[House Hearing, 113 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] COMPETITION AND BANKRUPTCY IN THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY: THE PROPOSED MERGER OF AMERICAN AIRLINES AND US AIRWAYS ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON REGULATORY REFORM, COMMERCIAL AND ANTITRUST LAW OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED THIRTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ FEBRUARY 26, 2013 __________ Serial No. 113-22 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Available via the World Wide Web: http://judiciary.house.gov _______ U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 79-583 PDF WASHINGTON : 2013 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; DC area (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2104 Mail: Stop IDCC, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia, Chairman F. JAMES SENSENBRENNER, Jr., JOHN CONYERS, Jr., Michigan Wisconsin JERROLD NADLER, New York HOWARD COBLE, North Carolina ROBERT C. ``BOBBY'' SCOTT, LAMAR SMITH, Texas Virginia STEVE CHABOT, Ohio MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama ZOE LOFGREN, California DARRELL E. ISSA, California SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas J. RANDY FORBES, Virginia STEVE COHEN, Tennessee STEVE KING, Iowa HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., TRENT FRANKS, Arizona Georgia LOUIE GOHMERT, Texas PEDRO R. PIERLUISI, Puerto Rico JIM JORDAN, Ohio JUDY CHU, California TED POE, Texas TED DEUTCH, Florida JASON CHAFFETZ, Utah LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania KAREN BASS, California TREY GOWDY, South Carolina CEDRIC RICHMOND, Louisiana MARK AMODEI, Nevada SUZAN DelBENE, Washington RAUL LABRADOR, Idaho JOE GARCIA, Florida BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas HAKEEM JEFFRIES, New York GEORGE HOLDING, North Carolina DOUG COLLINS, Georgia RON DeSANTIS, FLORIDA KEITH ROTHFUS, Pennsylvania Shelley Husband, Chief of Staff & General Counsel Perry Apelbaum, Minority Staff Director & Chief Counsel ------ Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama, Chairman BLAKE FARENTHOLD, Texas, Vice-Chairman DARRELL E. ISSA, California STEVE COHEN, Tennessee TOM MARINO, Pennsylvania HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr., GEORGE HOLDING, North Carolina Georgia DOUG COLLINS, Georgia SUZAN DelBENE, Washington KEITH ROTHFUS, Pennsylvania JOE GARCIA, Florida HAKEEM JEFFRIES, New York Daniel Flores, Chief Counsel James Park, Minority Counsel C O N T E N T S ---------- FEBRUARY 26, 2013 Page OPENING STATEMENTS The Honorable Spencer Bachus, a Representative in Congress from the State of Alabama, and Chairman, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law........................... 1 The Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan, Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary, and Member, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law................................... 2 The Honorable Bob Goodlatte, a Representative in Congress from the State of Virginia, and Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary 5 The Honorable Steve Cohen, a Representative in Congress from the State of Tennessee, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law................ 7 WITNESSES Gary F. Kennedy, Senior Vice President, General Counsel and Chief Compliance Officer, American Airlines Oral Testimony................................................. 23 Prepared Statement............................................. 25 Stephen L. Johnson, Executive Vice President, Corporate and Government Affairs, US Airways, Inc. Oral Testimony................................................. 27 Prepared Statement............................................. 30 Kevin Mitchell, Chairman, Business Travel Coalition (BTC) Oral Testimony................................................. 43 Prepared Statement............................................. 46 Christopher L. Sagers, James A. Thomas Distinguished Professor of Law, Cleveland State University Oral Testimony................................................. 100 Prepared Statement............................................. 102 Clifford Winston, Senior Fellow, Economic Studies Program, The Brookings Institution Oral Testimony................................................. 111 Prepared Statement............................................. 113 LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan, and Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary..................... 3 Material submitted by the Honorable Steve Cohen, a Representative in Congress from the State of Tennessee, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law 8 Additional Material submitted by the Honorable Steve Cohen, a Representative in Congress from the State of Tennessee, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law.............................................. 16 Prepared Statement of the Honorable Henry C. ``Hank'' Johnson, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of Georgia, and Member, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law.................................................. 21 APPENDIX Material Submitted for the Hearing Record Material submitted by the Honorable Steve Cohen, a Representative in Congress from the State of Tennessee, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law 146 Prepared Statement of Paul Hudson, President, Flyersrights.org, and Executive Director, Aviation Consumer Action Project....... 199 Response to Questions for the Record from Stephen L. Johnson, Executive Vice President, Corporate and Government Affairs, US Airways, Inc................................................... 222 Response to Questions for the Record from Gary F. Kennedy, Senior Vice President, General Counsel and Chief Compliance Officer, American Airlines.............................................. 225 Response to Questions for the Record from Christopher L. Sagers, James A. Thomas Distinguished Professor of Law, Cleveland State University..................................................... 227 COMPETITION AND BANKRUPTCY IN THE AIRLINE INDUSTRY: THE PROPOSED MERGER OF AMERICAN AIRLINES AND US AIRWAYS ---------- TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 26, 2013 House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law Committee on the Judiciary, Washington, DC. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:02 a.m., in room 2141, Rayburn Office Building, the Honorable Spencer Bachus (Chairman of the Subcommittee) presiding. Present: Representatives Bachus, Goodlatte, Farenthold, Marino, Holding, Collins, Rothfus, Cohen, Conyers, Johnson, Delbene, Garcia, and Jeffries. Staff present: (Majority) John Hilton, Counsel; Ashley Lewis, Clerk; (Minority) Perry Apelbaum, Staff Director & Chief Counsel; James Park, Minority Counsel; Veronica Eligan, Professional Staff Member. Mr. Bachus. Good morning. The Judiciary Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law is in session. By way of introduction, this is the first hearing of the year for the Subcommittee. Chairman Goodlatte has given me the great privilege of Chairing this Subcommittee. And under its antitrust jurisdiction, the Judiciary Committee has the duty to examine the competitive impacts of significant transactions on the marketplace. It is responsibility that I take very seriously from the standpoint of consumer choice and the functioning of free markets. Today's hearing is specifically to examine the proposed merger between American Airlines and US Airways. The resulting airline with a 24 percent market share would become the largest of what might be called the four legacy U.S. carriers. The Department of Justice will conduct a detailed review of the proposed merger under the Hart-Scott-Rodino Act. There will be several other layers of scrutiny both here and in the U.S. and in Europe. This hearing is intended to provide information to the public, not to state a Subcommittee policy position, although I think there obviously will be independent--I mean, each Member will have independent opinions, and obviously are free to state those. The airline has been in a state of near constant change and innovation since Federal deregulation in 1978. We have a marketplace or we have a marketplace in which familiar names that most of us grew up with, like Pan Am, TWA if you traveled overseas, or in the south, Eastern, and Republic, and Southern no longer exist. They have either merged, bankrupted, or gone out of existence. But we have also seen the emergence of new carriers with different business models, like Southwest and Virgin. The embracing of electronic technology has created online booking and instant price comparison tools that have greatly benefitted travel by expanding choice. That is the competitive free enterprise system at work and is the cornerstone of our economy. However, there are questions that naturally arise during airline mergers and issues that have confronted some of the mergers. And today's hearing offers an appropriate forum to address those. The issue that many consumers would be interested in knowing about, to the extent it can be answered, is the potential impact on their cost of flying. Service routes are also a concern as are the levels of service that will be offered post-merger at the current hubs of American and US Airways. From a broad competitive perspective, there is the issue of airline market share at individual airports and the overall market share held by major carriers and the prospects and implications of future consolidation. Our goal today is to facilitate discussion just as consumers are served by clear and transparent pricing, so when they shop online for a plane ticket they are served by good information by comparing different points of views. We welcome all our witnesses and look forward to your testimony. I now recognize the Ranking Member for his opening statement. Mr. Conyers. Thank you. Mr. Bachus. Either one, whatever. Mr. Cohen. I yield to Mr. Conyers. I always yield to Mr. Conyers. Mr. Bachus. Thank you. Mr. Cohen. An honor to serve with Mr. Conyers. He is Mr. Rosa Parks. Mr. Bachus. I have served with him, too, and I would recognize him first. Mr. Conyers. Well, I thank you both for your generosity. We come here today looking at a very important part of the economic system that has guided this country. And I have always worried during previous airline mergers, and without prejudging the merits of the ones that brings us here today. We should recall that both parties to this merger bear a high burden in demonstrating that further consolidation in the airline industry is warranted. One of the arguments advanced in favor of some past mergers--Delta, Northwest, United, Continental--was the claim that there was too much capacity in the industry, which led to excessively low fares that prevented carriers, particularly so-called legacy carriers with their higher costs, from earning a sufficient income. We ought to consider whether this is still the case. While American is in bankruptcy--pardon me--it is poised to successfully reorganize with billions of dollars in cash and reduce costs as a result of reorganization. Moreover, US Airways posted record profits. These facts suggest that both airlines are, in fact, perfectly capable of surviving, even thriving, as stand-alone companies. Industry consolidation may benefit the airlines that remain by giving them power to raise fares and fees, but it comes with costs to the consumer. And as has been noted, it may result in higher fares, fewer consumer choices, particularly in hubs and city fares where two carriers overlap. In retrospective studies of the effects of Delta, Northwest, United, Continental mergers, it suggests that, in fact, fares did rise on some routes where the two merger partners used to compete. Given the size of the big three, legacy airlines that would remain after the merger, it is not entirely unreasonable to suggest that they would have even greater power to tacitly agree to raise prices, undermining price competition and harming consumers in the process. Indeed, if American and US Airways were to merge, more than 70 percent, and by some estimates as high as 86 percent, of the domestic airline industry would be controlled by just four airlines. I fear that the flying public will see relatively few benefits while bearing much of the costs of this potential merger. Another related issue is whether the low-cost carriers can continue to provide effective competitive pressure on what will be the big three legacy airlines should this merger occur. One of the arguments I hear most often in the prior airline consolidations was that the industry would remain very competitive after consolidation because the competition against large carriers, which were able to offer lower fares because of their lower operating costs. But of the LLCs, however, only Southwest is large enough to compete nationwide against the large legacy carriers. And there is reason to wonder whether Southwest will continue to play the traditional role of an LLC in competing on ticket prices given that it is now part of the big airline club. And finally, we must consider what impact this will have on workers at the two carriers. In stark contrast to previous airline mergers, the unions representing American and US Airways, with the exception of the machinists, have come out in public support of this merger. And the machinists have said that they could support it, but only after US Airways renews its contract with their own members first. Indeed, America's unions have been instrumental in pushing for this merger. And so I will submit the rest of my statement, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for your generosity. [The prepared statement of Mr. Conyers follows:] Prepared Statement of the Honorable John Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of Michigan, Ranking Member, Committee on the Judiciary, and Member, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law This first hearing of the Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law in the 113th Congress is as good a time as any to remind ourselves that the main purpose of antitrust law is to ensure that business does not behave in ways that injures markets, and, ultimately, consumers. In the context of mergers, this means that any transaction that would result in a firm having market power--that is, the ability to raise prices or otherwise harm consumers without losing their business--is contrary to basic antitrust policy. So it is hardly a radical notion that we ought to be suspicious when there has been a rapid succession of mergers in a given industry. In my view, the very fact that many industries end up being dominated by just a handful of very large firms should disturb us, as basic economics and common sense should tell us that a few dominant firms will raise prices on consumers and offer them suboptimal products or services in exchange. Yet, over the last generation, we have seen a wave of mergers in industry after industry, including among large, direct competitors. Just a few examples include the Whirlpool-Maytag, AT&T-BellSouth, AOL- Time Warner, and JPMorganChase-BankOne. In the banking industry alone there have been 47 mergers since 2001. And during this time, merger review and antitrust enforcement did not, in my view, account sufficiently for consumers' interests. This hands-off approach to antitrust merger enforcement reflected the view that corporate power should trump other interests, including the public interest. For a long time, the trend in antitrust law was against the American consumer. While I am hopeful that the nearly blind acceptance of the validity of mergers is coming to an end, I briefly review this history of mergers and antitrust because I wanted to place our consideration of the proposed merger of American Airlines and US Airways in proper context. Nearly five years ago, I chaired a hearing on the then-proposed merger of Delta Air Lines and Northwest Airlines before what was then the Task Force on Competition Policy and Antitrust Laws. I noted during that hearing that the deal raised several potential concerns, including that in the wake of several airline mergers up to that time, consumers had been prejudiced as delays increased, service declined, and fares rose. I also expressed concern that should the Delta-Northwest transaction be approved, it would spark a cascade of other mergers, such as between United Airlines and Continental Airlines and between American Airlines and US Airways, leading potentially to an unwarranted level of concentration in the airline industry. It appears that I was right to worry. In fact, two years after that hearing, United and Continental did merge, and today we have for our consideration the proposed merger of American Airlines and US Airways. While I do not wish to pre-judge the merits of an American-US Airways merger, there are several issues that the Department of Justice and other regulators should keep in mind when reviewing this deal. To begin with, the parties to the merger bear a high burden in demonstrating that further consolidation in the airline industry is warranted. One of the arguments advanced in favor of the Delta-Northwest and United-Continental mergers was the claim that there was too much capacity in the industry, which led to excessively low fares that prevented carriers--and particularly the so-called ``legacy'' carriers, with their higher costs--from earning a sufficient income. We ought to consider, however, whether this is still the case. While American is in bankruptcy, it is poised to successfully reorganize, with billions of dollars in cash and reduced costs as a result of its reorganization. Moreover, US Airways posted record profits last year. These facts suggest that both airlines are, in fact, perfectly capable of surviving, and even thriving, as standalone companies. Industry consolidation may benefit the airlines that remain by giving them the power to raise fares or fees, but it comes with costs to the consumer. As I noted with the Delta-Northwest merger, an American-US Airways merger may result in higher fares and fewer consumer choices, particularly in hubs and city-pairs where the two carriers overlap. And retrospective studies of the effects of the Delta-Northwest and United-Continental mergers suggest that, in fact, fares did rise on some routes where the two merger partners used to compete. Given the size of the ``Big Three'' legacy airlines that would remain after the merger, it is not entirely unreasonable to think that they would have even greater power to tacitly agree to raise prices, undermining price competition, and harming consumers in the process. Indeed, if American and US Airways were to merge, more than 70%-- and, by some estimates, as much as 86%--of the domestic airline industry would be controlled by just four airlines. I fear that the flying public will see relatively few benefits while bearing much of the costs of this potential merger. Another related issue to consider is whether the low-cost carriers, or LCC's, can continue to provide effective competitive pressure on what will be the ``Big Three'' legacy airlines should this merger occur. One of the arguments that I often heard in prior hearings on airline industry consolidation was that the industry would remain very competitive after consolidation because of the competition against large carriers from LCC's, which were able to offer lower fares because of their lower operating costs. Of the LCC's, however, only Southwest is large enough to compete nationwide against the large legacy carriers. And there is reason to wonder whether Southwest will continue to play the traditional role of an LCC in competing on ticket prices, given that it is now part of the big-airline club. Finally, we must consider what impact will this merger will have on workers at the two carriers. In stark contrast to previous airline mergers, the unions representing American Airlines and US Airways employees, with the exception of the International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers, have come out in public support of this merger, and the Machinists have said they could support it, but only after US Airways renews its contract with their members first. Indeed, American's unions have been instrumental in pushing for this merger. The view of these unions is that a merger will strengthen the future prospects for employees, both in terms of increased compensation and long-term job security. Nevertheless, it is difficult to ignore the possibility that at some point jobs may inevitably be lost as a result of the merger. After all, one of the rationales for merging is to cut inefficiencies and duplication, which usually translates into job losses. Nonetheless, I do accord great weight to the word of those who actually do the work that makes both of these companies run. So I thank the unions for making their views known to us as we review this merger. I hope that we can have a fruitful hearing so as to assess the benefits and the costs of this merger. __________ Mr. Bachus. Thank you. The Chairman of the full Committee, Mr. Goodlatte. Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you for holding this hearing, and on an issue that is of great importance to me and to my constituents. In a free market economy like ours, companies are generally free to organize themselves and their assets as they see fit, including by merger. There is nothing wrong per se with mergers, even if they form large companies. The preservation of free and fair competition, however, is critical to a free market. Competition spurs innovation and ensures that the market allocates resources efficiently. It benefits consumers and fosters economic growth. Because a free market cannot flourish without competition, a merger that decreases competition can undermine a free market. Thus, antitrust laws set important limits on companies, freedom to merge with one another. Specifically, Section 7 of the Clayton Act prohibits mergers that substantiate lessen competition or tend to create a monopoly. This is meant to strike a balance between companies' freedom to organize their affairs while preserving the competition that is essential to a healthy market. Recently, two of the four legacy carriers in the U.S. airline industry, American Airlines, which has been in Chapter 11 bankruptcy since late 2011, and U.S. Airways announced plans to merge. The resulting entity would be called American Airlines, but would be led by U.S. Air's chief executive officer. Pursuant to the Hart-Scott-Rodino Act, the Department of Justice must review this proposed merger to determine if it is anti-competitive. This is a highly technical inquiry, and the Department should be guided purely by the facts and the law, not by politics or ideology. The basic question the Department should seek to answer is, how this merger's impact on competition would affect consumer welfare. Congress has an oversight responsibility to ensure that the Department of Justice conducts its merger reviews in a thorough, fair, and reasonably prompt fashion. The Department should ask whether the merger would enable American to raise ticket prices or raise other ancillary fees or reduce services on particular routes, especially routes currently served by both airlines. It should ask whether there is sufficient competition on these routes, such as from low-cost carriers, to keep a post-merger American Airlines in competitive check. It also should ask whether post-merger a new carrier would move into a route served by American and begin to compete. To put it mildly, the airline industry has changed a great deal since it was deregulated in 1978. New airlines with new business models have sprung up to serve consumers. Other airlines have gone bankrupt. Some of the latter have returned from bankruptcy. Others have merged, and others have failed all together. In the last 5 years, the House Judiciary Committee has held hearings on two major airline mergers: Delta-Northwest in 2008 and United-Continental in 2010. Five major airlines--United, Delta, American, US Air, and Southwest--now control an estimated 80 percent of the domestic market. If this merger goes through, that number will decline to 4. Should this be the last merger in the airline industry so far and no farther? Would allowing this merger finally strike the right balance between competition and the cyclical bankruptcies that have occurred in the industry recently? A major concern any time there is fluctuation in the airline industry is how smaller airports, which depend heavily on routes to and from larger hubs, would be affected. For travelers leaving from my district, the airport in Charlotte, North Carolina is a major hub destination, and US Air has invested heavily in Charlotte. Would American maintain or even expand this and other hubs post-merger? It is by no means clear that this merger would have all or any of the negative effects that an airline merger can produce. American and US Air maintain that their routes are mostly complementary, not overlapping, and that the merger will enhance competition by giving the current 4th and 5th largest airlines a stronger position from which to compete with the other 3. Congress has no formal role in the Department of Justice's merger review process. Congressional hearings, however, provide important public venues to ask, debate, and identify possible answers to these questions which are of great importance. Rather than rushing to judgment, my hope is that everyone involved will take care to evaluate the evidence and do what is best for competition and consumers. I look forward to the testimony of the witnesses, debate among the Members of the Subcommittee, and, in the end, a wise decision by the Department of Justice that ensures a competitive future for the airline industry and protects the welfare of American travelers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bachus. Thank you. At this time, Mr. Cohen, the Subcommittee Ranking Member, is recognized. Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. This is the first hearing of the newly renamed Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law. We used to call it CAL. I call it RRCAL. I thank Chairman Bachus for choosing the topic of this merger between American and US Airways for our first hearing, and I want to say I look forward to what I hope and know will be a productive working relationship in the 113th Congress. The third Saturday in October is not the only time Alabama and Tennessee get together. As an initial matter, I note that unlike with previous mergers, the unions representing workers at both these airlines have expressed strong support for the merger, and that is encouraging. Some news accounts suggest that the unions at American were particularly instrumental in agreeing to this move. Mr. Chairman, I would ask unanimous consent that the final joint release, dated February 14, from the different unions be entered into the record. Mr. Bachus. Without objection. Mr. Cohen. I also ask unanimous consent that the letter from Laura Glading, president of the Association of Professional Flight Attendants, and the statement from Captain Coffman, Chairman of the Allied Pilots Association, expressing support for the merger, both be entered into the record. Mr. Bachus. Without objection. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I understand why labor supports this proposed merger. Employees of both carriers are poised to get a better deal than they would otherwise, which is more than I can say unfortunately for the employees of the former Northwest Airlines, many of whom were my constituents in Memphis. As we consider the merits of this merger, we ought to look back, though, what the similar effects of mergers that are similar in the recent past to see how it benefits consumers and what happens. And while I respect the views of labor in support of this merger and recognize that no two mergers of airlines or any other entities are necessarily alike, the merger of Northwest and Delta has indelibly been shaped by an image of airline mergers. Prior to the merger, Northwest operated a significant hub in Memphis, and for this reason and given Memphis' proximity to Delta's hub and headquarters in Atlanta, I expressed concern about the potential cost of the merger to consumers and employees in my home district. In this very room in 2008, Richard Anderson, Delta's CEO, said about the future of the Memphis hub, it will be additional. It will be more business for Memphis, not less. I expressed concern to him about reduced service or even outright elimination of the hub, and asked him about continuation of the Memphis-Amsterdam international flight, of which we had great pride. At that hearing, Mr. Anderson in this room testified there would be no hub closures, and he said the merger would maintain international flights to Amsterdam. He went further to say we could expect more international flights from Memphis and suggested Memphis to Paris was going to happen, and he said there would be more flights. This will enhance the status of traffic and service at the Memphis International Airport. He said it would add, not delay--not take away from Memphis International Airport. He said he knew Memphis from when he was at Northwest, and he loved the ribs, he loved the city, he knew how great the airport was, how well-managed it was, how the time on the tarmac and taking off was less, that they saved oil, and it was the best connections they could possibly have. Those facts were true. His response was not. I asked US Air and American to look at Mr. Anderson's statement and understand that Memphis International Airport is a place they should be. And when other airlines did not come to Memphis, US Airways did. They added additional flights from Memphis to Washington at better prices, and I appreciate that. We like that competition, and US Airways did something other airlines did not. When Frontier Airlines thought about coming into Memphis, Northwest cut their prices. That eliminated the opportunity for Frontier to come in. Later People Express expressed an interest in coming into Memphis. And because Delta had such a dominant market share, People Express did not. The opportunity in Memphis is there. Before the merger, there were 240 flights a day out of Memphis International Airport. As of this December, there 40 percent of that service, or simply 96 flights, not 240. It would not surprise me to see further cuts. And on Saturdays it looks like Dodge City. So ribs are plentiful. There is opportunity for US Airways to come into Memphis and to fly these routes, US Airways/American, and to serve Memphis. Delta has used its base in Memphis to keep carriers out and not have real competition. Memphis consumers pay higher prices than almost any airport in the country, and this has cost businesses to not choose Memphis as a place where they want to come because they do not get the service. Federal Express needs the service and supplies it. Federal Express takes some of their product and puts it all in the airlines, which can help your airlines serve Memphis. Call Fred Smith, Mr. Johnson. He will tell you, come to Memphis, and so do I. So there are plenty of reasons why when we look at this merger, and I understand wonderful things about--I have heard about Mr. Johnson and Mr. Kennedy, and we need to look at it differently. We have heard from Richard Anderson. We do not want a repeat performance. But the basis upon which he made his untrue statements are still valid. Memphis International Airport is a fine airport, great service, great weather, great opportunities to save on fuel, and a great city to serve. I appreciate your being here. I appreciate Mr. Bachus scheduling this hearing. I look forward to the testimony, and I look forward to US Airways and American serving Memphis, America's great city, and Memphis International Airport, the great airport that it is. Thank you, Mr. Bachus. And I will also give you a statement and ask unanimous consent to enter a statement from Mr. McGhee and Mr. Slover of the Consumer Union expressing concerns about this merger. Mr. Bachus. Without objection. [The information referred to follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] __________ Mr. Cohen. Thank you, sir, and I yield back the balance of my time. It does not exist, but that is traditional to yield it back. [Laughter.] Mr. Bachus. I guess let the record show that Mr. Cohen does not want you to merge with Delta Airlines. [Laughter.] Our first witness is--well, without objections, other Members' opening statements will be made a part of the record. [The prepared statement of Mr. Johnson follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] ---------- Mr. Bachus. And at this time, I will introduce the witnesses. Gary Kennedy, representing US Air--no, American. You are going to go first, yeah, that is right. As senior vice president, general counsel, and chief compliance officer to American Airlines, Mr. Kennedy directs all of American's legal affairs worldwide. Mr. Kennedy also directs American's corporate compliance program and oversees corporate governance matters. Before joining American Airlines in 1984, he practiced law in Salt Lake City. Mr. Kennedy is a magna cum laude graduate of the University of Utah, where he was a member of Phi Beta Kappa. He received his JD from the University of Utah School of Law. And we look forward to your testimony, Mr. Kennedy. And as I have told you privately before the hearing started, I have seen tremendous improvement in US Airway's operations, and the staff, and the service. And it has been a real transformation, and I compliment you and the management team at US Airways. And actually, you are American and I'm complimenting you. I should have been complimenting Mr. Johnson, right, so I apologize for that. And now I will get to Mr. Johnson and compliment you. Mr. Johnson, executive vice president of corporate and government affairs at US Airways, where he oversees corporate, legal, and regulatory affairs. Prior to joining US Airways in 2009, Mr. Johnson was a partner of Indigo Partners, LLC, a private equity firm specializing in acquisitions and strategic investments in the airline and aerospace industries. Mr. Johnson also served as executive vice president with American West Corporation prior to its merger with US Airways. He earned his MBA and JD from the University of California- Berkeley and his BA in economics from Cal State University in Sacramento. Thank you, Mr. Johnson, for testifying. And what I said to Mr. Kennedy about US Airways, obviously applies to you. And I did tell both of you all, and I was thinking the testimony was going to be flipped, but it really is a well-managed airline. And I do not travel American, so I really do not have that many occasions to travel on American. But when I did, they were very professional. Our third witness is Mr. Kevin Mitchell with the Business Travel Coalition. He is chairman and founder of the coalition where he advocates for the corporate travel community in North America, Europe, and Asia. He has over 40 years' experience in restaurant, hospitality, sports management, business aviation, and business travel industries. Before joining or founding BTC, Mr. Mitchell served as vice president of CIGNA Corporation. And he received his BA in international relations from St. Joseph's University in Philadelphia in 1980. We thank you for testifying. Our fourth witness, Professor Sagers, Christopher L. Sagers, professor of law at Cleveland-Marshall College of Law in Cleveland, Ohio, where he specializes in administrative law, antitrust law and economics, and business regulation. Before joining the academy, Professor Sagers was in private practice in Washington, D.C., at the law firm of Arnold & Porter and Shea & Gardner. He earned his JD cum laude from the University of Michigan School of Law and his masters of public policy from the University of Michigan. We thank you for testifying, Professor Sagers. Our last witness is Dr. Clifton--it is Clifford, is it not? Clifford Winston, Ph.D., at The Brookings Institution. He is senior fellow in economic studies there. His research focuses on analysis of industrial organization, regulation, and transportation. He was the co-editor of the annual micro- economic edition of Brookings' paper on economic activity, and has authorized numerous books and articles. Before coming to Brookings, Dr. Winston was an associate professor at MIT. Dr. Winston received his AB and Ph.D. from the University of California-Berkeley, and his masters from the London School of Economics. Thank you for testifying. And, Mr. Kennedy, you will go first with your public statement. Each of the witnesses' written statements will be entered into the record in its entirety. And I ask each witness to summarize his testimony in 5 minutes or less. To help you stay within that time, there is a timing light on your table, and when the light switches from green to yellow, you will have 1 minute to conclude your testimony. When the light turns red, it signals the witness' 5 minutes have expired. But I am actually more lenient than most people, so if you need to go on another minute, that is fine with me. I now recognize Mr. Kennedy for 5 minutes. TESTIMONY OF GARY F. KENNEDY, SENIOR VICE PRESIDENT, GENERAL COUNSEL AND CHIEF COMPLIANCE OFFICER, AMERICAN AIRLINES Mr. Kennedy. Chairman Bachus, Ranking Member Cohen, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today. My name is Gary Kennedy, and I am the senior vice president, general counsel, and chief compliance officer for American Airlines. I have been intimately involved in both the Chapter 11 restructuring of our company and the proposed merger between American and US Airways. As the Committee knows well, the airline industry has experience severe economic turbulence over the past decade. The shockwaves from the events of 9/11 created enormous difficulty in the aviation industry, and all U.S. carriers grappled with ways to survive in the wake of the emotional and economic upheaval created by those terrible events. In 2003, US Airways was on the brink of filing for bankruptcy protection, but thanks to the willingness of our organized labor representatives to take the steps necessary at that time to reduce costs, we avoided a chapter 11 filing. For the next 8 years, we struggled to find a way to financial stability. Despite our best efforts, our losses continued to mount, reaching $12 billion over the previous 10 years. In November 2011, our board came to the painful conclusion that time had run out. The only viable path forward was to restructure our business under Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code. There is no easy to describe how difficult our bankruptcy reorganization has been for the company and our employees. Beginning at the top of the organization, we reduced our senior management ranks by 35 percent. We then moved through the balance of the organization making necessary changes, including the reduction of 15 percent of total management staff. Meanwhile, we began renegotiating certain of our secured obligations, our leases, and our contracts with vendors. We also negotiated new long-term contracts with each of our organized labor groups. These new contracts include productivity improvements and changes to health and retirement benefits. At the same time, we increased pay for our employees and mitigated job losses by offering retirement incentives. One of the most important objectives we achieved was to freeze rather than terminate our employee pension plans. As a result, we now expect to fulfill those obligations rather than unload them on the PBGC as other airlines have done. Of course all that we accomplished was done in the context of our Chapter 11 case and in consultation with the official Unsecured Creditors Committee appointed by the United States Trustee. By mid-summer last year, we made sufficient progress that we decided, in conjunction with the Creditors Commission, to embark on a formal process to consider a merger with US Airways. It was clear from the outset of our review that a merger with US Airways could create significant value for our stakeholders and bring substantial benefits to the traveling public. We have conservatively estimated that by 2015, revenue and cost synergies will outweigh cost dyssynergies by over $1 billion. This combination will make our company a much stronger competitor against the other large airlines. We are under no illusions that mergers are easy or seamless. We have agreed from the outside to do everything in our power to learn both from the success and the mistakes of those who have gone before us. Many of the most important decisions have already been made. The combined company will use the great American Airlines brand, the company will remain headquartered in Dallas-Fort Worth area, and all hubs in both systems will continue to be hubs in the new American. Our CEO, Tom Horton, and US Airways CEO, Doug Parker, will jointly lead both the transition team and the New American as it emerges from bankruptcy. Mr. Parker will be CEO of the new company, and Mr. Horton will be chairman of the board. Now, I understand and recognize that many Members of Congress are skeptical of promises made in these situations, and also concerned about industry concentration. As to the former, we do not intend to make commitments that we cannot keep. And as to the latter, it is clear that this merger does not create a high degree of concentration. Above all, however, I would urge you to consider the facts with which I began my testimony. Nothing has been more damaging for the airline industry, our employees, our customers, and our shareholders than the years of economic turmoil we have experienced. This transaction is unique in that it is endorsed by all of our labor unions and embraced by management and the boards of both companies. We know we have a solemn obligation to implement this transaction with great care and thought, and we are eager to do so. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. [The prepared statement of Mr. Kennedy follows:] Prepared Statement of Gary F. Kennedy, Senior Vice President, General Counsel and Chief Compliance Officer, American Airlines, Inc. Chairman Bachus, Ranking Member Cohen and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today about the issues of airline competition, bankruptcy, and the proposed merger of American Airlines and US Airways. We appreciate the manner in which this hearing is structured as all of these issues are inter-related. As General Counsel of American Airlines, I have been intimately involved in both the Chapter 11 restructuring of the company and the proposed merger between American and US Airways. I would like to give you a sense of how we arrived at this point from American's point of view and why this transaction is so critical to the customers, employees and communities of both companies. I believe Mr. Johnson from US Airways will address what both companies hope to achieve going forward. As this Committee knows well, the airline industry has experienced severe economic turbulence over the past decade. The shock waves from the events of 9/11 created enormous difficulty in the aviation industry and all US carriers grappled with ways to survive in the wake of the emotional and economic upheaval created by those terrible events. This was followed by the unprecedented run-up of jet fuel prices in the summer of 2008 and the financial collapse of the economy that further strained our industry as corporations cut travel budgets, and discretionary spending on non-essential items plummeted. The consequences were significant. During this period, there were a series of airline bankruptcies, severe cuts in capital expenditures, the furlough of thousands of employees, the loss of air service to many communities, and three major commercial air carrier mergers. For most of the past decade, American Airlines took a different path than many of our competitors. In 2003, we were on the brink of filing for bankruptcy protection, but thanks to the willingness of our organized labor representatives to take the steps necessary at that time to reduce costs, we avoided a Chapter 11 filing. For the next eight years, as our major competitors reduced costs through their own Chapter 11 cases and created larger and more attractive networks through consolidation, we struggled to find a path to financial stability, while maintaining a generous package of benefits for our workers and quality service for our customers. As we worked hard to avoid a bankruptcy filing, our largest competitors were embarked on a different course and new entrants were poised to take advantage of the turmoil being experienced by the legacy carriers. In 2001, American was the largest airline in the world. With the mergers of Delta and Northwest, United and Continental, and Southwest and AirTran, American became the fourth largest carrier domestically and dropped to the third largest carrier globally. At the same time, low cost carriers, old and new, continued to grow and enter more markets. Today, the vast majority of our passengers are flying on routes with competition from one or more low cost carriers, and that number is expected to increase. That will certainly be the case in the Dallas/Fort Worth region and elsewhere when the Wright Amendment perimeter rule is lifted next year. In addition to the changes occurring on the domestic front, the configuration of international global airline alliances was also changing. Although the joint business venture among British Airways, Iberia, and American was finally approved after 13 years, we had fallen far behind our US competitors, all of which enjoyed the benefit of a much earlier approval of their joint ventures. In short, on a competitive and financial basis we continued to lag far behind the rest of the industry. American did not stand idly by during these years. We undertook a variety of steps to position ourselves for long-term success. We strengthened our network by focusing on markets with the greatest concentration of business travelers, and we fortified our alliances with the best international partners. We signed a historic and transformational aircraft purchase agreement for 550 new aircraft, one that promised to give us one of the most modern and fuel efficient fleets in the industry. And, we began investing again in our products, services and technology to create a world-class travel experience. Despite our efforts and the substantial progress we made to succeed in the long term, our losses continued to mount, reaching $12 billion over the previous 10 years. And, there was no end in sight. In November 2011, our Board came to the painful conclusion that time had run out. The only viable path forward was to restructure our business under Chapter 11 of the Bankruptcy Code. Of course, in the months and years leading up to our Chapter 11 filing, we gave strong consideration to possible merger partners. Given our weak financial condition at the onset of our restructuring and the fact that we had yet to establish a track record of financial improvement and value creation, we determined that we must first get our own house in order before we could properly evaluate a potential merger with another airline. Indeed, until we had a line of sight to a far more stable financial structure, both in terms of revenues and costs, we believed we would not be negotiating from a position of strength and, as such, would be more challenged in fulfilling our duty to maximize value for our owners. On the day we filed for relief under Chapter 11, we had a change in leadership. Our new CEO, Tom Horton, asked everyone at the company to work hard to achieve a successful restructuring, while continuing to run a top notch airline with great service to our customers. He reminded us that with a strong balance sheet, a competitive cost structure and restructured contracts that allowed us to compete on a level playing field, we could then appropriately consider a range of strategic options. There is no easy way to describe how difficult our bankruptcy reorganization has been for the company and our employees. Beginning at the top of the organization, we reduced our senior management ranks by 35 percent. We then moved through the balance of the organization making necessary changes, including the reduction of 15% of total management staff. Meanwhile, we began renegotiating certain of our secured obligations, our leases, and our contracts with vendors. We eliminated significant expenses and tightened our belts in every department of the company. Most importantly, we entered into intense negotiations with our labor unions in an effort to improve productivity and reduce overall costs. While this was a long and difficult process, we achieved new long term contracts with each of our organized labor groups. These new contracts include productivity improvements and changes to health and retirement benefits that put American on a level playing field with the legacy carriers. At the same time, we increased pay for our employees and mitigated job losses by offering retirement incentives. One of the most important objectives we achieved was to freeze, rather than terminate, our employee pension plans. As a result, we now expect to fulfill those obligations, rather than unload them on the PBGC, as other airlines have done. Of course, all of what we have accomplished was done in the context of our Chapter 11 case and in consultation with the Official Committee of Unsecured Creditors appointed by the US Trustee. As we worked our way through our Chapter 11 case, we were approached by US Airways early last year with a merger proposal. At that time, we declined to engage in discussions with them. Instead, we continued to work on our reorganization. As we did, a number of positive developments quickly emerged. First, we began to see encouraging financial and operational results. Operating costs were down and, just as importantly, revenues began to rise--topping the US industry in year-over-year unit revenue improvement for six straight months--and our operational performance began to improve to the best levels in many years. By mid-summer we had enough certainty around our standalone plan and our improving financial position that we decided, in conjunction with the Creditors Committee, to embark on a formal process to consider strategic alternatives. As part of this process, we entered into a non-disclosure agreement with US Airways that allowed both companies to share information and engage in a detailed analysis of the potential benefits of a combination. The Creditors Committee, through its financial and legal advisors, actively participated in this undertaking. Later in the process, an Ad Hoc Committee, consisting of substantial holders of our unsecured debt, also reviewed the proposed combination in significant detail. It is fair to say that multiple parties scrutinized and evaluated this proposed transaction. Ultimately, we agreed to a structure with American stakeholders owning 72% of the combined companies. It was clear from the outset of our review that a merger with US Airways could create significant value for our stakeholders and bring substantial benefits to the traveling public. We have conservatively estimated that by 2015 revenue and cost synergies will outweigh cost dis-synergies by over $1 billion. The majority of these revenue synergies are derived by combining two complementary networks that will offer consumers more service at more times to more places. And because this will be a merger of complementary networks, these benefits come with virtually no loss of competition. Of the more than 900 domestic routes flown by the two carriers, there are only 12 overlaps. This is one reason we are convinced that this merger is consistent with good public policy. The combination will make our company a much stronger competitor against the other large airlines. Consumers will have three strong, healthy global network carriers from which to choose, as well as a number of low cost carriers, including Southwest, JetBlue and Virgin America. The new American will have the financial strength to invest the resources needed to improve the customer experience, including new aircraft, cutting edge products and services, and the technology and tools designed to help our employees deliver superior service to our customers. The combined airline will offer new routings for our passengers in thousands of additional markets. For American, the greatest benefit derives from two principal components. First, US Airways offers a substantial network in the Eastern section of the country. This will complement our strong operations in the Southeast, Midwest, and West Coast. Second, US Airways offers an impressive network in small and medium size communities. We view these as great assets that will provide us the opportunity to reach many communities that our customers are not able to access today. Like US Airways, we value service to small and medium size communities and have consistently looked for additional markets that can enhance our entire network. We are under no illusions that mergers are easy or seamless. We have agreed from the outset to do everything in our power to learn from both the successes and mistakes of those who have gone before us. Many of the most important decisions have already been made. The combined company will build on the great American Airlines brand and our AAdvantage loyalty program. The company will remain headquartered in the Dallas/Fort Worth area, and all hubs in both systems will continue to be hubs in the new American. Our CEO, Tom Horton, and US Airways' CEO, Doug Parker, will jointly lead both the transition team and the new American as it emerges from bankruptcy. Mr. Parker will be CEO of the new company and Mr. Horton will be Chairman of the Board. I can personally attest that despite the difficult path that got us here today, the spirit of cooperation and determination in both companies is extraordinary. For reasons that Steve Johnson will outline in greater detail, we believe this transaction will be good not only for our two airlines and employees, but also good for competition and the travelling public. I know that many Members of Congress are skeptical of promises made in these situations and also concerned about industry concentration. As to the former, we do not intend to make commitments that we cannot keep. And as to the latter, it is clear that this merger does not create a high degree of concentration. Above all, however, I would urge you to consider the facts with which I began my testimony. Nothing has been more damaging for the airline industry, our employees, our customers, and our shareholders than the years of economic turmoil we have experienced. This transaction will give us the opportunity to become a stronger competitor, one with a degree of financial stability that we have not experienced in many years. We will be a company that is better positioned to deliver for customers and its people. This transaction is unique in that it is endorsed by all of our labor unions and embraced by the management and boards of both companies. We know we have a solemn obligation to implement the transaction with great care and thought. We are eager to do so. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify today. __________ Mr. Bachus. Mr. Johnson. TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN L. JOHNSON, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT, CORPORATE AND GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS, US AIRWAYS, INC. Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Chairman Bachus, and Ranking Member Cohen, Chairman Goodlatte, and Ranking Member Conyers. And thanks to the entire Committee for having us here today. It is an honor to testify before the Subcommittee about the merger of American Airlines and US Airways. The creation of the New American Airlines will be good for competition, good for consumers, and good for choice. Expanding our network for the benefit of our customers, our employees, our shareholders, and our communities is the motivation for bringing these companies together. Integration of the complementary networks of American Airlines and US Airways will enhance competition in an already highly competitive marketplace. It will also deliver significant benefits to each of those constituencies. Our customers and communities will benefit from more and better service. Our employees will receive improved pay, better benefits, and greatly enhanced job security. And, Mr. Chairman, I would like to acknowledge the fact that there is about 30 of Gary's and my colleagues here in the room with us today who came to join us for the hearing, and thank them personally for joining us. Our shareholders will benefit from improved financial stability and from $1 billion of synergies created by the merger. And we are proud that the combination has unprecedented support from our 100,000 employees, the financial markets, and the communities we serve. The US Airways team has been a leader in delivering exceptional customer service, but we have long recognized that we could do more. Airline passengers have made it clear that what they want are broader networks capable of taking them wherever they want to travel whenever they want to go. By combining the systems of American and US Airways, the New American Airlines will build the network our passengers want, one that will compete vigorously with the networks of Delta and Northwest, and with low-cost carriers like Jet Blue and Southwest. The passenger benefits of the New American Airlines stem from the complementary nature of our operation. By combining these operations, we add origins, destinations, and hubs to a network with very little duplication. Indeed, out of the nearly 900 domestic routes we will serve, American Airlines and US Airways have only 12 nonstop overlaps. Also US Airways has historically provided extensive air service to small- and medium-sized communities, and this merger will allow us to extend that focus to the American Airlines system. Combining these networks also will create new, exciting international opportunities. We will provide thousands of passengers better alternatives with over 1,300 new routes worldwide. In addition, our customers will have the potential to access 130--sorry, have the potential to access over 130 cities around the globe served by American, but not yet served by US Airways, and 62 cities served by US Airways but not yet served by American. And by adding US Airways to the oneworld global alliance, we will increase competition on international routes by creating attractive opportunities for additional international service to oneworld customers and to US Airways hubs. Domestic markets will become even more competitive. Although it will be the largest airline in the U.S., the New American Airlines will have less than 25 percent of domestic available seat miles, and will compete against the nationwide networks of Delta with 21 percent and United and Southwest, each with 19 percent. The New American Airlines will also compete against Southwest's significantly lower cost structure and a host of smaller, but fast-growing, lower-cost airlines, including Jet Blue, Spirit, Allegiant, and Virginia America. Also important, as we increasingly think about competing in a global airline business, the combination of American and US Airways will create a third U.S. airline that can compete successfully with major international airlines in key markets around the world. The New American Airlines will be a financially stronger company. The US Airways business has been consistently profitable, and the successful restructuring of American will return that business to profitability. And as a result of the combination, we expect to generate over $1 billion in net synergies as we increase revenues from new passengers taking advantage of our broader network and improved service, and reduce costs from scale and the elimination of duplicative systems in management. That improved financial performance will provide American's bankruptcy creditors with an enhanced opportunity for a full recovery, a result unheard of in airline bankruptcies. And it will create more financial stability in the extremely cyclical airline industry. That financial stability also will provide very significant benefits to our employees, including better pay and benefits, greatly improved job security, and better opportunity for advancement. Thus, it is not surprising that the merger has generated unprecedented support from employees of both companies, their labor unions, and from the communities in which they live. Antitrust review of these issues is important, and we are already working with the Justice Department to demonstrate the competitive benefits of this merger. We appreciate the opportunity to address these issues with the Subcommittee today and commit to working with you in your oversight capacity. We announced the merger only 12 days ago, so there are many issues yet to be resolved, but I will do my best to answer any questions you may have today. Thank you very much. [The prepared statement of Mr. Johnson follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] __________ Mr. Bachus. Thank you. Mr. Mitchell. TESTIMONY OF KEVIN MITCHELL, CHAIRMAN, BUSINESS TRAVEL COALITION (BTC) Mr. Mitchell. Thank you. Mr. Chairman and Members of the Committee, this morning I am going to explain one threat to price transparency that would be enabled by this merger that has been agreed to by airlines, but has not yet caught the eye of the public. I am also presenting this testimony this morning on behalf of the American Antitrust Institute. In 2008, I warned this and other Committees in testimony of the dangers of the then proposed Delta/Northwest merger and what those dangers would hold for consumers. And I remember well that Northwest CEO, Doug Steenland, testified that Committee Members should not be concerned because the market disciplining effect of third party distributors, such as Expedia, is so pervasive and so important that they create this transparency, he said, that will keep prices low. He used this transparency, in fact, to justify the merger, and he was right back then about the effects of transparency. Today, however, airlines, including American and US Airways, have agreed on a brazen new worldwide business model for how to price and sell tickets. It is designed to destroy price transparency, which is the very antidote to consolidation needed to ensure a healthy marketplace. The model is called new distribution capability, or NDC, and the airlines trade group, IATA, is spearheading implementation. NDC is designed to terminate, by agreement among competitors, the current transparent model for the pricing of tickets where fares are published and publicly available for comparison shopping and purchase by all consumers on a non- discriminatory basis. What problem are the airlines endeavoring to solve? IATA has decried publicly the commoditization of airline services caused by low fare search capabilities of the very online travel agencies that Mr. Steenland lauded. For example, Tony Tyler, Director General of IATA, stated in a press interview remarkably, and I quote, ``We've done a great job of improving efficiency and bringing down costs, but we've handed that benefit straight to our customers. As soon as someone has got a cost advantage, instead of charging the same price and making a bit of profit, they use it to undercut their competitors and hand the value straight to passengers or cargo shippers, and you've got to ask why,'' says Tyler. ``I think one of the reasons is the way we sell our product. It forces us to commoditize ourselves,'' end quote. How does an NDC work? A binding resolution codifies that airlines have agreed that they have the right to demand from consumers, before they would be privileged to receive a fair quote, personal information, including name, age, nationality, contact details, frequent flyer numbers of all carriers, whether the purpose of the trip is business or leisure, prior shopping purchase and travel history, and of all things, marital status Why is this program so toxic? Air fares would no longer be publicly filed and available on a non-discriminatory basis for consumers to anonymously comparison shop and purchase through travel agencies. Instead, each price would be unique depending on the profile of the consumer. This personal information can be used to extract higher prices from less price sensitive travelers, such as business travelers. In contrast, today when a consumer wants to travel from A to B, she can go to a travel agency that has the fares and schedules. All options in the marketplace are returned so she could easily compare prices without having to divulge personal information. It is this very price visibility that has checked the power of airlines to raise fares lest they lose out to competitors offering a better deal. Price transparency is even more important today because when Steenland testified there were six network carriers, then there were five, then there were four. Now we are heading to 33. By eliminating transparencies, airlines will have created by concerted actions a new system of completely opaque pricing, and with it the ability to raise all fares across all systems. The nexus between NDC and this merger, this merger eliminates US Airways, a maverick on airline distribution issues. It will be far easier to coordinate expressly or tacitly among three network competitors, and far easier to impose this model, especially given the clout that the New American Airlines would have as the biggest carrier on the planet. The lack of transparency created by NDC further cements the dominance of these mega carriers. And once NDC is established here in the world's largest market, it is going to be lights out, game over for consumers. Two remedies. DoT has the authority to approve NDC. Given its anti-competitive effects and unprecedented invasion of privacy, DoT should reject it without condition. Number two, DoJ. They should serve IATA and its members who have been spearheading the NDC scheme with a CID to discover the purpose and objectives of NDC and the process by which horizontal competitors reached a binding agreement on how they would price and sell tickets. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I would just like to add that the American Antitrust Institute is looking at the competitive effects of NDC itself. [The prepared statement of Mr. Mitchell follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] __________ Mr. Bachus. Thank you. Professor Sagers. TESTIMONY OF CHRISTOPHER L. SAGERS, JAMES A. THOMAS DISTINGUISHED PROFESSOR OF LAW, CLEVELAND STATE UNIVERSITY Mr. Sagers. Thank you very much. So my friend, Diana Moss, of the American Antitrust Institute told me that I should be getting hazard pay for being here today. And I am here, I am afraid, to suggest some reasons not to be so optimistic about this merger. I will notice that there are kind of a lot of captains uniforms behind me, and I have to say I am a little afraid that when I leave here to go home to Cleveland today, I am going to be on some sort of no fly list. And I hope that is not true. Mr. Bachus. They are all very friendly, I can tell. Mr. Sagers. I am sure they are. I am not going to say what airline I am on. And I will note as well that Dr. Winston, who I think is--he is only coincidentally to my left, and he is also going to probably say a few things in disagreement with me. He is an eminent person. No person could study the antitrust treatment and competition in airline markets without studying his work. And yet he and I are going to disagree about a few things. But the most encouraging thing I have heard today so far is Chairman Goodlatte's statement, which I was very pleased to hear describe antitrust law as non-ideological. And I could not agree more. It is non-ideological. I do not have, you know, my own phalanx of supporters behind me, and indeed I do not have any staff to come help support me in these sorts of things because I am only here to speak in favor of a policy that is supposed to protect everybody, including us average folks. And so guys like me come and talk about it alone. So here is my basic thought in the very brief time I have to describe this complex deal. I think that in policy consideration of transactions like these, complexity is the defendant's friend. Complexity is the merging party's friend. It is not the friend, though, of most other people that are affected by the transaction. I want, therefore, to try to describe a few things that, to me, seem relatively simple. First of all, there will be a lot of discussion, and it is going to seem complex because it seems to require a lot of understanding of complicated industry facts, of benefits proposed by the merger. Right? There is a lot of complexity surrounding the purported benefits. I am not even really going to talk about the benefits. I personally do not think they are worth dwelling on, at least not in this setting, because we all, every single one of us, have been to this rodeo before. We have seen many many mergers in many industries, and we have seen many mergers in the airlines in the 35 years since deregulation. And they have always been said to propose these same benefits or benefits like them, and quite often they have been disappointing. My sense is that the promises are typically not kept, and they have led to sometimes very painful disappointments. I am going to talk instead about what I also think is relatively simple, and that is the competitive effects. There is not time for me really to address it fully, but I will say this. In the written statements that I read last night, and I read them all, the most remarkable statement was that in this merger, among the thousands and thousands of daily flights to cities all across the United States that are controlled by these 2 carriers, the only overlaps that matter in the whole combined network will be 12 overlaps, 12 flights. We could delve into some complexities. I would rather focus on what seems to me simple. We should ask ourselves, among those thousands and thousands of flights, are there really only 12 cities in which these 2 carriers provide competition with each other that would be lost through this merger? I do not think so. For a brief introductory analysis to what are the more likely effects, you can look at the white paper produced by the American Antitrust Institute, which is attached to Mr. Mitchell's written statement. The final thing I will say, and unfortunately I have a very brief remaining time to say it, is that a dominating theme of all discussion of airline mergers since deregulation has been the economic difficulties of the carriers. The claim is we have to merge. We have to consolidate to strengthen ourselves so that we can perform. Here are a few thoughts about that. First of all, the carriers really have never offered any very plausible explanation why merger. It has to be merger that is going to solve our economic problems. They can and they often have suggested a lot of detailed arguments. But again, I think the response is a relatively simple one, and it is that, well, we have had a long time. We have had 35 years with dozens of mergers, every single one of which has been sold on the claim that synergies, cost savings, et cetera, are going to make us competitive. It has not worked. The airlines have remained--the legacy airlines, at least, have remained mostly economically in dire straits throughout that whole time. With that I will end. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Sagers follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Bachus. Mr. Winston or Dr. Winston. TESTIMONY OF CLIFFORD WINSTON, SENIOR FELLOW, ECONOMIC STUDIES PROGRAM, THE BROOKINGS INSTITUTION Mr. Winston. Thank you. I am happy to be able to testify at this merger. I testified at the Delta/Northwest merger in 2008 in support of that merger, and I support this merger. But I have some new perspectives to bring. I am not just going to read my old testimony. And what I think I will do in the short amount of time, given what we have heard, is repackage my written presentation in my oral presentation, beginning with my conclusion. All mergers, not just airlines, involve what we are to call the Williamson tradeoffs; that is, mergers trade off benefits from economies and expansion to get lower costs, okay. That is the positive claim to them. And then the anti-competitive concern that you are losing a competitor and that you will raise prices. So traditionally, when we think of these things we start off with tradeoffs, and naturally, you know, you will hear them and you have heard them, as expected. What I think is interesting now about airlines, and I did not stress this enough before, but I think it is increasingly true now, is we do not have to think of these any more as tradeoffs. Now admittedly, I will be bringing in an additional policy perspective, but I think that was appropriately done by Mr. Mitchell raising just concerns about what is going on with how tickets are distributed. And that additional policy perspective is the growing reality of where this industry is going, and that is the globalization. This is a global airline industry, right? We have to see where are we really going to be going. And when I mean globalization, I mean full open skies, something we have been moving toward, and ultimately cabotage, which is allowing foreign carriers to serve in the U.S. And, you know, if you think that is a strange policy, consider the automobile industry and imagine what it would be like if we did not have Honda, Toyota, et cetera, building and assembling cars here. And one wonders what is wrong with a picture like that when that is the case in autos, but we do not allow British and Irish planes to fly in the U.S. All right. Once you bring that perspective into mind, things change radically. You do not have tradeoffs. In other words, it is quite clear that with the airline's job to be as efficient as possible, okay, and reduce costs, and what policy makers' job to do is to promote globalization and policy, promoting open skies, finish the job with that, and cabotage. What that will do is give you your influx of competitors to make sure that the efficiency improvements are largely transferred to consumers. And so the concerns about competition just go out the window once you start thinking about that. All right. But something else very important becomes clear then. You get a deeper and, I think, more intuitive understanding of why carriers are merging. Think about what airlines really involve. It is a very risky investment, okay? And billions of dollars of seats that are in the sky, all right? And it is risky because there are lots of shocks that I will get to shortly, all right. What you want to do deal with risk, as we know, is to have a portfolio, and you could allocate those seats in response to shocks and risks. And in a globalized economy, then you can imagine what people will do. When things are tough in one place, they will move their capacity to another place, all right. Mergers enable you to do that. So I would suggest that the main justification for mergers which really has not been emphasized enough is really a way of dealing with risk, which is the inherent challenge in this industry. All right. So let me turn to that, why I think that. This all comes out of deregulation, you know. You can recall, but you have read, that airlines operated with a load factor of 55 percent, so they have billions of dollars in capacity, and they are using only half of it. So, you know, in retrospect you can just see how crazy regulation was. What a waste, all right? But at the same time, airlines were shielded from the fundamental challenge; that is, matching capacity with demand and these shocks. So you have to commit to capacity to buy planes in advance, and you think you know what demand is. And then you have got to deal with fuel shocks, macroeconomic shocks, the Gulf War, September 11th, and, to top it off, sequestration, all right? That is really a very challenging thing to do. So what do you want to do? You want to have the ability to diversify, right, and be able to allocate your seats appropriately. That is what mergers do, and that is why the airlines have been doing it for all these decades, I would contend. Now, in the process of doing that, what do we see going on in the industry? What are the long-run trends? Well, real prices continue to go down. They continue to be below the SIFL, the standard industry fair level, under regulations, so the benefits of deregulation are preserved. And most importantly, load factors are going up. That is the key efficiency thing that we want to look at. We are not operating at 55 percent. We are much closer to 80 or 90. So I would suggest that, you know, these mergers are just part of a tool. They are not the only tool, but to deal in the long run with where this industry is going, and that is globalization. Now, I believe in the end, you know, Congress is critical here in pushing for that, all right? And then we get a win-win, and then presumably then the airlines should go along with it. We are allowing you to be more efficient. You allow us to spur competition in this industry. [The prepared statement of Mr. Winston follows:] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Bachus. Thank you. We will now proceed under the 5- minute rule with questions, and I will begin by recognizing myself for 5 minutes. One thing, Mr. Mitchell, that you and Professor Sagers did not address, you talked about some possible negative implications of this merger. But if it does not go through, and there are some demonstrable negatives, very many, and I just wonder if you considered that. For instance, a failure of American Airlines being financially unsustainable. Mr. Mitchell. Well, American Airlines is exiting or will exit bankruptcy reorganization as a lower-cost carrier with billions of dollars in cash and cash equivalents, and new aircraft are on order. And their CEO has said countless times that they will be profitable as a stand-alone carrier. Likewise US Airways is enjoying some of its most successful earnings in its history. So I just do not buy into the notion that these are failing firms. It certainly does not apply as a failing firm against the guidelines, the antitrust guidelines. They are fit and able to compete. And to make the argument, as you hear now, then that they need to be large enough to compete effectively with the new Delta or the Continental-United, well, they claim themselves they can compete against them. If you use the logic that you always have to get bigger to compete with the next biggest carrier, we are going to end up with two mega carriers. I mean, the logic is flawed. And then finally, there are many smaller independent carriers that just do quite fine mixing it up. Mr. Bachus. Okay. Mr. Sagers. I would like to very briefly add one thing because I think this seems like the biggest issue, right, if we are going to have a huge business failure, we have to do something. My first point is I agree with Mr. Mitchell that it is unlikely. We do not see airline liquidations that often, despite the huge financial difficulty the industry has had in 35 years. Much more importantly, we all have had a very painful, unhappy experience during the past few years with this same basic problem, which is that we in the United States do not have the stomach for business failure. By not being willing to tolerate it once in a while, we create a very serious problem, which is that firms that know that they will be rescued fail to learn how to compete in difficult markets, okay? And in this case the subsidy---- Mr. Bachus. Let me say this. We have a bankruptcy law which allows you to go into bankruptcy, and then it allows the creditors, the company, the pension, the CBGC---- Mr. Sagers. Right, right. Mr. Bachus [continuing]. To agree on the best route out of bankruptcy. And that agreement has been made. Mr. Sagers. We do have a bankruptcy law, but---- Mr. Bachus. But what I am saying, what these companies are doing is exactly what the law avails of any company. And they have made a decision through the bankruptcy process that this is their best reorganization. Now, you know, you could argue with that, but they have availed themselves of the legal process. Mr. Sagers. I disagree. Mr. Bachus. Well, I know you do. But one thing that, and I have read your statements and what you have said in the press. But airline fares, I mean, you have talked about they have escalated, but they have actually, as far as taking into account inflation, they are one of the best, they are more competitive than they have ever been. I mean, the only reason they have been as cheap as they have is investors have pumped billions of dollars into failing airlines. And I would say this. You both mentioned that they maybe had a few more complementary routes, or not complementary, but duplications. But actually I cannot recall a merger of airlines that had fewer duplications than this. Mr. Sagers. I will reply if you allow me. Mr. Bachus. What? Mr. Sagers. I will reply if you will allow me. Mr. Bachus. All right. Mr. Sagers. Okay. First of all, they are not just doing what bankruptcy law allows. They are emerging from bankruptcy with a merger which is substantially uncompetitive. The subsidy that we gave to the banks during the bailout---- Mr. Bachus. No, that is their bankruptcy plan, I think. That is legal. Mr. Sagers. Yes, sir. Mr. Bachus. I mean, that is bankruptcy. Mr. Sagers. That may very well be. Most people who emerge from Chapter 7 do not do it through a horizontal---- Mr. Bachus. Well, most of them do not do it. But what they do, that is an option. Mr. Sagers. Yeah, unless it is illegal under antitrust laws. Mr. Bachus. And that is an option that the law gives them. And I would just say this. I am a railroad attorney. I remember Rock Island and where the government continued and turned them down saying it was anti-competitive and you lost 10,000 miles of rail and stranded over 4,000 shippers because you did not allow a viable merger. And I can tell you that everything I have read, this is going to make a stronger airline. And I will say this. You could have stopped those mergers before Delta and Northwest, I will agree with that. You could have stopped it before Continental and United. But you did not, and you created other airlines with a distinct advantage if you do not let these two airlines merge. And the employees are for this, you know. I have never seen more favorable support from employees, from unions and in a time of deficits from the Pension Guaranty Corporation, which is not unimportant. Mr. Mitchell. Mr. Chairman, could I add one point? Mr. Bachus. Sure. Mr. Mitchell. From ABC News, you know, we talked about the 12 overlapping routes. But there are 100 cities that these two carriers currently compete on routes. That works out to 4,900 routes. Mr. Bachus. Well, let me say this. If you call competing, which I saw a list that if you fly from Birmingham to D.C. and you want to fly through Dallas and take 12 hours as opposed to 2 hours from Birmingham to D.C., you can call that, if they share that route. But I do not know of anyone that would take a 12-hour flight or an 8-hour flight when they could go non-stop. Mr. Mitchell. But the real point---- Mr. Bachus. And that was on somebody's list. Mr. Mitchell. The real point is that the 12 overlapping routes, overlapping routes in general are not as important as they were 4 or 5 years ago. Mr. Bachus. All right, thank you. Mr. Cohen. Mr. Cohen. Have all of you all flown through Atlanta? You all have? Voice. Atlanta? Mr. Cohen. Have any of you all flown through Memphis? Mr. Mitchell, is it more convenient and nicer to be in the Memphis Airport or the Atlanta Airport? [Laughter.] Mr. Mitchell. Every time I am there, I feel like I am living the dream. [Laughter.] Mr. Cohen. You got it, man. You have been there. Any of the rest of you been and think Atlanta is a better experience for your consumers than Memphis? Mr. Johnson? Mr. Johnson. Sir, I am just not familiar with the Memphis Airport. But after your discussion about it---- Mr. Cohen. You and Mr. Anderson. Mr. Johnson. I am going to see the Memphis Airport as soon as I can. Mr. Cohen. Good. And you will like it. Is not the fact---- Mr. Bachus. He likes the ribs, right? Mr. Johnson. He likes the Rendezvous, right? Mr. Cohen. The Rendezvous and others. But, you know, Memphis Airport is small. It is easy to get around. It smells good. You smell ribs everywhere. [Laughter.] Atlanta is just gigantic, and the only smell you get is maybe, you know, congestion. Will US Airways-American--it will be called ``American,'' Mr. Johnson--is there a likelihood that you would look into Memphis? And with all the things about competition, now are you going to leave Memphis to just to be the stepchild of Delta, or would you look into coming in there and providing competition, as US Airways has on the Memphis- Washington route? Mr. Johnson. We think both--am I on? Both airlines serve Memphis now. We serve Memphis to a variety of our hubs. As you know from our testimony, our written testimony, the creation of the network that will come about by the New American Airlines will create opportunities to provide additional service to cities that we serve to our hubs, and we are hopeful that Memphis will be among that. But at this point in time, we have not had the opportunity to plan or talk about that, but certainly Memphis will be on our list, sir. Mr. Cohen. Mr. Mitchell, one of the things Mr. Anderson said or others said was that since the Memphis Airport is so much better, the time that airlines have to stay on the tarmac or just approach, that they save money on fuel. Is that accurate that that would be an attraction to an airline to come to Memphis because of fuel costs just sitting on the runway? Mr. Mitchell. I think there is abundant evidence of that. All you have to do is look at the statements over time of Southwest Airlines. They will, you know, stay away from any airport where expenses and charges are just a little bit too high for them. So, it makes an impact on the decision making at the airlines for sure. Mr. Cohen. Dr. Winston, you supported the Delta-Northwest merger. When you did so, did you take into consideration the horrific conditions that would result in a city like Memphis because of this merger? Mr. Winston. No, I did not. I had a broader perspective on the merger. I qualified the danger of prospective assessment of mergers because what we know is after the merger, there are so many changes in the network, entry and exit, that may relate to the merger, but in this case, as we know, probably had nothing to do with the merger because April 2008 was when we had our hearing, and the merger went forward, and then we had the great recession. How one could isolate what the merger did versus the great recession is very, very difficult. So the great recession should have---- Mr. Cohen. Well, we had our problems in Memphis, there is truth to that. Should the great recession not have been made Memphis a better airport, as Mr. Mitchell says, because of the fact that you save money and you have less time. You are burning fuel sitting there waiting to take off as you do in Atlanta? And the great recession should have made Memphis a more profitable hub for Delta. You do not agree with that. Mr. Winston. I think that the problem with a place like Memphis, as other, what we call, not the largest hubs, is traffic. And again, if you are an airline, you want to fill your plane with people, you want to go where the people are. Mr. Cohen. Destination and origination. But nevertheless, airports have become like Federal Express except the airlines use people and Federal Express uses packages. And there are just places where you move people around. And Memphis is a good place. But let me ask you this. Mr. Mitchell, Dr. Winston thinks it would be good to have international competition. Do you want to have Air Shanghai be our primary carrier? Mr. Mitchell. I personally do not fly them too much. [Laughter.] But, you know---- Voice. Do they fly out of Memphis? Mr. Mitchell. The notion that you can justify a merger based upon some future change in the marketplace, such as cabotage and open skies, is really not responsible. It is not going to happen in our lifetime. None of the 30 pilots or however many pilots are behind me want to wake up one morning working to find themselves working for the Spanish government. It is too complicated, and it certainly is no justification for a merger. Mr. Cohen. Thank you, sir. I was in Raleigh-Durham recently, and I had a flight on US Airways. And I had some time, and so I was able to look at the scheduling chart and saw that American flew. And American had really much better prices and much better deals on your frequent flyers going to Washington from Raleigh-Durham. Is that one of the 12 routes that you are talking about, or is that one of the some 100 routes that Mr. Mitchell mentioned? Mr. Johnson. That is one of the 12 routes. Mr. Cohen. And what will happen there? Mr. Johnson. I imagine that we will retain a high level of service between Raleigh-Durham and Washington, D.C. Mr. Cohen. And will the price be US Airways prices or American Airlines prices? Mr. Johnson. I do not know. We have not talked about that at all. You know, as I said, we announced this merger 12 days ago, and those are things that we will work on over the coming year as we---- Mr. Cohen. You know, it is not just Memphis. It was St. Louis with TWA, it was Cincinnati, it has been Pittsburgh, lots of hub cities who put a lot of investment in their airports. And it was a business that is important to their communities, suffered because of mergers. Mr. Mitchell, do you see any of the hub cities that have served American or US Airways seeing a similar fate as Memphis, Pittsburgh, St. Louis, Cincinnati, and maybe others have because of mergers? Mr. Mitchell. Well, it is possible, and that is going to have to be a very fact-intensive analysis by DoJ. But certainly Philadelphia could be impacted, Charlotte could be impacted, Phoenix could be impacted because of the geography of adjacent hubs. Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Bachus. I appreciate my time. Mr. Johnson, when you come to Memphis, let me know. We will get some ribs, and we will see Fred Smith. Thank you. Mr. Johnson. I look forward to it. Mr. Bachus. Mr. Farenthold. Mr. Farenthold. Thank you very much. Mr. Chairman, when you started out, you mentioned some of the airlines had gone away. You skipped Braniff, a great Texas airline I grew up with. And I mention that because it really looks like the only thing consumers in the U.S. are looking on airlines right now is price. You go back to the days when Braniff and Southwest were competing or Southwest and Muse Air, and you see some great competition on something other than price. And really all you have got now playing in that is Virgin is trying to offer a little bit different experience. But to me, it really is becoming commoditized, and I am concerned as we get the number of carriers down, we drop--you said there are 12 direct flights. And you are saying there are only about 100 flights. Now, I am from Corpus Christie, Texas. To fly anywhere from Corpus Christie, you got to change planes in Dallas or Houston. I think there are a lot of folks who are in non-hub cities or not traveling to hub cities, they are in the same boat. So, how many routes with one stop are you all competing on? Mr. Johnson. I do not know the number, but what I can tell you is any route with one stop in which we are competing has very significant competition because everybody serves those routes on a one-stop basis. And those routes you have four or five---- Mr. Farenthold. And I do agree, US Airways typically has, I see, as lower fares when I am booking. I do not have the luxury I used to have of being able to travel on Wednesdays, you know. I have got to fly on the busier days. You were talking about no hub closures, and just looking at the map of the hubs, I am going to have to agree with Mr. Mitchell. The geography just does not seem to make sense. And AA has a history of closing hubs. I mean, you had Nashville and Raleigh-Durham, but on the East Coast now, you have Miami, Charlotte, Washington, Philadelphia, and New York. That is a whole lot of hubs in a closed proximity. How much assurance can you give us you are not going to shut one of those babies down? Mr. Kennedy. Congressman, a couple of considerations. If you look at the geographical distribution of the hubs, and you look also at the primary purpose of certain of those hubs, we have, as we have stated publicly, a high degree of confidence that the hubs that we have today will remain in place. For example, New York, which is the largest market in the world, that serves primarily for American. Mr. Farenthold. I am not worried about New York or L.A. Mr. Kennedy. But just by way of example, that New York serves as an international gateway, Miami as a gateway going south. And then when you look at Charlotte, which is a north- south hub, and you look at Dallas, which is, you know, primarily Midwest and going east and west. When you look at those, we find them to be highly complementary of one another, and so I think it is unlike what you have seen in perhaps other merger situations. Mr. Farenthold. You guys are familiar that on some of the blogs and messages boards, like Flyer Talk, you are getting 70 percent opposition to this merger from frequent flyers. It seems like you have got the public against you all on that. How are you all taking that? Mr. Johnson. Congressman, I have not seen those numbers. The feedback that we are getting from our customers, we are getting from the communities we serve, is exactly the opposite. Everybody is very excited about it. Mr. Farenthold. All right. Let me get back to the price competition, and maybe, Mr. Mitchell, you can help me out a little bit on this. I know you expressed a great deal of concern about sites requiring a great deal of personal information from you to determine what fares you are going to get. And I think this is partially the airline industry's fault in that they have made this so difficult with all of the ancillary fees. I get two free bags on United. My wife gets one free bag on United. I am a peasant on Delta, so I do not get any free bags. And Southwest gives everybody free bags. So, I mean, you have got to have some degree of information about the traveler. Do you think there is a way we can create a system where anonymously or semi-anonymously you can actually compare what the bottom line price between two airlines is going to be? Mr. Mitchell. Well, first of all, with respect to fares, we have that system today. You can go to any online or brick and mortar travel agency and understand all the options in the marketplace. But when it comes to ancillary fees, like check bag, baggage, and seat assignments, and so on, it is an absolute mess. For 5 years, the airlines' most important corporate customers have been demanding that these data on the checked bags be put into one place for comparison shopping. Mr. Farenthold. Let us get the airlines' response real quick, and I want to save about 15 seconds for me. Do you all have a solution to that? Mr. Kennedy. Well, let me just say a couple of things. First of all, American, US Air, we are strongly in favor of full transparency for consumers. That what we have been about. Mr. Farenthold. I am sorry, I am out of time. I do want to end this. I am concerned about this merger on a level as a frequent flyer. But we have given the opportunity to compete to all the other airlines. It seems to me with the merger that has gone through, it is only fair to offer you the opportunity, assuming you comply with the laws that are in place. But I remain concerned. It is very difficult for new players entering the competition. It is going to be a problem. And I will yield back. Mr. Bachus. Thank you, Mr. Farenthold. Those blogs, I think that 98 percent of the bloggers think that we are incompetent. [Laughter.] Mr. Farenthold. And you could do a scientific poll that we only get eight percent approval rating. [Laughter.] Mr. Bachus. Mr. Conyers. Mr. Conyers. Chairman Bachus, I want to ask a question you started off with. Is this merger really necessary? I think that there is a general thinking that there is support for it, but I wanted to ask, what if we really did not have this merger going on, Mr. Sagers? What do you think would happen? Mr. Sagers. Well, as I said, we are not going to see a liquidation of American Airlines I think in all likelihood. And I do not think we are going to see frequent liquidations of any carriers in the foreseeable future. We would preserve such competition as we have left for the near term. And I think that we would see perhaps an additional degree of market discipline for cost containment that we have forfeited, you know, in our airlines competition policy. Mr. Conyers. Mr. Mitchell, if this hearing was not held and that we would continue with our business, what do you think would go on in the industry? Mr. Mitchell. If the merger were not to occur? Mr. Conyers. Yes. Mr. Mitchell. Well, I think, you know, we will several network carriers competing aggressively against one another. I think both carriers will do just fine. Let us be honest. This is going to really help creditors. It is a better deal for labor. But it is all about the revenue, and if this merger were approved, we are going to three network carriers. The ability to coordinate fare hikes will be unprecedented. Last year there were 15 proposed fare hikes. Eight were rejected by one or two carriers. The probability that they will be rejected in the future begins to go way down when you have three carriers and coordinated effects. We have to balance three network carriers, if it comes to it, with more transparency in order to preserve the marketplace and competition. Mr. Kennedy. Congressman Conyers---- Mr. Bachus. I was going to suggest, Mr. Conyers, and we will give you an extra minute to let the two representatives of the airlines answer your question. Mr. Conyers. All right. Mr. Kennedy. Congressman, I have been in the airline business for 29 years. I joined American in 1984. And in all those years, this is the most competitive business I think on the planet. It is ultra-competitive. And what is going to happen when these airlines combine, that competition will remain. We simply are trying to become a stronger, more vibrant competitor against those already in place. I think it is important for this industry. It is important when you look at the international alliances and the composition of both Star and the Sky Team Alliance. And so this is going to give consumers more choices. It is going to allow us to better compete with the other airlines. Mr. Conyers. Well, there is nobody that does not think you are not coming out of bankruptcy. Mr. Johnson. Congressman, if I might---- Mr. Conyers. Yes, please. Mr. Johnson. It is, in fact, the case, and I thank Mr. Mitchell for noticing how well US Airways has been doing recently. And it is, in fact, the case that American has had a terrific restructuring and could easily emerge on a stand-alone basis. That is not really the question. The question is, why are we doing this and for whose benefit? Our customers have been telling us that they want a bigger network. They want a network competitive with United and Delta. They want more choices and more opportunities. They have been telling us that directly. And discouragingly for Mr. Kennedy and I, they have been telling us indirectly by leaving American Airlines and leaving US Airways to fly on Delta and United's new bigger networks. So we help our customers by this merger. Second, we help our employees. US Airways is a smaller airline. Has a smaller network and a revenue generating disadvantage versus the other big airlines. As a result of that, to be successful we have to pay our employees less, and we have made a bargain with our employees over time that we can give them good jobs and good benefits, but they are going to be less than those enjoyed by their counterparts at Delta and United. By merging and creating a network like Delta's and United's, we can pay our employees more, and we have an agreed path to pay them the same as Delta and United. In addition, when we talk to people in our principle cities, in these hubs that we have talked about so many times today, they do not talk to us about price issues or price concerns. They talk to us about finding ways for there to be more service, finding ways to grow the hub, finding ways to create more destinations for travel. All of that can be accomplished by this merger, Congressman. And that is what we are trying to do today. Mr. Conyers. Well, you are both doing okay now. You know, what I hear you saying is that it may get tougher later, and we want to be prepared, and so we are going to merge now. And I am not sure if that goes along with the American Antitrust Institute. Do either of you know what the economic scholars are thinking in terms of this kind of discussion, Mr. Sagers? Mr. Sagers. Yeah. I mean, you know, there are a lot of econometric study of airline fare changes. And it is in some dispute, but there is substantial evidence that on specific city pairs, prices go up when concentration goes up. And we hear a lot, by the way, about average prices going down, and that is very misleading. Mr. Bachus. Mr. Johnson, you respond, and then we will---- Mr. Johnson. Sure. I mean, first, I will respond, but I want to make sure that we give Dr. Winston an opportunity to respond because he is the expert on airline pricing here today. What I can tell you is that after this merger, this is going to be a very, very competitive industry. There will be four airlines with each having less than 25 percent market share and each with nationwide networks that are very competitive. There will be two airlines, Alaska and Jet Blue, that provide significant competition in regions--Alaska in the west, Jet Blue in the east. Mr. Conyers. It will be more competitive after this merger. Mr. Johnson. I expect so. Mr. Conyers. And what would it be if there were not a merger? Mr. Johnson. In fact, the industry is very competitive now, Congressman, and it is going to be very competitive after this merger. After this merger, we will have Southwest continuing as a low cost, Jet Blue continuing as a carrier with a significant cost advantage. But three very fast-growing low-cost airlines, Spirit, Allegiant, Virgin America, all providing competition regionally and, as they grow, extra regionally. Mr. Bachus. Thank you. And I think that is what Mr. Winston's and others' testimony said. Mr. Holding? Mr. Holding. Thank you. I will preface my remarks by saying that I am a very happy frequent flyer of American Airlines. It serves the routes that I travel in best. I know an airline that was omitted in our discussions, Piedmont Airlines, which is a very fine North Carolina based airline. It was Airline of the Year in 1984. And I spent many an enjoyable mile flown on Piedmont Airlines. I fly out of Raleigh-Durham International, and it is a very important airline to my constituents. It is an economic booster for the Research Triangle Park that is very important to our businesses there. It is even finer than the Memphis Airport, I might add, the brand new, newly-built. How much is the overlap between American and US Air in the Raleigh-Durham market, Mr. Kennedy? Mr. Johnson. The overlap, I think, is just on the Washington, D.C. flight. American serves its hubs from Raleigh- Durham. We serve our hubs from Raleigh-Durham. And so I think the overlap is just limited to that one flight. Mr. Holding. Right. And I noticed that the prices on American and US Air are virtually the same flying out of Raleigh-Durham to D.C. How much overlap do you have in Charlotte? Mr. Johnson. Virtually zero. American serves Charlotte to its hubs, and we have a very large connecting hub in Charlotte. Mr. Holding. Right. And I believe US Air serves D.C. out of Charlotte. I think they are probably the carrier that has the most flights out of Charlotte to D.C. What would you anticipate that the price difference is between Raleigh to D.C. and Charlotte to D.C. is? Mr. Johnson. I do not, but it sounds like you might know. [Laughter.] Mr. Holding. It costs a lot more money to fly from Charlotte to Washington than it does from Raleigh to Washington. And that is concerning. It is very concerning. Your direct competitors have a route from Raleigh to Washington, whereas US Air does not have a direct competitor in Charlotte, so it costs a lot more money. And that would certainly impact the folks who live in my congressional district. Do you anticipate that the fares would go up significantly in the future in Raleigh to Washington when you are no longer competing with one another? Mr. Johnson. Congressman, as we have said before, I mean, any discussion about fares or that sort of planning and strategy is something that is down the road for us. And, you know, those are issues that we will be discussing really with respect to fares and things like that, probably not until after the merger. Mr. Holding. So what are the top three factors that you would have under consideration when you are making your pricing decisions down the future, whether it is in this route or another route? Mr. Johnson. The top three factors: demand, the cost of providing the service, the opportunities to provide service over a hug. In other words, if we can attract passengers to go more places than the original destination, the hub, it gives us an opportunity to operate more efficiently and provide a more cost-effective service. Mr. Holding. And the factor of whether or not you have a direct competitor in that market is not in the top three factors? Mr. Johnson. The airline industry is a very competitive business, and we compete, and we compete in virtually every market that we operate. Mr. Holding. American Airlines operates a direct flight out of Raleigh-Durham to London Heathrow. It seems to be a popular flight. Do you know if that is a profitable flight or an unprofitable flight? Mr. Kennedy. Congressman, I am not aware of whether it is or is not profitable, but it is a service we have had for a number of years. And as you know, with the combination we had British Airways in terms of our joint alliance, we offer a tremendous variety of service into Heathrow and elsewhere. And I would hope that that service you are referencing continues, but I just do not know about its profitability. Mr. Holding. Is there any consideration of expanding the international flights out of Raleigh-Durham Airport that you know of? Mr. Kennedy. You know, one of the things about the industry is that we are always looking at where it is that we can expand our service. As I had mentioned, you know, we have an aircraft for 500 new aircraft that we just did the summer before last. And that is going to allow us to not only replacing aging aircraft, but also to expand our service. So our route network people at the company spend a tremendous amount of time looking at opportunities as to whether or not we can increase service, I do not know. I am going to have to ask our folks to look into this particular question and get back to you. But if the demand is there, then we would like to increase the service and provided, of course, that we can get, you know, landing rights on the other side of the equation. Mr. Holding. Thank you, and I would appreciate that follow- up, not only on the international routes, but on the question of competition and how that will be in your analysis as far as the Raleigh-Durham Airport is considered. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bachus. Thank you, Mr. Holding. Mr. Johnson? Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing. And when I heard that my esteemed colleague, Steve Cohen, had said some things about the Memphis Airport and kind of compared it to the Atlanta Hartsfield- Jackson Airport, I had to make sure that I came. [Laughter.] Mr. Cohen. I am sure it hurts. Mr. Johnson of Georgia. And I tell you, this is not to take anything away from the Memphis Airport, and Memphis may, in fact, have the best ribs and that kind of thing. But you will never have an experience like you will when you go through Atlanta's Hartsfield-Jackson Airport. Mr. Cohen. That is true. [Laughter.] Mr. Johnson of Georgia. I mean, the hospitality, the real southern hospitality, the ambiance, the warmth of the people there, and the food. I mean, everybody knows about Pascal's Fried Chicken that you can get out there at the airport. Everybody knows about the good peaches that come out of Georgia, and they go into that peach cobbler that just melts right in your mouth. You know, peanuts, pecans, Coca Cola. I mean, it cannot compare. It is incomparable. And so let us make sure that we clear the air on that issue. I do love barbecue every once in a while, but I can eat some fried chicken every day. [Laughter.] Now, Mr. Steven Johnson, thank you for testifying. Thank you all for testifying today on this issue. I am interested in the effects of this merger on union and non-union employees. You have indicated in your submitted testimony that the combination of these airlines will generate substantial net synergies, and establish the financial foundation for a more stable company, and better opportunities for our 100,000 employees. However, current and former employees may also be concerned about how the merger will affect benefits, such as their health care benefits and pensions. Mr. Johnson, how does the merger affect the benefits of current and former employees? Mr. Johnson. Well, Congressman, first I want to comment that the statement that you made about Atlanta I think has a lot to do with why most people consider Delta the most profitable and successful airline in the United States today. And that is one of the reasons why we need to create this new network to compete with things like that. So thank you very much for that. Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you. Mr. Johnson. But could I ask Mr. Kennedy to answer this question? He is very deeply involved in the negotiations about that and more familiar with it. Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Sure. Mr. Kennedy? Mr. Kennedy. That was very well done, Mr. Johnson. Well, first of all, with regard to current and former employees, as to retirees, we are still working through our bankruptcy and determining what will happen with retiree benefits. I will say that as we have with current employees where we have changed the medical insurance benefits upon retirement, we are seeking to do the same with regard to retiree employees. With regard to pensions, as you know, we were successful in freezing our pension plans rather than terminating them, and that is terrific for all employees because we will pay all the benefits under our pension plans to our employees. We are not sending those obligations to the PBGC for payment. I know that has been done in the past, but we worked hard to go ahead and freeze those plans rather than terminate, and that is a success coming out of this bankruptcy. Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you. Do you see any changes to the basic benefits occurring in years to come? Mr. Kennedy. I do not know what will happen in future years, but I will tell you that particularly with both our union employees and our non-union employees, when we structured our new contracts with our organized labor groups, we did so in a way that would provide to the company productivity improvements, but would also provide for pay increases for our employees. And we now have new 6-year contracts. Now, we do have work to do with this merger in terms of getting, you know, one contract among all the labor groups, but we have made substantial progress in getting that finished and ready to go. So I believe that while some of the changes we made with regard to productivity improvements are difficult, that employees will benefit not only from the pay increases we have in place, but as we grow the airline in the future. Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Kennedy. I yield back. Mr. Bachus. Thank you. Mr. Rothfus. Mr. Rothfus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, panel, for being here today. It has been a great discussion. I live about five miles from the Greater Pittsburgh Airport. When Pittsburgh lost its hub status about 10 years ago, we dropped from over 500 flights to fewer than 50, and we lost thousands of jobs in the process, and a world class airport remains under-utilized. It has created an inconvenience for the traveling public and also for our business community to have not as many flights as we used to. Currently we have about 41 US Air flights and 15 American Airlines flights out of Greater Pitt. Can either Mr. Kennedy or Johnson give us any kind of assurance that the number of flights will not be reduced out of Greater Pitt? Mr. Johnson. Congressman, those are flights that we operate to our respective hubs. They work really well for both of us. I would anticipate that the merger is not going to change air service to Pittsburgh materially in any way. I will say that the people of Pittsburgh will have some advantages associated with those flights being combined on one carrier. They will be able to fly online to more places. They will be able to accumulate their frequent flyer miles on one airline instead of two. Travel will be more convenient. But I do not anticipate that it will change the air service to Pittsburgh at all. Mr. Rothfus. Has there been discussion about post-merger, changing hubs at all, moving hubs, consolidating hubs? Mr. Johnson. I think just the opposite. We anticipate that we are very happy with the hubs that we have. As Mr. Kennedy said, they are geographically diverse. They are functionally diverse. They all work for the separate airlines, so we anticipate they will be very successful after the merger. We do not anticipate adding any hubs. Mr. Rothfus. Well, I would like to talk a little bit about some of the hubs you have, particularly those in the New York area, you know, JFK, La Guardia, and then down to Philadelphia. You always hear about constant overcrowding, delays. Leisure and Travel magazine, for example, asked travelers to rank the worst airports in the country, and the top three are La Guardia, Philadelphia, and JFK. And here we have not only an under-utilized airport out in western Pennsylvania that I think could serve as a hub, and I would just ask the parties to consider that as you do your planning. Moreover, you know, we have a recent drilling arrangement out there at Greater Pittsburgh Airport that is going to be a benefit, or may be a benefit, to airlines to consider that. So again, I would ask you to consider that. Both of you testified a little bit about some of the small and middle-sized communities, and I have some of those in my district. And I'm just wondering if you either of you might opine on expansion to some of the underserved communities that might result from this merger. Mr. Johnson. If I could, Congressman, again we have not done any of that planning yet, and we will not be able to do any of that planning until we close the merger. But one of the great opportunities of this merger is the complementary nature of the networks. I had mentioned in my opening remarks that there are some 130 cities that American Airlines serves that US Airways does not serve, 62 cities that US Airways serves that American Airlines does not serve. When we make decisions about serving any market, particularly small- and medium-sized markets, there is an economic calculus that we undertake, and that economic calculus involves determining what the revenue potential is and then subtracting, if you will, the projected costs. And when we at US Airways look at new service, one of the big costs are developing infrastructure, recruiting and training employees, and creating a marketing presence in a community. In Pennsylvania where there are a number of communities that US Airways serves and American Airlines does not serve, that infrastructure exists. We have really quality employees there already, and there is a great marketing presence as you know. Those are great opportunities for expanding service from the American Airlines hub. Mr. Rothfus. We would be looking for, you know, opportunities to expand even additional communities, such as Johnstown, Pennsylvania. You know, related facilities that US Air currently has in Pittsburgh include an operations center that employs about 1,800 people. Now, old American or American has an operations center in Dallas. What is the consideration for the operation centers for the respective airlines, and what can we expect to happen to the operation center at Greater Pitt? Mr. Johnson. Well, that is something we would have to discuss. We obviously will operate separate airlines until we close the merger, but then we will continue to operate separate airlines for, I would think, 15 to 18 months. That will continue to require two operation centers. During that period of time we will talk and plan and see what works in terms of ultimately combining those operation centers or, you know, finding an alternative way to manage that. Mr. Rothfus. I guess you are considering then a consolidation of the two at some point in the future? Mr. Johnson. I think in general airlines, you know, operate from a central operating system--sorry, central operating center. And I would expect that at some point in time, once we have completely merged the airlines and their operations that we would as well. Mr. Rothfus. We also have a maintenance center at Greater Pitt. Any consideration on that with US Air? Mr. Johnson. We have about 1,000 maintenance employees engaged in heavy maintenance in Pittsburgh. It is a very senior workforce, so it is reducing a little because of retirements of our great employees, so we expect that to be about 975 employees at the end of the year. But it is a central part of our maintenance operation. We expect it to be not affected in any significant way by the merger, but as we plan and we look out into the future, it is a little hard to say at this point. Mr. Rothfus. Again, I would ask you to consider taking a look at Greater Pitt in any post-merger---- Mr. Johnson. Obviously we are very close with your colleagues in the delegation and the governor, and even our friends in Philadelphia have asked that we do that. And I promise in the next couple of weeks to go to Pittsburgh myself and talk to the city and civil leaders there about these issues. Mr. Rothfus. Thank you. A question for Dr. Winston, a fascinating---- Mr. Bachus. Well, actually---- Mr. Rothfus. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bachus. Thank you. Ms. Delbene. Ms. Delbene. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Johnson, you brought up earlier the demand from your customers to have a larger network so that you would be able to serve more of their needs and to be more competitive with some of the larger carriers. Where do you see the balance between having that larger network internally versus having partnerships to meet those demands? Mr. Johnson. Well, I think we would always prefer to do it internally if we could. Partnerships serve a purpose that accomplishes something like a network, but an imperfect replication of a network. And you usually undertake that when there is some reason that you cannot create the network you want. Usually national ownership rules of airlines and things like that, bilateral agreements between countries for international flying. Those are the kinds of things that lead to partnerships and business arrangements because you cannot under the law achieve the network you want. Ms. Delbene. And when you look, and Mr. Kennedy as well, when you look at after the merger, do you intend to maintain the partnerships that you have today? And I guess I will preface that with I am from the other side of the country, from Washington State. And Alaska, for example, is a big carrier in our neck of the woods, and so the partnerships are very important. Mr. Kennedy. Alaskan Air has been a very important partner of ours, and so while, again, as Mr. Johnson said, we have not made any determinations of what the network will look afterwards. But that partnership has been very important to us, and it is a great airline. And so, you know, I would hope that that partnership would continue. Ms. Delbene. And I think Mr. Mitchell brought up the NDC earlier, and I wanted to give a chance to either you, Mr. Johnson, or you, Mr. Kennedy, to give your viewpoint price transparency, and NDC, and you feel that would be impacted after the merger, or just your view on NDC in general. Mr. Kennedy. Well, two things. One is, and perhaps I had said earlier this earlier, and I apologize if I did. But we are strongly in favor of price transparency to consumers. It is very important and always has been and needs to continue. I think where we disagree is talking about whether or not there ought to be a regulation or legislation that mandates how you need to provide that information. We do not think that is appropriate. We think particularly with the advent of technological changes that there are different ways to get information to consumers than what might be suggested otherwise. I am not particularly familiar with the IATA proposed regulation or measure that is referenced here. We will be happy to look at it and provide additional information, but I am just not familiar with it. Ms. Delbene. Okay. And your concerns, Mr. Mitchell, about NDC are not necessarily specific to the merger. You have concerns generally, is that correct? Mr. Mitchell. They are specific to the merger because the merger will allow an acceleration of this NDC in the marketplace. US Airways has long been a maverick in distribution issues. For example, in 2001 and '02 when the airlines withheld web fares from travel agencies and corporate travel departments, they only provided them to orbits. US Airways broke rank and began to provide the fares to the marketplace, likewise in 2006. So the big American swallowing up the maverick US Airways is only going to allow this to go forward more quickly. And once embedded in the largest marketplace in the world, it is going to cascade across all the other markets. The problem is no publicly available fares and schedules will be available anymore. It kills transparency. I will get a deal that is crafted just for me, and I will have nowhere to go to compare it publicly to see if I really got a deal at all. Ms. Delbene. And, Dr. Winston, since you are the pricing expert--I think someone said earlier--what do you think in terms of prices, and competitiveness, and the ability for consumers to have transparency? What do you think the impact of the merger or NDC has on that? Mr. Winston. Well, keep in mind, there is something very special about this industry. A small percent of the people do a huge amount of the flying. You know, something on the order of five or six percent of the travelers do like 40 percent of the flying. It is absolutely ludicrous to think that an airline will think, hey, a really good strategy for us to not have transparent prices for people who fly all the time who probably have these things memorized, and all of a sudden one day they do not what they are. I mean, talk about a way of alienating customers. I mean, I can imagine many strategies that are concocted all the time. I do not know where they come from, but this is just not how you make money in regular real businesses. So I am certainly supportive of concerns about transparency, but I think, you know, the nature of travel is that this would just be crazy to do, and almost an embarrassment really for anybody. If an airline proposed to do this, I would hope they would feel embarrassed for doing it. Ms. Delbene. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Bachus. Thank you. Mr. Marino. Mr. Marino. Thank you, Chairman. Good afternoon, gentleman. Let me begin by saying I support the merger because the employees want it and because of the gentlemen sitting behind you in uniform took the time to be here. So I thank you for doing that as well. I do have some concerns, and my previous life was a prosecutor. So I ask short questions. I expect a yes or no answer. And if you have to follow it up, make it very brief. What is going to happen to consumer rates? What is going to happen to consumer rates? Are they going to go up? Mr. Johnson. No. Mr. Marino. Are they going to go down? Mr. Johnson. I do not know. As we have said, Dr. Winston is the man who can best describe that. But the studies show that notwithstanding the earlier mergers that we have talked about today, there have not been price increases of the sort that Mr. Mitchell and Professor Sagers suggest might happen here. So I do not expect prices to go up across the board. Mr. Marino. All right. I did some private practice in my time and did mergers and acquisitions. And whatever we call them, mergers, acquisitions, takeovers, you know, that is not important to me at this point. And in my experience I am told that they will reduce costs, and then several months later when I asked where the prices are, they said the prices do not go down, but the answer is, well, we kept them the same and prevented them from going up. And then several months later, the prices went up. So what is going to happen in the first 6 months, in the first year, in the first 3 years about pricing? Mr. Kennedy. Let me just say a couple of things. One is, we do not know what will happen. You know, the airline industry is, as I have mentioned, a highly competitive business with very thin margins. And that is going to exist after the merger as it is today. And that has an effect on pricing and what those levels are. And so I do not know what will happen. Pricing will simply be competing on price and schedule in the future as we do today. Mr. Marino. Thank you. Mr. Johnson. Congressman, I could just add that it will be a very competitive business, in many ways more competitive as we create an alternative for consumers to the very large networks of Delta and United. There will be four big airlines, each with less than 25 percent market share, each with a national network to serve customers, all competing with each other. Two airlines that have very vigorous competitors on a regional basis, Alaska Airlines and Jet Blue, and three fast- growing low-cost carriers that compete with us at various points around the United States. It is a very competitive industry, and that competition is not going to decrease as a result of the merger. Mr. Marino. I think I know what the answer to this is going to be, but with all due respect I have to ask it. I am assuming that there has been no backroom deals that someone in the near future is going to get whacked whether it is the employees, or the pension, or the pilots? Mr. Johnson. There have been none. Mr. Kennedy. That is correct. Mr. Marino. All right. I live in the 10th congressional district of Pennsylvania, northeast, north-central Pennsylvania. How am I doing on time, sir? Voice. Fine. Mr. Marino. Small airport Montoursville. I have to drive to Montoursville to get to that. But then to get to D.C., I have to take a plane from Williamsport, to Philadelphia, to D.C. It takes over 6 hours when it is on time. I drive because it is 4, 4 and a half hours and it is less expensive. Is anything going to improve for the smaller areas in which I live where my county, Lycoming County, is about 130,000 people, but people have to travel into that county from surrounding counties to catch a plane? Mr. Johnson. Well, I cannot speak to your specific---- Mr. Marino. Could you put it in writing for me and get it to me at some point? Mr. Johnson. I would be happy to. Mr. Marino. Okay. And my favorite pet peeve, and I am going to raise this. We all fly, but there are certain reasons why we have to change a flight. And no more who it is, what airlines. If I am changing a flight 4 or 5 days in advance or find out at the last minute that something has happened that I want to change that flight, the price goes up substantially. By the same token, when I call, just happen to be 6 days ahead of time instead of 7 days ahead of time, the price doubles, even though there are empty seats. Can you explain to me why? And I know one of the answers is going to say, well, you do not want to wait until the last moment, but you have got to come up with a better answer than that, please. Mr. Johnson. I understand that sometimes consumers find that frustrating, but we offer a variety of products. We will sell you a ticket that is fully refundable, and we sell you tickets that are non-refundable. And in general, if we sell a ticket that is not refundable and then someone has to change it or seek a refund, what we do is we charge them what they would have paid for a non-refundable ticket in general--or, sorry, for a fully-refundable ticket in general. That is how that works. Mr. Marino. Does anyone wish to respond to any of my questions? I know I focused on that, but quickly, please. I think I am running out of time or have run out of time. Mr. Bachus. Yes, you have. Mr. Marino. I have run out of time? Would you like to put it in writing and get it to me, gentlemen, please? Thank you. Mr. Bachus. Thank you. Mr. Garcia. Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to turn your attention from the delights of Memphis or the incredible southern hospitality to the most southern airport in our country, which is the Miami International Airport. As you and Mr. Kennedy know, we have a huge dead service at that airport, and part of it was making sure we had one of the best terminals for American Airlines. Do you feel that we are going to cut any flights there? Are we going to increase traffic there and thereby help out our airport? Mr. Kennedy. I do not know specifically what we will do in the future at Miami, but---- Mr. Garcia. Mr. Kennedy, I need you to be a little more specific because this not Memphis, and this is not a small regional airport. This is the crown jewel, to some degree, of international flying into Latin America, which I assume was one of the reasons that this becomes an interesting target. So I want a specific answer because in my community we are leveraged, as you well know, to the hilt because of this airport. And I am committed to this process going forward, but I want to understand what impact it is going to have on my community. Mr. Kennedy. Congressman, I am to be specific as I can. Mr. Garcia. Okay. Mr. Kennedy. American Airlines is committed to Miami, and we have been for many, many years. It is, as you know, a tremendous gateway. Not only is it a terrific O&D traffic right in Miami, but also going south into Latin America. And it is something that is a prized part of our operation. And so while I cannot specifically say what will happen in the future, I can tell you that if you look at the history of the last 5, even 10 years, we have grown our operation significantly, and we were a major proponent of the development of that airport. And I specifically in my previous job at American ran our real estate and construction business, so I know exactly what you are talking about in the terms of the debt load at Miami. But I also understand that that airport now is a first class airport. The new train, the new terminals, are absolutely fantastic. And we remain enormously committed---- Mr. Garcia. It does not smell like ribs, though, unless the Memphis Airport. [Laughter.] Mr. Kennedy. No, sir, but it is a terrific airport, and everything we do in Miami is wonderful. Mr. Garcia. We had Secretary Napolitano down last week, and I appreciated the American Airlines representative there to help us. Clearly they are the biggest carrier at the airport; therefore, it is important their participation. One of the problems as you well know is that we have a huge number of passengers have missed connecting flights. Obviously we are very worried about the sequestration, the impact that is going to have. Almost 40 plus thousand people miss connecting flights on a monthly basis because the border and customs agents, we just do not have enough of them. As you well know, we built one of the largest reception centers in the country. We cannot fully staff it during peak times because there are not enough workers. So one of the things that we propose with the Secretary, and she seemed very willing to listen to, is the ability of us picking up some of the costs of providing government workers. So possible overtimes, training people, even paying for having, what do you call it, a global pass entry system. Is this something that the combined airlines could look at doing simply to increase your efficiency and help us with that cost as we go forward? Mr. Kennedy. Throughput at the airport is very important, and those lost connections just end up costing not only the customer, but cost us, so we are with you there. I think we have to balance whatever those costs might be to pay a portion of those costs against the lost revenue, if you will, and the inefficiency of having those lost connections. And we will be more than happy to work with you to see if that is something we should do. Mr. Garcia. If you could get back to me on that because it is certainly something that I know it would probably be a lot cheaper to pay a little bit of overtime and not have, you know, 100 passengers or 50 passengers miss a flight every few hours because of--I am sure my colleagues on the other side would call it government inefficiency. I just call it maximum capacity. And so we have got to make it more efficient to do this. But having you help us with that I think is key to continuing our growth. I think we had a growth of 17 percent last year, so we are very proud of that, and we are proud we do not smell like ribs either. So it is Cuban coffee, Versailles Cuban coffee that wafts around in our airport. Just one final question. In terms of as you look at size, right, clearly you want to be more competitive. Clearly you want to offer more. Our airport is one of those throughput places. Do you think we are going to get more folks in South Florida working for you, or do you think we are going to reduce the workforce, because we have been increasing, right? And so I just want to---- Mr. Johnson. I can say just to echo Mr. Kennedy's comments that people at US Airways are very excited about Miami and very excited about adding back to the US Airways network in effect. In fact, there are some 35 cities just on the east coast alone that US Airways has service that are not served from Miami. All of those are opportunities to look at. Mr. Garcia. It is almost like living in the United States it is so nice there. Mr. Johnson. I spend a lot of time in Miami, so I agree that it is a great place. So, you know, I think you should be optimistic about Miami's future. It is a critical part of the operation. Latin America and South America in particular is going to be one of the fastest-growing parts of the global economy. And the New American Airlines is very well placed to take advantage of that, and there is no better place than Miami as a jumping off point for that. So I would be optimistic about the future. Mr. Garcia. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bachus. Thank you. Mr. Jeffries. Mr. Jeffries. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The American airline industry is certainly extremely critical to our economy, to our commerce, to ability to keep families together, our social network, educational infrastructure. By any measure, the airline industry is critical, an important part of who we are. And I think all of us, and certainly the American public, want to see the industry succeed, be successful, be able to offer competitive rates and transport people to their desired destinations. But the experience that I think the industry has had over the last 35 years paints a very different story or very troubling story just when you consider the raw numbers. I gather there have been 160 bankruptcies since 1978. US Air has experienced two in the last decade. American Airlines is coming out of bankruptcy. Part of the response seems to have been the mergers. We are now looking at our 3rd significant merger in the last 5 years. I think there is bankruptcy fatigue, and we may be soon experiencing merger fatigue. But I would be interested in getting either of the two airline representatives' perspectives on why over the last 35 years has the industry struggled to such a degree. And what confidence can you convey to us that this merger is part of the solution as opposed to simply another band aid on what has been a persistent wound that we have seen over the last 35 years? Mr. Kennedy. You are correct in your assessment of the industry. It is one that has been fraught with difficulties. It is a volatile industry. It is one, however, that is also, as you point out, so vitally important. And, you know, there are a number of measures that affect the industry, whether it is high fuel prices, whether it is problems overseas with different stability of governments, even problems, sort of affect our industry and the demand for air travel. And so that is not going to go away. But what it does mean I think for not only our companies but also for this country is we need to have a strong airline industry, not only to be able to service our own country, but also compete against the other major international airlines. And so to answer your question, I believe that this merger, while not solving those external factors that so much affect our industry, but having a healthy carrier and a healthy industry, this will help us be stronger, and be able to compete, and be able to withstand some of those external shocks that affect us that are outside of our control. Mr. Johnson. I mean, it really has been a very fascinating 35 years, and particularly the last 10 have been very difficult as we have, you know, lurched from crisis to crisis. But the airline industry is, I think, finally becoming more stable, and as Mr. Kennedy points out, that is a really good thing. We have finally gotten ourselves, I think, to a point where we have the ability to, you know, to earn a fair return on our investment, invest in new routes and improve service, to provide good pay and job security for our employees. I mean, over the course of the last decade, I think we destroyed 160,000 jobs or something like that in our industry. And during that decade, we closed something like a dozen hubs. I think they have all been mentioned here today. But we have finally gotten ourselves to a point where we can continue to pay--oh, I am sorry--where we can pay our employees, create good job security, create advancement opportunities for them, allow them to be more comfortable having a career in the airline industry. And we have gotten ourselves to the point as an industry where we can make commitments to hubs like we have made today and feel comfortable that we are going to be able to provide that service and continue to grow it. Bu most importantly, what this has allowed the airlines to do is become more competitive, be more stable and, therefore, to be more competitive, to provide more choice to customers, provide more products to customers, to provide more innovation to customers both in the United States and around the world. Mr. Jeffries. Everyone has mentioned these external shocks to the system, whether that is fluctuating oil prices and war, terrorist attacks. I think even sequestration was mentioned by Dr. Winston. You said what was important for the industry is to have the capability to match capacity with demand. And you indicated that in your view, mergers would better enable these two companies, and I gather, anyone in the industry to do that in a more effective and efficient way. Your theory seems to be based on the notion that the bigger the company the better it is able to deal with matching capacity with demand. Now, that seems to be a too big to fail theory, and we have had some experience in that regard in other areas. But I want to give you an opportunity, one, to indicate why you think mergers will put these companies in a better position, and also if you could reference some of the other tools that are available that you indicated in your testimony, to enable companies, perhaps aside from a merger, to match capacity and demand. Mr. Winston. Are you asking me? All right. The key thing in matching capacity with demand is an optimal network, all right? Now, what you have to understand is that for 40 years, airlines did not have an optimal network. Matter of fact, they had a sub-optimal network; that is, they were regulated from 1938 to '78, okay? And they were not allowed to enter new routes if they wanted to. It was difficult even to exit routes. So they started off way behind in a very bad network, all right? So it is not an accident that Southwest has had advantages because they were not a legacy carrier. They were intrastate and were able to develop their network from scratch, so to speak, or, you know, in a better position under deregulation, the other carriers, all right? So really what we are observing, believe it or not, is still the development of an optimal network, okay, subject to a lot of shocks. It does not necessarily mean that bigger is better, but given where you were often is to the extent that you can balance traffic in particular areas, coordinate the traffic better, and move your fleet around as appropriate in response to changes in macro-economic conditions. Now, of course, the best tool is also going to be pricing, right? You want to fill up your plane, you lower your prices. You obviously have high demand, you are not going to have to do that. So in combination with pricing, improved service, all things that will help generate demand at the same time that you have the freedom and flexibility to have a network with a fleet that is aligned with that network, that gets you optimization in terms of your operations and what your carrier is capable of doing. To the extent that the merger is a tool in creating that optimal network--that is, you have some of your network developed, but it would be a lot better if you could have another part of it included with your network, balancing traffic flows, coordinating operations, so on and so forth, that is where the mergers can help. But let me stress that this is something that takes a long time to achieve properly. The carriers just do not come together and that is it. They start then pruning the network. Now, if you want to see a very clear example of this, look at the railroad industry. That whole industry has completely transformed to be state-of-the-art of the world where it was close to liquidation because it was deregulated and did a lot of restructuring through mergers. And that is an extreme case, but in its own way, the airlines are trying to do a similar thing. And mergers are a tool. Not the only tool. They do not always work brilliantly, but that is really what they are about. Mr. Jeffries. Thank you. Mr. Bachus. Thank you. We are going to go in a second round of just Mr. Cohen and I, so we have got about 10 minutes left. But anybody in the audience who needs to take a break now, you can go ahead. Mr. Winston, you are absolutely right. The regulations almost put the railroads out of business, and deregulation saved them. And we are seeing continuous innovation in the rail industry. And it was capital starved and was not able to generate enough profit to maintain its infrastructure. And so that brings me really to my first question to Mr. Johnson or Mr. Kennedy. You are going to realize changes in efficiency in operating structure of how many, a billion and a half? A billion, billion and a half, is that what the number---- Mr. Johnson. We have announced net synergies of more than a billion dollars. Those synergies on a gross basis, if you will, are larger than that, but the creation of approximately $1.5 billion of synergies or $1.4 billion of synergies has allowed us to make the arrangements with our employees that we have talked about here today. We have invested about $450 million a year in our employee wages, and benefits, and retirement. Mr. Bachus. So of that $1.5 billion, almost $500 million will be in improved compensation for employees? Mr. Johnson. Four hundred fifty. Mr. Bachus. Somewhere in that neighborhood. And how will that other billion, how will it be used, and how will that benefit the traveling public? Mr. Johnson. I think in many ways. First, it will create a more financially sound and stable company. We talked in response to Congressman Jeffries' questions about the shocks and the difficulties that the airline industry faced over the last decade. First and foremost, we will be able to better withstand shocks and better able to deal with the uncertainties and the cyclicality of the airline industry. The second thing is it will allow us to invest in our airline. We have already talked about the investment that we are making in our employees and their well-being. But as Mr. Kennedy can talk about in more detail, it allows us to buy new airplanes, to provide new products to customers, and importantly, to have the financial wherewithal to experiment and try different models and add destinations to our system, knowing that if they do not work, we have the financial wherewithal to deal with that. So it allows us to take more risk and through that, provide benefits to our customers. Mr. Bachus. Now, I have noticed that the airlines that generate enough profits to buy new airplanes, more fuel- efficient airplanes, more modern airplanes, do tend to either capture market share or they have to, if you have to compete with, you are at a disadvantage. So I would think that you would modernize your fleet, as you say, is a part of the plan? Mr. Johnson. At US Airways we have been modernizing our fleet for the last 6 or 7 years, and that is certainly the experience we have had, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Kennedy. I would just add that customers really are asking for, demanding a new modern fleet not only for the comfort, but for the products and services that we offer. And that is all very capital intensive and inordinately expensive. And so we need those funds to be able to continue to invest in this business along the way. Mr. Bachus. And American has not been able to make those investments. At least it has become more difficult. Mr. Kennedy. Indeed the last 10 years have been very difficult for us, and we have really struggled financially. We finally made the announcement of the aircraft orders a year and a half ago, and that is what is necessary because we had quite an aging fleet at American and not a fuel efficient fleet. And given the price of oil, that is going to help substantially as well. But nevertheless, it is a real significant financial commitment. Mr. Bachus. All right. Let me ask either one of you, you know, American is a part of the oneworld system, and you have some antitrust immunities. US Air is a part of the Star Alliance and you do not. Would a combination benefit in that regard? Mr. Johnson. Well, the combination, yes, I think it will benefit travelers very extensively. We are a member of the Star Alliance, but we are in some respects a sort of second class member of the Star Alliance. We are not involved in the antitrust immunity joint venture. There is another Star Alliance partner, United Airlines, which is very much bigger than us. By moving to the oneworld alliance, first and foremost, we take the smallest alliance and make it roughly the same size as the other two. We create opportunities for the oneworld partners to serve the East Coast of the United States in ways that they have not been able to before. They have certainly had access to American's hub at JFK and their hub at Miami, but those, as we have said, are kind of special purpose hubs that serve a unique clientele. We have more typical distribution airline hubs in Philadelphia and Charlotte that will benefit oneworld considerably. So we think it is great. Mr. Kennedy? He knows a lot more about the antitrust immunity and that part of the business. Mr. Kennedy. As you may know, it took us about 13 years to get our deal finished and get the antitrust immunity, which is a good thing. We are behind the curve compared to the other---- Mr. Bachus. And I think it is absolutely essential that you have that to be able to compete. That is a given to me. I would think it would be a disadvantage for US Air not to have it now. And this would be an advantage that would level the playing field for you. Mr. Kennedy. Yes, we would agree with that. Mr. Bachus. My last question, I heard you all say that American flies to 130 cities that US Airways does not fly. I think that was the number, was it? Mr. Johnson. Correct. Mr. Bachus. And then US Airways flies to 62 cities that American Airlines does not serve. Mr. Johnson. That is correct. Mr. Bachus. So I would think obviously that you are talking about 192 cities that would be any one who is a customer either American or US Airways would pick up an opportunity to fly on one airline to 192 cities, which would be a tremendous benefit. Mr. Johnson. As we look at the opportunities to develop the network after the merger, Mr. Chairman, those 162 cities-- sorry--192 cities are, you know, the leading candidates for added service. Mr. Bachus. All right. And again, I want to close where I tried to start when I complimented Mr. Kennedy. But US Airways has shown, I think, a lot of innovation. Here at Reagan I have noticed you are using two gates, and you have added probably 30 destinations, 30 or 40 new destinations, you know, all over the east. And I think you have shown of imagination in how you did that. And as I said, I do not fly American that often. But, you know, if I am going to go to Dallas, I am not going to go to Charlotte first. I am going to fly American. And so I do not see how that is a competition. I mean, if I go to Dallas, I am going on American from Birmingham. If I got to D.C., I am not going to go through Dallas. But the service, the reliability on US Air, the customer service is excellent. On the airplane, the on-time performance, and all the airlines. I heard something about baggage, but, my gosh, we have gone to 2 bags out of 1,000 are late. And it used to 5 and 10, so it is an incredible success there. You know, there was a time when, you know, there was a real chance that you did not get your bag, and for the airlines, they have made tremendous advances. And I will say this. All the information says that airline tickets have not kept pace with inflation. I mean, it is one of the best deals going. I think it is six times less of an increase than oil prices, which is hard to believe when that is one of your main expenses. I do not how you do that other than investors losing $30 billion. Mr. Cohen. Mr. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Bachus. Mr. Mitchell, Professor Sagers, I just wonder, you know, we heard the testimony that there are 192 or whatever cities that are served by American and US Air exclusively, and that, you know, 132 are American. They do not compete, et cetera. And we heard the same thing with Delta-Northwest. Well, Delta- Northwest would be complementary because we do not serve too many routes together. Does this kind of sound like some companies might have got together and cut up the country and determined, you know. When you look at like the statement that none of them have over 25 percent and there are four of them, but they are close to 25 percent and you multiply by 4, and that is 100, does not that sound like somebody is cutting up the pie? Mr. Sagers. Very briefly, there is no reason to suggest that they did this on purpose, that they got together and agreed to do this. This sort of lack of head to head competition, I mean, can be explained to some degree by the lack of a significant number of competitors. It was not a liberal firebrand who first came up with the idea that oligopolies do not compete with each other. It was George Stigler at the University of Chicago. When there are a small number of competitors, it is easier for them to sort of implicitly agree not to compete vigorously head to head. So I do not know that that is exactly why the networks have developed as they are, and there are regulatory issues that have also contributed. But I think it is perfectly reasonable to suspect that that is a contributor to the current lack of overlap. Even if there is one, I do not think there is that big a lack of overlap frankly. And it is reasonable to expect that it will get worse when there are four big ones instead of five. Mr. Cohen. Mr. Mitchell, do you agree or disagree? Mr. Mitchell. With his statement? Mr. Cohen. Well, do you have an opinion on whether or not there was some type of, you know, Pillsbury bakeoff. Mr. Mitchell. You know, the way the hub system in this country developed over time is long and storied. But as soon as it reached a certain point, there were market divisions going on where you stay out of my hub and I will stay out of your hub. I mean, this is as old as deregulation and before. That is why it is so critically important that if we do go to three systems, three network systems, that we have all the consumer protections in place, we have all the transparency in place, because the NDC that I described earlier is the structure around which and through which the markets can be clearly, clearly divided. And that is going to be a problem far worse than a fare increase. Mr. Cohen. What you described really scares me, and it sounds like big brother in a major way. And I understand you have talked to maybe my staff here on the Judiciary Committee about this. Is there legislation that you have suggested or proposed or would propose to counter this? Mr. Mitchell. Well, there is one piece of legislation that I think would be a very important consumer protection, and that would be we have this thing called Federal preemption where all of the consumer protections are consolidated at the DoT. The States have absolutely no authority here, and consumers have no rights at the State level. Now, if you put in legislation that allows every single State to have its own consumer protection rules, you will have a big, expensive patchwork. However, like the energy industry, there is an opportunity to create one set of consumer protections that are enforceable at the state level. That would keep the airlines honest. And as we go down the three network carriers, there is more opportunity to be dismissive of customers, and we see it every day. Mr. Cohen. We look forward to working with you on that. What do you see as the impact of the prior mergers, particularly Delta-Northwest, but also United-Continental, overall on air fare, service quality, and consumer choice? Has it been beneficial or not beneficial? Mr. Mitchell. I think that we have had the great recession, so it is very difficult to understand exactly what went on with pricing. However, I believe that if you look at all the promises, all the expectations, all of the projections, and studies, and analyses, before this merger is approved, there should be a forensic analysis of the outcomes of those two mergers. That is very, very important. Mr. Cohen. Dr. Winston, you used the great recession as a reason why Delta would have cut the Memphis hub down to 40 percent, even though Mr. Anderson said it would not. Atlanta did not suffer. Why did Atlanta escape the great recession? They escaped Sherman. Why did they escape the great recession? They did not escape Sherman, excuse me. Mr. Winston. Traffic. Still a lot of traffic there. Mr. Cohen. Because they routed it from Memphis to Atlanta. That was simple enough. That was not the great recession. That was Anderson's decision. Mr. Winston. The country did not stop flying during the great recession. The country still flew, and it was still flying as it normally does in the big hub areas. I mean, that is something that is sort of overlooked in this is that, again, most of the travel, like 75 percent of it, it is in large hub routes: New York, L.A., Chicago, San Francisco, D.C., New York. You know, you go through those, and you have got most of the travel unfortunately in this country where you have got a lot of competitors. And that is where the airlines want to be. I mean, unfortunately or fortunately, you know, there are other places to go, but it is a much, much smaller part of the system. And it is very vulnerable then to changes to what is going on in the macro economy and so on and so forth. But Atlanta is on the ``good side'' of things. Memphis unfortunately, it is not. Mr. Cohen. But it was not because of the great recession. It was because they chose to divert the traffic. All of my colleagues who flew through Memphis preferred flying through Memphis from Louisiana, Arkansas, Mississippi. Now they have to go through it because they cut out the regional routes. They really eliminated Pinnacle Airlines from coming in to Memphis. Mr. Winston. All else constant, I agree with you. Unfortunately all else is not constant. The airlines have to sort of, you know, route their planes where they are going to be able to maximize traffic. Mr. Cohen. Do you agree that a fortress hub, the old legacy airlines created fortress hubs, and that fortress hubs can keep other carriers out of those markets through pricing strategies? Mr. Winston. What keeps airlines out of other hubs or airports is airport policy, exclusive use gates. You want to improve competition in this industry? Start looking at airports. It is not the airlines, it is the airports, all right? The estimates on the increases in fares due to exclusive use gates are in the billions of dollars, all right? So for the next hearing, can I suggest we explore airport privatization and allow airports to compete, and it could change an awful lot of what is going on in this industry. Mr. Cohen. Well, eventually you will own China to own all of our airports. We are not selling Let me ask this final question. Mr. Kennedy, you plan to keep Mr. Johnson at American Airlines, or your family does. Is that correct? He is going to continue to work for the merged airline? [Laughter.] Mr. Kennedy. Mr. Johnson? Mr. Cohen. Yeah. Mr. Kennedy. I do not know. Do you want to work for the new airline? [Laughter.] Mr. Johnson. I absolutely do. Mr. Cohen. Good, because I do not want to waste ribs on him if he is not going to stay with the airline. [Laughter.] And you come, too. And Elvis is living in Memphis, so there will be plenty of people still wanting to come there. Thank you. Mr. Johnson. I will look forward to that, sir. Mr. Bachus. The CEOs started together at American Airlines. Mr. Johnson. They did. Mr. Kennedy. They did, yes. Mr. Bachus. I would say this is the close of the hearing, but for the record, Southwest had not gone out of business, so there are four. There will be four networks at least. Some people may wish they had gone out of business. We appreciate your testimony, and I will say for one that this is, as I said before, this is one of the most persuasive arguments from everything I have read for the merger. And as with any merger, there is a chance that there will be some, you know, price increases. But I do not guarantee there are going to be price increases in either respect because they cannot keep flying for what they are doing now. But thank you for your testimony. I think that your next hearing will be in the Senate on the 19th. And hopefully this will prepare you for that, particularly if there is a senator from Memphis or---- [Laughter.] Or Pittsburgh waiting on you over there. Thank you very much for your testimony. Mr. Johnson. Thank you. Voice. Thank you, sir. Mr. Bachus. Without objection, all Members shall have 5 legislative days to submit to the Chair additional written questions for the witnesses, which we will forward and ask the witnesses to as promptly as they can answer to be made a part of the record. Without objection, all Members will have 5 legislative days to submit any additional materials for inclusion in the record. With that, again I thank the witnesses. This hearing is adjourned. [Whereupon, at 12:27 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X ---------- Material Submitted for the Hearing Record Material submitted by the Honorable Steve Cohen, a Representative in Congress from the State of Tennessee, and Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Regulatory Reform, Commercial and Antitrust Law [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]