[House Hearing, 113 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] AN OVERVIEW OF THE FISCAL YEAR 2014 BUDGET PROPOSAL AT THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF STANDARDS AND TECHNOLOGY (NIST) ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON TECHNOLOGY COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ THURSDAY, APRIL 18, 2013 __________ Serial No. 113-21 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Science, Space, and Technology Available via the World Wide Web: http://science.house.gov U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 80-560 WASHINGTON : 2013 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON SCIENCE, SPACE, AND TECHNOLOGY HON. LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas, Chair DANA ROHRABACHER, California EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas RALPH M. HALL, Texas ZOE LOFGREN, California F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, JR., DANIEL LIPINSKI, Illinois Wisconsin DONNA F. EDWARDS, Maryland FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas SUZANNE BONAMICI, Oregon MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas ERIC SWALWELL, California PAUL C. BROUN, Georgia DAN MAFFEI, New York STEVEN M. PALAZZO, Mississippi ALAN GRAYSON, Florida MO BROOKS, Alabama JOSEPH KENNEDY III, Massachusetts RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois SCOTT PETERS, California LARRY BUCSHON, Indiana DEREK KILMER, Washington STEVE STOCKMAN, Texas AMI BERA, California BILL POSEY, Florida ELIZABETH ESTY, Connecticut CYNTHIA LUMMIS, Wyoming MARC VEASEY, Texas DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona JULIA BROWNLEY, California THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky MARK TAKANO, California KEVIN CRAMER, North Dakota ROBIN KELLY, Illinois JIM BRIDENSTINE, Oklahoma RANDY WEBER, Texas CHRIS STEWART, Utah VACANCY ------ Subcommittee on Technology HON. THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky, Chair RANDY HULTGREN, Illinois FREDERICA S. WILSON, Florida DAVID SCHWEIKERT, Arizona SCOTT PETERS, California JIM BRIDENSTINE, Oklahoma DEREK KILMER, Washington EDDIE BERNICE JOHNSON, Texas LAMAR S. SMITH, Texas C O N T E N T S Thursday, April 18, 2013 Page Witness List..................................................... 2 Hearing Charter.................................................. 3 Opening Statements Statement by Representative Thomas Massie, Chairman, Subcommittee on Technology, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives.................................. 8 Written Statement............................................ 8 Statement by Representative Frederica S. Wilson, Ranking Minority Member, Subcommittee on Technology, Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, U.S. House of Representatives........... 9 Written Statement............................................ 10 Witnesses: The Honorable Patrick Gallagher, Under Secretary of Commerce for Standards and Technology; Director, National Institute of Standards and Technology Oral Statement............................................... 11 Written Statement............................................ 14 Discussion....................................................... 27 AN OVERVIEW OF THE FISCAL YEAR 2014 BUDGET PROPOSAL AT THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF STANDARDS AND TECHNOLOGY (NIST) ---------- THURSDAY, APRIL 18, 2013 House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Technology Committee on Science, Space, and Technology, Washington, D.C. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in Room 2318 of the Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Thomas Massie [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.001 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.002 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.003 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.004 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.005 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.006 Chairman Massie. The Subcommittee on Technology will come to order. Good morning. Welcome to today's hearing entitled ``An Overview of the Fiscal Year 2014 Budget Proposal at the National Institute of Standards and Technology.'' In front of you are packets containing the written testimony, biographies, and truth-and-testimony disclosures for today's witness panel. I now recognize myself for five minutes for an opening statement. Today, we examine one portion of the President's budget proposal--the Fiscal Year 2014 budget request for NIST. Last week, I had the opportunity to visit NIST's campus in Gaithersburg, Maryland, and to see a sample of ongoing research activities. In my time there, I was able to visit the Net-Zero Test Facility, the Center for Nanoscale Science and Technology, and the Center for Neutron Research. Dr. Gallagher, I want to thank you and let you know that your staff took very good care of me and my staff as well. And their enthusiasm for NIST's work was apparent throughout my tour. The Fiscal Year 2014 budget request for NIST totals $928 million, an increase of $177.5 million or almost 24 percent from the Fiscal Year 2012 enacted level. Now, this Committee has a long, bipartisan record of support for NIST and its contributions to research and development, but I think I need to repeat that figure. The President has requested a 24 percent increase for NIST in Fiscal Year 2014. That type of increase in a time of decreasing budgets will be very difficult to achieve and require significant changes in other areas. The requested increases would be devoted in large part to bolster advanced manufacturing initiatives by NIST, as well as in areas such as cybersecurity, disaster resilience, forensic science, and broadband communications. We are here today to learn more about the justification for this request and I am appreciative of the opportunity to learn more about how Fiscal Year 2014 funds would be prioritized by NIST. I thank our witness, Dr. Gallagher, for his time today. I now recognize the Ranking Member, the gentlelady from Florida, Ms. Wilson, for an opening statement. [The prepared statement of Mr. Massie follows:] Prepared Statement of Chairman Thomas Massie Good Morning. I would like to welcome everyone to today's hearing. Today we will examine the fiscal year 2014 budget request for the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). I would like to thank Dr. Gallagher for appearing before us today. Today, we examine one portion of the President's budget proposal, the fiscal year 2014 budget request for NIST. Last week I had the opportunity to visit NIST's campus in Gaithersburg, Maryland, and to see a sample of ongoing research activities. In my time there, I was able to visit the Net Zero Test Facility, the Center for Nanoscale Science and Technology, and the Center for Neutron Research. Dr. Gallagher, I want you to know that your staff took good care of me, and their enthusiasm for NIST's work was apparent throughout my tour. The fiscal year 2014 budget request for NIST totals $928 million, an increase of $177.5 million or almost 24 percent from the fiscal year 2012 enacted level. Now this Committee has a long, bipartisan record of support for NIST and its contributions to research and development. But I think I need to repeat that figure. The President has requested a 24 percent increase for NIST in fiscal year 2014. That type of increase in a time of decreasing budgets will be very difficult to achieve, and require significant changes in other areas. The requested increases would be devoted in large part to bolster advanced manufacturing initiatives by NIST, as well as in areas such as cybersecurity, disaster resilience, forensic science, and broadband communications. We are here today to learn more about the justification for this request, and I am appreciative of the opportunity to learn more about how fiscal year 2014 funds would be prioritized by NIST. I thank our witness, Dr. Gallagher, for his time today. Ms. Wilson. Thank you, Chairman Massie, for holding this morning's hearing to examine the Fiscal Year 2014 budget request for the National Institute of Standards and Technology. I would also like to thank Dr. Gallagher for testifying today and for his leadership in NIST. It is good to see you again, Dr. Gallagher. NIST is an economic engine for this Nation. For more than 100 years the Institute's broad and deep technical expertise has advanced measurement science, standards, and technological innovation, strengthening our manufacturing sector and boosting innovation. In this time of painfully high unemployment, we need NIST. We need NIST's expertise more than ever. And this time in which developing nations are taking the lead not only in assembling products, but also inventing products, we need strategic investment in research, development, and education. I am pleased that the President's budget recognizes the importance of NIST and gives the agency a prominent role in the Administration's efforts to revitalize American manufacturing. The Administration's budget includes a number of initiatives that can strengthen and reinforce the competitive position of the United States. For instance, the Advanced Manufacturing Technology Consortia program that will create public-private partnerships to address technical barriers that are stopping the growth of advanced manufacturing here at home. It simply makes sense to leverage Federal resources to bring companies together to solve common challenges. It bolsters innovation and creates jobs. And that is what we should be concerned about: jobs, jobs, jobs. The President's proposal also advances emerging fields such as biomanufacturing and nanomanufacturing. This research will provide a foundation for new and existing companies to flourish, producing high-quality, high-paying jobs that will remain with us over the long haul. Whether we like it or not, the truth is that most of our competitors are putting significant and targeted resources towards helping businesses, small and large, accelerate the commercialization of innovative technologies. They are doing it. I don't think we can afford to just stand by and watch these companies set up shop somewhere else. I don't think we can afford to just watch as these technologies and jobs take hold somewhere else. We need to support the Administration's proposal for a National Network for Manufacturing Innovation. This proposal is intended to help bridge the gap from research and development to commercialization through proof-of-concept activities and direct collaboration with industry. It is also intended to build up the skills of our workforce, preparing students for the manufacturing jobs of the future. I often worry about the class of 2013, high school and college. While some questions remain about these manufacturing institutes, I believe the concept has merit and I am looking forward to learning more about it today. I am also interested in learning more about how the current budget request will advance NIST's effort to make our communities more resilient to natural disasters. I was born and raised in South Florida. I have seen my fair share of the devastation of severe weather. While we cannot stop hurricanes, tornadoes, or earthquakes from happening, we can and must do all that we can to make sure that our communities have the capacity and the tools they need to respond and recover from these events. Mr. Chairman and I look forward to working with you and our colleagues to ensure that NIST has the resources it needs to fulfill its crucial role of promoting innovation, increasing competitiveness, and enhancing our security. And I yield back the balance of my time, two seconds. [The prepared statement of Ms. Wilson follows:] Prepared Statement of Ranking Minority Member Frederica S. Wilson Thank you, Chairman Massie, for holding this morning's hearing to examine the fiscal year 2014 budget request for the National Institute of Standards and Technology. I'd also like to thank Dr. Gallagher for testifying today and for his leadership at NIST. It's good to see you again. NIST is an economic engine for this nation. For more than 100 years, the institute's broad and deep technical expertise has advanced measurement science, standards, and technological innovation-- strengthening our manufacturing sector and boosting innovation. In this time of painfully high unemployment, we need NIST's expertise more than ever. In this time in which developing nations are taking the lead not only in assembling products but also in inventing products, we need strategic investments in research, development, and education. I am pleased that the President's budget recognizes the importance of NIST and gives the agency a prominent role in the Administration's efforts to revitalize American manufacturing. The Administration's budget includes a number of initiatives that can strengthen and reinforce the competitive position of the United States. For instance, the Advanced Manufacturing Technology Consortia program will create public-private partnerships to address technical barriers that are stopping the growth of advanced manufacturing here at home. It simply makes sense to leverage federal resources to bring companies together to solve common challenges. It boosts innovation and creates jobs. The President's proposal also advances emerging fields such as biomanufacturing and nanomanufacturing. This research will provide a foundation for new and existing companies to flourish-producing high- quality, high-paying jobs that will remain with us over the long-haul. Whether we like it or not, the truth is, that most of our competitors are putting significant and targeted resources towards helping businesses--small and large--accelerate the commercialization of innovative technologies. I don't think we can afford to just stand by and watch those companies setup shop somewhere else. I don't think we can afford to just watch as those technologies and jobs take hold somewhere else. We need to support the Administration's proposal for a National Network for Manufacturing Innovation. This proposal is intended to help bridge the gap from research and development to commercialization through proof-of-concept activities and direct collaboration with industry. It is also intended to build up the skills of our workforce--preparing students for the manufacturing jobs of the future. While some questions remain about these manufacturing institutes, I believe the concept has merit and I am looking forward to learning more about it today. I'm also interested in learning more about how the current budget request will advance NIST's efforts to make our communities more resilient to natural disasters. Born and raised in South Florida, I have seen my fair share of the devastation of severe weather. While we cannot stop hurricanes, tornadoes, or earthquakes from happening, we can and must do all that we can to make sure that our communities have the capacity and the tools they need to respond and recover from these events. Mr. Chairman, thank you again for holding this hearing and I look forward to working with you and our colleagues to ensure that NIST has the resources it needs to fulfill its crucial role: promoting innovation, increasing our competitiveness, and enhancing our security. Chairman Massie. Thank you, Ms. Wilson. If there are Members who wish to submit additional opening statements, your statements will be added to the record at this point. At this time I would like to introduce our witness. Our witness is Dr. Patrick Gallagher, the Under Secretary of Commerce for Standards and Technology and the Director of the National Institute of Standards and Technology. Dr. Gallagher is the 14th Director of NIST and the first to hold the position of Under Secretary of Commerce. He received his Ph.D. in physics at the University of Pittsburgh. Thanks again to our witness for being here this morning. As our witness should know, spoken testimony is limited to five minutes after which the Members of the Committee will have five minutes each task questions. I now recognize Dr. Gallagher to present his testimony. TESTIMONY OF THE HONORABLE PATRICK GALLAGHER UNDER SECRETARY OF COMMERCE FOR STANDARDS AND TECHNOLOGY, AND DIRECTOR, NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF STANDARDS AND TECHNOLOGY Dr. Gallagher. Chairman Massie, thank you very much for this opportunity to be here today, and Ranking Member Wilson, it is great to see both of you. And since this is my first official event in front of the Subcommittee, let me congratulate both of you on your leadership positions and to say for the record that I am looking forward to working with both of you. Today, I would like to discuss and give you a quick overview of the President's Fiscal Year 2014 budget request for NIST. This budget reflects the important role that NIST plays as part of the President's ``Plan to Make America a Magnet for Jobs by Investing in Manufacturing.'' From transforming communities across the country into global centers of manufacturing through the establishment of the National Network for Manufacturing Innovation to strengthening supply chains through MEP to supporting innovative manufacturing technologies by investing in the R&D of the NIST laboratories, the proposed Fiscal Year 2014 budget reflects NIST's role in the Administration's efforts to strengthen manufacturing through critical investments in research and development. NIST's mission is to promote innovation and industrial competitiveness through advancing measurement science, standards, and technology and it is well-aligned with the priority goals articulated by the President. The NIST budget is comprised of three discretionary spending accounts, as well as a mandatory proposal. Mr. Chairman, the President's discretionary funding request for $928.3 million reflects an increase of 177.5 million above Fiscal Year 2012 enacted levels, and more than half of the proposed increased funding would be focused on advanced manufacturing research both at NIST laboratories and through industry-led consortia. This budget was carefully crafted to address pressing needs for standards and measurement work principally in emerging technology areas and to provide the seed funding to encourage industry and academia to come together to address common technology problems that are too large for individual institutions to tackle by itself. The request for the laboratory programs of $693.7 million recognizes the important role NIST labs play in advancing innovation. The request is an increase of 126.7 million from the Fiscal Year 2012 enacted level. Within the request, current Administration priority areas targeted for budget increases include advanced manufacturing, cybersecurity, healthcare information technology, disaster resilience, forensics, advanced communications, and the NIST Centers of Excellence Program. The request will help ensure that NIST laboratory research, facilities, and service programs continue to work at the cutting edge of science and will assist U.S. industry as well as the broader science and engineering communities with the measurements, data, and technologies they need to further innovate and make sure the United States remains industrially competitive. The request for the NIST Industrial Technology Services account is $174.5 million representing an increase of $46.1 from the Fiscal Year 2012 enacted level. The account includes $153.1 million for the Hollings Manufacturing Extension Partnership program, or MEP, and $25 million for the Advanced Manufacturing Technology Consortia program, or AMTech. AMTech will establish industry-led consortia to identify and prioritize research projects supporting long-term industrial research needs. The Construction of Research Facilities request is $60 million. This is an increase of about $5 million. The increased funding will allow NIST to reduce the backlog of maintenance projects on its facilities and to improve the overall condition of them. This construction request also provides for the first year of a major project to renovate Wing 5 of the Building 1 laboratory complex at NIST's Boulder facility. This building has been undergoing renovations in stages for some years now and the continuation of this project is critical. As part of the Administration's effort to revitalize manufacturing, the budget proposes a $1 billion mandatory account to establish a National Network for Manufacturing Innovation, or NNMI, which aims to bring together companies, universities, and community colleges. Mr. Chairman, also included in this request are scientific programmatic initiatives that are tied to the overarching themes of this budget. In addition to the strong advanced manufacturing request, the cybersecurity request for protecting the Nation's cyber infrastructure is a top priority of the Administration. The initiative will enable NIST to strengthen its core cybersecurity R&D program that are the critical foundation upon which our ability to effectively engage with industry on cybersecurity is built. The NIST laboratory programs, along with its outreach efforts and standards development work, are dedicated to providing U.S. industry with the tools they need to innovate and compete and flourish in today's fierce global economy. And I look forward to working with you and the Members of the Committee. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Dr. Gallagher follows:] [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.007 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.008 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.009 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.010 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.011 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.012 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.013 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.014 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.015 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.016 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.017 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.018 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 80560.019 Chairman Massie. I thank the witness for his testimony. Thank you, Dr. Gallagher. Reminding Members that the Committee rules limit questioning to five minutes, the Chair will at this point open the round of questions. And I will recognize myself for five minutes. So in your testimony you mentioned that there is $1 billion in a mandatory fund to be provided for the manufacturing initiatives. This is more than the annual budget for NIST, and so my question is where--how will these programs occur if the billion dollars is not provided and will this come from NIST, the DOE, the DOD? Where will this billion dollars come from? Dr. Gallagher. So thank you for the question. So the NNMI proposal is designed to provide a one-time investment, not a continuous investment, to create basically a research infrastructure for the country. The research infrastructure is designed actually to attract private sector, in other words, industry's R&D funding. We are trying to create a condition where a group of companies acting together can do something that they would not be willing to do on their own. The President's proposal would base the program at NIST. The reason for that is we have a very broad vision and set the context for NIST managing the program would be to enhance the competitiveness of the country to look at all of the different possible sectors as we ran the program. And as I envision it, the funding would be available, you know, for some finite period of time. It would go out as a set of grants to support the formation of these institutes. If that--that would require legislation, and I think this Committee would likely play a key role in developing that legislation. And your question is if that legislation does not occur, where does the funding come from? And I think what would happen, given the fact that these institutes seem to be filling a key need, is we would have to leverage existing programs to make that happen. And in fact, the Administration both last year using DOD funding, combined with some funding from other agencies--and the President announced his intent to do three more institutes this year--you are going to be leveraging existing programs at other agencies, and that is why the Defense Department and DOE have been identified. Chairman Massie. So--okay. I understand that the DOE and the DOD may provide some fund if the billion dollars is not provided for by Congress, but my follow-up question would be, will NIST contribute any discretionary funding in Fiscal Year 2014 to those institutes? Dr. Gallagher. Well, I think it would seem natural that at some level we would, but again, without a specific program, it would have to be in the context of our existing programs. And so NIST participation in that context would probably have one of two flavors. It could be supporting the industrial R&D in measurement science, a core part of the NIST mission. That would be very attractive because this is designed to be the industry's concentration of R&D. I can't imagine who else NIST would want to work with. The other area, of course, is in the small and mid-sized business. So the NIST MEP program is designed to provide that outreach to small and mid-sized manufacturers, any institutes will play probably a magnet store role. And when you have that concentration of capability and large companies want to be located near that, supply chains will be located near those big companies. And I think there is a very natural role for the NIST MEP program to play a supporting role. So we think there would be a good match for NIST to participate with the centers. Chairman Massie. Okay. Thank you. I have another minute here. I would briefly like to ask you about the Smart Grid Interoperability Panel that was created in 2009. This is of particular interest to me. I am interested in energy and the efficient use of energy because for all the talk about alternative energy, it is a lot cheaper to save energy than it is to try and create it with alternate means. So I understand that the leadership of the Smart Grid Interoperability Panel has recently been handed over from NIST to a nonprofit organization driven by the private sector. Can you please explain in the brief time remaining what NIST's role is in the continued development of the so-called Smart Grid, and is NIST directly funding any Smart Grid activities in Fiscal Year 2014? Dr. Gallagher. So the quick answer, of course, is that NIST will remain very involved with the private sector-led effort. In the United States almost all standards efforts are led by the private sector. And the mandate given to NIST is twofold. One is to support those efforts and the other is to act as the go-between between the standards bodies and Federal needs so between the Energy Department, the energy regulators, and so forth. So we would need to be--remain involved. Our role will increasingly be technical, supplying the technical underpinnings of those standards, whether they are data communication standards or tested measurement standards. And we do anticipate continuing to provide support to that effort in '14 and beyond. Chairman Massie. Just quickly if you could answer quickly, how much money do you think will be spent in 2014 on the Smart Grid from NIST? Dr. Gallagher. Well, the amount that we have reallocated mostly from internal reprioritization is between $3 to $4 million a year in both technical and coordination. Chairman Massie. Okay. Thank you very much. My time is expired. And I now recognize Ms. Wilson for five minutes. Ms. Wilson. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Dr. Gallagher, as you know, over the past several years our Nation has experienced historic and devastating natural disasters and numerous communities across America are still recovering and rebuilding. Hurricane Sandy was the Nation's costliest storm since Katrina, killing hundreds of people in its path and causing billions of dollars in damage. I am pleased to see that the budget request includes an additional $5 million to support NIST's work in the area of disaster resilience. Can you please describe this initiative and the activities NIST intends to undertake to improve the performance of buildings and infrastructure in the face of a disaster? Dr. Gallagher. Thank you. I believe you know this is a critical area, as you know, because of the potential impact it has on so many. The NIST role actually ties to the answer I just gave the Chairman, which is to support the standards setting. And in this case, for resiliency, what we are often talking about are standards that are written in a way that they become model codes. In the United States building structures, houses are regulated or managed if you will at the local level. Local building codes determine the standard of performance that we expect in our built infrastructure. And the way we ensure the built infrastructure is protected is twofold. One, we support, technically, a set of standards that can be adopted by local jurisdictions. They are called model codes. And two, we try to learn from experience. Unfortunately, in the case of disasters, we learn when something terrible has happened. And the NIST program is designed to work with local communities, to understand why certain types of damage was experienced in the face of a natural disaster, whether it is earthquake, wind, fire, and to basically reflect that new understanding by improving the building code standards. And this has become critically important, and the NIST effort is designed to approach this from a multi-hazard perspective so that we can quickly identify lessons learned, come to an understanding about how do we improve our built infrastructure, and then work with the buildings and code communities to make those improvements. Ms. Wilson. Thank you. One other question. I have a little bit of time. I understand that the budget includes a $25 million increase to create Manufacturing Technology Acceleration Centers, MTACs, as part of the Manufacturing Extension Partnership, MEP program. As you know, small businesses are the top job creators and the lifeblood of our economy. In your testimony, you described how this new program would provide technology transition services to small manufacturers. Please elaborate on this new program. Specifically, how will these centers and their focus areas be selected? Also, how does this program build upon or relate to the existing supply chain and technology acceleration services being provided by the MEP centers? Dr. Gallagher. Thank you. So the Manufacturing Technology Acceleration Centers are a concept that is based on your observation, which is the small and mid-sized companies are where most of the employment growth and job growth occur, including manufacturing. It is also increasingly where the innovation is occurring. You know, new technologies and processes are being developed by small and mid-sized manufacturers, and large companies don't support those manufacturers in the way they did in the past. The relationship between the big OEM manufacturers in the supply chain has certainly changed over time, and that has resulted in changes for MEP. So what we are trying to do is, through a grant program, issue a grant to an organization or center that would develop services that are technical in nature and would be addressing a particular supply chain. And this would--this--whatever--these services, these--let's--let me give you an example. Let's say we wanted to support advanced aerospace companies that want to be suppliers into the aerospace industry. Well, if you want to be a supplier to aerospace, you are going to have to learn how to work in their environment, what their expectations are to meet their certification requirements and have the tools and quality assurance that you need to be an effective supplier in aerospace. What we would like to do is work with experts in the aerospace industry to develop services that small--that can be offered to small and mid-sized manufacturers that have this interest. So the MTAC centers would develop this content and it can be deployed through the entire national network of existing MEP centers. That is the idea behind MTAC. It is a supply chain focus, a technology focus for the MEP network. Ms. Wilson. Okay. Thank you. Chairman Massie. Thank you very much. The Chair now recognizes Mr. Schweikert from Arizona for five minutes. Mr. Schweikert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Doctor, what you get to do is fascinating and some of the things you oversee, but I have always had first one global question. Think of everything you oversee, everything that is done at NIST. Can you walk me through some of the activities that could be found nowhere else, no university, no tech center, nowhere else that solely, solely exist at NIST? Dr. Gallagher. I sure can. And I thank you for the appreciation of the work. The most unique thing that you would find it NIST that you would find nowhere else are those activities that have been given to NIST and no one else. And they actually go to our core mission, and that is we define the basis of measurement for the United States---- Mr. Schweikert. Mr. Chairman, Doctor--okay. And that is almost the constitutional carve-out. Dr. Gallagher. That is correct. Mr. Schweikert. But many of those measurements are actually, you know, MIT or those--will help build the standards but NIST will refine them and publish them? Dr. Gallagher. Well, in the case of the actual measurement standards, it is the research even underneath that is probably unique to NIST. And so if you look at areas where NIST is-- leads the world in its scientific capability, it tends to be in the areas where we have to be at the forefront because the basis of a measurement--let's say the definition of time--has to be more accurate than any application of that measurement. And so we tend to be at the forefront in those particular areas. Mr. Schweikert. Okay. Mr. Chairman--Doctor, so--okay. The measurement standards, what else? Dr. Gallagher. The other areas would be ones that have resulted from the standards coordination function. And they tend to be in these system areas, so cybersecurity. The nature of the cybersecurity research at NIST, because of the interface between both the Government needs and industry tend to be quite different than something you would find anywhere else. Mr. Schweikert. And Doctor, you are telling me I could not find that anywhere else in the Nation or in America? Dr. Gallagher. Well, it is always dangerous to say that because you are going to find cybersecurity research all over the world in fact, but the composition of the research program at NIST would look different. So it depends what you mean by overlap. Mr. Schweikert. And one of the natures of my question is so often we sort of have I guess the pop culture term is mission creep of NIST, you know, its core function of being, you know, the czar of time and measurements and it is almost a constitutional requirement. And yet we often ask you to do so many other things and reach into other activities. And I am-- the more I am, you know, here in Congress, starting to wonder should we actually be pushing you the other direction and focus on your core competence and stay out of some of the other affiliated activities? Dr. Gallagher. Well, I don't know if you would have to push us much because we try to stay close to our core competency as well. I have always believed that as an agency, mission focus is one of the most important things you maintain. Mission creep---- Mr. Schweikert. But even some of the discussion we were just having with the supply chain, I can take you to a dozen universities around the country that literally have a mission statement that sounded exactly like you just described. Dr. Gallagher. But they don't have a mission to provide--in fact, a lot of their capability in fact is working with NIST, so---- Mr. Schweikert. But they maintain some of the--but their mission statement, they are almost duplicative. Being from Arizona where you think about our level of aerospace---- Dr. Gallagher. Right. Mr. Schweikert. --and technology and the some of the--at our engineering school at ASU and others where they are also helping with some of the supply chain technology and being able to, you know, become a provider--preferred providers and mechanics. It was amusing only because of the irony of, I think, I was hearing this on Tuesday from some folks from the engineering school saying almost the exact same language you just spoke. Dr. Gallagher. But in the case of the MTAC program it is not so much technical activity at the agency. It is a grant program that would in fact--maybe it would fund work in Arizona to provide--what we are providing is just the connection with all these--the hundreds of thousands of manufacturers through-- -- Mr. Schweikert. And Mr. Chairman--Doctor, you don't believe those relationships, those contacts happen in dozens of other functions whether it be associations, that thing called the Internet? Dr. Gallagher. Well, I certainly believe that there is many--I do believe there are many ways of providing that and one of them is the NIST program to provide that outreach by partnering with the States. Mr. Schweikert. Okay. Dr. Gallagher. You are right, that is not unique. Mr. Schweikert. And I know it is always uncomfortable having actually run a government agency at one time where we are getting pulled because we, you know, our available talent and getting pulled away from our core mission, and particularly in a world with budget restraint and lots of talent and the ability to share it and communicate it, it is something I am going to continue to try to understand better in NIST, and you may see me being a very aggressive advocate of support and making sure you have the resources on your core and being very concerned about moving away from that. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman Massie. Now, we are in the second round of questioning and to start again I will yield myself five minutes. Dr. Gallagher, one of the more interesting things that I witnessed at--during my trip to NIST were the user facilities, or the user centers, where outside researchers or even commercial institutions could come and use your facilities, and some of them are very unique such as the nuclear reactor that provides a stream of neutrons to bombard things to give us visibility into the invisible and also the micromachining tools that use ion beams. These tools are very expensive and hard for other people to acquire, and so I sort of like the library-- type model that you have there where outside parties can come and use those. Of course, one measurement of whether those tools are the right tools to provide is whether the usage level of those. And I was encouraged to hear that you are somewhat oversubscribed for those tools. So my question is in trying to offset the cost for those, there are fees charged to commercial entities. And how close do those fees come to providing for the cost of those tools and how could you get closer to break-even? I am almost certain it doesn't break-even, but how could you come closer to breakeven? Could you--should you maybe raise the price on those if they are oversubscribed? Thank you. Dr. Gallagher. So in the case of national user facilities in the United States, there are two types of cost recovery that can be done. One is federal--supporting federally funded research. And both of the facilities you identified predominantly are used by researchers that are funded by other Federal agencies doing the work. And the long-standing U.S. position there has been rather than charge one agency to pay for the services at another through a user fee to basically--it is the steward-partner model. The stewarding agency that runs the facility operates the cost and provides the beam time on purely a merit basis, on the quality of the proposal without charging a fee. And it has been found over a long period of time that that results in the decisions being based on the best science for this limited capability rather than the capacity to pay. In the case of company use, when a company is going to use a unique capability like this for their own purposes and capture the data and not publish it--in other words, there is no public benefit--we charge full cost recovery, including the amortization of the facility. And I think the break-even or not just depends on, you know, the fraction of work that is being done proprietary, which tends not to be exceedingly high in these cases. And part of that is by design. These cutting-edge tools tend to be used most often in the precompetitive realm. So---- Chairman Massie. So maybe you could price them at their value instead of at their cost and use some of the--if there is a differential, use some of the extra money to offset the research costs. Dr. Gallagher. Well, the cost recovery rules are in OMB's Circular A-130. I am going to get that wrong, but in one of the OMB circulars. And there are in fact two ways to recover cost. One is by cost recovery, full cost, and the other is by market value. The problem you run into with these unique facilities is how do you determine the market value? Chairman Massie. Right. Well, if it is oversubscribed, then maybe it is underpriced. But I hear your point that some of the subscriptions are from other research labs, not from commercial entities. Dr. Gallagher. Well, again, from a pure science perspective, we like oversubscription because it means that the selection committees are discriminating and really selecting the best of the best. You actually--most grant programs like to see that. So happy to talk to you more---- Chairman Massie. Okay. Dr. Gallagher. --about that if---- Chairman Massie. Thank you. Thank you very much. That is very sufficient. So in the first round of questions we talked about the Manufacturing Technology Acceleration Centers and how that is going to work through the Manufacturing Extension Partnership program. So my question would be there is $25 million in the budget to do this new manufacturing program. If that $25 million is not provided, do you anticipate using funds from the MEP program to work with the MTAC program? Dr. Gallagher. So let me try to clarify. The MTAC program is part of MEP. It is a name we gave to basically grants that are developing content for the MEP rather than the grants that go to the centers that are delivering services. So it is designed to augment what MEP does by giving it technology services that have been developed by that sector. So it is really part of the same program. Chairman Massie. I hate to be a pessimist but if the funding for the MEP program is the same this year as it was last year, will you be able to fund the expansion of its role into the MTAC program using existing MEP funds at all? Dr. Gallagher. Not very much. So the--most of the funding for the MEP goes to the existing centers, so the capacity to develop new content would be quite limited. Obviously, we try to do whatever we could working with private sector developers to come up with content, but it would be limited. Chairman Massie. Thank you. Thank you very much. And now I yield five minutes to the Ranking Member, Ms. Wilson. Ms. Wilson yields her time to Mr. Peters from California. Mr. Peters. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I had a question about the health IT, information technology. There was a $3 million initiative that you refer to, and as I understand, this would expand on the existing efforts in health IT at NIST and would advance work to develop standards and testing for the meaningful use of electronic health records. And I know meaningful use is a term from the ACA with some meaning. You are ultimately going to want to require interoperability between different systems, and I wanted to sort of see if you could maybe elaborate on the current efforts in interoperability and how the new initiative would help the healthcare professionals and hospitals as they are preparing to answer a lot of the open questions about how to implement the ACA. Dr. Gallagher. That is a great question and the NIST role has been to support the functioning of health information technology. And in the early phases, a lot of what our work was promoting the testing tools and validation tools that demonstrated meaningful use. And the idea was to drive the performance of these systems by making sure that they were put into practice by doctors and physicians. So showing that it could, you know, pull up prescription information and be disseminated back to the pharmacy and so forth. Increasingly, now, you are going from sort of stand-alone information technology to a very broad and diffuse system. So as the health IT program matures, interoperability across platforms is going to become a major driver, and that is the next phase of the health IT program. The request is to support the NIST effort to develop compliance tools and validation tools to test the code and function that industry is developing. It is actually not an augmentation of program. The NIST program to date has not received any base funding. It was actually fully supported by one-time Recovery Act funding that in fact expires the end of this year and a limited amount of reprogramming we were able to do from within the agency. Mr. Peters. So--and just to follow up and to clarify, one of the things that is exciting and happening a lot in San Diego is the development of wireless health, digital health. The opportunity say, for instance, to monitor a person's cardiac performance or their glucose levels from a remote location that might save money on things like office visits or emergency ambulance rides or emergency room stays. One of the things we are going to have to think about is how to make those systems mesh with these records systems. And I want to know kind of is that part of your effort or is that something you anticipate getting involved in? Dr. Gallagher. That is very much part of the effort both from the functionality and from the security and privacy aspects that are going to come with that kind of technology. Mr. Peters. Right. Well, I wish you the best. It is a lot of opportunity. I believe you can only cut doctors' pay so much and raise taxes so much. A lot of what innovation can provide is new and cheaper ways to accomplish the goals that really will reduce the healthcare costs and that will depend a lot, as you know, on the ability of NIST to set standards that everyone can work off of as they innovate. So I appreciate your being here today. Thank you. Dr. Gallagher. Thank you. Chairman Massie. I am now honored to recognize for five minutes the Chairman of the full Committee, Chairman Smith. Chairman Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Gallagher, first of all, thank you for your commitment to public service, which has extended over many years. That is rare, but admirable. I have a couple questions. The first is in Fiscal Year 2013 and in Fiscal Year 2014 how much money do you anticipate will be spent by NIST in implementing the Administration's February Executive Order on cybersecurity? Dr. Gallagher. So that is--we haven't scraped up a separate budget account to track that closely---- Chairman Smith. Actually, that was my next question. What accounts is it going to come from? Dr. Gallagher. It is going to come--it is largely leveraging our work in our cybersecurity division. Chairman Smith. If you don't know 2014, what about 2013? Dr. Gallagher. Roughly for this year---- Chairman Smith. Yes. Dr. Gallagher. --which is sort of the primary scope of the Executive Order, it is about $3 million that we anticipate. That sounds amazingly small given the tasking that was in the Executive Order, but the magic sauce is that we really want industry to develop this framework. And so most of those costs are supporting the coordination and sort of pulling together all of the material coming in from all of these sectors and managing the discussions that will help pull the framework together. Chairman Smith. So you are going to try to leverage that $3 million and increase it exponentially through the private sector? Dr. Gallagher. As far as we can. Chairman Smith. Okay. Gosh, you are right. That seems an awfully small amount. What about 2014, about the same, more? What would you expect? Dr. Gallagher. So I think that looking in the out-years I envision the framework that is being developed. It cannot be a one-time develop-and-stop. The technology we are talking about is too dynamic. What I really hope happens is something akin to Smart Grid where the--this--as we pull this together the first time, the private sector begins to continuously manage and fine-tune this framework. That will actually drive the NIST technical programs because that will result in questions about, you know, how do we address identity management or roots of trust or better cryptography or other forms of technical solutions that that industry will need. And that is actually reflected in our '14 request that $8 million of R&D base is designed to support what is becoming a very stretched out technical capability at NIST. Chairman Smith. Okay. Thank you. Next question, different subject. In regard to these new manufacturing centers, what metrics would you recommend that we use to evaluate these programs? Dr. Gallagher. Well, the ultimate goal is a long-term one. It should increase the rate of innovation by the participating companies. This is about creating the modern equivalent of Bell Labs. You are trying to get a group of companies collaborating and sharing and leveraging each other to do what used to be done by large, vertically integrated monopolies. And you should see the same kind of innovation. In the short-term, what I hope you see is this incentivizes an increase in private sector investment in R&D. It pulls their investments upstream. Chairman Smith. But both regarding current programs and, as you said, the proposed augmented programs, how do you evaluate them? Are there any specific metrics, any specific data we ought to be looking for to gauge their success? Dr. Gallagher. Well, I mean so, you know, measuring technology's success is always a tricky thing. We have economists who try to study that because the ideas diffuse into different products. You can certainly look at rates of IP generation and patent filings. You can look at new company startups that are going to happen as a result of this. In some cases, one of the problems is that some of the most exciting things a company pulls in and they don't tell us about--in fact, sometimes we know the most exciting work is when they stop telling us about it--and in some cases you don't see the payoff until quite a bit later as you see new products and services going in. So I think from a measurement perspective, how do we measure success, it is going to have be a layered set of things: some early indicators that indicate that this is starting to be pulled together and then we are going to have to continue to monitor this for a long time to see some of the economic payoffs in markets and new products and services and so forth. Chairman Smith. Okay. Thank you, Dr. Gallagher. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Massie. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I now yield five minutes to Ranking Member, Ms. Wilson. Ms. Wilson. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Dr. Gallagher, in your testimony you mentioned the need to support the manufacture of emerging technologies, including biomanufacturing. Specifically, you discussed efforts that could help create new manufacturing paradigms for using cells as factories for fuel, pharmaceuticals and specialty chemicals. These efforts align with the White House's report, the National Bioeconomy Blueprint, a strategic plan to help the Nation realize the potential of the economic activity fueled by research and innovation in the bioeconomy. Would you please describe your efforts in biomanufacturing and how these activities will help the Nation attain the benefits of the bioeconomy? Dr. Gallagher. Thank you. I would be happy to. Of course, you know, the explosion of understanding in bioscience is probably the most dramatic scientific development in my career. It has been a game-changer. The NIST role is very simple. It is our core mission. It is to advance the measurement science in biotechnology and particularly the measurement science that controls our--the adoption of this technology. And what I think it means and what the focus of our request is really in two areas. One is the production using biology to produce things is becoming mainstream. It is becoming a manufacturing process. And we do not have the process measurement tools to control and reproducibly, repeatedly, reliably produce high-quality materials. If we can't do that, these things will never achieve the scale and the cost reduction of market to make it a viable production technology. And the second area where measurements are playing a major role is in supporting the demonstration of safety and efficacy. And you see this no more clearly in the pharmaceutical area where the pace of technological development, our ability to, let's say, make a new vaccine is much, much faster now than our capacity to regulate it and demonstrate its safety and efficacy. And you see this increasing mismatch. And one of the things we talk about very closely with FDA and others is can we provide a rich measurement so we can understand the biomolecule that we have produced in a way that would really facilitate a rapid and effective, you know, protection of the public as well. So both in the regulation and the production we think our-- the maturity of measurement science is one of the limiting steps, and that would be the area that NIST would focus in. Ms. Wilson. That is fantastic. My other question, as part of the budget request, you are proposing $20 million for the creation of four NIST Centers of Excellence. The budget request describes these centers as ``interdisciplinary environments where NIST academic and industry researchers will collaborate on basic and applied research focused on innovations and measurement science and new technology development.'' Certainly, the success of NIST current research collaborations with the University of Colorado and the University of Maryland is in some part due to the presence of NIST and its scientists in these geographic locations. How is NIST planning to ensure the active and full participation of its scientists in these proposed Centers of Excellence? And what research areas do you envision these centers focusing on? And do you plan to put one in Miami? Dr. Gallagher. We hope Miami submits a great proposal. So we would like to do this competitively, and the Centers of Excellence program is very simple. It is designed to facilitate a partnership to expand the effectiveness of NIST's mission. It is kind of a selfish initiative. This is about making NIST do its core mission better. The example you gave about JILA at the University of Colorado is a great example. For more than 50 years, we have been able to sustain with NIST staff working right alongside top academic researchers a state-of-the-art effort in research that is essential to our core mission: producing better clocks and understanding time and some of the quantum measurement. It has allowed us to be at the forefront. And I don't think that example is unique. I think that there are many cases where rather than NIST simply going into its labs and doing it by itself, by working with others in partnership, we actually achieve our mission better. There is a lot of competition for what the area--the best area can be and so we are going to both compete this internally to identify the areas of--that offer the most, and that is how we involve our scientists--offer the most engagement and benefit. It could be biosciences, which is a big growth area for NIST. It could be an environment where we are working much closer with industry. And then once we have identified the technical area where we think we get the most mission impact, we are going to do an open competition where universities and other stakeholders can propose and give us their ideas for how a partnership would be most effective. And so we certainly hope Miami is going to be a participant or any other area be a participant in that competitive process. Ms. Wilson. Thank you. That is exciting. Chairman Massie. Thank you very much. I now yield five minutes to Mr. Hultgren from Illinois. Mr. Hultgren. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you so much for being here. A couple questions. First, in the Fiscal Year 2014 NIST budget request, more than half of the proposed increase in funding would be focused on advanced manufacturing efforts. While recognizing manufacturing is very important to our Nation and economy, a lot of this new funding is focused in areas of technology and knowledge transfer. I am concerned that the core long-term research that supports manufacturing is going to be left behind as the Institute advances initiatives that provide more short- term band aids. When the infusion of cash has gone out the door, are you confident we will have not lost focus on longer- term needs in manufacturing? Dr. Gallagher. So I may not understand the concern because the majority of the NIST funding is in fact in long-term areas. It is core research in measurement science that is related to the highest growth, in other words, the newest technology areas in advanced manufacturing. So it is enhancing our capacity to support the metrology or measurement science needed for nano-- production of nano materials or biomaterials or for some of the standards support we are going to have to do for some of the advanced system integration and smart manufacturing and smart-- so, you know, it looks like a big refocus for NIST into manufacturing, but remember, NIST, since 1901, has sort of been industry's national lab. We--the truth of the matter is almost all of NIST has been related to manufacturing in one way or another for its entire history. And so this program is really focused on developing the core capacity in our laboratory program where very much part of our core mission so that we can support what is the fastest- moving areas of industry. Mr. Hultgren. Yes, my--I am a broken record here. Fighting for research and fighting for what only we can do and what other--private sector can't do, the free market can't do and where I feel like when we have got extra resources, I think it is great to get more into the application and into the applying. My focus is to make sure that we are not taking money away that should go to research when that money is so limited. Let me go on to another question. How does NIST balance short-term, low-risk, low-reward research projects versus long- term, high-risk, high-reward research projects when making funding decisions? And just kind of a follow-up on that--or a couple of follow-ups--how does NIST determine the proportion of basic research versus applied research projects when allocating funding? And I wonder is there a balance that, as Director, you look to maintain across your activities between the more fundamental versus the more applied type of work that NIST funds? Dr. Gallagher. So the lens I always use for those decisions is our mission effectiveness. And that tends to mean that a large proportion of our work is actually in very basic areas. And that actually touches on the point you raised, which is uniqueness. That is the role that we can play that others will not play. Industry is taken to very short-cycle research. So it would not make sense for NIST to be heavily involved in very applied research or development. The mix I think comes from relevance. It wouldn't do any good for NIST to have this beautiful academic research that was irrelevant to application and industry, and so the balance tends to come exclusively from making sure we have the capacity to do that cutting-edge research, to stay ahead of the measurement science or this very core NIST mission, but also have an understanding of how that measurement science is applied in real world technology so that the translation is effective. Mr. Hultgren. My encouragement in that is just to--I know that is an always-changing balance, but especially when resources are tight to have it focused on that basic research and research again that no one else can do. And then the applied research is always an option when there is additional resources, but we have got to make sure that we have got that core mission in place. Let me move on still. My time is limited. But wondering what NIST is doing to measure and evaluate the economic impact of its programs. Dr. Gallagher. So we have a program that does--in fact has developed sort of one of the leading methodologies for looking at economic impact of its work. As you--as I was pointing out earlier, that is a complicated business, but we will routinely take several of our programs a year and then do a retrospective economic analysis to ascertain the economic payoff, the economic benefit. And of course with such a diverse agency, these tend to be rather diverse studies in terms of how we do that. We are--the other way we do that is by industry validation. The Visiting Committee on Advanced Technology, our leading advisory committee, is made up predominantly of chief technology officers at that level from companies, and we routinely ask them to make sure that our work is relevant to them. That is not economic study but it is a relevancy assessment if you will. Mr. Hultgren. Okay. I just have a few seconds left, but if I can, I got here a little bit late and just would love to get your thoughts. Brain science is something very interesting to me, very concerning to me of some of the diseases. How do we improve the understanding and treatment of autism, Alzheimer's, and other neurological disorders? And what role do you see NIST playing in standards and technology surrounding various drug compounds or other therapeutics that could help us improve people's lives in the long run? Dr. Gallagher. Well, I appreciate the question. It--you know, and this is going to sound like a broken record, too. I think our role is actually in the measurement science piece of this. In fact, we are already getting a lot of demand from both universities, companies, and other Federal agencies to support some of the very difficult, very challenging measurements associated with neurological disease, understanding brain function, measuring brain function, measuring misfolded proteins, understanding--these are areas that--where the--our ability to measure, particularly measure in living beings and not under laboratory conditions is very immature. And so that is one of the areas--that is why biosciences has come up as an area where we have really got to come up to speed in supporting those advances in measurement science. Mr. Hultgren. I agree. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your indulgence. I yield back. Chairman Massie. Thank you very much for your questions. We are going to do at least a third round of questions and I will begin by yielding myself another five minutes. My first question would be--and I want to ask a series of short questions and I don't require anything but short answers. When you talk about cybersecurity funding at NIST, what portion of that should be public domain and what portion of that should be classified? And is NIST really the right place to be doing cybersecurity research or should we be doing it in a more closed environment? Dr. Gallagher. So NIST is the place where you would want to put the non-classified work. You know, you have got to have capability to develop--the capability to protect in commercial technology. So if all the research is classified, then the translation to practice and putting it into industry when it is global markets is actually hampered. And so the NIST role is almost all unclassified. Chairman Massie. Okay. That is a great lead-in to my next question, which is it seems like the rates of technology transfer are higher, and I am asking this question because this might be one of the metrics of success at an institution such as NIST. But it seems like the rates of technology transfer are higher at universities, particularly research universities like MIT or Caltech than they are at NIST. And what could you do to improve the rates of technology transfer at NIST? Dr. Gallagher. So we are actually very actively trying to increase rates of technology transfer at NIST by targeting our SBIR program, making it more focused, by promoting tech transfer by our research staff and making sure that this is a valued activity. But I want to emphasize, you know, the role of NIST is to drive things into practice, but it will not look the same way that measuring entrepreneurial startups would look for a major university. We don't--you know, our role is not to have Federal employees go off and start companies and then come back and do some of those activities. So what we are trying to do is work with all the--in fact, all of the Federal agencies to broaden and develop a more nuanced understanding of tech transfer means. And so NIST has been working with OMB and other Federal agencies to--and we would like to actually work with you on that as well. Chairman Massie. So you keep leading me to my next question. You must be reading my mind or you have a camera up here. My next question concerns SBIRs and I have some experience in my private background of working with SBIRs. And my question to you would be, as Congress here, we sort of dictate how much extramural and intramural spending that you can do, and as far as the SBIR program goes, I would like your personal opinion on would you rather see more funding toward SBIRs and less on your, for instance, intramural programs? Or would you rather see it the other way around? Or have we, as Congressmen, achieved the perfect balance in giving you that money and dictating how much is intramural and extramural? Dr. Gallagher. That is one of those eye-of-the-beholder questions. It depends. So clearly, we like the--and NIST is predominantly intramural, and our SBIR program is consequently quite small. I think we are fairly close to the right answer. I haven't had a major desire to see it move one way or the other. I am of the belief, though, that we can do much more to make sure that the SBIR funds that are allocated are much more effective. And that has been the big improvement we have been focused on is you need to step back and strategically look at that investment. It is quite unique. It is one of the only investments we make into innovative, small, startup companies. And I would like to see it punch its weight more. Chairman Massie. And my final question in this series is NIST has impressive rates of employee and staff retention. It seems like when people go to NIST, they like it and they don't leave. And that allows you to do long-term projects that would be harder to do with a lot of turnover. On the other hand, university--the university model is that you kick them out of the nest and you don't want too much retention because then you kind of reach this stasis. So how do you avoid getting into a rut at NIST when you have such great employee and staff retention? Dr. Gallagher. Yes, you are exactly right. For an agency that has to have long-term research roots, the stability is in fact very desirable. It is actually quite competitive, and so any other science--you also want churn. You want this lifeblood of new, young people coming right out of school with fresh ideas. And so it has been very important for us to have a very aggressive postdoc program, to have guest researcher programs, and to have this fluidity of new ideas and engagement while having a core cadre of senior scientists that in fact are there. That is a perpetual management challenge that we manage all the time but it is very important. Chairman Massie. Thank you, Dr. Gallagher. And I yield five minutes to Ranking Member, Ms. Wilson. Ms. Wilson. Thank you, Chair Massie. Dr. Gallagher, one of my colleagues expressed concern about ``mission creep'' at NIST. However, as I recall the mission of NIST, it is to promote U.S. innovation and industrial competitiveness by advancing measurement science standards and technology in ways that enhance economic security and improve our quality of life. I believe that this is a broad mission and I don't believe the budget request is pushing NIST outside of its core competencies. Would you agree with that? And do you believe the budget request reflects the mission of NIST? Dr. Gallagher. Yes, I would in the strongest possible terms agree. I think NIST has been true to its mission. Its mission is broad. It includes not only core basic research and measurement science, but supports the small to mid-sized manufacturers, includes the primary responsibility for tech transfer regulation in the United States. I think--and we hold true to that. The challenge we always face is given that broad mission with limited resources, how do you set effective priorities? But I believe wholeheartedly that one of the secrets of success to NIST, you know, now well over 110 years old, is this: it has been true to its mission from the beginning. Ms. Wilson. Okay. Just another question. The release of the National Research Council's Forensic Science Report in 2009, which concluded that forensic system--science system in this country has serious problems served as a wakeup call and has prompted discussions throughout the Federal Government and the stakeholder community about how best to improve forensic science research and practice. I am pleased that the budget request highlights your efforts in forensic science. Can you tell us more about what activities NIST intends to undertake related to forensic science in Fiscal Year 2014 and how NIST is partnering with the Department of Justice to improve forensic science? Dr. Gallagher. Thank you. I--you know, NIST--it is interesting. NIST has actually been involved with forensic science for most of its history. NIST scientists actually predated the establishment of the FBI crime lab and helped work to establish it. NIST worked on the Lindenberg case. So we have actually had a long record here, and the role in fact is our core mission. It is to provide the measurement science underpinnings for forensic measurement. The best example today is DNA, which was held up by the Academy as one of the very effective types of forensic measurement. The NIST staff work--you know, had worked with the community to define the core measurement methodology and sort of the protocols and standards that are used by DNA crime labs, the--and make that technique so reliable. So realizing that that was a model, the announcement we have just had, the working arrangement between NIST and the Department of Justice to strengthen that. And basically, it will be formalized through a joint commission that will be co- chaired by the Justice Department and NIST. It will bring together a broad community of practice from scientists and laboratory officials to criminal prosecutors, defense attorneys and judges. And the goal is twofold. At NIST, our responsibility is to look at areas where the measurement science underpinnings of a forensic technique are not well established. And those tend to be what you might consider a low-tech measurement. How do you compare--what is the reliability of comparing a tire imprint left at a crime scene with a tire and how unique is that measurement and how degraded before you can't say anything about it? It could be in blood serum, it could be in chemical measurements and so forth. So our job will be to do the measurement science and then work with the community of practice to turn that into the types of protocols, standards for laboratories, maybe certification requirements for the expertise of the personnel that do those measurements. And those can be adopted at the state and local level and then the Justice Department will decide whether they will be applicable for Federal crime labs under their jurisdiction. Ms. Wilson. Just let me--I just need to make a comment. Every second, this is so exciting. And I know that the people who work with you and collaborate with you and the people at NIST and--have the most exciting lives in all of this research. This is just amazing. And thank you so much for all that you do for this Nation. Thank you. Chairman Massie. Thank you, Ms. Wilson. I would like to thank Dr. Gallagher for his valuable testimony today and for having so much stamina undergoing three rounds of questioning being the only witness here before us. I thought your answers were excellent. And I also want to thank you and your staff for hosting our visit to NIST a couple weeks ago. I would like to thank the Members for their questions and remind them that the record will remain open for two weeks for additional comments and written questions from Members. Dr. Gallagher is excused and this hearing is adjourned. Thank you. [Whereupon, at 11:10 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]