[House Hearing, 113 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
ADDRESSING UNUSED AND VACANT FEDERAL COURTHOUSES: A CASE STUDY IN
MIAMI-DADE, FLORIDA
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
of the
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT
AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
MARCH 8, 2013
__________
Serial No. 113-28
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.fdsys.gov
http://www.house.gov/reform
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
81-525 WASHINGTON : 2013
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing
Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC
area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC
20402-0001
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
DARRELL E. ISSA, California, Chairman
JOHN L. MICA, Florida ELIJAH E. CUMMINGS, Maryland,
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio Ranking Minority Member
JOHN J. DUNCAN, JR., Tennessee CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York
PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina ELEANOR HOLMES NORTON, District of
JIM JORDAN, Ohio Columbia
JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah JOHN F. TIERNEY, Massachusetts
TIM WALBERG, Michigan WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri
JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts
JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan JIM COOPER, Tennessee
PAUL A. GOSAR, Arizona GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
PATRICK MEEHAN, Pennsylvania JACKIE SPEIER, California
SCOTT DesJARLAIS, Tennessee MATTHEW A. CARTWRIGHT,
TREY GOWDY, South Carolina Pennsylvania
BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas MARK POCAN, Wisconsin
DOC HASTINGS, Washington TAMMY DUCKWORTH, Illinois
CYNTHIA M. LUMMIS, Wyoming ROBIN L. KELLY, Illinois
ROB WOODALL, Georgia DANNY K. DAVIS, Illinois
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky PETER WELCH, Vermont
DOUG COLLINS, Georgia TONY CARDENAS, California
MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina STEVEN A. HORSFORD, Nevada
KERRY L. BENTIVOLIO, Michigan MICHELLE LUJAN GRISHAM, New Mexico
RON DeSANTIS, Florida
Lawrence J. Brady, Staff Director
John D. Cuaderes, Deputy Staff Director
Stephen Castor, General Counsel
Linda A. Good, Chief Clerk
David Rapallo, Minority Staff Director
Subcommittee on Government Operations
JOHN L. MICA, Florida, Chairman
TIM WALBERG, Michigan GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
MICHAEL R. TURNER, Ohio Ranking Minority Member
JUSTIN AMASH, Michigan JIM COOPER, Tennessee
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky MARK POCAN, Wisconsin
MARK MEADOWS, North Carolina
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on March 8, 2013.................................... 1
WITNESSES
Mr. John Smith, Regional Commissioner, Public Building Service,
General Services Administration
Oral Statement............................................... 7
Written Statement............................................ 10
Mr. Mark L. Goldstein, Director, Physical Infrastructure Issues,
Government Accountability Office
Oral Statement............................................... 14
Written Statement............................................ 16
Mr. Eduardo J. Padron, Ph.D., President, Miami-Dade College
Oral Statement............................................... 31
Written Statement............................................ 33
APPENDIX
Letter about Dyer Courthouse and Ferguson Courthouse............. 55
Resolution No. 05/2013, a Resolution of the Board of Directors of
the Miami Downtown Development Authority....................... 57
Dade Heritage Trust, Submitted for the Record.................... 58
Letter from Dr. Eduardo J. Padron, Ph.D., President, Miami Dade
College........................................................ 59
ADDRESSING UNUSED AND VACANT FEDERAL COURTHOUSES: A CASE STUDY IN
MIAMI-DADE, FLORIDA
----------
Friday, March 8, 2013
House of Representatives
Subcommittee on Government Operations
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:45 p.m., in
Chapman Conference Room, Miami-Dade College, 300 N.E. 2nd
Avenue, Miami-Dade, Florida, Hon. John L. Mica [chairman of the
subcommittee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Mica and DeSantis.
Also Present: Representatives Ros-Lehtinen and Wilson.
Staff Present: Sharon Casey, Senior Assistant Clerk; Ashley
Callen, Professional Staff Member; Gwen D'Luzansky, Research
Analyst; Mark Marin, Director of Oversight; and Cecelia Thomas,
Minority Counsel.
Mr. Mica. I would like to welcome everyone. I am
Congressman John Mica. I have the honor and privilege of
serving as Chair of the Government Operations Subcommittee of
the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee in the
United States House of Representatives, and that committee is
the chief investigative committee in Congress.
I am pleased to be joined by my colleague, Mr. Ron
DeSantis, a member of that committee also. He is also a
Floridian, and we are delighted that he would join us here and
take time in this important oversight hearing today in Miami.
Then we have two Miamians. First, the senior member with us
today from the Miami delegation, former Chair of the Foreign
Affairs, Government Relations, International Relations,
whatever name they had there--it has changed a few times--the
very distinguished lady from Miami, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, and I
believe that before redistricting she had the community
college, and she is a distinguished alumnus of the Miami-Dade
then-community college, now college. So we are extremely
pleased that she would join us for part of this hearing, again
representing Dade County and South Florida. We are just
delighted to have her.
Then, a newer member in Congress, and we are pleased to
have her, and she is now representing, I understand, Miami-Dade
College in her congressional district, Frederica Wilson, and we
are delighted to have her.
The first order of business, too, that I would take on is
that I will ask unanimous consent that both Ms. Ros-Lehtinen
and Ms. Wilson, not being members of the panel, be allowed to
participate in this hearing today. Without objection, so
ordered. Okay.
And, of course, as the two members of the panel complete
their opening statements and also any questioning, you will be
allowed to participate fully. So, thank you.
We have three witnesses today: John Smith, the Regional
Commissioner of the Public Buildings Service at the General
Services Administration; and Mr. Mark Goldstein is Director of
Physical Infrastructure issues at the Government Accountability
Office; and coming in the door in the left lane is Dr. Eduardo
Padron, and he is the President of Miami-Dade College.
First I have to welcome him as a witness, witness today,
and also partly responsible for--well, very responsible for
today's hearing which is at Miami-Dade College. Dr. Padron,
again, we are delighted to have you both as a witness and also
as an instigator of this hearing and distinguished president of
the college.
Miami-Dade, do we still hold the title of the largest
community college in the world, I believe, as far as
population? We are very pleased to be on the campus today.
Let me also proceed with a little bit of housekeeping. The
order of business will be opening statements by members, and
then we will turn to our three witnesses for their statements.
But a little bit of business.
This is an investigations and oversight committee of
Congress, and it is customary that we swear in our witnesses,
and you all will testify today. So I would ask you to stand, if
you would, raise your right hand.
[Witnesses sworn.]
Mr. Mica. Let the record reflect that the witnesses
answered in the affirmative, and again I welcome them and thank
them for their participation.
With that preliminary introduction and swearing in of our
witnesses, I am going to take the liberty of opening with some
commentary today, and then I will turn to Mr. DeSantis and our
other two impaneled members of Congress.
So again, I thank Miami-Dade for hosting us. It wasn't that
long ago, in fact, I see August 6, 2012, that I had the
opportunity as Chairman of the Transportation and
Infrastructure Committee to hold an oversight hearing. The
Transportation Committee has a narrow scope of oversight, in
particular over the General Services Administration and some
public buildings. The committee on which I serve and have
served and the subcommittee, which we are representing, Mr.
DeSantis and I today, the Government Operations Committee, has
very broad jurisdiction and investigative power and authority
for oversight across the entire spectrum of the Federal
Government.
So that hearing was held here, and a funny thing happened
after that hearing. I got a letter from a fellow by the name of
Dr. Padron, and I must for the record an just for putting
everybody's prejudices on the table, I had the great honor of
attending Miami-Dade Community College and graduating in 1965,
but it wasn't this campus. So I had been away for some years
and was not familiar with the downtown campus. And when we
arrived, of course, you can see that the Dyer Building is right
across the street, and I never realized it until that August
6th hearing, the proximity of the Federal Building, the old
courthouse and the Miami-Dade campus.
So Dr. Padron writes me this letter and says, Congressman
Mica, thank you for holding that hearing on August 6th. We have
been trying for years to get agreement or some arrangement with
GSA to acquire or occupy that property. So I was quite stunned
to find out that we had a very willing local--and it is a
government partner, an educational institution with great value
to our community, state, and nation, again someone willing to
take on the responsibility of assuming the property.
That hearing that we held, and this hearing again will
disclose that the property has been vacant for more than five
years. It is costing $1.2 million, on average, over $6 million
just to maintain the property, and we are also told that while
it is partially maintained, it has also incurred very
significant, in the tens of millions of dollars in damage and
neglect by just sitting idle, now with mold and, again,
deterioration of a valuable public asset.
This is particularly alarming when we are closing down
essential public services, and we have here a very valuable
piece of property. The assessed value is maybe $17 million, and
we pay millions to keep a vacant building vacant. And as I
said, taxpayers are taking it in the wallet, and that is not
appropriate at any time, whether we are going bust, as we are
right now, or in the past, even when we had better revenues.
Again, the purpose of this hearing is to focus attention on
valuable Federal assets that are sitting idle. This hearing is
also going to focus some on hearing about valuable assets that
are sitting vacant and the continued problems with space
utilization, and also the issue of over-building of Federal
courthouses, and we have one of those examples next door in the
Ferguson Building, which was opened in 2008 and still has some
space to be built out, still has some courtrooms that are
under-utilized by virtue of the number of judges we have to
occupy those spaces.
The other thing that I think is important to point out is
that GSA has not had a plan to really move forward either
before they knew for some two years that the property in
question today, the Dyer Courthouse, was going to be vacated,
so actually you can add two to five, you have seven or eight
years in which there is no plan to dispose of or better utilize
or protect taxpayer assets.
Now, some people may say, well, what is Mica doing holding
another hearing down here? Sometimes it is the only way we can
get GSA's attention. We started out, the very first hearing
that I did as Chairman of the Transportation Committee was in
the Old Post Office in Washington, D.C., downtown, two blocks
from the White House, vacant. It sat vacant, the Annex next to
it, for 15 years, half the space, a huge amount of space, prime
real estate in the center of our nation's capital. We held that
hearing, for the information of those here, I believe it was in
February, and then an entire year, and we did it in--it was 32
degrees in Washington, and we did it in an empty, cold
building--it was 35 degrees there--just to get folks'
attention. But we didn't.
It took us another year and we came back, and on the
anniversary we actually held the second hearing there, and just
prior to that, days before that, GSA announced that they would
be granting private-sector participation in developing the
property where now 1,000 people may work, 400 hotel rooms, and
instead of losing $10 million a year, probably gaining $10
million a year for the taxpayer in revenues from the structure.
We did a similar hearing in two other locations, and we are
batting 500 there. This is a good week for the taxpayers
because where we held a hearing in a vacant power station
building in Georgetown, also in our nation's capital,
Georgetown, right behind the Ritz Carlton, 2.08 acres, which
sat vacant for 10 years. This week, in fact, I think yesterday
GSA announced, and maybe we can get some confirmation, an
online auction that is bringing in over $19 million for that
property. Nothing was done until the day before the hearing,
when GSA hoisted a ``For Sale'' sign over the property. But
there is some partially good news in that we have that property
moving forward.
The Cotton Exchange, another vacant property in the heart
of our nation's capital, still sits vacant. And folks, if you
think we are only talking about three or four properties, there
are approximately 13,995 more to go that are vacant.
So the extra space in the Ferguson Building that isn't used
costs the taxpayers $3.5 million for rent, operation and
maintenance. The building with extra space, actually the space
we didn't need was another $48.5 million. The problem of over-
building and under-utilization of property is not common or
unique to Miami. As I said, it is across the country. We have
more than 33 new courthouses, 32 of which were overbuilt, and
again, thousands of buildings and properties sitting vacant are
under-utilized.
A couple of weeks ago we went out to Beltsville, Maryland,
and found 7,000 acres, 500 buildings, of which 200 were vacant.
So whether it is in South Florida or Maryland, on the Capital
Beltway, this waste and inefficiency goes on.
So I look forward to hearing from GSA on where they are
today and where we hope to be tomorrow. We also look forward to
hearing from the General Accountability Office and others.
So with those opening, long remarks, but for the purpose of
providing background for the record, I am pleased to yield to
Mr. DeSantis.
Welcome, sir, and you are recognized.
Mr. DeSantis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for
holding this hearing, and thank you for your determined pursuit
of inefficiencies and waste in government. I know a lot of
taxpayers appreciate it. That is ultimately what we are doing
here today. We have a responsibility as elected officials to
serve the interests of the people who elected us and who pay
the bills for this government, the taxpayers of our country. To
see millions of dollars being spent in maintenance fees for
empty buildings, particularly at a time when we are told we
have to cut back on key services, it is something that none of
us should be satisfied with.
I am also concerned, and I hope this hearing will go into
the cumbersome process that can be involved in disposing of
some of these Federal properties. We need to start streamlining
some of this bureaucracy and red tape. I think it is paralyzing
us as a country in more ways than one. This is a small example
of that.
Then I would just note, with the millions of dollars that
we are talking about, in the grand scheme of the $3.6 trillion
of spending that the government does, it is admittedly a small
portion. But I would remind you that recently the White House
announced that they were going to suspend White House tours so
that people were not going to be able to go in and tour the
White House. It is about $18,000 a week to do that. So from
this point until the end of the year, if you multiply that out,
it is about $800,000 that the White House would supposedly be
saving by not allowing White House tours. Simply by disposing
of one of these properties, you would immediately be raising
more revenue than that would cost.
So the hundreds of examples of this across the country,
this money does matter, and it is important that we hold the
institutions of this government accountable.
So with that, Mr. Chairman, I just thank you again, and I
yield back.
Mr. Mica. Thank you, Mr. DeSantis.
Now the senior member of the delegation from South Florida,
Ms. Ros-Lehtinen.
Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. That means the old broad.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Mica. No, I did not say that. We will have to trim the
record on that one.
Ms. Ros-Lehtinen, you are recognized.
Ms. Ros-Lehtinen. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. What a
delight it is to be in Congresswoman Wilson's district. Thank
you very much for allowing us to come.
It is a pleasure to have our witnesses here, most
especially Dr. Padron, who is such a community figure for all
of South Florida and really our guiding light. Thank you for
your work and Mr. DeSantis' work in safeguarding the people's
money. This is a very valuable opportunity to talk about how we
can save taxpayers money.
As we know, as the Chairman and Ron have pointed out,
under-utilized properties are sitting idle at tremendous cost
to taxpayers and with no public benefit. The Dyer Courthouse
costs the taxpayers $1.2 million per year and nearly $6 million
since the building closed five years ago to maintain the
structure alone, is what it costs. The conveyance of Dyer will
further contribute to the renaissance that is contributing
throughout downtown Miami.
I had an opportunity to see the renaissance as I circled
around and tried to find this building. It used to be very easy
to find Miami-Dade College. But the growth here is just
incredible, and this sadly highlights just another example of
the Federal Government's gross mismanagement of Federal
property. The building sits on prime real estate in downtown
Miami. It makes no sense to continue to throw money down the
drain.
Miami-Dade College has an established track record of
success in the planning and management of facilities
development, renovation, maintenance, and operations. I know
because I worked with Dr. Padron in the GSA to transfer some
properties so that Miami-Dade could use it, and it was just a
dream come true, and every little inch of space that they could
have is making somebody's dream come true.
The courthouse has been vacant, as I said, for five years,
since the Wilkie D. Ferguson, Jr. U.S. Courthouse opened just
across the street in 2008. According to GSA, the building needs
$60 million in renovations to make it usable for other Federal
agencies or for the private sector. Currently, the courthouse
shares facilities, including utility infrastructure, parking
facilities, courtyard and tunnels with the neighboring C. Clyde
Atkins Courthouse, and GSA estimates that it will cost $10
million to separate the courthouse from the Atkins Courthouse.
I know that they have issued a request for information.
Twenty-four parties have indicated interest in the courthouse,
and I hope that this meeting that you are having today, Mr.
Chairman, will give us an opportunity of finding out what
better uses of taxpayer money we can have, rather than having
that facility drain us.
So thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, for having this
hearing, and I regret that I will not be able to stay for the
entirety as I have another engagement.
Mr. Mica. We are very pleased that you would take time and
join us today, and I know that you have a full commitment. But
again, since this is so important on your agenda, we wanted to
give you that opportunity.
And now, representing the area now and the community
college, is Representative Wilson, and we are delighted to have
her join our panel, and I would like to recognize you now for
an opening statement or comment.
Ms. Wilson. Thank you. Thank you so much, Chairman Mica,
and welcome to District 24. I am happy to have all of you here.
Dr. Padron and I have worked together for maybe 25 years now.
When I got the information that this had something to do with
impacting students at Miami-Dade College, immediately my
antennas went straight up because at Miami-Dade Community
College, at Miami-Dade County, all across the county, I have
more than 10,000 children enrolled that I personally sent to
this college. So I know the difference, and I know what will
happen when we do what we are supposed to do as a government to
improve Miami-Dade even more.
I know we cannot spread out anymore because there is no
room downtown. But that Dyer Building is there for us, and we
are going to make sure that we work closely with Mr. Smith. I
had a meeting with him this morning about another issue up
north with the FBI Building and the leasing of that, another
property in my district, and a new FBI Building that is being
built in my district at Miramar. So we have been getting
acquainted on many levels.
I just hope that with today's hearing we can say that GSA
and Miami-Dade and the government can continue to work together
until we find a resolution to this. It is going to be good for
the community, it is good for the government, and to me it is a
cost savings because the building is empty, and I am just
wondering what will happen if we sell some of these properties
and use that money to retrofit the Dyer Building for the use by
Miami-Dade Community College.
My heart is here with all of my children, and I send 1,000
a year. They are coming constantly, and all of them are boys
who ordinarily would not even have college in their portfolio.
But with the help of this entire community, we have been able
to send these young men to college, and we have some teaching
here now, Dr. Padron, that you have hired. Yes, you know the
5,000 Role Models project.
Mr. Mica, this is something that this community is proud
of, and Miami-Dade is in the heart of it with these young men.
So it is a pleasure to have you here, and it is a pleasure--you
can come as often as you want until we find a solution to this
problem, because this is important to this community. Thank
you.
Mr. Mica. Well, thank you. The next time I plan to be here,
I will be hopefully with the two representatives from South
Florida as we cut a ribbon and this building has some useful
purpose, with less cost to the taxpayers and it is not sitting
idle. We are going to do it together, and I appreciate both of
you coming for a few minutes and taking time out of your
schedules to be with us.
We have one representative of Mario Diaz-Balart's office.
Ms. Cosio, are you here? I know Mr. Diaz-Balart could not be
with us, but he sent his representative.
Are there any other representatives from any of the other
congressional offices? Senator Rubio's office? And your last
name, for the record? Higgins, Ms. Higgins, Cruz Higgins. Well,
thank you so much for the Senator and Congressman sending
representatives today and for their interest and support, too.
So with that, we also have Ms. Thomas with the minority.
I am going to ask unanimous consent that we keep the record
open for a period of two weeks for additional statements, if
that is acceptable, Ms. Thomas. We want everyone on the
committee and anyone else who has interest to submit questions.
Also, we may have some additional questions we will submit to
the witnesses. We do rather formal presentations in these
hearings, and sometimes limited in time, but we can add to the
record.
So without objection, so ordered. The record is left open
for a period of two weeks.
With that, we have again our witnesses, our three witnesses
today. We have Mr. John Smith, Regional Commissioner of the
Public Building Service at the General Services Administration.
I will recognize him first.
Our order of recognition, gentlemen, we usually give you
five minutes, and then, as I said, if you have additional
lengthy statements, documents that you want made part of the
record, just ask the Chair and we will comply with that.
So with that, we will recognize first Mr. Smith of GSA. You
are welcome and recognized.
WITNESS STATEMENTS
STATEMENT OF JOHN SMITH
Mr. Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Good afternoon,
Chairman Mica, Congressman Wilson, Congresswoman Ros-Lehtinen,
and Congressman DeSantis. My name is John Smith. I am the
Regional Commissioner for GSA's Public Building Service in the
Southeast Sunbelt Region. Thank you for the opportunity to join
you here today at Miami-Dade College to discuss the David W.
Dyer Federal Building and U.S. Courthouse.
Under new leadership, GSA has refocused on its mission of
delivering the best value in real estate acquisition and
technology services to the government and to the American
people. To meet this mission, GSA is working with agencies
across the government to improve utilization and reduce space
requirements by effectively managing our assets and pursuing
innovative real property proposals that will deliver better
space to Federal agencies.
GSA is one of more than two dozen major Federal landholding
agencies. GSA manages just 9,600 of the more than 834,000
buildings and structures reported in the Federal Real Property
Profile. Of those 9,600, GSA's Southeast Sunbelt Region is
responsible for approximately 1,600.
We have a robust asset management program to track the
utilization of our inventory, strategically invest in our
assets where needed, and aggressively dispose of unneeded
assets. As a result, we lead the market in our vacancy rates
and utilization. In the Southeast Sunbelt Region, only 1.9
percent of our portfolio is under-utilized.
When we identify vacant space in areas where there is a
continuing Federal need, GSA works aggressively to renovate and
reuse the asset to greater achieve better utilization. We also
work diligently to identify unneeded assets for disposal. Since
2005, GSA has disposed of more than 300 of our own assets,
generating proceeds of more than $116 million. In the Southeast
Sunbelt Region alone, we have disposed of 20 GSA assets since
2005, generating $20.3 million.
In addition to managing our own inventory, GSA has the
authority to dispose of most Federal real property government-
wide. In the last 10 years, GSA has disposed of more than 2,800
assets. GSA Sunbelt Region has helped to dispose of more than
300 of these.
Today the committee has chosen to discuss the historic Dyer
Courthouse, a property for which we are actively exploring
repositioning strategies. The Dyer Courthouse was constructed
in 1933 and listed in the National Register of Historic Places
in 1983. The courts and court-related activities substantially
occupied the building until the fall of 2008. In 2008, GSA
completed construction of the new Wilkie D. Ferguson U.S.
Courthouse, and tenants of the Dyer Building vacated to occupy
the newly constructed Courthouse. At that time, the initial
asset management strategy was to renovate and backfill the Dyer
for purposes of lease cost avoidance and preservation of an
historically significant asset, which is consistent with GSA's
strategic preference for owned assets over continued leasing
solutions.
GSA's lease portfolio in Miami amounts to nearly 3 million
square feet. However, GSA has since made a decision that in the
absence of capital to renovate the facility, we will explore
repositioning the Dyer Courthouse. GSA is currently exploring
ways to do so. In August of 2012, we issued a request for
information seeking ideas for redeveloping and preserving the
property. We received interest from two sources, neither of
which offered a viable option as proposed. However, we are
happy to work with Miami-Dade College and the other respondent
to see if there are ways to make their proposals more workable.
Additionally, Miami-Dade College's proposal to get the
property under a public benefit conveyance would require us to
report this property excess. In light of that interest, we are
currently preparing a due diligence for a report of excess
while assessing other potential strategies for the building.
Repositioning the courthouse will not be without
challenges, the Atkins Courthouse next door and the Dyer share
of the utility infrastructure, parking, mechanical systems and
tunnels. The preliminary cost to separate and replace these
connections exceeds $10 million. GSA is exploring all potential
repositioning strategies, and we have engaged the public and
private sector to find a strategy with the highest benefit to
the taxpayer.
We are pleased to see the interest from Miami-Dade College
and look forward to working further with them. GSA is committed
to carrying out its mission of delivering the best value in
real estate acquisition and technology services to the
government and to the American people. We continue working
aggressively to manage our own assets while pursuing other
innovative new processes to better utilize our inventory.
The Southeast Sunbelt Region is pleased to assist with
these efforts. We look forward to finding the best strategy to
reposition this property and working with the committee to
continue to utilize Federal real estate more effectively.
I welcome the opportunity to be here, and I am happy to
answer any questions.
[Prepared statement of Mr. Smith follows:]
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.001
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.002
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.003
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.004
Mr. Mica. Thank you, and we will hold questions until we
have heard from all of the witnesses.
I will next recognize John Smith. He is the Regional
Commissioner of Public Buildings at the--I am sorry. We just
finished with him, and certainly he has been recognized.
But Mark Goldstein is Director of Physical Infrastructure
Issues at the Government Accountability Office. He is our next
witness, and we welcome him, and he is recognized. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF MARK L. GOLDSTEIN
Mr. Goldstein. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman and
members of the subcommittee, I am pleased to be here today to
discuss our work on Federal courthouse construction and how it
specifically relates to Miami, Florida. Since the early 1990s,
the General Services Administration and the Federal Judiciary
have undertaken a multibillion-dollar courthouse construction
initiative that, to date, has resulted in 78 new courthouses or
annexes, with 18 additional projects in various stages of
development. This includes the Ferguson Courthouse, which was
completed in 2008, at a cost of approximately $163 million.
However, rising costs and other budget priorities have slowed
the construction program.
My testimony today discusses the Ferguson Courthouse and
the other 32 Federal courthouses completed from 2000 to March
2010, particularly whether the courthouses contain extra space
and any costs related to that space, how the actual size of
courthouses compare with the congressionally authorized size,
how courthouse space based on the Judiciary's 10-year estimates
of the number of judges compares with the actual number of
judges, and whether the level of courtroom sharing supported by
data from the Judiciary's 2008 Study of District Courtroom
Sharing could have changed the amount of space needed in these
courthouses. This testimony is primarily based on our June 2010
report on this issue, updated and informed by our current work
in this area.
Our report and recent work have provided several findings.
First, GAO found that the Ferguson Courthouse, along with the
other 32 Federal courthouses completed since 2000, include 3.56
million square feet of extra space consisting of space that was
constructed above the congressionally authorized size due to
overestimating the number of judges the courthouses would have
and without planning for courtroom sharing among judges.
Overall, this space represents about nine average-sized
courthouses. The estimated cost to construct the space was
approximately $835 million, and the annual cost to rent,
operate and maintain it is $51 million.
The Ferguson Courthouse specifically included approximately
238,000 extra square feet of space, which we estimated
increased the construction costs by $48.5 million in constant
2010 dollars, and an additional $3.5 million annually.
Second, the Ferguson Courthouse, along with 26 others
completed since 2000, exceed their congressionally authorized
size by a total of 1.7 million square feet. Specifically, the
Ferguson Courthouse exceeded its authorized size by 97,000
square feet due to judiciary and common spaces that were larger
than planned. For example, the 16 courtrooms in the Ferguson
Courthouse exceed Judiciary standards by between 7 to 17
percent. GSA did not explain to its oversight committees that
the courthouses were larger than authorized and did not
attribute any of the cost increase to this difference. However,
there is no statutory requirement for GSA to notify Congress,
its authorizing or its appropriating committees, if the size
exceeds the authorized square footage.
Third, the Ferguson Courthouse, along with 22 of the 28
courthouses whose space planning occurred at least 10 years
ago, has fewer judges than were estimated. The Judiciary
overestimated the number of judges that would be located in
these courthouses, causing them to be approximately 887,000
square feet larger than necessary, resulting in unnecessary
construction and operating costs.
In the Ferguson Courthouse, the Judiciary estimated in 2000
that it would have 33 judges in Miami by 2010; it had 27 at the
time of our report. This resulted in 57,000 extra square feet
of space, including several courtrooms that were never
finished.
Fourth, using the Judiciary's own data, GAO designed a
model for courtroom sharing which shows that there is enough
unscheduled courtroom time for substantial courtroom sharing.
Sharing could have reduced the number of courtrooms needed in
the Ferguson Courthouse and the other 21 courthouses built from
2002 to 2010 by 126 courtrooms, which is about 40 percent of
the total courtrooms constructed since 2000. It covers about
946,000 square feet. In Miami, we found that courtroom sharing
would have allowed a reduction of 12 courtrooms covering 83,000
square feet.
This raises questions about whether the Ferguson Building
needed to be constructed at all. Based on the number of judges
located in Miami, the Judiciary would only need 17 courtrooms
based on our sharing model, and there were already 29
courtrooms in the Judiciary's existing buildings before
Ferguson.
In our 2010 report, GAO recommended that GSA should
establish controls to help ensure courtrooms remain within
their authorized size and that the Judiciary should improve its
estimation of future judgeships and expand courtroom sharing
policies.
Neither the GSA nor the Judiciary fully agreed with our
recommendations, although some of these recommendations have
been implemented.
Mr. Chairman, this concludes my testimony. I would be happy
to respond to questions the subcommittee may have. Thank you.
[Prepared statement of Mr. Goldstein follows:]
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.005
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.006
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.007
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.008
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.009
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.010
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.011
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.012
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.013
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.014
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.015
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.016
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.017
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.018
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.019
Mr. Mica. Thank you, Mr. Goldstein.
Now I will recognize Dr. Padron, who is President of Miami-
Dade College.
Welcome. Thank you again, Dr. Padron, for hosting us today.
Now I would like to recognize you for your testimony.
STATEMENT OF EDUARDO J. PADRON
Mr. Padron. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Mica. You might pull that up as close as you can.
Mr. Padron. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am also happy to
welcome Representative Wilson, a good friend of the college.
And welcome to Miami-Dade College. Thank you for the
opportunity to present these remarks.
Miami-Dade College is the nation's largest institution of
higher education, welcoming more than 175,000 students every
year. Our commitment to provide access to college-level
learning throughout our community reflects the workforce
demands of a dynamic economic environment. The college's growth
dictates that we explore creative approaches, form
partnerships, and follow up on every opportunity. This includes
challenging ones like the Dyer Courthouse located adjacent to
our main building.
Miami-Dade College supports Congress' efforts to seek the
efficient utilization of federally owned vacant properties. As
you look into streamlining the Federal property disposal
process, I believe Miami-Dade College can serve as a model
demonstrating the important contribution the educational sector
can make to your efforts. This college already has a track
record of successfully conveying underutilized properties and
restoring historic buildings. They have become centers of
learning and hosted important gatherings for the benefit of our
entire community.
One such successful example of this commitment sits
adjacent to our campus, the Freedom Tower, designated as a
national historic landmark by the U.S. Department of Interior.
This building is recognized as the Ellis Island of the South.
It has served as a Federal processing center for Cuban refugees
in the 1960s and '70s, including yours truly. The Freedom Tower
is flourishing today as an educational and cultural hub. It is
a significant anchor in the economic revitalization of urban
Miami.
Given the chance, this is the type of future we envision
for the Dyer Courthouse. Before I address that issue, allow me
to briefly relate an additional success story that is even more
pertinent to our discussion. It is federally owned property
conveyed to the college in 2009. This property, a fenced-in
downtown parking lot, currently served the Bureau of Prisons
and Department of Justice employees. It is adjacent to the
Miami-Dade College New World School of the Arts.
Several years ago, we began meeting with the Bureau of
Prisons to explore our interest in this property. In developing
plans for a new structure for the property, we were able to
combine the Bureau's need for secure parking with our need to
expand capacity. Working with them and alongside our
congressional delegation, we obtained conveyance legislation.
It was approved by Congress and signed by the president in a
timely manner.
Today we are finishing the design plans for the new
building. We anticipate a groundbreaking ceremony in the very
near future.
Mr. Chairman, these Federal partners were willing to work
with us. The process was efficient and accomplished without
time-consuming layers of review and unnecessary delays. Upon
completion, this building will represent the result of a model
Federal-local partnership. Much like the Freedom Tower, it will
suggest the future that awaits the Dyer Building, if we are
given the chance.
I am aware that efforts to improve government efficiency
and generate revenue for the Treasury are important elements of
an effective Federal disposal process. However, focusing on
maximizing fair market sales should not be your only option. In
many cases, the cost of bringing a property to market exceeds
the proceeds from the sale. The option of maximizing a fair
market value sale should be weighed against the value of a
public benefit conveyance. The end result will be better
utilization of these Federal properties to the benefit of our
communities and nation.
This community benefit can be quantified. Miami-Dade
College's Commission on Economic Impact study by Economic
Modeling Specialists, Inc., its findings indicated Miami-Dade
College to be a sound investment from multiple perspectives.
The findings of this economic impact study underscore the
benefits to taxpayers should the Dyer Building become part of
the college.
Written remarks submitted to the subcommittee contain other
details from the economic impact study.
Lastly, it is important for me to note that the college is
working with the GSA. We have responded to a request for
information, sharing our plans and vision for the Dyer
Building. We have been meeting with GSA representatives as we
await their internal review process, a process that is inching
forward. We have invited the GSA administrator to visit our
downtown campus, including the Freedom Tower.
Mr. Chairman, we will continue to communicate with this
agency, our congressional delegation, with all of you on this
committee. We have also reached out to our community and
received several expressions of support for our plan. We have
received support from the Dade Heritage Trust, which
underscores our commitment to preserving the legacy of this
building. We have also received a resolution of support from
the Downtown Development Authority, recognizing the positive
impact on Miami's economy. In addition, we have received
letters of support from Chief Judge Federico Moreno, the chief
judge of the court in Miami. All these documents are here
today, and I request that they become part of the official
record.
Our message is simple. Miami-Dade College sees great
potential in conveying the Dyer Building into an educational
and cultural center. We propose a new chapter for this historic
building that will be rich in promise for all. We hope our
Federal partners will give us that chance. Thank you very much.
[Prepared statement of Mr. Padron follows:]
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.020
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.021
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.022
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.023
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.024
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.025
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.026
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.027
Mr. Mica. Well, thank you, and I thank each of our
witnesses for your participation and your testimony. As I said,
if you have additional statements, we will make them part of
the record.
Let me first turn to Mr. Smith with the GSA. We will start
some questions here.
Mr. Smith, I was surprised after the last hearing in August
to hear that the community college, Miami-Dade, I guess at that
time was Miami College, Miami-Dade College, had been in contact
with GSA about utilization of this building. Do you know how
far back that goes?
Mr. Smith. I do not.
Mr. Mica. Dr. Padron, when was your first contact with GSA
or the government in regard to this building, the Dyer
Building?
Mr. Padron. Mr. Chairman, I will have to rely on my
assistant for that specific information, and if they don't have
it, I will make sure you get it.
Mr. Mica. Was it prior to the hearing in August?
Mr. Padron. That is my understanding, of course, yes.
Mr. Mica. Yes. Okay. Most recently, according to testimony
here today, there have been discussions ongoing about possible
acquisition of the property by the community college or by
Miami-Dade College. How long do you anticipate these
discussions to take, and on what basis would you evaluate it?
Have you seen their proposal?
Mr. Smith. Sir, we saw their response to the RFI, which
requested the property through a public benefit conveyance. In
order to get through that process, we have to put it into the
disposal process, which means we have to report it excess, do
the due diligence. There is an application under the process
where the Department of the Interior is the sponsoring agency
for that. The college would work with them. Their application
was very complete, and it looks as though they have experience
working with the Department of the Interior.
Mr. Mica. I think he outlined also some conveyances that
have successfully been executed. But I am trying to get some
handle on time frame. When would you finish yours if Interior
needs to get in? You know, I did the last hearing in August,
and this is March. Any time frame?
Mr. Smith. We are in the middle of the due diligence now,
and I was told today that we have an environmental assessment
starting on Thursday. We have to still do a survey, work with
the State Historic Preservation Office to outline the covenants
and restrictions that we would move forward, no matter how we
dispose of that property.
Mr. Mica. But again, what I want to envision is that by
June or six months, I don't know, from this date, what is going
to happen in what sequence? We want to be able to hold GSA
accountable for movement. I mean, it is costing $1.2 million.
We are up to $6 million I am told by staff, and the building
continues to deteriorate, which also has a value. So I am
trying to get some time frame on this. Can you be more
specific?
Mr. Smith. We don't control all of the processes.
Mr. Mica. But the part that you control, tell me.
Mr. Smith. We control the screening process initially. Once
it is determined excess, we would have to screen it for
homeless use and then for Federal ----
Mr. Mica. So once you have the environmental--and how long
will that take?
Mr. Smith. I don't have a definite date on that.
Mr. Mica. Can you supply the committee with that
information?
Mr. Smith. We can provide you the information. We have
already contracted for that. We would have to contract for a
survey, and it may take 30 to 60 days.
Mr. Mica. Nobody knows the time frame that the survey would
take?
Mr. Smith. The survey could take--it should be pretty
quickly. The contracting leading up to it is what takes the
time.
Mr. Mica. Okay.
Mr. Goldstein. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Mica. Mr. Goldstein?
Mr. Goldstein. Just one item. The GAO several years ago
issued a report on public benefit conveyances in which we
listed quite a number of them that were very successful. We
outlined what the process was that you go through, and a number
of them, in fact, were successful to educational purposes. I
would, if you wish, sir, make that part of the record for your
committee or provide that to you.
Mr. Mica. I think that would be helpful. So there is sort
of a guideline already established?
Mr. Goldstein. We would be happy to.
Mr. Mica. All right. Thank you for advising the committee
of that.
Again, Mr. Smith, what we are trying to do is figure out
how long this is going to take or if we can expedite it. If
Congress passes legislation, directive legislation, can we
leapfrog some of that? As you know, that would be the law.
Mr. Smith. Sir, we will follow the law. It depends on what
the law says. In some cases, we still are required ----
Mr. Mica. Well, again, you want certain covenants that this
is an historic property. In talking to the college, it appears
that they have acquired property before. They obviously have
been good stewards and have complied with the requirements of
acquiring private property, I mean public property in the past
that has, again, been conveyed to another public entity. So
that is doable.
Any guesstimate as to how long before if we can, again,
provide something directive, that you can complete your part of
the paperwork or requirements? A year? Six months? Two years?
Mr. Smith. I can give you an example of Thomasville,
Georgia, where we recently conveyed a piece of property to the
Board of Education at Thomasville.
Mr. Mica. Okay.
Mr. Smith. It is still occupied by a post office, and it
was a U.S. Post Office and Federal Building. It started back in
2010 when we first got an application for that. It went through
the disposal process rather quickly. We moved the last tenant
out in 2011, and I believe early last year, probably March or
April, we had a conveyance. So this should not drag on forever.
But what I don't have ----
Mr. Mica. Okay. Are the figures that are being given to the
committee about $1.2 million and about $6 million incurred so
far just to maintain the empty building, is that correct?
Mr. Smith. I would have to check with my staff. Most of it
is utility bills. We don't have a cleaning contractor any
longer.
Mr. Mica. We are told it has cost us about $6 million to
keep it vacant to date. That is the information provided to the
committee.
Well, wait a second. We can't do that.
Mr. Smith. You are telling me it is less than that.
Sir, we will get back to you with those correct figures.
Mr. Mica. I would like the exact information for the
record, but we are told it is approaching $6 million.
[The information follows:]
Mr. Mica. The thing that is amazing about this to me, and I
think we discussed this in August, is it just didn't happen
that this building was going to become vacant. They were
actually building a courthouse next door. We knew a new
courthouse would be built. We knew that judges would be moving
from this, and we knew that this property would be vacated, did
we not, Mr. Smith?
Mr. Smith. Yes, Sir. As a matter of fact ----
Mr. Mica. We knew it, but we never had a plan. Of course,
there ought to be some way to get some interest either from the
private sector or from public entities, and certainly it would
behoove the Federal Government to work with public entities
that have an interest in a public building for doing something
with it. Once the door closed in 2007 and they went into the
other building in 2008, it is five years later, the building is
empty, and now my next question is I am told it is tens of
millions of dollars probably to clean up the mold and some of
the other damage that has been done by the property sitting
vacant. Is that correct?
Mr. Smith. There would be a cleanup cost, but I need to
correct you on the plan, sir. In 2006 we submitted a request
for design, and I believe, I am told that in 2007 we actually
received authorization for design. So the plan was always to
back fill this building with Federal tenants.
Mr. Mica. And what happened there?
Mr. Smith. We didn't receive the appropriation for that.
Mr. Mica. And what happened there?
Mr. Smith. Say again?
Mr. Mica. What happened there?
Mr. Smith. Well, all we received was authorization for
design.
Mr. Mica. It wasn't Federal judges because we have the GAO
representative here. They overbuilt this. Not only is this a
disaster, a taxpayer fiasco as far as the empty Dyer Federal
Building, but the building they built. The GAO just testified
they overbuilt the building. There is vacant space that has
never even been built out.
Was it your estimate, Mr. Goldstein, is this 57,000 extra
square feet, or more?
Mr. Goldstein. The extra square feet in Ferguson is 278,000
in three different categories, sir.
Mr. Mica. The total is how much?
Mr. Goldstein. 278,000.
Mr. Mica. Oh, my God. So we overbuilt. We have a vacant
building. We will probably have to put utilities in part of
that anyway, which is extra cost that we have incurred for at
least five years. We have courtrooms that don't have judges,
and we have an empty courthouse costing us millions of dollars
to keep empty.
Dr. Padron, do you think the community college--I am sorry.
I keep saying community college. You have to forgive me because
that was the title for so long. Miami-Dade College. Do you
believe, if you acquired this building, if we could convey it,
that you could convert the building without difficulty to your
use for the college?
Mr. Padron. Absolutely, Mr. Chairman. We wouldn't be
pursuing this if we didn't feel that way. We have a tremendous
need for space for the college for many of our programs. We
keep growing. This is a very large campus, and we feel that
that building, which is probably the most beautiful building
architecturally in Miami and an iconic building, a historic
designation, we feel that we can put it to a use that will
welcome the community into it, that will serve the purposes of
educating students, and that will complete a lot of the
facilities that we need in order to serve the community down
here.
Mr. Mica. All right. And I have some additional questions.
I want to yield right now to Ms. Wilson for questions. You are
recognized.
Ms. Wilson. Thank you, Mr. Chair. This particular issue
means a lot to me personally, and it actually means a lot to
this community. So I was happy to hear GSA give us a rundown on
what has been happening and what we can expect to happen. I
think Dr. Padron has given me some peace when he said that he
is working with the Dade Heritage Trust and the Historical
Society and the Downtown Development Authority and any other
organizations that we feel can make this a reality, because it
is important that we do this, and it is important that we make
sure that it is not repositioned in a way that we lose it. We
want this building to be ours and not for some other entity in
the process.
So I would like to get the assurance from GSA that Miami-
Dade College is the preferred tenant of this building as far as
GSA is concerned in your repositioning for new tenants and
moving. Can we say that we are a priority?
Mr. Smith. Ma'am, we look forward to working with the
college to resolve some of the issues that we have. But at this
stage, we still have to go through a process. And while the
college is amply prepared to be in line, we cannot prefer a
type of disposal at this stage. But we do need to repurpose it
so that it benefits the local community. That is one of the
actions we look at. We also have to make sure that we extract
the highest return for the government and the taxpayer, and
should that be for historic monument or education or for any
other public benefit conveyance, we will have to work with
other sponsoring agencies to see how that process works out.
But we do look forward to working with the college. They
have proven that they are problem solvers, that they can work
with the Federal Government through the labyrinth of
regulations and laws that we must comply with, and I think it
would be a very good partnership if we can continue to make
those arrangements, to talk to each other and see how we can
resolve some of these unique issues with the Dyer Courthouse.
Ms. Wilson. And just the track record of Miami-Dade is
commendable. Dr. Padron is known internationally for what he
has done here in this community with this college, and I am
looking forward to everyone else from GSA to come down so that
they can see it.
So, even though this might not be legal or is not something
that is lawful, that when they come, in their minds they will
leave here saying we have to find a way to get this done
because it is good for this community and it is good for
thousands and thousands of children who are going to be
citizens, who are going to be running this community in the
future.
So this is not a shelter for the homeless. This is not a
post office. This is something that is going to be the
betterment of this entire community and generations yet unborn
who will take advantage of a historical building that needs to
be preserved, according to everybody who has seen it. I think
we need to find a way that we can put it in some sort of
priority order.
And with that, I am going to excuse myself. Thank you so
much.
Mr. Mica. Thank you also for having us in your new district
and the great relationship you have with the college. I know
that will continue. We are going to work with you until this is
resolved.
It would be my preference, again, since Miami-Dade needs
this extra space, and it is a beautiful space. We had an
opportunity to tour it again. It could be very conducive to use
for a student population that is growing. Also, I am sure you
have some judicial programs. This is some incredible courtroom
space, and historic too, that does need to be preserved. So we
will work with you, and thank you so much, and the rest of the
delegation, for your interest and support.
Let me go back to some of the questions that I had. We are
covering today the Dyer Courthouse, and that seems to be sort
of one of the tips of the iceberg. We had the Ferguson
Courthouse built, a pretty expensive building, and it had, as
you just told me before Ms. Wilson intervened, 250,000 extra
square feet that were constructed ----
Mr. Goldstein. Two-hundred seventy-eight thousand, sir.
Mr. Mica. Oh, I am sorry. I keep getting the number wrong.
Two-hundred seventy-eight thousand square feet. And what was
the estimated extra cost to the taxpayer?
Mr. Goldstein. $48.5 million, sir.
Mr. Mica. $48.5 million. So we spent $48.5 million, and we
have extra space over there. Do you know how much the
unfinished space is?
Mr. Goldstein. The size of the two courtrooms? There are
two courtrooms that have never been finished at all, but there
are several others, of course, that are vacant, that are not
filled because of not having enough judges.
Mr. Mica. So there is plenty of future space in the
Ferguson Courthouse.
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, sir. There are several floors. I have
toured the building myself. There are several floors that are
used, quite honestly, very inefficiently, one entire floor that
is just a massive library that is almost never used, as well as
a conference room that is used less than once a month, and
those are the only two things on that floor.
There are other similar spaces in the building that are
very inefficiently used--I am sure you have been there
yourself--the whole area in which jury assembly occurs and the
multi-floor atrium of elevators used to achieve rising to the
upper floors. There was quite a lot of very inefficient space.
The atriums themselves contributed a lot to that overage.
The extra space comes in three categories, sir, that
278,000 feet of extra space I am talking about. Ninety-seven
thousand square feet of space was built about the authorization
level that Congress provided, 57,000 square feet was as a
result of poorly projecting the number of judges that would be
in place and needing courtrooms at the end of the 10-year time
frame, and 83,000 square feet was as a result of the judges in
that particular building deciding that they would not share. As
you know, part of GAO's work has been to develop a model based
on the Judiciary's own data about how judges at the District
Court level could share effectively.
Mr. Mica. So somebody has to be responsible if you build
almost 100,000 square feet of space more than Congress
authorized. Who would be the responsible party there?
Mr. Goldstein. That, sir, is mainly at GSA, because that
space for the most part, GSA is responsible for building the
building. They are the ones who control the architects. The GSA
had its own space policy in place, but it did not follow it.
Mr. Mica. In a couple of months I intend to convene another
hearing in Washington to focus on a report that the GAO is
working on. I think it is close to completion. It is entitled
``The Judiciary's Capital Planning Process For New
Courthouses.'' Mr. Goldstein, can you tell me the focus? I
don't know how far along you are in the report, the focus of
that report. Is what we are seeing here in Miami as far as
courthouses that are built that we don't need and spaces that
far exceed what Congress may have appropriated for purposes of
heaven knows what, because they are not being used, and then
leaving a vacant space behind, is this just happening in Miami,
or what will this report show?
Mr. Goldstein. We are working on two reports I think that
will be of interest to you, sir. One is the one you mentioned
on the five-year capital plan. That will be available to the
public in May. The second one I think is actually a little more
on target with the question you have just asked, and that is
looking at what is happening with the older courthouses in
America when the Judiciary decides ----
Mr. Mica. Are they both on schedule to be presented to
Congress?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, the one in May. The second one that I'm
just mentioning is in the fall, not until the fall.
Mr. Mica. Oh, okay.
Mr. Goldstein. And that will look at the status of older
courthouses like Dyer once the Judiciary has built newer space.
Mr. Mica. All right. Let's go back to some of the
underlying problem that GSA builds a courthouse, and I think
some of the criteria by which you build a courthouse is the
information provided to you by the potential tenant, in this
case the judges. Now, they had one criteria by which they
assessed the amount of space that would be needed in a
facility, which I guess was the number of judges, current and
projected, and then I am told now that that may have been
changed because, as we heard Mr. Goldstein say, there is now a
sharing space initiative, I don't know how far along.
What criteria did you use, do you know, Mr. Smith? What are
you using, so we won't have this costly fiasco of over-building
and under-utilization?
Mr. Smith. Sir, I was not in place for the design or
building of this courthouse. But you are correct that we get a
program of requirements from the courts.
Mr. Mica. And do you know what is in place now? Is it based
on number of judges and projected judges? Is it based on this
new model of what space they would actually need if they used
some commonsense sharing?
Mr. Smith. For future courtrooms or courthouses, we do have
courtroom sharing, and that is mandatory.
Mr. Mica. That is the criteria that you are using? You are
no longer using, again, the defunct method by which we got the
Ferguson--I was going to say ``monster''--the Ferguson monster
to the taxpayers? Maybe it is a nice building and all that but
----
Mr. Smith. To my knowledge, courtroom sharing is our
standard now. There should be a formula for it. We don't have
much of a construction program right now.
Mr. Mica. Have you looked at this, GAO? Tell me what your
take is.
Mr. Goldstein. Sure. Mr. Chairman, the report that we are
going to be issuing to the public in May about the five-year
capital plan will discuss the criteria that the Judiciary has
developed over the last couple of years. They have changed
their planning process. Certain things are not part of it
anymore, but they have a more elaborate approach that they do
use, and we will be presenting the findings of that report in
May.
The traditional use of caseload projections and judgeship
numbers that derive from those caseload projections, which GAO
criticized a number of years ago, is a much smaller factor
today than it was in the past.
Mr. Mica. Back to some of your testimony, Mr. Smith. You
talked about the savings on space, disposing of excess space or
properties. Can you cite again--I guess you were talking about
the Southern District. What area does that encompass?
Mr. Smith. The Southeast Sunbelt Region.
Mr. Mica. Southeast Sunbelt. How many states?
Mr. Smith. The Southeast Sunbelt Region is eight states,
Kentucky, Tennessee, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia,
Florida, Mississippi and Alabama.
Mr. Mica. And there was an estimate of how much, how many
vacant properties or buildings. Over 200 was it?
Mr. Smith. In our region, we have one property that is
under-utilized, and that is over in Columbia. It is the VA
building.
Mr. Mica. In the entire region?
Mr. Smith. In our region.
Mr. Mica. And nationally, though, I think there were 200
that were identified. Are you aware of those? I thought you
spoke to those in your testimony.
Mr. Smith. Nationally, on the list that is under-utilized
within GSA, I think we have 124. I don't know that that was in
my testimony.
Mr. Mica. And I thought you also gave us--from 2005, was it
your region, I hope it wasn't nationally, that we realized
$20.3 million from properties that were disposed?
Mr. Smith. Those were only PBS properties within our
region. The national inventory ----
Mr. Mica. From 2005 to 2011 or 2012, the total?
Mr. Smith. Right. Those are the sales that we have done. We
also have had a number of public benefit conveyances.
Mr. Mica. But the sales, $20 million. I mean, I did that
yesterday on the old power station in Georgetown.
Mr. Smith. Well, sir, this does not include all of the
actions that we took. Those were only the buildings that we
brought to public sale. Some very valuable buildings actually
go--like the Dyer building is an extremely valuable building.
It could go for a public benefit conveyance, in which case we
would not count it in the $20.3 million.
Mr. Mica. Dr. Padron, the building I talked about, I did a
hearing in Washington at the vacant power station building
behind the Ritz Carlton on some pretty valuable real estate. It
sat there for 10 years in Georgetown, downtown Washington. They
put that up for a public auction, an online auction I believe
it was, and that was I believe sold this week for around $19+
million.
If we can't get the conveyance, I don't know the
community's backing for this or the college's resources. Of
course, you are an entity of the state of Florida. There also
would be considerable cost to separate the utilities.
Certainly, you could also work out a utility sharing agreement,
because I looked at some of the utilities equipment and it has
been upgraded and it looks like a very viable system serving
both of the units. But that could be done.
So I guess a two-part question. I guess your first
preference would be a conveyance?
Mr. Padron. Absolutely.
Mr. Mica. And then secondly, you feel that you could assume
taking the building in its current condition and being
responsible for its upgrade?
Also, is it possible, Mr. Smith, to keep the title and work
out some sort of an arrangement with the community and the
college for them to acquire the property, at least for
utilization?
Mr. Smith. For an interim use, or a long-term lease?
Mr. Mica. Well, a 99-year lease. I don't know. So far we
are up to five years, and it's got to be $5 or $6 million. The
thing is sitting vacant. We are incurring costs on a vacant
building that is substantial. Again, the clock is ticking and
it is costing the taxpayers a lot of lost revenue, in my
opinion.
Can something be done? I mean, is there any creativity at
all in GSA, or do you lack flexibility because of the law? Is
there something we need to do? I want to take full
responsibility if Congress is tying your hands or the law
doesn't allow you the flexibility you need. Speak now or
forever hold your peace, as they say.
Mr. Smith. Sir, I think we have the flexibility. We just
need to make the right arrangements.
Mr. Mica. You do. Yes.
Mr. Smith. And I don't know the exact details of it, but
the college is obviously very savvy at working these, and if we
can sit down ----
Mr. Mica. It sounds like they have already done this. I
mean, they could practically write the primer on this, but the
problem is nothing happens.
I love Miami. I love coming back here. I enjoyed being here
to do the other hearing. But now this is March, and we want to
see something happen.
So I am going to ask the staff, too, let's get from GSA a
time frame of what is required for them to accomplish to get
this done, either a transfer conveyance and some sort of a
chronological order, that is one; or two, if they are not going
to be able to convey it or don't feel they have the authority
and Congress doesn't want to grant it if we have to, then do we
put it up on the market and we stop the bleeding.
But right now we are closing essential services across the
country as I am sitting here. There are government services
being shut down because we are almost bankrupt. I have this
property. We have done four properties so far, probably just
$100 million. That is peanuts, I guess, when you are sinking in
trillions, but that adds up to billions. If we have 13,995
other vacant properties or buildings or under-utilized assets,
that must add up to some real money.
We haven't gotten to the 7,000 acres and 500 buildings in
Beltsville, Maryland on the periphery of the capital that we
visited about two weeks ago. But no one has a plan. I was the
first member of Congress I think to show up, except for the
local members, since probably 1932 on the property and say what
is the plan, what are you doing with this.
Do you see this repeated throughout--well, you just have
the South, Mr. Smith. Do you see this repeated across the
country and in the territory that you have?
Mr. Smith. Well, sir, we are responsible for the PBS
properties. In my testimony we talked about 834,000 buildings
with 26 landholding agencies. The GSA has about 9,600 of those
Mr. Mica. Right.
Mr. Smith. I have about 1,600 of those.
Mr. Mica. You don't have the Agricultural Research Service
in your region?
Mr. Smith. They are in our region, but we don't manage
those properties.
Mr. Mica. Tomorrow I am going to visit 200 acres in front
of a resort. I am from Miami. I never knew we had that
property. But I was told we have over 200 Agricultural Research
Service Centers across the country, a lot of them dating back
to the 1930s, and some pretty valuable property and assets. You
can imagine the 7,000 acres, the 7,000 acres in Beltsville,
Maryland. Seven thousand acres is larger than the city of Key
West. Again, we had pictures at our hearing in Washington of
office buildings with vines growing over them. We had broken-
out windows, just vacant structure after structure. We are the
trustees for the public and letting that occur. That is just
not acceptable.
So my question to you is you believe you have the authority
to dispose, but somebody has to make a decision; is that
correct?
Mr. Smith. We have a process to follow, and some of it is
due diligence, part of it is working with other sponsoring
agencies.
Mr. Mica. Do you see anything in that process that we could
revise that would expedite this? I mean, this one is five
years, clock ticking, two years before some plans being made,
but everything being trashed because nothing is being done,
right? Yes. I mean, that is the facts.
Mr. Smith. If I had my druthers and I didn't take my
opportunity a minute ago, sir, I would ask for $60 million to
repurpose it for government because we have ----
Mr. Mica. Do we have any other vacant space down here?
Mr. Smith. We don't have much vacant space. We have 3
million square feet of lease space.
Mr. Mica. Do you include the postal facilities?
Mr. Smith. We don't.
Mr. Mica. No, you don't, and that is another one in DOD,
and we do. So we are going to be looking at those too, because
I can show you even in my district up in Central Florida, where
I don't have any Federal buildings, postal buildings that are
under-utilized or vacant, and some DOD property. So we have
assets sitting idle, not utilized. But nobody makes a decision.
That is part of this process. Mr. Denham and I crafted
legislation to create a BRAC-like process so somebody could
make a decision, and that did not pass. But we are looking at
that, and we are looking at some revisions.
But again, my question is if there is anything, even if you
don't want to put it in public testimony today, that you could
provide to the committee that would provide you with the tools
to better do this job. And I love Mr. Goldstein, he is great,
but he is sort of like--I saw the forensic school down here.
You know, he is looking at the corpses and the body and the
scene of the crime and reporting on it, and it is much too late
with Mr. Goldstein. I love Mr. Goldstein, I love GAO and what
they do. They do a great job for our committee and the various
committees. But again, they are reporting the carnage.
Mr. Goldstein. We kick a lot of dead horses.
Mr. Mica. Yes, exactly. What I am trying to do when we do
these, and if I have to come again, maybe next time I will have
to chain myself to the door of the Dyer Building to get some
attention or something, but we are going to find a way.
This could be our third victory, Dr. Padron, small
victories, but we're going to figure out some way to do this.
So again, Dr. Padron, you are willing to take this on, right?
Mr. Padron. Absolutely.
Mr. Mica. Accept conveyance. You are willing to assume
responsibility for the cleanup, fix-up and utilization, right?
You are willing to work out some arrangements for utilities. Of
course, you will probably find the most expensive solution
dealing with the Federal Government on that. God forbid we
should share anything. And then would you even consider a long-
term lease if the Federal Government had to take it back in the
future so that could be done too?
Mr. Padron. The first thing is an absolute yes. The last
one, I will have to check on that.
Mr. Mica. Okay.
Mr. Padron. The problem that we have is some state
regulations in terms of investing in properties that we don't
own. But that is definitely something we can look at.
Mr. Mica. All right. Well, we want to explore all
possibilities.
Mr. Padron. Absolutely.
Mr. Mica. If worse comes to worst and we can't get it for
Miami-Dade College, then we have to get this off the taxpayer
deficit column, out of the deficit column and into a productive
column.
Mr. Goldstein, we look forward to seeing you in Washington
with a May and a fall report.
Let me just check through this for a second here.
On June 10, 2010, President Obama issued a memorandum
entitled ``Disposing of Unneeded Federal Real Estate,'' which
directed the Office of Budget and Management to work with
agencies to produce no less than $3 billion in cost savings by
the end of fiscal year 2012.
I am going to ask Mr. Goldstein first if you know where we
are in this. Do you have any idea? Then I will ask Mr. Smith
from GSA.
Mr. Goldstein. I personally don't, sir. I think GAO has
done some work in this area. I would be happy to provide some
information for the record.
Mr. Mica. Could you provide that to the committee?
Mr. Goldstein. Be happy to.
Mr. Mica. We passed 2012. We are supposed to have $3
billion in savings, as Mr. Smith reported. Since 2005, in this
region, we have actually realized $20 million.
Mr. Smith. $20 million in sales, and we don't count the
amount of property that we give up to a 100 percent discount.
Mr. Mica. But we have a long way to go for the whole
country for $3 billion. All right. And do you have any
indication the whole GSA-wide for savings?
Mr. Smith. In my written testimony on page 2, it does say
that the initiative is on track to be published online next
month. I believe the OMB website will have the accumulation of
those sales, and I think it may be by agency, the actions that
were taken under the President's memorandum.
Mr. Mica. Okay. We can also get that made part of the
record.
Mr. Goldstein, the Federal Government has built 33 new
courthouses since 2000, and you gave us some indication of how
much excess space there was. Could you repeat that again? Do
you have that handy?
Mr. Goldstein. Yes, sir. We had found that between 2000 and
2010, of the 33 courthouses that were built, there was 3.56
million square feet that was overbuilt in the three categories
I mentioned: one, above authorization; two, because of
inadequate judgeship projections; and three, because of a lack
of sharing, particularly among the district judges.
Mr. Mica. One of the other things that is of concern, we do
build these new courthouses, and we have existing courthouses,
is the issue of security. The number of threats have increased,
more than doubled between 2004 and 2010 according to
information provided to our committee. Any word on how we are
meeting that Federal courthouse security problem since 2011,
Mr. Goldstein?
Mr. Goldstein. Two things, sir. One is that costs for
security have risen, obviously, considerably over the years.
Courthouses cost a lot more to build than they did in the past,
in part because of that, because you need separate circulation
patterns for the judges, for the public, and for the marshals
with their prisoners, and this includes different elevator
banks and complete circulation patterns. So naturally, that
adds significantly. We did a report several years ago that
actually looks at the rising cost and what the parameters were
within courthouses, and security was one of the largest drivers
of that cost.
More recently, the Marshals Service has taken over through
a pilot project much of the security at courthouses. As you
know, the perimeters of courthouses are protected by the
Federal Protective Service, the interiors and the judges by the
marshals. But this pilot is slowly but surely shifting that
terrain to the Marshals Service.
Mr. Mica. Okay. I noticed too in the periphery of the Dyer
Building and the Ferguson Building that the public is allowed
public access on the streets. Some of it is closed off to
vehicular traffic, but that would not need any change in
operations? Does anyone have any concern about that, Mr. Smith?
Mr. Smith. I don't have details on that, sir, but we can
get back to you.
Mr. Mica. Then again, we are looking at a public street on
one side, and now it will not be a courthouse. It will be
Miami-Dade. I don't see any barriers or barbed wire on the
other side of the street, so it would be utilized by the
college. It is adjacent to Federal properties and judicial
properties, and I think there was some concern about sealing
some access on one side that faces. Dr. Padron, that could be
resolved do you believe?
Mr. Padron. Oh, absolutely. We have had discussions when we
have toured the building about the areas that would need to be
sealed to prevent access into the adjacent courthouse, and we
have full understanding of that and are ready to work very
collaboratively to get that accomplished.
Mr. Mica. I guess we are getting towards the end here. Mr.
Smith, to what extent is GSA engaging with the judicial branch
to assist with their comprehensive real estate asset plans? I
mean, this isn't the only Federal facility, and we do have
various needs, and also disposal issues. To what extent are you
all engaging with the Judiciary?
Mr. Smith. My region is particularly engaged on that, sir.
We have about 22 non-resident courthouses that cost us money.
We don't make money on those. They are very expensive to
operate. But we also want to help the courts operate more
effectively and efficiently, and we meet with them on a monthly
basis, and we are continuing to work with them to see where we
can find efficiencies, if we can close some of these
courthouses and find other solutions to those as well.
Mr. Mica. Okay. In closing, Mr. Smith, the staff calculated
since my hearing here at the beginning of August until today it
has cost close to half a million dollars just to maintain the
vacant building down the street, the Dyer Building. The clock
is ticking. The cash register is ringing up deficit spending.
We are closing down facilities and services to the public
because we are basically on the verge of financial disruption
in the country. Do you think you can work with us on some sort
of schedule to take this one off the taxpayer most unfavored
list?
Mr. Smith. We are very anxious to do that, sir.
Mr. Mica. Okay. Well, we are counting on you. You know, I
try to do these, and we try to work with the agencies, the GSA.
We have had problems. Of course, last year they did not have a
good year, starting with the guy in the hot tub, spending money
like a wild man at the conference, nor did we have a good one
with some of the other actions by some of the folks, and many
of those people are now history, and others are trying to pick
up and do a better job in working with various new
administrators, new building commissioner and others to see if
we can assist. Part of this is motivational, and hopefully
inspirational, and maybe a little spiritual, to get GSA moving
and assist any way we can.
So we want a positive outcome, and I hope I don't have to
come again, Dr. Padron, unless it is for some conveyance
ceremony to which I might get an invite.
But I want to thank you all. Does anyone have any final
comments? Mr. Smith?
Mr. Smith. No, sir. Thank you for keeping us on the ball.
This is very important to us as well.
Mr. Mica. I am sure you enjoy this. Maybe later on you can
have some root canal work done.
Mr. Smith. This is very important to us as well.
Mr. Mica. To get even, on Monday at 7 o'clock, I will be in
the dental chair myself, so you can take some consolation in
that torture of Mr. Mica.
Mr. Goldstein?
Mr. Goldstein. I appreciate the opportunity to be here and
look forward to testifying again in May, sir.
Mr. Mica. We will continue on this. We only have, like I
said, 13,995. Much to the chagrin of folks, I am back in
Congress and can continue to do this, and will, because I think
it is important.
Dr. Padron?
Mr. Padron. Just to thank you, Mr. Chairman, for caring.
Mr. Mica. Well, thank you again, our witnesses and this
opportunity to hear about a particular situation in Miami with
the Dyer Federal Courthouse, was also Federal properties, the
Ferguson Building, other Federal assets throughout the region
and the United States that are under-utilized. This is a field
hearing and just a small, myopic view of one situation and one
instance where we have, unfortunately, poor public policy in
place and lack of action to resolve fiscal issues. When you add
them up across the country, they account for not only millions
but billions of taxpayer dollars.
So it is my intention to continue this effort. I thank
everyone for cooperating in this hearing. We do, with the
cooperation of the minority, intend to leave the record open
for a period of two weeks. We may have some additional
questions for our witnesses, and we may also have you or others
offer to the committee additional testimony that would be
included as part of the record.
Mr. Mica. There being no further business before the
Subcommittee on Government Operations, this hearing is
adjourned. Thank you.
[Whereupon, at 4:17 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.028
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.029
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.030
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.031
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.032
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 81525.033