was a several-hour fire fight, that
there were a number of helos in the area, Apaches and also the
Ranger team that went in first. And then, when the Chinook came
in with 30 personnel on board, that it was, you know,
tactically inadvisable to have a long-term fire fight making
the insurgents in that area aware of a major operation and then
having the Chinook come in, you know, a relatively slower
aircraft and then being exposed to insurgent fire. Can you
address those allegations?
Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. Thank you. The investigating officer
did conclude that the presence of our activity in that valley
likely put the enemy on a heightened state of alert. That is
true. The tactical planning and the commanders' decisions to
mitigate against that were to approach from the opposite
direction at a low altitude.
The area was scanned by our overhead platforms. The C130
had overview of the whole battlefield, the Apaches air weapons
team scanned the LZ 1 minute prior, confirmed no enemy presence
on the LZ. The enemy that fired at Extortion 17 remained
undetected through those scans. We did not detect that enemy,
and we did not achieve, frankly, the element of surprise into
the Valley that was planned and anticipated.
Mr. Lynch. Okay. I believe my time is expired.
I thank the Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. Chaffetz. I now recognize the gentlewoman from
California, Ms. Speier.
Ms. Speier. Mr. Chairman, thank you, and thank you to all
of the members of the panel. And let me first say to the
families who are here, we know how broken your hearts are. And
we share, albeit at some distance, the same sense of loss that
you do. And there is no way that we can make you whole again,
and that is very difficult, I think, for all of us. And
hopefully, through this hearing and others, we will at least
have solace in knowing that we will take steps to make sure
that those who are serving our country in war zones have
absolutely the best protection available.
We can't foresee everything. That is why we have lost the
men and women in battle that we have, but that doesn't mean we
shouldn't redouble our efforts to try and protect them, so
thank you.
Let me ask, there have been concerns raised about the way
those fallen service members from Extortion 17 were transported
and whether they were accorded the appropriate respect. For
instance, some have raised concerns about which flags were used
to drape over the caskets of some of the fallen heros during a
ceremony at Bagram Airfield and again at the Dignified Transfer
Ceremony at Dover.
Colonel, could you provide for us an understanding about
the catastrophic nature of this crash that, from what I
understand, made it impossible in some respects to distinguish
Americans from Afghan dead. The identities of the remains of
Extortion 17 service members were not known until after they
were examined, my understanding is, by the medical examiner in
Dover following the transfer ceremony. Is that right?
Colonel Devillier. Thank you, ma'am, for your question.
That is correct. Given the trauma associated with this
incident, all of the remains were brought to Dover as believed
to be unknown, and until scientifically identified by the Armed
Forces Medical Examiner, there was no way to positively
identify these individuals.
Ms. Speier. Is that the protocol that is always used and
has always been used historically?
Colonel Devillier. Yes, ma'am, until they are
scientifically identified by the Armed Forces Medical Examiner,
every remain that comes to Dover is believed to be--they can be
visually recognized in certain instances, so every situation is
different. This particular situation was an aircraft accident.
It was very traumatic.
Ms. Speier. In hindsight, would you have handled it any
differently?
Colonel Devillier. Well, ma'am, you know, the decisions
were made at the time based upon the information they had
available. And the scientific identification process has to
occur at Dover Air Force.
Ms. Speier. I understand that. I am just trying to put
myself in the shoes of family members who were at the ceremony
watching these caskets come off without an American flag draped
over them. And, I mean, arguably maybe you would have the
Afghan flag and the American flag. I don't know what the right
answer is, but having a coffin come off that has no flag draped
on it, I am sure gave the family members a sense of pain that
was magnified by everything else that they had endured.
Colonel Devillier. Ma'am, while I was not there at the time
of the event, I can tell you that there was a lot of debate
that occurred about this on how to properly provide dignity,
honor and respect to all of the members of Extortion 17. And
there were different courses of action that were discussed with
the leadership within the Office of Secretary of Defense. And
their final determination was to flag drape 30 of the transfer
cases with American flags and 8 with the Afghan flags.
Ms. Speier. And that decision was based on what?
Ms. Skillman. Ma'am, if I may respond to that question,
again, as Colonel Devillier had stated our leadership was
presented with several courses of action after we had discussed
with our colleagues within the Service Casualty Department of
how to best honor our military service members, the U.S.
fallen, and also our coalition forces, understanding that
remains were en route to the United States, we had to make a
decision rather quickly. Again, it was a catastrophic event,
largest incident of--number of fallen in one single incident in
Afghanistan. So, based off the courses of action consult with
our military departments, OSD leadership decided that to best
honor, we would be able to display the 30 transfer cases as
best we could identify were carrying our U.S. service members
and 8, our coalition forces.
I would also emphasize that in transport to the United
States, all remains were under U.S. flag cover, as per our
policy if we cannot make the distinction. So, en route on the
aircraft, all 38 transfer cases were under U.S. flag cover.
Ms. Speier. I realize my time is expired, Mr. Chairman, if
you would just indulge me for one moment. I think it would just
be helpful to all of us if you queried the family members as to
how they perceived the return and if they had any, would have
any suggestions, just for future reference.
I yield back.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you. I will new recognize the
gentlewoman from Illinois, Ms. Kelly, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for being here, and thank you
for your service to our country and to all the Service folks in
the audience, whether retired or not, and my condolences to the
family.
Ms. Skillman, you spoke about the person authorized to
direct disposition. And I was just curious, is there special
resources or tools that are given to the families or there for
the families to help them through this time or whoever the
person is that has been appointed the PADD? Do you help them
with their decision or----
Ms. Skillman. Ma'am, a casualty assistance officer--and
each of the service departments call their assistance officers
different names, but we will refer to them as assistance
officers--are assigned to the designated person, the PADD. And
they are provided information. We do not persuade. We don't
make recommendations. We merely try to make sure that they have
all the information available to them to help them in making a
decision. They are provided with the options that are available
to them and the amounts that are allowable under law to pay for
any funeral expenses and what the government can provide for
them.
Ms. Kelly. Thank you, and I yield back.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you.
Pursuant to committee rules, members of the committee--my
apologies. I now recognize the gentleman from Vermont, Mr.
Welch, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Welch. Thank you very much.
I thank Mr. Chaffetz and Mr. Tierney for the hearing, and I
want to thank very much Mr. Rigell for being here, since he
represents so many of the soldiers who died in service to their
country.
Thank you very much. And I want to thank the families, and
I want to thank you.
How can any of us deal with the loss of a loved one? We are
all proud obviously of those who die in service of our country.
Our responsibility is to recognize that we have these Americans
who sign up and volunteer, no matter what the mission may be.
And they will report for duty when the commander in chief says,
We need you. This democracy would never work if we didn't have
citizens who were willing to put aside their own judgment when
it comes to what America's engagement should be and defer to
civilian leadership. And our responsibility here more than
anything else is to make certain that the missions that we set
America on are worthy of the willingness of our civilians who
become military people to make the ultimate sacrifice. So I say
that really out of respect to the families.
And I am going to ask one question that I know the answer
to. These families have all been affected in the same way. They
have lost a loved one, but they have all been affected in
different ways because how one deals with loss is very
personal. And some people need more information; some people
need more privacy. And the question I have of you is will you
be available to each of the families to give them every bit of
information that you can about every detail that they seek to
try to respect the needs and desires and the emotions of each
of the families? And they have different ways of trying to work
through this enormous loss. Thank you.
Ms. Skillman. Yes, sir. I think I can speak on behalf of
all of my colleagues here. We welcome the opportunity to assist
every family member with their individual needs, and we will be
more than happy to speak to the family members when they are
ready.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank the gentlemen.
Pursuant to committee rules, we do have some flexibility in
allowing colleagues who do not serve on this committee to join
us and ask questions. I would ask my colleagues for unanimous
consent to allow Mr. Rigell of Virginia and Mr. Fortenberry to
ask--each be granted 5 minutes to ask questions.
Mr. Tierney. Without objection.
Mr. Chaffetz. Without objection, so ordered.
They care deeply about this issue. I appreciate their
participation and serve on committees that are also very
relevant to this issue, so I appreciate their presence.
I now recognize Mr. Rigell for 5 minutes.
Mr. Rigell. Well, given that I do not serve on this
committee, I am especially grateful to the chairman and to all
members for the unanimous consent that was required.
And the title of the hearing is, ``Honoring the Heros of
Extortion 17,'' and my comments are provided here today in that
spirit, and I hope it honors the good men that we lost.
Even within a community that accepts the great risk that
comes with our mission, the loss of Extortion 17 was truly
tragic and profound. And so to the families that are here
today, from one American to another, I offer you my deepest
condolences.
Now, the tragedy merits and should receive, and I believe
has received, rigorous examination, unflinching examination,
looking at each and every measure to see if, indeed, we could
have done something different, because we owe that to the men
who we lost that day to honor their memory. And also we owe it
to the commanders and the warfighters that will follow them to
provide that with any lessons that could be learned to give our
warfighter every advantage in equipment, tactical procedures,
and doctrine to allow them to come home safe.
You know, each member of this body has standing here,
whether a member lost someone in their district or not, that,
as my friend and colleague, Mr. Welch, I think gracefully
offered, our district has had a disproportionate loss. And it
is both humbling and honoring to me and sobering really to
represent so many of our warfighters and their families.
It is well known, I think, that there is at least some
degree of controversy associated with the hearing itself. There
is not unanimity among the family members, and I have a duty
and the privilege of representing the Second District in
Virginia, and the families who are there overwhelmingly have
made clear that their desire would be that we did not hold the
hearing. But I am especially grateful to the chairman and to
all who have offered their remarks today that there is a deep
level of respect, and our heartfelt condolences extend, of
course, to each and every family.
I have listened carefully to the testimony that has been
offered here today. It is under oath. Each one of you, I
believe, meets the highest standard of an American patriot, and
it is not a term that I offer casually. I deeply respect your
service to our country.
Mr. Reid, I think your own experience in particular and
your intense investigation here is noteworthy. Do you have any
question whatsoever, Mr. Reid, that there was no communication
at all between Americans and Afghans that would have in any way
jeopardized or compromised that mission?
Mr. Reid. No, sir, I do not have any questions that that
information was provided. I know from those involved that this
particular 17 mission was not coordinated externally.
Mr. Rigell. Is it your testimony here today that the
aircraft that was selected for this operation was appropriate
to the mission?
Mr. Reid. Yes sir.
Mr. Rigell. The testimony that I have heard, not only today
but the classified material itself, which of course we cannot
go into, I do, and this is with deep respect for those who
actually hold a different view, I find compelling. And I would
hope that in this hearing, the fact that it was held, that it
can bring just perhaps a measure of closure on some of the
technical issues that need to have been worked through and I
think, indeed, have.
It is certainly to my satisfaction, so I thank all who are
here today. I certainly thank all who have testified. I thank
the chairman and all the members of the committee for the
opportunity to speak.
And I yield back the remainder of my time.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank the gentleman.
I now recognize the gentleman from Nebraska, Mr.
Fortenberry, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Fortenberry. Thank you, Chairman Chaffetz, for
extending me the courtesy of being able to speak here and
members of the committee as well. I am grateful for the
opportunity to participate in this difficult moment for many of
the families here but those of you as well who attend to these
families. This is difficult for all of us.
And first, let me extend my heartfelt sympathies to all who
have lost loved ones through this tragic incident and also
commend Mr. Rigell for something that I think he put very well.
I hope that the outcome of this committee provides some measure
of closure for all of those who have suffered so grievously.
In late summer of 2011, my office, I was notified that a
young man from South Sioux City, Nebraska, had been killed. His
name was John Douangdara. John was a first generation American.
His parents had fled Communism in Laos and come to the United
States in 1975 to rebuild their lives. They are good Americans.
And their son, after high school, like so many other Americans,
right after 9/11, joined the Navy. This was his fifth tour your
of duty, and John had a specialty. He had an assault dog, a
specialty with an assault dog, whose name was Bart, who
happened to be on this helicopter as well and was also killed.
The family was kind enough to ask me to speak at the
memorial service there in South Sioux City and then kind enough
again, even though this is no longer in my congressional
district because the lines have changed, to invite me back on
Memorial Day last year for the unveiling of a statute of John
and his dog Bart at the park there in South Sioux City.
Now, those of you who are in the military and those of you
who have lost a loved one, to know that all of your loved ones
are honored in a particular special way but to know John's
story as well and to have seen what I saw, the outpouring of
support from that little, small community there along the
Missouri River, called South Sioux City, should be uplifting to
all of us as Americans.
I did only have one brief question, and it is a sensitive
issue, but I would like to get a little bit more clarity on it.
You mentioned the memorial service that took place immediately
after the incident. Were there insulting remarks made by an
Afghan cleric there?
Mr. Reid. Thank you, Congressman.
Three people spoke at the ceremony that you are asking
about. It is a memorial service; the troops call it a ramp
ceremony. We make a distinction in policy between ceremonies
and services, but they call it a ramp ceremony. And they have
been doing them the whole war. And it is an important--and if I
may, I will get to that. The question was asked earlier about
why we do that. The troops are in the battlefield, and they are
continuing the fight. They don't come back to see their loved
comrades off, so that is their farewell.
They are filmed, and they are filmed for the purpose of
providing those to the families. They are filmed by that
organization at the commander's discretion at that time within
policy. As you heard the policy has been changed by CENTCOM in
2013. But they are done so for the families, and they provide
that to them as a memento of what they did down range.
Three people spoke, the commander of our Special Operations
Task Force, a U.S. military chaplain, and the third gentleman,
to get to your question, is an Afghan. He is a colonel. He is a
commander of the Afghan unit that we work with. He has been
working with us in a very trusted, close and cooperative way
for several years. I believe now--he is still there; started, I
believe, in 2009. He accounts for those special troops that are
assigned to our task force. And as I mentioned, they come out
of the other forces. We run a special selection and a vetting
and a training program for them. He is the one that spoke.
There is no other one that spoke.
I don't speak Arabic. I am not a religious scholar. We have
had people in our government listen to what he was saying. I am
told--again, not my authority--that there are verses that he is
citing. He is commemorating the fallen, all of the fallen.
There are some interpretations I have seen on the internet that
he is condemning the Americans, the infidels. Again, it is not
my expertise, but what we have been told on good authority is
he is commemorating all of our fallen and condemning the enemy.
But I understand things are subject to interpretation, sir.
That is who was speaking.
Mr. Fortenberry. And that was one of the points that I
think was particularly sensitive that was under public scrutiny
about the entire incident.
Mr. Chairman, thank you for the privilege of being with you
during this particularly difficult hearing.
Let me just conclude that I am not here on behalf of the
Douangdara family. I just got to know them, and I wanted in
some small measure to honor John's life. He was dedicated to
his community. He was a warrior. John was an American.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank the gentleman.
I thank both of you for your participation and your heart
and caring.
We will now recognize the gentlewoman from New Mexico, Ms.
Lujan Grisham, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Lujan Grisham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And I, too, very much appreciate your participation in
today's hearing and to work diligently to assure that we have
the right protocols and procedures to support the men and women
who give their lives and their families in the most
appropriate, meaningful way that we possibly can. I cannot
imagine the pain of losing a family member or a loved one in
this kind of an incident. And I offer and share with my
colleagues in giving my deepest condolences and sympathies for
the family members who are here today and all those family
members who have suffered these kinds of losses on behalf of
this country.
And I also agree that the Department of Defense has an
obligation to do absolutely everything that it possibly can do
to be open, transparent, comforting, supportive, and to do that
at the highest possible level to the family members and every
family member who has suffered through the loss of a loved one.
So I know that you have been doing this, and I want you to keep
doing it.
Walk me through the process and the protocol that the DOD
has in place now to ensure that there is direct and a sustained
line of communication between the Department of Defense Family
Liaison Offices and the family members of Americans serving in
harm's way, and what services and supports specifically are you
providing?
Ms. Skillman. Ma'am, thank you for your question. If I
understand your question, the level of support that we are
providing, the continued support that we provide to our
surviving family members?
Ms. Lujan Grisham. Correct.
Ms. Skillman. Our current policy requires, of course, that
an assistance officer, whether it is a casualty assistance
representative from the Air Force or a casualty assistance
officer from the Army or a casualty assistance calls officer
from Navy or Marine Corps, assist the family members through
the initial phase of the loss. We are also required to provide
long-term support for those family members for as long as they
want to be part of the military community. Again, we want that
family member to feel that they can be part of the military
community for as long as they need us.
Each Service has their own long-term care program. Army,
for example, can expound upon that. They have a Survivor
OutReach Services Program, and I will allow each of the
Services just to talk about their program, but that program is
in place where there are people that are available for the
family members to contact to provide that long-term care
support.
Ms. Lujan Grisham. Thank you. Can you give me some
specifics. So that is going to be counseling? Are there
therapeutic services, an opportunity for suggestions about how
to improve those processes, involvement in the services to the
highest degree possible? Can you give me some level of
specificity about the kinds of services that you are providing
to family members and loved ones?
Ms. Skillman. Yes, ma'am. Each of those long-term programs,
they want to keep them involved, especially around their
community. Some family members are not close to a military
installation, so we want to reach out to them, make sure that
they are part of the community. TAPS is an integral part of
that. We constantly work with our other agencies that provide
support to our family members, so the Marine Corps may invite
family members to TAPS events. The Army Survivor Outreach
Services may bring in--provide a session that provides some
counseling for family members; make sure that if they need
bereavement counseling, they can reach out to the Department of
Veterans Affairs or other agencies who may be providing that
level of support. But again, it is a case manager that is
assigned to that family member that knows what their specific
needs are.
Ms. Lujan Grisham. And given that each one of these
tragedies is very difficult to accept, we want to absolutely
evaluate it in the context of mitigating for the future but
also supporting men and women and, again, the family members
who suffer these kinds of tragedies, is there a process also
for being clear about things that the families want you to do
to improve and how that communication occurs? And what can
Congress be doing to ensure that all of these protocols and all
of these processes continue to sort of amend and grow and
really meet the needs of both the current situations and the
potential for future issues that should be supported in the
context of these families?
Ms. Skillman. Thank you, ma'am.
Our current program requires that we proactively provide
family members and inform them of specific Federal
entitlements. That long-term program, of course, is dependent
upon the family's needs. We have two governing bodies, the
Casualty Advisory Board and the Central Joint Mortuary Affairs
Board that meets quarterly. Those two boards that these members
represent, they are voting members on both of those boards, as
I know OSD chairs both of them. They are the governing bodies
that we ensure that we are doing things right by the family
members. At those times, we review specific cases. We may
review our policies, make recommendations where we think
legislation needs to be corrected. Where a survivor's needs are
not being met, there may be a gap in law or policy. And those
boards, we make those recommendations at that time.
Ms. Lujan Grisham. And, Mr. Chairman, with your diligence,
I have one small follow up.
And how often are those reports or suggestions, is that
annually? Do you do it quarterly, and I would suggest that we
have more access to that kind of information in this committee,
Mr. Chairman.
Ms. Skillman. Ma'am, we meet quarterly.
Ms. Lujan Grisham. But that information is available
quarterly, or do you do kind of an annual report?
Ms. Skillman. There is no reporting requirement to Congress
at this time, ma'am.
Ms. Lujan Grisham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I yield back.
Mr. Chaffetz. In consultation with the Ranking Member
Tierney, I have a series of questions. We tried to get as many
different questions from the families as possible, so I am
going to go through a series of questions here. Again, it won't
answer every question that every family member has, but I think
it is a good representation of some of their specific concerns.
First of all, I can tell you that having reviewed the
records, the pilots that were operating this aircraft are of
exceptional quality, skill and high rating, but there were some
questions about why was there no pre-assault fire laid down
before, as this helicopter was coming in. Could you help
clarify that, Mr. Reid?
Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. Thank you. The use of pre-assault fire
is a tactical decision based on conditions on the ground. The
objective of Extortion 17 was to get into the LZ and drop off
the assault force and depart the area without alerting the
enemy overtly. I think as we explained to you the other day,
the force was going to then walk closer to the target. So you
are trying to achieve surprise. Firing in advance of that in a
suppressive fire mode would be highly alerting to the enemy,
and, secondly, there was no enemy detected on the landing zone.
But let me just clarify, this is a tactical decision.
Mr. Chaffetz. Can you give us a general sense of the time
of day that this is happening?
Mr. Reid. 2:39 in the morning on the morning of August 6,
2011.
Mr. Chaffetz. One of the concerns and the questions about
the Afghans that were on this helicopter, there were some
allegations that there were Afghans on the helicopter, I should
say, and then got off, and a different group got on, which begs
an awful lot of questions. Can you help clarify that, please?
Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. Thank you. There are two groups of
Afghans assigned to this task force. One group went on the
first Target with the Rangers. The second group was on
Extortion 17. There was a mistake made after the crash to
retrieve the list of Afghans that were aboard 17. The list that
was provided was for the other squad that was with the Rangers.
This created this confusion and led to some speculation that
there was a switching out of the actual forces. That is not the
case, sir.
Mr. Chaffetz. Why were there Afghans on the plane, and what
kind of experience did we have with these people--I keep saying
plane. On the helicopter. What kind of experience did we have?
How many times, missions, had they done in the past? Was this a
new group. Can you provide some context there, please?
Mr. Reid. Yes, sir. This group of Afghans we referred to as
our partnered unit, and they have been aligned with our assault
forces going back to 2009. The purpose of these forces is to
facilitate actions on the objective, primarily by speaking with
and dealing with the enemy and the civilians on the target
because they speak the language and they know the culture.
As was mentioned earlier, the majority of these missions
since we started doing this result in what we call a tactical
callout, saying we are out here, come out. And 80 percent of
the missions, therefore, because of this capability are
accomplished without any shots being fired. So it greatly
enhances our safety. That is why they were there. How they got
there is through a very long and extensive training cycle that
lasts about 7 months. They are hand selected out of the Afghan
Army and Afghan police and their other security services. They
are vetted, trained and selected, and then aligned with our
units. They are paired with our forces. They go on a rotation
cycle, just like our forces did. Our assault forces come in for
about 90 days in cycles, and we rotate them back out. We align
the Afghans in a similar cycle, and they repeat that. These
folks, again, for the previous 2 years prior to this, every
mission we are taking them on the objective with us. This was
not a new construct.
Mr. Chaffetz. My understanding is that General Colt
conducted part of this review, and one of the questions is why
it appears there were no Afghans that were interviewed. Why
not?
Mr. Reid. Sir, I don't know specifically why no Afghans
were interviewed. The focus of his investigation and the list
of questions that the commander of CENTCOM charged him to
answer did not require him to interview others outside our
decision chain and our training and equipment chain.
Mr. Chaffetz. Perhaps you can provide some additional
clarification for the committee. That would be appreciated. I
want to go back to the ramp ceremony itself. Having been
through a number of meetings, classified, unclassified
discussions, not to belabor the point, but to my colleagues
here, I think one of the--and this is just Jason Chaffetz, just
me personally, my personal take on it. You all are the experts.
You have been doing this for years, but my sense of it is that
if you do have a situation where there are deceased Americans
and whatever country, in this case Afghanistan, my sense of it
is that there probably should be two different ceremonies.
I think if--I mean, I can't even imagine having my son or
daughter go through this, but I don't want some Afghan saying
something about my son. I don't want that. So I hope--we are
supposed to be the Oversight and Government Reform. I would
hope the Pentagon would seriously consider--honoring those
Americans is our number one priority, and of course, we are
going to honor those that also lost their lives, but do it
separately. And let's not have this mistake and this heartache
that these families feel. That is my suggestion.
And, Ms. Skillman, I need you or one of the others to help
explain, clarify, just how is it we can lay a tombstone and
then have to go back and change it. And in some cases, I think
it happened three times. Can you shed some light on this? You
are a very committed, patriotic person. It is not all on her
shoulders.
To the families and members here, she is the brave one who
is sitting here helping us.
But this is very hard for a family to go through. Can you
please shed some light on this?
Ms. Skillman. Yes, sir. The group internment, I believe, is
what you are referring to here, is that group headstone that is
at Arlington National Cemetery. Per our current policy, we may
decide if there are remains that cannot be identified to a
single individual, that we may have a group internment of those
at a specific place. Arlington is picked pretty regularly, and
then a headstone is placed on that location.
Normally we list the names of the deceased. There are some
challenges in this particular case because of our coalition
forces, and we struggled with how we would appropriately label
that headstone. And in deference to the family members, we
should have given them the opportunity to review our
suggestions. And I think that is something that we can look at
before we ever put another headstone on a group internment,
conferring with the family members of how they would like that
to be done.
Mr. Chaffetz. I appreciate that, and I have one more topic
and then if any members have additional questions.
You know, the people out there who are paying attention and
care about Extortion 17, they didn't just make this thing up
about a black box being washed away. That wasn't just something
that somebody made up out of the blue. There is some reason to
believe that the, I am not sure what his rank is, but the
commander essentially on the ground, made note of the fact that
they were looking for in black box and they couldn't find the
black box.
Again, you are telling us, Mr. Reid, that these helicopters
aren't even equipped with them, but how is it the commander
wouldn't know that.
Mr. Reid. Sir, I can't speak exactly for what the commander
thought. I have seen the transcript of where he talked about
looking for it. I would say, though, that this crash
environment is a hostile environment. We did not have complete
freedom of action, freedom of thought of what we were doing,
what we were coordinating and what we were looking for. That
team went in there in the immediate moments after the crash to
recover the fallen, as I indicated, over a period of 4 days
going through the wreckage. I don't know why they thought they
would be looking for one either, but I have spoken to our
aviation community. And they have assured me that those
helicopters are not equipped with such a device.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you, and for those on the committee, I
just want people to know that many of our men and women who are
intimately involved in this are also continuing to serve and
serve abroad.
Anyway, I appreciate it. Does any other member have
additional question or comment?
Gentlewoman from Wyoming.
Mrs. Lummis. Mr. Chairman, I simply want to comment that I
am proud of the work you have done as chairman, on this. It is
apparent that you went through this record exhaustively and
that you took to heart the concerns that certain family members
have.
I recognize that there are other families who may have felt
differently about the appropriateness of this hearing, but I
just want to commend you and thank you for your diligent regard
for the families who did have concerns so they would have an
opportunity today to hear you ask the questions that they have
had on their minds and hearts.
And I just want to thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think you
have done a very commendable thing.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you.
We recognize the gentleman from Massachusetts, Mr. Tierney.
Mr. Tierney. Thank you.
Well, I just want to add my comments that I hope the
families that have had concerns and questions have now felt
that they have had an opportunity to hear fairly broadly
answers to those concerns and that they are going to be heard
going forward and attention will be paid to their continuing
concerns and questions.
But I want to address our panelists here today. I think
nothing that I have read or heard would indicate that any of
you proceeded or any of those under your commands have
proceeded with anything but the best of intentions and caring
and concern for their colleagues with whom they either work
directly or indirectly or at least emphasize with because of
their shared commitment to this country and to each other. And
I commend all of you also for diligently going about your
investigations and your review in the same manner and also the
willingness to learn where learning is appropriate on that.
And thank you for your service and for the way that you
have represented your country well.
Mr. Chaffetz. Thank you.
As we conclude here, I want to first thank the five people
that are sitting here before us. You have a tough assignment
but probably one of the most important assignments. It is a
great opportunity, and I know you all feel that. I have chatted
with you previously. I can tell that in your demeanor and your
approach. We thank you for your service and your dedication.
Most importantly, we obviously unanimously, regardless of
party or politics or anything else, we cannot thank the men and
women enough who serve this Nation and those that have given
their lives for this Nation.
There is a different group of people in our country, and
these are the men and women who run to action. They run to the
fire fight. That is the American way. There is a certain group
of people who just do that. They just do it instinctively, and
those Americans who do that are my heroes. I thank the families
for their sacrifice. That is quite a thing that this is the
largest loss of life, but it has happened unfortunately
thousands of times. And I just hope they feel the love of this
Nation, and so I appreciate the hearing. We stand adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:47 a.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
APPENDIX
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Material Submitted for the Hearing Record
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