[House Hearing, 113 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] MORTGAGE INSURANCE: COMPARING PRIVATE SECTOR AND GOVERNMENT-SUBSIDIZED APPROACHES ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON HOUSING AND INSURANCE OF THE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ MARCH 13, 2013 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services Serial No. 113-6 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 80-872 PDF WASHINGTON : 2013 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES JEB HENSARLING, Texas, Chairman GARY G. MILLER, California, Vice MAXINE WATERS, California, Ranking Chairman Member SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama, Chairman CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York Emeritus NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York PETER T. KING, New York MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina EDWARD R. ROYCE, California BRAD SHERMAN, California FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York JOHN CAMPBELL, California STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts MICHELE BACHMANN, Minnesota DAVID SCOTT, Georgia KEVIN McCARTHY, California AL GREEN, Texas STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri BILL POSEY, Florida GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin MICHAEL G. FITZPATRICK, KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota Pennsylvania ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri GARY C. PETERS, Michigan BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan JOHN C. CARNEY, Jr., Delaware SEAN P. DUFFY, Wisconsin TERRI A. SEWELL, Alabama ROBERT HURT, Virginia BILL FOSTER, Illinois MICHAEL G. GRIMM, New York DANIEL T. KILDEE, Michigan STEVE STIVERS, Ohio PATRICK MURPHY, Florida STEPHEN LEE FINCHER, Tennessee JOHN K. DELANEY, Maryland MARLIN A. STUTZMAN, Indiana KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona MICK MULVANEY, South Carolina JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois DENNY HECK, Washington DENNIS A. ROSS, Florida ROBERT PITTENGER, North Carolina ANN WAGNER, Missouri ANDY BARR, Kentucky TOM COTTON, Arkansas Shannon McGahn, Staff Director James H. Clinger, Chief Counsel Subcommittee on Housing and Insurance RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas, Chairman BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri, Vice MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts, Chairman Ranking Member EDWARD R. ROYCE, California NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York GARY G. MILLER, California EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West Virginia WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey BRAD SHERMAN, California LYNN A. WESTMORELAND, Georgia JAMES A. HIMES, Connecticut SEAN P. DUFFY, Wisconsin CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York ROBERT HURT, Virginia KYRSTEN SINEMA, Arizona STEVE STIVERS, Ohio JOYCE BEATTY, Ohio C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on: March 13, 2013............................................... 1 Appendix: March 13, 2013............................................... 43 WITNESSES Wednesday, March 13, 2013 Bazemore, Teresa Bryce, President, Radian Guaranty, Inc.......... 15 Bjurstrom, Kenneth A., Principal and Financial Consultant, Milliman....................................................... 7 Chappelle, Brian, Partner, Potomac Partners LLC.................. 11 Shapo, Nat, Partner, Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP.................. 9 Stelmach, Stephen, Senior Vice President and Research Analyst, FBR Capital Markets & Co....................................... 13 APPENDIX Prepared statements: Neugebauer, Hon. Randy....................................... 44 Bazemore, Teresa Bryce....................................... 46 Bjurstrom, Kenneth A......................................... 65 Chappelle, Brian............................................. 76 Shapo, Nat................................................... 88 Stelmach, Stephen............................................ 99 MORTGAGE INSURANCE: COMPARING PRIVATE SECTOR AND GOVERNMENT-SUBSIDIZED APPROACHES ---------- Wednesday, March 13, 2013 U.S. House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Housing and Insurance, Committee on Financial Services, Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:02 a.m., in room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Randy Neugebauer [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. Members present: Representatives Neugebauer, Luetkemeyer, Royce, Miller, Capito, Garrett, Westmoreland, Hurt, Stivers; Capuano, Velazquez, Cleaver, Sherman, Himes, Sinema, and Beatty. Ex officio present: Representative Hensarling. Also present: Representative Green. Chairman Neugebauer. Good morning. This hearing of the Housing and Insurance Subcommittee will come to order. By mutual agreement, we will have opening statements, about 10 minutes on each side, as previously agreed. And there may be members of the full Financial Services Committee who want to participate in this hearing today, so I ask unanimous consent that members of the Financial Services Committee who are not members of the subcommittee and who have joined us today will be entitled to participate. Without objection, it is so ordered. This is our third hearing that we have done on FHA. And the reason we have had so many hearings is that FHA is an important component of the housing and the finance markets in this country. And they have become a larger and larger portion of the business, in controlling over 50 percent, for example, of the mortgage insurance premium in this country. This is no small insurance company. This insurance company has over a trillion dollars worth of business on the books. What does that mean? It means that because it is a government- backed entity, the taxpayers are, in fact, on the hook for over a trillion dollars worth of mortgages in this country. But the other aspect of it is that it is disturbing to find that this entity--as we have learned in previous hearings--is somewhat in financial straits. It is an entity that basically, has a negative net worth. And so, you have an over-trillion- dollar entity that is backed by the American taxpayers that has a negative net worth. Now, any other company like that would be in bankruptcy or receivership. And so, I think that this may be the most important hearing we have had so far. Because today what we are going to analyze is if FHA is, in fact, an insurance company, which they are, then are they operating like traditional insurance companies? And we are going to hear from witnesses today who will tell us a little bit about what the profile of a entity like this should look like if it were in the private sector. Why is it important that we compare them to the private sector? It is important that we compare them to the private sector because they are competing with the private sector. That is one reason. But the other reason for them to be run in a financially sound way is the fact that the taxpayers are on the hook for these mortgages. And so, we need to make sure that the people who are enjoying the benefits of having an FHA loan in this country are actually carrying their load, and that they are not actually putting the taxpayers at risk. Because for those people who don't have an FHA mortgage or have a private mortgage, they are, in fact, being penalized because they are paying their mortgage and they are paying the risk premium for having a privately-insured mortgage. But at the same time, they are at risk of also subsidizing the premium for people who have an FHA loan. So there are a number of areas where we are going to explore today. I want to make sure that we have an open and honest discussion. And one of the things that we want to make sure of is that as we move forward, we make sure that FHA is operating within what I think is the congressional intent. It has gotten to be a much bigger organization, and it is actually growing at an exponential rate. It is growing faster than it is ever grown and it is bigger than it has ever been. And the question is, is this the FHA that Congress intended, and is this FHA being run in an appropriate way for the American taxpayers? So, I look forward to the hearing, and I look forward to hearing from the witnesses today. And with that, I will yield back my time and recognize the ranking member of the subcommittee, Mr. Capuano, for 5 minutes. Mr. Capuano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing, and I certainly welcome our witnesses. I look forward to your testimony. The bottom line is, I agree with many of the things that the chairman said. The FHA, we all know, has grown. We have differences of opinion as to why it has grown and what would have happened had it not grown. I happen to believe that had it not grown at the time it did, there would be no housing market right now. Now, granted, that is past tense in 2008 and 2009 and 2010. The question is, what do we do from this point forward? From what I see, things are moving in the right direction. The FHA is slowly but surely and steadily, thoughtfully decreasing its share of the market, and private enterprise is coming back into the market the way it should. Nonetheless, I think it is fair and reasonable to ask all these questions. And also to oversee to make sure the FHA is doing what Congress wants it to do. I think all that is fine, I think it is good, and I think it is useful. And those are the aspects on which I agree with the chairman. I do have some concern, however, that a lot of these hearings are being used simply as a setup to make sure that when the time comes, private enterprise will be able to grab a larger share than they have ever had in any traditional sense of the word. We will be a little bit careful of that, only because I like the housing market that we had for 40 years. Granted, it got out of whack and we need to put it back in whack. But I don't want to go overboard and completely disincentivize the entire middle class from ever being able to purchase a home. I think that is part of the balance here. I am also a little concerned that some of the things that are happening might be used, at some point, to make a political point. For instance, as I understand the law, the FHA is required by law to access certain Treasury funds even though they don't need them. So I will be asking each witness if you think the FHA will actually need to borrow Federal dollars this fiscal year regardless of what the law says. Not access the money, because as I understand the law they have to, but do you think the FHA this year will have to access anything outside of their own funds? And if the answer is yes, you will have to explain to me why. And that is why I filed H.R. 1028, which simply repeals the section of the law that requires the FHA to access Treasury funds when they don't need them. It is a ridiculous law that I never knew existed until we hit this particular situation. I guess it is excessive. It is belt-and-suspenders, and maybe two-belts-and-two-suspenders. It is a little bit of overkill to make sure that the FHA stays whole. And I think it is unnecessary and inappropriate. But nonetheless, we will see if some of my colleagues will help pass that bill to get the FHA on the footing that it deserves and to not jeopardize taxpayer dollars unless it is absolutely necessary. So I look forward to your testimony today, and I look forward to making sure, together with the chairman and other members, that the FHA is doing what we wanted it to do when it was originally created. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now, the vice chairman of the subcommittee, Mr. Luetkemeyer from Missouri. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for the important salient hearing we are having today. Regardless of political ideology, there are certain facts about FHA that can't be denied: one, FHA's market share has grown considerably over time; two, FHA insures more than $1 trillion worth of mortgages on more than 7 million loans; three, FHA has the authority to draw funds directly from the U.S. Treasury; and four, FHA's Mutual Mortgage Insurance Fund, or MMIF, has a capital ratio that has fallen below the statutorily-required level of 2 percent. In fact, during Fiscal Year 2012, the capital reserve ratio fell to a negative 1.44 percent. Despite these facts, FHA's book of business continues to grow as the private market is being forced to comply with stricter regulations and standards. As someone who has spent many years in the banking and insurance industry, I respect and understand the importance of the sound tenets in lending and underwriting. And looking at the data surrounding FHA's finances, it is clear that they are not employing sound practices. What is most disturbing about this is that the taxpayers are the ultimate backstop for FHA's sloppy work. The simple truth of the matter is that FHA needs to be examined and needs to be held to the same standards, high standards, that they are currently operating under. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today, particularly about how we can return FHA to its original mission, ensure that they follow the sound tenets in lending and underwriting, and help spur growth in the private mortgage insurance market. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman, and I also want to recognize that the chairman of the full Financial Services Committee, Mr. Hensarling, has joined us today. It is good to have you in the hearing. Now, I recognize the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Cleaver, for 2 minutes. Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I do appreciate very much the fact that you have called three hearings to deal with FHA. And I think a part of this committee's benefit to the entire body is, you have been in municipal government and our ranking member came out of municipal government. And FHA has played a role since the Depression in keeping the housing market in this country sound. I am not sure I would agree that FHA is crowding out the private industry. Because when you think about it, before the housing crisis, there were 10 private mortgage insurance companies. Almost all of them went bankrupt, almost all of them. And it was at a time that we needed FHA to step in, and they did. And with recovery on its way, I think it is on the horizon. Private mortgage insurance posted their best year since the collapse in 2008. I was looking at this report from Inside Mortgage Finance that they put out, I think, on a monthly basis. Private mortgage insurance reported $175 billion in total new insurance written in 2012, more than doubling the amount of the business they did the year before, according to Inside Mortgage. So I do think that there may be a need for us to discuss this and massage it. But the truth of the matter is, FHA is still providing a service that we desperately need, and I look forward to interacting with our panel. I yield back. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now Gary Miller, the vice chairman of the full Financial Services Committee, is recognized for 2 minutes. Mr. Miller. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't think that we can argue that we must respond to the reality the FHA wasn't prepared to have the pressure it faced during the downturn crisis. But we also face the reality that the private sector and FHA are somewhat different. FHA was driven by a mission structure. The private sector is driven by a profit structure, which is most appropriate. But let's look at fair competition. I guess the question we need to ask is, was the FHA crowding out, or was there no crowding-in by the private sector? I think that is something we don't have an answer to right now. And I think we need to look at the structure that caused the lack of crowding-in. If you look at Basel QM--QRM, we are doing everything from a structural perspective from Congress to basically make sure the private sector does not come in when they should be. And if you look at the FHA, they play a countercyclical role. They grew when the private sector didn't come in. But now it is time to look at how do we ratchet back the FHA and other groups to let the private sector come in. That is something we need to really look at. And the latest actuarial review makes it clear that FHA wasn't fully prepared for the strains they faced during the downturn. They had five increases in fees. Were they appropriately timed, could they have moved in quicker? We need to explore the mechanics of the private sector mortgage market and ask, how do we evaluate their operational structure and apply that to FHA, determine where reforms are needed, to make sure FHA can play this countercyclical role they are intended to play? But we need to respond to certain things that FHA has done to make sure they can perform their function in the future. We need to ensure their management system and technology are appropriate to do the job they are supposed to do. We need to make sure that they ensure that appropriate credit quality is preserved in the system. I have introduced legislation in the past to make sure they would do that and, for some reason, that is not occurred. And we need to demand that FHA remain adequately capitalized. There are a lot of questions and a lot of concerns I have, and I am sad to say my time has expired. I yield back. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now the gentleman from California, Mr. Sherman, is recognized for 2 minutes. Mr. Sherman. Yes, indeed, FHA's market share has grown, as the gentleman from California points out. That is FHA's mission, to step forward and play a larger role when we have a downturn, in this case the largest downturn in the housing economy in modern times. FHA has lost money on the guarantees that it made of mortgages in 2007 and 2008. Who hasn't? Very few people realized we were headed for a huge decline in home prices. And even the most carefully selected mortgages made in 2007 and 2008 had a higher than expected default rate, as people became unemployed and as they were unable to sell their homes at a profit when they were forced to sell them by unemployment or divorce or whatever. Moody's Analytics estimated that if the FHA hadn't stepped forward, then by 2010 we would have seen another 25 percent decline in home prices around this country. That would have been terrible for our economy, and even terrible for the private mortgage insurance industry. I look forward to restoring a more orderly market, one in which private mortgage insurance will be playing a bigger role, and FHA will be playing a smaller one, as we stabilize this economy and stabilize home prices. Finally, I come from a high-cost area, where $729,000 is still a middle-class family. And to have Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac shut out of that market, but the FHA in it, I think is unfair to the private mortgage insurance industry. People with those mortgages ought to be eligible for a combination of private mortgage insurance and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. I look forward to restoring the situation where Fannie and Freddie have limits at least as high as FHA. And I yield back. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now the gentleman, Mr. Westmoreland, is recognized for 2 minutes. Mr. Westmoreland. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have said this many times before: The FHA is insolvent. If FHA were a private mortgage insurance company or one of my community banks, it would have failed a long time ago. We don't want FHA to fail. We want it to do what it was created to do. Instead of focusing on fundamentals like shrinking their portfolio, reducing risk, and charging a premium that is in line with risk, FHA has advanced a policy that can only be described as out of bounds from its original intent. In fact, the administrator admitted to this committee last month that people earning over $100,000 are eligible for an FHA loan. Are these the low-income borrowers FHA is supposed to be serving? FHA is in markets and arenas that they don't need to be in. Further, Dodd-Frank, the QM, and Federal housing policies are driving businesses to FHA rather than away from the private sector. The list of FHA advantages over the private market is long, and I have fought to bring private mortgage financing and PMI back into the market. We need to reduce the 100 percent guarantee to 25 to 50 percent to be in line with the VA program and what private mortgage insurance offers. We need to reduce the loan limit to be in line with the area medium income, and tie FHA loans to the income. We need to restructure FHA premiums so that they can recapitalize their fund. And we need to be sure FHA uses the same standards for underwriting that are used in the private market. I hope Chairman Hensarling and Chairman Neugebauer work towards a conservative bill that ends these subsidies and refocuses FHA on its core mission to serve first-time and low- income borrowers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I yield back. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now the gentlewoman from Ohio, Mrs. Beatty, is recognized for 2 minutes. Mrs. Beatty. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Ranking Member. I, too, join my colleagues in looking forward to continuing to discuss FHA's financial position and, in particular, the notion of government crowding out private mortgage insurance from the residential mortgage insurance market. FHA has, indeed, become a much more significant player in the mortgage insurance market. But this reflects the fact that private mortgage insurers all but pulled out of the market during the housing downturn. According to Moody's Analytics, the FHA's response to the housing collapse prevented house prices from falling an additional 25 percent, which would have resulted in 3 million more jobs lost and a reduction in the economic output of $500 million. So I think when we discuss FHA's larger market share, let's do so with a clear understanding of what precipitated this increased growth, which is first, the FHA's fulfillment of its statutorily-defined mission to promote long-term stability in the U.S. housing market by providing countercyclical support. Second, despite playing such a critical role in the crisis, the FHA has already begun taking steps to shore up the MMIF and to also refocus its efforts towards the primary market for FHA- insured loans, first-time homeowners, and low- and middle- income borrowers. And lastly, by increasing, up front, annual fees, and making mortgage insurance premium payments due for the life of the loan, rather than just until the borrower's equity reaches a certain level, the FHA has actually strengthened the position of private mortgage insurances. And I certainly look forward to hearing from our witnesses today and continuing these hearings. I yield back my time. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentlewoman. And now the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green, is recognized for 1 minute. Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for allowing me to be a part of this subcommittee hearing. I am here to say to FHA, ``Thank God for you.'' I really do believe that FHA has been of great benefit to this country. It was formed at a time of crisis in 1934 when loans were hard to acquire, if you could acquire one at all. They were short-term, they had balloons. FHA was born out of a crisis with the intent of responding to a crisis, and that is exactly what it has done. It has responded to the ``Great Recession'' by allowing people to acquire homes who probably could not have acquired them otherwise, given that so many of these other companies have gone out of business. If not for FHA, we would be in dire straits today. I believe that FHA can do some things to improve its position, and I look forward to tweaking it, and mending it, but not ending it. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now, we will recognize our panel. Each of you will be recognized for 5 minutes. Your written statements will be made a part of the record. The panel today consists of: Mr. Ken Bjurstrom, principal and financial consultant from Milliman; Mr. Nat Shapo, a partner at Katten Muchin Rosenman; Mr. Brian Chappelle, a partner at Potomac Partners; Mr. Steve Stelmach, senior vice president and research analyst at FBR Capital Markets & Company; and Ms. Teresa Bryce Bazemore, president of Radian Guaranty, Inc. Thank you for being here today. And with that, Mr. Bjurstrom, we will recognize you for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF KENNETH A. BJURSTROM, PRINCIPAL AND FINANCIAL CONSULTANT, MILLIMAN Mr. Bjurstrom. Good morning. Chairman Neugebauer, Ranking Member Capuano, and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the privilege of appearing here today. My name is Ken Bjurstrom. I am a principal at Milliman, where my practice focuses on mortgage credit risk analysis for the mortgage insurance and mortgage banking industry, both for private and government organizations. In association with Milliman, I have conducted analyses of the private MI industry and, at the request of HUD's Inspector General, I have conducted several reviews of the actuarial report for the FHA's mutual mortgage insurance fund. During the early 1980s and again in the early 1990s, as well as over the last few years, the economy has suffered declines in home prices or increases in unemployment resulting in mortgage insurance claims. Subsequent to each of these periods of economic stress, the MMIF experienced substantial losses. For endorsement year 1981, roughly 22 out of every 100 FHA borrowers defaulted and lost their home, resulting in a mortgage insurance claim to the FHA. For endorsement years 1990 through 2003, relatively good times, the comparable rate was 8 out of 100 borrowers. And for the 2007 endorsement year, according to the FHA's MMIF actuarial report, the rate is estimated at over 30 out of every 100 FHA borrowers. All mortgage insurers are exposed to considerable risks which, in turn, require them to maintain basic disciplines, including underwriting, ratemaking, loss reserving, and also a commitment to high capital levels. Historically, insurers have generally used the size of the downpayment or loan-to-value product type in the amount of coverage in their underwriting and ratemaking approach. Relatively recently, private MIs have expanded their premium rate programs to recognize the importance of borrower credit scores and other factors. In contrast, the FHA currently utilizes fewer tools available to them to manage their insurance exposures. Without a more granular approach to ratemaking, the FHA may be encouraging adverse selection with respect to obtaining FHA mortgage insurance protection. State insurance laws require private MIs to adequately maintain multiple reserves. These reserve requirements require the MI to account for near-term expected losses, restrict shorter-term dividends, and measure the company's ability to write new business. The FHA, in contrast, does not have a comparable reserving methodology. Private MIs are generally subject to a maximum risk to capital ratio when combined with reserve requirements, require it to build reserves and surpluses during periods of economic growth so that they are in a position to cover substantial levels of claims during periods of economic downturn. The FHA, on the other hand, is not required to hold equivalent statutory reserve requirements or comparable capital requirements. FHA's Mutual Mortgage Insurance Fund is required to have an independent actuarial analysis of its economic net worth and financial soundness to determine whether it has maintained a 2 percent ratio of the economic value to its insurance in force. This ratio requirement, and the economic valuation from which it is derived, is the only gauge of FHA's ability to withstand losses. FHA's economic value calculation has several inherent weaknesses. The long-term forecast used generates significant positive economic value for the most recent endorsement years, as if these economic forecasts were certain. It considers anticipated future premiums from these books and their future losses. But these recent books are very large and have the potential for significant variability over the long-term. In contrast, private MIs do not take credit for the economic value reflected in future premiums and terms of their statutory requirements. If we were to re-look at history and forecasted FHA claim rates and the economic environments that caused them, it is clear that the FHA should establish a capital threshold that reflects a more risk-based probability of stress losses in the future. Additionally, the FHA should be allowed to establish loss reserves and account for estimated loss liabilities prior to determining its capital ratio or other assessments of its financial strength. Loss reserves are a critical part of determining the actuarial health of any insurance fund, and should be part of the MMIF capital assessment to give Congress a more accurate view as to the capital adequacy of the FHA's single-family operations. Since the early 1980s, when I began working in this industry, I have witnessed multiple economic downturns which created tremendous losses for both private MIs and government- run funds at both the State and Federal levels. It is therefore important to continue to work diligently to protect the FHA program. To that end, I recommend that the FHA evaluate and adopt many of the private MI statutory accounting provisions described above, better understand and modify their exposures to support their mission, and retain the necessary capital that is required to protect the program now and for the next economic downturn that will most definitely occur. Thank you for inviting me and for your consideration of my views. I would be pleased to answer any questions. [The prepared statement of Mr. Bjurstrom can be found on page 65 of the appendix.] Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. Mr. Shapo, you are recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF NAT SHAPO, PARTNER, KATTEN MUCHIN ROSENMAN LLP Mr. Shapo. Thank you, and good morning, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Capuano, and members of the subcommittee. Thank you for inviting me. It is a privilege to participate as the subcommittee performs its important work. My name is Nat Shapo. I am a partner at Katten Muchin Rosenman LLP in Chicago. I practice mainly in insurance, litigation, and regulatory matters. I am also a lecturer at the University of Chicago law school, where I teach insurance law. And I was privileged to be the Illinois Insurance Commissioner from 1999 to 2003. At the subcommittee's request, I have analyzed the FHA Mutual Mortgage Insurance Fund from a regulatory perspective. From what I found, based on GAO audits and other public record, the fund appears to have been, and to be, operating and overseeing in a manner that conflicts with basic regulatory principles. Insurance is regulated in the United States primarily by the States per the Congress' direction in the McCarran-Ferguson Act. The State insurance department is generally divided into solvency regulation and market practice oversight. The former, solvency regulation, is usually looked at as the most important function of insurance regulation, since financial impairment jeopardizes the carrier's ability to carry through on the heart of the insurance contract, the promise to pay. Nearly a century ago, the Supreme Court nicely explained the key place that solvency regulation has in protecting the well-being of the common fund that all consumers rely upon. Insurance companies, the court said, create a fund of assurance and credit, with companies becoming the depositories of the money of the insured, possessing great power thereby and are thereby charged with great responsibility. How necessary their solvency is, is manifest. With respect to solvency regulation, requiring capitalization commensurate with risk is a basic pillar. Thus, a common requirement in the States, based on a National Association of Insurance Commissioners model, is a risk to capital ratio limiting outstanding liability on the insurer's aggregate policies to 25 times its capital surplus and contingents in reserve. In other words, the carrier must have real money, at least 4 percent of its liabilities, on hand. The 4 percent capital to risk ratio is backed up in the NAIC model. If it is pierced, the carrier may not write new business. This protects both current and potential new consumers by preventing an impairment from becoming a catastrophe. The FHA fund's risk to capital ratio of 50 to one, which means capital in the amount of 2 percent of exposure, is half as stringent as the NAIC model's 4 percent. Certainly, the weaker standard is relevant. But my bigger concern is that the standard, at whichever level, is not enforced, as a regulatory requirement, in practice. The GAO found that the capital ratio fell from about 7 percent in 2006 to 3 percent in 2008, below 2 percent in 2009. It is not expected to reach 2 percent again until 2017, meaning it will likely be below its statutorily-mandated level for 8 years. This extended failure to meet the legal minimum is exacerbated by the FHA's practice of attempting to write its way out of trouble. An impaired insurer is generally not allowed to write new business absent very stringent additional requirements. But FHA's exposure has ballooned, according to the GAO. In 2006, FHA insured approximately 4.5 percent. Today, it insures at its peak, though in 2009, it insured 32.6 percent. Today, we are still over a quarter. The results have been predictable, and exactly what insurance regulation is designed to prevent; the deepening of the crisis, and a full-blown negative balance sheet. GAO explained that in 2012, the capital ratio fell below zero, to negative 1.44 percent. The fund is expected to be in negative balance for at least 2 years. A private insurer in such insolvent condition would be put in liquidation. The commonly-adopted NAIC hazardous financial condition regulation establishes a number of other different standards that would be triggered by an insurer in the fund's condition, which I have covered in my written testimony. Adverse findings in audits--we have seen that with the GAO. An insurer's operating loss in a 12-month period greater than 50 percent of the insurer's remaining surplus. The fund has no surplus. The insurer growing so rapidly that it lacks adequate financial capacity. The fund's increased market share by 700 percent, while turning into a balance sheet insolvency. So the fund would be in violation of those basic standards of the NAIC hazardous financial condition regulation. I was asked to provide a regulatory analysis, and the ultimate policy issues here are well beyond my proverbial pay grade so I will only briefly comment. Insurance is complicated, but its basics are straightforward. The Supreme Court explained that Congress understood the business of insurance to be underwriting the and spreading of risk. The fund operates apart from the basic rule. It does not evaluated hazards according to actuarial principles or correlated premiums-to-risk. The capital in this common fund does not support its exposure. Government intervention in the distribution of risk never ends well, and does not ultimately protect consumers that it is meant to. We have seen that in the New Jersey auto market and other places with heavy government intervention. By doing so, FEIA makes obtaining business and attracting capital, the core functions of any business, more difficult for carriers, distorts the entire market as a whole, and deepens the spirals already in place both at the FHA and among private carriers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [The prepared statement of Mr. Shapo can be found on page 88 of the appendix.] Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now, Mr. Chappelle, you are recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF BRIAN CHAPPELLE, PARTNER, POTOMAC PARTNERS LLC Mr. Chappelle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Capuano, and members of the subcommittee. I am Brian Chappelle with Potomac Partners. I believe that a strong and viable private mortgage insurance industry is an integral part of the mortgage market. I also believe that the MIs' challenges today have little to do with FHA. The MIs benefited from FHA's support of the mortgage market at the height of the crisis in 2008. By helping to stabilize home prices, FHA reduced MI losses. However, as the FHA audit shows, FHA will incur significant losses on loans made during that period. The good news is that loans made since then have strengthened the fund. FHA has taken numerous steps to shore up its reserves. Its rate increases are also pushing more business back to the MIs. FHA has raised its premium 5 times, with another coming next month. Even an MI said, in its annual earnings filing just last week, ``We believe that the FHA's current premium pricing has allowed us to be more competitive with the FHA than in the recent past for loans with high FICO credit scores.'' And that was before the FHA's upcoming increase. For all the attention given FHA's mortgage limits, the data shows that FHA activity is concentrated in lower-priced homes. FHA's median loan amount was $147,000 in 2011. Seventy-one percent of FHA loans insured in 2012 were below $200,000; $200,000 is below the base loan limit in effect prior to the Economic Stimulus Act of 2008. Over 80 percent of FHA loans insured last year were also below the pre-stimulus limit when high-cost areas were included. FHA did more loans under $50,000 than over $500,000. FHA did twice as many loans under $100,000 as they did over $300,000. Concerning borrower income, the FHA median was $56,000 in 2011. FHA's median was only 12 percent above the U.S. median family income that year. That is lower than FHA's borrower profile in 1971, 40 years ago, when the FHA median was 22 percent higher than the U.S. median. There are three ways that FHA achieves the balance between its mission, its responsibility to the taxpayer, while also minimizing overlap with the private sector. First, FHA's premium structure reduces overlap. Unlike many types of insurance, FHA charges all borrowers the same premium regardless of credit characteristics, thereby helping the private insurers to compete for better-quality loans. Second, FHA uses reasonable mortgage limits to minimize overlap. As the above data showed, high-balance loans are a very small part of FHA's business, or the MIs problem. However, some high-balance loans can help FHA cushion taxpayer risk because every audit I can remember has said higher-balance loans perform better. Third, FHA provides 100 percent insurance coverage. A 1997 GAO audit concluded, ``Reducing coverage would increase borrower costs and reduce borrower eligibility.'' In addition, lenders are now taking the unprecedented step of adding their own underwriting requirements on top of FHA's. Reducing coverage would exacerbate this current problem. There is a more immediate problem facing the mortgage market today, however. As Federal Reserve Governor Duke noted in a speech last Friday, purchase mortgages hit their lowest level since the early 1990s. That is 22 percent fewer purchases than in 2008 at the height of the crisis. Younger home buyers are being particularly hard hit by tight credit. According to Governor Duke, from late 2009 to 2011, the number of first-time home buyers under 40 was half of what it was in the early 2000s. She added that since 2007, there has been a fall of about 90 percent for borrowers with credit scores between 620 and 680. At the same time, about 30 percent of all purchase transactions in 2012 had home buyers paying cash. They did not need or want a mortgage. For the first time I also can remember, all cash sales are now the number one source for home purchases in our country, ahead of FHA, Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. In other words, the private sector has returned to the housing market, just not to the mortgage market. I am worried that we may well be moving backwards towards the housing market where homeownership is limited to those who are wealthy or have wealthy parents, and a dwindling few whose credit is stellar enough to qualify for a mortgage. I believe that we must first solve this challenge before worrying about carving up a depressed purchase mortgage market. The fundamental problem with the current market today is not that FHA is doing too many purchase loans, but that, combined, FHA, the private mortgage insurers, and the GSEs are not backing enough of them. Thank you very much, and I look forward to answering any questions you may have. [The prepared statement of Mr. Chappelle can be found on page 76 of the appendix.] Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. Mr. Stelmach, you are recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF STEPHEN STELMACH, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT AND RESEARCH ANALYST, FBR CAPITAL MARKETS & CO. Mr. Stelmach. Good morning. My name is Steve Stelmach. I am senior vice president at FBR Capital Markets, an investment banking firm headquartered in Arlington, Virginia. I would like to thank Chairman Neugebauer and Ranking Member Capuano for my invitation today. Among the issues that the subcommittee asked to be addressed today is the impact of the FHA's policies and practices on investments in private mortgage insurance. This is a topic for which I can offer a unique perspective. In my role at FBR Capital Markets, I have 10 years of experience in advising our clients on the merits and risks of investing in particular industries and companies My particular area of focus is U.S. housing, mortgage finance, and, relevant to the subcommittee, mortgage insurance. FBR's clients are pension funds, endowments, mutual funds, and asset managers in the United States and in Europe. Collectively, these clients match assets in the trillions of dollars. Having participated in countless conversations with these institutional investors over many years, I can attest that the actions of the FHA have a direct influence on investor decisions to allocate or not allocate capital to the private mortgage insurance industry. Today, I would like to address three main topics on which investors tend to focus: first, how the FHA has historically crowded out private capital; second, how recent changes at the FHA has actually encouraged new capital into the market; and third, how FHA policy changes can have the impact of expanding mortgage availability. First, on the issue of crowding out private capital, the FHA has a fixed insurance premium structure, which means the borrowers are all charged the same insurance premium. Until recently, that premium was at or below rates charged by private mortgage insurers. This premium, combined with the downpayment requirements, are less than those required by private mortgage insurance, higher FHA seller concessions, lower perceived repurchase risks for defaulted loans, and higher gain on sale margins pushed lenders and borrowers into the FHA product. With capacity constraints within the mortgage origination channels, uncertainty of our future liabilities, the creditworthiness of the average FHA borrower is much higher than historical levels. Currently, the average credit score of an FHA-insured loan hovers around 700. This is safely in prime credit territory, and well above the average FICO score for many low- and moderate-income households that the FHA has traditionally served. When the FHA premium was capped at 55 basis points, FHA charged a lower insurance premium for this prime quality borrower than premiums charged by the private mortgage insurers, making it exceedingly difficult for the private mortgage insurers to compete for that business. Turning to the issue of private industry, or private capital returns in the mortgage insurance industry, we see investor interest as very strong. Following the passage of the FHA Reform Act of 2010, the FHA was given the authority to raise annual premiums to 155 basis points, or 1.55 percent. Following a series of premium increases, the current FHA premium is 1.35 percent. Additionally, the FHA has taken further steps to shore up its finances, making FHA loans less attractive to higher credit quality borrowers, expanding the market share from private mortgage insurers. Since the FHA began to institute premium increases in 2012, FBR has helped to raise $550 million in capital for a new mortgage insurance company, and recently participated in raising a billion in capital for an existing mortgage insurance company. In total, the mortgage insurance industry has attracted nearly $3 billion in new capital in the last 12 months. Notably, investors chose to invest this capital only after FHA instituted premium increases. Despite the sums raised in the past 12 months, it is a far cry from the roughly $20 billion of capital that the private industry enjoyed just a few years ago. While much of the decline in industry capital is a result of extraordinary claims that the industry has paid in recent years, investors have been hesitant to provide capital to the industry, given persistent regulatory uncertainty, including GSE reform, FHA reform, Qualified Mortgage definitions under Dodd-Frank, and Qualified Residential Mortgage definitions under Dodd-Frank. We believe that as the market receives greater clarity on these issues, this clarity can facilitate even greater investment in private mortgage insurance. As a public policy, it could be seen as self-defeating for the FHA to allocate precious dollars for borrowers who would otherwise qualify for private mortgage insurance, while other borrowers struggle to get financing. As a means of expanding mortgage availability to those less-served segments of our country, the FHA has a critical role to play. And this dynamic leads to my final point. Higher premiums and other actions taken by the FHA can actually increase mortgage availability, up to a point. Now, this may sound inconsistent with policymakers' objectives but, in fact, we expect FHA premium increases to widen mortgage availability to less-served segments of our community. As premium increases take hold at the FHA, the FHA will price itself out of the prime credit market that I mentioned earlier. Private mortgage insurers are willing to serve this market. And if the government backs away, investors are more willing to invest in this private industry. In fact, we have started to see this play out. Importantly, however, now that the FHA capacity is not being allocated to this higher credit quality borrower, the FHA's precious resources can be directed to qualified but less creditworthy households. Under this scenario, we see the FHA fulfilling a very important policy objective of providing mortgage credit to underserved borrowers, while private capital becomes increasingly available to meet growing mortgage market demand. Again, I thank the committee for inviting me today. I am happy to answer any questions that you may have. [The prepared statement of Mr. Stelmach can be found on page 99 of the appendix.] Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And finally, Ms. Bazemore, you are recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF TERESA BRYCE BAZEMORE, PRESIDENT, RADIAN GUARANTY, INC. Ms. Bazemore. Thank you. Good morning. I am Teresa Bryce Bazemore, president of Radian Guaranty, a leading private mortgage insurance company. For decades, FHA and private MI have worked together in housing finance to ensure that low- and moderate-income families could purchase homes, often their first homes, with low downpayments. In fact, my first loan was an FHA loan for a condo, and so I have personally benefited from receiving both FHA and privately insured mortgage loans. FHA has been, and remains, a valuable part of the housing finance system. However, in the past few years FHA has dominated the mortgage insurance market due to housing policies and practices that provide competitive advantages to FHA, while crowding out private capital. By way of background, the private mortgage insurance, or MI, industry is the private sector alternative to loans insured by FHA. Private mortgage insurers help qualified, low- downpayment borrowers obtain an affordable and sustainable mortgage. When a borrower places less than 20 percent down, the lender is required to obtain private MI in order for that loan to be eligible for subsequent sale to Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac. Even during the recent challenging times, the MI industry raised over $8 billion in new capital, paid approximately $34 billion to the GSEs in claims resulting from foreclosure losses, and has reserved another $16 billion for this purpose. This is $50 billion taxpayers do not have to pay. We are able to pay claims at these levels in part because of the rigorous countercyclical reserve requirements and loan loss reserve requirements imposed by State insurance commissioners. A requirement to reserve half of every premium for 10 years ensures that significant capital reserves are accumulated during good times, and then drawn upon to absorb the losses during downturns. While private MI and FHA are similar in that they enable borrowers to buy a home with less than a 20 percent downpayment, there are some significant differences that Congress should consider. First, private MI places private capital at risk in a first-loss position after the borrower's equity. FHA relies on Federal funding, so that taxpayers currently are on the hook for over $1 trillion in mortgages. Second, private MI covers 25 to 35 percent of the loan amount, whereas FHA insures 100 percent of the loan amount, meaning the lender lacks any meaningful risk of loss. Third, private MI companies adjust premiums depending on the underlying loan characteristics. FHA premiums, on the other hand, do not reflect the true overall risk of the loans that FHA insures. Fourth, loans insured by FHA and guaranteed by Ginnie Mae are priced more favorably in the market than conventional loans guaranteed by Fannie and Freddie and insured by private MI. Keeping these differences in mind, I would like to offer five recommendations. First, authorize risk-sharing between FHA and private mortgage insurers. The private mortgage insurer will conduct an independent underwriting, and take a first-loss position ahead of the taxpayer. Second, alter FHA borrower eligibility standards to refocus FHA on serving lower- and moderate-income borrowers who need their help, as proposed in the Administration's February 2011 White Paper on housing finance reform. Third, consider reducing FHA's guarantee below its current 100 percent level, much like the VA mortgage program. A lower level of insurance coverage results in better underwriting and loan performance, which reduces both the probability of default and the severity of loss. Fourth, authorize FHA to adjust its premiums to levels that reflect the true risk of the loans that it insures. And fifth, avoid government actions that unintentionally steer borrowers to FHA, such as GSE guarantee fees and loan level price adjustments that are not actuarially based. The result is to make privately insured loans purchased by the GSEs more expensive than FHA-insured loans, thereby steering borrowers to FHA loans. Finally, I would like to say that unless the QRM and Basel III rules recognize private MI as a risk mitigant, low- downpayment borrowers will find it much harder to obtain a mortgage. Thank you, and I will be glad to answer any questions. [The prepared statement of Ms. Bazemore can be found on page 46 of the appendix.] Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentlewoman. And now, each Member will be recognized for 5 minutes for questions. I will begin by recognizing myself for the first question. Mr. Shapo, according to the NAIC Model Act, and I am going to read from that, ``In the event that any mortgage insurer has an outstanding total liability exceeding 25 times its capital, surplus and contingency reserve, it shall cease operating until it can build sufficient reserves.'' Why do you believe that State regulators put that in place? Mr. Shapo. It is part of the risk. The risk to capital ratio is a pillar of the system. There are minimum capital requirements in the low seven figures, but for a larger company, that is not the most important requirement. The most important requirement, as the company grows and as its exposure changes, the capital has to change and increase as the risk increases. So the baseline requirement is risk to capital. The requirements in different lines of insurance all follow that, in one form or fashion, the risk to capital ratio. And so that is the baseline requirement. And then the most important remedy, the most important follow-up to that is that if you don't meet that ratio, you can't continue to write business. It is essential that a company that is not able to support its level of exposure with real money in hand cannot continue to write more business and, potentially, increase and take basically an impairment and turn it into an-- Chairman Neugebauer. So to if I am following you here then, if FHA were an insurance company in Illinois, where you were a former insurance commissioner, and they had a negative net worth and they were writing 52 percent of the business, would they be allowed to continue to do that? Mr. Shapo. No. The basic purpose of the regulation is to keep, is to try to cabin the risk. You need to cabin the risk because you need to protect the current policyholders, you want--you need to-- Chairman Neugebauer. My time is limited. I intended for that to be a yes-or-no question. Mr. Shapo. I am sorry. Chairman Neugebauer. So would they be allowed to continue to operate in Illinois if they had a negative net worth and they were increasing the amount of business that they were getting? Mr. Shapo. No, the purpose would be to avoid the negative net worth. And so the answer is they would not be allowed to continue. Chairman Neugebauer. So I want to get consensus here because I think an important piece of this hearing is to establish what FHA is. And so, Mr. Bjurstrom, is FHA a mortgage insurance entity? Mr. Bjurstrom. I believe it is, yes. Chairman Neugebauer. Yes. And so is it being run, and is the oversight consistent with other mortgage insurance companies in this country? Mr. Bjurstrom. I think over the last 20 years, there have been several attempts to perform actuarial credibility as well as capital modeling. But due to the single-premium-fits-all type of structure, and the lack of actual reserving for losses, there is a lot of confusion with respect to how much the capital ratio or even just the capital account has in order to pay losses. So if you look over the last 20 years, they have lowered their premiums. I think they began about 380 basis points about 20 years ago. They reduced them down, thinking that they had enough money after the last crisis. But we went into this next crisis in such a manner where now they are increasing premiums again. And it is that kind of fluctuation and lack of temporal diversification that creates a lot of confusion. Therefore, the standards aren't set and regulated enough in order for them to maintain a high enough water level to meet their expected claim liabilities. Chairman Neugebauer. And my final question--and I have asked this a couple of times in previous hearings. One of the concerns I have is, almost that FHA manages their fund based on cash flow. In other words, as long as they have enough cash flow coming in to cover the losses for this year, they kind of think they deem themselves sufficiently capitalized. And if you run business on that model, then you are not ready for the big hit down the road. But the question I would have today is, I wonder what the numbers would look like. The fund is now underwater to the tune of about, I think, 1.7 percent or something like that. If they didn't have the current levels of business of the market that they have, if they had a more traditional level, would that number--you have done a lot of analysis--be much lower? In other words, their capital would be actually more negative if they didn't have the cash flow day after day from the fact that they are dominating the market? Mr. Bjurstrom. Yes, they operate on a cash basis, and they have operated in that manner until they actually--until they were held to hold a--to perform the capital ratio test. But the capital ratio test is just a number of financial strength. They still operate on a cash basis. So at the end of the day, there are roughly 750,000-plus serious delinquent borrowers right now. So that if they were to have to reserve immediately for those losses, and pull that cash into a reserve and then recalculate their capital ratio, you are correct that capital ratio, or financial ability to serve future borrowers, is much less. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now the ranking member, Mr. Capuano, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Capuano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And again, I thank the witnesses for your testimony. Thank you for being here today. Mr. Bjurstrom, do you think the FHA should be shut down because it is bankrupt? Mr. Bjurstrom. I do not. Mr. Capuano. Mr. Shapo, do you think the FHA should be shut down? Mr. Shapo. No, sir. Mr. Capuano. Mr. Chappelle? Mr. Chappelle. No, sir. Mr. Capuano. Mr. Stelmach? Mr. Stelmach. No, sir. Mr. Capuano. Ms. Bazemore? Ms. Bazemore. No. Mr. Capuano. Good. We agree. Thanks for coming. [laughter]. But we all agree that the FHA has some current issues. We all agree with that, no doubt, no debate. Mr. Bjurstrom, as I understand it, the FHA now has approximately $30 billion, give or take, in reserves. Do you believe that they will exceed those reserves in this year? Do you think they will dip beyond that, into taxpayer funds, to meet their requirements this coming fiscal year? Mr. Bjurstrom. I think it will be close. Mr. Capuano. Do you think they are going to need taxpayer funds this year? Mr. Bjurstrom. No. Mr. Capuano. Mr. Shapo, do you think they are going to need taxpayer funds this year? Mr. Shapo. Not to my knowledge. Mr. Capuano. Mr. Chappelle? Mr. Chappelle. No, sir. Mr. Capuano. Mr. Stelmach? Mr. Stelmach. Not to my knowledge. Mr. Capuano. Ms. Bazemore? Ms. Bazemore. I don't have a basis to make that assumption. Mr. Capuano. Fair enough. So of those of you who have an opinion agree they are not going to have to access taxpayer funds. Yet the law requires them to access that because the law, in my opinion, is stupid. Mr. Bjurstrom, do you think that law should continue? Do you think we should keep a stupid law, or do you think we should change a stupid law? Mr. Bjurstrom. I don't have enough of a legal background to answer that question. I think that the-- Mr. Capuano. You learned from Ms. Bazemore, didn't you? Mr. Bjurstrom. No, I think at the end of the day, the fund is the way--the accounting of the FHA is such that it relies on this water balance between the number of claims that they have to pay-- Mr. Capuano. No, I understand. They--I apologize, but my time is short. Mr. Bjurstrom. Sure. Mr. Capuano. I am not going to go through this because I think I just made the point that none of us think they are going to have to dip into taxpayer funds this year. I can't imagine that anyone would defend a stupid law, and therefore we should change a stupid law. And therefore, I invite my colleagues again to sign on to H.R. 1028, which will stop and prevent a stupid law from occurring and therefore exposing taxpayers to paying for something they don't have to pay for. But we will see who actually signs on to that. I guess-- what we are talking today is--I guess Ms. Bazemore, you have been in this business for awhile, correct? Ms. Bazemore. Yes. Mr. Capuano. Okay. Are all of the companies that were in business in 2007, all the PMI companies, still in business today and writing insurance today? Ms. Bazemore. No. There were eight companies prior to the crisis, and three of them are no longer writing business. They are managing the portfolios that-- Mr. Capuano. So 3 out of 8 is what, 40 percent? Ms. Bazemore. Five. So five are left. And three new entrants have come into the market. Mr. Capuano. So approximately 40 percent of the companies have disappeared because of the crisis, and yet I am supposed to say when 40 percent of the companies have disappeared those losses have been probably been shifted over to government responsibility. And I understand that, I am not blaming them. Everybody lost money in 2008, a lot of people made bad assumptions and bad bets. But at least 40 percent of the PMI industry somehow made those same bets. And yet, I am supposed to say everything was fine, we should just ignore that? The States can take care of it? Ms. Bazemore. Actually-- Mr. Capuano. I think it speaks for itself, when you lose 40 percent of the companies doing the business, that there is an inherent problem that everybody has to share. I have no doubt that your business model has shifted today from what it was in 2007 and 2008. Ms. Bazemore. I would just point that the loss reserves that were being discussed earlier, each of the companies that are--even though they are no longer allowed to write business, they had significant loss reserves to pay claims. So--okay. Mr. Capuano. I understand that. And so is the FHA, obviously. So therefore, I understand that part of the reserve has worked. But they are out of business, so there is some problem. I guess I am trying to make the point that private insurance is a good thing. And I think that there is certainly a role for it, and I actually agree that it is upside-down now. But I am looking at a chart that indicates in 2002, private insurance had 70 percent of the market and the FHA had 30 percent. Is that the right number? And in 2007, private insurance had 82 percent of the market and FHA had 18 percent. The question is, what is the right balance? And I guess we will find out as the market goes on. Today--in the last 2 years, private insurance had actually increased its share of the market by 2\1/2\ times. In 2008, did the FHA crowd you out? Ms. Bazemore. I would say that the FHA actually didn't take actions to crowd us out. I think there were other government policies, such as the GSE increases in their fees, their LLPAs as well as-- Mr. Capuano. You do agree that we had to do something in 2008 and 2009? Ms. Bazemore. Those two things happened in the 2008-2009 timeframe, and we saw a precipitous decline. Mr. Capuano. Bingo. Ms. Bazemore. And we have done a number of things as private MIs to get that business back. Mr. Capuano. And I think that is fine. So has the FHA, and right now we are still in the process of trying to find that right balance, which I agree with. That is where I agree with the whole premise of these hearings, that we have to find the right balance, exactly where it is. But there is no given that somehow the FHA or government involvement in certain aspects of the market is a good thing. The question is, where is the line, let's fine tune it a little bit. And by the way, before my time runs out, I just need to make the same point I always make, that when you talk about $200,000 limits, you are basically taking about a third of the country and saying we are not going to do any loans in your district. Because in Massachusetts last year, they had 83,000 FHA loans. Texas had 815,000. That is 9.7 times more FHA loans than Massachusetts did. And if you limited it to $200,000, because the market in Massachusetts is so much more expensive, it would have been 24 times more loans. Because Texas is a relatively modest-priced State, and Massachusetts is not. And we are not alone. California, New York, Philadelphia. To understand the market, you have to understand there are regional differences in both real estate prices and wages. And I know you know that, but I say that because my time is running out. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And that is one reason a lot of people are moving to Texas. [laughter]. Mr. Capuano. Mr. Chairman, then why haven't our real estate prices gone down? Chairman Neugebauer. I now recognize the vice chairman of the subcommittee, Mr. Luetkemeyer, for 5 minutes. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The gentleman next to me from California is wanting all of those folks to come out to California, as well, so--thank you all for being here this morning. And to follow up a little bit on the ranking member's line of questioning there with regards to the size of the loans, the other day when we had the FHA individual in here talking about their model of how they were doing things, over the last couple of years they indicated that they have actually expanded the larger part of their--or the portfolio part of their business to making larger loans. And they did it, they said, to--obviously, because of the increasing amount of premium they can get to shore up their bottom line. It would be counter to what I have heard this morning from, I think, two or three of you with regard to the data here that you are quoting this morning indicates that FHA actually has not been making larger loans in increasing numbers. Can you give me some information? Mr. Chappelle, I know you were--you had a lot of information in your testimony. Mr. Chappelle. Thank you, Congressman. The Congress gave FHA the authority, in 2008, to expand its mortgage limits to help ensure there was liquidity in the entire mortgage market. Because private businesses made the decision, the smart decision, to pull back. But Congress wanted to make sure that there was money available so that the market would not collapse as far--worse than it actually did. And so, they gave the authority to the FHA to raise their limits. FHA raised the limits. But the point is, they have done very few loans over $400,000; only 9 percent of their business is over $400,000. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Is it increasing, though? That was the point they made the other day. Mr. Chappelle. No, it is going the other way. Mr. Luetkemeyer. That they are increasing those numbers, and they are looking at the last couple of years of loans they have made. And they keep coming back and saying their portfolio has improved, our past dues are less, our loss ratios are less, and are pointing to that portion of their business as improving their overall picture. Mr. Chappelle. But the key issue is, structurally, in the FHA program, FHA charges every borrower the same premium. By charging every borrower the same premium, which some of my colleagues here aren't too crazy about--but by charging everybody the same premium, that means people with lower risk are paying more. It has been a fundamental part of every audit that I can remember that higher-balance loans perform better than lower-balance loans. So by definition, if you are charging those borrowers here--if your premium is here on those borrowers, they are overpaying their premium. Consequently, they will go to the private MI because it is a better deal, unless they have no other choice. So the-- Mr. Luetkemeyer. My comeback to that would be--I am not trying to argue with you here, but I--it is--I am getting some different information from those other folks who testified earlier. And having been in the financial services industry for 35 years, I can tell you that, yes, the bigger loans, they may make more money on. But you also have more exposure to loss because there is a bigger loan there. And if you don't have better criteria on those larger loans, and you don't do a better job of underwriting those loans, your exposure is greater. On the front end, you may make a few more dollars, but on the back end, your exposure is huge because it is a larger loan. If it goes south, you have a bigger problem. So I am not sure that they are actually solving the problem; I think they are probably taking on more risk in the long term, if that is the case. But if you are saying they are not doing that, why, I appreciate your testimony this morning. From the standpoint of--Ms. Bazemore, you had some interesting comments here with regard to a number of suggestions on how to price risk and how FHA could improve their book of business. Could you go back over those? I thought some of those were pretty salient. And I guess my initial question would be, as you go through them, has FHA thought about doing some of these things? Are you talking with them, do they have an ombudsman program, for instance, that you would be able to communicate with them on to be able to have some interaction and then have them take up some of these suggestions? Ms. Bazemore. I would say that clearly they have made some changes in terms of increasing their pricing. I think part of it is just to understand what their risk is and making sure the pricing is commensurate with the risk that they are taking on. But with respect to risk-sharing, I think the concept there-- which is something that we have had some engaged conversation about--is with the idea of being able to bring some of what we have built in the private mortgage insurance industry to bear in a way that would be really a partnership. And we have built a lot in terms of risk analytics, we have built a lot in terms of our ability to analyze portfolios, even on a weekly basis, what is being submitted. And to communicate back with the lenders who are originating those loans to help them understand what is going on. Mr. Luetkemeyer. Thank you. My time is about ready to run out. I want to make one quick point. There are certain tenets of sound lending that are inescapable regardless of whether it is a large loan or a small loan. And if you get away from those sound tenets of lending, you are going to lose. It seems to me that we have continually done that with some of our GSEs. We continually--we know what we need to be doing, and yet we fall away from that. And then when--as soon as we do, we wind up in trouble. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Thank you. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now the gentlewoman from New York, Ms. Velazquez, is recognized for 5 minutes. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bjurstrom, following the housing bubble-burst, three of the eight largest private mortgage insurance companies went out of business. Those that survived suffered significant losses. Could you please explain the reasons why many of the major private mortgage insurers suffered such losses during that economic recession? Mr. Bjurstrom. I would be happy to. I think during that period of time there were a lot of new types of products that were brought to the market. And from an actuarial pricing standpoint, there was not a lot of information to judge the way they price their products. And therefore-- Ms. Velazquez. It didn't have anything to do with the fact that your industry relaxed the standards? Mr. Bjurstrom. Yes. Ms. Velazquez. Borrower standard and underwriting requirements, pressure by the lenders? Mr. Bjurstrom. That is correct. Ms. Velazquez. Okay. So why were some of these companies not able to pay these claims without going bankrupt? Mr. Bjurstrom. Actually, they have been put into receivership and they have been under the department of insurance of their State of domicile. They are restricted from writing new business, but they are still paying claims and setting up reserves for those losses. Ms. Velazquez. But still, can you explain to me why they were not able to pay the claims without going bankrupt? Mr. Bjurstrom. Without going bankrupt? Ms. Velazquez. Yes. Mr. Bjurstrom. I think Mr. Shapo had indicated that they reached their statutory risk to capital. Ms. Velazquez. Okay. Mr. Chappelle, Fannie Mae noted in its most recent report to the SEC that many of its private mortgage insurance counterparties were struggling to meet their current State regulatory capital reserve requirements. Based on your experience as a former insurance commissioner, would you be concerned about this company's current financial conditions? What about their obligations to fulfill future claims? Why or why not? Mr. Shapo. Why what? I am sorry, ma'am. Ms. Velazquez. Why, or why not? Mr. Shapo. No. The purpose of the regulation is to keep the companies from going bankrupt. They are not bankrupt. The purpose of the regulation is to make sure that the risk to capital ratios are in line. Ms. Velazquez. Would you please comment on the Fannie Mae recent report to the SEC? Mr. Shapo. I think I am commenting on it. What the States are doing is, they are preventing the companies from expanding their potential exposure at a time when their financial condition cannot support it. The whole purpose of that is to keep the companies from actually going bankrupt. They are not bankrupt. That is the purpose of requiring a minimum ratio. What has happened in some cases is the companies have been put in runoff, prevented from continuing to write new business. They are put in runoff for the whole purpose of protecting the common fund and protecting the ability to pay clients. Ms. Velazquez. Mr. Chappelle, recent reports from Fannie Mae on the Bank for International Settlements indicate that private mortgage insurers are still in a wait position and are susceptible to significant risk. If private mortgage insurers were to obtain a larger share of the market as they claim they want, would they be in a good position to weather another economic downturn? Why or why not? Mr. Chappelle. That is a good question, Congresswoman. And it is an uncertain thing. None of the MIs have the rating that Fannie and Freddie required before the housing crisis, which was a AA rating. The good news is that the ratings are improving. But they are still well below an A rating, and that is a problem. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you. Could you, Mr. Chappelle, discuss the importance of FHA's countercyclical role during periods of economic recession, when private mortgage insurers are absent from the market? How bad could the downturn have been if FHA was not present to keep the housing finance market afloat? Mr. Chappelle. Sure. I worked at FHA from 1975 to 1986, so I saw what happened in the oil patch States in 1982 to 1986. When we were at FHA, we continued to stay in those markets after the private sector made the right business decision to pull back. I remember a statistic that we had from back then, that 19 percent of FHA's business came from the 6 oil patch States, but 50 percent of their claims came from those 6 States. Now, it would have been easy for FHA at the time to pull out of those six States. But if they had done that, it would have been devastating for Texas, Oklahoma, Colorado, Louisiana, Alaska, and another State. And so the value that played there is--what they are doing now is the same thing--at the national level, what it did in 2007 and 2008. Ms. Velazquez. And can we talk about FHA solvency? Do you think that the agency has taken steps that will address its underlying solvency issue? Mr. Chappelle. Absolutely, Congresswoman. Their MIP for the period from the 1930s to the 1980s was roughly 3.5 percent, what they were collecting. They are now collecting 9 points today; 9 percent is their premium, effectively. That is going to allow them to shore up the fund immediately and build reserves so that hopefully, they will be above the 20 percent capital ratio much sooner than the actuary audit anticipated. Ms. Velazquez. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Miller [presiding]. Thank you. Mr. Chappelle, you made a good point. Mr. Luetkemeyer made a statement, and he was correct, that when the larger loans do default, it is a large amount of money. But if you look at the reality, only 1.6 percent of FHA loans were made above $500,000; only 3.5 percent were made above $400,000; and only 9 percent were made above that range. Mr. Chappelle. Correct. Mr. Miller. But if you look at the default rate, above $400,000 the default rate was about 33 percent lower. Mr. Chappelle. Correct. Mr. Miller. As you go up, they even went down. So the FHA was right to a point. The loans they made that were the safest and best-performing are in the higher-cost areas, but they are not making that many of them. Mr. Chappelle. Exactly. Mr. Miller. Because of the cost. Mr. Bjurstrom, you made a statement that their rates were much higher 20 years ago than today, but CDs were 6 and 7 percent 20 years ago, and they are less than 1 percent today. So everything has come down dramatically in that time. But I am kind of curious how you perceive FHA's performance compared to the private sector in four ways: first, adequate internal controls and technology systems in place--how do they currently compare to the private sector; second, appropriate accounting standards; third, real-time risk management; and fourth, their capital ratios. Can you address those? Mr. Bjurstrom. Yes. I think there is really--I can address it with two points. One is, is in any insurance company with respect to enterprise risk management, having a lot of change in any given year or over a very short period of time is never good. A few years ago, the FHA had a very low share of the market. And then as they came in, in the latter part of 2008 and 2009, they went from 400,000 policies to over a million policies. That puts a lot of stress on an organization. So at the end of the day, working through that additional business puts a lot of stress-- Mr. Miller. But that doesn't address the questions. Are their internal controls and technology systems, compared to the private sector, adequate? Are their appropriate accounting standards compared to the private sector, adequate? Real-time management? Are they responding in an adequate timeframe in their capital ratios? Mr. Bjurstrom. Yes, I think their accounting needs to be changed to recognize the more certainty--certain liabilities that one can-- Mr. Miller. So we need to provide better assets for them to make sure they can do their job. Mr. Bjurstrom. That is correct. Mr. Miller. Okay. Mr. Bjurstrom. That is correct. Mr. Miller. And how about their appropriate accounting standards and real-time management? Are they responding adequately today to the market changes? They weren't a year or 2 ago, but are they today? Have they upgraded their standards on risk management? Mr. Bjurstrom. I believe they are working on it, to achieve a certain level of standards. But according to the GAO, I think there are a lot of improvements to be made. Mr. Miller. Okay. For everybody on the panel, do you think FHA operational technology and the cutting tools it needs are available to them today to minimize taxpayer risk? Ms. Bazemore? Ms. Bazemore. I believe they need additional tools. Mr. Miller. Okay. Mr. Stelmach. I don't have the ability to judge the FHA's internal-- Mr. Miller. I couldn't hear you. Mr. Stelmach. I don't have the ability to judge FHA's operations. Mr. Miller. Okay. Mr. Chappelle? Mr. Chappelle. They can always improve, but they are doing it at an acceptable level right now, I believe. Mr. Miller. Okay. Mr. Shapo? Mr. Shapo. I don't have the factual basis to be able to have a full answer to the question. But clearly, they are not-- they do not have the same kind of enterprise risk management practices and self-assessment tools that regulated carriers do. Mr. Miller. Okay. Mr. Bjurstrom. I agree with Mr. Shapo's point that the regulation is such a--in such a manner that those--that transparency is not there. Mr. Miller. Okay. Yes, sir-- Mr. Chappelle. The legislation that this committee passed last year would go a long way to helping along that issue, though, also. Mr. Miller. Okay. Ms. Bazemore, you commented on the lack of involvement of the private sector. And what I am seeing out there from people wanting loans is, the private sector is just not moving back in adequately. And the only option out there, in many cases, is FHA. That is the reality I see builders are going through when they are building homes and selling them. And you say FHA premiums are harming the private sector return to the marketplace. They have increased them 5 times. So is it the premium problem, or is it the QM, QRM and Basel? All the private sector issues that we are trying to deal with, and we have made more difficult, are those keeping the private sector out more than just more the cost differential? Ms. Bazemore. I think the first thing I would say is, you have to think of the private sector as sort of two parts. So when you think of private MI, we are really part of the GSEs. And so we insure GSEs, essentially bring private capital to that. That has always been there, we have never left the market. However, I think there was a perception with lenders in terms of going to FHA because that is where the decision is made about whether to use FHA or to use private mortgage insurance. And so, for instance, over the last year we have trained 15,000 loan officers on the fact that many times it is better for the borrower to have a mortgage-insured loan than-- Mr. Miller. No borrower with common sense would use FHA over private sector mortgage insurance, because of cost alone, if it were available. So, if you look at the cost differential between the two, it is huge. So if you are going to get an FHA loan, your fees and costs are much greater than if you went to a PMI in a private sector. So there has to be more keeping the private sector out than we are addressing. Ms. Bazemore. You have to really look at the FHA and Ginnie Mae execution together, and that is the real comparison with MI and the GSEs. And it is still more favorable to have FHA and GSE, with a Ginnie Mae guarantee in terms of the loan in the marketplace. Mr. Miller. My time has expired. I would like to go into that more. But, Mr. Cleaver, you are recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is one of the committees, I think, where there is an attempt to avoid having fact-free debates. So I would like to know whether any of you disagree with the report from Inside Mortgage Finance which says the private mortgage insurance--insurers were able to write $175 billion in 2012. Does everyone agree with that? Ms. Bazemore. Yes. Mr. Cleaver. So how do you juxtapose that with the subject of this hearing? FHA is crowding out the PMIs? Yes, Ms. Bazemore? Ms. Bazemore. Congressman Cleaver, I think that a lot of the crowding out took place in sort of the 2009--late 2008-2009 timeframe. And since then, there have been efforts, I think, both by the FHA--because even Secretary Donovan stated that he felt they had too large of a share of the market. So FHA has taken steps, through premium increases. The private industry, private MI, we have also taken a number of steps to try to increase the share. And I think that it is slowly working, and that is what you are seeing in Inside Mortgage Finance, that sort of has continued. The difficulty is that things like increased GSE fees, can have the effect of changing that. And so other benefits, when you see what is happening with QRM or Basel III--where FHA may get benefits--all of those things could actually reverse the benefits that we have been seeing. And that is one of the points of my testimony. Mr. Cleaver. Mr. Chappelle? Mr. Chappelle. Yes, I agree with your point, Congressman. The problems from the MI industry are not FHA-related. As Ms. Bazemore pointed out, it was QRM, it was loan level price adjustments from the GSEs. But also equally important, when you pull out of a market in 2008 and 2009, the mortgage business is a relationship business. If you pull out, you just can't flick a switch and come back in. It is going to take time. And as Ms. Bazemore said, they are training loan officers about the benefits of private mortgage insurance. But I know a lot of lenders, going back to the oil patch days in the 1980s, who still have trouble doing business with MIs because they felt they had policies rescinded without having the coverage of insurance. So there are a lot of other factors that have nothing to do with FHA. And, hopefully, the LLPAs are a critical--the GSE LLPAs are a critical part of that. And I know we agree that needs to be looked at. But it is far more of these other issues than it is the FHA issue. Mr. Cleaver. Yes, and if you listen to all of you, each of you has, at times, made statements that would suggest that you all agree that FHA is not the problem. But--and Ms. Bazemore, to go back to what you said, in 2007, the housing market collapsed. It collapsed. And so, these private companies did what they do at a time when things go bad. They pulled back. They stopped lending. Do you agree? Ms. Bazemore. I don't think we stopped lending. I think, in fact, we changed our underwriting guidelines because we saw so many borrowers were being put into homes that they couldn't afford and we thought the loans should be affordable and sustainable. So many of the changes are in alignment with Dodd- Frank and QM. Mr. Cleaver. Yes. We probably have a slight disagreement. Because I think they stopped lending, and we actually had committee hearings where we dealt with that with banks. They stopped. And it is true that some of the exotic products had created problems, and that was pushed aside as it never should have been brought to the surface. But, there was some robust and reckless lending. Does anybody disagree with that? Okay. And so those companies--you can--I don't know how you want to--if you are going to say they came--that they had more intelligent lending. But the fact is, the percentage of the mortgage insurance written fell back, right? Ms. Bazemore. Yes. Mr. Cleaver. So that, in and of itself, I think, would suggest the need to maintain FHA. I think we need to tweak a lot of things, including Dodd-Frank. But I don't think we can attribute everything bad to FHA. I am out of time. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now the gentleman, Mr. Westmoreland, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Westmoreland. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chappelle, I was noticing in your resume, or biography, that when you were with FHA you actually maybe had the responsibility for the development of the adjustable rate mortgage program. Is that true? Mr. Chappelle. Yes, I worked on the implementation of it. Yes. Mr. Westmoreland. Okay. Originally, did FHA make that buyer, as part of the loan guarantee, qualify for the adjustable rate, or what the rate could eventually go to? Mr. Chappelle. We surely didn't use what it could eventually go to, Congressman. It was 30 years ago, so I am going to have to--I would have to go back and read the mortgagee letter. Mr. Westmoreland. Okay. I was just thinking that you might remember it because it was a pretty important part, and you were there. Mr. Chappelle. The only thing I would say is adjustable rate mortgages are probably 1 percent of FHA's business today, a very small portion of it. Mr. Westmoreland. Okay. But if you were making somebody qualify for what the rate could have been versus what the adjustment rate was, that would have been a smarter move, don't you think? Mr. Chappelle. Absolutely. Mr. Westmoreland. Mr. Bjurstrom, you evidently counsel, I guess, businesses on how to compete against FHA. What are some of your recommendations that you give them to be able to compete, and what level can these private industries--do they play on the same level, the same guidelines, as what FHA does? Mr. Bjurstrom. I think the MI companies try to price their products so that they achieve the amount of loss-paying ability and capital accretiveness that is necessary to remain a viable company. I think it is difficult to compete with one price that the FHA has with their--because it creates a sort of adverse selection between the products and programs that are being targeted for a capital accretive and solvent--on a solvent basis versus an all-in. And from time to time it works out, but with one price for all borrowers over all times the underlying mix of the underwriting characteristics of the borrowers changes. So in some years, when the economy is good, you may have additional premium because losses are low. But in times that it is bad, you have more losses, and therefore you are going to need more premium to cover those. So to basically--the way I advise my clients is just to make sure that they understand the risks and exposures associated with originating a borrower, and then price it effectively. Mr. Westmoreland. So, basically, are you saying that FHA may have some different guidelines as far as the quality of the credit? Mr. Bjurstrom. Yes. Mr. Westmoreland. Okay. Now, let me ask you this. And we agree--at least I agree coming from a building background, real estate background--that we need FHA. And FHA was started with great intentions as far as first-time home buyers, and low- to moderate-income. Do any of you on the panel see that FHA has gotten out of that original intent and gotten into some places where maybe the private sector, private mortgage insurance, has more expertise in that area of lending than what FHA was really created to do? Ms. Bazemore? Ms. Bazemore. I would just say that I think that while it is continuing to serve some of its historical mission, I think just because of some of these policies we have talked about, it has broadened out further than that. And a significant amount of loans that they are doing fall within what the private sector could be doing. And the capacity is there, certainly, to do it. A comment came up earlier, just in the last 2 weeks, that two of our companies have raised $1.8 billion in capital. So the capacity is actually growing, and I think the model is working as it was intended to. Mr. Westmoreland. Mr. Chappelle? Mr. Chappelle. Congressman, it is important to remember that the loans that the FHA is getting, these higher credit score borrower loans, are helping the solvency of the fund. But they charge a premium structure that discourages those borrowers from coming into the program unless they have no other option. So they are not--those borrowers are not getting a good deal because FHA charges that borrower the same price they charge the borrower with credit deficiencies. So if they are coming in, they are coming in because they have no other option, because it wouldn't be the right business decision. But by the fact they are coming in, they are helping to strengthen the portfolio and the solvency of the fund. Mr. Westmoreland. I am out of time. I will yield back. But I can appreciate that fact that they wouldn't be coming to FHA if they could go somewhere else. But to me, that is also a telltale sign of the quality of some of the loans that actually may be coming through. So with that, I yield back. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. Mr. Sherman is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Sherman. Ms. Bazemore, I was interested in your testimony on Basel III. I agree with you that obviously mortgage insurance is a risk mitigant. What can the Administration and/or this committee do to make sure that in calculating bank capital, the obvious risk mitigant effect of insurance, mortgage insurance, is taken into account? Ms. Bazemore. I think the easiest thing to do would be to stay with what has been the current practice through Basel I of recognizing private mortgage insurance as a risk mitigant rather than the proposal that would not give any weight to it, but would give full weight to government loans. Mr. Sherman. I would hope that this committee would join with you and others in the industry in making sure those who are crafting Basel III get that issue right. We all agree that we want private sector capital to be part of mortgage insurance. And I understand the private mortgage industry has recently attracted new capital. How much have you attracted? Ms. Bazemore. Our company, about 2 weeks ago, raised a net $689 million. One of the other legacy mortgage insurer-- insurance companies, in fact, just released today that they had netted, I think, about $1.1 billion. So just for those two companies, there was significant capital that came into the market. Mr. Sherman. Now, are there changes that can be made in the FHA to increase the role of the private sector and to attract more capital into mortgage insurance? Ms. Bazemore. I think the focus really is on moving FHA to more of its historical mission, understanding that may have changed over the last few years. And it is moving back, but looking at practices that really make sure that when private mortgage insurance is in the best interest of the borrower, it is being used. And that there aren't other sorts of decisions that are made, or policies that are put in place, that it would encourage otherwise. Mr. Sherman. Now--and I don't know which person to address this to, so I will kind of see who seems interested in answering it--I understand that under the proposed QRM rule, loans insured by FHA are automatically exempted from the risk retention requirements, while loans insured by private insurance are not necessarily exempted. Is this because meeting FHA standards somehow means that it is a wonderful, pristine loan? Or that the value of FHA insurance is so--that value means it is a Qualifying Mortgage, and why wouldn't we also exempt from the risk retention private mortgage insurance? Always the same hands. I am used to that. Ms. Bazemore. I think, first of all, the reason why FHA is given full credit is because it is fully backed, 100 percent explicitly, by the Federal Government, and so the banking regulators are essentially looking at that. I think that with respect to--there has been a huge coalition that has come together of industry, trade groups, and consumer groups that are very concerned about the QRM rule, because we believe that it could actually reduce the availability of low-downpayment loans. And so, there has been a lot of focus on the fact that low- downpayment loans with MI should also be included in the QRM rule. Mr. Sherman. So the reason for the exemption is not that FHA has standards that are so good that if you meet those standards it must be a Qualifying Mortgage. It is simply that if the lender has that insurance, they are pretty well-insured from loss. Mr. Stelmach, I see you nodding. Mr. Stelmach. I simply agree with Ms. Bazemore, that there is a 100 percent government guarantee on GMA securities, which are ultimately the destination for FHA loans. Those loans trade more--are more profitable to make than those in the mortgage origination market. And it makes more sense, perhaps, from a QRM definition. But it also will introduce distortions in market share between FHA and private capital, which may exacerbate the current situation. Mr. Sherman. My time has expired. Chairman Neugebauer. Yes. Thanks to the gentleman. And now the gentleman, Mr. Stivers, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Stivers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate you holding this hearing. My first question is for Ms. Bazemore. Do you believe that FHA underprices the risk that they insure? Because we talked about how they have gained a lot of market share from private mortgage insurance. PMI premiums have gone up because of the risk experience, but FHA hasn't gone up as much. Do you believe they under-price their risk? Ms. Bazemore. Without doing a true actuarial review, it is hard for me to say at this point whether or not they are-- Mr. Stivers. Let me ask it another way. Does private mortgage insurance charge an actuarially sound premium? Ms. Bazemore. Yes, we believe we do. Mr. Stivers. Does FHA underprice PMI? Ms. Bazemore. I think, based on the comparison, we would think that it is somewhat underpriced because of the risk profile of the loans that they are insuring. Mr. Stivers. I won't ask you take the next logical step, but everybody can do that for themselves. If PMI is actuarially priced soundly, and FHA underprices PMI, everybody else can do the rest of the equation for themselves. One of the loss reserve accounts that are used by private mortgage insurance companies is the contingency reserve, where 50 percent of each premium collected from each given year's book of business is required to be held in reserve for a period of about 10 years to pay claims that might arise out of a specific book of business in the event of some kind of severe problem like we experienced over the last few years. Which means private mortgage insurance can't earn all their premiums through short-term distortions in the marketplace of low default rates. Do you know if FHA follows that same reserving procedure? Ms. Bazemore. That might be a better question for-- Mr. Stivers. Does anybody on the panel know if FHA uses that same procedure? Mr. Bjurstrom. They currently do not use that standard. Mr. Stivers. And if FHA doesn't have a contingency reserve, should it have one? I will go ahead and--we can go straight down the panel. Does everybody think that would be a good idea? Mr. Bjurstrom. I think it would be a good idea. Mr. Shapo. It would be a sound way to manage risk in a way that they are not doing now. Mr. Chappelle. FHA does have $38 billion in reserve. Mr. Stivers. And what did they have last year? Mr. Chappelle. Thirty-three billion dollars, $32 billion. It has gone up. Mr. Stivers. Okay. Still going down there. Mr. Stelmach. Yes, I believe that would be a sound practice, absolutely. Mr. Stivers. Thank you. The other thing that Ms. Bazemore talked about that I think is an interesting idea is to have partnerships with FHA and private mortgage insurance companies. Does anybody else on the panel--she was the only one who really spoke in depth about that. Somebody else mentioned it a little bit. Mr. Bjurstrom. I have some--actually, there are examples of private-pubic partnerships now. A number of State housing finance agencies have mortgage insurance funds in which they actually reinsure 75 to 90 percent of the risk to the private MIs. Mr. Stivers. And do you think that is a good idea? Mr. Bjurstrom. I do think-- Mr. Stivers. I guess I want to go straight down the line again and see if everybody thinks that is a good idea. Because it sounds like a great idea to me. Mr. Shapo. In theory, it sounds like a great idea. I am not as familiar with the proposals as Ms. Bazemore and Mr. Bjurstrom. Mr. Stivers. Sure. Mr. Chappelle. I agree, Congressman. The Congress did give that legislation back in 1992, and the MI industry and FHA were both interested in doing it. But there are factors. The economic factors of pricing, counterparty risk, sharing of the risk, and never--nothing ever came of it back then. Mr. Stelmach. I would agree that is a good idea. But we also need a balance between public policy and expanding homeownership with private capital. And that sounds a lot like some of the issues we had when the GSEs were in existence with trying to balance those same issues. So yes, a good idea, but balance. Mr. Stivers. Thanks. I think there are some ideas that we can pursue to have a more sound policy that charges actuarially sound rates, and still encourages homeownership. But when you encourage homeownership in a way that somebody can't sustain it, that is not really encouraging responsible homeownership. So I think charging rates that are inappropriate or low isn't fair to FHA or their long-term mission and their viability. So I think there are some simple reforms that we can enact, common sense reforms, that I think would make the program better. I really appreciate all of you coming today. I appreciate your thoughtful testimony and ideas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. And now the gentlewoman from Ohio, Mrs. Beatty, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mrs. Beatty. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Ranking Member. Mr. Shapo, I believe you stated in your testimony that the FHA has expanded its business in a time when it is--I think it was impaired, insolvent and undercapitalized. With that said, what do you make of the fact that since its peak in 2009, FHA's market share has been steadily declining while the private mortgage insurance share has been increasing at roughly the same pace? Mr. Shapo. I think that the more important question is what would--the way I look at it is, what would happen--what would the ratios be now if it were not for the distortions to the market. The fact that FHA has reserves doesn't mean that it is not impaired and it doesn't mean that it is not in a negative position. The fact that the FHA--that the loss history is improving doesn't mean that it should have continued to write more policies after it went under its minimum ratio and after it went into a negative balance. By doing those things, by expanding beyond its position before, it has distorted the marketplace. And so the question would be, would the private companies have been able to take a larger market share if they had been able to get some more of that good business that FHA was able to get after the worst of the financial crisis. So I think that--my answer is, is that even though the private carriers have more market share, they do not necessarily have any market share that they could have gotten in the market share that could have properly supported their risk if there hadn't been distortions in the market. Mrs. Beatty. Mr. Shapo, with that said, maybe a better question, or response, would be if I put it this way. If you take, for example, the credit ratings, which I am sure we will all agree plays a key factor--so if you look at the world out here of the market share, and I have a credit rating that is on the high end. And if I then look at what the percentage cost for that loan would be, if I have a high rating and I am getting it for 4.3 percent, why would I then go to FHA, which is going to be a higher rating if my credit rating is a good rate? So then those who would be in that same market share, with the higher--why would they go to FHA? You would, in fact, get those folks because most of us would understand a lower percentage, which you would get in the private market versus FHA. So I don't get that FHA would be hurting the private market, or insurers, because I am not going to pay 1.5 percent higher when I know I can come over here. It tends to be into FHA's mission, which I am glad we agree on and we have heard in the other hearings, what their mission is core to. So those folks who fall to the left of the higher end are paying that flat rate because they are not going to be engaged with the private insurers. Mr. Shapo. My take on it would be that because of the--FHA has brought artificial factors into the starting--during the crisis. And then if it does so, it is going to be in a position to take those better risks because it has become a larger player. Therefore, keeping the private companies away from getting those better risks when the market got better probably affected their ability to attract capital. They have attracted capital. But the question is, could they have attracted more capital? The mortgage insurance market, like all insurance markets but in particular the mortgage insurance market, is subject to pretty substantial fluctuations. And so the question is, would the degree of the comeback been higher if there hadn't been as much distortion to the market between the government-- Mrs. Beatty. I guess for me, it is not the distortion. And rest assured that I am comfortable in saying FHA does not set the credit scoring. So based on those folks going in on--the credit scoring is not established by FHA. They would not go to FHA when they can get a better rate. Mr. Shapo. But FHA's market position, I think, has distorted the market and restricted the ability of the private carriers to take in--to get the better risks, and then to attract more capital. Mrs. Beatty. I think we just have a difference of opinion. Thank you. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentlewoman. Now the gentleman from California, Mr. Royce, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Royce. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, I think we have had a very good round of hearings on the future of FHA. It is not my goal to do away with FHA, but I do think we have to force the FHA to deal with its fiscal woes. We have to stop attempting to grow out of that situation with the approach that they are on now, and figure out a way to allow the private market to regain market share. And when you think it through, I think that is the best scenario that we have for the taxpayers, but also for future homeowners if we can do that. I think we have already pretty clearly established that current policies at the FHA have led to the crowding out of the private market. So the concern here is, in the future, going forward, are there policies that are going to further aggravate that situation. And specifically, the proposed Qualified Residential Mortgage rule and the proposed Basel III capital rules provide special dispensation to FHA loans. The former gives a safe harbor from the risk retention requirements for FHA loans, and the latter allows a zero-risk weight to loans insured by FHA. So the net result is that government policies, I presume here, are going to steer borrowers to the FHA and further crowd out the private market, which certainly was not the congressional intent. What will be the impact, is the question here, on the mortgage insurance marketplace if these rules are finalized in their current form? And I would ask Mr. Bjurstrom and Ms. Bazemore for opinions on that. Mr. Bjurstrom. I think the execution gets incredibly more expensive, and therefore the alternative FHA programs will dominate the market. Ms. Bazemore. I would agree with that. I think that the concern is that the cost will become significantly higher, and so FHA would again be favored in the marketplace. Mr. Royce. Would anyone else like to weigh in on that scenario, or do you agree with that assumption, or-- Mr. Chappelle. I agree, Congressman. And I think it is important for private MI loans to receive the same general--be in the same general category as FHA or Fannie-Freddie loans are. Because we need more loans being made in the country, and we don't need anything that is going to restrict or leave out loans. So I would heartily endorse it. Mr. Stelmach. I would endorse that, as well. If you think about a $9 trillion mortgage market in the United States, there is only one industry right now, private industry, that provides some sort of credit enhancement with only $6 billion of capital to support that. So in a $9 trillion market with only $6 billion of private capital, I think there is ample room on a regulatory basis, on a Basel III basis, to expand that private capital. Mr. Royce. Mr. Shapo, you say in your testimony you have seen many times, in the insurance marketplace, when government programs like residential risk pools put in place to try to help hard markets have ballooned in market share and only ultimately distorted the market and destroyed any chance the market had of pulling out of a crisis. And you cite the New Jersey automobile insurance markets as an example there. That appears a good reference point for what we see now with the FHA, with market share rising I think it is about 56 percent or over that. And private insurers pressed to leave the market. As you say, this is just one of many examples of government intervention in the marketplace. Can you describe, then, the impact that this has on competition as a result of these interventions? Could you explain the result to consumers, and what other examples are out there that you might want to give us? Mr. Shapo. Thank you, Representative. Yes, the common thread in all these is substantial government intervention. Sometimes taking different forms, but substantial government intervention to try to enhance availability and/or affordability of insurance products. And my point is that an insurance market is like any other market. Insurance has many complexities, but the basic ways that the market works are not complex. I quoted the Supreme Court, which quoted a House report, in McCarran-Ferguson: ``The theory of insurance is the distribution of risk according to hazard, experience and the laws of averages.'' It is pretty straightforward stuff. And to the extent that the outcomes are not pleasing to policymakers, and that they try to affect those outcomes, that will affect the ways the market works. Subsidies will develop, risk will be mispriced, capital formation-- Mr. Royce. Capital formation will be impacted negatively. Mr. Shapo. I'm sorry? Mr. Royce. Capital formation is impacted negatively. Mr. Shapo. That becomes the most important factor, is that capital formation is negatively impacted. Money does not flow to the marketplace. And what happens is, you tend to get a double spiral. You get a spiral in the government-encouraged pool because it is not properly pricing risk. So it tends to balloon out of--and we have an extreme example here, where you have a negative cash balance and a negative capital position with the FHA program. Mr. Royce. It can lead to insolvency, yes. Mr. Shapo. And it impairs the private market, too, because no capital comes in and they can't properly compete. Mr. Royce. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Neugebauer. Now, the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Garrett. Mr. Garrett. I thank the chairman. I just have a couple of questions. Mr. Bjurstrom, can you talk to me about accounting? GAAP accounting? Mr. Bjurstrom. I am not an accountant, but I will do my best. Mr. Garrett. Is there any reason why the FHA could not be using GAAP accounting? Mr. Bjurstrom. I don't--I believe they can account for it any way that you direct them to. Mr. Garrett. Okay. Is there any reason why other agencies or entities should not be using GAAP accounting, on the Federal level? Mr. Bjurstrom. I am not familiar with the ability of other entities to do that. Mr. Garrett. All right. But as far as the FHA? Mr. Bjurstrom. No, I believe that you have the ability to tell them specifically how to account. Mr. Garrett. Okay. So when you talked about the GSEs previously, you talked about them having stakeholders, which would be the investors in it, right? Now when you talk about the FHA, we don't have investors in the FHA in the typical sense of the word. But you do have shareholders, you might say, if you described the American taxpayer in the FHA. And I guess this is open to the panel, as the taxpayer being the shareholder of the FHA, should we not be looking to them to factor in market risk, FHA, when they make their--when they do their accounting? I will start at the end, and anybody else who wants to comment on it. Mr. Bjurstrom. Pricing is the art of factoring in all risks. And if you look at the exposures and the mission and the purpose, and then after you have figured that out and then you then back into pricing. And along with that pricing is a component for volatility, which would include a lot of the market risk which this industry has a lot of market risk volatility. Mr. Garrett. Right. And--so anybody else? Wouldn't that be more transparent if it was a private corporation? You would be requiring transparency to the investor. Here, the stakeholder is the taxpayer. So wouldn't that be good for the stakeholder, the taxpayer, to have that information, that transparency? Does anybody disagree with that? You disagree with that. Mr. Bjurstrom. I like the transparency question just because of the fact that instead of it just being a single entity like the FHA pricing its own insurance, I think that is where they need to start. But I also like the benchmarking against others that are pricing for the same risk. Mr. Garrett. Right. Mr. Bjurstrom. As well as the opportunity to do reinsurance or risk share. Because then you get many multiple points of validation that you agree with others that your price is commensurate with the risk, not just individually promoting price changes individually. Mr. Garrett. I understand. Mr. Chappelle, do you disagree with the idea of transparency? Mr. Chappelle. I don't disagree with the idea of transparency, but I do have trouble--FHA is a government program. If you are going to compare it to the private sector, it is impossible to come up with a legitimate comparison. You are going to have to make estimates as part of that process. There was already a say to evaluate FHA's soundness through the 1990 Budget Act. And if you want to move the goal posts and change how they do it, you could do it. But it is a government program. I think we all recognize that, and it is hard to apply to a government program what the private sector has. They don't have the profit motive. They can't withdraw from markets. They can't do the things the private sector-- Mr. Garrett. Right. So you take that out. But as--your initial testimony was that you can factor in the market risk. So that would be one aspect that GAAP accounting would be providing to the public, the taxpayer, to understand better what their actual financial posture is. Notwithstanding that they don't make a profit, and notwithstanding that they are backstopped, correct? Mr. Chappelle. It wasn't my testimony that said that. Mr. Garrett. No, I am just saying would that--is that not true? Mr. Bjurstrom. I think, at a minimum, doing the analysis in order to create the right policy and the right information concerning that policy is most appropriate. Mr. Garrett. In my minute that I have left here, the role of FHA, what it should be, what it was designed for. The President has talked famously about how we should be raising taxes on the proverbial rich. And they define the rich as those people making over $200,000, $250,000. If that is the rich, then should the FHA be put back to its original foundational format to say that it is not there to help the rich, it is to help out first-time homeowners and lower- and middle-income people making under $250,000? Does anybody disagree with that assessment? You do? Mr. Chappelle. Congressman, it is an insurance program. Mr. Garrett. Right. Mr. Chappelle. And like everybody has said on this panel, it has to spread risk. There is a cornerstone of the FHA program that higher-balance loans perform better than lower- balance loans. So if we are going to protect the taxpayer, you need some of those borrowers. But the news is, FHA charges a premium structure that if someone who is ``rich'' wants to use the program, I would welcome it. Because they would be overpaying their insurance. Mr. Garrett. That is--okay, just to know, then, that we will establish one program that is for the rich, then, yes. That is fair. I yield back, I guess. It is the Chair's prerogative. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. I want to follow up here because a couple of points have been made. This hearing is really about a number of things, but one of them is that--and Mr. Chappelle just made this point-- this is an insurance program. But it is an insurance program that is not being run like an insurance program, in that when you look at the industry standards that governments have basically established for people in this kind of business, model legislation, models of how much leverage is--should be-- is reasonable, and reserves that should be there to protect people. So I think the question is, is why would there be any argument that if we are going to have an insurance program, and the shareholders are American taxpayers, why wouldn't we run it like an insurance company and have it adhere to the same standards that other insurance companies have to adhere to? Mr. Bjurstrom? Mr. Bjurstrom. I agree. If you need to run it like an insurance program and price it appropriately, reserve for it appropriately, and capitalize it appropriately, then you would have a better idea of what your future expected outlook looks like. And that is really the--from a financial, accounting and modeling and actuarial standpoint, that is all we are really suggesting and trying to achieve. Chairman Neugebauer. I think the other issue is--and I support what the gentleman from New Jersey said about using GAAP accounting or what I call ``accrual accounting'' to be able to establish what is the value of the portfolio and what is the potential risk of the portfolio so that you can price it. The other piece of the pricing currently is the fact that FHA doesn't factor in their operating costs into setting their price because we appropriate money for that. So at the very least, it would appear to me that if you are going--that entity should be at least, if it is not going to pay a dividend, if it doesn't have shareholders, it is going to operate as a nonprofit, it ought to at least, then, have to factor in the cost of operation. Because it is not so much that we are trying to steer business to the private mortgage insurance companies, but what we are trying to do is find a balance in the marketplace of the total housing finance picture. And while we may be pushing some more business to the PMI companies, the private companies, today, unfortunately, about 90 percent of the mortgages in this country are still being backed by the American taxpayers. And so it is the policy that we are driving, that we continue to, I think, put inhibition--or inhibit the ability of the private sector to be into the marketplace today. Because this has been brought out, the risk retention issues. But it is not so much the pricing differentiation of the premium law. That is a piece of it. But it is the fact that, overall, a FHA loan today is a lower-cost loan overall because of the fact that it is backed by the Federal Government. And so when--and Ms. Bazemore brought this point up--you put the fact that you have Ginnie and FHA together, then the borrowing cost in the capital markets is much less. And so, it pushes it automatically. It doesn't--really, almost to a point where the differentiation in premium maybe is negated by the fact that the overall lower borrowing cost is compensating for any premium differentiation in the marketplace. And so, I think one of the things that I would hope, as we are moving forward, is that we have two responsibilities here. One is to make sure that a program that we have oversight over as a government is being run appropriately. And that if we take a look at something that has been in place for a number of years without--not a lot of changes, and understanding that the world has changed. Back when FHA was originally put in place, there wasn't a lot of securitization going on. Most of the loan sales were individual sales. Now we have securitization, so should we take a look at how we--how that impacts the way we run these businesses? But more importantly, I think, for many of us is trying to get back--and I think Mr. Capuano made a great point earlier--what is the right formula. What is the role of--what is the marketplace for FHA? And then what is the marketplace for the private market to be in there? We have to fix all of the pieces. But we can only fix them one at a time. And so as we move forward, I hope that we can have a meaningful dialogue about how we look at the FHA piece. I think there is some room here to shore it up, and I think there is room here to make sure that we don't--that there are not some market distortions there that are driving people to FHA other than the mortgage premium, or mortgage insurance premium, that FHA is charging. And I think that is really, hopefully--we heard some very good testimony today, and I look forward to probably having some ongoing dialogue with some of the market participants here. Because the ultimate goal here is for all us to do the right thing. And I am concerned right now that we are running FHA kind of on an ad hoc basis. And if it had a little better structure that overall it would be a more sustainable program. We wouldn't need to have hearings about why you have a negative net worth. Those are not the kind of oversight hearings that we need to be having. We need to be having oversight hearings where things are getting better. And unfortunately, we have been told that things are getting better, but the results have not proven that fact. And then the other point is the fact that since we are not using Generally Accepted Accounting Practices, we really don't know if this entity is actuarially, how sound it is or isn't. So with that, I am going to yield to my colleague, Mr. Capuano, for any remarks that he may have. Mr. Capuano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And again, I agree with you. I think that the whole idea of this is try to figure out exactly what we want the FHA to do. But I do caution people that no government program should be run as a private program. We don't have the profit motive. And if you want to look at the model, look at the model of private insurance, private mortgages before the FHA. There were no middle-class mortgages, period, end of issue. Only rich people or people who inherited a house could afford to buy a home. And the FHA allowed people to get into the middle class by buying a home. So there is a balance. And I agree, our job is to try to find that balance. Ms. Bazemore, if I told you that in 2 years you could increase your share of the current business by 2\1/2\ times, do you think that would be a good deal? Ms. Bazemore. Yes. But it would also depend on where I started. Mr. Capuano. No, and I don't blame you. Of course, if you told me you were going to increase my salary 2\1/2\ times, I would say okay, I am in, sign me up. It's not happening, I know. PMI has increased its share of the mortgage businesses by 2\1/2\ times in the last 2 years. And yet I keep hearing from some people that it is absolutely proven, without question, without a doubt that the FHA is squeezing private enterprise out. I find that hard to believe when you are increasing your mortgage here. You are going back to what appears to be a more normal time. We are not there yet. And I agree with that, there needs to be more done. And my fear is that if we don't get this right, if we allow the FHA to continue going where it is going, which I don't like some of the things they have done. I understand them in the short term, but in the long term we will be doing, effectively, what we shouldn't be doing, which is making mortgages so expensive or mortgage insurance so expensive, again, there will be no middle-class people. I guess I just want to reemphasize that as we rebalance this, as we look at it, the basic question is, how much is enough? And maybe I am wrong, but I don't think that the private mortgage industry would be well-served if we drive the middle class out. You have done a good job over the years finding a niche in balance with the FHA. Now, again, that niche, that whole system, was messed up in 2008 for everybody, and we need to re-find that balances. But prior to that, I didn't hear any complaints. No one was complaining then. And so the question is, do we or do we want to have any government involvement in allowing the middle class to continue being able to afford a mortgage. And for me, that is where we are trying to go. I have no philosophical viewpoint here, except that I know--and again, I never qualified for an FHA loan because I do come from a high-cost area and because I have been fortunate in my life. Fine. But I know one thing. If there were no GSEs and there was no FHA across the country, my mortgage rates would be through the roof and I never would have bought a home. Because I own, currently--the home that I bought in 1980 is a two- family home. Why did I buy a two-family home? I needed the rent to pay the mortgage. And I had to fight with the bank to accept that. So without that, I wouldn't be in the middle class, and my children would not have had a college education because I, like many Americans, remortgaged my house to pay for their college education. And for me, I thank God there was a system in place that allowed me the opportunity to buy a home. And I need to make sure that is the case for the next generation. Which, by the way, as a point of fact, is not there in many parts of this country today. People 30, 40 years old cannot afford to buy a home. They can't get the downpayments together because the house prices are too high, and they can't afford the monthly mortgage. Especially if you add that on top of the student loans they are paying. That is not good for them. It is also not good for America, and it is not good for your businesses. So with your help, we will find that way to balance it. But I need to make sure that some philosophical viewpoint of some greater good doesn't get in the way of actually finding a way to rebalance this system in a manner that keeps it going for the next generation. I know that your testimonies I heard today all fit in that category, and I thank you for that. And I look forward to working with you all as we move forward. Thank you. Chairman Neugebauer. The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Green, is recognized for 5 minutes. Mr. Green. Thank you very much. And I neglected to thank the ranking member earlier for allowing me to be a part of the hearing. I did thank the chairman, so I now thank the ranking member. And after hearing the ranking member's statement, I think we probably are at the offertory and closing hymn. Because like him, I, too, thank God for FHA. But I will ask a few questions, if I may, to bring a little bit of clarity to your testimony. Because I suspect that some things are the case, but sometimes when you finish testifying, persons who are viewing this at home are not sure. So perhaps we can bring a bit of clarity. Is it true that each of you would keep FHA? Simply put, is there anyone who wants to end FHA, have no FHA at all? If so, would you kindly raise your hand if you want to end FHA? All right, let the record reflect that we have no hands in the air. And as a result, we can conclude that no one wants to end FHA. Now, let me go further and ask is there anyone who believes that FHA as it has functioned traditionally is somehow adverse to the market that has developed through the years, that has seen some difficult times as of late. But is FHA's traditional role one that we all believe is important and we should maintain. And if so, if you do not agree, would you kindly raise your hand? If you don't think its traditional role is one that we should maintain. And for our benefit, Mr. Chappelle, I am going to ask you to give us your summary, quickly, of what FHA's traditional role has been and how that role still benefits us, even in these difficult times. Mr. Chappelle. Sure, Congressman. FHA has helped low-, moderate- and middle-income families to be able to buy their home. Predominantly first-time home buyers; 75 to 80 percent of their loans go to first-time home buyers. Predominantly lower- income home buyers, as I noted in my testimony. Their median income was $56,000 in 2011. So FHA's role is to help--it is really the insurer of last resort for creditworthy home buyers. But to be able to do that, they do need to spread that risk a little bit because they have to--they can't just have the highest-risk pool. They have to spread the risk. But they do have structural protections, I believe, which ensure they do not encroach too far into the private sector. And that would be the fundamental point I would make. Mr. Green. And do you think that tweaking the 100 percent rule--that is what I am calling the rule that allows FHA to insure the home for 100 percent-- Mr. Chappelle. --of the value? Mr. Green. Of the value, yes. Do you think that can be tweaked such that it provides FHA with a greater amount or lesser amount of risk? Mr. Chappelle. I think it would be a major mistake for the program. That 100 percent insurance is one of the core, structural parts of the program. Because what is happening today in the marketplace is that lenders, even with 100 percent insurance, are adding their own underwriting requirements on top of FHA's. They are called ``credit overlays.'' Because--and I know some of the panelists said there are only perceived risks in the FHA program. I can assure everybody, lenders feel there is real risk in the FHA program. That is why they put these overlays in place. And if you go and lower that insurance from 100 percent, that is just going to ratchet up that risk factor for the lender, which will exclude the people that you would like to see, and we would all like to be--see to be part of the FHA program. So I think that would be a serious, serious problem for the program to lower that insurance. Mr. Green. And the final question on this--in this area. What do you think that FHA can do to better serve the public? Mr. Chappelle. Congressman? Mr. Green. Yes. Mr. Chappelle? Mr. Chappelle. I think the mortgage limits were raised in response to the problems in the marketplace in 2007 and 2008. I, and I am sure most other people who would like to see the FHA program continue to prosper recognize those limits should not stay there forever. And once the mortgage market recovers-- because the purchase market is still in a depressed state. But once the purchase market recovers, those limits should come down to more reasonable levels. And I think at the appropriate time, that would be the correct thing to do. Mr. Green. I thank all of the witnesses, and I will just have my parting comment. I have many constituents who have benefited from FHA. And it is the bridge that has brought a good many people over to the promised land, if you will, of homeownership. And I think that there may be some things that we can do to tweak it, but FHA should not be frowned upon for the good job that it has done. And to a certain extent, we are condemning it for being successful. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Chairman Neugebauer. I thank the gentleman. I would like to thank each of our witnesses again for their testimony today. The Chair notes that some Members may have additional questions for this panel, which they may wish to submit in writing. Without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 5 legislative days for Members to submit written questions to these witnesses and to place their responses in the record. Also, without objection, Members will have 5 legislative days to submit extraneous materials to the Chair for inclusion in the record. And without objection, the hearing is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 12:17 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X March 13, 2013 [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]